Changing the Face of Yoga Podcast

Changing the Face of Yoga; episode 128. Aqua Yoga with Christa Fairbrother

Major points:

1. Balance between offloading weight by being in the water and the hydrostatic pressure ("maple syrup" effect) that has the water pressing on the body from all directions.
2. Offloading weight by being in the water is very helpful for people with joint problems.
3. Aqua yoga is a form of accessible yoga that is very helpful for older students, students with arthritis and chronic pain.

00:45                                     This is Changing the Face of Yoga and this is the 128th episode. My guest today is Christa Fairbrother and we're going to talk about something that we've never had on the podcast before. And that's about aqua yoga. And I find this very fascinating. I tried it once, teaching it. I was really much pretty, pretty awful at it. So I am really looking forward to talking to Christa about things that you should do for your students when you're participant or guiding that kind of yoga class. So welcome Christa. Christa has been living with arthritis and teaching yoga. She believes they are integrated. She had arthritis for more than 20 years before she knew about it and had a hard time reconciling everything she had achieved and her relative lack of pain and extensive joint damage. She gave her lifelong yoga practice the credit and now helps other people get more comfort in their joints and use the tools of yoga to manage their health. Aqua Yoga is their focus because it is kind to people's joints and is so accessible. It's an easy way to start a yoga practice. It allows people who've lost a land practice to continue and challenges people with an active land practice to explore their bodies in new ways. Welcome Christa. And I think there's going to be a fascinating podcast that this is a very interesting topic, I think.

02:26                                     Well thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about it.

02:31                                     Great, like I said, I had my students ask me if I would give them an aqua yoga class and I found it amazingly difficult. It was very hard to keep them moving enough to keep them warm.

02:48                                     Yes.

02:48                                     That's good. I wasn't just me. All right.

02:52                                     No, it is a different medium. You're in the water and there are some considerations. The facility you're working at, the water temperature might be a challenge and so you have to teach to your environment the same as you would in a land class. As yoga teachers who teach on land, we wouldn't think about that. Right?

                                                It's like we put somebody in a posture and talk about yoga philosophy, intention and breath, not in the pool. People are starting to shiver and looking at you like, I've been standing here and I'm dying. It is not aerobics. And that's a concern I get from yoga professionals is, well, how is this really yoga? You're getting in the pool and you're maybe moving around and that's maybe not mindful. It's not grounding. There's no yoga philosophy. How do you incorporate breathwork? I hear different concerns from people and these are all valid concerns that we do manage as teachers and we do, at least the way I teach them, the other professionals I know really do try to stay true to the lineage and practice of yoga. It's just that we're doing it in a different medium of water, which means you might have to approach it a little differently to keep the warmth.

04:15                                     Yeah, I realized that. When I got in the middle of the class, I should have prepared a bit better because I really wasn't expecting that and I was up on the side so I wasn't getting cold.

04:29                                     But you're getting warm.

04:31                                     Yes, so what does an aqua yoga class look like?

04:43                                     Yes. So great question. I'll just round out the temperature thing by saying if you're in 80 (degrees) would be the end range of like really what's too cool. And then all the way up to 90 is, especially you mentioned in the intro how I have arthritis and I work with people who have arthritis. If you have the choice to work in a therapy pool, which is like that 90 degree temperature, that's really great. So on average for most people there are considerations where that can be, you know, have to change a little bit. That's a great temperature. So I don't know what you were working at if you were at 76 degrees. That's why everybody was shivering.

05:22                                     I don't think it was heated at all.

05:24                                     So there you go. Yeah. So you were struggling. So the typical aqua yoga class that you know that temperature can be a consideration in terms of the pacing. But how I like to format a class is we do like some big body moving to warm up. What is big body moving? That could be like walking forwards and then backwards and then taking it in strides and then to the side and let's start to integrate some arm movements with that. And I like asymmetrical movements because of what it does for neural networks and stuff. So you're maybe stepping with your right foot while you're moving your left arm in a different direction. So that's just, it gets us mindful, it gets us moving. Right.

                                                Also keeping in mind people who come to aquatics classes, and I think this is a little more true than some of the traditional yoga classes, people like that social element. So if you give people a few minutes to kind of get their chatting out it helps with that. And then we always come into mountain pose and talk about, well what is mountain pose? My students are mostly new to yoga. They might be new to aquatics. They're really beginners. You have to start, okay, well I'd like to say it's Yogi homebase, right? Cause we come into it and we come out of it. And so we talked about, well what is mountain pose?

                                                And then we warm up our spine. So we take our spine through the six ranges of motion, I twist in each direction and then a side stretch to each direction and incorporating some sort of gentle back arch and then the forward fold that would be that sixth range. We do so much of it in our lives and it is a little hard to incorporate into the pool. Nobody wants to get their head wet. We're doing versions right. So forward fold is not like what we would do in a land class, but there's an element in there so and so that would be kind of like the base that gets us into about 15 minutes of practice. And then from there it would be predominantly standing postures perhaps in flows, meaning like you know a sun salutations can be done in the water and then we would finish off with just all right kind of like relaxing transition pose that works with the theme of the day and then going into a floating meditation.

07:53                                     I like floating meditation.

07:54                                     Floating meditation, it's awesome. Tons of noodles. It's like, you know, it's not a bath party cause you don't have a pool floaty but you can give yourself, you know like six, eight noodles if you wanted that. It feels like it. So that's kind of like the structure of the class. Most aquatics classes are about 45 minutes because another feature of working in the water that we don't deal with on land is you've got the hydrostatic pressure. So that's that feeling when you get in the water and you feel almost like you're in a sock and everything's pressing in on you a little bit, it makes your kidneys more efficient. So that's why everybody has to go to the bathroom.

08:30                                     Is that why ?

08:32                                     Yes. Everyone always does. It's like, oh I thought it was just me. Perhaps like with the younger real fit audience who's used to being in the pool, they can take about an hour. But frankly that's why most aquatics classes are 45 minutes in. That's considered best practice for that. So it is a slightly shorter class. Then you know, you're a teacher and you're used to working in an hour and 20 minute format, it is considerably shorter. But as you addressed you have got the issues of keeping people warm and you've got this hydrostatic pressure, people you know, need to get out and use the bathroom as well as you don't realize that working in the pool is actually kind of dehydrating because of that hydrostatic pressure. And if you're working hard enough, I wouldn't say Aqua Yoga does this to us, but some of the other aquatics disciplines, you're actually sweating in the water. You just don't feel it. So if you're working in the water for an hour and 20 minutes, you're starting to get dehydrated. That's why we keep the classes a little shorter because that's kind of the structure. We'll probably talk about props that, depending on what props we're using, obviously impacts the postures and the pacing and things like that. But that's just gives you sort of the general backbone of an idea of how I would teach it.

09:50                                     Well let's go on to props since you mentioned them. Obviously noodles are important.

09:56                                     Noodles are important about the only land product. I guess there's two: blankets and bolsters don't work out real well. So anything that gets wet, right, but we have got the pool noodles. Amazing what you can do with pool noodles. And I actually use pool noodles in my land yoga classes too cause I enjoy it so much. It's in a different way, but they're great cheap props. They're only a buck at the dollar store and you can do  so much with them. So I love them compared to blankets and bolsters with the investment and weight of those as you know, as a yoga teacher.

                                                A feature that you can use with noodles that we don't have in land classes is something called buoyancy assist and buoyancy resist. So what happens is when we exert muscular effort in the pool, it is an equal effort in both directions because you've got the resistence of the water, right? The water, it's not as solid, but it's almost like if you thought about, well what if I was moving in Maple Syrup, right? You have resistance in every direction. If you think about bending your elbow and bringing your palm up towards your shoulder and then lowering it back down on land, we put say like a barbell in our hand in the gym. And we're exerting a lot of effort in that flexion to bring the object up, we have to exert a little bit of effort to bring it down, but not as much as in the water. When you put something in like a pool noodle, which is buoyant, wanting to fly up to the surface. So when you curl your hand up, you're having to exert effort to control it. So it's not just shoving up on your shoulder.

                                                And then when you bring that noodle back under the water, well again, it wants to fly to the surface. So now you're exerting effort to get it back below the water. So it's a very equal muscular effort that you get from that noodle, which is a kind of a unique thing. Also we use them to support us. So it'd be like buoyancy-supported and that's the example of the floating meditation where you just kind of use them as a neutral space on the surface of the water. So that's something noodles can do for us.

                                                Yoga belts, there are some other aqua yoga teachers I know who've really pioneered using yoga belts in the water. I prefer personally because I work with people with arthritis. I really like inner tubes. So you go to that in your local bike shop, shout out for your local small business and you get a regular bike inner tube and cut out the stem and now you've got this great durable free yoga prop. It is rubberized, right? So you get that action. We were talking about about this buoyancy as system resists that it doesn't involve your hands because you can wrap it around your wrist. For a lot of aquatics prop, that is a big issue for people who have arthritis in their hands. If you think about noodles and dumbbells and all these things we grabbed and then you move them through the water, it can be really hard on your wrists and fingers if you've got arthritis in your hands. So to eliminate that with the these bike inner tubes is I think really great. So we would use them the same way when you use a yoga belt.

                                                 So you know, in the Yoga studio we think about, well a belt, it's either basically like trying to bring the floor closer to us or us closer to the floor, right? Same way we would use an inner tube in the pool. If you're not in the pose and you would want to do a leg lift, you could use that inner tube to help you get your foot a little closer to the surface of the water and connect your lens there in that way. Iinner tubes are really fun.

                                                Kick boards. Most pools have kick boards because most, especially public pools, cater to swimmers and kick boards are a really nice, solid prompt there. They have a lot of surface area. They feel very secure. And so when you use them to support you in a standing posture, like you think about taking triangle pose in the water and if you think about what your hands are just on the surface of the water, you're going to be really interacting with all that movement. Maybe feel a little unstable. But if you put a kickboard under one hand, it almost like gives you this little platform to work against.

                                                So those can be a real nice props. Those are the three in addition to the aquatic barbells or dumbbells, whichever you want to call them, that people think of for aqua aerobics. I do incorporate those in my classes from a yoga perspective as well. Those are real traditional aquatics props, but those are the four main props I use most often.

14:41                                     Oh, that's interesting. I would assume the breathing would be very much the same in in the water. I mean, just being really aware of your breath and that kind of thing.

14:58                                     Great question. Yes. Same in the sense that you can teach the same perspectives of yes, mindfulness and being aware of your breath. But we already talked about the hydrostatic pressure. The ideal height to do aqua yoga at is about mid chest height. So if you're thinking about where your body is, it's at mid chest height, that's basically kind of bisecting your lungs. If anything you have a little bit more lung out of the water right? But your whole diaphragm is under the water, for example.

                                                And since we've got that hydrostatic pressure pushing in on us a little bit, it actually we have to exert more muscular effort to breathe. So it can be a very powerful Pranayama practice in that you're really building your breath capacity. Sometimes people who live with anxiety or breathing issues like COPD, they'll really struggle because of that pressure that you wouldn't have on land. So there's some slightly different considerations. It can impact you and that it helps you kind of build your breath and build a potentially stronger Pranayama practice because you really feel that inhalation and exhale interacting with the water.

16:25                                     I hadn't thought of that but that makes a lot of sense. You said that you had arthritis undiagnosed for 20 years and that one of the reasons that you're doing aqua yoga is because you believe that it's really good for people with arthritis. I can see that because it certainly wouldn't impact their joints like being on land might. Do you have a lot of people with arthritis that find this a really easy entrance into yoga?

17:03                                     Yes, definitely. So when we talked about that mid chest height for example, that we're working at, when you're at mid chest height, your offloading approximately 70% of your body weight. So if you live with any kind of arthritis below mid chest, your joints just got an automatic little opening for example. And helped restore your original range of motion that you had because you're offloading that weight. So I do work predominantly with seniors, so my most common clients have osteoarthritis and osteoarthritis is we've now learned, it's much more complicated, but we used to just describe it as, well, you've old and you've just worn out your joint, right? It's a wear and tear kind of arthritis. Obviously we, we know it's a little more complicated than that now, but most of the people who have arthritis that I work with have that. I personally have the autoimmune, I actually have several arthritic or immune diseases and a smaller slice of the people I work with have that. So the differences is kind of what Aqua Yoga can do for you, depending on which kind of arthritis that you have, compared to land yoga, is you do get that huge offload of weight.

                                                And what that can mean for example, is if you're in a lot of pain and you come to a yoga class, there's that whole element of getting on and off the ground. And if you're going to do mat yoga, and even if you can get on the ground and then the teacher leaves you there for 20 minutes and you're just like, oh my God, I'm sitting here and I'm not moving. Because that lubrication of the joints by that subtle movement all the time is how a lot of people will manage a chronic arthritic pain condition, right? So they're just kind of a little bit of moving all the time, which is frowned on in Yoga when you do your opening meditation and then you're starting postures and you're just sitting there, sitting there, sitting there, right?

                                                And then you might move into a whole lot of sun salutations. So now you're being asked to bear all this weight on your hands and your wrists. If you do not have arthritis there, perhaps especially we as women are faced with this even more, is you've got rotator cuff stuff going on up on your shoulder assembly, right? So even if your hands and your wrists are okay, you've got something going on in your shoulders. So by moving our practice into the pool, not only have we offloaded all that weight, we're not required to get on and off the floor, nor are we having to bear weight on our hands or take a lot of weight on our shoulders.

                                                It's not just about being in the water. It's also kind of the shift of format just automatically because of what the water requires so to speak. Since we're not doing the inversions and we're not getting on and off our hands and we're not sitting down, it's just like, well, all those problems just became not problems, right? You don't even have to say, I had a joint replacement and this knee is a real problem because there's no expectation you have to get on and off. So it's very empowering. Right.

                                                Because you have offloaded all that weight, you can get people who have a very active physical practice and can handle all those sun salutations and do half- moon and tree and dancers and those postures that become less accessible to us. You can continue to do them in the water in a way that you can't on land. So that is also really empowering and allows people who maybe because of their arthritis or many other issues have to give up aspects of their practice to continue to practice. And that's really wonderful. It is.

20:54                                     Is there a trade-off between the buoyancy of the water that takes away some part of your weight and the Maple Syrup effect of walking through the water and things pressing on you no matter which way you go. I'm just wondering if someone is going to be really tired after 45 minutes of doing that or whether it's kind of a trade-off and it's not a big problem.

21:26                                     Yeah, great question. And so what I find is that there's pros and cons to everything. I find that most people think it's easy as we talked about things like pressure and range of motion. It's like, wow, that was such a relief. I wasn't like struggling just to stand on one leg, right? So that becomes easier, right? But then because you're working in this new environment, you're using your body in different ways than you would on land. So you're perhaps using more muscles and in a different way. And working in the water is a very back body focused practice, which I find as another element that makes it really powerful.

                                                 As we sit in chairs, we drive our cars, we're on our devices and we really don't take care of our back extensor muscles, particularly much in our culture. And so then you get in the water and it really asks people to balance and engage with those. And so they're potentially using muscles in a new way. So what I often hear, wow, that was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. Because it took so much balance, but I could do so much stuff that I can't do on land. And then you talked to them the next day and they say, oh, I'm really more sore than I was expecting. You just don't really feel it until the next day. Yep. So there's exactly like you just described it as there's some trade-offs. Overall, it's not as cardio compared to a flow class. It doesn't have quite the same cardio element. So if that's a need of yours, you would potentially want to add in a different aquatics class or continue that element of your land class.

23:14                                     Well I think that's good to know. I taught seniors too andnot many of them could just stand for 45 minutes. so I just wondered if the water buoyancy was being helpful.

23:29                                     It does, it makes a huge difference. And, I will share, I've had multiple clients cause I teach chair yoga as well, and I've had multiple clients come to chair yoga with me as a teacher and then the aqua yoga with me as a teacher. We don't teach that differently depending on our medium. Right. I feel like it's a fair comparison. And they say the chair yoga class is harder than the aqua yoga class and they feel like they're exerting more in chair yoga in terms of the actual muscular effort, but they feel like the aqua yoga class, they get so much out of their balance and challenge from their balance. So to give you that sort of perspective as a student, and I've heard that from many people, so I think it's, I think it's a valid comparison for them to make.

24:16                                     You said that, you have rheumatoid arthritis or you have the audio immune arthritis. Are there a different things that you do for that type of arthritis as opposed to the osteoarthritis?

24:37                                     Great question. Yes, definitely. The main difference between say Osteo, that wearing out of joints arthritis, and one of the systemic arthritis conditions, which is what the auto immune forms are, is that the osteoarthritis is going to be isolated to certain joints. So it's very common to get it in your knee, your hip, saddle joint of your thumb. You get it where you have used yourself well, so to speak. I like to think of it that way. It's not like you wear yourself out. It's, you had a really good time with those, certainly for a long time. And it shows. There is, as I said, there's kind of more to it. We now know there's a slight genetic component and I have said, oh well it's just worn out one joint. But there is a lot of systemic inflammation that goes with osteoarthritis that we now know.

                                                The autoimmune forms of arthritis though will cause basically systemic inflammation in all your joints. So I also live with Lupus, which will do the same thing. I live with Sjogren's, which will do the same thing and Psoriatic arthritis, will do the same thing. If you're living with one of those autoimmune forms, you potentially hurt everywhere. Beauty of getting in the water is, it just kinda took the load off. Right.

                                                And so for an osteoarthritis person, you're just trying to manage their practice and the queuing that you would give them. So they're aware of the needs and range of motion of a particular joints, for example. Right? So, we'll take knee osteoarthritis because that is the most common form of arthritis and the most common place, right? So I mentioned we do a lot of standing on one leg. So if you've got osteoarthritis in your knee and you raise your leg up off the ground and you've got a bent knee, when you start to move that leg side to side in the water (this is an example of what we would do to keep people warm, right).

                                                 We're not just standing there with one leg in the air. It's like, okay, well now we're going to open that leg in and out. So if you're opening that leg in and out like window shutter and you've got osteoarthritis in your knee, you would not want that ankle below that eggbeatering around because now you've got a lot of lateral movement going on in that knee and you just don't really like lateral movement. And if she's got arthritis in it, they like it even less. Right? So that's an example of how you would manage a common osteoarthritis thing.

                                                For an RA person, you are really trying to help teach them some self-efficacy skills and really sort of pain management techniques in terms of, okay, well how are you feeling today? Because the nature of autoimmune diseases as they vary hugely day to day. If you're not feeling really good today, let's do a mellow practice, take care of yourself, be kind, maybe a longer floating meditation, drop some poses, do a shorter practice. Whatever it is to honor what's going on with you. And then on the days when you are feeling more capable and maybe you're not having a flare up, push yourself a little harder. It's a real mindset and learning how to work with yourself within your yoga practice that potentially an osteoarthritis person doesn't have to face.

28:04                                     That makes sense. I thought I would tell everyone this just because I think it's very interesting, but Christa was a farrier for 10 years.

28:17                                     I absolutely loved it. Everybody always asks did you get kicked, yes unfortunately, I got kicked many times.

28:28                                     Well, I can understand that. I wouldn't like somebody grabbing my foot.

28:35                                     I honestly think it makes me a better yoga teacher really. Because basically for 10 years I would watch horses walk and figure out what they needed to get them moving smoother and more ergonomically in their bodies. Now I go to yoga, I watch people walk, I watch people stand there and I give them active verbs to help them move better and be more comfortable in their walk.

                                                 It's really the same, the same things. It's just that I do it with words instead of sharp hot tools. People don't like to be hurt. But it was part of the process. It's very similar. I think it's interesting and I think I am a better yoga teacher because of it, because I have a very good understanding of ergonomics and chains of motion and weight-bearing. You know that I would say that it's not real common in the yoga cannon.

29:38                                     No, I think you may be a member of a very small group.

29:46                                     I am 100% confident. I am the only aqua yoga teacher in the world who used to be a farrier. I got that one. I am one of a million.

29:58                                     All right. Well, it's nice to be unique. At the end of the podcast I always ask if there's something that you would like to cover in more depth or something that we didn't cover at all that you think is important to the listeners to know about aqua yoga or your teaching.

30:23                                     I would just like to share that it's a real new modality. I would say that it's still very much within the tradition of yoga. So if you heard this and you're like, wow, I don't know, that sounds like goat yoga or beer yoga or something, I would just really encourage you to go try it. I'm assuming all your listeners are yoga devotee's, right? That's why you would listen to your podcast. So you have a strong yoga practice already. So just take it to the pool sometime and experiment with what you already know and see what you get out of it.

                                                 One of the things I think is most powerful in working in the water, and it has made me a much better teacher teaching on land. When we work on land, we've got that little mat and we're just obsessed with our little mat. And all we do is work in this sagittal plane, right? It's just front to back. When you get in the pool, you have 360 degrees, you can move in any direction. So what are you going to learn about your practice and your body and yourself if you move in every direction and you kind of liberate yourself to maybe take the traditional form of yoga, but maybe add in a diagonal or a curve, right? No yoga God will strike you dead. You going to learn about your practice and yourself if you try some of these new things. So that's what I would just really kind of leave everybody with is don't knock it until you try it.

31:48                                     That sounds good. I want to give Christa's contact details. Her email is [email protected] and her website is christafairbrother.com  Her Instagram is aqua content yogi and her Facebook is also aqua content yogi and Christa Fairbrother. So if you would like to explore a little bit what Christa's been doing and learn a bit more about it and I'm very tempted to go out and try a yoga class. Actually I would like to say though that I think having taught seniors, I think it's a really nice accessible way for them either to start yoga or as perhaps their bodies become more fragile or perhaps less physical maybe or they can't move as well as they did. I think it's a really great way to get them still into yoga because most of them, if they stay with you really love Yoga and they want to continue. I think that should be said that this sounds like a great accessible type of yoga for older people and for people that may have some other kinds of chronic pain.

33:17                                     Yes, it's very, very accessible. I have worked with people with a diverse range of challenges. And I have to say, the only thing that's been really hard is if somebody is hard of hearing to the point of being deaf because that's just becomes a safety concern in the water. Working in the water, we do have some safety concerns we don't have on land. The odds of you dying on your mat are pretty rare, right? You might have heart attacks per se. In the pool you have to remember that safety concern. I've worked with amputees. People using walkers are real regulars in my classes. It is very accessible and if you're blind, that's OK. But the hearing is the only trouble I've had with just safety.

                                                If you think about what aging is from an eastern medicine, Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic perspective is aging as kind of a drying process. We're kind of drying out. We're getting a little brittle and so to get us back in the water helps us really kind of move us up and return us to that environment that we were born out of. And so it, it does definitely keep us a limber and flexible.

34:42                                     Well thank you so much Christa. I really enjoyed this. Lots of great information and, like I said, if I can find one, I might go try an Aqua class.

34:53                                     Yes. Yeah, just try a nice warmer pool and take yourself in. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

Episode 127: Social Media: yes, no or sometimes? with Jamie Elmer

Major Points:

1. It is a given that we use social media to market our business. Is this a good decision for everyone? Does is feel right? Does it bring in clients, students, etc. ? Is it an effective use of your time?
2. Does cutting back on social media have a deleterious effect? Or does curating your posts give you produce more engagement? Jamie's found that a human connection through meeting people and having them on her email list feels more authentic to her.
3. If someone doesn't have an email list, social media can be a good place to start. But it must feel like a natural, authentic thing for someone to do. Is it fun? Is it something you dread? You have to find the path that feels good for you because you won't continue if you don't.

00:00                                     This is changing the face of yoga and this is episode 127 and this is part of the yoga teacher support theme. I'm speaking to Jamie Elmer and Jamie is an experienced RYT 500 teacher. She also provides continuing education through her streaming site. We'll get into that a little bit more. She has been teaching yoga and movement therapy full time, which is impressive for over 18 years. She specializes in alignment, applied anatomy and healing injuries. Jamie travels to teach teacher training, continuing education immersions, retreats, sees students online and has an online streaming video membership site for teachers or for students and as a continuing education resource for teachers. Jamie, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate, your sharing with us on this podcast. Is there anything else you want to add to that particular introduction?

01:18                                     No, thank you. Thanks for having me. I think that about covers it.

