Special Ed on Special Ed

The science tells us we feel AND do better when we attend to our own nutrition, physical activity, and mental health. So, what have you done for yourself lately!

Dr. Marney White, clinical psychologist and Associate Professor at the Yale School of Public Health, joins us and she's going to tell us what we need to know about self-care!

Especially now that parents are home with children all day due to the COVID-19 closures. We are scheduling like crazy but are we scheduling the right things? Those things you call a guilty pleasure could be what clears your head and opens your mind.

Relevant links Article on Dr. White's self-care class https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/23577/

Psychology Today offer a "find a therapist near you" option for those looking for support https://www.psychologytoday.com/us

Dr. White's online class, Foundations of Health Behavior Change https://www.coursera.org/learn/health-behavior-change

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDSpeople, stress, students, parents, children, work, therapist, talk, engage, telehealth, care, experiencing, point, mental distress, self care practices, find, mental health, behaviors, small, recommend

SPEAKERSDana Jonson, Dr. Marney White

Dana Jonson 00:02

Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson and I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IEPs. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I've approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear, comment on, join our Facebook group, it's aptly named need to know Dana Jonson, or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. Okay, let's get started. Okay, so today we are meeting with Dr. Marnie White, who is a clinical psychologist and an associate professor at the Yale School of Public Health. Thank you for joining us, Marnie, thank you so much for having me. I wanted you to come on and talk to me, because I know that you do a class on self care at Yale. And one of the things that I have been telling my parents consistently for the last feels like 4000 days, is that you have to engage in self care. If you are not okay, you can't help your kid. Correct? Yeah. So I think sometimes people have a hard time wrapping their brain around that. And I hear a lot, well, I have to take care of the kids, I have to take care of the kids. And I think if you're losing your mind, that's not helpful. So first, before we get into self care too much, I do want to give a little background on you and what you do and why you are the person I want to talk to about this, how you got here, how Why are you going to about self care?

Dr. Marney White 02:00

Absolutely. So this is actually kind of an evolving story about a class that I teach in the graduate program, the Master's in Public Health Program, the School of Public Health, and it evolved probably from my position as being both in public health and in psychiatry. As a psychologist, my research has been focused on prevention and prevention of mental health problems. And also, another side interest is just on dissemination of telehealth therapies actually trying to get affordable mental health treatment, and also education to individuals for whom it might not otherwise be accessible, either by geographic distance, or, you know, as we're seeing with the current catastrophe, due to various health conditions that would preclude someone from engaging in face to face treatment. So that's how I ended up being in public health in the first place was about prevention work. And then over time, I started noticing what I felt was an epidemic of mental health problems among students in higher education. Because of I was one of the few psychologists in that school, a few clinicians, students would very frequently approached me about referral sources, places that they could get mental health treatment and that kind of thing. And it occurred to me that this really intense levels of stress and anxiety and depression, and really significant rates, significant increases over the past generations. And it seemed to me this, that it might be something really about the lifestyle that was making people who are, you know, otherwise functioning quite well, especially vulnerable to the onset of significant clinical mental distress. So when you talk about the amount of stress that these students are carrying, are you talking about, from an academic perspective, because they're in a highly competitive university, or? Absolutely, that as well as many other lifestyle factors. So certainly, the the stresses of academic strain, but also some of the things like the need, it's almost a badge of honor, sometimes for students to talk about pulling all nighters or how they're managing their research and their classwork and so on. And so I mean, I know many of us who have had lengthy educational histories can relate to that somewhat, you know, you kind of you get to, the more stressed you are, the more work you're doing, the more highly you're commended for these.

Dana Jonson 04:30

Well, there is something and I don't know if it's true, so you tell me, but I think that there is something to some people handle stress a little bit better, but then they're more prone to take on way more.

Dr. Marney White 04:39

Yes. Yeah, I think that's certainly likely a bit of a snowball effect there. Right. So, you know, I just sort of observing these things for a couple of years and wondered whether or not it was possible to create an intervention of sorts to essentially force students or give them the option to encourage them strongly let me put it that way to engage in various self care practices. And I really want to intervene on a multiple levels because again, like we were talking about not only is it to be academic strain, but there are other factors about the graduate student experience that make it an especially stressful time going to make a parallel quickly to the Coronavirus epidemic. So that, I think, because I think that essentially we are, we're all kind of living in this very extreme situation that has many commonalities with what I was trying to create for the students themselves. So, for example, things like financial strain, social isolation, separation from primary support groups, or loved ones, poor nutrition, lack of physical activity, or lack of adequate physical activity, perhaps substance or alcohol misuse, all of these things can create a perfect storm for the development of significant mental health problems. Or even those are just a, you know, a decline from from normal. So I think that right now we're seeing at the population level, people engaging in many of these health behaviors, or perhaps just letting some of their typical routines or health behaviors slide. And this, then, you know, raising the vulnerability for the onset of mental distress. And I ever go thing that you just mentioned, is something that parents of children with disabilities is experiencing right now, every single thing. Because most of them, I shouldn't say most of them, there are a lot of kids who went home and went to this kind of learning, I have one of them and was like, this is fantastic. I'm in, I don't ever need to leave the house, this is great. If you have a child who has social skills, issues, it's not as great as they think. But there are a lot of parents who, you know, their children have a lot of support at school, and now they're home, and they're juggling a job, or they're juggling, not having a job and deal with that. And then trying to get that done while you know getting the kids together. And when you talk about students using that as a badge of honor, I kind of laugh because I think parents of children with disabilities do too, we tend to, you know, it's, everything is constant, you're you're non stop, there's always something to do, you're always more and more stressed, and more, whose to do list is longer. And I have more therapy appointments to get to than you do. So I don't wanna hear you complain, or, you know, stuff like that. And, and you do see it, I mean, I think that is in our society, it is a badge of honor to be able to push through being sick and not rest, or to work until you're unconscious, you know, we just have this drive that doesn't seem to be healthy. So telling parents, you know, you can do that oxygen mask mask on the airplane. And I've heard allergy so many times, I've got to find a new one. But it is you have to take care of yourself, if you're stressed out, it doesn't matter what you're doing with your child, because it's not, it's not going to work, right. And then they will absorb that as well. You know, so that's, that's something that I myself use, when trying to motivate or employ the exact same strategies that I encourage for students, it's still difficult, we are human, and it is very difficult to kind of nudge ourselves into doing things that are good for us, even though we know it will feel good. But something that at least works for me or is helpful for me as a parent is to say, No, I have to engage in these stress reduction techniques, because otherwise my child will be the end of the line recipient of of all of the stress and anxiety that I've been absorbing. And so that that little mantra for me is like I need to do this for him. I have to do this for him, because otherwise he's going to suffer.

Dana Jonson 08:37

Right? What are the things that that anyone can do to identify? Because I think sometimes people don't recognize this? No, I'm not stressed because again, that mentality that it's okay, to be stressed, you have to be a certain level of stress, right? If you haven't hit the high level of stress, then you can't take a break.

Dr. Marney White 08:55

Yeah, that's a great, this is where the public health angle comes in. Because typically, when we think about the medical model and the clinical model, we're usually talking about intervening at the point of significant distress or significant sickness or, you know, presentation of, of symptoms. So even just thinking about the medical model, when do we go to the doctor, we go to the doctor when we have a fever, or we're experiencing some kind of physical sign or symptom. And then the same kind of holds for when people tend to seek out mental health services when there's some clinically significant, highly distressing or interfering level of symptom presentation. But for this self care stuff, I like to encourage the public health approach which is seeking some kind of blanket intervention that's applied to the entire population, meaning ourselves even in a state of wellness, so it's taking a clear Prevention's standpoint, meaning engaging in these daily activities mostly focus probably on physical health and well being and getting enough rest or engaging and relaxation exercises or stretches to specifically unwind and protect our mental and emotional well being. And I think now more than ever, it's critical to engage in these at least daily, potentially multiple times a day and potentially even in a variety of domains.

Dana Jonson 10:16

And that's a good point. Because I think that when you talk about preventative health, I love that we, you know, my four children all are in therapy all the time. And I remember somebody said to me, like, oh, well, they all have all these issues. And I was thinking, not this week, no, but I don't want my kids to think you have to wait till you have a crisis.

Dr. Marney White 10:35

Right? Right.

Dana Jonson 10:37

Having a therapist in your life is normal. And sometimes you see them more frequently than others. But you know, I want them to understand that that is a normal state of being and that if you're always engaged in it, sometimes you need it more than you do other times. But it's always a sense of normal, we don't have a society that values it in that regard, yet.

Dr. Marney White 10:58

I agree. And I really liked that approach as well. And something that I'd like to even encourage or use as another sort of cliche or release mantra is to try to conceptualize mental health services as as even when they're applied in like a state of wellness as something like a spa treatment for the emotions or for the soul. And knights, you know, when we think about preventative health, most people are okay with going to their physician for a regular checkup and getting the standard physical health screenings as recommended, but we have not as a culture have been able to embrace mental health care in the same manner. And it's a real shame.

Dana Jonson 11:38

Are you seeing a trend in that either going up or down

Dr. Marney White 11:41

from the stigma with respect to mental health services? I what I'm observing a little bit is that following education, about mental health, the prevalence of mental illness, and the effectiveness of mental health treatments, as well as the effectiveness of mental health prevention programs, are actually able to see that following education surrounding these issues. Stigma does diminish over time, at least among students. So whether or not that generalizes to the overall population, I certainly cannot say but that would certainly be a dream of mine. Like every time we get close to sort of embracing that mental health component. We have something that catapults us into another crisis, where we have to up our game again, and we there to start with. Yeah, I mean, potentially, as it is, it's a silver lining of some of the Coronavirus catastrophe is that we are now in a position where telehealth is the only mental health service available, at least for right now. And so clinicians as well as clients are potentially much more open minded to that medium. It's something that's been researched and studied for decades now that we know that telehealth can be every bit as effective as the traditional face to face that Yeah, yeah. And there are treatments already available. And even some of these apps that have come out in recent years are very effective and teaching people the same skills that would they would ordinarily be taught and the empirically supported treatments for mental health.

