Skip the Queue

In this episode of Skip the Queue, host Paul Marden speaks with Andy Hadden, founder of the Lost Shore Surf Resort in Scotland. Andy shares the remarkable journey from his sporting background and early property career to discovering wave technology in the Basque Country, which inspired him to bring inland surfing to Scotland. Despite starting with no money and no land, Andy raised over £100 million and built one of the world’s most advanced inland surf destinations. He explains how Lost Shore Surf Resort combines world-class waves with a strong community focus, sustainability initiatives, and partnerships with schools and universities to deliver real social and economic impact.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn.

Show references: 

Lost Shore Surf Resort website: https://www.lostshore.com/

Andy Hadded on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andy-hadden-94989a67/

Andy Hadden is the founder of Lost Shore Surf Resort, Scotland’s first inland surf destination and home to Europe’s largest wave pool. Opened in November 2024 near Edinburgh, Lost Shore is the country’s largest sports infrastructure project since the Commonwealth Games and now attracts a truly international audience of surfers, families, and brands. With a background in insolvency and investment surveying, Andy led the venture from concept to completion - securing major institutional backing and building a multidisciplinary team to deliver a world-class destination. Long before 'ESG' was a buzzword, he embedded environmental and social value into Lost Shore’s DNA, helping set new benchmarks for responsible development. As home to the Surf Lab with Edinburgh Napier University, Lost Shore also serves as a global hub for performance, product R&D, and surf therapy.

Live from the show floor, we’ll also be joined by:

Bakit Baydaliev, CEO/ Cofounder of DOF Robotics

• https://dofrobotics.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/bakitbaydaliev/

Hamza Saber, Expert Engineer at TÜV SÜD

• https://www.tuvsud.com/en
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamzasaber/

David Jungmann, Director of Business Development at Accesso

• https://www.accesso.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjungmann/

Kristof Van Hove, Tomorrowland

• https://www.tomorrowland.com/home/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristof-van-hove-2ba3b953/

Transcriptions: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about attractions and the amazing people who work with them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and with my co-host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're coming to you from IAAPA Expo Europe. This is the first of three episodes from the show floor that will come to you over the next three days. Firstly, I'm joined today by Andy Hadden, the founder of Lost Shores Surf Resort.

Paul Marden: Andy, tell us a little bit about your journey. You've opened this amazing attraction up there in Scotland where I was on holiday a couple of weeks ago. Tell us a little bit about that attraction. Why this and why in Scotland?

Andy Hadden: Well, I grew up locally and I came from more of a sporting family than so much of a business family. My father was the international rugby coach for a while and I played a lot of sport. 

Paul Marden: Oh, really? 

Andy Hadden: Yeah, yeah. So we always had this thing about there wasn't enough facilities here in Scotland because Scotland is a place which doesn't necessarily have all the resources and the access to funds and everything else like that. But one thing we noted with, you know, if you created facilities, whether they be good tennis facilities, good 4G football pitches, whatever it was. It allowed the environment around it to prosper, the communities around it to prosper. And, of course, I was a charter surveyor by trade, so I worked in insolvency and then in investment. So I sold two sites to that market. 

Andy Hadden: But I always surfed. I always surfed. So whilst I was down in Birmingham in England, when I actually got an email in 2012 talking about some, you know, some surfy thing that might have been happening in Bristol, I called the head of destination consulting up and I said, 'this sounds like nonsense, to be honest', because I surf and you can't really be talking about real surfing waves here. It's got to be something, you know, different. He said, 'No, no, there's these guys in the Basque country.' So I took a flight over there and that day changed everything for me. 

Paul Marden: So what was it that you saw? 

Andy Hadden: I went to see what was back then a secret test facility in the mountains of the Basque Country. It was very cloak and dagger. I had to follow the guide and give me the email address. I found this all very exciting. When I went and actually saw this facility, I realised that for the decade before that, there'd been all these amazing minds, engineers and surfers working on what they believed could be, you know, a big future of not just the inland surfing movement that's now burgeoning into a multi-billion dollar global movement, but it could really affect surfing. And if it was going to affect surfing as a sport, and it's now an Olympic sport because of these facilities, they wanted to make sure that it was a very accessible piece of kit. So surfing, it could affect surfing if ran by the right people in the right ways and really communicate that stoke of the sport to the masses.

Paul Marden: So what is it that you've built in Edinburgh then? Tell me a little bit about it.

Andy Hadden: So we've delivered a wave garden cove, which is a 52-module wave garden, which is about the size of three football pitches, and it can run hundreds of waves an hour, touch of a button and it can run in skiing parlance anything from green runs right through to sort of black powder runs. And the beauty of it is you can have people that are the better surfers out the back and just like at the beach at the front you've got their kids and learning how to surf on the white water. So we're finding it to be a really amazing experience— not just for surfers who are obviously flocking to us, but already here in Scotland, eight months in, tens of thousands of new surfers are all coming back and just going, 'Wow, we've got this thing on our doorstep.' This is blowing our minds, you know. 

Paul Marden: Wowzers, wowzers. Look, I'm guessing that the infrastructure and the technology that you need to be able to create this kind of inland wave centre is key to what you're doing. That you've got to access some funds, I guess, to be able to do this. This is not a cheap thing for you to be able to put together, surely.

Andy Hadden: Yeah, correct. I mean, you know, I have questioned my own sanity at times. But when I started 10 years ago, I had no money and no land. But I did have some property expertise and I wanted to do it in Edinburgh, a close-up place that I cared about. So we have excellent networks. For a few years, you know. Whilst we've ended up raising over  £100 million in structured finance from a standing start, it took me a couple of years just to raise £40,000. And then I used that to do some quite bizarre things like flying everyone that I cared about, you know, whether they were from the surf community or... Community stakeholders, politicians, and everyone over to the test facility to see themselves— what I could see to sort of—well, is it? Am I just getting carried away here? Or is there something in this? And then, on top of that, you know, we sponsored the world's first PhD in surf therapy with that first $5,000. So now we have a doctor in surf therapy who now takes me around the world to California and all these places. How does business actually really genuinely care about, you know, giving back? And I'm like, yeah, because we said we're going to do this once.

Andy Hadden: We got to do it right. And it took us a decade. But yeah, we raised the money and we're very happy to be open.

Paul Marden: So I mentioned a minute ago, I was holidaying in Scotland. I bookended Edinburgh— both sides of the holiday. And then I was in Sky for a few days as well. There's something about Edinburgh at the moment. There is a real energy. Coming up as a tourist, there was way too much for me to be able to do. It seems to be a real destination at the moment for people.

Andy Hadden: Yeah, well, I think, coming from the background I came from, if I knew I was going to deliver a surfing park in the edge of Edinburgh, I then wanted to do it in the least risky way possible. So to do that, I felt land ownership was key and three business plans was also very key. Edinburgh's in need of accommodation regardless, and Edinburgh's also in need of good places, a good F&B for friends and family just to go and hang out on the weekends. And then, of course, you have the surfing, and we've got a big wellness aspect too. We also sit next to Europe's largest indoor climbing arena. And we're obviously very well connected in the centre of Scotland to both Edinburgh and Scotland. So, so many things to do. So, yeah, I mean, the Scottish tourism landscape has always been good, but it's just getting better and better as we see this as a future-proof marketplace up here. You know, we're not building ships anymore.

Andy Hadden: Well, in fact, we got a contract the other week to build one, so maybe that's wrong. But the point is, we see it as a very future-proof place because the Americans are flagging, the Europeans are flagging, and they just want to feel like they're part of something very Scottish. And that's what we've tried to do in our own special way.

Paul Marden: And when you think of coming to Scotland, of course, you think about surfing, don't you? 

Andy Hadden: Yes, who knows. 

Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. Look, you had some recent high-profile support from Jason Connery, the son of the late James Bond actor Sean Connery. How did that come about?

Andy Hadden: Well, I think we've got, there's a real Scottish spirit of entrepreneurialism that goes back, you know, probably right the way through to the Enlightenment where, you know, I'm sure. I'm sure a lot of you know how many inventions came from Scotland. And this is, you know, televisions, telephones, penicillin. I mean, just the list goes on.

Andy Hadden: Of course, you know, that was a long, long time ago, but we still feel a lot of pride in that. But there seems to be a lot of people who've had success in our country, like someone like Sir Sean Connery. These guys are still very proud of that. So when they see something— very entrepreneurial— where we're using a lot of local businesses to create something bigger than the sum of its parts. And to do it truly— not just to be a profitable private business, which is what it is, but to give back 18 million into local economy every year, to work with schools in terms of getting into curriculums. We've got Surf Lab. We work with universities, charities, and so on. They really want to support this stuff. So we have over 50 shareholders, and they've each invested probably for slightly different reasons. They all have to know that their money is a good bet, but I think they all want to feel like they're part of creating a recipe. For a surf resort, which we believe there'll be hundreds of around the world in the next few years. And we can create that recipe here in Scotland. That's hopefully another example of Scottish innovation and entrepreneurialism.

Paul Marden: So you've got the test bed that happened in the Basque Country. You've got Scotland now. Are there surf resorts like this elsewhere in the world?

Andy Hadden: Yeah, there are eight other open in the world. There's actually, there's various technologies. So there's about 25 different surf parks open at the moment. But there's... doesn't under construction. Pharrell Williams has just opened one in Virginia Beach a few weeks ago there in America. And what the equity, I think, is looking at quite rightly, the big equity, you know, the type that go right, if this really is a, you know, kind of top golfing steroids in that property developers can look at them as.

Andy Hadden: You know, excellent ways to get through their more standardised property place, residential, office, industrial. Usually they have to do that in a kind of loss-leading way. But if you look at this as a leisure attraction, which councils and cities actually want because of the benefits, and it makes you money, and it increases the prices of your residential around it. I think developers are starting to realise there's a sweet spot there. So the equity, the big equity, I think, is about to drop in this market over the next couple of years. And it's just waiting for the data set to enable them to do that.

Paul Marden: Wow. I guess there's an environmental impact to the work that you do, trying to create any big... a big project like this is going to have some sort of environmental impact. You've put in place an environmental sustainability strategy before it was mainstream as it is now. Tell us some of the things that you've put in place to try to address that environmental impact of what you're doing.

Andy Hadden: Well, we're in a disused quarry. So it was a brownfield site. So already just by building on it and creating an immunity, we're also adding to the biodiversity of that site. And we're obviously there's no escaping the fact that we're a user of energy. There's just no escaping that. So the reality is we've got as much sustainable energy use as we can from air source heat pumps to solar. And we're looking at a solar project. So it becomes completely self-sustaining. But we also, the electricity we do access from the grid is through a green tariff. But you'll see a lot of the resorts around the world, this is going to become the sort of, the main play is to become sort of sustainable in that sense. Where we really fly is with the S and ESG. And like you say, the reason we were the world's first institutionally backed wave park, of course, we like to think it was purely down to our financials. But the reality is, they started saying, 'Wow, you're as authentic an ESG company as we've come across.'

Andy Hadden: And it's the same with our mission-based national bank. So, because we didn't really know what that meant, we just knew it was the right thing to do. So we fit squarely into that ESG category, which I know is a tick box for a lot of funds, let's face it. There's a lot of them that really want to do that. There's a lot of investors out there that want to do it. But let's understand our place in the system, which is we're really market leading in that area. And I think that's very attractive for a lot of funds out there. But the S in ESG is where we really fly with all the work we're doing socially around the site.

Paul Marden: So talk to me a little bit about that. How are you addressing that kind of the social responsibility piece?

Andy Hadden: Well, two examples would be we're not just looking at schools to come here to surf. That's an obvious one. They'll go to any attraction to surf if you could go to Laser Quest, go up to visit the castle, do whatever. But we reverse engineered it. We got schools coordinated to go around the headmasters and the schools and say, 'Well, Look, you're all teaching STEM, science, technology, engineering, maths, for 9 to 13-year-olds. And you're all looking for outdoor learning now, which is definitely a big part of the future in education in general. Can you allow us to create some modules here? So we've got six modules that actually fit into that STEM strategy. For instance, last week, there was a school in learning physics, but they were using surf wax on a surfboard friction.

Paul Marden: Amazing.

Andy Hadden: So these kids so it works for schools and headmasters which is very important and for parents and it obviously works for the kids and they love it and the reason we do that and we give that it's all at discounted low times and everything is because it's a numbers game they come back at the weekend and so on so that's example one and another would be we've created a surf lab with Napier University, a higher education. So we sponsored the world's first doctor. It got a PhD in surf therapy, but then the university was like, 'hold on a minute, you know, this is good marketing for us as well'.

Andy Hadden: This surf lab, which has the infrastructure to host great competitions, but also PhD students can come down and learn engineering. They can learn sustainable energy. So we've got more PhD students working there. And this higher university collaboration has not only led to Alder kids coming down but other universities in the area are now what can we do with lost shore now that's cool and fun so we're working with the other universities in town too so that's a couple of examples alongside the standard, employing local people and actually having the economics of putting money into the local economy.

Paul Marden: It's interesting, isn't it? Because... So for many people, ESG, and especially the social responsibility piece, feels a little bit worthy. It feels an altruistic move for the organisation to go and do those things. But you've hit on the quid pro quo what do you get back for doing all of this stuff well you're bringing in these kids you're enriching their learning, you're helping them to learn valuable skills but you're also giving them a taster of what life is like at the the resort and seeing the benefit of the return visits that flow from that is crazy.

Andy Hadden: You know, I like to think we've fought as hard as anyone to ingrain this stuff in your DNA because we're year one. And of course, we have our cash flow difficulties like everyone does. You know, you don't know how to... run the place for the first three months or that's what it feels like even though you've done all this preparation and so on and so forth but at no point does anyone turn around and go let's get rid of the schools program let's get rid of the university partnership and that's why i think it's very important to build it into your dna because it doesn't have to be this zero-sum game that people attribute you know or we're giving here so that means we have to take over here it's like there's cute ways to do everything you can do the right thing but also drive traffic for your business and it's very good right. It's good reputation, because the people that stay there, when they see that we're doing this stuff, they feel like they're part of it, and then they want to book again. So I believe it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, but it is a different way of creating a business— that's for sure.

Paul Marden: For sure. So there's going to be a listener out there, I'm sure, with a crazy idea like you had a few years ago. What advice would you give for somebody just starting out thinking of opening a business in the leisure and attraction sector?

Andy Hadden: I would just try your best to make it as simple as possible. I think it was Yves Chouinard, the founder of Patagonia, who said, 'One of the hardest things in life is to make it simple. It's so easy to make it complex.' And when you're dealing with a business plan, it's very exciting, right? Well, what if we get into this market? What if we do this? And splitting it all into those components. I think arm yourself with very good people around you. They don't even have to be part of the company. If you've been a good person in your life, I'm sure you've got friends who you can tap into. Everyone knows an architect. Everyone knows an accountant. Everyone knows a lawyer. You're a friend of a friend. 

Andy Hadden: And I think just overload yourself with as much information to get you to the point where you can be assertive with your own decisions. Because at the end of the day, it's going to come down to you making your own decisions. And if you've got a very clear path of what success and failure looks like, understanding that it ain't going to look like your business plan. As long as it's got the broad shapes of where you want to go, it can get you out of bed every day to try and make things happen. So, yeah, just go for it. Really, that's it.

Paul Marden: See where it takes you. So look, in the world of themed entertainment, we talk a lot about IP and storytelling and creating magical experiences. Are any of these concepts relevant to a destination like yours?

Andy Hadden: Yeah, well, you know, technically, from an IP perspective, you know, we're using the WaveGround Cove technology. You know, we've purchased that. So from a strictly business perspective, you know, we have access to their sort of IP in that sense and we deliver that. But I think for us, the IP is the destination. It's so unique, it's so big that it becomes defendable at scale. So it does sound like a bit of an all-in poker hand. But it would be more risky to go half in because these things are very hard to build. But when they are built, they're also very hard to compete with. So as long as your customer experience is good enough. You're going to maintain a kind of exclusivity in your locality for long into the future. So, yeah, there's obviously IP issues in terms of technologies. But for us, it was all about creating a destination with three business plans that's greater than the sum of its parts. And if we can do that in our location, then it's very hard to compete against, I would say.

Paul Marden: Andy, it sounds like such an exciting journey that you've been on. And one year in, that journey has still got a long way to play out, doesn't it? You must be on quite the rollercoaster. Well, surfing quite a wave at the moment, if I don't mix my metaphors so badly.

Andy Hadden: Yeah, we're just entering maybe the penultimate phase of the sort of 20-year plan. You know, we've gone through our early stages, our fundraising, our construction. We've gone through the very hard sort of like getting the team together and opening year one. And we're just starting to go, 'OK, we understand we've got data now'. We understand how to run this place now. So I think we now want to push through to stabilise the next two or three years. And then hopefully we've got a lot of irons in the fire globally as well. Hopefully we can go to the next phase, but we'll see what happens. Worst case scenario, I just surf a bit more and try and enjoy my lot.

Paul Marden: Well, Andy, it's been lovely talking to you. I've been really interested to hear what you've been up to. This was only a short snippet of an interview. I reckon there's some more stories for you to tell once you're into year two. So I'd love for you to come back and we'll do a full-on interview once you've got year two under your belt. How's that sound to you?

Andy Hadden: Absolutely, Paul, and thanks very much for the platform.

Paul Marden: Next up, let's hear from some of the exhibitors on the floor. Bakit.

Paul Marden: Introduce yourself for me, please, and tell me a little bit about where you're from.

Bakit Baydaliev: We have two companies located in Turkey, Istanbul, and Los Angeles, USA. We develop attractions, equipment, but not just equipment— also software, AI, and content, games, and movies. 

Paul Marden: Oh, wow. So you're here at IAPA. This is my very first morning of my very first IAAPA. So it's all very overwhelming for me. Tell me, what is it that you're launching at IAAPA today?

Bakit Baydaliev: Today we're launching our bestseller, Hurricane. It's a coaster simulator. In addition to that, we're also launching a special immersive tunnel, Mars Odyssey. We're sending people to Mars, we're sending people to space, and the story, of course, may change. After you install the attractions, you always can create different kinds of content for this attraction. It's completely immersive and what is very unique for this attraction is edutainment. Theme parks, science centres, space centres, and museums all benefit from it. It's not just to show and entertain, but also educate and provide a lot of useful information for people. 

Paul Marden: So what would you say is unique about this? 

Bakit Baydaliev: There are several factors. First of all, it's equipment. We have a very special software that amazingly synchronizes with the content and it doesn't create motion sickness at all. 

Paul Marden: Oh, really? 

Bakit Baydaliev: This is very important. Independently on the speeds, which is... We have very high speeds in our simulators. In addition to that, we have special effects, unusual effects, which feel like cold, heat, sounds.

Paul Marden: So it is truly 4D, isn't it?

Bakit Baydaliev: Completely. In addition to that, it's interactive content. It's not just the content which you can sit and... watch and entertain yourself and get a lot of useful information, but also you can interact. You can play games, you can shoot, you can interact. And of course, the most important thing which makes this attraction innovative is the educational aspect.

Paul Marden: I find that really interesting that you could see this ride at a theme park, but similarly you can see it as an educational exhibit at a science centre or space centre. I think that's very interesting.

Bakit Baydaliev: Very, very. Especially, you know, the standard experience for space centres, science centres, and especially museums, it's just walking around, touch some stuff. Some you may not even touch it. It's exponents which you can watch, you can read, it's very nice. But it's even better when you let people live it in real with a nice simulation atmosphere environment, like immersive tunnel.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Bekit, thank you so much for joining us on Skip the Queue, and I look forward to enjoying one of the rides.

Bakit Baydaliev: Please ride, and you will be amazed.

Hamza Saber: My name is Hamza. I work for TÜV SUD Germany. Our main job is to make sure attractions are safe, parks are safe. We do everything from design review to initial examination of rides, to yearly checks and making sure that we push the standards and the norm to the next level and cover everything that comes in new in the industry as well to make sure this industry stays safe and enjoyable for people. 

Paul Marden: It's so important though, isn't it? At an event like this, you don't have a sexy stand with lots of really cool rides to experience, but what you do is super important.

Hamza Saber: Yes, I guess it's not one of the big colourful booths, but it's at the heart of this industry. It's in the background. If you look at the program for the education, there is a lot of safety talks. There is a lot of small groups talking about safety, trying to harmonise norms as well. Because if you look at the world right now, we have the EN standards. We have the American standards and we're working right now to try to bring them closer together so it's as easy and safe and clear for all manufacturers and operators to understand what they need to do to make sure that their guests are safe at the end of the day.

Paul Marden: So Hamza, there's some really cool tech that you've got on the stand that's something new that you've brought to the stand today. So tell us a little bit about that.

Hamza Saber: So as you can see, we have one of the drones right here and the video behind you. So we're trying to include new technologies to make it easier, faster, and more reliable to do checks on big structures like this or those massive buildings that you usually see. You can get really, really close with the new technologies, the drones with the 4K cameras, you can get very, very precise. We're also working on AI to train it to start getting the first round of inspections done using AI. And just our expert to focus on the most important and critical aspects. So we're just going to make it faster, more reliable.

Paul Marden: So I guess if you've got the drone, that means you don't have to walk the entire ride and expect it by eye?

Hamza Saber: No, we still have to climb. So what we do is more preventive using the drones. So the drones, especially with the operators, they can start using them. And if they notice something that does not fit there, we can go and look at it. But the actual yearly inspections that are accepted by the governments, you still need to climb, you still need to check it yourself. So the technology is not right there yet, but hopefully we're going to get there. 

Paul Marden: We're a long way away from the robots coming and taking the safety engineer's job then. 

Hamza Saber: Yes, exactly. And they don't think they're going to come take our jobs anytime soon. Using technology hands-in-hands with our expertise, that's the future.
Paul Marden: It must be so exciting for you guys because you have to get involved in all of these projects. So you get to see the absolute tippy top trends as they're coming towards you.

Hamza Saber: Yeah, for sure. Like we're always three years before the public knowledge. So it's exciting to be behind the scene a little bit and knowing what's going on. We're seeing some really fun and creative ideas using AI to push the attractions industry to the next level. So I'm excited to see any new rides that will be published or announced at some point this week.

Paul Marden: Very cool. Look, Hamza, it's been lovely to meet you. Thanks for coming on Skip the Queue.

Hamza Saber: Yeah, thank you so much.

Kristof Van Hove: My name is Kristof. I live in Belgium. I'm working for the Tomorrowland group already now for three years, especially on the leisure part.

Paul Marden: Tell listeners a little bit about Tomorrowland because many of our listeners are attraction owners and operators. They may not be familiar with Tomorrowland.

Kristof Van Hove: Yeah, so Tomorrowland is already 20 years, I think, one of the number one festivals in the world. Actually, already for the last years, always the number one in the world. And what makes us special is that we are not just a festival, but we are a community. We create. special occasions for people and it starts from the moment that they buy their tickets till the festival we make a special feeling that people like and I think we create a world and each year we work very hard on new team that goes very deep so not only making a festival but we go very deep in our branding not only with our main stage but we also make a book about it we make gadgets about it so it's a completely.

Paul Marden:  Wow. Help listeners to understand what it is that you're doing new here at the moment. You're blending that festival experience, aren't you, into attractions.

Kristof Van Hove: Yeah, that's right. So because we are already 20 years on the market building IP, the more and more we really are able to create a complete experience, not only the IP as a brand, but also all the things around it. We have our own furniture. We have our own plates. We create actually all elements that are needed to build a leisure industry project. And that makes it magnificent. I think we are capable now, with everything that we do in-house, to set up and to facilitate water park and attraction park projects completely. 

Paul Marden: So, have you got any attractions that are open at the moment? 

Kristof Van Hove: Well, we have the Ride to Happiness, of course, the coaster that is built in Plopsaland three years ago. That is already now for five years the number one steel coaster in Europe and the fifth steel coaster in the world. So this is a project we are very proud of. Besides that, we have already a lot of immersive experiences. And we are constructing now a secret project that will be announced in the beginning of next year somewhere in Europe.

Paul Marden: Give us a little sneak peek what that might look like.

Kristof Van Hove: It's not that far from here. Okay, okay, excellent. So it's more an outdoor day project that we are constructing. That for sure will be something unique. Excellent.

Paul Marden: So look, you're already planning into 2026. Help listeners to understand what the future might look like. What trends are you seeing in the sector for next year?

Kristof Van Hove: Well, I think more and more the people expect that they get completely a deep dive into branding. I don't think that people still want to go to non-IP branded areas. They want to have the complete package from the moment that they enter. They want to be immersed. With everything around it, and they want a kind of a surrounding, and they want to have the feeling that they are a bit out of their normal life, and a deep dive in a new environment. And I think this is something that we try to accomplish. 

Paul Marden: Wow.

David Jungmann: David Jungman, I'm the Director of Business Development here at Accesso, based in Germany. I'm super excited to be here at IAPA in Barcelona. We're exhibiting our whole range of solutions from ticketing to point of sale to virtual queuing to mobile apps. And one of the features we're calling out today is our Accesso Pay 3.0 checkout flow, which streamlines donations, ticket insurance, relevant payment types by region on a single simple one-click checkout page.

Paul Marden: What impact does that have on customers when they're presented with that simple one-click checkout?

David Jungmann: Well, as you guys know, conversion rate is super important. The number of clicks in an e-commerce environment is super important. And because we're at IAAPA Europe, we've got guests here from all over Europe. Different regions require different payment types. And it's important to not overload a checkout page with like eight different types for, let's say, German guests, Dutch guests, Belgium guests, is to be able to only offer what's relevant and to keep it short and sweet. And then rolling in additional features like donations, ticket insurance and gift cards, stuff like that.

Paul Marden: Amazing. So get your crystal ball out and think about what the world in 2026 is going to be like.

David Jungmann: I think this year was a little bit soft in terms of performance for the parks, certainly in Europe, what we've seen. I think what that will mean is that maybe some will consider, you know, really big capex investments. But what that also means is they will get creative. So I envision a world where, instead of buying new protocols for 20 million, maybe some operators will start thinking about how can we make more out of what we've got with less, right? How can we be really creative? And I think there's a lot to uncover next year for us to see.

Paul Marden:  Sweating their assets maybe to be able to extend what they do without that big CapEx project.

David Jungmann:  Yes, how can we keep innovating? How can we keep our experience fresh? Without just buying something very expensive straight away. And I think that's what we see.

Paul Marden: What is going to be innovating for Xesso and the market that you serve?

David Jungmann: Well, for us, it's really about that streamlined, consistent guest experience, but also tying into things like immersive experiences, right, where you could maybe change the overlay of an attraction and feed in personalised information that you have for your visitors and collect it during you know the booking flow when they enter the venue and feeding that into the actual experience i think that's something i'm excited about.

Paul Marden: I think that there is a missed opportunity by so many attractions. There's so much data that we build and we collect the data, but oftentimes we don't bring it together into a central place and then figure out the ways in which we want to use it. There's so much more you can do with that rich data, isn't there?

David Jungmann: 100% exactly. And I don't just mean from a marketing perspective. I mean from an actual experience perspective. Let's say you ride through Dark Ride and all of a sudden your name pops up or your favorite character pops up and waves hello to you. That's the type of stuff you want to do, not just market the hell out of it.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Look, David, it's been so good to meet you. Thank you ever so much. And yeah, thank you for joining Skip the Queue. 

David Jungmann: Thanks, Paul. Have a great day at the show. 

Paul Marden: Isn't it great? I mean, we have got such an amazing job, haven't we? To be able to come to a place like this and be able to call this work.

David Jungmann: Absolute privilege. Yes, absolutely.

Paul Marden: Now, before we wrap up, Andy and I wanted to have a little chat about what we've seen today and what we've enjoyed. Why don't we sit down? You have clearly returned to your tribe. Is there a person in this place that doesn't actually know you?

Andy Povey: There's loads. I've been doing the same thing for 30 years. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, this ain't your first radio, is it? 

Andy Povey: I'm big and I'm loud, so I'd stand out in a crowd. I mean, there are all fantastic things that I should put on my CV. But this is really where I feel at home. This industry continues to blow me away. We're here, we're talking to competitors, we're talking to potential customers, we're talking to previous customers, we're talking to people that we've worked with, and it's just all so friendly and so personally connected. I love it.

Paul Marden: It has been awesome. I've really enjoyed it. Although I'm beginning to get into the Barry White territory of my voice because it's quite loud on the show floor, isn't it? 

Andy Povey: It is. It's actually quieter than previous shows, so I don't know why, and I don't know whether... Maybe I'm just getting old and my hearing's not working quite so well, but... You used to walk out of the show and you could almost feel your ears relax as they just stopped hearing and being assaulted, I suppose, by machines pinging and blowing.

Paul Marden: It really is an assault on the senses, but in the very best way possible. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely, absolutely. I feel like a child. You're walking around the show, you're going, 'Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow, Wow.' 

Paul Marden: So what has been your highlight? 

Andy Povey: Do you know, I don't think I could give you one. It really is all of the conversations, the connections, the people you didn't know that you hadn't spoken to for two years.

Paul Marden: So for me, my highlight, there was a ride that I went on, Doff Robotics.

Andy Povey: I've seen that, man.

Paul Marden: So it was amazing. I thought I was going to be feeling really, really sick and that I wouldn't enjoy it, but it was amazing. So I had Emily with the camera in front of me. And within 10 seconds, I forgot that I was being recorded and that she was there. I was completely immersed in it. And I came off it afterwards feeling no motion sickness at all and just having had a real good giggle all the way through. I was grinning like, you know, the Cheshire Cat. 

Andy Povey: A grinning thing. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So, tomorrow, what are you looking forward to?

Andy Povey:  It's more of the same. It really is. There's going to be some sore heads after tonight's party at Tribodabo. We're all hoping the rain holds off long enough for it to be a great experience. But more of the same.

Paul Marden: Well, let's meet back again tomorrow, shall we? 

Andy Povey: Completely. 

Paul Marden: Let's make a date.

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to today's episode from IAAPA Expo Europe. As always, if you've loved today's episode, like it and comment in your podcast app. If you didn't like it, let us know at [email protected]. Show notes and links can also be found on our website, skipthequeue.fm. Thanks to our amazing team, Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle from Plaster Creative Communications, Steve Folland from Folland Co., and our amazing podcast producer, Wenalyn Dionaldo. Come back again tomorrow for more show news.

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We’ve well and truly kicked off season 7 in style as we welcome our first guest onto the show - IAAPA Board Chairman, Massimiliano Freddi. In this episode, Paul sits down with Massimiliano Freddi, the first Italian to ever hold the role of IAAPA Chairman in the association’s 107-year history. From his early dream of running a theme park to founding Wonderwood and shaping Italy’s unique attractions landscape, Massi shares how passion, storytelling, and a people-first mindset continue to drive his vision for the industry. 

Skip The Queue is back for Season 7 and we’re announcing some big changes! Get ready for new hosts, a fresh new look, weekly content and find out where you can catch us live at events to be part of the action.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn, or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 24th September 2025. The winner will be contacted via LinkedIn or Bluesky.

Show references: 

https://iaapa.org/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/freddi/

Massimiliano Freddi  a leading figure in the amusement and entertainment industry, has been appointed president of the steering committee of IAAPA (International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions, the leading international association for attractions and theme parks) for 2025. This is the first time since the foundation of the World Association of Attractions (1918) that this position has been entrusted to an Italian.

The appointment underscores his extensive experience and significant contribution to the global industry. Freddi brings a wealth of experience gained at some of the industry's most prominent companies. His career began in marketing and press office for the Italian market at Disneyland Paris. He subsequently joined Leolandia.

A visionary entrepreneur, in 2018, Massimiliano Freddi founded Wonderwood, an adventure and amusement park for all ages, of which he is currently CEO, in his hometown of Trarego Viggiona, in the Verbano-Cusio-Ossola region on Lake Maggiore. This growing business has redeveloped several local facilities and provided employment to several young residents of the small towns in the area. His passion for the sector also extends to academia. Since 2016, he has been a member of the coaching staff of Seth Godin's Altmba and is a professor of marketing and experience design at IULM University in Milan. At the same university, where Italy's first course in theme park and attraction management was introduced, he teaches subjects such as consumer experience, marketing, and soft skills as an adjunct professor. Freddi was also one of the original founders of Parksmania, the first newspaper dedicated to amusement parks.

Freddi will continue to bring his innovative vision and deep industry knowledge to the global association, helping shape the future of attractions internationally. Regarding Italy, he commented that he sees great potential and wants to help realise it.

Transcriptions: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best visitor attractions and the people that work in them. I'm Paul Marden, along with my co-hosts Andy Povey and Sinead Kimberley, I spend my days working with ambitious attractions like theme parks, museums, galleries, and science centres to help them to attract more guests. 

Paul Marden: Today on Skip the Queue, I'm joined by someone who has been shaping the attractions industry in truly remarkable ways. Massimiliano Freddi is the first Italian ever to hold the role of chairman in IAAPA's 107-year history. A milestone that not only celebrates his career, but also shines a light on Italy's growing influence in the global attractions landscape. Massimiliano has worn many hats across his journey, from fulfilling his childhood dream of becoming a Theme Park Managing Director at just 28, where he grew guest numbers from 300,000 to over 800,000, to founding his own destinations like Wonderwood on Lake Maggiore and Wonderwood Spina Verde, overlooking Lake Como. Along the way, he's pioneered inclusive and eco-conscious practices, championing the power of storytelling and shown how attractions can thrive by creating meaningful experiences for every guest.

Paul Marden: Beyond his leadership roles, Massimiliano is also a Professor of Marketing and Experience Design at IULM University in Milan, where he's passionate about nurturing the next generation of talent in our sector. Often described as both a dreamer and a doer, he brings together vision and practicality in a way that continues to inspire operators around the world.

Paul Marden: Massimilliano, welcome to the show. It really is a pleasure to have you with us. We always start Skip the Queue and the kickoff of season seven, no less, is going to be no different. We always start with an icebreaker question. And I'm thinking back to, we're just back off of our summer holidays, aren't we? For your perfect holiday, would it start with planes, trains or driving.

Massimiliano Freddi: Oh, that's a beautiful question. By the way, congratulations because you've pronounced Massimiliano in a very correct way. So that's unusual. I have a complicated name. I know, I know.

Massimiliano Freddi: Hey, I would say train. Train is really, really part of the way that I love to travel with. And unfortunately, too often it happens by car, which I like a little bit less. I get dizzy, you know, and stuff. Train is my ultimate, ultimate way to travel.

Paul Marden: I did a sleeper train to Scotland a couple of years ago, and it was amazing. I absolutely loved it. And what's brilliant is there's more of those sleeper trains hitting Europe, aren't there now? So there really is very few excuses for us not to be holidaying with the start with some elegant sleeper train. My only disappointment was that there was no murder on the train, so I couldn't have an Agatha Christie style novel themed around my train  journey, but uh, you know.

Massimiliano Freddi: I mean, I mean, it could have been the Hogwarts Express, but apparently, it doesn't run every day, so.

Paul Marden: That would be pretty cool as well. I've just come back from Edinburgh, actually, and we saw, you know, the viaduct where the train goes to Hogwarts, and completely unplanned, there was a steam train that went over the bridge whilst we were there. It was amazing.

Massimiliano Freddi: Happy go lucky.

Paul Marden: Yeah. So enough of my holidays. Let's kick off talking about you and IAAPA. What can international markets learn from attractions in Italy? Tell us a little bit about the attractions landscape over there in Italy at the moment.

Massimiliano Freddi: Yes. So let's say that the attraction landscape is very similar, somehow, to how the restaurants or the retail landscape has always been, which means a lot of mom and pop stores. And I think that what people who travel to Italy love is to find something that is one of a kind that you can find only in Italy. I have a deep respect for Starbucks, but I'm always... questioning myself, you know, when somebody comes to Italy, do they really want to find Starbucks? Is this a real thing? So when it comes to parks and attractions, Italy has not faced a big concentration in players like it has happened in other countries. Of course, some big players are there. Parques Reunidos owns Mirabilandia, which is the second most important Italian park. And the most important Italian park is Gardaland, owned by Merlin Entertainment. Then we have a few other groups. Owning and operating some of the facilities, but let's say that, out of 250 parks between—or, you said, attractions— that's very correct now, if we talk about attractions, now the number is endless, because where is the border?

Paul Marden: What is an attraction? Yeah, that's a big philosophical question.

Massimiliano Freddi: Okay, okay, so let's say that, once upon a time, we used to count parks. So when we talk about parks, we have roughly 250 parks in Italy, and most of them are tiny, tiny, tiny, and they are independently owned. That's my case. I own and operate two parks right now, and I'm about to open, a third location that will be an indoor one this November. And so, yes, I think that what what others can learn from Italy i think is to keep this respect for your roots and to make sure that you don't make every attraction look like another one, but you kind of keep it, you know, different.

Massimiliano Freddi: And so it's a matter of the mix of how people can have fun and get entertained. But it's really also about retail and about food and about shows and festivals and you name it, you know. So there are these places that we see on Instagram and immediately we say, oh, that's, I mean, when I see a picture of the Empire State Building or of the Tower Bridge. I know immediately where it belongs to. And so I think that, with attractions, we need to think in the future always about this. Guests coming to visit us, they want to have the ultimate experience and they want to have something that's different from anything they've done before. So this is the responsibility we have.

Paul Marden: And a big one it is. Let's talk a little bit about the experience economy. And especially when we think about, you know, beyond the parks, there's this... massive ecosystem around the outside of different ways that people can enjoy themselves. What does that experience economy mean to you, especially in Italy?

Massimiliano Freddi: The experience economy, first of all, it truly matters to me, the book. Because in 1999, it was once upon a time, it was really difficult to find literature and scientific literature on the leisure industry. And so I think that at that time, we thought that everybody could take inspiration from the attractions industry. And it has happened because right now. Yes, definitely. You know, food is experience and travel is experience and lodging is experience. You name it, you name it. You know, even there is also a funeral house in Italy, which has become very famous because they are really based on the experience they will give, you know, not to the people who passed away, unfortunately, you know, but the people remain. So I think that it's very hard now to find an industry that doesn't think, that we are in the experience economy and that everything should be experienced and experiential. And so I think that when I go back to my example, I think that we as attractions, we need to be even more wise in how we choose to present ourselves and what we cater to our guests.

Massimiliano Freddi: Because of course, we need to raise the bar. So right now, we know that some access... And some services to our attractions have become better with technology. But still, we are, you know, long lines sometimes. And we feel we are paying too much for what we are getting back.

Massimiliano Freddi: I would say that in the end, experience economy starts with people and ends with people. And so we need to be people-centric. And only like this, we can be truly experiential. I don't think that an experience is about technology.  It's always, always about people.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. I wonder as well, I'm always struck by this industry, how close we are, how we collaborate with one another. And really, the competition aren't the other parks or attractions. The competition is getting people out and doing something. There are so many things at home that could keep you at home, getting you out and about and visiting places and enjoying those experiences. I wonder whether collaboration is the answer to this.

Massimiliano Freddi: I think you nailed it because it's crucial. Everybody who has not been working for this industry, when they enter the industry, because they might change jobs, everybody is so surprised that we collaborate so heavily. And I think that a key to this success has always been this big collaboration. I have almost always in my career been part of smaller facilities. And to me, IAAPA and the associations were, it's been crucial, you know, because you are alone. Very, very often your facility is in the middle of nowhere. No matter if you're part of a big group, because even big groups have facilities in the middle of nowhere, but for family-owned and operated attractions, that's almost the golden rule.

Massimiliano Freddi: And so there are so many days in your life, in your career, in your profession, where you would benefit strongly from talking to somebody else who's been through something like you before and who's found a different solution and who can open up your eyes. So I think that's the beauty of our industries is getting together. Again, if we don't get together, how can we make people get together?

Paul Marden: Yeah, I'm very excited about getting together because I've got my first IAAPA in Barcelona coming up. And I'm very excited about what this is going to be like.

Massimiliano Freddi: Oh, you will be blown away.

Paul Marden:  I can't wait. I absolutely can't wait. Now, look. Someone has once described you as a dreamer and a doer. One of your dreams was to be managing director of a theme park. Where did that inspiration come from?

Massimiliano Freddi: So it comes from a terrible childhood. And so it comes from the fact that, yeah, the world around me when I was a kid was not a positive world. And my family had a lot of troubles. And I'm an orphan from the side of my mother. I mean, I went through several things. And so I think that the attractions industry, to me, it really meant this place that's always happy and where grownups can really take great care of kids and kids at heart.

Massimiliano Freddi: So I think that my passion came out of that. Now, dreaming and doing, of course, we all have as a big myth and as a reference, Walt Disney himself, and he was the guy who first said, 'Dreamers and doers' talking about, what enterprises, so his imagineers. I think that whenever I see something, I want to say something. Everybody who knows me knows pretty well. But it means that I love to see the world in a constant improvement. So, if I check in at a hotel and I see that there is something in there that, you know, it even doesn't impact me. But with a small step, they could make it better and fix it. I just share it and I share it, you know, wherever I am. And so I think that maybe this was a bit of my secret weapon because I got involved in several things. I think because I'm curious and maybe because I'm generous in sharing.

Massimiliano Freddi: And I don't know if there is a secret there. There is just that in the moment in which you accept yourself the way you are and you acknowledge that you have some talents, and you don't have some others, and some skills you can get better, some others no way—okay. I could never never be an attorney, I could never do a lot of jobs on the planet, but now I know, at the age of 44, that I know what I'm good at, and even if I'm good at that, I want to constantly improve. So I think that maybe the support that I could bring to the table to the companies I've worked for, to the associations, to my own business, and so on, it's always been this obsession with constant improvement every day.

Paul Marden: I think it takes a certain vulnerability, doesn't it? To spot something that you think can be improved and to offer a suggestion. And I think it's so valuable. I was at an attraction recently and I got the email at the end of the day, saying, 'How was it?' Please leave us a review. I went to click it and it didn't work. I knew the head of marketing, so I just pinged him off a quick email that just said, 'Oh, I had such a brilliant time but I couldn't leave you a review. I wanted to give you a brilliant review, but I couldn't do it because it didn't work. And that led them to go and look at all of their outbound emails, and none of them were working properly. But you know, you could walk by and just leave that alone. But I can't do it. However, it is sometimes does make you feel really awkward, couldn't you? But when I get great services in a restaurant, when somebody looks after me while at an attraction, I want to tell them how good it was, and if I can see something they can do better, I want to tell them what they could do.