01:26                                     The reason I asked Jamie to be on the podcast, especially on this theme of yoga teacher support as you can tell, she's very busy. She's doing lots of different things, which probably requires marketing. Either to other yoga teacher trainings, people or to students or for her video streaming site. But she had posted about she was really looking at social media and how that was supposed to support her efforts. And so I know I've had several business coaches and they always tell you have to be on all these social media sites It's really, really important. But I think we should think about it. And since Jamie has thought about it, I asked her to come on and to talk a little bit about it. So, I assume Jamie and I could be wrong, that you have used social media to, in part, market your offerings and are now thinking about, I suppose the efficacy of it, if that's true. So I just like you to kind of set the stage for where you were and why you decided it needed more thought.

02:52                                     Well thanks. yes, for seeing that on social media and I did think it would be a good topic to bring up because, I too have worked with some coaches that have been great and I've been encouraged to use social media. I also feel like I've come up as a teacher as social media was coming into our life and it was just a given that of course we were going to  use social media and of course we needed to be on Facebook and of course we needed to be on Instagram. And it's just a given that that's what you do, without really even thinking about is this natural for me? Does it feel right? Is this really where I'm getting my clients? is this really where I'm putting my students and is it an effective use of my time?

                                                 I don't, I in no way hate social media. I enjoy it, but I've learned that I need to enjoy it and want to enjoy it in moderation, both just personally and professionally. Because I am the first to admit that I started going down this rabbit hole probably about a year and a half ago where I was really trying to build my business.

                                                As I was launching the streaming site and traveling more than ever and really were quote unquote working more than ever. But most of my work was all behind a computer screen at my desk, not teaching. I went down that rabbit hole of I kind of took the bait thinking I need to be on social media as much as possible. And I started out with posting four times a week and had a whole grid and the theme and the blah, blah, blah of all right, this is what I do at 8:00 AM on Tuesdays and this is when I do it, noon on Tuesdays and  I started spending so much time on this thing that really I don't enjoy spending that much time on. It's not natural for me.

                                                And a year and a half into it, I realized that the people that are still connecting with me, the people that still respond to my newsletter, the people that still come on a retreat, the people I'm seeing for privates, these people, most of them I'd say 99% of them are all people that I've worked with in person and are on my mailing list.

05:33                                     I'm not like the next YouTube, 20 something year old model on Instagram that people are just going to start to follow, that's just not me, never me. And I'm not the type of person that idolizes people like that either. And so for me trying to put on this presence, it was suggested to me that I actually get an acting coach to help me for my social media posts. And when I got, when I heard that on the other end of the phone, literally in my mind, something just clicked and I was like, I'm out. I'm done. It's not me. Just not me. And there's only so much time on the day, you know? It's a medium that I do enjoy.

06:41                                     I think it's useful to remind people, Hey, I'm still here, out there doing this if you're interested. And I've cut back to about once a week that I post on Instagram and Facebook and that feels good. I like sharing an event. I like sharing some helpful tips. and I think people like it for me at least, they like hearing from me in moderation. instead of, Oh Jamie is going to like post 5 or 8 times today. I'll catch her next time. You know? And it just, it was so unnatural. I can't even describe it, let alone just a total energy and time suck from actually what's most important in my life, which is not to become an Instagram star. Like that's not even a possibility anyway. So why try,

07:41                                     You say that you're really getting your clients and your students from your mailing list and, and how do you build that mailing list if you don't use social media?

07:52                                     Well, I would say that the majority of people that are on my mailing list are people that I have worked with in person. And I think that people connect in different ways. I think that we gravitate towards different people in different ways. I'm not someone, even though I have a streaming site, as I mentioned, I'm not someone that people are going to see on screen or see in a photo shoot and be like, wow, I want to be her. I mean, I connect more with people in person.

                                                 I mean I think the reality is that most of us do, I mean we see someone like in a movie or in a photo shoot and it's different. And so I've built my mailing list through working with people in person and then once in a while I'll put out a post on social media about, if you want to be part of my mailing list, click here. And a few people will sign on. It usually is that human connection that's been made and not a stranger browsing the internet or browsing social media and connecting with me that way. That happens once in a while, but not very often.

09:13                                     Okay, you've actually done some analysis of where your new clients, students, opportunities are coming from and social media is not contributing a whole lot to that. Is that a fair statement?

09:33                                     Yeah, and I would say the people that stay in touch with me via social media, the people that comment, the people that like, the people that repost a post of mine, usually those people also are people that I've worked with at some point in the last 20 years in person. So the social media crowd, that interaction is still most of the people that are on my mail, my email list.

10:04                                     Okay.

10:06                                     And, and I'd say the same goes with YouTube. I had a YouTube channel and really worked that for awhile and I have paused it right now basically. because I also find that people that are going to get content from YouTube, they're going to  stay YouTube users, they're going to stay the users that want something for free. And it doesn't actually drive people to anything that, requires more of a financial commitment.

10:36                                     No, that's, that's a good thing. Good thing to know because, I agree with you, it can be a real time suck that you just spend so much time getting posts ready and stuff. I just put out one post a week on whatever my newest podcast is and that takes time. You have 20 years of experience behind you. Obviously you've made lots and lots of contacts over your teaching and video streaming and your students and your clients. But if someone is brand new and really doesn't have a lot of those contacts and doesn't have a mail list, do you think that there's some value there in social media?

11:30                                     Yeah, I definitely think so. And I really think that it has to do with what feels right for you. Some people it's fun, it's natural, they enjoy it. And I'm not saying I don't enjoy social media and even creating posts for quote unquote work posts. But I think for other people it's actually even more fun. And if that feels like the thing that's natural to you to connect with people and get the word out, then you should go with that. I mean I worked with a couple people a few months ago in Germany and there were a couple of women teachers in the training - lovely teachers, we connected, they wanted to stay in touch, but they were like, you know what? I don't do email. I just am on social media. That's how I connect. I didn't want to be on any mailing list or anything.

12:32                                     I'm like, okay, that's your thing. And I really think that if you don't have a mailing list, social media can be great as long as it really in your gut feels like it's a good fit for you in a way to communicate with other people. I don't necessarily even think that that's an age thing. I think it's just a personality thing. And, I would much rather write out an email newsletter and write someone back or response through old fashioned email, then have direct messages in my Instagram account and messages and Facebook that I know are hanging out there that I haven't responded to. And to me it just gets to feel really messy and it starts to scramble my brain, but for other people, again, just if that feels like a natural, easy means of communication, then it's probably going to work for them more. It doesn't feel natural and it feels forced. It's probably not in the end going to work.

13:43                                     Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I do think though that your take on analyzing where your, clients and students came from is important because just throwing it out there is, and even if it does feel good, that's great. But if you're actually expecting to get something back out of it, I think it's important to kind of track that and say, yeah, it is working or it isn't. And you can try some new things if it's not working. But just to think about, is this really worth my time? Because a business takes up a lot of time and you really have to put your energies and resources into whatever you're trying to achieve. I know everybody's different.

14:42                                     I mean I think there's two important things. Also, it's got a feel. It can't feel like a burden. If you're going to keep up writing a newsletter. If you're going to keep up doing a once a week post on social media or 10 posts a day, it's got to be something that you can actually sustain both timewise, energy and that you look forward to. Don't put off and don't procrastinate. And I think for me too, most of the people that I connect with and that are my students and clients are not 20 and 30 something year olds. They're 40 and up, which I think is also, you got to look at that demographic and most of them are not on social media or so as social media savvy as someone in their teens or twenties. So that's a big reality also.

15:40                                     That's true. So what's your market in and who are you trying to attract? Because that's going to make a difference. Although I have heard that with Facebook and I don't know if it's true, the others, I think maybe they've all migrated to something else. But it's really over forties becoming the majority on Facebook and that the young ones are leaving. I don't know quite where they're going, but that's okay. Because I don't mind my group is not young either. If you were to give some advice to just starting now, how, and given that you've said, Hey, it has to feel good, it has to feel right for you. What do you think is been the best return on investment to use one of those businessy terms for you and might be for someone else?

16:42                                     In terms of advertising?

16:44                                     Yeah. Yeah.

16:48                                     I mean for me it's hands down a mailing list for sure. No doubt. And I, thankfully, I don't even remember who it was, but it was probably 16 years ago where I barely used email and yeah, it was longer ago than that I guess, but maybe about 16 years ago that someone suggested to me to start a mailing list. And I thought like, why do that? I teach at the studio. I wasn't thinking five or 10 20 years down the road.

                                                 And thank God somebody suggested that to me because it's really interesting and it's a bit of a Murphy's law type of thing. In my experience whether it's on social media or mailing list, there's the people that you meet that are like, I'm coming to your next retreat and I'm signing up for the streaming site and I want privates with you and I'll be in touch and you never see that person again. And then there's the people that were always in the back of your class that were on the mailing list 15 years ago, that you hear something like once every five years and they're still on your mailing list. And they comment on, having stayed watching for however many years and you just never know, who those people are really going to be and who's going to just all of a sudden show up at a retreat and be like, Oh my gosh, you've been on my mailing list for 15 years. I never hear from you. And here you are.

                                                 And the people in my experience, the people that you know talk about like, Oh, we're coming into this and I'm going to do this. you never hear from him again. And it's, there's something about people actually in person writing down, with pen and paper, their email that is become, I think more intimate than someone is scrolling through their phone and on their screen just being able to like this and that and comment. But it's not, it's not as much as an investment in some ways. So anyway, point being whoever it was at first told me to start gathering emails, I think them. And that has been hands down the best thing for me in terms of staying in touch with people. And marketing by far. and I actually just talked to the couple of new teachers that, one guy got 22 people on his mailing list and he's like, should I start a newsletter? I'm like, well, sure, if that is, he enjoyed the writing, he enjoys the actual process of it. you get two people on your mailing list, 22 people, and if you feel drawn towards that and you actually enjoy connecting with people through writing and typing, then go for it. But even if you don't enjoy the email thing, I'd say there's no harm in building an email list. Even if you don't use it five years from now, you could have a hundred, 200 people on it and you just never know when you might need that or that it might really help you.

20:03                                     I think that's, that's good advice. I have, an email list and a newsletter that goes out and I'm always amazed that people stay on the list. I agree with you. I think it is more intimate if they've stayed on that list years and years and years, whether they've ever commented or gave you any feedback at all. but they know it's going to come out once a month or every six weeks or whatever your particular schedule might be. I think it is much more, there's just not as much noise in that. It's very much the person that wrote it.

20:54                                     And it's interesting. I recently did send out an email. My emails are different. I've really tried to stick with a format and follow a plan and it just doesn't really work for me. It has to feel more real and inspired following a format. And so sometimes my newsletter is very short. This is what's coming up due to the three things going on this summer. Hope to see you at one of them, period. Done. and then sometimes like this two newsletters ago, I was just, I felt inspired to sit down and write a newsletter. I told people that I had family issues going on. I told people I'm a little bit more just more personal things while protecting my family's privacy. I don't gush too much or anything like that. I had a couple of people that are very close to me respond and say, I think you made a mistake and I think you put yourself in a corner. And that was a little much. I had two people respond like that.

                                                And I also looking back through Mail Chimp, cause they can track how many people respond and open and read it and all. I had more response to that newsletter than I've had in any newsletter in literally over a decade because it was real this is what's going on, this is what I want for you. Hope to see you, it's more than that. But it was the most real and open newsletter I had written in a very long time.

                                                And I got the most support back from it and it was a really good reminder and lesson that, yes, I'm running a business but, essentially I am selling myself. So if I just keep it all very businesslike, that's not, that's not what I do in the moment. That's not actually what's going on while we're teaching and connecting with people. And it's one thing if I were writing the newsletter for a studio facility, but I'm writing it just as me and it was a good reminder that it's, that it's good and actually helpful to be open in our newsletters and social media, I think, to a degree.

23:31                                     I agree. I think your point that basically you're selling yourself and people have to feel that they know you. I've been in business things where, people say, Oh, I'm supposed to be vulnerable. And I am supposed to tell you that yes, I am a business coach, but that doesn't mean I'm perfect. And it always embarrassed me quite frankly. But over the years I've thought - that's right - to know that they have problems too and that they haven't solved everything. It can be a bit daunting if you don't have a really big background in business; I came from a different world entirely. So it's been quite an experiment and that's why I think I was so fascinated by what you were saying that, we get all this advice but it really does come down to what do you feel like, what makes you think it's authentic when you're talking to people? Is it through a post? Okay, cool. That's fine. Or is it an email or whatever or in person, it's that connection.

24:45                                     I think that that is the part of, I mean obviously when it comes to teaching, I've really gravitated in my teaching towards things that are technical and, and a little more scientific. Although a lot of my background is in dance and improvisation and, and the arts. And I think that that really comes out in the, in how we feel comfortable marketing ourselves.

                                                 Because I know for me, even though I may be promoting a technical video on how to access your transverse abdominals, I cannot, or maybe I'm just not willing to follow a system of, okay, Jamie, at eight o'clock on Monday morning, you're doing educational posts and at 6:00 PM on Mondays you do an intimate fun posts. And at Tuesdays at 9:00 AM you do an advertorial posts. And I'm, I'd like that to me, I can't do it. It's a structure, which is, I like structure and it's good for us, but it doesn't feel authentic in the moment. And I think again, for, at least for me, social media has to feel just kind of like fly by the seat of my pants in the moment. And those again are the posts that get the most interaction and feedback and that are things that I personally, I can't, I can't plan and still feel inspired to do.

26:23                                     I agree. I've seen that formula, you have to have a funny one, an informative one.. .  And I did it for a while, but it just kind of went by the wayside. So I'm pretty sure it wasn't anything I was really excited about.

26:45                                     That's the kind of the proof, I think that this is not working for me.

26:50                                     I'll do that tomorrow. Yeah, I know it's not on the schedule but I'll do it tomorrow. What I was shocked at, and I realized this is probably just my inability to see clearly, but what the podcast was doing was providing connections and I hadn't ever thought of it as being that kind of media. I just thought of it as being informative and trying to get out the word that there's a lot more to yoga than maybe you see in an ad.

                                                 And what I got back was people saying, I'm in an isolated area and it's so nice to hear other yoga teachers talking. And I said, wait, Whoa, wait, wait, wait. This is wholly different than what I thought it was going to be. And, it's just been kind of an interesting process, that it's really the connection that people appreciate as well as what everyone does. I think that goes on in social media. It has to be the connection that you're looking for. And if it's not there or it's not authentic, then I think it's probably important to think about whether that's really an important thing to be doing.

28:16                                     Right. And I think people feel it. I mean, I think we even know it when we're posting or, like trying to get a picture for a certain post or we're writing a post and it just isn't coming out right. I think we know when it feels forced. And I think you're right that social media is all about connection. Hopefully. whether it is, well, it has a different theme or not from post to post or person to person or whatever your business is. It is about connection and, and people feeling a part of an online community. we feel community in so many different ways.

                                                It's like people, really so often why people go to a yoga class, it's more about the community than anything else. People go to church, that's why when we're looking at Instagram or Facebook, from our phone and we're home or somewhere alone, it makes us feel like we are a part of. A few months ago we had, we, meaning my husband and I, we had just a series of events that were really disruptive. And I along with that I was spending all this time too much time on work, spending too much time on social media and I committed to taking a week off of social media.

                                                And that's when I knew it was really a problem for me was when I said to take a week off. It seems like a long time. And the first couple of days I felt like I was missing out. I felt lonely. I felt like the world was moving on without me. It made me agitated. it gave me anxiety. Like, if I don't log in and like, or comment on somebody's comment or whatever it is, people are going to forget about me. The first few days were really hard as if I felt I felt lost from my life out there.

                                                 And that was a really good lesson to observe. Like wow, this is a problem. And that's when the week off it turned into, I don't know how like five weeks. Cause once I kicked the habit, I put all of my social media apps on my iPhone, I put them on the last page. They're not just like on the homepage of the phone. And then I made designated times like, all right, I'm going to do this at this time and this at this time. And that's it. I had all sound and visual notifications turned off on my phone for everything. Texts, everything including social media. And there's just designated times now that I check it. But actually once I took the break from it, it was hard to get back into it. I was like, Ugh. This is a drag and this is just so silly - like what are we doing? and how much time was I spending doing all of this?

31:51                                     It's a little, if you actually sat down and thought, kept a log of how much time you were on, I think it might be a bit shocking for everyone. Not you personally, but all of us, you know?

32:06                                     Yes. I think you're right. I mean even those of us that now spend some time once or twice a week, I think it would still be shocking if we really added up the time, where you check those comments or do a couple of likes while you're in the bathroom. If you added up all those moments, it can be a shocking amount of time. And is it how I want to spend my life and if you're doing it for work, is it really helping?

32:45                                     Yes. Is it, and it's not easy to measure, but at least you should have some idea, because it does take up a lot of time. I agree. okay. So, Jamie, I will give you the opportunity if you would like to either talk about something that we haven't talked about at all that you think is important and, or you'd like to go into depth into a topic that we, we discussed a little. So I'll give you that opportunity to kind of say whatever you'd like to the listeners.

33:15                                     Hmm. Wow, okay. Let's open that. Rein it in. Well, I guess not that I have, decades and decades of experience in this, but I guess what I feel like is that for me now that I do think is important to pass on is it is good to ask for help in terms of business coaches and asking people that are doing what you want to do, asking them, how did you do it?

                                                Did you build an email list? Do you use Facebook or do you use Instagram or do you use LinkedIn? Or, and really looking at, not just taking advice from people that say they're good at giving advice, but really people whose life reflects something that do you want to be like, and especially when it comes I think to teaching yoga. I've just recently changed my business name to movement therapy company and taken the name yoga out of it. It's very intimate what we do and as time goes on, we learn more about how we best connect with people.

                                                To observe what works best for you, what your real nature is and not that we shouldn't challenge ourselves and not that, if we are yoga teachers, it's not that we're going to be able to do the business side. Great. And vice versa. We can't wear every hat and be a Jack of all trades and great at all of those things. But if you're an independent teacher or if you teach at studios or you see privates or you're a yoga therapist, I would say more than ever with so many resources we have on line, in social media, through newsletters, really notice like what do you sit down and feel excited to do when it comes to your business and go that route and take advice from other people and try it on.

                                                Don't just say like, Oh, that's just not me. I'm not going to do that. Try it. You may surprise yourself and there's some things like, our monthly accounting or whatever it is that we just have to do because that being a grownup and that's being an adult and we have to do it regardless. But when it comes to how you connect with people in your work, in our work, don't necessarily try to do it like somebody else just because they're a coach or they're a business professional. Because I think people can feel when it feels forced, they can feel when you're holding back or it's contrived, Whether it's through writing or whether it's through a video or whether it's through, a post on Instagram. And I've, in my streaming site, I've had the site less than two years and it's been one of the greatest and hardest things I've ever done personally. Because I'm a trained modern dancer so I'm used to being on stage playing a role. My teaching is, was hard for me for many years at first because I had to be myself and that's super vulnerable and scary and my God been seeing myself on film. It was a massive leap for me in the last couple of years. And what's interesting is I try to sometimes get behind the camera or get in front of the camera and get all professional and have my little script and it just, it looks cheesy. It's hokey cause I'm not just being natural. And the days that I put on the camera and I do a practice of how to strengthen your feet and ankles wearing jeans and I got my dog in the background. The video quality is good, it's great content, but I'm being myself and it all works out, a thousand times better.

                                                How we market, how we run our business and how we teach all go hand in hand where we need to continue to teach. Just like you have to step into the front of the room and be yourself or you go to somebody's house and work with them one on one. You have to be to yourself. Try to find a ways of marketing and connecting with the community online in person through writing that still feels like you so that you don't feel like you're trying to have different personalities. It's all one big yoga process including how we market and really pay attention to that because if it feels forced, you're not going to be able to sustain it.

38:34                                     Yes. I think that's a very good point. If it doesn't feel right for you, you just can't force yourself to do it for any length of time. Well thank you so much Jamie. I want to give your contact details so that people will know how to contact you. Her email is [email protected] and the website is the same. Okay. Facebook is movement therapy company as is Instagram. So I will have all those in the show notes. But thank you so much Jamie. I think you really put the marketing in a context that probably feels better for all of us instead of all these things that we're supposed to do, but really looking at what is authentic for me. Because that's the only way I can continue to do this kind of stuff.  So thank you so much. I appreciate you coming on. It's been really interesting.

39:47                                     Thank you so much Stephanie. I really appreciate it. Fun, fun stuff to discuss and ever changing. And for those of you up there that have listened to this, thank you for tuning in. I really appreciate it.

Contact Details:

Email: [email protected]

www.movementtherapyco.com

FB and Insta: movement therapy company

Episode 126 of Changing the Face of Yoga: Working in the Medical System   with Lisa Holland.

Major Points:                     1) A lot of therapy is treating them, doing things passively to them or setting things up. A lot of coaching is holding up a mirror. And asking them to see the truth in the matter and then creating a safe environment for them to do that to self-reflect and to get their own answers.

                                                2) What is helpful for me in terms of a business standpoint is now I have more to share at different places to move them through an experience, the whole picture experience.

                                                This is Changing the Face of Yoga. And this is episode 126 and my guest today is Lisa Holland. This is part of the theme of support for Yoga Teachers and Yoga therapists. Lisa is very experienced having worked within the medical field as a physical therapist and she has some ideas about working in that field. It's just how you position yourself in this area. So welcome. Lisa. I'm really excited about this particular interview because I think it's quite unique. Could you just give us a short bio that will introduce you to the listener?

                                                Sure. Thank you Stephanie so much for having this theme. I think it's important that we start thinking about wanting to have a sustainable business. If you want to help people, you got to make sure you stay in business. I'm a doctor of physical therapy. I've been practicing physical therapy. I don't do as much clinically now because I really moved into some mentorship and some of these business conversations for my peers that are in medicine and Rehab Medicine and also for Yoga physios. Yogis that are kind of the bridge builders. I tend to work with people who kind of walk both lines, walk that fine line with one foot on each side because that's where I came from.

                                                I've been a physio Yogi. I really had my first class really dipping my feet into it about 2000-2001. And then I created my company Belly Guru LLC in 2005. And I did that as a model. It was one of the first medpreneur type of health entrepreneur, boutiquy, clinical/ wellness center, well positioned, direct to market. I did not take any insurances. I did not step into that. I was leaving that for very important reasons. Number one, they weren't accepting of yoga back then. That was 2005. And I really had seen that as a very helpful therapeutic modality and it aligned with what I had done in orthopedics and sports medicine prior to my move to women's health, which was, in that realm, you were really working on mind body things. You knew that they needed to keep their head in the game and you saw the detriments of that in their physio, no matter how physically able they were put together, fixed up, patched up, if their head was out of the game, if they were feeling injured mentally, you saw that performance.

                                                 And then I went over into main stream, rehabilitation medicine and that was like, oh, forget about it. It was every body part for themselves and every person's discipline for themselves. And it did not overlap. So my main migration of over into yoga as my main modality for restoration started out physical in as much as I think every physical therapist that you know goes into that much more than let's say the psychologists that go into that, they go a lot more mind approach.

                                                But my approach was always very holistic, was always mind and body and it really gave me a vehicle. And so I evolved into that. I naturally became a mentor for other people doing that. They were asking me questions, so I decided, hey, if they're going to ask me some questions and I'm not going to be seeing people and I'm talking on all these Facebook pages and giving advice, I need to start getting supported for that. Because I actually really liked it and I knew a lot of stuff and I could save them years. I mean, pretty much right now I've a five day accelerator that took me 16 years to learn. You could do it in five days.

                                                 So I'm trying my best to broaden the physical therapist minds. But they have a lot of legalities and things and then there's a lot of fear in that mentality. I think the yoga teachers and yoga therapists could really learn from their mistakes. And one of the big things I see right now in having been one of these bridge builders in the international association of Yoga therapists trying to bring a conversation for that line of health providers that don't necessarily want to hang up their clinical to become, a yoga therapist or a full time yoga therapist or a yoga teacher. They actually want to combine it.

