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Show references:

https://litlablondon.wixsite.com/lit-laboratory

https://www.instagram.com/litlablondon/

https://www.threads.net/@litlablondon

https://www.linkedin.com/company/litlablondon/

https://www.facebook.com/people/The-Lit-Lab/100090991921959/

Abi Fafolu has a Master’s degree in Bioengineering from Imperial College, and over 7 years’ experience in public engagement with science. She spent her early career in science engagement, including on the Science Desk of The Guardian Observer and promoting open-access publishing at the European Medical Journal and Springer Nature.

Since joining the UK government in 2015, she’s worked in strategy, policy and programmes across four government departments including the Office of the Government’s Chief Scientific Advisor, Lord Patrick Valance, upholding the role of science and evidence in decision making, and promoting developments in science as a Press Officer to the UK Science Minister. Abi is currently a government policy and strategy maker, and runs the Lit Laboratory (Lab), a "Science and Sip” experience reconnecting underrepresented audiences aged 21 to 40 with science.

Transcription: 

Paul Marden:  Welcome to Skip the Queue. A podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. 

Paul Marden:  In today’s episode I’m joined by Abi Fafolu, Founder of The Lit Lab. Abi has a Master’s degree in Bioengineering from Imperial College, and over 7 years’ experience in public engagement with science.

Since joining the UK government in 2015, she’s worked in strategy, policy and programmes across four government departments. She currently a government policy and strategy maker, and runs the Lit Laboratory, a "Science and Sip” experience reconnecting underrepresented audiences aged 21 to 40 with science.

Unfortunately the internet wasn’t kind to us when we recorded this conversation, and so the audio quality isn’t great, but the conversation definitely was.

Paul Marden:Welcome, Abi. Welcome to Skip the Queue.

Abi Fafolu: Thanks, Paul. Thanks for having me. 

Paul Marden: Lovely to have you. Today's a little bit weird because we're recording this just before Christmas, but it's not actually going to go out until the new year. So what I'm going to say is happy New Year to you. I hope you've had a lovely Christmas, but the reality is we haven't had it yet. So strange. 

Abi Fafolu: Thank you and likewise. 

Paul Marden:So we always start our interviews with some icebreaker questions which you're never prepared for. So here goes nothing. I've got a couple for you. I think they're quite nice ones actually. What's your go to coffee order when you go to a coffee shop of your choice? 

Abi Fafolu: Embarrassingly, I saw a skit about this recently where I thought that I had a unique choice, but clearly I've been very moth by the Internet. It is a skinny flat white and the skit that I saw actually was people ordering hot chocolate, which has gone extinct in coffee shops. I think there were a few people doing kind of hot chocolate watching. They were seeing where the people would order hot chocolates and have the binoculars out to watch those people as they made that rare order in the shop. But no, mine is very common. It's a skinny flat white. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So mine is just a normal straight up flat white. No nonsense, no fuss, just give me coffee. I just want a nice coffee. My daughter, her order, she's only 11, but she's taken to iced hot chocolate. But what do you call it? Is it iced chocolate like an iced coffee or is it iced hot chocolate? I always stumble over the order and it's never up on the menu. So I always feel a bit awkward asking for whatever it is that she wants. 

Abi Fafolu: I like that. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. Okay, next one. What animal do you think best represents your personality? 

Abi Fafolu: Oh, gosh, I'm probably like a reliable owl or something like that. Yeah. Kind of cosy in my tree when I feel like it, being a bit nosy and flying out to have a look at what's going on. 

Paul Marden: And every now and again savage on little animals. 

Abi Fafolu: Oh. I mean, maybe a bit of that, probably. But yeah, I think something like that. 

Paul Marden: Okay. I think mine would have to be one of those, one of those dogs that is really annoying and full of energy because I'm just, I'm always at like full power. I'm one of two extremes. I'm going full at it. Yeah, I'm just zonked out, shattered at the end. Yeah. 

Abi Fafolu: Okay. 

Paul Marden: So I'd probably be like a springer spaniel where loads of walking is necessary to get rid of all the energy. Otherwise I'll be really annoyed.

Abi Fafolu: Got you. A little dog who doesn't know that they're little and springs out into the world. 

Paul Marden:I'm sure there's something Freudian about that. I'm not sure. So we are talking a little bit about your project called the Lit Lab today which as listeners will know I always have a little chat with people before we do the interview and you know, I'm really interested in this concept, the tagline that you talked about which was the idea of getting adults to drink in a Science lab. We first met at the Association of Science and Discovery Centres and you know, we had a lovely conversation whilst were at the ASDC conference and I found out a little bit more about Lit Lab. But I think before we get to that point let's just talk a little bit about you and your background. So tell us about you. Tell us about your background and maybe a little bit about day job. 

Abi Fafolu: Yes, of course. So I am a Scientist by training. I have a Master's degree in Bioengineering from Imperial College and about 7 years experience in public engagement with Science. So that has looked like working on the Science desk of the observer newspaper, publishing medical research at Spring and Nature, working with the Chief Scientific Advisor and in government and with the Science Minister as well doing kind of comms and press releases. At the moment I work in strategies by working thinking about where my organisation wants to get to and how we do that. And for me I think it probably brings together a lot of the skills and interests I have. 

Abi Fafolu: It's really about kind of seeing that bigger picture and wondering how things come together and wondering what things will be different and kind of looking at the evidence and friends and things that are going on that help to paint a picture actually of kind of what the options are and gives you a sense of what's possible. So I think there's a thread really through my kind of career history which is a lot about being nosy and having that kind of owl sand view of the world. And yeah, I think my kind of interest and passion in and Science has also kind of given me a lot as well in the subject and things that have piqued my interest. 

Paul Marden: I think it's such an interesting opportunity for you to being in public policy and Science within government over the last few years. It's a really interesting perspective and it's the kind of career that no kid at school would ever dream is a career. Yeah. You know, kids at school can imagine being a chemist or a biologist, they can relate to that. But the idea that Science exists at the heart of government and influences everything the government does is not something that your average kid would think about doing. So how do you end up falling into a role like that? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, well, I mean, I suppose my reflection on what you've just said is sort of. So I think for me, you know, I'm currently the only person in my network who has a background in Science, so I didn't really have a clear picture of what it would look like to be a Lab Scientist. You know, you do those practicals at school, you meet teachers and, you know, lab assistants who are, you know, models of that for you. But I didn't know anyone that did that sort of work and I wasn't sure if I was good at it. I just knew that I enjoyed it. 

Abi Fafolu: And I think when I stumbled across the idea that actually there's a whole strand of Science that's about communicating with people, what's going on, about bridging that gap, really, between the doing and the using of Science, that, for me, opened up a whole new world. And a lot of the kind of journey I suppose I've been on in my career is thinking about how to really help people see the impact of the Science in their everyday life. So I think, you know, in publishing, you're at the forefront of all the developments, you see everything that's going on and it's really interesting. But the average person on the street, you know, has no idea how to apply bioengineering techniques that are, you know, novel and coming out of the lab for their everyday life. 

Abi Fafolu: But then when we have a situation like Covid, where we're starting to look for novel ways to make vaccines, you know, that's the sort of application, I suppose, of the work that people are doing and the interest that drives them. So for me, I think following that curiosity into this kind of world of Science engagement has been a bit of a journey. 

Paul Marden: So that leads nicely to the association of Science and Discovery Centres, how we met at their conference. There was a lot of talk at the conference, wasn't there, about public engagement? How do we enrich people's lives with Science and help people to feel that Science is part of their them and that they can influence the Science decision making and the direction that Science takes over the next decades. You're a trustee of ASDC, so what does that involve? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, you've said it really. But ASDC's mission is absolutely that, to make Science accessible and inclusive for more people and to be seen as a valuable part of everyday life. So their role broadly is to kind of bring together and support Science engagement centres, discovery centres and other spaces like that together. And I know you've had probably doing a wonderful job of explaining what ASDC does and the value it brings. I won't go too much into that, but as a trustee, I suppose the core of that role is to give support and challenge to the CEO. I suppose you think of it as, you know, a CEO doesn't really have colleagues or peers and so, you know, we're head trusted advisors in her, in this case. Shaaron ASDC. 

Abi Fafolu: We are the people that help the sense tech decisions and make sure the organisation is living up to its purpose. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. So that's a little bit of background. Let's talk about the Lit Lab. Explain to our listeners who know nothing about the Lit Lab. What is it? Let's start with the broad picture of what it does. 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, yeah, sure. So the Lit Lab is the UK's first Science and bit. It is a laboratory or Science themed social event where people do fun homestyle Science experiments, make drinks and take part in kind of friendly challenges. It's a social event that is something I do alongside my day job, as I mentioned. And so it runs quarterly at the moment. But essentially people arrive or kind of pop up Science lab, usually in the basement of a bar or a pub. We've done bigger venues like box parking spaces like that as well. But when they arrive they will find kind of their own lab coat and goggles waiting for them. They might get a drink at the bar while they settle in and then we have a host and lab assistant who will walk them through three experiments and two games. 

Abi Fafolu: So we always start with a drink, we make a drink. We call that our kind of molecular mythology series. So anything from kind of dry ice cocktails, cool kind of layered drinks and then we end with an explosion. So yeah, some of our more popular ones tend to be ones that involve a bit of cleanup at the end. So that's kind of the model for the event and it's really about helping adults to reconnect with Science and have a good time doing it. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. So you're taking this out into pubs and bars. It sounds like a Science centre in the back of a van or something. So what sort of kit are you taking with you into the event spaces? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, I mean you're not far off with the kind of back of a van analogy. I have a garage full of labware.  But my neighbours always look at me a bit suspiciously when I start to pile up my pipettes and bits of lab coats and that sort of thing. 

Paul Marden: Awkward conversations with the neighbours as they're watching what you're taking out the garage. 

Abi Fafolu: I mean, if I suddenly see flashing lights at my door, I'll probably have a sense and someone's got the wrong end of the stick. But no, we, as I said, you know, kind of a small pop up and so really it's a startup and it's got all of the kind of all that comes with that. So, you know, storing lots of kit in my garage means that the event is intimate because there's only so much, you know, test tubes and beepers and chronicle class I can fit in one space. And then we're on the day, kind of a group of lab assistants and me who will set up the stations for guests. So, you know, for different experiments where we're really trying to replicate, you know, the type of materials and tools that you would use to explore the same sort of things. 

Abi Fafolu: So one of the things that we do in the lab is DNA extraction with home style ingredients, things that you can find in your skin do with skids. But we're using, you know, conical glass and pipettes and syringes so that we're really being accurate with our measurements and people have that chance to get stuck in. 

Abi Fafolu: But we don't do any tutorials. It's not, it's not a lesson. It's really for people to get hands on and try things out for themselves. So we give them a QR code that they scan for instructions and it will tell them kind of what the stats are. But you can take that all either, you know, you've got all this in front of you and if you want to mix some things together and see how it goes, then that's the, you know, that's the spirit of Science. They're more than happy for people to do that too. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. So where did the idea come from? How did, how did you come up with the idea for the lit lab? 

Abi Fafolu: So it's like a lot of people thinking about kind of, you know, what they want to do with themselves and kind of what skills they have and things they're passionate about. Particularly kind of post lockdown where, you know, you had a lot of time to reflect and think about whether you were making the most of, you know, your skills and abilities. I was seeing a lot of kind of social events come out that were particularly focused around sort of activities. People, I think, wanting a bit more purpose as well when they do leave the house, because that was a luxury. We didn't take for granted that when we step out, we're spending time and that means so much. So a lot of activities that people were doing were things like pains and sips. 

Abi Fafolu: So this is the model, really, that I've reprised, where people buy tickets to an event and they create art and have drinks and really, it's a model that's really growing globally. So I think that the market in America is in the millions, if not billions, as a kind of global event concept, and definitely picking up here as well, but you see it kind of taking off in different formats. So there are pottery and sips and D Day and sips and all sorts of things like this. And so for me, I kind of. I looked at that and I thought, I think I should do something like this, too. And so I spoke to kind of friends and family and I said, I kind of wanted to try out this thing. I think I could make something similar here. 

Abi Fafolu: And so I got together a group of friends at my mum's church hall, bought some lab coats from Amazon and spent absolutely ages writing loads of Excel sheets about the experiments that we could do and what I need to buy to kind of get that together, and had them for far too long for an evening after work, doing all sorts of great experiments. And they loved it. 

Abi Fafolu: They thought it was. It was great and really fun. And so, yeah, it kind of took off from there. I thought, you know, this maybe might be something that we can bring to more people. And so since then, with, I think, about 300 guests, we've got, I think, sort of a thousand or so followers on social media. We've been in timeout London and Secret London magazines and that sort of thing. So, yeah, I think it's reaching some of the right people, but I think you could do more. 

Paul Marden: So for me, I think there's something about it that really attracts me. I'm an extroverted introvert, so I like to be around other people, but it can be challenging going into a new social situation. For me, I might not feel comfortable. What makes me feel comfortable is being in the context of having a shared mission with people. 

Paul Marden: So the idea of, you know, having these experiments to conduct with people, there's something to focus on rather than just the people that are around you. And you know, I need to speak to everybody. I need to be the life and soul of the party. No, no, I'm focusing on this thing. And the social element of just being with other people happens around you when it's done at its best because it's not taking all your conscious effort. Your conscious effort is focused on this thing that's in front of you. You and the rest of it is just blossoming around you. 

Abi Fafolu: So yeah, no, absolutely. I think the other part of that is that you're in a room with people with similar interests. Right. You're creating community. There are people there that are really excited and curious about kind of rekindling that passion that they had for Science or that interest that they had. And so there's a real energy of people kind of wanting to get stuck in and being excited kind of for every thing that we bring out. And yeah, it absolutely is, you know, part of my plan for it to be able to build a bigger community around it. And we have some of that online. 

Abi Fafolu: So there's a lab Patreon site where we share Science news, blogs about kind of running a pop up Science lab, you know, behind the scenes and really helping people to reconnect with Science, even if they're not in that space with people, but also just to find that community with that said interest. 

Paul Marden: So you come up with these spreadsheets at the beginning. You tracked all your mates in a church hall for the first evening. Was there a lot of experimentation involved in. I'm a meta level here. Yeah, experimentation around the experiments that you want to run. Were there some that you did that just weren't successful? 

Abi Fafolu: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I do have a mega spreadsheet of kind of experiments like I could do a lot of the ones with fior. I've had to rule out the various disappointingly. But we'll see how we can get around that in future. But no, absolutely, there's the constraints of, you know, the idea of this is that a lot of the Science is home style and you could absolutely kind of go home and replicate that. One of the things that we do online is created tutorial videos used to try some of the experiments from the lab. And so what I don't want is to have to find kind of lab grade chemicals because that's not homestyle Science. 

Paul Marden: No. 

Abi Fafolu: And so I really want it to be accessible in the truest sense. And so that's a, you know, a philtre for me when it comes to thinking about what sorts of things we could do as much as possible as well. You know, having experiments that have real world kind of application or implication. I talked about the kind of DNA one, you know, the method that we use for that at home is really similar to what we do in the lab. It just has, you know, different types of reagents, you know, more specialised or more tailored to doing that. But yeah, I think being able to really kind of illustrate kind of core concepts in Science as well as do them with materials and things like that are accessible is a strong philtre for me. 

Abi Fafolu: But thinking about some of the ones, I suppose that haven't made the cut. And as I say that actually I should say that we do have a kind of core set of experiments as well as seasonal ones. So the most recent event was Halloween and we started by making blood transfusion cocktails. So we had blood bags with grenadine in them. We did a kind of gruesome DNA extraction with picking livers, we made potions that are wrapped to finish off the session, that sort of thing. But yeah, a lot of the ones that are kind of more temperamental, I guess, and not so resilient for people who are not going to read the instructions are the types that don't quite make it in. And they can be things like, you know, dry ice doesn't last forever, it eliminates, it evaporates quite quickly. 

Abi Fafolu: And so there are things like that where, you know, over the course of the kind of two hour event maybe is not the best type of experiment to try and do because by the end of it some people will still have dry ice and some people won't. And I'm not, you know, I'm not in a degree where I can, you know, just turn the corner and get some more. So yeah, some of them are just kind of practical, why they don't quite make the part. But yeah, definitely a longer list of things I try with more opportunities to do. 

Paul Marden: I talked a little bit about why it piques my interest. But who is the audience that you're seeing coming along to events? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, so I think both from kind of attendance at events and you know, the feedback that we get and the kind of data from that, but also our insights from social media and things like that. We can see that the audience is largely women. So about 70% women age between 21, maybe 45. Interest really in Science culture, trying new things, meeting new people. And I'm especially interested actually as well in targeting minority audiences. So the women, but also black and ethnic minority people who are underrepresented in Science, who maybe, you know, don't have access to Science and that sort of discourse and really just to change perceptions about who Science is for. So I think the idea that you can do Science outside of a classic setting, outside of a lab, outside of research, outside of academia is really important to me. 

Abi Fafolu: So, yeah, I think it's a broad audience and I think Science is absolutely for everyone. But part of my mission is also to make sure we're reaching some audiences who aren't really. 

Paul Marden: That's the audience. Are you doing, is this a solo effort for you or have you got teams of lab rats that come along and help you? 

Abi Fafolu: And so I'm a solo entrepreneur, I am the founder, one of those hats. But on the day of the event I do have a team, we call them lab assistants rather than lab rats. But I do have a team of people who are amazing at preparing the experiments. People so they can get stuck right in troubleshooting any kind of niggling issues, you know, with the experiments on the day and making sure that people kind of know what they're doing. And for me, actually it's been really important to open those opportunities up to up and coming Science communicators. So, you know, people who want that experience really in practising and engaging the public directly with Science. 

Abi Fafolu: And again, you know, there's nothing quite like this at the moment, so I'm hoping, you know, that's a good opportunity for them as well to kind of pick off those sorts of careers. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, it's quite nerve wracking, isn't it, doing what you're doing, stepping into a sector where. Or creating your own segment. Yes, you're taking inspiration from things that already exist, but nobody else is doing this. And you've got. It's at the core of being entrepreneurial, isn't it? You've got to test the market and experiment to see where it goes. But that can be quite nerve wracking. So having that team of lab assistants, those people that are helping you on the day, you know, it's invaluable because you can't have eyes in the back of your head when you're at the event, it's really, you know, it's really hard, I guess, to be able to run one of these events, keep it all flowing, solve the problems and be a gracious host at the same time. 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, absolutely. And I should say, actually I'm not the host, so I am very much kind of in the background for the events themselves, they are hosted by. I have a few different people that kind of tap into this role, but essentially they're presenters and people whose job it is that have that sort of MC role to keep the crowd engaged and enthused. And again, like I said, they don't teach, they don't set out. Kind of made the story of what we're going to do, but they encourage and, you know, prod and make jokes with the group and that sort of thing. One of the elements of it that I think works well as well is that we try to introduce kind of competition. 

Abi Fafolu: So if we have, you know, two or three tables, depending where we're doing it, you know, each table is a group that competes and they choose a table name which is made up of a range of things that might be for that month, elements in the periodic table, their favourite horror movie and their favourite brand of alcohol. So they get kind of wacky table names and earn points as they go along. And we actually, for most events, compete for spots or fleets. So if you're a winning table, you'll find a rap of spots coming your way. So, yeah, it's definitely a social event I think we major on as well as Science in our event. 

Paul Marden: Of course, it does sound a little bit like a kind of classic Science communicator role at the Science Centre, doesn't it? You know, that job to engage people in Science. But you're hiding. You're hiding the vegetables, aren't you? They're learning a little bit about Science, but at the same time they're enjoying themselves and you've got to major on the enjoyment and engagement, otherwise they're never going to learn something. 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that. And we provide some of that background to people that want it. So, you know, in the same way that you can scan the QR and find out what the instructions are, you can also scan and find out kind of what the Science is behind what you're doing. Because I think, you know, if people are particularly curious, you want to make sure that they have the opportunity to follow up. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So you're taking this out to pubs and bars. Have you got future plans to try other types of spaces or to take this to other places? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, so I know that you we’re alluding to as well, the kind of theme of this. So, you know, absolutely, we're doing Science, but this is. This is culture, this is creativity, this is all of the things that, you know, make Science real and enjoyable for people as well. So Absolutely. I see it as a kind of creative cultural endeavour. I've done a few events in sort of different contexts. I, for example, was just running a winter fair event called University of East London. And that, I think, gives us the opportunity to have people kind of zip in and out from what we're doing and see it in the context of other things as well. And I think this brings to the forefront even more that, you know, this is something that's for entertainment. 

Abi Fafolu: You know, like, there's education here, that this is an entertainment concept. So, yeah, I think it really has a place in lots of different spaces and I think there's lots of opportunity, really, to see where it can go. Yeah, absolutely. Would love to work with different types of venues, so universities. But also there are these other cultural institutes, talking museums and places like that, where I think there could be a really nice partnership opportunities there. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. There's an element of. And it was something that somebody said at the ASDC conference. It was one of the questions that got asked at the Skip the Queue episode was all about getting the A into STEAM. So getting. Getting the Art into STEAM. Subjects. There's an element of if you could take this into a bar and a pub, you can take this into art institutions, to galleries, to museums, other cultural institutions. All these sorts of institutions are looking for ways in which they can extend their reach, that they can. Can serve different audiences, generate revenue for themselves at times when the institution is quiet. And this is just a lovely concept to be able to pop the things in the back of the van and take it to institutions and help them to do those things. 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, thank you. And I think, just to add to that, I think we're definitely seeing a rise of that with the kind of museum lakes. It's a theme across lots of different venues completely. And. And it's absolutely that. It's about the kind of adult market and recognising, I think that, you know, just because you're an adult doesn't mean that you can't still have fun with the things that you were interested in as a younger person or, you know, hobbies that you don't have the opportunity to do. So, yeah, Science is a hobby, definitely something I'm all the way behind. And I think the kind of adult space is a really good opportunity for that. Yeah. 

Paul Marden: Oh, completely. I get to masquerade behind my daughter. I'm taking her to Science centres for her benefit. But the reality is I have a whale of a time and I love going to the Science central, Science museum And I'd feel a bit odd going as a single bloke wandering around some of these institutions on your own during the daytime. It might not feel quite right. But a Science late event, I could totally, you know, I've done enough ASDC events at Science centres where we've had the evening meal in a Science centre in the evening and it's been delightful to wander around these places in the evenings. There's a huge amount of opportunity at your local Science centre to find things that engage adults as well as kids. 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, absolutely. 

Paul Marden: What are your goals? Where do you want to take the Lit Lab for the future? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah. So, I mean, again, this concept of kind of popping things in the van and kind of rocking up wherever is definitely a perk of the current model, but it still sort of means that at the moment, you know, the little ad is in London big as I am, you know, I don't want that to be a kind of barrier for it and I definitely don't want it to stop the right people from reaching it. So for me it would absolutely be that to be able to reach more parts of the country and particularly, you know, like the cities of culture. I'm thinking that, you know, the Bristols and the Manchesters and the Bradfords next year as the 2025 or this year. 

Paul Marden: That was slickly done. Well done. 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, I think, you know, being able to meet people where they're already exploring these interests and then hopefully see that Philtre out as well would be wonderful. 

Paul Marden: Okay, so is that partnership model or is that a kind of a franchise model or are you open to conversations with people about how you could deliver this? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, no, absolutely open. I think that's, you know, a perk of being. Being the first, isn't it? But, yeah, all things are on the table and I think that's a wonderful thing. You know, I'm probably still in the. It's my baby face. I can imagine. I can imagine that there's probably a bit of hand holding that would. Would come before any. But yes, I think absolutely open. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, that's interesting. Well, look, it's been lovely talking to you, finding out a little bit more about you and finding out more about The Lit Lab. I think it's such a wonderful concept. I feel a team rubber cheese evening event coming along soon where I think we bring the team and we do a little bit of Science together. I think that might be a nice idea. 

Abi Fafolu: Idea more than welcome. I'd love that. 

Paul Marden: So we always ask our guests to give us a book recommendation. So Abi, what's your recommendation for the listeners today? 

Abi Fafolu: Yeah, I had a good think about this and you know, in all that I've talked about, I think there's probably also something about reclaiming this kind of nerd label. I think my recommendation is probably going to fall in that space, but I'm happy with that and I own it. But mine is in the genre of sort of mythology, magical realism, fantasy, and I really love Greek mythology. But I'm actually also getting into African mythology, of which there are loads of kind of classic but also kind of up and coming writers. And one that I'm really enjoying now is called She Would Be King by Wayétu Moore. And it's a story of basically the kind of creation of a new space in Liberia during the kind of transatlantic slave trade. 

Abi Fafolu: And it basically imagines the stories of the three different people in a sort of anthology way, who get powers as they go through the real horrible and inhumane kind of trials of, you know, being part of that. So from America to Jamaica to West Africa, you know, these three people go through different experiences of that and they all get powers that help them to cope with that. And it draws on the types of powers that you might see in African mythology. So it's a really beautiful book and a really inspiring and kind of educational one too. I think there's a lot of, you know, factor accuracy in terms of, you know, what happened and the types of experiences that people accounted. Yeah, that's one of my definite recommendations and I'm actually rereading it at the moment. 

Paul Marden: Wowzers, listeners. So if you'd like a copy of the book that Abi recommends, normally I'd say get over to X and repost the show announcement on X, but you can do that on bluesky now. So go find us. We are @skipthequeue.fm on Bluesky and do whatever you do to repost a notice on bluesky and say I want Abby's book. And the first person that does that will get a copy of Abi's book sent to them as a gift from us. And I'll be very excited because we'll have more followers on Bluesky. X is a bit of a dumpster fire now, so we are moving rapidly to Bluesky. Abi, it has been delightful to meet you. 

Paul Marden: If listeners would like to find out more about the Lit Lab, all of your links and your socials and the website will all be posted in the show notes. So listeners, you'll be able to go and find out about where the next Lit Lab events are all on Abi's website. It's been lovely to meet you. Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast. Happy New Year. 

Abi Fafolu: Thank you so much. Paul. Thanks so much for having me. And Happy New Year to you too. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 11th December 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Our guests:

https://www.wethecurious.org/ 
Chris Dunford, Sustainability and Science Director at We The Curious 

As Sustainability and Science Director, Chris Dunford has been responsible for Sustainable Futures at We The Curious since 2011. During that time, he has introduced a sector-leading programme of environmental best practice, innovative technologies, and organisational change. In 2019, We The Curious became the first science centre in the world to declare a climate emergency and pledged to meet ambitious decarbonisation targets in this decade, implemented alongside climate change adaptation.

Beyond We The Curious, Chris has held positions as Head of Environmental Sustainability at UKRI, Elected Director of the Bristol Green Capital Partnership, Mentor of Arizona State University’s ‘Sustainability in Science Museums’ Global Fellowship, and Chair of the ASDC Decarbonisation Group. Chris’ background is in science communication and stand-up comedy.

https://w5online.co.uk/

Victoria Denoon is the Head of Visitor Experience at W5 Science and Discovery Centre.

Victoria joined W5 Science and Discovery Centre in March 2020 and has responsibility for all aspects of W5’s operations. She is also currently an ASDC Trustee. Prior to joining the team at W5, she worked in Higher Education in the United States for 15 years with a particular interest in advancing the careers of women in STEM fields.

http://www.aberdeensciencecentre.org/

Bryan Snelling is the CEO of Aberdeen Science Centre. 

He’s been in this position for five years having started in November 2019. Bryan has worked in the visitor attraction sector for 11 years having previously enjoyed 6 years as CEO at The Gordon Highlanders Museum in Aberdeen. Bryan has worked in many sectors during his career including education having worked across the UK in Portsmouth and London before moving to Aberdeen. Bryan is originally from South Wales and in his spare time he enjoys playing the guitar, playing cricket and reading.

https://www.sciencecentres.org.uk/

Shaaron Leverment is the Chief Executive at The Association for Science and Discovery Centres.

Shaaron is the CEO of ASDC and has over 20 years' experience working in science engagement and education. She stands for the value of science centres and museums for social good, as community assets that are accessible and relevant for a more diverse public.

Shaaron joined ASDC in 2016 as the Deputy CEO. She is also the co-founding director of 'Explorer Dome' that engages over 70,000 children and adults every year. She leads on a number of national and international programmes and collaborations that aim to improve the relevance and accessibility of STEM for a more diverse public. As a past president of the British Association of Planetaria, she is also currently the EDI co-chair of the International Planetarium Society. Shaaron is mum to two boys, and the owner of a large hairy Golden Retriever.

She is part of varied networks, working with schools, universities, science centres, museums and volunteer groups, as well as nation-wide professional associations and Government agencies. She has created and directed national and international (EU) science engagement programmes, including leading the Horizon 2020 Hypatia programme in the UK to support greater gender inclusion in informal science education, and is the driving force behind Our Space Our Future, supporting participative practice in space science outreach.

Through work with ASDC, Ecsite and other international partnerships, Shaaron is known for her work to support greater equity and inclusion within our STEM education and engagement organisations, with the ambition of embedding more equitable practice for transformative organisation-wide change.

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. A podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. 

Now, today's episode is a special one. A few days ago I was at the Association for Science and Discovery Centre's annual conference recording in front of a live studio audience. Joined by a panel of the great and good from the Science and Discovery Centre community, Victoria Denoon, Head of Visitor Experience at W5 Science and Discovery Centre. Bryan Snelling, the CEO of Aberdeen Science Centre. Chris Dunford at ASDC Sustainability Group Chair and Sustainability Director at We the Curious. And Shaaron Leverment, the CEO of ASDC. Now, I have to say, this was a bit of a proof of concept for us and we had a few technical gremlins, but whilst the sound quality isn't brilliant, the conversations absolutely were. 

Paul Marden: So without further ado, let's go over to that recording I took a couple of days ago. Why don't we start with our icebreaker questions? So this is a tradition for the podcast and nobody has been prepared for this. So, Victoria, you'll like this one. It's a really easy one. Bauble or custard cream? 

Victoria Denoon: You said it was going to be easy. 

Paul Marden: Oh, no, I could give you my answer straight away. It's a firmly held belief for me. Of course, it's the only answer to that question. Bryan, you have to live in a sitcom for the rest of your life. Which one? And why? 

Bryan Snelling: Oh God, can I have the ball? But do you know what? The only one that sprung to mind was Only Fools and Horses. I think, you know, a bit of dodgy dealing here and there. Can't go wrong with that, I think. Yeah, Wheeler dealing, you know what I mean? 

Paul Marden: One day Wanda's There'll be millionaires. Chris, play 10 instruments or speak 10 languages. 

Chris Dunford: Oh, horrible. I'm going to go for 10 instruments because I feel as if Google can do the rest. But 10 instruments? I can finally record my own albums. 

Paul Marden: And Shaaron, last but not least, control time like Hermione or Fly Like Harry. 

Shaaron Leverment: Oh, God, fly Like Harry, 

Paul Marden: Really? 

Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, yeah, 100%. 

Paul Marden: You don't need a time turner to be in every session. That wasn't the latest question at all. Okay, let's get cracking then with the main interview. Shaaron, first question is for you. This year and next sees the 25th anniversary of the millennium funded science centers which saw a huge amount of investments into science communic engagement across the country. What did that do to shape science in the last quarter of the century? And where do you think it will take us next. 

Shaaron Leverment: Great question. 

Paul Marden: Thank you. 

Shaaron Leverment: Like 25 years ago, as I mentioned in my talk, even no one really knew what science communication was. You know, now obviously there's masters in it, there's people who are doing PhDs in it and I think it's actually becoming a very important part of policy and recognised as strategically important in terms of the way in which nation engages with science. And I do believe that's because we have these amazing places across the U.K. now. Let's be honest, like a lot of them existed beforehand. There was at least 6, including Satrasphere, which is now Aberdeen Science Centre, which existed before the Millennium centers. And then suddenly all of these centers were. But now we've got 60, nearly 70 across the entire places. The Lost Shore is just open, which is all about surf and science. 

Shaaron Leverment: I think science, referring to one of our keynotes, is really becoming part of culture. And then we're no longer looking at sort of museums and centres as like cathedrals of science. We're looking at them as real kind of cultural and community assets. So that's where I think. I think that's where the trajectory is going for the next 25 years. I'll just wrap that into the end of that. 

Paul Marden: This is a follow up for that and really anyone can join in on this one. Thinking more about where we go in the next 25 years, let's talk about funding streams because we had a big lump of money back just before the millennium projects get them kicked off and we're unlikely to see that level of lottery funding again. So how can centres, after all, they are visitor attractions and charities in many cases. How do they diversify their income streams? 

Victoria Denoon: I think there's two things about that and one's really important from the ASDC perspective because there's what we can do individually, but there's also what we can do collectively as a network. So you know, we are looking at that particularly from the Millennium Science Centre perspective. 

Victoria Denoon: And obviously that's a bigger voice if we do that together. So that's really important to have those conversations. At W5 we do that by increasing what we do for corporate hire. We do a W5 late program, which is an 18 plus evenings for adults to come down. And because we're going to be 25 years old next year, there's that nostalgia that really helps sell that. So we're looking at key events to drive revenue across the year to really get more people in our door who wouldn't come to us otherwise. 

Bryan Snelling: Yeah, I think it's obviously very important to diversify our income. But what we're talking about here, in terms of the money we got in 2019, you're only really going to get that sort of money again from very large institutions or government. And I think whether you're trying to persuade an individual to come and visit your science centre or local, national, devolved governments to give you money, it's all about the message that you're sending. It's about the science centres are really important part, and we were talking about it earlier on, the culture of what we're doing here. So whether you're just one individual or a multinational that has big bucks, you've really got to try and make them understand that. 

Chris Dunford: I think it's. Yeah, I think it's almost as well as diversifying to new funders, it's also diversifying what the existing funders will be happy to fund, because I think the funders understandably want the shiny new exhibition, the lovely new outreach in the brand advance, the school workshop photo opportunity. And those are all good things. And we couldn't do those things without the funders. But they'll need to. As these buildings getting older, they need to recognize at some point that those things can take place in the building where the roof leaks and it closes in the summer because the heat wave and the cooling system can't keep up. So I think if you're saying to the funders, yes, you can support this workshop, but we will need some contribution towards the rooms that the workshop take place in. 

Chris Dunford: So I think it'd be helpful to understand that. And to do that, we just need to make the case better to our value. So it's not just this extra news thing, but day to day supporting us to literally keep the lights on and keep the rain out of the roof. 

Bryan Snelling: Can I just add, I think there's also an important thing here about mission drift. We should be true to our own mission. We should know where we're going, our direction, and not have as much as possible. Because I understand it's a balance. Not have as much as possible. The funder direct what we do. It should be the other way around, or at least. And one of the big words of this conference that I've heard is collaboration. And we shouldn't just be doing it all the money, we should be actually understanding this is what we should be doing and this is how we're going. You should be coming on board with us. 

Paul Marden: You risk the tail wagging the dog, don't you? If all you do is chase the sources of funding. And you do that in a haphazard way. It's got to follow, as you say, it's got to follow the mission and the core values of the centre. 

Victoria Denoon: And it is a relationship, you know, it's like philanthropy and, you know, universities doing their work with donors. I mean, you really do have to have mutual respect and understanding and be looking for sponsors or funders or partners who have the same mission and values that you do. That conversation becomes a lot easier. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Shaaron, any thoughts? 

Shaaron Leverment: I think I agree with what they're saying. It's really well put. 

Paul Marden: This is an audience question and this is from Kate Allen from Purple Stars. And she asked me, is the A in steam in cooperate and why it's not a binary question. 

Chris Dunford: Right. 

Bryan Snelling: Look it up. 

Victoria Denoon: Yes. 

Bryan Snelling: Did you see the inflection in that? 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. 

Bryan Snelling: I think it's a two way process. I think that the A is very important. And again, I'm gonna repeat myself, but I think it's been a big part of what the conference has been about and it's been about collaboration. Yes, it's important, but it's a two way process because it's not all about us incorporating the arts. It's also about the arts incorporating the st, the E and the M and the science elements. So I think it's a two way process at the moment. I feel this is just my own opinion that it's a little bit more give than take. 

Shaaron Leverment: I think there's an interesting, you know, there's an interesting conversation of like, do you need an artist for it to be art? What is art and what is science? You know, and actually, you know, so much of, you know, the engagements that we see involve huge creativity, kids making planets and things like that in science. I do think that we need to use all the tools to get across these massive ideas. And I don't actually even know what science is anyway, so I'm on the back. 

Shaaron Leverment: And I also noticed in Tom Crick, when he was looking at the curriculum, they separate mathematics and numeracy from science and tech, you know, and so in science, tech engineering is often considered the invisible E in stem. Maths is often considered the invisible M in STEM in science and discovery centres, you know, and so the arts as well. I fully believe that we need to be trans and multidisciplinary 100%. But you know, I think it includes, you know, the music and everything. I think includes absolutely everything. So maybe these acronyms, which is not, they're not useful at all. 

Paul Marden: I don't think it helps. One of the things that we talked about when we first. We were spinning ideas around this episode, weren't we? And you talked about the idea that you shocked me, that science matters to me and I care about it. And it's something that I enjoy doing with my family. And to consider that isn't for the government to consider. That's not really part of culture because they're funded quite separately. It offends my roles, I think. 

Shaaron Leverment: But also, you know, it's just another beautiful way of looking at the world. You might look up at a night sky, you know, like Mara or Kilda, like we're hearing by Este. And you might look at it with eyes where you're just wondering at the jewelry of creation or making pictures in the stars. Or you might also be wondering about, well, maybe there's a planet out there. 

Shaaron Leverment: And I think you can look with all eyes and you can. It's all in wonder. And the fact that they are segregated, it comes back to school science, I think. I think actually in the normal world, as human beings, we don't have to separate them, but it's just very hard, especially when these are crazy funding lines. Like Tom mentioned the difference. I did not know that festivals are considered part of culture, but science festivals aren't. It's madness. 

Chris Dunford: It also depends in a way what you're doing. So if you're putting the A into STEAM  because you say that as a society, as a cultural attraction, we want to involve ourselves, then obviously, yes, we don't want to. You know, it's inclusive because as Shaaron said, they can. They bring different things to the table. But if you're putting an A in there because you're saying that art is the same as the others, then they're no different. But that's good. It's good that art and science kind of behave in different ways. So. So they both start with an idea or a question. They can both be kind of curious or stimulated by something. But then whether we do night sky or whatever, the way that art might scrutinise the night sky would be different to the way that science will scrutinise. And that's fine. 

Chris Dunford: They can complement each other. It's not. You need to recognize the differences in those kind of, I don't know, the intellectual disciplines, so they can support each other rather than say, well, artists, science, design. It's not as simple as that. They're different, but that's okay. 

Victoria Denoon: I do think they play a part together in making things more accessible to people. So if you look at major technology companies, they focus just as much on the design and the look of some of their products as they do on the actual technology that goes into them. So there's a lovely added experience there with putting that together. I think it's very important, but for different reasons. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. There's been a lot of talk at the conference about diversity and inclusivity. To a certain extent, inclusion is about understanding who your audience is and understanding what it is that they need. 