Massimiliano Freddi:  Totally, totally. And I'm so much on the same page. I was about to say that it's equally important to call people out when they're doing well.

Paul Marden: Yeah.

Massimiliano Freddi: So to make sure that they are aware. And sometimes, you know, to say there was one day where I travelled during a bank holiday, and I arrived at the entire bank holiday, and I arrived to the airport, and I decided I wanted to thank each and every employee that I would meet because they were there that day. I mean. We got used that Sundays are no longer Sundays, but the bank holidays, these are the moments in which you spend time with your family and with your kids and so on. And if you're there and you're working, I mean, it's good that somebody sees you and tells you, 'Hey, thank you because you're working even today, you know?' And you can tell how everybody gets surprised. So I think that we learn so much more by positive reinforcement.

Massimiliano Freddi: And so how important it is also to tell attractions, facilities, managers, CEOs. I mean, CEOs, they are so used to just getting... I can't use swear words. Yes, you can. Under those kind of storms, you know, all the time, all the time. And so when a CEO does something good, come on, let's tell her.

Paul Marden: Yeah, it's a really lonely job. And all you get is... is the spankings and the tellings off. Isn't it? So when they get it right, they definitely need a pat on the back because they're not going to get it. They're not going to get it. So I can't believe this. At the age of 28, you made your dream come true and you were managing director of a theme park in Italy for Minitalia, which became Leolandia, in this role you took guest numbers from 300, 000 guests a year to over 800,000.

Paul Marden: Tell us that story. How do you so dramatically increase footfall at the attraction?

Massimiliano Freddi: I don't think it was me. I think it was a great teamwork because it's a great teamwork, you know, and you can grow this much. If your operation is working very well, if your safety is right on spot, if the park is clean, you know, and so on. I can tell you one thing that when we were at the basic level, so at the very beginning, of course, we couldn't afford to buy big attractions or too heavily themed. And we needed really, I remember that the first Halloween, we had a 10K budget, 10,000 euro budget for a whole month of Halloween. Okay, so we would go to the do-it-yourself stores and buy brooms and build everything. I mean, that was a magical moment because it created the capability of the team to envision that, if you want, you can do with the things you have. And of course, with a huge budget, you can do fantastic things.

Massimiliano Freddi: But sometimes, you know, this helps. So in that moment... TripAdvisor was a true success still. We're talking about 20 years ago. So TripAdvisor was kind of the reference. That's even before Google Maps and all that. So I remember that I did an analysis and I understood that every restaurant or park who had over 4. 5 out of 5 was growing. And having 4 out of 5 was not enough. Now we call it NPS, we call it a different way. But there, in this practical way, so I remember this moment with my team saying, 'Hey, we need to be obsessed with getting five stars.' And this is the point. So what can we do? First of all, we can have the cleanest toilets on earth. Let's make sure that the smell is good, they are super clean, and so on. Because people, that's a level of service. Of course, this is not a driver of visit, but this is a driver of satisfaction. And in the same way, let's start to work with better suppliers when it comes to food and beverage.

Massimiliano Freddi: Let's start to make things more comfortable. So I think that this was the first thing. The second aspect, again, it's very much linked to IAAPA because I think that attending the show every year and knowing the people. At that time, Jakob Wahl, he used to be one of the employees of IAAPA in Brussels. I don't think he was a manager at the time yet. He was in charge of keeping relationships with members. So I reached out to him. We are the same age. I reached out to him and I said, 'Hey, I would love to visit a few facilities in other countries because I need to get fresh ideas.' It was a very delicate moment. We came out of two bad seasons due to bad weather. Because then you know, you don't go from here to here as a straight line, but always as this roller coaster. And in a moment you think, 'Oh, I made it.' There's a dip.

Paul Marden: Yeah.

Massimiliano Freddi: You can never sleep. And so he put me in contact with several facilities. I visited some in Belgium, in the Netherlands, and in the UK. And in the UK, I visited this, at that time, small park still called Paulton's Park. You might know that. I remember it was a weekday with bad weather and the parking lot was packed. And I was like, 'How comes?' Kids are not at school today. What is the point? I enter the park. The park is, yeah, not so crowded. So I really suspect that they are, you know, keeping the people all shut down together in a place. I don't know. I don't know what the point was. And then I enter the Peppa Pig's World.

Massimiliano Freddi: And it blows my mind. And again, what blows my mind is that it didn't have any huge attraction. But it had that feeling. And people were just so happy. It was magic. Little kids there with their families, a lot of strollers all over the place, traffic jams due to strollers. And so I came back and I said, 'Hey, we need to get Peppa Pig.' And I remember that the team was like, 'It can't happen.' It has happened. In the end, we were the second park in the world after Paulton's Park to get Peppa. And that reshaped the entire strategy of the park we had at that time, turning it into what we wanted to achieve, is to become the best park for the kids under the age of 10 in Southern Europe. And best means really the best, rated from the bottom of the heart. And so this is what has happened. So I think that, you know, before Leolandia, I had worked for Disneyland Paris and I'm a big Disney fan. So that was kind of the school I had attended and I just had to apply. The theory that I've learned, I had to apply it, and I had a fantastic team and the resources to do that.

Paul Marden: Amazing. Now, fast forward to 2018, and you've taken the step from MD to founder and founded Wonderwood on Lake Maggiore. Now, let's test my Italian. You've also founded Wonderwood Spina Verde. 

Massimiliano Freddi: I'm speechless. I can't correct anything.

Paul Marden: Wonderful. Overlooking Lake Como, both of which, by the way, were... So I've been to Maggiore and Lake Como for my honeymoon. So a beautiful, beautiful place. And you've put two parks there. How has that been?

Massimiliano Freddi:  It has been crazy. So I remember that the first year, and I mean, we created the company at the end of 2018. We've opened our gates in the summer of 2019. Now, if we all remember what has happened at the beginning of 2020.

Paul Marden: Yeah.

Massimiliano Freddi: Okay, so perfect timing. Now, I can tell you that the first season, every day, I would literally cry, but for real.

Massimilliano Freddi: I was exhausted. My husband was exhausted. We thought that this was a nightmare, the worst possible nightmare. And if somebody had knocked on my door and asked me, 'Hey, could I just take it over?' I don't give you a penny. I will just take home the loans. I would have said yes. And that's because, of course, every project is over budget. Of course. No matter. No matter.

Massimiliano Freddi: And when it's a family company and you don't have the money because you've contracted several loans and so on, it makes it super, super difficult. So in that moment, my call for action was because the possibility of Lake Maggiore was in the town where I spent every summer as a kid. So it was a love story. And I wanted to give back to the community. I wanted to do something in the nature that would inspire kids to hike more. To become more active and just not only to stay in front of a screen, but to do something different. So that came out of this kind of dream. And so it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare at the very beginning. Then COVID hit and we were very lucky, of course, because we didn't lose anyone from our families and friends. So I am very thankful for that. And at the same time, it gave us the possibility to stop for a second, rewind, and refine our strategy.

Massimiliano Freddi: Because we had just closed the park in, I mean, the week before Christmas, and we were supposed to reopen in less than three months, but we were exhausted. So I'm telling this story because usually it's so nice to tell that the triumphs, you know, and say, 'Hey, it's been fantastic.' Yeah, we nailed it. We had, no, we made 200 mistakes.

Massimiliano Freddi: And we paid for all the mistakes. So I think that in that moment, yeah, we were struggling at the beginning. We were reflecting in the middle part. And then three years ago, two to three years ago, I woke up one morning and I understood that I really loved what I was doing. And it had changed. It had changed. And seeing so many families happy and so many people visiting and seeing... How many young professionals or students started to work with us and then you see them leaping? I think that this is the most beautiful thing on earth. It's very empowering. So right now I'm in this situation where I am so grateful for this entire six years, even if they started in a way that was very, very heavy. But, you know, the Latins used to say 'per aspera ad astra.' It means... 'towards the stars through the asperities.' And so we need to go through that thing, that tunnel.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Now, as if founding your own parks wasn't enough, you also mix your time as a professor at the university. I can hear from what you were talking about, about bringing the young professionals into the park, that there's an element to you of apprenticeship almost, of teaching that next cohort of people that are going to come and take over the world.

Paul Marden: How exciting is that for you to be able to mix that in at the university?

Massimiliano Freddi: It's fantastic. It's fantastic. And again, it came out of passion. It came out. I didn't do a PhD after my university. My career wasn't supposed to be the academic one. And I didn't trust I would be able to do that. And then I got called for a lecture, then two lectures, and three lectures. And then, right now, I have several courses at university.

Massimiliano Freddi: There's a point. The point is that, if we meet between our age of 14, 14, 15, until our 25, and if we narrow it down, it's between maybe 16 and 22, this is the moment in which it's more important to meet some mentors. And most of us don't meet mentors. They meet nice people around them, giving them very nice advice based on their experience and not seeing the talents they have in front of them. And in several cases, we are scared. We think that we are not enough. And so I really think that it's such a huge privilege for me to be able to be at university and to meet so many hundreds of students every year and to try to make my small impact so that, first of all, they can believe in themselves and they can believe that the world can be a better place, even if right now it's kind of a tough moment. But from tough moments, again, we can learn things.

Massimiliano Freddi: Even at IAAPA, one of the things that I really am passionate more about is what are the spaces we can create for young professionals and students. So I want to give two very short examples. The IAAPA Foundation has evolved a lot over the last few years. We were able to collect so many more donations.

Massimiliano Freddi: And now, this year, it will be a record-breaking year when it comes to scholarships to which students can apply in universities around the globe. So I think that's... But to me and to all of us in the board of the IAAPA Foundation, that's like the starting point. We are here celebrating because it's a big achievement and then we look each other in the eyes and say, 'Okay, now what's next?' Now, how can we make sure that the impact is even bigger? And if we go on the side of IAAPA, I think we are very... We pay a lot of attention to make sure that the membership fees are very low for the people entering. The word of leisure. Just a few weeks ago, it got launched on the IAAPA job board that whoever has a company and wants to post an internship, that's free to post. So that, you know, there could be thousands of internships available for students.

Massimiliano Freddi: Of course, as a big association, we are used to talk to members and maybe older members because we visit facilities and we visit manufacturers and we need to deal with safety and stuff. But students and young professionals are not on the back of my head. They are like near and dear to my heart. And so my real question is: when this year ends in a couple of months, how can I dedicate myself even more to contribute to young people? Because I think that they are making a change. They will make a change. And we are learning so much from them because the work we are leaving you and me right now. I have bad news. It's no longer our world. We don't have the code to decode that. So we don't have the keys. We can just support people that are better than us and make sure that they can live, that they can teach, that they can learn.  That's a bit of what I see.

Paul Marden: I completely agree with you. I think it's interesting because you talk about what you're giving, but you're also getting something back. This is not entirely altruistic, is it? The support that you're giving for these young people and early career professionals, you're getting something back, enriching yourself and learning new things from them.

Massimiliano Freddi: Always, always. And I think that, you know, I don't always teach. Market leisure marketing and stuff— you know, I teach marketing at a at a Master's Degree in Management of Beauty and Wellness, total different industry, you know, food and wine. As I was telling, but what I bring home every time is how much young people need to feel seen and, and this is truly important because if we create for them not a safe zone, because of course we want them to get messy. We want them to take risks, but they need to feel safe as humans and they need to feel safe as seen. And so I appreciate a lot this because then the energy that I... And you know, when we talk about IAAPA, we have so many ambassadors that have been contributing to the IAAPA trade shows and events all over the globe. We have young people joining the committees.

Massimiliano Freddi: Right now, there are a few, more than a few young professional task forces around the globe that are really helping us, old people, to understand what they need. So I think that we are at the very beginning. And if I could say a dream out loud, I wish that IAAPA in five or ten years, maybe in five years, can multiply the number of young engaged people in the association by 100. 10 is not enough. 20 is by 100. We need to make an impact. And I think we want to make an impact. So hopefully.

Paul Marden: Well, there's an ambition for you. And I think every... worthwhile project— every it always starts with that kind of ambitious goal— at the very beginning of it you need to be driven by that  hundred times impact not the 10 times impact we we always like to finish our interviews with a book recommendation, fiction, non-fiction, industry-related or not, give us a view uh into your reading habits, okay, so can I mention more than one book? You bankrupt me because I always offer the book recommendation as a prize for people, but you can have more than one.

Massimiliano Freddi: Okay. Okay. Thank you because I'm a big reader. So the first author that I would love to mention is J. K. Rowling because Harry Potter is not just a story of a kid or of magic, but it's a story of a woman who was a bit desperate. And then... She followed what she was feeling. She allowed her emotions to flow. And she has created a masterpiece. And she has impacted us all, you know, no matter business-related, non-business-related, and so on. So I think that, to read again, the first Harry Potter book, it's very important because it brings us back to some reason why, you know, and to some things. The second book that I would love to mention is a book written by Seth Godin. I have had the privilege to work for Seth for several years.

Paul Marden: Really?

Massimiliano Freddi: And yeah, he's an amazing guy. He's an amazing guy. And come on, he's such a generous person and he's amazing.

Massimiliano Freddi: I don't have any other words that's amazing. He wrote a book maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago called Linchpin. And Linchpin is not his most famous book, but it's the book that changed my life because it really nudges you. In a gentle and not so gentle way sometimes. No, I'm saying in a gentle way. It nudges you to don't set for what you have, but to see your inner talents and to innovate and to be creative, be generous, and so on. So, Linchpin to me is the book that changed it all for me. So, I think that everybody, young, less young, everybody should read once in a lifetime.

Paul Marden: I feel like I need to go and read this because that is one Seth Godin book I have not read. So there we go. Listeners, if you would like a copy of Linchpin, then the first person that heads over to LinkedIn and reposts our show notice and says, 'I want Massimiliano's book' and can spell Massimiliano correctly, will have a copy of the book sent to them. We've got IAAPA Europe taking place next week in Barcelona.

Paul Marden: And we have a very special Skip the Queue announcement. We are going to be hitting the show floor on a daily basis. We are going to go live for daily episodes of Skip the Queue from the show floor. We're going to be talking to operators about what their challenges are like. Finding out what new supplier announcements are coming out. And the Skip the Queue team is going to be feverishly working away. We'll be recording during the day and Steve and Wenalyn will be editing and producing through the night, ready to post the show the following morning. So I'm very excited about that.

Massimiliano Freddi: And I think we are super excited to have you guys on the trade show floor. And I recommend... Of course, visiting it, making the most out of it, and don't underestimate the fantastic education sessions that take place. There is a strong lineup of speakers that will impact the way that the industry will be in a few years. So, great opportunity.

Paul Marden:  How's that for a trailer? That sounds amazing. Massimilliano, it really has been a pleasure to talk to you.

Massimiliano Freddi: Thank you so much, Paul, for me as well. And see you in Barcelona.

Paul Marden: Yes, how exciting. Looking forward to it.

Paul Marden: Remember, if you'd like a copy of today's book, head over to LinkedIn and repost our show notice saying, 'I want a copy of Massimiliano's book.' If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on your podcasting platform. It really helps people to find the show. If you didn't enjoy it, or you've got ideas about how we could improve the show, then let us know at [email protected]. 

My thanks to Massimiliano and his team at IAAPA for their help with this episode. Skip The Queue is brought to you by 

Rubber Cheese, the digital agency that creates amazing websites for ambitious visitor attractions. This episode was written by Emily Burrows, produced by Wenalyn Dionaldo and edited by Steve Folland. To Skip the Queue team, also includes Sami Entwistle, Sinead Kimberley, Claire Furnival, and Andy Povey.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip The Queue is back for Season 7 and we’re announcing some big changes! Get ready for new hosts, a fresh new look, weekly content and find out where you can catch us live at events to be part of the action.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden  and Andy Povey.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

Show references: 

Paul Marden 

The CEO of Rubber Cheese, Paul pairs two decades of digital expertise with a love of creative problem solving, making him the go-to guy for turning tricky tech into seamless guest journeys, all delivered with his trademark energy and wit.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/

Andy Povey 

The Co-CEO of Crowd Convert, Andy brings sharp insights, deep industry knowledge and notorious anecdotes from decades in attractions.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/
 

Transcriptions: 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best visitor attractions and the people that work in them. I'm Paul Marden. Along with my co-hosts, Andy Povey and Sinead Kimberley, I spend my days working with ambitious attractions like theme parks, museums, galleries, and science centres to help them to attract more guests. In today's episode, Andy and I talk about what's coming up for Skip the Queue as we enter Season 7.

Paul Marden: Seven seasons, hey? Good lord. How very exciting. We've had our summer holidays. We've had our little break, but there's no rest for the wicked, is there?

Andy Povey: Absolutely not. You say it's a busman's holiday, really, isn't it?  Working in our industry.

Paul Marden: I think it is, isn't it? Life has changed quite a lot for us recently, hasn't it? In the last few months, with the advent of Crowd Convert and Merac coming back to life again, we've been out on the road going everywhere, haven't we?

Andy Povey: Absolutely everywhere. And I promise I'm not going to bitch about electric cars and charging.

Andy Povey: That's the only thing I've found that annoys me more than a poor online ticketing experience.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So we have both been visiting lots of clients. It's been very exciting. But we've also both had our summer holidays. Which attraction is memorable for you from your recent holiday?

Andy Povey: Do you know, there's so many. We took our girls to the longest named tourist attraction in the world, I think. Warner Brothers Studio Tour London, the making of Harry Potter. On their 11th birthday. Oh, how was that? We had a beautiful experience. They have this really smart trick there where if they note your birthday, they give you a badge that says, 'It's my birthday.'

Andy Povey: It's modelled on the birthday cake that Hagrid gave Harry. So it's all completely in keeping and in theme. So my daughters were walking around with these and every member of staff we saw that saw the badge wished them happy birthday. The first member of staff that did it absolutely blew my girls' minds. They hadn't associated it with the badge that they were wearing and they thought that they were the most special people on the face of the earth.

Andy Povey: Absolutely superb. And the experience itself is wonderful. So that was probably the most memorable. I did something else very recently that was a little bit unusual. So I'm a man in my 50s. I was a teenager, probably not even a teenager, a kid when Grease came out. And all my mates and all my friends raved about it, and I didn't go and see it. And I've been very proud of the fact that I've never seen Grease.

Andy Povey: Until last weekend. When we went to the Secret Cinema showing of Grease in Battersea Park, wow, wow, what an experience. Live actors, live scenes with the film running in the background, the fairground sitting outside the auditorium, where the final set, if you've watched Grease ever, where they're in the fairground, went out there.

Andy Povey: Such a fantastic experience. Really does make me wonder why we don't have more of our larger parks doing that kind of stuff in partnership with Secret Cinema. It would make you stay for the evening and really extend your day. Absolutely superb experience. So, if you get the opportunity to go and see it, please do.

Paul Marden: How very cool.

Andy Povey: Tell them Andy sent you, which will mean absolutely nothing.  How about you?

Paul Marden: We recently went to Scotland. We spent a day, which was really not enough, in Edinburgh. And actually, as you're talking about the Harry Potter experience, we did a little Harry Potter thing because there is a graveyard, Greyfriars Bobby's graveyard.

Paul Marden: It was the inspiration for many of the names in Harry Potter. And this graveyard was, I mean, it was chock full of every nationality of tourist you could possibly imagine, plus the three of us wandering around all trying to find Harry Potter themed gravestones. Yeah, so we found Tom Riddle's tombstone. We saw a McGonagall. Yeah, it was just, that was quite magical. But the thing that sticks in my head is we also visited the Real Mary King's Close. And when you walk along the Royal Mile, falling off the side of the Royal Mile are all of these tenement closes that three of them were capped over a couple of hundred years ago and completely forgotten about. Continuum attractions have turned them into an attraction that you can wander around. You get a guided tour of this time capsule of what life was like in a tenement block. In Edinburgh, it was rated last year as the best tourist attraction in Britain, according to TripAdvisor.

Paul Marden: And it really, really was magical. It was such a fun visit. We were guided around by a tour guide in costume and in character the whole way around. And at the end of it, she introduced herself as coming from Philadelphia.

Paul Marden: She was really really great guide, and I just loved it. I've seen them in the Rubber Cheese Survey for the last four years, and thought, 'What a funny name for an attraction? I wonder what that is?' And so, when I saw it, I had to go. I loved every minute of it, and it was brilliant.

Andy Povey: I agree, it's a fantastic place. Did you see J. K. Rowling's handprints just around the corner?

Paul Marden: No.

Andy Povey: In the courtyard next to the entrance?

Paul Marden: No, I didn't.

Andy Povey: See, I think they were trying to do something like the Hollywood Walk of Fame, where there are famous people's handprints. I should have told you before. Is there something to go back for?

Paul Marden: Oh, we'll definitely be going back. There was so much there in Edinburgh that we didn't get to see. You just couldn't do it in a day.

Paul Marden: But so much fun. So much fun.

Paul Marden: So we are into season seven. And just like the last few seasons, we've got lots of ideas, brimming with ideas, few changes. And we thought we would tease them for you here in this short non-episode, just to tell you about some of the things that are coming up. And yeah, shall we?

Paul Marden: We'll talk about the first thing that you came up with, which was the move to weekly content.

Andy Povey:  You're blaming me for this?

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Andy Povey: I mean, the objective was to double the listenership of the podcast. And so you did that by doubling my work. And it seemed like it would be really, really easy to do that if we doubled the episodes.

Andy Povey: So, yeah, we're going weekly. I'm sure we're going to have plenty to fill it. Because you look at all of the interesting stories we come across, the people that we talk to, the things that we want to talk about, and we end up editing and cutting things. So I'm convinced that we're going to have loads of really exciting things to talk about. We're also going to introduce a couple of different themes. So do you want to talk about the Millennium-funded projects?

Paul Marden: Yes, so this is carrying on the theme that I started back at the back end of Season 6. When I spoke to another Edinburgh attraction, Dynamic Earth. They were a good example of a Millennium project that was obviously kicked off 25 years ago. And we had a lovely conversation about what has been the challenges, what has been the opportunities for them in the last 25 years, and what does the future look like? I'm off to the Association of Science and Discovery Centres conference next week. That episode will be out in a few weeks' time. And we're going to be talking a lot about science centres. and how they can thrive over the next 25 years. But we'll be talking to some other Millennium projects as well in the season ahead. So Charles Bishop from the National Space Centre, if you're listening, give me a call.

Andy Povey: I'm going to try and hound you to appear on the podcast.

Paul Marden: We've also, this is very self-indulgent, but we are going to be going through a little bit of a rebrand. The Skip the Queue brand has stayed the same for the six seasons. And our friends at Plaster Creative Communications have been working really hard. They're the only reason why we could possibly go weekly with our content because Emily and Sami are helping us to ramp up our content and working with us closely. But they've also helped us with our rebrand, which is also going to be an audio rebrand. So there's going to be some new audio tickling your ears coming up as well, which is very exciting.

Andy Povey: It's not just the rebrand though, is it? Let's talk about the other things that we're going to be doing with Skip the Queue.

Paul Marden: Yeah. Should we talk playbooks?

Andy Povey: Absolutely. Tell me what it means.

Paul Marden: So I, for a long time, thought that there was something that Skip the Queue could do because, you know. Yes, this is our baby, but it is a lot of hard work from across the industry that goes towards making the podcast the success that it is. And we're going to move that successful collaboration into a series of playbooks where we're bringing together people from across the industry to help guide attractions into... the state of the art and what's possible within the sector across a number of different subjects. And we're starting that with e-commerce. So we're currently collaborating with our friends at Stephen Spencer Associates and at Navigate. And we're producing the first in that playbook series all about what... What does it take to be able to build an amazing e-commerce experience for an attraction? How do you curate the products?

Paul Marden: How do you come up with the ideas? How do you put the technology together? And then how do you get anybody to come and visit and buy from you? So that's very exciting.

Andy Povey: So that's more of your gift shop. Retail e-commerce.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. Absolutely. And there'll be room as well within the series for us to talk about other things as well. So we are completely open to ideas. So listeners, if you've got ideas of a playbook that you'd like to see, it could be about digital sustainability. It could be about ticketing. It could be about any aspect of operating an attraction. Come and tell us and come up with ideas of who we could work with and we'll put something together for you. So I think that's really exciting, and that will be coming out in a few weeks' time.

Andy Povey: Very interesting. Look forward to that.

Paul Marden: We were excited in Season 6 to break out of the four walls of our little dungeon offices, working via video conferencing and going out and about, weren't we? We absolutely loved visiting the NFAN Conference, ASDC.

Paul Marden: We worked from the floor of so many different events, didn't we? And tried lots of formats. And we definitely, definitely want to do more of that. And there's an exciting turn because weekly isn't enough, is it?

Andy Povey:  If you're going to do it, go big. Go big or go home.

Paul Marden: We have been invited to the IAAPA Europe Conference Expo in Barcelona, no less. And we are going to be coming into your ears daily, not weekly, daily.

Paul Marden: So we have got an amazing lineup of people that we are going to be talking to from the conference floor. But there's also so much time to fill. We don't know who we're going to talk to. We're going to be hitting the floor and just grabbing people, just like we did at NFAN. You'll be out, Andy, just hooking people. And we'll be talking to them. And we plan to do those interviews during the day, and Wenalyn and Steve, our long-suffering editorial and production team, will be working furiously through the night to publish the following morning.

Andy Povey: Fantastic. So do we need to talk about our launch episode for Season 7?

Paul Marden: Yes.

Andy Povey: As this is just the trailer.

Paul Marden: Yes. So in 29 minutes, I will be recording my launch episode. So I'm meeting with Massimiliano Freddi, who is the IAAPA board chairman. We're going to find out more about Massimiliano. Not only is he the first Italian chairman of IAAPA, which has been in existence for over 100 years, I believe. We are also going to find out about what he does in his day job and the attraction that he runs over in Italy. So that's a very exciting first episode. So we will be launching that episode 17th of September, and then we will be live from Barcelona starting on the 23rd and going out daily from there on for the rest of that week. I mean, what more could we want?

 Andy Povey: It's justification for the family for me going to Barcelona after just having returned from Menorca so daddy does a holiday work.

Paul Marden: We've at least got to walk down Las Rambla and chat about the conference we can't just be within the expo location surely. A little vino tinto on.

Andy Povey: I'm sure we will be at Tribudabo at what, in my experience, this is the third time I've been to IAAPA in Barcelona. But the opening night party in Tribudabo has always been one of the most fantastic events I've ever been to. The view over the city at night with rides and superb food, drink and entertainment going off behind you is just  out of this world.

Paul Marden: But it's work just for anyone that's listening outside the door right now.

Andy Povey: Very hard work for very important people.

Paul Marden: Yes so we are still planning out the rest of season seven, obviously going weekly, lots of opportunities for us to talk to lots of people. If you've got ideas for themes or people that we could interview, we are absolutely all ears. So hit us up on LinkedIn, [email protected], or go to the website, skipthequeue.fm. Yeah, and you'll find all of our contact details and we'd love to hear from you with ideas of what we could do for the rest of this season. What would you find interesting? Apart from that, we're going to sign off. I've got an interview to go to in 25 minutes. We will be back with you on the 17th of September with our first episode and from IAAPA on the 23rd of September for the rest of that week.

Andy Povey: You're going to be on IAAPA. Come and find us. Come and have a chat.

Paul Marden: Looking forward to it.

Paul Marden: Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, the digital agency that creates amazing websites for ambitious visitor attractions.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

Download your FREE copy here

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 23rd July 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky.

Show references: 

Sam Mullins, Trustee at SS Great Britain

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/sammullins/
• https://www.ssgreatbritain.org/

Transcriptions: 

Paul Marden: What an amazing day out here. Welcome to Skip the Queue. The podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions, I'm your host, Paul Marden, and today you join me for the last episode of the season here in a very sunny and very pleasant Bristol Dockyard. 

I'm here to visit the SS Great Britain and one of their trustees, Sam Mullins, who until recently, was the CEO of London Transport Museum. And I'm going to be talking to Sam about life after running a big, family friendly Museum in the centre of London, and what comes next, and I'm promising you it's not pipes and the slippers for Sam, he's been very busy with the SSGreat Britain and with other projects that we'll talk a little more about. But for now, I'm going to enjoy poodling across the harbour on boat number five awaiting arrival over at the SS Great Britain. 

Paul Marden: Is there much to catch in the water here?

Sam Mullins: According to some research, there's about 36 different species of fish. They catch a lot of cream. They catch Roach, bullet, bass car. Big carpet there, maybe, yeah, huge carpet there. And then your European great eel is here as well, right? Yeah, massive things by the size of your leg, big heads. It's amazing. It goes to show how receipt your life is. The quality of the water is a lot better now. 

Paul Marden: Oh yeah, yeah, it's better than it used to be years ago. Thank you very much. All right. Cheers. Have a good day. See you later on. So without further ado, let's head inside. So where should we head? Too fast. 

Sam Mullins: So we start with the stern of the ship, which is the kind of classic entrance view, you know. Yeah, coming up, I do. I love the shape of this ship as you as you'll see.

Paul Marden: So lovely being able to come across the water on the boat and then have this as you're welcome. It's quite a.

Sam Mullins: It's a great spot. Isn't it?

Paul Marden: Really impactful, isn't it? 

Sam Mullins:  Because the amazing thing is that it's going this way, is actually in the dry dock, which was built to build it. 

Paul Marden: That's amazing. 

Sam Mullins: So it came home. It was clearly meant to be, you know,

Paul Marden:  Quite the circular story.

Sam Mullins:  Yeah, yeah. Thank you. 

Paul Marden:  Thank you. Wow. Look at that view.

Sam Mullins: So that's your classic view.

Paul Marden:  So she's in a dry dock, but there's a little bit of water in there, just to give us an idea of what's going on. 

Sam Mullins: Well, what's actually going on in here is, preserving the world's first iron ship. So it became clear, after he'd come back from the Falklands, 1970 came back to Bristol, it became clear that the material of the ship was rusting away. And if something wasn't done, there'd be nothing left, nothing left to show. So the innovative solution is based on a little bit of science if you can reduce the relative humidity of the air around the cast iron hull of the ship to around about 20% relative humidity, corrosion stops. Rusting stops. It's in a dry dock. You glaze over the dock at kind of water line, which, as you just noticed, it gives it a really nice setting. It looks like it's floating, yeah, it also it means that you can then control the air underneath. You dry it out, you dehumidify it. Big plant that dries out the air. You keep it at 20% and you keep the ship intact. 

Paul Marden: It's interesting, isn't it, because you go to Mary Rose, and you go into the ship Hall, and you've got this hermetically sealed environment that you can maintain all of these beautiful Tudor wooden pieces we're outside on a baking hot day. You don't have the benefit of a hermetically sealed building, do you to keep this? 

Sam Mullins: I guess the outside of the ship is kind of sealed by the paint. That stops the air getting to the bit to the bare metal. We can go down into the trigger, down whilst rise up.

Paul Marden:  We're wondering. Sam, yeah, why don't you introduce yourself, tell listeners a little bit about your background. How have we ended up having this conversation today.

Sam Mullins: I'm Sam Mullins. I'm a historian. I decided early on that I wanted to be a historian that worked in museums and had an opportunity to kind of share my fascination with the past with museum visitors. So I worked in much Wenlock in Shropshire. I worked created a new museum in market Harbour, a community museum in Leicestershire. I was director of museums in St Albans, based on, you know, great Roman Museum at Verulamium, okay. And ended up at London Transport Museum in the 90s, and was directed there for a long time.

Paul Marden: Indeed, indeed. Oh, we are inside now and heading underground.

Sam Mullins: And you can hear the thrumming in the background. Is the dehumidification going on. Wow. So we're descending into thevery dry dock.

Paul Marden: So we're now under water level. Yes, and the view of the ceiling with the glass roof, which above looked like a lovely little pond, it's just beautiful, isn't it?

Sam Mullins: Yes, good. It sets it off both in both directions, really nicely.

Paul Marden: So you've transitioned now, you've moved on from the Transport Museum. And I thought that today's episode, we could focus a little bit on what is, what's life like when you've moved on from being the director of a big, famous, influential, family friendly Museum. What comes next? Is it pipe and slippers, or are there lots of things to do? And I think it's the latter, isn't it? 

Sam Mullins: Yes. Well, you know, I think people retire either, you know, do nothing and play golf, or they build, you know, an interesting portfolio. I wanted to build, you know, something a bit more interesting. And, you know, Paul, there's that kind of strange feeling when you get to retire. And I was retiring from full time executive work, you kind of feel at that point that you've just cracked the job. And at that point, you know, someone gives you, you know, gives you a card and says, "Thank you very much, you've done a lovely job." Kind of, "Off you go." So having the opportunity to deploy some of that long term experience of running a successful Museum in Covent Garden for other organisations was part of that process of transition. I've been writing a book about which I'm sure we'll talk as well that's been kind of full on this year, but I was a trustee here for a number of years before I retired. I think it's really good career development for people to serve on a board to see what it's like, you know, the other side of the board. 

Paul Marden: I think we'll come back to that in a minute and talk a little bit about how the sausage is made. Yeah, we have to do some icebreaker questions, because I probably get you already. You're ready to start talking, but I'm gonna, I'm just gonna loosen you up a little bit, a couple of easy ones. You're sat in front of the telly, comedy or drama?

Sam Mullins: It depends. Probably.

Paul Marden: It's not a valid answer. 

Sam Mullins: Probably, probably drama.

Paul Marden: Okay, if you need to talk to somebody, is it a phone call or is it a text message that you'll send?

Sam Mullins:  Face to face? Okay, much better. Okay, always better. 

Paul Marden: Well done. You didn't accept the premise of the question there, did you? Lastly, if you're going to enter a room, would you prefer to have a personal theme tune played every time you enter the room. Or would you like a personal mascot to arrive fully suited behind you in every location you go to?

Sam Mullins: I don't know what the second one means, so I go for the first one.

Paul Marden: You've not seen a football mascot on watching American football or baseball?

Sam Mullins: No, I try and avoid that. I like real sport. I like watching cricket. 

Paul Marden: They don't do that in cricket. So we are at the business end of the hull of the ship, aren't we? We're next to the propeller. 

Sam Mullins: We're sitting under the stern. We can still see that lovely, gilded Stern, saying, Great Britain, Bristol, and the windows and the coat of arms across the stern of the ship. Now this, of course, was the biggest ship in the world when built. So not only was it the first, first iron ship of any scale, but it was also third bigger than anything in the Royal Navy at the time. 

Paul Marden: They talked about that, when we were on the warrior aim the other day, that it was Brunel that was leading the way on what the pinnacle of engineering was like. It was not the Royal Navy who was convinced that it was sail that needed to lead. 

Sam Mullins: Yeah, Brunel had seen a much smaller, propeller driven vessel tried out, which was being toured around the country. And so they were midway through kind of design of this, when they decided it wasn't going to be a paddle steamer, which its predecessor, the world's first ocean liner, the Great Western. A was a paddle steamer that took you to New York. He decided that, and he announced to the board that he was going to make a ship that was driven by a propeller, which was the first, and this is, this is actually a replica of his patent propeller design. 

Paul Marden: So, this propeller was, is not the original to the show, okay?

Sam Mullins: Later in its career, it had the engines taken out, and it was just a sailing ship. It had a long and interesting career. And for the time it was going to New York and back, and the time it was going to Australia and back, carrying migrants. It was a hybrid, usually. So you use the sails when it was favourable when it wasn't much wind or the wind was against. You use the use the engines. Use the steam engine.

Paul Marden: Coming back into fashion again now, isn't it? 

Sam Mullins: Yeah, hybrid, yeah.

Paul Marden: I can see holes in the hull. Was this evident when it was still in the Falklands?

Sam Mullins: Yeah, it came to notice in the 60s that, you know, this world's first it was beached at Sparrow Cove in the Falkland Islands. It had lost its use as a wool warehouse, which is which it had been for 30 or 40 years. And a number of maritime historians, you and call it. It was the kind of key one realised that this, you know, extraordinary, important piece of maritime heritage would maybe not last too many war winters at Sparrow cope had a big crack down one side of the hull. It would have probably broken in half, and that would have made any kind of conservation restoration pretty well impossible as it was. It was a pretty amazing trick to put it onto a to put a barge underneath, to raise it up out of the water, and to tow it into Montevideo and then across the Atlantic, you know, 7000 miles, or whatever it is, to Avon mouth. So it's a kind of heroic story from the kind of heroic age of industrial and maritime heritage, actually.

Paul Marden: It resonates for me in terms of the Mary Rose in that you've got a small group of very committed people that are looking to rescue this really valuable asset. And they find it and, you know, catch it just in time. 

Sam Mullins: Absolutely. That was one of the kind of eye openers for me at Mary rose last week, was just to look at the kind of sheer difficulty of doing conventional archaeology underwater for years and years. You know, is it 50,000 dives were made? Some immense number. And similarly, here, you know, lots of people kind of simply forget it, you know, it's never gonna, but a few, stuck to it, you know, formed a group, fund, raised. This is an era, of course, you know, before lottery and all that jazz. When you had to, you had to fundraise from the public to do this, and they managed to raise the money to bring it home, which, of course, is only step one. You then got to conserve this enormous lump of metal so it comes home to the dry dock in which it had been built, and that has a sort of fantastic symmetry, you know about it, which I just love. You know, the dock happened to be vacant, you know, in 1970 when the ship was taken off the pontoon at Avon mouth, just down the river and was towed up the curving Avon river to this dock. It came beneath the Clifton Suspension Bridge, which, of course, was Brunel design, but it was never built in his time. So these amazing pictures of this Hulk, in effect,  coming up the river, towed by tugs and brought into the dock here with 1000s of people you know, surrounding cheering on the sidelines, and a bit like Mary Rose in a big coverage on the BBC.

Paul Marden: This is the thing. So I have a very vivid memory of the Mary Rose being lifted, and that yellow of the scaffolding is just permanently etched in my brain about sitting on the carpet in primary school when the TV was rolled out, and it was the only TV in the whole of school that, to me is it's modern history happening. I'm a Somerset boy. I've been coming to Bristol all my life. I wasn't alive when Great Britain came back here. So to me, this feels like ancient history. It's always been in Bristol, because I have no memory of it returning home. It was always just a fixture. So when we were talking the other day and you mentioned it was brought back in the 70s, didn't realise that. Didn't realise that at all. Should we move on? Because I am listening. Gently in the warmth.

Sam Mullins: Let's move around this side of the as you can see, the dry dock is not entirely dry, no, but nearly.

Paul Marden: So, you're trustee here at SS Great Britain. What does that mean? What do you do?

Sam Mullins: Well, the board, Board of Trustees is responsible for the governance of the charity. We employ the executives, the paid team here. We work with them to develop the kind of strategy, financial plan, to deliver that strategy, and we kind of hold them as executives to account, to deliver on that.

Paul Marden: It's been a period of change for you, hasn't it? Just recently, you've got a new CEO coming to the first anniversary, or just past his first anniversary. It's been in place a little while.

Sam Mullins: So in the last two years, we've had a, we've recruited a new chairman, new chief executive, pretty much a whole new leadership team.One more starting next month, right? Actually, we're in July this month, so, yeah, it's been, you know, organisations are like that. They can be very, you know, static for some time, and then suddenly a kind of big turnover. And people, you know, people move.

Paul Marden: So we're walking through what is a curved part of the dry dock now. So this is becoming interesting underfoot, isn't it?

Sam Mullins: This is built in 1839 by the Great Western Steamship Company to build a sister ship to the Great Western which was their first vessel built for the Atlantic run to New York. As it happens, they were going to build a similar size vessel, but Brunel had other ideas, always pushing the edges one way or another as an engineer.

Paul Marden: The keel is wood. Is it all wood? Or is this some sort of?

Sam Mullins: No, this is just like, it's sort of sacrificial.So that you know when, if it does run up against ground or whatever, you don't actually damage the iron keel.

Paul Marden: Right. Okay, so there's lots happening for the museum and the trust. You've just had a big injection of cash, haven't you, to do some interesting things. So there was a press release a couple of weeks ago, about a million pound of investment. Did you go and find that down the back of the sofa? How do you generate that kind of investment in the charity?

Sam Mullins: Unusually, I think that trust that's put the bulk of that money and came came to us. I think they were looking to do something to mark their kind of, I think to mark their wind up. And so that was quite fortuitous, because, as you know at the moment, you know, fundraising is is difficult. It's tough. 

Paul Marden: That's the understatement of the year, isn't it?

Sam Mullins: And with a new team here and the New World post COVID, less, less visitors, income harder to gain from. Pretty well, you know, all sources, it's important to keep the site kind of fresh and interesting. You know, the ship has been here since 1970 it's become, it's part of Bristol. Wherever you go in Bristol, Brunel is, you know, kind of the brand, and yet many Bristolians think they've seen all this, and don't need, you know, don't need to come back again. So keeping the site fresh, keeping the ideas moving on, are really important. So we've got the dockyard museum just on the top there, and that's the object for fundraising at the moment, and that will open in July next year as an account of the building of the ship and its importance. 

Paul Marden: Indeed, that's interesting. Related to that, we know that trusts, trusts and grants income really tough to get. Everybody's fighting for a diminishing pot income from Ace or from government sources is also tough to find. At the moment, we're living off of budgets that haven't changed for 10 years, if we're lucky. Yeah, for many people, finding a commercial route is the answer for their museum. And that was something that you did quite successfully, wasn't it, at the Transport Museum was to bring commercial ideas without sacrificing the integrity of the museum. Yeah. How do you do that?

Sam Mullins: Well, the business of being an independent Museum, I mean, LTM is a to all sets of purposes, an independent Museum. Yes, 81% of its funding itself is self generated. 

Paul Marden: Is it really? Yeah, yeah. I know. I would have thought the grant that you would get from London Transport might have been bigger than that.  

Sam Mullins: The grant used to be much bigger proportion, but it's got smaller and smaller. That's quite deliberate. Are, you know, the more you can stand on your own two feet, the more you can actually decide which direction you're going to take those feet in. Yeah. So there's this whole raft of museums, which, you know, across the UK, which are independently governed, who get all but nothing from central government. They might do a lottery grant. Yes, once in a while, they might get some NPO funding from Ace, but it's a tiny part, you know, of the whole. And this ship, SS Great Britain is a classic, you know, example of that. So what do you do in those circumstances? You look at your assets and you you try and monetise them. That's what we did at London Transport Museum. So the museum moved to Covent Garden in 1980 because it was a far sighted move. Michael Robbins, who was on the board at the time, recognised that they should take the museum from Scion Park, which is right on the west edge, into town where people were going to be, rather than trying to drag people out to the edge of London. So we've got that fantastic location, in effect, a high street shop. So retail works really well, you know, at Covent Garden.