                                                But what I saw is that we're kind of walking down the line here in yoga therapy, number one, calling ourselves yoga therapists when we can actually can really fit into the market, positioning ourselves in a little different way. And so I've been out there having that conversation. I am actually even more than a health coach as what I was trying to bring in when I went into health coaching, I really saw that was actually still a very clinical conversation and more of what I do is what I was taught in Yoga. Very traditional Raja, Hatha - the holy science of yoga is I help people change their lives.

                                                I'm a life coach. I do that in various ways, it leans towards more rehabilitation versus personal development depending on the person. But when you're dealing with chronic pain and you're dealing with women's health, which are two areas where I tend to work in nowadays or since I moved into women's health in general, those two conversations, long-term, hormonal imbalance, stress induced things. That realm that yoga is in right now to be a very big help in their community is actually needing to make sure they have behavioral change and not just doing these modalities. It actually is about behavioral change.

                                                So I'm having that conversation and I assume that's what, some of the conversation we had from in the last podcast that you so nicely had me on. so that's really where I'm at. My mind-body brand academy is helping people such as yourself and anyone else to literally have a personal brand that they can transport as they evolve into their professional way they want to evolve. And then like I said, I'm actually starting to certify people in these abilities to read other people with some psycho-social assessments. We all start talking about the bio-psycho-social and how yoga is so great on the bio-psycho-social. But you cannot come into mainstream and start talking chakras. You're not going to be able to talk to a physician. You can't go into health care and yoga therapy wants to so much be in healthcare, they have some schools that are putting them in white coats and in hospitals.

                                                But the problem is that you can't go into that. Our psychosocial and yoga-Ayurvedic method and whatnot is such that it is something that they don't have in the Western model. They don't necessarily have that conversation. So we need to enter in their conversation. And that's behavioral change and that's life coaching and health coaching to some extent, well being and all of that conversation. But it's not necessarily we're all, health coaching right now is about learning. You have to become a ninja about the gut microbiome. We're not going to have a bunch of, Yogis doing that. You can.

                                                But I think really what's natural within the practice itself is that aspect of on helping people see themselves of today as they truly are. Not focus so much like therapy does in the past and focusing on the problem and how you got hurt and what's going to change from yesterday and going back to that trauma over and over and over to work it out. We need to focus on the today and let them see the person of tomorrow. Because a lot of times we know when they come to the mat they don't see that yet. It's too big of a gap. And that bridge building right there honestly is a lot more that I do of life coaching. Then just health and wellness. So a lot of yoga off the mat and I think we can position ourselves there.

                                                Let's just talk real basics. You've kind of evolved since the last time we talked, because you were talking about health coaching, but now you kind of evolved into more life coaching. So what would you say are the major differences between being in a clinical position, whether it's physiotherapy or it's yoga therapy or whatever therapeutic versus a life coach?

                                                Okay. Well I think probably what you heard is I feel I am a health coach. I just feel like they're not really two different things. It's just my definition of health and wellbeing involves your life and you really can't split it up just like you can't split up the mind and the body. You are only going to get a piece.

                                                And you can't get behavioral change unless you change what's going on with someone's perception of themselves in their life. Because you can't get them eating organic and Vegan, if at home that's going to be a really big problem no matter how much they believe you. So the real differences I see between health and life coaching is again the clinical concentration while health coaching will bring in behavioral change. You are through the process because of their desire to work in a very allopathic model. You will see somewhat of a diagnostic meeting, some sort of a procedure for certain diagnostics, lots of testing, a lot of focus on the gut microbiome and digestion and assimilation there. They do talk about stress but a lot of stuff will end up working in diet and so it looks a lot like, Ayurveda consultants. I think we have that already, right? We have Aryuveda consultants, we have Ayurvedic physicians, we have Aryuvedic practitioners.

                                                Those aren't necessarily always yoga therapists or therapists in general are life coaches. Taking somebody and telling them what you do for a certain pathology is very different than actually walking them through change. And so the life coaching side and the conversation is how do I actually deal with change? That's not necessarily what do I do to my body or my diet or my sleeping? How do I actually deal with change?

                                                I would assume though that any clinical intervention assumes that you're going to change. You're going to do some more stuff or you're going to do less stuff or you're going to do different stuff, but you're going to change. So is it just that the clinical is very focused on a specific thing whereas the coaching is more holistic?

                                                Clinical work or therapy work is focused on fixing something - a healing per se. Coaching is focusing on process. And the real difference is that in a therapy, both of them will be healing. Okay. Both of them will be change and yes, I agree. It's assumed, but that doesn't mean you can do it because we all know with the science right now, we sometimes have literal changes in our biochemistry and our brain chemistry that have been caused by repetitive traumas or we have injuries and processes that are not working anymore. In that microbiome where we really literally need to change the biochemistry again.

                                                So as much as we might want to, sometimes we need to be coached through that. In a coaching relationship, it's who's in charge versus a therapy relationship. Therapy is about me being the expert and me taking all of that evidence based medicine and me knowing a protocol and me figuring out what you need and then pulling down that protocol and sort of adapting it to you. And that is me in charge of the game really. Even if I say client-centered, it's not like I'm sitting there and I'm like, okay, so we can do and some people do and they try to expand it. They try to have more of a client centered approach and they say, well there's this test and this test, which one do you want to do?

                                                In a coaching relationship, you really are not one in charge. You're there to be a witness and a guide to their process. You say you are the healer. I am not the healer. You are the healer. I just know stuff to maybe make that process a little easier to digest and I might be able to give you some resources, but I'm not even necessarily being the educator. A lot of therapy is educating people. A lot of therapy is treating them, doing things passively to them or setting things up. A lot of coaching is holding up a mirror. And asking them to see the truth in the matter and then creating a safe environment for them to do that to self-reflect and to get their own answers. That's the biggest change between therapy and coaching.

                                                What are the benefits of therapy and then what are the benefits of coaching to the client?

                                                Great question. Thank you, Stephanie. the benefits of therapy are that the best thing would be if you had skills in both and could sort of walk between it because there's always this Pandora's box if you're being really creative, right, and being very effective. And there are times when it becomes a need for a therapeutic alliance and there are times when it needs to maybe be moved over to a more autonomous coaching alliance. The benefits of therapy are that there are things like I can't do for myself. There are things I don't know. I can be a little bit more passive. I could give over a little bit of needing to take the lead when I'm very stressed on something to someone I trust, like and know. The coaching is actually much harder. Coaching is something which is why there's not a lot of people that can sell it well because you need to have a person at a level of readiness for change that they may not be at. Whereas therapy, I can literally have you there passively knocked out and I could probably range your leg or I could have you literally on your death bed and help you in some way, feel less pain or strain or stress and it take you through my process and that might be very helpful for you. But if I'm working towards being autonomous, I'm truly sitting there saying, why can't this person have compliance? Why don't they have self efficacy? It's very hard in a therapeutic alliance to say, here, I'm the expert, I know this, do this. And then sit there and say, why isn't this person independently making their own decisions to heal their own life? It's a different mindset. Whereas the benefit of coaching is that that's the relationship right off the bat. The person's coming in understanding this is going to be more of their work than my work.

                                                So let's take it the other way. What are the benefits of both coaching and the therapy for the therapist? Why would they change from being a therapist to coach?

                                                They would change when they see the limitations of therapy. Therapy can only take the person so far, or at least that's my belief in terms of really truly taking self-ownership of their life and feeling transformed through the process. I do not believe that therapy alone transforms people. I think a conjunct care plan that involves some sort of coaching before the person leaves is really where the transformation is going to occur. I believe a band-aid is given in therapy. I believe a crisis is overcome in therapy and I believe that if the person has enough self-efficacy already to take that ball and run with it, they will end up coaching themselves through a transformation through that process. Such as, let's say somebody is healed from cancer, things like that. That's usually a life changing event that forces them to see their life in a different way, to see a different perspective on things that they were doing every day. Not everybody's sitting in that life threatening situation or feels they are in that life threatening situations. So I think that the people who want to give people transformational experiences will feel that they hit a glass ceiling if they only stay with therapy skills.

                                                So let's look at it from the business point of view We are all in business some form or another if we're therapists or yoga teachers. I think you said something about earlier that really the therapeutic mode is quite crowded and that making your mark in that can be difficult. Is making this transformation to coaching or adding coaching to your skillset; is that helping you in a business way also?

                                                Well, yes, of course. Because everybody is selling something. Even if you're giving a free class, you're selling, you want people to come. That's the first thing. You have to understand that spirituality and altruistic and everything like that - you're still selling something if you want people to partake in something that you want to share.

                                                What is helpful for me in terms of a business standpoint is now I have more to share at different places to move them through an experience, the whole picture experience. The whole transformation. What we are offering people or what at least what I am. I don't sell yoga sessions. I don't sell physical therapy sessions. I don't sell dry needling or massages or any of these yoga classes. What I sell people is outcomes and I honestly feel I have more to sell. I have a better product, I have a higher value thing in the market when I can offer the person who wants a transformation, a transformational experience. If someone just wants a therapeutic experience, in my case, I can give them that too. I can match. I can deliver what they're expecting.

                                                 I can have a conversation. One of the real things about coaching skills is that basically what they are is communication skills. You are getting very ninja styled level ability in communication. And so of course, 99% of business is relationships and you're going to have a much better relationship with people that you can communicate with. And it's not just that you're telling them what you do, it's that you're talking to them with who they are so you understand who they are.

                                                 I mean, my certification is teaching, my work that I do on psychometrics is teaching, literal objectives on people's behavioral styles and their main core motivators, their highest motivators. What's behind, what's under the iceberg of complaints that you see that's either holding them back from healing themselves or once they've healed their booboos keeps them actually doing the whole full work to not end up in that position again. That's very valuable in a society that is literally killing themselves.

                                                That's a strong statement.

                                                They are. That's the truth. Things that are killing us now are not opportunistic infections and all these complaints about vaccinations and all of this. That's not what killing human beings. If you look at the top three killers, it's what we're putting in our mouth. It's coming out of our mouth and our thinking patterns. It's stress. That is self-imposed by our perceptions. That needs a transformation of self-perception, not just, eat this and exercise this many minutes and move this way. But Yoga, and I'm not a yoga therapist, but I'm sure, because I've talked to a lot of them. I mean they're talking about the koshas and, and going deep within, beyond the physical, into the mental, emotional, spiritual, et cetera.

                                                Why is that not transformational?

                                                That is transformational, but not everybody wants to be on a yoga mat. And I'm just saying that from a business standpoint. Not everybody's going to buy yoga, but that doesn't mean that if you're a yoga therapist, you need to not see them. You just have to have it in a different package of what you're going to do and work with them and coaching's an outlet for that.

                                                I see.

                                                For example, I make money on the Internet. I could be working with somebody over in Germany and I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina, in America. I can't do that in a traditional maybe therapy way. Although there is telemedicine, but again, I'm not always selling: you have to feel broken to work with me. I actually have a majority of my conversation is I'm going to work with you so that you don't break.

                                                Something that I would like to get into because I have talked to a lot of yoga therapists and there seems to be a trend that they want to be in the medical realm shall we say. They want to work with doctors. They want to work in clinics, they want to work in hospitals. Not everyone by any means of course, but they are trying to make a statement that they are an excellent partner to these other more traditional medical services. I've got the impression that maybe you weren't thinking that's a great idea or that you have some opinion on it.

                                                Well we have to understand I'm of the mindset again as a business woman that's been doing this for 15 years or so. I wasn't able to build the business I wanted in terms of my vision being under the thumb of a corporation, which is what most hospitals are right now. There's certain rules and there's certain procedures and I think a lot of that catalyst of wanting to do that as number one, everybody wants to be respected and it's very prestigious and respectful, putting on that white coat and working with doctors and nurses and therapists and things like that.

                                                My concern is that they're looking at it as the silver lining of self-validation. What they don't realize is that right now hospital centers make money off of getting staff who can do certain things for less money. And they're also into, and as much as we want to help and we can. I 100% agree that we are great as yoga therapists with that yoga therapy hat on. It's a great complement to physical therapy.

                                                 That's why I started to combine it. It's a great complement for someone who's having major digestive problems. They really need to Vagal downtrain and you have this way. Somebody sitting in a bed disabled to work on breath and self-perception and that be very transformational for them. We have research taking them out of depression and this and that without all the consequences of pharmacology induced support. So that's not what I'm saying.

                                                What I'm saying is I'm not so sure we're in a position because of the difficulty historically I've seen in caregivers. In any profession that has a predominance of women in any altruistic type of really heart-led, mission-driven type of people, they tend to be taken advantage of. And there are people taking advantage of them right now who are billing under their codes, basically bringing them into their centers so that they can get more money, but they don't have to pay a physical therapist. So they'll pay a yoga therapist. It's not that they necessarily believe it, just that they honestly don't respect either of them enough to think that there's a difference.

                                                So the theory is there and it's very good, but we have to be very careful that we're asking for what our value truly is and not just replacing the fact. Physical therapists right now, if you're on acute care, you're not even a billable service. You're getting people out of the hospital and moved out into the next thing. But you're kind of like in this whole overall payment system, at least here in America, where as far as physicians and everybody's in far as corporate is concerned, acute care physical therapists, they're just rolled into the whole thing. They're not seeing you as your own valuable service.

                                                So you know when things may need to get cut, they're going to look at what's going to bring them the revenue and I don't know if we're there yet in the brand of our profession. To go into it showing and really saying this is my value I'm bringing. Instead of going in and being like, oh, I'm so excited I'm doing you such a favor. It's just a mind shift thing that I think we have to be very careful of. My thing is why don't you go build your own business and if they really value you and you market well then they should be by ethics sending people to you and you can get paid way more because you have no ceiling in your own business. That's my thought.

                                                Good. Because I think looking at it from someone who's worked through this system in a slightly different position is good rather than just kind of taking on wholeheartedly: oh, this is going to be really good for me and I will be validated if I get to work with doctors and in hospitals and stuff.

                                                We have to practice what we preach, right. We have to make sure that if we're going in there and we're not going in there in that sort of wounded healer model and needing that. We go in there because we are changing health care and we have to be in a position of power to do that. And then the first thing would be in our own salaries and our own value ladder. And I'm hearing people want a licensure and this and that. And I'm just saying that that's just, political hands being held because there's so much I can't do because I'm licensed and I have to play this game of walking this line that I have. Lliterally I would be able to do so much more online and whatnot if I gave up my doctor of physical therapy.

                                                There's two sides to that. I had a discussion with somebody else about the other side of that, which is if you aren't licensed, then you can be destroyed. You can always run your own business obviously as long as you're within those kinds of guidelines. But it does become more difficult if you want to be within the medical group.

                                                Yes. But you have to understand what that's about .Because they can't make as much money off of you unless you are a licensed provider. They could still respect you. It's just that their liability goes up.

                                                If you're not licensed,

                                                If you're not licensed. It's not because they don't necessarily believe in you. Because honestly, there were very few physicians that will truly be understanding of your education. They just don't. It's not every physician. I'm going to say that I've been in that world and it does not matter that I'm a doctor of physical therapy.

                                                The American Medical Association is constantly fighting the American Physical Therapy association about direct access because when it comes down to it ,we can take money away from them. If you don't need to see a physician and you just walk into a physical therapy office, nine time out of 10 when you have a pain, it's not about cancer. We actually have the skills to make sure that if it looks like cancer, we send them to you, but it's who's getting the money. We do need standards. We do need some sort of regulation because everybody and their mothers are taking a weekend course on yoga for back pain and deciding they're a yoga therapist and you're not. We have to be careful of why we're getting a license. Sure. And what that will entail.

                                                Thank you, Lisa. I was pretty sure this was going to be a really great discussion and it has been because I think you're just saying, hey, stop and think about where you want to go and what you want to do. Because you may have been sold a bill of goods. It's not great because it sounds good. It sounds like you'll be respected in that you'll work with clients, which is what everybody wants to do there. These are helping professions. I love the way you think about it because you have all this experience behind you and I think it's important at this point where there seems to be this rush towards being part of the medical system that maybe we need to think about it.

                                                There's a reason that there's so many medpreneurs now, that there's so many masterminds, that there's so many cash based PT practices and Rehab centers and functional medicine doctors. I mean, we literally have a whole new profession of functional medicine, a new philosophy, and most of those people are not taking insurance and most of those people have left the allopathic confines. Not totally. I mean there's still practicing medicine appropriately, but they've tried to make a path where they could give the care that they believe needs to be given in the way that it can be given.

                                                And we just need to look at that. That's all I'm saying is you just need to see the whole picture. I think yoga therapists should really seriously consider being more along the lines of the functional medicine conversation then the allopathic medicine conversation and they should alliance themselves with functional medicine doctors because those guys get it.

                                                I'm a functional, physical therapist or focused physical therapists. That's all those health coaches. They're all functional medicine. None of them are sitting in there. Those are the registered dieticians that are still sitting there talking about proteins, fats and carbohydrates and giving you a formula like that, that's not going to heal you. The functional medicine people are the health coaches and functional medicine docs and functional medicine therapists and all of that. That's where I think people who are serious about being significant and maybe having some power in how they make their money as well as how they're impacting the world need to go where medicine's going and it's going towards functional medicine.

                                                Give me a quick definition of functional medicine.

                                                Functional medicine is the medical doctors who saw what the naturopaths were doing, the Ayurvedics and the lifestyle medicine. It's the approach of lifestyle medicine. What's nice about functional medicine is it's not a profession specific, so you don't have to be an MD. There's, there's dcs and pts and rns and whatever. It's a philosophy. It's a blanket philosophy which is focused on lifestyle medicine and all the contributing factors into why your body is out of function. It doesn't necessarily wait until you're in a diagnostic disease.

                                                 So if they take blood work, let's say your vitality is down, they're going to look at a much broader screen of your thyroid and your metabolism and all of this stuff, then maybe traditional allopathic medicine person would because they're just looking at your numbers to see when you've crossed the line and you're officially able to be diagnosed with disease. Functional Medicine's going to say, why aren't you feeling well, let's look at the whole picture and let's do a broader scope and see if your T4 is converting to your T3 properly and where this might be an issue. It ends up being a lot of inner inflammation with chronic disease.

                                                Like I said, what is killing us now is chronic stuff that we have a lot of power over by how we eat, how we drink, can we sleep and but the one area doesn't do so well is actually coaching you through that process of change. And so they brought in the health coaches to do some of that work

                                                This has been a great podcast, Lisa. I want to give your contact details . Lisa's website is www.bellyguru.com. You can email Lisa@ bellyguru.com. I don't know why I can't say that. Is that also your Instagram and facebook?

                                                Actually, if you're interested more on the professional side, probably the best way to get me is my personal website, which is www.drlisahollandpt.com And that also is my handle over on Instagram. and you can find me over on Facebook with that as well.

                                                I will note that in the show notes. Okay. So thank you, Lisa. I always like talking to you. You always have such strong opinions.

                                                Well, I'm an evolutionary woman. What can I say? I'm an Alpha.

                                                Thanks so much. And as usual, you've produced a great podcast.

                                                Thank you so much, Stephanie, for having me on and for having this conversation for everyone.

Contact details:

www.drlisahollandpt.com/

Insta and FB: Dr. Lisa Holland P.T.

Episode 125: How to make a change in your business with Laura Kupperman

Major Points:                     1) Making a change in your business is needed if the business is not providing the level of satisfaction that you want.

                                                2) It can be scary to change because it is hard to learn new things, fear of scarcity is common, and/or giving up something that you have invested a lot of time, money, etc. can feel like failing.

                                                3) Following others can be satisfactory or not; it is important to explore what is important for you, what are looking to achieve, and what are your goals.

00:00                                     Hello and welcome to Changing the Face of Yoga - teaching toddlers through golden oldies and very excited to be talking to lots of yoga teachers who will explain their passion for teaching yoga to students with different ages, physical fitness levels, wellness levels, and different goals. They will explain the benefits of yoga for these students and we'll be including teacher tips and pose modifications. I am Stephanie Cunningham of Yoga lightness and I've been teaching over 50s for 10 years. So this area is my passion and the passion of many other yoga teachers that you will be listening to in this series. Thank you so much for listening and let's get started.

00:45                                     This is episode 125 of Changing the Face of Yoga and my guest today is Laura Kupperman. Laura is a long-time career and business coach as well as a certified yoga therapist and she is on the Faculty of Inner Peace Yoga Therapy. Through her coaching, she helps yoga, health and wellness professionals make a bigger impact and grow their income. Laura also runs the popular yoga therapy Facebook group and lives in Boulder, Colorado, where I grew up, where she enjoys just about any outdoor activity. Welcome, Laura. I'm really glad that you were able to come on. To make everything very transparent, Laura was my business coach for a long time. She's really spectacularly good at it.

01:39                                     Oh, thank you. Stephanie. Thank you for having me on your show. I'm really, really happy to be here in talking with you today.

                                                Oh, great. Thanks. Is there anything you want to add to that particular introduction?

01:54                                     Oh, that was just fine. Yeah, thanks.

01:59                                     Laura has agreed to be part of the Yogi support month theme and it is kind of in the businessy arena. But basically it's also just about how you are supporting yourself in life. And the thing I want to talk to Laura about today is, as I said, Laura was my business coach and then she started the Impact group, which was a kind of a mastermind on Facebook and it was for a Yogis, and others who, wanted more in depth discussion and community around making our businesses, financially and personally rewarding. However, Laura decided not to go forward with that, after about a year or so. Laura and I just want to talk about that because I have done that too, where I took a total different view of things. And how do you come to that point where you think, hmm, I think this is not what I should be doing. So if you could start off Laura with your own experience about the Impact Circle or anything else really. I just happened to know about that one just to talk people through how you make a change.

03:27                                     Sure., I'm really glad that this is something you wanted to talk about today because I don't think we talk about it enough. How we course correct or how we change course completely or even leap onto another path when we've invested a certain amount of our energy and resources, you know, our time or blood or sweat or tears or money. so let's see. So the impact circle, right? I had it for about a year and it was a membership community, which I really was excited about and I put a lot of effort into it.

                                                It's still kind of trickling out, so there's still some people in there, but basically there were a few different components. There was a really super supportive small Facebook community. There was a bunch of online resources that people had access to. And then people could reach out to me by email if they had a business question and I would respond to them. And I put a lot of energy into thinking this through on the front end, making sure that you know, the interface looked great and everything was really user friendly on my website and I even experimented with not having the community group in Facebook with using a different platform. I played around with it and I got some Beta testers in there. You may have been one of those early Beta testers, I think too Steph. I put a lot of energy into this and it was really interesting because I was super excited about it.

                                                By the time I launched I almost felt like I had some fatigue because that pre- launch phase was significant. And so you know that that's one thing for people who are listening to kind of think about. So many of us when we put something out into the world wanting it to be perfect, we want it to be of the highest quality and sometimes that's merited and it's justified and you really want everything to reflect really highly. You want it to be at a certain quality and so you wait, you wait until you feel like it's perfected. But more often it makes more sense to put it out there before you're comfortable, before you feel like it's perfected so that you can start to get feedback.

                                                 And I did go ahead and get some Beta testers in there to get feedback on it. However I should have put it out even sooner. Yeah. If you're putting out an online course program, you need to imagine like you're a software company where you know you're going to be putting it out there with some bugs and you just know that, you know, on the fly you will adapt and you'll upgrade and you'll refine. So that was, that was the first part. Like by the time I got to the starting line, it felt like it had been a year. It wasn't quite that long, but it was a long time sort of germinating in my head. It was a long time trying to figure out the best way to do it.

                                                And I had been putting out so much energy without getting anything in return. And I don't even just mean financially, but the reward of seeing the people in the group, I'm benefiting from it. It was kind of working in isolation. That was one piece of it. and the other piece that goes along with that is that this whole perfection thing is like what is the price point. If someone is spending $10,000 on something, you do want the quality to be insanely high, right? Like if someone is buying something that's a really big investment, you want it to be an amazing experience for them. The Impact Circle lesson, that thing in terms of the price point, the price point, depending on whether or not you're doing a six month membership or a year membership, like the most someone would have paid was between 450 and $500.

08:17                                     That would have been for a full year.