Paul Marden: So let's dig into that about your three science centres. What are the customer demographics, what does the audience look like and what areas of diversity and inclusion are important to them? 

Victoria Denoon: Well, I think that assumes we've actually asked our audiences, you know, what is important to them. And I don't, you know, I'd like to sort of throw that over to other representatives for science centres because we have done some of that, but we probably haven't done it enough to be able to actually answer that question. That's something we are really looking at because we have a lot of different information about the demographics, but not really what they want to see us do. So we're looking at different focus groups and how to involve more people in that to get a better picture of that for our particular science centre. 

Bryan Snelling: I think we were very lucky to receive a lot of well enough ISF funding plus local funding to completely overhaul our science centre four years ago. What happened four years ago, it was wonderful. But as Shaaron said, we're actually not a millennium sites and we've been going for 36 years. I think tech request, slightly longer than us, 

Shaaron Leverment: 38.

Bryan Snelling: There we go. But not many longer than us. But over that time we've asked and we found out a lot of information about what our visitors wanted. And similar to what Victoria said, we don't necessarily ask enough. We recognise that's a bad thing. We need and we are putting in place and now to evaluate to get feedback more. But back then were very aware of sort of things that we needed to do. We needed to be wheelchair user friendly. 

Bryan Snelling: So everything is now accessible throughout the science centre. We're one of the lucky places that have a changing places facility which is incredibly good and it's gone down very well. We also have a sensory space which was retrofitted admittedly. But if you look at our feedback on the online, that's gone down fantastically well and it allows some of our neurosensitive visitors just to calm down, go there and just take a moment and then come back and I think the very fact that we're a science centre, it's very hands on, it's very stimulating. 

Bryan Snelling: So having that has been a real wonderful addition to what we've got. And I think we've also got to remember financial inclusion. So a lot of the sort of sponsorship that we look for is to work with in Scotland. It's called simd, the Scottish Index for Multiple Deprivation. 

Chris Dunford: I'm sure there's a similar thing in England, but I want to know what it is. 

Paul Marden: We'll talk about that in a minute. 

Bryan Snelling: But we a lot of again, it's not mission drift when you are also doing it. A lot of our funders want to give us money so we can support those maybe who don't have as much money as the rest of us. So all of these things we've taken into account and parts of what we do at the science centre. 

Chris Dunford: Yeah. I suppose the question ultimately is when we ask our visitors what does inclusion, diversity mean to them, we won't get the answer we need. And that's because if you have a certain demographic who are visiting and you ask them diversity, inclusion, then obviously they will speak from their own life experience. But actually the people need to ask the people who aren't visiting. So in that respect, I mean the things we draw upon, we work closely with things like local council, so we have access to their data of who's living in the city and who's facing areas of deprivation and that kind of thing. 

Chris Dunford: So you can kind of fairly accurately figure out who's around you in your community and who's around you in your community isn't mirroring who's coming through the door and straight away you know where your focus areas are and the reason they might not be visiting, it might be economic, but it could also because there's things that you do unintentionally. It makes it look like you're not for them. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Chris Dunford: So only by engaging with them, seeing you through their eyes, will you understand maybe why you've been doing a thing which wasn't encouraged when they through the door. I suppose the last thing to say on that is often it's very tempting to think the inclusion thing is going to be groups that can't afford to visit and therefore Chapel saying it may be then detracting from the purely commercial enterprise we need to do to keep the buildings open and running. 

Chris Dunford: And for some areas who cannot afford to visit, then yes, that's an important part of what you do. But there could be areas, community who aren't visiting. And they can afford to visit because for some reason you're not currently for them, you can become for them. And you've also opened up a whole other market as well. So whether you're looking at it because you want more visitors financially, or you're looking at it because you want to be able to reach everyone, you need to ask who's in the city, who isn't here currently visiting and can we find out why they're not visiting? And then we just work through those challenge at a time until you hopefully are truly reflecting those around you. 

Paul Marden: I was at a Museum and Heritage Show earlier this year. There was a really interesting talk about inclusivity and making places accessible. And one of the key facts was that people that need an accessible place to visit, if they don't know something is accessible because you haven't communicated it properly, they will assume you are not accessible. And so having the changing places toilet and the sensory room is amazing. But you also have to communicate that to people in order for them to come and feel like it is a place for them. And that's. You're right, it's not about the charitable end of the organisation. It can be just a commercial thing. When you tell that story simply and easily for people, all of a sudden you are not going to market. 

Shaaron Leverment: We're sort of encouraging people. We've got an accessibility conference coming up in May which will be hosted by Winchester. And hopefully between now and then we can really support people with some of these amazing visual stories. Because I think you're absolutely right that you do need to know if it's accessible. You need to know what facilities you need to have those opportunities to know that there's a quiet space and what to expect. And then someone, honestly, if they know what's there and what's not there, then that's enough. 

Paul Marden: I've talked about this example before podcast, but Skipton Town Hall is an amazing example. They've got a museum whose name escapes me, but they won last year's Kids in Museum's Family Friendly award. But they have an amazing page that talks about their accessibilities with photos and videos where you can see the entrance, every entrance to the building and where that entrance will lead you to. It shows you the changing places toilet. You know, they are making it super easy for you to be able to understand that. And it's on your page, but it's a page that's hugely valuable on their website. 

Victoria Denoon: I think just beyond what you can do on your own. Site for that. There are organisations you can work with that tell people the story about what attractions in their area are accessible. So making sure you know who those groups are and working with them to get your story out and how you can support that's really important. 

Paul Marden: I've got Tudor in front of me from Eureka and I know that's something that Eureka has done a lot of is communicating the accessibility of what they deeds the outside world. I'm going to take your Scottish index of multiple deprivation and take that back to the uk. I'm going to talk a little bit about Cambridge Science Centre because they've passed two weeks ago, they've just opened their new building and one of the things that they talked about on the podcast with me was that part of the motivation for locating it on Cambridge Science park was because it is cheap by jail with one of the areas of multiple deprivation within the city. 

Paul Marden: They run youth groups in that area and what they found was that even though these kids are in a youth group associated with the Science centre and they are right next door to the Science park, those kids don't feel that a career in Science in the UK's hotspot for tech is a place where they could end up. 

Paul Marden: They just don't feel like it is of them. So how do we help those kids and families in those areas feel like science centres are for them and a career in the future and in science and tech is an opportunity for them? 

Bryan Snelling: I think when were redesigning the Aberdeen Science Centre, as I said, the only thing that's still there because It's a Category 2 listed building is the outer walls. But what we looked at that time was we said, well, how can we make it relevant to the northeast of Scotland? So we have three zones in the Science Centre which relates to either the up and coming or very much mature economies up there. We have an energy zone, of course we do, but space, you know, Shetland is on our patch, big patch, so is Sutherland and those of you who know Scotland, very big patch. That sort of space is a big part of what's happening up in northeast Scotland, but also life sciences. So we made it relevant so that people on an everyday sort of and kids can sort of relate to things. 

Bryan Snelling: I think we're the only city and people will help me out here and bring me down to size if that's the case. We have hydrogen buses in Aberdeen. I think we're one of the only, let's go like that. One of the only cities that currently do that and they see these things travelling through the city centre every day. But you know, they want to know more about that. So it's about making it relevant, making it day to day obvious that this, you can work in this because actually it's there or it's that or it's yes. The other thing is about showing the other careers that you can link it, you can focusing on space, but there's more than just that. You somebody said, yes, you also need to have a chef in the Antarctica. 

Bryan Snelling: So show them the other careers actually link in with this sort of and just make it relevant. 

Chris Dunford: Yeah, and I think obviously if you've got sections of society where there's young people who feel that science isn't for them, I think the first thing to recognise obviously is that they are in their lives. They're obviously getting messages that are telling them that's the case in the way in which children from other backgrounds are getting messages telling them what science is for them. And you can see that through the lens of the science capital. You can't control all of those, but you can control how you interact with them. Now, obviously what Cambridge did is they were able to physically relocate. Most of us aren't in that position in terms of the whole building, although that reached us the ability to do that on a complete short term basis. 

Chris Dunford: But I think again it's recognising that inclusion work is so much more than just kind of saying, “Hey, we are free. Why don't you come along today and you can visit for free or whatever.” It's the diversity of your staff and that's across the organisation. Because if they visit and they see someone that looks like them and that tells them that it is for them in a way in which it's going to be very difficult to do with the people actually working there don't look like people they would recognise as being in that kind of group in that way. It's about the activities themselves. So again, the ideas of kind of co development. So if you develop activities, rather than guess what you think they would like, just find out what they would like and involve them in those activities. 

Chris Dunford: So inclusion is difficult and it takes a lot of time because you can't just kind of put a sign on the door and say work for you now. You need to change the organisation. So it is enabling them to visit and then to keep that relationship going. That's the other thing that's very difficult. But I think if you did one funded visit and they came once and that was it, that might not be Enough to make them go, “Oh, so I can't be a scientist.” You get some kind of relationship with them going on over time. So yeah, it's a long, drawn out process, which means you need to look very hard at yourself and be prepared and brave to make changes in your own organisation. Because unintentionally you are probably putting some of the barriers there yourselves. 

Shaaron Leverment: I just want to echo that it really is about building those relationships. We ran a program called Explorer Universe across eight centres. And you know, we were all about extra partnerships and being brave and making new engagement to people who would never have thought to come through your doors. And you know, it ended up being like a year long of partnership building and then those relationships and almost all the programs were outreach. Some of them ended up, you know, as a celebratory event coming through the science centre. But it was very much going to where the kids were going to their space, you know, physically and emotionally and mentally, whatever, and working in partnership. So if you don't have the staff that reflect that community, then you can work in partnership and create those moments. 

Shaaron Leverment: And then when they do come to the centre, be there at the front door to welcome them. You know, I know you and it's very much, you know, like an experience floor In North Wales. Were working in a playground, you know, and talking all about them jumping off the playground with like parachutes, talking about friction and stuff like that. And one of the best quotes from that was like, I didn't realise this was science. You're like turning what they are doing and saying that you are a techie, techie person, you are a sciencey person, you are an engineer. That's what it is. 

Shaaron Leverment: You know, it's not saying this is what science is, you know, it's changing the capital that they have already into science capital to know that they are already inherent, as Osley said, inherent sort of scientists anyway. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Shaaron Leverment: So, yeah.

Victoria Denoon: I think science centres are in a really wonderful space here to be able to do that because, you know, we do build relationships with community groups and schools all the time. And research has shown that these young people, why they see themselves in relation to their peers, that will attract them more than anything else into potential careers in science. So having a space where people can come and, you know, we don't tell them, don't touch that, don't do that. 

Victoria Denoon: You know, they can really fully get hands on and engage in things and having that opportunity. We just opened two years ago, our Learning Innovation for Everyone Space. We offer free school programs there, particularly in partnership with Microsoft and do coding workshops and things like that and lots of other activities and you can also do OCN accredited programs with us there. So it's really about getting them together as a group of their peers and showing them what's possible in that space. 

Paul Marden: That's amazing. So I'm a dev by background. Telling the story of Computer Science is not something that you see in every science centre that you go to. The whole kind of the history of computing, it exists in places, there are pockets of it. But it's not something that I want to coding club as well. But how many of my kids could go to a local science centre and feel that what they're doing when they're coding the robot and building some Lego is related to something that they see when they're at the science centre and that there's a mental leap to go from this fun thing that we're doing with this robot to the career that is amazing that I could have in the future. It's really hard. 

Paul Marden: Talking of kids, I'm a trustee at Kids in Museum and we talk a lot about getting the voice of young people who visit attractions and young people, they're worthy, they're in their career and incorporating that into the decision making, strategic direction of museums and science centres. I think it's definitely really important when we talk about climate emergency to get that younger voice in so that trustees don't all look like me. Let's talk a little bit about the youth platform and how you incorporate the youth voice into what you guys do. Who wants to take that one first? I can spot who cracks first. 

Bryan Snelling: Okay. I'm not very good at this, am I? You are very good. No, but I'm actually quite proud of what we do at Aberdeen. We about a year and a bit ago introduced a STEM youth ball and we're very pleased with that. We actually work with a local festival so it's ourselves and Aberdeen Tech Fest that jointly I say support, but actually they support us. The youth board, it's made up of secondary school kids, young people and last year was a pilot year and it went very well. We're now looking at developing it further. But what they do is they look at what they want to do, they work out what they want to do within a board situation. 

Bryan Snelling: They've got all the usual bits, chair and the secretary, but they work out that they want to deliver this program and then they'll go away, work together on the delivery of that program. They'll also work out the marketing side of things. They'll also do all of that. But I also, and my counterpart with TechFest also bring our ideas and say what do you think about this? And they give us a very. 

Paul Marden: Take some of them and rubbish a few I guess.

Bryan Snelling: That's what it's for. 

Paul Marden: Exactly. 

Bryan Snelling: I mean, let's get out of the way in a safe space before we then go ahead and spend money on this thing. 

Paul Marden: The most brutal focus could possibly bring together. 

Bryan Snelling: But we're very pleased with that. The other thing that we're currently looking at doing is working with local university, Robert Goldman University, especially the architecture school, to redevelop our outer area, the garden. It was the only area that wasn't developed when we did inside. And we undertook a number of brainstorming sessions with the youngsters and I mean your 5 to 12 year olds to get their input. And we did that a number of ways, remember drawing or talking or writing, whatever. And that was really interesting. We'd obviously, as the adults had done a similar thing but what they brought was a completely different point of view and it's wonderful. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. Victoria, you can't not look at teacher. It's only going to encourage me to. 

Victoria Denoon: No, I think you know, to what Bryan was saying there. We haven't started yet but we're looking at this idea of creating a Y suite, you know, which is our youth suite, which would be young people that will come in and kind of meet once a quarter to help us with some of those decisions. Bryan was talking about Inspiring Science Fund. We also did a huge renovation at W5 as a result of that and that involved a lot of consultation with young people, with teachers, et cetera. And we do a lot of youth led programs but we're looking at really how do we engage that in this more strategic direction going forward. 

Paul Marden: I think it's hugely valuable, isn't it? When you take it from a consultation point to something that is actually helping to drive the strategy of the organisation. It's transformational. Sharoon, do you have any thoughts about that? 

Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, I mean I sort of see it from a bird's eye view really, you know. But you know we have our Youth Voice Award because last year our volunteers award was won by. Part of our volunteers award was won by Winchester young group of environmental activists that were really doing great things down at Winchester Science Centre and influencing one seekers charity. And anyone who was at dinner last night, you might have seen the video from Zed King who has done so much work supporting Centre for Life and making massive changes there and not just there, like actually across the network. We are. So we've got this Youth Voice award as one of the only awards that we give because it is so important. We are all about. Not all about, but we are a lot about young people. 

Shaaron Leverment: So they need to have voice but it's very difficult to be sure how to do that and to make sure that we're not putting too much pressure. I mean here at this conference you can. There we've got some young people coming in showing their bio robots. We've got. Obviously we had the Esports award last night and our next keynote we've got two younger panel members to do a discussion about eco anxiety and how that feels for them to influence the way in which we think about our climate engagement from the voices of people who are experiencing it and experiencing this massive grief and anxiety about their own futures. So yeah, there's a lot of work going on obviously over in Armagh as well, you know, especially with autistic families and you know, I think it's. 

Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, it's a growing area and we're putting a lot of effort into encouraging like hearing these stories and different things and you know, I know we the curated. Well, with your authority sharing, I might just throw that over to you. I mean I think that's a great piece of work. 

Chris Dunford: Yeah. On the climate side especially. One thing we've done in the past is work with Bristol City Council, Youth Council, I think I might say most councils will have something like this because they then feed into the UK lean Parliament. I think that's really useful for two reasons. Firstly, because it gives them a space when you talk about climate issues. But secondly, it's helping them to understand the process of democracy, which young people's possibly more important now than ever. I think that's really key because I think what often happens, especially at events like cop, is that inside the room you've got the politicians and decision makers who are struggling with this really difficult challenge of how do we decarbonise and knowing there isn't an easy thing to fix it. 

Chris Dunford: It's going to be a lot of trailblazers, compromise, a lot of hard work outside where you've got the young people kind of screaming desperately do something, finally find the solution and then have these two different worlds. So I think if you could bring those together to bring the youth Voice into those conversations. What are the trade offs? What are the decisions? Because the consequence of decisions they inherit not us. But also it's useful for young people because it helps them understand that there isn't an easy solution and yes, there's going on strike and it's making the message clear, but there's getting into discussion of what are the trade offs, what are the compromises, and that's how a democracy works. I think that's really useful. 

Chris Dunford: But the other thing I'd say is if you're going to engage with young people on this and also be prepared for the fact that they're clear, they know what they want and they want the allies to take action. So if you say to them, great, there's time to change that, you're creating a youth board so you can learn about climate change, they'll say, yes, but what are you doing to reduce your carbon emissions? So we're doing this group and we're going to get your views on that. Thank you, that's fine. What are you doing to reduce your carbon emissions? So if you're going to enter into this space, they know what they want from us. They want to take action to create deep, radical and rapid decarbonisation. 

Chris Dunford: So be prepared for that question because they will ask it and it's the right to ask it. We need to do stuff as well as having board. At the same time, you've got to be taking the action to show that you're copying the agency, what they want. 

Shaaron Leverment: Have you seen the recent DCMS call as well? I mean, it's obviously strategically important at government as well. So all funders and DCMS in particular are making an election in this. So, yeah, leading the way. 

Paul Marden: A beautiful segue to my next question, which is what, Chris, this one's for you really is what are ASDC members doing ahead of national targets to reach net zero? 

Chris Dunford: Yeah. So it's probably worth just causing phone. So, in terms of the national target, for anyone who isn't aware, net zero for the UK is 2050. And net zero essentially means that your carbon emissions are down to zero or they're not zero, then you're offsetting what emissions you are creating. So the balance of the atmosphere is 2 0. And it's really hard. And the reason it's really hard, whether you're a government or an organisation, is you're following the greenhouse gas protocol, which means it's across all three scopes, which essentially means it's the stuff you expect. 

Chris Dunford: So it's the energy from the grid, it's your fuel and vehicles, it's burning gas in your home or places where, but it's also emissions from all the stuff that you buy and the investments from your bank and your pensions and it's the emissions from your business who travel to visit you. It's huge. It's very complex. So it's difficult. That's essentially what it means, the claim in terms of what sciences are doing. So it's a mixed back. There's plenty of science centers who still don't have a specific claim decarbonisation target, whether that be net zero or 2050 or sooner. So that's one issue I think we need to. Those who have done that piece of work have to work those who haven't to support them, enable them and encourage them to create a space where they can do. 

Chris Dunford: Because your Internet provider probably has a Net Zero pledge on their website, your supermarket certainly does. Your local council will, your university. So with science centres, it might seem strange that we're actually behind those players rather than leaving it. And of those that do have targets, there's probably about seven science centres in the network. This is student, big museum. So in terms of. In terms of the main science centres and then Tampa Gardens and museums, if you include them, there's probably about 11 organisations who have a kind of a decarbonisation net zero net neutral aimed before 2015. They're mostly around 2030. And again, that's really hard. And those organisations are now figuring out what that means and just how difficult that is. 

Chris Dunford: There is also even project who have boldly gone for a net positive to say they'll actually be removing more carbon than releasing by 2030. But it's really hard. And the reason it's hard for science centres is we're not Marks and Spencers. We can't just hire a stable team overnight and throw money at this problem. So we're renting some organisations who are tight on time and money who now to take on this huge challenge. That doesn't excuse us from the challenge. So there's no easy solution on the fact that we have to put resource into this. And I think that's why there aren't more Net Zero aims on websites for the centres at the moment. But I think we can get there. We need to recognise it's hard. 

Chris Dunford: And finally, if you are doing lots of engagement, as I said with schools, then again you need to be backing this up with some kind of Net zero. So it's a mixed bag of the network. There's probably about 10 or so that have specific net zero aims and they're mostly around 2030, 2040. But my prediction is in the coming years, those organisations are going to make some really hard choices and actually say how they're going to do that, because we know from experience it's really difficult. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing it. It means you have to push even harder than you were before. 

Paul Marden: Thank you. 

Bryan Snelling: Can I add something? 

Paul Marden: Of course. 

Bryan Snelling: I think decarbonisation is an important message, full stop, especially in Aberdeen, for obvious reasons. I hope we feel that we have an important duty almost to the visitors to the northeast of Scotland and beyond. Because I think how can we talk the talk about decarbonisation if we don't walk the walk? So there's an internal thing, which notwithstanding how difficult it is, we're just starting down that route. We've had an energy audit done of ourselves. We're now in the process of working out what that roadmap is, or maybe it should be a cycle path road towards net zero, but we need to work that out. But on the other side, we're also tasked with telling people, this is what you should be doing. This is the energy transition. 

Bryan Snelling: This is how you renewable energy in the future. So how can you do both? How can you do one without the other one? I mean, and I think we just need to be aware of that. And I think as the future goes back to the very first question about what's happening in the future, that's all big part of what we need to be looking at.

Paul Marden: Conference is all about shaping future science together. What's your take home message from the different talks that you've been to, or possibly because we've not finished the conference yet that you're looking forward to. What's the standout moment? I know. So I would say for me, the standout moment was last night's awards. I mean, if you weren't overtaken by Zed's video, if you weren't moved by Hamish talking about. And for me, what they both demonstrated is that volunteering and engagement is a conversation. It's a two way street, isn't it? Because they weren't just there as a resource doing things, they were getting something from the relationship and giving back to the sense, etc. At the same time. For me, that bit was the most powerful. 

Shaaron Leverment: Yeah. And I think actually, you know, there's a lot of emotion there, you know, and it's incredible to someone stand up and say science and you saved my life. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Shaaron Leverment: You know, I think it was just incredible and very brave. And I think that kind of bringing that emotion into science, it's really important and remembering the people, even people. I think there's been quite a few messages about, you know, the safe spaces that we provide and that interaction with people and that genuine understanding. I think I'm really excited about. We're no longer sort of let science speak for itself and we're not going. 

Shaaron Leverment: You know, I think people are socially connecting and using emotion a lot more because first we feel right, first we feel and that is what our inclusive outcomes are all about. That it's what makes a difference for someone who is disengaged and doesn't feel that science and technology could be for them to feeling that maybe there's a place they need to feel they belong. So I'm really excited about that aspect of it. I also agree with everything that the elders are about. 

Bryan Snelling: Really. 

Shaaron Leverment: Yeah. 

Chris Dunford: I think several things yesterday for me resonated with the thing which Stephen Breslin said at the very start, which is that we come to these conferences anxious and slightly overwhelmed by the challenges we're facing and leaves feeling energized and positive with at least some of the solutions. And I think that's. That's a similar pattern that I experienced with these conferences. And I think through that lens I've been listening to all the challenges yesterday. And it's just our job is hard and potentially getting harder and as it gets harder, it's more important to society than ever. And I think that's the main thing I'm taking away. 

Chris Dunford: And I don't just mean things like the inclusion work and the decarbonisation work which we've spoken about during this session, but even things like one of the sessions that really stuck me yesterday was where the Science museum were talking in the lightning talks about their new AI exhibition and the fact that when all the many centers open they could have exhibits that explained Google of motion by pendulums and spinning things. A physical thing. And now we're having to have conversations about AI where there is no physical thing you can hold in your hands. 

Chris Dunford: There's a historical artefact, it's a circuit board doesn't tell you anything about what circuit board really does in terms of how it impacts society and how are we going to do science communication, science engagement around these challenging issues like AI which are then mounted up with all these kind of social problems with them, which again, the laws of motion that we come with. So, so I suppose I'm going away with that is the fact that our creativity is going to be tested more than before and our ingenuity and our ability to collaborate beyond our initial partners. So, yeah, for me, weirdly, it's about the science communication side and things like AI are going to make that really challenging. And how are we going to do that? Any of the answers other than the fact that we know we're not doing it alone, we're doing it as a network. And that's obviously big talk. 

Victoria Denoon: Yeah, I think it's the same thing. That remark by Stephen really is something that stuck with me because I did come here as well, thinking about the challenges we're facing, not just as a Science and Discovery centre, but also politically at the moment and just how pessimistic you can be about things. And really being in this conference with all of these amazing people makes you feel more optimistic about things and I think that's just really powerful and it carries you through. So for me, that's. And I think some of the conversations that have been happening here, I feel like since last year we've made a huge jump in terms of where the impact of our network is going with other people. And, you know, Tom's talk this morning really brought that home a little bit as well. So I'm feeling very optimistic. 

Paul Marden: Thank you. We always end our interviews with a book recommendation, which can be personal or professional. So, Victoria, do you want to share yours with everyone? 

Victoria Denoon: Well, I think when were talking about this, it was like, what's your favourite book? And for me, my favourite book is actually Pride and Prejudice. It's a book I would read over and could read over and over again. Jane Austen's musings. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. Bryan. 

Bryan Snelling: You know, this is the most difficult question that you're going to be putting to us. I've read, you know, fiction most of my life. I mean, you can't. I've always got a book, always looking at a book. So I don't actually have favourites. Why is it favourites? What I can say is my most recent book that I've read was the Thursday we’re at the Club by Rich Lawson, which is quite nice. The most profound one was actually 1984. I read that when I was about 18 and I thought, wow. And that was really quite interesting. Followed swiftly by Animal Farm, of course. 

Paul Marden: So that's three recommendations bankrupt me over. Chris. 

Chris Dunford: So I've gone for War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells. I'm a big fan of, like, old sci fi books. It's different to modern sci fi. Sci fi books like Jules Byrne and H.G. Wells will just ramble on pages about scientific theories at the time. Things they read in nature. So it's genuinely kind of science fiction. But War of the Royals because it's just. It scares me every time I read it. Like it still scares me. Absolutely. And I quite enjoy that. And I don't know why. And there's something about the complete, you know, civilisation. Actually some shouldn't put on this thread too hard, but there's something fascinating about that. Kind of, as he describes it, the liquefaction of society is everything kind of falls apart and every time I pick it up, I'm terrified and I pick it up again, I'm still terrible. 

Paul Marden: Shaaron, lastly, yours. 

Shaaron Leverment: I had forgotten this is a question. 

Paul Marden: Chris had three books, so you can choose. 

Shaaron Leverment: I'll go for in my. In my head I go for I just off the cup. The Martian is great. When it's got a little bit tiresome with the whole potatoes, improve it. But it is a brilliant. Yeah, it's great. 

Paul Marden: We are done. If you enjoyed today's episode, please like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Thank you to my guests Victoria, Bryan, Chris and Shaaron, and my amazing ASDC Live studio audience. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! 

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Oz Austwick and Sinead Kimberley

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

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Show references:

Download The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - https://rubbercheese.com/survey/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sineadwaldron/

Sinead Kimberley is the Senior Client Success Manager of Rubber Cheese and has a background in digital marketing, engagement software and all things client satisfaction. She guides clients through the various stages of their project, ensuring they have the information they need when they need it, as well as being the link between our developers and clients.

https://rubbercheese.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/ 

Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII’s personal man at arms. Outside of work he’s a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids.

Transcription: 

Oz Austwick: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Oz Ostwick. In this episode, Sinead and I are going to talk a lot about the third Annual Rubber Cheese website Visitor Attraction survey. So, firstly, I just want to say, hi, Sinead. 

Sinead Kimberley: Hello. 

Oz Austwick: Sinead's been struggling a bit with a cold and I dragged her onto the podcast anyway, so I should apologise to her, but she'll be great. 

Sinead Kimberley: She always is, always fun to join. 

Oz Austwick: I'm gonna start by asking you a couple of questions. We're not gonna do the icebreaker thing that we do with guests, but when Paul and I host an episode, we like to talk a little bit about where we've been, what attractions we've been to. So how about you? Where have you been recently? 

Sinead Kimberley: I've been to Stockholm, in Sweden, actually. That is not an attraction in itself, although it's beautiful there. But we did try to go to a few attractions, so we tried to go to the Paradox Illusion Museum. We very excitedly got to the front, asked for two tickets and they said they're completely fully booked for the entire day, and we couldn't get in, which was surprising. I kind of didn't really factor in that it would be a numbered visit thing. I thought, “just, it's open, come and have a wonder.” But I guess the structure of it is you have to have so many people in a room to be able to enjoy the paradox of it. So it made sense in the end. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I guess. It's interesting, isn't it, that wasn't clear? 

Sinead Kimberley: Our research was essentially looking. We knew we wanted to go there. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. 

Sinead Kimberley: What's the address? And can Google get me there? That was my research. 

Oz Austwick: Okay, so really can't really blame them for that, then. 

Sinead Kimberley: No, we cannot blame them. But we had a similar thing as well where were also trying to go to an escape room because were there to visit friends. So we didn't want to go to all the museums we've kind of already seen, although they have some incredible ones there, the Vassa being one of them. Very similar, I think, to Mary Rose Trust. They've got a massive ship that sunk pretty soon after coming out of the bay and the King wasn't very happy about it, but we thought, we'll go and just try and escape room, just to kill a couple of hours. And I looked for every escape room I could find in Stockholm that we could physically get to. And then once you go into one of those sites, you then pick the Room, then the day, then the time. 

Sinead Kimberley: And you have to go room to room in each of these websites to see if they've got any availability on the day you want and time you want. And I really wished. And maybe this is a thing that exists that I just don't know about, but I wish there was one place I could go and just say, I want to go to an escape room in Stockholm on this day, roughly this time. What is available? Because I gave up after about half an hour of searching through every single one. Different rooms, different places, it was impossible. So we didn't go in the end. 

Oz Austwick: That's quite interesting because I suspect that trying to book for half an hour is probably quite a lot. I guess most people probably wouldn't last that long. But not being able to search for something by availability seems a bit odd that you have to say, I want this specific room. And then you have to go into it and say, “Oh no, that's not available.” And then you have to go and find another one and go into. Yeah, it would be really nice to be able to look at something like that and just say what's actually available. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. And I feel like I'm not that big on the. I don't have that many brainwaves, so I imagine someone's already done this. If anyone knows and can point me to it.

Oz Austwick: Certainly interesting. And maybe there's a lesson there for people who are listening that are working in attractions that can. If somebody wants to come, can they search by when it's available or do you have to pick a day and look to see if there are any times free? Maybe that's something we'll talk about because we're going to talk about our report and I think maybe that booking process is something that might crop up again. So did you actually make it anywhere at all or did you just give up and not visit anywhere? 

Sinead Kimberley: We went to a chess bar in the end, so they had a very swanky, very kind of trendy feeling Chess bar. And apparently some very famous chess player was going to go there and have a tournament against somebody from YouTube. I'm not in with all the YouTube stuff, so I don't know who it was, but my husband and friend played chess for about three hours and me and another friend drank wine instead of any visitor attraction. 

Oz Austwick: Sounds like a pretty ideal attraction to me. It's interesting, is it? Because there are definitely quite a lot of Scandinavian, maybe Swedish chess players. And where's Magnus Carlsen from? Is he Swedish? I know he's Scandinavian. But when he's. He's the best, he's the best player out there at the moment. But I know there are a number of quite famous YouTubers. Anna Kramlin is. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yes, that was the one. 

Oz Austwick: Was it? Okay. Oh, she's. She's brilliant. 

Sinead Kimberley: I think she was going to be there. 

Oz Austwick: She's got an amazing YouTube channel where she just travels around and plays people at chess. She goes to America and plays chess hustlers in the park and she's an international master, I think. But her parents are both grandmasters at chess and every now and again her mum just comes along and she's this lovely softly spoken lady who just sits down and utterly destroys people at chess. Brilliant watching. So, yeah, I very much doubt Anna Cramling is watching this or listening to this podcast, but if she is, good for you, Anna. Keep it up. Yeah. So where have I been? It's a bit of a cop out because this is something we do quite often, but we live a few minutes drive from Petworth, so we quite often go and park up and go for a walk around the park. 

Oz Austwick: And we say park, it's thousands and thousands of acres and it's absolutely lovely. It's a bit like stepping into Pride and Prejudice and going for a walk around and seeing the herds of deer just grazing in the landscape. And it's a Capability Brown thing. And you see the house on the hill overlooking, it's absolutely beautiful. We go there a lot. The kids love running around and my teenage daughter, it's a bit special to her because she's got a very serious boyfriend at the moment. They've been together for almost a year and that was where they went for their first date. They went for a walk around the grounds at Petworth and it was absolutely delightful. All very Jane Austen. 

Sinead Kimberley: That's a lovely first date. 

Oz Austwick: Well, this isn't it, you know, I mean, at that point I'm going, “Well, yeah, he's okay, he can stay, we like him”. And he came up and introduced himself and shook my hand and I'm just like, wow, okay. Is this what dating's like now? Because it's. I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that back in my day. But yeah, it's a lovely place. Can't recommend it enough. You need to either be a member of the National Trust or pay for your parking, but there's usually a coffee van in the car park so you can have a nice coffee and walk around a lovely estate. So it's pretty much perfect for me. We should probably talk about the elephant in the room, or rather the elephant that isn't in the room. And I'm sure I'll get in trouble for calling Paul an elephant. 

Oz Austwick: But he's not here today. He's off at the Historic Building Parks and Gardens event, which is an absolutely new one for me. I've not even heard of it before. So we hope you're having a lovely time, Paul, and thanks for letting us loose with the podcast. So what else is going on in the world of visitor attractions at the moment? 

Sinead Kimberley: ASDC, is it coming up? 

Oz Austwick: ASDC, yes, the Association of Science and Discovery Centres have their big annual event soon and there's something really special happening at it this year, which is we're going to record an episode of Skip the Queue live on stage. We're not going to broadcast it live because there's a distinct possibility we'll mess it up and we'll have to do bits again. But we are going to record it and it's going to be really interesting. And that one's going to be hosted by Paul, which is probably why he's letting us loose without him. And, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be quite interesting to get out and about because I've been out to record on site and nobody else has managed it yet. So this will be Paul's first on site recording. 

Sinead Kimberley: That'd be very cool and hopefully I'll be able to join you for the event at least, as the audience.

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I certainly hope. Yeah, that would be great. So if you're listening to this and you've got a venue and you'd like us to be there, please do let us know. We'd love to come and see you. I had an amazing time recording at Trentham Monkey Forest, so if you've got monkeys, then let me know. I'd love to come and meet your monkeys too. But it's probably fair to say that the. The annual survey and the report has taken up a lot of our time recently and we're actually able to talk about it now because it's been released. We know that some of you came along to our launch webinar, but a lot of you didn't. So we'd like to talk about some of the really interesting things that are in the survey. 

Oz Austwick: I guess it's probably reasonable to start off by talking a little bit about how it's different this year compared with previous years. And there are a few things we've done differently. There are a few subjects that we've brought into the survey to ask people about that weren't in there before. So the use of AI and sustainability. I know we're going to talk a little bit more about sustainability later. That's something that Sinead's quite focused on. But one of the major things is that we've introduced some multi site operators into the database of attractions that we use to produce the report and I think that's probably changed the way the report looks a little bit, wouldn't you agree? 

Sinead Kimberley: Definitely. I think it's compared to the reports before there are sections of it that maybe look a bit more complex because you've got different tabs you can move between and you can see the data both with all of the data we have. So with the multi sites and without. So if you are maybe a smaller attraction the without might be more interesting for you to have a look and benchmark yourself against. But I think it's really interesting to see how very different the results are. If you look at our normal kind of attractions that we get survey results from compared to when you look at the multi sites. In nearly every single one, the biggest tech within whichever category is usually completely different between the two different kind of data sets, which I thought was really interesting. There's very little crossover really. 

Oz Austwick: It really isn't it? And the question you need to start thinking about at that point is the tech different because multi sites need different tech or is it different because multi sites actually have the financial ability to be able to say this the absolute best. So that's the one we're going to use. And I don't think we can say for sure one way or another at that point. We can say that the biggest, most successful venues tend to use these things but we're not really in a position where we're able to say and this is why. So I think that's quite interesting. I think there were a lot of discussions when were trying to produce the report about how we use this data because there are definitely different types of multisites out there. 

Oz Austwick: There are those relatively small local groups where you get maybe two or three local museums that all used to be run by the same council and now are run by a charity. But then you've got some of the multi sites that have some of the biggest and most famous venues in the country that all have their own websites but the decisions are clearly made at a group level and then you've got the massive multi site operators with hundreds and hundreds of venues where they're all done through the same site, the same website. And the question is, then, is that, say, 600 venues or is that one website? And that makes it a really difficult thing because if we look at it and say it's 600 or so venues, then that's 600 venues, all using the same technology. 

Oz Austwick: But if it's one website, that's only one website using that technology, and that hugely changes the way that it's reported. So I think you're absolutely right to look at it, look at both and see how it applies to you as an attraction. And if you're unsure, drop us a line, talk to Sinead, talk to me, talk to Paul. We've got a huge amount of information and we've put what we think is the most important things out there in the report. But there's a lot more we can talk to you about and we'd love to, because, you know, we're kind of sick of talking to each other about it, wouldn't you say? 

Sinead Kimberley: Not just yet. Not sick of you just yet, but I would say when it comes to, as well, coming to talk to us, I think one of the areas that, I mean, I can be useful in and that I'd love to have conversations with my clients in the ones I'm not already talking to about it, is sustainability. And this is one where Oz is probably sick of hearing me talk about constantly. But I think the thing that I find most interesting, if you look at sustainability on its own, you can maybe see it as something we should be doing, but is very hard and, like, how do you do it? Well. But the report looks into how it links really well with performance as well. 

Sinead Kimberley: A lot of what makes something sustainable also makes it highly performing load faster, and that ultimately gives you a better user experience on the website. So for those who are maybe kind of grappling with how do we make something sustainable in an industry that can find this very difficult because of the nature of what you're doing? Looking at it more from that performance perspective, I think helps maybe give it a little bit momentum, a bit more enthusiasm towards doing something that will have material benefits for you later on, as well as making you a bit more kind of conscious and environmental in the website. So I thought putting those two things together was really interesting in the report. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point, isn't it? It's not just about ticking a box for sustainability. ”Oh, look at us. Isn't our website brilliant?” And it feels a bit like just patting yourself on the back for the sake of it. Almost everything you do to make your website more sustainable is making you more successful and your site more efficient and hopefully making you more money as well. So I think that's definitely something to bear in mind. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. And I think the activities that you can do to make it more sustainable and therefore more highly performing and a better user experience, they're reasonably simple. So we have a lot of our customers at the moment are going through that process with us of our team, reviewing the site, checking where can we make those quick wins to boost you up the kind of score. And so in the report, we talk about the average attraction being at F, which is the worst score along the whole score grade, that kind of data shows us. And it doesn't take a whole heap of stuff to get you even just above that average line. But mostly kind of C, B, A, they are all achievable to get to those kind of grades with things that you would. 

