I recently sat down with Dane Groeneveld for the second part of our conversation on Snafu, where we went deeper into his journey, his thinking on teams and leadership, and what it takes to navigate work when the world changes faster than we can plan for it.

We talked about Dane's childhood growing up in Australian mining towns, his 25-year career in recruiting, and the experiences that led him to become fascinated by what makes some teams thrive while others struggle. We also explored AI, from its potential to create abundance to the disruption and uncertainty it may bring. Dane shared how he thinks about using AI without losing the human judgment, curiosity, and struggle that help us actually learn.

We also talked about family as a team, curiosity, failure, surfing, and what happens when humans and AI start building things together.

If you're interested in AI, teamwork, leadership, organizational culture, or navigating uncertainty, I think you'll enjoy this second conversation with Dane.

In this episode, I'm joined by Adam Rosendahl – facilitator, artist, and founder of Late Nite Art – for a conversation about creativity, trust, belonging, and why deeply human experiences may matter more than ever in an increasingly AI-driven world.

Adam's work uses collaborative art, storytelling, music, and facilitation to help people lower their defenses and reconnect with one another in ways that traditional meetings, networking, and workplace culture often fail to create. We explore how creativity can function as a kind of social technology — building trust, emotional openness, empathy, and shared experience across strangers, teams, and organizations.

We talk about the origins of Late Nite Art, the leadership camps and formative experiences that shaped Adam's philosophy, and why so many people today feel disconnected despite being constantly online. Along the way, we explore relationship-centered leadership, workplace trust, emotional safety, political polarization, experiential learning, and why organizations increasingly need spaces for genuine human connection.

Toward the second half of the conversation, we discuss AI, automation, digital overwhelm, and the growing tension between technological acceleration and preserving humanity, creativity, and embodied experience. Adam also reflects on friendship, handwritten art, illuminated notes, and why imperfect human-made experiences may become even more valuable in a world saturated with AI-generated content.

If you're thinking about creativity, leadership, belonging, trust, or how to stay emotionally grounded in rapidly changing times, this conversation is for you.

In this episode, I'm joined by Sara Loncka – experiential learning designer, leadership strategist, and CEO of Experience Institute – for a conversation about why human experience may matter more than ever in an increasingly AI-driven world.

Sara's work focuses on leadership development, experiential learning, and organizational transformation, but this conversation goes far beyond workplace training. It's about what happens when people become disconnected from themselves, each other, and the environments shaping their lives – and why intentional experiences can interrupt the routines, assumptions, and identity patterns we often move through unconsciously.

At the center is Sara's distinction between "little e" experiences and "Big E" Experiences. Little e experiences are the stories, habits, and assumptions people accumulate over time. Big E Experiences are intentionally disruptive moments that create reflection, discomfort, curiosity, and transformation. We talk about why growth often requires stepping outside familiar environments, embracing beginner mindsets, and placing ourselves in situations where certainty and competence disappear.

We also explore the origins of Experience Institute, why traditional corporate training often fails, how experiential learning creates lasting behavioral change, and the challenge of building organizations that remain deeply human as technology accelerates. Along the way, Sara reflects on founder transitions, reinvention, identity, discomfort, and how even small experiences can quietly reshape the direction of a person's life.

Toward the end, the conversation becomes more personal as Sara shares how pregnancy and motherhood have challenged her relationship with control, embodiment, and uncertainty – becoming a different kind of transformational experience entirely.

If you're thinking about leadership, personal growth, reinvention, or how to stay connected to what feels deeply human in rapidly changing times, this conversation is for you.

In this episode, I'm joined by Eric Ries – entrepreneur, founder of the Lean Startup movement, and author of The Lean Startup and Incorruptible – for a conversation about what it actually takes to build companies that last.

Eric's work has shaped how startups and large organizations approach innovation, but this conversation goes deeper than experimentation. It's about what happens after you succeed and why so many good companies slowly lose their way.

At the center is a concept he calls financial gravity: the invisible force that pushes organizations toward short-term decisions, often at the expense of customers, employees, and long-term value. We talk about how this pressure shows up everywhere – from venture-backed startups to public companies – and why even well-intentioned leaders struggle to resist it.

We dig into real examples, from Costco and Patagonia to lesser-known companies that have built what Eric calls "incorruptible" systems – organizations designed to hold their values under pressure. That means not just strong culture, but governance, ownership, and structures that reinforce the mission over time.

We explore: Where things break. Why founders lose control. Why incentives drift. Why "best practices" often lead to worse outcomes. And why resisting that pull requires more than good intentions.