Dana Jonson 13:15

So what are some ways that families parents or students can identify that, and I hear what you're saying about preventative and we should all be doing this every day. And I would promote that as well. But I think the reality, at least today in this chaos, not sure where we're gonna go. And so just kind of reacting. But we're going to get a little more settled, and we're going to get to that place. But until you're in a place where you can have that, that pre emptive routine and incorporate something into their lives. How can they identify? Or do you have strategies for someone to identify when they might be more stressed than they think they are? Or they might be reacting in a way in a negative way and not identifying it?

Dr. Marney White 13:57

Yeah, I mean, I think the the clinical the textbook answer to that is when there is interference, interference with social or occupational functioning, when you're no longer you know, when you're snapping at people, for example, or when you're no longer able to fulfill your family or work obligations. The problem right now is Hi, guess what, that's pretty much everyone, the entire population is no longer functioning right, you know, with respect to their typical or their normal behavior patterns in terms of how they're interacting with their families or their jobs if they're able to work during this time. So it's very difficult to tease that apart right now. Which leads me back to my original point. Everyone is suffering socially, and occupationally. And so this is the time I think that everyone is in significantly elevated vulnerability for experiencing mental health issues. And the data of course are not out on that but I think that everyone in the field and everyone At home, I think that everyone knows this is a super vulnerable time for experiencing mental distress. And so to that end, blanket recommendation, engage in these behaviors, it is critical, because the last thing you want to do is start that snowball down the hill that up to a point that you can no longer catch it or stop it.

Dana Jonson 15:20

Well, and particularly since we are in isolation, right? You don't have that audience around you to say, hey, Marnie, you're having a really bad day, what's going on? You don't have those. You don't have that barometer around you. And for some parents, their only barometer right now is their kids, single parents at home with multiple children, trying to just how do you recommend that? You know, for somebody who's like, I don't really need it, or it's not me, or I can't fit it into my life? What kinds of things do you advise?

Dr. Marney White 15:50

Well, I'm sure that you've mentioned routines pretty consistently throughout your podcast. Same applies here. You know, I recommend starting with very small, but measurable goals. So really using that same kind of behavioral terminology with which I think everyone is quite familiar these days. But even using, you know, a very specific goal, whether it's, you know, setting a standard wake time on having a first meal of the day, some small behavioral modification, five minutes of stretching, using a breathing app four times a day, where you actually do deep breathing for 30 seconds and choosing a measurable small something and you know, that 30 seconds of breathing of closing your eyes and breathing, administered a few times throughout the course of the day, setting a prompt on your phone, to remind you, those small things can be remarkably beneficial. In terms of maintaining your stress, I even chose during this time to set a daily goal of walking my dog once around the block, and which, you know, there are certainly some days when I'm like, I just don't feel like it. I'm tired, I've worked hard all day, I just don't even want to. And then he gives me the sweet puppy dog eyes, like, okay, and sure enough, you know, before I'm even halfway around the block, I'm already feeling better. There is just something about protecting even a few minutes of time to attend to your own well being that is remarkably beneficial. And the other thing about it tends to heighten self efficacy, which is our optimistic belief in our ability to meet challenges. And so that kind of pattern of encouraging people to engage in a very small, something for your own well being a couple of times a day or once a day, is enough to contribute to boosts and self efficacy and mental wellness overall.

Dana Jonson 17:52

I'm curious about this, because I've heard this several times, particularly teenagers with anxiety, and I hear the parents say, well, they won't engage in meditation, or they won't engage in breathing because it raises their anxiety. What is that about? What is it raise?

Dr. Marney White 18:09

No, I don't actually know exactly what that's about or why that would be. So so much as I know that to be true. For some people, it is just not a good connection, or it

Dana Jonson 18:22

thoroughly that everyone will benefit from this particular exercise, right? You have to find.

Dr. Marney White 18:27

Yep, you have to find the the niche that's right for you. And so I would recommend trying out a variety of these. And so what like when I just shared that I walk my dog every day as one of my I actually I've walked my dog among several other things. And if I'm not willing to walk him, then I will stretch for 10 minutes instead. Because there have been some rainy cold days. And I'm like, I'm not doing that it was too overcast to go for a walk the other day. Exactly. And this is exactly why pointing like we're human, even though we know we will enjoy it, it's still very tough to kind of push over that motivational hurdle. And so that's why I think it's a good idea to have a couple of these like a toolkit, if you will, of strategies that you can try so that if the weather does prevent your your morning walk, or if you get a late start or if there's some other curveball, because let's face it, there are going to be a whole lot of curveballs and obstacles, that you have something else that you can grab and do. And then over time of being able to implement these on a regular basis over time, they do become intrinsically rewarding. And that's really the ideal, right?

Dana Jonson 19:32

It's to make that habit once it becomes a habit actually, it's funny because I tell parents now we're asking parents to document everything for what I'd like to think are very obvious reasons. But we you know, when we get back to whatever we're going back to, we're gonna have to figure out where all these kids are some asking parents to document and I've had a few parents say, well, like you I don't have time I can't do it. And I've said if the only thing you write down is today sucked, that's okay. It's just work there. Yeah. And and eventually writing in that book once a day will become habit, and then you'll do it more than once a day, and then it'll, you know, grow. So it's, it's the same thing with mental health, right? If you're, if you force yourself to take those five minutes, that's what I've been telling parents five minutes, I don't care what you do for five, lock yourself in a room go sit in your car, what makes you chill for five minutes?

Dr. Marney White 20:24

Right? Right. And then, you know, I even recommend employing behavioral strategies. So going beyond the just tell yourself, but setting prompts setting, you know, setting the alarm on your phone. Okay, now this is the time for me to go take that five minute break, leaving reminders, even employing reinforcement principles or behavioral principles like that.

Dana Jonson 20:46

Right?

Dr. Marney White 20:46

Yeah,

Dana Jonson 20:47

it takes a walk, I don't get my pint of ice cream.

Dr. Marney White 20:50

Exactly. Yeah, or the I mean, you know, the, the thing that I've shown there was once a once upon a time, in order to try to incentivize my own physical activity, my own working out, I told myself, well, I just wouldn't have a glass of wine with dinner if I hadn't done my exercise. And then very quickly, I learned that the wine just wasn't reinforcing enough, I didn't care. And so I have to set a different contingency for myself. So I then started watching my trashy television while working out on an exercise bike. And it turns out that that concurrent reinforcement of you know, I will continue to pedal for access to horrible reality TV was what kept me going until it got to the point where it became intrinsically rewarding. And now it is actually, you know, part of my lifestyle, but it took some trial and error. And I absolutely use these behavioral principles in shaping my own health behavior, and self care. So I recommend that these are things that we're all masters of as parents, but again, it's a little bit tricky to try to apply them to yourself.

Dana Jonson 21:53

And it goes back to do as I say, not as I do, right, because another, we're all very much like that, too. Because we recognize we don't need the same boundaries our children do, but our children don't recognize that. So it comes around. I love the consequence for yourself for the reward for yourself. I went through a phase where I wouldn't shower unless I'd worked out.

Dr. Marney White 22:13

Oh, my goodness. All right. That's a little

Dana Jonson 22:17

extreme.

Dr. Marney White 22:20

Effective, though, so

Dana Jonson 22:22

because I wouldn't allow myself to shower unless I had worked out. And that was apparently what I needed to do to get myself to work.

Dr. Marney White 22:31

And now you probably enjoy working out and

Dana Jonson 22:33

Right, exactly. Some of the strategies you talked about physical health walking?

Dr. Marney White 22:38

Uh huh.

Dana Jonson 22:39

The thing trashy television?

Dr. Marney White 22:41

Yeah.

Dana Jonson 22:42

I think that sometimes people think that if they're doing something healthy, it has to be kind of highbrow.

Dr. Marney White 22:47

No. Certainly, no, no,

Dana Jonson 22:52

if I'm watching, you know, The Housewives of New Jersey, then maybe that's not really time for myself. Maybe that's just wasted time.

Dr. Marney White 22:59

But you get a predictable ego boost. So every time you watch it, and think you know what I'm doing great.

Dana Jonson 23:05

I'm doing great. I like to watch on that that reality show and I'm couples counseling. Honey, get in here we're back. Get an award.

Dr. Marney White 23:17

Yeah, no, I have the I think that what ever will protect or boost one's mood, or has the potential to, to help others through distraction, or even just any sort of stress release. I mean, I certainly have had students who have protected time to listen to comedy on Pandora, because we know that laughter is an enormous detective for subsequent stress, as well as actually does release stress. So it works both ways as a stress relieving function, and also as a buffer. So there's really a lot to be you know, turning on Pandora or one of the free streaming services and listening to comedians would be an excellent wellness.

Dana Jonson 24:02

Yeah, that's so funny. Because when this first started, and there are six of us here, and when it first started, we were locked in we watched a stand up comic every night, I didn't do it on purpose. I was just like, This is what's happening.

Dr. Marney White 24:13

And you know, laughter there's something to that, but home laughter is the best medicine thing. There's actually a huge body of literature about the stress relieving properties of laughter neuro chemically, and and on just, you know, subjective perceived outcomes. It's very great.

Dana Jonson 24:30

That's awesome. We have parents and children all stuck in it. Well, everybody's stuck at home and whoever you're stuck with, should we be encouraging people to take that time by themselves? Or should we be encouraging parents to do it as a group with their kids? Or?

Dr. Marney White 24:45

I don't know, there's any clear answer for that. I think it's it's all going to be individual preference. And I don't know that would be consistent across days, either. Some people who might have ordinarily labeled themselves as extroverts are suddenly finding that actually they are Okay, not being in large groups of people all the time. And people who might otherwise enjoy a whole lot of family togetherness are finding that they need a little bit more privacy than they would have otherwise predicted. I don't think there's any right answer. And I think that this is going to be variable throughout the course of this. And it might require some experimentation, and yeah, just some, some incorporating various different strategies to see what works and what works this week might have been very different from what would have been effective six weeks ago.

Dana Jonson 25:27

I like that, because I've seen that where we have one day where walking the dogs is perfect for everybody. And everyone had a great day and another day where nothing works. And I think I'm hearing a lot. You know, we've got all these webinars, everyone's being bombarded with information on how to handle being at home, and how to handle your kids. And I mean, there's just so much coming from everywhere, that I want parents to understand, too, that there is no one exercise, there is no one thing because I hear people saying, well, you have to do breathing, or you have to do morning meeting, or you have to do you have to do you have to do and you don't you do take the time, right to figure out what works for you that day. And then make it work.