Paul Marden: Yeah, I know. I'm a sucker for a bit of moquette design.

Sam Mullins: We all love it, which is just great. So the museum developed, you know, a lot of expertise in creating products and merchandising it. We've looked at the relationship with Transport for London, and we monetised that by looking at TFL supply chain and encouraging that supply chain to support the museum. So it is possible to get the TFL commissioner to stand up at a corporate members evening and say, you know, you all do terribly well out of our contract, we'd like you to support the museum as well, please. So the corporate membership scheme at Transport Museum is bigger than any other UK museum by value, really, 60, 65 members,. So that was, you know, that that was important, another way of looking at your assets, you know, what you've got. Sometimes you're talking about monetising relationships. Sometimes it's about, you know, stuff, assets, yeah. And then in we began to run a bit short of money in the kind of middle of the teens, and we did an experimental opening of the Aldwych disused tube station on the strand, and we're amazed at the demand for tickets.

Paul Marden: Really, it was that much of a surprise for you. And we all can talk. 

Sam Mullins: We had been doing, we've been doing some guided tours there in a sort of, slightly in a one off kind of way, for some time. And we started to kind of think, well, look, maybe should we carry on it? 

Paul Marden: You've got the audience that's interested.

Sam Mullins: And we've got the access through TFL which, you know, took a lot of work to to convince them we weren't going to, you know, take loads of people underground and lose them or that they jump out, you know, on the Piccadilly line in the middle of the service, or something. So hidden London is the kind of another really nice way where the museum's looked at its kind of assets and it's monetised. And I don't know what this I don't know what this year is, but I think there are now tours run at 10 different sites at different times. It's worth about half a million clear to them to the museum.

Paul Marden: It's amazing, and they're such brilliant events. So they've now opened up for younger kids to go. So I took my daughter and one of her friends, and they were a little bit scared when the lights got turned off at one point, but we had a whale of a time going and learning about the history of the tube, the history of the tube during the war. It was such an interesting, accessible way to get to get them interested in stuff. It was brilliant.

Sam Mullins: No, it's a great programme, and it was doing well before COVID, we went into lockdown, and within three weeks, Chris Nix and the team had started to do kind of zoom virtual tours. We all are stuck at home looking at our screens and those hidden London hangouts the audience kind of gradually built yesterday TV followed with secrets of London Underground, which did four series of. Hidden London book has sold 25,000 copies in hardback, another one to come out next year, maybe.

Paul Marden: And all of this is in service of the museum. So it's almost as if you're opening the museum up to the whole of London, aren't you, and making all of that space you're you. Museum where you can do things.

Sam Mullins: Yeah. And, of course, the great thing about hidden London programme is it's a bit like a theatre production. We would get access to a particular site for a month or six weeks. You'd sell the tickets, you know, like mad for that venue. And then the run came to an end, and you have to, you know, the caravan moves on, and we go to, you know, go to go to a different stations. So in a sense, often it's quite hard to get people to go to an attraction unless they've got visitors staying or whatever. But actually, if there's a time limit, you just kind of have to do it, you know.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Everybody loves a little bit of scarcity, don't they? 

Sam Mullins: Should we go up on the deck? 

Paul Marden: That sounds like fun to me.

Sam Mullins: Work our way through.

Paul Marden: So Hidden London was one of the angles in order to make the museum more commercially sound. What are you taking from your time at LTM and bringing to the party here at the SS Great Britain?

Sam Mullins: Well, asking similar, you know, range of questions really, about what assets do we have? Which of those are, can be, can be monetised in support of the charity? Got here, Paul, so we're, we've got the same mix as lots of middle sized museums here. There's a it's a shop, paid admission, hospitality events in the evening, cafe. You know that mix, what museums then need to do is kind of go, you know, go beyond that, really, and look at their estate or their intellectual property, or the kind of experiences they can offer, and work out whether some of that is monetisable.

Paul Marden: Right? And you mentioned before that Brunel is kind of, he's the mascot of Bristol. Almost, everything in Bristol focuses on Brunel. Is there an opportunity for you to collaborate with other Brunel themed sites, the bridge or?

Sam Mullins: Yeah. Well, I think probably the opportunity is to collaborate with other Bristol attractions. Because Bristol needs to. Bristol's having a hard time since COVID numbers here are nowhere near what they were pre COVID So, and I think it's the same in the city, across the city. So Andrew chief executive, is talking to other people in the city about how we can share programs, share marketing, that kind of approach.

Paul Marden: Making the docks a destination, you know, you've got We the Curious. Where I was this morning, having coffee with a friend and having a mooch around. Yeah, talking about science and technology, there must be things that you can cross over. This was this war. This feels like history, but it wasn't when it was built, was it? It was absolutely the cutting edge of science and technology.

Sam Mullins: Absolutely, and well, almost beyond, you know, he was Brunel was pushing, pushing what could be done. It is the biggest ship. And it's hard to think of it now, because, you know, you and I can walk from one end to the other in no time. But it was the biggest ship in the world by, you know, some way, when it was launched in 1845 so this was a bit like the Great Western Railway. It was cutting edge, cutting edge at the time, as we were talking about below. It had a propeller, radical stuff. It's got the bell, too,

Paul Marden: When we were on, was it Warrior that we were on last week at the AIM conference for the first. And warrior had a propeller, but it was capable of being lifted, because the Admiralty wasn't convinced that this new fangled propeller nonsense, and they thought sail was going to lead. 

Sam Mullins: Yeah. Well, this ship had, you could lift a you could lift a propeller, because otherwise the propeller is a drag in the water if it's not turning over. So in its earlier configurations, it was a, it was that sort of a hybrid, where you could lift the propeller out the way, right, set full sail.

Paul Marden:  Right, and, yeah, it's just, it's very pleasant out here today, isn't it? Lovely breeze compared to what it's been like the last few days. 

Sam Mullins: Deck has just been replaced over the winter. 

Paul Marden:  Oh, has it really. So say, have you got the original underneath

Sam Mullins: The original was little long, long gone. So what we have replaced was the deck that was put on in the in the 70s when the ship came back.

Paul Marden: Right? You were talking earlier on about the cafe being one of the assets. You've done quite a lot of work recently, haven't you with the team at Elior to refurbish the cafe? What's the plan around that?

Sam Mullins: Yeah, we're doing a big reinvestment. You always need to keep the offer fresh anyway, but it was time to reinvest. So the idea is to use that fantastic space on the edge of the dock. It's not very far down to where the floating harbour is really well populated with kind of restaurants and bars and an offer, we're just that 200 meters further along the dock. So perhaps to create an offer here that draws people up here, whether they visit the ship, you know, or not. So it's money, it's monetising your assets. So one of the great assets is this fabulous location on the on the dockside. So with early or we're reinvesting in the restaurant, it's going to go in the auto into after some trial openings and things, Paul, you know, it's going to have an evening offer as well as a daytime offer. And then it's been designed so the lights can go down in the evening. It becomes, you know, an evening place, rather than the museum's all day cafe, yes, and the offer, and obviously in the evenings would similarly change. And I think our ambition is that you should, you should choose this as the place to go out in the evening. Really, it's a great spot. It's a lovely, warm evening. We're going to walk along the dockside. I've booked a table and in the boardwalk, which is what we're calling it. And as you pay the bill, you notice that actually, this is associated with Asus, Great Britain. So, you know, the profit from tonight goes to help the charity, rather than it's the museum cafe. So that's the,

Paul Marden: That's the pitch.

Sam Mullins: That's the pitch in which we're working with our catering partners, Eli, or to deliver.

Paul Marden: Andrew, your CEO and Claire from Eli, or have both kindly said that I can come back in a couple of months time and have a conversation about the restaurant. And I think it would be rude to turn them down, wouldn't it?

Sam Mullins: I think you should test the menu really fully.

Paul Marden: I will do my best. It's a tough job that I have. 

Sam Mullins: Somebody has to do this work. 

Paul Marden: I know, talking of tough jobs, the other thing that I saw when I was looking at the website earlier on was a press release talking about six o'clock gin as being a a partnership that you're investigating, because every museum needs its own tipple, doesn't it?

Sam Mullins: Absolutely And what, you know, I think it's, I think what people want when they go to an attraction is they, they also want something of the offer to be locally sourced, completely, six o'clock gym, you know, Bristol, Bristol beers. You can't always do it, but I think, I think it's where you've got the opportunity. And Bristol's a bit of a foodie centre. There's quite a lot going on here in that respect. So, yes, of course, the museum ought to be ought to be doing that too.

Paul Marden: I was very kindly invited to Big Pit over in the Welsh Valleys about 8 or 12 weeks ago for the launch, relaunch of their gift shop offering. And absolutely, at the core of what they were trying to do was because it's run by Museums Wales, they found that all of their gift shops were just a bland average of what you could get at any of the museums. None of them spoke of the individual place. So if you went to big pit, the gift shop looked the same as if you were in the centre of Cardiff, whereas now when you go you see things that are naturally of Big Pit and the surrounding areas. And I think that's so important to create a gift shop which has things that is affordable to everybody, but at the same time authentic and genuinely interesting.

Sam Mullins: Yeah, I'm sure that's right. And you know I'm saying for you is for me, when I when I go somewhere, you want to come away with something, don't you? Yes, you know, you're a National Trust member and you haven't had to pay anything to get in. But you think I should be supporting the cause, you know, I want to go into that shop and then I want to, I want to buy some of the plants for my garden I just seen, you know, on the estate outside. Or I want to come away with a six o'clock gin or, you know, whatever it might be, there's and I think, I think you're more likely to buy if it's something that you know has engaged you, it's part of that story that's engaged you, right, while you're here. That's why everyone buys a guidebook and reads it afterwards.

Paul Marden: Yeah, it's a reminder, isn't it, the enjoyable time that you've had? Yeah, I'm enjoying myself up on the top deck. 

Sam Mullins:  But should we go downstairs? The bow is a great view. Oh, let's do that. I think we might. Let's just work our way down through.

Paul Marden: Take a sniff. Could you travel with these smelly passengers? Oh, no, I don't think I want to smell what it's like to be a cow on board shit. 

Sam Mullins: Fresh milk. Just mind yourself on these companion, ways are very steep now. This is probably where I get completely lost.

Paul Marden: You know what we need? We need a very good volunteer. Don't we tell a volunteer story? COVID in the kitchen. Wow. 

Sam Mullins: The Gabby.

Paul Marden: Generous use of scent. 

Sam Mullins: Yeah, food laid out pretty much based on what we know was consumed on the ship. One of the great things about the ship is people kept diaries. A lot of people kept diaries, and many have survived, right? You know exactly what it was like to be in first class or in steerage down the back.

Paul Marden: And so what was the ship used for? 

Sam Mullins: Well, it was used, it was going to be an ocean liner right from here to New York, and it was more like the Concord of its day. It was essentially first class and second class. And then it has a founders on a bay in Northern Ireland. It's rescued, fitted out again, and then the opportunity comes take people to Australia. The Gold Rush in the 1850s. Migration to Australia becomes the big kind of business opportunity for the ships. Ships new owners. So there's more people on board that used to it applies to and fro to Australia a number of times 30 odd, 40 times. And it takes, takes passengers. It takes goods. It does bring back, brings back gold from because people were there for the gold rush. They were bringing their earnings, you know, back with them. It also brings mail, and, you know, other. Kind of car goes wool was a big cargo from. 

Paul Marden: Say, people down and assets back up again.

Sam Mullins: People both directions. 

Paul Marden: Okay, yeah. How long was it taking?

Sam Mullins: Well, a good trip. I think it did it in 50 odd days. Bit slower was 60 odd. And the food was like this. So it was steerage. It was probably a bit more basic. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, yes, I can imagine. 

Sam Mullins: I think we might. Here's the engines. Let's do the engines well.

Paul Marden: Yes. So now we're in the engine room and, oh, it's daylight lit, actually. So you're not down in the darkest of depths, but the propeller shaft and all of the mechanism is it runs full length, full height of the ship.

Sam Mullins: Yeah, it runs off from here, back to the propeller that we're looking at. Okay, down there a guy's stoking the boilers, putting coal into into the boilers, 24 hour seven, when the engines are running. 

Paul Marden: Yes, that's going to be a tough job, isn't it? Yeah, coal is stored in particular locations. Because that was something I learned from warrior, was the importance of making sure that you had the coal taken in the correct places, so that you didn't unbalance the ship. I mean,

Sam Mullins: You right. I mean loading the ship generally had to be done really carefully so, you know, sort of balanced out and so forth. Coal is tends to be pretty low down for yes, for obvious reasons.

Paul Marden: So let's talk a little bit about being a trustee. We're both trustees of charities. I was talking to somebody last week who been in the sector for a number of years, mid career, interested in becoming a trustee as a career development opportunity. What's the point of being a trustee? What's the point of the trustees to the CEO, and what's the benefit to the trustees themselves? 

Sam Mullins: Well, let's do that in order for someone in the mid part of their career, presumably looking to assume some kind of leadership role. At some point they're going to be dealing with a board, aren't they? Yes, they might even be doing, you know, occasional reporting to a board at that at their current role, but they certainly will be if they want to be chief executive. So getting some experience on the other side of the table to feel what it's like to be a trustee dealing with chief executive. I think he's immensely useful. I always recommended it to to my gang at the Transport Museum, and they've all been on boards of one sort or another as part of their career development.

Sam Mullins: For the chief executive. What's the benefit? Well, the board, I mean, very directly, hold the chief executive to account. Yes, are you doing what we asked you to do? But also the wise chief executive recruits a board that's going to be helpful in some way or another. It's not just there to catch them out. Yeah, it's it's there to bring their experience from business, from IT, from marketing, from other museums into the business of running the place. So here we've got a range of Trustees. We've been we've recruited five or six in the last couple of years qquite deliberately to we know that a diverse board is a good board, and that's diverse in the sense not just a background, but of education, retired, still, still at work, young, old, male, female, you know, you name in.

Paul Marden: In all of the directions

Sam Mullins:  Yeah. So a diverse board makes better decisions than one that just does group think all the time. It's, you know, it's a truism, isn't it? I think we all kind of, we all understand and understand that now and then, for the trustee, you know, for me, I particularly last couple of years, when the organization has been through huge changes, it's been really interesting to deploy my prior experience, particularly in governance, because governance is what it all comes down to in an organisation. You do learn over the course of your career to deploy that on behalf, you know, this is a great organisation, the story of Brunel and the ship and and, you know, his influence on the railways. And I travel down on the Great Western railways, yeah, the influence of Brunel is, you know, is enormous. It's a fantastic story. It's inspiring. So who wouldn't want to join? You know what in 2005 was the Museum of the year? Yes, I think we'll just go back there where we came. Otherwise, I never found my way.

Paul Marden: Back through the kitchen. 

Sam Mullins: Back through the kitchen. It looks like stew is on the menu tonight. You've seen me at the mobile the rat.

Paul Marden: And also the cat up on the shelf. He's not paying a lot of attention to the rat

Sam Mullins: Back on deck. 

Paul Marden: Wonderful. Yeah. So the other great endeavor that you've embarked on is writing, writing a book. Tell us a little bit about the book.

Sam Mullins: Yeah, I've written a history of transport in London and its influence on London since 2000 since the mayoralty, elected mayoralty was, was started, you know, I was very lucky when I was running the museum where I had kind of one foot in TfL and one foot out. I knew lots of people. I was there for a long time, yes, so it was, it was easy to interview about 70 of them.

Paul Marden: Right? I guess you've built trust levels, haven't you? Yeah, I don't mean that you don't look like a journalist walking in from the outside with an ax to grind. 

Sam Mullins: And I'm not going to kind of screw them to the Evening Standard, you know, tomorrow. So it's a book based on interviews, oral reminiscences. It's very much their story. So it's big chunks of their accounts of, you know, the big events in London. So what was it like to be in the network control room on the seventh of July, 2005 when the bombs went off? What was it like to be looking out for congestion charge the day it started? Yep. What was it like to kind of manage the Olympics?

Paul Marden: You know? So you're mentioning these things. And so I was 10 years at British Airways. I was an IT project manager, but as well, I was a member of the emergency planning team. Yeah. So I got involved in the response to September the 11th. I got involved in some of the engagement around seven, seven, there's seminal moments, and I can, I can vividly remember myself being there at that time. But similarly, I can remember being there when we won the Olympics, and we were all sat in the staff canteen waiting to hear whether we'd won the Olympics, and the roar that erupted. There's so many of those things that have happened in the last 25 years where, you know, you've got, it's recent history, but it's real interesting events that have occurred that you can tell stories of.

Sam Mullins: Yeah. So what I wanted to get in the book was a kind of sense of what it was like to be, really at the heart of those, those stories. And there are, you know, there are, there are people in TfL who made those big things happen? Yes, it's not a big, clumsy bureaucracy. It's a place where really innovative leadership was being exercised all the way through that 25 years. Yes, so it runs up to COVID, and what was it like when COVID struck? So the book's called Every Journey Matters, and it comes out in November.

Paul Marden: Amazing, amazing. So we have, we've left the insides of the ship, and we are now under, what's this part of the ship? 

Sam Mullins: We're under the bow. There we go, and a bow spread that gets above our heads. So again, you've got this great, hulking, cast iron, black hull, beautifully shaped at the bow. Look the way it kind of tapers in and it tapers in and out.

Paul Marden: It's a very three dimensional, isn't it? The curve is, is in every direction. 

Sam Mullins: Yeah,it's a great, great shape. So it's my sort of, I think it's my favourite spot. I like coming to look at this, because this is the kind of, this is the business, yeah, of the ship.

Paul Marden: What have we got running along the front here? These these images in in gold.

Sam Mullins: This is a figurehead with Victoria's Coat of Arms only sua Kim Ali points on top with it, with a lion and a unicorn.

Paul Marden: It's a really, it's not a view that many people would have ever seen, but it is such an impressive view here looking up, yeah, very, very cool. And to stand here on the on the edge of the dry dock. 

Sam Mullins: Dry Docks in to our right, and the floating harbor is out to our left. Yeah.

Paul Marden: And much going on on that it's busy today, isn't it? 

Sam Mullins: Yeah, it's good. 

Paul Marden: So we've done full loop, haven't we? I mean, it has been a whistle stop tour that you've taken me on, but I've loved every moment of this. We always ask our guests a difficult question. Well, for some it's a difficult question, a book recommendation, which, as we agreed over lunch, cannot be your own book. I don't think, I think it's a little unfair 

Sam Mullins: Or anything I've ever written before.

Paul Marden: Yes, slightly self serving, but yeah.

Sam Mullins: It would be, wouldn't it look the first thing that comes to mind is, I've actually been reading my way through Mick Herron's Slow Horses series, okay, which I'm a big fan of detective fiction. I love Ian Rankin's Rebus. Okay, I read through Rebus endlessly when I want something just to escape into the sloughhouse series Slow Horses is really good, and the books all have a sort of similar kind of momentum to them. Something weird happens in the first few chapters, which seems very inconsequential and. Suddenly it turns into this kind of roller coaster. Will they? Won't they? You know, ending, which is just great. So I recommend Mick Herron's series. That's that's been the best, not best, fiction I've read in a long time.

Paul Marden: You know, I think there's something, there's something nice, something comforting, about reading a series of books where the way the book is structured is very similar. You can, you can sit down and you know what's going to happen, but, but there's something interesting, and it's, it's easy. 

Sam Mullins: It's like putting on a pair of old slippers. Oh, I'm comfortable with this. Just lead me along. You know, that's what, that's what I want. I enjoy that immensely.

Paul Marden: And should we be? Should we be inviting our listeners to the first book in the series, or do they need to start once, once he's got his, got his, found his way? 

Sam Mullins: Well, some people would have seen the television adaptation already. Well, that will have spoilt the book for them. Gary Oldman is Jackson lamb, who's the lead character, okay, but if you haven't, or you just like a damn good read, then you start with the first one, which I think is called Sloughhouse. They're all self contained, but you can work your way through them. 

Paul Marden: Well, that sounds very good. So listeners, if you'd like a copy of Sam's book, not Sam's book, Sam's book recommendation, then head over to Bluesky and repost the show notice and say, I want a copy of Sam's book, and the first one of you lovely listeners that does that will get a copy sent to you by Wenalyn. Sam This has been delightful. I hope listeners have enjoyed this as much as I have. This is our first time having a @skipthequeue in real life, where we wandered around the attraction itself and hopefully narrated our way bringing this amazing attraction to life. I've really enjoyed it. I can now say that as a West Country lad, I have actually been to the SS Great Britain. Last thing to say for visitor, for listeners, we are currently midway through the Rubber Cheese Annual Survey of visitor attraction websites. 

Paul Marden: If you look after an attraction website and you'd like to share some information about what you do, we are gathering all of that data together to produce a report that helps people to understand what good looks like for an attraction website. This is our fourth year. Listeners that are interested, head over to RubberCheese.com/survey, and you can find out a little bit more about the survey and some of the some of the findings from the past and what we're looking for for this year. Sam, thank you so very much.

Sam Mullins: Enjoyed it too. It's always good to rabbit on about what you do every day of the week, and being here and part of this really great organisation is huge privilege.

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm.

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 9th July 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky.

Show references: 

Matthew Tanner, Vice President of AIM and Independent Consultant 

• https://aim-museums.co.uk/

Richard Morsley, CEO of Chatham Historic Dockyard

• https://thedockyard.co.uk/

Hannah Prowse, CEO, Portsmouth Historic Quarter

• https://portsmouthhq.org/

Dominic Jones, CEO Mary Rose Trust

• https://maryrose.org/

Andrew Baines, Executive Director, Museum Operations, National Museum of the Royal Navy

• https://www.nmrn.org.uk/

Transcriptions:

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. The podcast of people working in and working with visitor attractions, and today you join me in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. I am actually in the shadow of HMS Victory at the moment, right next door to the Mary Rose. And I'm at the Association of Independent Museum's annual conference, and it is Wednesday night, and we're just about to enjoy the conference dinner. We've been told by Dominic Jones, CEO of Mary Rose, to expect lots of surprises and unexpected events throughout the meal, which I understand is a walking meal where we'll partake of our food and drink as we're wandering around the museum itself, moving course to course around different parts of the museum. So that sounds very exciting. 

Paul Marden:  Today's episode, I'm going to be joined by a I don't know what the collective noun is, for a group of Maritime Museum senior leaders, but that's what they are, and we're going to be talking about collaboration within and between museums, especially museums within the maritime sector. Is this a subject that we've talked about a lot previously? I know we've had Dominic Jones before as our number one most listened episode talking about collaboration in the sector, but it's a subject I think is really worthwhile talking about. 

Paul Marden: Understanding how museums work together, how they can stretch their resources, increase their reach by working together and achieving greater things than they can do individually. I do need to apologise to you, because it's been a few weeks since our last episode, and there's been lots going on in Rubber Cheese HQ, we have recently become part of a larger organisation, Crowd Convert, along with our new sister organisation, the ticketing company, Merac.

Paul Marden:  So there's been lots of work for me and Andy Povey, my partner in crime, as we merge the two businesses together. Hence why there's been a little bit of a lapse between episodes. But the good news is we've got tonight's episode. We've got one more episode where I'll be heading down to Bristol, and I'll talk a little bit more about that later on, and then we're going to take our usual summer hiatus before we start the next season. So two more episodes to go, and I'm really excited. 

Paul Marden:  Without further ado, I think it's time for us to meet our guests tonight. Let me welcome our guests for this evening. Matthew Tanner, the Vice President of AIM and an Independent Consultant within the museum sector. You've also got a role within international museums as well. Matthew, remind me what that was.

Matthew Tanner: That's right, I was president of the International Congress of Maritime Museums.

Paul Marden: And that will be relevant later. I'm sure everyone will hear. Richard Morsley, CEO of Chatham Historic Dockyard Trust. I've got Hannah Prowse with me, the CEO of Portsmouth Historic Quarter, the inimitable chief cheerleader for Skip the Queue Dominic Jones, CEO of Mary Rose Trust.

Dominic Jones: Great to be back.

Paul Marden: I expect this to be the number one episode because, you know, it's got to knock your previous episode off the hit list.

Dominic Jones: Listen with guests like this. It's going to be the number one. You've got the big hitters, and you've even got one more to go. This is gonna be incredible.

Paul Marden:  Exactly. And I've got Andrew Baines, the Executive Director Museum Operations at the National Museum of the Royal Navy. That's quite a title.

Dominic Jones: He loves a title that's a lot shorter than the last.

Paul Marden: Okay, so we always have icebreakers. And actually, it must be said, listeners, you, unless you're watching the YouTube, we've got the the perfect icebreaker because we've started on Prosecco already. So I'm feeling pretty lubed up. Cheers. So icebreakers, and I'm going to be fair to you, I'm not going to pick on you individually this time, which is what I would normally do with my victims. I'm going to ask you, and you can chime in when you feel you've got the right answer. So first of all, I'd like to hear what the best concert or festival is that you've been to previously.

Hannah Prowse: That's really easy for me, as the proud owner of two teenage daughters, I went Tay Tay was Slay. Slay. It was amazing. Three hours of just sheer performative genius and oh my god, that girl stamina. It was just insane. So yeah, it's got to be Tay Tay.

Paul Marden: Excellent. That's Taylor Swift. For those of you that aren't aware and down with the kids, if you could live in another country for a year, what would 

Dominic Jones: We not all answer the gig. I've been thinking of a gig. Well, I was waiting. Do we not all answer one, Rich has got a gig. I mean, you can't just give it to Hannah. Richard, come in with your gig.

Richard Morsley: Thank you. So I can't say it's the best ever, but. It was pretty damn awesome. I went to see pulp at the O2 on Saturday night. They were amazing. Are they still bringing it? They were amazing. Incredible. Transport me back.

Matthew Tanner:  Members mentioned the Mary Rose song. We had this.

Dominic Jones: Oh, come on, Matthew, come on. That was brilliant. That was special. I mean, for me, I'm not allowed to talk about it. It's probably end ups. But you know, we're not allowed to talk you know, we're not allowed to talk about other than here. But I'm taking my kids, spoiler alert, if you're listening to see Shawn Mendes in the summer. So that will be my new favourite gig, because it's the first gig for my kids. So I'm very excited about that. That's amazing. Amazing. Andrew, any gigs?

Andrew Baines: It has to be Blondie, the amazing. Glen Beck writing 2019, amazing.

Dominic Jones:  Can you get any cooler? This is going to be the number one episode, I can tell.

Paul Marden:  Okay, let's go with number two. If you could live in another country for a year, which one would you choose? 

Hannah Prowse: Morocco. 

Paul Marden: Really? Oh, so you're completely comfortable with the heat. As I'm wilting next.

Hannah Prowse: Completely comfortable. I grew up in the Middle East, my as an expat brat, so I'm really happy out in the heat. I just love the culture, the art, the landscape, the food, the prices, yeah, Morocco. For me, I think

Matthew Tanner: I've been doing quite a lot of work recently in Hong Kong. Oh, wow. It's this amazing mix of East and West together. There's China, but where everybody speaks English, which is fantastic.

Dominic Jones:  I lived in Hong Kong for a few years, and absolutely loved it. So I do that. But I think if I could choose somewhere to live, it's a it's a bit of cheating answer, because the country's America, but the place is Hawaii, because I think I'm meant for Hawaii. I think I've got that sort of style with how I dress, not today, because you are but you can get away with it. We're hosting, so. 

Paul Marden:  Last one hands up, if you haven't dived before, D with Dom.

Dominic Jones: But all of your listeners can come Dive the 4d at the Mary Rose in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, as well as the other amazing things you can do here with our friends and National Museum of Portsmouth Historic Quarter, he will cut this bit out.

Paul Marden:  Yeah, there will be a little bit of strict editing going on. And that's fair. So we want to talk a little bit today about collaboration within the Maritime Museum collective as we've got. I was saying on the intro, I don't actually know what the collective noun is for a group of Maritime Museum leaders, a wave?

Hannah Prowse: A desperation?

Paul Marden: Let's start with we've talked previously. I know on your episode with Kelly, you talked about collaboration here in the dockyard, but I think it's really important to talk a little bit about how Mary Rose, Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and the National Museum of the Royal Navy all work together. So talk a little bit for listeners that don't know about the collaboration that you've all got going. 

Dominic Jones:  We've got a wonderful thing going on, and obviously Hannah and Andrew will jump in. But we've got this great site, which is Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. We've got Portsmouth Historic Quarter that sort of curates, runs, owns the site, and I'll let Hannah come into that. We've got the Mary Rose, which is my favourite, amazing museum, and then we've got all of the museums and ships to the National Museum of the Royal Navy. But do you want to go first, Hannah, and talk about sort of what is Portsmouth Historic Quarter and the dockyard to you? 

Hannah Prowse:  Yeah, so at Portsmouth Historic Quarter, we are the landlords of the site, and ultimately have custody of this and pretty hard over on the other side of the water. And it's our job to curate the space, make sure it's accessible to all and make it the most spectacular destination that it can be. Where this point of debate interest and opportunity is around the destination versus attraction debate. So obviously, my partners here run amazing attractions, and it's my job to cite those attractions in the best destination that it can possibly be.

Matthew Tanner: To turn it into a magnet that draws

Dominic Jones: And the infrastructure. I don't know whether Hannah's mentioned it. She normally mentions it every five seconds. Have you been to the new toilets? Matthew, have you been to these new toilets?

Paul Marden: Let's be honest, the highlight of a museum. 

Richard Morsley: Yeah, get that wrong. We're in trouble.

Hannah Prowse: It's very important. 

Richard Morsley: But all of the amazing ships and museums and you have incredible.

Paul Marden: It's a real draw, isn't it? And you've got quite a big estate, so you you've got some on the other side of the dockyard behind you with boat trips that we take you over.

Andrew Baines:  Absolutely. So we run Victor here and warrior and 33 on the other side of the hub with the Royal Navy submarine museum explosion working in partnership with BHQ. So a really close collaboration to make it as easy as possible for people to get onto this site and enjoy the heritage that we are joint custodians of. 

Paul Marden:  Yeah, absolutely. It's amazing. So we're talking a little bit about museums collaborating together, which really is the essence of what we're here for conference, isn't it? I remember when we had the keynote this morning, we were talking about how important it is for everybody to come together. There's no egos here. Everyone's sharing the good stuff. And it was brilliant as well. Given that you're all maritime museums, is it more important for you to differentiate yourselves from one another and compete, or is it more important for you to collaborate?

Richard Morsley: Well, from my perspective, it's there is certainly not competitive. I think there's sufficient, I was sufficient distance, I think, between the the attractions for that to be the case, and I think the fact we're all standing here today with a glass of wine in hand, with smiles on our face kind of says, says a lot, actually, in terms of the collaboration within the sector. And as you say that the the AIM conference today that for me, is right, right at the heart of it, it's how we as an independent museum sector, all come together, and we share our knowledge, we share our best practice, and once a year, we have this kind of amazing celebration of these incredible organisations and incredible people coming together and having a wonderful couple of days. 

Matthew Tanner: But if I could step in there, it's not just the wine, is it rum, perhaps. The maritime sector in particular is one that is is so closely knit and collected by the sea, really. So in the international context, with the International Congress, is about 120 museums. around the world that come together every two years into the fantastic Congress meetings, the connections between these people have come from 1000s of miles away so strong, it's actually joy and reminds us of why we are so excited about the maritime.

Paul Marden: I saw you on LinkedIn last year. I think it was you had Mystic Seaport here, didn't you?

Dominic Jones: We did and we've had Australia. We've had so many. It all came from the ICM conference I went with and we had such a good time, didn't we saw Richard there. We saw Matthew, and it was just brilliant. And there's pinch yourself moments where you're with museums that are incredible, and then afterwards they ring you and ask you for advice. I'm thinking like there's a lady from France ringing me for advice. I mean, what's that about? I passed her to Andrew.

Hannah Prowse: I think also from a leadership perspective, a lot of people say that, you know, being a CEO is the loneliest job in the world, but actually, if you can reach out and have that network of people who actually are going through the same stuff that you're going through, and understand the sector you're working in. It's really, really great. So if I'm having a rubbish day, Dom and I will frequently meet down in the gardens outside between our two offices with a beer or an ice cream and just go ah at each other. And that's really important to be able to do.

Dominic Jones: And Hannah doesn't laugh when I have a crisis. I mean, she did it once. She did it and it hurt my feelings.

Hannah Prowse: It was really funny.

Dominic Jones:  Well, laughter, Dominic, 

Hannah Prowse: You needed. You needed to be made. You did. You did. But you know, and Richard and I have supported each other, and occasionally.

Richard Morsley: You know, you're incredibly helpful when we're going through a recruitment process recently.

Hannah Prowse: Came and sat in on his interview.

Richard Morsley: We were rogue. 

Hannah Prowse: We were so bad, we should never be allowed to interview today. 

Paul Marden:  I bet you were just there taking a list of, yeah, they're quite good. I'm not going to agree to that one.

Hannah Prowse: No, it was, it was great, and it's lovely to have other people who are going through the same stuff as you that you can lean on. 

Richard Morsley: Yeah, absolutely.

Dominic Jones: Incredible. It's such an important sector, as Matthew said, and we are close, the water doesn't divide us. It makes us it makes us stronger.

Matthew Tanner: Indeed. And recently, of course, there's increasing concern about the state of the marine environment, and maritime museums are having to take on that burden as well, to actually express to our puppets. It's not just about the ships and about the great stories. It's also about the sea. It's in excess, and we need to look after it. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, it's not just a view backwards to the past. It's around how you take that and use that as a model to go forward. 

Matthew Tanner: Last week, the new David Attenborough piece about the ocean 26 marathon museums around the world, simultaneously broadcasting to their local audiences. 

Dominic Jones: And it was phenomenal. It was such a good film. It was so popular, and the fact that we, as the Mary Rose, could host it thanks to being part of ICM, was just incredible. Have you seen it? 

Paul Marden:  I've not seen 

Dominic Jones: It's coming to Disney+, any day now, he's always first to know it's on. There you go. So watch it there. It's so good. 

Paul Marden: That's amazing. So you mentioned Disney, so that's a kind of an outside collaboration. Let's talk a little bit. And this is a this is a rubbish segue, by the way. Let's talk a little bit about collaborating outside of the sector itself, maybe perhaps with third party rights holders, because I know that you're quite pleased with your Lego exhibition at the moment.

Richard Morsley: I was actually going to jump in there. Dominic, because you've got to be careful what you post on LinkedIn. There's no such thing as I don't know friends Exactly. Really.

Dominic Jones: I was delighted if anyone was to steal it from us, I was delighted it was you. 

Richard Morsley: And it's been an amazing exhibition for us. It's bringing bringing Lego into the Historic Dockyard Chatham. I think one of the one of the things that we sometimes lack is that that thing that's kind of truly iconic, that the place is iconic, the site is incredible, but we don't have that household name. We don't have a Mary Rose. We don't have a victory. So actually working in partnership, we might get there later. We'll see how the conversation, but yeah, how we work with third parties, how we use third party IP and bring that in through exhibitions, through programming. It's really important to us. So working at a Lego brick Rex exhibition, an exhibition that really is a museum exhibition, but also tells the story of three Chatham ships through Lego, it's absolutely perfect for us, and it's performed wonderfully. It's done everything that we would have hoped it would be. 

Dominic Jones: I'm bringing the kids in the summer. I love Chatham genuinely. I know he stole the thing from LinkedIn, but I love Chatham. So I'll be there. I'll be there. I'll spend money in the shop as well.

Richard Morsley: Buy a book. Yeah.

Paul Marden: Can we buy Lego? 

Richard Morsley:  Of course you can buy Lego. 

Paul Marden: So this is a this is a magnet. It is sucking the kids into you, but I bet you're seeing something amazing as they interpret the world that they've seen around them at the museum in the Lego that they can play with.

Richard Morsley: Of some of some of the models that are created off the back of the exhibition by these children is remind and adults actually, but mainly, mainly the families are amazing, but and you feel awful at the end of the day to painstakingly take them apart.

Richard Morsley: Where is my model?

Dominic Jones: So we went to see it in the Vasa, which is where he stole the idea from. And I decided to, sneakily, when they were doing that, take a Charles model that was really good and remodel it to look like the Mary Rose, and then post a picture and say, I've just built the Mary Rose. I didn't build the Mary Rose. Some Swedish person bought the Mary Rose. I just added the flags. You get what you say. 

Hannah Prowse: We've been lucky enough to be working with the Lloyds register foundation this year, and we've had this brilliant she sees exhibition in boathouse four, which is rewriting women into maritime history. So the concept came from Lloyd's Register, which was, you know, the untold stories of women in maritime working with brilliant photographers and textile designers to tell their stories. And they approached me and said, "Can we bring this into the dockyard?" And we said, "Yes, but we'd really love to make it more local." And they were an amazing partner. And actually, what we have in boathouse for is this phenomenal exhibition telling the stories of the women here in the dockyard.

Richard Morsley: And then going back to that point about collaboration, not competition, that exhibition, then comes to Chatham from February next year, but telling, telling Chatham stories instead of. 

Hannah Prowse:  Yeah, Richard came to see it here and has gone, "Oh, I love what you've done with this. Okay, we can we can enhance, we can twist it." So, you know, I've hoped he's going to take our ideas and what we do with Lloyd's and make it a million times better.

Richard Morsley: It's going to be an amazing space.

Dominic Jones: Richard just looks at LinkedIn and gets everyone's ideas.

Andrew Baines: I think one of the exciting things is those collaborations that people will be surprised by as well. So this summer, once you've obviously come to Portsmouth Historic Dockyard and experience the joys of that, and then you've called off on Chatham and another day to see what they've got there, you can go off to London Zoo, and we are working in partnership with London Zoo, and we have a colony of Death Watch beetle on display. 

Paul Marden:  Oh, wonderful. I mean, can you actually hear them? 

Dominic Jones: Not necessarily the most exciting.

Andrew Baines: I'll grant you. But you know, we've got a Chelsea gold medal on in the National Museum of the Royal Navy for collaboration with the Woodlands Foundation, looking at Sudden Oak death. And we've got an exhibition with ZSL at London Zoo, which I don't think anybody comes to a National Maritime Museum or an NMRN National Museum The Royal Navy, or PHQ, PhD, and expects to bump into tiny little animals, no, but

Dominic Jones: I love that, and it's such an important story, the story of Victor. I mean, look, you're both of you, because Matthew's involved with Victor as well. Your victory preservation and what you're doing is incredible. And the fact you can tell that story, it's LSL, I love that.

Andrew Baines: Yeah. And we're actually able to feed back into the sector. And one of the nice things is, we know we talk about working collaboratively, but if you look at the victory project, for example, our project conservator came down the road from Chatham, equally, which you one of.

Richard Morsley: Our your collections manager.

Paul Marden: So it's a small pool and you're recycling.

Andrew Baines: Progression and being people in develop and feed them on.

Matthew Tanner:  The open mindedness, yeah, taking and connecting from all over, all over the world, when I was working with for the SS Great Britain, which is the preserved, we know, great iron steam chip, preserved as as he saw her, preserved in a very, very dry environment. We'll take technology for that we found in the Netherlands in a certain seeds factory where they had to, they had to package up their seeds in very, very low humidity environments.

Paul Marden:  Yes, otherwise you're gonna get some sprouting going on. 

Matthew Tanner:   Exactly. That's right. And that's the technology, which we then borrowed to preserve a great historic ship. 

Paul Marden: I love that. 

Dominic Jones:  And SS Great Britain is amazing, by the way you did such a good job there. It's one of my favourite places to visit. So I love that.

Paul Marden:  I've got a confession to make. I'm a Somerset boy, and I've never been.

Dominic Jones: Have you been to yoga list? Oh yeah, yeah. I was gonna say.

Paul Marden: Yeah. I am meeting Sam Mullins at the SS Great Britain next next week for our final episode of the season. 

Matthew Tanner: There you go.

Dominic Jones: And you could go to the where they made the sale. What's the old court canvas or Corker Canvas is out there as well. There's so many amazing places down that neck of the woods. It's so good.

Paul Marden: Quick segue. Let's talk. Let's step away from collaboration, or only very lightly, highlights of today, what was your highlight talk or thing that you've seen?

Richard Morsley: I think for me, it really was that focus on community and engagement in our places and the importance of our institutions in the places that we're working. So the highlight, absolutely, for me, opening this morning was the children's choir as a result of the community work that the Mary Rose trust have been leading, working.

Dominic Jones:  Working. So good. 

Richard Morsley: Yeah, fabulous. 

Paul Marden:  Absolutely. 

Matthew Tanner: There's an important point here about about historic ships which sometimes get kind of positioned or landed by developers alongside in some ports, as if that would decorate a landscape. Ships actually have places. Yes, they are about they are connected to the land. They're not just ephemeral. So each of these ships that are here in Portsmouth and the others we've talked about actually have roots in their home ports and the people and the communities that they served. They may well have roots 1000s of miles across the ocean as well, makes them so exciting, but it's a sense of place for a ship. 

Hannah Prowse: So I think that all of the speakers were obviously phenomenal.

Dominic Jones: And including yourself, you were very good.

Hannah Prowse: Thank you. But for me, this is a slightly random one, but I always love seeing a group of people coming in and watching how they move in the space. I love seeing how people interact with the buildings, with the liminal spaces, and where they have where they run headlong into something, where they have threshold anxiety. So when you have a condensed group of people, it's something like the AIM Conference, and then they have points that they have to move around to for the breakout sessions. But then watching where their eyes are drawn, watching where they choose to go, and watching how people interact with the heritage environment I find really fascinating. 

Paul Marden: Is it like flocks of birds? What are moving around in a space? 

Hannah Prowse: Exactly. Yeah.

Paul Marden: I say, this morning, when I arrived, I immediately joined a queue. I had no idea what the queue was, and I stood there for two minutes.

Dominic Jones: I love people in the joint queues, we normally try and sell you things.