08:19                                     For a full year. Yep. And so, you know, in order for me to, to justify the amount of energy and work I was putting into it, I probably should have charged more. That was all the front loading that I did and then the group started. And the group was really lovely. I mean, there were super supportive people in the Facebook group. There were people reaching out to me with business questions by email, which is what I had envisioned.

                                                At a certain point. I came to this huge realization, which was people were not getting the type of results and benefits that I wanted and they may have gotten the type of results and benefits that they wanted. A really interesting conundrum because it's like, you know what, if you're doing some good in the world but you have a bigger vision for yourself or a different scope or level of impact that you want to be making . While there were people who were engaged and who were benefiting. I think especially from the one-on-one email coaching conversations, I wanted to see people making huge leaps in their business. I know because I do work with people one on one, I know that when I work with someone one on one, that's the kind of experience someone typically gets and people just weren't getting it in this structure hardly. I think it's because they weren't as invested. You know, my one on one coaching is definitely a higher price point and if you're paying a couple hundred dollars for something, your level of commitment is not the same as if you're paying thousands of dollars for something.

10:31                                     Correct.

10:33                                     And that's related to everyone who's listening. I hope people remember that as they evaluate how much they're charging for something. If you're not charging enough, people aren't going to be as committed. I think many of us have this, soft spot in our hearts. Like I want to serve everybody, so therefore I should make the price low. So it's accessible to everybody. And then what you get are people who are totally fine missing a session with you or missing a group class or never even watching your online program because there's no pain associated with not participating. They lost $100, not $1,000 or $10,000. Right?

                                                So that was the other piece of it for me. I know from experience I can help people, transform their business, have a different relationship with it, reach more people, reach people more deeply, refine their business model. All these things that people weren't getting, even though there was great camaraderie, and I think they were grateful for the support I could give them. It just wasn't going to happen in this structure. Those were, I think the two big factors that ultimately made this less of an appealing offering for me. I already felt a little drained by the time I started and then I wasn't getting the kind of upside I needed in terms of the impact I wanted to make and in terms of the financial gain for me.

                                                What my business mentor said: he's like, you really need like 500 people in a membership site that's sort of your minimum that you want to shoot for. And I think I had, I don't even remember - 50 something. It was a very sweet group of people in there. Everyone in there was just phenomenal, really sort of lovely, high calibre, bright, engaged, supportive person. But it wasn't doing what I had imagined in my mind and I wasn't prepared to do what it would take to get 500 people in there.

13:11                                     Yeah, that's a lot. It's a lot to manage. I mean that's a huge undertaking. I would just add my own, experience. I was a yoga teacher (I still am a yoga teacher, but I'm not teaching) for about 10 years and I was in the over 50s arena. And although I love yoga and I loved working with the students, I never felt very good at it. And I'm probably am an okay Yoga teacher, I'm not horrid and I'm very well trained in safety and that kind of thing for that age group. I did the thing where I had an online course and Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah. So I did the whole thing, but I never felt personally successful.

                                                And this is probably when I came to Laura and talked about a business coach. I don't think that she really knew she was supposed to make me feel successful. I'd been with her, I don't know, eight, nine, 10 months and all of a sudden she said why don't you do podcasts because what you want is more people to know about you. Tthat's interesting. And so I did and I just got this tremendous, in comparison to my yoga classes, response to what I was trying to do.

                                                 And that's when I knew that given my kind of background and outlook on life, I need to be working on a more general basis instead of a very specific basis with individual students. And I miss my students. I really do. I still am in contact with some of them, but I can't tell you how much the podcast is different to me and how I feel about it. And that's why I changed because quite frankly, the finances are not on the side of the podcast. I made a lot more money teaching and I know that other people don't have that opportunity. But I can do that because I have other sources of income. But I just wanted to say sometimes, even if you really love what you think you should be doing, but it just simply isn't giving you what you need, that's maybe another reason to change.

15:58                                     I loved that you brought that up. And it's funny because right before we spoke I was working on some copy for an email I'm sending out and I was using this metaphor about how when our business model doesn't suit us anymore. It's like wearing a pair of shoes that are a size too small and they might be gorgeous shoes and maybe you paid a lot of money for those shoes so you feel very invested. No, I couldn't possibly get rid of them. But ultimately it feels like we're forcing it. Eventually it can literally cause pain and distress. You know, minimally we start to feel a little burnt out or we're not as enthusiastic about meeting our clients or whatever the endeavour is. and it can even lead to, depending on how deep you are into this, like it can lead to physical disease or illness.

                                                And what is so lovely about the courage that you showed in making a really big course correction with your business Stephanie, is that faith that the well is infinite. It's not like we live in a world where we are allocated a really small amount of resources and we have to hold onto them for dear life because we fear that if we don't hold onto this opportunity, there will never be more opportunities for us.

17:44                                     I think that's subconsciously where some of us can come from. I know I certainly been in that place where you feel like I've worked so hard to (whatever it might be) get this teacher training up and running, get this course up and running at the hospital. I'm being really well compensated for doing certain endeavours. We all need to have faith that if something doesn't suit us anymore, if it's like the shoes we have outgrown. Then you know, we need to just trust in our own capacity and skills and know that there's going to be more opportunities than the opportunities we're letting go of. There's probably someone much better suited in our community or in the world to pick up the mantle and that we will find a whole new way to serve, to be happy to prosper if we really just trust that there's more available for us out there.

18:52                                     I think that's important because it's scary I think to change. I did this for 10 years and I can't tell you the money I've spent on training to do it. But it just wasn't right for me. I think that so many of us love yoga for what it does for ourselves and what we've seen in other people. I'm not sure that we all should go into the yoga teaching, yoga therapy road and that there may be other ways that you can serve the Yoga community. And I feel that I am serving a niche of the yoga community in a way. It seems like we just kind of follow the crowd and maybe you just aren't (you in the generic, not you, Laura) maybe you just need to think about what am I like, what do I love, how can I take my skills, my passion, my purpose into this arena? What is the best way for me? To be a little creative about that, I think

20:12                                     I mean, you know, there are enough people in the world, you know, teaching the five-thirty power Vinyasa class at the most popular studio in town. I no longer teach group classes and feel like my focus within the world of yoga therapy is for people who've been diagnosed with cancer. And after I had trained a certain number of people, I felt like, great, they can teach those classes in my community or in other cities.

                                                And really what I noticed, because part of my teacher training, there was a business mentoring component. So people wouldn't just learn how to safely work with people who had cancer, but they knew how to go talk to people at their cancer center and get a class started. They knew how to market the class. And what I realized was, oh, this is what people need even more than the yoga skills is the business skills. And I had already been coaching for so long that I just decided, you know what, I'm just going to go all in with helping other health and wellness professionals with their business and narrow down the scope of my coaching practice. A lot of times we might feel like when we narrow down, we're going to be closing off opportunities or shutting down that funnel of potential income. And I think if you follow your heart, like what you are saying and get focus, usually the opposite is true. We get more opportunities and we're so much happier.

22:04                                     Yes. I think that's important too.

22:07                                     It is the most important. It is. I've changed my tune on this too over the years. Life is too short to finish reading a book you don't love. So there's like two kinds of people in the world, those who finish what they started no matter what. I used to be one of those, and in fact there'll be people out there who will not agree with what I'm saying. But my husband and I went to go see the movie, called Captain Marvel along with Brie Larson that had gotten great reviews and so many people are raving about, and you know, we have some younger nieces who live in Boulder and they were raving about it. We went to see this movie. In literally 10 minutes in, we both looked at each other- you want to leave now. Because I mean life isn't a dress rehearsal. We all know this, but like our life is now, your businesses is now. If you're not feeling it anymore, it is a relief to shed whatever's no longer serving you and bringing you joy.

23:24                                     I was very torn about not teaching anymore, but there was such a tremendous relief because I felt like such a failure. I didn't feel successful doing it. And it was just a relief not to put that mantle on me any longer. And to then go to the podcast and have people saying, Oh, you know, this, I really love hearing about this and it made me feel connected and all kinds of really, really positive things. And I thought, Whoa, this is where I need to be.

24:04                                     I love that. Also it can become a big part of our identity. I had coaching clients who really have spent years ruminating over should I give up this particular class, or should I stop working with this particular student or let go of this opportunity because there's such a heart connection with our students. And that's a totally a real reason why we might drag our feet. and it also can be a really big part of our identity.

                                                I know for me, for a really long time here in Boulder, I was the yoga for cancer person. I also specialize in yoga for fertility enhancement and just got and had a really great partnership with our local fertility center, which is like an offshoot of a huge fertility center in Denver and south of Denver. That's really the number one fertility center in the country, if not the world. And that can be kind of an ego boost, not necessarily in a positive way, but like all these people contacting you and seeking you out and you're helping them and it becomes a part of your identity. That's hard to let go of. It feels like, oh, I belong. People trust me. They come to me as a reliable resource.

                                                There might be other things that I'm not too proud to say like, oh, people like me. It's something like that that seems really silly. That can be just below the surface of who would I be if I wasn't doing this anymore? Which can be heavy sometimes and it can take you months to make peace with that. Like, who am I if I'm not doing my yoga for seniors training anymore and who you are is this amazing podcast host.

26:15                                     I was lucky that way because I was doing both. And it was a very stark comparison about, and I'm not saying that my students didn't say, Gee, thanks. That was a great class. I really loved it. They were, they were saying that, but it was inside me not thinking that I was doing a good job. Actually, you know what, I wasn't, because with all of my podcasts and people talking about what they do, I realized that I had some serious deficits looking back on my teaching. And so I was right to think I wasn't. I'm probably not as successful at podcasting as I think I am. But it certainly is more satisfying to me to do that. And that I think maybe that's the key. Are you really satisfied with it? And if you're not, what do you do with that?

27:19                                     Yes. And that's something I always encourage my coaching clients to have. And maybe we even did this when we worked together,? Like what is your litmus test for saying yes to an opportunity and you know, satisfaction is sort of, that's like an intuitive feeling. Like yes, I know I'm totally satisfied, but sometimes when you're evaluating opportunities in advance, you're not sure if you'll be satisfied . And we each have to know - is there an opportunity here for me too?

                                                Whatever it might be, to learn something, to have fun, to make some good connections, to make some good money, whatever those things are for you. Just know what they are. And a lot of times I think people will be shocked once they have this litmus test in place. If you go back and review some of the things you've said yes to that you wish you had said no to, it'll be so clear , oh my gosh, why in the world would I have said yes to that? That was such a clear no, or why did I hang onto it for so long? It was such a clear no.

28:36                                     I think really the purpose of this podcast is to say it's okay to change. It is scary. It is hard, I can't tell you how the technology has defeated me on many occasions. But if there's just a basic unease there for whatever reason, I think that needs to be delved into.

29:14                                     I agree. Absolutely. And if, you know, and if you resist that, that needs to be dealt with too. My experience is that a lot of times it is coming from a place of scarcity. Like I can't even entertain the possibility of making a change because, you know, I have something now. If I let go of this, I might have nothing.

29:45                                     I'm so glad you wanted to talk about this stuff. I think, I hope it gives people that sense of permission or at least permission to explore and evaluate if they're satisfied, if they're happy and are they making the best contribution, the contribution they want to be making, whatever that means to them. and if not to just really trust that there's someone else out there to pick up the mantle and make that contribution while you step into the next chapter.

30:25                                     And I'd like to say it's not going to be easy and it's going to be hard. Anything new is hard because you don't know the rules yet. You don't know where your boundaries. But, yeah, I think though that it is important and I think some ways the yoga industry, not the individual yoga person, but the yoga industry is very much about churning out lots and lots of yoga teachers and having them all do pretty much the same thing. And that might be fine. That might be something you really love

30:25                                     Sorry, we had technical difficulties at the very end of this podcast. So added a clip thanking Laura for her contribution to this podcast. Laura gave some very valuable information for making changes and I am very grateful for her participation in this podcast. Hope you enjoyed it.

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Major Points:

                                5:15       Things that usually bring you joy no longer do so is a sign of burnout. Ask yourself why this no longer gives you pleasure.

                                                7:12        There is a mindset associated with burnout that may present as mental, physical, or emotional issues or a combination. Changing this mindset is key to addressing the burnout but professional help may be needed if the mindset is difficult to change.

                                                14:19 Finding purpose: What are the three words that you would want others to use to describe you and what is you intention to elicit that description?

00:01                                     This is Changing the Face of Yoga and this is the 124th episode of this podcast. And my guest today is Susie Bischovsky and Suzie is an expert on protection from and prevention of burnout. I think that that is and can be an issue with yoga teachers and yoga therapists since we give so much of ourselves. I wanted to talk to Susie about this. Suzie is also a yoga teacher and she has her own podcast called Keep Your Candle Lit and she also works in public school education. She embeds what she learned in yoga into her classroom and she teaches gentle yoga at a yoga studio. You could call it extra, extra gentle yoga. We might look into what that means. She's also taught her school colleagues and students at her middle school and she incorporates mindfulness and burnout prevention in the practice. Her ideal client is someone who doesn't think yoga is for them and leaves the class realizing that it is. Welcome, Suzi. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that introduction?

01:30                                     Wow that after listening to that introduction, I'm exhausted, I'm tired. No.

01:38                                     It is an extensive list. I listened to some of your podcasts and one of them really threw me because I thought I knew what burnout is, but given what you said, I don't. I saw burnout was just being so stressed and having so much to do and that you just can't keep going. But what you said, and I'd really like to talk about this, is that if you don't have purpose in your life, passion for what you're doing and vision, that's the cause of burnout many times. So could we just kind of start there and talk about what the causes might be and why you believe this is the cause of burnout?

02:29                                     Yeah. So thank you for that question. as far as that being the cause, maybe it's more like causality or more along the lines of if we sit down and we look at ourselves and we're asking ourselves these questions, what is our purpose? What is our passion? What is our vision? If we can't answer those questions, that could point us in the direction of possible burnout.

02:55                                     Okay, so what we're looking at is not so much a physical overwhelm as kind of being lost. Is that a fair thing to say?

03:08                                     Yeah, I think so. I mean, I feel like the interesting thing for me about burnout is when I was going through my coach training, I didn't recognize that I myself had gone through burnout because it was never framed that way to me. We talk about depression, we talk about anxiety, but at that time, burnout wasn't that thing. Other than like people would say, I'm feeling really burntout or I'm feeling tired. My key was I would say, I'm tired, I'm tired, I'm tired. Or if people wanted to do something, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. It was like that idea of a hamster wheel, but now it's 2019 and the world health organization itself actually cites burnout as a condition to be mindful of and aware of. They do pretty much pigeonhole it towards the workplace, but we see people talking about caregiver burnout and all other things. So I feel it's something that we're still on the cusp of understanding.

04:08                                     So you said that you didn't realize that you had burnout. What would be something to be looking out for if you feel that you may be either on the cusp of burnout or actually burned out?

04:26                                     So if I can add to that question, just the idea of like how is it different or similar to depression or anxiety, specifically depression, because I think someone could very easily say, Oh, I'm burned out and maybe not even recognize the signs of depression. So I also just want to advocate for the importance of having our own wellness team, like your audience, they're familiar with yoga, right? So a lot of us embody yoga as a physical, mental, spiritual practice. For some people it is physical. So what do other people have in their life that guides them to recognizing when something within is calling out to them. So to go back to that original question of how do we know when we're being burned out? Wait, was that the original question? I'm sorry,

05:13                                     That was it. Yes.

05:15                                     Okay, thank you. My brain just went loo la loo. Oh, so to go back to that original question of like how do we know when we're burned out? I think that sometimes people can see it within us before we can see it within ourselves. And one of the things I think to be mindful of is: if the things that normally bring you joy no longer bring you joy, what's underneath that? Or here's an example that seems very like benign, right? So I'm an avid reader, whether it's paper copy or an e-copy, I can sit and I can read and I can read and I can read. And you know what's wrong with that? Reading is a good thing, but if I sit and I don't do anything else for hours and for days for me that pleasurable activity has become either a substitute or a coping mechanism for something else. And sometimes I need someone to kind of say to me like, Hey, so you've been on the couch coma for like a week, what's going on to point that out to me? Or even for yoga practitioners, if yoga is the thing that brings you joy and release and you're avoiding your mat, or you're avoiding yoga on your chair or yoga on your couch or yoga in your car, you're like, we all do yoga all over the place, right? So when you start to run away from that thing that brings you joy or brings you release, I think that's another indication that we need to look at something.

06:41                                     Okay. So that's, that's really very different from what my interpretation of burnout used to be. It's not really so much, if I'm understanding this, a physical tiredness as much as a mental, not an issue, but a mental problem that you may or may not be able to recognize.

07:12                                     I think that's a really good question. When we think about burnout, it could be physical, emotional, and mental exhaustion, right? Or someone might even have a change in attitude or become negative or unconcerned or disconnected. However, from talking to my clients and supporting them through their own burnout prevention, or even recovery at the heart of it, generally speaking, there's like a mindset. And if we can shift the mindset, we can then go after the physical, the emotional, the mental exhaustion. However, if the mindset can't be shifted or can't be unpacked or can't be uncovered, then I think that's when it's time to talk to a traditionally trained professional, like a therapist or a doctor. And talk a little bit more about, is this burnout? Is it something deeper and what are some things that I can do? As an example? one of the things that came up for me years ago was that I was vitamin D deficient and I was like, all right, whatever.

08:11                                     And then as soon as they started to give me the prescription vitamin D, at that time, it was like someone shot sunshine into me. And I was like, wow, is this what it feels like to not be exhausted all the time? So that wasn't necessarily a burnout piece, but that adjustment to what was coming into my body certainly changed how I showed up and presented myself. When I was burnt out, I didn't know that I was burnt out until I wasn't burnt out anymore. And then with the learning and the knowledge that I did, hindsight's everything right? I look back and I went, Oh, that's what was happening. Oh, that's why I took a piece of chart paper and wrote on it all the things that I had to do and wore it like a badge of honor. And that's why before I understood what values were, when I made a list of all the things that I had to do and that were important, my friendships weren't on there, my family wasn't on there, my husband wasn't on there. It was just all very task-oriented. I think that now a days there is still a stigma with mental health. I like to call it mental wellness for some reason. When you say mental wellness, people listen to a conversation differently. I feel that as the conversation has shifted and evolved and has grown, we do talk about this a lot more. Back then I was just, your average really busy really to hired person who thought everything that she was doing was so important and it was not.

09:38                                     So you said that you are in burnout prevention and I like that. What would you recommend to people, the listeners what is important when you're thinking burnout could be an issue for me. What is the preventative things that you might be able to do?

10:08                                     So one of the things that I like to incorporate into my coaching practice, as well as yoga, and in the classroom when my students allow, for a second, a three words to describe yourself in the present moment without attachment, without judgment, without trying to change something, without trying to analyze it. Like just pausing, taking a breath, really scanning the body and what are three words that describe how you are in this moment? And then at the end of something I like to do a ticket out or I ask people to check again. And the misconception is I'm looking for you to take your quote unquote negative words and shift them into positive ones. I'm not.  I don't like when we label the words as positive or negative, but if that's what someone needs to do. Like if you go into something and you're like calm and peaceful and you come out of something and you're angry or anxious, there's a reason why. So being mindful and truly connected to how we're feeling without trying to sugarcoat it or hide it is important. One of the things that I've advocated for people to do is like to find a ritual to do it. So maybe when you're brushing your teeth or you put your hands on your steering wheel or you unlock your door, something that you do every single day. Like I tell the students, hopefully it's when you put on your deodorant because we want to keep our friends close, right? So something where you can check in and identify that. Another thing that I like to do, and I'll be honest here, when I do it, it's awesome. When I forget to do it, I run into trouble. The simple step of gratitude.

11:37                                     Yes. It's very powerful, isn't it?

11:42                                     And notice we both paused after that word came up, right? Yeah. There's something about gratitude that makes us pause. it can take your breath away if you're having the moment of anxiety, a situational anxiety, taking your breath, noticing your breath, thinking about what you're grateful for. And when we're having our worst moments, the answer is nothing. I'm grateful to breathe. I'm grateful to be alive today. I'm grateful that I have resources at my disposal. I'm grateful that the sun is shining. I'm grateful that there's rain for 40 days, not so much, because the flowers grow. Like what is it we can find grateful for? And I often invite people to just trick your brain. If you're truly not grateful, find something that you can say that you are or practice something until it becomes your truth. Because eventually it will come very organically and naturally.

                                                Another simple thing that I would say is figure out if you like quiet or music. So when I meditate or I relax, I try a variety of things. Sometimes I need nothing. Sometimes I need focused silence. Sometimes I need a candle, a crystal. Sometimes I need music. Sometimes I need an Ohm chant. Sometimes you need a mala. Experiment. I think too many times we try something and it doesn't work so we move on to the next thing as opposed to trying the thing multiple ways and you don't have to do it the same way. You don't fail at it, right? Like there's no report card that says you failed this, you can't do it anymore.

                                                So whether it's any of those three things that I mentioned or just other things, finding something, trying it and finding a way to make it into a ritual. You mentioned that I'm a school teacher, I have been teaching for 22 years. My summers, I'm quote unquote off. And if any of your listeners are teachers, they understand what I mean by the air quotes of being off. But summer does grant me some more freedom and flexibility with my schedule. And this summer I was super, super careful to cultivate for myself some practices that I could then transfer over during my busy season and not go, well that was summer Suzi, false. Suzi can't be mindful, can't relax. She can't find the thing because she's too busy. Like I think a lot of us, whatever our professions and roles are, we fall into these seasons and we find something that works for us, we run out of time and then we let it go. So I really advocate for super simple, short practices. Okay.

14:19                                     I'd like you to explain a bit more about your thoughts on, purpose, passion and vision. I think those are such fundamental things that many of us may not really consciously think about. I at one point not anymore, had a retirement podcast and that was the theme of that was having passion and purpose, because you are reinventing your whole life and so it can be difficult.                 I think it's equally difficult just not with any major changes in your life, but really kind of knowing who and what you are and what you want to achieve.

                                                When you said retirement, I sat up a little straighter. I'm not close to retirement. I did indicate that I was teaching for 22 years. And to be perfectly honest, I don't know if I'll retire in 10, 15, 20 or 25. But for me, I'm being mindful of my own purpose, passion, and vision. So when I do transition, I can transition into that which I love and not transition into a hamster wheel.

                                                So in answer to that about purpose. I invite your listeners to think about purpose as what's your intention? How do you want to be? How do you want to show up in the world? Maybe purpose is: if you are eavesdropping on people, talking about you, right? What three words would you want them to use to describe you and then what's your intention to earn that? What actions are you taking each day?

                                                 And I'm not thinking about smart goals or measurable outcomes, but more about like what is it you want to do? so for me, my purpose varies, but generally speaking, my purpose is to be kind. Yes, I'm publishing a book in the fall, yes, I'm going to release an online course. Yes, I'm going to do these things, but my purpose is to be kind. Before our call I was reviewing old text messages. And ironically I took a picture of one and the person reached out to me and said, I just wanted you to know that when I think about you, I picture you smiling and I can't say the same about everyone else. And I thought, that's awesome because this person has seen me cry, scream, rant, all the things. But when they think of me, they think of the smile and I think that speaks to the kindness. Am I kind 100% of the time? My students would challenge that, right? My husband would and when we just had the discussion about the air conditioning today very loudly. I feel like I can, I keep saying I feel like. Because I feel that that's where purpose is. It's our intention. It's our feeling. It's our heartbeat. My goal is to be kind. My goal is to walk in peace and my goal is to support people in finding their light, whether they're children or adults or any other variation.

                                                 When I think about passion, to me that goes back to your motivation to stick to your purpose. So the name of my podcast is Keep Your Candle Lit and that's because of the light within us. So what is it that we do? What is it that you do that keeps your flame ignited? How do you stay lit? And then on the other side of that is what dims your light? What dims your light?

                                                A heartbeat of the work that I do is this expression, our self-talk becomes our life walk; our self-talk becomes our life walk. So if you are negatively talking about yourself, that's going to dim your light and then you're going to walk in that manner. Think about someone who like gets a compliment and then they walk with their head held high and then think about someone that gets verbally berated and they walk with their head down low. There is a difference there. So what is it that we're doing that keeps us lit? What are we doing or what happens that dims our light and even the people around us, right? Like who are the people that are stoking our flames and who might be trying to distinguish us or I'm sorry, who might be trying to extinguish us? But I like to distinguish us. That's nice. Friendly, right? Head over the people that distinguish you, not extinguish you.