Dr. Marney White 26:12

Yeah. And that's why I'm recommending this toolkit approach to because I think that, you know, circumstances are highly variable. You know, if someone had a nightmare in the middle of one night, guess what, people are gonna be a little bit more sleep deprived. And the strategy that might have worked under ideal conditions might no longer be what's most readily available, or even possible

Dana Jonson 26:33

daughter and her therapist came up with, since you said toolbox, an actual box.

Dr. Marney White 26:38

Oh, how cool,

Dana Jonson 26:39

actual box of things that calms her down, like a coloring book, a pig, or a stuffed animal. And so when she takes her break, she can go get her box if she wants and pick something. I love that. Yeah. So that's what they came up in their sessions. So that could apply to adults to write the group of things you'd like to do and just be like, here are my five things I can pick from, then you've got variety. When you first get married, I remember no, not married when we had kids. And I remember, everyone's like, you have to go out on a date. And you have to do it this way. And you have to so we did. Yeah, we did. At least everybody told us and we were like, we still don't want to be here. Oh, can we just go do something else? It wasn't, you know, that wasn't our thing as a couple that whatever it was we thought we had to do wasn't something we'd ever done before. So why leave the right thing? Yeah, yeah, I think it's really important for parents to remember that. Now what about for there's the day to day stress, there's the extra stress we're all experiencing. But then we get into a clinically dangerous place. Sometimes for some people, how can parents help identify that within themselves or their children, if they are beyond a breathing exercise or toolkit, and actually seek professional help? What would science for that?

Dr. Marney White 28:02

Well, I mean, of course, it'll depend on the specific problem, whether it's somewhere, but I'm going to go with what's likely to be like the most prevalent right now, which would be somewhere in the depression and anxiety realms. So when we're talking about anxiety, and and, and depression to being clinically significant, some kind of markers would be inability to fall asleep, or have sustained sleep or waking up very early, a lot of times these begin to take on physical indicators. So feeling as though you're not able to unwind ever and just kind of noticing within yourself whether or not you know, kind of starting to feel like you're not yourself or when friends or family members would say that you're not really behaving as you typically do. And then again, kind of coming back to that interference with social and occupational functioning. So when you're really noticing that you're not able to fulfill your general work or family obligations, and that it's sustained, it's likely that in this time, people will demonstrate a great deal of resilience and following the various other kinds of tragedies, people do tend to experience high levels of distress. But in many cases, their existing supports and strategies do kind of help them persist or kind of get through the critical period. But I always kind of take a much more liberal approach with these things. Or I guess you could consider a much more aggressive approach of sort of, I like to catch things very early, again, because it's not only easier to treat, but it also has better outcomes for the for the long term. So this isn't it's kind of debated among clinicians and among specialists and there is no completely clear demarcation either. So

Dana Jonson 29:56

that's a really good point because we are in a situation where we are now Seeing our doctors, right? Right, we are not physically going to see our therapists. You know, I know, as I said, in my house, all four of my children have their own therapist, and they're maintaining those appointments. But it's also very easy. Sometimes I recognize that oh, one of them only scheduled for two weeks from now, not one week, or we're not seeing them in person. So one was on a phone, someone else is doing zoom and different levels of attention. I think you and I were talking before about kids in class on their computers, they do that during the therapy session, too, right? Talking to their therapist, and, you know, laughing at their texts. So I worry. And I also think that I also don't want to panic parents, because kids are out of their element right now. So yes, there's going to be anxiety. And yes, there's going to be depression. But if your child wasn't attending to the computer screen to start with, the fact that they're not attending now might not be a negative sign. Yes, very good point. But so were we are in a place where we're not going to see our doctors. And so for somebody who wants to seek professional help, where do they go? I mean, we're at home. Yeah,

Dr. Marney White 31:06

there are a lot of good resources for finding a therapist. Psychology Today is a database that's free for searching and find and you can search by geographic area or zip code. But they now have a different level of allowing to search for clinicians based on whether or not conditions are set up to provide teletherapy. So and some states have even opened up with respect to reciprocity for licensure. So typically, one could only seek out a therapist who is licensed in their state. But some of that has become more variable or is opened up. There are also lots of research centers that would ordinarily enroll participants from the community who are now able to provide free treatments to a much broader catchment, because all of the interventions are being provided online through telehealth,

Dana Jonson 31:54

right. That's great. That is such a wonderful thing. And I, a couple years ago, I'd asked a friend of mine, because I couldn't find a therapist for my son, he's, he's LGBTQ. And we couldn't we just didn't find somebody who was matching what he needed. So a friend of mine had said, he's like, Well, telehealth is not a bad thing. And I remember thinking, ooh, online therapy? I don't think so. And now I think it's great. That was two years ago. But at two, he'd said that, you know, that was the direction that this was going anyway. So I think this catapulted us in?

Dr. Marney White 32:27

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's that's kind of another silver lining of of this is that I think that now services will be much more readily available to people who might not have otherwise been able to access them, both because they can be delivered more affordably. And even just to geographic distance now. So when we come out of this, it is my hope that not only will the therapy be more accessible, but possibly education as well.

Dana Jonson 32:52

That would be amazing. The takeaways that I've got here are preventative medicine is always the best. Don't wait till you're in a crisis. But if you find what works for you, it's not one size fits all, find what works for you, and start slow. Eventually, it'll become a habit. And if you need real help, we can get it now online without leaving your house. And I'm going to put the Psychology Today, Lincoln websites in the show notes. So anybody listening to this, who wants to go find that information can? And is there anything else that you'd like to leave us with?

Dr. Marney White 33:28

I guess just the the one conclusion would be that we've actually done research on these self care practices.

Dana Jonson 33:37

It's a really good point.

Dr. Marney White 33:38

Through the class that I that we've been teaching, which is colloquially called the self care class, but in formal practice is actually called health behavior change or foundations of health behavior change. And we've tracked the students the Enrolled Students experience and depression, anxiety and stress as well as their overall perception and their physical health and well being, and have found that just engaging in these self care practices, which are self identified, they're variable across days, students set their own goals with respect to health improvement projects of engaging in small behavior every day, and it predicts improvements and all of those domains depression, anxiety, stress, and general physical well being. I know it's very exciting. And that's, of course, compared to students who were not enrolled, but in the same in the same graduate program. They're just experiencing improvements in all those. So it's very exciting. And then recently, actually, in March, Yale partnered with Coursera, which is an online massive online education community, where individuals anywhere can can sign on and take this distance learning class. And so it is now available to anyone. And right now there are a few 1000 Students taking it and posting their daily behavior change goals and getting kind of community support and doing it than any outcomes yet as to whether or not it's as effective as the the Yale version. But every indication would be that it shouldn't be because it's the exact same class.

Dana Jonson 35:17

Oh, wow. No, that is good. And I'm glad you did say that. Because I do always say that we just happen to not say the words that there's science behind this. This is not just some hokey, we think this will work. There is actual science behind it. You can change your behaviors and improve your quality of life. And you just got to start small and start slow.

Dr. Marney White 35:38

Yes, yes. Yeah,

Dana Jonson 35:41

fantastic. Well, if you give me the links for that, I will have that in the show notes. The links for where to find professional help if you need it. And check that out and check out Dr. Marney White. Thank you so much, Dr. White.

Dr. Marney White 35:54

Oh, thanks for having me. Have a lovely day.

Dana Jonson 35:57

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications when new episodes come out. And I want to know what you want to know. So join our Facebook group also named need to know with Dana Jonson or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. But definitely reach out with your comments and questions and I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a fabulous day

What is compensatory education (comp ed) and who needs to know about it? It's what children with disabilities are entitled to when they don't get the services in their IEP (sound like anyone you know?) and the person who needs to know about it is YOU! Comp ed is educational services awarded to students with disabilities to make up for services they missed because of the school's failure to provide a free appropriate public education (FAPE). Under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), students are entitled to these services not only to make up for missed hours but to bring a student back up to where they would have been had they received the services in the first place. Hearing offices and courts may grant comp ed service to students with disabilities when the school failed to provide FAPE. Typically, compensatory service are provided outside of regular ongoing services. Today we speak with Piper Paul, another veteran special education attorney, about what compensatory services are, why you may need them, and how they will apply in our "new normal." You can find more about Piper on her website: www.piperpaullaw.com

Episode Link: https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/can-you-comp-my-ed

TRANSCRIPT (NOT PROOFREAD)

SUMMARY KEYWORDSparents, child, attorney, hearing, district, work, connecticut, school districts, services, iep, education, advocates, compensatory, law, recording, agree, distance learning, waivers, question, student

SPEAKERSDana Jonson, Piper Paul

Dana Jonson 00:02

Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson and I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IEPs. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I've approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear, comment on, join our Facebook group, it's aptly named need to know Dana Jonson, or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. Okay, let's get started. Today we're meeting with Piper Paul, who is a parent side special education attorney in private practice in Connecticut. Hello, Piper. Hello, thank you so much for joining me. I asked you to come on here today because I wanted to talk about compensatory education. And I think compensatory education is not something that people usually understand fully in normal times. But now we're hearing this term all the time. You know, parents are hearing it from school districts from other parents. We're hearing it. So I want to talk to you because I saw you on a webinar. Well, I also know you very well, you on a on a webinar talking about this. And I really think it's important for parents to understand the concept of compensatory education, what it means, how we use it, and how it will apply moving forward under these unique bizarre circumstances of the COVID closures. So why don't you first tell us a little bit about yourself. You're a special ed attorney and how you got there. So people know your background. You've been doing this for a long time,

Piper Paul 02:01

or Thank you. So I'm from a small town in the Midwest, I end up being a dancer and went to NYU School, the Arts where I also double majored in psychology. I went on to law school and I ultimately became a prosecutor in New York City where I was in homicide. Wow, moved to the burbs and did some divorce law and ended up starting a special education law practice that I've been doing for over 15 years. Yeah, that's how I ended up here.

Dana Jonson 02:28

Now let's talk about compensatory education. What is compensatory education?