Paul Marden: The person in front of me, and I said, "What we actually queuing for?" Oh, it's the coffee table. Oh, I don't need coffee. See you later. Yes.

Dominic Jones: So your favourite bit was the queue. 

Paul Marden: My favourite..

Dominic Jones: That's because you're gonna plug Skip the Queue. I love it.

Dominic Jones: My favourite moment was how you divided the conference on a generational boundary by talking about Kojak.

Dominic Jones: Kojak? Yes, it was a gamble, because it was an old film, and I'll tell you where I saw it. I saw it on TV, and the Mary Rose have got it in their archives. So I said, Is there any way I could get this to introduce me? And they all thought I was crazy, but I think it worked. But my favorite bit, actually, was just after that, when we were standing up there and welcoming everyone to the conference. Because for four years, we've been talking about doing this for three years. We've been arranging it for two years. It was actually real, and then the last year has been really scary. So for us to actually pull it off with our partners, with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, with Portsmouth Historic quarter, with all of our friends here, was probably the proudest moment for me. So for me, I loved it. And I'm not going to lie, when the children were singing, I was a little bit emotional, because I was thinking, this is actually happened. This is happening. So I love that, and I love tonight. Tonight's going to be amazing. Skip the queue outside Dive, the Mary Rose 4d come and visit. He won't edit that out. He won't edit that out. He can't keep editing Dive, The Mary Rose.

Dominic Jones: Andrew, what's his favourite? 

Andrew Baines: Oh yes. Well, I think it was the kids this morning, just for that reminder when you're in the midst of budgets and visitor figures and ticket income and development agreements, and why is my ship falling apart quicker than I thought it was going to fall apart and all those kind of things actually just taking that brief moment to see such joy and enthusiasm for the next generation. Yeah, here directly connected to our collections and that we are both, PHQ, NRN supported, MRT, thank you both really just a lovely, lovely moment.

Paul Marden: 30 kids singing a song that they had composed, and then backflip.

Dominic Jones: It was a last minute thing I had to ask Jason. Said, Jason, can you stand to make sure I don't get hit? That's why I didn't want to get hit, because I've got a precious face. 

Hannah Prowse: I didn't think the ship fell apart was one of the official parts of the marketing campaign.

Paul Marden: So I've got one more question before we do need to wrap up, who of your teams have filled in the Rubber Cheese Website Survey. 

Dominic Jones: We, as Mary Rose and Ellen, do it jointly as Portsmouth historic document. We've done it for years. We were an early adopter. Of course, we sponsored it. We even launched it one year. And we love it. And actually, we've used it in our marketing data to improve loads of things. So since that came out, we've made loads of changes. We've reduced the number of clicks we've done a load of optimum website optimisation. It's the best survey for visitor attractions. I feel like I shouldn't be shouting out all your stuff, because that's all I do, but it is the best survey.

Paul Marden: I set you up and then you just ran so we've got hundreds of people arriving for this evening's event. We do need to wrap this up. I want one last thing, which is, always, we have a recommendation, a book recommendation from Nepal, and the first person to retweet the message on Bluesky will be offered, of course, a copy of the book. Does anyone have a book that they would like to plug of their own or, of course, a work or fiction that they'd like to recommend for the audience.

Paul Marden: And we're all looking at you, Matthew.

Dominic Jones: Yeah. Matthew is the book, man you're gonna recommend. You're

Andrew Baines: The maritime.

Paul Marden: We could be absolutely that would be wonderful.

Matthew Tanner: Two of them jump into my mind, one bit more difficult to read than the other, but the more difficult to read. One is Richard Henry. Dana D, a n, a, an American who served before the mast in the 19th century as an ordinary seaman on a trading ship around the world and wrote a detailed diary. It's called 10 years before the mast. And it's so authentic in terms of what it was really like to be a sailor going around Cape corn in those days. But the one that's that might be an easier gift is Eric Newby, the last great grain race, which was just before the Second World War, a journalist who served on board one of the last great Windjammers, carrying grain from Australia back to Europe and documenting his experience higher loft in Gales get 17 knots in his these giant ships, absolute white knuckle rides. 

Paul Marden: Perfect, perfect. Well, listeners, if you'd like a copy of Matthew's book recommendation, get over to blue sky. Retweet the post that Wenalyn will put out for us. I think the last thing that we really need to do is say cheers and get on with the rest of the year. 

Richard Morsley: Thank you very much. 

Andrew Baines: Thank you.

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm. 

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

We have launched our brand-new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide to Going Beyond the Gift Shop’ — your go-to resource for building a successful e-commerce strategy that connects with your audience and drives sustainable growth.

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Andy Povey.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us.

Show references: 

Anna Preedy, Director M+H Show

• https://show.museumsandheritage.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/annapreedy/

Jon Horsfield, CRO at Centegra, a Cinchio Solutions Partner

• https://cinchio.com/uk/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-horsfield-957b3a4/

Dom Jones, CEO, Mary Rose Trust 

• https://maryrose.org/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/
• https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jones

Paul Woolf, Trustee at Mary Rose Trust

• https://maryrose.org/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-woolf/

Stephen Spencer, Ambience Director, Stephen Spencer + Associates

• https://www.stephenspencerassociates.com/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/customerexperiencespecialist/
• https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/stephen-spencer

Sarah Bagg, Founder, ReWork Consulting

• https://reworkconsulting.co.uk/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbagg/
• https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/sarah-bagg

Jeremy Mitchell, Chair of Petersfield Museum and Art Gallery

• https://www.petersfieldmuseum.co.uk/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-mitchell-frsa-4529b95/

Rachel Kuhn, Associate Director, BOP Consulting

• https://www.bop.co.uk/
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/kuhnrachel/

Transcriptions:

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. You join me today, out and about yet again. This time I am in London at Olympia for the Museums and Heritage Show. Hotly anticipated event in everybody's diary. We all look forward to it. Two days of talks and exhibitions and workshops. Just a whole lot of networking and fun. And of course, we've got the M and H awards as well. 

So in this episode, I am going to be joined by a number of different people from across the sector, museum and cultural institution professionals, we've got some consultants, we've got some suppliers to the industry, all pretty much giving us their take on what they've seen, what they're doing and what their thoughts are for the year ahead. So, without further ado, let's meet our first guest. 

Andy Povey: Hi, Anna. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Thank you for giving us some of your time on what must be a massively busy day for you. I wonder if you could just tell the audience who you are, what you do, a little bit about what museums and heritage is, because not everyone listening to the podcast comes from the museum sector. 

Anna Preedy: Andy, thanks. This is a great opportunity and always really lovely to see your happy smiley face at the Museums and Heritage Show. So M and H, as we're often referred to as, stands for Museums and Heritage and we're a small business that organises the principal trade exhibition for the Museums and Heritage sector that could be broadened, I suppose, into the cultural sector. We also have the awards ceremony for the sector and an online magazine. So we are Museums and Heritage, but we're often referred to as M and H and we've been around for a very long time, 30 plus years. 

Andy Povey: Oh, my word. 

Anna Preedy: I know. 

Andy Povey: And what's your role within the organisation? Your badge says Event Director today. That's one of many hats. 

Anna Preedy: I'm sure it is one of many hats because we're a very small team. So I own and manage the events, if you like. M and H is my baby. I've been doing it for a very long time. I feel like I'm truly immersed in the world of museums and heritage and would like to think that as a result of that, I kind of understand and appreciate some of the issues and then bring everyone together to actually get in the same room and to talk them through at the show. So, yeah, that's what we're about, really. 

Andy Povey: In a shorthand and obviously the show. We're in the middle of West London. It's a beautifully sunny day here at Olympia. The show is the culmination, I suppose of 12 months of work. So what actually goes in? What does a normal day look like for you on any month other than May? 

Anna Preedy: Yeah, it was funny actually. Sometimes people, I think, well, what do you do for the rest of the year? You just turn up to London for a couple of days, just turn up delivering an event like this. And also our award scheme is literally three, six, five days of the year job. So the moment we leave Olympia in London, we're already planning the next event. So it really is all encompassing. So I get involved in a lot. As I say, we're a small team, so I'm the person that tends to do most of the programming for the show. So we have 70 free talks. Everything at the show is free to attend, is free to visit. So we have an extensive programme of talks. We have about 170 exhibitors. 

Anna Preedy: So I'm, although I have a sales team for that, I'm managing them and looking after that and working with some of those exhibitors and then I'm very much involved in our awards. So the Museums and Heritage Awards look to celebrate and reward the very best in our sector and shine the spotlight on that not just in the UK but around the world. So we have a judging panel and I coordinate that. So pretty much every decision, I mean you look at the colour of the carpet, that which incidentally is bright pink, you look at the colour of the carpet here, who made the decision what colour it would be in the aisles this year it was me. So I, you know, I do get heavily involved in all the nitty gritty as well as the biggest strategic decisions. 

Andy Povey: Fantastic. Here on the show floor today it is really busy, there are an awful lot of people there. So this is all testament to everything that you've done to make this the success that it is. I'm sure that every exhibitor is going to walk away with maybe not a full order book, but definitely a fistful of business cards. 

Anna Preedy: I think that's it, what we really want. And we sort of build this event as the big catch up and we do that for a reason. And that is really to kind of give two days of the year people put those in their diary. It's a space where people can come together. So you know, there'll be people here standing on stands who obviously and understandably want to promote their product or service and are looking to generate new business. And then our visitors are looking for those services and enjoying the talks and everyone comes together and it's an opportunity to learn and network and connect and to do business in the broadest possible sense. Really. 

Andy Povey: No, I think that the line, the big catch up really sums the show up for me. I've been. I think I worked out on the way in this morning. It's the 15th time I've been to the show. It's one of my favourite in the year because it is a fantastic mix of the curatorial, the commercial, everything that goes into running a successful museum or heritage venue. 

Anna Preedy: I mean, it's funny when people ask me to summarise. I mean, for a start, it's quite difficult. You know, really, it should be museums, galleries, heritage, visitor, attractions, culture. You know, it is a very diverse sector and if you think about everything that goes into making a museum or a gallery or a historic house function, operate, engage, it's as diverse as the organisational types are themselves and we try and bring all of that together. So, you know, whether you are the person that's responsible for generating income in your organisation, and perhaps that might be retail or it might be catering, it could be any. Any stream of income generation, there's going to be content for you here just as much as there's going to be content for you here. 

Anna Preedy: If you are head of exhibitions or if you are perhaps wearing the marketing hat and actually your job is, you know, communications or audience development, we try and represent the sector in its broadest scope. So there is something for everyone, quite. 

Andy Povey: Literally, and that's apparent just from looking on the show floor. So with all of your experience in the museum sector, and I suppose you get to see. See quite an awful lot of new stuff, new products. So what are you anticipating happening in the next sort of 6 to 12 months in our sector? 

Anna Preedy: I mean, that's a big question because, you know, going back to what were just saying, and the kind of different verticals, if you like, that sit within the sector, but I think the obvious one probably has to be AI, and the influence of that. I'm not saying that's going to change everything overnight. It won't, but it's. You can see the ripples already and you can see that reflected out here on the exhibition floor with exhibitors, and you can also see it in our programme. So this sort of AI is only, you know, one aspect of, you know, the bigger, wider digital story. But I just think it's probably more about the sector evolving than it is about, you know, grand sweeping changes in any one direction. 

Anna Preedy: But the other thing to say, of course, is that as funding gets more the sort of the economic landscape, you know, is tough. Undeniably so. So generating revenue and finding new ways to do that and prioritising it within your organisation, but not at the expense of everything else that's done. And it should never be at the expense of everything else that's done. And it's perfectly possible to do both. Nobody's suggesting that it's easy, nothing's easy but, you know, it's possible. 

Anna Preedy: And I think the show here, and also what we do online in terms of, you know, news and features, all of that, and what other organisations are doing in this sector, of course, and the partners we work with, but I think just helping kind of bridge that gap really, and to provide solutions and to provide inspiration and actually, you know, there's no need to reinvent the wheel constantly. Actually, I think it was somebody that worked in the sector. I'm reluctant to names, but there was somebody I remember once saying, well, know, stealing with glee is kind of, you know, and I think actually, you know, if you see somebody else is doing something great and actually we see that in our wards, you know, that's the whole point. Let's shine a spotlight on good work. Well, that might inspire someone else. 

Anna Preedy: It's not about ripping something off and it's not absolute replication. But actually, you know, scalable changes in your organisation that may have been inspired by somebody else's is only a good thing as well. 

Andy Povey: It's all that evolutionary process, isn't it? So, great experience. Thank you on behalf of everybody that's come to the show today. 

Anna Preedy: Well, thank you very much. I love doing it, I really genuinely do and there is nothing like the buzz of a busy event. 

Jon Horsfield: Yeah, My name is Jon Horsfield, I'm the Chief Revenue Officer of Cincio Solutions. 

Andy Povey: And what does Cincio do? 

Jon Horsfield: We provide F and B technology, so kiosks, point of sale payments, kitchen systems, inventory, self checkout to the museums, heritage zoos, aquariums and hospitality industries. 

Andy Povey: Oh, fantastic. So I understand this is your first time here at the Museums and Heritage Show. 

Jon Horsfield: It is our first time. It's been an interesting learning curve. 

Andy Povey: Tell me more. 

Jon Horsfield: Well, our background is very much within the hospitality. We've been operating for about 20 to 23 years within the sort of high street hospitality side of things. Some of our London based listeners may have heard of Leon Restaurants or Coco Di Mama, we've been working with them for over 20 years. But we're looking at ways of bringing that high street technology into other industries and other Verticals and the museums and heritage is a vertical that we've identified as somewhere that could probably do with coming into the 21st century with some of the technology solutions available. 

Andy Povey: I hear what you're saying. So what do you think of the show? What are your first impressions? Give me your top three tips. Learning points. 

Jon Horsfield: Firstly, this industry takes a long time to get to know people. It seems to be long lead times. That's the first learning that we've had. Our traditional industry in hospitality, people will buy in this industry. It's going to take some time and we're happy about that. We understand that. So for us, this is about learning about know about how the industry works. Everybody's really friendly. 

Andy Povey: We try. Yeah. 

Jon Horsfield: That's one of the first things that we found out with this. This industry is everybody is really friendly and that's quite nice. Even some of our competitors, we're having nice conversations with people. Everybody is really lovely. The third point is the fact that I didn't know that there were so many niche markets and I found out where my mother buys her scarves and Christmas presents from. So it's been really interesting seeing the different types of things that people are looking for. We've sort of noticed that it's really about preservation. That's one of the main areas. There's a lot of things about preservation. Another one is about the display, how things are being displayed, and lots of innovative ways of doing that. But also the bit that we're really interested in is the commercialization. 

Jon Horsfield: There's a real push within the industry to start to commercialise things and bring in more revenue from the same people. 

Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's all about securing the destiny so that you're not reliant on funding from external parties or government and you taking that control. So what do you do at Centrio that helps? 

Jon Horsfield: Well, first of all. First of all, I would say the efficiencies that we can bring with back office systems integrations. We're very well aware of what we do, we're also aware of what we don't do. So, for example, we're not a ticketing provider, we're a specialist retail and F and B supplier. So it's about building those relationships and actually integrating. We've got a lot of integrations available and we're very open to that. So that's the first thing. But one of the key things that we're trying to bring to this industry is the way that you can use technology to increase revenue. So the kiosks that we've got here, it's proven that you'll get a minimum average transaction value increase of 10 to 15%. 

Andy Povey: And what do you put that down to? 

Jon Horsfield: The ability to upsell. Okay, with kiosks, as long as, if you put, for example, with a burger, if you just have a nice little button, say would you like the bacon fries with that? It's an extra few pounds. Well, actually if you've got an extra few pounds on every single transaction, that makes an incredible difference to the bottom line. From the same number of customers. Some of our clients over in the USA have seen an ATV increase above to 60% with the use of kiosks. 

Andy Povey: And that's just through selling additional fries. 

Jon Horsfield: Exactly. People will. I went to a talk many years ago when people started to adopt kiosks and the traditional thing is the fact that people will order two Big Macs and a fries to a kiosk, but when you go face to face, they will not order two Big Macs and a fries. 

Andy Povey: So you're saying I'm a shy fatty who's basically. 

Jon Horsfield: Absolutely not. Absolutely not, Andy. Absolutely not. So that's really what it's about. It's about using the sort of the high street technology and applying that to a different industry and trying to bring everybody along with us. 

Dominic Jones: And you need to listen to the Skip the Queue. It's the best podcast series ever. It'll give you this industry. 

Paul Marden: Perfect. That was a lovely little sound bite. Dom, welcome. 

Dominic Jones: It's the truth. It's the truth. I love Skip the Queue. 

Paul Marden: Welcome back to Skip the Queue. Paul, welcome. For your first time, let's just start with a quick introduction. Dom, tell everybody about yourself. 

Dominic Jones: So I'm Dominic Jones, I'm the chief executive of the Mary Rose Trust and I'm probably one of Skip the Queue's biggest fans. 

Paul Marden: I love it. And biggest stars. 

Dominic Jones: Well, I don't know. At one point I was number one. 

Paul Marden: And Paul, what about yourself? What's your world? 

Paul Woolf: Well, I'm Paul Woolf, I've just joined the Mary Rose as a trustee. Dom's been kind of hunting me down politely for a little bit of time. When he found out that I left the King's Theatre, he was very kind and said, right, you know, now you've got time on your hands, you know, would you come over and help? So yeah, so my role is to support Dom and to just help zhuzh things up a bit, which is kind of what I do and just bring some new insights into the business and to develop It a bit. And look at the brand, which is where my skills. 

Dominic Jones: Paul is underselling himself. He is incredible. And the Mary Rose Trust is amazing. You haven't visited. You should visit. We're in Portsmouth Historic Dock blog. But what's great about it is it's about attracting great people. I'm a trustee, so I'm a trustee for good whites. I'm a trustee for pomp in the community. I know you're a trustee for kids in museums. I love your posts and the fact that you come visit us, but it's about getting the right team and the right people and Paul has single handedly made such a difference to performance art in the country, but also in Portsmouth and before that had a massive career in the entertainment. So we're getting a talent. It's like getting a Premiership player. And we got Paul Woolf so I am delighted. 

Dominic Jones: And we brought him here to the Museum Heritage show to say this is our industry because we want him to get sucked into it because he is going to be incredible. You honestly, you'll have a whole episode on him one day. 

Paul Marden: And this is the place to come, isn't it? Such a buzz about the place. 

Paul Woolf: I've gone red. I've gone red. Embarrassed. 

Paul Marden: So have you seen some talks already? What's been impressive for you so far, Paul? 

Paul Woolf: Well, we did actually with the first talk we were listening to was all about touring and reducing your environmental impact on touring, which is quite interesting. And what I said there was that, you know, as time gone by and we had this a little bit at theatre actually. But if you want to go for grant funding today, the first question on the grant funding form, almost the first question after the company name and how much money you want is environmental impact. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. 

Paul Woolf: And so if you're going tour and we're looking now, you know, one of the things that Dom and I have been talking about is, you know, Mary Rose is brilliant. It's fantastic. You know, it's great. It's in the dockyard in Portsmouth and you know, so. And, and the Andes, New York, you know, everywhere. 

Dominic Jones: Take her on tour. 

Paul Woolf: Why isn't it on tour? Yeah. Now I know there are issues around on tour. You know, we've got the collections team going. Yeah, don't touch. But nonetheless it was interesting listening to that because obviously you've got to. Now you can't do that. You can't just put in a lorry, send it off and. And so I thought that was quite interesting. 

Dominic Jones: Two, it's all the industry coming together. It's not about status. You can come here as a student or as a CEO and you're all welcome. In fact, I introduced Kelly from Rubber Cheese, your company, into Andy Povey and now you guys have a business together. And I introduced them here in this spot outside the men's toilets at Museum and Heritage. 

Paul Woolf: Which is where we're standing, by the way. Everybody, we're outside the toilet. 

Dominic Jones: It's the networking, it's the talks. And we're about to see Bernard from ALVA in a minute, who'll be brilliant. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Dominic Jones: But all of these talks inspire you and then the conversations and just seeing you Andy today, I'm so delighted. And Skip the Queue. He's going from strength to strength. I love the new format. I love how you're taking it on tour. You need to bring it to the May Rose next. Right. 

Paul Marden: I think we might be coming sometimes soon for a conference near you. 

Dominic Jones: What? The Association of Independent Museums? 

Paul Marden: You might be doing an AIM conference with you. 

Dominic Jones: Excellent. 

Paul Marden: Look, guys, it's been lovely to talk to you. Enjoy the rest of your day here at M and H. 

Paul Marden: Stephen, welcome back to Skip the Queue. 

Stephen Spencer: Thank you very much. 

Paul Marden: For listeners, remind them what you do. 

Stephen Spencer: So I'm Stephen Spencer. My company, Stephen Spencer Associates, we call ourselves the Ambience Architects because we try to help every organisation gain deeper insight into the visitor experience as it's actually experienced by the visitor. I know it sounds a crazy idea, really, to achieve better impact and engagement from visitors and then ultimately better sustainability in all senses for the organisation. 

Paul Marden: For listeners, the Ambience Lounge here at M and H is absolutely rammed at the moment. 

Stephen Spencer: I'm trying to get in myself. 

Paul Marden: I know, it's amazing. So what are you hoping for this networking lounge? 

Stephen Spencer: Well, what we're aiming to do is create a space for quality conversations, for people to meet friends and contacts old and new, to discover new technologies, new ideas or just really to come and have a sounding board. So we're offering free one to one advice clinic. 

Paul Marden: Oh, really? 

Stephen Spencer: Across a whole range of aspects of the visitor journey, from core mission to revenue generation and storytelling. Because I think, you know, one of the things we see most powerfully being exploited by the successful organisations is that kind of narrative thread that runs through the whole thing. What am I about? Why is that important? Why should you support me? How do I deliver that and more of it in every interaction? 

Paul Marden: So you're Having those sorts of conversations here with people on a one to one basis. 

Stephen Spencer: Then we also are hosting the structured networking event. So all of the sector support organisations that are here, they have scheduled networking events when really people can just come and meet their peers and swap experiences and again find new people to lean on and be part of an enriched network. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. So we are only half a day in, not even quite half a day into a two day programme. So it's very early to say, but exciting conversations, things are going in the direction that you hoped for. 

Stephen Spencer: Yes, I think, I mean, we know that the sector is really challenged at the moment, really, the fact that we're in now such a crazy world of total constant disruption and uncertainty. But equally we offer something that is reassuring, that is enriching, it's life enhancing. We just need to find better ways to, to do that and reach audiences and reach new audiences and just keep them coming back. And the conversations that I've heard so far have been very much around that. So it's very exciting. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. One of themes of this episode that we'll be talking to lots of people about is a little bit of crystal ball gazing. You're right, the world is a hugely, massively disrupted place at the moment. But what do you see the next six or 12 months looking like and then what does it look like for the sector in maybe a five year time horizon? 

Stephen Spencer: Okay, well, you don't ask easy questions. So I think there will be a bit of a kind of shaking down in what we understand to be the right uses of digital technology, AI. I think we see all the mistakes that were made with social media and what it's literally done to the world. And whilst there are always examples of, let's say, museums using social media very cleverly and intelligently, we know that's against the backdrop of a lot of negativity and harm. So why would we want to repeat that, for example, with generative AI? 

Paul Marden: Indeed. 

Stephen Spencer: So I heard a talk about two years ago at the VAT conference about using AI to help the visitor to do the stuff that is difficult for them to do. In other words, to help them build an itinerary that is right for them. And I think until everyone is doing that, then they should be very wary of stepping off the carpet to try and do other things with it. Meanwhile, whilst it's an immersive experience, it is not just sitting in, you know, with all respect to those that do this, A, you know, surround sound visual box, it is actually what it's always been, which is meeting real people in authentic spaces and places, you know, using all the senses to tell stories. So I think we will need to see. 

Stephen Spencer: I've just been given a great coffee because that's the other thing we're offering in the coffee. It's good coffee. Not saying you can't get anywhere else in the show, just saying it's good here. Yeah. I think just some realism and common sense creeping into what we really should be using these technologies for and not leaving our visitors behind. I mean, for example, you know, a huge amount of the natural audience for the cultural sector. You know, people might not want to hear it, but we all know it's true. It's older people. And they aren't necessarily wanting to have to become digital natives to consume culture. So we shouldn't just say, you know, basically, unless you'll download our app, unless you'll do everything online, you're just going to be left behind. That's crazy. It doesn't make good business sense and it's not right. 

Stephen Spencer: So I just think some common sense and some. Maybe some regulation that will happen around uses of AI that might help and also, you know, around digital harms and just getting back to some basics. I was talking to a very old colleague earlier today who had just come back from a family holiday to Disney World, and he said, you know, you can't beat it, you cannot beat it. For that is immersive. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. But it's not sealed in a box. 

Stephen Spencer: No, no. And it really. It's a bit like Selfridges. I always took out. My favourite store is Selfridges. It still does what Harry Gordon Selfridge set out to do. He said, "Excite the mind and the hand will reach for the pocket." I always say. He didn't say excite the eye, he said, excite the mind. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Stephen Spencer: The way you do that is through all the senses. 

Paul Marden: Amazing. 

Stephen Spencer: And so, you know, digital. I'm sure he'd be embracing that. He would be saying, what about the rest of it? 

Paul Marden: How do you add the human touch to that? Yeah. I was at Big Pit last week. 

Stephen Spencer: As they reopened, to see this. Yeah. 

Paul Marden: And it was such an amazing experience walking through that gift shop. They have so subtly brought the museum into the gift shop and blended the two really well. 

Stephen Spencer: Yes. And I think that raises the bar. And again, if you want to make more money as a museum, you need to be embracing that kind of approach, because if you just carry on doing what you've always done, your revenue will go down. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Stephen Spencer: And we all know your revenue needs to go up because other. Other sources of income will be going down. 

Paul Marden: Sarah, welcome back to Skip the Queue last time you were here, there was a much better looking presenter than, you were in the Kelly era. 

Sarah Bagg: Yes, we were. 

Paul Marden: It's almost as if there was a demarcation line before Kelly and after Kelly. Why don't you just introduce yourself for me? Tell the listeners what it is that you do. 

Sarah Bagg: So I'm Sarah Bagg. I'm the founder of Rework Consulting. The last time I spoke, it wasn't that long after our launch. I think like two and a half years ago. We've just had our third birthday. 

Paul Marden: Wow. 

Sarah Bagg: Which is completely incredible. When we first launched rework, were specifically for the visitor attractions industry and focused on ticketing. 

Paul Marden: Yep. 

Sarah Bagg: So obviously we are a tech ticketing consultancy business. In the last three and a half years we've grown and now have five verticals. So attractions are one of them. 

Paul Marden: And who else do you work with then? 

Sarah Bagg: So the art, the leisure industry. So whether it be activity centres, cinemas, bowling centres and then live entertainment. So it could be anything from sports, festivals etc and the arts, like theatres or. 

Paul Marden: So closely aligned to your attractions. Then things that people go and do but different kinds of things loosely. 

Sarah Bagg: Say they're like live entertainment. 

Paul Marden: I like that. That's a nice description. So this must be Mecca for you to have all of these people brought together telling amazing stories. 

Sarah Bagg: I think how I would sum up museum and heritage today is that I think we're kind of going through a period of like being transformed, almost like back. People are reconstructing, connecting with real experiences and with people. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Sarah Bagg: And I would like to think that tech is invisible and they're just to support the experience. I think there's a lot of things that are going on at the moment around, you know, bit nostalgia and people dragging themselves back to the 90s. And there's a lot of conversations about people and customer service and experience. And although technology plays a huge part in that, I would still like to think that people come first and foremost, always slightly weird from a technology consultant. 

Paul Marden: Well, nobody goes to a visitor attraction to be there on their own and interact with technology. That's not the point of being there. Yeah. Interesting talks that you've been today. 

Sarah Bagg: I think one of my favourite was actually one of the first of the day, which was about. Of how do you enhance the visitor experience through either like music and your emotions and really tapping into how you feel through, like all your different senses. Which was one of Stephen's talks which I really enjoyed. 

Paul Marden: That's really interesting. 

Sarah Bagg: I think if people like look at the visitor industry and across the board, that's why I'm so keen to stay, like across four different sectors, we can learn so much pulling ideas from like hospitality and restaurants and bars.

Paul Marden: Completely. 

Sarah Bagg: Even if you think about like your best, there's a new bar there, so you can not very far from my home in Brighton and the service is an amazing. And the design of the space really caters for whether you're in there with 10 people or whether you're sat at the bar on your own. It doesn't exclude people, depending on what age you are or why you gone into the bar. And I think we can learn a lot in the visitor attractions industry because there's been a lot of talk about families today. I don't have children and I think that there, you need. 

Sarah Bagg: We need to think more about actually that lots of other people go to visitor attractions 

Paul Marden: Completely. 

Sarah Bagg: And they don't necessarily take children and they might want to go on their own. Yes, but what are we doing to cater for all of those people? There's nothing. 

Paul Marden: How do you make them feel welcome? How do you make them feel like they're a first class guest? The same as everybody else. Yeah. So where do you see the sector going over the next few years based on what you've seen today? 

Sarah Bagg: I think there'll be a lot more diversification between sectors. There's definitely a trend where people have got their assets. You know, like if you're looking at things like safari parks and zoos, places that have already got accommodation, but maybe like stately houses where there used to be workers that were living in those cottages or whatever, that they're sweating their assets. I think it would be interesting to see where tech takes us with that because there has been a tradition in the past that if you've got like, if your number one priority to sell is being like your hotel, then you would have like a PMS solution. But if it's the other way around, your number one priority is the attraction or the venue and you happen to have some accommodation, then how is that connecting to your online journey? 

Sarah Bagg: Because the last thing you want is like somebody having to do two separate transactions. 

Paul Marden: Oh, completely drives me crazy. 

Sarah Bagg: One thing I would also love to see is attractions thinking beyond their 10 till 6 opening hours completely. Because some days, like restaurants, I've seen it, you know, maybe they now close on Mondays and Tuesdays so they can give their staff a day off and they have different opening hours. Why are attractions still fixated in like keeping these standard opening hours? Because actually you might attract a completely different audience. There used to be a bit of a trend for like doing museum late. So I was speaking to a museum not very long ago about, you know, do they do like morning tours, like behind the scenes, kind of before it even opens. And I think the museum particularly said to me, like, "Oh, we're fine as we are.". 

Paul Marden: I've never met a museum that feels fine where it is at the moment. 

Sarah Bagg: But I guess the one thing I would love to see if I could sprinkle my fairy dus. 

Paul Marden: Come the revolution and you're in charge. 

Sarah Bagg: And it's not like, it's not even like rocket science, it's more investment into training and staff because the people that work in our industry are like the gold, you know, it's not tech, it's not pretty set works, it's not like fancy display cases. Yes, the artefacts and stuff are amazing. 

Paul Marden: But the stories, the people stuff. Yeah. 

Sarah Bagg: Give them empowerment and training and make the customer feel special. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Sarah Bagg: When you leave, like you've had that experience, you're only ever going to get that from through the people that you interact with completely. 

Paul Marden: Jeremy, hello. Welcome to Skip the Queue. We are, we are being slightly distracted by a dinosaur walking behind us. Such is life at M and H show. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah. 

Paul Marden: So. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Well, anything to do with museums and dinosaurs, always great crowd pleasers. 

Paul Marden: Exactly, exactly. So is this your first time at M and H or have you been before? 

Jeremy Mitchell: Been before, but probably not for 10 years or more. It was, yes. I remember last time I came the theatres were enclosed so they were partitioned all the way around. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Jeremy Mitchell: But because it's so popular now that would not just not would not work. It's a long time ago. It shows how long I've been volunteering. 

Paul Marden: In museums, doesn't it? So for our listeners, Jeremy, just introduce yourself and tell everyone about the role that you've got at the Petersfield Museum. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Okay, so I'm Jeremy Mitchell. I'm a trustee at Petersfield Museum now Petersfield Museum and Art Gallery. I'm actually now chair of trustees. 

Paul Marden: Paint a little picture for us of Petersfield Museum then. What could someone expect if they came to you? Apart from, as I understand, a very good cup of coffee. 

Jeremy Mitchell: A very good cup of coffee. Best in Petersfield. And that's not bad when there are 32 competitors. You'll get a little bit of everything you'll get a bit of. You'll get the story of Petersfield, but you'll get so much more. We've got collections of costume going back to the mid 18th century. We've got work of a local artist, Flora Torte, one of those forgotten female artists from between the wars. She's a story that we will be exploring. We've got, in partnership with the Edward Thomas Fellowship, a big archive of books and other artefacts by and about Edward Thomas, who was a poet, writer, literary critic. He's one of the poets killed in the First World War. But he's not well known as a war poet because he was writing about the impact of war on life at home. 

Jeremy Mitchell: So he's now more well known as a nature poet. 

Paul Marden: So you're telling the story not just of the place, you're telling the story of the people that have produced great art or had an impact on Petersfield. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. And their networks and how they might relate to Petersfield in turn. And we've got the costume collection I mentioned going back to the mid 18th century, which came from Bedale School. They've all got stories to them. 

Paul Marden: Interesting. 

Jeremy Mitchell: This came from Bedale School, which is a private school on the edge of Petersfield. It was actually collected by their drama teacher between the 1950s and the 1970s. 

Paul Marden: Wow. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Because she believed in authenticity. So if she was putting on a 19th century production, she would want genuine 19th century clothes. 

Paul Marden: Let me tell you, my drama productions in a 1980s comprehensive did not include authentic 19th century costumes. 

Jeremy Mitchell: If were doing something like that at school, their parents would have been, all right, go down to the jumble sale, buy some material, make something that looks something like it. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Jeremy Mitchell: But no, she was, well, if you haven't got anything in your attic that's suitable, please send me some money because there's a sale at Sotheby's in three months. Time off costume from the period. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. 

Jeremy Mitchell: And we've got some lovely pieces in there. When we put on the Peggy Guggenheim exhibition, which is what were talking about earlier today here, were able to bring in costume from the 1930s, Chanel dress, other high quality, not. Not necessarily worn by Peggy Guggenheim, but her. 

Paul Marden: Authentic of the period. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Authentic of the period. But her son was at Bedale, so she could have been asked to donate. 

Paul Marden: So. Okay. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Highly unlikely, but it was similar to items that she had been photographed in or would have been. Would have been wearing. 

Paul Marden: So tell me about the. The presentation. How was that? 

Jeremy Mitchell: It went so quickly. 

Paul Marden: Oh, yes. You get in the zone don't you? 

Jeremy Mitchell: You get in the zone. But it flowed and Louise was great. Louise had done the bulk of the. The work. She prepared the presentation that visually told the story of the exhibition and its outcomes and impacts. And I filled in the boring book, I call it the BBC, the boring but crucial. How we funded it, how we organised the project, management around it, the planning and getting buy in from the rest of the trustees at the beginning, because it was potentially a big financial commitment if we hadn't been able to fund it. 

Paul Marden: Isn't it interesting? So coming to an event like this is always. There's always so much to learn, it's always an enriching experience to come. But it's a great opportunity, isn't it, for a small museum and art gallery such as Petersfield? It feels a little bit like you're punching above your weight, doesn't it, to be invited onto this stage to talk about it. But really you're telling this amazing story and it's of interest to everybody that's here. 

Jeremy Mitchell: We want to share it. If we've been able to do it, then why can't they? Why can't you? Why can't we all do it? And yes, you need the story, but if you dig deep enough, those stories are there. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely, Absolutely. One of the things that is a real common conversation here, M and H, is looking forward, crystal ball gazing, talking. There's challenges in the sector, isn't there? There's lots of challenges around funding and I guess as a small museum, you must feel those choppy waters quite acutely. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Definitely. I mean, we're an independent museum, so we're not affected by spending cuts because we don't get any funding from that area. But the biggest challenge is from the funding perspective. Yes, we have a big income gap every year that we need to bridge. And now that so much more of the sector is losing what was its original core funding, they're all fishing in the same pond as us and they've got. Invariably they've got a fundraising team probably bigger than our entire museum team, let alone the volunteer fundraiser that we've got. So, yes, it is a challenge and you are having to run faster just to stand still. The ability to put on an exhibition like Peggy Guggenheim shows that we are worth it. 

Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. 

Jeremy Mitchell: And the Guggenheim was funded by Art Fund Western loan programme and an Arts Council project grant. And it was a large Arts Council project grant. 

Paul Marden: So although everyone's fishing in the same pond as you're managing to yeah. To stretch my analogy just a little bit too far, you are managing to. To get some grant funding and. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. 

Paul Marden: And lift some tiddlers out the pond. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Yes. But it was quite clear that with Peggy it was a story that had to be told. 

Paul Marden: So we talked a little bit about challenging times. But one of the big opportunities at M and H is to be inspired to think about where the opportunities are going forwards. You've had a day here today. What are you thinking as inspiration as next big things for Petersfield Museum. 

Jeremy Mitchell: I'm finding that really difficult because we're small, we're a small site, Arkansas, I think has got to be a way forward. I miss the talk. But they're all being recorded. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Jeremy Mitchell: So I shall be picking that one up with interest. But AR is something. We've got police cells. Well, we've got a police cell. 

Paul Marden: Okay. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Now, wouldn't it be great to tell an augmented reality story of Victorian justice to kids? 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Jeremy Mitchell: While they're sat in a victory in a Victorian police cell on a hard wooden bench. That is the original bench that this prisoners would have slept on. 

Paul Marden: I've done enough school visits to know there's enough kids that I could put in a jail just to keep them happy or to at least keep them quiet whilst the rest of us enjoy our visit. Yes. I feel like I need to come to Petersfield and talk more about Peggy because I think there might be an entire episode of Skip the Queue to talk just about putting on a big exhibition like that. 

Jeremy Mitchell: Yeah, no, definitely. If you drop me an email you can skip the queue and I'll take you around. 

Paul Marden: Oh lovely, Rachel, welcome to Skip the Queue. You join me here at M and H show. And we've taken over someone's stand, haven't we? I know, it feels a bit weird, doesn't it? 

Rachel Kuhn: I feel like we're squatting but I. 

Paul Marden: Feel a little bit like the Two Ronnies, cuz we're sat behind the desk. It's very strange. Which one are you? Anyway, just for listeners. Introduce yourself for me. Tell listeners what it is that you do at BOP Consulting. 

Rachel Kuhn: Yeah, so I'm Rachel Kuhn, I'm an associate director at BOP and we specialise in culture and the creative economy and kind of working across everything that is to do with culture and creative economy globally. But I lead most of our strategy and planning projects, particularly in the UK and Ireland, generally working with arts, heritage, cultural organisations, from the very earliest big picture strategy through to real nitty gritty sort of operational plans and outside of bop. I'm a trustee for Kids in Museums, where we love to hang, and also a new trustee with the Postal Museum. 

Paul Marden: Given what you do at bop, this must be like the highlight of the year for you to just soak up what everybody is doing. 

Rachel Kuhn: I love it. I mean, it's so lovely just going around, chatting to everybody, listening in on the talks and I think that spirit of generosity, you know, like, it just comes across, doesn't it? And it just reminds me why I love this sector, why I'm here. You know, everyone wants to, you know, contribute and it's that whole sort of spirit of what do they say? We know when the tide rises, so do all the boats or all the ships. And I feel like that's the spirit here and it's lovely. 

Paul Marden: It is such a happy place and it's such a busy, vibrant space, isn't it? What have been the standout things for you that you've seen today? 

Rachel Kuhn: I think probably on that spirit of generosity. Rosie Baker at the founding museum talking about the incredible work they've done with their events, hires, programmes. Obviously got to give a shout out to the Association of Cultural Enterprise. I've been doing a lot of hanging out there at their stage day. So Gurdon gave us the rundown of the benchmarking this morning. Some really good takeaways from that and Rachel Mackay, I mean, like, obviously. 

Paul Marden: Want to go into. 

Rachel Kuhn: You always want to see her. Really good fun, but lovely to hear. She's talking about her strategy, the Visitor Experience strategy. And you know what, I spend so much time going into places looking at these sub strategies, like visual experience strategies that just haven't been written in alignment with the overall strategy. So it's lovely to see that linking through, you know, and obviously I'm from a Visitor Experience background, so hugely passionate about the way that Visitor Experience teams can make visitors feel the organization's values. And that alignment was really impressive. So, yeah, really lovely and loads of great takeaways from all those talks. 

Paul Marden: I will just say for listeners, all of these talks have been recorded, so everyone's going to be able to download the materials. It take a couple of weeks before they were actually published. But one of the questions that I've asked everybody in these vox pops has been, let's do some crystal ball gazing. It's. It stinks at the moment, doesn't it? The, the, the economy is fluctuating, there is so much going on. What do you see 6 to 12 month view look like? And then let's really push the boat out. Can we crystal ball gaze maybe in five years? 

Rachel Kuhn: Yeah.  I mean, look, I think the whole problem at the moment and what's causing that sort of nervousness is there's just a complete lack of surety about loads of things. You know, in some ways, you know, many organisations have welcomed the extension for the MPO round, the current round, but for many, you know, that's just pushed back the opportunity to get in on that round that little bit further away. It's caused that sort of nervousness with organisations are having to ride on with the same funding that they asked for some years ago that just doesn't, you know, match, you know, and it's actually a real time cut for them. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. 

Rachel Kuhn: So I think, very hard to say, I don't know that there's much I can say. I feel like as at sea as everyone else, I think about what the landscape looks like in the next six months, but I think that never has there been, you know, a better time than something like this like the M and H show. You know, this is about coming together and being generous and sharing that information and I think reaching out to each other and making sure that we're sort of cross pollinating there. There's so much good stuff going on and we've always been really good at that and I think sometimes when we're feeling a bit down, it feels like, oh, I just don't want to go to something like this and meet others and, you know, get into a bit of a misery cycle. 

Rachel Kuhn: But actually it's so uplifting to be at something like this. And I think, you know, what we've seen here is at the show today, I think, is organisations being really generous with their experience and their expertise. Suppliers and consultants and supporters of the sector being really generous with their time and their expertise and actually just shows just spending a bit of time with each other, asking things of each other. We've just got loads of stuff to share and we're all really up for it. And I think that generosity is so critical and I mean, obviously I'm going to plug, I've got to plug it. 

