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Social Media for Yoga Businesses : Yes, No, Maybe?
Episode 127: Social Media: yes, no or sometimes? with Jamie Elmer
Major Points:
- It is a given that we use social media to market our business. Is this a good decision for everyone? Does is feel right? Does it bring in clients, students, etc. ? Is it an effective use of your time?
- Does cutting back on social media have a deleterious effect? Or does curating your posts give you produce more engagement? Jamie's found that a human connection through meeting people and having them on her email list feels more authentic to her.
- If someone doesn't have an email list, social media can be a good place to start. But it must feel like a natural, authentic thing for someone to do. Is it fun? Is it something you dread? You have to find the path that feels good for you because you won't continue if you don't.
00:00 This is changing the face of yoga and this is episode 127 and this is part of the yoga teacher support theme. I'm speaking to Jamie Elmer and Jamie is an experienced RYT 500 teacher. She also provides continuing education through her streaming site. We'll get into that a little bit more. She has been teaching yoga and movement therapy full time, which is impressive for over 18 years. She specializes in alignment, applied anatomy and healing injuries. Jamie travels to teach teacher training, continuing education immersions, retreats, sees students online and has an online streaming video membership site for teachers or for students and as a continuing education resource for teachers. Jamie, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate, your sharing with us on this podcast. Is there anything else you want to add to that particular introduction?
01:18 No, thank you. Thanks for having me. I think that about covers it.
01:26 The reason I asked Jamie to be on the podcast, especially on this theme of yoga teacher support as you can tell, she's very busy. She's doing lots of different things, which probably requires marketing. Either to other yoga teacher trainings, people or to students or for her video streaming site. But she had posted about she was really looking at social media and how that was supposed to support her efforts. And so I know I've had several business coaches and they always tell you have to be on all these social media sites It's really, really important. But I think we should think about it. And since Jamie has thought about it, I asked her to come on and to talk a little bit about it. So, I assume Jamie and I could be wrong, that you have used social media to, in part, market your offerings and are now thinking about, I suppose the efficacy of it, if that's true. So I just like you to kind of set the stage for where you were and why you decided it needed more thought.
02:52 Well thanks. yes, for seeing that on social media and I did think it would be a good topic to bring up because, I too have worked with some coaches that have been great and I've been encouraged to use social media. I also feel like I've come up as a teacher as social media was coming into our life and it was just a given that of course we were going to use social media and of course we needed to be on Facebook and of course we needed to be on Instagram. And it's just a given that that's what you do, without really even thinking about is this natural for me? Does it feel right? Is this really where I'm getting my clients? is this really where I'm putting my students and is it an effective use of my time?
I don't, I in no way hate social media. I enjoy it, but I've learned that I need to enjoy it and want to enjoy it in moderation, both just personally and professionally. Because I am the first to admit that I started going down this rabbit hole probably about a year and a half ago where I was really trying to build my business.
As I was launching the streaming site and traveling more than ever and really were quote unquote working more than ever. But most of my work was all behind a computer screen at my desk, not teaching. I went down that rabbit hole of I kind of took the bait thinking I need to be on social media as much as possible. And I started out with posting four times a week and had a whole grid and the theme and the blah, blah, blah of all right, this is what I do at 8:00 AM on Tuesdays and this is when I do it, noon on Tuesdays and I started spending so much time on this thing that really I don't enjoy spending that much time on. It's not natural for me.
And a year and a half into it, I realized that the people that are still connecting with me, the people that still respond to my newsletter, the people that still come on a retreat, the people I'm seeing for privates, these people, most of them I'd say 99% of them are all people that I've worked with in person and are on my mailing list.
05:33 I'm not like the next YouTube, 20 something year old model on Instagram that people are just going to start to follow, that's just not me, never me. And I'm not the type of person that idolizes people like that either. And so for me trying to put on this presence, it was suggested to me that I actually get an acting coach to help me for my social media posts. And when I got, when I heard that on the other end of the phone, literally in my mind, something just clicked and I was like, I'm out. I'm done. It's not me. Just not me. And there's only so much time on the day, you know? It's a medium that I do enjoy.
06:41 I think it's useful to remind people, Hey, I'm still here, out there doing this if you're interested. And I've cut back to about once a week that I post on Instagram and Facebook and that feels good. I like sharing an event. I like sharing some helpful tips. and I think people like it for me at least, they like hearing from me in moderation. instead of, Oh Jamie is going to like post 5 or 8 times today. I'll catch her next time. You know? And it just, it was so unnatural. I can't even describe it, let alone just a total energy and time suck from actually what's most important in my life, which is not to become an Instagram star. Like that's not even a possibility anyway. So why try,
07:41 You say that you're really getting your clients and your students from your mailing list and, and how do you build that mailing list if you don't use social media?
07:52 Well, I would say that the majority of people that are on my mailing list are people that I have worked with in person. And I think that people connect in different ways. I think that we gravitate towards different people in different ways. I'm not someone, even though I have a streaming site, as I mentioned, I'm not someone that people are going to see on screen or see in a photo shoot and be like, wow, I want to be her. I mean, I connect more with people in person.
I mean I think the reality is that most of us do, I mean we see someone like in a movie or in a photo shoot and it's different. And so I've built my mailing list through working with people in person and then once in a while I'll put out a post on social media about, if you want to be part of my mailing list, click here. And a few people will sign on. It usually is that human connection that's been made and not a stranger browsing the internet or browsing social media and connecting with me that way. That happens once in a while, but not very often.