Piper Paul 02:33

That's a great question. And there's a lot of misinformation and conflicting information out there. What it is, is that when services are not delivered, you have to look at what was missed. And it's an equitable remedy to put the student in the same position they would have been had the services been delivered, it can take many forms. Let's say your child has speech and language three times a week for 30 minutes, but during the pandemic, they've not received any services. So quarter of equity would determine whether or not you should receive our per hour of what was missed. And then another way to look at is what what were you working on? And has there been regression. So it's a creative remedy, that's often decided by hearing officer you're in hearing or if you're in hearing, or now there will be an onus for the parents to work with the district to come up with what the compensatory education services should look like.

Dana Jonson 03:30

So if a parent like if you're supposed to get speech and language, as you said, like twice a week, and you don't get it, that's a very obvious example. Right? So you didn't get two hours of speech, you need two hours of speech. I remember several years ago, one of the town's could not find an OT at all. They just they couldn't find one to interview. And this went on for an extended period of time. And so what some of my clients did was they went and they said, we'll get it privately, and you pay for it. And they agreed to that, because they really didn't have a choice. But that was a very simple, okay, you're missing these exact hours, we need those hours back. But when services are missed for a long period of time, for any reason, because it doesn't just have to be that services were offered and not provided, right?

Piper Paul 04:15

That's correct. It could be a child fund violation, work with children that weren't diagnosed with autism until they were 15 years old. Right, from the services.

Dana Jonson 04:24

And I think we're going to see a lot of that now. Because particularly well, I want to talk about how combat applies now, because I'm hearing a lot of people say, and I want to make sure parents understand what it is and how they use it. So yes, the one to one the hour by hour is one way to do it. Like you said, if there's regression, the law is meant to bring the child back up, right? Where would they be had they got those services? So if they've gotten hours of speech a week, where would they be? And maybe now that means three hours of speech a week, right? Maybe not two, maybe three, and how we adjust that. So how would parents know if they have In case for combat?

Piper Paul 05:01

That's a great question. I think what's really pivotal right now is for parents, who are extremely overworked and overwhelmed, to try to keep a log of data. And note the services that are actually delivered on what days by whom. And to try to keep track what related services were actually provided speech ot note that that's one way. Another is is to observe yourself what's going on with your child, it's possible that some kids are going to actually make progress in areas like independent living skills, perhaps some language skills, self help skills, adaptive skills. So that's important to note. Also, going back, I have a concern, because some districts are saying, we're just going to evaluate everyone and do assessments and then we'll make determinations on earth is that going to happen? That's number one. And number two, the concern is the delay that this is going to cause. So there's a strong argument to be made, the data comes in many forms, and the data provided from the parents by what they're observing, as well as what the teachers were observing online. For instance, today, I was in a virtual PPT, when found out the students not been logging on at all. Well, those are all missed services. And why

Dana Jonson 06:20

then is the argument well, they chose not to take the services is that what the school district is saying? So

Piper Paul 06:26

they may try to do that. But that is not a liberal argument. So the argument would be that it is showing exactly where the student's present level of performance is. They're unable to actually access that. It could be executive functioning, it could be mental health, it could be cognitive, in some cases. That's the question. So if the student is not accessing or signing on, you may want to ask why. And today, the court it came out that it was mental health, which was very fair, the district to speak up and address that. Yeah. And then that's going to that's going to end up needing having a child need to be in a different program. Right.

Dana Jonson 07:03

And I think that the other component to that, as you were saying child find is I think we're discovering deficits children had that we didn't know they had. Absolutely right. So I think there's going to be a lot of Child Find coming out of this. What would you recommend to parents who feel like they have now suddenly discovered their child has issues?

Piper Paul 07:24

That's a great question, you need to document it. So you need to write a constructive email to the district noting my child, for instance, is shut down. My child cannot focus more than five minutes. My child is having difficulty doing say math work without prompting, my child just jumped on the table and off the deck. I mean, all those kinds of things. I'm concerned,

Dana Jonson 07:47

data isn't just numbers. Oh,

Piper Paul 07:50

that's fantastic.

07:51

I've heard that term a lot. And I think it overwhelms parents sometimes, because they think in their head, they're like, should I be, you know, checking boxes and stuff like that. And one of the things I've been saying is no, if you have your little notebook that you're keeping all your information in, you know, even if the only thing you write down is today, socked, nothing done, got nothing done. Just do that, because you'll get in the habit of doing it. And you'll be able to document more and more as you go, but you can

Piper Paul 08:16

make a data sheet date time services delivered.

Dana Jonson 08:20

tons of them out there. I know seek of Connecticut has one on their website. Lots of attorney sites have them too. But yeah, collecting the data is very critical. Why are children now going to be eligible for compensatory education? Because we're hearing from school districts that we're not talking about this education? Because this isn't I don't know what it is. Is it magic education? It's it's secret education? I don't know because we're not talking about it and IEP meetings, right. There's a strong reluctance to talk about distance learning. So how can a parent argue that they need compensatory education when their kid has already been provided something completely separate from their IEP?

Piper Paul 09:02

So Betsy DeVos, put out a great report. And basically, there's no waivers, or there's a waiver for Birth to Three, there's some vocational issues, but there are no waivers regarding comp, EAD or FAPE. So the district can say what they may want to say. But right now, that's not the law. The law has not changed. These are civil rights laws, and their rights for people with disabilities that are in existence. So I've actually had that experience a couple times in PPTs, by the way, in Connecticut, for me, just started for the first time two days ago, the district just shut down all meetings.

09:40

Yeah. First virtual PPTs. Listening was not in Connecticut. PBTS are what we call IEP meetings here, or art or CSCs. Or, yeah, that I mean, we're just starting back and what are we seven weeks in?

Piper Paul 09:54

Yeah, so that's an issue in and of itself that that's what Connecticut chose to do in New York City. either having hearings. So it's the fact that the parent has a right to participate in it's a procedural violation because they're not allowing participation from the parents. And they're not addressing children's needs. So those are going to be significant concerns in the virtual PPTs that you have, you need to address what's going on. And I'm gonna tell you as an attorney, I'm, I'm getting told no, but you asked it the records that you agree to disagree. For instance, a student was now hospitalized because they had such a difficult problem behaviorally. And I asked for the debt be acknowledged, and how is this going to work in the program and the district, so we're not talking about it. And another meeting, I said, no services are being delivered at all. So you have this proposed document, we're not going to talk about it, or an ESI program? Well, it looks like we could still be virtual, what is the contingency plan? You need to ask for contingency plans in your IEPs? Or your 504? Plans? should we still be remote or if we're remote, we changed I think the whole structure of the of these documents has to change, you have to have two plans, right?

Dana Jonson 11:10

We need a second, like a backup, like a plan based on your IP, just like a behavior plan, right? We just attach to the IEP, when we go into distance learning, this is what we have agreed this child gets. And that can change. Right? That's part of their faith. So one of the things I'm hearing from parents is, they're being told you don't get the same services that are in your IEP. And on some level, that's true, because we're not in the building, right. So for example, my child has a number of special ed hours in her IEP, she's not getting those, right, don't get me wrong, she's getting services and all of that, I just mean that she's not in that building in that schedule. So she can't meet those special ed hours. Right. And so we're being told, and we just mean, parents in general, is that's how we do it for distance learning, but we're not documenting it, and we're not talking about it. So I have

Piper Paul 12:07

a major concern with this, when you look at some of the private schools, special ed schools, here, they go from 9am till 3pm Plus related services, it's a choice that districts are making. And I don't think it's okay. So

Dana Jonson 12:22

three children are in an alternative program, and then in classes all day to adjust the workloads that is more appropriate for having to be on a computer all day. You know, one of my daughter's actually just before we started talking, took her laptop outside, because she's supposed to be in an outdoor club. And so on Thursdays, they have them take their laptops outside, and they do outdoor clubs.

Piper Paul 12:44

You know, I'm going to say something goes a little sideways on the topic regarding remote learning. It's the idea that some of these companies, the programs, they're they're not really secure, and that data is scraped, it's taken. And then it's sold to other companies. So for instance, Connecticut stopped the use of zoom, or Westport stop the use of zoom, because there was not an agreement for that information not to be scraped and shared. And I think the state's now using new platform, I forgot which one it is for mediations, and

Dana Jonson 13:18

I know they're using Microsoft meetings at this point in

Piper Paul 13:21

Connecticut, you have to ask those questions, what have they done so that the data is not shared?

Dana Jonson 13:25

Or taken? Interesting? I didn't realize that. So doesn't zoom have a HIPAA compliant subscription, though, before you have to pay for it. So that's why the schools aren't doing it. They don't want to pay for it.

Piper Paul 13:37

I don't know. I mean, did they and that's just sit so and in HIPAA, HIPAA merges into FERPA when your child has other issues. So is it HIPAA compliant in the way that things are being recorded? That's interesting.

Dana Jonson 13:49

I hadn't really thought of that. There is a lot of questions about we can't provide services because some staff won't go on camera. They won't go on Zoom. How do you address those things?

Piper Paul 14:01

That's not then they have to find someone else. Yeah. Wages, wages.

Dana Jonson 14:06

Yeah. I'm not really clear. I understand why there's, there's so much reluctance to it because I think it could be so successful,

Piper Paul 14:13

well, actually sort of circling back in a way maybe it's not outrageous. But if if they know that the site is HIPAA compliant, and the data is not being scraped or sold, maybe that's their concern. So find out what their concern is, it may be very legitimate, and then ensure that it's protected site. And maybe that's where that's coming from. I don't know.

Dana Jonson 14:37

So when we're going back to talking about comp, Ed, I know, there was a case many years ago where the comp Ed took the form of training for the staff, that's where it's requested because their child had aged out and by the time they got to their comp, Ed, and that was the request. So I'm wondering as well, if parents can be creative with what they're asked. screen for in combat. This part of the problem is just that understanding, you know, staff aren't willing to get on camera because they don't understand what the safety measures are that have been taken or I know some districts have said it's in the collective bargaining agreement. But our problem is problems. It's in the collective bargaining agreement, go read the collective bargaining agreement, because it's not always.

Piper Paul 15:23

Well, that doesn't trump the federal law. So we have federal, we're talking federal law here. That's true,

Dana Jonson 15:28

too. Yes. So the IDA covers everybody, it has not been waived. Right. We all have our full the full extent. So do you have any cases right now that you're setting up for combat that you're helping set up that that you could explain?