Rachel Kuhn: So, you know, if you are a supplier, if you are a commercial business working in this sector, it might be tough times for you, but it's certainly nowhere near as hard as it is for the arts and cultural heritage organisations in the sector. You know, reach out to them and see how you can support them and help them. I mean, you and I have both been on a bit of a drive recently to try and drum up some sponsorship and corporate support for kids in museums who, you know, an Arts council MPO who we're incredible, incredibly proud to represent and, you know, do reach out to us. If you've been thinking, oh, I just want to sponsor something and I'd love to sponsor us. 

Paul Marden: Exactly. I mean, there's loads of opportunities when you take kids in museums as an example, loads of opportunities for. And this is what Arts Council wants us to do. They want us to be more independent, to generate more of our own funding and we've got a great brand, we do some amazing work and there's lots of opportunities for those commercial organisations who align with our values to help to support us. 

Rachel Kuhn: So I think you asked me there about what's in the next year. So next year, six months, I don't know is the answer. I think it's just a difficult time. So my advice is simply get out there, connect, learn from each other, energise each other, bring each other up. Let's not get into that sort of doom cycle. That's very easy next five years. You know what, I've had some really interesting meetings and conversations over the last. Well, one particularly interesting one today, some other ones about some funds that might be opening up, which I think is really exciting. You know, we've seen this really big challenge with funding, you know, slowing funding going in much larger amounts to a smaller number of large organisations and that causes real problems. But I think there might be a small turnaround on that. 

Rachel Kuhn: I'm not crumbs in the earth. I think it's still tough times. But that was really exciting to hear about. I'm also seeing here at the show today. I've been speaking to a lot of suppliers whose their models seem to be shifting a lot. So a lot more opportunities here where it requires no investment from the attraction and a lot more sort of interesting and different types of profit share models, which I think is really interesting. So I think the other thing I'd say is if you're an attraction, don't discount partnering some of these organisations because actually, you know, go and talk to them. 

Rachel Kuhn: Don't just, don't just count them out because you think you haven't got anything to invest because many of them are visiting new models and the couple that I've spoken to who aren't, learn from your competitors and start doing some different models. And I think that's been really interesting to hear some very different models here for some of the products, which is really exciting. 

Paul Marden: It is really hard sitting on the other side of the fence, as a supplier, we need cash flow as well. We've got to pay bills and all of those sorts of things. But you're right, there are interesting ways in which we all want to have a conversation. As you say, don't sit back afraid to engage in the conversation because you've got nothing to invest, you've got an important brand, you've got an audience. Those are valuable assets that a supplier like us would want to partner with you to help you to bring a project to life. And that might be on a rev share model, it might be on a service model. There's lots of different ways you can slice it and dice it. 

Rachel Kuhn: And going back, on a closing note, I suppose, going back to that generosity thing, don't think because you haven't got any money to commission, you know, a supplier to the sector or a commercial company, that you can't reach out to them. Like, you know, we are in this because we really want to support these organisations. This is our passion. You know, many of us are from the sector. You know, I will always connect somebody or introduce somebody or find a way to get a little bit of pro bono happening, or, you know, many of my colleagues are on advisory committees, we're board members. And I think that's the same for so many of the companies that are, like, working with the sector. You know, reach out and ask for freebie, you know, don't ask, don't get. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. Rachel, it is delightful to talk to you as always. Thank you for joining us on Skip the Queue and I am sure, I'm sure we'll make this into a full episode one day soon. I do say that to everybody. 

Rachel Kuhn: Thanks so much. Lovely to speak to you. 

Paul Marden: Andy. 

Andy Povey: Paul.

Paul Marden: We've just walked out of the M and H show for another year. What are your thoughts? 

Andy Povey: First, I'm exhausted, absolutely exhausted. I'm not sure that I can talk anymore because I've spent 48 hours having some of the most interesting conversations I've had all year. 

Paul Marden: No offence, Tonkin. 

Andy Povey: You were part of some of those conversations, obviously, Paul. 

Paul Marden: I was bowled over again by just the sheer number of people that were there and all those lovely conversations and everybody was just buzzing for the whole two days. 

Andy Povey: The energy was phenomenal. I worked out that something like the 15th show, M & H show that I've been to, and I don't know whether it's just recency because it's sitting in the far front of my mind at the moment, but it seems like this was the busiest one there's ever been. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I can believe it. The one thing that didn't change, they're still working on Olympia. 

Andy Povey: I think that just goes on forever. It's like the fourth Bridge. 

Paul Marden: Talks that stood out to you. 

Andy Povey: I really enjoyed interpretation One led by the guy from the sign language education company whose name I can't remember right now. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, Nate. That was an amazing talk, listeners. We will be getting him on for a full interview. I'm going to solve the problem of how do I make a inherently audio podcast into something that's accessible for deaf people? By translating the podcast medium into some sort of BSL approach. So that was the conversation that we had yesterday after the talk. 

Andy Povey: I know. I really look forward to that. Then, of course, there was the George and Elise from Complete Works. 

Paul Marden: I know. They were amazing, weren't they? You couldn't tell at all that they were actors. Do you know, it was really strange when George. So there was a point in that talk that George gave where we all had a collective breathing exercise and it was just. It was. It was so brilliantly done and were all just captivated. There must have been. I rechon there was 100 people at theatre at that point. Absolutely. Because it was standing room only at the back. And were all just captivated by George. Just doing his click. Very, very clever. 

Andy Povey: But massively useful. I've seen the same thing from George before and I still use it to this day before going on to make a presentation myself. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. 

Andy Povey: Just grounding yourself, centering yourself. Well, it's fantastic. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. But the whole thing that they were talking about of how do we create opportunities to have meaningful conversations with guests when they arrive or throughout their entire experience at an attraction so that we don't just talk about the weather like we're typical English people. 

Andy Povey: That's great, isn't it? Go and tell a Brit not to talk. Talk about the weather. 

Paul Marden: But training your staff makes absolute sense. Training your staff to have the skills and the confidence to not talk about the weather. I thought that was really interesting. 

Andy Povey: It's an eye opener, isn't it? Something really simple, but could be groundbreaking. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Andy Povey: Then what was your view on all of the exhibitors? What did you take away from all the stands and everybody? 

Paul Marden: Well, I loved having my conversation yesterday with Alan Turing. There was an AI model of Alan Turing that you could interact with and ask questions. And it was really interesting. There was a slight latency, so it didn't feel quite yet like a natural conversation because I would say something. And then there was a pause as Alan was thinking about it. But the things that he answered were absolutely spot on, the questions that I asked. So I thought that was quite interesting. Other exhibitors. Oh, there was a lovely point yesterday where I was admiring, there was a stand doing custom designed socks and I was admiring a design of a Jane Austen sock and there was just somebody stood next to me and I just said, "Oh, Jane Austen socks." 

Paul Marden: Very on Trend for the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen, that all of the museums in Hampshire will be buying those up. And should funnily you should say that I'm the chief executive of Chawton Park House, which is one of the museums in the last place that Jane Austen lived. So very interesting, very small world moment at that point. 

Andy Povey: I do, it's almost an oxymoron to talk about Jane Austen socks. I don't imagine her having worn anything with nylon or Lycra in it. 

Paul Marden: Very true. I hadn't tweaked that. 

Andy Povey: There was a lot of AI there wasn't there AI this, AI that. 

Paul Marden: And there were some really good examples of where that is being used in real life. Yeah, yeah. So there were some examples where there's AI being used to help with visitor counts around your attraction, to help you to optimise where you need to put people. I thought that Neil at Symantec just talking about what he called answer engine optimisation. That was interesting. There were some brilliant questions. There was one question from an audience member asking, are there any tools available for you to figure out whether how well your organisation is doing at being the source of truth for AI tools? 

Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. So almost like your Google search engine ranking. 

Paul Marden: But exactly for ChatGPT. 

Andy Povey: And have you found one yet? 

Paul Marden: No, not yet. There's also quite a lot of people talking about ideas that have yet to find a home. 

Andy Povey: Yes. What a very beautiful way of putting it. 

Paul Marden: The people that have. That are presenting a topic that has yet to get a real life case study associated with it. So the rubber hasn't yet hit the road. I don't think on that. 

Andy Povey: No. I think that's true for an awful lot of AI, isn't it? Not just in our sector. 

Paul Marden: No. 

Andy Povey: It's very interesting to see where that's all going to go. And what are we going to think when we look back on this in two or three years time? Was it just another chocolate teapot or a problem looking for a solution? Or was it the revolution that we all anticipate. 

Paul Marden: And I think it will make fundamentals change. I think it's changing rapidly. But we need more real case studies of how you can do something interesting that is beyond just using ChatGPT to write your marketing copy for you. 

Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean it's all about putting the guest at the front of it, isn't it? Let's not obsess about the technology, let's look at what the technology is going to enable us to do. And back to the first part of this conversation, looking at accessibility, then are there tools within AI that are going to help with that? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So there was definitely. There was an interesting talk by Vox. The people that provide, they provide all of the radio boxes for everybody to wear at M and H that provides you with the voiceover of all of the speakers. But they use this technology across all manner of different attractions and they were talking about using AI to do real time translation of tours. So you could. 

Andy Povey: Very interesting. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So you could have an English speaker wandering around doing your tour and it could real time translate up to. I think it was up to four languages. 

Andy Povey: BSL not being one of those languages. 

Paul Marden: Well, no, they were talking about real time in app being able to see subtitles. Now, I don't know whether they went on to say you could do BSL. And we know from the other presentation that not everybody that is deaf is able to read subtitles as fast as they can consume sign language. So it's important to have BSL. But there were some parts of that Vox product that did it address deaf people. It wasn't just multilingual content. 

Andy Povey: So AI people, if you're listening, you can take the idea of translating into BSL in real time and call it your own. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, we very much enjoyed hosting our theatre, didn't we? That was a lot. And Anna, if you are listening, and I hope you are, because lots of people have said very nice things in this episode about M and H. Andy and I would love to come back next year. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. 

Paul Marden: And host a theatre for you. Any other thoughts? 

Andy Povey: Just really looking forward to the rest of the week off. Yeah, it's a sign of a good show when you walk away with all that positive feeling and that positive exhaustion and you probably need a week to reflect on all of the conversations that we've had. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Next up we is AIM Conference at Mary Rose in June. I can't wait very much. Looking forward to that. Thank you ever so much for listening. We will join you again in a few weeks. See you soon. Bye Bye. 

Andy Povey: Draw.

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm. 

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 21st May 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky.

Show references:

Museum Wales website: https://museum.wales/

Big Pit National Coal Museum: https://museum.wales/bigpit/

Catherine Pinkerton LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-pinkerton-b1905a110/

Catherine Pinkerton is the Group Retail Manager at Amgueddfa Cymru - Museum Wales.

Having worked in senior management positions for some of the high street’s most recognisable brands such as Harrods, Selfridges, Dior and Guerlain to name but a few, Catherine spent 20+ years in London building her management career. Catherine is now the Group Retail Manager for Amgueddfa Cymru (Museum Wales). She is responsible for the management of all aspects of retail operations and development, across the national museums of Wales. Catherine is currently leading on a transformation project to create immersive retail experiences in each of the museum shops, reflecting the visitor experience and collections of each of the varied museums.

Guests Also Featured in This Episode:

• Anya Kirkby, Freelancer - Anya Kirkby Ltd – Product Development and Graphic Design [email protected]
• Arantxa Garcia, Freelancer - Exibeo VM Creative Studio – Shop Design and Visual Merchandising [email protected]
• Nia Elias, Director Relationships and Funding, Amgueddfa Cymru [email protected]
• Guy Veale, Freelancer – Freelancer - Sound artist/designer - [email protected]
• Amy Samways, Shop Supervisor, Amgueddfa Cymru - [email protected]
• Kate Eden, Chair, Amgueddfa Cymru - Members of Board | Museum Wales

Transcriptions:

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden. So today you join me on the top of a mountain in Blaenavon in Wales at Big Pit, the National Mining Museum. 

I'm here today for a really special event. I've been invited to the opening of Big Pit's new Museum Retail experience, which is a programme of work that's being done by the Museums Wales Group to improve the sense of place and the sense of feeling for what could be a blueprint for the rest of the group. 

We're going to be joined by a number of different people that have taken part in the project and without further ado, let's get started on our tour of Big Pit. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Morning, everybody. Hello, welcome. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome you all today and I know there's been a lot of you'd have travelled far and wide, so thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming to see the amazing store that we've created and I hope you love it. We're just going to cut the river now. 

Paul Marden: First up I've got Catherine Pinkerton, Group Head of Retail at Museum Wales. Catherine, welcome to Skip the Queue. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me. 

Paul Marden: Absolute pleasure. And this is a corker of an episode. I think everybody is going to be really interested in finding out about the retail, the gift shop experience that you guys have introduced at Big Pit and then you're going to go wider into. Into Museums Wales. This is a really weird episode because you and I are recording the morning after the day before. So yesterday was the big launch event and I was with you at Big Pit and I've met lots and lots of people and we're going to cut to them throughout the episode and hear from those people that were taking part in the project. But you and I have got the benefit of having enjoyed yester today's event and we can look back on what that experience was like and talk a little bit about the project. 

Paul Marden: Before we do that, I think it would be really lovely for you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about Museums Wales and Big Pit specifically. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Absolutely. Okay. So I'm Catherine Pinkerton. So I head up all of the retail stores within Amgueddfa Cymru, which is National Museums of Wales. I've been with the museum just under three years and I'm good that Cymru hosts seven sites. It's an incredible establishment to be part of and I think, you know, coming from a very commercial background, this is very different for me, but I think it's given me lots of insights into bringing kind of. Lots of. Kind of different skill sets, I guess, to this cultural sector. I think when I first initially joined Amgueddfa Cymru, there were lots of challenges. And that's not to say that we still have those challenges as they are in many of our museums. And I think coming from a retail background, it's. It's looking at something that's not. That's commercial, Paul.

Catherine Pinkerton: That's key. But actually, how can we make it very collection and story based on our amazing assets that we hold within our museums? And I think that I felt was probably the biggest thing that was missing because I thought we've got these amazing exhibitions, these amazing collections, amazing, you know, opportunities, and how are we putting that into the retail structure and how do we offer that to us, you know, to our visitors? And I think. I think sometimes it may be. Have forgotten that you go around these amazing spaces and it's very based on that visitor focus and how can we make that visitor feel very happy and engaged. But actually the end part of that process is nearly always coming through, exiting through the retail space. Right. 

Catherine Pinkerton: And if they've had this amazing opportunity to go and, you know, a lot of investment in these amazing spaces, and then they come through that retail space which has some elements, but not all of what our collections hold, there's a confusion there. You know, that end piece. And for me, customer service and visitor experience is absolutely key to how they. How they finish and how they end their day. And if they're ending their day with something, oh, okay, I'll just have a magnet then. Because there's nothing really else here. Yeah, that pains me. That really hurts me. I think, come on, guys, we can do better than this. We are in an element of. We have our own assets, our own elements to be able to kind of display that. 

Catherine Pinkerton:  And I think very much it would be very easy and to take the kind of easy road of having, you know, let's. Let's pop a dragon on a mug and yeah, we're a Welsh museum. No, we're not. We have assets here. We have beautiful exhibitions, we have beautiful spaces. And actually looking from further afield into. In terms of an emotional connection. And I think, you know, for me, from all of my past kind of previous work, I'm working with Amgueddfa Cymru. It's probably been the most challenging to get perhaps senior management to understand a crazy way of Catherine Pinkerton working into a. What's emotional retail? What does emotive selling mean? This lady is crazy. What's she talking about? But actually, it's really basic, isn't it? 

Catherine Pinkerton: Because for me, if I take my daughter or my husband to any kind of day trip, I want to take something emotional that I've connected with home with me, and that's so simple. But actually, sometimes it's not thought about in that way. And, you know, for me, I'm all about the emotional connection. And I think we put so much investment in curatorial teams to kind of give that to our visitors. We need to end that. That end part is so important for them to finish, you know, that journey with that emotional connection that they can take home as a souvenir. So, yeah, I've probably said more than I needed to there, Paul, but.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. So I think you're capturing the need to curate the. The ending experience because, you know, the nature of. The nature of people's memory is they remember the beginning and they remember the end and the bit that is in the middle is hugely important to the storytelling experience they have whilst they're at the attraction. But if you don't end on a high, then their emotional connection to you and the space and the stories they've heard is not going to be as impactful for them. 

Catherine Pinkerton:  Absolutely, totally agree. I think it's really key, and not just in the kind of, you know, the cultural sector, but in any sector, really. I think it's really important that connection is instant, really, because that is what you need to. That's the hook, isn't it, of getting that person, you know, and. And actually understanding what the visitor needs. I mean, it's very easy for me to say on a personal level, I'd love to have this collection of products within the shop, but actually, that's not what data tells us. That's not what our demographic tells know, you know. And they are the ones that are important. Our local communities, our demographic is key for us to be successful. 

Paul Marden: You know, so one of the things that I took from yesterday was the importance that you were moving away from being just any other generic Welsh gift shop to being a gift shop associated with the place. Yeah, that. That's the. That was the nub of I think, what you were trying to get to how do you go about doing that? How did you make it feel so much like a gift shop? About Big Pit? 

Catherine Pinkerton: It's taken a process of really pulling everything back and getting under the skin, what is the detail and the personality of the site. But actually it's talking to people and being humour. And Paul, you know, I think, very much, as I say, it'd be very ignorant for me to say this is what I think will work. And that's absolutely not what we want. What we want is for the visitors to say, I really. I mean, what was really interesting, actually, is that we did quite a lot of data analysis in terms of the demographics of customers that come through our sites. But also what was really key is areas of the sites that were really kind of, you know, three key areas that they really enjoyed or they really loved. 

Catherine Pinkerton:  And actually, one of the top ones was the pit ponies that they all love the pit ponies, they love talking about it, they love the stories that the mining team would talk about. It was a really inspiring, you know, inspirational moment for them to think, oh, my gosh, the pit ponies lived underground. This is really so, you know, I think in some respects that was probably missed in terms of our retail offer, because what we did after that is that we had a workshop with all our retail team and we almost did a little bit like a Dragon's Den effect. We said, right, these are the products that we have, right? Can you pick up out of these products, which products represent the pit ponies? Which products represent the shower rooms? 

Catherine Pinkerton: And actually, when you're talking to the teams in kind of a literal sense, there wasn't a lot within our retail offer that we already had. And I think it was a bit of a light bulb moment, really, for the retail team and said, “Oh, Kath. Right, I see, Yeah, I understand what you mean.” That's not represented in our retail offer. So what's represented currently was wonderful things and lots of Welsh kind of products. But actually, what. What makes that relatable to our site? And so I think what I wanted to do originally is just go on a journey and to kind of really, from a very basic stage, is understand what the site's POS was and actually understand what their personality was and what the curatorial team were trying to push forward as being their identity. 

Catherine Pinkerton:  And I think once we got the identity, we then broke that down into themes in terms of there's pit ponies. That's a huge part of the, you know, the exhibition. The other huge part of the exhibition were the canaries. So, you know, that was something that was talked about. There's a huge story around that. And then, you know, the kind of mining history and the community was massive. And actually that element was so important to me and the retail team to make sure that we got right. Because this is history, right? And this is. I come from both my grandparents were miners. So for me it was very much a, you know, a very emotional time for me to make sure that we got it right and that it was respectfully done. 

Catherine Pinkerton:  So that was really key in terms of how do we deliver this. That's really. That we are not stepping on people's toes. We're not profiting from something that was, you know, the strike range is very significant within what we've offered, but we really wanted to make sure that was respectful and that it was done in a tasteful way that people felt they could take a souvenir away, but know that was actually part of the exhibition. So it was those kind of areas that we really wanted to work. So once we have those themes in place in terms of what those looked like, it was then developing that and how do we develop that into an actual concept? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, and you've drawn in lots of people. You've already mentioned the kind of wide team that you brought in from Big Pit itself, but from the wider team in the group. Talk a little bit about what that experience has been like as a team. Who have you brought into this? 

Catherine Pinkerton:  So originally, when we wrote the retail concept and the retail strategy, you obviously have to kind of involve quite a lot of internal candidates to be able to allow them to believe that this journey and vision is a good one. And I'm super thankful. I've got the most amazing manager, Marc Simcox. He's the head of enterprises and he is incredible. He's very commercial, but very trusting in terms of understanding what the business should look like and actually giving that freedom to say, yeah, I think this can work. Kath. So you, you go ahead and that. That's huge. Right. We're not talking about a small project here. So that firstly was great for me. And then I think having the, you know, the opportunity to be able to get some key people. 

Catherine Pinkerton: And Matthew Henderson we've worked with previously and we've, you know, I knew straight away, for me, Matthew Henderson has gotten. Got a very unique way of working and we work very well together. We've got quite similar kind of ways of working, but I think that development and concept phase is really key and I think it really got to the point where we just sat in a room and kind of really understood what are we trying to achieve here, how can we achieve that? And really just making it very basic in terms of the key themes. And then in terms of product development, we brought on Anya Kirkby. So she is an illustrator and a very clever lady indeed. And we have worked with lots of illustrators and lots of suppliers over the years. 

Catherine Pinkerton: But what we wanted something for Big Pit was to be quite different in terms of the illustration and the product development. Because what we wanted to deliver with Big Pit was something that had been my vision since the very beginning when I started with Amgueddfa Cymru. And that is, you know, going into the shop and having those guidelines, you know, pricing guidelines, information guidelines, those small details which would probably mean nothing to the average person walking through, but actually a price ticket on something that's been illustrated pains me to see, because the work that's gone on behind that is so key. 

Catherine Pinkerton: And, you know, for most people not understanding that a price ticket on that is so I think those details are really key, Paul, and I think she really worked stringently with me to make sure that was, was, that was kind of a massive aspect of that role. And then Arantxa Garcia, who is just the most incredible designer. She's, she's a genius in what she does. She's incredibly creative and sometimes you have to kind of pull her back and say, okay, you want this? Okay, can you deliver this rancher? 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Catherine Pinkerton: And what was really interesting with a rancher is that, you know, she's got a huge, amazing CV of working with lots of people within the cultural sector and designing amazing, incredible pieces. But I think were very nervous because the, the original kind of renders that she sent through to us were quite amazing and impressive. And I said, arantha, are you able to deliver this under the kind of, you know, the budget? We've got a tight budget here. 

Paul Marden: That's the challenge, isn't it? 

Catherine Pinkerton: I mean, isn't it? 

Paul Marden: You do not want to be paying, you don't want to be offered the picture of a Maserati when you have got a Ford Fiesta budget, do you need to know that you can afford it. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Absolutely. And I think with Aranta, she was very, again, super creative lady. And I think I, as soon as I saw that image, I did say to her, right, you need to deliver this now. You've, you've committed to it, Arantia, so this needs to happen. And then finally, Richard Evans, who has, is hugely respected in the cultural sector and he really supported in terms of project management and the, you know, I hate to say this, and you won't mind me saying this, but the kind of boring kind of financial Gantt charts and keeping me in line actually. Right, Cath, we haven't got a budget for that. You can't spend that. Come on, Richard, make it work. Move some things around, you know. 

Catherine Pinkerton: So I think that was kind of the main area and then internally, Tracy Lucas, who was kind of my right hand woman, is our operations manager within Amgueddfa Cymru and she really supported me along with Amy, the shop manager, shop supervisor to really look at the product development. So I think, you know, and I think it was really nice actually to have them on board because I think it gave an opportunity for them to see what could be. And I think, you know, definitely in terms of retail, it's been an opportunity for us to be able to say, look, this, the impossible can be possible. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Actually this is an amazing project and I think what was really incredible is that when we decided to work on Big Pit, the Big Pit team and all of the mining team actually just came on board, Paul, they took it on board and I think the reason why they did that is that one of the mining teams said to me, he said, kath, you know, we never get any funding here. It's always in this big cities, you know, we, the Cardiff and it's never here, you know, we're just in the middle of nowhere. And I was like, absolutely not. That is not what this is about. It's about, you know, making sure that the community in that area is solid. 

Catherine Pinkerton: And I think the mining industry and they're very proud of that in terms of who works there, they're incredibly proud of what they do. And so because we chose that as our first project, they were so helpful in terms of, yeah, we're going to make this work, let's make it a success. Cath, how can we do that? What do you need from me? I mean at one point we had two of the mining staff pulling one of the drums which we upcycled out of it was like a lake or, yeah, I suppose a lake with a tractor. And I was like, this is crazy. This is crazy but just amazing that these team members are willing to do above and beyond to kind of go and help and support.

Catherine Pinkerton: Dwayne Smith, finally I have to mention him because he went above and beyond. He, he's an electrical engineer for Amgueddfa Cymru and no feat was kind of Too hard for him. He helped us massively. He's got a huge team of people and anything that we needed done, I'm not, you know, I'm not a trades person, so anything Trady. I was like, Dwayne, yeah, I'm on it, Kath, I'll do it. Which is great because I was like, okay, yes, that was massively helpful, but huge learning curve, Paul. I feel I've never been so excited about drums in my entire working career as I am now. 

Paul Marden: And I never heard of one until yesterday. But what I found interesting was you see them all the way through the underground experience. I went down in the. The cage to the bottom of the pit head, did the whole tour. You talk about these drams and the importance of them and the transportation of the coal from throughout the mine back up to the top. And then you walk into the shop and it's subtle. The way that you've blended the museum into the shop is a subtle experience. It doesn't feel, it doesn't feel crude. But you've got a dram in the middle of the workshop. Now, I know it's a real one because we talked about it yesterday and I know the pains that you went through, but it's very subtle placed in there so that it doesn't feel crude. 

Paul Marden: It doesn't feel like you're trying to overwork the metaphor of the mine in the shop. It's very cleverly done. 

Catherine Pinkerton:  Oh, that's great, great, great to hear. Because that's absolutely what we did not want. And I think in terms of visual merchandising, actually, and picking up on your point there, is that it's very easy for us and this is something that we're doing in a different shop. It's very easy for us to look at some of our assets and pop them on a tote bag and say, there you go, that's done, we'll sell that. But actually, no, what can we do that's different? That's more kind of innovative? That's more creative. That is a hint or perhaps an opportunity for us to show and display something that is. Is then part of the visitors question. So when they're coming into store and they're speaking to our retail teams, they're questioning, is this a real drum? 

Catherine Pinkerton:  You know, and that is a conversation opener, isn't it? You know, and I think Kerry Thompson, who is the curator for Big Pit, he's a really inspiring man. I could listen to him all day. And he told me lots about kind of the drums and the history of Big Pit and the strikes. He's such an interesting man, but I think having the inspiration from him allowed us to make sure that we did it not in a crude way, actually, Paul, but that it was representative of the site, but not in a way that's, I guess, too obvious, you know. 

Paul Marden: Look, Kath, we could carry on talking for ages, but let's cut at this point to hear about some of the voices from the team that you worked with, your internal team, some of the partners that you worked with, about the experiences that they've had on the project. 

Paul Marden: So let's hear from some of the internal team members involved in the project. Firstly, we have Amy Samways, the retail supervisor at Big Pit, followed by Kate Eden, the chair of Museum Wales. And lastly, Nia Elias, the Director of Relationships and Funding at the Museum of Wales. Hey, Amy, how you doing? Lovely to meet you. What's your role at the museum, Amy? 

Amy Samways: I'm the shop supervisor for Big Pit. 

Paul Marden: What have you been doing in this whole project? I guess you've been integral to the whole kind of making it all about the place. 

Amy Samways: Yeah, so I've worked with Anya, who did all the products for the new shop. So we walked around all the exhibitions. We did a lot of underground visits and a lot of museum visits and just put things together. I've done a lot of work before this project for the last two years to try and get things more relevant to us and not just a Welsh souvenir shop. So a lot of those products stayed and then we just expanded them then. 

Paul Marden: So how do you go about looking for those products that make it local to here? 

Amy Samways: Well, we've got a fantastic exhibition at the top of the hill. We've got obviously our ex miners and we also have a lot of events through the times as well. So this year was a lot about the strike because obviously it's the 40th anniversary and we've got a massive exhibition down in Cardiff and also there's a smaller one up year as well. So we just walked through the museum and obviously, you know that disasters are obviously a big issue. We didn't want to make a big issue about those, but obviously they need. They're part of history, aren't they? So more books. We made sure we had books around that. And as you walk through, there's a lot of signs that the staff liked as well, because a lot of our guys have been done about the new projects with those as well on. 

Paul Marden: So do you then go looking for local suppliers to help you with that? And where do you find those? 

Amy Samways: Etsy, Facebook. 

Paul Marden: Oh, really? 

Amy Samways: Yeah, a lot of them. And also online. And then we've also. Because we work with a lot of suppliers as well, I'll say we need this and then they'll say, oh, you should ask so and so, and then we'll go and ask both. 

Paul Marden: Brilliant. So one of the things that's really interested me this year is talking to people that are running museum retail and that kind of process that goes from you as a buyer, having an idea, what do you want? How do you stock the shop? I think is really interesting process to go through, but flip it on the other side, as a local creator, you've got your thing and you want it in the shop. How do you get it found? Well, yeah, sticking it on Etsy is something that they're going to do, but then that might help them get into the museum. 

Amy Samways: Even if there is something that we want. Like at the minute, we're looking for NCB soap. 

Paul Marden: For what? 

Amy Samways: NCB soap. 

Paul Marden: What's that? 

Amy Samways: It's either bright green or bright pink and they used to buy it in the canteen shop and it's just imprinted with NCB. The guides have been asking and asking for it, but we have actually found a supplier now who's going to be working on it. So that should be coming this summer. 

Paul Marden: Wowzers. 

Amy Samways: Yeah. That's really exciting for you. 

Paul Marden:  What was the highlight? What's the one thing about this space, about the whole experience of the project. 

Amy Samways: That jumps out for me is seeing all the stock we've worked on and somebody actually buying it. 

Paul Marden:  And what is it that people are picking up? What are they walking in and gravitating to? 

Amy Samways: Anything Big pet, really. The little enamel little mugs have gone really well. I think the wording on those are great because it says they must not be removed from the premises. So our guides are loving those. And also our retro sign, which we had for our 40th anniversary and three years ago, but we kept it because it's such a brilliant design. It was the original from 1983 and it was on the original road sign as you drove in. So we've had that recreated and that sells really well. 

Paul Marden:  That's really interesting. So my wife with the family about 25, 30 years ago, came on a family holiday and they had the original guidebook that they picked up when they were here with the kind of the retro. Retro signage on there. 

Amy Samways: Yeah, we're back selling it again. 

Kate Eden: Yes, So my name's Kate Eden. I'm chair of the board of Amgueddfa Cymru. 

Paul Marden:  Tell me a little bit about your involvement in this project. 

Kate Eden:  As the board, we've been tracking the development of commercial and enterprises over the past year. Really. And really thrown our way, weight and support behind what the team has been trying to do here as a kind of flagship, really, for what we would all like the new benchmark to be across all of the seven sites of anger for Cymru. So seeing it all come together this morning has just been such a special experience. It's absolutely fantastic. I'm going to bring the rest of the board here as soon as I can so the trustees can see this and see the reaction of staff and of visitors as well, because it's a fabulous achievement and it shows us what we can do now as a national museum. 

Paul Marden: How well does it tie back into the original pitch at trustees? So I'm a trustee of a charity as well. The pressures that we're all under in terms of reducing funding and having to generate our own funding is so hugely important. This must be integral to the conversations that you were having as trustees. Did you have this in mind when you were signing off the agreement to spend the money? 

Kate Eden: Yeah. So I don't think anybody realised just how successful this could be. We'd had some mock ups and we'd had a presentation, so there was a lot of excitement and there was sort of the fledgling idea years. So we've got a sense of what it could be. But I think importantly for us, it's about that marriage of financial sustainability because it's got to wash its face, it's got to provide a working profit that can go back into the running of Big Pit here.

Kate Eden: But it's got to be authentic to this place. It can't be the add on the visitor should shop that you walk through at the end. And it's a bit of a tedious thing to get back to the car park. It's got to be an integral part of the whole visitor experience in this place. And I think that's what they've achieved. 

Paul Marden: It's so impressive. So impressive. You know, just the structure that they've built to give you the impression of the mine in a really subtle way. The product that they've chosen, the way that they've laid out that, the shop is amazing. I think they've done an amazing job. 

Kate Eden: That's it. I mean, this is my local site. 

Paul Marden: Okay. 

Kate Eden: I live about three miles over the mountain there. So I bring my friends and family here. This is our go to place when I've got visitors. And I think just the way they've opened up the room, they've removed the barriers, which is really important. It's a small thing, but really important so that people feel welcome. They can walk in or they can walk ground. 

Paul Marden: Yep. 

Kate Eden: And it's. And it just feels a little bit more inclusive. It feels a bit more kind of, you know, we're here, it's easy to come and see us, you know, and spend time and then spend a little. 

Paul Marden: A little bit of money. Yeah. So where do we go from here as trustees? Are you fully behind rolling this out now? 

Kate Eden: Yeah, I mean, I think now that we've seen what we can do and the type of data that's coming through from sales, this is now the new. This is the bar. 

Paul Marden: Oh. So it has made a discernible difference to say. 

Kate Eden: So early data from Easter is really promising. Yeah. So this is the benchmark now from all of the other sites. 

Nia Elias: Hi, Paul. Hi, I'm Nia. 

Paul Marden: Lovely to meet you. Tell me about your role at the museum. 

Nia Elias: I am Director of Relationships and Funding. It basically means I get to work with all of the teams across the museum that work on the reputation, the reach, but also the revenue of this wonderful charity and national museum that we are. Because as well as getting funding from Welsh government, we raise our own income so it can be invested.

Paul Marden: What sort of split? 

Nia Elias: What sort of split? So the majority of the money that comes to us does come from Welsh government because we're a public service, we're here free of charge for the people of Wales and we look after the national collection, which is over 5 million items across seven museums and a collection centre. 

Nia Elias: But there's a proportion then of money that we raise ourselves about sort of 30%, which is from our cafes and our car parks and the experiences that people have, and most importantly, our shops. 

Paul Marden:  So what was the inspiration for this project? Why kick off a strategy project around the whole retail experience? 

Nia Elias:  Well, this whole project, in essence started three and a half years ago when the museum decided that it would bring a strategy together for all of its self generated income. So that means our philanthropic income generation and through our enterprise, including our retail. And from a retail perspective, we knew that what we wanted to achieve with all of the money that we raise ourselves is that it's really rooted in the collection, because we have an amazing collection. It tells the story of Wales and it's owned by the people of Wales. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Nia Elias: And from a retail perspective, we knew if people could engage with that and could take away something from the wonderful experience that they've had on site, that it would be something that they would want and it would make it unique that it's only possible to have here. Developing a project like this is quite challenging. You need the time, you need the teams and expertise, some of which are on your permanent team, some of which are naturally not. And also you need investment. And so by starting the thinking and the route of where we wanted to get to three and a half years ago, it meant when we had the funding and the opportunity to do so here at Big Pit, we knew exactly what to do. 

Paul Marden: Okay, so you. You put all of those pieces together and then came here and did the first cookie cutter stamp. But what's interesting is it's not a cookie cutter stamp, is it? This totally feels like the gift shop for this museum, doesn't it?. 

Nia Elias:  Yeah. So we feel really strongly that we wanted the balance of knowing that you're at a National Museum Wales site, knowing that you're somewhere unique, but equally that it has a sense of a place. Because all of our seven museums together tell the holistic story of Wales, but you really get a sense of personality on all of those sites, not just from the collection and the buildings and the items, but also from the colleagues that work here as well. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Nia Elias: They're very much a part of that in terms of the stories that they tell, their lived experiences, and we had a sense of responsibility and fun to bring that through in the shop. Not just the ambiance, but also the products themselves, so much of them, the majority of them actually, are grounded in being inspired by the collection in some way, and also has a really strong Welsh and local profit as well. What we think that will come through to our customers and visitors and guests is that because we've worked across all of the teams in the museum, so curators and people who care for the collection, our colleagues here at Big Pit, many of whom are former miners, and our colleagues front of house, it means that everybody will be able to speak about the product. 

Nia Elias: So as you're walking around picking things up, imagining them in your home or as gifts, our colleagues can talk about what they mean to the place. And that brings something additional that you can't really buy. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. There's a story to it. There's a background to it that roots it. Yeah. Lovely. For you, what's the standout experience from the whole project? What have you enjoyed the most? 

Nia Elias: Two things I think in terms of the way that it's been done, the fact that so many teams have worked together behind the scenes to make it happen. That means that as we want to change things or tweak things or improve things, we'll have all of the knowledge and expertise already baked in, especially learning from other suppliers who've come along and helped us. So we've got that baked in now, which is really exciting. And the second thing is that I can stand here knowing that this is the standard of a national museum that our guests and visitors expect and want to see. 

Paul Marden: And now let's hear from a few of the external partners that Kath brought into the project. Arantxa Garcia was the shop designer and visual merchandiser. Anya Kirkby was responsible for product development. And Guy Veal was responsible for sound design. Tell me about your involvement in the project. 

Arantxa Garcia: Sure. So I'm the shop designer and visual merchandiser. It's a freelance role, so. So I worked with the team, Matthew, Richard, Anne and Guy. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. 

Arantxa Garcia: So we kind of all came as part of a team and each one of us looked after different areas of the project. And my involvement was to kind of reinvent and reimagine what was already here. And the idea was to create a space that was connected to the experience and to the site itself. So we've basically ripped the space apart. We've kind of kept the structure, obviously, but we've opened up the space as well. Before the shop, it would be very separate. You'd have admissions and then you have the shop area, which meant that you were only really accessing the shop if you came to visit the site. But as a local, you wouldn't be able to come, for example. Or you could, but maybe not in such an open way. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, you wouldn't feel welcome. 

Arantxa Garcia: Exactly, exactly. You may not want to just because you didn't know, whereas now you can just come in and basically hang around and also browse the shop. Exactly. We took inspiration from life underground, from the mine itself. So before the building was white, the units were white, so it could be a shop anywhere. You know, it didn't really have a DNA, so to speak, or an identity that related it directly to the site. So when visiting down to the underground and King Call as well, the exhibition that we've got just up the hill, we took inspiration from basically sort of like the. The cladding that you've got on the walls. Cladding is not the right word. So if one of the miners hears me saying that, they'll be. 

Arantxa Garcia: That's not the word that we told you, but the idea is that all the materiality that we're using, it's really evocative of. Of the site and it's the materials that have been used underground. So even, like the safety lamps, they'll set authentic safety lamps. And the team on site, Dwayne Smith, has electrified them. So it means that now they work, obviously, as a normal light, but it's a safety. 

Paul Marden: But they are the original safety. 

Arantxa Garcia: They are the original safety. 

Paul Marden: Wowsers. And what about these styles? 

Arantxa Garcia: So, yes, I always like going for a hunt on the side. So basically the team took me to different rooms and we just found stuff, if you like. So they're like the pressure gauges, you know, we're gonna use them just to add, again, like, references to the site and the authenticity, of course. So you also find loads of tools that would have been used underground as well. 

Paul Marden: I would imagine that this has been a really enjoyable project for you. I can see it on your face, how much you've enjoyed it. 

Arantxa Garcia: It has. And I think for designers, sometimes there's projects that take a bit longer to emerge and you keep changing things because you just don't feel probably quite right. There's something. But with this one, it kind of. After the site visit, it was just. 

Paul Marden: I clicked immediately.

Arantxa Garcia: It just clicked immediately. So we darkened the wall. So we've kind of given that sort of grey background just to kind of creating more of like a cosy and shrinking the space. 

Paul Marden: But you. It pops the orange. 

Arantxa Garcia: Exactly. And the orange is everywhere. So, like, we've also changed the lighting, so it's a lot warmer. So again, that hint of orange. Yeah, orange on the back, orange on the miners on here. And then it comes also from the products. So the identity is there, but without going fully corporate, if that makes sense. That's the colour that you remember, isn't it? You've just been on the ground. All our guides and miners wear the orange overalls and the sort of, like the blue jackets over it, whether it's a donkey jacket in the winter or then they wear the soft shells as well. So, yeah, it's all those details, like those hints to the experience that kind of are embedded in the design. And these are regional as well. The drums are regional, all the flatbeds. 

Arantxa Garcia:  So the team here took the metal sides off and then sort of like left the skeleton of the drum, varnished it. And then our shop fitters aren't here. They did all the sort of the cladding using reclaimed scaffolding boards. But the original Drums would have been made out of wood. 

Paul Marden: Beautiful. It's so tactile, isn't it? 

Arantxa Garcia:  It's tactile. Again, we're looking at the DNA all the time. And shops can be more than just shops. Shops can tell stories. You just connect with it in a very different way. And just having the time the team on site involved has been absolutely incredible. Like the sense of pride and belonging and provenance that this kind of has awakened, it's been great. It's your job done really as a designer. When you just feel like everyone owns it, that's your job, that's when you can walk away. 

Paul Marden: What an amazing testimonial for you and the work that everyone feels like that. Anya, lovely to meet you. Tell me, what was your involvement in the project? 

Anya Kirkby: So I mainly focused on product development. So we looked at where we could get inspiration from the site and how we could translate that really from the site experience into the shop experience as well. 

Paul Marden: Okay, so you're coming, you're experiencing what's going on and then looking to the outside world as to how you can source your products. Where do you go for the inspiration for the products? 

Anya Kirkby: Working with the team a lot. So Amy was a huge help on guiding us on what things would be very useful for visitors, what they really enjoyed when they were on site, what were their key take home messages that they experienced. And then working with Amy and Tracey as well to look at what products people like when they're in the shop anyway and how we can kind of marry those two up. 

Paul Marden: So what is it that people like when they come to Big Pit? 

Anya Kirkby: Well, unsurprisingly, the mine, they enjoy the mines, the mining experience. So that was just something that we already had in the shop. So we just expanded on that more if possible. But then we've also taken inspiration from signage. So they already had the original Big Pit signage and we looked at that and kind of again expanded on it. So then we've kind of expanded that to signage that you find in some of the other exhibits. So up in the showers, for example, in the canteen, signage, some of the original pieces from collections. We then translated that into products. So you'll see we've got the designs across mugs, original little metal signs, moved that across to prints, notebooks, postcards. 

Paul Marden: You've been developing a lot of the products yourself, so bringing that kind of the unifying feel to everything. 