Along the way, we touch on AI, alternative ownership models, and the growing tension between innovation and accountability, especially as new technologies are being built inside increasingly concentrated power structures.

If you're building a company, thinking about long-term value, or trying to create something that doesn't fall apart as it scales, this podcast is for you.

In this episode, I'm joined by Ellen Huet – journalist at Bloomberg and author of Empire of Orgasm – for a conversation about power, belonging, and the sometimes blurry line between influence and manipulation.

Ellen has spent over a decade covering Silicon Valley – from AI startups to the personalities shaping the industry. Empire of Orgasm explores OneTaste, the sexual wellness company and alleged sex cult. Throughout the book, Ellen also explores the broader question of how high-demand groups actually work.

At the center of this book is the uncomfortable idea that cults aren't a binary; they exist on a spectrum. And, as we discuss in depth, many of the dynamics we associate with extreme groups – belonging, shared language, mission-driven work, charismatic leadership – show up in everyday organizations more than we'd like to admit.

We talk about what she learned reporting on OneTaste, from the power of social pressure and status to the subtle ways people are influenced without ever being explicitly told what to do. Ellen breaks down how "consent" gets distorted in these environments, and why the ability to freely say "no" is the clearest line between healthy influence and coercion.

We also explore the overlap between cult dynamics and modern business – especially in tech. From grand mission statements to founder mythology, there's often an emotional pull that goes beyond logic. Ellen shares how these forces show up in AI companies today, and why the belief that you're "part of something world-changing" can be both motivating and dangerous.

Along the way, we get into sales, persuasion, and the tension between helping someone and overriding their agency. Where is the line between influence and manipulation?

In this episode, I'm joined by Joshua Zerkel – community strategist, former Evernote ambassador turned community leader, and author of The Community Code – for a conversation about what it really takes to build community that drives business outcomes.

Joshua's path is anything but typical. He started as a power user and advocate, writing productivity books about Evernote before eventually joining the company and helping scale its community as it grew from 100M to 200M users. From there, he went on to build and lead community at Asana, turning it into a global program spanning forums, ambassadors, experts, and hundreds of events – all tied to real pipeline impact.

His work centers on a simple but often misunderstood idea: community is just relationships at scale. We talk about why community is so often undervalued inside organizations, how to translate its impact to business leaders, and the constant tradeoffs between depth and reach.

We dig into the messy realities of building community inside companies – from navigating trust during Evernote's privacy-policy crisis to responding to backlash and actually listening when your users push back. Joshua shares what breaks when companies stop listening, why "personas" often miss the point, and how to design community programs around real people instead.

We also explore the role of events as a community engine – how to think about formats, why in-person still matters, and what separates meaningful engagement from surface-level activity. Along the way, we touch on the fine line between community and cult dynamics, and what companies like Peloton get right when it comes to creating real connection.

If you're building community, trying to prove its value, or thinking about how relationships translate into growth, this conversation is for you.

.In this episode, I'm joined by Lindsey Caplan — organizational psychologist, former Hollywood screenwriter, and upcoming author — for a conversation about creativity, communication, and how people and groups are actually moved.

Lindsey's path is anything but linear. She started her career on TV and film sets in Los Angeles, working on shows like Malcolm in the Middle, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and The Amazing Race. From there, she transitioned into learning and development at companies like DreamWorks Animation, Zendesk, and Credit Karma, eventually stepping fully into organizational design and change work at The Gathering Effect.

Her new book, Moved — coming March 2027 — explores the forces that shape human behavior: what moves us, how we can move others, and why pull, not push, is the most sustainable path to influence. We talk about why the book took nine years to write, what she learned about the psychology of groups, and why "being seen and heard" is at the heart of all meaningful change.

We dig into the creative process, including the messy parts: identity shifts, losing and regaining a creative voice, and what it takes to translate an idea that lives in your head into something that lands with other people. Lindsey shares how her storytelling roots shape her work today — from understanding stakes and motivation to designing experiences that create real engagement, not just compliance.

We also explore the gap between knowing and doing, why so many best-practice books fail to stick inside organizations, and how leaders can communicate in ways that create ownership instead of resistance.

If you're curious about influence, the craft of writing, or how to move people without pressure, this conversation is for you.