Piper Paul 15:44

Pretty much all of them?

Dana Jonson 15:47

Narrow it down?

Piper Paul 15:49

So you asked an interesting question, what could comp Ed look like? And what's important to know about compensatory education is the rights never go away, even after the child ages out? So I've had a case before where the child was 24 years old, and I took the case. So training, it could be vocational services, it could be academics, it could be adaptive learning, I mean, you in the thing, because it's a remedy. It's an equitable remedy. There can be a lot of creativity. So what happens if you were in a hearing as you were presented to the hearing officer, the hearing officer determined compensatory education should be awarded, it's at their discretion to determine what that would look like. It can also be private placement, outplacement, what I'm finding is the virtual PPTs are extraordinarily helpful to put your detective hat on and advocate for what you need now. Because the end date of this time, location is unknown. And when you ask for Behavior Intervention Plan, because the student is shutting down, and there's known FBA with known behaviors, which are going on at home, and the teachers can see it and says, Nope, we're not going to do that. Or you ask for changes to an IEP, Nope, we're not gonna need to do that until we get back in school, though, you're now raising major red flags that can lead to compensatory education, you have to take the child where they are

Dana Jonson 17:14

not supported by the law. I think that's what really needs to get across to parents is that those decisions to not hold PPTs or IEP meetings at all, to not provide special ed to reduce services that none of that is supported by the law? Well, right. Not at all. And I think what happened were school districts were hoping for waivers. So they decided to act as if they were going to get them. And then they didn't, right. So now we have this backlog. You know,

Piper Paul 17:42

we really are all in a in a horrendous situation right now. And we need to get it come together as a community. But understanding is there still getting paid after administration? So creative ways that school districts have to come up with on how teachers can actually deliver services? Is it recording? Is it set blocks to the alternate days? What are they actually doing to come up with a solution?

Dana Jonson 18:06

So another thing that I've recommended to clients too, because I've seen this work in the past, but it's different now. Because everybody is going to their districts now and saying, Look, you have not been able to provide, let's say it's OT or the distance OT is not working for my child. What if we go to our OT over here? And you just reimburse us for it? Absolutely. We won't have any compensatory education claims. You know, we'll just agree now that that's what will happen. How are you advising parents to handle that kind of agreement? Because I get really worried when I hear parents say they're making that bargain, because I'm afraid they're giving up their rights?

Piper Paul 18:44

Yeah, I would say absolutely no waivers. Unless you talk to an attorney, or you know, very experienced advocate, but it's really you're in the legal arena, you need to talk to an attorney. So no, don't agree to the waivers unless you really understand all your rights that you are giving up. I think it you could ask in writing that you receive the services outside if they're not going to provide them. And I think I want to say something about recording and netiquette. You cannot tape record a phone conversation without the other person knowing. In New York, you can but not in Connecticut. So I think it's important to tape record, but you have to let the district know, if you're on the phone. If you're in person, you do not have to tell them. But you have to be in person, an active participant in CONNECTICUT,

Dana Jonson 19:32

Connecticut. So because I'm just confused by this. So you're saying that if you're in an in person meet No, we have to tell school districts that we record

Piper Paul 19:40

Well, you do not not legally under the law. Really, really?

Dana Jonson 19:44

I'm learning something new here. Yes, you do. Not interesting. If you're in person, you do not have to let them know that you're recording

Piper Paul 19:51

and you're part of the conversation. Interesting, but on the phone you do, literally it's actually a misdemeanor, but not if you're in New York. So if you're in New York And you call Connecticut. You don't have to let the person know you're recording.

Dana Jonson 20:03

They just crossed the border now. Just kidding.

Piper Paul 20:06

Yeah, you know, I mean, I think it's right to let them know, recording and to volunteer to give a copy of the recording, should they also like one? A lot of times, there's so much information presented, it's really hard to keep track of.

Dana Jonson 20:21

Yeah. And that actually in PPTs, where I've shown up, and maybe I didn't either have the opportunity or didn't realize that we were going to record so I hadn't told the district yet. And they're like, I don't know why that's the hardest thing. It's like one of the hardest things in PBTS is to get them to find a tape recorder. It's ridiculous.

Piper Paul 20:38

But the voice memo on iPhone works beautifully.

Dana Jonson 20:42

What I've done is I use my phone, and then I email it to them before we leave. Yeah, exactly. Perfect. And then I'll be the recording person, and then I'll email it to you. If you want to use your phone. You can it doesn't matter. So unreleased

Piper Paul 20:56

anything, it just helps to if people want to go back and listen, if there was a discrepancy, or they thought they didn't understand something, some people find it very helpful.

Dana Jonson 21:06

I do too. I think it's I do think it's good for parents, because I think sometimes you get so much information. And I also think that miscommunications can happen, absolutely, and mis understandings. So you might walk away thinking one thing, and the district thought something else. And sometimes just coming down to well, this is what was actually said helps helps eradicate the issue. But I also agree with you with the amount of information they get, there's just no way to maintain it. And then you're also emotional because it's your child. So we're in an emotional field. And I think parents forget sometimes to ask for the things they want to ask for to. That's true, because they may get derailed on a conversation. And they may feel that they made it clear to the team. But maybe they didn't write because it was in their head.

Piper Paul 21:50

And on the district side. I mean, there's a person recording the minutes, and they're kind of in the same boat, trying to keep track of everything I noticed. Oftentimes parents are extraordinarily frustrated with minutes because they think things were missed. You always asked to do an addendum, it'd be attached to the PPT IEP. And make a note of any thing that you disagree with.

Dana Jonson 22:09

Yeah, I always recommend that follow up any meeting with a note, an email, a paper trail, summarizing what you believe came out of the meeting, and saying, you know, thank you, and this is what I see happening moving forward. Because that gives you an opportunity to share your interpretation of what happened. And for them to I mean, I do also recommend that parents when they are talking with districts take that extra seconds to repeat what they heard. That's wonderful. Yeah, take that extra time and say, let me make sure I understand you and repeat what you heard. And if what you heard was different, they'll correct you.

Piper Paul 22:42

I think there's a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding of the law out there. People are often well meaning but wrong information is being conveyed. Again, our laws are still here, they've not changed.

Dana Jonson 22:55

Right? And I think it's it's it's frustrating for parents, because as we were talking about before, you know, parents of children with disabilities have been flexible and cooperative from day one, right from the day of the diagnosis. You're usually if you're in special ed, it's because regular education doesn't work for you. And now that everyone in regular education, it's not working for them either. Now everyone's all up in arms. Right? So now it's an emergency because regular ed kids can't access their education. So now we're all in panic mode. So I think it's frustrating for parents to hear. And I know they're hearing it a lot, because I've said it too. We're not going to get a lot of sympathy for that case, right? Or, you know, your case isn't very strong, it would have been strong six months ago. But now that we have this and all these other cases coming down, it's not that strong, or you know, it's not worth the time. What do you say to that?

Piper Paul 23:42

Oh, I think that's absolutely wrong. So you have to if anything, you would note regression in certain. And again, you always have to look at the positive and the positive areas, but there's likely going to be tremendous regression for some, some students in certain areas. And no, it's not gone, it just increased most likely in certain areas.

Dana Jonson 24:01

And I do agree that we are we as attorneys, not the parents, but we as attorneys, when we get to that next stage, and you and I are talking a lot about hearing officers and hearings. And it's important for parents to understand, we have to consider that right. Every case that comes to my door. I'm thinking at every step, when I'm in front of a hearing officer, how does this look? And that's why the vast majority of our cases do not go to full blown due process hearings, because we're thinking of that ahead. And we're advising our parents ahead of time.

Piper Paul 24:31

Well, I've to say something kind of funny. I have a different theory on that. Okay. And I think that they don't go to hearing because the districts do a cost benefit analysis and don't want to take the risk of losing and having to pay all the attorneys fees, plus what they'd have to pay to their staff and administration and all the time loss. So I think it's I often think of this in terms of money, unfortunately. And I think this applies

Dana Jonson 24:57

well, and that that is a fair point because it really does come to don't have money it's not supposed to do but it always does. And we know it. And yes, there are lots of stimulus packages coming out. But Special Ed isn't funded properly

Piper Paul 25:08

to start with. That's true. That's very hard for districts. So districts

Dana Jonson 25:11

don't get the money from the federal government that they need to implement. They're being held responsible, but they're not being given the resources to do it. So we all have to remember that when we're talking and thinking about going to a hearing down the road, it's it's in a preventative way. I don't want people to think that if they want combat, they have to go to a hearing. Well, oh, well, somewhat subtle.

Piper Paul 25:35

So the vast majority

Dana Jonson 25:37

has majority saddle. And I think districts motivated right now, to do that, if you come to the district with a solution, you've just done time. So you know, that that I have been recommending that parents come up with more than one, right, come up with a couple of options and say, These are my options for filling in these missing services. And if you've come to them with solutions, and they've rejected all of them, and they're not providing something different, that creates that paper trail that we need, as attorneys that says these services weren't provided any of your formula might not be clear ours, we can document that there was an issue, it was discussed, solutions were offered, and nothing happened. Right?

Piper Paul 26:28

Absolutely. One thing, and what's important to know is under 504, you have a right to FAPE, as well. So there's requirements for free appropriate public education. And I think we're also going to have compensatory education claims in this area, for instance, say that a child needed to have assistive technology or certain modifications or accommodations, and then work provided. So as a result of that they couldn't access their education. So that could be a compensatory action. I think it doesn't just apply to students with IEPs. Oh,

Dana Jonson 26:59

yes. And that's a very good point, because 504 also has an obligation to evaluate. Absolutely. That gets skipped over a lot to Yes. I tell parents, if you're asking when school districts are saying no. So Well, then let's evaluate them for special education. Right. But that assumption is you're still entitled to that under 504. Now, 504 doesn't have the same rules that the IDE does. There's a lot more meat to the Ida and a lot more protections to the IDA. But under 504 parents still have rights. Absolutely. And they could still get compensatory education. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. So that's actually what I was going to ask. Because for students where they are receiving everything, let's say they appear to be engaging, and they are whatever the services are, are able to be provided this way. But they're not making any progress. Is that combat?