Anya Kirkby: Yeah. So along with product development and making all the kind of the new things that we can have it's just bringing across the branding through the AC brand really strongly across everything. It's got such a strong message that we may as well have that on as many products as we possibly can do. 

Paul Marden: And how much of the stuff is actually locally sourced? 

Anya Kirkby: Oh, it's huge amounts. And the exciting thing is after speaking to Amy, the things that she needs to reorder are the local suppliers, which is so nice. So a lot of the confectionery that's locally sourced candles, soap, the coal figures, the wooden spoons, chocolate boxes, the biscuit boxes. So as much as possible. And then we've worked with local suppliers as well to do photography, to do some of the signage, to do the original signwriting in the shop as well. So beyond products, we've looked at the POS points like elements of the shop as well. So thankfully we've used as many local spires as we possibly can. 

Paul Marden: You've enjoyed this project, haven't you? 

Anya Kirkby: I absolutely loved it, yeah. It's fantastic to see it's absolutely amazing. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Anya Kirkby: So yeah, it's really special. 

Paul Marden: And then from here you springboard on to the other seven sites. How do you, how do you come up with the ideas then? 

Anya Kirkby: Exactly the same process. So working with the teams to find out what it is that visitors absolutely love about their sites and bringing that into the shop experience. So again I get very lucky. I get to go around a lot museums and experience it. 

Paul Marden: It's a tough job, isn’t it?

Anya Kirkby: It's tricky. But basically finding out what they love and bringing that through the really things that visitors take home with them anyway and just making it into a product that they can actually physically take a piece of the museum home with them as well. 

Paul Marden: It's great because there are some pocket money items here because I take kids on school visits and it's a very expensive experience. You know, if they catch take a fiver with them, often they can't get anything with a fiver but they can walk in and they've got pencils, they've got rubbers and they'll walk out happy with those little bits. But at the same time you've got some beautiful stuff that the grown ups can come and pick up and really enjoy. 

Anya Kirkby: It's the same as any museum visitor. You kind of have to look at who's going to be visiting. It's all types of people that come and just gauging it from that as well. So having an offer for everyone that they can enjoy. Someone said to me once that children for the first time. It's often their first time having a transaction monetary wise. Is that a museum on a school trip? So it's just lovely to kind of have something for them to experience that as well. 

Paul Marden: Never thought of it like that. They're out on their own. They're not with mum and dad. So they've got the money themselves and they've got to make the decision. So we are at. I took some kids to the science museum last year. 

Anya Kirkby: Oh. 

Paul Marden: And the amount of time we took in the shop because of the indecision that they had. 

Anya Kirkby: It's the indecision decision and then the queue of all them having a five pound note and having all the change come back or not having quite enough. But I think it's such an important. If you can't do that in a museum, where can you do it? 

Paul Marden: Guy. Hi. 

Guy Veale: Hi. 

Paul Marden: I just wanted to talk to you a little bit about what was your part of the project? 

Guy Veale: I was sound designer for the soundscape which we can't hear when everyone's chatting. 

Paul Marden: I can hear some birds in the background. Is that. 

Guy Veale: Is that canaries? Living canaries. Not dead gas. 

Paul Marden:  Coal mine canary. 

Guy Veale: So I did a little bit of research sort of towards the end of the project after lots of stuff had been built in, when they decided that some low level sound would be a good part of the experience. And looking at the brief and the shape of the room, the acoustics, a lot of this new ducting that's gone in that was not then easy to put cables into. We had to go for a wireless solution. 

Paul Marden:  Okay. 

Guy Veale: As part of that I found a Swedish company that had a system that creates its own network which is like a weird dream because normally you've got to go the IT guys and then something goes wrong and there's some sort of address problems or. Bluetooth is not always reliable. This has been a revolution just in terms of. 

Guy Veale: Don't if you can see them. There's little. They look like light fixtures that are centrally over these panels. 

Paul Marden: Oh right. 

Guy Veale: And they're quite. 

Paul Marden: Oh. And so they're speaking speakers pointing down onto the panel to separate it. So what. What. The other kind of sound pictures that you're painting. We've got the canary. What else have you got? 

Guy Veale: So the whole idea is that you're trying to represent the industrial heritage of the site and have as many authentic sounds from the site as possible. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Guy Veale: So we've reused some of the really high quality recordings that also feature at different parts of the site already. 

Paul Marden: Yep. 

Guy Veale: But then, also sourced about another 70 or 80 sound from the BBC archive. 

Paul Marden: Oh, wow. 

Guy Veale: Paid for. And so. But if you think about those sounds, they're quite punctuated and aggressive. You think of any industrial sound and like chipping away or different tipples working. You know, the idea is that you don't want to surprise someone that while they're shopping and leaning over next to a speaker and hearing. So it needed to be softened in some way. And you know, traditionally the way I've done work is music and sound design is using different textures and tonal design and like a drone, I suppose, is this as a sort of basis that can be moving and organic, not totally static? 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Guy Veale:  And the idea was to sort of try and include fragments of relevant songs using the male voice choir.

Paul Marden:  Really.

Guy Veale: And we tried several things and I looked at it and I realised that you might catch someone coming in for five minutes here and they catch a snippet and it's all well and good for them, but the staff and you've got to hear this eight hours a day, every day, you know, four weeks, a month, so forth. So even just one little identifiable recurring melody starts to get too much, even on quite a long five. 

Paul Marden: Oh, really? 

Guy Veale: And I found that it wasn't sustainable. So I, in the end, I ended up using the. Almost like the vocal warm ups and breaths of the choir artificially extended out so they're not breathing, just this constant low level, breathy sort of expulsion. I mean, if went quiet now, we'd hear it as the. As a backdrop and it's embedded with a few other little musical elements that just sort of try and soften and support. I think of it like the vowels of the track and then the consonants. 

Paul Marden: Or the industrial chipping noises and the harsher noises. 

Guy Veale: So they're harsher but they're there and they're a bit removed and reverberate and in the background. 

Paul Marden: But it's really interesting how you describe it in that kind of. Using the metaphor of the letters. 

Guy Veale: Yeah, that's what it felt like. Just trying to find something that was like a vocabulary of work that has to tick so many different boxes, including like a therapeutic retail experience. People leaving the site with a sense of well being. Also like summarising what they've been through, not sort of projecting them out the door with, you know, a completely new thing or somewhere that they haven't been through yet. So, you know, fair few things to try and fit in there and, you know, hopefully it works and we'll see how things are in a year's time. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. Cath, the last point I wanted touch on before we finish today is oh my God, how happy everybody was at that event yesterday. How positive the experience was for all of the team members. What was for you the big standout moment for the entire project? 

Catherine Pinkerton: I mean, there's so many, Paul. But I think for me it's an opportunity to see what can be achieved when people collaborate. And I think, you know, joining the museum three years ago is really collaborating with lots of different departments to achieve something as a team.

Catherine Pinkerton: Teamwork is absolutely the key to kind of success and I think you can only achieve that by having that really product professional kind of embodiment with all of the collaborative teams to work together for the same goal. And I, I was really proud yesterday that it took a lot of work, but actually without a team of 40 people as well as the wider organisation, it would not have been, it was no mean feat, but it was certainly wasn't just down to one person saying this is my project because it was a team effort. 

Catherine Pinkerton: And I was so proud of everybody that was there to kind of thank them along the way to say, this is, we've done this and now onwards and upwards. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. You should be so proud. It really was. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you. 

Paul Marden:  It's a demonstration of what a museum gift shop experience can really be like when you work together like that, when you collaborate. So well done to all of you. It was such a lovely experience yesterday. Thank you for inviting me. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Thank you so much for coming, Paul. I appreciate it. 

Paul Marden: Before we go though, I always ask for a book recommendation from our guests. Now it would have bankrupted me to have asked everybody yesterday for book recommendations. So you have to take the responsibility of a recommendation on behalf of everybody. What have you got for me? 

Catherine Pinkerton: The secret for me is, you know, that that book seems to be. I always go back to that book very often and I think it's a key one for lots of areas. So that's definitely a takeaway for me. But the other one I'm reading at the moment called A Monk's Guide to Happiness. I'm not sure if you've had enough to read it. Yeah, it's a 21st century take on A Monk's Guide. It's written by Gelong Thubten and he had a very high powered job and he had a burnout and interestingly he changed his whole mindset in terms of what makes him happy and really making it quite basic. Right. 

Catherine Pinkerton: So it's a, it's a real eye opener in terms of just pulling things back sometimes, you know, at the end of the day, come on, let's just live life and be happy but, you know, not stress out about things. I'm quite easy to do that. So this is very much a. Just breathe, Kath, get through it. But it's a good one. If you want to just strip it back and just kind of understanding the basics of being happy, then, yeah, he's great. 

Paul Marden: Oh, Cath, that's a great recommendation. If you go over to Bluesky and repost the show message that Wenalyn put out and say, I want Kath's book, then the first person that does that will get a copy of the book sent to them. Kath, it was absolutely delightful. I enjoyed my day wandering around Big Pit yesterday no end. Given that half my family is from the valleys and most of them were miners, I feel like I should have done this a very long time ago. But it was lovely. And to enjoy the experience of the celebration that you had yesterday, it was a real privilege. So thank you. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Oh, huge privilege to have you there. Paul. Thank you so much. I'm really appreciative. Did you purchase? 

Paul Marden: I did purchase on my way out. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Yay. Great, great, great.

Paul Marden: Deal. 

Catherine Pinkerton: Deal. Thank you so much. 

Paul Marden: So after my trip 90 metres down to the bottom of the mine shaft, where I of course couldn't take microphones, I'm now back up on the surface, microphones back in hand and enjoying myself, wandering around currently in the winding house, which is where all the machinery is for lifting the cages that 90 metres down to the bottom of the pit head. I've had an amazing day here at Big Pit. It's been so interesting to see this museum and to talk to many of the amazing staff that have taken part in this big project to redesign their gift shops. Highly recommend a day trip to Big Pit. Really has been very enjoyable, if for no other reason, to see that amazing new gift shop experience. 

Paul Marden: Now, as always, if you'd like a copy of Catherine's book, head over to Blue sky and repost the show notice that Wenalyn will post out and say, I want a copy of Catherine's book and the first person to do that will get that copy sent over to them. So all that remains for me to say is thank you to Catherine for inviting me here to Big Pit today. And I'll see you again soon. Take care. Bye Bye. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm. 

Download The Visitor Attractions Website Survey Report - https://www.merac.co.uk/download-the-visitor-attractions-survey

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter  or Bluesky for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Competition ends on 7th May 2025. The winner will be contacted via Bluesky.

Show references:

Dynamic Earth website: https://dynamicearth.org.uk/

Dynamic Earth X: https://x.com/ourdynamicearth

Dynamic Earth LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/our-dynamic-earth-dynamic-earth-enterprises-ltd-dynamic-earth-charitable-trust-/

Mark Bishop joined Dynamic Earth in the summer of 2022. The Edinburgh Science Centre & Planetarium provides science engagement to over 250,000 people a year at the centre and across Scotland. 

Prior to joining Dynamic Earth, Mark was a director at the National Trust for Scotland for seven years. In the 23 years Mark has been in the voluntary sector, he has also held senior roles at Prostate Cancer UK, Leonard Cheshire Disability and The Royal British Legion. 

His commercial sector experience includes roles at HarperCollins, Sky, and he co-founded two Internet start-ups. He continues to be a Trustee of Dads Rock, which is a charity dedicated to supporting men to be great parents.

Transcriptions:

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor Attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. The Millennium Commission was set up by the UK Government to celebrate the turn of the millennium. Funded by the National Lottery, not only did it fund the Millennium Dome, now the O2, it also funded many regional venues, including a number of science centres such as Dynamic Earth in Edinburgh, which was the first major millennium attraction in Edinburgh. 

In this episode, I'm talking to Mark Bishop, the CEO of Dynamic Earth, about those millennium babies and what the next 25 years looks for them. After a career in charity fundraising, Mark moved to the attraction sector in 2015 at the National Trust for Scotland, before becoming CEO of Dynamic Earth nearly three years ago. Now let's get into the interview. 

Paul Marden: Mark, welcome to Skip the Queue. 

Mark Bishop: Hi. Morning. How are you? 

Paul Marden: I'm very good. I'm very good on a very sunny morning here down in Hampshire at the moment. I don't know what the Easter holidays are like up there for you at the moment, Mark. 

Mark Bishop: Well, people always talk about the weather being different in Scotland, so here in Edinburgh, we had the most amazing first week of spring last week, and that made me sad because indoor visitor attractions often benefit from when it's cloudy or rainy. So I am delighted to say the second half of Easter is terrible outside, but amazing inside our building. 

Paul Marden: Oh, good. So, visitor numbers are good for you this Easter holiday, are they? 

Mark Bishop: Well, we had probably the best number of people in since COVID Yesterday. We had 1302 people in. 

Paul Marden: Wowsers.

Mark Bishop: That's great, because to have families and groups in celebrating science in our building during their holiday time makes me happy. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, went. I've been doing day trips with my daughter just recently over the Easter break and you can definitely feel there's lots of people out and about and enjoying themselves over these Easter holidays. So good to hear that it's been kind to you as well. Longtime listeners will know that we always start our interviews with an icebreaker question that you cannot prepare for. So I think I've been kind to you. I've got a couple for you here. This is an A or B question. If you're going out for a night out, is it going to be a concert or is it going to be a museum nighttime exhibition? 

Mark Bishop: I think I'm supposed to, on behalf of the sector, go for the latter, but I am going to answer it in an authentic way and say A, a concert. So before I had kids, I'd probably go to about 150 concerts a year. Really, in the days when NME existed and it had a print edition and I'd pretty much just buy it, flick it and go, that looks interesting. And go without ever even hearing things because Spotify didn't exist and he goes to stuff and it was terrible or brilliant, but I loved it just from the variety and the surprise factor. Obviously, these days we kind of plan our music events a bit better. We know the artists and in theory we make better choices. But perhaps we don't do such good random things as well. Who knows? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, now this one's a little bit more in depth. If there is a skill that you could master immediately, what would it be? 

Mark Bishop: Trying to understand how my three kids think and how I need to respond to that. But I don't think I'm the only parent on the planet that loves seeing the variety of ways they behave. But just question, how on earth did they come to be and think like that? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, it sounds like almost a kind of being able to speak child and become an interpreter, a child whisperer. 

Mark Bishop: And I think we, you know, sort of kind of be a bit more profound about these things. As an Earth Science Centre, that predominantly kind of has family audience, actually, some of the best questions we get are from younger people. So sometimes minds are probably more open and liberated. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a nice segue, isn't it? So why don't you tell us a little bit about the Dynamic Earth? What stories does the Dynamic Earth try to tell? 

Mark Bishop: So Dynamic Earth, for those who don't know it, is the Edinburgh Science Centre and Planetarium. And as I'm sure we'll talk about, we were the first out of the millennium babies to launch back on 2nd July 1999. Our building predates being a science centre. It used to be a Scottish and Newcastle brewery. So when people say, I can't organise the proverbial in a brewery, I go, possibly released half row. And in the mid-1990s, they stopped making beer and handed the land over to public benefit. And it's become the UK's leading Earth science centre. So we're very much a science centre, but we're a science centre with a very specific theme around our planet and our universe and the experiences are very deliberately immersive. 

Mark Bishop: So we allow people to experience in a safe way what it feels like to be in an earthquake, to see a volcanic eruption, to touch a real iceberg, to dive to the bottom of the ocean and then fly out to the outer reaches of space. And we do all of that because we think our planet is beautiful and fascinating and the wonders of the world need to be celebrated. But increasingly, we also want to showcase the perils we're placing on our planet, our only home. We have about a quarter million people come through our doors a year, and that would be families, that'd be tour groups. There'll be a lot of school groups coming in, 30,000 kind of school groups coming in, and then we have about 400 conferences and events a year. 

Mark Bishop: So we have everything from Arctic conferences, water resilient conferences, and electric aeroplane conferences. You name it, we have it in our building. And I think a lot of the conferences have keynote speakers that tend to be first ministers or senior politicians, because unless somebody can tell me otherwise, I think we are the closest science centre in the world to a seat of government, because the Scottish parliament is 10 yards across the road. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. So you have the year of government as well? 

Mark Bishop: We like to think so. 

Paul Marden: So I've not been to Dynamic Earth yet, and I need to solve that problem. Yeah. But I'm getting a picture in my mind of telling the story around the geology of the planet, and there's going to be lots of physics around. The planetary stuff that you talk about when you take that big zoom out. Are there other elements of the science, the different sciences, that you bring into this storytelling? Is there elements of biology and botany and things like that you bring into this? 

Mark Bishop: Yeah, absolutely. So, for example, one of the galleries I didn't mention to you is a rainforest gallery. So you go into a tropical rainforest, regardless of what the weather is like outside in Edinburgh and Scotland, you come into a tropical rainforest, but the sounds and smells and sensations of that rainforest immerse you. And we do that because, you know, probably very few people will travel in their lifetime to a tropical rainforest. And there's lots of environmental reasons why you probably wouldn't encourage people to do that. But to be immersed in that space and to feel what it's like to be in a rainforest allows you to understand that it's humans' relationship with the world around them, and that we're not the only beings on this planet. And so hopefully we try and humble people by realising there are other habitats and species than ourselves. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. So today's episode, what we want to do, we've got a series of episodes that we want to do around the Millennium Project. I've got particular interest in this because my first job whilst I was still at uni was at the National Botanic Gardens of Wales, which was a millennium project. So I was there whilst they were digging. I can vividly remember it being a building site, and this dome where they built the gardens, sort of lifted out of the earth. So I felt, I can remember being there and feeling like this was something important, we were building something for the long term. It was an exciting opportunity. And we're at this kind of big anniversary, aren't we, this year, 25 years since many of those millennium projects opened. 

Paul Marden: And I wanted to kind of look back on those 25 years. Did it work out the way it was planned to work out? Did it turn out to be this exciting new opportunity, building a long term legacy for the country? Were there some growing pains, that kind of thing? And what does the future, what's the next 25 years and beyond look like for those millennium babies? So let's take a little step back because although I was wearing my wellies and walking around a building site, I didn't pay a lot of attention to what drove the investment in the first place. So there was a big explosion, wasn't there, through investment from the Millennium Commission in science centres. So what drove that in the first place? Why did these science centres come into being as a result, the Millennium Commission? 

Mark Bishop: Well, I think the thing that probably everybody felt in the 90s, from the mid-90s onwards, was you just heard about the millennium coming, as if this was going to be a significant zeitgeist kind of piece. We're all being told that every electronic device was going to break because of the millennium bug. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Mark Bishop: And that one didn't come to be kind of thankfully. But I think beyond that kind of anxiety piece around technology, there was a sort of spirit of looking to the future, thinking what might be. I felt like a time of optimism and hope. And so therefore it kind of made sense for government and other agencies to invest in thinking about the future, because a lot of museums and galleries and other institutions are fantastic custodians of the past. 

Mark Bishop: And of course galleries and museums reflect present times in terms of exhibitions and storytelling and interpretation. But there really weren't many science centres or organisations that were specifically existing to help each of us come to terms with what hasn't yet happened. So I think that's probably the kind of founding driving spirit behind it. And Dynamic Earth was very much part of that wave. 

Paul Marden: You talk a little bit about being a former brewery. How did Dynamic Earth come into being? What, what was the background story to it? Because these things didn't just appear on the high street in the year 2000. They were projects that ran up to that point, weren't they? 

Mark Bishop: Yeah. And I love going through our limited but really important kind of archive of documents to try and understand these things. And I sort of love heritage because my last job was working at the National Trust for Scotland. So therefore I'm kind of fascinated by the past as well as kind of looking to the future. And so when I go through our kind of archives and records, it shows that we stopped being a brewery in the early 1990s. Scottish Newcastle said to themselves, you know, we want to give the space over to public benefit. At the time, it wasn't defined to be a science centre. And this part of Edinburgh, the bottom end of the Royal Mile, had a royal Palace. It's had that for a long time. But it was pretty much run down housing and factories. 

Mark Bishop: And so this whole end of town was very down on its luck and everything kind of needed to be thought through again. So Edinburgh City Council and other agencies like Scottish Enterprise and major kind of funders all got behind thinking about this whole part of town in Scotland's capital, rather than just thinking about a side centre. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Mark Bishop: So the land that Scotland Newcastle gave over to doing good things was partly sold off by dynavicarth to allow, you know, to allow flats to be developed next door we've got Rockstar North. The other side of me, we've got the Scottish parliament that opens 24 hours away from Dynamic Earth kind of stuff. So they opened the same week. So it's a whole story of kind of urban capital city regeneration that lies behind that. But very specifically, why did Dynamic Earth become an Earth Science Centre? Yeah, and you can't see it, but if I dramatically look out my window, I can see Arthur's Seat and the Salisbury Crags through Holyrood Park. Anybody who comes to Edinburgh, whose legs allow, will walk up the hill and experience an old volcano and a beautiful view of the city. 

Mark Bishop: And now the reason that's significant is that a guy called James Hutton, 300 years ago was a real leading light in the Enlightenment, and he managed to challenge all those kind of religious zealots in terms of the age of the planet by studying the rock forms right outside my window. And he went, “Guys, I've got a thought. This wasn't done in a day or seven days”. I'm telling you now, there's billions of years of laying down of rocks and stuff like that. And so, therefore, when we thought, what does this brewery need to become? 

Mark Bishop: A number of good people said, well, let's make this centre a homage to James Hutton, the idea that the Enlightenment is still alive with us today, the idea that you should be able to challenge existing hard set views by using insight and science to inform your thinking. And then the rest happened. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. So I didn't know that Edinburgh was the kind of the seat of that thinking around the geological history of the Earth and what drove the purpose for the centre. It makes lots of sense now. So let's talk about opening up. What was that experience like for the Dynamic Earth? I know there were lots of positives for many people. I know lots of millennium attractions didn't bring in the numbers of people that they were perhaps hoping for. What was that early life like at the centre? 

Mark Bishop: Well, so inevitably, anything that's new attracts a crowd of people who are curious. So the early couple of years were really good from a kind of visitor attraction side of things. But actually quite early on, within the first couple of years, my predecessors realised that you just can't, generally speaking, break even or make a profit from just running a visitor attraction, particularly when your purpose is educational rather than just pure entertainment. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Mark Bishop: And so our building had the answer built into it, in the sense we have an amazing set of conference suites for businesses, weddings and other kind of celebrations. And so quite early on, we started an events team and that now means we have 400 plus events here a year. Half of them, I would say, are kind of environmental science specific events. But that generates, you know, one and a half getting off £2 million of income ultimately for us. And that's very significant way of A, making sure that we are a place where ideas take place. Our convening power, if you want to call it that, but actually also the net contribution of that is a very significant way to fund any gap you have on the visitor side of things. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, I should imagine having the seat of Government 10 yards from the building helps with bringing in the events. And that's certainly not going to detract from the events portfolio, is it, being smack in the centre of the city like that? 

Mark Bishop: Well, if I think, I mean, in the space of what, the last three or four months, ie, 20, 25, we've had the first minister here two or three times, we've had the Deputy First Minister here the other evening. And so therefore, if you're a company or a conference organiser and you want to attract all the good and the great in terms of delegates, knowing there's a senior political figure to do the keynote address is a good way of making your marketing literature kind of really sing. I think, you know. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. 

Mark Bishop: And also from a. I guess for the politicians as well, because their time is in demand, very precious. So the idea that they can reach their key stakeholders on pretty much any topic in the space of 10 yards, half an hour here and then back at your desk within the hour, that's quite attractive from a political perspective. 

Paul Marden: Absolutely. So, going back to those early days, as your predecessors were finding their feet, of figuring out what operating a science centre was going to be like, what were the growing pains? Were there some challenges along the way? 

Mark Bishop: So, inevitably, what is brand new doesn't stay new forever. And I think if you design a science centre and retrofit it into a brewery, there's obviously some trade offs in terms of layout and the design. And you have beautiful architects come in and do amazing things for you that look amazing at a kind of brochure, aesthetic level. But when you trade them day in, day out, you do sometimes question the infinite logic behind the design principle. So, for example, if you come through Dynamic Earth, we're a beautiful tented structure like the Millennium Dome or the O2 as it is today. And if you're coming in and you're buying a ticket in person, you would turn left and go to our ticket desk and join the queue there. But then the actual experience side of things is completely on the other side of the building. 

Mark Bishop: So the intuitive flow of coming in, getting a ticket and joining the experience is designed in a counterintuitive way where, in effect, audiences sort of meet in the middle to a certain extent. So that's probably an example of things that you just wouldn't have got right on day one, but kind of are a gentle living curse for you every day since. 

Paul Marden: I wonder, though, by retrofitting the centre into this old historic brewery, whether you may not have fallen foul of some of the other attractions that were built around that time, because many of them have got problems with the fabric of the building now, haven't they, these new buildings that perhaps were built with the same level of care and attention that we might lavish on them these days. 

Mark Bishop: Yeah, I mean, that's a good thing. I sit in this amazing sort office that basically looks like a castle turret. The walls are this thick, you know, they are very sort of stone and authentic. So it's a very authentic historic building, but with new ideas and thinking and experiences within it. So it's a trade off, I guess. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So now that these centres are getting to early adulthood, how do you think they're doing? 

Mark Bishop: Well. Thankfully, the vast majority of science centres and other experiences that launched inspired by the millennium are still in existence. So survival in the first instance is a form of success. And I think that the fact that we're open shows we've all stood the test of time, which I think is an important achievement. I think what's clear from talking to all the science centres that I bump into is we all find it quite challenging to get that balance between your purpose and your profit, trying to get that balance between why you exist in the first place versus how you fund the building, your staff and your other bills. And so that's an ongoing kind of challenge that the original business plans are used to justify an investment probably don't reflect reality 25 years on. 

Mark Bishop: I think the other thing I would say that's a real shift is I think centres like Dynamic Earth were opened at the time when the Internet was absolutely in its infancy.

Paul Marden: Completely. 

Mark Bishop: And I still remember from my homework and university work, going to libraries and getting books and using physical things to kind of acquire knowledge. And of course, the Internet now means that any facts and figures are available at the touch of a button. So if you want to know about a volcano, you can find as many facts and figures as you want on the Internet, Wikipedia or other sources. It means that Dynamic Earth and other science centres have kind of shifted from simply thinking about ourselves as a knowledge exchange centre to being a place where we inspire people to think for themselves and that. 

Mark Bishop: I don't know whether that happened on day 4009 or whatever it was, but I definitely think that when you look at what were doing on day one versus what we're doing in our 25th year, there's been a shift in emphasis and approach. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. You're right that all of these facts and figures are the fingertips of the young people who are completely immersed in that as a natural way for them to research. But I've done enough school party visits, I've taken kids to different science centres, and you can't replace the storytelling, you can't replace being immersed in the place that is so powerful. 

Mark Bishop: I think 100% agree, and you'd be surprised if I didn't say that. But the idea that you learn as a shared experience, either as a school group or a family or a tall group, you have some jokes, you bounce ideas off of each other. And I saw that recently when my daughter came here a few months back for her last primary school visit, aged just 11, coming at 12.  And she begs me over breakfast, she said, “Please, Dad, don't do anything to embarrass me.” And I absolutely, solemnly swore at breakfast, you know, I will not do anything to embarrass you today. And I maintain I kept my promise. 

Mark Bishop: But when her school bus pulled up outside our building, the doors open, the kids poured out, my daughter's friends all pointed up to the top of the stairs and went, “There's a dinosaur there, Autumn, that's your dad. It's going to be your dad. You know that.” And I hope that you know that their school group had an amazing experience through the galleries, an amazing experience with our learning team and a fantastic sort of outer space experience in the planetarium. But even that sort of jokey bit of Dad's a dinosaur stayed with the kids. So at the end of their year's show, one of them hired a dinosaur outfit and they reenacted my daughter's embarrassment. And so even that tiny, silly example shows that shared experience is what it's all about. 

Paul Marden: Completely. I think those experiences that kids have when they go out on their school trips, it's something that Bernard et ALVA talked about earlier on this year as being really important, key points for that ALVA was asking of the government, was to make those school trips integral part of the curriculum. I think they're so powerful and so many kids don't get to experience that well. 

Mark Bishop: I think the challenge we sort of see here that be the same across Scotland and UK wide is even when there are opportunities to have subsidised tickets and you do everything you can to make sure the price of entry for school groups is as low as possible, often the barrier is the cost of the coach hire. 

Paul Marden: So I'm a governor at my daughter's school and I was talking to the head and they're in a really lucky position because they've got us. They're a very small village school, so there's only 90, 95 kids in total anyway. But they've got their own minibus which makes them mobile, so it means that any. We were at the Horse Crest, like the local heritage railway, just recently because we got invited for a trip and it was dead easy for us to go straight away. Yes. Because the kids can just get there easily and that's a different kettle of fish if you've got to hire coaches, because it's so perilously expensive now. Anyway, we digress a little bit. You've been in post now for three years, nearly three years, I think it is. Yeah. 

Paul Marden: What does your plan look like in the short term, but also what do you think the next 25 years look like for Dynamic Earth? 

Mark Bishop: I think that question sort of speaks to the idea that while an organisation should be proud of its 25 years of existence and everything it's done in that time, and we've certainly had some lovely staff celebrations and public celebrations to celebrate that important milestone. It's too self indulgent to spend all your time looking back rather than thinking about and facing into the future. And that's probably more true of science centres than anybody else, because if you were founded on looking to the future, you get to 25 years. 

Mark Bishop: Yes, have a little look back, but bang, think about looking forward to the future again and ask yourselves brave questions like what do we need to do that honours the spirit of what our founders did and thought about to put us together in the first place and not to betray our roots, but equally not to be constrained by them. Because the world is very different 25 years on, and particularly around the climate emergency and planetary crisis. We at Dynamic Earth, as an Earth Science Centre, feel not just an opportunity, but a kind of absolute responsibility to play our part, to kind of really shift the dial around helping people understand their role and responsibility when it comes to protecting our only home planet Earth. And so that's the kind of challenge we've set ourselves. 

Mark Bishop: And I'm going to do a dangerous thing of involving a prop. About 18 months, two years ago, we launched our 10 year strategy from beginning to end, and it's a document at the end of. But the exact summary is this. And of course you can see there's a clock there and you might be able to see the kind of temperature, kind of pieces, and the 1.5 is the 1 that we know quite tragically we're going to reach sometime very soon. And what we've done with that 10 year strategy is say how do we honour what we've been famous for, but how do we push and pivot that towards climate kind of response storytelling? 

Mark Bishop: And so therefore what we are trying to work through for ourselves is how do you maintain a popular visitor attraction? How do you inspire people, bring entertainment and delight into people's lives, but how do you absolutely hit home with some really hard truths around what we are doing to destroy the beauty of our only hope? 

Mark Bishop: And I'm not sure I've quite got the answers to that because becoming sort of quite purposeful and, you know, risks being didactic. And being didactic takes away the idea that you're helping people to think for themselves and risks being a bit preachy. So there's a really good set of conversations going on at Dynamic Earth and I think a lot of other places across the UK, which is, how do you, how do you exist on the right side of history while still existing as a visitor attraction? 

Paul Marden: Yes, because it is a tough story to tell, isn't it? And that doesn't necessarily sit comfortably with being a lovely day out with the family, but that doesn't take away from the importance of telling the story and telling it well. 

Mark Bishop: And I think what we feel is, if there's one criticism I'd kind of make of the past is we probably overdefined ourselves as a visitor attraction and underdefined ourselves as an Earth science education charity that happens to run the visitor attraction. And that might feel semantic, but actually it's quite fundamental because if you realise that your purpose is about educating people inclusively across Scotland, including in Edinburgh, and now increasingly helping people come to terms with climate issues, then your visitor attraction is a tool, a prop, an asset to achieve a bigger thought than just visiting numbers. 

Paul Marden: So is there work that you do, outreach work that goes beyond the centre in Edinburgh? Are you talking to people outside of that centre? 

Mark Bishop: Absolutely. And some of the work that makes me most proud of being chief exec here at Dynamic Earth is the stuff you do not see day in, day out. So we have outreach work that goes into schools and community groups right across Scotland. There's about 10 regional science festivals that take place across the year. We're at every one of those with our pop up planetarium, it's got an inflatable planetarium. Unbelievably, 30 people can slip inside a big squishy tent, and the universe comes to life wherever you happen to be. And that's kind of pretty magnificent. We go into children's hospitals, we work with community groups, we do digital and in person delivery in schools. And so therefore what we do away from Dynamic Earth as a science centre is as important as what we do at the centre. 

Mark Bishop: Because probably the people who might not be able to come to us for geographic reasons or financial or cultural reasons are often the people we most need to reach. And if we really believe that everybody in Scotland should play their individual and collective part in responding to climate planetary emergencies, we can't just say, well, if you don't come to us, we're not going to come to you. Because the climate issues need all of us to respond. So we have the added burden opportunity to get out there and tell our story across Scotland with that in mind. 

Paul Marden: Is there a shake up that's going on in the centre as you move on to this next stage of the maturity of the organisation? 

Mark Bishop: So I think that the things that are different in our approach is thinking about channel mix and that we kind of music to your ears because I think that science centres absolutely pride themselves on that in person shared experience, and that shouldn't go away. But actually thinking about how a one off experience is part of a longer customer or supporter journey is really key. So how do you connect with people before they come? By setting them, I know, a kind of online quiz and say how many of these questions about our planet can you answer? And then ask people to redo the quiz afterwards and see whether a visit to Dynamic Earth or another science centre has enriched their kind of knowledge. 

Mark Bishop: How do you connect what a family does on a Saturday to what a school group do in a classroom on a Tuesday and Wednesday? How do you get to what I call a nudge strategy, a multiple engagement kind of model? Because it strikes me that most things that, you know, mean something to people are developed over time rather than just one off experiences. So that's a shift in thinking, and it's a shift in thinking by not thinking for yourself as a visitor attraction, but thinking for yourself as a charity that exists to promote learning and engagement more broadly. 

Paul Marden: That's really interesting. So I'm totally guilty of thinking about the visitor attraction first and the commercial elements of it, because I guess that's our job is to get bumps on seats and to drive revenue. But when you think of that visitor attraction as the tool, not the end, you're using that tool to meet your bigger goals, aren't you? And it changes your perspective on how you do that. 

Mark Bishop: Well, it does because it allows you to sort of exist in a dual way of saying at a customer, experiential level, digital attraction side of things. How do you make sure that the experience you offer to people is distinctive, compelling, exciting and all the basic service features of toilets, cafe, shop, all this car parking, all those sorts of things on the functional side are doing what they need to do and then it means on the other side that you're also saying, “So what? you know, what is that trip all about? What did somebody take away?” 

Mark Bishop: And part of what people take away is that sense of shared experience, fun, entertainment, something to do on a wet Saturday afternoon. And that's valuable. But if you fundamentally help even a small proportion of your audience think radically different about themselves and the world around them. You might be doing something that goes way beyond what this attraction could ever imagine. 

Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. So is that what you're aiming for? Is it the few minds that you can change radically, or is it the nudge of making small changes to the larger numbers of people that walk through the door? 

Mark Bishop: I mean, the answer to that is both, because we think every one of us has an opportunity and a responsibility to do basic things. So, I mean, the obvious good examples would be how you recycle stuff. And I look at my teenage boys, are they always recycling things in the best way or am I going through the bin resisting things? But then you ask more fundamental questions of, well, it's not just a case of recycling the bottle of plastic water. Why did you buy a bottle of plastic water in the first place? Yes, this stuff like that. 

Mark Bishop: And so a science centre like us helps people not just do the right thing in kind of lip service ways, but think more fundamentally about your role and relationship with what excites you at school, what studies you take, what degree you might go on to take, or what job are you going to go on to do? And how do you make sure that where you buy things from, where you work, where you spend your time is reinforcing the good rather than perpetuating the bad? And that's, you know, maybe I'm an idealist, maybe I'm a lack of realism, but actually I really do think that on our day, that's what we exist to do. 

Mark Bishop: And there will be maybe 1%, 2% of the people who come through our doors who are so inspired by science that they choose careers that are acting as environmental activists. I can think of a lovely lady I met the other day. I'll change her name to Laura. She told me that she came To Dynamic Earth 20 years ago for our Saturday science clubs and she used to come most Saturday mornings. And she so fell in love with science that she chose science subjects at school, went on to do a science degree and is now just finishing off a PhD in understanding volcanoes with a view that she wants to look at volcanic eruptions, where they happen and help think about where humans live alongside volcanoes. So all of that came from her coming here on Saturday mornings. 

Mark Bishop: So she is living proof that you inspire people young, and it can inform the whole direction of their studies and clear intention.

Paul Marden: And deadline. Yeah, completely. What a lovely story to end on, but there's one more thing we have to do before we end today's Interview. We always end with a book recommendation. So, Mark, what book have you got for our listeners to maybe win today? 

Mark Bishop: So it will sound slightly sort of sanctimonious, but I've just started reading Mike Berners-Lee's book, A Climate of Truth. Now, Mike was in Edinburgh the other evening to do a talk as part of the Edinburgh Science Festival. Such an inspirational guy in terms of kind of climate, sustainability kind of issues. His mum must be very proud to have him. And you know, his, you know, one of the boys invents the Internet, the other one saves the planet. You sort of think to yourself, that ain't too bad. And I'm going to cheat slightly. And also just recommend one poem to people. It's Scottish poet Douglas Dunn. And it's a poem that I first heard when I was at school and I would say I read it probably 20 times a year. 

Mark Bishop: And the poem is called A Removal From Terry Street and it's only about 15 lines. And what I love about it is it finishes on that, on a beautiful line. That man, I wish him well, I wish him grass. And the context the poem is talking about a family removing, you know, working class family moving away from Hull and the neighbour is looking at them moving out and saying, you know, I wish him well, I wish him grass. And so I think that's just a lovely line that stayed with me. It speaks to the idea that we should all think the best of each other and hope for the futur, and think positive thoughts. 

Paul Marden: Well, Mark, it's been lovely talking to you. Thank you ever so much for coming on Skip the Queue, telling the story of dynamic Earth and looking forward to what happens next for your amazing attraction. Thank you very much. 

Mark Bishop: Thank you. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm. 

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

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Show references:

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Kelly's final episode

The transformation of Painshill Park, with Paul Griffiths, Director of Painshill

What it really takes to launch a podcast. With Kelly Molson and Paul Griffiths

Paul Griffiths has worked in the Heritage, Museums and Tourism world now for nearly 30 years.

After spending 16 years working in various role for English Heritage, in 2012 he moved to the Mary Rose Museum as Head of Operations to oversee the opening and operations of the multi award winning museum, welcoming over one million visitors before in 2018 taking on moving to the Painshill Park Trust in the role of Director of Painshill. Paul spent 6 years there before his move in December 2024 to Ras Al Khaimah one of the seven Emirates that make up the UAE. In this exciting brand new role Paul is Chief Executive Officer of the Al Hamra Heritage Village, part of the Al Qasimi Foundation.

Transcriptions:

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Visitor Attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.

Longtime listeners will remember my guest today, Paul Griffiths, when he was CEO at Painshill Park, from when he was interviewed back in season one by Kelly. 

In today's episode, Paul comes back to talk about his new role as CEO of Al Jazeera Al Hamrah Heritage Village in Ras Al Khaimah in the UAE. Now, I'm always interested in the first 90 days of people's experience in a job, so we'll be talking more about that and his for the future. 

Paul Marden: Paul, welcome back to Skip the Queue. 

Paul Griffiths: Hello. Thanks for having me, Paul. Great to be here. 

Paul Marden:  Long time. Listeners will know that we always start with an icebreaker question and our guests don't get to know that one in advance. I think this one's a pretty kind one. I was pretty mean to Paul Sapwell from Hampshire Cultural Trust a couple of weeks ago because I asked him whether it was Pompey or Saints and for political reasons, he felt that he had to abstain from that.

Paul Griffiths: Testing his interest. I'd have gone Pompey at the time because that's where we live. Well, did live. 

Paul Marden: Oh, there you go. There you go. So you've moved over from Portsmouth. You're now in the UAE. Tell listeners, what is that one? Home comfort that after three months away from Blighty, you're missing? Is it proper English marmalade? 

Paul Griffiths: Do you know what? I've been able to get hold of most things, but I've not been able to get. I know people who cook properly, so I should be able to do this myself, but I haven't. Cauliflower cheese, one thing I'm missing from home, that doesn't sell it anywhere in a sort of pre pack or frozen form. I can even get hold of Yorkshire puddings in Spinny's supermarket, but I can't get hold of cauliflower cheese. 

Paul Marden: Can you get cauliflowers? 

Paul Griffiths: Can get cauliflowers. I'm sure I can make cheese sauce if I knew what it was doing. But you normally. I'm so used to normally buying a pack of cheese, cauliflower cheese to have in my Sunday roast. 

Paul Marden: Okay. So if I ever get to come out, I need to bring out a plastic wrapped, properly sealed so that it doesn't leak on the plane. Cauliflower cheese? 

Paul Griffiths: Yes, please. Yeah, absolutely. 

Paul Marden: So your last episode was actually. Or your last full episode was back in season one, episode 22. So five years ago and the world has changed a lot in five years, but most recently it's changed a lot for you, hasn't it? So why don't you tell listeners a little bit about what's happened to you since you were with us in season one? 

Paul Griffiths: Wow. Yeah, well, season one seems an age away, doesn't it, now with all the wonderful guests youu've had since on Skip the Queue, it's been a different program completely. But, yeah, no, well, back then I was at Painshill, were coming out of a pandemic and I remember, you know, Kelly and I were chatting over all the different avenues that everyone had gone and what we've done at Painshill and that continued brilliantly. And however, my life has taken a change in. In sense of where I am, but I'm still doing the same sort of work, so. Which is, you know, when our industry, and it's such a fabulous industry, it's great to stay in it. 

Paul Griffiths: So I am now over in the United Army Emirates in the Emirate of Ras Alhaima, which is the third biggest of the seven emirates that make up the UAE, behind Abu Dhabi and, of course, Dubai. So I was approached, God, nearly always, this time last year, about a call over here. Yes. My recruitment company got in touch and went through, you know, had a good look at the job description and thought, well, actually, we'll throw my hat into the ring. And applied, went for a series of online interviews with the recruitment company, then an online interview with the people over here at various departments within the Al Kassimme Foundation and the Department of Museums and Antiquities. 