This conversation between Robin Zander and Gagan Biyani, founder of Maven and early contributor to Udemy, Lyft, and Spread, explores the intersection of growth, education, and entrepreneurship. The session begins with a brief mindfulness exercise for the audience before diving into Biyani's career and his perspective on growth. He distinguishes growth from traditional marketing by emphasizing that growth is a systematic approach that integrates product, analytics, and user behavior to drive scalable results, rather than solely focusing on branding or messaging. Biyani also addresses the ethics of growth, noting that while manipulation is unavoidable in communication, respecting users' agency and providing genuine value is key. Fear or guilt about "manipulating" others often hinders action, whereas ethical influence fosters trust and long-term engagement. Drawing from his own experiences, he underscores the importance of providing optimism and clarity, rather than relying on fear-based tactics, in both marketing and education. Education remains a central theme of Biyani's work. At Udemy, he helped pioneer live, video-based courses to make learning more accessible online, though he notes systemic barriers prevented it from fully replacing traditional college education. Maven continues this mission with cohort-based programs led by industry experts, helping professionals rapidly gain practical skills. Biyani highlights the transformative potential of AI in upskilling, explaining that while AI won't replace human teachers, it significantly expands access and efficiency for learners across industries. Reflecting on his broader entrepreneurial journey, Biyani shares lessons from Lyft and Spread. Lyft demonstrated the power of timing and product-market fit, while Spread taught him that execution alone is not enough – understanding the market and being "right" about demand is essential. Across all ventures, he emphasizes pattern recognition, balancing exploration with focused execution, and learning from successes and failures alike. Ultimately, Biyani's philosophy is to tackle challenging problems that align with personal strengths, respect users' agency, and leverage insight and experimentation to create meaningful impact.

Robin Zander hosted a Snafu webinar for the Sidebar community on non-sales selling—think self-promotion for career transitions, freelancers, entrepreneurs, and product people. The goal: learn to "sell yourself" without the ick factor.

Participants shared fears: follow-ups feel intimidating, sales feels slimy, and success seems like a numbers game. Robin reframed it: selling is really about enrollment—being a chief evangelist for your work, not begging for attention.

Drawing on stories from his childhood pumpkin patch, his time as a personal trainer (where desperation lost him clients), and opening Robin's Cafe in San Francisco (raising $40k, serving multiple stakeholders, training staff with Danny Meyer's principles), he showed the difference between selling from need vs. service. Long-term success comes from genuine connection, curiosity, optimism, and passion.

Attendees explored their "authentic attitude" and reflected on times self-promotion felt good versus slimy. Exercises included mapping all the people who benefit from your work—employees, customers, managers, mentees, community—and practicing generosity in selling (a "Miracle on 34th Street" mindset: help customers even if it means sending them elsewhere).

In Q&A, Robin tackled:

• Asking for promotions as modeling for others, especially women and minorities

• Persistence in follow-ups (yes, emailing Mark Benioff 53 times counts)

• Relationship-based enterprise selling

• Avoiding fear-based AI marketing by knowing who you serve and what problem you solve

Recommended reading: Setting the Table (Danny Meyer), Unreasonable Hospitality (Will Guidara), The New Strategic Selling.

Robin also shared upcoming Snafu conference details (March 5, Oakland Museum of California) and reminded everyone: Snafu = situation normal; all fucked up.

• Robin Zander welcomes 93 participants to the webinar

• Notes the session is interactive with exercises planned

  • Encourages participants to drop questions in chat or interrupt him

• Last 15–20 minutes reserved for questions

• Robin introduces himself briefly

• Focuses on storytelling as a tool for self-promotion

• Shares experience as a community builder

• Runs a conference called Responsive since 2016 (not Snafu)

  • Tools, structures, and company cultures for resilient organizations

• Two-day event each September on the future of work

• Focus on building resilience in organizations

• Observations on rapid change

• Technology and work-life changes happening at a fast pace

• Questions about resilience in individuals

• Traits needed in careers, personal relationships, professional relationships

• Ability to stay resilient through change

• Robin frames his expertise

  • Emphasizes his strength in asking questions and fostering honest conversations

• Labels himself a reluctant salesperson

• Not the world's leading expert on self-promotion or selling

• Key lessons from research and interviews

• Two buckets matter in business and life:

  • Example: Sidebar community forming coalitions for learning and action

• Operational excellence: being competent and at least as good as others Promotion/enrollment/sales: standing up, saying what you want, building coalitions

• Started interviewing people about influence and persuasion

• Started a weekly newsletter called Snafu

• Written by hand, not AI

• Shares lessons from his life and others about self-promotion and resilience

• Focus on courage to take action: raising hand, offering something valuable

• Core characteristics of self-promotion and selling yourself

• Connecting with others: art of connection Courage to ask: inspired by Amanda Palmer's TED Talk and book The Art of Asking