Piper Paul 27:51

That can be yes. So the question is, how were the services delivered, and that they needed to be altered and modified in order to address the unique learning challenges that the child has. So just going through the motions is not going to do the trick. And I like what you said, Dana is working with districts and trying to come up with solutions. But I don't think you should be signing waivers until you talk to an attorney.

Dana Jonson 28:16

Now, I mean, when I've had clients do that they were my client when they did it. So it was it was something I oversaw, and, and negotiated with them. But yes, as as, as a parent acting on behalf of your child on your own, you certainly want to get anything like that in writing and an email is writing Absolutely. tell parents that too. It doesn't have to be handwriting and email can be writing, if you have that agreement. It's it's binding.

Piper Paul 28:41

Absolutely. So one thing you said talking about, like, what would compensatory education look like for a student with an IEP or something, I think you have to keep in mind the purpose of Ida, which is independent living, to the extent possible to go on to further education or to be employed. So if you're wondering, you know, sort of observe those areas of your child, can you how independent is my child? Is my child going to be able to keep job? Is my child going to be able to go to on to further education? Can they access the technology? Can they stay focused? Can they get up in the morning on time? Can they tell time can all those kinds of things you could sort of put into a framework of skills and needed areas that either they've gotten better or they've gotten worse?

Dana Jonson 29:27

Right? And I like that you said get up on time. One of the things I've heard recently and quite a bit actually, is when I hear people talking about children with disabilities going to college, and what skill set they need and I've been in two different I think seminars now where they said if your child does not wake up independently, take their meds if needed, complete any hygiene routine needed, get out the door on their own 100% independent do not send them to college and they don't care if they have a disability or not. And Net by eighth grade, and I did not know this, but by eighth grade, those are skills a child should either obtain or be obtaining. Right. And, you know, that's, that's for any kid. Right? Right.

Piper Paul 30:11

Great area to look at now, and a lot of times district will say that the ADLs, the daily living skills were fine. But are they? And that's something you can observe now and see.

Dana Jonson 30:20

So what do you say to parents when they've been bringing concerns to the school district? Right? You bring these concerns? And they say, Well, I don't see that at school. We don't see that. It's not happening here. So we don't know how to assess for it or address it. We just don't see it at all. Well, now the kids home, this is their classroom. So apparently,

Piper Paul 30:37

the child has two personalities. Yes. Clearly, it's I find it incredibly insulting toward my clients. And children are not that savvy. And a lot of times, not a lot of times, sometimes districts will blame families. We don't see that at home. We only see it here. Look at the child's IEP. Is it one of their goals that they have to learn how to walk down a hallway on their own? And that they have a parent with them all the time? I mean, what are we really are we talking apples to apples, apples to oranges, follow your gut, don't let the onus or the burden be put onto the parent, it's about the child and blame is not helpful.

Dana Jonson 31:16

No, blame is not helpful. That's a very good point. It does sometimes make us feel a little better as parents. It's not productive.

Piper Paul 31:25

Interesting. I thought it would be the opposite. I thought it would be that it wouldn't make the parents feel badly because they weren't maybe doing the right

Dana Jonson 31:33

thing. Oh, that's so funny. I was thinking blaming the other direction.

Piper Paul 31:37

I love it. You and I we have different just as great views on some. Oh, I I usually my parents are pretty upset when they hear that. But I love the opposite way. Yeah.

Dana Jonson 31:48

I mean, I you know, sometimes I have to get my parents to stop, you know, okay, we blamed them enough. Let's take it down a notch. You know, because as a parent, you question yourself all the time, no matter what right? Am I doing the right thing? Is this right for my child? How badly Am I screwing them up? You know, how much do I have to save for therapy later? But yeah, and so it's hard when you hear school districts say they don't see something? It's like you're being gaslighted.

Piper Paul 32:12

So what you want to try to do? Yes. What do you want to try to do then is glance in advance of the IEP and look at something like, let's say it says that your child can tie their shoelaces, but you know, they can't, or they can't at home? Like that doesn't make any sense. So ask specific questions. So who actually is seeing, you know, ami tire shoes? And how many prompts? And how much time does it take, and then you're likely going to find out, it's like 15 prompts and like, five minutes or 20 minutes. So those questions and to try to just go into detective mode, agree to disagree, I always try to do this, I fail sometimes and get extraordinarily frustrated. But that's not helpful to anybody. So just trying to agree to disagree. And whenever you're so there's, so for instance, let's say somebody says they never see behaviors in your child. But you know, the year before 911 was called because they knocked over all the desks. So follow the truth of what you know, to be true. So let's say you see incredible behaviors, biting, kicking, in all kinds of things at home. And they said, Well, we never see that. You need to go to DDS, or DCF, for you know, trying to pass it off to another organization. You know, that's not true.

Dana Jonson 33:29

tunity to capture those things, they may say

Piper Paul 33:33

that they're still seeing it, or they're not recording it, right. So if you know, you've had conversation with the bus driver, because your kid, you know, is kicking in and throwing things, and then you ask, and it's an ongoing problem. And you say, Well, what are you doing about it, and they're like, We have no reports, try to figure out where the breakdown is. Or if your child attacked a teacher and fit them the year before. And they're like, We never see behaviors, remind them of what happened. Or if they say that nothing ever happens, but you know, your child just punched an aide in the face, ask the aide if they're there, if that happened, and then show that try to show where the disconnect is why is this pivotal information not being recorded in school?

Dana Jonson 34:17

Right. And I think that's the main issue is the documentation. Because someone comes to my office, if it's not documented, it didn't happen. So to make sure that the paperwork that if you go to an IEP meeting, even if it's virtual now, and you make requests, or you're told that you can't talk about things, you want to make sure that that document says it absolutely. I want a parent to come to me and say in this IEP, it says parent requested discussion of current program, school district refused,

Piper Paul 34:47

right? Parent requested. There was an issue regarding assessments and districts are saying that they can't do any well, they can't do some. There's assessment that can be done without one on one. When

Dana Jonson 34:59

the testing come The knees are relaxing those protocols now and stating that they are capable of being done certain ones, not all of them, but that a number of them actually can be done with fidelity via zoom or the telephone or whichever way it is. But they have to note it in the report just has to be noted in the report that this is how was conducted,

Piper Paul 35:19

the district's argument is why would we do that? Now, that's not going to be reliable? Because this is a whole different environment. And in that's a delay tactic. No, it needs to be done now.

Dana Jonson 35:30

Okay. When will we be back in the building? That would be my next question, I don't know. But, oh, then you need to create a program right now.

Piper Paul 35:37

Right? Because the key is it's always present levels of performance and where the child is now. And that's what we need that information documentation, we also need to be creating these programs. Once we get back to school, should this happen again? Which it likely will,

Dana Jonson 35:54

yes, it will likely happen again. And I think that even if we don't have a global pandemic, which knock on wood, I hope we don't. But even if we don't have a global pandemic, I think the fact that we can do this distance learning, it's been a bit of a nightmare. But if people are getting into a groove, we now know that it does work for a large portion of the population, we are still working towards workarounds for those for whom it doesn't work. But think that it's going to be utilized more. For like the year we had the all those hurricanes. And we were home a lot and the schools were trying to figure out how to do distance learning. I think when we have issues like that, we're going right back to distance learning,

Piper Paul 36:34

or how about kids with medical vulnerabilities, there's been times that I know that I've requested that, that there be you know, the the it'd be recorded, it's always well, there's violations of FERPA like, but now they're doing whole classrooms and sharing with older children, did they get waivers on that It either is a violation of FERPA or it's not a violation of FERPA. So I, you know, I think we need to update the technology so that it's safe, inform the parents, you have to inform the parents of their rights, and then start just really education through the technology. Some people some places use TV stations.

Dana Jonson 37:11

Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I think the other thing for parents to remember is, even for those who are hardcore, committed to sending their kids to school in September, no matter what, if schools open in September, we will still be social distancing. I agree. And so it's important for parents to think about that, how is their school going to social distance on September 1? And if in your head, you can't picture that, then there's a good chance it's not happening. Right. So they can't have every child in the school building and social distance? Yeah, I agree. physically not possible. So there is no way we are going back to 100%? Well, we're never going back to 100%. Like normal, right, that's changed. But I think it's changed for the better, because I think we're finding new innovative ways to work with kids. And for some kids, it's been astounding, I think I told you, I have a student, we're looking at residential placement, because the behaviors were so bad. And now after seven weeks of being home, the parents are saying, you know, we think there's a chance he doesn't need residential. Yeah. Right. And that's amazing. So let's figure out the difference. The kid like their school, the parents like their school. So it's not necessarily the school itself, right. It's what's different. What how is their program changed? What is working for this child? And maybe what we're focused on in the IEP isn't really what the kid needs? Yeah,

Piper Paul 38:41

I think it's a great, it's a great temperature gauge here to see what's actually going on with the student. And the environments that they flourish

Dana Jonson 38:48

flourish in. Yes. And I think it's really important for parents to just remind school districts that if they hear well, this is just temporary ask the question, then when will we be back? And if they can't answer that question for you, then you need a program? Yeah,

Piper Paul 39:03

I think you need a program. And I think that the argument should be let's we need to contingency plans, and then to really try to work with them collaboratively to come up with ideas. There's there's a lot of really talented teachers and staff and administrators and, and I hope at times there's been a tendency where people around the table did not speak up. And I hope that in the collaborative nature that that will change so that really, we can hear those creative ideas in brainstorming and working together.

Dana Jonson 39:34

The teachers and staff speak Yeah, I haven't had a virtual IP meeting yet. But what I've heard is because of the somewhat formal nature of it, because you're on video that they can present as the formal nature can be difficult for parents it might feel more adversarial because it has to be very formal and rigid. And so I'm trying to remind parents too, that that formality, it might feel less casual or less personal, but that's just the format. So to kind of keep that in mind that the format has changed.

Piper Paul 40:07

So you could do a couple of things. Oftentimes you can call in instead, if you don't want to go on the camera, or if you're on the camera, you can just like, like I was on a virtual call, I just like put the picture off, so nobody can see me because he's doing something, also, and then you can take your microphone down and just listen.