Sinead Kimberley: If you went to look at your site after we have made changes to make it more sustainable, you'll notice it loads a little quicker, hopefully, but you won't really notice anything else that's changed. So a lot of it is the smart little tech things you can do in the background that, you know, we didn't know were possible, maybe when the sites were built originally or, you know, we've just not heard about, we're focusing on something else perhaps. So I think that was. I hope people can see how easy it can be to just get both of those quick wins, the sustainability and the performance, without changing too much. You know, the design team are not going to be unhappy after we've kind of had a go with that. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, and I think it's, it's probably worth saying that one of the reasons that I think sustainability has been a conversation that people have backed away from having is that it feels like it's going to be really complicated. And the reason it feels like it's really complicated is because it's quite technical. But if you're talking to someone like you and the team of developers that you work with, then this is really simple stuff for them. Being able to look at a list of things that are causing your site to not rank very well, sustainability wise. They can say, “Oh, well, we can do those three really quickly. That's only half a day's work to get that fixed.” And that can have a huge tangible difference to the site, definitely. 

Oz Austwick: Okay, so moving on from sustainability to very much a related subject is the booking process. We've talked a bit about trying to make the site more efficient and make it load faster and therefore make it more sustainable. That does feel very much like it's connected to the booking process, because one of the things that seems fairly clear, looking at the report, is that people are still expecting their visitors to go through a lot of steps and that hasn't really changed year on year. We've said before that if you reduce the steps in your booking process, it will make you more money. And we can see that really clearly from the reports we've done in the past. And yet the average is still really high. 

Oz Austwick: It's seven steps to be able to book a ticket and that feels like we're making people do a lot. 

Sinead Kimberley: I think if you look at other industries as well, they have really run down that avenue of reducing the steps. If you look at Amazon, it's scarily easy to go, just “Buy now”. Admittedly, they've taken details earlier on in the process that are slightly different, but any new site that I go on to where I'm trying to buy something or I'm trying to kind of plan something, even if I can do everything on my phone and even when it comes to, say, Apple Pay, if I can just do two clicks and my payments done, I don't need to put in, you know, manually enter my details and things like that. I feel more happy after that experience. I don't feel like I've had to go and find my purse and get my card. 

Sinead Kimberley: I haven't had to go and remember whatever detail it is, or checked, you know, my husband's details, if he's coming along with me or anything. And the easier you can make it, I think the better. I know we've got a few colleagues who have children and Steve in particular will tell me how on a Thursday evening, he sat on the sofa, maybe after putting the kids to bed. After dinner, you're a bit tired, you've had a full day of work, you want to just go, “Oh, I need to do something on the weekend”. You pick up your phone and find where you want to go, quickly book it, get back to the TV or whatever other relaxing activity you were doing. And the quicker you can do that, the more it takes stress out of what is potentially a stressful thing as well. 

Sinead Kimberley: Not even thinking about when it comes to obviously, the more sales that you get because you're then somewhere they think of as easy to go to, easy to book. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. 

Sinead Kimberley: So, yeah, I think the survey highlighted that really, really well. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah. I couldn't agree more. And I love this idea of Apple Pay or Google Pay being more used because A, that allows you, as an attraction, to get that data without having to specifically ask for it. But also as a visitor, the amount of times I've got my phone out and I've literally, I've been out and about, I've been doing something, maybe I've taken one of the kids to a swimming lesson or, you know, I'm sitting at the back of a concert waiting for my daughter to come on and do her bit and I think, “Oh, I'll just book that thing.” And it says, “Oh, you've got to put your car details in.” 

Oz Austwick: I've lost count of the amount of times I've been stood in a car park with my phone balanced on the back of the car trying to find a credit card so I can. I don't want to do that. 

Sinead Kimberley: How many times have you put the phone down? You've not even carried on that booking. Because I'll do it later, if later comes.

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I mean, if later comes, definitely. Sometimes, without a doubt, I would much rather be able to just say Google Pay and give it my fingerprint and let it do it for me. And I think the question we need to be asking ourselves as an industry as a whole is why are we asking for this information? And there's a really interesting thing in the survey which I think highlights that we're asking for information from people that A, we don't need. And you and I, we both know this. We talk to people who book things and it annoys them all the time. And people are asking for information so they can market to us and get us to come back. They can upsell, they can sell more things to us. 

Oz Austwick: But we've got some really clear data looking at where traffic to your website comes from. And the absolute lowest source of traffic to a website to a visitor attraction website comes from email marketing. So we're literally putting people off buying tickets to a venue to get information from them so that we can market to them and get them to come to the venue again. And the numbers just don't hold up.

Sinead Kimberley: Don't make sense, no. For the bigger venues, at least hundreds of thousands of pounds, you could get more in revenue if you were to remove some steps. And yet we hold on to those steps for potentially email marketing, which is not where you're getting your hundreds of thousands of pounds back from. In the end, it doesn't add up, but I think it maybe goes into what we spoke about a while ago, where you do what you've always done, you don't think about the why. Why are you asking for the information? Why are we doing this? Why? You know, is email marketing still the big thing that we are trying to do all the time? 

Oz Austwick: Yes. Yeah. There's a huge amount of perceived wisdom within the industry. And even now, going to events and listening to people talk about how you should market your venue, and it's all really arbitrary. It's like, this is clearly what you should do, this is how you should do it. And there's no justification for that. There's no reason behind it. There's no proof that if you do it this way, this is what will happen. And I think that's one of the things that the survey now, in year three, is becoming more and more able to show you that these things are changing. We've got actual trends, we've got figures, we've got data that is indisputable, and we can see how that data is changing over time. 

Oz Austwick: So we can look at the fact that in year one, when we knew how many people have tested their site for mobile optimisation. That doesn't tell us an awful lot. It just tells us that some sites have and some sites haven't. But now we've got three years worth of data, we can see that this is still a really important thing and it's getting more important every year. And so we know for a fact that if you aren't testing your site for mobile usage, then you're probably suffering, I think. 

Sinead Kimberley: Was it 80% of visits to the site are on mobile? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. 

Sinead Kimberley: So if you've never tested that. 

Oz Austwick: But yeah, it's something ridiculous, like less than 20% of sites have actually bothered to test the mobile version of their site to see if it works the way they think it works. And that's an easy win for you. Get a small group of people together, get it tested, run them through the process and find out if it's. If it's good or not, and look at the steps. And I think it's probably worth mentioning that while we're talking about taking steps out of your booking process, what we're not looking at doing is putting all of those complex decisions into a fewer number of steps. So we don't go from having seven steps to book a ticket to three steps to book a ticket, but those three steps are now infinitely more complex. 

Oz Austwick: We're actually saying, look at the questions you're asking and say, do you actually need to ask Them? Yeah, like you said, you know, if I want a toaster, I can buy a toaster from Amazon in maybe two clicks and if I buy it from someone else that accepts Google Pay, maybe it's three clicks. But I'd really like to be able to take my kids out for the day without having to go through seven or eight different clicks and then fill in different ages for all of the kids and, you know, putting everybody's names and I just, I'm not interested. I'd much rather.

Sinead Kimberley: If they welcome me at the door by saying, hello, Sinead, it's nice to see you. Is this Adam who you mentioned? Carry on. But I don't think that's in many attractions. 

Oz Austwick: No. And I would much rather get an email with my tickets in it with a little link in the email saying, we'd love to know a little bit more about you. If you fill in this form, we'll give you a free coffee. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: And then I'm like, oh, great. Yeah, okay. And I've already got my tickets. It's not going to put me off. But I think that does link beautifully into the subject of discounts because that's something we asked about and we featured in the report and I think it's quite a surprising result, wouldn't you say? 

Sinead Kimberley: Definitely. 

Oz Austwick: We know for certain that discounts make more sales.

Sinead Kimberley: By quite a substantial margin. It's kind of double the number of sales if you have discounts versus if you don't. 

Oz Austwick: And I know there are a lot of people out there, people running attractions, people who are involved in the industry, who feel really passionately that you shouldn't offer discounts, that it devalues what you're offering. And yet the numbers don't necessarily agree with that. 

Sinead Kimberley: No. And I think I can understand having a concern that when we're saying how the data from our survey revealed that. I think it was maybe might have to correct me on these later, But I think 2.9 thousand sales via discounts versus 1.2000 sales or something. So it's quite a substantial difference if you are offering a discount versus not. And then my worry if I kind of take myself out of my role is if the price per ticket is a lot lower, what's my ultimate kind of revenue at the end of that? Have I sacrificed revenue? Am I taking in ultimately less because of the discount? But I don't think anyone is really proposing, you know, 50% discounts on a ticket. 

Sinead Kimberley: So really from that data, the revenue would be increased by discounting, which feels like opposite things to hold in your brain at the same time, but it is enticing people. I think sales work in every other industry, we know they work. We love sales. You see it and there is a bit in your brain that just reacts to it. Even if you're not interested, you might notice it more. And so I think to ignore it entirely without checking it or testing just feels like maybe not thoroughly investigating it enough based on the data we've seen, at least. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. And the data is really clear, just like you said, that the number of sales that are made is just so much higher when you're offering discounts. But what we're not able to show in the survey is what sort of discount people are offering, what level of discount they're offering. And we know really very clearly that every attraction is different and the way your audience reacts is different and the way you interact with them is different. So we're not saying go and knock 50% off your ticket, we're saying have a think about discounts and look at what you can offer and test it and see if it works for you. Because it's clearly working really well for some people. Hugely well. 

Sinead Kimberley: And I think on that kind of knowing your audience and seeing how you think they will actually react to this. I think if I think of any place where I've been and if I felt like I got a good deal, I don't have to think I know, stole my ticket. But if I feel like I got a good deal and I then also have a lovely experience there, I have a lot more reason to go and try and recommend that to a friend or go back even again, because I feel like I got treated well essentially in a considered way of maybe what I would find beneficial. 

Sinead Kimberley: And if that starts with my interest being piqued by a discount and then it goes on to me actually now being part of that audience that maybe I wouldn't have been otherwise, that also has a knock on gain rather than if I saw a price that I saw no discount to, no benefit to, then I wouldn't maybe go in the door in the first place. So you don't just miss that first discounted sale, you might miss the next full price sale of a ticket. Maybe. So there's so much to think about, depending on the audience that you're looking at. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. And I guess I kind of fall into the group where if I'm going to go somewhere, I'm probably going to go there. If you offer a discount or not, I'm probably still going to go. Getting my family to a venue is quite a big job. You know, logistically it's quite tricky. There are a lot of us and we go out a lot, so going somewhere, we tend to travel a little way to get to somewhere a bit special. And we'll have made the decision before I go to book the tickets, but if I can book the tickets and I say, “Hey, I've saved 20 quid doing this”, then in my head what I'm actually thinking is I can spend 20 quid when I get there. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: Maybe we don't have to buy a picnic from a supermarket on the way and save money that way. Maybe we can eat on site. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: So I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect that my overall kind of purchase value is more when somebody offers me a discount up front. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: But again, you know, test it. Your mileage may vary. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: So I guess, I mean, we've talked about this for quite a long time now and I think that we probably shouldn't go on too much but to stress, you know, if I can give you anything to take away from this discussion. It's a, that you really need to get hold of this data and look at it and see how it applies to you and test it, you know, look at what people who are making success out of their venue are doing and see if you can do the same thing. 

Oz Austwick: But also come and talk to us. We'd love to talk to you about this stuff. There's so much data and there's so many ways you can look at it and we're really able to break it down in a really granular way to say, “Oh, this is what animal based attractions are doing. This is what aquariums or this is what historic homes are doing, this is what theme parks are doing, this is what museums are doing.” We can do all of that. We can't put all of that data out there. 

Sinead Kimberley: No, it'd be very long. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. I mean, it would be ridiculous. And I strongly suspect that our designer would leave when, in fairness, I might too, if we had to make a report that was five times as long as the one that we've done. But, you know, if you're a client of ours and you want to talk about how you can do better, you know, hit up Sinead, drop her an email. If you, if you're not a client and you want to talk, then talk to Sinead, talk to me, talk to Paul. We'd really love to kind of go through this with you and help you be more successful. That's kind of why we're doing it. 

Sinead Kimberley: Exactly. I think that on the just talking about it as well, if it's one of those things where it feels very big and you're thinking, I've got 300 other things I'm meant to be doing, how am I meant to go and look at sustainability and reducing the steps and all of these other things, I think you can almost maybe be led as well by what people are increasingly doing, which is looking at the user experience and getting information from whoever is using your site. Because I was really happy when I saw the increase this year in people who are testing the site. And if you even can't get to that point where you can't do a big user experience testing thing, go and talk to all of the partners you're working with. 

Sinead Kimberley: Because the vast amount of knowledge in the kind of community that's formed around all of these attractions, us included, particularly for our clients, even just asking us, you know, go internally and let me know how people experience booking on the site. Partners, I think, will be happy to help have a look at that. Even if it's only a small sample of feedback points that you get that you can maybe incrementally just try and change slowly. But I think opening up that question, however big or small you're able to do it, will mean that by the time we ask you these questions next year, you're that slight step forward from where you want to be. And you don't just look at the report and think, oh, again, I wish were further up. 

Sinead Kimberley: I wish we could benchmark ourselves closer to the average or the higher end of the results we're getting. So, like Oz said, just come and have a chat about it. We might say, it's brilliant, it's perfect, there's nothing you could improve. Or we might, say, make the CTA bigger. Small things or big things. Just start the conversation about it, I think, and start thinking about it. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's probably fair to say that as an organisation, we. We're really trying to put our money where our mouth is when it comes to visitor attractions. So if you follow Robert Cheese on Instagram, you'll probably have seen that Sinead that I, that Steve, our project manager, that Paul, we're all going out and visiting attractions and actually trying to experience that booking process as a visitor. And you may well be surprised if you give us a bell or drop an email and say, we'd really like to talk about our website, we can say Great. Because when I booked tickets to come and see you, this bit was really difficult. And there's definitely some personal experience in there as well. So, yeah, talk to us. 

Oz Austwick: And if you want to talk to me, I'll come to you happily, as long as you make me a coffee. I'm a sucker for a coffee. So do we have any Calls to Action? 

Sinead Kimberley: Talk to us. We're not needy, honest. But please talk to us. 

Oz Austwick: We are a little bit needy. Oh, I know what it was I wanted to say Sustainability Action Group. We're very aware that sustainability is of growing importance and yet it's relatively new. And this is something that we're going through ourselves. We're currently reworking our own website and we're helping a of our clients to do those. So what we're trying to do is put together a group of people who are all kind of going through the process together. And this isn't us saying we're the experts at this and we'll help you do it. We've got the technical expertise and we can help with that, but we're all going through the process. 

Oz Austwick: So if you want to go through that process and you want to improve the sustainability of your website, then we are putting together a group of people that want to work together and share their wins, share the things that haven't gone as well for them, and hopefully we can all lift each other at the same time. Drop me an email or reach out to us on social media and we'll get you involved if you want to do that. So before we wrap it up for good, I want to ask you the question that we ask everyone that nobody's asked you yet, which is, do you have a book recommendation? 

Sinead Kimberley: I do. And not to keep banging on about sustainability, but I will keep banging on about sustainability. 

Oz Austwick: She really will. 

Sinead Kimberley: Just ahead of Black Friday and all of that madness. I love the visit attractions versions of Black Friday because you're not selling a thing, you're selling an experience when you have your tickets that I love. Keep doing that. But I read a book recently by Patrick Grant, who is in the British Sewing Bee, and his book was called Less. And he has made my life very difficult because now I'm not allowed really to buy things because of my what I've done to my brain. But essentially the book looks at how to buy what you need and look after it and not constantly just need, need more and more. 

Sinead Kimberley: And the way he describes pots and pans and jumpers from his gran and all of these other lovely homely feeling things really made me think about where you put your money and what you're getting back out of that. And so when it comes to, for example, when were in Stockholm, were thinking, what do we want to do? We don't want to go shopping. We do want to go and try and do an escape room. We want to go into the Paradox Museum. We want to go do something, experience something. I feel like it makes sense to put the money there rather than buying another thing that you don't really need. And so maybe ahead of Black Friday as well. 

Sinead Kimberley: I think I'll try and keep that in my mind when I see all of those Amazon sales with things that I definitely want but don't necessarily need right now and try and look instead at experiences you can get from it. So, yeah, I think read that book or listen to it on BookBeat or any of the others that are available. But yeah, it really opened my eyes a little bit to the free Black Friday things you're seeing around you, I think as well. 

Oz Austwick: Amazing. I mean, I've not read it, so I will definitely. I'll get a copy and have a read. And if you're listening to this and you want a copy for free, get onto Twitter X and be the first person to say, I want a copy of the book Sinead has recommended and we'll stick one in the post to you. So thanks so much for talking to me for agreeing to come on when you're not feeling 100%. I really appreciate it. I've had a lovely time chatting and maybe we should just attack Paul. What do you think? 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, might as well. He's not here to argue.

Oz Austwick: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! 

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

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Show references:

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebecca-porter-8a0b85121/

Becca is a seasoned development and business strategist with over five years in the leadership team at Cambridge Science Centre (CSC). She has played a pivotal role in driving CSC’s strategic growth, securing transformative results, including a 50% increase in income and establishing key partnerships that help sustain CSC’s mission.

Her expertise in fundraising, stakeholder engagement, and business development has been integral to CSC’s evolution. Representing CSC at external events, Becca engages with stakeholders across academia, industry, and government, fostering impactful relationships that strengthen the organisation’s community presence and reach.

Before joining CSC, Becca held the position of Licensing Manager at the RSPB, where she led efforts to negotiate intellectual property rights for product-based partnerships. Her strategies resulted in an increase in profit, underscoring her strong commercial acumen and collaborative approach.

With a professional background enhanced by six years of international experience with Carnival Corporation in Miami, Florida, Becca brings a global perspective to her work. Her ability to connect and communicate across diverse sectors reflects her adaptability and understanding of complex business landscapes.

Becca’s approach is marked by her commitment to expanding CSC’s impact and access to science engagement, helping inspire the next generation of learners. Her ongoing efforts to cultivate partnerships and innovate within her field underscore her dedication to making science accessible and engaging for all.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-g-farrer-ph-d-25a18976/

Andrew Farrer is the Head of Programmes and Delivery at Cambridge Science Centre. A biological anthropologist by background, he started at the Centre as a Science Communicator travelling around communities and schools on the Roadshow programme. In his current position, he makes sure the team has what they need to deliver the very best in science communication. His PhD used ancient DNA to understand how the human microbiota (the bacterial community living on and in the human body – and keeping us alive!) changed in Britain over the last 1,000 years. 

Alongside this, he used his passion for science and interest in theatre to develop a science communication programme to bring together the interdisciplinary academics at the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA – an effort that resulted in new international collaborations. He has just got back from a cycling tour in the country of Georgia, where he evaded angry guard dogs, navigated roads that were active building sites, and managed to avoid falling off until the last day! The trip was amazing though!

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mandy-curtis-688a33111/

Mandy Curtis is the Head of Exhibitions at Cambridge Science Centre. She has been with the Cambridge Science Centre since its opening in 2013, beginning as a Science Communicator, then progressing through the Education team and into Product Development. In her current role as Head of Exhibitions, Mandy oversees everything that is in and delivered at the Centre. She is also responsible for the Centre’s overall look, building maintenance, and alarm systems, as well as keeping the shop stocked with STEM-related items.

Previously, Mandy worked in the pharmaceutical industry and as a school lab technician, where she also ran a STEM club. She was actively involved in Scouting in her village for over 15 years, remaining on the Executive Committee after her own children left and leading sessions for science-related badges, along with serving as the camp cook.

Mandy enjoys walks along the beach in Norfolk with her very large dog, visiting as often as she can. She also loves having her children and their partners back home, especially since they return to their own homes afterward!

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. 

In July this year, Cambridge Science Centre opened its new building, returning to the real world after having been a science centre without a building for several years. 

In today's episode, I'm joined by some of their team. Andrew Farrer, Head of Programmes and Delivery, Rebecca Porter, Head of Development, and Mandy Curtis, the Head of Exhibitions. 

And we'll talk about the trials and tribulations of opening a new building from scratch and the benefits now the site has opened. 

Paul Marden: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Becca, Andrew, Mandy, lovely to see you. Really good to talk to you about the experience that you've had recently at Cambridge Science Centre, returning to the real world and having your own physical building for the Science Centre. 

Paul Marden: For listeners, I've had a little part to play because Rubber Cheese worked with CSC on the journey building websites. So I know a little bit about what's going on, but there's a whole load of stuff. I'm sure there's loads of anecdotes and stories that you're going to be able to tell us all about the trials and tribulations of building a brand new science centre from scratch. Before we get to that, it would be really nice if we did our icebreaker question. So I'm going to do one for each of you. Okay. So it doesn't matter which order I go in because you're not going to get any benefit from knowing what the question was. All right, so I'm going to start with you, Becca, because you’re first. First on my. On my list. Okay. 

Paul Marden: What one thing would you make a law that isn't one already? 

Rebecca Porter: Oh, that is very interesting. I'm not sure. the rest of those. 

Andrew Farrer: The rest of us are feeling a bit nervous at this stage. Yeah, Becca's law is Andrew is no longer allowed in any meeting. 

Rebecca Porter: Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. I'll go with that. 

Paul Marden: That's very specific. I think when I come to power, not if I come to power, I don't think I dive that spec. I might go more broad. It might be about abolishing foods that I cannot abide eating or something like that. Not particularly. Take one of my team out of a meeting. Seems a little bit wasteful. 

Andrew Farrer: You don't know what I'm like in meetings. 

Paul Marden: Andrew, what is the biggest mistake you've made in your life? 

Andrew Farrer: Working with Becca, obviously. No, no. I just digest. Biggest mistake I've made in my life. There's a lot of things in the moment are very stressful and you think, oh, my. What? Why am I here? Why did I do this? Why did I not think more or think less or whatever? But everything that was probably, this is a massive mistake in the moment just turned out to be a really good story in hindsight. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. 

Andrew Farrer: No, I'm happy with all of them. 

Paul Marden: There's some things that you think, oh, gosh, I really wish I could have deleted that from my memory completely. I spent a year doing a PhD and then dropped out because I realised that I didn't like working in a box on my own. But I don't think I would actually go back and not spend that year doing what I was doing, because it took quite a lot to realise that I don't like sitting in a box on my own and I actually like having other people around me. Yeah. At the time, it didn't, sitting on the bench at Egham Station, deciding, what am I doing with my life? It didn't feel like that was such a great decision that I'd made. 

Andrew Farrer: No, but they're all part of the sort of fabric that makes up the next decision, aren't they? 

Paul Marden: So, yeah, the rich tapestry. 

Andrew Farrer: That's it. That's the rich tapestry of life. 

Paul Marden: And, Mandy, I'm going to go for one last one, actually. It's not too dissimilar to what were just talking about. What was your dream job when you were growing up? 

Mandy Curtis: Before I answer that, I just have to give you my answer to Becca's question, because it's something I discussed at a previous job. If I could make one law, it would be that there was only one type of black sock. 

Rebecca Porter: That's actually a brilliant answer. 

Paul Marden: Again, hyper specific. 

Mandy Curtis: No. Trying to pair up all those black socks and none of them are quite the same. That is so annoying. So, yeah, that would be my law. 

Paul Marden: I don't think I need. I think I could broaden it and just say, there is only one type of sock, because my daughter's sock drawer is not black. There's not a single black sock in there. 

Mandy Curtis: I couldn't do that to Andrew. 

Andrew Farrer: You leave my socks out of it. 

Mandy Curtis: My actual question, when I was small, I had, in my mind, I wanted to be a scientist. Throughout all the jobs I've ever had, that's pretty much what I've been. And the job I had before this, I worked as a school lab technician and my boss came to me one day and said, “I've just got an email from Cambridge Science Centre. Looking for science communicators. I think you'd be really good at it. Why don't you apply? And I did.” And that was when it was, yeah, this is what I should always have done. 

Paul Marden: So interesting, isn't it? That's not a natural leap, is it, from a lab technician in a school to being a science communicator. But there's so much about teaching which is just telling the story and engaging people and making them want to do stuff, isn't it? 

Mandy Curtis: Yeah. It's surprising that there are a lot of parallels. Yeah. The thinking on your feet being one of the biggest ones. 

Rebecca Porter: I actually used to want to be a marine biologist when I was younger, and then I realised growing up that I'm nowhere near the sea where I am now, so that was slightly problematic. And also I saw the movie Jaws for the first time as a child and it terrified me and I quickly changed my mind about that. 

Paul Marden: Okay, let's segue from Mandy in your science communicator role, because I think it's a good segue. Let's talk a little bit about the journey that you've been on at Cambridge Science Centre over the last few years. Andrew, I'm going to start talking to you, mate, because I remember vividly last year I was at the association of Science and Discovery Centres conference and you were on stage with the guys from We The Curious, and you were talking about what it was to be a science centre without a building. Yeah. And the work that you guys were doing in the community for the listeners that weren't at the conference. Let's just take a step back and talk about the background of Cambridge Science Centre. You had a physical building, didn't you? 

Paul Marden: And you moved out of there and you spent a period of time being remote, virtual. I don't know what the quite the right term is, but you spent a while on the road. What prompted that to leave the previous centre? 

Andrew Farrer: Yeah. So that question that was being asked in the conference that what is a science centre without the building? It's really something that's very much in the fabric, the DNA of Cambridge Science Centre. The organisation is 11 years old now and through that time being an organisation that has a science centre and also being an organisation that does the outreach, which is what we would call like going out into the community and into schools and being in the spaces of the people that you're most wanting to engage, both of those things have existed in parallel and that there are strengths to both having a physical centre and being able to do that kind of Outreach and Cambridge Science Centre from the very beginning that brought those two things together and maximised the benefits of both in service of the other, really. 

Andrew Farrer: So what if you had all of the assets of a full science centre, but you could take them out on the road? What if you have the flexibility of kits that could be taken out the road, that you could do them in a space that you control? So that has always been part of things. We've had, you know. The new Science Centre that has just opened is the third permanent location that the organisation has had in its lifetime. And the decision to leave the previous one was something that was taken by the whole team. We got everyone around the table. This was post COVID. We were still coming out of having been truly remote. We're all about being hands on with science, which is very difficult in the world where you're not allowed touch anything or stand close to anyone, you know. 

Andrew Farrer: So we had to do a lot of stuff to respond to that. And then we came out of that situation, world came out of that situation and were sort of reconsidering what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And the Science Centre we had up until that point, until 2022, you know, had been a fabulous space. We've done some amazing stuff in it. We were very closed of what we've done there. But were just finding with the goals we had, with what we wanted to move on to, it was no longer a space that could fit that set of targets. So the question, what was Science Centre without a building? Wasn't that question stepping up because we decided to lose the building? 

Andrew Farrer: It was kind of, it became a bit more of a focus, but really about the fixed space. Taking a step back for a moment while we really thought about what we wanted. And then we got the amazing opportunity that I'm sure we'll be talking about in a sec with the Science park and Trinity College, which brought that having a fixed space back up on par with the Science Centre without a building. And those two are still. They've always been, they were and they are continuing to be in parallel. And we're just about ready to open up one of our new pop up sign centres. That would be a space out in New England which is going to run there for the future as well, which will run in parallel to this fixed space. 

Andrew Farrer: So it's not a new question for us, it will never be an old question for us. It is what Cambridge Science Homeset is brilliant. 

Paul Marden: And during that period where you were without a fixed home, what really worked well for you, what was effective about that outreach programme and that was a became the sole focus for a period of time?

Andrew Farrer: I mean were building on what was what we've been learning and what had been working well for that point I guess the last nine years. Yeah. So we knew that our exhibits, our hands on exhibits where you can, you don't just see a phenomenon, you can experience that moment, you've been affected, they're all possible. And so we could take them out. And we'd done that before with setting up sort of science engagement zones in banks and leisure centres. The corner of ASDA one time I think and we evolved that during just after Covid into these pop up science into these fully fledged kind of spaces that were on sort of par with the fixed space. 

Andrew Farrer: And we really lent into that, created these full, effectively full science centres with those exhibits, with the shows, with the activities, with the science communicators who could have the conversations with people and engage with the kids and answer questions and have a bit of fun and have a laugh, all that kind of stuff. In spaces that were underused in the community. We could take over empty shop units. We were in balance of rural museums. We've been all over the place and we are in those communities. We become part of the communities in the spaces. They already know it. Yeah. And that sort of eases that sort of barrier. Oh, I've got to go to the science place. Because suddenly the place part of that is their place. Yeah. And we're all about making the science. 

Andrew Farrer: It's as open and fun as possible and building up with whatever level anyone walks in with. So that was, it really was really kind of having the opportunity to hone that ability to create the proper full science centre spaces. And in getting that honed that raised our level on well, what is the fixed science centre? If you can have a fixed thing, what can you do bigger and better there? Which in Eintrum Nadia will want to speak to later. Because some of the new exhibits are phenomenal and they come out of the learning we've had from being on the road and being able to engage people in their spaces and give them a reason now to come to this space. 

Paul Marden: I'm guessing that when you go out into their space rather than making them come to you get to meet and see very different people. You know, the barrier that exists in somebody having to come to your building means there's a lot of people, there's a lot of young people, there's A lot of families for whom a great day out is not automatically thought of, you know, when they're thinking about what they're going to do at the weekend, they might not necessarily think of a science centre because it's just not what they consider to be fun. But if you go out to them, into their spaces where they are familiar, in the corner of Asda, in the Rural Museum or whatever, you're. You're getting closer to the people that don't normally walk into a science centre. 

Andrew Farrer: Absolutely, yeah. It's all about. Every single person has some form of barrier that they have to deal with. And, you know, many people have many more barriers than others. No matter what we do, there are still barriers to overcome, but it's about dropping those as low as you can and thinking about getting people across them and supporting them and getting them across them. So, I mean, absolutely, if you say if you're in their space, you remove the whole suite of barriers that exist into travelling to a fixed science centre, which is something we're thinking about and trying to then reduce those. For the fixed science centre. There are other barriers that apply. 

Andrew Farrer: Even though you're in their space and you've still got to do a lot of thinking and a lot of work to make sure it's an inviting space that they feel they're able to come into, that they can then get comfortable in, and then they can start asking questions and playing with things and break that kind of, oh, it's not for me bubble. Because it definitely is for everyone. You want each other play. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. Even so, making it an inviting space and making them want to take that step over the threshold into wherever the space is that you are. I've watched kids I'm thinking of a year ago, I was at the London Transport Museum and they had a big exhibition all around sustainability in their exhibition space, which is, I don't know, ⅓ or 3/4 of the way around the museum. And you could just see these kids just stood at the edge watching because they didn't feel confident that they could step into the space and immerse themselves into what was happening in that space. And you've just got to. You've got to make it easy for them to take that step over the threshold, haven't you? 

Andrew Farrer: Absolutely, yeah. And it's the reason that we have so many different ways of engaging, that the exhibits are there with the activities are there, that the shows are there, that the communicators are there, because people will do that in different ways. What they're comfortable starting to approach, you know, is different from the depth you can give them later. And people will do it in very different ways. But one of the early pop up science centres we had a day where we had, we partnered with a group from the University of Cambridge called Chaos with a student science engagement team. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Andrew Farrer: And their name is apt, but they're brilliant. They're brilliant. And they were all around the earth and all of these different activities and it was really interesting because we noted that, you know, almost to a Percy, everyone walked in, every kid, every adult and they went straight to our exhibits. Not because Chaos wasn't inviting, not because they didn't have cool things, not because they were pushing people away in any way. But it was exactly as you say it was that moment to be like, I don't know, this space, here's a thing that's non threatening, it's not going to ask me a question. But the Chaos were asking kind of questions that were going to, you know, they were going to get at someone for. But you don't know that when you're first walking. 

Andrew Farrer: No, you play with the exhibit, you start to, you know, that's the safe thing, you start to see what it's doing and then you receive. People build up the confidence, exactly as you say, and then they kind of wander over and suddenly they were just doing laps of the space were in. Just like repeat visiting every one of these activities. Brilliant. You know, and that's a mini version of the journey we want to take people on across their lives. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. Okay, so question for all three of you then. What was the motivation then really behind returning to a fixed building? Was it an aspiration that you always had, that you wanted to return to a fixed centre or what was the driver for that? 

Rebecca Porter: We've absolutely always had an aspiration to have a fixed venue in Cambridge. Obviously the clue is in the name Cambridge Science Centre. And we knew that we needed that nucleus, that hub that we could operate all of our other engagements from. And certainly from a supporting organisation perspective, it's very useful for us when we're having those conversations with external stakeholders about the opportunities to get involved with a physical space as well as our outreach programme. So certainly from that point of view, we had an objective to find one. Interestingly, we'd done a piece of work with a group, there's a network in the city called Cambridge Ahead and as part of Cambridge Ahead they have a young advisory committee and we'd done a scoping exercise with the young advisory committee Thinking about that positioning, where we wanted to be. 

Rebecca Porter: And the key takeaway from their research was that we needed a sort of peripheral location, so an edge of city location that was accessible, that could work for, work well for schools, but would also still allow us to have that public engagement. And for us as an organisation, we really wanted to deepen our relationship with some of the communities that were existing a bit on the margins of the city, particularly those in the north that do suffer from varying levels of deprivation. And Cambridge is a very interesting place because despite the fact that it's got this really illustrious heritage and it's seen as being very affluent, actually it's the most unequal city in the uk, or certainly in England. 

Paul Marden: Oh, is it really? 

Rebecca Porter: Yeah. And so we wanted to be able to have our physical space closer to those communities that need more access, need more support, more guidance, so that we could bridge a gap between them and between the Cambridge Science park, which is our new home, but not just the science park, the wider ecosystem and the other research and innovation parks. So, yes, absolutely. We always had an objective to get another physical space operating. 

Paul Marden: Lovely. So, Becca, I'm guessing this doesn't all come for free and that somebody's got to fund the work to get the centre together. And that's your job really, isn't it, to find people to help you do that, say, how'd you go about doing that? 

Rebecca Porter: So absolutely everything that we do is completely reliant on the support of like minded organisations and individuals. So we go about in lots of different ways. We have a wonderful board of trustees who are very engaged with the work that we do and they help to make introductions to us in their networks. But it really is a case of going out and doing a lot of footwork, understanding what organisations are operating in our space and what their objectives are in terms of community engagement and how do we align with that. So there's a lot of research that goes on in the background to figure out who we should be talking to. 

Rebecca Porter: It's wonderful being in a city like Cambridge because 9 times out of 10, most of the companies we talk to do have some objective to do something around STEM engagement in particular. And they're also very supportive of our own objective, which is to widen participation and increase diversity. So they understand that the work that we're doing with those children from the most underserved communities is absolutely vital. So that makes it quite an easy story, quite a compelling story to tell. But we are, we're hugely lucky to have the supporters that we do. And I think key supporters for us are obviously the Cambridge Science park team who enabled the transition into our new venue. Because it was, it all seemed to just line up perfectly really that our own internal discussions around where we wanted to position ourselves. 

Rebecca Porter: We knew we wanted to deepen our own relationships with these various communities. We knew we needed some kind of peripheral centre space. Unbeknownst to us at the time, but happening in parallel, the Science park team were also considering their relationship with their neighbouring communities and how they can enhance that and do more. Because the Science park is actually, it's a very porous space. So not all of the research and innovation parks are quite the same. But Cambridge Science park absolutely wants to be open to its local communities. It wants them to come in, spend time in the green spaces there and understanding a bit about the different companies that are working within the park. And the Science park as well as the main land owner, which is Trinity College University of Cambridge, again are very keen to support STEM engagement where they can. 

Rebecca Porter: So it felt like they, our objectives at the time as well as the Science Park's objectives just meshed together beautifully and that resulted in us having this transformational opportunity to be inside the heart of the Science park and alongside that in wider discussions with some of the stakeholders of the park. Specifically were introduced to some of the property development companies that are operating in there who again were very supportive of what we're trying to achieve, but also had the vision to understand that not only are we supporting the local communities, but we're offering a conduit for supporting their tenants. So how can we help them to realise their tenants ambitions? And so they've been very supportive as well. 

Rebecca Porter: And we're also incredibly lucky to have a suite of organisations that we refer to as our Executive Council, who are our corporate partners that are the lifeblood of our organisation. Their funding and their support underpins everything that we do. So I want to just recognise our Executive Council members in particular, but also the key stakeholders for us with the new centre are the Science Park, Trinity College, Brockton Everlast, an organisation called LifeArc and ARM the microprocessing chip company. So yes, they're all major stakeholders and we're very lucky to have them. 

Paul Marden: That's amazing. So the Executive Council, that's quite interesting. What do they have some influence over the work that you do and the direction that you take? It's more than just them handing over sponsorship money, it's actually an engagement in what you do. 

Rebecca Porter: Absolutely. Nothing that we do is transactional, so we don't ever take anyone's money and run. We always try to offer reciprocal programme opportunities, staff engagement opportunities, and with our executive council members, they really do help shape and influence the trajectory of the organisation. So we have regular meetings with them, we talk to them about what our plans are, where they think there may be opportunities that we aren't perhaps looking at, that we could be exploring or should be exploring. And they certainly do have that. That level of influence over the direction of the organisation in general. 

Paul Marden: And then I suppose the choice of the location is partly driven by those relationships that you built with Trinity College and the Science park. And I guess it was collaborative, the choice of the location itself. Yeah, you didn't go looking for a building with some shortlist. There was. You built a partnership with these people and together you found the space that worked for all of you. 

Rebecca Porter: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, the space that we're currently occupying is a pre existing building, so it's called the Trinity Centre and it actually was a conferencing space with a catering facility on site as well as the park barbers, interestingly. And so through the relationship with Trinity College and through the discussions with the team in the park, we recognise that actually the space could be working a bit harder, not just for the science park, but for the wider community. And so we essentially repurposed one half of the ground floor of that existing building and Mandy's done a fabulous job turning that space into what is now our new Science Centre. So, yes, I mean, personally, I think having been in that space a lot, if you didn't know it was a conference centre before we took it over, I don't think you'd ever guess that. 

Rebecca Porter: So, yeah, it's been really wonderful. 

Paul Marden: You just cued me up perfectly to turn to Mandy. How do you go about filling a space with all the amazing exhibits to make it from a conference venue into this exciting and inviting science centre? How did you even go about doing that? Did somebody give you a blank sheet of paper and tell you off you go, just do whatever you like? 

Mandy Curtis: Well, pretty much it was a blank slate to work with. But then of course, we've got all our experience from the years leading up to this. So we've got a suite of exhibits that we know work and we know which ones we wanted to take forward, which ones we wanted to build on and expand on. So although in some ways it was a blank slate, it was very much a guided blank slate. So it's still a. For a Science centre. It's still a relatively small space, so we made the decision early on that we wouldn't have themed areas. So we're not big enough to have a space corner and a biology corner. So we've gone for an experiential centre. So you come in for the experience, you come in for one of the most. The thing for me is intergenerational play and learning. 