09:13 Okay, you've actually done some analysis of where your new clients, students, opportunities are coming from and social media is not contributing a whole lot to that. Is that a fair statement?
09:33 Yeah, and I would say the people that stay in touch with me via social media, the people that comment, the people that like, the people that repost a post of mine, usually those people also are people that I've worked with at some point in the last 20 years in person. So the social media crowd, that interaction is still most of the people that are on my mail, my email list.
10:04 Okay.
10:06 And, and I'd say the same goes with YouTube. I had a YouTube channel and really worked that for awhile and I have paused it right now basically. because I also find that people that are going to get content from YouTube, they're going to stay YouTube users, they're going to stay the users that want something for free. And it doesn't actually drive people to anything that, requires more of a financial commitment.
10:36 No, that's, that's a good thing. Good thing to know because, I agree with you, it can be a real time suck that you just spend so much time getting posts ready and stuff. I just put out one post a week on whatever my newest podcast is and that takes time. You have 20 years of experience behind you. Obviously you've made lots and lots of contacts over your teaching and video streaming and your students and your clients. But if someone is brand new and really doesn't have a lot of those contacts and doesn't have a mail list, do you think that there's some value there in social media?
11:30 Yeah, I definitely think so. And I really think that it has to do with what feels right for you. Some people it's fun, it's natural, they enjoy it. And I'm not saying I don't enjoy social media and even creating posts for quote unquote work posts. But I think for other people it's actually even more fun. And if that feels like the thing that's natural to you to connect with people and get the word out, then you should go with that. I mean I worked with a couple people a few months ago in Germany and there were a couple of women teachers in the training - lovely teachers, we connected, they wanted to stay in touch, but they were like, you know what? I don't do email. I just am on social media. That's how I connect. I didn't want to be on any mailing list or anything.
12:32 I'm like, okay, that's your thing. And I really think that if you don't have a mailing list, social media can be great as long as it really in your gut feels like it's a good fit for you in a way to communicate with other people. I don't necessarily even think that that's an age thing. I think it's just a personality thing. And, I would much rather write out an email newsletter and write someone back or response through old fashioned email, then have direct messages in my Instagram account and messages and Facebook that I know are hanging out there that I haven't responded to. And to me it just gets to feel really messy and it starts to scramble my brain, but for other people, again, just if that feels like a natural, easy means of communication, then it's probably going to work for them more. It doesn't feel natural and it feels forced. It's probably not in the end going to work.
13:43 Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I do think though that your take on analyzing where your, clients and students came from is important because just throwing it out there is, and even if it does feel good, that's great. But if you're actually expecting to get something back out of it, I think it's important to kind of track that and say, yeah, it is working or it isn't. And you can try some new things if it's not working. But just to think about, is this really worth my time? Because a business takes up a lot of time and you really have to put your energies and resources into whatever you're trying to achieve. I know everybody's different.
14:42 I mean I think there's two important things. Also, it's got a feel. It can't feel like a burden. If you're going to keep up writing a newsletter. If you're going to keep up doing a once a week post on social media or 10 posts a day, it's got to be something that you can actually sustain both timewise, energy and that you look forward to. Don't put off and don't procrastinate. And I think for me too, most of the people that I connect with and that are my students and clients are not 20 and 30 something year olds. They're 40 and up, which I think is also, you got to look at that demographic and most of them are not on social media or so as social media savvy as someone in their teens or twenties. So that's a big reality also.
15:40 That's true. So what's your market in and who are you trying to attract? Because that's going to make a difference. Although I have heard that with Facebook and I don't know if it's true, the others, I think maybe they've all migrated to something else. But it's really over forties becoming the majority on Facebook and that the young ones are leaving. I don't know quite where they're going, but that's okay. Because I don't mind my group is not young either. If you were to give some advice to just starting now, how, and given that you've said, Hey, it has to feel good, it has to feel right for you. What do you think is been the best return on investment to use one of those businessy terms for you and might be for someone else?
16:42 In terms of advertising?
16:44 Yeah. Yeah.
16:48 I mean for me it's hands down a mailing list for sure. No doubt. And I, thankfully, I don't even remember who it was, but it was probably 16 years ago where I barely used email and yeah, it was longer ago than that I guess, but maybe about 16 years ago that someone suggested to me to start a mailing list. And I thought like, why do that? I teach at the studio. I wasn't thinking five or 10 20 years down the road.
And thank God somebody suggested that to me because it's really interesting and it's a bit of a Murphy's law type of thing. In my experience whether it's on social media or mailing list, there's the people that you meet that are like, I'm coming to your next retreat and I'm signing up for the streaming site and I want privates with you and I'll be in touch and you never see that person again. And then there's the people that were always in the back of your class that were on the mailing list 15 years ago, that you hear something like once every five years and they're still on your mailing list. And they comment on, having stayed watching for however many years and you just never know, who those people are really going to be and who's going to just all of a sudden show up at a retreat and be like, Oh my gosh, you've been on my mailing list for 15 years. I never hear from you. And here you are.
And the people in my experience, the people that you know talk about like, Oh, we're coming into this and I'm going to do this. you never hear from him again. And it's, there's something about people actually in person writing down, with pen and paper, their email that is become, I think more intimate than someone is scrolling through their phone and on their screen just being able to like this and that and comment. But it's not, it's not as much as an investment in some ways. So anyway, point being whoever it was at first told me to start gathering emails, I think them. And that has been hands down the best thing for me in terms of staying in touch with people. And marketing by far. and I actually just talked to the couple of new teachers that, one guy got 22 people on his mailing list and he's like, should I start a newsletter? I'm like, well, sure, if that is, he enjoyed the writing, he enjoys the actual process of it. you get two people on your mailing list, 22 people, and if you feel drawn towards that and you actually enjoy connecting with people through writing and typing, then go for it. But even if you don't enjoy the email thing, I'd say there's no harm in building an email list. Even if you don't use it five years from now, you could have a hundred, 200 people on it and you just never know when you might need that or that it might really help you.