Dana Jonson 40:27

Right? Right. An interesting thing you said that I want to just touch on is, when we're talking about combat, you mentioned a highly skilled advocate. And then you corrected yourself and said, Go to an attorney. And I think this is a very important thing for parents to understand is that the compensatory education is a legal paradigm it is, and it's completely legal. So advocates, I think, can help you figure out what that combat might be yes, and how to make it happen. Yes, but you need to talk to an attorney to make sure you are properly setting it up and properly preserving your rights to get that compensatory education. And that is no offense to advocates in any way, shape, or form. And in Connecticut, we have some really great advocates are very well versed in the law, but they're not attorneys. And so I think for this piece, particularly compensatory education, parents need to they need to consult with attorneys. And I'm hopeful. I know we are in our office, and I'm hopeful that other attorneys are also adjusting, you know how they help parents because I think a lot of parents are going to need us for this limited scope, you know, for not, maybe they don't have a dispute in other areas of the program. But just in this either compensatory education slash distance learning component is where they're only an issue. And so we all have to adjust how we service parents a little bit, right, because usually we're taking cases that are going to hearing or you know, something along those lines that are at a high level of dispute, but these are on a smaller level, but parents are still going to need them. And you want to make sure you're doing it. Right.

Piper Paul 42:08

Right. I agree. And they can be, you know, could be a consultation, understanding what your rights are looking at documents. And sometimes, you know, I know that I work with several advocates. Yeah. And you know, just to double check.

Dana Jonson 42:20

I didn't mean every hire an attorney. That's not what I meant.

Piper Paul 42:24

Can you do I have a little bit of a, you know, I think there's tremendous advocates, but they can't provide advice on the law. So they do many really wonderful things and are very supportive and helpful. But like you said, this is a legal issue. And on there can be some significant repercussions in making the wrong decision. And I think if you hear the word labor, you should also hear the word attorney. And you can negotiate with attorneys, maybe a flat fee consultation, something, you know, and then you can make a decision.

Dana Jonson 42:55

Yeah. And we sell my office, we do coaching, so we do that. Yeah, well, we get a call, someone will call me and say, Oh, but we have a, you know, my child was just diagnosed with autism, and we don't need an attorney, but we might someday. So can you advise us behind the scenes, that kind of thing? Do that already. But I'm not an advocate. I don't do that component. And I think that's an important distinction. And when I said not everyone needs to hire an attorney and meant, yes, if you have compensatory education components, you must speak to an attorney. Don't wait six months, don't wait till we're back in school, give a call. I don't know, a single attorney who wouldn't talk to you, because we're all trying to get through this. As you said, they'll determine whether you need their support or not sure.

Piper Paul 43:39

You know, there's, there's all kinds of information out there. Some people are saying there is no compensatory education. That's not the language you should use. But Betsy DeVos is I hope I'm saying her name correctly, and what's coming down, we still have these laws in place, nothing's changed.

Dana Jonson 43:53

There's nothing has changed. There's still the protections, they're still entitled to last services, and entitled to fate moving forward. Because I think that's another component of this compensatory conversation

Piper Paul 44:06

is and what is that going to look like? We don't need to repeat the same errors. Let's get prepared. So we're not in this situation? Again.

Dana Jonson 44:15

Yeah. And also, you may have discovered completely new areas that your child needs assistance in or that other areas just aren't important,

Piper Paul 44:23

right? I think parents need to be kind to themselves. And you know, some people both could be first responders, they may not be sleeping, you know, so do the best you can and be kind to you.

Dana Jonson 44:37

Yeah, if you can't take care of yourself. You can't help somebody else it it's like the airbags on the airplane. Right? On your oxygen mask first, and then your kids. Absolutely. And that's the same thing now and you're 100% Correct. And, you know, for some students looking at Faith moving forward, what they are going to require after this may be very different and And in those cases, it might not be compensatory education, maybe what you're looking for is a new evaluation and a new program moving forward. So that's another reason to speak to an attorney. Because there are other strategies. If you give six of us attorneys the same case, we're going to walk away with six different strategies, that that's our job. It's our law, it's our job to be creative. And it's our job to understand all the angles of the argument. So we would have different strategies. And that's one of the reasons I think parents need to talk to an attorney because this is a legal component. And an attorney might say, you know, what, combat is not the way you want to go right now, your your child's in a different situation. And here's this other legal paradigm that I would recommend for you to pursue, right? Absolutely. Well know that if you don't talk to an attorney,

Piper Paul 45:51

well, and you can even talk to a couple because a couple of decimal points you Yeah,

Dana Jonson 45:56

I agree with that, too. Because I feel too, that these are your kids, it's so personal. You have to have faith in your attorney, and you have to be comfortable with them. So I do often recommend the parents talk to a couple different attorneys to see what their different perspectives are. And, you know, I always say Be wary, though, if you talk to like five attorneys, and they all disagree with you. And then you get one who's really gung ho, just maybe with a grain of salt.

Piper Paul 46:21

Well, the other thing that you need to do is be sure that you're talking to attorneys that are very experienced in this area. And we started private practice this year. Yeah.

Dana Jonson 46:35

And our do they exclusively practice? And when I say exclusively, I mean, they're only doing juvenile things. So for example, you do juvenile? I can't remember what do you do juvenile?

Piper Paul 46:45

And DCF? Yeah, or DCF. When it when it when it happens as a result of education cases, right? Rarely are there tulips, especially people

46:56

who do practice in those related areas of the law as it pertains to our children with disabilities. So, you know, when I say practices exclusively in special education, I'm including those attorneys who have a practice built around advocating for children in slightly different manners

Dana Jonson 47:16

from so I agree with that. So I think we hit everything I wanted to hit on compensatory education, I wanted to make sure that parents understood, this is a real legal paradigm, they are very likely entitled to it, the laws are in place, no rights have been waived. If you hear the word waiver, your red flags should go flying out. And if you are, if you have a child with special education needs, and you do not believe their needs are being met right now, for any reason, you need to consult with an attorney. Unfortunately, unfortunately, the first people who will get remedies from this COVID disaster will be those with attorneys. Second, will be the those who are the advocates, and then it's going to be those who spoke to attorneys and advocates, you know, there's going to be a long line at the end of this. But you know, maybe some people

Piper Paul 48:05

could work it out collaboratively. And you can always do that to, you know, well,

Dana Jonson 48:09

favourably, but there's still going to be resources that are going to be overloaded. So even if you work it out, and you agree to an evaluation, what evaluators doing those evaluations, what is their waiting list, you know, there are other components that factor into it that could come

Piper Paul 48:26

and we can't just wait for you guys and assessments to revise IEP s provide programs that can take months, thus I can work for the child.

Dana Jonson 48:35

Right. Right. So I think, you know, I want parents with disabilities to understand that they were already cooperative and flexible, and that they started there. So don't beat yourself up. And I have gotten a lot of calls from parents saying Can I ask for? And the answer is yes. You can ask for anything. I don't know if they'll give it to you. Or if you have a legal right to it until you talk to me. But you can ask for anything. Throw it out there. You know, schools are trying to figure this out too. Absolutely. So it's definitely worth a shot. Well, thank you so much, Piper, I really appreciate you joining me today. We have you back for other legal discussions. Well, thank

Piper Paul 49:17

you very much. And

Dana Jonson 49:20

my thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications when new episodes come out. And I want to know what you want to know. So join our Facebook group also named need to know with Dana Jonson or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. But definitely reach out with your comments and questions and I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a fabulous day

What is crisis schooling? Exactly what you are doing now!

Distance learning, educational opportunities, work packets, zoom sessions, and (in all your free time) don't forget you have to work too!

Catherine Whitcher is the founder of Master IEP Coach Mentorship®, a program that teach parents, educators, and any member of the IEP team how to build IEPs that truly prepare students for their future.

Catherine coined the phrase Crisis Schooling after hearing parent concerns about their child's IEP during the COVID-19 closures.

Today we discuss what Crisis Schooling really is, how to manage it, and how to prepare for what's next.

Related links: catherinewhitcher.com iepchecklist.com

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDSiep, child, parents, happen, special education, schooling, teachers, working, districts, crisis, school, document, teach, access, sitting, iep meeting, plan, education, baseline, learning

SPEAKERSKatherine Witcher, Dana Jonson

Dana Jonson 00:02

Hello, and welcome to need to know with Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson and I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IEPs. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I've approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear, comment on, join our Facebook group, it's aptly named need to know Dana Jonson, or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. Okay, let's get started. So today, we're talking with Katherine Witcher, who is the founder of the master IEP mentorship, program, or training. And I'm gonna have you talk a little bit more about that, because it's super exciting. Catherine is a special education sibling, so it's your brother correct your special needs, okay. And the reason I wanted to have you on is I have not done any podcasts that are specific to COVID-19. Because I feel like I want them to be somewhat timeless. And you know, all of this information is good whenever you get it. But I have been incorporating topics that I think really apply and help with COVID-19 and advice on COVID-19 as well as it pertains to those topics. But I came across your podcast the other day, or I don't know if it was yours, right? You're not? Yeah. And I came across it. And I was listening to it. And I Well, all I saw was crisis schooling, I saw the words crisis schooling, and I thought, Oh my God, that's exactly what we're doing right now. It is not homeschooling. And I have actually I have children. My children have been in parochial private Montessori, homeschooling, and public school, so and a special education school. So we've done literally everything. And this is nothing like any of those. So I loved the term crisis schooling, and I wanted to bring you on so we could talk about that, like just what's going on now and what we need to do to prepare for later.

Katherine Witcher 02:28

I appreciate you having me. Thank you. So crisis schooling, is exactly what I thought of when I looked around me. And you know, I have a similar background. As a mom, as you just mentioned, I didn't even know that you know about you. I'm a mom of two girls who are in high school who do not have IEPs. However, they have been through public school private school, Montessori School. And yes, we even homeschooled for a little bit in there. So we've done a lot of different schooling methods. And calling this homeschool is just not appropriate. When you homeschool. You get to choose what you teach, how you teach it, how in depth you go, you get to customize it to your children. It's actually a really great experience once you get into the rhythm of it. And this crisis schooling is it's a instant experience that nobody's had before. And quite honestly, I hope that when this is over that nobody has this again, that we have a better plan in place. For if and when this happens again.