                                                And then, finally on that purpose, passion, vision train. The idea of vision is of course, how do you see yourself? But it's the alignment of your purpose and passion. Like in our best life, those two integrate, right? Like we can live the life we want, walk the path we want and have it all integrate either in the short term, in the long term, it can be action oriented. But truly for me it's like how I want to be. So if my intention is to be kind and I know that taking 10 minutes a day to listen to calming music keeps me lit and I know that engaging in negative self-talk or shoving donuts in my mouth, which is my easy go to dims my light, right? If I make the good choices so I can be kind, then when people leave my presence, they walk with their head held a little bit higher. When people leave my presence, they feel warm. When someone walks away from me and they seem more stressed than when we started a conversation, that's when I know that perhaps I'm not being 100% myself.

                                                And I recognize that that is also about another person. I get that, it's a two way street there. For me with students, with adults, I want people to know that they're heard. I want people to know that they're seen. And I want people to know that they're valued. And that's why for me, when we do talk about yoga, I don't do headstands as a part of my practice. I love people that do. I think it's magical. I think it's amazing. It's not part of my practice. I can't twist myself into a pretzel. The majority of the people that I work with, they're looking for the release on the mat and if they one day can get to the twisted pretzel and the head stand, that's awesome. But I want the people that say yoga isn't for me, so I can show them how it's not only a physical practice.

20:46                                     Let's talk a little bit more about that. You said that you do extra, extra gentle yoga. What would that really look like when you call it that?

21:01                                     In full disclosure, at the end of August I'll still be doing yin yoga training, because I kind of feel called toward that. I'm wrapping up Yoga Nidra training as well because I felt called to that. When I teach yoga, I don't even like to say the word teach. I know that I'm the teacher when I facilitate, when I support, when I offer yoga. One of my first classes that I ever taught beyond karma classes, so I was like working for the studio. Here we go. One of my friends came and like she never did yoga and she was like, I'm not doing that for all the reasons why. And she came and at the end she's like, that was the equivalent of a really good massage. Thanks. And she has since gone off to do yoga at a whole bunch of studios, she jumps around, she lost weight, she has more flexibility and I think she has more peace of mind is my understanding, which to me is more important than all the other things.

                                                When people enter a class, I offer them time, like we all do to get settled in and find something that they're comfortable with, a nice comfortable position. And then of course we do breath work and we do body scans and all the beautiful things, but I try to offer some sort of an embedded burnout prevention tip. It could again be a gratitude or the three words, something along those lines or it could be something a little deeper, especially as I get to know some of the yogis that are in the room. I would say my yoga class is anti-flow, meaning instead of inhaling and exhaling into poses like a flow class, we might hold a pose or hold the action of getting into a pose for several breaths before we transition into the next piece. I feel that we do less postures, more holding, more breath work sometimes with props, sometimes without, and as far as it being extra, extra gentle, I have discovered a trend of late that I do more groundwork then standing poses, although I do incorporate them because I understand we have to like bring in the balance of all the things. Mountain pose. Oh my gosh. Do you love mountain pose, Stephanie?

23:22                                     Some days. Some days it seems not worth it.

23:33                                     I will say that I love a mountain pose. And when we do Tadasana. If you can picture this. First, we start in the traditional with the hands releasing to the earth and generally eyes are closed or they're invited to have eyes closed and we take breaths and we breathe and then I ask people to check in with their fingers pointed to the earth, what are they releasing? And then after a couple of breaths, we raise our arms. So they're shoulder height, hands, extended palms facing one another. And I invite them to consider what they're reaching for. And then after that hands go above the head, pointing toward the sky, what would you like to express gratitude for? And then after that hands come to chest. What are you hoping for or some variation of that. So, we can take a pose like that. And play with it a little bit and incorporate some language that really invites reflection. Maybe it invites reframing a negative thought that we had during the day or negative self-talk. Something along those lines.

                                                Oh, and I just want to give a shout out for child's pose. Oh my gosh. I think I just kind of described how I am, right. That just pigeons me. I feel like child's pose is such a delicious release and I love using props to bring the earth closer. And I love witnessing people do child's pose with a variety of adjustments that they make themselves and watching people's faces when they come out of child's pose is like my favorite part of the practice. I absolutely can include sun salutations or moon cycle, but when I do, they're done slow as well. Right? So stepping into one of the postures, holding it, stepping into the next one. So I guess you could say extra, extra gentle is just super slow and mindful.

                                                I don't think anyone's going to break a sweat necessarily, however, I think that they're going to get increased flexibility. And a release from stress and tension. I'm also known, this is so embarrassing, but I think it's just become my thing. Like my brain goes a hundred miles a minute and I have to slow it down during my own practice of yoga as well as when I'm teaching and facilitating. I've definitely called the ankle - foot wrists - so many times that it comes out of my mouth almost all the time without even thinking about it. I'm definitely the kind of person that if you're not interested in laughing during a yoga class, I might not be your cup of tea. Cause generally people are laughing at me in a very nice and gentle way. But I think it, it all comes from wanting to be of service to people, right? Like no one becomes rich becoming a yoga teacher. We all have something that calls us to teach yoga. And for me, I never wanted to be a yoga teacher. I just wanted to deepen my own practice and understand it more teaching was an accident.

26:52                                     But I do like all of the things that you're incorporating. I mean I think I can really like Tadasana if I had all those cues to really reflect while I'm doing it. I mean I can understand that. And yet you've said previously those are really good cues, really good things to be thinking about, especially in the context of burnout and looking at it from a preventative point of view. I'm wondering if slow yoga, we'll call it that or we could call it extra gentle, gentle yoga is kind of the opposite. The pendulum has swung from the very, very athletic, physical aspects of yoga and now people are maybe starting to talk about some other aspects of yoga. They aren't sometimes as accessible as the physical and yet they are equally, if not more, important. I think I would enjoy an extra gentle, gentle yoga class with you. I would like the reflection part of it, because that, especially when you're teaching, I think it's, it's difficult to be reflective of your own practice. You are working out poses and all that kind of thing. I think that's a really good offering. If you were going to tell the listeners anything that we haven't talked about or that you would like to talk about in more detail, what would that be?

28:52                                     So I love the title of your podcast and when I think about changing the face of yoga, I want children to understand that yoga can be athletic like you've said. Right? But that yoga can also be a way for them to chill out, decompress. And even if they have to go onto technology to access a yoga class, it's okay for them to step away from the technology and, and take a break to do something along those lines. When I've incorporated yoga in the classroom, not systemically, I like to do a little more systemically this year I've had some sections that are more receptive than others and sometimes it's a chair, sometimes it standing, but it's certainly more relaxing than athletic cause we have some space considerations and safety issues to consider. But when they do like a half moon pose or tadasana or even a simple twist that's slow and they're breathing, that change in them and the change in the environment after. It just makes sense.

                                                So for people that are listening, if they are yoga teachers, encouraging them to find a way, if their schedule allows just to do a, maybe a voluntary drop in at a school somewhere, someone was receptive to that or if someone has a studio, I'm sure that there are people that are doing yoga classes for kids. I would love to see more of yoga with parents and children, specifically adolescents because that can be such a time where adolescents and parents are butting heads. And I think a yoga experience could be a nice way to bring people together, especially around a real beautiful theme. So I would just invite your listeners to just to consider, to think about how the world would change and how the way we all engage with each other would change if our children could find ways to be mindful and prevent their own burnout. Hmm.

31:11                                     Well thank you. That's a lovely thought. I taught seniors and yes, yoga is very, very beneficial for them. But, when you teach children, hopefully you're teaching them some lifelong skills and giving them tools that will help them. I think that's a lovely thought. So thank you so much. I want to thank you for coming on. Suzi is going to be part of yoga teacher month where we're going to talk about issues, opportunities, those kinds of things for yoga teachers and one of them is burnout. I've learned quite a bit cause I obviously had the wrong idea about it, which is okay.

31:59                                     Can I jump in on that one thing? I don't think that you wrong idea. I think everything you said or thought is valid and it's what's out there too. I just invite us to think about it on an additional level because I think sometimes, if we say that it's a physical piece, there's a difference between being tired and tired, right? If there's an emotional piece, well I'm really fine, right? Fine is the worst F word that's ever been created. And if it's mental exhaustion and mental exhaustion or mental fatigue, like who wants to talk about mental health, right? So if we can look at it from that lens, like you said, and thank you for listening into that episode. I appreciate the feedback that you gave. It could be safer to think about purpose, passion and vision, and that could then lead to deeper conversations that support people and understanding the difference between being tired, being exhausted, being burntout and being depressed. So, please, I absolutely think your interpretation and understanding is correct. I just think we can also add more to it as well.

33:02                                     I think that that's important because if you feel stressed because you're doing so much, you may or may not have the opportunity to change that. But if you look at it from a differently - a different lens, you can certainly look at what your passion is and what your purpose might be and how you achieve that. So I think that's a very positive way that everybody can do. It's really part of yoga, isn't it? The reflection part. We really think a little more deeply about some things. So thank you so much, Suzi. I really appreciate you coming on. I think that this has been very, very informative and I agree with you, a very different way to look at burnout and, and hopefully, getting a little more into the burnout prevention mode than we've been before. So thank you again for coming on the podcast.

34:03                                     Thank you for the invitation.

Contact Details:

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.coachucation.com

Insta: coachucation

Facebook: coachucation

Major Points:

1. Carla started yoga after refusing for many years to go to classes and found that the stillness and meditation were immensely beneficial to her and she started taking classes regularly.
2. Through classes and studying, she found many tools to increase her happiness.
3. She took teacher training, opened her own studio with a mission to help people find their why and their happiness using the tools to yoga.

                                                This is episode 123 of changing the face of Yoga and my guest today is Carla Simpson and Carla is known for being full of energy, love, and inspiration. She's very enthusiastic about life and love and wants to experience as much of what life has to offer. She has discovered her why. My mission in life to help others live a happier and more fulfilled life. And she's going to share with us how she uses this inspiration in her yoga teaching. . And to hssist for students. She opened her own yoga school four years ago, Happy Hot Yoga, and they have a range of classes to suit everyone. And they also are a yoga community, a real family. We have social dinners once a month, workshops and yoga retreats. So welcome Carla. And would you like to add anything to that introduction?

01:47                                     No, I think you got it all. Thank you very much for having me on the show. And you're right. I do. I'm a big lover of life. That's cool.

01:56                                     Great. Okay, let's start there. You said you were on a journey of self-discovery and that's when you discovered your why. Can you talk a little bit about that.

02:02                                     Growing up, I hated yoga. You couldn't have got me into a yoga class at all. My mom was always doing yoga and I just remember, getting up in the morning and her out in the lounge room on her yoga mat doing in class. It wasn't me and she always trying to encourage me, but I've always been a bit of an adrenaline junkie. Growing up I got very into fitness and running marathons, things like that. It was only that my knee was really starting to ache a lot in the long runs. My physio kept saying, you should go to yoga, it will really help you. And I was like, no, I don't do yoga, I don't do yoga. Anyway one day, I cried my way to the finish of one of the races, and I was in my head, I'm not going to do this anymore.

03:04                                     So I'd dragged myself to a yoga class and yeah, it wasn't the first class that definitely changed my life. But in that sort of journey into the first few classes, I, I first started with Bikram Yoga, more because it was the adrenaline as well of the hotness, the hard. I found it very difficult and I couldn't believe that I couldn't do some of it. So that was what dragged me back. And then I had gone to visit my friend who lived a little bit out of the town that I live in and I thought I was going to do a Bikram yoga class. But when I got there, the teacher had said, oh, sorry, we had to change your schedule is not bikram Yoga. And at that point I would have walked away. but I'd already paid.

03:55                                     I was a student then, so I was like okay, fine. So I dragged myself into these class and it was like a slow class and it was strong. It was something teacher said to at the end in savasana and it honestly changed my life. I still remember it. I was just lying there and she says, so it's now time to turn off the voices in your head. If you think you have no voices in your head that was a voice that just told you that you have no voice in your head. aI was like, oh my God, I have a voice in my head and I'm not the only one. Then that was the start for me was I wanted to find out more about how to find that stillness in that space.

04:43                                     And I started to get really into yoga then and more into mindfulness and meditation. And I really discovered what true happiness is without our voice telling us different things or what we should be doing or could be doing. But how I could just feel happy and joyful in any moment and that it was my choice. So that was the start of my whole journey. And then I just really loved what yoga had done for me. And the closest yoga school to where I live was about 20 minutes and I just one day, sort of having a conversation with my ex-boyfriend at the time, so said, why isn't there a yoga school around our area? And then anyway, that put the plan in my head and the plan started to grow and so I opened up my own yoga school.

05:34                                     Oh, excellent. you say that you are helping people find their purpose and you have a multitude of ways to do it. You've been an entrepreneur or business owner, global backpacker and a podcast host. And so I like all these different ways you're looking at it, but you are a yoga teacher and so how are you trying to meet that purpose, that mission, that why through your yoga studio or your yoga teaching.

06:06                                     Well really, for me it's just about sharing my experiences and my knowledge throughout my class and then throughout the studio. So if you come to a class with me, you probably get one of my stories. I just spent a month working in an orphanage in India over December. And so the first part of me coming back, I was sharing stories of that and I'm really just trying to educate people that we can be happy no matter what's going on in our lives at any one point. And life is a journey. We're always going to have ups and downs. Kind of like yoga class, we're falling in, we're falling out of poses.

06:48                                     But that stillness in there is  being okay with whatever is going on around us. So that's really what, for me it is about and just really helping people to be happy with themselves. We spend so much time growing up trying to change ourselves. Every advert on television wear this makeup, whiten our teeth or whatever it is. But I think we all can just learn that we're perfect the way we are. And it's a hard journey sometimes, but that's why I want to help people realize.

07:30                                     Your school is Happy Hot Yoga, so I assume that you're doing hot yoga. You said that you like the adrenaline at one point and so isome of them would probably be very physical, but it sounds to me like you are saying that and please tell me I'm wrong, the meditation, the stillness, how you think about yourself, the self-talk, all of that is more of the journey to being happy then actually the physical. Is that a fair statement?

08:09                                     Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The physical just helps us sometimes find that space and I think a lot of us feel good when we are being physically active as well. So we have a range of classes at a studio. We not all just power, strong classes. We have the slow, the meditation, the yin classes as well but I think that often in that flow or it's in that everyday life, where it can get chaotic that we sometimes need to learn to just be okay with the stillness and be able to find the stillness even when things are strong around us or we are caught up in an argument or whatever it is or your yoga class. I think that you find the true happiness when you can allow this, not necessarily the stillness, but you can allow yourself to have the, maybe the chitter chatter or the boys talking on the sidelines and you didn't have to be so involved in that by choosing to react or choosing to just let it pass by.

09:16                                     You now have a yoga studio that's in an area that didn't have one before. And how are you introducing the community to Yoga?

09:31                                     Well, we've been here for four years now. So a word of mouth is definitely a great tool. But I do lots of different things. Like we have obviously our Facebook and social media, but we have these signs up and I put our flyers and offer free classes to mostly people in cafes around the area. We might go out, I've spoken at events. Earlier this year I spoke at a big event in Gosford, which is a health event. So I spoke and hosted the meditation in the morning there. It's just brand awareness really, but I think what assisted me was word of mouth and it has taken four years to build the studio up. I've got other teachers now we're running workshops, teacher trainings, things like that. It has been a climb. I'm not going to lie. That's what I love about it too; is it has been journey. And I remember those days of first opening the studio and having no one show up to some classes. And it broke my heart. But as you chug on and the next class someone will show up. And that's what happened. And over time it has grown.

10:52                                     When you talked about your first experiences with Yoga, I think it's important sometimes that we take into consideration what the student is going through, because our own ego, like it is upsetting when you have a class and nobody shows up. I've been there. But when you're talking about, the first class wasn't all that great, but you went back and then you finally found what made sense for you. How do we make that transition for the students, especially a new student to understand that there's so much that yoga offers and maybe this particular class or this particular way of doing things, isn't it? But that there's lots and lots that they can dip into.

11:46                                     Oh, sure. And that I think, is something that is so important that new students understand. So when new students walk into my studio, I always introduce myself and we have a community so everyone might be chatting around and we'll introduce ourselves to the new person. Even the other students will. My students are very welcoming as well, which is lovely. Then throughout the class I always talk about picking the options that best fit you, taking your time, that yoga is a journey and we're not really here training to be able to stand on our head or to do all these amazing, cool poses. I think we're just really training to become better at life.

12:28                                     And that's what I often say to people is that, not every day is our day and some classes I turn up to I walk away thinking, Oh God, I've had enough. I'm done. But that's the shit that I'm going through on that day. And, sometimes we can step back from things so involved in ourselves and just let it all fall off the mat. Then we can realize that. And I do believe that it takes a new client a few classes. I do love to watch that journey myself. I always say you see these new people and I was one of them; they can't shut their eyes, their eyes are looking around at everyone else and they can't sit still, they're twitching.

13:10                                     But then I always say that four classes in, then you see it'll drop away and you see them slowly sink into their mat and they shut their eyes and it's like that light bulb goes off and they're like, oh my goodness. I think that it is a journey and I think it's important to explain that to clients and it's still a continuing journey to me as well. Gosh, I don't think we're ever going to be perfect. And there's no such thing anyway, but I'm training to be better at my life and I think yoga helps me become a better person and to make better choices in my life.

13:44                                     You've been a variety of things. I love the global backpacker, and you're doing podcasts and I assume that the entrepreneur and business owner has to do with yoga, but maybe you had other things. But why did you choose the yoga path, given all of these great things that you've done?

14:09                                     I still do them as well. I always say to people I am a jack of all trades. I always say yoga really changed my life and it made me become a softer person. I'm not so hard. Not that I was hard. But I still am very driven, still, that Type A personality, but yoga allows me to come back to my roots. And I still travel a lot. But yoga has taught me so much about just the way to live life, gratitude and kindness. Just trying to be conscious of the little moments that I get to experience.

15:02                                     So maybe once when I backpacked I wasn't so aware of everything going on around me. when now when I do it, it's a totally different experience and I'm just very humbled and grateful for the people I meet and the kindness that is shown across all areas of the world. I do think that yoga and the yoga teachings, the yoga philosophy has helped me as a person to be able to understand that and to understand myself more and to understand really what makes me feel the best. And it might not necessarily be the yoga practice, but it might be showing acts of gratitude to people, smiling at someone down the street. But for me that whole lesson came through yoga.

15:47                                     But you've really delve deeper into that. Do you try to introduce the yoga philosophy in your classes?

16:00                                     Yeah, always, but always doing different teachings. Each week I'll have a different theme in the week. We're always learning about all that. Yes.

16:08                                     Okay. And how do your students react to that?

16:12                                     Oh, they love it, they love it. Yeah. So at the studio you get like all different, you might still get a work out, but you'd definitely get some yoga learnings and I do a monthly newsletter with a little passage in it. There's always things. Then I do believe that as I just said, that everyone that comes to our studio will walk away maybe more physically fit. Yes. Maybe not. They might come to the meditation classes, but they will come with a deeper understanding of what I believe life is truly about.

16:47                                     Is there anything that you would particularly like to either expand on that we've talked about or something we haven't touched on at all that you would like to share with the listeners?

17:00                                     I mean, my purpose and my why now is to help people, to be able to make those conscious choices every day that they can choose to be happy. They can choose to smile no matter what's going on around them. And yes, for me the teachings came from Yoga, but that was my personal journey. So whatever teachings anyone can get from me or from my journey, then hopefully that helps them become better in living their life. Because I think we're all on a different journey. And yoga is so broad. There's so many wonderful things that we can learn from yoga or take from Yoga and my job I feel is just to open up what those lessons are in the way that people like to experience it at my studio. And then hopefully they can take that and share that with their life and their families and the way that their world.

17:59                                     You're trying to help people find their purpose is what you told me. How does that go from having a yoga class? And I understand that you're certainly trying to offer them a really large spectrum of yoga. but do you think that's how they come to that purpose when they can quiet the mind and feel a little better about themselves?

18:32                                     I totally believe that. Yeah. When you start to quiet your mind and you realize you've got an intuition and that intuition is talking to us, and if we allow ourselves to listen to that, that's when your purpose comes back. So sometimes it's a journey to get to that point, but that is definitely what happens, I believe, and in my own experience.

18:56                                     So, let's talk a little bit about the podcast. Why did you decide to start a podcast?

19:05                                     I loved podcasts myself. I love listening to podcasts. I have a little puppy dog and I was always walking down the street and listening to something and it just makes me smile. It was one of my favorite things to do. And I was just talking to a friend how I wanted to share my story. I wanted to share my learnings and my teachings about yoga and happiness and how I could do that maybe on the bigger scale. It was literally over a cup of coffee. She said, well, Carla, you're such a great chatter. You could do your own podcast. And then I was like, I've never even thought about it. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then, and again, a seed was planted in my head and then I sort of, again, just sort of let it sit there. And then throughout my yoga, my meditation, listening to my intuition, I decided that, yeah, I'd give it a go and see what would happen. And that's what happens.

20:09                                     Explain your podcast purpose or whatever you would like to call it in a few words. I know that you interview people, but what are you trying to get across?

20:26                                     Happiness and that happiness is a choice. So that's my main message. But then I interview different people from just all different areas of life that are doing things. And I ask them about things that make them happy because everyone finds happiness from a different thing. This is what I'm trying to change; the education is that happiness doesn't come from external things. We grow up thinking if we get that job or we get that house or we get that boyfriend, then we're going to be happy. But happiness really comes from within and the choices that we make in every day. And I think that yoga has helped me learn to listen to my intuition so that I can make those right choices and then make me a happier person.

21:11                                     I'm trying to get everyone's view on what they do to make themselves that little bit happier every day. And then we educate more people out there that these little things like maybe smiling at a person down the street. Someone was saying their happiest moment is when they call their mom every day just to say hello to their mom. so just that there are so many different ways we can live our life and be consciously aware of the choices we're making to make sure that we feel good and we feel happy. And we can learn to listen to that intuition and be more complete with just even the incomplete.

21:52                                     It sounds really interesting to have all these people talking about what makes them happy. I agree with you. I bet that most of them aren't external, more internal about what you do and what you think. So thank you so much, Carla. This has been great And thank you so much Carla for coming on the podcast. I really love your message. I think it's great and that it's coming through you as a result or as a start from yoga.

23:23                                     Yoga is something that's part of me now and I could never imagine my life without it. And once I could never imagine my life with it. All those people out there that haven't quite yet stepped into that. It can be scary to step onto that mat, but honestly I say to people all the time, that changed my life.

23:42                                     Thank you so much. I appreciate you coming.

23:45                                     No worries. Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely.

Contact details

email: [email protected]

website is www,carlamaree.com.au and \ www.happyhotyoga.com.au

Facebook: happyhotyogaWoyWoy

Instagram is CarlaMareeSimpson and happyhotyoga

Podcast: Get Happy Hour podcast.

00:01                                     Hello and welcome to change the face of yoga teaching toddlers through golden oldies. I'm very excited to be talking to lots of yoga teachers who will explain their passion for teaching yoga to students with different ages, physical fitness levels, wellness levels, and different goals. They will explain the benefits of yoga for these students and we'll be including teacher tips and pose modifications. I am Stephanie Cunningham of yoga lightness and I've been teaching over 50s for 10 years. So this area is my passion and the passion of many other yoga teachers that you will be listening to in this series. Thank you so much for listening and let's get started.

00:48                                     This is episode 122 of changing the face of yoga and today we're going to do a very short, fun podcast. When I produce my podcast for release, one of the first things I do is a transcript and it is usually quite good. But I've had several guests this year that have been talking about some of the more subtle aspects of yoga and so it doesn't quite know how to translate Sanskrit and some of the things that comes up with are quite funny. I'm going to give you just a short look at this. If you are interested in looking at some more, just go to the show notes of this particular podcast and I'll add some more in, but just to give you a taste of how very, very confused the artificial intelligence transscription service gets by Sanskrit.