Mandy Curtis: So families coming in together, there's something for everyone. So that led the thinking and the decision making with exhibits and I reached out to lots of different people, existing standing exhibit makers, and some people have never made anything like this before. So we've got a real mix here. But what was important was that it's not somewhere where you walk, where the kids walk in, press a button and walk away. It was about prolonged active engagement. So each exhibit has layers of interaction. So you can come in, do one thing, come back another time and do something different or within the same visit, you can build on what you're doing. So, yeah, it's very much about the experience. 

Paul Marden: So is there an aspiration for the kids and the families to revisit to you? Do you want to create this space where they want to return several times over the space of a year or even as they grow up? You're supporting them through different things that interest them? 

Mandy Curtis: Absolutely. That's. That's very much what it's about. We have a membership where you want to create the feeling of belonging, of being. This is a place to come with annual membership, you can come as many times as you like. Lots of the exhibits will be the same, but because of the way we've made them and we've prepared them, there's always something different to do with them. And also we have a programme of shows and lab activities that constantly change, so there's always something different and new to do in the space. 

Paul Marden: Have you got particular audiences in mind that you want to appeal, make the space appealing to? 

Mandy Curtis: Yeah, we have a very specific audience and I call that everybody. That everything here can be reached by anybody. That's. Yeah, I don't exclude or include anybody. That's why. That's part of the layering. So younger kids, less able kids, older people, there's something here for everyone. I mean, obviously we have an age range for children that is most suitable, but there are also things for younger kids. There's. I mean, quite often we get families coming in and the adults are saying, well, this is way too good for just kids. And that's exactly how I feel about it as well. It's. It's a family place, it's for pretty much any age group, any. Any abilities. Yeah. 

Paul Marden: So how do you make that. If you're appealing to everyone, how do you make it more inclusive to kids with challenges? Kids with send difficulties, for example? How do you provide something that can enrich everybody's understanding of science? 

Mandy Curtis: It's really about having some familiar things here in two different ways. So there's familiarity in that. We've got some of our classic exhibits on site, so if people have ever been to one of our previous sites, there'll be things that they recognise from there, but also bringing in things from the outside world, from their world at home. So one of the exhibits is a paper plane launcher. I mean, who hasn't made a paper plane? So it's stuff that they're familiar with, but come here and do it and it just brings out a whole new level. So we talk about ways you can build a better paper plane, ways you can adjust your paper plane, and then, of course, just putting it through the launcher is just incredible fun. So it's taking stuff that people know about and can relate to and that's really important. 

Mandy Curtis: So some of the, some concepts that we want to get across are potentially outside of people's experiences completely. But if we can present it in a way that starts at level that they're familiar with, they can relate to and engage with, then there's a progression through and we're able to get concepts across that you might, if you went straight in at the top level, you just, it just wouldn't engage them in the same way. 

Rebecca Porter: To add to that, I just wanted to say that our magic pixie dust, if you will, that brings everything to life, really are our team of science communicators. So that also, you know, that's what, you know, brings every experience in the Science Centre to life is our wonderful team. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I mean, that's this, that. That's like every good attraction, isn't it? It's never about the physical space, it's about the feelings that you get and it's the people that are there that help you build that feeling, isn't it? That's why it's a magical place that makes people want to come back, isn't it? How do you also serve that very local community? Have you found that by locating yourselves on the science park, where you are close to those areas of multiple deprivation within the city? Have you found that just mere locality is enough to encourage people in or are you actively doing things to bring that local audience to you? 

Rebecca Porter: Absolutely both. So we're already doing a lot with one particular community. There's a part of the city called King's Hedges and we see a group of children there once a week for an after school club and have just started transitioning that club from their own space. We've been operating it in their community centre but now they are coming to us, which is fabulous. And one thing that I've really loved since we've opened the new venue is our proximity to those particular communities. An example of how much more accessible we are is that we did a soft launch before we did our major public opening in the summer with some local schools, one of which was King's Hedges Primary School, and the teachers were able to just walk the children to us and that's never been possible before. 

Rebecca Porter: And we've got much bigger plans to expand the community focused piece to other parts of the city because we would really love to have at least four days a week where we're running an after school club of some description for groups around the city that face additional barriers. So, yeah, we are all over that. 

Paul Marden: That's amazing. It sounds so exciting. I run a coding club for kids at my daughter's school. A lot of it is about the engagement that the kids have. They don't get that enrichment outside in those STEM technology. So for you guys to be reaching out to that local community and offering that after school provision for them to be engaged in science, then there's a group of kids that just must lap that up. They must love it. 

Rebecca Porter: Absolutely. And I think Andrew's always said that for us, we obviously there's lots of extracurricular clubs. You've got drama clubs and dance clubs and acting clubs, but very rarely do you come across anything science focused. And what we would love to see moving forward is that's normalised that actually you can go to an after school club, that it's all about science and it's just part of the everyday offering that's available to children, particularly those local to us. 

Paul Marden: And have you found, I mean, it's probably too early to tell, but have you found that it's beginning to blur the lines of the science park into the community? Because there's something about Cambridge, isn't there? And the whole he's a world leading hub of science and driving science forward and making science commercially valuable happens at that point where the university meets the rest of the community around it. Are you seeing that you bringing the kids into the space is beginning to open their eyes to what is possible for them on their own doorstep. In terms of science. 

Andrew Farrer: Yeah, I think we are seeing the first steps of that, you know, in your previous questions and what Mandy and Becca have said, I think they've, you know, referenced and alluded to the layers. We're talking about the new centre as if, you know, it's open and therefore it's done. It's not done, we're not done, you know, and yes, getting those exhibits in there and all of the work that Mandy put into making them so generalist enough in the sense that, you know, these age ranges, these ability ranges, these, you know, whatever range you want to talk about can access them. But then it is, what's the programming? We only really launched, the soft launch was end of June. The big launch was, you know, end of July. Really. 

Andrew Farrer: That only covers 2 of the audiences that we're on, which is the schools and the sort of public inverted commas. There's the everyone this half term we've started that work with the North Cambridge Community Partnership Club that has been moved in that Becca was talking about. But that is very much step one next year is all about filling those four afternoon slots with such a variety that work in such a different way. It's about bringing in the schools throughout the days, throughout the week. It's about flexing those weekends. As Mandy said, it's about finding what all of these different organises, local and more further afield want, need, what their questions are, things like that. 

Andrew Farrer: We're here to respond so we can create sessions that the generalist concept of the centre might support those in the send community, but we can create a session where it's okay. This will be the quieter session. This will be where we'll have timings on the exhibits that allow will change the lighting. And we're still sort of exploring and thinking about how we do that. Right. So that the experiences is just as good, just as strong, just as inspiring and isn't affected by the fact that something might have been slightly altered. And there's a flip side to that. There are people who are much better at engaging when there's a lot going on. It's almost like there's a hyper sensitivity. There's things to think about on that side as well. 

Andrew Farrer: So this is a project that 2025 will see a lot of work on, but really is a never ending process. As long as there are people and as long as there are individuals which can help deliverance, then we are there to make sure. That everyone gets the access and that means using all of the physical kit, we've got all of these physical spaces and our team to respond as, you know, as much as we can. So. 

Paul Marden: So is there much for you? Did your team of science communicators have to do much to get themselves ready to return to the physical space? Or did they walk in the door and it just felt like home straight away? And they were delivering what they've been delivering for 11 good years? 

Andrew Farrer: Yeah, there was an element of coming home and there's an element of this is what we do. Because as I said, the outreach and the permeable space are singing in harmony, as it were. But this new space does have. It's new and it's bigger and better and more accessible than anything we've been able to do for. And that has brought things that we haven't experienced before. So we, you know, we made ourselves as kind of theoretically ready as we could. There have been challenges both from a practical running an event venue to how do we. How do we do silent science communication when we are constantly learning? We've changed things already, you know, we're flexing and responding and they affect the things that we wanted to bring in the future that I was referencing before they change each plan. 

Andrew Farrer: And we have a lovely timeline, it's very exciting, very big map, lots of post its that shows where we want things to start happening, but each of those responds to that. So there's no one single ready. And again, even when you are as close to ready as might exist, just like the programmes that we offer, that readiness evolves as well. You keep learning. 

Paul Marden: Of course. So what were those challenges then? What can we share with listeners? What were some of the things that if you had another swing at it, you'd do differently through this process that you've gone through this transition? 

Andrew Farrer: That links back to your, what was your biggest mistake? We only knew we learned because we tried something that didn't in theory worked, you know. Yeah, I mean, there's just some sort of like general practical thinking. You implement a system and then only when it's actually put through its paces you realise, oh, hang on, there's this like scenario tangent that we haven't thought about. There's, you know, there's a few things on that front about practically running the. Running the space. As Becca said, that the science park is porous, but we are one of the big things that is now bringing the public in. So there's, you know, murmuring is in that as well because that porosity has been used in the way it hasn't been previously. And we've been thinking about when are people coming during the day, when are they. 

Andrew Farrer: Their repeat visits happening? Which means when do we cycle the lab activities in the show? Talking about, you know, we can do a different show every day but you know, that's probably overkill because people aren't going to come quite every day. But actually what cycle are they coming on so that we can make sure that we, you know, we're providing sort of an awe inspiring moment and a set of curiosity experiences on a wide variety of different topics so that we can find that thing that sparks everyone. 

Mandy Curtis: Just to add to what Andrew said, I think it would be hard to label anything we've done as a mistake because we wouldn't be where we are now if we hadn't gone through the process we did. So even stuff, very few things that didn't quite work out well, we've learned from and we've moved on and we've built on. So everything has, I feel everything we've done and has been a positive experience. It's all been, you know, it's all been good. 

Paul Marden: It's a very philosophical approach to it, isn't it? The idea that it's never done, the project isn't over, it just continually, you know, it needs continual tweaking and continual improvement. 

Andrew Farrer: It's a scientific approach, if anything.

Mandy Curtis: Much as I promised I would be laying down in a dark room by now, I'm not and I won't be. And we're still, you know, there's, we're planning, we're moving forward and looking to next year at the programmes and what we can offer. So yeah, there's always something more to do. 

Paul Marden: Once again, you're queuing me up for my next question, which was really what do the goals look like for the future? You've done this massive project, returning to a physical space and getting it ready and opening it up and welcoming people in. Where do you go now? What are the aspirations for the next couple of years? 

Mandy Curtis: It's more of the same, better, more different, looking at different approaches at different audiences. We're going to be. I'm already planning and writing the STEM Tots programme for next year. So that's the younger kids, the preschoolers, so there's new audiences all the time to move into. There's school holidays, you know, kids have been over here over the summer for the next school holiday, they're going to want something different. So we're thinking about that, how we can encourage people to come back, what we can offer, what different things, different collaborations. However many companies on the science park. I don't know, Becca probably does. There's people we haven't even spoken to yet. So there's just opportunities everywhere still. 

Rebecca Porter: For us, I would say that we are, it's definitely a programmes expansion piece next year. So we need to really solidify what we've got now with our new venue and start building out those different audiences and what the different programmes for each audience will look like. And then it's also making sure that our Popup science centre in Wisbeach continues to go from strength to strength. And so certainly, although we've got this fabulous new venue, we don't lose focus on the outreach work that we're doing as well as building up, building momentum around our support. And Andrew's doing a really wonderful job putting some work into our logic model and our theory of change. And so again it's mapping that out and then how we can link that to, to our, to the work that we're doing. 

Rebecca Porter: The supporting organisations, what role can they play in pushing forward our logic model? In particular, we talk a lot about emotions, skills and actions as being what underpins our logic model and it's how can our different partners lean into those things? Are there organisations that want to support the emotions piece? Can we do a skills focused programme with another organisation? So there's still lots of mapping to be done, but hugely exciting stuff. 

Andrew Farrer: Opening the doors to the centre was really only the beginning. Now it's making the absolute amount, squeezing every bit of juice out of this amazing fruit that we've been lucky enough to be supported to build for ourselves. 

Paul Marden: Stretching your analogy just a little bit there, but it's a very good point. 

Andrew Farrer: What analogy if you can't stretch it to its unfathomable limits? 

Paul Marden: Andrew, one last question because I think a couple of you have mentioned the Popup Science Centre. Tell me a little bit about what is that and what's the plan for the future? 

Andrew Farrer: Yeah, so our Popup science centres are fully fledged science centres. They appear in community spaces. So the ones that I mentioned earlier and they feature our hands on exhibits, they feature our shows, they feature our activities and we are in November moving into a empty well, it's currently empty, but we're about to fill it chalk unit right in the heart of Wisbeach in the Fenland area. So the Fenland region which is on the north of Cambridge, one of these areas that if transport around the area is difficult, sort of deprivation in that area. But there are some great pieces of science, technology, engineering and maths, you know, organisations working in those areas as well. 

Andrew Farrer: But it's one of those places where for all of the efforts we put into breaking down the barriers to come into the fixed space, that's one of the areas that we're really struggling. So we're going to that there'll be a fully fledged science centre which will be open to schools and the public on those points through the year to go in, to explore, to have these workshops, to have these shows, to engage, to chat. We are kind of, this is coming off the back of, one of these 18 months long project where we've had these pop up science centres sort of around Fenland. This is kind of where we're settling in and really sort of digging our heels in a little bit. So sort of phase two will start to become much more co development with the community. 

Andrew Farrer: We've been able to spend 18 months getting to know the people of this area and then importantly getting to know us. It's now exactly back to what I was talking about earlier. It's been sort of equivalent of the kids walking in and seeing the exhibits and having a play. Now we're ready, both of us and them to have this conversation about well what should a time centre be for you specifically? And honestly we don't know what that will be. But next summer Cambridge Centre and Wis beach will become this whole new thing where there might be forensic escape rooms happening. There could be some giant chain reactions going on with balls and bean bags flying everywhere. People could be building cardboard cities. 

Andrew Farrer: I've got no idea because it's actually not down to us, it's down to the people who want to answer the questions that are part of their lives. 

Paul Marden: Wowzers. It's just amazing. I'm so excited for you. I'm so pleased because it's been a project that I've been watching from the sidelines growing. I'm so pleased that the project's not over and that there's an aspiration to really push this thing and squeeze it for all it's worth. 

Andrew Farrer: Just like my analogies. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Lastly, we always ask for a book recommendation and you're going to bankrupt me because I've invited three of you on here. So I'm going to get three book recommendations. So what are your recommendations, Becca? 

Rebecca Porter:  First, first for you, I would say I'm actually a huge fan of an author called Philippa Gregory. And so my favourite book would be The White Queen by Philippa, which is all about Elizabeth Woodville. And Shima was married to I believe Edward IV during the Plantagenet era. So I love a bit of historical fiction. So that's my one. 

Paul Marden: Aha. Okay. So my colleague and co host Oz, big into historical reenactment. I'm sure that would be a book that would appeal to him. Andrew, what about you mate? What's your recommendation? 

Andrew Farrer: I have a book this is about I've had for years. I mean it's a kid's book really. It's a book called Aquila by someone called Andrew Norris and it's one of these books that it's about a short book. I keep revisiting it every now and again. It's just a story I've always engaged with. But it's funny, looking at it now, it almost seems very relevant. So it's about two young high school lads who on a school field trip get passed away from the rest of their class and end up falling into a cave and discovering a Roman centurion skeleton and by him what turns out to be an alien spaceship. So the navy spaceship have been on earth for some 2,000 years. 

Andrew Farrer: And the rest of the book is they don't want to just tell everyone else that the spaceship is here and it's them figuring out okay, well we can't take it home now because we're on a feeder trip so we've got to figure out a way to come back and get it home without anyone seeing it. And then they've got to learn how it works. And it turns out that it's kind of got AI function I guess and it can talk but because it was previously used by Roman, it taught in Latin. So they have to learn Latin. It turns out it's run by water. They figure out how much water. And it's a really brilliant story about these kids solving all of these problems around having quite that fun Canadian spaceship. 

Andrew Farrer: But at the same time their teachers are aware that these two kids who've classically not engaged at school at all are suddenly asking all of these really weird non class related questions. And yeah, they figure out the whole spaceship thing but think it's story they've made up for themselves. And so I give them the actual support and engagement they need in school to learn better than they were. But everyone misses that the spaceship is totally real, that these kids are flying off like Mount Everest on the weekend. So I love that. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. That sounds really good. That sounds like one I need to read to my daughter. Mandy, last but not least, what's your recommendation? 

Mandy Curtis: Just to say Andrew's book was made into a kids' TV series that I remember watching. Yeah, I've just. The most recent book I've read was one from way back. Not fiction. It was Life on Earth, David Attenborough and I reread read it often. It was the series that really sent me on my way to where I am now when I. I was doing unusually a zoology A level and my teacher played us the videos of Life on Earth and yeah, I've never got, never moved away from it. So yeah, that's the book I've read most recently and would recommend. 

Paul Marden: What, what a recommendation as well. That's a lovely one. So, dear listeners, as you know, if you go over to X and retweet the show, tweet and say I want Becca or Andrew or Mandy's book and the first person that does that will get that book sent to them. And I think as we got through recommendations, three of you could choose any one of those and we'll make an exception and bankrupt the marketing budget. Guys, it has been absolutely lovely talking to you and finding out a little bit more about the story of the journey that you've been on recently. And I think we should get back together again soon and find out how the pop up is going and what's actually filling that vacant shop because I think that's a really exciting proposition. But thank you for joining me today. 

Paul Marden: It's been absolutely marvellous. 

Mandy Curtis: Thank you. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! 

• Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
• Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
• Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
• Learn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion rates
• Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report
 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Special Clips from our previous guests:

Understanding Sustainability Reporting https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/polly-buckland

Polly Buckland sat on the client side in a marketing manager role at BMW (UK) Ltd before co-founding The Typeface Group in 2010. She’s an ideas person, blending creativity and commercial awareness to get the best outcomes for our clients.

The Typeface Group is a B Corp Communications Agency + Design Studio based in North Hampshire. Their mission is to counteract digital chatter by championing authentic and strategic communication. Team TFG work with brilliant minds in business to extract, optimise and amplify their expertise, cutting through content clutter and stimulating sales
while reducing digital waste at all costs.  The Typeface Group have been B Corp certified since October 2021 and is currently going through recertification. 

Digital Sustainability and the Elephant in the Room https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/james-hobbs

James Hobbs is a people-focused technologist with over 15 years experience working in a range of senior software engineering roles with a particular focus on digital sustainability.
He is Head of Technology at creative technology studio, aer studios, leading the technology team delivering outstanding work for clients including Dogs Trust, BBC, Historic Royal Palaces, and many others. Prior to joining aer studios, James was Head of Engineering at digital agency Great State, where he led a multi-award-winning software engineering team working with clients including the Royal Navy, Ministry of Defence, Honda Europe, the Scouts, and others.

He also has many years experience building and running high-traffic, global e-commerce systems while working at Dyson, where he headed up the global digital technical team.

Making Holkham the UK's most pioneering and sustainable rural estate

https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/lucy-downing-and-sue-penlington

Lucy Downing - Head of Marketing and Sue Penlington - Sustainability Manager at Holkham Estates.

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. 

Paul Marden: When consumers are asked if they care about buying environmentally and ethically sustainable products, they overwhelmingly answer yes. A recent study by Nielsen IQ found that 78% of us consumers say that a sustainable lifestyle is important to them. And while attractions have been great at a wide range of initiatives to improve their sustainability, this year's Visitor Attraction Website Survey will show that as a sector, we're lagging behind on digital sustainability. 

Paul Marden: So in today's episode, I'm going to talk about the learning journey I've been on personally, along with my colleagues at Rubber Cheese, to understand digital sustainability and how to affect real change. 

Paul Marden: I'll talk about what I've learned from hosting this podcast and how we've started to make real changes to our processes and our client sites to make them more sustainable. Welcome to Skip the queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden. 

Paul Marden: Back in April, I spoke to Polly Buckland from The Typeface Group about the importance of sustainability reporting. 

Polly Buckland: There's buckets of research out there as to the relationship between consumer behaviour and sustainability. So McKinsey did a study. “60% of customers actively prioritise purchasing from sustainable businesses.” Capgemini, “77% of customers buy from and remain loyal to brands that show their social responsibility.” I could literally keep quoting stats as to why businesses should take their sustainability goals very seriously and the communication of their sustainability initiatives very seriously, because it's becoming clearer. 

There was another stat about primarily women making the decisions based on sustainability of a business, and Millennials and Gen Z being sort of high up the list of people that are taking sustainability creds into consideration when they're making a purchase. So, I mean, it's a barrel load of stats that suggest if you don't have your eye on sustainability reporting and communicating your sustainability goals, you perhaps should have. 

Paul Marden: Of course, many attractions have been blazing a trail on the subject of sustainability for years. Going back in the archives of Skip the Queue to 2021, Kelly spoke to Lucy Downing, the Head of Marketing, and Sue Penlington, the Sustainability Manager for the Holkham Estate. First, let's hear from Kelly and Lucy. 

Kelly Molson: Lucy, I wondered if you could just give us an overview of Holkham Estates for our listeners that might not be aware of you or visited there themselves. 

Lucy Downing: So if you sort of picture it, most of the time when you think about stately homes, you picture a stately home with a garden. At Holkham, we are very much a landscape with a stately home. So 25,000 acres. We have a national nature reserve. A beach, b eautiful beach. It's been in Shakespeare in love. If you know the final scenes of Gwyneth Paltrow walking across the sands, that's Holkham, a bsolutely stunning. We're a farm, but at the centre of that, we've also got our 18th century palladian style mansion and that's home to Lord Lady Leicester and their family. They live in the halls. It's a lived in family home. But then we also have all of our visitor facing businesses. 

Lucy Downing: So we've got the hall, our Holkham stories experience, which is an attraction museum telling us all history and the now and the future of Holkham. 

Lucy Downing: We've got a high ropes course, cycle hire, boat hire, normally a really buzzing events calendar. We have accommodations. We've got Victoria Inn, which is near the beach. We've also got Pine Woods, which is a holiday park with caravans and lodgers. We have our self catering lodges, which within the park. And then we've got farming, conservation, gamekeeping, land and properties. We've got nearly 300 properties on the estate that are tenanted. A lot of those people work for Holkham, or if not, they work in the local community. We've got forestry and then we've also officiated and it's won lovely awards for the best place to work in the UK. It's a stunning landscape that surrounds it and we've got. I don't know if you've heard of her, but Monica Binnedo, which is global jewellery brand, she's based at Longlands at the offices. 

Lucy Downing: She decided a few years back to base her whole business there. She got all of her shops around the world, but that's where her business is. And I think she's ahead of the times, ahead of this year. She sort of knew how wonderful it would be to be working, I suppose, and not in a city centre, so I hope that gives you a flavour. But, yeah, I think it's 25,000 acres of beauty, landscapes with a house in the middle and lots of wildlife. 

Kelly Molson: I mean, it really is one of the most beautiful places and that stretch of the world holds a really special place in our hearts. It's somewhere that we visit very frequently and it's stunningly beautiful. 

Paul Marden: Later in that episode, Sue shared her insights on their sustainability strategies. 

Sue Penlington: So we've got three main themes. One is pioneering environmental gain I, which is all about connecting ecosystems and biodiversity and habitats. One is champion low carbon living, which is all about carbon emissions, our impact on construction and housing, our leisure operations. That sort of thing, and farming. And then the last one is the one that we always talk about. Tread lightly, stamp out waste. So that's all about recycling, reducing single use plastics and that sort of thing. So those three themes are what we're running with for 2021. We've got three goals, which are quite ambitious as well. And for me, I just see 2021 as that year of change where we'll make an impact. So we've done quite a lot of talking, and rightly so, and we want to take our visitors on that journey and really start to chip away at those goals. 

Paul Marden:  Now, let's talk a little bit about the fears around talking about sustainability. I think one of the things that is getting in the way of an open discourse around digital sustainability is fear. We're afraid of being judged by our actions and our intentions. In a recent survey by Unilever of social media influencers, 38% were afraid to openly discuss sustainability for fear of being accused of greenwashing. Again, let's hear from Polly, which is. 

Polly Buckland: Why, again, that storytelling part of the impact reporting is really important for me, because I will say we are not perfect. These are the things that we know we need to work on, but these are the things we've done better. And that's what I really like. The BCorp BIA assessment and their framework is because it takes you across five categories of measurement, and no one's perfect in any of them, but what it does do is it provides a framework for you to better. 

Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. 

Polly Buckland: And measure yourself against. Yeah, I think if. I think the messaging behind your sustainability is really important. If you're professing to be perfect and you're not, you will get stung, because I think people can see through that. But if you are showing that you're trying to better, I don't think many people could argue with that. 

Paul Marden: Now, let's rewind a little and talk about my interest in digital sustainability. When I spoke to James Hobbs of the aer studios about digital sustainability back in July, we talked about my ignorance. So my background was at British Airways and I was there for ten years. It really wasn't that hard to spot the fact that environmentally, that we have a challenging problem, because when you stood on the end of Heathrow Runway, you can see what's coming out the back end of a 747 as it takes off. But I don't think I ever quite understood the impact of what I do now and how that's contributing more to CO2 emissions than what I was doing previously, which, yeah, I just don't think there's an awareness of that more broadly. 

James Hobbs: No, yeah, I'd agree. And it's complicated. 

Paul Marden: In what way? 

James Hobbs: I guess it's complicated to quantify the carbon impact of the type of work that we do in the digital industry because I guess there's what we're shipping to end users, which is one thing, but most modern websites and applications and stuff are built on a big tower of cloud services providers and all of their equipment has to be manufactured which has a carbon impact and rare earth metals need to be mined out of the grid. All of that stuff. Theres a big supply chain backing all this stuff and we can influence some of that directly, but a large chunk of it, we cant. So it makes choosing your suppliers quite important. 

Paul Marden: But in a presentation by my friend Andy Eva-Dale, now CTO of the agency Tangent, he opened my eyes to the impact that the digital sector has on the environment. The Internet consumes 1021 terawatt hours of electricity per year. That's more than the entire United Kingdom. Globally, the average webpage consumes approximately 0.8 grammes of CO2 per page view. For a website with 10,000 monthly page views, that's 102 kilos of CO2 per year. 

And as we'll see in a bit, the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey shows this year that the websites in our sector are anything but average. But let's talk about my learning journey. I've used this podcast as a way to learn about the sector and to drill down into sustainability itself. My interviews with Polly and James taught me a lot. It's one of the real benefits of running a podcast. 

Paul Marden: I can sit and ask people questions that in real life they may not want to talk about. Beginning from absolute first principles. Following the advice from James in the podcast, I've gone and studied the online materials published by the Green Software foundation, including their green software practitioners certificate. Some of that is quite technical, but a lot of what's in there is a real interest to a lot of people. Now let's talk a little bit about what I've learned along that journey. 

In an interesting conversation with Andy Povey the other day, he talked about people's innate reaction to digital sustainability and that for many people, the move to digital feels sustainable. I'm not printing things out anymore, so it must be sustainable. Of course, all that computation and networking has a massive global impact on greenhouse gas emissions, so not every website is sustainable. 

Paul Marden: In another conversation I had recently, someone said to me, why does all of this digital sustainability stuff matter? If I host my site on a green hosting server, there's no harmful emissions from the server. But that's only one part of a complex web. The power needed to connect up all the servers in the world and to all of the endpoint devices is immense. Of course, the carbon emitted to generate power varies country by country as well as by time. 

And that's not really in our control. But we can definitely control the impact our website has on all of that infrastructure. As the web page is in flight over the Internet to somebody's mobile device, the power it uses and consequently the carbon emitted along the way is therefore something that's definitely in our control. 

Paul Marden: The other source of learning for us this year has been the sustainability elements of the rubber cheese survey of visitor attraction websites. We made sustainability a core theme of this year's survey and we found some really interesting things. 80% of attractions in our survey have got some sort of sustainability policy, which is an amazing achievement and sets a benchmark for the sector. Also, a number of attractions are taking active steps to improve the sustainability of their website. 

But we found that this isn't necessarily being done in a framework of measuring and monitoring the sustainability of their website. So the changes that people are making could be making improvements to the sustainability of their site, but at worst, some of the techniques being used could actually harm the performance and sustainability of the website. 

Paul Marden: The thing is, if you're not testing and measuring, you can't ever know whether the changes that you're making are effective. The Green Business Bureau talk about how benchmarks provide a reference point to assess trends and measure progress and baseline global data. They say, "Companies have begun measuring sustainability performance, which allows them to make continuous assessments, evaluate where they lie on the sustainability agenda and make data driven decisions and policies. 

Measuring sustainability requires proper selection of key sustainability metrics and a means of making effective process improvements. These measures provide real time data and much needed quantitative basis for organisations to strategise and mitigate environmental and social and economic risks." I'll come back to making process improvements later, but for now let's just stick with measures. Back to James Hobbs, who talked about the ways in which you can measure the CO2 emissions on our website. 

James Hobbs: There are some tools out there that you can use to help you quantify the carbon impact of what you've got out there in the wild now. So the big one that most people talk about is websitecarbon.com, which is the website carbon calculator that was built by, I think a combination of an agency and some other organisations come up with an algorithm, it's obviously not going to be 100% accurate because every single website app is slightly different and so on, and as a consistent benchmark for where you are and a starting point for improvement. Tools like that are really good. Ecograder is another one. Those offer non technical routes to using them. 

Paul Marden: Now, both of these websites use similar technologies and methodologies to understand the CO2 emissions of a website. But the survey shows more than half of attractions have never tested the CO2 emissions of their site. This got me thinking. If it's that easy to test the sustainability of a single webpage and you can run them on any website, but most attractions aren't doing it, then what can we as Rubber Cheese do to help? So in this year's survey, we've run the largest audit of visitor attraction sustainability scores that we're aware of. So working with our lovely podcast producer Wenalyn, who also supports me with the survey, firstly, I run a proof of concept gathering and comparing data for a small number of attractions in our database this year. 

Paul Marden: Once we began to better understand the data, Wenalyn went and ran this against all of the sites that were in our database. With this, we hope to support the sector with a benchmark of webpage sustainability that can be used by anyone in the sector. And what this has shown us is that 58% of attraction websites are rated f by Website Carbon. That's 8% worse than the general population of all websites. But the sobering thing for me as an agency owner is that the sites that we build were in that 58%. The work that we've been doing recently isn't good enough from a sustainability perspective. So this triggered a number of projects internally for us to improve the sustainability posture of the sites that we design and build. 

Paul Marden: So I'm going to dig into one of those sites and the journey we've been on to remediate the sustainability of their site, because I think it can give a really nice understanding of the journey that you have to go on, the changes that you can make, and what the impact of those changes could be. Now, we started by benchmarking the scores for the site in question from Website Carbon and Ecograder. And this site was a grade F and marked 51 out of 100 by Ecograder. From there, we drove our improvements off of the feedback that Ecograder gave us. We worked as a team to estimate the work involved in the feedback from Ecograder to identify the tasks with the lowest estimated effort and the highest potential impact. 

Paul Marden: Essentially going for the quick wins, we implemented a number of really simple measures, we implemented lazy loading of images. This is making the browser only download images when they're just about to show on screen. If you don't lazy load an image on a page, then when the webpage opens, the browser will go and grab the image, calculate the size, and redraw the webpage with that image in it, even though the image is off screen. If the user then clicks something in the top part of the screen, maybe in the top navigation, and they never scroll down, they will never see that image. So all that network traffic that was used, all the computation in the browser to be able to figure out the size and paint the screen, was completely wasted because the user never got to see the image. 

Paul Marden: So by lazy loading, it means that if a person doesn't scroll all the way down the page, then an image near the bottom of the page will never get loaded. And it's an incredibly simple code change that you can write in now. This used to be something that you had to write custom code to implement, but most browsers now support lazy loading, so it should be really easy for people to implement that. 

Paul Marden: Another thing that we did was to correctly size images. We found that, but with best rule in the world, our editors were uploading images that were very high resolution, very big images, even though on screen we might only show a thumbnail. By resizing the images inside WordPress, we've made it easy for our editors to upload whatever size image that they like. But we only share the smaller image when somebody views the webpage, again, cutting down network traffic as a result of that. One other thing that we made a change on was to make the website serve more modern image formats. 

Paul Marden: Again, we used a WordPress package to do this, called imagify, and it means that our editors can upload images using the file formats that they're familiar with, like JPEG, GIF and PNG, but that we convert them to more modern formats like WebP inside WordPress. And that has better compression, making the images smaller without any discernible loss of quality, and making the whole webpage smaller, lighter, faster as a result of it, which has the impact of reducing the CO2 emissions that are needed to be able to use that webpage just as a guide. We measure everything that we do in the business in terms of the time it takes us to do things. So we're real sticklers for time tracking, but it was really important in this project for sustainability to work out what the differences were that were making. 

Paul Marden: So these changes, those three that I just outlined there cost us about a day and a half of development effort and much of that was done by one of our junior developers. So it wasn't hugely complex work that was done by an expensive, experienced developer. But in return for those changes, that one and a half days of effort, we've seen an improvement in rating by website carbon from F  to B and on eco grader from 54 out of 100 to 83 out of 100. This puts the site well into the realm of better than most websites on the Internet and better than 84% of attractions in this year's survey. Is it enough? No, of course not. We can do more and in fact, there are still technical improvements that we can make that don't impinge at all on the user's experience. 

Paul Marden: We can and we will make more changes to move the site from B to A or even to A+. But there's no doubt that following the old 80-20 rule, these marginal gains will be progressively harder and more costly to achieve. And there may be changes that are needed that will impinge on the user experience. Some things you cannot improve from a sustainability perspective without changing what the user is going to experience. If you've got an auto playing video on your website that consumes bandwidth, it generates network traffic. You cannot remove that video without removing the video entirely and changing it to be something that isn't autoplay but plays w hen a button presses that will have an impact on the user experience. Not everyone will click that button. 

Paul Marden: Not everyone will watch that video and say not everyone will necessarily have the same feeling about the attraction that they got when there was an autoplay video in place. But there are undoubtedly lots of things that can be done that don't impact the user experience of the site. One of the changes that we still haven't made, which is a little bit more effort, it's a little bit more complexity, and adds a little bit of costs to the hosting of the website is the introduction of a Content Delivery Network or CDN. Here's James Hobbs again from aer. 

James Hobbs: From a technical angle, I think one of the most impactful things you can do, beyond making sure that your code is optimised and is running at the right times, at the right place, is simply to consider using a content delivery network. And for your listeners who aren't familiar with a content delivery network, a CDN is something that all of us have interacted with at one point or another, probably without realising. In the traditional way of serving or having a website, you've got some service somewhere in a data centre somewhere. When someone types your website address in, it goes and fetches that information from the web server and back comes a web page in the simplest sense. 

James Hobbs: Now, if your website servers live in Amsterdam and your users on the west coast of America, that's a big old trip for that information to come back and forth, and it's got to go through lots of different hops, uses up lots of energy. A Content Delivery Network is basically lots and lots of servers dotted all over the planet in all of the major cities and things like that can keep a copy of your website. So that if someone from the West Coast of America says, "Oh, I'm really interested in looking at this w ebsite.", types the address in, they get the copy from a server that might be 10,20, 50 miles away from them, instead of several thousand across an ocean. 

James Hobbs: So it loads quicker for the user, which is great from a user experience, SEO, but it's also great from an energy point of view, because it's coming from somewhere nearby and it's not having to bounce around the planet. That's one thing that you could do that will make a massive and immediate impact commercially and from a sustainability point of view. 

Paul Marden: So there's another example of something that you can do that has very little impact on the experience of the website. In fact, it massively improves the user experience of the website, takes relatively little effort, but offers a huge improvement. Those are all things that we've done to one individual website. Let's talk a little bit about how we bake that into our process. In a 2022 article in the Harvard Business Review about how sustainability efforts fall apart, they recommend embedding sustainability by design into every process and trade off decision making. I found that language really interesting. It's similar to the language used widely in technology and security that was popularised during the launch of the EU General Data Protection Legislation, which talks a lot about having a security by design approach. 

Paul Marden: So taking this idea of designing sustainability into every process and trading off the decision making, we've incorporated it into our sales proposal, writing, designing and testing processes. Our people responsible for selling need to bake sustainability into the contract. We want to hold ourselves and our clients accountable for the sometimes difficult decisions around meeting a sustainability target. So we'll discuss that target at the beginning of the project and then hold ourselves to that throughout the design and build process, thereby not needing to do all the remediations that we've just done on the other website, because it's typically much easier, quicker, cheaper for us to implement a lot of those things. The first time through the project, as opposed to as a remediation at the end. We've also baked sustainability testing into our process. 

Paul Marden: No site goes live without having been tested by both website carbon and eco grader to make sure that the site meets the criteria that we set out at the beginning of the work. So we've thought a lot about how we can improve what we do and we've started to go back and remediate over some of the work that we've done more recently to make improvements. But my learning journey hasn't been entirely smooth. There are challenges that I've hit along the way. I think there's a few interesting challenges that are to be expected as you're going about learning things that I wanted to share. For example, we've done work to remediate the scores of one of our sites and been super excited with the impact score. 

Paul Marden: I mean, went from bottom of the Fs to A+, only to deploy those changes into production and it didn't move the dial at all on the production website. And that was heartbreaking. Once we looked into that in more detail, thinking that we've done loads of changes, move the dial such a dramatic amount, only to launch it into the wild and it barely touched things. What we realised that in the test environment that we used, we had password protection in place and the website carbon and Ecograder were testing the password screen, not the actual homepage underneath it. So there was a lesson learned for us. The other area where we've made lots of learnings is during the survey when we created our sustainability benchmark. We've seen test results so good that they can't be explained. We've seen somebody hitting 100 on Ecograder. 

Paul Marden: We've also seen scores that were contradictory on Ecograder and Website Carbon, and also scores that have dropped dramatically. When we first tested in August and did a validation test checked last week, we're still working our way through these wrinkles and I think some of it is because we're looking at many hundreds of websites rather than trying to learn by testing and improving just one site. But beyond the kind of technical challenges, there remain some things that I simply don't understand. And my mission going forward is to fill those gaps. Firstly, while both Ecograder and Website Carbon use the same underlying principles and tools to calculate CO2 emissions, they often can and do give different results. 

Paul Marden: Not just in the fact that one is A+, a F score and the other is out of 100, but that the basic page sizing in kilobytes and consequently the CO2 can and often is different depending on which tool you look at. And I don't understand why that is, and I need to look into that. And I'm sure we'll come back to the podcast and talk more about that once I do understand it better. But the other problem is that I'm struggling with the size of the problem and the size of the prize. There's no doubt in my mind that making these improvements is the morally right thing to do, and commercially it's right as well, because it improves your outcomes on the website as well as the sustainability. 