20:03 I think that's, that's good advice. I have, an email list and a newsletter that goes out and I'm always amazed that people stay on the list. I agree with you. I think it is more intimate if they've stayed on that list years and years and years, whether they've ever commented or gave you any feedback at all. but they know it's going to come out once a month or every six weeks or whatever your particular schedule might be. I think it is much more, there's just not as much noise in that. It's very much the person that wrote it.
20:54 And it's interesting. I recently did send out an email. My emails are different. I've really tried to stick with a format and follow a plan and it just doesn't really work for me. It has to feel more real and inspired following a format. And so sometimes my newsletter is very short. This is what's coming up due to the three things going on this summer. Hope to see you at one of them, period. Done. and then sometimes like this two newsletters ago, I was just, I felt inspired to sit down and write a newsletter. I told people that I had family issues going on. I told people I'm a little bit more just more personal things while protecting my family's privacy. I don't gush too much or anything like that. I had a couple of people that are very close to me respond and say, I think you made a mistake and I think you put yourself in a corner. And that was a little much. I had two people respond like that.
And I also looking back through Mail Chimp, cause they can track how many people respond and open and read it and all. I had more response to that newsletter than I've had in any newsletter in literally over a decade because it was real this is what's going on, this is what I want for you. Hope to see you, it's more than that. But it was the most real and open newsletter I had written in a very long time.
And I got the most support back from it and it was a really good reminder and lesson that, yes, I'm running a business but, essentially I am selling myself. So if I just keep it all very businesslike, that's not, that's not what I do in the moment. That's not actually what's going on while we're teaching and connecting with people. And it's one thing if I were writing the newsletter for a studio facility, but I'm writing it just as me and it was a good reminder that it's, that it's good and actually helpful to be open in our newsletters and social media, I think, to a degree.
23:31 I agree. I think your point that basically you're selling yourself and people have to feel that they know you. I've been in business things where, people say, Oh, I'm supposed to be vulnerable. And I am supposed to tell you that yes, I am a business coach, but that doesn't mean I'm perfect. And it always embarrassed me quite frankly. But over the years I've thought - that's right - to know that they have problems too and that they haven't solved everything. It can be a bit daunting if you don't have a really big background in business; I came from a different world entirely. So it's been quite an experiment and that's why I think I was so fascinated by what you were saying that, we get all this advice but it really does come down to what do you feel like, what makes you think it's authentic when you're talking to people? Is it through a post? Okay, cool. That's fine. Or is it an email or whatever or in person, it's that connection.
24:45 I think that that is the part of, I mean obviously when it comes to teaching, I've really gravitated in my teaching towards things that are technical and, and a little more scientific. Although a lot of my background is in dance and improvisation and, and the arts. And I think that that really comes out in the, in how we feel comfortable marketing ourselves.
Because I know for me, even though I may be promoting a technical video on how to access your transverse abdominals, I cannot, or maybe I'm just not willing to follow a system of, okay, Jamie, at eight o'clock on Monday morning, you're doing educational posts and at 6:00 PM on Mondays you do an intimate fun posts. And at Tuesdays at 9:00 AM you do an advertorial posts. And I'm, I'd like that to me, I can't do it. It's a structure, which is, I like structure and it's good for us, but it doesn't feel authentic in the moment. And I think again, for, at least for me, social media has to feel just kind of like fly by the seat of my pants in the moment. And those again are the posts that get the most interaction and feedback and that are things that I personally, I can't, I can't plan and still feel inspired to do.
26:23 I agree. I've seen that formula, you have to have a funny one, an informative one.. . And I did it for a while, but it just kind of went by the wayside. So I'm pretty sure it wasn't anything I was really excited about.
26:45 That's the kind of the proof, I think that this is not working for me.
26:50 I'll do that tomorrow. Yeah, I know it's not on the schedule but I'll do it tomorrow. What I was shocked at, and I realized this is probably just my inability to see clearly, but what the podcast was doing was providing connections and I hadn't ever thought of it as being that kind of media. I just thought of it as being informative and trying to get out the word that there's a lot more to yoga than maybe you see in an ad.
And what I got back was people saying, I'm in an isolated area and it's so nice to hear other yoga teachers talking. And I said, wait, Whoa, wait, wait, wait. This is wholly different than what I thought it was going to be. And, it's just been kind of an interesting process, that it's really the connection that people appreciate as well as what everyone does. I think that goes on in social media. It has to be the connection that you're looking for. And if it's not there or it's not authentic, then I think it's probably important to think about whether that's really an important thing to be doing.
28:16 Right. And I think people feel it. I mean, I think we even know it when we're posting or, like trying to get a picture for a certain post or we're writing a post and it just isn't coming out right. I think we know when it feels forced. And I think you're right that social media is all about connection. Hopefully. whether it is, well, it has a different theme or not from post to post or person to person or whatever your business is. It is about connection and, and people feeling a part of an online community. we feel community in so many different ways.
It's like people, really so often why people go to a yoga class, it's more about the community than anything else. People go to church, that's why when we're looking at Instagram or Facebook, from our phone and we're home or somewhere alone, it makes us feel like we are a part of. A few months ago we had, we, meaning my husband and I, we had just a series of events that were really disruptive. And I along with that I was spending all this time too much time on work, spending too much time on social media and I committed to taking a week off of social media.