                                                Let's start at the very basic, which is what does it think Sanskrit is?Well, it came up with sunscreen, which I rather liked. Hatha is hot tea and yoga is yells. I don't know where that came from, but anyway, Asana is assets, which I think we'd all agree with, don't you? Ujaii breath is with GI breath. One of my favorites was when we were talking about chanting and my guest said that her students would come up to her and say, I really liked that happy, puffy breath and this is in pure English, so I don't know just why it happened, but then it came back with happy puffy breast, which kind of reminded me of a self-inflating breast implant. I just thought it was kind of cute. I really liked that when we get into some of the terms of yoga in the yoga philosophy, it really did confuse it greatly.

03:17                                     Vritti: apparently it thinks of people when you say vritti so we have Christine, Ruthie, I don't know where that came from and for Richie. It took me quite a while to figure out what we were talking about when I was editing the transcript. Namaste is numbers stay and  Upanishads, which I really do love is called funny shots (or open. A shoddy). Don't ask me, I don't know. Shakti is champion, which actually isn't far off. Shiva is Shavon and Jalandhara is jolly turban. I think I might always, always remember it as jolly turban from now on. Moolahdhara is Moodles. Moodles sounds nice, doesn't it? Kind of, I don't know. Something to do with poodles.

04:19                                     I had several guests this year about, like I said, the subtle aspects of yoga and so we talked about chakras and we talked about mudras and we talked about yoga Ninja, sorry, now it's got me saying it. We talked about yoga Nidra and they came up with some really, really funny kinds of translations. As you might've guessed, yoga Nidra is often written in the transcription as Yoga Ninja. Chakras are several things and it was interesting because Kristine Kaoverii Weber taught me how to say chakras and it is that hard cha instead of Shah. And so if I was saying it correctly, and she of course was always saying it correctly, was chockers or chuckers or choppers or chocolate and if I wasn't saying it correctly, it was called shockers. Chakras are definitely confusing to transcription. Mudras are the same. I have quite a few on Mudras. I'll just give you a few. A mood Rose. That's kind of a lovely thought, isn't it? Metrology. I'm not sure where that came from. Motors and my favorite - Madeira. Tantric was contract and I think my absolute favorite is Gomaghasana and it came out as cammo cousins.

06:10                                     It's always good just to laugh. There's also laughter yoga. Haven't ever taken that but I'm sure it was a really good, experience. All this is, it's just a little bit of a laughter to have us remember that laughing is also important in life. This is just a little bit of self care just to get you laughing and thinking about some of the ridiculous things that this transcription service came up with. So thank you so much. Like I said, very short, very sweet and to the point. Hope you enjoyed these bloopers. It was fun for me to gather them together and get some lists going. And just actually be kind of in awe of the creativity of the transcription service of all the different things they came up with for words that were obviously very normal to us and not at all familiar to it. Thank you so much for listening and this is Stephanie Cunningham.

07:37                                     If you would like to be a guest on changing the face of yoga, please go to my website, www.yoga lightness.com.au under the changing the face of yoga tab. You can complete the be our guest form after reviewing the form and finding it applicable to this podcast, and we will send you a link to schedule an interview.

                                                Please download, review, and tell your friends of any podcasts that are of interest to you and to them. If you would like to contact me, email to [email protected] guiding you and thank you for listening to changing the face of yoga.

Additional Transcriptions:

Chakras: child, chapter, charter, truckers, tracker, chuck rose, shoppers, shock grows, shocker is

Mudras: Mujeres, blue dresses, blue dress, motors, motorised, motive, Missouri, Woodrow(?), withdraws

Kriya: Korea

Gamoghasana: goa goose center, gomo us.

Agni: agony

Ayurveda: are yours I

00:45                                     This is the 121st episode of changing the face of Yoga and my guest today is Ayanna Parrent. She is a the owner and founder of Befree coaching and wellness, a wellness center whose mission is to change people's lives through Movement, mindfulness and fun. She is a licensed independent clinical social worker, registered Yoga teacher and certified fitness instructor in multiple areas. Her goal is to help people heal from issues such as trauma, addiction, depression, and other issues that get in the way of people living their best lives. Welcome. And is there anything you'd like to add to that introduction?

01:35                                     No. Hi, that was wonderful.

01:41                                     Now you say that BeFreeWellness is a wellness community and offers yoga classes there. Is that correct?

01:53                                     Yes. That's great.

01:54                                     I want to start the podcast with this great idea that you gave me, which is that you're committed to making movement, fitness classes and yoga classes accessible to all. You've designed your studio to include people of color, men and larger bodies. So can we just go into that a little bit. First of all, why do you think that's important?

02:24                                     Oh my gosh. Well I think that's actually most important just coming from a personal standpoint that Yoga really helped me to heal personally and change my life. I'm a person of color and I just think that what I was seeing in studios, particularly my own personal journey and just talking with friends. It became particularly hard when you would go to studios and there was prominently, mainly white women, thin, white women, and not a ton of larger bodies, not a ton of diversity. There was men, but there was, without trying to stereotype, there was like really hardcore men.

                                                I just started just on a personal journey of yoga myself. I'm a person in recovery and it's really helped me with addiction and just to really help me with my thoughts and sort of controlling negative images of myself or anything negative. It really was the catalyst of releasing some of that. The movement piece is really important. However, I feel like the mindfulness is the key to yoga. And I feel like a lot of it's become certainly commercialized and all these clothes and stuff. Who really cares? And mats are just so expensive. Yoga teacher trainings are a gazillion dollars which would certainly block out any person of color or a person that doesn't have a lot of money. It's just finding that in order to really heal some groups of people that really need it, we have to look at it in a different way and sort of offer it in a different way and talk about it in a different way. To speak to certain communities that otherwise might not access this. I just sort of found that as my mission as I opened my studio.

04:29                                     What are the specific things that you're doing that is making it more accessible?

04:36                                     I do a lot of marketing to communities of color. I live on Cape Cod right now. It's not a huge, diverse community, but there are places where people are. I just make myself available. I really work hard to market to those areas, offer different discounts , or keeping prices low that you can access that or giving discounts to certain communities that would allow them to access it. And again, I also put in my marketing and everything that you'll see publicly that I write in there that it's for all bodies, it's for diversity. It's for people of color so that when you actually go to the website or look at any market materials, you can see that this is going to be like an inclusive place. I've had people call: I saw this, is this true? Yeah. I've had people that are larger bodies. It's hard to walk into a place. Not only am I saying that, but is that true? Like how are you doing that? So we've had people call, which I totally love and appreciate and their experience has been great. I've just asked for feedback as well.

                                                You can still offer yoga, you can still offer Vinyasa, but you can offer it in such in a way where all bodies can access different poses so you don't have to be so rigorous. It doesn't have to be, you can show modifications. You can adapt it so that anyone one can do them. You can certainly design sequences if you have enough knowledge and background that pretty much anybody can do, but you have to have that in mind. You can't teach a Vinyasa class and expect all bodies to do it. So if I say that, I really have to hold myself accountable and the community accountable for that. That's in my teachers too, when I hire people, I'm very clear. I talk about the mission of the studio first. This is who we are. This is who we're accessible to. We treat everybody with respect and we're looking for people that might not necessarily come to yoga. We're looking to heal those communities particularly.

06:49                                     These teachers that you're interviewing, do they feel comfortable that they have the knowledge to teach people who don't look like other yoga teachers?

07:05                                     I've sought out ones that I've either taken their class or I have familiarity with.

07:13                                     You really have a commitment there. I see that you don't sell high end yoga clothes, but that you do offer larger sizes. Is that another way to make people feel comfortable and welcome?

07:31                                     I think that's really important. I think a lot of yoga studios, they'll say, yeah, I work for everybody. And then you go into their boutique and you can't get larger than a size large. Some people can't fit into that and that's okay. But to not carry it is sending a message that that's not who we want here. And I know that's not for everybody. And that's not maybe people's intentions. Because I certainly have wonderful friends that have amazing boutiques that are yoga teachers and yoga studio owners. But I do think we really have to be careful of that and calling it.

                                                So here's my other thing that I wonder what people think about this is like in terms of accessibility. Yoga studios have like a class that's called the community class. That what's where they have would maybe offer it for $10 saying that's the community class for everybody. I struggle with that because why would you want that sort of communication that you're separating people out in some way. Is that the class for people that can afford it, the $10 or is it dumb? Dumb down sounds bad. But is it a different type of yoga? Like what is the community class that we're offering and how is that different? Is it just the price? And if it's just the price, why are we calling it a community class. Isn't every class with the community. I just wrestle with some of this stuff. I don't offer a quote community class.

                                                 I make  it accessible to everyone. Then I do get push back from people a lot about like when you're running a business, you can't offer every class for people that can't afford it and Dah, Dah, Dah, which I totally get. However, if that's your mission, then you need to stand by it. I do lots of other things on the side to support the business so that I can offer affordable packages to people and I also say nobody's turned away. So there are scholarships available. I do partner with a non-profit in Boston - Namaste Sober - and so they help with some of the things as well. So I feel like you can run a business and still be accessible, but you have to really work with the money in terms of holding your own self accountable as a studio owner to make sure that you really keep your doors open to everybody. It's hard. I totally understand. I get it. It's hard. Yeah.

09:53                                     I talked to someone else about that and he said that the big studios and the big franchisees and the worldwide ones all across the US, they really aren't very interested in being accessible because it's not financially rewarding.

10:14                                     Right, right. Yeah.

10:16                                     So are we saying that it's really the small business owner that's going to be the one that may most likely be offering these kinds of classes?

10:28                                     I don't know. I'd love to not think that because I mean, it's hard. People say different things to me all the time, but you can make a lot of money and still be accessible and be community based at the same time. There is a way, but you have to be really strategic about what that looks like. You have to have it on paper and you have to market it and you have to hold yourself accountable as the leader. So I'd like to think not. But right now I think that's probably what's happening. Money is a tricky thing. They start small and they're like, yes, this is who we are. We're grass roots, right? And then they get bigger with money and values start to change. So there's a lot of attachment with money in terms of what that means and who you are. I do a lot of work around that, about staying grounded. It's all the yoga stuff, staying grounded and then who I am while building something that's still accessible to people. But you have to keep that in the forefront. If you don't, then you lose the whole purpose of what you're doing. So, yeah.

11:38                                     You said you have to work hard and you have to be creative. If someone came to you and said, I want to start a studio and I want it to be really accessible, what kind of advice would you give them?

11:52                                     One is just cultivating relationships with communities of color. I have a bunch of friends who ask me this all the time. What am I going to do? All the only people around me are white people and I don't know how to bridge that gap. There are ways to really cultivate that. This sounds crazy, but I just opened my studio and I went across the street to Stop and Shop and talked to the manager. There's a lot of employees there who are young people and people of color. There's a large economic development there that has a huge amount of people of color who work there. I offered a discount to their employees and that was a huge benefit for all of us. I'm across the street and come on over. I mean that's a creative way to really do it. You wouldn't necessarily think of like, Oh, let me partner with Stop and Shop as a studio of yoga. But I was like, wait a second. My friend actually came, she was visiting from Boston and she had that idea and was like, how about that? And I was like, oh, totally and so just starting to think of ways.

                                                People bring up churches and churches are great. I go to the NAACP meetings on Cape Cod. I didn't know there was one, but as I was researching people in Cape Cod and where the demographics were. That's a lot of work there and just getting creative and then going to those meetings and then joining groups. There's lots of networking groups out there that are more predominant than others for people of color or diversity.

                                                It's also really about hiring staff. People of color are going to go where there's leadership; hiring staff that are people of color and also diversity. I did workshops co-led by gay, lesbian; all the people that are representing diversity, making sure that they're a part of the community in a leadership way. Sort of how you look at racism and the anti-racism work. But it's a similar model in terms of looking at the paradigm and really working with it so that you shift who's allowed to come in your doors by what you represent.

                                                The other thing in terms of clothing, so if you're a guy and you walk into these yoga studios and you're looking at these like pants and stuff clearly catered towards women. There's a tiny section for men and I get it. It's just about thinking about who your studio is tailored to. So my studio, if you look at it, it's pretty general literal. You wouldn't pick out necessarily one gender or the other. It's very simple stuff.

                                                And a lot of people that I work with  - a lot of veterans, a lot of people have PTSD and trauma. I work with people who just come out of jails and that community. So if we want those people to really access yoga, what would be welcoming to you when you come out of those environments? You're not something super flashy, something super warm, but not gender specific. Those are the things I've been thinking about in terms of getting creative with being accessible. And then just wiping out the community class, and saying we're community based, and figuring out other ways to offer services at a lower rate to people that couldn't afford it. Having larger sizes are XXXXL.

16:12                                     You said you partner with a non-profit to provide scholarship money for people to take classes who may not be able to afford very much. How's that working? Is that sufficient for what you need or do you think it's a good start?

16:41                                     It's a good start. I had two women the other day, single moms that were struggling and wanted to do (yoga). So I offer a life coaching program too, which is the mindfulness program and people can take the fitness classes and movement classes while they're in the coaching program. They really wanted to do the coaching but couldn't afford it. I reached out to them (non-profit) and just said, hey, listen, I have two women who want to do the specialized program. And so we just communicate about what the needs are. How can we help each other out? What can I do, what can they do? We're able to offer stuff. I can still offer it and as a business owner, not have to lose all the general money going to somewhere else. it's a good start. But I still have to get creative about bringing in money in other ways to not have to jack up prices so high to still make it accessible. But yeah, it's a good start. It's a wonderful idea. I think it's hard being a business versus a non-profit. You're still offering services and good things to people, but the business model works for me right now. Partnering is great.

17:52                                     Have you considered partnering with like the Big Companies? I mean I understand that perhaps you don't want to do Lululemon. Someone said they were thinking about that and I just wondered if that's a viable thing.

18:12                                     I don't know. It is tricky for me. Their mission really has to be on point. The people that I partner with now, their, their admission is 100%. So it's hard with larger companies but it's something to think about for sure.

18:39                                     You said that you're recovering and I know that you are offering Y12SR and I had Nikki on earlier. I thought it would be interesting because she told me what she does and why she started and everything. And I thought it would be just interesting to see how, how you do it at your studio from the grassroots. Getting both ends of the spectrum of that because she was great. But I just wondered how it was working for you and your studio.

19:28                                     Yeah. So she first of all is like my favorite person of all time. When I took her training, it was just a weekend, but I literally could have taken way more from her. In some ways I learned more from that training than I did from my 200 hour yoga teacher training. And that's saying a lot. She actually helped a lot in terms of offering and making yoga accessible to everybody. The way she teaches and describes things in a simple way, but it's still, you still get so much out of it, even though it's so simple. I just learned a lot from that. I just implemented one day a week where I did like a Sunday afternoon class and just make it for anybody that's either in recovery or has a loved one in recovery. I almost do it restorative style. So we do like an open meeting and I pick a topic or someone picks a topic and we share and then I do a really gentle flow and end with a few restorative poses and try to verbalize some of the issues that had come up in the meeting and integrate the healing into it. And I've had probably more people that have loved ones in recovery than are actually in recovery. A few of my friends have come. But it's a wonderful, wonderful class and I love it. .

20:57                                     And it does add to your accessible mission, I would think.

21:01                                     Oh totally. She's an incredible individual.

21:06                                     Yes, she is.

21:07                                     Everyone should take her course, everybody. Everyone needs to really take it.

21:16                                     Gee, she got a free ad there.

21:17                                     That's right.

21:24                                     To make sure I'm understanding - you've got a really strong mission, you're really committed to keeping that mission front and center. That's affecting prices, affecting who you hire, it's affecting who you try to attract. Is there anything else that you think is contributing?

21:58                                     What we haven't hit on is that it's just really important to, when you say that you're having a community it's really that you're drawing in members of any community. You'll see in the studio versus other studios, you'll see diversity in there. So in order to create a community, I really sort of had to cultivate it. So I have a lot of potlucks and book clubs and social gatherings and we're implementing a whole first Friday night that's going to be without alcohol. It's cultivating, reaching out to people. Lots of like dancing hip hop, like different types of music that you're not necessarily going to get into an actual class And I know some people push back on me, they're like, well, it's not real yoga if you're playing like different music, and do hip hop, which is very silly.

                                                No, I get that. Why people are saying that because it's not traditional. However I think part of it, of what people oh, this is what I wanted to say too about being accessible. White cultures are very in yoga studios. It's like if you walk in there and you feel like you can't be loud, you can't talk, you can't laugh. It's very structured in the way where there's not a lot of vocal boisterous talking and lots of cultures and people of color are just naturally that way. I've heard that people have gone into spaces like that and feel like they've gotten like shunned, like shhh, like stop it and they're like, I'm just talking. so to allow that to be okay. So I allow some banter in the actual class. I allow laughter, I create moments where there's laughter, but then I'm really conscious about the times where we need to be quiet and really settle in. But to not have it so serious in a way where you feel like you don't belong if you don't fit that mold. If you're not a meditator that is can you sit there for long periods of time without, moving around or things like that. I'm just so really being aware of what community looks like. We all don't look the same. We all don't act the same. So being conscious of that, like what community really actually looks like and then just making sure that you're cultivating everybody's place.

24:41                                     No, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that, It is very structured and often very serious in yoga studios and I kind of will always want to do something that'll liven it up, but I refrain. They're all just serious and you're thinking, oh, come on,

25:10                                     We can breathe and smile, Instruction too, which is great, but it's like sometimes it's taught in a way where you feel like you're doing it wrong. If the person comes over and aligns you a certain way. There are just so many descriptions and how you're supposed to hold your body. there's not room for fluidity there. There's room for conformity and there's room for doing things the same way. And there's room for looking like somebody else. And that's not what we're talking about when I talk about yoga. It's really about cultivating the person, their own spirit, their own movement, and everybody's looks different. so it's hard when I hear yoga teachers over and over again, like they'll see somebody not look necessarily the pose is supposed to look and then keep describing it over and over again. And I'm like, it's okay. It's all right.

26:08                                     Yeah, I've worked with seniors and after you've lived in a body for decades, it's very different from the body that's next to you. And so you get into your own body, right?

26:21                                     And larger bodies look different and poses and that's hard if you're not trained on that. So sometimes yoga teachers will go over and try to fix and shift and I'm like, nope. Because they're fine. Just the way they are.. And most 99.9 % of the time, larger bodies are strong and they don't necessarily need manipulating or props or chairs or any of that. It's really more a comfort level on their part to just do what works for them and then just getting them used to that. That's all.

26:53                                     So we didn't really talk too much about that. I think you did allude to it, but are you teaching differently  and addressing people who have not the typical yoga teacher body. I've talked to people who are teaching and who have a larger body. And they said so often, teachers didn't know what to do.

27:30                                     Right. Yeah. And then looked at people funny. Like it's very clear when the yoga teacher doesn't know what to do with the larger body, unfortunately. Like I get it. But then it gets this awkward moment in class for both of them. That's it. I mean, I'm lucky in the way that I'm trained in like 15 different fitness modalities. Yoga is just one of them. I've taught a variety of different dance, all kinds of stuff, aqua aerobics, with a variety of different bodies. Aqua aerobics lends to a larger body, Zumba lends to a larger body. Some people think that but so it's easier for me to kind of assess and work with that. But I also have done a lot of research and taken a lot of courses on that as well, just to make sure that I'm supporting that. And honestly, most of it is just not doing such intense Vinyasas not going up and down all the time. And if you are, modifying in a way where then you're up, you're on your knees. There's different ways where it's not this intense. You can still offer a power yoga class: a larger body, should be able to take it.

28:56                                     Well, that's good to know. Yeah. I don't offer power classes to seniors. I don't think I want to take it either. I would like to do is to either talk in more depth about something we discussed or to actually introduce a new topic that you think is important for the listeners to know around this general podcast topic that we've been talking about.

29:34                                     I think just what I love to share with people is that like the reason I started my studio and the coaching that I do is just the powerfulness of mindfulness alone and movement. But that breath and connecting the mind, the body and spirit just for people that are not familiar with yoga it's just such a powerful healing tool that I feel like gets missed if we don't.

                                                I love your whole thing of like changing the face of the yoga. Like if, if we're not getting that out to the people that aren't used to that and don't know that is out there as a healing tool. I just think it's so important for people, for yoga studios, and whoever, just to make that available to those people. And I think it's really hard for men or the veterans that I have met. I get the Veterans through my coaching program which gets them into the studio. But otherwise I'm not sure that they would be walking in just off the street but is so healing for trauma for women with domestic violence, all that. I feel like it's just the key to shifting your life in a positive direction that might not come in another way. So I'm also a licensed independent clinical social worker. So I did that for years and years. I did traditional therapy. I worked in schools in a variety of different ways. and I wasn't finding that talk therapy was helpful anymore. so that's why I integrated the movement into the actual healing process, so that people could discover a different way of healing the mind, the body and spirit as one. So I just wanted to share that.

31:23                                     Thank you..

32:20                                     I have a podcast. Sometimes I forget to mention it's called Fit Phat Chat and I do with my friend Christie. She's also a Zumba instructor. But we just started that to talk about just making movement in general, accessible for everybody. So that'd be a great for your listeners .

32:41                                     What's it called again?

32:43                Its Fit Phat Chat: it's on Spotify, it's on apple. All of the places.

                                                Well thank you so much. It was great fun talking to you.

33:14                                     Thanks for asking a really important topic and.

33:19                                     I think this is a good addition to the general accessible conversation.

Contacts:

Email: [email protected]

Website: www.Bfreewell.com.

Facebook: befreecoachingandwellness

Podcast: Fit Phat Chat

Major Points:

1. With yoga and proper nutrition, the aging body and mind can feel better, younger, and live a vibrant life.
2. Menopausal women can also accrue benefits from yoga and proper diet  through a variety of mechanisms but decreasing inflammation is one of the major benefits.
3. Baby boomers do not accept the aging model of their parents

00:45                                     This is the 120th episode of Changing the Face of Yoga and my guest today is Anne Noonan.  She is a Silver Yogi and a food coach and she specializes in showing women how to age backwards with Yoga and mindfulness. She has a passion for showing the woman facing her second half of life that these years can be full of vitality rather than ill health or frailty. After going through her own health journey of insulin resistance, adrenal fatigue and varied menopausal symptoms in her forties and found a way to holistically turn back her inner odometer and is now thriving in her 60th year and looking and feeling younger than she did 15 years ago. She not only turned those health issues around but has transformed in the process. She now teaches women facing similar health and aging issues that through mindful, functional yoga-based movement, breath. and eating for health, you can most certainly find your strength, flexibility, and youthfulness. Welcome Anne

02:01                                     Thank you, Stephanie. Fantastic to be here. Look, everything you just said is pretty much a perfect summary of where I've come from. I did experience pretty serious health issues and I had to find my way, so to speak, through the quagmire. I had to find a direction that wasn't completely medical and it was stumbling across yoga. It was learning to eat for an aging body. And then combine it with the right movement for an aging body. And once I could see the results happening for me, it was like a calling. I absolutely have to teach this to other men and women who are facing those later years. So you're pretty right. You summarized that really well.

02:56                                     Okay. I think we should start off what you made a statement which I thought was interesting, which was we're aging very differently to the way our parents aged. Can you kind of explain that and what new things we might be dealing with that perhaps our parents didn't or vice versa?

03:22                                     We women, let's say we are, I'm 60 so I'm a typical baby boomer and I would hope maybe don't you know them, maybe people who are listening to this might also be in those baby boomer years. So we're the people who were born between 1946 up to 1964 and we have all had parents who may have come from the war years. Our parents are now, if they're still with us, they're now pretty much in their early eighties through to about 90 and just over 90. And in that era they aged very differently. They had different things occur in their life. They had different stresses. They had a different mindset towards aging. So by the time our mothers, us Boomer women, by the time our mothers were say 50 or 55, they were planning retirement or they were considered over the hill, sliding down the other side and starting to think and move their way into old age.