Paul Marden: I'm just struggling with the business case, because if I had an unlimited budget, I do make every change in business that improves the sustainability posture of the business. But most marketers, most people that listen to this podcast don't have an infinite budget. They have a very finite budget, and so they have to put their budget to work where it's going to have the most impact. And what's the return on investment of spending 5k on improving the website versus changing light bulbs to leds, or moving away from gas powered water heaters in the outside toilets by the penguins? It's really difficult at the moment for me to be able to understand where this is the right and sensible investment of sustainability funding within an organisation. So I've shared my learning journey over the year. What about you? What can you do next? 

Paul Marden: For one last thought, let's head back to the conversation between Kelly and Lucy and Sue from Holkham. 

Kelly Molson: Are there any advice that you could share with our listeners in terms of how they start or begin to look at sustainability? 

Lucy Downing: Interesting. I was chatting with Lord Leicester yesterday about the subject and were sort of agreeing that I think you definitely need to know where you are, particularly as a business. You know where you are, because then you can set your goals in a realistic fashion. And I think the one thing to remember is that it has to be realistic, because you need to set goals that you can financially deliver, because if they're not financially viable, then you're not going to be here as a business to deliver them. And what we're also finding and talking to other businesses that actually quite a lot of the sustainability gains that you can make are actually in financial ones too, because you probably cut down on some of your resources that you're using, you'll think better, you'll work smarter. 

Lucy Downing: So it's just, I think that's something to definitely remember, that it has to be sustainable in all ways, socially, financially and environmentally. That's definitely some key advice. And I think be authentic. There's a lot of talk around greenwashing. Don't be guilty of thinking, wow, this is something we really should do and we're going to do it and just talk about it. It has to be authentic. So really think about where you can make the biggest changes environmentally for sustainability and focus on those and just make sure. Yeah, it's like us really. We're saying we're launching our sustainability strategy, but actually for the past ten years, we've now we've got 100 acre solar farm, we've got anaerobic digester, we heat the hall and all of our businesses with woodchip, so we've got our biomass boilers. 

Lucy Downing: So we've been doing it for quite a long time without telling anyone. But what we're now doing is saying, actually, that's not even enough, we need to up it further. So, yeah, that's the thing. I think it just has to be authentic and realistic. 

Sue Penlington: Yeah. And from my point of view, I'm a bit of a doer do and not a talker, so don't get bogged down. It could be absolutely overwhelming. And I think when I was first approached by my boss here, I was just like, wow. Because it isn't just rubbish, it's every single business. 

Sue Penlington: It's huge. But from my point of view, small differences can make a really big impact and keep chipping away at it because solutions are out there. There's loads of people doing really cool things. And, you know, every night I'm on Google looking up something else or going down another rabbit hole because I've seen something on Twitter. So for me, every day is a school day. But, yeah, get stuck in and collaborate with other like minded people. You know, nowadays you're not considered swampy because you're talking about sustainability. 

Sue Penlington: Well, you know, it's totally on brand, isn't it? And let's not reinvent the wheel. If we can learn from other people, then let's do that. I mean, go for it. Literally, every single individual can make a difference. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, Sue, that's. Yeah, you've just got me right there, sue. And I think what you said about collaborating and learning from people, that has been something that's so key this year. People are so willing to share their plans, they're so willing to share what they're doing and how they're doing things. Especially within this sector, there's always somebody that's doing or, you know, a couple of steps ahead of you that you can learn from. And people are so willing to kind of give up that advice and their time at the moment as well. So definitely that's a key one for me. Ask people. Ask people for help. Ask people how to do things. 

Paul Marden: I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this episode, including Kelly, Lucy and Sue at Holkham, Polly at TFG and James at aer. Thanks to everyone that's helped me with this journey in the last year, the lovely clients we've talked to, the survey respondents, and my team at Rubber Cheese, Steve, Ben, Tom, Sinead, Wenalyn, and Oz, who've all worked really hard to benchmark the sector and to make continuous improvements to our client's sustainability. As you know, we're really experimenting with the podcast format at the moment, and if you like this or any of the other changes, I'd love to hear. And if you don't, then tough, go make your own podcast. Only joking. I'd love to hear. If you think we can make improvements, you can find me on X, @paulmarden and also on LinkedIn. 

Paul Marden: If you're at VAC this week, the Visitor Attraction Conference, then I'll be there with Oz and Andy. So come and say hi to us and I'll see you again in a couple of weeks time. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! 

• Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
• Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
• Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
• Learn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion rates
• Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report
 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us.

Show references:

https://ukthemeparkawards.com/winners 

https://ukthemeparkawards.com/sponsors

Watch the UK Theme Park Awards 2024 on YouTube.

Interviewed Guests:

Paul Kelly: BALPPA  

Neil Poulter: Thorpe Park
Ross Ballinger: Drayton Manor
Danielle Nicholls & Sophie Tickle: Alton Towers

Jennifer Howlett & Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: Legoland
 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sineadwaldron/

Sinead Kimberley is the Senior Client Success Manager of Rubber Cheese and has a background in digital marketing, engagement software and all things client satisfaction. She guides clients through the various stages of their project, ensuring they have the information they need when they need it, as well as being the link between our developers and clients.

https://x.com/MrTicketeer

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. 

Paul Marden:  Hello and welcome to our first Skip the Queue Season Six Rubber Cheese get together. And we've got a corker. Today, there's four of us virtually together for our meetup after having been together yesterday in real life at the UK Theme Park Awards. So that's what we're going to talk about today. 

Paul Marden: We're going to talk a little bit about all the cool stuff that we saw yesterday at Thorpe park and enjoyed those theme park awards. But before we do that, should we do some introductions? Because I think everyone knows me and others, don't they? 

Oz Austwick: I'm here again. 

Paul Marden: You can sound more pleased. Everyone will love you. I'm thrilled. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely thrilled. I couldn't wish to be anywhere nicer. Back in my office, not surrounded by monkeys. 

Paul Marden:  We are also joined by Sinead Kimberley, who is the Senior Client Success Manager here at Rubber Cheese. Say hi, Sinead, and tell everyone what you do. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, so I work with our clients and making sure they've got everything they need for the website and try and act as the voice of the client, essentially with our developers, so that what you ask for, they know how to make it technical. I can pass it back to you and make it all visible on the website and get everything done. 

Paul Marden: That you need the glue that binds us together. And today we are also joined by the probably I've got to prove this. I'm going to have to do the counting because I know that other people do count. I'm thinking Dom from Mary Rose for sure counts the number of times he's been there. 

Andy Povey: So am I. 

Paul Marden: But I think Andy Povey, roaving ticketing expert and gentleman of leisure, joins us today possibly as the most frequent guest on Skip the Queue. But today you get upgraded to co host status because you joined us. 

Andy Povey: Well, I feel honoured, Paul. Thank you. 

Oz Austwick: Is that actually an upgrade? 

Paul Marden: I definitely think co host is an upgrade. For sure. For sure. 

Oz Austwick: Speaking of co hosting, I'll just point out that also in this episode we have some interviews recorded at the awards, some with winners, some with prize givers. It'll make more sense in the YouTube version where you can actually see them. But if you're listening to this just as an audio podcast, you need to know that when the room gets noisy or you can hear people screaming in the background, that's a clip from Thorpe Park itself. So that's coming up throughout the podcast today. But as always we start with where we've been recently, other than Thorpe Park. 

Paul Marden: Why don't I start with you, Andy, because I know you've been on a few trips just recently with the family. Where's an attraction you've been to recently that sticks in your mind as being pretty cool? 

Andy Povey: So most recently was a couple of weekends ago. We took the kids Tower of London on a Sunday afternoon or a sunny Sunday afternoon. It's absolutely superb experience. We've been members of Historic Royal Palaces for six months, eight months, something like that. And it's one of those that just sits in the dusty corner of a drawer somewhere and didn't get used. So we dusted it off and said, "All right, let's go to the tower.". Brilliant experience, absolutely superb. The kids loved it and they really engaged with all of the interpretation there. And it's probably my third or fourth time of taking my ten year old girls there. And there's something new every time or something different every time that we haven't picked up on, we haven't seen so great experience. 

Paul Marden: I love it. And I love it going there with membership because I think when you go the first time, you get wowed by all the really big stuff, you know, the shiny jewels and all of that kind of good stuff. By the time you go there second or third time, you begin to notice some of the other stuff. There's some lovely little regimental museums hidden off in the corner. Aren't there lots to find in there? Which if you only go the once and you do it as a set piece, you don't necessarily notice it because you want to go and look at the court stuff. 

Andy Povey: Yeah, it's just the single visit. It's just a high pressure environment, isn't it? You want to catch everything, you want to get the best value out of it. I mean, we got there at 02:00 in the afternoon. I don't think I'd have done that if I was just paying for the single day entry. 

Paul Marden: What about you, Sinead? Where have you been recently? 

Sinead Kimberley: Mine is up north, Wyresdale Park. And it's just an outdoor park, so not kind of a ticket place that you need to kind of buy a ticket for. But I loved it because when went, it felt like we'd just gone into a normal park, but you felt like you were at some kind of holiday camp and you could hear kids playing in the water on the paddle boards and the kayaks and then you had all the dogs running around and then you had the hikers going past you to go up. And we did go for a walk. So went, I think it was maybe two and a half hours up to the peak and it was just lovely to see all the families as well on a sunny day. Rare up in Lancaster. No rain for once. 

Sinead Kimberley: And, yeah, it was just a lovely place to be. You had a really nice feel of just people having fun and enjoying nature, which I think is really lovely. So, yeah, that was my favourite recently, besides Thorpe park, obviously. 

Paul Marden: Oz, what about you, mate? 

Oz Austwick: Goodrich Castle. We took the family away and we did a couple of nights glamping. Amazing place. I won't go on too much about that, but went to Goodrich Castle, just outside Ross on Wye, and it's the first time I've ever been. It's amazing. So many of these castles are just a series of small walls and there's nothing to actually see, but it's a proper castle. There's a moat and a bridge over it to get in, and there are dungeons and towers. You can go up and it's. Yeah, it's fantastic. If you're in the area, definitely go check it out. It's well worth it. 

Paul Marden: Lovely for the kids, isn't it? Because I do think, whilst it can be a really lovely day out to go to some of these castle ruins, it can be pretty tough to imagine as a ten year old what it was actually like and what that low wall over there actually was. 

Oz Austwick: There's definitely a trade off, though, because the more castle there is, the more the older kids love it. But I've got a four year old as well and I'm much happier when it's a flat bit of grass with a couple of stones in it than when she's trying desperately to scale up a spiral staircase that has been worn down for 500 years. 

Paul Marden: We did the wall around Warwick Castle a few years ago and I was at a heightened state of anxiety, I think it's fair to say. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. 

Paul Marden: So mine is the National Marine Aquarium, which is one of the Rubber Cheese clients down in Plymouth, and it's my first time of actually going and seeing it. And were there. We were coming back from a holiday in Cornwall, so it was a stop off on the way back and it was such a lovely stop off. My memory of it is we've been. We were avid watchers of the anime show that was on at Christmas last year. We really enjoyed watching that. Millie loves animals and she loved the turtle that was in the show last year. And went and I. We were there. It must have been ten minutes before closing time. They were trying to get people to leave. 

Paul Marden: We were one of the last families there, but were just sat on the floor, on the top floor looking into the tank where the turtle was. It was just so relaxing to just watch this turtle coming in and going out and the sharks that were in there. It was a really beautiful place. Lovely place. Really enjoyed that. So going from serene, calm aquarium, let's talk about Thorpe Park and the National Theme Park Awards. How was it for you guys? I hasten to add, I didn't make it Hyperia yesterday, which we did. 

Oz Austwick: Notice that Sinead and I did. 

Sinead Kimberley: My eyes were closed. 

Paul Marden: So what was Hyperia actually like then? Was it, was it as scary as I thought it might be? 

Oz Austwick: Yes. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yes. But also as incredible. Yeah. I was sad I didn't go on twice. 

Oz Austwick: You know, all of those feelings you get when you go on a roller coaster, that kind of the adrenaline and the sense of fear and all of that you get that gives you a bit of a buzz when you get off it. Imagine just dialing all of that up to eleven and. Yeah, mind blowing. It's too far, it's too big, it's too high, too scary. No, I'm glad I did it. 

Paul Marden: They did say yesterday, didn't they, when they were talking about the ride itself, that it was the tallest roller coaster in the UK, I think. But also the one with the most weightlessness in the UK, which I can't imagine how you measure it and I can't imagine what it's like. So can you put into words what the weightlessness was like? 

Oz Austwick: You know, if they've got these big over the shoulder harnesses that come down and you're in the seat and, you know you're safe, you know you're trapped and you're sitting with all your weight on a seat because that's just how you sit. Right? 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: But for most of this ride, you're not. You're somewhere in between the two. You're not sitting and you're not pushed up against the harness, you're just being flung around constantly. 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, yeah, it is weird. I think I didn't notice when the harness thing you get is different to the normal one, so you don't have that big thing pushing your shoulders back. It just goes around your waist and then there's like a bar you can hold in front. It is safe, we can confirm because we are here, but it did make you feel like you weren't quite as stuck to something as normal. And then add to that you were moving faster, and you were dropping from higher heights. You realise that you were still falling, which you don't normally do on a roller coaster. Normally you realise you're falling and then you're done, whereas this, you realise you're falling. You start to be like, okay, but I'm still safe. And then you maybe open your eyes and you look around this I couldn't. 

Sinead Kimberley: I carried on realising I was falling a lot longer. You really felt it in your body. 

Oz Austwick: That first peak where you go and it starts to move, and then it literally, it takes you up and you're lying backwards and you're going up, and you can just about see the track ahead of you up there. And then you get to the top, and it's such a tight curve that as you drop, you can't see the track, and you just drop. Yeah. 

Sinead Kimberley: I loved it, though. 

Paul Marden: Should we go back to the podcast and move away from therapy session? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, we can come back to therapy later, though, right? Because I think I need it. 

Paul Marden: So yesterday was the third year that we've sponsored one of the awards, so it was the third time I've been to the awards. Third time it was in real life, fifth year of running, and it was just lovely, wasn't it? It was such a nice industry get together. I think you were commenting this morning, Andy, on LinkedIn, about the networking effect of it. 

Andy Povey: Yeah. The industry we're in is a very physical, actual industry. People go to attractions because they want to do something so well. Virtual is great, and digital is great, obviously. I mean, it's what I've been doing for a very long time. There's nothing that really gets to the heart of what this industry is all about better than the face to face physical interactions. And that was a real sort of epiphany away, I think I said on a message to someone the other day, yesterday, that's just really important. It was the first event I've been to since May. Very good. 

Oz Austwick: Good. I thought it was a real eye opener how you kind of going there as an exhibitor. And it was my first time. I kind of assumed that I'd stand next to a stall and people would come over and I'd try and talk to them, and all they'd want was whatever free merch I'd have on this. But it wasn't like that. It was like being in a big room with a bunch of people who were friends and they were happy you were there, too, and it was just a really lovely experience. It didn't feel like a corporate trade show type event, which is exactly what I was expecting. 

Paul Marden: And it is fiercely competitive. So everybody does want to win in the categories they're in. 

Oz Austwick: Yes. But Alton Towers wins them all. 

Paul Marden: Right, so I am here with Sophie and Danielle from Alton Towers. It's been a successful day for you guys, hasn't it? Did you manage to count the number of awards or did you just lose count? 

Danielle Nicholls: I think it was a level, maybe round and fair. 

Paul Marden: Definitely double figures. Definitely double figures. We saw both of you going up and down the stage. Up and down the stage. Highlight, which was the one for you, Danielle, that you really appreciated. 

Danielle Nicholls: You know, what it was between two. So super proud of everything we did with Nemesis. Like Nemesis Reborn has been such a momentous campaign throughout. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Danielle Nicholls: And so I'm super proud of that one. But for me, I think the one that has my heart in, it's our community award. So I was super proud to play silver for that one. 

Paul Marden: It was brilliant to get you up on the stage, bring the band back together again with you and Ross up there. And Sophie, what about you? What was the biggest highlight for you? 

Sophie Tickle: So I was really keen for the Best Marketing Campaign purely because I know how hard our team works on it. So I was really kind of brutal. And the nemesis story is just incredible. So we felt like that was. That was a really good win for us. And then best ride storytelling is always a nice one just because we feel like it just captures everything. The resources. 

Paul Marden: I really enjoyed watching when we had the. ad campaigns that came on and we saw everything that everyone had produced and you could see the storytelling that goes into something like nemesis reborn. And then the room was just quiet at the end of it because were all just captured by all of these videos. 

Danielle Nicholls: Everyone could have won that one, genuinely. But we're so proud. Like, Alton is such a lovely, friendly community in itself. Like, there's hundreds of people that work all the towers. Like, you can never just put it down to one person. It's such a big team effort. Everyone pulls together for everything. So, like, Alton After Dark winning golf best of event, that was amazing as well. I'm super proud of that one. 

Paul Marden: Everyone loves an after dark event, don't they? Yeah, it's awesome. Awesome. 

Danielle Nicholls: They do. 

Paul Marden: Thank you for joining me, ladies. It's been really good to talk to you all. Cheers. So, yes, it is fair to say that Alton Towers did make a lot of trips onto the stage. Danielle and her yellow jacket was seen going up on stage quite a lot yesterday. But there's a real diversity of different attractions that were nominated. So I think they said more than 30, nearly 40. I think it was attractions that were nominated. 20 attractions overall. Yeah, 20 attractions overall. One prizes. There was one that was really close to my heart. Brean Theme Park. It was where my granddad and my dad played golf 45 years ago. I would go to Brean Leisure Park, as it was then, and go down helter skelter all the time. So to see that up on the awards for a nomination was really lovely. 

Paul Marden: And there's quite a few other smaller attractions like that got nominated. Talk a little bit about the categories or the memories that we got yesterday that stuck in our minds. Andy, was there a category for you that you were really impressed by? 

Andy Povey: Yeah, there was. For me, it was the Accessibility initiative the Katapult sponsored. Obviously, Merlin were very heavily represented in the nominations for that category. I think there were five out of the eight nominations were for either for Merlin Parks or things that Merlin were doing as a bigger or as a cross group activity. But there were also some really quite simple things from much smaller parks. So noticeably there was a Camel Creek, again, down in deepest, darkest Cornwall, who were nominated for their changing places facility. And that just really brought home to me. Yes, it's important that Merlin, as the largest operator in the country, are leading the way and they've got the resources to put behind this and all that kind of stuff. But it's not just about doing those big things. 

Andy Povey: Small things can make a difference and can make a really significant difference. And that's really key to. Was one of the key messages in the industry, I think. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I thought it was an interesting category. First time that it appeared in the awards, as you say, Katapult sponsored it, and it was quite a nice match between Katapult and that category because they've been doing quite a lot of work in designing spaces and attractions that are more accessible to people. So that was really. It was quite a nice match between sponsor and category. And as you say, there was some really lovely stories to be told around. What was there? I loved there was a Merlin initiative where they were taking the characters and the stories of the parks out to hospitals and places where they were terminally ill children, which there's lots of stories that have existed for a long time of kids being taken to the parks themselves. 

Paul Marden: But what about when they can't make it to the park and can you bring the magic of the park to them? I thought that was a really lovely idea. 

Andy Povey: Magic tour, they call that. And it's actually run by the Merlin charity, Merlin's Magic Wand. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. It's a cracking idea, isn't it? Yeah. But then you take it down to the changing places toilets and the initiatives to make places and make it clear what the accessibility of the place actually is, because we know that's really important, that people that have accessibility needs will not go to new places if they're not completely sure that it is accessible to them. And having a space on your website and winning an award, or even being shortlisted for an award for having that information on your website, I think is amazing. It's a cracking idea and there's so much that the sector is doing that has opened my eyes just in the last year, from the M&H show that were at six months ago to just seeing some of the stuff yesterday, thought it was brilliant. 

Oz Austwick: Shall we have another interview from the awards? Paul caught up with another Paul. Paul Kelly from BALPPA. 

Paul Marden: So, Paul, you've just come from the first session of giving out awards and you on stage giving out bridge award. 

Paul Kelly: I was doing the best theme park for toddlers, both in the small category. And the large category. 

Paul Marden: And who was winning? 

Paul Kelly: Well, unsurprisingly, I think it's not the first time they've won small categories won by Paulton's Park. And considering the amount of investment they've done, and I'm not surprised, they also won the large as well. So, really good taking off. 

Paul Marden: It is, yeah. We were talking on our table that they've been doing this now for a very long time, able to get up on stage and win awards. Still, they must really be investing in what they're doing. 

Paul Kelly: Continuous investments. I mean, if you get a chance like I do, look behind the scenes, they're investing infrastructure, their staff, for how they run the park, but think of ten years ahead. So, yeah, incredible family, incredible journey. So, yeah, good luck. 

Paul Marden: Behind the scenes, Pickworld must be quite the operation. 

Paul Kelly: Yeah. I mean, again, well, one of the things they've done, although it is photographers, they do very well in bandits now, builds them on that because they have invested in trying. I don't think they might be saying, "They do very well in bandits now," builds them on that because they have invested in trying. I don't think they might be saying. 

Paul Marden: That it is just about having. 

Paul Kelly: Well, but, yeah, paddlings are well deserved. 

Paul Marden: Amazing. Well done. Thank you. 

Paul Kelly: Yeah, no problem. 

Paul Marden: Sinead, what about you? What was the category that jumped out to you? 

Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, so for me, I think it was the sustainability, partly because it's something that I am kind of working on, looking at a lot at the minute with clients and also a thing that I've been kind of getting myself up to speed on within the industry, because I think everyone talks about sustainability, but often it will be either a really big initiative or it's something that's just what everybody else is doing. So, you know, more recyclable packaging or that kind of thing. And I really loved. There was a roller coaster, I think it was Greenwoods, was it, Andy? 

Andy Povey: Yes. 

Sinead Kimberley: They had like a people powered or counterbalanced roller coaster. And I was sat on a table and kind of asked what that was. And the person next to me explained that it doesn't use electricity, it just uses people. So as you're going up, you're powering people, going around the roller coaster, essentially. And it just sounds incredible. I've never heard of anything like that before. And I was also talking to some of the people about the sustainability of a website and something that we don't think about. You think about how many clicks to get tickets sold or to get you to see the video or whatever, but you don't necessarily think about the server powering every single click, empowering every single page view. 

Sinead Kimberley: And so to kind of see how different places have worked with sustainability, whether it's the reusable cups or roller coaster that's literally using people to power it and then enjoy it at the same time, was really interesting to kind of complete my picture of what sustainability looks like in the industry and all the different things it could touch on from the website to literally on the park itself. And when the parks are by nature not going to be the most, you know, energy efficient, maybe because you've got these massive roller coasters you need to power safely. It's really interesting to see that the small things, like you mentioned, Andy, with accessibility, the small things really can altogether make a really big impact on how you as an organisation can be more sustainable. 

Sinead Kimberley: So, yeah, that was really eye opening, I think, seeing those different nominees. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. 

Oz Austwick: I think the one that won it as well is a lovely example of however much you ask people to do something because it's the right thing to do. If you actually make it in their interests to do it, suddenly it becomes much more viable. So you can. Everyone's got recycling bins, but if you've got this reverse vending machine where you put your empty plastic bottles in and you get something back out of that, then clearly people are going to do. If you were there with your kids, they're going to be collecting bottles they find lying around and making sure they go in the right bin because they get something. 

Paul Marden:  And it wasn't just a little something, was it? It wasn't just a couple of tokens. You could win some pretty amazing prizes out of it. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. Yeah. 

Andy Povey: Yeah. I was at the Latitude Festival last year and they were charging a temp deposit on every waxed paper cup. And the number of kids running around collecting huge stacks of these cups. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. 

Andy Povey: And they were even going into the bins and taking them out of the bins, which I'm not sure was the real driver behind, but they were making. It must have been hundreds of pounds. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. It was the same. I used to go to the rugby quite a lot before my rugby team disappeared. And they would charge a one pound deposit on plastic reusable cups and you could either keep it as a one pound cup or give it back and get your pound back. And most people just. They'd have a few beers and they'd leave them. But at the end of the match, kids, just like you say, would be running around collecting these and they'd be walking away with 20, 30 quid's worth of cups. You know, what an amazing thing for the kids to do. Just makes it worth their while, doesn't it? 

Paul Marden: So I'm here with Jennifer and Charlotte from Legoland. So you've been at the awards today with us. How's it been? Was it a successful day for you guys? 

Jennifer Howlett: Pretty successful, yeah. A few wins across the category. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So what. What categories did you. Did you get awards for? 

Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: So we've got new band, which I was Ninja tonight, which is really exciting. That was our summer first year. 

Jennifer Howlett: We've done it as well. So it's really exciting to see that. 

Paul Marden: So I love Ninjago. The ride itself. What's the event all about? 

Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: So, literally, we had loads of different things going on. We had dragons, drumsy, we had loads of different entertainments. We had characters, meet and greets, and were new characters, which was really exciting. Aaron and Sora. So, yes, that was great. And that finished quite long ago. Sarah's missing to see that. 

Paul Marden: Excellent, excellent and highlight of the day for you guys. What did you see that has really got you excited? 

Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: Do you know what, thing is for me with the map? I look after all things catholic events and stuff, and that was quite nice that you see. 

Paul Marden: It's funny because everyone was laughing a little bit. I know award for the maps, but actually, the maps and the attraction is so important. It is, it is. If you walk in and you don't get a map, it's like, How do you figure out where you're going, you're always going and looking at the map on the wall instead of having it in your hand. So, yeah, it's a bit of a laugh, but actually I think it's a really important. Yeah. Lovely to meet you guys. Thank you for joining us. Cheers. 

Paul Marden: So, Oz, tell us what was the standout moment for you yesterday? 

Oz Austwick: I thought it was really lovely to see in amongst all of these theme parks and massive organisations getting up there to win awards, that there was an award specifically for content creator of the year, that these people are out there producing content that literally markets and drives visitors to these attractions to go on these rides and they were actually recognised a change. And I thought that was both a lovely thing as a concept, but also as a YouTuber myself, within a very small and specific niche, it was really nice to get to chat to some other YouTubers from an equally small niche and spend a bit of time with them. I thought it was really. It was lovely. So I just want to shout out to Andy from Coaster Crazy and Digital Daniel, lovely people. 

Sinead Kimberley: Thank you, Andy, for helping me on the roller coaster as well. It was needed. 

Paul Marden: You were with those influencers, weren't you, during the awards itself? I think. I think it's a bit of a challenge having a daytime awards, that it can be a bit of a struggle to get some life out of the audience. And George, the compare does graft to try and get us into the mood. But I've noticed every year I've been there that if you sit anywhere near the influencers, that's usually the naughty table with lots going on. 

Sinead Kimberley: They were very well behaved. 

Oz Austwick: Because you were sat with them at the award. We went with them round the park later and it was lovely to see people visiting the park, recognizing them and coming up to say hi and that this is genuinely a thing that really works. Yeah, I just thought it was. It was great. Let's recognize these guys because I doubt any of them are making a full time living out of this. They're doing it in their own time because they love her. So if you're. If you're from a theme park, support them a little bit more, get them in there, let them. Let them do this stuff because it does benefit you. 

Paul Marden: You say they're not making a full time living. I can't remember what the couple are, Andy, who have every year at theme park awards, they're never there to collect their award because they're always somewhere in Florida or California, because September is a perfect time for them to go and do all the recordings. I guess parks are a little bit quiet. Weather's still good. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, but that's the thing. Maybe they go in then because it's cheaper. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. Still having a good time recording to make a good living.

Oz Austwick: You can make a good living from social media, but it's pretty rare. 

Paul Marden: So I am going to claim. Yeah. Executive prerogative and I'm going to take two memories and talk about them. 

Oz Austwick: That is definitely cheating. 

Paul Marden: So I'm going to talk first about the. The main awards, the best theme park, which, strangely, last year were at Chessington, won by Chessington. This year were at Thorpe park, won by Thorpe park. 

Oz Austwick: What are you saying? 

Paul Marden: I don't know. I don't know. But what I am. I guess what I am saying was what I really loved was the recognition of the whole thought pop team. Now, it wasn't the whole thought pub team because that would probably be hundreds of people and the stage wouldn't take it, but we had a little kind of troop of different people from across the park come and collect the award and I just. I really liked that. I thought that was a lovely thing to see those people being recognized. 

Neil Poulter: And that's exactly. It's a team effort, there's no doubt about it. Obviously, many people in the room, but the people behind the scenes as well. And we've had a fantastic year. It's been a journey. You don't just arrive at winning best theme park and best new attraction. It's a journey that we've been on for the last three and a half years. We haven't previously won that award, so I think it's testament to where we've come from, but hopefully where we're going as well. So, super excited. 

Paul Marden: Highlight for you? 

Neil Poulter: I think, obviously, Best Theme Park. I think winning the big one is something that, you know, is. Feels like new territory for us, but I think, you know, we deserve our seat at the table. 

Neil Poulter: But, you know, across the awards, you know, best new attraction, obviously, for Hyperia is that also some entertainment in terms of stitches and Friday nights, which we're so proud of, you know, a fantastic maze. The team that do our social, which, again, you know, allows us to speak with our audience, our most passionate audience and really, you know, them winning the gold was also a huge highlight for me as well. 

Paul Marden: Awesome. So time for some food and then some fun after Hyperia. And here's some screaming. 

Neil Poulter: Yeah, absolutely. Can't wait to ride it. I actually wrote it yesterday for about only the 6th time and I went on the back. It was amazing. But, yeah, hoping people that haven't even experienced it yet will get a chance to. And if people have, which I'm sure many have, they will come back and enjoy it. And the sun's shining, so what better time to be at the Thorpe Park? 

Paul Marden: So congratulations, Neil. Thank you for talking. 

Neil Poulter: Thank you very much. You're welcome. 

Paul Marden: But then the other memory for me was our own award. We sponsor the Social Media Content Category and I nearly missed my queue. I was quite happy sitting there listening to all of these parks being nominated, thinking, well, that's interesting. Well, that sounded very good. And then I realized it was me and I was supposed to get on stage and hand the award out, so there's a little rush to the stage. But what I really liked, it was lovely to hand over the gold award to Thorpe Park, meet the social media team there. 

Paul Marden: But it was also really nice because it was an opportunity to meet a couple more Skip the Queue alumni, Danielle and Ross, they used to work together at Drayton Manor and as we've already said, Danielle is now at Thorpe Towers and was up and down like a fiddler's elbow on the staircase yesterday. 

Oz Austwick: She's a full time award collector. 

Paul Marden: But it was lovely to get the band back together again up on stage. Handsome. Some bronze and silver awards out to Ross and Danielle. I really enjoyed that. It was just nice. It's really nice because Kelly first met them at the awards three years ago. Again, she was sat on the naughty table at the back with the two of them making lots of noise and enjoying themselves. But just, we got immediately the sense of enjoyment and fun that the two of them had and that they bring to the work that they do. And it was lovely to see that recognised yesterday on stage because we have nothing to do as sponsors of the award, we have nothing to do with choosing who the winners actually are as a team of esteemed judges. And then the public vote also counted this time. 

Paul Marden: But, yeah, to see, to see the growth of people that have been on the podcast, their careers growing, and then seeing them back on stage again yesterday, that was really lovely. I enjoyed that. 

Paul Marden: It's a bit weird, isn't it, because the awards are in the daytime, it's. All a little bit where we can. You always come and you bring the energy to the room, don't you? Yes. We got the band back together up on the stage with you and Danielle. 

Ross Ballinger: Yeah. 

Paul Marden: Both in the social media category. So that was nice. To see what have you got in your hands at the moment? 

Ross Ballinger: I've actually just got pleasure Wood Hills award because I'm representing them today as well as part of the luping UK contingency. 

Paul Marden: Okay, so what did they win? 

Ross Ballinger: They got bronze for Best Theme Park. 

Paul Marden: Oh, wow. 

Ross Ballinger: Which they have overhauled their map this year, which is really fantastic. So we're getting too excited never to excited about. 

Paul Marden: No. 

Ross Ballinger: But maps are a great addition to any park. 

Paul Marden: Do you know when you walk in the gates and you don't get the map and it's like, oh, people have got it. Yeah. People will complain. Absolutely. And everyone loves a map. 

Ross Ballinger: They take a lot of. It's no easy task. They can take six to twelve months to get a really, you know, popping man. Yeah, yeah. And it's obviously all down to the illustrators and everything like that. 

Paul Marden: And the life of the park as well, because you're telling stories. 

Andy Povey: Oh, yeah. 

Ross Ballinger: You've got to bring the paper to life. 

Paul Marden: So highlight for today for you. 

Ross Ballinger: Highlight, obviously, being on the show, on stage, being on stage for the social media category. Close to my heart, that kind of category. I love socials. I love doing what we do on socials. And it's a big core team for Drayton Manor. 

Paul Marden: Is it really? 

Ross Ballinger: It's the whole team that really. It doesn't really channel itself into one person. We have a great executive, Morgan McHenry, that looks after the top end of all the social media. So she's the goddess that orchestrates it all. But she will be. She will say that it's not just her, but everyone just contributed to making sure our social media channels are like, just absolutely fantastic and great for people to watch. 

Paul Marden: I think they're most authentic, aren't they? When you get everybody involved all across the park, all the people telling their little stories and showcasing what party's like. 

Ross Ballinger: That's what it's all about. A lot of other departments do their job. They think they're just having fun on TikTok again. But we're not, you know, we're really like behind the scenes thinking of content, going out, filming the content, you know, putting the content together, scheduling it to go out. 

Paul Marden: It doesn't just happen by itself. 

Ross Ballinger: It doesn't happen. 

Paul Marden: You don't just walk out with a phone and get yourself a smash hit video that just goes viral. 

Ross Ballinger: Well, the more fun we have, the more engaging it is. So it's our job to be fun. You have fun. 

Paul Marden: It's a tough life. Right. Lovely. See you again. Bringing the alumni back together again. 

Ross Ballinger: Great. Thank you. Thank you. 

Paul Marden: So that was the UK theme park awards yesterday, but that's not the only thing happening in the industry at the moment, is it, Andy? Something big and important is happening next week. 

Andy Povey: You mean my trip to Amsterdam? 

Paul Marden: Well, I was thinking more about the IAAPA conference that was at Amsterdam as opposed to your particular trip to the. 

Andy Povey: Yeah, so it's the 20th 30th instance of the IAAPA Europe show, IAAPA Europe Expo, this time taking place in the RAI at Amsterdam, or in Amsterdam from Tuesday to Thursday next week. Lots of great stuff, lots of great people. All about the attractions industry. There might be an occasional beer or two while we're there on the short. 

Paul Marden: I think it is important to note for Mrs. Povey, if she actually does listen in, that this is an important work event and there will be lots of networking. And if you're not networking, you're not working. We know that. However, it is also worth mentioning that on numerous occasions yesterday I heard you talking to people about the after parties that you were planning to attend. And yeah, it's a busy social calendar that you've got signed up to next week. 

Andy Povey: It certainly is. I think I might need to cut down on the pre party work to give time for the after party to take the best. 

Paul Marden: So you're going to enjoy yourself and do lots of important networking next week. But I guess the call to action for listeners today is if you are planning on being at IAAPA next week, hunt down Andy. He's a tough guy to miss and everybody knows him. So go and find him, have a chat with him and enjoy yourselves in IAAPA and we will be back in two weeks time. Thank you very much guys. It's been delightful having a foursome as co hosts and I think we get to do this again. 

Oz Austwick: I quite like this. We should do this more often. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! 

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 25th September 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.monkey-forest.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-torlop-261a10119/

Josh is a passionate marketer and PR professional currently working at Trentham Monkey Forest in Staffordshire. As the sole member of the Marketing & PR team, he manages, oversees, and delivers all communication strategies for one of the UK’s most fascinating woodlands. This unique role requires him to wear many hats, as he strives to create best-in-class campaigns across multiple fronts.

Trentham Monkey Forest is unlike any other place in the UK. It's a 60-acre woodland where 140 Barbary macaques live freely, mirroring their natural habitat. This distinct feature is the heart of the attraction, and Josh is driven to share this "sparkle" with as many people as possible, all while working within a modest budget. A visit to the forest, which Josh first experienced with his aunt in 2007 as a child, left a lasting impression on him. Now, he aims to ensure that visitors create similarly special and lasting memories at this remarkable destination, all for an affordable entry fee—an essential element of his marketing strategy.

In 2024, Monkey Forest reached a record-breaking year for footfall, and as the year draws to a close, Josh has been collaborating with Oz on creating 'out of the box' campaigns that break the 'fourth wall' between the brand and the consumer. Reflecting on a PR stunt he strategized and executed in 2022, which went globally viral and reached hundreds of millions worldwide, Josh considers it a personal career highlight. His enthusiasm for being a one-man marketing team at such a unique destination continues to fuel his innovative and ambitious approach.

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. So welcome to Season 6. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, welcome back. 

Paul Marden: How are we back already? Because it feels like only yesterday were recording the tail end of season five. So where's my summer break? It just seems to have gone. 

Oz Austwick: It does seem a little bit like we've not really had much time off. We must have. Must have had a bit of a break. 

Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Because I've got a list. As long as you are, of all the places that I've been over the summer holidays, where have you been? 

Oz Austwick: Like you? Lots of places. Lots of castles, a few stately homes and one or two more unusual places. But I think if I had to pick one, I went to Highclere. 

Oz Austwick: Okay. I love it. I'm a massive Downton Abbey fan. I tried so hard not to like Downton Abbey and just utterly failed and got sucked into this wonderful world of 1920s stately home. The lives going on upstairs and down. And you know what? It's just such a good series and to go and experience the place and see all these wonderful familiar areas with my 15 year old daughter, who is even more of a fan than me, was just amazing. 

Paul Marden: Brilliant. 

Oz Austwick: We might just have been blaring theme music out of the car on the way down the drive. How about you? 

Paul Marden: So where have I been? We went to We The Curious back in Bristol, which has just reopened after two years of being closed. And that was just amazing. I took my daughter there with two of her friends and we had a whale of time wandering around there. We've been to the Roman Baths down in Bath. That was quite fun. That was a very hot day, but we had a lovely time just wandering around in the baths. We really enjoyed that. The one standout thing that I did that does not come around very often, where it comes around once every four years. We went to the Olympics, so went and experienced handball of all games. Never watched a handball game in my life, but it was amazing. It was just so much fun. 

Oz Austwick: I don't think I know anything about handball. 

Paul Marden: Well, I was expecting something a bit like basketball or netball. No, not at all. No. This was full on contact sport. It's like rugby, but inside and throwing people around. It was awesome. It was so fast paced. We saw it was France v Germany, so it was absolutely stacked in the stadium. But they captured the spirit of London 2012. It felt just like the part, the atmosphere that we felt when went to the main stadium, the athletic stadium during 2012 but with a french twist. 

Oz Austwick: Not your first Olympics, then? 