And that's when I knew it was really a problem for me was when I said to take a week off. It seems like a long time. And the first couple of days I felt like I was missing out. I felt lonely. I felt like the world was moving on without me. It made me agitated. it gave me anxiety. Like, if I don't log in and like, or comment on somebody's comment or whatever it is, people are going to forget about me. The first few days were really hard as if I felt I felt lost from my life out there.
And that was a really good lesson to observe. Like wow, this is a problem. And that's when the week off it turned into, I don't know how like five weeks. Cause once I kicked the habit, I put all of my social media apps on my iPhone, I put them on the last page. They're not just like on the homepage of the phone. And then I made designated times like, all right, I'm going to do this at this time and this at this time. And that's it. I had all sound and visual notifications turned off on my phone for everything. Texts, everything including social media. And there's just designated times now that I check it. But actually once I took the break from it, it was hard to get back into it. I was like, Ugh. This is a drag and this is just so silly - like what are we doing? and how much time was I spending doing all of this?
31:51 It's a little, if you actually sat down and thought, kept a log of how much time you were on, I think it might be a bit shocking for everyone. Not you personally, but all of us, you know?
32:06 Yes. I think you're right. I mean even those of us that now spend some time once or twice a week, I think it would still be shocking if we really added up the time, where you check those comments or do a couple of likes while you're in the bathroom. If you added up all those moments, it can be a shocking amount of time. And is it how I want to spend my life and if you're doing it for work, is it really helping?
32:45 Yes. Is it, and it's not easy to measure, but at least you should have some idea, because it does take up a lot of time. I agree. okay. So, Jamie, I will give you the opportunity if you would like to either talk about something that we haven't talked about at all that you think is important and, or you'd like to go into depth into a topic that we, we discussed a little. So I'll give you that opportunity to kind of say whatever you'd like to the listeners.
33:15 Hmm. Wow, okay. Let's open that. Rein it in. Well, I guess not that I have, decades and decades of experience in this, but I guess what I feel like is that for me now that I do think is important to pass on is it is good to ask for help in terms of business coaches and asking people that are doing what you want to do, asking them, how did you do it?
Did you build an email list? Do you use Facebook or do you use Instagram or do you use LinkedIn? Or, and really looking at, not just taking advice from people that say they're good at giving advice, but really people whose life reflects something that do you want to be like, and especially when it comes I think to teaching yoga. I've just recently changed my business name to movement therapy company and taken the name yoga out of it. It's very intimate what we do and as time goes on, we learn more about how we best connect with people.
To observe what works best for you, what your real nature is and not that we shouldn't challenge ourselves and not that, if we are yoga teachers, it's not that we're going to be able to do the business side. Great. And vice versa. We can't wear every hat and be a Jack of all trades and great at all of those things. But if you're an independent teacher or if you teach at studios or you see privates or you're a yoga therapist, I would say more than ever with so many resources we have on line, in social media, through newsletters, really notice like what do you sit down and feel excited to do when it comes to your business and go that route and take advice from other people and try it on.
Don't just say like, Oh, that's just not me. I'm not going to do that. Try it. You may surprise yourself and there's some things like, our monthly accounting or whatever it is that we just have to do because that being a grownup and that's being an adult and we have to do it regardless. But when it comes to how you connect with people in your work, in our work, don't necessarily try to do it like somebody else just because they're a coach or they're a business professional. Because I think people can feel when it feels forced, they can feel when you're holding back or it's contrived, Whether it's through writing or whether it's through a video or whether it's through, a post on Instagram. And I've, in my streaming site, I've had the site less than two years and it's been one of the greatest and hardest things I've ever done personally. Because I'm a trained modern dancer so I'm used to being on stage playing a role. My teaching is, was hard for me for many years at first because I had to be myself and that's super vulnerable and scary and my God been seeing myself on film. It was a massive leap for me in the last couple of years. And what's interesting is I try to sometimes get behind the camera or get in front of the camera and get all professional and have my little script and it just, it looks cheesy. It's hokey cause I'm not just being natural. And the days that I put on the camera and I do a practice of how to strengthen your feet and ankles wearing jeans and I got my dog in the background. The video quality is good, it's great content, but I'm being myself and it all works out, a thousand times better.
How we market, how we run our business and how we teach all go hand in hand where we need to continue to teach. Just like you have to step into the front of the room and be yourself or you go to somebody's house and work with them one on one. You have to be to yourself. Try to find a ways of marketing and connecting with the community online in person through writing that still feels like you so that you don't feel like you're trying to have different personalities. It's all one big yoga process including how we market and really pay attention to that because if it feels forced, you're not going to be able to sustain it.
38:34 Yes. I think that's a very good point. If it doesn't feel right for you, you just can't force yourself to do it for any length of time. Well thank you so much Jamie. I want to give your contact details so that people will know how to contact you. Her email is [email protected] and the website is the same. Okay. Facebook is movement therapy company as is Instagram. So I will have all those in the show notes. But thank you so much Jamie. I think you really put the marketing in a context that probably feels better for all of us instead of all these things that we're supposed to do, but really looking at what is authentic for me. Because that's the only way I can continue to do this kind of stuff. So thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on. It's been really interesting.
39:47 Thank you so much Stephanie. I really appreciate it. Fun, fun stuff to discuss and ever changing. And for those of you up there that have listened to this, thank you for tuning in. I really appreciate it.