04:30                                     I'm not going to say that absolutely every single, elderly mother back in those days, there's some who aren't, who are an exception to the rule. But generally they did have a different attitude to aging. Now we are the daughters and we are the children of those elders, the silent generation.  And we have so much more technology at our fingertips. There's so much now about nutrition. There's so much extra knowledge and things that are right there on a silver platter for us to choose from. And as far as media is concerned that the way the world has changed, there was an expectation, there's a big expectation on us to keep working, to remain employable, to continue giving and contributing to the community around us. So we cannot afford at the age of 50 or 55 to slide downhill into age. It's just can't be.  As baby boomers age, we don't want to age like our mothers. We don't want to have the mindset - some might be a little bit thinking a little differently - but generally we want to stay healthy. We want to stay vibrant and God help us, we're pretty vain. We want to look darn good too. So there is a different attitude. So there must definitely be a lot of new things available for us.

06:07                                     So really we have many more opportunities or we're making many more. I sometimes think we're making more opportunities because we do not accept that previous model of aging. At least most of us don't. I don't think.

06:23                                     You're pretty right, Stephanie. We are refusing to accept it. And I'm noticing it, in like general media, if we look at the celebrities, for instance, some celebrity may not make the remotest difference to us, but even in Hollywood, Judy Dench and Helen Mirren and Meryl Streep's roles, these older women, Glenn Close, these older women starting to really lift their profiles. I guess if there's any filtering out from what's happening in the world of celebrity, it's wonderful to see the older woman is starting to become lifted, starting to become a little bit more noticeable. And I'll tell you what, the older woman still has incredible knowledge, experience. She's got goals to kick still. She's got such contribution to the world that the rest of the world and the media would, at their own peril, ignore the older woman because I think she is stepping up. And someone said, I can't remember what some entrepreneur said a while ago, it's the older woman who is going to soon be the disruptor. She will be the business disruptor. She's the decision maker. She is the one with money and she is the one whose health needs to be careful. Seriously.

07:50                                     Yes. I think I agree. I think we have perhaps a position of power that is not recognized yet but is still there. And I think probably it is that we have a deep (okay, I'm talking about myself obviously) but a contentment that perhaps we haven't had before. I mean we went to school, we raised children, we had our careers, we did all of that stuff and now it seems to be a time of, as someone said, we're done with the biological and we're looking towards the existential.

08:27                                     Yeah, that's such a good way to put it, isn't it? That's so good. And we are looking to the future now we're ready. It's our time now. You're right. We raised our kids, but then again, we might've raised our kids, but we're possibly dealing with a spouse who might not have the same attitude as us. We may be dealing with a spouse whose health is changing. Some are divorced. Dealing with elderly parents still. So there's probably still a little bit of that stress on us. And of course a lot of us are dealing with the diagnoses that come with middle to older years. We've got barriers, maybe autoimmune, different things that might've popped up that we might not be too pleased with that we might have to deal with but doesn't matter. We've still got a lot of years that this body has to serve us in and we definitely want to know that those years are going to be vibrant.

09:26                                     There was a show on TV last night: Catalyst. It was good about aging, stopping the aging process or aging backwards. And one of the doctors said we don't want our later years to be a long, slow, degenerative downhill process. We want those later years to be so fruitful and vibrant so that when our last year's come they're quick and they're done. So we want them to go right up to those last years really being vibrant. I have found eating the right way was emphasised in the show. They really went down into diet and the way you moved and the variety of yoga combined with the way you eat is just that perfect combination to make that possible.

10:22                                     Let's talk a little bit about that. I think you said in what you gave me, that the aging body requires balance, agility, flexibility, hormonal balance, calm strength and cardio and all of these are possible with yoga. I taught seniors for 10 years, so I do have some experience in this area and yes, all of that is possible, but I think it has to be managed correctly because not everybody can do everything.

10:57                                     That's right.  In my classes, my classes might range from a 45 year olds all the way up to about anywhere between 75, 76 year olds. And I then do a special functional movement class for the 80 plus up to about 90 plus. So if we talk about that age group, 80 plus up to just over 90 year olds and admittedly they are very limited with what they can do. So we work from the chair, we make it gentle, we keep the stretch, we did the left and right brain cooperating with each other. We don't go into any strong agility or cardio. Sometimes getting up and out of the chair is enough for them. And I know I can kind of puff them out after about 30 minutes. So we're very mindful with that age group.

11:53                                     My general yoga class between 45 and 75, there is a dramatic range of ability amongst those girls. It all depends on what their younger years did deliver to them, what state their body is in. And it's such a variety amongst that age group. So we're careful, again, careful and mindful as to what level might individual students want to go to. But we concentrate specifically on balance first and foremost, balance agility and getting the muscles stretched. So as soon as they feel release in the body, as soon as they are releasing the tension around the hips and hip flexors and the hamstrings and sometimes the upper body and shoulders, as soon as that feels a little released, then we can start coming up into building strength. And when it comes to cardio, again, I truly believe the older person really does need to bring cardio and a little bit of high, medium to high intensity interval training to keep their heart healthy and vibrant.

13:08                                     And Yoga will offer a reasonable intensity in very short spurts depending on if their body's responding well to it. So I'm finding with the different programs I do that we can bring agility, flexibility and balance or not only the body but also the mind. Once the body can find balance. So too does the mind, because we can become even with age, even mindfully. That's why it's such a mindful practice. As we age, we can start to become a little bit,  the word irrational is not the right word but lose a little bit  of our balance. We can sometimes become a bit more reactive rather than really think it out and respond to things calmly. That's why yoga is so good because it will train the mind to think, breathe before we respond and then respond to our situations mindfully, which creates balance in the brain.

14:16                                     Then when you train that attitude with balancing the body on your one legged poses, some the various things we do to train balance. You've got this lovely mind to body connection happening and it's perfect and I see bodies improving all the time. In my older age group of students, I am seeing such fabulous results. They're calmer. They can feel their minds are sharper, their bodies released and then when they start to improve then we start to liven the class up a little bit with a little bit of high intensity. They sometimes think I'm half killing them. I'm not, but they feel fabulous after the class.

15:03                                     What exactly do you mean by high intensity? I mean, what would that look like in a yoga class?

15:11                                     Well, what that looks like. For instance, when you bring high intensity into Yoga,, you only kind of bring it in for a very few short minutes. So let's say you're in downward dog. I call, it's like a burpee version of a downward dog in downward dog. We then start to come up on the toes, bend the knees slightly, and we encourage the little jumping. Now young people will jump in and out of downward dog quite easily. 50 plus doesn't find that as easy. So we bend the knees slightly, jump forward to the hands, gently come up, reverse down, come on up and then back down. Jump back into downward dog. Now we can liven that up a little further. Jump forward from downward dog. Gently jump a little bounce up into reverse swan dive, back on down again, jump back into downward dog. Let's say we do six of those. That starts to get the heart rate pumped.

16:12                                     Now we can do chair pose. Let's say coming back into chair pose comes back, you've got that nice deep squat. The arms come forward. Normally we would hold in chair pose, but to make chair pose a little high intensity we then swing the arms down, come up, jump, a little bounce up and then bounce back into chair pose. Swing the hands back down again, swing forward, jump up. Little chair pose, little yoga moves with a bounce. So, and that starts to just lift and of course different level of intensity depending on who's in the room. And that not only tones the body, it helps with weight loss, it lifts the cardio, and it's quite incredible. I specialize too in teaching water yoga. So not water aerobics, not water fitness, not water running, water Yoga. So once we're in the water again, yoga based move in the water, you're coming to your warriors, you come into all of these moves. But then swinging the arms through into chair pose and back again through the water also creates that little bit of resistance against the muscles.

17:28                                     And it starts to build the heart rate up. We do a little bit of yoga walk through the water. So moving the spine, moving the hips, moving the arms, and then we speed up a little and it's amazing how the water resistance makes the heart work. But I'm a great believer too in making it fun. We have to heal the body and healing the body is also very relevant to laughing and we've got to laugh and I make sure it's fun. I caught up with about 12 of my students this morning, just before this podcast and they were saying that we can't wait for water yoga season to start again. Because it's some of the heartiest laughs they ever get is at water yoga. I know they when get out of the pool,  they are feeling good and that's such a reward for me. It's great.

18:17                                     It's great. You've also added some nutritional advice to what you're doing with your reversing the odometer idea. Do you feel that it has some Ayurvedic basis or is it more of naturopath, dietitian kind of thing?

18:43                                     I'm a qualified nutrition coach so it's more nutritional to mop up the inflammation. I know Ayurvedic is a wonderful way to eat. I didn't go the Ayurvedic route. I went the nutrition coaching route. So because I'm also dealing with 40 plus 50 class and beyond woman when we are at this age, we're holding more inflammation as the years have gone by. We hold a lot of inflammation and that's what we have to deal with is reducing the inflammation. First off that's why I love yoga so much because yoga is instrumental in helping the inflammation, mind body, inflammation to settle. But particularly nutritionally I run the roll back your body's odometer course. I run a five week transformation course and I speak and show how to cook and such with a very antiinflammatory approach to your food. I'm also a qualified diabetes food advisor.

19:51                                     So I teach people how to bring their sugar levels down, how to eliminate sugar from their diet, but not rob yourself of beautiful tasting food. How to bring high level macro and micro nutrition into the way you eat and mop up the inflammation. It's not a magic bullet. It's a slow process. If we've got our body into such a state at say 55 or 60, it's taken years to get our body into whatever state we might be unhappy with now. So it's kind of take a few weeks, maybe a few months, up to a year or more to really get that body into the state you want it in by changing a few habits with eating. So I'll teach people how to if they want. If a woman is a wonderful baker and she loves her cakes and her slices and she's been baking all her life. Well, we show them how to tweak up the baking.

20:53                                     Let's take the white flour and the white sugar out and find something else to substitute in the baking so that you can still enjoy your baked goods. Let's say a woman's an amazing cook. We work out the correct, the better quality fats, the better quality vegetables to bring into your cooking to bring the weight down, bring the inflammation down, which in turn makes the body feels so much better, clarifies the brain, sharpens the thinking and makes the joints start to feel less painful. Brings inflammation down everywhere through the body. So the combination of the right way to move, the right way to eat and calming the mind and uniting the body and brain together, body and mind together is in my opinion, the best way to reverse aging. And I'm all about reversing aging or aging as well as possible throughout these years. I am passionate about it.

22:00                                     You say that Yoga helps in reducing inflammation. Could you expand on that a little?

22:07                                     I can pretty much go by my own personal experience. I'm 60 now. Back when I was 47 I had to face a hysterectomy. I was just in a terrible state. My menopausal symptoms were through the roof. My weight was through the roof. I was aching everywhere, everywhere. And these symptoms started in my very, very early forties and that decade was hideously painful and coming into my early fifties, I had to figure out what did I have to do to make this body of mine feel better, deal with stress levels, deal with the way I deal with the pain and age better. And of course I knew, always knew exercise was important. So I went to, I had no idea of yoga back then, just had heard of it as this weird practice as you do, some wacky practice.

23:05                                     Somebody said Yoga, I forgot about it and thought, well I need a PT. I need to become part of a gym. That's probably what I need to do. So I was doing the circuits. I was powering along. I had a PT who would thrash me the moment I would turn up. Anne, on the field, round you go, do a few laps of the field and come back and we're going to do our calisthenics and such. What was happening to me was my inflammation was worsening. It was just worsening. My body shape wasn't changing, I wasn't losing weight. I wasn't feeling better. My inflammation was ramping up and I don't think this PT realized quite what she was doing. She was looking at me thinking, well, why isn't your body changing? Why aren't you changing the way you're eating? What's going on? And I didn't realize back then about what I was doing, how I was eating and the whole combination of what was going on with me. I was worsening and I was putting on weight even though I was thrashing myself at the gym. I soon realized sometimes that a vigorous form of exercise does not do an inflamed, midlife body any good at all. It can send you downhill. This is what was going on with me.

24:24                                     Okay, maybe I'll just stick to walking. Maybe that's what I need. I'll Just stick to walking. So off I go and I start walking every morning. My husband's really good. He'll get up with me, come walking with me. But what was happening was my knees were getting worse. My hips were tightening up, even walking is not doing me any good and I'm not losing weight again. Wasn't right. Someone said to me then try yoga. Yoga, what's Yoga? Oh look, I have nothing to lose. Okay, fine. I'll try yoga. And of course this overweight, achy, inflamed body walked into my very first yoga studio, but at this stage I was over 50. So what do I do? I walk into a Bikram Yoga class and there's even the instructor looked at me like Are you sure? "This is my first time at yoga."

25:29                                     She said, "You've never done Yoga before?" Nope. Never done yoga before. I might've followed a DVD a hundred years ago. I don't know. I've never done that before. "Have you ever done hot yoga before?" Never done hot yoga before, but of course everyone's around me going, oh it's addictive, you're going to love it. And she goes how about you stand behind that lady over there and you just watch what she's doing and just follow everything she's doing. Mind you that lady over there was a bodybuilder and powerlifter. Her body was just exquisite. And here's me at the stage when I'm thinking, I am such an unhealthy lump. I thought I was about to die in that class. So I made it through and got out and of course the instructor comes to me "Are you alright? Yeah, I think I'll be okay. Well, I went back for a second class. I realized I had to hydrate phenomenally. I didn't do Bikram again, but just those two classes of Bikram then led me into a slightly more sane temperature, more yin, and the more gentle yoga and such. My body was changing. Even after those two classes, there was a level of release. There was my knees. I just felt, oh my God, what's happened here? Something shifted, like dramatically shifted because I knew how good I felt afterwards, but okay. All right. All right. I'm going to try. I went to my local yoga studio just down the road from me. I thought, oh, I'll try a few classes there and I had this almost addicted. I have found my nirvana. I have found what my body has been screaming for all these years. It wasn't high level training, it wasn't a PT, it wasn't thrashing myself out at a gym.

27:27                                     It was yoga, so my body was calming. That was step one, calming. My breath - I learned how to breathe, which did wonders for my heart and my mindset. My joints started to feel like the inflammation was reducing. My weight started to behave and reduce, my strength, particularly upper body. The moment a woman feels her strength boost, the moment a woman feels stronger, her competence goes through the roof. And the moment I felt my strength build, I could see my core was strengthening, my clothes started to look better, even my skin, because I  tried a few more warm classes and more. I did go into the hot yoga a little bit, not as hot as Bikram, and then the next level of hot, my skin just started to glow. So considering an inflamed body was showing all of these levels of improvement.

28:32                                     I could say Dear God, if Yoga is doing this 50 class body, this amount of good, and I'm surrounded by women complaining about how their menopause is just making them feel dreadful, then this must be the perfect combination for many, many, many, many other women out there. And it's proven to be exactly that. So I had to go to a few yoga classes, obviously myself and really feel the difference. Then I thought, right, I have to get my certification in it. So I went and studied and got all my titles and my training done and even while I was doing all of that, I was just purely using my own body as a petri dish. I had to watch and observe what I was going through and that was great that I was in a class with a few other older women as well and I watched how their bodies were responding to it.

29:25                                     It's now I'm learning with all the material I have read and I've been a teacher now from when I was about 52 or 53 when I qualified now I am 60. With all the material I've read now I'm finding doctors are prescribing yoga for the menopausal woman and for the older age men and woman. Yoga is becoming more and more and more recognized in mainstream western medicine. It's been recognized in eastern medicine forever. With Western medicine, they are really starting to wake up to the power of yoga, and because it still can be strong. I can still be a workout or it can be gentle. That's what I love for that reason.

30:08                                     I love the diversity of it. You can have almost any kind of class you'd want. I don't expect you to have the answer to this, but I would like your opinion. I was not having health problems when I started yoga, but I did start in my early fifties, and I also recognized the tremendous benefits. But what you see in the media is not the older woman taking perhaps a more gentle class or at least not as strong a class as might be available. And how do we get that message out that this is for everyone. This is for older women, menopausal women. You know, you're teaching people up to 90. I've done that too. I've taught 90 year olds and they're great fun actually. How do we get that message out that it's not pretzel poses, it's not having to be flexible to start with. It's not all of those things.

31:16                                     You are so right Stephanie, that irks me too. I see Instagram, people think yoga is about gorgeous young bodies in beautiful gear, moving their bodies into the most unnatural pretzel shapes that the older woman does get a little terrified of it. That's probably why I took so long to do yoga cause any googling I did was, oh, these beautiful young things flipped upside down and ridiculous shapes. I've had many a conversation with the older woman, a couple of which, oh, I'm not flexible. Oh No, I couldn't, I'm not flexible. I could never do that. Oh, I can't get up off the floor. I could never do yoga or Oh no, that looks too hard. I'm not 25 anymore. I don't want to wear yoga pants. I could never do yoga. That is such close minded attitude. That was probably my own as well when I was first looking.

32:17                                     So I make sure I bring myself into pretty normal yoga poses. I can't even do the pretzley stuff and I'll make sure I put photographs of myself and my students on Facebook, on Insta. We need more older women like us, Stephanie. We need more of the older teachers, all the yoga students getting on social media and showing not only is yoga wonderful for the older body, but it's also to show the young girls. Look young girls you will be great if you continue with your yoga at this young age. You also age well someone, some Yoga Guru said a while ago, yoga is a the fountain of youth. I totally believe it's the fountain of youth simply because it makes your body feel so good. So we have to get more older women out there not being afraid and putting their images at it so that people can say yoga is phenomenal.

33:22                                     I have one of the best books in the world at the moment written by Suza Francina . And she wrote The New Yoga for people over 50 so if your listeners are interested in these books, The New Yoga for people over 50 and The New Yoga for Healthy Aging by Suza Francina. They are the most fabulous books about getting yoga out to the older community. And she used 70 plus year old and 80 plus year old models in her book and they look incredible. So the moment we start saying 70 plus and 80 plus year old gorgeous models in their yoga gear doing their yoga poses, that will be what the world needs to see. So I want to get more of that out there. I see that, what's that lady's name, she's 101 years old. Yeah, she's that good. She's inspirational. That's inspirational.

34:34                                     And I hadn't really thought about that. But you're right, we just need to get our own photos out there of us and our students.

34:45                                     And we social media driven, we are image driven, we are video driven. So the only way to really get it out there is to join the social media. We can't keep this to ourselves. We've got to put it out there. The baby boomer woman is one of the biggest demographics on Facebook. We have to let these images be seen so that older women can go, oh, if it has done that for her. I'm sure I could do it.

35:22                                     We've had a lovely talk. Is there anything that you would like to go into in more depth or that we haven't covered at all that you think you would like to tell the listener?

35:39                                     I'm very grateful Stephanie. I think we've  had a fantastic chat. As you can probably tell. I can go on for hours probably. I guess by the time the listeners are hearing this, by all means head to my website: annenoonan.com. au. I'm starting water yoga classes, so you've never tried a water yoga class. And if you're in this region, by all means yell out. in October as well, we'll be ticking off our Rollback the body's odometer eight week program. And I'll have that on my website as well. We do have an odometer and we can roll it back. And this is what we teach everything from nutrition to gut health to attitude, to mindset, to yoga, meditation, anti-inflammatory eating. It's a very comprehensive program and we create community as well. And that's the other really important part about aging well is having a like-minded community around you. And we're growing all the time. Quite wonderful. That's probably about all I can think of to add to that.

36:49                                     Contact details:

                                                 Facebook: AnneNoonanYogi

                                                Instagram: anneNoonan01

                                                Website: www.annenewnan.com.au.

                                                Thank you so much and it was a fun and informative podcast and I love your passion about your subject.

37:32                                     Oh, absolutely. Absolutely passionate about the woman or man for that matter facing the second half of life who thinks they're on their downhill side and they think all is lost and they can't change anything. You absolutely can. You absolutely can turn things around without a doubt.

37:51                                     Thanks so much.

37:53                                     Lovely talking to you Stephanie

Major Points:

                                                32:03 Grief is a developmental and learning process not a healing process. Grief is not pathological; it is a normal part of life.

                                                35:22 But you don't need closure on a relationship of a person you love who you don't want to be done with.

                                                48:50 You don't have to believe in yoga for it to work, because Yoga believes in you.

00:45                                     This is episode 119 of Changing the Face of Yoga and my guest today is Karla Hilbert and Karla is a licensed professional counselor, a certified yoga therapist, a compassionate Bereavement Care Provider, certified divine sleep Yoga Nidra guide, an award winning author, and a bereaved mother. Her life was forever changed after her firstborn son died of a brain tumor in 2006. Her therapy practice focuses on loss, grief and bereavement working in particular with those affected by trauma and traumatic death. She leads classes, workshops and retreats for the bereaved as well as training for professionals on how to work with those impacted by traumatic grief. Her book, Yoga for Grief and Loss describes each of the branches of Yoga and how they are ideally suited to support those in grief. Her newest book, the Chakras in Grief and Trauma is the first book of its kind to explore the energy body and how it is impacted by trauma and grief. Both books have creative ways to bring yoga and mindfulness into a regular practice to support your broken heart and remember your essential hope. Welcome Carla. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that introduction?

02:42                                     Oh no, that's really long and, but really beautiful. Thank you so much. I so appreciate being here, Stephanie.

02:49                                     Thank you. I wanted to start by asking you in, one of the things that you said, was that there is a societal and medical model of grief and then there's yoga's model of grief. And so can we define the medical and social model and then the yoga model and compare and contrast so we can see what the differences are.

03:26                                     I don't remember saying that but the Western model of medical model in general of what we call mental health. I don't particularly like that label because what I really do and what the people who are therapists and who do this profession really are dealing with our emotional health as well, which doesn't really get talked about.. Our thinking, our thoughts about things are not the same as our feelings and our emotions. And I think it's really interesting that we don't even talk about emotional health. It's always about quote unquote mental health. but anyway, the Western medical model deals with disease, right? And when something goes wrong, when something has caused pain or is a disease or a problem, the medical model goes in and says, let's fix this problem, cut it out, or put chemicals on it or do something to fix this and then bandage it up, send somebody home and hope it gets better. They don't really look at the whole being.

                                                 I don't know about a social model of grief. I think so it's hard to kind of pull those things apart. Our society, again, Western society and there's so many different layers of how various cultures deal with grief and I don't really think any one culture is perfect. I think there's a whole lot of other cultures around the globe who do a better job than our culture does. And when I talk about our, I mean like the Western culture, America, Europe, Australia. So the Western model societally, and socially we are not very hospitable to grieving people. And it's interesting cause death itself is having a moment right now, which is not bad. That's good.

                                                I don't know if you've heard about the death cafes, which I believe started in England. Now they're all over the place and it's community-based things where people get together. There's a facilitator and it may or may not be supported by a community organization like a hospital or a hospice or it could just be a person. But you find the information about the death cafe and sort of the guidelines of how you run a conversation. And it can literally happen in a cafe or it might happen at somebody's house, but people sit around and drink coffee and eat some snacks and talk about death: planning our own deaths, what death must be like or how we deal with death. But that's not the same as grief.

                                                And grief is the experience that we have when something precious to us is gone. And that can be anything that we love. It tends to be a lot more impactful when it's a person who dies, but there's all sorts of losses that people deal with all the time.  But when people die, the grieving person, the bereaved person who's left behind has to deal with how to manage existence without this person in their lives like they were before as a living and breathing presence on the earth. It's different than death itself. It's a very difficult process and it varies individually. Grief is like a fingerprint really. We all have it at some point and it's completely, totally unique to us, but our society tends to be really unhelpful sometimes.

                                                I mean, we have groups of people who experienced what we call, marginalized grief, disenfranchised grief, where that grief isn't necessarily recognized by society. And there's lots of categories for that. But, that could be your ex-husband dies and you've separated and gone on with your lives . Maybe he's remarried. He has children with this other person and a whole life that doesn't include you, but yet you have this major grief response. It's not the same as his current wife might be experiencing. Miscarriages are one of these places. Stillborn babies often are this way that's not very recognized by society as intense grief.

                                                There's disenfranchised grief but when it's a socially sanctioned grief, everybody knows, of course she might be grieving. There's tends to be a lot of support. And then after the funeral, a few weeks, a few months, that support dwindles away and people expect the grieving person to go back to the person that they were before, which depending on, the grief itself, the relationship itself, whether or not there was trauma involved might be impossible to do. It usually is, and grief can go on for a long time and that, and it changes over and over. In fact, it really, truly never ends. It just changes and gets different. We learn, hopefully with good support, how to grow and develop through that process. But what happens is we tend to lose more people the longer that we live. So it's a thing that we're going to go through over and over and over. So we don't have a real good social model.