Paul Marden: No, not my first. But I didn't see Usain Bolt this time. I did see him 2012. He was only about a spec on the other side of the stadium at the time, but no, we had a great time and there was just so much about the way that they organised it. It's a feat of human engineering, isn't it, to put that on for two weeks stint. But they organised it so well and yeah, it was thoroughly enjoyable. 

Oz Austwick: So, speaking of events, we're going to one pretty soon, aren't we? I mean, it's not quite on the scale of the Olympics, but it's going to be glorious all the same. 

Paul Marden: Yes. So this will be my third National Theme Park Awards. I promise this year not to scream quite so loudly if I actually go one of the roller coasters whilst we're there. 

Oz Austwick: Well, I'm going with you, so I will record it. 

Paul Marden: I promise you. I screamed like a marine last year. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. So we'll be there. We're there officially as Rubber Cheese, aren't we? So, yes, if you're there, come over and say hi, we've got a stall, I think a stand and we might have some freebies. We'll definitely have some chocolates because it's a good excuse to have some chocolates. So come and find us and have some chocolates with us. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, it's an in real life experience, so come over and talk to us, give us your ideas. What can we do this season and what would you like us to talk about? Can we come to see ewing at your theme park? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, because we're doing a bit of that this season, aren't we? We've got a few lined up. 

Paul Marden: We do. We do. It was something that you said last at the end of Season 5 that you wanted to do differently, that we work in this attraction sector which is all about going and doing experiences and we spend the whole of the podcast sat in a square room with nothing much going on and without actually meeting people in real life. And wouldn't it be wonderful if we could actually record in real life with people? 

Oz Austwick: It's crazy not to. We're talking to people at these amazing places and I just get to sit in my own dodgy little converted office. But not this time. No. So you met a chap a little while ago at a conference, didn't you? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I met Josh from Trentham Monkey Forest, and he was presenting. I think if I'm right in saying this, it was the first time h. e's done a presentation at conference before, but I was blown away by him and his presentation, and he's a one man marketing machine for Trentham from his own slide. He tells this story about being the CMO and the social media executive and the website editor and all of these different hats that. That you have to wear when you're running marquee in a small business. That's Josh, and I just loved it. And I was really impressed with the way he was talking about the outcomes of what he had achieved as a result of the work that he was doing. It wasn't just about the activities that he was doing. 

Paul Marden: It was what difference that made to the organization as a result of him doing it, which I found really impressive. So I really wanted him on the podcast, and I jumped on a call with him and. And his first idea was, why don't you come and record it in the Monkey Forest? So here we are at the start of Season 6, and you've had a chance to go up there, haven't you? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. I mean, it is a little ironic that my favorite podcast. Sorry, my second favourite podcast, because obviously this is my favourite. My second favourite podcast is the Infinite Monkey Cage. So to get to go and record in what is essentially a cage with monkeys in itheme seemed like way too good an opportunity to pass up on. It was an amazing day. I try not to say too much about it because we've got the whole interview to come. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. But I'm assuming that everything went slickly and it was a well oiled machine and it's got the same production values as we would normally expect. 

Oz Austwick: No, not at all. I mean, I realised that there was potentially an issue when we. I got there and I found the place really easily. It was great. It was nicely signposted. I found the right place. The people in the car parks were hugely helpful. They sent me there. I parked up, a lovely lady took me to Josh. We got all the gear. We walked quite a long way into a forest full of monkeys, and then I realised I didn't have a camera with me. And of course, it's not an easy thing to go because we couldn't just leave all the gear with the monkeys and both walk back. But because I wasn't wearing official Trentham Monkey Forest clothing, they didn't want people to see me walking around in the woods off the path. So it became quite. 

Oz Austwick: So we figured it out, got the camera, got back, started setting everything up, and of course, because we're not sitting at desks I've got a lovely microphone that I wanted to put out in front of us, but you can't string a cable across a large open area where there are monkeys. 

Paul Marden: Health and safety issues with monkeys. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, well, absolutely. The fact is, I mean, we could have done it, but the monkeys would have probably just taken the microphone away. So there is, if I'm being honest, a little bit of wind noise because the microphone's slightly further from us than I hoped it would be. I've got Josh miked up, so it's only me that you struggle to hear. But that being said, I mean, what an amazing experience if you haven't been to Trentham Monkey Forest, go. We've talked about this a little before, but there's this kind of period, 100, 120 years ago when all of the great historic homes, these are amazing estates, suddenly started having to find other ways of making money. And you can look around and some of them have survived and some of them haven't. Some of them have just gone completely. 

Oz Austwick: Some were turned into flats and one was turned into a monkey forest, which just feels a little bit random. But, yeah, I mean, Josh is a really smart guy, very switched on, very articulate and very knowledgeable, and he's got his own monkey army. So. 

Paul Marden: I've got nothing to say to that other than we desperately got to listen to the rest of this interview. It's going to be so interesting. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, well, absolutely. But before we do, if you're listening and you have a thing going on and you'd like us to come and be part of it and record there, please do get in touch and let us know if you're doing something interesting in the visitor attraction sector. We'd love to talk to you. Or if there's just a pressing issue that you think isn't getting the exposure that it should be, then, yeah, let us know, because this isn't really about us, it's about the sector. And if we can help, then that would be amazing. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So we've got lined up for this season. We're going to do some in real life at conferences. So we're going to go to ASDC conference and do some in real life interviews there. We've been invited to some attractions already. So, you know, if you've got a conference and you'd love us to come along and do something in real life for the podcast, let us know if you'd like us to come to your attraction because you're running an event for Halloween or Christmas or whatever it is then let us know. We will chuckle the gear in the back of a car. We promise we will better prepared if we meet monkeys again. Can't promise that we'll better prepared for other animals or small children or whatever, but, you know, we'll do our best. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I mean, I'd be hesitant and promising I'd be more prepared, to be honest with you, but, you know, we'll do our best and we'll come up. 

Oz Austwick: With something on at the end of it, I'm sure. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. So, without any further ado, shall we get on to listening to the interview that you did with. With Josh athlete at Trenton Monkey forest? 

Oz Austwick: So welcome, Josh. Thanks very much for joining us. Regular listeners will probably be aware of a bit of wind noise on this one because for the first time, we're recording on location in a monkey forest. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah, it's the first time for me to be honest, because I'm just looking across our forest here and we've got three or four monkeys surrounding us. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I must admit it's a little bit odd, if I'm being honest. I'm used to sitting in an office, at a desk, and today I'm leaning on a tree surrounded by monkeys. 

Josh Torlop: It's giving me a little bit of power here. I'm not the host and I'm making you feel uncomfortable with these monkeys around us, but no, yeah, we're perfectly fine. The monkeys have their natural weariness intact of humans, so they won't bother us too much. They will simply live their monkey life around us. 

Oz Austwick: If you're listening to this on Spotify or through iTunes or anything like that, then please check out the YouTube video and you'll be able to see some of the monkeys that are currently watching us. So, as always, we tend to start with a couple of icebreaker questions. And now we're in Season 6, that's not going to change anytime soon. So I've got a couple of kind off the wall questions for you. 

Josh Torlop: Oh, here we go. 

Oz Austwick: What's the biggest animal that you think you could carry up a flight of stairs? 

Josh Torlop: Oh, that's a good question. So, when I was younger, I had a Labrador called Tommy who had a bit of a gut. 

Oz Austwick: Okay. 

Josh Torlop: So I'd say I'd carry Tommy, and that might be a very boring answer, but he could eat anything. We had two labradors, one called Blake and one called Tommy. And Tommy used to finish his food and eat Blake's food, so I would say Tommy. 

Oz Austwick: Okay, cool. Yeah, I reckon. I think you could carry a labrador. The next one is what film should be remade by the Muppets. 

Josh Torlop: Oh, that's an interesting one, isn't it? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. 

Josh Torlop: The Wolf of Wall Street. I'd love to see Kim the frog take on Wall street. How good would that be? 

Oz Austwick: That would be amazing. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah, that would be perfect. Because Margot Robbie's blonde. Miss Piggy was blonde. Not to say that Margot Robbie looks at all like Miss Piggy, but that's. Yeah, that'd work. 

Oz Austwick: I doubt she's a listener, if I can. So one of the things I really want to talk to you about, other than that this venue, which is quite unique, at least in the UK, is the challenges of being a one man marketing team. 

Oz Austwick: Let's start off. Just tell me a little bit about the monkey forest and how it became a thing. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah, certainly. So, Trentham Monkey Forest is one of four parks protecting Barbary macaques. That is a highly endangered species of primate. So there's less than 8000 in the wild. So we have two parks in France, one in Germany and one here in Staffordshire. Stokend Trentham Monkey Forest. And it started all the way back in 1969 in Kinzheim in the Alsace region. Listeners might remember Beauty and the Beast. That's where the town was famously sort of depicted. Oh, yeah, there we go. Yeah. Back to the Muppets. Well, yeah. But in terms of our journey, if you will, it was two french chaps, one called Jack Trinau and one called Gilbert de turquine, that basically sought this mission to protect this incredible species, monkey called Barbary macaques. 

Josh Torlop: So they wanted to create this fantastic concept where around 100 monkeys, 100 to 150, could simply be themselves in a forest completely, no interference from humans, in a way where it would be able to preserve the natural behaviours in order to facilitate possible reintroduction. 

Oz Austwick: Okay. 

Josh Torlop: So it was an incredible forward thinking concept. And you fast forward 40 years, they had to basically have to open two parks, another one in France in Rocamadour, and then another one in Germany in the sort of Lake Constance area, basically, because they sort of made the mistakes before us, basically. So they realised that once you have a lot of monkeys in a forest living how they would. They'd mate and they'd make. You'd end up with more monkeys. So they had to open more parks came this incredible conservation project for this one species, which makes us incredibly different, because their passion was engaging people with this primate in particular, by letting visitors to the area marvel at the incredible behaviours right in front of them from 2 meters away. 

Josh Torlop: But also, the monkeys having this, you know, this separation between human and primate, so their natural behaviours weren't deteriorated. So it was an incredible concept that here we are, 2005, we'll say we opened in Trentham, Stoke, and here we are, 2024, 19 years later, thriving, surviving, and I'm doing the marketing for it, which is incredible. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. So how do you end up as the marketing and pr manager of a monkey forest? 

Josh Torlop: So what you do is the year was, what, 2021? And I was looking for a role in marketing and I was scrolling through LinkedIn and Indeed, as you do when you're searching for a job. And I saw an advertisement for a marketing and PR officer at Trentham Monkey Forest. And it brought me back to when I was seven years old, my auntie and my mum coming to visit Monkey Forest for the first time and being absolutely amazed at the fact that there was a primate right in front of me, acting as if I wasn't there and it was just being a monkey, I thought it was magnificent. And that visit always stuck with me. And for me, as a visitor attraction, I always talk about, now I'm marketing at a visitor attraction. Is the sparkle what excites your visitors to come to you? 

Josh Torlop: And that is it. That moment of thinking, wow, that's incredible, there's a monkey right there acting exactly how it would in the wild. That's always stuck with me. And that inspired me to apply for that role because I wanted to share that sort of memory maker with thousands of people to visit the park and have that same experience. And thankfully, we're doing that quite well. We're hitting all the right noises on TikTok. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah, you're doing a great job. Does it ever get normal? Because I have to say, it's really weird to be stood here in a perfectly normal british bit of woodland. And, yeah, there are monkeys. 

Josh Torlop: Well, if you look to your left, you'll see a statue of a man in the distance. So that man is the Duke of Sutherland. He once owned this land, a bit like lion king, you know, everywhere the light touches, I own. Basically, in the victorian times, he owned the Trentham estate. So everywhere we're looking now, that was Duke Sutherland's land. And people of that time actually enjoyed this forest for leisure. So not much has really changed because people still enjoy it. It's just there's monkeys here, which I love to imagine if we just brought him back for just a day and I would be like, what do you think of this use for your land, mister Duke, Sir Duke? 

Oz Austwick: I think it's fascinating. And one of the things that we see a lot, because we talk to and work with a lot of old historic estates and the kind of, I guess maybe 100 years ago or so, there was a real issue where they had to suddenly start doing something to survive. They couldn't just have the land and keep it, they had to actually make some use of it or lose it. And it's really interesting how some places in their safari parks or golf courses or hotels and spas, and there we have a load of monkeys. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah, I mean, 60 acres, about the equivalent of 40 football pitches. For any football fans listening, that's a lot of space. And the visitors see a very small proportion of that, which is nice in a way. I'd love for visitors to see all our forest, but for the monkeys, they have such a huge, vast amount of forest space to live exactly how they would in the wild, to a point. That's incredible. So we invited last year, for example, a David Attenborough producer called Rosie Thomas to do a members evening. We obviously have members, and she had literally just been filming in the Algeria, Morocco, a region where these monkeys are native to. 

Josh Torlop: And she was absolutely bowled over by the fact that it was bringing her back to filming with David Attenborough, which was crazy to think, but so rewarding, in a sense, for us, as an organisation, to think we're doing the right things. And, yeah, that was probably a moment where I thought, wow. Well, I always think, wow. But that, for me, sums up Monkey Forest. To see that a David Attenborough producer could be amazed, and the environment. 

Oz Austwick: So, yeah, so how do you market it? 

Josh Torlop: How do I market it? 

Oz Austwick: It's not like there's a playbook that already. 

Josh Torlop: That's probably the beauty of it. But is there a playbook for marketing? I mean, TikTok, I feel like if you ever see the Royal Society Protection of Birds, RSPB, they're amazing. They are so hilarious with TikTok. But for us, I think we stick to our unique. Oh, gosh, USP Unique Selling Point of, you walk amongst the monkeys. We have a little bit of fun with it, but also, we know our audience quite well, in a sense, that we know which channels suit certain content types. Pr. We do a lot of story pushing, storytelling features, like a huge part of our marketing activity. We tend to go viral quite often with user generated content. 

Josh Torlop: So we try and, you know, push that to make sure that visitors want to take a TikTok here, get excited about that, because it could go viral, it could blow up. Anyone can make content nowadays, so we tap into that. But, yeah, I think the key in everything is knowing your audience, knowing what we are and what we do best, which is the walking amongst the monkeys and the conservation behind it. And also being organic. I think I'm being authentic. I think some brands tend to forget that their audiences are human and they don't want to be sold to. They want to see organic content, digest it, consume it, otherwise they're going to swipe up or they're going to swipe across. 

Josh Torlop: So for us, it's all about having that tongue in cheek element, hitting all noises, having those serious conservation messaging, whether it's a blog or whatever, but marrying that up with some funny content. I mean, do you remember the Aurora, the Northern Lights? One silly thing I did on social media was I superimposed a monkey, transparent monkey in the sky here, and we said, "Oh, the Aurora looked a bit different and still contract", and that got a bit of traction. But, yeah, things like that, you know, showing a bit of personality. I mean, Ryanair do it, a lot of brands are starting to do it now. Curries. I find them hilarious when they chuck a chicken into a air fryer, like from a viral meme video. I don't know if you've seen, Oz, but that's hilarious. Yeah, that's brilliant. 

Oz Austwick: I mean, there are some companies that are really smashing social media. I'm a huge fan of Gregg's social media. And there's one of the big London department stores that does a world famous Christmas display in their windows every year. And there's a Gregg's opposite the road, opposite them, on the other side of the road. And they literally, they reversed their sign so that every time somebody took a picture of the Christmas display, it said Gregg's. 

Josh Torlop: Oh, brilliant. 

Oz Austwick: What a fantastic thing. 

Josh Torlop: You're making me hungry for a cheese and onion pasta. I love it. Gregg's. There is a drive through one in Stoke by Trent Bale. 

Oz Austwick: I might check that out. 

Josh Torlop: For me, I think TikTok in particular, I think every marketer's worked out that each post you do on TikTok you're following is the lowest percentage of who will see that. So it's always a new audience for every post that you do on TikTok. So for us coming in three years ago, we didn't have a TikTok, which I found incredible. We should have TikTok was my answer in my job interview, and that's probably what landed me the job because, you know, three years on we've got 12.7 thousand followers, which is quite a good growth. 

Josh Torlop: I'm always my biggest critic, so I'd want more, but I think every marketer or PR would say that. But in terms of the TikTok content that we put out is just making sure that we're doing it on a consistent basis, because we know that organic nature of the organic post, reaching a new audience each time, that's probably not going to be there forever. So it's sort of using that now to our advantage because, say, if we do ten posts a week and yeah, all those ten posts didn't get a million views, but if each one of those got a thousand views, that's 10,000 people that wouldn't have seen our content. And also that our unique element will be embedded in that content, or it'll be me in a monkey costume dancing to It's Raining Men. That wasn't me, by the way. 

Josh Torlop: I've just, I'm just like, that slipper wasn't me. Lots of fun. 

Oz Austwick: I'll see if I can get a link for that and pop it in the show notes. I mean, I think it's really interesting that social media kind of gives us this really odd view when it comes to numbers. And you say you've got what, say, twelve and a half thousand followers. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah, I think it's 12.7 now. 12.7 thousand. 

Oz Austwick: And those people who are really into social media will look at that and think, oh, that's not very many. 

Josh Torlop: No. 

Oz Austwick: But put them all in a room. 

Josh Torlop: Well, that's quite an awful lot for a small organisation. But also zero pounds spent. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. 

Oz Austwick: If you got twelve and a half thousand people through the gates, that wouldn't come through the gates otherwise, then that's a massive step. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah. Well, absolutely. I think for us, we have a quite high awareness campaign yearly campaign. We just want to drive awareness to us. Because I live and die by you put this in front of eyes. Feet are going to certainly follow because of how incredible it is. So that's what molds our strategy. But that's obviously one small element is social media. I mean, we did a PR stunt in 2022 that went globally viral. It reached 900 million people. So we're talking about 12.7 thousand not being the biggest, but that's huge. Yeah. James Corden was talking about little old Trent and monkey forest a few years ago. Because you'll love this, we hired a Marvin Gaye impersonator to serenade our monkeys, saying, "Let's get it on." 

Oz Austwick: I saw. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: And that was a Valentine's Day thing. 

Josh Torlop: It was a Valentine's Day PR stunt, yeah. And it went absolutely viral. I dine out on it every week now at dinner, because I don't think I'm ever going to live that down. 

Oz Austwick: So, I mean, did it work? Do you have baby monkeys now? 

Josh Torlop: We had twelve that year, I believe. I think twelve. So. 

Oz Austwick: So, from a conservation point of view, getting Marvin Gaye involved was a good move. 

Josh Torlop: Well, that's it, yeah. We aim between six and seven babies, so if we have twelve that year, then it's work. 

Oz Austwick: I'm impressed. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: So what are some of the challenges? Because obviously it's just you that does all of this and I've worked in house as a marketer and you've got to do everything, which inevitably means that you've just got to decide which bits you're going to do and which bits you're not. 

Oz Austwick: How's that work in the visitor attraction industry? 

Josh Torlop: For me, I hate the saying jack of all trades. I prefer swiss army knife because each part of a swift army knife is very useful and that's each part of the communication strategy f For me, every bit of it is vital for the success of your marketing and pr strategy. And one of the challenges is, obviously, managing time. Not to be boring, but it is. For example, this morning I've had a BBC radio stoke interview come straight speak to you. But, yeah, it's a case of making sure that you don't bite off more than you can chew, not having a skatcon approach, having quite a strategic straight line, knowing what you wanted to achieve. or me. Every bit of it is vital for the success of your marketing and pr strategy. So, yeah, that feeds into our strategy, really. 

Josh Torlop: It's not biting off more than we can chew, but also being as impactful as we can with the resource given. So I take all the photography that many people probably don't know, and Monkey Forest, we don't outsource photography, I take it. So I feel like, yes, it can be taxing having just one person to do all these roles, but then ensures consistency, because if it's wrong, it's the wrong consistency. But I like to think I'm doing quite well here. So in terms of what we're doing and what we're putting out, it's all consistent, we're brand cohesive because we haven't got a lot of chefs in the room giving off opinions, which can be good, can be useful, but still, I think that's why we get stuff done quite quickly. 

Josh Torlop: Say, if I want bit of content, I take my camera in and get the content, whatever it needs to be. But I do say, "Oh, yeah, it's a marketing team of one", but I have a great support network around me. For example, the director, Mark, best boss you'll ever work for. He is such a good guy and he trusts me to execute the pr and marketing strategy well. And then we've got Lisa, the part manager, who helps me a lot as well with radio interviews. They're all superb in front of the camera. Not a lot of people would say that, but media training wise, everyone is fantastic here in front of media, which is great. So everyone was willing to muck in. 

Josh Torlop: The Marvin Gaye PR event, for example, that was a roaring success because the guides were on board, they knew what, even though it sounded ridiculous. And all of our guides have science based, of course, being Barbary macaque experts. And they thought, what the earth is Josh playing at here? They saw the impact of raising the profile of the endangered species and they were really with me on that. But that was because we did a team brief. We explained the strategy behind it, what we wanted to achieve. The reason I actually said, the reason why I like to do this high awareness campaign is because I go into the pub with my mates to celebrate getting this job and I'm from a little town called Norfolk in Cheshire, which is probably on the sort of cross county border of Staffordshire. 

Josh Torlop: And I said, "Oh, I've got a job at transome monkey forest." And they went, "Oh, part of my transom gardens." " No", that's not the case. So we didn't have that profile in place. That was only the people that knew about us, by the way. So half the table didn't even know what Transponkey forest was, which I found baffling 20 minutes up the road. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. So, yeah, so, I mean, you get quite a lot of user generated content, your social media, obviously full of monkeys, but most people's isn't. So when they come, it's quite special being to put that out. But you mentioned earlier when were chatting about the fact that your most recent success has been TripAdvisor. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah, it's quite the timing, to be fair. So we've gone viral again this week because someone did a review on Tripadvisor and this sums up our marketing strategy to a team because obviously we try and be as lighthearted as possible and resonate with our audiences. So someone did a review about Monkey Forest and they were upset that we had monkeys. So, yeah, primarily it was monkeys. So we responded. I respond to every review because I find the feedback so useful, because we have the luxury that a lot of businesses who are listening or people are from organisations going to be jealous of this. We're closed over winter, so November to February. We have a strategic analysis of the business for me as well, marketing activity. I do all my strategy over winter, implement it spring and summer. 

Josh Torlop: So anyway, we love our feedback, we love receiving the feedback. And this week, it's the first time in nearly four years where I've been stumped for words. I didn't know what to say to this person because we have got monkeys. So our response went viral. We said something along the lines of, "Yes, we're a monkey forest. So primarily there are monkeys. Sorry, don't know how to answer this." 

Oz Austwick: It just leaves me wondering how they found you. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah, because if you. 

Oz Austwick: Our SEO must be formed pictures of monkey and the website site is covered in pictures of monkeys and it's called monkey forest. 

Josh Torlop: Can't please everyone. Right. I'm not sure, to be fair, I'd love for him to reach out because, yeah, it has gone viral. I feel bad for the chap who's done the review because he must be a bit upset with all the attention he's got from a review because he's a paying visitor at the end of the day and he probably had a great time, but. 

Oz Austwick: You'd hope so, but not if you don't like monkeys, I guess. 

Josh Torlop: Yeah. So. But, yeah, it was in the mail, the Daily Mail, the Daily Mirror, all the national news pretty much this week. So it kept me on my toes and busy. And that's when it's hard as a team of one, is to manage things that go viral. 

Oz Austwick: I guess at that point you're getting a lot of people trying to contact you and get comments from you for their articles. So what they're putting out is a little bit different. 

Josh Torlop: Well, no, to be fair, everything's been consistent so far, but it is a lot of marketing, and PR is controlling narratives and making sure that the content or whatever's being put out is in line with what you're trying to achieve. And obviously PR has that challenge and I like to think that PR is sort of my bag. So I love to do PR. It's something that I've always been interested in. I did a journalism degree at university, so I love the PR element of the job and storytelling. So from that, I'm sure fellow PRs that are listening will understand. When something goes viral, it's a little dreaded demon in the back of your mind where you're like, "Oh, God, it's gone viral." 

Oz Austwick: It's probably good. 

Josh Torlop: Probably good. But I've got a lot of answers to come up with. But, yeah, it's great for the business and we're a lovely bunch here. So if anyone does something great, people do tell you, and it's really nice, and it's such a wonderful place to work. Even the head guides, they have a bit of bands with me. I like to call them Anton Deck, the two head guides. So it's Aliya, the Venice, and it's daydream. 20 years. Well, 19 years, but yeah. So Aliyah gave me a lot of banter. Scene. What has he done now? He's made it busy for bank holiday. We're gonna be knackered. But, yeah, it's all good fun. It's all good banter. 

Oz Austwick: So what's next? Where do we go at Trentham Monkey Forest? What's the future look like? 

Josh Torlop: I want to do another Valentine's Day PR stunts. I want to do Netflix and chill, so I want to set up play screen for the monkeys. May play a bit of Titanic or love, actually. But, yeah, I just want to carry on going, getting as much awareness of the park as possible, hitting the right noises, bringing a load of visitors in who have a great time and do more things like this, because this is brilliant and I've really appreciated you coming in, having a chat. 

Oz Austwick: It's a joy. It feels a little bit like it's not work. I'm feeling very lucky today, so thank you very much for having me. 

Josh Torlop: Thank you. I think I've bored the monkeys because they've all gone. They've all legged it. 

Oz Austwick: I am wondering where they've gone. Before we wrap it up, we try and finish every episode with a book recommendation. 

Josh Torlop: Brilliant. I think I need to be on brand here, even though there are monkeys here and they're not apes, but I'm gonna recommend the Chimp Paradox. Can't remember who it's by, but it's a great book. It's all about controlling your inner chimp as a human and controlling your emotions and making sure you don't react emotionally too much to things. Because I like to think I wear my heart on my sleeve and it's good to make sure that you're keeping control of your emotions and making sure that you know, if anything happens, you're doing a great job, everything's going well in life. Chill out. And not being too hard on yourself. 

Oz Austwick: Amazing. Well, if you'd like a copy, head over to X and retweet us and say that you would like Josh's book. 

Josh Torlop: I didn't write it. Josh's book. Josh's book. 

Oz Austwick: We call it Josh's book. Yeah. Thanks so much. I really appreciate having you on board.  And for letting me come and hang out with your monkeys. 

Josh Torlop: There you go. Thanks very much. Appreciate you coming down. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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• Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
• Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
• Learn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion rates
• Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report
 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

Fill in the Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

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Show references:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenpriestnall/

https://linktr.ee/oomphinc

Stephen Priestnall founded oomph, now an accredited B Corp, in 2005, acquired Decision Juice in 2009 and is globally recognised as a specialist in CX driven transformation projects and digital innovation. He has advised at a senior level across public and private sector organisations in the UK, Americas, Asia and the Middle East and is an instigator of international research studies into behaviour change. He is a Board Trustee with Aneurin Leisure Trust, advising on CX and communications strategy and a founding Director at Wellbeing Economy Cymru, part of the global Wellbeing Economy Alliance, advocating for a new approach to economic sustainability for people and planet.

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Mister attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. On today's episode, I speak to Stephen Priestnall, the CEO of oomph, a CX focused agency based in the UK and UAE who help clients to understand people and design better experiences. We're going to go back to first principles and understand what customer experience is all about and understand what attractions can do better to serve the needs of their customers. 

Paul Marden: Hello, Oz. 

Oz Austwick: Hi, Paul. So this is the last episode of Season 5, right? 

Paul Marden: Yes, that is right. Can you believe after we took the reigns from. From young Ms. Molson not too long ago, that we would actually make it to the end of the season? 

Oz Austwick: Do you know, it's crazy, isn't it? I mean, five seasons of a podcast. Most podcasts don't get through to the end of one season. And I can remember listening to this podcast years ago and actually sending people links as an example of what a good podcast is. And now here we are, you and I, at the end of Season 5. It's crazy.. 

Paul Marden: Yay. Guardians of this little baby. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, no pressure. So today's quite an interesting one, right? 

Paul Marden: Yeah. I've got a guest who has been a friend of mine for some time, Stephen Priestnall of Oomph agency. And we're going to talk a little bit about customer experience. So nice little chat between Stephen and I, and then you and I will come together in a little while and talk a little bit about. Let's reminisce about season five and talk a little bit about what might happen in Season 6. 

Oz Austwick: Awesome. Great. I'm looking forward to it. 

Paul Marden: Let's get on with it then. Welcome to podcast, Stephen. 

Stephen Priestnall: Nice to be here, Paul. Thanks for inviting me. 

Paul Marden: Good to have you on. Longtime listeners will know that we always start the podcast with some icebreaker questions, which hopefully not too challenging, but we get to know you a little bit better before we start talking about work. So both of my icebreakers are all about visiting attractions this time. So how organised are you in advance? If you go to an attraction, do you take a picnic with you, or are you always partaking of a cup of tea and a slice of cake in the coffee shop? 

Stephen Priestnall: I think it would have to be a particularly kind of informal attraction for me to have thought about taking a picnic beforehand. So normally it's just the anticipation of going to the place, and then I'll utilise the services in the place. 

Paul Marden: I love a good slice of cake in the coffee shop afterwards. Scone, cream, tea and scone that would be me. 

Stephen Priestnall: No way. Maybe a bit of our breath or fruitcake. It's probably more me. 

Paul Marden: Oh, lovely. I was at the Roman Baths yesterday with my little girl and we had a lovely wander around and they had a brilliant self guided tour. So if you've got a choice, do you go for a self guided tour? Do you wander around and follow your nose? Or would you rather have a guide take you around and tell you the stories? 

Stephen Priestnall: I almost never have a guide to take me around. And then sometimes I even find the self guided tours a little bit invasive. If I'm in a different country where there is kind of a language barrier, a filter, then I might use it then. But you know what? I kind of like that the ability just to bump from one bit to another. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Stephen Priestnall: And experience the experience through my own kind of filter. So that's what I would normally do. I haven't been able to wander around with the headphones on, almost never with a guy. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, they had a lovely one at the Roman Baths yesterday. So it had both adult interpretation and kids interpretation, and I found myself switching to the kids one so that I was experiencing what Millie was experiencing, because I was saying to her, “Oh, did they tell you what that was?” “Oh, no, that wasn't in the kids version.” So I swapped the kids one and it brought it to life. It was really. It became much more shared experience for us. 

Stephen Priestnall: Yeah, well, that's like that's like the horrible history stuff. Yeah. But actually, it's brilliant. Rattles that was what they were on about in the tudor period, then. I didn't get it until now. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, look, listeners, Stephen and I have known each other for quite some time. We've been working together a lot on different projects, and his agency, Oomph, does a lot of work in customer experience. And so today's episode is going to be a little bit more about a primer on what do we mean by customer experience? And really, what I'd like to get to the bottom of today is what can attractioners do better to serve the needs of their customers. Yeah. So, really, Stephen, what I want to do is pick your brains. Let's introduce this whole subject of CX and customer experience and help people to better understand a little bit about what does that mean and how can they bring that into their day to day work in running attractions and meeting customers. 

Paul Marden: So, before we start that, why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and a little bit more about Oomph. So that listeners can better understand the context. 

Stephen Priestnall: Yeah, thanks, Paul. We've positioned ourselves around the concept of customer experience for about ten years now, and customer experience ten years ago was a bit of an oddball place to be. It kind of grew out of the user experience, the UX world, with a little bit of event management thrown into it and a little bit of actually, you need to think about people in the middle of all of this. And we come from a background of combining digital and data quite successfully to kind of help devise communications campaigns, kind of brand engagements, that kind of thing. And what we could see was if you brought all these things together as data was getting more sophisticated, with digital interactions on the rise, that you could get yourself much more informed about the way in which people's customers were actually behaving. 

Stephen Priestnall: And not so much what they were actually how they were behaving, but also what their needs were that drove the behaviours. And so we have, we've grounded our work and customer experience around a very clear desire to understand the needs of our clients’ customers, and then to hold that mirror up for our clients and say, “Look, I know you have these products and services to sell and to engage with, but what we're going to do is a job of letting you know at the point of engagement they're hitting your customers needs in this way. And if you then flip the lens around from the customer need first rather than the product or service first, you might determine a different way of building that service or designing that interaction, or maybe even changing the way in which you invite customers into a journey with you.”

Stephen Priestnall: So a lot of data and digital inside are our space port that inform CX. And then in the last couple of years, AI has been another transformative technology that we've started to utilise. And we know we treat it as good AI. We know there's bad AI out there, but the good AI is really helpful. 

Paul Marden: That's really interesting. We know from the Rubber Cheese Survey this year that most attractions have dabbled. They've played with ChatGPT, or something like that. But there's still a large portion of attractions that have done nothing with AI. And then there's a couple that I would consider at the leading edge. So they're doing things beyond GPT. They're looking at AI enabled CRM or AI enabled workforce management solutions.

Paul Marden:  So there's some interest in here, but it's definitely, there's a conversation that we've had on the podcast just recently with Oz and I talking about the idea that we can't quite figure out if we're in a bubble because a lot of people that we talk to talk a lot of good game about AI, but when we're talking to the businesses, the clients, they're only just getting into this in the most shallow way. Agencies like yours and ours are kind of. We're leading the conversation on this, I think. 

Stephen Priestnall: Well, I think it's really interesting you frame it like that, because one of the things that has informed our approach to CX is the idea of understanding behaviour change, which is a science in itself. So if any listeners are familiar with behaviour change, you'll know how long the tail of kind of investigation evaluation that is. We launched a study in 2020 which ended up over three years and three waves, 10,000 respondents looking at the impact of Covid-19 on people's behaviour and their interaction with organisations. That is part of our research centre which we call tide of events, which is now about to launch another study which is going to be looking at the impact of AI. 

Paul Marden: Oh really? 

Stephen Priestnall: As employees, as citizens, as customers, as service users, as members, as supporters. I'm expecting some very interesting things to come out of that study as well. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, very interesting. So there's this idea of kind of CX thinking and embedding that, embedding it the heart of your agency, but you then helping your clients to embed it into the business. So how can CX thinking help an attraction to improve its offering? And I think if we can look at that in two directions, because obviously most visitor attractions are an in person experience, there's lots of thinking around their interaction and the experience that they feel when they're in the attraction itself. But there's a lot of us looking at either side of that interaction. How do we use marketing to get more people to want to do stuff? And then how do we make sure that they got the best experience after they did and reengage with us. How can CX thinking offline and online help an attraction? 

Stephen Priestnall: The principles of customer experience thinking, certainly from our perspective, is to deal with the reality of that there are people involved. And I think you and I both know, Paul, in the digital world it's kind of quite easy to forget as a person we spend a lot of time in front of technology, trying to get technology to do stuff that we think is helpful. And then it's easy to lose sight of the goal, which is to help a person achieve a task or do something which they have, they enjoy doing. I think in the world of attractions, destinations, then when you're in a kind of physical world, that you're sat in that environment designing something, and you're a physical person yourself. 

Stephen Priestnall: And as a designer, looking in that environment, feeling that, okay, well, if I walk from here to here, it's going to feel like that. If I put this in the wrong place, if my member of staff is trained in the wrong way and uses the wrong language, that's going to have a direct impact. So you kind of get brought back to the people side of it quite a lot when you're in it in person. So I would say that the world of CX thinking is about bringing the importance of the human into the overall experience. So you don't treat the digital experience with kind of it in a different frame set than you treat the in real life, in person experience. 

Stephen Priestnall: And that's quite hard to do, because sometimes you're trying to drive the digital experiences as a kind of conversion funnel to get people to do something and buy something or consume some content. And you can kind of get hung up on the word optimisation and funnel management, and you then get drawn into, how can we push people through to the next phase? And push people through to the next phase? And imagine if you're in an attraction, and yeah, you might make certain parts, physical areas, a place where you would want people to go to, but you wouldn't have somebody walking up and nudging them in the back, pushing them down the aisle and stopping them from turning around and staying in one place. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Stephen Priestnall: And yet, that's often what happens in the digital world. It becomes an optimisation process to kind of channel a particular behavior that we think is optimal for the organisation. So the world of CX stands back from that, identifies the needs that were satisfying, and looks at Paul and Stephen as two individuals who are unique as individuals, and can be defined by a set of age, gender, sociological, economic characteristics. But actually, Paul and I might have five or six relevant needs for the attraction of which two are consistent. And, you know, two or three are completely different. So we can't treat Paul as Paul and Stephen as Stephen. We have to understand the relationship between the needs that we have as individuals and the thing that we're doing, or the point of the point on the journey we're on. 

Stephen Priestnall: And I think that's tricky to kind of link the digital and the in real life worlds together. But that's the trick I like to think the kind of CX approach would bring. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. Just as you're saying that it can be hard to think about the person. But also many of the attractions that we work with have very different offerings. And so consequently they have very different audiences that have very different needs. And, you know, are you trying to serve online an audience that's never going to attend? How do you serve those people's needs? If you've got an educational remit, how do you serve those people's needs whilst at the same time serving the needs of the people that you want to bring in and spend money on site with you? If you're a historic house that also has a golf course and it has a hotel and it has some sort of kids attraction associated with it, there's so many different audiences. 

Paul Marden: So that kind of CX thinking can help you to step back. 

Stephen Priestnall: Absolutely. And actually just maybe think of a great triangulation process between three different clients that we've been working with recently that show that kind of breadth of differences. So we work with the saudi arabian government on a new, one of their giga projects on a new destination out in the desert near Rhea called Duria. And that is an amazing set of destination components. Golf courses, equestrian centres, hotels, business centres. And that's creating a destination for a country which has never had any tourism in it before. So with a whole bunch of high net worth individuals that you've got to think about, then also a challenge to get people who live in Saudi to not spend the $90 billion a year that they do going to visit the rest of the world and to actually visit somewhere in Saudi. 

Stephen Priestnall: So we've had a set of kind of challenges around how do you drive a customer journey, a visitor journey for that. And we've been working with an organisation called Marketing Manchester, helping them devise a new segmentation so they can, I'm going to use the term, attract the right kind of visitors to go to Manchester to hook in with their sustainability strategy. They don't just want people in the shopping malls and going to the football, sports events or shows, albeit they would like that. They also want to understand the community engagement, the cultural engagement and the environmental footprint that they leave behind. And then we're just in conversations with North York Moore's National Park. And then there's a whole different set of conversations about engagement with the local community, communities, a little bit arms folded about tourists. How do you make that come together? 

Stephen Priestnall: And all of this is about people and it's about understanding people's relationship with people and things. 

Paul Marden: Brilliant. So let's have a little think about given that those are the ideas behind CX thinking. If you were starting out down this road, what are the simple things that people can do to start to bed the customer at the heart of their thinking as they're planning their services? And I'm thinking in terms of, we've got very different types of attractions in this country, very small, up to, you know, big international attractions. Let's pick the small guys. Yeah. Imagine you're running a small town museum and, you know, you've got a handful of people working in the team. How can you start to embed the customer into your thinking to improve the service? 