Contact Details:
Email: [email protected]
www.movementtherapyco.com
FB and Insta: movement therapy company
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By Stephanie CunninghamEpisode 127: Social Media: yes, no or sometimes? with Jamie Elmer
Major Points:
- It is a given that we use social media to market our business. Is this a good decision for everyone? Does is feel right? Does it bring in clients, students, etc. ? Is it an effective use of your time?
- Does cutting back on social media have a deleterious effect? Or does curating your posts give you produce more engagement? Jamie's found that a human connection through meeting people and having them on her email list feels more authentic to her.
- If someone doesn't have an email list, social media can be a good place to start. But it must feel like a natural, authentic thing for someone to do. Is it fun? Is it something you dread? You have to find the path that feels good for you because you won't continue if you don't.
00:00 This is changing the face of yoga and this is episode 127 and this is part of the yoga teacher support theme. I'm speaking to Jamie Elmer and Jamie is an experienced RYT 500 teacher. She also provides continuing education through her streaming site. We'll get into that a little bit more. She has been teaching yoga and movement therapy full time, which is impressive for over 18 years. She specializes in alignment, applied anatomy and healing injuries. Jamie travels to teach teacher training, continuing education immersions, retreats, sees students online and has an online streaming video membership site for teachers or for students and as a continuing education resource for teachers. Jamie, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate, your sharing with us on this podcast. Is there anything else you want to add to that particular introduction?
01:18 No, thank you. Thanks for having me. I think that about covers it.
01:26 The reason I asked Jamie to be on the podcast, especially on this theme of yoga teacher support as you can tell, she's very busy. She's doing lots of different things, which probably requires marketing. Either to other yoga teacher trainings, people or to students or for her video streaming site. But she had posted about she was really looking at social media and how that was supposed to support her efforts. And so I know I've had several business coaches and they always tell you have to be on all these social media sites It's really, really important. But I think we should think about it. And since Jamie has thought about it, I asked her to come on and to talk a little bit about it. So, I assume Jamie and I could be wrong, that you have used social media to, in part, market your offerings and are now thinking about, I suppose the efficacy of it, if that's true. So I just like you to kind of set the stage for where you were and why you decided it needed more thought.
02:52 Well thanks. yes, for seeing that on social media and I did think it would be a good topic to bring up because, I too have worked with some coaches that have been great and I've been encouraged to use social media. I also feel like I've come up as a teacher as social media was coming into our life and it was just a given that of course we were going to use social media and of course we needed to be on Facebook and of course we needed to be on Instagram. And it's just a given that that's what you do, without really even thinking about is this natural for me? Does it feel right? Is this really where I'm getting my clients? is this really where I'm putting my students and is it an effective use of my time?
I don't, I in no way hate social media. I enjoy it, but I've learned that I need to enjoy it and want to enjoy it in moderation, both just personally and professionally. Because I am the first to admit that I started going down this rabbit hole probably about a year and a half ago where I was really trying to build my business.
As I was launching the streaming site and traveling more than ever and really were quote unquote working more than ever. But most of my work was all behind a computer screen at my desk, not teaching. I went down that rabbit hole of I kind of took the bait thinking I need to be on social media as much as possible. And I started out with posting four times a week and had a whole grid and the theme and the blah, blah, blah of all right, this is what I do at 8:00 AM on Tuesdays and this is when I do it, noon on Tuesdays and I started spending so much time on this thing that really I don't enjoy spending that much time on. It's not natural for me.
And a year and a half into it, I realized that the people that are still connecting with me, the people that still respond to my newsletter, the people that still come on a retreat, the people I'm seeing for privates, these people, most of them I'd say 99% of them are all people that I've worked with in person and are on my mailing list.
05:33 I'm not like the next YouTube, 20 something year old model on Instagram that people are just going to start to follow, that's just not me, never me. And I'm not the type of person that idolizes people like that either. And so for me trying to put on this presence, it was suggested to me that I actually get an acting coach to help me for my social media posts. And when I got, when I heard that on the other end of the phone, literally in my mind, something just clicked and I was like, I'm out. I'm done. It's not me. Just not me. And there's only so much time on the day, you know? It's a medium that I do enjoy.
06:41 I think it's useful to remind people, Hey, I'm still here, out there doing this if you're interested. And I've cut back to about once a week that I post on Instagram and Facebook and that feels good. I like sharing an event. I like sharing some helpful tips. and I think people like it for me at least, they like hearing from me in moderation. instead of, Oh Jamie is going to like post 5 or 8 times today. I'll catch her next time. You know? And it just, it was so unnatural. I can't even describe it, let alone just a total energy and time suck from actually what's most important in my life, which is not to become an Instagram star. Like that's not even a possibility anyway. So why try,
07:41 You say that you're really getting your clients and your students from your mailing list and, and how do you build that mailing list if you don't use social media?
07:52 Well, I would say that the majority of people that are on my mailing list are people that I have worked with in person. And I think that people connect in different ways. I think that we gravitate towards different people in different ways. I'm not someone, even though I have a streaming site, as I mentioned, I'm not someone that people are going to see on screen or see in a photo shoot and be like, wow, I want to be her. I mean, I connect more with people in person.
I mean I think the reality is that most of us do, I mean we see someone like in a movie or in a photo shoot and it's different. And so I've built my mailing list through working with people in person and then once in a while I'll put out a post on social media about, if you want to be part of my mailing list, click here. And a few people will sign on. It usually is that human connection that's been made and not a stranger browsing the internet or browsing social media and connecting with me that way. That happens once in a while, but not very often.