• Opposes traditional "always be closing" sales mentality

• Advocates for simply asking for what you want

• Current work mostly involves storytelling for large companies

• Clients include Supersonic, Airbnb, Zappos, and others

• Robin introduces the concept of storytelling for self-promotion

  • Stories used to:

  • Get promotions

  • Build coalitions

  • Propel career or organizational growth

• Emphasizes turning personal, career, or company stories into "commercials"

• Focus of today's talk: self-promotion with impact

  • Core principle: service

  • Showing up from a place of helping others

  • Through helping others, also helping oneself

• Distinguishes between sleazy salespeople and effective self-promoters

• Childhood anecdote: Robin's pumpkin patch

  • Tended plants all summer, learned responsibility and care

  • Harvested pumpkins and sold them using a small red tin box labeled "money"

  • Ran "Robin's Pumpkin Patch" for five to seven years

• At age five, father had him plant pumpkin seeds

• Engaged neighborhood kids for fun, collaborative promotion

  • Explained product (pumpkins) enthusiastically to potential buyers

• Used scarecrow costumes and creative gestures to attract attention

• Lessons learned from pumpkin patch:

• Authentic enthusiasm creates value

• Helping people do what they were already inclined to do

• Early experience of earning and serving simultaneously

• Self-promotion is most effective when it's service-driven, not manipulative

• Applying childhood lesson to career and business

  • Asking for a raise

  • Persuading companies to choose one service over another

  • Promoting oneself or others (e.g., Evan, web developer)

  • Key principle: approach self-promotion from delight and service, not need or fear

• Authentic enthusiasm as foundation for:

• Interactive exercise for participants

  • Not influenced by sleep deprivation or stress

  • Could be inspired by childhood or adult experiences

  • Opposite of fear; personal and unique for each participant

• Question posed: what is your authentic attitude when self-promoting?

• Examples shared from participants:

• Curiosity

• Passion

• Inspiration

• Service to others

• Observation

• Possibility

• Insight

• Value

• Helping others

• Creativity

• Belief in serendipity

• Optimism

• Key takeaway from exercise and story

  • Promoting from delight, enthusiasm, and service

  • Promoting from need or fear

• Two versions of self-promotion:

• Effective self-promotion aligns with authenticity and enthusiasm, creating value for others while advancing oneself

• Robin shares the next story and sets up the next exercise

  • Gym culture is sales-heavy

  • Initial motivation: love of fitness, desire to help people

  • Quickly realizes environment incentivizes personal trainers to sell aggressively

• Timeframe: ~20 years later, at age 20, moved to San Francisco

• First post-college job: personal trainer in gyms

• Early experience at gyms

  • Key lesson from early failure

  • Selling from need feels gross

  • Promoting oneself from fear or desperation leads to poor results

  • Recognizes similarity to unwanted sales calls received personally

  • First authentic success in self-promotion

• Worked at Petro and World's Gym in San Francisco, Pilates instructor

• Owner confronted Robin after two weeks: no clients, potential clients being lost to others

• Threatened termination by Friday if no clients acquired

• Robin froze under pressure, approached clients but with needy, desperate energy

• Outcome: fired by Friday, left gym

• Encounters man in pain on Valencia Street, offers help as personal trainer

• Approach comes from genuine care, desire to serve

• Leads to three-year working relationship, consistent sessions, good income

• Next client: world-famous photographer Michael Light at UCSF swimming pool

• Client comes from natural connection, not pushy salesmanship

• Dichotomy observed:

• Pushy, need-based self-promotion → freeze, poor results

• Service-oriented self-promotion → natural connections, sustained relationships

• Exercise for participants

• Prompt: identify two moments:

• One time self-promoting felt slimy → what were you doing?

• One time self-promoting felt good → what were you doing differently?

• Two-minute reflection / chat participation

• Participant reflections/examples

• Slimy examples:

• Interviewing for a job during layoffs, giving desperate energy

• Selling P&L at a hyperscaler

• Selling computers and printers in UK post-college

• Sales emails getting ghosted

• Feeling inauthentic or performative, taking advantage of someone

• Good examples:

• Offering services out of care and love rather than ROI

• Showing impact of work to junior child

• Knowing services add real value and solve a challenge

• Being clear on what the other person needs

• Key takeaway

• Self-promotion feels different depending on intent and knowledge

• Slimy → desperate, inauthentic, unclear value to recipient

• Authentic → service-driven, clear value, connection-focused

• Effective self-promotion combines knowing your value and serving others, not just pushing for personal gain