Stephen Priestnall: So I think, I don't think the principles change with scale. I think that the executional methods will change with scale, but the principles. And you can have, you know, if you've got a small team of three or four people, you can have these three or four people working together in a room. You can support a research or not, if you can afford the research that great. If you can't, then you use. So we use a term called foundational intelligence. So before we start any research with a client which might go and look at their customers or prospective customers or visitors.

Stephen Priestnall: We say, “Right, let's go all of the information in your organisation on the surface, first, because there's however many people around the room's years of experience, which is not necessarily formed in a cx way, but if we get that on the table, we've probably got a 60, 70, 80% starting point for what we're going to need to know in the end. I think that's the first thing I would say, is take confidence in the fact you've got some foundational intelligence about customer experience. But there might be a clever way of bringing that out through a little workshop. So you ask the right questions of each other. And one of the ways which I think is useful to do and quite practical is to think about three different ways of looking at people as individuals. 

Stephen Priestnall: So think about themselves as a, you know, a standard attribute based, if you like, cohort or segments, you know, age, demography, all those things that we talked about, but then move those to one side and then ask a relatively straightforward question, what needs are being satisfied by your services? So it's kind of, what's the point of what you do? Yeah, well, harsh question. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Stephen Priestnall: But it's devoid from, if you like, knowing your customers at that point, devoid from any transaction based evaluation or business case to say, what's the point of what we do? Why do people turn up and then be quite hard about answering those questions. And when you get the first answer in your head, which is based on what you've always thought you've always done, just go right. Is that really why people turn up? 

Paul Marden: Is that right? 

Stephen Priestnall: Really why people walk through the door? Is that really why people tell their friends about us? 

Paul Marden: There's a little bit of lean thinking there, isn't there? You've got five whys, haven't you? You could go, but why? But why? But why? Just to keep pushing yourself to think that hard thought. 

Stephen Priestnall: Exactly. Whatever, you know, whatever little mental games you want to play with it, that's the kind of point. What's the point? And then the next lens to look at it is the journey your visitors are on in order to not just get to your destination, but get out of your destination and be reflecting on it to their I, peers, friends, colleagues, family. And that journey doesn't mean I book a ticket, I turn up, I walk around the attraction and then I go home. It means what are the component parts of that journey when they're in planning more just you asked me earlier on about whether I plan a picnic. What are they planning? How likely are they to plan? Do they not want to plan? Do they just want to turn up? 

Stephen Priestnall: You know, when they're getting to, when they're coming, when they're traveling to the destination, how are they traveling? What's their preferred method of travel? And then what are the different ways in which people engage with the attraction itself? And then what happens afterwards when they walk out? Do they walk out and go for a beer? Forget about it. Did they do that thing you do in a golf club where you spend the next 3 hours talking about what you did for the last 3 hours? And what's the version of that could be done in social media afterwards? And again, do that. Do that without necessarily worrying too much about who does what. So you end up these kind of journey components. 

Stephen Priestnall: Now all these things can be really heavily researched if you've got resources and the time to do that, but you can do it in a room with three or four people in 2 or 3 hours. And what you'll end up with is a set of right. The people who visit us look a bit like this. Typically, here's five or six types of people, here's a pool type, here's a Steven type, here's a whoever else type of. We've got ten or eleven needs. Well, who knew we had ten or eleven needs? That were satisfying. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Stephen Priestnall: So you write those down. Oh, look, we got a journey which looks like planning, engagement, reflection. And I use those three terms because we use them all the time because they're nice and easy to get your head around. Planning, engagement, reflection, and within engagement here are all the different bits that are happening in engagement here. At the different bits that, all right, we might have a dozen, maybe even two dozen components underneath those kind of three big things. And you've then got a bit of a jigsaw. And it's also objective at that point as well. You've then got this objective jigsaw to say, which of those five or six groups of people have which of those needs do we think you might end up with that funny place where. 

Stephen Priestnall: Oh, actually that cohort doesn't have any of those needs, so we think they really like coming to us, but we're not doing anything to satisfy their needs or this other group that we don't get many of. Look how many needs we're satisfying in that group. Maybe we should be targeting that group. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Stephen Priestnall: So whether you're. Whether you go outwards and change your segmentation, your targeting, or whether you come in with and change your service design, you've already got some things to think about. And then when you map the journey on top of that, and again, you know, nice. It could be a done on paper, it could be done. There's loads of tools online you can do this without getting too scientific. You've then got the points at which, all right, so if that need is being satisfied for those people at that point, we now have a design intervention to work out. So we now have, essentially, we have a brief, we have a specification now that might be a piece of digital interaction, it might be a piece of communications design, it might be a piece of signage in the attraction, it might be a follow up social media nudge. 

Stephen Priestnall: You're then not inventing what you think it is that you need to do for your attraction. We use a phrase which I think clients are pretty comfortable with in the end because it. It's a real reflection. It's completely normal for organisations to kind of end up with an inside and view of the world. Everything is all about the product and the service because that's where the investment goes, that's where the thinking goes. And what we try and do is just to persuade people to take an outside in view. So actually look at this from the point of view of the customer. And I think what the exercise I've just described does is help you take that outside in view. 

Paul Marden: I'm smiling for those listening. I'm smiling because I just, it reminds me of so many times where I can, you know, I can see observing in the projects that we do or just, you know, interacting with the outside world, where you can tell that people often take a very parochial internal view and they'll communicate with the outside world in their own internal language. They will try and, you know, influence people to do things rather than thinking, how does this appear outside? 

Stephen Priestnall: Yeah, and it's, it, but it's also, it's not a critique. It's normalised behaviour. If you just think about how organisations grow, you end up with an idea, you know, where often it is about the customers. You've got this entrepreneurial, innovative spark that kicks the idea off, satisfying the needs. And then you build up a bunch of teams who, by definition, have broken out into departments with different roles and responsibilities. And then, and then the sense of self of the people in those teams is derived from the departmental responsibility. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Stephen Priestnall: But as a consequence, you then are trained, naturally trained to be inside out. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Stephen Priestnall: And so, it's normal. And then when that, then when the salesperson comes back and says, “Why did you build it like that?” You know, the designer, the product person says, “Well, because that's the best way of doing this thing.” And the salesperson says, “I can't sell that.” And that actually, and I don't know how much. In your podcast, Paul, you talked about agile, but this is when the concept of squads really can work. I think that you have to take real care with squads because they can end up creating rooms of people who don't understand each other. I think unless there's one other thing I would say about the human part of CX, you have to take this into the culture of the organisation as well. So you asked me earlier, how do you present a CX focus for an organisation? 

Stephen Priestnall: Well, you can't just drop the results of that little workshop on top of everybody, because it's the going through the process of looking at those three lenses that puts you in a different mindset. If you then just end up telling the product people or telling the sales people or telling the ops people, can you do it like this now? They'll just add that onto their list of things to do. It won't be a change. 

Paul Marden: But when you bring those people into the conversation, I think it brings a different perspective, doesn't it? And I think that's the one thing I've learned from you in the few years that we've known one another is that when you boil it down, everything is a CX project. And I don't think I ever really thought about that. That there can be something which to me seems so navel gazing, internally focused as a technical project to deliver in the business. But actually, when you think, when you apply the rigor of thinking about the client, the customer, then you find that it is a CX driven project, even if it is completely internally facing. It can be about the communication between two teams, but in the end, because they don't have good communication, it's resulting in this poor customer experience over here. 

Paul Marden: So when you think about it hard, then these projects have a CX focus, even when they are very kind of internally facing.

Stephen Priestnall: And it's sometimes difficult. I mean, I think that's a really good articulation of it. It sometimes can be a challenge to make that process seem worthwhile, because what you end up doing is spending more time challenging what you think is right at the beginning of the process. And there's always a desire from somewhere to move things on. I think that there's a little value based model that I always apply in my head, which if we treat this kind of CX phase as the planning phase, and then you go through a design phase, then you go through a build phase. For every extra hour you spend in planning, without spending that, you would spend ten more hours in design and a hundred more hours in production. So if you leave that hour aside, you're going to have a tenfold in design phase. 

Stephen Priestnall: And if you don't deal with it in design phase, you'll have it 100 fold, then build phase. But choosing to do that extra hour, which is tension filled, it might be a bit of conflict, there might be a bit of defensiveness. It needs to be carefully managed and kind of cajoled, but the value of it is meant. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So you've described this kind of approach to take, identifying who the customers are, trying to use a little bit of intuition to be all science if you've got the budget to go and do the research, but to understand those customers in more detail and what their needs are, and then driving down and finding out where, you know, the journey maps onto that and where the gaps are and starting to look to fill those gaps. Is there room in the world for a dirty bottom up approach where you can see a problem already and you want to address that problem? Can you attack this from both angles or do you need to start from a top down approach? 

Stephen Priestnall: I'm an arch pragmatist and if we know there's a problem to solve and it's screaming for a solution, then that's going to solve the problem. I would only cancel that try and stand back and look at the unintended consequences through a very objective lens. You don't need to spend long doing that. But I think the magnetism of solving a problem that's been a longstanding problem can also act as a set of blinkers. So that's the only thing I would say. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, you can be distracted by the screaming problem that turns out not to be the real root cause. If you take the bigger picture of you. 

Stephen Priestnall: If we got this horrendous problem just before checkout, whether that's a digital or at the attraction itself and queuing up going on, you know, there's a need to solve that through a piece of technology or extra stuff on the tills. But actually, it turns out that there's a funneling process going on in the start of the process that's causing everybody to end up at the checker at the same time. And that can be solved by a different distribution of products in the attraction itself, or bringing in some different content to inform people in the digital journey. That means they don't have to do task X and Y because they now know about it. You know, we've all had that before, which it looks like people can't get through this bit of the funnel. Let's try and make this bit of the funnel easier. 

Stephen Priestnall: Let's try and do more things. More buttons, more. Let's just try and make it easier. But actually, it turns out, if only we'd given that visitor to the digital journey more time to consume content and not push them through the first stage of the transaction process so quickly, they would have entered the second stage much better informed and relaxed about completing the overall thing. 

Paul Marden: It's just such a challenge, isn't it? Because I can just feel me even now with our fictitious scenario, all I want to do is squeeze them down the funnel. But you have to focus at the end about getting the right outcome, don't you? 

Stephen Priestnall:  There's another great metaphor I like to use, and we do this all the time because we talk about something called sustainable customer experience. And sustainable customer experience strategy isn't about a green CX strategy. It's about saying, if you get your CX strategy right, you will have to spend less money on acquiring new customers, so it's more economically sustainable and there's a really interesting kind of just different way of looking at it. So normally if you look at the typical retail conversion process, if you get 100 people on the top of a digital funnel, you might get five out the end as a conversion there's usually really simple numbers, five. So everybody works on how do we make five six? That's the big thing because that's like 20% improvement. If you get five to six, we've just put 20% on the bottom line. 

Stephen Priestnall: Meanwhile there's 95 people. Do you care? Are you interested? I came here for a reason and you don't like me anymore, so. Well, goodbye then. So what we do is we say, right, we want to put as much effort into understanding the 94. It's not wasted effort. I'm a pragmatist, as we do making the five six, because if out of that 94 we can get another 20 over the next twelve months to do the same thing. We've not spent any money on customer acquisition. We've built and engaged in a relationship. We've had opportunities to talk and engage them, which probably means they're going and talking to other people and checking about the experience. So they're probably doing some recruitment for us anyway, which we can also nudge behaviour. 

Stephen Priestnall: And then what that does, it changes the mentality inside the organisation to not just think about, we've got six out the other end. Yes. Celebrate. And actually think about. Because imagine if you did that physically. Imagine if physically you could see the hundred people in a queue and everybody went off celebrating the 6th that went through. And then you look back and you looked at these 94 people just milling around having a chat with each other and what just happened. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, that would feel pretty uncomfortable, wouldn't it? 

Stephen Priestnall: It will. Especially for an attraction. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, for sure. Look, this has been brilliant. It's nice. I think sometimes to take a step back and look at that kind of the 101 class, the intro to the subject. And I think this is a subject that we will come back to again and again. We've talked about taking it back to its first principles a little bit today, but this is embedded within the attraction sector. They know and understand the people that come through the door. This is something that they take really seriously, obviously. But I think there are ways in which we can take what we've learned today and use that as a springboard into some more deeper conversations. 

Paul Marden: Maybe in Season 6, which is coming up where we can talk a little bit more about, you know, your conversations about AI, the direction that you take these things in. How does AI help you in a world where you want to be cx centric? What does AI do for you? So thank you ever so much. This has been brilliant. Thank you. 

Stephen Priestnall: Really enjoyed it. 

Paul Marden: One last ask of you, though. We always ask our interviewees to come up with a book recommendation. And it can be fiction, it can be factual, it can be about the subject. But we will give this book away to the first person that retweets the show advert and says, I want Stephen's book. So what is the book that you'd like to share with the world? 

Stephen Priestnall: Well, so I'd love to say it was. It was a book I wrote in 1986 on expert systems in context. I was doing AI back in the 80’s. That one is out of print. You definitely will get hold of it. Instead, it's a book that I think challenges, whatever your persuasions about understanding of the environment and climate, challenges your way of thinking about. It's a book by an activist called George Monbiot, and it's called Feral. And it's to do with the rewilding of Britain, the potential for rewilding Britain. And again, whether you're minded to think that's a good thing or not, it's a great book to just think, okay, that's my perceptions challenge. I hadn't thought of things like that. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. So, listeners, if you'd like to get a copy of Stephen's book, then head over to X, find the show tweet that we put out and say, I want Stephen's book. And the first person to do that will get a copy. Stephen, this has been wonderful. Thank you all so much. And hopefully we will talk more about this in Season 6. 

Stephen Priestnall: Thank you very much, Paul. 

Oz Austwick: He's a really interesting guy, isn't he? 

Paul Marden: He is indeed. I said to Stephen afterwards, it was such a nice conversation because we've been working together for years, and today I got to ask the questions I've been too embarrassed to ask for the last few years because I really should, at this point, know the answers to them. But today I was able to take the place of the listener and ask those questions without fear of embarrassment. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, there does come a point where you kind of feel that you probably shouldn't be asking this question anymore. You should already know this. Yeah, I love that. I thought, it's really interesting. I love this concept of nudging that he talked about, and it's something I've been aware of online for years, but the kind of putting it in the context of happening in the real world, I thought was really interesting. It gives you a bit of insight into how weird it is that we try and force people into certain pathways online. When you'd never dream of doing that in the real world, just having somebody outside a room just pushing you into it. Yeah, you wouldn't do that. 

Paul Marden: You're in a queue for the log flume and you get poked in the back to say, “Do you want to buy your photo? Do you want to buy your photo? You really do want to buy the photo, don't you?”

Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, that does kind of happen, doesn't it? It's usually my children that are doing it, if I'm being honest. But, yeah, really interesting stuff. 

Paul Marden: A nice way to round out some amazing interviews and fireside chats that we've had over Season 5 and look forward to Season 6. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I'm really excited about Season 6. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, we want to do something a little bit different, don't we? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, well, I mean, firstly, I'll get to start the season of the podcast. Because I wasn't here at the start of Season 5. I've kind of just weaseled my way in halfway through the season and gone, “Yes, mine now.” 

Paul Marden: Tell listeners, what is it that we want to do differently? 

Oz Austwick: Well, it feels a bit weird to me that we're creating a podcast all about the visitor attraction sector, which is designed to get people out of their houses to a place and actually experience it in the real world. And yet you're sitting in exactly the same room, and I'm sitting in exactly the same room. And as we pointed out not long ago, I'm wearing the same t shirt as I seem. This appears to be my podcast t shirt. And yet, you know, we're not getting out. So we're gonna get out. We're gonna get in a car and go to a place and record a podcast in an attraction with a person. And I think that's amazing. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I just can't wait. We've got a couple lined up. One's crazy, one's going to be a big event. It could be really fun, but we love listeners with attractions who would like two blokes and some cameras to turn up to invite us along. We would love to come and visit your venue. We would love to talk about whatever subject it is that you think our listeners would like to discuss, and we'll come along and we'll record it in real life at your place and see how amazing your venue is and talk more about the stuff that everybody's interested in. 

Oz Austwick: Absolutely. But it's not just that we're going to do a little bit differently, is it? We're kind of focusing a little bit more on different groups. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. There was some lovely feedback for those, for listeners that listened to Kelly's final episode, her swan song. When Ross from Drayton Manor came on and talked about his experience of being on the podcast and how influential it was for him to have his 15 minutes of fame for Skip the Queue, and how important that was to him in his stage, in his career, that prompted us to think about, can we use this platform now that so many people before us built to help to shine a light on new and emerging talent in the sector? So if you are in early stages of your career and you are doing something interesting in the attraction space, could be digital, it could be something customer focused in real life. 

Paul Marden: There's so many different ways where we could have an interesting conversation about what it is that you do and why other people would find it interesting. You know, invite us in. We would love to have that conversation with people. If you know someone, if there's someone in your team who, you know, you can see is doing amazing things and could grow in their career with the spotlight shone on them, and there's lots of people like that, then point them in our direction. Point us in their direction. We can definitely do something to help them to share their story and hopefully to benefit from that springboard, that stepping outside and talking to the outside world about what you do can really have on a career. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's lovely that hopefully now, after five seasons, the podcasts kind of mature enough that we don't need to lean on those famous, influential people in the industry quite as much. And hopefully that maybe we've got enough loyal listeners and enough of us standing as a podcast that we can tell stories just because they're interesting. Yeah, you already know the name of the person we're talking to, so, yeah, that's going to be really exciting. 

Paul Marden: But, you know, there are stories to be told that we don't know about yet that I'm sure will be going on inside listeners minds and, you know, hit us up, send us an email, send us a tweet, an X. I don't know what. I don't know. That's another story, isn't it? But send us a message by carrier Pigeon, if you can, that tells us what you think we should be talking about, the people we should be meeting and the stories that should be told. We would love to hear from you. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, and in the meantime, enjoy your two or three weeks without Skip the Queue. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully you're all busy working in your attractions, being absolutely swamped. If the attractions I've been to are anything to go by, it is a rip roaring success of a summer. We've had some pretty good weather and yeah, we'll be looking back at this September October time thinking what an amazing summer it was after a disappointing start to the year. 

Oz Austwick: So yeah, well, fingers crossed. Absolutely. 

Paul Marden: Thank you, Oz. It's been delightful. I've enjoyed every minute of it. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, me too. Here's to Season 6. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, see you on the other side. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! 

• Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
• Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
• Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
• Learn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion rates
• Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report
 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

Fill in the Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 31st July 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://rubbercheese.com/survey/

https://carbonsix.digital/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/

Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.

https://rubbercheese.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/ 

Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII’s personal man at arms. Outside of work he’s a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids.

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Mister attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. In today's episode, Oz Austwick and I talk about the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey. After six weeks of data collection, we've seen some really interesting insights that we'll share and we'll also announce a new digital sustainability initiative that we're really excited about. 

Paul Marden: Hello, Oz. How you doing, mate? 

Oz Austwick: Hi, I'm good, mate, I'm good. How are you? 

Paul Marden: I am very good. On a slightly gray summer's day, hopefully, you know, all the private schools have broken up, so it should start to get busy in the attractions over the next couple of weeks and then we've got all the state schools breaking up in the next few weeks as well. So exciting times, hopefully. Hopefully busy times as well. 

Oz Austwick: Yes. So what are we going to talk about today? 

Paul Marden: Well, we are going to talk a little bit about the survey, but I thought it might be quite nice as well to talk a little bit about what's happening in the news because there's quite a lot at the moment. 

Oz Austwick: There is been a bit of a change of boss, haven't there has been. 

Paul Marden: A change of boss recently. But before we do that, shall we talk about where have we been recently? Tell me, tell me, which attraction have you been to recently? 

Oz Austwick: So this is why you're here, to keep me on track. The most recent attraction I've been to is Hazelmere Museum in Surrey. It's a bit of an eye opener, to be honest. I've always had a bit of a love for these tiny little provincial, formerly council run museums that you find in little towns around the country because you come across some amazing gems hidden in them. But Hazelmere Museum is a little bit different. I mean, it's astonishing. It's got a vast catalogue of natural history stuff. I mean, hundreds of thousands of pieces in the catalogue there. They've got an Egyptian section as well, with a sarcophagus and a mummy. Yeah, it's a great place. It's hidden away in this tiny little market town and if you get the opportunity, go, because it's great. 

Oz Austwick: But there is no parking, so you have to park in the town centre and walk along, which is the only downside I can come up with. How about you? Where have you been? 

Paul Marden: Sounds awesome. I have been to a few tiny little museums, actually. Recently I went to Winchester with my daughter and we did some of the military museums in Winchester because there's quite a few regimental museums in Winchester. They are all of them, you know, hyper focused on a particular regiment doing very specific things. So, you know, there's a cavalry museum and infantry museums. And it's just really interesting. My brother was in the army. It's quite nice to be able to take Millie and walk her around some of these military museums and for her to connect with what he did when he was in the army. So we’re able to see, there's a little piece in one of the museums showing the war in Kosovo and how peacekeepers went over. And my brother had a medal from going to Bosnia. 

Paul Marden: He went to in peacekeeping back in the ’90s. That was very interesting for her to be in a museum and connect with something that's of relevance to the family. He was slightly offended when I told him. Also, we saw model of Pegasus Bridge. And she was like, “Was he at Pegasus Bridge?” And I was like, “No, no. Uncle Barry's not quite that old. No, that's about 40 years too old for Uncle Barry.”

Oz Austwick: Yeah. Do you know, I remember I went to Pegasus Bridge completely by accident once. Literally. We were just driving back and went, “Hang on a minute. This looks familiar. “Yeah. We stopped off at the cafe and had a wander around the bridge. And you can still see the bullet holes in the walls of the cafe building. And there are still tanks. Amazing place. Anyway, sorry, I digress. 

Paul Marden: No, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about what's happening in the news at the moment. Anything that springs to mind for you? 

Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, obviously, the change of government, I don't think it came as a big surprise to anyone. Maybe the actual numbers were a little surprising, but the fact that we've now got a Labour Prime Minister with a fairly clear majority I don't think was a massive surprise. How that's going to play out in terms of the sector, I don't know. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, we've got a different culture sector in place, haven't we, than were perhaps anticipating. So there's few changes of personnel than we perhaps anticipated. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, I mean, I guess we'll wait and see. It's probably just a result of the change, but I guess I'm feeling fairly optimistic that things might improve. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I feel an air of optimism that we haven't had for quite some time. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. 

Paul Marden: Interesting times, other things in the sector. Interesting, exciting news. The Young V&A were awarded the Art Fund Museum of the Year. That's a, you know, a new museum that's doing lots of amazing work. We're real focused on kids and families. Lots of. Lots of co creation with young people involved in it. So that's quite exciting stuff. And it comes with a really hefty prize fund as well. So. So they got quite a nice pat on the back, a gong and some money as well to be able to fund their good work. So that's exciting. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good for them. Anything else? Yeah, Bloomberg. I think we should probably talk a little bit about Bloomberg earlier in the year. We talked a lot about to a lot of people about the fact that Bloomberg philanthropies were awarding grants as part of their accelerator program for attractions, culturally significant attractions, to improve their digital presence. And that's kind of happened. A lot of awards have been made, attractions have got money to spend, and that's beginning to work its way out into the community now. So I'm really looking forward to seeing if that actually makes a significant difference to the overall level of websites. And I guess we'll probably have to wait until next year with the survey to find out if there's been a change in the sector. 

Oz Austwick: But I think for those attractions that have received the money, it can't be anything but a positive thing. 

Paul Marden: I was quite impressed because it's not just money that they're getting. They're getting help and support from Bloomberg as well to guide them in the use of that money. Because I think sometimes you see charities getting awarded large chunks of money and sometimes it can be a challenge for them to spend that money effectively, whereas by being provided guidance from Bloomberg, you know, you can see that money is going to be well spent and well used. So that's. I'm pleased about that. It'll be really exciting to see some of those projects come to fruition. I was pretty excited about a couple of science centre related news items. So we the curious in Bristol has reopened after two years of being closed in fire. So that was, I think that was monumental for them to be able to turn that around. It was really. 

Paul Marden: I was really pleased to see them reopen. That's definitely on my list of things I need to do this summer, is go and visit them and see what amazing things they've done. Absolutely. And then we've also got Cambridge Science Centre as well, will be due to open in a couple of weeks time. So they've opened their ticketing up. So people can now buy tickets to go to Cambridge Science Centre who have been a little bit like we the curious. They've been without a physical home for a period of time and are reopening a physical offering again. So that's exciting to be able to go and buy your tickets and head on over to Cambridge Science Centre.

Oz Austwick: And Kids in Museums as well. I'm not going to talk about it because I know you know a lot more about it than me. But they're looking for volunteers, right? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So I think we talked in a number of episodes about the Family Friendly Museum Awards and short lists of those have been announced. That includes Young V&A again. And we're looking for volunteer families to go undercover and do the judging. And I love it. The idea that families will get. They will have a contribution to the cost of money, pay expenses for them to go undercover and do this judging. And the feedback we get from those families is amazing. At the awards last year, each time an award was announced, we get a little snippet of what the undercover judges actually said and it's surprising what kids find important to them. The benches were comfy or the cafe was nice, you know, little things that perhaps adults might notice, you know, comes out in that undercover judging. 

Paul Marden: So, yeah, Kids in Museums need volunteers. Head on over to the website to go and find out a little bit more about that undercover judging. If you'd like to get involved in it. That's the news. But what do we really want to talk about? 

Oz Austwick: We really want to talk about our survey. 

Paul Marden: We really do. It's exciting. 

Oz Austwick: In fairness, we're kind of always talking about the survey at the moment. So now we're just going to talk to you about the survey rather than each other and anyone that will listen. 

Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. 

Oz Austwick: We've been open for submissions for, what, six weeks now? 

Paul Marden: About that, I think. Yeah.

Oz Austwick: A few weeks to go. It's proving really interesting. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Oz Austwick: Is that enough of the hook? Have we got you now? One of the things that I think is probably worth saying is that somehow, and whilst we wanted this to happen, I don't think we specifically planned for it, we've kind of lost a lot of the kind of fake submissions that we've had in previous years where people were clearly just having a look at the survey or not bothering to fill it in, or maybe it was bots doing it and we don't seem to have those. So the overall quality of the responses is just fantastic. And some of the venues that have submitted their data to the survey, I mean, they're astonishing. I'm not going to name any names because I don't know if I'm allowed to. 

Paul Marden: No, you're definitely not allowed to. 

Oz Austwick: Some of the biggest and most famous attractions in the country. Or even the world because we are worldwide this year. 

Paul Marden: But more importantly, also the smallest museums you could possibly imagine are in that data set as well. So what have we seen? We got all of these amazing responses. We've still got a couple of weeks left to go. We don't want anyone to feel left out. We definitely want more people to respond over the next couple of weeks. But let's give some teasers. What have we seen that we thought was interesting? 

Oz Austwick: Before we do, can I just make a couple of points that I think everybody needs to be aware of? The first is that any data you put in is absolutely confidential in every way. We're never going to release your data to the wider world. All the data that gets released is aggregated together and is done in a way that is completely anonymous. But what that does is it allows us to give sector wide data and we can give your data in comparison to that, so you can and see where you are. So there's no risk of anything getting out in the wide world that you don't want out there. It's completely non commercial. You know, we're not making money from this, we're not doing this, we're not asking for your data in order that we can make money. 

Oz Austwick: This is to give back to the community. We want people to have the information so that they can make the right decisions. And also, you don't have to fill in everything. If you look at it and think, you know, I ought to fill this in, I want to fill it in, but I haven't got time to do the whole thing, do half of it, that's okay. Even if you only fill in one question, that will improve the value of that answer to the entire sector. I'll shush now. Sorry. Let's look at some action figures. 

Paul Marden: Let's talk about some of the interesting findings. We've definitely found some things where we've gone. “Oh, really? Oh, how interesting.” So for me, one of them, I'm a tech geek. Everybody knows I'm a tech geek. Okay. Ticketing systems, content management systems, that's my bag. I was quite interested this year that we're seeing much more parity in terms of the ticketing system data that we're getting. So there is a number of ticketing systems where in previous years there's been a substantial number of people selecting Digitickets. In previous years we're seeing more. We're seeing more responses from other respondents this year with different ticketing systems. And I think we've said this before, it's nothing. These aren't necessarily indicating changes in the behaviour of the sector. 

Paul Marden: It more speaks to the different people that are responding in different years and we're seeing more responses from different people this year. And so we are seeing different ticketing systems appearing alongside Digitickets as key. You spotted something that surprised you, didn't you, in that respect? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. When we designed the survey went through all of the ticketing systems that were familiar with and all of the names that we knew but hadn't had specific experience of working with. And we created what we thought was a really comprehensive listing of ticketing systems. But we allowed people to tick other and then write in what they were using and we clearly missed one big player from that list and they're probably the highest ranked so far. I haven't actually looked for the last week or so. They're certainly up there. They may not be the most popular but they're one of the most popular and it came as a complete surprise to us. So, you know, do make sure that you get your report because there is stuff in it that surprises even if it's just me, I mean. 

Oz Austwick: But you may well be surprised by some of the results of that. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, we saw interesting shifts. So we've done a little bit of year on year analysis as well. Already we've seen that there are more people selecting WordPress as their CMS. So that's now around half of all respondents have selected WordPress as their content management system. 

Oz Austwick: I'm going to take issue with your phrasing there because I'm not sure that's an accurate description. 

Paul Marden: Why? 

Oz Austwick: Because I don't necessarily think we've seen more people selecting WordPress, but we've certainly had more people stating they use WordPress. They may have been using WordPress years, much like the ticketing system. What we've got is a snapshot of the people who have submitted. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, so I meant selected the tick box as opposed to selected the technology platform. But you're absolutely right. It is indicative of the responses that we're getting this year. And it's not. They're not eating away market share from the other CMS's. I think we're seeing more people being able to tell us what the CMS that they're using is. So fewer people are saying I don't know or I can't track this, and actually giving us answer. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, we made a real conscious effort to try and reduce the number of people just saying other. And I think that's probably made a big difference to these. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, up around is around 11% now, up from 4% in 2023. So that's quite interesting. We're definitely going to do some analysis this year to try and see. Can we slice and dice some of the other data by technology platforms to see if any of these platforms give those people that select them an edge in terms of their performance or their sustainability scores or things like that? 

Oz Austwick: I know one of the things that we noticed last year was that the bigger, more successful venues were more likely to use Umbraco or perhaps the other way around. The venues that used Umbraco were more likely to be the bigger, more successful venues, but there was no way of telling which was cause and which was effect or whether they were just completely disconnected at all. And hopefully now, because we've got a slightly bigger sample size, we might be able to be a bit more accurate with that. Rather than stating this is a correlation, maybe there's something we can actually action from this. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. You had some interesting stuff that you saw around how easy people find it to find stuff, didn't you? 

Oz Austwick: Yes. There's been a long debate that's been going on for longer than I've been with Rubber Cheese about the value of self reporting. And I know that there were some conversations with the Advisory Board that we put together to help design the survey this year about whether that was a valuable thing to do. And I think that, because that's how we've done it for the last few years, we've stuck with it. But also, I think as long as you're open about the fact that this is self reporting, the figure is still accurate. So when we ask people how easy it is for visitors to their website to find what they're looking for, over half of them ranked 8, 9 or 10 out of 10, so that it was very easy. 

Oz Austwick: And nobody ranked zero, one or two, so nobody thought that it was really difficult to find stuff on their website. But 50% of sites have never actually tested the site or collected feedback from users. So how valuable that figure is a different question. Yeah, we'll come to that later, because there's an important point that I think we're going to make later on about how we can make that figure more valuable. 

Paul Marden: You also saw some stuff around personalisation, didn't you? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. The personalisation things are really important because as a marketer, you go along to agency groups and conferences and workshops and webinars, and for years, if not decades, people have been talking about how important personalisation is. If you've got anybody in your organisation that works with email newsletters, personalisation is absolutely key. And it's really clear that the more you personalise, the better you do. And 90% of the people who filled in the survey agree that personalisation is more important than not. However, only 9% of websites are offering personalised content. 

Paul Marden: It's a bit heartbreaking, isn't it? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. Obviously we don't know why and we can say that even at this point, without the survey having finished, that's already up from last year. It was 6% last year and now it's at 9%, which doesn't feel like a big improvement, but it's a 50% increase. 

Paul Marden: It'd be interesting to slice that again and see is that the 9% that have personalisation, are they the attractions with larger footfall and larger budgets and that's why they can afford to do this and that's the big barrier to entry? Or is there a something else that actually know that smaller sites with less traffic and less footfall at the attraction can still offer personalisation? It's not just about budgets and some people can use this stuff and get really good outcomes from it, or spending all that time and effort mean that you get no real outcome of it anyway, and that all of those people that think it's really important are kidding themselves. And that's the great thing about the survey, isn't it, that we've got all of this data and we can start to draw those conclusions from it? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is going to be a really interesting one to follow over the next year or two to see if. Is this year's number an actual increase or is it just a more accurate number? Yes, and I guess we can only see that as a trend over time. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: Now, you were very keen that we included some questions about AI and the use of AI. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Oz Austwick: Have there been any interesting findings there? 

Paul Marden: Yes. So the majority of people have used some sort of AI content generation tool, so they've used ChatGPT or the like to be able to do generative AI, writing, copy and that kind of thing. We've not gone into depth about how much they've used it. Do they use it extensively? Is it part of their day to day work? It was simply a question of have you used any of these tools? So, you know, over half have used a tool like that. There is also hidden in that data set there's a few attractions that are doing some pretty innovative things with AI as well. So there's a couple that are using things like AI powered CRM or AI powered scheduling or workforce management. So earlier on you said everybody's submissions is completely anonymous. That is completely true. 

Paul Marden: But I am definitely going to be tapping up those people that gave us the interesting answers to say, “Would you like to come and tell the story in more detail?” So, yes, you're right, we're never going to share anybody's data, and we're never going to share anybody's stories without their permission. We will definitely, over the next few weeks and months, as we're planning the report, we're definitely going to go to the people that have given us interesting data that has made us go, that's very interesting, and talking to them. So we'll find out a little bit more about what those people are doing. But you had an interesting observation, didn't you? If half of the people have used something like ChatGPT, that leaves about half the people that haven't used it. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, it's really difficult to know from where we sit as a digital agency that is constantly trying to stay ahead of the curve and understand new technologies and how they might be relevant and how we can use them to help our clients. You know, we may be, are we more familiar with this than most people, or is the way we see it representative? It's really hard to know. And I find it really hard to believe that the approaching half of visitor attractions simply haven't even looked at it. They've not even gone to ChatGPT and said, you know, find me a title for this blog post or something like that. It just seems that maybe they're missing a trick. 

Oz Austwick: And I'm not suggesting that you should go out and get vast amounts of content written by AI and plaster it all over your site. We know that Google is specifically and deliberately penalising sites it knows are doing that, but you can certainly use it to maybe improve your language. Or if you can't come up with a catchy title, you can ask for twelve different suggestions for titles and pick and choose. I find it really hard to believe that half the people haven't even done that, but that could just be my context. 

Paul Marden: I think you might be sat in a little bubble of your own making. I sat with people recently and walked them through. How do you prompt ChatGPT? What does prompting even mean? And talking about how is it doing it? And talking about the idea that it's all just probabilities. It's not intelligent, it's just using probabilities to figure out what the next word is. Yeah. And what does that actually mean to people? I definitely think that we sit in a bubble where we are. We are not experts. Neither of us, I think, would consider ourselves experts at best, gentlemen amateurs. But I think we sit in a bubble of people that are using this a lot and are experimenting with it. I don't know. 

Paul Marden: I think there's a place for Skip the Queue to look at this next year, to look at what are the innovative things that people are doing. But also starting at the 101 class, what does it all mean? What are these things? How could they be useful to you? How could you make use of ChatGPT to accelerate your content creation, to come up with new ideas that you haven't potentially thought of? So definitely, I think there's space in Season 6 for us to delve into this in more detail. There's one more area that I think we added this year that we're really excited about, isn't there, around sustainability. 

Paul Marden: Not because we think we are thought leaders on this, not because we think we're on the cutting edge, but because we're learning so much around this at the moment and really changing the way that we work, aren't we? 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a really important point. It's something that. Oh, which conference was it? I think were both there. One of the agencynomics conferences, Joss from Enviral, made the point that this is actually our problem. If websites are out there and they aren't sustainable and they are causing damage, it's the fault of the companies that have built them. And really, that's us. So we kind of feel that we have to be at least trying to take the lead in helping fix that. And you can't do anything to fix the issue unless you've got the knowledge and the understanding of where you are. And I guess that's where we are at the moment. We've asked a few really basic questions, but they've given some quite interesting statistics. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So most attractions have got good intentions, so most have got a sustainability plan in place. We've not asked what that plan looks like or how comprehensive it is. It was simply, does your attraction have a sustainability plan? And most people have said yes to that. 

Oz Austwick: When you say it's a majority, I think it's quite important to note that this isn't like 56%, this is a huge majority. The vast majority of sites have sustainability plan to the point where you could say almost everybody does. Not quite everybody, but almost everybody. But that does make the fact that very few have actually specifically measured the carbon footprint of their website a little bit more shocking. 

Paul Marden: So that's the big, “Oh, really moment” for us was the idea that most people have got a sustainability plan. Some have even actually taken action to improve the sustainability posture of their website, but very few have actually ever measured the CO2 emissions of their website. So they don't, they're not benchmarking. This is not a coherent plan where you measure, take action, measure again and then replan. Very few of the attractions have actually done that measurement process. We know, we know from recent episodes where we talked about sustainability, the importance of measuring in terms of helping you construct a plan and working in a methodical way to improve the CO2 emissions and improve that sustainability posture. And I think we've recognised as a result of doing the survey that there is some impediment that is stopping people from measuring. 

Paul Marden: We're not entirely sure we understand what the impediment is, but there is definitely something getting in the way of people being able to measure. And I think that's our. There's the big thing that I wanted to be able to share today that we have decided as a result of doing the survey and then started to run through, we could see that most people haven't tested the CO2 emissions. So what we have done is we've enriched the database of all of the respondents that we've had this year and gone and done the CO2 emissions tests of their websites for them. Now, obviously, we're going to keep that private to us. We're not singling anybody out, but we are going to be able to aggregate together what the whole industry looks like as a result of the testing that we have done. 

Paul Marden: The testing, to be fair, is not just restricted to the people that have responded to the survey. We are also going and testing more widely across the entire sector to be able to get an understanding of what the CO2 emissions of the websites of the wider sector look like. So that's been, that's something that we've been really pleased that we've been able to do and it's something that we want to be able to offer out to everybody that has taken part in the survey. So one of the things that I guess we're announcing today that is a key thing that we've not talked about throughout the whole survey process, is we're going to give everybody that has taken part in the survey the opportunity to download the CO2 emissions report that we have gathered for them on their website. 