09:13 Okay, you've actually done some analysis of where your new clients, students, opportunities are coming from and social media is not contributing a whole lot to that. Is that a fair statement?
09:33 Yeah, and I would say the people that stay in touch with me via social media, the people that comment, the people that like, the people that repost a post of mine, usually those people also are people that I've worked with at some point in the last 20 years in person. So the social media crowd, that interaction is still most of the people that are on my mail, my email list.
10:04 Okay.
10:06 And, and I'd say the same goes with YouTube. I had a YouTube channel and really worked that for awhile and I have paused it right now basically. because I also find that people that are going to get content from YouTube, they're going to stay YouTube users, they're going to stay the users that want something for free. And it doesn't actually drive people to anything that, requires more of a financial commitment.
10:36 No, that's, that's a good thing. Good thing to know because, I agree with you, it can be a real time suck that you just spend so much time getting posts ready and stuff. I just put out one post a week on whatever my newest podcast is and that takes time. You have 20 years of experience behind you. Obviously you've made lots and lots of contacts over your teaching and video streaming and your students and your clients. But if someone is brand new and really doesn't have a lot of those contacts and doesn't have a mail list, do you think that there's some value there in social media?
11:30 Yeah, I definitely think so. And I really think that it has to do with what feels right for you. Some people it's fun, it's natural, they enjoy it. And I'm not saying I don't enjoy social media and even creating posts for quote unquote work posts. But I think for other people it's actually even more fun. And if that feels like the thing that's natural to you to connect with people and get the word out, then you should go with that. I mean I worked with a couple people a few months ago in Germany and there were a couple of women teachers in the training - lovely teachers, we connected, they wanted to stay in touch, but they were like, you know what? I don't do email. I just am on social media. That's how I connect. I didn't want to be on any mailing list or anything.
12:32 I'm like, okay, that's your thing. And I really think that if you don't have a mailing list, social media can be great as long as it really in your gut feels like it's a good fit for you in a way to communicate with other people. I don't necessarily even think that that's an age thing. I think it's just a personality thing. And, I would much rather write out an email newsletter and write someone back or response through old fashioned email, then have direct messages in my Instagram account and messages and Facebook that I know are hanging out there that I haven't responded to. And to me it just gets to feel really messy and it starts to scramble my brain, but for other people, again, just if that feels like a natural, easy means of communication, then it's probably going to work for them more. It doesn't feel natural and it feels forced. It's probably not in the end going to work.
13:43 Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I do think though that your take on analyzing where your, clients and students came from is important because just throwing it out there is, and even if it does feel good, that's great. But if you're actually expecting to get something back out of it, I think it's important to kind of track that and say, yeah, it is working or it isn't. And you can try some new things if it's not working. But just to think about, is this really worth my time? Because a business takes up a lot of time and you really have to put your energies and resources into whatever you're trying to achieve. I know everybody's different.
14:42 I mean I think there's two important things. Also, it's got a feel. It can't feel like a burden. If you're going to keep up writing a newsletter. If you're going to keep up doing a once a week post on social media or 10 posts a day, it's got to be something that you can actually sustain both timewise, energy and that you look forward to. Don't put off and don't procrastinate. And I think for me too, most of the people that I connect with and that are my students and clients are not 20 and 30 something year olds. They're 40 and up, which I think is also, you got to look at that demographic and most of them are not on social media or so as social media savvy as someone in their teens or twenties. So that's a big reality also.
15:40 That's true. So what's your market in and who are you trying to attract? Because that's going to make a difference. Although I have heard that with Facebook and I don't know if it's true, the others, I think maybe they've all migrated to something else. But it's really over forties becoming the majority on Facebook and that the young ones are leaving. I don't know quite where they're going, but that's okay. Because I don't mind my group is not young either. If you were to give some advice to just starting now, how, and given that you've said, Hey, it has to feel good, it has to feel right for you. What do you think is been the best return on investment to use one of those businessy terms for you and might be for someone else?
16:42 In terms of advertising?
16:44 Yeah. Yeah.
16:48 I mean for me it's hands down a mailing list for sure. No doubt. And I, thankfully, I don't even remember who it was, but it was probably 16 years ago where I barely used email and yeah, it was longer ago than that I guess, but maybe about 16 years ago that someone suggested to me to start a mailing list. And I thought like, why do that? I teach at the studio. I wasn't thinking five or 10 20 years down the road.
And thank God somebody suggested that to me because it's really interesting and it's a bit of a Murphy's law type of thing. In my experience whether it's on social media or mailing list, there's the people that you meet that are like, I'm coming to your next retreat and I'm signing up for the streaming site and I want privates with you and I'll be in touch and you never see that person again. And then there's the people that were always in the back of your class that were on the mailing list 15 years ago, that you hear something like once every five years and they're still on your mailing list. And they comment on, having stayed watching for however many years and you just never know, who those people are really going to be and who's going to just all of a sudden show up at a retreat and be like, Oh my gosh, you've been on my mailing list for 15 years. I never hear from you. And here you are.
And the people in my experience, the people that you know talk about like, Oh, we're coming into this and I'm going to do this. you never hear from him again. And it's, there's something about people actually in person writing down, with pen and paper, their email that is become, I think more intimate than someone is scrolling through their phone and on their screen just being able to like this and that and comment. But it's not, it's not as much as an investment in some ways. So anyway, point being whoever it was at first told me to start gathering emails, I think them. And that has been hands down the best thing for me in terms of staying in touch with people. And marketing by far. and I actually just talked to the couple of new teachers that, one guy got 22 people on his mailing list and he's like, should I start a newsletter? I'm like, well, sure, if that is, he enjoyed the writing, he enjoys the actual process of it. you get two people on your mailing list, 22 people, and if you feel drawn towards that and you actually enjoy connecting with people through writing and typing, then go for it. But even if you don't enjoy the email thing, I'd say there's no harm in building an email list. Even if you don't use it five years from now, you could have a hundred, 200 people on it and you just never know when you might need that or that it might really help you.