                                                And a lot of people really love to talk about the five stages of grief from Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who is an incredibly wonderful, beautiful pioneer in this field. But she herself even said that she wished that her five stages model hadn't been so broadly applied to grief. In fact, it was meant not for bereaved people in the first place, but for dying people. She revolutionized the hospice model, the hospice care field in general. She worked with terminally ill people and she noticed that they tended to go through these stages of denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. It makes more sense in the context of a terminally ill person than it does in terms of a bereaved person.

                                                So we don't have a very good social model for dealing with grief at all. And our medical model tends to want to pathologize grief in many ways, when in fact, grief is not pathological at all. It is a completely normal and natural response to a loss. Depending on whether trauma is overlaid, and the circumstances surrounding the death itself, and how intensely that person is grieving, how much they're functionally affected by their grief and their loss varies.

                                                The medical community might come and say, oh, hey, you need to medicate that. It's gonna lead to depression, which isn't true necessarily. Grief and depression are two totally different things, but I see a lot, as soon as there is a death, often people days after the event or maybe even the day of are given prescription medications, either antidepressants or antianxiety medication, usually Benzodiazepines, which is really dangerous often. We see often in society people supporting grieving people and avoiding the pain. I'll come over, bring a bottle of wine and we'll just drown those sorrows for a little while. So we don't have a real good supportive, nurturing kind of model at all in the Western model period.

11:37                                     So how would we contrast it with either your model or a more generic model of yoga helping with this issue?

11:48                                     I personally feel that yoga offers us so many tools to help us deal with grief and loss. And there's not really a specific yoga grief model that really exists. I mean what I've done is taken the yoga teachings and philosophies that are already existed and applied it in this way. This is one of the things I think is so beautiful about yoga, is that we can take these tools and yoga really is the life path. It isn't just asana, it is so many other things. The asana as poses are a tiny fraction of what yoga is. I mean in fact yoga itself, the word means union. So, Yog in Sanskrit, if we spell it the way the Sanskrit translates, it's y o g with a little dot that says we say yog and that means yolk and it's this yoking together of body, mind, spirit and then our yoking together with something larger than ourselves. And that for me and for my clients, and readers who read my book, this thing that's larger than yourself is individual as well. I mean maybe that thing might be God, it could be community, it could be the universe, it could be the planet. It's something else. The thing that we really can't do alone. We need something to connect us. And then again to the tools of yoga help us.

                                                Because I think it's crucial to continue to have a relationship with the people we love who have died. That's one of the things that I say is one of the most important tasks that we have to do is figure out how we have a relationship with somebody who's no longer physically here. And there's many tools in yoga that can help us to do that. All the branches of yoga have different tools that help us manage this. And a lot of my teachings when I work with people individually, really focus on not only different things from the various branches of Yoga, like Bhakti Yoga,  Jhana Yoga, Tantra yoga, Hatha Yoga, Raja Yoga. But in the Raja Yoga branch, the Yamas and Niyamas and it comes down to the first thing that's the most important is ahimsa, which is do no harm.

                                                And so this is also nonviolence, meaning with yourself. We start with ourselves. Iyengar said in his book, the Tree of Yoga, which is one of my favorite books where he talks about the branches of Yoga. And I see how essentially within all the limbs of yoga, each limb is within all the other limbs. So you can practice one limb and you're practicing the whole entire branches and all of the tree of yoga itself. But he says about ahimsa he says I don't know why everybody focuses on the violence in the world when we don't first look at the violence in ourselves. So I talk to people about self-care and self-compassion, which can be very difficult to do in early days of grief, in traumatic grief because people tend to not want to care about themselves. It's very difficult to care about themselves or to have compassion for yourself when you're in such a terrible state.

                                                But it is very important because, as I learned through my own research and I probably learned this in my initial teacher training but it really like hit me in a different way in all the research that I did. These things are in order. The limbs are in order. The yamas come first, and the first Yama is ahimsa. Everything else builds upon that. And so first you look at how much pain am I increasing for myself? What can I do right now in this moment to have compassion and care for myself? And that is the crux of my teaching with people, because sometimes that's just the very place to start. Which would be an awesome place too, for society to start.

                                                But I know what's happening is that people who are in grief and in pain, it's difficult for other people to witness that pain. And I know that most people want to genuinely help. But the fact is, is that you can't just take this away. And even there's times when I'm with somebody who's in intense pain and I wish I could ease that pain and I know I can't, but also that grief is there and they have this grief for a person because they love that person so deeply. A good friend of mine who I work with Joanne Cacciatori says, where there is extraordinary grief, there is extraordinary love. And it's true, and again, this is one reason I support people in using Bhakti practices, the path of devotion, which is all about love and all about the heart, connecting with the love they have for the people who have died. Because I've not met a person yet who would trade the love that they have for this deeply beloved person to be rid of the grief. I've not met that person. And so when we can remember that right now I'm in this kind of pain and grief because I love this person so much. It really can help to soften the pain. And it is also a mindfulness practice because it's asking the person to be present in their pain, have compassion for themselves in this pain and recognize that its existing right now because of this deep love, which is really beautiful. So when we cannot escape pain, what happens is we get really scared of the pain. People are afraid of the depths of this pain that they can be in and the depths that they can go to. And I totally understand that. When we can be present to that and have compassion for ourselves and say, okay, let me connect with the love I have for this person I'm missing so much right now. It can really help us to be present instead of run away from the pain like everybody wants to do. Nobody wants to be in pain. And then to say, okay, I can bear this because of this love that I have. It's a strength and it's weird. It's almost like the pain can soften. And then what you learn is that you have the capacity to be present with that.

                                                And every time you get through, I call them grief bursts, we go through these, like everything else in the universe, contraction and expansion. When we go and move into the winter time, when we move into that state, the earth moves into that state. It's contracting, and then it's going to expand again in the spring. Nothing lasts forever; no feeling. The poet Rilke said, no feeling is final. And that's true. No matter how much pain you're in right now, it's not going to stay like this. It's going to change. And if you allow yourself to be present and watch how that happens with compassion and as little judgment as possible, you can see it happen. And then what you learn is that you can trust yourself to move through these places of pain and then you come out of them. It's simple, but it's difficult, but it's kind of amazing. And all of that I learned from Yoga.

19:37                                     Some people will think they're helping by emphasizing positive thinking to bypass pain and that has a yoga link that would help in that particular instance. Because I have a lot of people say, oh no, I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm getting through this. It's okay. I'm not sure that helps a lot sometimes.

20:20                                     Well, I mean the person themselves is saying, oh no, I'm fine, I'm getting through this. It does depend on the context, where are you have somebody saying that and you're standing in the grocery store, it might not be the best place to say, oh no you can really tell me how you're really feeling. It depends on the context, and if the person themselves is saying, no, I'm fine, then maybe that's okay. I mean, cause we don't want to insinuate ourselves too much into somebody else's emotional place. I mean, that's another thing I talked to clients of mine about actually moving into the, the second Yama - Satya, (nonlying). So telling your truth, that follows ahimsa. And so again, this is the rule. Ahimsa comes first, do no harm or as little harm as possible, right? Nonviolence, it would do harm to you to start talking about your story right then or if you feel this is too sacred to share with somebody, then don't do it. You don't have to tell the truth all the time about how you're feeling. I mean, grieving people are approached a lot with questions that are very hard to answer and sometimes, how are you is one of them?

                                                After my son died, I took like two weeks off of work. It had been six months of him dying and I had gone to work part time and one of us was home with him 24 hours a day. One of us was always with him and I stopped working for two weeks and when I came back it was really hard. I mean it was very difficult to go back to work and be able to focus. There's so much that that's going on and your entire being is consumed with this grief. It's very difficult to focus.

                                                 It really affects us on every layer of being. Yoga has this awesome model called the Koshas, which really helps us understand this. It impacts us physically, energetically, mentally, intuitively, emotionally, spiritually. The Koshas is a beautiful model for helping people understand that. And also teaching yoga teachers and therapists how to help people manage it. So when I went back I was like, okay, I know people are going to ask me how I am and I don't really want to stop in the hall and start talking about how I am. Because I don't want, this was me, to do that in the middle of the work day. I can't because I can't keep it together. If I do that, I know knew where I could go: coworkers, friends of mine, I could go in and have a safe space. If I needed to, I could go in my office and shut the door and cry, but I didn't want people talking to me. So I thought I have to come up with something. And so I couldn't say I was fine cause I wasn't. But to me I could say I'm okay. because to me that meant I'm here and I'm breathing and I'm getting through this day. And so it wasn't a lie, but it wasn't also the full truth either.

                                                So sometimes we don't need to ask the grieving person. But sometimes it's helpful to be a listening, nonjudgmental, compassionate ear for this person to say, how are you really? And if it's an appropriate kind of context and space, then that's beautiful. It gives somebody the space to tell their story, which a lot of people really don't. And I think that this bypassing that you were saying like bypassing the pain with the positive stuff. So if a grieving person says the positive things, that's okay.

                                                I mean, there's a lot of things that a grieving person can say that somebody else shouldn't say like for example, anything that starts with at least, at least you have all your other children, at least your house isn't burnt down or whatever. At least anything is never good. At least he's not in pain anymore. Now the grieving person can say that and that's okay to a point. Because it's true that everything can be worse. Things can always be worse. And sometimes that's kind of comforting in a way, to me anyway, to say, okay, and it helps you sort of put things in perspective. And for a long time I said things like that to myself, well, at least he didn't die in pain, I hope. At least he wasn't afraid. At least he was surrounded by love, at least, he was with us - all these things. At that time when my son died, there was a lot of focus on awful things happening in Darfur and how mothers were witnessing the death of their children right in front of them in terrible ways. And I just thought, well, at least that's not happening in our town where we live. There was a horrible murder of an entire family. And I just was like, at least he didn't die in that kind of way. And so, but eventually I had to say to myself, I need to stop saying that because what happened was bad enough. And I felt if I kept saying this at least stuff, then I was harming myself because what I was going through was bad enough. And I felt it was not honoring him and his life and also was not honoring myself and my own grief where I was. But it took me awhile to realize that.

                                                 I don't think, unless somebody could say to me in a compassionate, loving way: hey, I feel like when you say that over and over, this is harmful to you and here's why. And that's okay. And I think you've got to have a really trusting relationship with somebody to be able to say that to them. Because grieving people can say a lot of things that other people shouldn't. Like he's in a better place. People would say that all the time. And that's hurtful because to a mother there's not a better place. Was I glad he wasn't in pain? I wouldn't want him to be in pain, of course not, but I didn't feel he was in a better place necessarily. There's no better place.

                                                This is another thing I hear all the time from people. People say they're in a better place, but where are they really? I don't know. And so when other people say that sort of line, it just sort of triggers, could potentially cause this cascade of other thoughts in the grieving person head. Well I don't know that they're in a better place. What is it really like where they are? I don't know where they really are and who knows? It's very difficult. I get in conversations with people fairly regularly who say, well people are just trying to be helpful and being defensive about it. And I say, I know that, but often it's not. It's so unfair to the grieving person that often the onus of educating the people falls on us. So it's either we say nothing or we get really angry, some people get really angry, which I totally identify with. That happened to me a lot. And then say things we might regret or mean things that maybe we don't mean in that moment out of pain or we feel like we have to educate you. And I wish it wasn't.

                                                 I don't mind educating people. It's my job now. I call myself a grief activist, because I feel like it's my job now to educate the public on how to deal with grief. But it shouldn't be on the newly grieving person and they don't know, you're so vulnerable and you're desperate. And it's just this really open wounded space that you're carrying around. And there's so much pain that's heaped on top of the pain when all they really need is compassion and non-judgment and presence and love.

                                                And that is also a thing that yoga really teaches beautifully. It is also based on the teachings. The first thing is always ahimsa. And if you don't know if what you're about to say it's going to cause pain. Don't say it because it's better to say: I don't even know what to say to you. I'm so sorry. I just don't have the words. It is so much better than saying something that could be painful.

                                                People really do think it's okay to say a lot of stuff that may not be because they've not been in that situation and I get it. If they express to you, well that's not helpful or that's hurtful or I don't think they're in a better place than don't argue it. Oh well I'm sorry. I didn't know. Tell me, tell me how you're feeling. Having active compassion for this person and open to wanting to hear what they're saying. Ahimsa, I don't want to do any more harm. Tell me what would be helpful or tell me what you're going through and then to be really aware of your own discomfort around it because it's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable when you don't know what to say or if there's silence.

                                                But in general, in our culture, I don't think we're very good at listening to people. We're thinking about what am I going to say to them before they're even done talking which means you're not really listening. To be able to really listen, you have to be fully present, which is another thing yoga can teach us how to do. You talked earlier about this bypassing and I think some of this comes along whenever I talk about aparigraha for example. So non-grasping and you hear a lot  that you have to let it go and you can't hold onto that pain or whatever.

                                                People when they are supported and they're able to grow; grief is really a developmental process. I haven't just learned this on my own because I've done a lot of study and work. But I do remember the moment when I was on my own and I was looking at a tree and it had been like five years since my son had died. I was doing this work at that point. And I had written a lot about healing and I talked about healing and I was trying to heal and doing my own healing stuff and I was looking at tree and how it was growing. I love trees; I find a lot of comfort from trees and nature. But I thought, what if this is not a healing process, but what if it's a growth process and a learning process? And that made sense to me because I want to always be growing and learning forever for the rest of my life. I saw a quote yesterday from Eartha Kitt that said, I'm always learning and my gravestone will be my diploma. I loved that. Anyway, I thought it's a growth and a learning process. What if it's not a healing thing? And at that it really felt like a weight was lifted off me because I thought, oh, what if I don't have to heal? And it was just so freeing because I am not going to heal from this. I don't need to heal from grief.

                                                Because grief is not pathological. It is normal and it is natural. You don't need to heal from it. Now you can heal from trauma of all sorts. You can heal from the pain and relationships. So you might have unfinished business when the person has died and that can be healed. Any situation that is traumatic can be healed and integrated and processed. But the grief itself does not need to be healed. It's a normal and a natural thing that we're always moving through and growing through. There's not an end place.

                                                 Coming back to the yoga piece and the bypassing and looking at aparigraha and let it go and all these things, it doesn't make sense. it depends on the loss and it depends on the person. Like yesterday. I still have a landline phone. I'm one the very few people. I do have also a cell phone and we have an answer machine that's digital and it had like 14 old messages on it from when my daughter was like three. And there was a message to me on my birthday from my grandmother who died this past March and there was messages, all these birthday songs and just people's voices and we kept them for a long time. There was some weird things going on with the phone yesterday and it was beeping and doing weird things and ringing. I was touching buttons on the thing and then the man's voice said deleting all messages, all messages deleted. And I was like, oh my God. And I like was so devastated. That was a loss. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'll never get those things back. Like it was a loss for me. I was very upset for a few minutes and then I just thought, okay, I can let that go. I mean I have other things. I've got pictures, I've got some voicemails on my phone, there's videos of the same people talking. I can let that go. There's some stuff we can just let go.

                                                Often really intense grief helps us to let things go. After my son died, I just didn't care about stuff anymore, my material things. That was an interesting because I collected a lot of different things and I don't care. And so when we moved, shortly after he died, which is a hard process, I got rid of so many things and I just did not care about the stuff. It was interesting how this changes you, but in terms of people letting somebody go, closure is not a real thing. It's really not. You might get closure on an incident and say, okay, this is done. But you don't need closure on a relationship of a person you love who you don't want to be done with. I'm never going to stop being his mother. If when somebody's parent dies, you don't stop being their child, when your friend dies, you don't stop being their friend.

                                                It's weird to think like that to me now, but it's a cultural thing, but also what makes sense in terms of letting something go and grow. There's a difference in grasping onto something and releasing it. It's just holding with what is - is what I say. You don't have to let go of things. Our brains are literally wired for attachment. We have evolved to the state that we're in these big, huge brains that we have because of our ability to attach to each other. Our social attachment is our life. If we don't attach to others, we don't live. If a mother doesn't attach to her baby, that baby's not going to thrive. If you don't attach to your partner, then you're not going to have a good solid family unit and then you probably won't have children. And then the biological imperative to create the children isn't going to be there. All these things we're meant to attach and that doesn't go away.

                                                It's a balance; are you grasping and that's different and maybe we can talk about that. Somebody in early days (of grief) you don't want to have that conversation with because they are grasping everything. Later when you're comfortable and you're growing in your grief, this is what happens when you develop as a being through your grief. You don't necessarily have to hold on to everything. But that's also individual. I mean I know people whose children have died and their room is exactly the same as it was the day that they last saw that person a lot. And that's fine. Look at Graceland, it's an entire house and this dude has been dead for a long time and people go to see it all the time and they don't even didn't even know Elvis in his life, but they want to go see his house, which is a memorial to him. Nobody thinks that's weird, but somebody thinks it's weird if a person keeps their child's room the same. I don't see the difference. I mean, in fact, it makes more sense that you would want to keep your child's room this way. What's interesting is that probably it changes over time that room. Little things happen and it evolves and it's fine.

                                                But we need these attachments. There's a whole thing in grief now called continuing bonds. It's makes sense. Grieving people know that it makes sense, but now it's a therapeutic technique to help your clients have continuing bonds with their deceased beloveds. Because we know it's healthy. Instead of saying, Oh, I'm cutting it off, I'm getting closure. It doesn't make sense. The love goes on and the love can continue to grow. In fact it's like that relationship with that person can grow over time and you grow and you change just like it would if they were here. You grow and develop in that relationship in different ways.

                                                But I think yoga also supports that through ahimsa and telling your truth and being aware of your own truth. You're the person who you have to tell the most truth to, 100% of the truth if you can. And then being honest with what you need and how you feel. Yoga gives us these tools to be able to do it. And then, having self-study around svadhyaya. You have the definition that includes holy scriptures, but I don't see how anybody can be helped by a holy scripture if they can't apply it with self-awareness, which is self-study and self-inquiry. And so you do this and you really look with honesty and with the most amount of compassion and how your behavior, how your inner dialogue, how it's affecting you and it helps you to grow through your grief and develop as a person. So you become more emotionally well-rounded eventually. If you let it, grief can just make you so much more compassionate and open to others. But it requires being present to your pain and hopefully having good support.

39:47                                     It's a really different way to think about it because I do agree that the societal norm is that this is going to end and that you will become okay and then it's all over with. I used to teach seniors and of course grief was something that was in the classroom often and anniversaries and stuff were always hard. I had some limited knowledge of that, but you've explained it very well. I think that's excellent. We don't have a whole lot of time left and I understand this is a very complex topic, but talk a little bit about your book about Chakras.

40:56                                     The first mention about the Chakras was in the Yoga for Grief and Loss book and the Tantra Yoga Chapter. That's where I first mentioned it. And when I started writing about the Chakras, I just kept going and going and going and going. And my husband said, you can't keep doing that. You can't write that much. I can't stop. I did go through all seven of them. But then I literally took it out and put it aside for later. It's interesting and I got this feedback from clients of mine who read it and friends too. And one person had said, you should have written this one first. And I said, well, I couldn't have because it just kinda grew from the other one. She said, well, it's so much easier to understand. And this is from a person who is not a yoga person at all and had no previous knowledge of Yoga.

                                                And then I realized what the difference is. And I think it's true because the charkra book really talks about each of the chakras and describes some basic information about each one, the senses which each one is connected (the Muladhara, the root Chakra is connected to the sense of smell) and the colors and that basic sort of information. It talks about how each one of the chakras might be impacted in trauma and also grief. It's also about non-death trauma as well.

                                                People who read it will say, oh my gosh, I totally understand that because that's exactly how I feel, that's what I went through. It totally resonates with my experience. Whereas the yoga book is more instructive. It does have some of that really personal stuff in it. It reads like a conversation that we might have. And I mentioned some of my story and talk a lot about social stuff around grief, but it's not that really intense inner experience. And I think when people read the Chakras book, they resonate with it because it mirrors their experience whether they know anything about it or not.

                                                I've said before that I don't care whether people believe that they're real. It makes no difference whether you think that there are actual things that really exist. And I know in a lot of Tantric texts, they're meant to be points of meditation, but they do correspond with physical places in the body, like marma points do. So they're points on the body where you would put your focus. A lot of people have said, well all of this modern interpretation is not based in vedic texts, but I see sort of an inner interwoven place there. I think that the vedic texts really do talk about a lot of these things because it mentions the correspondences and it's all symbology as well. And I think it works metaphorically just as well as it works if you think it's factual. If you think I really do have this energetic space at the base of my spine and I'm going to work with it because I know it's there, it works just as well to see it as a symbol. I don't care either way.

                                                I do a lot of artwork with people and all of that stuff, symbol, everything that we work with that's in our Vijnanamaya kosha, the wisdom body is a symbol. Like we're a whole being. We're spiritual and emotional and there's so much that resonates in the symbolic spaces for us. It doesn't mean it's not real quote unquote real. Because it definitely affects us in our real physical world. So to me it makes no difference. think they're real, but you don't have to believe they're real to get the benefit from looking at it this way. The book deals with each of the seven Chakras and speaks to my thinking around grief and trauma as a developmental process that we learn and grow through this process.

                                                And we do that by having balance as much as possible in our lives and in all of our koshas. And we don't stay balanced all the time. It's not normal for your chakras to be balanced all the time. It's just like your physical body. It's always working toward homeostasis the best that it can. And so does our energetic body and this book really gives suggestions and ways that you can work with your own energy and to be as balanced as possible. And I think the Chakra system and the Chakra book itself breaks down a grief and trauma process in these ways that make sense in terms of the emotional aspects, the physical aspects, and the interactive social aspects. All the things that go along with each of the qualities of each different Chakra. And so you can think, oh well I know I've got those Chakra issues, let me read that chapter. You can do that. Or if you know nothing about chakras at all, you can read the introductory chapter and it helps to make a lot of sense of what that system can potentially do for you. You can read it straight through and there's so many exercises. I do energy work with people too. And I really try to tell people, look, you don't need me to do this for you. You need to be doing this at home. Like learning how to do your own energy work and have your own balancing. If you go get a pedicure, it's nice that somebody else can do it for you. Sometimes you just relax, but you can do it yourself if you need to know. And maybe you should take care of your nails yourself on a regular basis.

                                                It's the same kind of concept, but I think it's a more personal, intimate look at your individual experience through grief and trauma.  The yoga book doesn't do that exactly. In the Yoga for Grief and Loss book, l each chapter talks about a different branch of yoga and why that particular branch of Yoga is very helpful in grief. It gives you exercises and it says try these things. But I think the Chakra book really says, Oh, I can see you and this is your experience. And it's very valid thing to a lot of people. You don't have to believe in yoga for it to work, because Yoga believes in you. And it's like the force, when I explain Prana, I'll talk about it in terms of Chi and Qi. It's the same life force, but really it's also the thing they talk about in star wars. It's this force that binds us and surrounds us and connects all of us. And whether you believe it or not, these tools of Yoga work to support that. And then you end up getting the benefit, whether you believed in it or not in the first place. And I just think that's amazing.

49:07                                     Yes, I agree with you. It is amazing. Thank you so much Carla. It's really been interesting. I've heard other people talk about this idea of grief not being something that stops exactly, but your idea of it being an evolution, a growth opportunity. And I think your point about as we get older, we're going to have to deal with it more and more becomes quite relevant to know that this is something that just happens as lots of things happen in life. So I want to really thank you. I think it was really interesting.  I think using yoga in this way is definitely an expansion of the way that people think about yoga. So, it was great to talk to you.

51:14                                     Oh, thank you. Stephanie. I'm so happy that you do this program because people have this really limited idea about yoga. People would even say to me, Oh, I really want to read your book, but I can't do yoga. People have this idea of what they think yoga is. And your show really flogs this and helps people to see, Well maybe this is something that I might be interested in. Maybe it is something that could be helpful to me. I really appreciate that because the concepts of yoga really help us to live our lives day to day. Thank you so much.

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