Paul Griffiths: So, yeah, looking at this brand new job, which I'm now lucky enough to be in, I then was flown out in August for a round of interviews, met all the team. You know, one of those things that you later discover, the whole real four days was one big interview, although there was. There was a central one. But of course, everyone you were meeting along the way was being asked to feedback, And I love chatting to people and enjoying people's company. So actually went for dinners and lunches and all sorts, which was just a lovely four days and almost felt like a free hit in many ways, Paul. Well, this is going to be a brilliant experience. 

Paul Griffiths: If I don't get the job, I'm going to have a great four days in Rasta Taima, seeing it, meeting everyone, enjoying the time here. And, you know, the more time I spent here, the more time with the team, the more time, you know, going and visiting sites. I just became more and more that this would be an amazing job. Obviously gave my absolute everything, did loads of research, gave everything in the interview. The interview took a rather unusual turn. After the sort of hour and a half of questions and my questions, I was asked to leave the room for a short period. Not unusual in that sense because I was, you know, I wasn't just going to leave and go because obviously I was in their hands for four days. 

Paul Griffiths: But the doctor, Natasha Ridge, the executive director of the foundation, came out the interview and said, “Right, that's all gone really well. We're really pleased. We're now off to the palace for you to meet His Highness Sheikh Saud, who is the ruler of Ras Al Khaimah and on the Supreme Council of the UAE.” So I was sort of, I went to one of the small meeting rooms you. Now I know that. Now I know where I was, where I went. But at that point I had no idea. One of the lovely. There's a very much a service thing here. 

Paul Griffiths: So, you know, we have in the Heritage Village as well later we have a wonderful member of our team, Geraldine, who does lots of cooking, prepares stuff and just had a wonderful fish taco lunch because we're four hours ahead of you, of course, here in Alaihi. So, yeah, so one of the guys came in with, gave me an English breakfast tea and sort of, you know, sat there reviewing what, thinking what on earth was I going to be asked by His Highness. And then was put into one of the drivers and we drove up through Rat Sahma City, through into the palace, up the long driveway and there I was sort of eventually, after about 20 minutes, presented with. Presented to Sheikh Sword who asked me, chatted, asked various questions. 

Paul Griffiths: I don't think there could be many interviews that you end up with His Highness in the second half of it. You know, it's sometimes a presentation. Yeah. So that was. I was there for about half an hour and that's your time over and off he goes. And off I went back to then go and have dinner with some of the team. So it was a very surreal afternoon. 

Paul Marden: Being interviewed by royalty. But when you're not expecting that as part of the interview process, that must be quite unnerving. 

Paul Griffiths: I had a heads up that at some point in my trip I might meet him, but there was no formal arrangements. I had me had to get in a diary. So it hadn't even crossed my mind that's what was about to happen. When I was asked to leave the meeting room, I just thought maybe they wanted to come back with more questions or, you know, say I hadn't gone well, whatever. But, yeah, no, that was the. I took that as a good sign. I thought, well, actually, if I'm being whisked up there, the interview must have gone relatively well because I'm sure they would present me to shake sword if it hadn't gone so well. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. You'd hope that he would be towards the end of the cycle of the interview round. 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah. 

Paul Marden: Not doing the early sifting of CVs. 

Paul Griffiths: No. He certainly had seen who I was because he asked me some questions about where I'd worked and. Okay, things like that. So he'd obviously seen a CV. He's a very. I mean, I've met him subsequently a few times. I've been fortunate to be a dinner hosted by him a couple of weeks ago. But he is a very, very intelligent man. Works really hard. I mean, work. He, you know, for him, he spends every minute working on the emirate. He ruled, he. He's the ruler. But he's almost a. It's a sort of combo, I guess he's all Prime Minister at the same time as being the ruler. So he is constantly working. You know, I'm really committed and I'm lucky in many ways that where I am working at the Heritage Village is his real. 

Paul Griffiths: One of his real pet projects that he's really driving forward. So, yes, we come with sort of royal. Royal approval, if you like. So. Yeah. 

Paul Marden: Excellent. So I. I've not been to the Emirates before, so for those of us that have not been, tell us a little bit about Ras Al Khaimah, of course. 

Paul Griffiths: Well, Ras Al Khaimah is one of the quieter Emirates mentioned. Sheikh Saud there, he's really driving a sort of, you know, a sort of agenda of bringing in more tourists. But he wants to use culture and territory as part of that. So, you know, it's a more relaxed, low level, if that makes sense. It's not Dubai, it's not full on, it's more relaxed Emirate. It's relaxed in cultural and many of the ways it's not, as you know, some of the other Emirates are, for example, completely dry. Ras Al Khaimah has given licenses to hotels and big restaurants in hotels for serving drinks. And there are a number of sellers where you can purchase for your consumption your own home, whereas Sharjah, you can't purchase any alcohol, for example, so it's a bit more chilled like that. It's a lovely place. 

Paul Griffiths: We're very fortunate to have the heavier mountains go through the far side of Ras Al Khaimah. So where I'm based is more on the seafront but then not, you know, I can see the mountains behind and there's a number of drives up into the mountains which are absolutely fabulous. Up to the Jebel Jais, which is the highest point in the UAE, we have the world's longest and fastest zip wire. I have not gone anywhere near that yet. Goes up to 100km an hour and is the longest over from the top of the mountain, whisking you off to the other side. I think it looks terrifying. But my. 

Paul Marden: I'm more interested in cables that take you to the top of the mountain. Maybe with some skis on my feet than I am attaching myself to a cable and going down the mountain. Doesn't sound like fun to me. 

Paul Griffiths: There's a toboggan ride as well up there as well.

Paul Marden: Oh, I'd love that. 

Paul Griffiths: So that's the toboggan ride's on my to do list when the family get off, I'll save it for then and take my son Barney on that. But you know, there's all this sort of venture sports up on the top of the mountain and driving up there is remarkable. They put a proper road in. It's not the scary driving up the Alps, terrified what's going to come around the other corner. It's very like driving up a road, you know, normal sort of dual carriageway, two lanes each way and then right going through the mountains to the other side to one of the other Emirates for Jazeera , for example. So you're over on the Indian Ocean side Gulf Vermont. That road is just beautiful. There's no traffic on it, you know. 

Paul Griffiths: So Ras Al Khaimah is only about an hour and hour to an hour and a half from Dubai airport. And Dubai is a sort of people go to Dubai in the same way that we, you know, you'd go to London, I'd go to London when I was in Port Soviet, we would. It's now, you know, it's not considered a. There's always someone from work who's in Dubai every day almost for some reason. So nipping up to Dubai, I was like, I went to a dinner there last week and you know, it just seemed very normal that he jumped in a car and drove up to Dubai and came back that evening. Whereas. Seems remarkable actually to be doing that. But yeah, so because of where we are, Abu Dhabi is about two and a half hours away.

Paul Griffiths: And we are the northern point of the Emirate, So we border on to Oman, split into a number of areas. Again, I didn't know any of this till I got here, but there's a part of Oman that's at the top of Ras Al Khaimah. And so, yeah, so it's a beautiful Emirate with nature, with mountain areas, which does get a bit chillier when you go up the mountains. I looked quite silly in my T shirt and shorts when I went up there on a Sunday afternoon. People were going past me like they were going skiing. You know, people wore coats and hats and looking at me as if I'm really daft. But I was still. It's interesting that because it's winter obviously everywhere here at the moment and at home, but it's. 

Paul Griffiths: People here are often telling me it's a cold day when I'm still standing. I still feel really quite warm. But yeah, finding that sort of

Paul Marden: Talking 30s at the moment for you, aren't we? 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah, it's a little bit. The last couple days have been down in the lower 20s, really comfortable. But when we last weekend, people were getting a bit nervous that summer had come very early because it was hitting the early 30s last week. So I don't know how for me, when we get to August, when it's in the mid, late 40s with real high humidity, I think I'm just going to go from aircon building to aircon building to aircon building.

Paul Marden: I am such a Goldilocks when it comes to that sort of thing. Not too hot, not too cold, it needs to be just right. So I would definitely struggle in that kind of heat. Look, let's talk a little bit about where you are in the new job. So you've taken on the role of CEO of Al Jazeera Al Hamra Heritage Village. So tell me a little bit about the village. Why is this village so historic? 

Paul Griffiths: Well, it's a really interesting one, Paul, because it is very important, but it's not that old. And that's why what coming to me about making it more alive is something that's going to be crucial to us. So the village has been lived in for many years. It was a pearl farming village. So most of the people who worked here were doing pearl farming, which is pretty horrible job to do. You were, again, learning about this. You were jumping off boats, going to the ocean depths for up to three to four minutes. No protection really, apart from a very light shirt and some little bits on your fingers. But actually you're nothing on your eyes. 

Paul Griffiths: So you're having to look through the salt water, find the pearls come up and they were going up and down sometime 15, 16 times or more a day. And there's a fascinating exhibition in Dubai at the Al Shindagha Museum which really does focus on how this worked and how these guys were living. So, so it's a real. So that was the village. So the village had that, it obviously had then had fishing men, merchants making boats, merchants selling, trading wares. And Ras Al Khaimah has been quite a strategic part as all of the UAE really for the sort of trades coming from the Middle east and out into the Gulf. So the villages was being lived in up until the very early 70s. 

Paul Griffiths: Up in the 1970s the Al Za'abi tribe who were based here were offered I guess a new life is the only way to look at it in Abu Dhabi with new jobs, with land, with housing and it's just a better way like pearl farming was now being done so much cheaper and easier in the Orient in Japan mainly. So that was, that dropped away. There wasn't the other merchant trading going on. So actually the oil boom basically led the tribe to almost one up sticks and head to Abu Dhabi. And in many ways good story because we're still in touch with quite considerable amounts of the tribes people who were here. Lots of the elders have done wonderful oral histories, videos talking about their lives here. But this village survived as just fell into ruins, but actually wasn't developed. 

Paul Griffiths: And where it becomes important is this would have been what all of the Gulf would have looked like before the oil boom. The UAE wasn't a wealthy nation before then. You know, when I went up to Dubai and spent some time at the Etihad Museum, which is based around which Etihad Union is the not Around Man City Stadium should point out very much around about how the UAE had come together and how, you know, so it wasn't the wealthiest nation, but actually they discovered oil. They then brought seven Emirates together. It then has flourished in the ways that we now know what Dabi and ifwe looks like and even Ras Al Khaimah in some parts and really quite glamorous. But this village survived. 

Paul Griffiths: So although it fell into ruin, all the other fishing, farmhome fishing, pearl farming villages across the Gulf had become, just got destroyed, knocked down, you know, turned into hotels and high rises. And actually when you visit the other Emirates, lots of them are now recreating their historic areas or re purposing some of the historic buildings and they're doing it very well. In Dubai, Sharjah has actually completely rebuilt. It's what it calls the Harp Sharjah, which is. Which was its historic sort of areas, but. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Paul Griffiths: But this survived. Many of the buildings had fallen into disrepair. And what we've been doing for the last few years, as the Al Qasimi Foundation and the Department of Antiquities and Museums is restoring a number of these buildings, we've then sort of gone into a sort of activation so you can walk around. So we've got, you know, carving now. Only a year ago it was mostly sand. We've now got a path going through it, so you can walk in. And the job that I've really been asked to do initially on arrival here is to really push that activation forward and really look at my sort of. What I've done in the past and what we've seen other places do and think about what can we do to bring this bit more to life? 

Paul Griffiths: Because it’s the sort of storage village is around the 1970s. Well, it was abandoned in the 1970s. Well, you know, for us from the UK, from lots of other nationalities, actually, something in the 70s isn't very old. It's in our lifespan. You know, we are looking at this going well, actually. So when I was talking to a lot of. So RAK TDA's basically visit RAK tourism authority. So they are really supportive in wanting to push Al Jazeera Al Hamra Heritage Village, which will from now on abbreviate to AJAH to save me. Keep saying that. Long tanned. So they are really keen that we're doing more stuff. So why would a tourist want to come? What is there to see once you're here? 

Paul Griffiths: On top of some abandoned and now beautifully restored houses, mosques, you know, things that you would have expected in a village of, you know, a thousand or so population, 500 houses, you know, so more than a thousand people, really. So that's the sort of plan in that way. So in many ways I've got a sort of blank canvas to play with. But, you know, money's not unlimited, so it's about. So working closely with local communities, working with, you know, local traders, looking at what could we bring into the village on the back of the art fair. I know we'll talk about later, but it's, you know, this has been a. This is a real challenge for me to. How do I take this sort of place forwards.

Paul Marden: In my mind's eye, we go to the Weald & Downland Living Museum so open air museum, lots of houses recreating life through the ages. Is that the sort of experience that I'm going to get if I come to the village of I'm going to see the properties and I'm going to see this previous way of life come to life in front of me?

Paul Griffiths: Well at the moment you'll see you just see in the houses and the buildings but you're walking around looking at historic buildings but we have got a number of the houses we've put in. Each video is at the moment showing the audio visuals so you can walk around and listen to members of the tribes chatting about their youth and what's happening and you can see the buildings in real life. I guess what I'm looking for this is telling the story a little bit of the village which we don't initially do that well at the moment that's no criteria. Yes, this is what we need to do going forward. There's been several stages of activation When I came last August part not many the paths weren't all finished. We didn't have anywhere for visitor services to be at the front.

Paul Griffiths: We only had a very small sort officey area which has now been built up to where I'm. Where I'm sat today. So I think what you're going to get is a multi as a blend of traders who will be in our suitcase. The Souk is fully restored sooke and shopping market area so that's my first point is to move some people in there. So I've already got a goldsmith and move to her studio in got some handicrafts we've got some textile people moving in the. 

Paul Griffiths: The main gallery of Nassau Heyman Design Gallery which is the one big gallery where artists can go is going to have a sort of satellite shop if you like not shop a satellite so there will be pieces of work there are in here with their little souvenir store which they sell because they get people a lot of what the design gallery does is making souvenirs of Ras Al Khaimah that are all handmade so quite special gifts. So what we're hoping is tying up with our local hoteliers who many of which have not been so it's bringing them in and they need something more to see to send their guests here. 

Paul Griffiths: So you know talking to some of them over lunch when I hosted some of them on Saturday it was a case of you know actually, can they send their clients and say, you can do all your holiday shopping because at the moment they're sending people to the shopping malls which are just, you know, nice, but actually merchandise them to go to a heritage village, get that experience of what the golf would have been like and bags of shopping at the same time. 

Paul Marden: So who doesn't love a. A museum gift shop at the end? So, you know. 

Paul Griffiths: Exactly. And we don't really have that here at the moment from an Al Jazeera perspective. So on my plan for this year is to put in. We've got an info booth, as it's called at the moment. It's not a world. It's not the best customer service friendly. It's like a caravan but with some windows. And yeah, it's probably a better. Now it's got air conditioning. Yes. But it doesn't work very well for customers. You're trying to talk through little windows because you can only have small windows to keep the air con working, not have too much open to. It's just passing out. 

Paul Griffiths: So, yeah, so I'm looking at building this summer, hopefully. Fingers crossed, touch wood, a visitor welcome centre, which is something we're really pushing along with, which will be lovely because that will be that proper visitor welcome with a shop with an induction into an introduction. Sorry, into the Al Jazeera story. And then let people go. And then when they get to the far end, they'll be the souk full of. He says again, hopefully slowly filling them out, but full of traders and local craftspeople and people who are. Even if they're not originally local, they're based in rack, so they are considered local. The UAE is built up of a lot of expat population. When I say expats, I mean just English people from around the world. It's a really accepting, welcoming community. I've been really. Everyone says hello to you as you're walking into the supermarket shops. There's no. Whoever they are where you're from. 

Paul Griffiths: Everyone's talking to each other because the local population know they've had to bring people in because there's thousands more jobs than there are Emirati population in Ras Al Khaimah. So, you know, it's always been. And when you look at the foundation of the UAE, it was about, we will need to bring people in to bring this. To build this nation with us. So, you know, it's been always a sort of welcome and melting pot of different people. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, amazing. Look, you mentioned when we had our initial chat. You've been there now three months, you've been doing lots of visiting of other attractions. Because I think you said to me, which I thought was quite interesting, that you were. There's lots that you bring with you from the UK in your experience, but there's lots of best practice and good practice happening within the Emirates already. So you've been kind of going out and visiting a lot of cultural venues and attractions in the Emirates. Tell me a little bit about those. 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah, so it's been a minute of a manic last month in February, because we've had the art festival. I know we're going to keep hinting at it, we'll get to it at some point, but when I've had some time away, what's been fabulous, it's just sort of. And I think as well, because the family aren't here in my own at the moment, said, “All right, I've got some time off, let's go and explore.” Yeah. So I've sort of driven across to Fajera, spent time in Sharjah and took myself up for a weekend in Dubai, which was fantastic. Booked a very reasonably priced hotel and just spent a weekend flowering around everywhere and just really immersed in my. So and only scratch the surface. There's so much more to see. So, yeah, so I've been going and looking at. 

Paul Griffiths: Well, you know, I don't want to do something that's not. There'll be alien to, obviously, the culture here. And that's been really. What's been great fun in the last few months is it's not just going into a new job, you know, and learning that. It's actually been a terrifying, at some points, fabulous experience. I was learning new cultures, new working lives. You know, things are working. It's done very differently here. You know, there's a different hierarchical process we have in the UK and permissions are needed in different places. And that's not. I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing, it's just learning those different things. So I've been learning all these different cultures. You know, we're just coming into Ramadan, which I've had no real experience with before. And that is. That is a massive thing here. You know, it's the month. 

Paul Griffiths: Every billboard you go past is someone trying to sell something for Ramadan, whether it be a new chest of drawers, you know, your family needs this new dining table for Ramadan. It's a bit like, you know, you will see at Christmas at home, everyone catching on, you know, IKEA will be saying, new table and chairs for Christmas. You know, it's. It's not. It's a sort of different repeating itself. You know, those sort of signs you have around the supermarket. Christmas back home. They're all up now in supermarkets here for Ramadan. 

Paul Marden: Right. 

Paul Griffiths: Encouraging what people are going to buy for when they break the fast at sunset Iftar. So, you know, so it's all sort of promoting. You need this for. So it's a real. We're going to a massive thing. And that's been a real sort of learning, cultural thing for me, which has been great because actually I've always enjoyed, when I'm traveling, learning about other cultures, you know, it's always been for me, I always try and visit museums, galleries, learn about the place I'm at. And so actually living somewhere and learn about someone who's been. I think it's added to the fun of the experience. But back to your question. 

Paul Griffiths: Yes, I've been traveling wherever the possibility to start to look at other historic venues, looking at where they've, you know, restored historic markets and souk areas and what sort of things are going in there, what are people doing there. Up in Dubai, there is a place called Al Shindagar Museum, which is where they've. Some of the historic buildings that have been saved by the creek of Dubai have been turned into the most amazing series of museums, is the only way I can describe it, because each house is a different gallery or different theme. So you have the story of the creek being built up, the story of Dubai seafarers. There was a faith and. Faith and religion room, talking about Islam and different cultures, how that's worked around Dubai. 

Paul Griffiths: Dubai being built up as a city, lots about the rulers and families, but every house you went to is a different place. What was so impressive there from a visitor experience perspective was the training that Stafford had was sensational. You know, you go into someone, you think they're obviously being managed really well because obviously this is. You don't just train. So obviously someone oversees this really well. But clearly the training, everywhere you went, the customer service was exceptional. People coming out from behind counters, giving you introductions, making sure you had everything needed, you know, as you were leaving. Have you got any questions? All those things we try and all have tried to teach over the years, and in many ways we've all been different levels of success of that. 

Paul Griffiths: But what was amazing was they also got the security guards in on the act as well, because there's a real culture here that there's a separate, they're secure, they're very different. You know, there's, we've got them here, they're in very much brown security, clearly marked, you know, protecting places. But what they've done there is they had clearly trained those security guards as well, because every security guard you came across was getting in the act of chatting to visitors, even if their English wasn't brilliant, they were really keen to direct you to the next. Come this way. So the next place, oh, you finished that room, you must go upstairs. And you know, that sort of. 

Paul Griffiths: And whether they, you know, really just said, look, you can have a much more interesting day than just standing, staring at people walking around. You can actually chat to visitors from around the world and get talkative. And I just had the most amazing. I ended up in this museum for over five and a half hours or something silly like that. And I thought I was going to be there an hour because it was priced very reasonably. You know, when you judge a museum on, well, actually I paid this, I'm probably going to be here for that amount of time. And actually it was just, you know, I found myself stopping for a coffee, stopping for lunch. But I was so impressed by the way the staff interacted. 

Paul Griffiths: They also had a number of cultural local guides as well, who really were, you know, in the full sort of Emirati national dress, but wanted to press on. This is where. This is what I'm doing. So I've some, you know, I traveled across to Fujairah every week and was in a, an old, what was the ruler's summer house. And the guy, and the guy who ran it just took me on a tour. I didn't ask for a tour. He just said, would you. Well, he said, should I take you around? Yes, please. And we had this great hours experience as he was just chatting about all the rooms. And I think people here are very keen to share their culture and their heritage and very welcoming. 

Paul Griffiths: So, yeah, so I've done quite a bit traveling around the other parts of the UAE. I can't go out of the UAE because I've only got a hire car at the moment, so I can't go out to Omar, that's on my list. You get yourself a car. I can travel north of the border into Oman and explore that. But for now, seven emirates to. So no shortage of places. And I've not been up to Abu Dhabi yet, so still with that on my list. So yeah, 

Paul Marden: Wowzers. Okay. So I guess, and this is completely, what would I feel like if I was in your position of going to this new country, immersing myself in this relatively new place that you're leading? How do I say this without flattering you? You were a well connected guy. If I went to events, everybody knew you. You had this wide network of people having worked in the UK in the attraction sector for a long time and you've now jumped over to the UAE. What's happened to the network? How does that feel? I mean it must feel slightly kind of worrying or nerve wracking. What have you done to build the network in this new place? 

Paul Griffiths: There's a number of points to that. Right, so let's answer in a few minutes. So the world's a smaller place so I'm still occasionally having teams call zoom calls with really close ex colleagues, friends, you know, I'm sure, I mean I always say I'm sure but everyone keeps saying, “Oh I'm really loving the journey so please keep posting. So I am going to keep posting and probably going to start to annoy people after a while”, but the feedback so far is everyone saying we're loving the journey and following you with it and feel like we're on the journey. So I will carry on. I'm sort of keeping writing stuff up and sharing it and also I don't know how long I'll be here for. You know, probation is massive over here. I have to keep my fingers crossed. 

Paul Griffiths: I pass probation which is a six month period because it's a real right the UAE all not just off and across the UAE. It's a real big, you know, much more than at home, much more structured. On day one was given a series and this isn't a bad thing at all, a series of probation tasks, you know, around reports that are around other historic parts because the job that I've come over will eventually evolve into a wider heritage role. But at the moment the real focus is on Al Jazeera Al Hamra, which is great. Get one site, get it going, then see where we go next. So I think I'm still connected to lots of people back home. I'm still looking, seeing everyone's posts and enjoy. 

Paul Griffiths: I mean my usual jealousy of not being part of the ALVA network anymore as they're all having that great time in Belfast in the last couple of days and seeing everyone's post, not just one or two, but everyone you know, Bernard down with you know everyone's post. I wish I was there with them.

Paul Marden: The FOMO was real. So I had Andy Povey in the office with me yesterday and we're both saying the FOMO about that ALVAe vent was very real for both of us having. 

Paul Griffiths: Having spent. You know I was at the Mary Rose few years where we joined ALVA and go experiencing those council weeks and knowing just hey how much they are great for networking A. You get very spoiled because every host wants to really show off what they can do and I think the Titanic always do that because we go there before for a council meeting but it's. Yeah. So you still see this stuff. So it's still sit home and there's still people I can reach out to.

Paul Marden: Of course.

Paul Griffiths: If we need to and I'm still calling on people things, you know, different projects we're doing here. But then again it's about slowly building up that network here and I think there's a slightly. You know, there's a. Within Ras Al Khaimah I've started making connections with lots of other people in the Heritage world and. And outside that. So we're already, you know, connecting up with different people from different parts of Ras Al Khaimah, the work we're going to do moving forward and for me I think it's been just a. I'm sort of still pinching myself I'm here and that sort of. So many things keep happening and you know. The weather's been gorgeous because I've come out of a grim English weather to this quite nice winter here where it's mostly been late mid-20s. 

Paul Griffiths: You're in she and shorts when you're off duty. You know, there's other things. The thing that really surprised me is how smart actually the dress code is for business over here. 

Paul Marden: Okay. 

Paul Griffiths: So I had to sort of all the usual brands that from home Mount Marks is next everything here so you could order online and get it delivered quite quickly. So I had sort of came out of one wardrobe thinking I was going to be far more in polo shirt and linen trousers are sort of very sort of summer at Painshill look, you know outdoor. But actually yeah my colleagues are still. Because of the aircon atmosphere. Lots of colleagues particularly in the head office are in suits. A bit like where I would have been when back in my London days. When we’re in the office you were in a shirt tie. So yes, I had to sort of buy A back home wardrobe almost once I got traveled out with very lightweight clothing. So yes, it's a bit different in that sense. 

Paul Marden:  Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about life as an expat. How have you found the transition? 

Paul Griffiths: Fine so far. I say there's lots of bits around work and practice and you know, no amount of inductions will be able to help you on some little faux pas you can make about not realising where you need approvals for staff. And obviously coming from the. For the last six years of being director of Painshill and only from feeding into a board of directors, board of trustees who we'd see quarterly and you know, I chat to the chairman every week. There was a lot of me sort of making those sort of decisions instantly was here, you know, particularly as were part of the foundation and we are representing Sheikh Saud as his name's in the title of the organization now, making sure we're going through those tick sheets. 

Paul Griffiths: You know, if I want to do anything that needs to spend more money, that's out budget, that is going to his Highness to be signed off. So any projects we're doing, we're needing to make cases to the highest man in the country to actually get those, you know, sign offs and things. And I'm not, that's not a bad thing. But you know, it's just that from an expat I guess it's getting used to. Everything's available here. Not the big supermarket up the road sells Waitrose and Marxist products and has a room at the back for non Muslims where you push the button, door opens, it's like a little bit of a naughty boys room. 

Paul Griffiths: You push back door open, slides you walk in and there's the pork heaven, you know, there's bacon, there's pork scratching, patays, you know, all because it's a real, you know, it's not just there's so many expats here, particularly from the Philippines and stuff who obviously pork is a big part of their diet. So yeah, that's available. I said earlier on there's cellars where you can pick up a great beer or a couple of glasses of bottle of wine or whatever you want. So actually it's not that I found myself flying into this really different world and I'm not really. 

Paul Marden:  It's a melting pot, isn't it? 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah. And I'm not someone who's ever been since very young, you know, going off to nightclubs or anything like that. But if you wanted that There is that. The hotels. So actually, if you're a younger person coming out and you wanted that nightlife, the hotels, particularly on Margin island and Minnal Arab, the tubing hotels have really nice restaurants, fully licensed clubs and stuff. But, you know, actually I found sort of the work is busy. Everyone's, you know, lots going on, actually, just going back to, you know, I was in a hotel for the first two months, which wasn't a dreadful thing because it was an apartment hotel. So, yeah, I had enough and now we've moved. I've moved into a villa ready for the family. Come out hopefully in about a month's time.

Paul Marden:  Oh, that'd be exciting. 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah. So that's nice. So we've got the back onto the golf course. It's quite, you know, it's a nice place to be. It's going to be nice and, you know. 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah, so I've not struggled adapting because it's not. It's not that, you know, normally I've got a wonderful team here, Asia, you know, so with one Emirati and some Filipinos and other people from around the. From around the world. So that's been nice. And it's melting pot of learning their cultures as well as the local culture and. Yeah. And then they eat rice with everything. So it's. Yeah. Every lunchtime there's a bowl of rice, big bowl of salad in the main course and there's me pouring on the one on the salad, everyone else on the rice. But, yeah, it's been great, Paul. I mean, I can't. It's been one of those. Every moment you think this is just a great place to be. 

Paul Marden: Good. Let's go back to Al Jazeera and talk a little bit about some of the events that have been going on. So I know you're coming to the end of the Ras Al Khaimah Art Festival. Tell me a little bit about that and how well that's gone. 

Paul Griffiths: It's been brilliant. I know. I had no idea what to expect. First time for this. So this is the 13th International Art Fair. It started off back in the small museum back in the city of Central Town, moved to here, I think, five years ago is what I'm saying, and slowly grown every year since then. So this is the biggest one we've done, really. Lots of massive sponsors on board from across the Emirates, actually fully supported by His Highness, who's been here at least four times, if not five, since we've had the vessel. He was here at the opening ceremony for the big launch, you know it was, and it was like a proper opening ceremony. 

Paul Griffiths: Everyone sat round with a band and speakers and you know like not quite Olympics but you know it was a proper event. This is the opening of it and it felt like a big event. Yeah. All my female members of my team had, were given time off in the day to do hair and makeup. It was proper. Everyone looked, everyone looked the business, it was lovely. You know everyone was scrubbed up from the maintenance team to, you know, our executive director looking fabulous in a brand new dress. You know it was really was. No, I've had a new suit, I got a new suit for the occasion. 

Paul Griffiths: So yeah, it was a lovely evening and then it's rolled ever since and for me it's been wonderful because I've seen people in this village which has been quite quiet since I'd arrived and it's sort of been okay, how are we going to get this? But actually clearly putting something on has attracted a complete cross spectrum audience. So you know, we have people coming in, absolutely fascinating, obsessed with the art, beautiful and it's artists I should say from around the world. It's all exhibited outside or inside the little houses. So you know lots of the pieces have been blown up quite big and quite impressive. I mean do look at it on the website, you know people, you know if you go to ajah.ae you can then click on from there.

Paul Marden: We'll put the links and everything in the show notes so people be able to find that. 

Paul Griffiths: It's been, but it's been, for me it's been fabulous because we've seen so many people in, you know I was, you know, we've had, we've got pop up restaurants so this won't mean anything to people back home but the restaurant called Puro P U R O has a restaurant at the top of the mountain at Jebel Jais. Really almost impossible to get booking, you know you have to book months advance for lunch or dinner. It's the place that everybody, both locals, internationals and tourists want to see and often frequented by his Highness. They've got a pop up restaurant here which just is fabulous. 

Paul Griffiths: They we've had a lovely couple, Kelly and Paolo in running a restaurant called Antica which is a sort of the chef's Italian Paolo but he's lived in Australia so it's a fusion of Australian middle Italy, sort of historic villagey type cuisine with an Emirates twist. But you're just served four or five courses without there's not a menu. It's not a restaurant as such, so it's sort of a sharing experience. But you know, the food is amazing. So I was fortunate to have dinner. Well, I've actually been fortunate enough to have dinner in Antica twice and lunch there as well. But one of the dinners I was then wandering around the village about 10 o'clock at night was full of people, you know, families just. 

Paul Griffiths: There is a different culture over here that people do more stuff in the evenings because of the temperature and a different way of life because the local people aren't obviously, for obvious reasons, down the pub on a Friday night, they're doing stuff with the family and you go past cafes and even outside of the village, you know, 9, 10 o'clock on a Friday night, they're full of people sitting very beautifully dressed in their finest, drinking coffee and eating desserts. That's a big thing. People seem to love coffee and desserts. 

Paul Marden: Okay. 

Paul Griffiths: But, but then of course it's because because of the heat most of the year we'll spend more time indoors resting in the day and then ready to go out at night and do some more stuff. So yeah, so we've had this sort of here in the evenings. It's really fun. What was interesting is our hours for the festival were meant to be midweek. So Monday we always close. Tuesday to Thursday we're meant to be open till 6 o'clock and then Friday, Saturday, Sunday open to 11:00. Often struggling to get people out then the first night. So the Tuesday night was the first night. Medusa goes at 6:00. 5:45, I had a queue of at least 40 people trying to get in. So we just had to make an on the hooves decision. 

Paul Griffiths: We're going to stay open later. And then we just opened till 8:00 in the midweek. We didn't want to push it too much because of obviously from the staff welfare perspective, an hour's work. But actually that first night were just. Myself and Sikrat, who's the director of the festival, Emirati. Wonderful. Emirati has been my cultural bodyguard in many ways because he's been the person, my go to person for what should I do here? What about this person? How should I do this? So Spencer Crouch just stood there. Look at this crowd. We both just said, “Well we can't turf them away. This would be daft.” So yeah, so we've had. And we've had about 40, 000 visitors will have come through the door by the end of the festival in 28 days. 

Paul Griffiths: The artworks then going to stay up in place for Ramadan. So we'll be working different hours again during Ramadan and this is the first time Al Jazeera will ever do. Has ever done anything special for. Because before now it's just been a come and visit, walk in, do what you like, leave now. We're trying to structure that visitor experience. So we're going to be for Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays, because Thursday's the sort of Friday night in many ways. Because a lot of people have Fridays off here. Yes, because of the day of prayers and so a lot of people in Ras Al Hamah go to Dubai and Abu Dhabi for work. So Thursday nights they'll travel back. So actually we're going to be open till midnight on Thursday, Friday, Saturday for Ramadan. 

Paul Griffiths: So people will break the fast with the families and then they want to do the sort of head top of activity. They've now got food back in them and an energy source. And out they come. So again, first time we've done it, hopefully see numbers with the artwork will still be in place. We're then working on some different options around cuisine, food, coffee and hopefully get some musicians in as well, just to give a bit of an atmosphere. But it is a holy month, so it's not. It's not parties, but it's enjoying the family. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So what does the future look like for the Heritage Village and for tourism and attractions more generally in RAK? 

Paul Griffiths: I think for RAK itself, we're trying to bring more tourists in then trying to get the most hotels. Interestingly, as they had a lunch with five of our local big hotels at the weekend using. Using our Antico restaurant, this is excuse to have another lunch there and invite some people in and just take on their views, which is great. So just chatting and getting their thoughts on it. They were saying what. What happens in Iraq a lot at the moment is people are finding the hotels through travel agents, through, you know, searches. I know when were looking before I came out here, I know Ras Al Hamra came up on a Thomas Cumbin telescope. Yeah, similar. What am I thinking of? Probably Tui, I guess, or someone like, you know, someone like that. 

Paul Griffiths: I was doing a search for when went to Canary, but up came Ras Al Khaimah as a hotel and what they were saying. A lot of people will book that and have no idea really what Ras Al Khaimah is, other than it's part of the UAE. Some people think it's part of Dubai, you know, actually, because it's not, they don't realize it's seven emirates, etc. So a lot of people are booking their sort of tourists, their hotels. Our job is to try and then get them out and attract them to do other stuff. So there's lots of adventure tourism going on at the moment. We talked about the zip wire and lots of hiking, walking, camel rail, camel riding, you know, trips to the desert where you can zoom around in 4x Fours and go karts and stuff. 

Paul Griffiths: So from my perspective of the Heritage village is about bringing it more alive, bringing more people in, promoting it, more linking up with these sorts of hoteliers, concierges. And this is really early days for us because this has always been sort of slightly done but not really pushed yet. And sort of listening to what their advice is and seeing how we can act upon it, you know, and what sort of stuff we can take forward because, you know, there's a lot to be done. And there's lots of other heritage sites across rat about 90 on the list of actual heritage sites. And some of those are real ruins that you're never going to be able to do anything with. 

Paul Griffiths: Those sort of English Heritage free sites, you know, the ones you stumble across with a little brown sign and you pull up with a lay by, have a potter around and off you go without seeing anyone. There's a bit like that. But then there's a number of sites that will work well with some activation. You know, we've got Dyer Fort, which is on the World Heritage site tentative list and we're working on projects to slowly take that forward to World Heritage status. Touchwood because it's a really important for, you know, and it's perfect for visits. You climb up to the top, you get the most gorgeous views. You know, really is a gorgeous little site. So more interpretation, more things there is what's needed. But you know, again, this is all early days. 

Paul Griffiths: So it's all about sort of, you know, each day's excitement. What can we do, what can we push forward, who can we talk to? And what's been great is as the festival's gone on, more people have been coming and chatting to me. Mine have become more, well known. That sounds wrong, goes back to your sort of earlier question about, you know, people are sort of learning about, oh, this person's here now. Paul said, although people can call me sir or Mr. Paul, which is fine. I can deal with that. Keep saying now, people, I keep saying, please don't call me sir. You really don't need to. But it's so culturally great. But Mr. Everyone see everyone externally, she's called Mr. Paul, so I can put up with that. But I was there. Although when we host his. 

Paul Griffiths: His Highness hosted dinner that I was invited to, I then got even pushed up to His Excellency, which was a title. I want to go. 

Paul Marden: That's quite nice. 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah, I love that. Apparently. I always thought that someone else I knew was his title. His Excellency was part of the family, but actually it's. Once you get to a CEO director level in royal that circle, you immediately become His Excellency, so. 

Paul Marden: Well, there we go. I will correct myself in future communications. 

Paul Griffiths: Please do. Yeah, but I thought it was wonderful. That's why it's just been lovely, the funny comments coming from people back home saying, oh, well, I've amended my entry in my phone to now shake your he status. But yeah, so. But there's a sort of cultural things. It's just. Okay, right, lovely. That's fun. 

Paul Marden: It's been a whirlwind for you. It's been really interesting actually, talking about it and understanding more about. About what's happening there, about how exciting it is, this huge opportunity that you've got to make a something out of this beautiful historic village and then that, you know, the remit will grow from there. So I think. I think this has been lovely. We always wrap up our interviews with a book recommendation and you've had this privilege once before. So have you run out of recommendations or do you have something ready for me? 

Paul Griffiths: Well, I was going to recommend the Red island, an Emirati story, because it's based on Al Jazeera Al Hamra, but I thought that might be a little bit too niche. This guy. So, again, little things have come across. This guy's written a book, Adil, and he's going to be coming to Al Jazeera to do a book reading signing. These little opportunities. I have read the book, I promise. It was actually fascinating because it's all about local culture. It went off in a number of tangents, but actually from a point of view of how the Emirati local culture works and families, it was actually quite a really good induction. But now I've decided to go with a more book for management or book for running. And I don't think anyone's given this before, but if they have, I'm nervous. 

Paul Griffiths: But this book, Fish!, which is one of my favourite books. I've actually launched this as the Al Jazeera Book Club for the spring. So all the team have a copy. Book clubs are massive over here for work. Every department has one here in the foundation. So this book, Fish, is based around the Seattle fish market. My colleagues who've worked me in the past, both. I can hear them groaning now because they've forced everyone to read this, but it's basically around having fun when you're at work. And it talks about the story of the Seattle fish market, how they were just flogging fish, but actually one day decided, we need to liven this up. We need to want to be here. So introduced, sort of involving the crowd, fish flying through the air. 

Paul Griffiths: But It's a more of a story about a woman joins, it moves up in a company into a department that no one's been able to manage. She gets to the bottom of using the fish market. And it's just a really fun, easy reading book. And so I recommend it to. To listeners and viewers. 

Paul Marden: That's brilliant. So listeners, if you would like a copy of Fish,

Paul Griffiths: It's quite a cheap book as well, Paul, so please, you have to give one away. So it's not too much money. It's just 9.99 in the non fiction section. So, yeah, cheaper. 

Paul Marden: Bargain. Bargain. That's the trouble with. So I've been doing a few live events where we have panels, four people with book records, recommendations. That's going to bankrupt me. No, not today. We got a bargain this time. So I like this. Yeah. If you'd like a copy of Fish, if you'd like a copy of Paul's book, head on over to Bluesky and when Wenalyn posts the show note, go over there and repost it and say, I want Paul's book. And the first person to do that will get a copy of the book. Paul, delightful as always. Three times on the podcast, at least. 

Paul Griffiths: I think this would be number. This would be number four because we had the original episode where Kelly grilled me about life at Painshill. Then we did the Turn the Tables episode when I grilled Kelly on setting up podcasts. And then we did. Then we did the Goodbye to Kelly, whatever it was. 100 episode. And then this. Yeah, four Skip the Queues. Which is always a pleasure and I'm so delighted as you're my favourite podcast, obviously.

Paul Marden: It's, oh, you say the nicest things. That must be a record. I need to go back and check that I think four times on the podcast is pretty impressive. 

Paul Griffiths: I think I should get to add all mine up into one as a total so I can beat Dominic Jones, who's always had the biggest number, isn't he? 

Paul Marden: So, yeah, so he does and he still does. So, yeah, I think aggregating the number of listens for across all of your episodes, I think that might be within the walls. Let me see what I can do and I'll add everything up and we'll see if you can take Dom's crown. 

Paul Griffiths: Sorry, Dom. 

Paul Marden:  Because he's not competitive at all. 

Paul Griffiths: No, he's not, mate. He's a great guy, though. So, yeah, a friendly rival. 

Paul Marden: Exactly. Thank you very much, Paul. I would love to keep in touch. 

Paul Griffiths: Let's keep talking. 

Paul Marden: I want to hear what happens not just after the first 90 days, but I want to hear what happens in a year's time and two years time. So thank you so much for coming on and telling us about Ras Al-Khaimah and the Heritage Village. It's been lovely. 

Paul Griffiths: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great. Been a real pleasure. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm. 

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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

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Crowd Convert has been created to provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world class digital interactions that extend their incredibly moving physical experiences into the digital world. Very simply Crowd Convert is here to Rehmanise Commerce

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Kelly Molson - The Lifestyle Agency Advisor

Supporting overwhelmed solo founders who crave long-term sustainable growth, through monthly advisory. Define your niche. Generate leads. Build your pipeline. Founding Rubber Cheese, a lifestyle web development agency in 2003, she grew the agency profitably for over 20 years transforming our success in 2019 by establishing it as the leading web design agency in the visitor attraction sector. She sold the business in 2024, and now support founders building specialist lifestyle agencies to find their own path – agency growth on their terms.

• Gain clarity on direction, mission and positioning to win the right clients
• Become confident in increasing prices and saying no to ‘stuff’ that sucks time and energy
• Feel the excitement of building strategic partnerships that deliver your dream clientsBuild an agency on your terms, choosing profitability over pressure, putting life before work.

Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Well, look who is back. They've let me loose with the microphone again. I might never leave. 

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. 