20:03 I think that's, that's good advice. I have, an email list and a newsletter that goes out and I'm always amazed that people stay on the list. I agree with you. I think it is more intimate if they've stayed on that list years and years and years, whether they've ever commented or gave you any feedback at all. but they know it's going to come out once a month or every six weeks or whatever your particular schedule might be. I think it is much more, there's just not as much noise in that. It's very much the person that wrote it.
20:54 And it's interesting. I recently did send out an email. My emails are different. I've really tried to stick with a format and follow a plan and it just doesn't really work for me. It has to feel more real and inspired following a format. And so sometimes my newsletter is very short. This is what's coming up due to the three things going on this summer. Hope to see you at one of them, period. Done. and then sometimes like this two newsletters ago, I was just, I felt inspired to sit down and write a newsletter. I told people that I had family issues going on. I told people I'm a little bit more just more personal things while protecting my family's privacy. I don't gush too much or anything like that. I had a couple of people that are very close to me respond and say, I think you made a mistake and I think you put yourself in a corner. And that was a little much. I had two people respond like that.
And I also looking back through Mail Chimp, cause they can track how many people respond and open and read it and all. I had more response to that newsletter than I've had in any newsletter in literally over a decade because it was real this is what's going on, this is what I want for you. Hope to see you, it's more than that. But it was the most real and open newsletter I had written in a very long time.
And I got the most support back from it and it was a really good reminder and lesson that, yes, I'm running a business but, essentially I am selling myself. So if I just keep it all very businesslike, that's not, that's not what I do in the moment. That's not actually what's going on while we're teaching and connecting with people. And it's one thing if I were writing the newsletter for a studio facility, but I'm writing it just as me and it was a good reminder that it's, that it's good and actually helpful to be open in our newsletters and social media, I think, to a degree.
23:31 I agree. I think your point that basically you're selling yourself and people have to feel that they know you. I've been in business things where, people say, Oh, I'm supposed to be vulnerable. And I am supposed to tell you that yes, I am a business coach, but that doesn't mean I'm perfect. And it always embarrassed me quite frankly. But over the years I've thought - that's right - to know that they have problems too and that they haven't solved everything. It can be a bit daunting if you don't have a really big background in business; I came from a different world entirely. So it's been quite an experiment and that's why I think I was so fascinated by what you were saying that, we get all this advice but it really does come down to what do you feel like, what makes you think it's authentic when you're talking to people? Is it through a post? Okay, cool. That's fine. Or is it an email or whatever or in person, it's that connection.
24:45 I think that that is the part of, I mean obviously when it comes to teaching, I've really gravitated in my teaching towards things that are technical and, and a little more scientific. Although a lot of my background is in dance and improvisation and, and the arts. And I think that that really comes out in the, in how we feel comfortable marketing ourselves.
Because I know for me, even though I may be promoting a technical video on how to access your transverse abdominals, I cannot, or maybe I'm just not willing to follow a system of, okay, Jamie, at eight o'clock on Monday morning, you're doing educational posts and at 6:00 PM on Mondays you do an intimate fun posts. And at Tuesdays at 9:00 AM you do an advertorial posts. And I'm, I'd like that to me, I can't do it. It's a structure, which is, I like structure and it's good for us, but it doesn't feel authentic in the moment. And I think again, for, at least for me, social media has to feel just kind of like fly by the seat of my pants in the moment. And those again are the posts that get the most interaction and feedback and that are things that I personally, I can't, I can't plan and still feel inspired to do.
26:23 I agree. I've seen that formula, you have to have a funny one, an informative one.. . And I did it for a while, but it just kind of went by the wayside. So I'm pretty sure it wasn't anything I was really excited about.
26:45 That's the kind of the proof, I think that this is not working for me.
26:50 I'll do that tomorrow. Yeah, I know it's not on the schedule but I'll do it tomorrow. What I was shocked at, and I realized this is probably just my inability to see clearly, but what the podcast was doing was providing connections and I hadn't ever thought of it as being that kind of media. I just thought of it as being informative and trying to get out the word that there's a lot more to yoga than maybe you see in an ad.
And what I got back was people saying, I'm in an isolated area and it's so nice to hear other yoga teachers talking. And I said, wait, Whoa, wait, wait, wait. This is wholly different than what I thought it was going to be. And, it's just been kind of an interesting process, that it's really the connection that people appreciate as well as what everyone does. I think that goes on in social media. It has to be the connection that you're looking for. And if it's not there or it's not authentic, then I think it's probably important to think about whether that's really an important thing to be doing.
28:16 Right. And I think people feel it. I mean, I think we even know it when we're posting or, like trying to get a picture for a certain post or we're writing a post and it just isn't coming out right. I think we know when it feels forced. And I think you're right that social media is all about connection. Hopefully. whether it is, well, it has a different theme or not from post to post or person to person or whatever your business is. It is about connection and, and people feeling a part of an online community. we feel community in so many different ways.
It's like people, really so often why people go to a yoga class, it's more about the community than anything else. People go to church, that's why when we're looking at Instagram or Facebook, from our phone and we're home or somewhere alone, it makes us feel like we are a part of. A few months ago we had, we, meaning my husband and I, we had just a series of events that were really disruptive. And I along with that I was spending all this time too much time on work, spending too much time on social media and I committed to taking a week off of social media.