Paul Marden: So they will be able to see a grading of A to F as to what their CO2 emissions look like. They'll also see that broken down in a little bit more granular detail around the page size, the amount of CO2 that is emitted by the page, one page of their site, and a rough estimate of what that turns into in terms of CO2 emissions for their entire site. And that's something that we will share with everybody at the end of the survey. So this year, it's not just going to be one large survey that aggregates everybody's data together. We will also give individualised reports to everybody for them to be able to see where their CO2 emissions are in terms of their website.

Paul Marden: With ideas we're hopefully going to work with friends of Skip the Queue and supporters of the survey to be able to come up with ideas around how you can actually improve that CO2 posture, which could, that could be an amazing thing for us to run the survey again next year, gather that data again and see today, as we're recording, BBC is running the Michael Mosely just one thing in memory of Michael Moseley. I think we can take inspiration from that. What if every attraction that got access to their report did just one thing to improve the CO2 posture of their website? What difference is that going to make to us as a sector as a whole in that one year process? 

Paul Marden: Because there will bound to be a few little things that you can do, knobs to twiddle and features to add on your website that will just improve that CO2 emissions posture just a little bit and make everybody better as a result of it. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting that even though we haven't got the full data yet, and we've not put it together in any meaningful way, it's already changed the way we work as an agency. But not only that, there are other changes going on in the wider community as well, because the website briefs we're getting through from attractions are talking about this more. So I guess from a personal perspective, if you're putting together a brief for a new website or an app or some kind of new digital service, put this in there, ask that somebody pays some attention to the footprint and the impact of your new site and make it part of the decision making process. 

Paul Marden: Procurement managers have the control. I absolutely believe that the person that holds the purse strings gets to set the direction of the project. And just like accessibility is always on, every tender, sustainability should be there. This is a easily, trivially measurable thing. And when procurement managers hold us to account, the industry will improve as a result of being held to account like that. 

Oz Austwick: Yes. Now, the sustainability reporting isn't the only new thing that we're going to do. There's one more big thing that we're going to do as part of the survey to try and make. Make the data far more valid and applicable. Do you want to say what it is? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I'll take this one. Because this was an idea I had. It was an idea I had a few months ago. I would love to get real end consumer input into the survey. We asked attractions, how important is personalisation? Have you done user testing? How easy was it for people to traverse your website? We're actually going to go out and survey people who have visited a large attraction in the last year and ask them, how easy was it to buy your tickets? We could be asking them about personalisation. We could be asking them about, is sustainability a key deciding buying factor for you? There's lots of things that we could ask people as part of this consumer research piece that we're about to embark on. 

Paul Marden: I think it's really exciting to be able to join up the voice of the consumer with the voice of the attractions in the Rubber Cheese Survey as a whole. 

Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. Not only will it give us that knowledge from the other side of the transaction, but it'll let us know really very quickly whether the self reporting that people are doing as part of the survey is actually accurate. Is your view of how easy your website is to use, is that accurate? Is that the same view that people coming to your website for the first time have? Because we're all familiar with our own website and if you've designed the user experience, you probably think it's great and it may well be, but unless you actually test it and ask people, you can't know either way. So I think this is a really exciting thing to do and it allows us to kind of draw in more important information that can help us all as a sector improve.

Paul Marden: Completely. And we've got a little ask in terms of that, haven't we? We would love to hear from you if you have got input into that consumer research, if you've got ideas of things, we could be asking real people that go to real attractions about how they use the website. You know, let us know. We'd love to hear feedback either. You know, send us a message on Twitter, reach out by email. There's links all in the show notes that will help you to make contact with us. But please just make contact and let us know. We've got amazing feedback from the advisory board and we will be talking about this piece of research with the advisory board before the survey goes out to the real people. But you've got a chance at the moment to be able to input to that. 

Paul Marden: So please do let us know what you think would be interesting. 

Oz Austwick: And whilst we're asking things of you, I've got a few more things that we want to ask. 

Paul Marden: Go on then. What do you want? What do you want? 

Oz Austwick: Well, all sorts of things. But for today, if you haven't filled in the survey, please do go along to rubbercheese.com. There's a link on the homepage through to the survey. There are different surveys for different parts of the world. Just click on the link, fill it in. You don't have to do the whole thing. Even if it's a partial response, it's still helpful. So please go along, give it a try. I'm led to believe, and I haven't tested this so I'm not going to state for effect, but if you half fill in the survey and then go away and come back on the same computer using the same browser, you'll go back in at the point that you'd got to so you can finish it. It depends on your cookie settings, but that's what is claimed. 

Oz Austwick: But even if it doesn't happen, you know, a half survey response is better than none. 

Paul Marden: We'd also like you to nag your mates as well. You know, I've been messaging people that have been responding and so many of the marketers that are filling in the survey are part of communities of other marketers. They're parts of communities, regional communities, Wales communities, or they're parts of sector specific. There's so many different groups and organisations that are working together. If you can, please raise the profile of the survey, stick a link in your WhatsApp group with all the people that you work with around you. We would really appreciate that. Obviously, the more people that submit, the better the data set. The more money we'll donate to Kids in Museums as a result of what we do. 

Paul Marden: And of course now everybody that submits will get their personalised sustainability report at the end as well, which is another great incentive to get involved. 

Oz Austwick: I guess the other thing is that if you filled in the survey before and you don't think you've got time to do the whole thing again from scratch, do let us know because we can quite happily provide you with all of the previous answers that you've given that are relevant to this year's survey and then you can just update or fill in the gaps. We're very happy to do that if it would be helpful. And still for those multi site organisations, if that's an easier way for you, for us to provide you with a spreadsheet that you can just put data into, we're very happy to do that too. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. And the spreadsheet approach again lends itself very well. You don't have to answer everything. If you don't want to share information about the technology platforms you're using, that's fine. If you don't want to share information about your Google Analytics, that's fine. The more data that we get, even if it is partial data, it enriches what we've got and we get a better picture of the entire sector as a result of that. So, yeah, really keen to get input from more people. So that's our call to action. You've got one more thing you want touch on, don't you? You've got your book recommendation that you want to share with us. So tell us what your book is. 

Oz Austwick: Well, before I do, there are a couple of things I have to say. The first is that I realise that this is tangentially connected to the visitor attraction sector. That'll become clear, I'm sure, as soon as I reveal the book. The other is that I am an absolute massive history geek. So the book I would like to recommend that if you haven't read this is The Mary Rose by Margaret Rule, which is the story of the excavation and recovery of the Mary Rose itself. I don't know how old you are, dear listener, but I remember sitting in the hall of my school, my primary school up in Yorkshire, with a big TV in a box on a stand with this on the BBC Live and watching it be raised from the depths. And that's kind of stuck with me. 

Oz Austwick: So it's lovely to read the story of it from the person who kind of made it happen. And then when you've read the book, go down to Portsmouth and have a look because it is a visitor attraction. 

Paul Marden: Now, I guess it helps you with diving the 4D because you get the fuller picture of the whole story and then you go and do dive the 4D experience and you get to experience a little bit of what that excavation was actually like. And I bet you like any good book to a movie. The book tells the story in much more detail than the movie ever can. 

Oz Austwick: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Without a doubt. In fairness, it's going to be tricky to get a copy of this book to somebody because I don't think it's in print anymore. So it will be a secondhand copy. I've checked. You can get them. Abe books has a few. 

Paul Marden: Are you going to bankrupt me? 

Oz Austwick: No, no. It's not one of those secondhand books. Don't worry, it's probably cheaper than a new one. Now all the booksellers that are listening are going to put their prices up. But, yeah, comment on Twitter. Sorry, Twitter x. If you want the book and the first person will send it out to. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, so go find the show announcement, retweet it and say, I want Oz's book. And yep, we will find that and we will send a copy of the book. That will be a challenge for the team behind us that do all of the behind the scenes production to actually try and figure out how you order a secondhand book and get it delivered to somebody different. It's easy on Amazon. Not so easy on a secondhand book site, so that'll be interesting. 

Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, eBay Books is owned by Amazon, so, you know, there'll be a way. 

Paul Marden: I'm sure that's a wonderful book, is a wonderful location. If you haven't been before. It's an amazing attraction to go and visit. They've got a pretty good website as well. I think we've said it before. 

Oz Austwick: It's true. I've heard good things about their website. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, they seem happy. Great to talk to you again. As always, our little fireside chats are very enjoyable. We do tend to ramble on. We've got one more episode left of Season 5, but planning is underway for season six in the autumn, so nearly we're in the home straight now. 

Oz Austwick: Definitely do make sure you follow and you won't miss season six. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! 

• Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
• Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
• Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
• Learn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion rates
• Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report
 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, CEO of Rubber Cheese.

Fill in the Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 17th July 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://aerstudios.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesliweb/

Tools for Sustainability:

https://ecograder.com/

https://www.websitecarbon.com/

James Hobbs is a people-focused technologist with over 15 years experience working in a range of senior software engineering roles with a particular focus on digital sustainability.
He is Head of Technology at creative technology studio, aer studios, leading the technology team delivering outstanding work for clients including Dogs Trust, BBC, Historic Royal Palaces, and many others. Prior to joining aer studios, James was Head of Engineering at digital agency Great State, where he led a multi-award-winning software engineering team working with clients including the Royal Navy, Ministry of Defence, Honda Europe, the Scouts, and others.

He also has many years experience building and running high-traffic, global e-commerce systems while working at Dyson, where he headed up the global digital technical team.

Transcription: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Mister attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. 

The last twelve months have been the warmest of any twelve month period since records began. And while over 70% of attractions have a sustainability policy, only 12% have actually tested the CO2 emissions of their website. In today's episode, we're joined by James Hobbs, Head of Technology at aer studios and a member of the Umbraco Community Sustainability Team. James shares some easily actionable tips to reduce the emissions of your website. 

Paul Marden: James, welcome to skip the queue. Lovely to have you. 

James Hobbs: Thanks for having me. 

Paul Marden: So we always start with some icebreaker questions. So it would be unfair if I didn't inflict the same pain on you. 

James Hobbs: Go for it. 

Paul Marden: Let's start with a nice one, I think. What actor would you want to play you in a film about your life? 

James Hobbs: I mean, instinctively, I'd say someone like Jack Black. Just think he's really funny. A lot more funny than me. I'm not sure how much of a resemblance there is. He's got a much better beard than I do someone. Yeah. If there's gonna be an adaptation, I'd like it to be funny. 

Paul Marden: I like the idea of that one. I think I'd struggle with that one. I'd struggle to pick. Yeah, you know, it's gotta be an archetypal geek that would play me in the story of my life. I'm not sure who that would be. 

James Hobbs: Not John Cena or something like that. 

Paul Marden: So the next one, I'd say this one I found really hard, actually. What was your dream job when you were growing up? 

James Hobbs: Oh, okay. So I can answer that one easily because my parents still take the Mickey out of me for it. So when I was quite young, I told them very kind of certified. When I grow up, I want to be part time mechanic, part time librarian. 

Paul Marden: Well, that's an interesting job, shed. 

James Hobbs: Yeah, it's really random, I think, because I like, I love books. I love reading. Did back then, still do now. I also like dismantling things. I was never very good at putting them back together and then continuing to work. But, yeah, that was my aspiration when I was a kid. 

Paul Marden: I remember going to careers advisors and just some of the tosh, they would tell you. So everybody was told they could be an undertaker and you got your typical finance jobs. But I really. I desperately wanted to be a pilot. And I was told by the optician I couldn't because of eyesight, which was nonsense. But actually, I couldn't have done the job because I have a zero sense of direction. So later in life, when I trained for my private pilot's license, I got hopelessly lost a couple of times. The RAF are very helpful, though, when that happens. 

James Hobbs: They come up, fly alongside you and tell you to get out of their airspace. 

Paul Marden: They don't like people invading the Heathrow airspace. And I was dangerously close to it at the time. 

James Hobbs: Nice. 

Paul Marden: That's another story, though. But no, they sent me from my work experience to work in the local council finance department. Department, which I don't think could be more different than being a pilot if you actually tried. 

James Hobbs: I mean, it's not the most glamorous, I mean, it's important, but, you know, it's not quite Top Gun, is it? 

Paul Marden: No, no. Exactly. There you go. Tom Cruise. That can. He can play me in the film of my life. James. So we want to talk a little bit about digital sustainability. So I thought it'd be quite nice for you to tell the listeners a little bit about your background in digital and more specifically the stuff that you've been doing more recently in digital sustainability. 

James Hobbs: Okay, I'll give you the most succinct property history I can. So I guess my background 15, 16 years ago started off as a developer, not a very good one. And since then I've worked for a range of different sorts of organisations. So everything from a local council, national charity, global manufacturing company, and then two digital agencies. For the last ten years or so, I've been more in leadership positions, obviously have to stay close to the technology. And in more recent years, one of the big passions of mine, I suppose, or something I'm really interested is the sustainability side of digital, because I think it's interesting and that we can make a massive impact, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point. 

James Hobbs: But my current role is I'm Head of Technology at a creative technology studio called aer studios, who also share my enthusiasm for sustainability. So I'm excited to do some work there. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. And my background stalking of you told me that air does some work in the attraction sector as well, doesn't it? So you work with a few attractions? 

James Hobbs: Yes, that's right. Yeah, we've got a few. 

Paul Marden: So there's some form here. 

James Hobbs: Yeah, I would say so. 

Paul Marden: Cool. One of the things that I know that you've been working with is so we're both. We've spent a lot of time in the Umbraco community, and Embraco is a content management system that a few attractions use not many, but some tend to be larger organisations that use Umbraco typically. But we've both spent time in the Umbraco community going to lots of events and talking to a lot of people. But one of the contributions you've made over the recent period is joining the Umbraco Sustainability Team. What is it, what does it do and who's involved in it? 

James Hobbs: Okay, so the Umbraco has this concept of community teams, which I think is a, Umbraco is a very unique organisation. Anyway, you know this because you're part of community as well, but they have a very strong connection and link with the community of developers. And not just developers, anyone who has anything to do with Umbraco and works with it. And the sustainability team is one of the several community teams that exist. The idea is that it brings together people from Umbraco's and people from the community who have a shared passion in something relevant to Umbraco to help steer it, share knowledge, and ultimately achieve a goal. And for the sustainability community team, the goal is to, I guess it's multifaceted. Firstly to make Umbraco as a product more sustainable, which is brilliant. 

James Hobbs: Secondly, to raise awareness of what organisations or individuals need to do to be able to improve the sustainability posture of whatever they're up to, which is brilliant as well. So there's a very umbraco focused side to it, but there's also a wider kind of awareness raising, educational side of it too, because this is a very, its a quite a new, say, it's a relatively new thing. I think digital sustainability as a concept completely hasn't really existed for that long, unfortunately. But now it does. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. And theres been some impact as well that the team has had on the product and the direction of the product isn't there. 

James Hobbs: Yeah. So and again, this is, there's several of us in this community team and I want to make it really clear that like a lot of work's gone on. It's not just me doing it. So we've managed to achieved a few things. So first of all, the Umbraco website, they launched a new website a little while ago. Its sustainability posture wasn't great. So we've worked with them, people that internally built that to improve it, and that's made a massive difference. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. 

James Hobbs: It's gone from being dirtier than a large majority of websites to being cleaner than most, which is great. We've pulled together some documentation for covering all sorts of areas from front end, back end development, content editing and so on, to educate people on how to build more sustainable websites. And some of the team members as well have built an Umbraco package, an open source package that you can install into Umbraco, and it will advise you in terms of the pages that you're making, whether they are good from a carbon footprint point of view or not. And we'll give you a rating, which is superb because it brings that whole thing in much closer to the end users who'll be making the pages. So that was a really nice piece of work. And on top of that, we do appear on things like this. Do webinars and talk at conferences and stuff. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, and I think Andy Eva-Dalefrom Tangent is one of the members of the team. And honestly it was Andy who totally opened my eyes to this whole subject when I first started seeing him talk about it and giving some stats, and we'll talk a little more about those later on. There's definitely an impact that the team is having and it's really weird, isn't it? I mean, I don't want to geek out too much about Umbraco and the community, but there is something quite special about this commercial organisation that has open source software that gets given away for free, that collaborates with the community to build a product which is easy to use, pretty cool, really effective, but also sustainable as well. There's not many organisations that work in that way. 

James Hobbs: Yeah, it's unique and I love it. I think it's great. It just shows you it's possible to run a business and make money, but also have a really engaged community of passionate people and work together. I think it's brilliant. 

Paul Marden: Look, let's just take a step back from geeking out about Umbraco. Then I want to set the scene. Longtime listeners will know that Rubber Cheese run a visitor attraction website survey. We've done it for two years in a row. This year we simplified the survey down to make space for some more questions. And one of the key questions we've talked about is Sustainability. We are still just over the halfway point of the survey period, so there are still lots of responses coming in. But based on the data that we've got so far, we know that 72% of attractions in the current survey have got a sustainability policy, but only 12% of attractions have ever tested the CO2 emissions of their website. And we'll come to in a minute why we think the measurement and focusing on CO2 emissions in digital is important. 

Paul Marden: But whilst very few are actually testing their site, nearly half of all of the respondents so far have attempted something to reduce the CO2 emissions of their website. So there's clearly action going on, but it's not necessarily driving in a coherent direction because there's no clear benchmarking and target setting and retesting. So I think what I'd like to cover today is for us to understand that a little bit more, get under the skin of it a little bit, and then talk a little bit about how we can actually reduce the CO2 emissions, how can we actually make things different and why we might want to do it. Because it's more than just kind of the ethical, we all should be doing something. There were some real business benefits to it as well. My next question, without stating the bleeding obvious. 

Paul Marden: Okay, why do you think digital sustainability matters? I mean, the obvious answer is just because it does. But it's important, isn't it, as a contributor to global warming? 

James Hobbs: Yeah. So, I mean, there's lots of statistics knocking around, one of which I think it shows you the scale of the impact of the digital industry is. I think the total carbon footprint emissions of the digital industry is greater than global air traffic. And if you go and look on something like Flightradar or Skyscanner or whatever, and look at how many planes are in the air at any given moment in time, that's a pretty sobering statistic. There's lots of other ones as well, in terms of the amount of electricity that's being used, and water compared to even small countries like New Zealand. So we are generating a hell of a lot of carbon directly and indirectly, by doing all the things that we do. 

James Hobbs: And every time you hold up your phone and you load up Instagram or TikTok or download something, there's a massive disconnect cognitively, because it's just there and it just works and it doesn't feel like it's using up electricity and so on, but it is. There's a whole massive supply chain behind all of the lovely things we like to do on our devices that is hungry for electricity and generates pollution and that kind of thing. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So my background was at British Airways and I was there for ten years. It really wasn't that hard to spot the fact that environmentally, that we have a challenging problem. Because when you stood on the end of Heathrow Runway, you can see what's coming out the back end of a 747 as it takes off. But I don't think I ever quite understood the impact of what I do now and how that's contributing more to CO2 emissions than what I was doing previously, which. Yeah, I just don't think there's an awareness of that more broadly. 

James Hobbs: No, yeah, I'd agree. And it's complicated. 

Paul Marden: In what way? 

James Hobbs: I guess it's complicated to quantify the carbon impact of the type of work that we do in the digital industry, because I guess there's what we're shipping to end users, which is one thing. But most modern websites and applications and stuff are built on a big tower of cloud services providers, and all of their equipment has to be manufactured which has a carbon impact. And rare earth metals need to be mined out of the grid. All of that stuff. There's a big supply chain backing all this stuff and we can influence some of that directly, but a large chunk of it we can't. So it makes choosing your suppliers quite important. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So if you're going down the road, if you accept the premise that this is a big contributor and making small gains on any of the stuff that is of interest to us and marketers who are owning websites attractions, I think for me, probably the first step is testing and trying to figure out where you are. Do you think that's a useful first step? Is that important as far as you're concerned, James? 

James Hobbs: I think it's important because with any sort of improvement, whether it's related to sustainability or not, I think quantifying where you are at the start and having a benchmark allows you to see whether you're going in the right direction or not. And improvement doesn't always go in one direction the whole time. There might be a two steps forward, one step back, depending on what you're doing. But I think without measuring where you are, and ideally regularly measuring your progress, it's hard to say what impact you've had and you might be going in the wrong direction and bumping up the wrong tree or whatever. So I think it's important. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, it's super important. And is it something that marketers themselves can do, or is this something that only a sustainability consultant can do, or is there somewhere in between? Is it the techy geeks that run the website that do this? Or is it a little bit of all of those things? 

James Hobbs: Well, that's a really good question. So I think this is still quite a new kind of industry. There are some tools out there that you can use to help you quantify the carbon impact of what you've got out there in the wild now. So the big one that most people talk about is websitecarbon.com, which is the website carbon calculator that was built by, I think a combination of an agency and some other organisations come up with an algorithm. It's obviously not going to be 100% accurate because every single website app, it's slightly different and so on. But as a consistent benchmark for where you are and a starting point for improvement, tools like that are really good. Ecograder is another one. Those offer non technical routes to using them. 

James Hobbs: So for the website carbon calculator, you just plunk a website address in hit go and it'll run off and tell you that's not very scalable. If you've got a 10,000 page website, or if you've got a large digital estate, there are also API level services that are provided that might make that easier to automate. But again, you then need someone who knows how to do that sort of thing, which raises the barrier to entry. I think what I would like to see is more and more vendors building carbon dashboards into their products and services so that the rest of us don't have to run around and build this stuff from scratch. Azure, for example, Microsoft's cloud platform, has a carbon dashboard that is scoped to your resources. That's really interesting and useful to see. 

James Hobbs: The stuff I mentioned about what we're doing with Umbraco and building a sustainability package, we're hoping to get that built into the core product. And again, the idea being that if you're a content editor or a marketer, you shouldn't have to know how to wire up APIs and do all this stuff, you should be able to see at a glance. Okay, well, that page I've just built actually is a little bit on the heavy side. Maybe I need to look at that. So I think the way to democratize it is to make it easier to do the right thing. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So these tools are giving you, they're giving you a grading? Yeah. So some of them are like a to f. I think it is for Website Carbon, Ecograder gives you a score out of 100. I think it is. Are there any advantages to one or the other? Or is it a good idea for people to use both of them and see the differences that the two different tools can give you? 

James Hobbs: I think it will come down to, well, for me anyway, I think using a tool in the first place is a step forward from what the vast majority of people are doing currently, which are not even thinking about it. So in many ways it doesnt really matter. I think it will depend on what people find easier to use. I think when people start to integrate this sort of sustainability measurements into their build pipelines, for example, release pipelines. That's where you will need to maybe think more carefully about the kind of data that you're interested in and what criteria you want to look at. Because, for example, at the moment, a lot of organisations who write software, hopefully their developers, will be writing some unit tests. And if the tests fail, then you don't deploy the website that should fail the build. 

James Hobbs: I think it would be good to move to a world where if your sustainability posture regresses and gets worse than similar things. There are other tools outside of those websites that we've been talking about, though. So there's an organisation called the Green Web Foundation, a nonprofit who do a lot of work in this space. And they've created a couple of tools. One's called CO2.js, which you can integrate directly into your website that can actually be a bit more accurate than the carbon stuff. And they've also built a tool called the Grid Intensity CLI. And without going into loads of horrible detail, what that is, essentially it knows when the electricity grid is at its most, what's the right word? At its most pollutant. When it's generating the most carbon. 

James Hobbs: So you can use that to figure out when to run background jobs or do lots of processing. You can do it when the grid is at its most renewable. So there's things like that as well. There's lots of options out there. You can go deep as you want. 

Paul Marden: Amazing. One thing that you just mentioned that I thought, oh, that's really interesting. I've never thought of that before, is the idea that you can drop a URL into Website Carbon or Ecograder and it will give you the score of that page. But actually, if you've got lots of pages on your website, you need to be testing across multiple pages. That should never occur to me before. 

James Hobbs: Yeah, because I think a lot of people plunk the homepage in and go, cool. It's a. I guess it's effort versus reward thing. No one's going, well, hopefully no one's going to spend time manually entering 10,000 website URL's into a tool like that. Not least because it would probably take the tool down. There are probably better ways of doing it than that. And also, homepages are typically quite different to the rest of a website. It serves a different purpose. So I think testing a representative portion of your digital services is probably the way to go. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I've been wondering recently whether buyers should be thinking about this as something that's part of the requirements of a new website. So if you're going out to tender and buying a new website, oftentimes you and I will both see requests for proposal that have accessibility requirements in them. But I genuinely don't remember a time that I've ever seen an RFP say, “You must achieve grade c or above on website carbon across the majority of the pages on the site.” And I think when buyers start to do that you'll begin to see agencies doing more of this sort of stuff. I think baking it into contracts will make a big difference. 

James Hobbs: Yeah, yeah and it's that kind of selective pressure isn't it? Clients start requiring this stuff, then agencies will have to step up. And it's unfortunate that might well be the catalyst but actually I don't care what the catalyst is as long as we’re going in the right direction. Its the main thing really, which is lessening our impact. Yeah absolutely. But yeah that whole supply chain thing is huge. That’s one way we can make a big impact is by mandating certain things. And there’s actually a certification, a green software engineering certification. It's offered for free that developers or technical architects can go through to educate them a bit on green software engineering techniques and things like that. 

James Hobbs: And that's the kind of thing that hopefully in the future companies who are putting RFPs out might say, “We want your engineering team to be aware of green computing techniques” and so on and be able to prove it. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised as well that it gets legislated for as well. So in the same way as you know, public sector bodies have got to meet certain accessibility requirements. I would not be surprised if we enter a world soon where there's a statutory obligation for these things to be done in a sustainable way as well. 

James Hobbs: Yeah. 

Paul Marden: So getting your act together now is a really good thing to do because there's going to be less work later on when you've got no choice but to do it. 

James Hobbs: Exactly. Get ahead of the game now. 

Paul Marden: So we've made the case, people have bought into it, they're going to go and do some testing and they realise that they've got a smelly, polluting, rich website. What can they do next? How can your average head of marketing, head of digital influence their website to get better? 

James Hobbs: Yeah. Okay, so this is where I think there's a really nice angle here. We did talk about this earlier on, but there is a fairly close link between the things that will make doing the things that will make your website, your digital services more sustainable and kind of KPI's and metrics that will probably make it more commercially successful as well, depending on what you're doing, with a bunch of caveats that I won't go into. So, for example, sustainable websites are typically lightweight, they're fast, they're optimised for getting the right things in front of the user as quickly as possible, which can include everything from content delivery networks to optimising images to a whole host of stuff. Doing all of those things will also typically positively impact your search engine optimisation, positively impact your conversion. 

James Hobbs: Because if you look at Google's guidance, Lighthouse guidance, the different things it looks at and so on, it's very clear that fast, relevant websites are what get prioritised and what Google's looking for. Fast, relevant websites that are served from locations close to the user are also likely to be sustainable. So there is a link there. And what that means is there's a built in business case for doing the sustainability stuff. 

James Hobbs: So if you've got a hard nosed suite of executives who couldn't care less about the planet, not that I'm saying that's what everyone's like, but, you know, the commercial world that we live in, it's a hell of a lot easier to sell this stuff in by saying, “You know what as well, like we can do an MVP or a pilot and we're confident that we might be able to improve conversion by 0.1%, 0.5%”, whatever it might be. It's also typically a good way to save money by being smarter about what you're computing and where and when and using some of those tools that I've talked about, you can save yourself potentially a bunch of money as a business, which again, is a commercial win. 

James Hobbs: So I think whilst the ethical side of it is really important, and, you know, none of us want to be boiling to death in 50 years time because we've ruined the planet. Making small changes in digital can have a massive impact because the amount of people that are using them. And I think it's easier to sell in because of the commercial. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm guessing there's stuff that you can do at key stages in the design and development of a site. So what are the things that people should be thinking about during the design of the site that could make it more sustainable? 

James Hobbs: So, okay, so that's a really good question. So this is a huge topic. So I can give you some examples of the kind of things you should be thinking about. So. And I guess we could divide them up into two sections. So when we're designing a website. There's how it looks and how the user experience work. There's also the technical design. As with anything, the further, the earlier you start thinking about this kind of stuff, the easier it is. Crowbarring in. It's a bit like accessibility, you know this, try and crowbar it in the last week of the project, it's not going to work. So from a design point of view, and some of this stuff is difficult to quantify its impact in detail, but things like not having massive 4k full bleed videos at the top of your webpage. 

James Hobbs: So being very careful and intelligent use of things like that, because they are large, they have to be transferred from wherever you're serving them from to the user. There's a big energy cost associated with that, not using loads and loads of external dependencies on your web pages. And that could be anything from fonts to JavaScript libraries to the vast myriad of tools that are being used. The more things you're throwing down the pipe to your end user, especially if your hosting infrastructure is not set up in a distributed way, the more energy intensive that thing is. You can even go as far as looking at the color choices that you're using. So certain darker themes are typically less energy intensive. Yeah, because of how OLED screens and modern screens work. Again, very hard to quantify. 

James Hobbs: And then we go down the rabbit hole of yeah, but where does the electricity that charges my phone come from? And you try and quantify all that stuff, it gets very head explodey. But there are things you can do in that sense. Some of them are easier to quantify than others. The weight of the page is a very easy thing to measure. If you keep that low, it will be easier to cache, it will load quicker for users, it will better for SEO, and faster pages tend to have better conversion. 

James Hobbs: And that works whether you're selling things from an e commerce point of view or you're trying to register interest, whatever it might be, from a technical angle, I think one of the most impactful things you can do, beyond making sure that your code is optimised and is running at the right times, at the right place, is simply to consider using a Content Delivery Network. And for your listeners who aren't familiar with a content delivery network, a CDN is something that all of us have interacted with at one point or another, probably without realising in the traditional way of serving or having a website, you've got some service somewhere, in a data centre somewhere. When someone types your website address in, it goes and fetches that information from the web server and back comes a web page in the simplest sense. 

James Hobbs: Now, if your website servers live in Amsterdam and your users on the west coast of America, that's a big old trip for that information to come back and forth. And it's got to go through lots of different hops, uses up lots of energy. A content delivery network is basically lots and lots of servers dotted all over the planet, in all of the major cities and things like that can keep a copy of your website. So that if someone from the west coast of America says, “Oh, I'm really interested in looking at this website,” types the address in, they get the copy from a server that might be 1020, 50 miles away from them, instead of several thousand across an ocean. 

James Hobbs: So it loads quicker for the user, which is great from a user experience, SEO, all that stuff I talked about, but it's also great from an energy point of view, because it's coming from somewhere nearby and it's not having to bounce around the planet. That's one thing that you could do that will make a massive and immediate impact commercially and from a sustainability point of view. 

Paul Marden: So you get those kind of performance improvement for the people all the way around the world accessing the site, but it's going to take load off of the server itself, so you might need less powerful servers running. One of the big issues that attraction websites have got is that it's such a cyclical market. The people that, you know,

James Hobbs: Spiky.

Paul Marden: Exactly when the Christmas meet Santa train is released at an attraction, or the traffic to the website is going to peak. If you can keep some of that traffic off of the web server by using that Content Delivery Network instead, you're going to be able to withstand those really peak times on the website without having to spend lots and lots of money on improving the resilience of the service. So it really is a win win win, isn't it? 

James Hobbs: I think so. And also it can help potentially avoid things like the dreaded queue where you log on to a website that's busy and it sticks you in a queue and you're 41,317th queue or whatever. Exactly like you say. If you can leverage this tech to take the load off your back end systems and I, you'll be delivering a better user experience. 

Paul Marden: One of the measures that I know a lot of the algorithms that are assessing CO2 emissions look at is the type of hosting that you use. So they talk about green hosting. What is green hosting? And is all green hosting the same? 

James Hobbs: No. So yeah, again, this is a big topic. So I guess hosting generally runs the spectrum all the way from kind of one boutique sort of providers who can set up VMS or private servers or whatever all the way through to the big goliaths of the Internet, the AWS and Azure and so on and everything in between. So green hosting is broadly hosting that is carbon neutral, powered by renewables, that sort of thing. So in theory shouldn't be pumping more pollutants into our atmosphere than it's saving. So if we look at the big cloud providers initially, so they've all made some commitments in terms of improving their sustainability posture. And this is really good because when one does it, the other one has to do it too. And obviously there's Google Cloud platform as well and they're doing similar sorts of things. 

James Hobbs: But it's almost this, I like the competitive angle of this because all it means is the sustainability posture of all of them will get better quicker. So it's good. So for example, I'll try and do this off the top of my head, you should check yourselves. But Azure and AWS and Google all have some pages that talk about their commitments and primarily they're focused on carbon neutrality and using renewable electricity. Aws have done a good job of that. So in certain AWS regions the year before last, they were completely 100% renewable powered, which is brilliant. 

Paul Marden: Really. 

James Hobbs: Yes. Not everywhere. Azure are going down a similar path and they've made the same commitment in terms of the year when they're going to hit renewable powered everything. They've also made commitments to water positivity. Enormous amounts of water are used during the operation of data centers and there are a lot of these data centres. So they've made commitments I think by 2035 or 2040 please double check to be net water positive, which is great. And the other thing that people don't think about, and this is I guess the supply chain thing I was talking about earlier, all those servers got rare metals in them. They've got all kinds of stuff in them thats been dug out of the ground, often in areas where there's a lot going on from a human point of view. 

James Hobbs: So Amazon, AWS, Google, et cetera, they're looking at that angle too. How can they keep servers in commission for longer so they don't need to be replaced as often? Where are they getting their materials from, et cetera, all that kind of stuff, because they're not just a computing company know they're invested in the hardware and getting this stuff out of the ground and manufacturing it and all the rest of it's a very big operation. So that's something we can't influence beyond pressuring them as consumers, but it is something that they're doing something about, which is great. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. And if we go back to that point I made earlier on, buyers are in control of this. If they are choosing to include that in their contracts to buy new web services, that it needs to be green by offsetting or green by using 100% renewable power, then that drives change, doesn't it? Procurement managers drive change through that kind of thing. 

James Hobbs: Yeah, absolutely. And just one final point on the greenhosting the Green Web foundation, who I mentioned earlier, the nonprofit who work in this space, they maintain a list of green web hosts. So hosts that are known to be green that you can use without having to worry too much. So it's worth looking at that as well. And it's a kind of impartial list. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. Do you think this is a story that attraction should be telling? So they're going to be, we're hoping that people are going to become energised by this and they're going to want to go on a digital sustainability journey. Do you think that is that something that they could be shouting about? 

James Hobbs: I think so, if done in the right way. Obviously, you've got to be careful of the sort of, we planted some trees and now everything's fine, because I don't think that's necessarily the case. But I think talking about it in the right way, which is we know we're not perfect, but we're doing something about it, and this is our plan, and being transparent about it, I think, is a good thing. I think it will also foster competition between different attractions, and everyone's a winner, really, because it will make everyone more sustainable. 

Paul Marden:  Yeah. 

James Hobbs: And yeah, I don't see why you shouldn't talk about it. I think its something thats important. And to your point earlier about consumers being able to influence some of this stuff, I really, truly hope that the generation of youngsters that are coming up now are going to be more hyper aware of this sort of thing, and they're going to care a lot more because it's likely to affect them more than it will us. So I would like to think that they will be selecting products, services, attractions, whatever it might be that can demonstrate that they're actually doing something to lessen the impact of their operations. 

James Hobbs: I've got two relatively young children, and I can already see them asking questions and being interested in this kind of stuff in a way that wouldn't have occurred to me when I was a kid, just didn't think about it. I cant change that. But what we can do is try and improve the world that were going to be leaving to the the youngs.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So, one last question for you. Is there anything. Is there anything happening in this space that you think is really cool and interesting to think about? 

James Hobbs: That's a good question. I mean, like, I hope this isn't a non answer. I think the thing. The thing that is exciting me most is that more and more people are talking about this stuff. More and more people are asking questions about this stuff and I've done a lot of talks and webinars and things on this topic and the thing that really makes me feel positive and excited about it is that nearly all of them afterwards, people come up to you, they message you and say, “I just didn't realise.” The fact that we're able to raise awareness is brilliant because we can start to build up a bit of momentum. I think the thing that. I think I mentioned it earlier, products and services, building this sort of stuff into their platforms in terms of helping users use their services more efficiently, I think that's the area that I'm most excited about, because otherwise it's people kind of hacking stuff together. I think it should be a first class part of any solution, really is like, carbon impact of what I'm doing. That's what I'm probably most keen to see more of. 

Paul Marden: James, thank you. One last thing. We always ask our guests for a book recommendation and you've already said you're an avid reader, so no pressure, but I'm quite excited to hear about this one. 

James Hobbs: Well, there's two and I thought I'd just make the decision when you asked me the question about which one to recommend. So I'm going to go with my legitimately favourite book, which is the Player of Games by Iain M Banks. It's part of the culture series of novels and I'm a bit upset because Elon Musk has been talking about it. I feel like he's tarnished it slightly. A magnificent series of novels. I remember finishing the 10th one and sadly, the author died a while ago and I genuinely felt slightly bereft that there weren't going to be any more of them. It's a brilliant book. It's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting. It's so creative and inventive. It makes you think differently about things. It's definitely not one for children. 

James Hobbs: You know, there's a lot of violence and all kinds of other things in there. But it's a fascinating book. All of his books are fascinating. My favourite author. So if you're going to, if you think about getting into his books and specifically the culture novels, that's a great point to jump in at. It's accessible and it's absolutely brilliant. I love it. 

Paul Marden: That's quite the recommendation. So, listeners, if you want to get into this culture series of books, then when we post the show notice on X, get over there and retweet the message and say, “I want James's book.” And the first person to do that will get that sent to them. James, this has been brilliant. There's a couple of takeaways I want people to go and think about, one from me, which is go and test your site and then jump into the Rubber Cheese website survey. 

Paul Marden: Go to rubbercheese.com/survey, tell us all about your attractions website and one of those questions will be about have you tested the CO2 emissions of your site and have you done anything about it? The more we understand what the sector is doing, then the more we can understand how we can all help and improve things. 

Paul Marden: James, you had one idea of a place where people could go and find out more about this sort of stuff. 

James Hobbs: Yeah, I mean, there's some organisations that I mentioned. So the Green Web Foundation is one that's got lots of interesting material on there, both tools that they've made, but also they fund research in this space, which is really important. It should be treated like a specific discipline. I suppose they're doing some great stuff there. There's the Green Software foundation, which confusingly similar name, doing some good work in this space. There's also lots of interesting groups on discord forums that are out there. I guess my main message would be we're all learning more about this field. No one has all the answers, but there are organisations out there that you can come and speak to that can help you understand where you are currently. 

James Hobbs: And I definitely encourage you guys to fill in the surveys, Paul said, because the more information that we've got, you know, the better we can understand where things are. 

Paul Marden: James, this has been a lot of fun and really interesting. Thank you ever so much. Thank you for joining the podcast. 

James Hobbs: Thanks for having me on. Thanks a lot. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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