Kelly Molson: Can I just say that you pretty much called me a queen just before we began recording this, and I think I wear that crown appropriately today. 

Andy Povey: Podcast royalty. 

Kelly Molson: She is back where she belongs in her rightful place on her throne with her microphone. Wow. Thank you. You two have been cooking up something interesting, and I am back here to tease it out of you both today. But because I am in charge again, I get to do things my way, which means Icebreakers are back on the cards. Yay. 

Kelly Molson: I'm so happy to be back here doing this. Right? 

Paul Marden: I've never done one of these. This is so. In all of the time. I know. 

Andy Povey: So I've got something over you now, Paul. 

Kelly Molson: I can't believe this. Even when we did the sessions that were us two, the episodes that were us two. 

Paul Marden: You didn't ask me icebreakers. I am dodged that bullet for two and a half years. 

Kelly Molson:  That's outrageous. Okay, well, then we'll start with you. I would like to know who's your favourite podcast host? Why is it me? 

Paul Marden: Wow. 

Kelly Molson:  No. Genuine question. Genuine question. Okay, so, I mean, obviously it is me. We could put that aside. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. So put a pin in that one. 

Kelly Molson: Put a pin in that. So listen there, I have seen in the last. Well, since we started Skip the Queue back in 2019. Goodness, July 2019, there's been lots of different sector podcasts that have kind of popped up, and they are brilliant. And I'm all for more and more niche podcasts. They are the best kind of podcast. But I want to know, aside from Skip the Queue, what is your second favourite sector podcast? 

Paul Marden: Oh, oh. Attraction Pros is the one for me. I do like listening to the guys at AttractionPros. 

Kelly Molson: They are good. They were around before Skip the Queue. So they're like. For me, they're the ones that we are looking up to in terms of the podcast. 

Paul Marden: We were. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, oh, Podcast Beef. Josh is gonna hear this. He's not going to be happy. Andy, same question to you. What other podcasts you listen to sector wise? 

Andy Povey: So, I mean, that's a really difficult question because. Well, it's not. The answer's none. I don't listen to sector podcasts very much. I become a politics junkie, or I've been a politics junkie for years. 

Kelly Molson: Okay.

Andy Povey: So my podcasts are just full of politics podcast, which in the past two weeks I've stopped listening to. I've turned off completely because the world of politics is just such a mess.

Kelly Molson: It's a car crash.

Andy Povey: Within two minutes of having been published. 

Kelly Molson: What would be normally your go to, like, the regular one that you would listen to? 

Andy Povey: Me being a reluctant remainer. It's all the stuff that hangs over from that. So there's. Oh, God, what now? Quiet riot. The two. Alistair Campbell and Rory Stewart. I can't remember what that one's called right now. 

Paul Marden: The rest is politics. 

Kelly Molson: Rest is politics. Yeah, cool. 

Paul Marden: What about the one with Ed Balls and George Osborne? 

Andy Povey: I tried it and haven't really got into it. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So I'm the opposite way around. So that's the one I like. And I don't like Rest is politics. And I turned out that actually George Osborne is a human being and I quite like the guy. I'd go for a drink with him. Who knew? 

Kelly Molson: This is no news. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: I wonder if he'd like to go for a drink with you. 

Paul Marden: Probably no.

Andy Povey: I'm sure he'll be delighted to hear that when he listens to this. 

Paul Marden: When these politicians, when they give up their day job and they return to normal life and then you hear them on programmes, they're actually quite relatable and you think, why could you not capture that relatability when you were actually doing the job? 

Andy Povey: Well, it's actually a key part of the job, isn't it? It's the only thing you need to be good at as a politician. 

Kelly Molson: You would think, “Oh, could I could make a good politician then?” I'm just generally nice to people. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. What would be your policies, Kelly? What would you do? What would you bring in? 

Kelly Molson: Oh, new policies. Oh, well, that's a very good question. I have one about mobile phones and people walking and looking at them at the same time, which I would ban because I generally just want to kick people. 

Kelly Molson: You know when you, like on the tube and you've got to get somewhere and you've just got people walking up the stairs in front of you, like, whilst looking at their phone, like, I want to swipe their legs away. So something around that they would be useful. It would make me happy anyway. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. 

Kelly Molson: Make some other people happy, too. Who knows? Good. Okay. Glad that went there. Second question. This is a good one. It's coming up to. Well, I mean, it's already started, isn't it? Conference season has kicked in well and truly. You're at NFAN. That's really the start of it. I am going to be at the Association for Cultural Enterprise Conference in March. So looking forward to seeing everybody. I'm going to be at the awards do as well. I've been judging the awards. 

Paul Marden: Have you really? 

Kelly Molson: Yes, there was a lot in my category, I'm not going to lie. That took a lot longer than I was expecting it, but it was really fun. And the short list of finalists is out now if you haven't seen it. And it's an amazing list. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing who the winners are. But I would like to know what is the worst food you've ever been served at a conference? Because let's face it, can be a bit dodge, can't it? 

Andy Povey: So this sticks in my mind. It was an awful experience. We were at Port Sunlight up in. Actually not that far from Liverpool where the ACE conference is going to be in March. And it was pretty close, pretty soon after lockdown and it was almost like the caterers just looked in the freezer to see what they've got left over and no other conference had been there and then just put it all out at the same time. And it was all beige and it was just such mixture. 

Kelly Molson: Hang on a minute, hang on a minute. Let's not dis beige food because I'm not gonna let. I am a bit of a fan of beige food. So if you. If there was a conference that basically the lunch was made up of like kids party food, that would be the best conference I'd ever been to. Like sausage rames. 

Andy Povey: As long as you can have half a grapefruit covered in tin foil with cocktail sticks with cheese and pineapple stuff in it. 

Kelly Molson: No pineapple, I'm allergic, that would kill me. 

Paul Marden: But cheese tinned pineapple, it's got to be. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, tin pineapple is actually okay. Weirdly, that wouldn't kill me. So yeah, I would be down. I know, it's weird, I know. It's just fresh pineapple. Who knew?

Kelly Molson: So little classed. 

Paul Marden:  Still loves the sausage roll and a scotch egg. 

Andy Povey: That's fine. Sausage rolls and scotch eggs, absolutely no problem. It's when you mix them with onion barges and samosas and Chinese spring rolls and. 

Paul Marden: Sounds like every Boxing Day lunch I've ever been to. 

Kelly Molson: I'm not going to lie, it actually sounds like my dream conference. Paul, over to you. 

Paul Marden: Conferences that serve you food that you cannot eat with one hand. 

Andy Povey: Yes. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So pasta with a sloppy sauce. Why would you do that to me? I mean, I am not the best eater. I need a bib at most times, but if I'm out in public, I don't want garlic bread, I don't want saucy food. I want stuff I can shovel crack quickly and politely. I mean, as politely as you can shuffle food, but, you know.

Kelly Molson: I'm with you on this. Like, what is wrong with the sandwich? Yeah, genuinely, I don't feel like we need to push the boundaries of conference food. I'm happy with stuff that you can pick up with one hand and eat comfortably. 

Kelly Molson: Stuff that, you know, you're confident that you can sit because let's face it, you get quite upright cos. And personal to people at conferences, don't you, when you're trying to, you know, it's not. Let's not be overloading them with garlic or anything. 

Kelly Molson: Delightful, you know? Yep, exactly. I don't know, I still, I keep going back to the whole party food. I think kids parties have got the right idea. Party rings, sausage rolls, scotch eggs. 

Paul Marden: And what sits that you can put in your mouth like a walrus. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, you know my party tricks. Brilliant, guys. Okay, listen, unpopular opinions are back for one time only. So, Andy, what you’ve got for me? 

Andy Povey: So mine's food related and it's probably more unpopular in my house than it is anywhere else, but Chinese food is massively overrated. 

Paul Marden: Behave. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I'm very on the fence about this one. 

Andy Povey: My kids love it, but the things they love are all the stuff that come with the sugar sauces. So lemon chicken, the sweet and sour chicken balls, all that kind of stuff. We good? So we mean, I don't need dessert and the main meal at the same time. 

Paul Marden: So we're talking English approximations of Chinese food from the takeaway. Yeah.

Andy Povey: Nothing very sophisticated. 

Kelly Molson: I'm afraid I feel like that is all the stuff that I used to like, but now if you served me up a big plate of all of that stuff, it'd be like, oh, God, I'm gonna, I'm this. I'm gonna really struggle with this and I'm gonna be up in the night, aren't I? 

Paul Marden: I'm basically just a nine year old. Because it sounds like my idea of heaven. Sweet and sickly, deep fried. What's not to love? 

Kelly Molson: All right, well, let's see how our listeners feel about the whole Chinese debate. Paul, what about you? What you got? 

Paul Marden: The best radio station, is in fact Radio 4. 

Andy Povey: I agree with you 100%. 

Paul Marden: So that's not a controversial opinion. I thought that was going to be massively controversial. They've been podcasting for about 100 years. They podcasted long before there was really a podcast. It's all just spoken voice. So if I got trapped on a desert island, my luxury would be a Radio 4 on a radio to listen to because there's always a variety of stuff that you can listen to. 

Kelly Molson: Do you not listen to any of the other? 

Paul Marden: I do quite like. I quite like Greg James in the morning. 

Kelly Molson: I love Greg. I am a Radio 1 fan. 

Paul Marden: So have you listened to Greg on Radio 4? 

Kelly Molson: No, I know he does do that. 

Paul Marden: But, yeah, he's got a program on Radio 4 where he delves through the BBC archives. Rewinder, it's called, and it's brilliant. I love it. It's Greg James. Funny, combined with the novelty of listening to new things on Radio 4. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, all right, well, I'll give that a go. Yeah. I'm not fully sold on the Radio 4. I do like it. 

Paul Marden: But if I've got three or four hours in the car, up to a meeting and then another three or four hours to drive back afterwards, I'd rather listen to Radio 4 than Radio 1 because I won't get repeats of stuff. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I definitely am with you on that. And I would not. Yeah, I would not listen to Radio 1 for that length of time for that reason. Well, I'm. I did used to like. What was the pop quiz? Was that on Radio four? No, that was radio. 

Paul Marden: That was Radio 2. 

Kelly Molson: It was two, wasn't it? Sorry, I'm getting my radios mixed up. 

Paul Marden: Getting your old person radio mixed up. 

Kelly Molson: If I'm honest, I quite like a little bit of magic every now and again, but that really does age me. It's quite gentle. It's calming. When you've had a three and a half year old toddler screaming at you in the car for a while, it's quite nice to put something neutral on. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. 

Kelly Molson: Thank you. Thank you for indulging, actually. 

Paul Marden: That was enjoyable. 

Kelly Molson: You're welcome. 

Andy Povey: That's why she likes doing them. 

Kelly Molson: All right, listen, let's get to the good stuff. I mean, everyone likes that bit. Let's face it, they've missed it, they want me back. But let's get to the actual route of why we're supposed to be here. 

Andy Povey: So I have another unpopular opinion that sort of leads in as a segue to where we were going. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, for God's sake, who's in control of this podcast? Me. Go on, then. 

Andy Povey: So this unpopular opinion is that if you're an attraction operator, you don't want a ticketing system. 

Kelly Molson: Excellent segue. 

Andy Povey: We were just talking about conferences. There are sessions in conferences and one of my favourite conferences I go to is the Ticketing Professionals Conference. But there are sections in each of these conferences on how to find a ticketing system, how to choose your ticketing system supplier, how to get a better relationship with your ticketing system. And in my opinion, an attraction operator doesn't want one. They want happy guests who are giving them lots of money to come and have great experiences. They don't care how it happens. 

Kelly Molson: It's true. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, definitely. But are you dissing ticketing professionals and saying basically the sessions you're putting on a rubbish no one gives them? 

Andy Povey: No, no, no. There's a certain section of society that really enjoys it. So I describe this as. When I go to B and Q to look for a drill, I'm one of the geeks that actually wants to understand how the drill works and how fast it is and all that kind of stuff. But the majority of people going to buy a drill don't want a drill. They want a hole. 

Kelly Molson: Want a hole. 

Andy Povey: Yeah. So he's an attraction operator. You don't want a ticketing system. You want happy customers who are giving you lots of money and having great experiences. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, right. So that was a great segue into where I was going. Look, you two, you two have been thick as thieves for a good few months, if not longer, and there's been something cooking up between the two of you. 

Kelly Molson: I have had a little bit of privy to understand what's been going on, but this is the first time that you've actually got to the point of talking about it openly and publicly, isn't it? And that why you've got me back on, basically, is to grill you on what you're doing. So spill up, fess up. What have you been doing in the background, the two of you? 

Paul Marden: Well, this all came about after a lunch that Andy and I had in August of last year, where were putting the world to rights and figuring out what do attractions need to do with their ticketing, what do they need to do with their websites, and what could we do to try to improve things? And Andy had thought lots about this stuff and he prepared me. It's quite the lunch. He prepared me a PowerPoint presentation for lunch. 

Kelly Molson: Wow. Like when you want your mum and dad to get you a dog. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. Can we make this happen? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, it was. It was his wish list. Clearly, this PowerPoint has been worked on for many years because there was lots of wishes, lots of ideas, and being the developer at heart that I am, I'm like, how hard can that be? It's only a website. Surely we can do this. Surely we can do it. We've done bits of it before and we started to think about where we could go with stuff that had long predates me. Yeah. There are elements of Rubber Cheese that you and Wag were working on for years, probably prior to the merger with Carbon Six. But it's been a really challenging market. 

Paul Marden: And getting out there and meeting people and talking about some of these elements of E commerce and ticketing, sales and personalisation and things like that we're going to talk about in a minute are quite hard to sell into people when it's a challenging market. And it seemed like, well, that was our first date and we thought that it could be a marriage made in heaven for the two of us, because Andy's got a lot of understanding of the sector and the needs and the challenges and who would benefit from this sort of technology. And I'm in the lucky position after having merged Carbon Six and Rubber Cheese, of having some of this technology that we could then develop. So it was a seed that grew from there, really, wasn't it, Andy? 

Andy Povey: Yeah. And he's carried on growing. I mean, the intent behind it all was that everything is just so disjointed at the moment. So if you're a big theme park with accommodation and a decent retail and decent catering, food and beverage offering, you're looking at seven or eight different systems that you need to run your business and someone needs to plug all of those together to get a good guest experience. And unless you're the size of Merlin or Disney or Universal, with lots and lots of resource to apply to plugging these systems together, it just doesn't happen. Which is why we're still not delivering the Best in class Omni Channel experience to people who are coming out for a day out. 

Kelly Molson: I think this is a really exciting conversation. And if I think back to some of the conversations that we were having prior to me leaving Rubber Cheese, Paul,it's exactly the challenge that they were having. You know, thinking back to a particular pitch where there's a historic house, there was a plague playground, there was a golf course, there was a spa, there was a hotel, there was something else. And all of these things had so many different systems that were running them and there wasn't really a way to facilitate bringing them all together. And that's the challenge because that's exactly what they need. But they weren't of the scale to be able to invest in the infrastructure to be able to do that. But it is exactly what they needed. 

Kelly Molson: So is this thing that you've built, or in the process of building and developing, going to solve that problem for people? 

Andy Povey: That's the objective. 

Paul Marden: That was a very guarded statement, wasn't it? That was a politician's answer. I think the answer that were just groping for then was yes. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, it is.

Andy Povey: Yes. 

Kelly Molson: It's exactly the answer that I wanted. 

Andy Povey: We're forming a company that we're calling Crowd Convert and we'll put a link to the URL and website and all that kind of stuff in the show notes. And the objective behind CrowdConvert is that we will make this all work together. It's a journey. We don't have it today. It doesn't exist. I worked for Merlin Entertainment for the two source group for 18 years now. We had lots of resource in comparison to smaller attractions, but we still didn't make it happen. So it doesn't exist out there at the moment and we're going to build it. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, so we've got Andy, we've got an industry veteran. Hope you don't mind me. 

Andy Povey: Not at all. 

Kelly Molson: Kind of makes you feel, it makes you feel ancient, but you're not. But, you know, you've got all of this historic understanding and experience within the sector. Paul, yours is building, obviously we've built that over the years with Rubber Cheese. But you're, you know, you're the digital specialist that can come in and support facilitating building these and you've both come together under the Crowd Convert name. So this is the new company that the two of you have formed. I love the name. 

Andy Povey: Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: So I want to understand, like how then there's a story there. What I want to get a little bit of a deeper understanding is what is the offer? So, you know, what is the thing that you are actually building and does that thing have a name at the moment? What does it look like? So firstly, where did the name come from? Crowd Convert. 

Paul Marden: Weeks and weeks of effort. I hate choosing names for things, so hard. You come up with a brilliant idea and then you say it to your wife, “Oh my God, you can't call it that”. Or you come up with a name and then somebody's bought the domain name and by the end of It I was just like, please, somebody just put me out of my misery. I don't care what we choose. 

Andy Povey: It was actually the most torturous thing about getting this all together. There were a few others that came in very close second. But choosing the name and getting that together was really quite painful. 

Paul Marden: But it was the right process because we were so happy with the result at the end of it. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. But it seems or it felt to me like the choosing the name, when we actually got to that part of the process took two or three minutes. And if we'd have thought of that name right at the start, then would we have rejected it or would we have carried on? Could we have saved two minutes? 

Kelly Molson: So you worked through the process, which means the name has more meaning. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: So what is the meaning behind it? What's the ethos behind between Crowd Convert? Like what? 

Andy Povey: So we've reverse engineered this one a little bit. And if you're in the world of attractions, you have a crowd. You hopefully you have a crowd. And as a visitor to an attraction, you want to be part of a crowd. You don't want to be the last person in the pub or the only person in theatre, because that just feels weird. But as an attraction operator, I want to have a relationship with you. I want to know who you are, I want to know what you want. I want to give you a great experience. I want to give you a membership. If I'm a charitable organisation, I want to convert you to a donor. If I'm not, then I want to turn you into an advocate at a superfan. 

Andy Povey: So Crowd Convert is giving you the tools to convert those crowds into individuals that you can create that know, like and trust relationship with. 

Kelly Molson: That's nice. So you talk a lot on the website about kind of humanising that process. And I think it is. It's taking it back to that kind of one on one that talking to people as individuals rather than talking to them as a mass. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. That goes back to the. You don't want a ticketing system. Don't show me what goes in the sausage. Give me a great experience. 

Paul Marden: Mixing your metaphors there. 

Andy Povey: I know. 

Kelly Molson: You lost me at sausage. So, sorry. So I want to go back a little bit, Paul, to what you. Something that you said earlier about that this predates you and your part that you play in Rubber Cheese and your ownership of Rubber Cheese. So I'm going to make an assumption here that something that you're using is something that we already kind of started, but quite a long time ago. So we had almost like a product at Rubber Cheese that was in the ticketing space. And if I'm honest, as a small agency, you only have so much resource to work on things that are for you and ultimately the things that were for us and for you, like the podcast and the survey and the report, always took priority. 

Kelly Molson: And that was an awful lot of work for an agency that was, you know, before we merged, there were six or seven of us. You know, we weren't huge. We didn't have a whole lot of capacity and resources to give up to these things. But we did start to develop a product that kind of. We knew that it could be good, but it almost. We just, we had to shelve it and we just said, you know, one day we might get investment or one day we might be big enough that we could actually kind of focus on that. It feels like that's the product that you are now. 

Paul Marden: That is definitely the great grandparent of the idea that we've got now. 

Kelly Molson: I like that. 

Paul Marden: So there's, I guess there's two parts to some of the stuff that you had developed previously. Some of it was in the ticketing space. So for very small attractions, you developed a system that had an inventory of tickets that you could buy online and it would issue the ticket, create a barcode, send it to them. But there was also a piece that you did that integrated with existing ticketing systems. And that's the area where I think my mind was going is around building a best in class e commerce experience. Because people sat on the sofa on a Thursday night trying to decide what they're going to do at the weekend, want to be able to find an attraction, get their tickets, and then carry on watching the telly. They want quick and easy experience. We can build that experience. 

Paul Marden: We know from the survey that it's nine steps on average to be able to complete an attractions checkout, plus or minus a couple of steps. So there's ones that are even worse. And that checkout experience is torturous in many cases. They want to know when you're coming, what time you're coming, what type of ticket you want to buy. They want to know who's coming, the names, possibly the email addresses of all of your guests that you're bringing with you. They'll want to know what your home address is, what your billing address is. They'll then want to sell you a guidebook. They might upsell or cross sell some other products along the way. And that's how you end up with 12 steps in a process that just feels torturous. 

Paul Marden: I had one last year where they even made me enter a password for a site I was never going to return to and told me off twice for getting the password wrong. I mean, the process that many attractions go through to make you buy, it's a wonder anybody ever perseveres. What's stopping us from achieving an Amazon like one or two click experience? How can we go from that really extreme version down to something really simple and quick? And we've proven that it is possible to do that. It's possible to get down to a couple of clicks and we do that. I know you look surprised. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, well, yes, I, well, I am surprised, but also quite excited by that because that is one of the issues that has come up year after year in the visitor attraction, you know, website report is the amount of steps and the aggravation it causes people, but also the cost that it could save attractions. 

Paul Marden: Yep. 

Kelly Molson: I mean you said nine steps. I thought were, I thought were aboutbbetween seven and nine steps is about the average. 

Kelly Molson: Right. So we know that can cost attractions a huge amount in lost revenue. You know, I'm just going back to the 2022 report, but it was something like 250k for one of our best performing attractions. But it's also tied to, you know, that excessive amounts of CO2 emissions, which I know you focused on really heavily for the current report. So you're saying that the product that you're building could essentially take those average steps down to two. 

Andy Povey: It's not good. It does. 

Kelly Molson: Wow

Paul Marden: It does. Yeah. So the way that we do that is a number of different core principles. Yeah. So we are not going to ask you for anything we do not need in order to affect the transaction. We are only going to ask you to share the data we absolutely need to complete the transaction. We are going to start to make some assumptions about you through personalisation technology. We will know roughly where you are and how far you are away from the transaction. If you're within an hour's distance of the place, chances are if you're looking on Thursday night, probably looking for this weekend. If you're on a different continent, you might be planning for a long term holiday. 

Paul Marden: If we know that you're quite local, let's assume the date that you want to travel based on our understanding of average behaviour of people at that particular attraction and then let people change it if it's not right. Yeah. Another thing Andy talks about a lot is not overselling. So a lot of ticketing systems are trying to upsell, cross sell and increase the average order value, but by cannibalising the conversion rate. And you talk, Andy, don't you, about the maitre d at the restaurant? 

Andy Povey: Yeah. So it's. It's like comparing a McDonald's experience to go to a fine dining place. So if I'm in the McDonald's world, I have to choose what drink I want, what dessert I'm going to have, what main course I'm going to have, all at the same point. And it's a really artificial transaction. It's almost like if you were walking into a fine dining restaurant with the maitre d at the front going, “Welcome, Andy, come in. Lovely to see you. Can you tell me what you'd like for your starter for your main course? For dessert? Will you like coffee after dessert? Would you like a liqueur after the coffee?” We still haven't got to the table and that's where we are with attractions, upsells. 

Andy Povey: Because we believe mistakenly, in my opinion, that's the only opportunity that we've got to sell guidebook or the teddy bear or whatever to the guest who's coming. We should stop all of that because it's stopping the transaction, it's interrupting the transaction, adding extra steps and causing people to leave. 

Kelly Molson: It's a really good point. I mean, I actually have in the past have advocated for adding in upsells in that journey. And because I have often been like, well, yeah, actually it's a really good opportunity for people to sell a little bit more, you know, whether it's a guidebook, whether it's an experience, whatever that might be. So what would you say to people who they still want to do that? Is that, are we then talking about, you know, there's options for you to do that or actually that becomes part of the pre visit, pre boarding. So it funnels down into like emails, comms and stuff. 

Andy Povey: It's both options, really. For an upsell to work really well, it needs to be at the time where it's most appropriate. So back to the restaurant analogy, offering me a coffee at the point I walk in the door is completely inappropriate. 

Andy Povey: Offering me a coffee after I've had a great meal and I'm feeling quite full and quite happy with myself is entirely the appropriate time to offer me the coffee. So let's make the offers on the upsells appropriate to the time and to the guest. So if you're an attraction that charges for car parking, for example, it might be that 9:00 in the morning on the day of visit when the family are just getting in the car to travel to the venue is the most appropriate time to offer the car parking upsell. Not at the point where I'm buying the ticket. It might be if you've got a VIP upgrade experience. So if you're a water park there's a cabana you can have. If you're a theme park it's a fast track experience. 

Andy Povey: If you're a museum then there's a guided Tour that upsell VIP type experience you offer 48 hours before the day of visit. 

Kelly Molson: Sure. 

Andy Povey: Memberships are another great thing. So there's still the majority of first time membership purchases are made as the consumer is leaving the attraction. Had a great day out. Get today's entry feedback against your membership and that's still go and join this queue with kids who are overtired and a little bit disappointed because they're leaving and I'm stressed because I've got a. I'm tired as well and I've got a long drive home and then I've got to work out what we're going to do for dinner when we get in. There's all these negatives. Don't try and sell me a membership then. Sell me the membership for the next seven days and hit me up with lots of different messages through appropriate channels. 

Andy Povey: So it might be that a WhatsApp message on the way home offering me a really simple way of upgrading to a membership is the most appropriate that time. But it might be that 9 o'clock on Monday morning when we can assume that a lot of people are going to be sitting behind a desk. Then it's the most appropriate to send me an email and then hit me up again Thursday when I'm thinking about what I'm going to be doing next this weekend coming remind me of the great experience I had and give me an opportunity then. So just be, make it much more human. 

Kelly Molson: It makes sense. And there's something that you. I've been able to have a sneak peek of the Crowd Convert website. So we'll talk a little bit later about where people can find out a little bit more about you. But I've been able to have a little look at that and there's something that you talk about which is about rehumanising commerce and there's a really lovely story on there that you talk about, which is the Shopkeeper's Wisdom. And I read that, I was like, this is really nice because I've always. The local shop is or did sit at the epicentre of the community at one point. And I have got really vivid memories. So we lived on a little estate near my school in Essex and across the road from us was the corner shop. 

Kelly Molson: And it was where everything happened, you know, like it was the post office, it was where you got your papers, where you got your sweets. At one point is where you got your videos, not your DVDs because they did not exist. You know, you got your VHS cassettes and you could go and rent, you know, everything kind of happened there. And they knew you, they knew your family, they knew your mum and dad, they knew your names, you know, and it was a really, it was just quite a wholesome experience. And you talk about that, the Shopkeeper's Wisdom. So you say, you know, the local shopkeeper knew everything that it was to know about their customers. And that is kind of taking it back to that level. That's, that's what this feels like. 

Andy Povey: And that's completely where we're trying to get to. We don't want to get to the level of creepiness where people are getting all upset about what were. 

Andy Povey: And we don't want to be intrusive. But we have a great opportunity in the attraction space. Our customers want to engage with us. They're going because they enjoy what we do. They're going to see us because they want to experience the thing that we're doing. It's not like we're selling insurance or car tires that you just got to have and it's really tedious. People want to engage, so let's make it easy for them to do that. 

Kelly Molson: Okay. So we're doing that by making it quicker for them and less friction to buy a ticket in the first place. Communicating with them at the appropriate times and in the ways that they want to be communicated to and offering them. Because we don't want to stop offering people extra things. We're doing it in the way and at the time that's appropriate for that audience. 

Paul Marden: We're absolutely convinced that moving some of these upsells and cross sell opportunities to later in your relationship will increase the likelihood of you closing the deal. Don't cannibalise the conversion rate at the initial conversation. You haven't built a trust relationship with someone, so don't keep throwing options at them. It's just too much. I'm a simple boy. If I go to a restaurant, I want a really simple menu, three or four things, and I'll make a choice. Yeah. If you give me too many options, I'll just sit there and I won't be able to decide. And I think that's what we do when we present people with nine steps and we want to know the email address of everybody, we want to know the postcode of where they live because we want to be able to market to them and that's important. 

Paul Marden: But there are other better ways of being able to identify where somebody is other than using their postcode and making them type something in. They don't need that hassle. 

Andy Povey: So this is all about the e commerce journey. Stepping back a little bit closer to what Rubber Cheese do. And the DNA behind Rubber Cheese is making attractions websites work really well. And it's back to the point about things being disconnected and attraction operators having to plug them together. How many websites are there or how many attraction e commerce journeys are there where you click on the button to buy a ticket and you're taken to a different page and that different page can have a completely different look and feel? 

Kelly Molson: Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a massive bug. It's been a bugbear of mine for years. 

Andy Povey: But how many websites do you have where I can be sitting there looking at the tulip experiences coming up? We heard lots of that kind of stuff at the end fan conference. I'm on the tulips page. But then you take me to a page where I've got to pick the date that I want to visit. I've already told you, I'm on the tulip page. I want to come and see tulips. I'm not interested in Father Christmas. 

Kelly Molson: I'm just all about the tulips. 

Andy Povey: So don't make me choose twice. Make it work together. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, So I want to play devil's advocate here because I'm sitting here listening to this going, this sounds great. I'm going back to what Andy said about, you know, attractions, they don't really want a ticketing system. They just. They don't really care about the system. They just want it to work. Right, I get that. But there's going to be a lot of people that are listening to this podcast going, “bloody ticketing system”. There's a lot, right? Let's face it. 

Paul Marden: It's a busy space. 

Kelly Molson: You are. It is a busy space. And if you are an attraction sitting here going,”Oh my God, another one.” We know that another one. You know that we know what we've got isn't working for us. We've, we've got workarounds, we're doing what we can with what we already have. But you know, ultimately we can't grow with what we have and we know we need to change it. This is a big task, right? You know, your ticketing system is often embedded so deeply into your organisation that the process of selecting a new one and then implementing that change is so vast and overwhelming that one people declare we just won't bother. That's why I've got these workarounds in place or two, you know, overwhelmed with choice. And yes, I know there's specialists out there. 

Kelly Molson: You know, we work with a couple that will help you go through that process and select the right partners for you. But if someone like me is sitting here going, “Okay, why do I come to Crowd Convert?” Like, why is this, what is it the thing that your product is going to be stand out for that is going to sit above or is going to solve the problems I've got above all of the other options that I've got out there? 

Andy Povey: So this is back to the comment earlier about this being a concept, an ethos of philosophy. Our business will grow through either building solutions, acquiring other solutions that have already been built, or selecting partners to integrate with. And we will do the whole integration. So it doesn't matter what ticketing system you're using that you have today, if you want the better digital experience for your guests, we will integrate to your current ticketing system. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, so you're taking the pain of having to change something that's deeply embedded in your organisation and almost putting something, a layer on top of that will actually facilitate this better customer interaction, purchasing process without the need for all of the stressful change. 

Paul Marden: Do away with the whole monolithic solution that solves the operation of the entire business and start to turn it into LEGO bricks. I want a LEGO brick from a website. I want a LEGO brick for my ticketing. I want my LEGO brick for my e commerce experience. I want my LEGO brick for my online shop. We'll either build or acquire those LEGO bricks or partner with the best of breed LEGO bricks that exist. Other building blocks are available and we will help to plug those together and make them work effectively. But you can imagine, you know, I always talk about, we talked a lot about ticketing today, but I, whenever I talk to somebody about ticketing, changing your ticketing system is like open heart surgery on the business. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, it's something you don't necessarily do casually, although I have met people who have changed it casually. But it's often so difficult because it's so deeply ingrained across the entire operation. But if you start to. It's a horrible, boring technical term. If you start to build this composable set of systems that can plug together, then it becomes easier. If you plug in an e commerce online ticketing solution and it plugs into your current ticketing system, well then later on when you change that ticketing system, you won't necessarily have to change the online experience in order to be able to do that. Yeah, we'll be able to plug into the new one that you choose. It makes it easier for you to chop and change things and become less dependent on one single monolithic provider. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, because that's the thing. Right. You know, I think the past dream has been one system that does everything and suddenly that one system goes down and you're absolutely screwed. 

Andy Povey: That's not the way the world works anymore. And the human world. I use analogy of a TV. I got a new TV a few weeks ago out of the box and turned it on and I was presented on screen with an option to get the remote control for my new TV to operate other devices in my house. And my kids could have set it up. 

Kelly Molson: Danger.

Andy Povey: Absolutely. Why is integration so difficult? And that's the way the world is going. If you look at credit card processing two, three years ago, to be able to accept a payment by credit card, you had to sign into a five year agreement with a credit card process provider. I was in my local WIX yesterday and I could have bought credit card terminal off the shelf. 

Andy Povey: They were sitting on the shelf next to the suites at the checkout. For 50 quid I could have taken it home, unboxed it and I would be processing credit card transactions there and then. I'm not signing into a three year agreement. If I don't like it, I can take it back and get one in pink because I prefer pink to white. It's got to be much easier. The world is becoming much easier. The technology world is becoming much easier to make these things work together. So you won't need clever people like Paul to make it all work together. Crowd convert. 

Paul Marden: I'll be on the golf course, won't I? 

Kelly Molson: Do you play golf? 

Paul Marden: No. Never played golf in my life. Crazy golf. 

Kelly Molson: I like the analogy. I like the Lego brick analogy. I like this whole kind of the concept that it's, you know, like plug and play but you know, you haven't got. You're using the base of what you already have, but you can pop these things as part of it. That feels really understandable for people to get their head around the concept of what you're doing. 

Paul Marden: But still totally integrated. What we don't want is the solution that is that somebody, an attraction that we've been to recently, where to get in, you have to go through different turnstiles depending on whether you've got a day ticket or a membership ticket because the two different sets of systems can't talk to the same turnstile at the same time. And so then you need more double the staff to be able to man the turnstiles. 

Kelly Molson: And confusion, and it ruins that whole first impact of arrival because you don't know yet. 

Andy Povey: But we're exposing our dirty laundry to the consumer. Why? They don't care. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, yeah. 

Andy Povey: It doesn't matter to them what ticketing system you've got. 

Paul Marden: That is the vision. And the vision is becoming reality as well. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, well, let's talk about that. So there is a website that I've had privy to and the product is in its, should we say it's in its infancy at the moment and it's being developed. 

Paul Marden: Yes. 

Kelly Molson: So this is the time to that you'll be having, I guess you'll be having conversations with people about what that product, you're almost building it for the people. Right. You're having conversations with them about this is what we see happening. This is how we see what we do. What are your needs? 

Paul Marden: Yeah. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, cool. So can people get involved with that process? 

Paul Marden: Exciting. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. 

Paul Marden: Anyone can talk to Andy. He'll talk to anybody. 

Kelly Molson: It's true, he will. 

Paul Marden: I just get locked in a cupboard and told to design things. 

Andy Povey: Make it work, plug it together. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, so I've got a few questions about what does this mean for Rubber Cheese? What does this mean for Rubber Cheese? What does this mean for Skip the Queue. What does this mean for the report initiatives that we do? I guess that's all still happening. 

Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely no changes to Rubber Cheese at all. This is part of a wider, bigger family that Rubber Cheese is part of. And looking at different parts of the attraction operating experience. 

Paul Marden: Yeah. So Rubber Cheese is going to carry on almost single minded focus on websites that enable people to get to the buy button. 

Kelly Molson: I like that. 

Paul Marden: Getting them from being interested in the attraction to hitting that buy now button or get your ticket button. Yeah. That's our specialty and that will remain our specialty. The job of Crowd Convert then is to convert them. 

Kelly Molson: Pick up from that point. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. 

Kelly Molson: That's lovely, isn't it? 

Andy Povey: And that's where the build, acquire and partner comes in. So there will be other organisations, other tools that we partner with and plug together. And that's the bit that Crowd Convert does. It's almost the umbrella, the glue that glues all of these things together. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, so what more do our listeners need to understand about Crowd Convert and how can they get involved? How can they be part of this conversation to define what this product actually looks like and does for them? 

Andy Povey: So we're launching the website. You can find Paul and me on LinkedIn. We've got a bunch of events and exhibition shows that we're going to be at over the next few months where we're actively going to be asking people to get involved. If you are interested, then pick up the phone and drop us an email. We'll have a chat. 

Paul Marden: [email protected].

Kelly Molson: I was going to say we need the domain name in there. Crowdconvert.co.uk is the place to go. Go and have a look, find out, have a little bit of a read through about the site. It's designed in a really nice way. I think that what I really liked as I was reading it through was kind of this real focus on building something for the greater good. It's not just another ticketing platform. It's not just about. It really is about working with the attractions to build something that is just, it just works. And it works for them in the way they need it to and it works for the visitors in the way they need it to. 

Andy Povey: And that's it completely. It's about putting the guest at the centre of everything we're doing. And looking at this from the consumer's perspective, does it make sense or am I going to have to work out where I bought my tickets? So I know whether I go through the right hand turnstiles or the left hand turnstiles, that's just rubbish. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, okay, great. So website is launching.

Paul Marden:  It is launched. It's up and running. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, it's out. It's out there all right. It's out there in the world already. So that's where you go, listeners, if you want to find out more about what's happening. And I would really recommend booking a call with Andy, booking a call with Paul, talking through, you know, if anything that we've talked about today has made you feel quite excited about what the prospect of this product could potentially be. Book a call with them. I mean, listen, if you're seeing Andy at a conference, you just need to up. And you'll find him. Or maybe it’s just me.

Paul Marden: Me, not so much. 

Kelly Molson: Oh, it's just me. Okay, listen, I always finish off my podcasts with a book recommendation for our listeners, so I'd like to ask you both if you've prepared a book today. Andy, what do you have for us? 

Andy Povey: So I pondered this for quite a while because I was expecting it and I think it's the third or fourth you've asked me for. So I'm actually not going to recommend a book at all. I told you that I've given up on podcasts earlier on and I found Audible. So at the moment the thing that's occupying all of my attention is that, The Day of the Triffids on Audible which is fantastic. Fantastic escapism from everything that's going off in the world at the moment. 

Paul Marden: Interesting. 

Kelly Molson: That's nice actually. That's really good. But audiobooks are really good for long drives that were talking about earlier. They're quite good. I got into. Sorry, Paul, just. I'll come to you in a minute. 

Paul Marden: It's all about you. 

Kelly Molson: It's all about me today. I really got into. 

Kelly Molson: Just before the pandemic and during it there was a BBC podcast called the Lovecraft. Oh gosh, what is it called? The Lovecraft's Tales. I'm gonna have to have to check this on my.

Paul Marden: Sorry, listeners. Well, she's out of practice on this. 

Kelly Molson: So I am out of practice. Apologies, but you know me. The Lovecraft investigations. Don't know if anyone would listen to it. It's brilliant. It's based on the love. It's loosely based on on Lovecraft books but it was quite like it's about supernatural. But what I really enjoyed about it was linked to like local places that I kind of knew like Retend and Forest and there was a lot of like, kind of like Norfolk, Suffolk and Dunwich and stuff. And that was. They're really good for like long drives as well because you can really get into something on like a two or three hour journey. So I totally with you on the triffids thing. So I did bring it back to Andy in the end. 

Andy Povey: Thank you, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: Paul, what have you prepared? 

Paul Marden: I am an absolute Fan of classic British crime novels. Love an Agatha Christie. Love, a  mystery of some sort. But I'm not going to recommend an Agatha Christie one. I'm going to recommend one that I've got on Audible as well, that I found originally from Audible. 

Paul Marden: And it is one of the British Library classic British crime series, where they're republishing stuff from, like, you know, the 20s and 30s, and it's called the Wintringham Mystery Anthony Barclay. It's a classic whodunit in a kind of locker room mystery in a massive stately home. It's just like a Poirot novel, but it's not Poirot. It's a different one. But I love it. It's a brilliant book. 

Kelly Molson: When you find stuff like that, it's really comforting, isn't it? It's like a little a warm hug and a cup of tea. 

Andy Povey: Absolutely. 

Kelly Molson: Lovely. Well, do our listeners still get to win copies of those books even though they're audiobooks? 

Paul Marden: Yeah, but they don't do it on X anymore because, you know, who wants to be posting on X? So if listeners. If you'd like a copy of Andy’s. Well, no, you can't have Andy Lovecraft books but it was quite like it's about supernatural. On Audible or mine. On Audible or on Paperback, then head over to Bluesky and repost the shownotes where Wenalyn has announced the podcast and the first person that does that will get a copy of the book. 

Kelly Molson: Lovely. Well, it has been an absolute treat to be back on the podcast today. Thank you. 

Paul Marden: You're not coming back over again? It's still mine. It's mine there. 

Kelly Molson: Please let me come back. Please. Anything that we've talked about today will, as ever, be in the show notes. So you'll find links to the Crowd Convert website, you'll find links to Paul and Andy's LinkedIn profiles and email addresses, whatever. However, best to get in touch with them. But I highly recommend having a chat with them. 

Can I just say, because it is all about me. I’ve been very sad to not be part of the podcast moving forward. But I am also been really thrilled that you have taken completely up to the ownership of it. So I just. While I'm on here, and it is about me, I just wanted to congratulate you for taking over and making it your own, because you really needed to do that. And it's brilliant to see. 

Kelly Molson: And I've loved listening to the episodes. I think the bravery in doing some of the live ones. 

Paul Marden: Stupidity. 

Kelly Molson: Well, maybe a tad. 

Paul Marden: We won't talk about what happened at NFAN last week. Please let's not talk about that. 

Andy Povey: What happens in Blackpool stays in Blackpool. 

Kelly Molson: Next time I come on the podcast, I'm going to make you spill that as a guilty confession. 

Paul Marden: But you know what? I absolutely loved it. I came back afterwards and I listened to that episode and it's the first one where I've been. I really thoroughly enjoyed listening to the conversation. I'm finding my feelings only taken me a couple of years. 

Kelly Molson: Well, it only took me a couple of years as well. But you're there now and it's brilliant. So, like one, well done. I genuinely think that you're doing an excellent job and I'm very glad that I got to hand the baton over to you and you're doing it differently. 

Paul Marden: You can just come back as a guest star. 

Andy Povey: It was more of a temporary end, wasn't it, than a handover. 

Paul Marden: It's mine. It's mine. 

Kelly Molson: I think it was a, "Here you go, dumped on your lap." 

Paul Marden: Thank you for coming back and talking to us. It's been marvellous. 

Kelly Molson: Thank you for having me back. I've loved every minute. 

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others to find us. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them to increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcripts from this episode and more over on our website, skipthequeue fm. 

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