And that's when I knew it was really a problem for me was when I said to take a week off. It seems like a long time. And the first couple of days I felt like I was missing out. I felt lonely. I felt like the world was moving on without me. It made me agitated. it gave me anxiety. Like, if I don't log in and like, or comment on somebody's comment or whatever it is, people are going to forget about me. The first few days were really hard as if I felt I felt lost from my life out there.
And that was a really good lesson to observe. Like wow, this is a problem. And that's when the week off it turned into, I don't know how like five weeks. Cause once I kicked the habit, I put all of my social media apps on my iPhone, I put them on the last page. They're not just like on the homepage of the phone. And then I made designated times like, all right, I'm going to do this at this time and this at this time. And that's it. I had all sound and visual notifications turned off on my phone for everything. Texts, everything including social media. And there's just designated times now that I check it. But actually once I took the break from it, it was hard to get back into it. I was like, Ugh. This is a drag and this is just so silly - like what are we doing? and how much time was I spending doing all of this?
31:51 It's a little, if you actually sat down and thought, kept a log of how much time you were on, I think it might be a bit shocking for everyone. Not you personally, but all of us, you know?
32:06 Yes. I think you're right. I mean even those of us that now spend some time once or twice a week, I think it would still be shocking if we really added up the time, where you check those comments or do a couple of likes while you're in the bathroom. If you added up all those moments, it can be a shocking amount of time. And is it how I want to spend my life and if you're doing it for work, is it really helping?
32:45 Yes. Is it, and it's not easy to measure, but at least you should have some idea, because it does take up a lot of time. I agree. okay. So, Jamie, I will give you the opportunity if you would like to either talk about something that we haven't talked about at all that you think is important and, or you'd like to go into depth into a topic that we, we discussed a little. So I'll give you that opportunity to kind of say whatever you'd like to the listeners.
33:15 Hmm. Wow, okay. Let's open that. Rein it in. Well, I guess not that I have, decades and decades of experience in this, but I guess what I feel like is that for me now that I do think is important to pass on is it is good to ask for help in terms of business coaches and asking people that are doing what you want to do, asking them, how did you do it?
Did you build an email list? Do you use Facebook or do you use Instagram or do you use LinkedIn? Or, and really looking at, not just taking advice from people that say they're good at giving advice, but really people whose life reflects something that do you want to be like, and especially when it comes I think to teaching yoga. I've just recently changed my business name to movement therapy company and taken the name yoga out of it. It's very intimate what we do and as time goes on, we learn more about how we best connect with people.
To observe what works best for you, what your real nature is and not that we shouldn't challenge ourselves and not that, if we are yoga teachers, it's not that we're going to be able to do the business side. Great. And vice versa. We can't wear every hat and be a Jack of all trades and great at all of those things. But if you're an independent teacher or if you teach at studios or you see privates or you're a yoga therapist, I would say more than ever with so many resources we have on line, in social media, through newsletters, really notice like what do you sit down and feel excited to do when it comes to your business and go that route and take advice from other people and try it on.
Don't just say like, Oh, that's just not me. I'm not going to do that. Try it. You may surprise yourself and there's some things like, our monthly accounting or whatever it is that we just have to do because that being a grownup and that's being an adult and we have to do it regardless. But when it comes to how you connect with people in your work, in our work, don't necessarily try to do it like somebody else just because they're a coach or they're a business professional. Because I think people can feel when it feels forced, they can feel when you're holding back or it's contrived, Whether it's through writing or whether it's through a video or whether it's through, a post on Instagram. And I've, in my streaming site, I've had the site less than two years and it's been one of the greatest and hardest things I've ever done personally. Because I'm a trained modern dancer so I'm used to being on stage playing a role. My teaching is, was hard for me for many years at first because I had to be myself and that's super vulnerable and scary and my God been seeing myself on film. It was a massive leap for me in the last couple of years. And what's interesting is I try to sometimes get behind the camera or get in front of the camera and get all professional and have my little script and it just, it looks cheesy. It's hokey cause I'm not just being natural. And the days that I put on the camera and I do a practice of how to strengthen your feet and ankles wearing jeans and I got my dog in the background. The video quality is good, it's great content, but I'm being myself and it all works out, a thousand times better.
How we market, how we run our business and how we teach all go hand in hand where we need to continue to teach. Just like you have to step into the front of the room and be yourself or you go to somebody's house and work with them one on one. You have to be to yourself. Try to find a ways of marketing and connecting with the community online in person through writing that still feels like you so that you don't feel like you're trying to have different personalities. It's all one big yoga process including how we market and really pay attention to that because if it feels forced, you're not going to be able to sustain it.
38:34 Yes. I think that's a very good point. If it doesn't feel right for you, you just can't force yourself to do it for any length of time. Well thank you so much Jamie. I want to give your contact details so that people will know how to contact you. Her email is [email protected] and the website is the same. Okay. Facebook is movement therapy company as is Instagram. So I will have all those in the show notes. But thank you so much Jamie. I think you really put the marketing in a context that probably feels better for all of us instead of all these things that we're supposed to do, but really looking at what is authentic for me. Because that's the only way I can continue to do this kind of stuff. So thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on. It's been really interesting.
39:47 Thank you so much Stephanie. I really appreciate it. Fun, fun stuff to discuss and ever changing. And for those of you up there that have listened to this, thank you for tuning in. I really appreciate it.
Contact Details:
Email: [email protected]
www.movementtherapyco.com
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