• Feeling good in self-promotion comes from genuinely helping, solving problems, and sharing information

  • Santa Claus hired at Macy's to hold kids and give candy canes, but real goal: persuade parents to buy from Macy's

  • Santa instead sends parents to competitor to truly serve them

  • Macy's manager initially furious

  • Outcome: customers feel genuinely served, return praising Macy's, become loyal fans

• Robin references Miracle on 34th Street (original version)

• Key insight: providing real value, even if it benefits someone else, eventually returns value to you

• "Put enough bread across the water, eventually good things come back"

• Participant reflections

• Slimy: knowing audience expects judgment, catering to them for approval

• Good: giving the gift of knowledge, providing service freely

• Takeaway: authentic self-promotion is rooted in service, generosity, and sharing expertise, not manipulating for immediate gain

• Robin shares a major professional turning point: opening Robin's Cafe in 2016

  • No restaurant experience beyond college busing tables

  • Opened in three weeks, eventually grew to 15 employees by 2018

• Worked in multiple industries: Pumpkin patch, personal trainer, circus performer

• Opened a café/restaurant in Mission District, San Francisco

• Courage and conviction came from clear focus on service to others

  • Employees: create a great workplace, go-giver culture Investors: $40k raised from friends/family, provided value and potential return

  • Landlords (ODC, nonprofit dance center): wanted success of business to support community

  • Customers: diverse—tech workers, kids in dance classes, local community

  • Robin himself: financial sustainability, learning, personal growth

• Key audiences served by Robin's Cafe

• Approach to challenges

  • Used Danny Meyer's Setting the Table as a service-focused framework for employees

  • Philosophy: "giving in order to get paid"

  • Examples: spouse, kids, dog, manager, peers, mentees, clients, community, customers, extended family, mentors

• Served multiple stakeholders during crises: break-ins, flooding, city permitting, neighborhood issues

• Exercise: identify all the people who benefit from your work or success

• Key idea: the more stakeholders served, the easier self-promotion becomes, because it comes from service, not need or pressure

  • Show up thinking: does this serve the person I'm talking to?

• Principle: selling yourself from a place of service

• Consider multiple stakeholders simultaneously

  • Audience question: elaborate on applying this service mindset specifically to asking for a promotion

  • Tying service to self-promotion in career advancement

• Result: asking for a raise, applying for jobs, pitching clients—all easier and more authentic

• Asking for a promotion from a place of service

  • Example: doing the role already, deserving recognition, asking for what you believe you've earned.

• Personal perspective: advocating for yourself is a form of service to yourself

• Recognize other stakeholders in the process:

  • Modeling courage and advocacy for the next generation

  • Authority enables ideas to be taken more seriously

  • Stories gained from new responsibilities enhance value to clients or teams

• People you mentor, especially women or underrepresented groups

• The organization: your promotion can make it stronger

• Your family or children: showing them what it looks like to advocate

• Concrete examples

  • Outcome: trajectory of career positively influenced, demonstrated courage, modeled behavior

• Asking first time for a manager role

• Later asking for VP title as a director

• Courage and small steps

• Courage = acting despite fear, not absence of fear

• Practice by taking incremental steps toward what scares you

• Avoid masking or hesitation; direct action builds confidence and results

• Persistence and follow-up

  • Busy people require patience and multiple nudges

• Example: Mark Stubbings emailing Mark Benioff 53 times before a yes

• Persistence = respectful, consistent follow-ups

• Role modeling for women and minorities

  • Demonstrates that asking is a normal, expected, and service-oriented act

• Many don't ask for promotions or raises due to upbringing or cultural norms

• Modeling advocacy teaches the next generation, including children, to speak up

• Service mindset in practice

• Approach self-promotion by asking: is this good for the other person?

• Keep intention aligned with service, not desperation

• Books for guidance:

• Setting the Table – Danny Meyer: service-driven sales and employee culture

• Unreasonable Hospitality – Will Guidara: lessons from the restaurant world on giving value and delight

• Key takeaways for promotion and asking

• Serve yourself, your mentees, your organization, and your broader audience

• Take small, courageous steps to ask for what you deserve

• Follow up respectfully and consistently; don't assume silence = no

• Self-promotion becomes easier and authentic when rooted in service, not fear or need

• Snafu Newsletter

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• Covers influence, persuasion, and modern workplace dynamics

• A resource for ongoing learning and practical insights

• Robin's newsletter covers influence, persuasion, and modern work.

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