Dana Jonson 03:36

Well, I think I really do think it well, I know, education is going to change forever, right? We don't know exactly how, but it is without question going to change forever. So I mean, I think back when we had the hurricanes, and we were out of school all that time those years, and they kept trying to figure out how could we be schooling from home so we don't miss the days. And so even little pieces like that are going to change. Even if we went back into full time brick and mortar schools, I think knowing that we can do this will change a lot

Katherine Witcher 04:10

about how we school. Absolutely. So I when I kind of coined the term crisis schooling for this, that came about because I was having a lot of conversations with parents and teachers and admins and therapists because that's where my niche is that it's anybody who sits at the IEP table, you know, a lot of people kind of work on one side of the table or the other. And I'm really working with everybody who sits at the IEP table. And I really like to break down the our words and special education and how we're using them and be really smart about it. So if you look at you know, ideal law and you say free and appropriate public education, we all know that that word appropriate is what causes all the tension. It causes all the arguments, it causes all the anxiety because what I think is appropriate is different than what you The thing is appropriate, which is different than what the principal thinks is appropriate. And nobody's necessarily wrong. It's just getting to a common ground on that word appropriate. And when all of this happened, I went appropriate just changed forever. You know, we haven't talked about this, but I'm going to bring up one of the hot topics that I talk about when it comes to appropriate and this falls right into crisis schooling and crisis schooling is not implementing an IEP crisis. schooling is prioritizing what needs to happen now. So you're ready for later. And one of the things about appropriate I'm talking all the time about appropriate IEP goals for the real world having a brother who's 42 with Down syndrome, it's important. I want

Dana Jonson 05:39

to talk about that, because what we didn't talk about yet is I wanted to talk about your master IEP coaching, so that people understand what we're talking about what it is you actually do. So if you could just sort of summarize those programs that

Katherine Witcher 05:51

you offer? Sure, absolutely. So I being a special needs sibling, I decided, when I was like 10 years old, I'm going to be a special education teacher, and I'm going to change the world from the inside of my classroom. You know, I watched my family struggle. I had these rose colored glasses on so I go get a bachelor's degree in a master's degree, and I'm in my classroom, and I went, oh, oh, behind the scenes, not so pretty. It wasn't the teachers who didn't want to provide an education. It's the system that had too much red tape. So I found myself teaching by day and coaching by night. So I started coaching parents. And then I started coaching my boss, and I started coaching the therapist. And then like, you know, what, if you say it this way, if you try it that way, if you write this down, and I'm all about asking really good questions, so somebody would say, Well, I don't know if we can do it this way, when it came to building an IEP, and I said, Well, where does it say you can't show me the policy that says that you can't do like, nobody says you can't? I said, well, then you can. So that's how this methodology kind of came about. And the other one I like is, why not? Yeah, why not?

Dana Jonson 06:56

Why not? I just don't understand why not?

Katherine Witcher 06:58

Yeah. And this goes for everyone. It goes, like I love teaching teachers to say, why can't I empowers them. I love teaching principals and admins and therapists to say, why couldn't I because we get these rules and habits, which are really not regulations. They're just rules of habits that we get in into. So what happened is, for the last 20 years, I was traveling and speaking and doing professional development and teaching parent groups, and I was in all these different kinds of camps that we have in special education, right? So I was in the professional camps. I was in the parent camps. I was always in camps. And people have been asking you, I want to learn to do what you do. And I kept them saying, No, I don't know how No, like, you don't want to do what I do. Like, like, I'm all over the place, right. And then I thought, You know what, no, people want to do what to do. And I'm going to teach them how to do it. And that's where the Master Ip coach mentorship came from. And as far as I know, we are the largest organization that has all sides working together. So having people that are employed by the school district, that our parents that are at home, we have like set parents, teachers, admins, and therapists who come into the mentorship and they learn strategies that work from all roles on the IEP team. And we implement those to ensure that every child is prepared for further education, employment, independent living. So our focus on our mentorship is really about that purpose and findings section where we say, meet a child's unique needs and prepare them for further education, employment, independent living. So when the world fell apart a few months ago, that was the opening that was the opening to say appropriate is going to change forever unique needs are more different than ever, and being prepared for the future is more important than ever.

Dana Jonson 08:48

Yeah, it is definitely. And so you offer this coaching for both schools, parents, therapists, and then you also do do a program that is just for parents, right that's specific to their needs.

Katherine Witcher 09:01

So actually, that's the IEP masterclass, and anybody sits at the IEP table is welcome in that too. So all of my programs are for everybody. Meaning that I don't train separately, I will say the same thing and a staff professional development that I would say in a parent support group, which means that I will say the same thing in the IEP masterclass, which is combined with the special education inner circle, I will say the same thing to everybody who's in there, because I want parents to understand the teacher struggles, teachers to understand the parent struggles and to come with common strategies. It to me, it's ridiculous that we send people off to separate trainings and we say here, you get these tools in your toolbox, and you get those tools in your toolbox. But I want you to come together and work on the same project.

Dana Jonson 09:46

Yes, I actually just I was speaking to a math math guy the other day he does just special ed math. And we were talking about how most people who write the math goals and objectives and IPs are not math teachers.

Katherine Witcher 10:00

May I also say that most people who make special education decisions have no special education experience.

Dana Jonson 10:05

There's that. But yes, so think about it. You know, we're so focused on getting the special ed people in there that we're not always getting in all the people we need, because disabilities impact kids across many topics, not just one.

Katherine Witcher 10:20

Absolutely, absolutely. And that's where we have to focus back on that word appropriate that I was talking about. Because, you know, when you talk about, you know, math goals, not being written by somebody who specializes in math is the same thing. As somebody who's writing a golden age for a child to be prepared as a young adult for the future, yet, they're not thinking about what the real world looks like. So like, I'm a big, and this goes with the crisis schooling too. So crisis schooling, and I know, that's why you reached out, we started this conversation. So crisis schooling is about prioritizing what a child needs now to stabilize, and what they need to support them to move through this crisis and be ready for when whatever this next step is, that's coming up when when that happens, we need to be ready for that. That also means crisis schooling means you get to eliminate what I call junk IEP goals. I mean, I'm a call it like, it is kind of person, there are junk IEP goals and most IPs, that doesn't mean that somebody had malicious intent and wrote a terrible IEP goal, because they don't believe in the child or they have low expectations. You know, those emotions are typically not there. When a poor IEP goal is written. It's more of an oversight of oh, I wasn't thinking about it in a different way.

Dana Jonson 11:41

A lot of times, that's what parents come to my office with, is there some issue? And usually it's communication is broken down, as you said, and then it got worse. And it wasn't like you said, because it wasn't because someone was malicious or mean, sometimes maybe they were, I'm just gonna say, but usually, it's an issue of, you know, two different perspectives, two different perceptions, or two different obligations, and a lack of communication over it.

Katherine Witcher 12:11

Yep. And that lack of communication is becoming more and more apparent through this crisis schooling. We have some districts that are, you know, right on top of this, even if they're not doing a great job at crisis, schooling support in the way of implementing maybe strategies or different things, because they really don't know what to do next. But they're trying and then we have districts that are, quite honestly, they're so fearful of trying that they're not trying at all.

Dana Jonson 12:40

Yeah, and you're in Illinois, right? So absolutely, yeah, I'm in Connecticut, and we have the exact same thing. And I suspect and from colleagues of mine around the country, and actually, friends of mine who even live in other countries are experiencing very similar issues. Now, for us, it's the same thing, our districts are handling it differently. And so some kids are getting everything and more. I even know there's a district I heard who actually a staff going to the house, because the children are so in paired. And you know, that in and of itself is very complicated, because you have to have a family willing to do it and staff willing to do it, to have somebody new coming in and out of their house. So we have some districts that are stepping up that way, and then others who are like nope, no more special ed until next year, or whenever we go back. And fortunately, this week, we got information that that special education is still happening is still enforceable. Everyone needs to get educated. So what are you in this crisis schooling, and I love how you said that. Because, you know, the thought of parents having to teach new skills and teach subjects they don't understand is almost impossible. So what are you saying when parents call you and say, I don't know what to do? The IEP says this. But we're over here doing that my school district is offering something completely different. And I have no idea what to do. And am I doing it wrong? Is my kid going to? What are they going to do to them when they get back? What do you say?

Katherine Witcher 14:14

So I start out with you're not doing it wrong. There is no wrong here. But I love to use really concrete real life examples. And so when I look at building appropriate IEP goals, and in what needs to happen long term, so I'm a big picture. I like say okay, so five years from now, what does your child need to know, to function in the real world and what could we work on right now? And if the IEP matches up to that great and if it doesn't, okay, then you know what, we need to rewrite some of this IEP. Anyway. So for example, if it's something like math, and the child has a magical so typically parents will get detailed with me, I'm going to ask them questions. It was a child's math bowl. And they'll tell me something like, well, they're supposed to be counting Penny nickels, dimes and quarters up to 99 cents and, and all of this stuff and I can't sit at the table and make sure and I got off the muffin tin and I had them sorting coins. And I started doing that. And then I go back to the question, I said, Listen, when's the last time you went to the store personally, and you counted out Penny nickels, dimes and quarters. And she's like, never like I couldn't tell you maybe when I got a, I don't know, $1 candy bar back in the day. But I don't do that. I said, You know what, you can't give people money right now. They won't take it. So I said, How are you shopping? Well, I go online. Okay. And how are you deciding what you want versus what you need? And how are you budgeting? And what's greater than less than? And how are you adding things together, and we have this conversation. And I said, and that's what your child needs to be learning, because that's the real world. Penny nickels, dimes, and quarters are done. They're done. They've been done. My brother is 42. And I can tell you, it, probably the last time that he counted out change is when he was in, you know, like eighth grade, sitting around doing an IEP goal. He doesn't like change, he doesn't use change. If he has to touch change, it goes in his pocket, he can't wait to get it out because he can swipe a debit card. So there are a ton of skills that can be worked on. And that starts to relieve a parent's anxiety over I'm not doing this IEP goal, right? And I said, No, but what are you doing in real life? That is math skills. Now let's start to integrate that. So it's not I do school, and I do life, life is school right now. And school is life.

Dana Jonson 16:44

And I love that because I see that parents are not putting enough value on what they are doing. That's what I'm seeing. I see there's a lot of fear. And a lot of, well, you know, all day, all we could do is blah, blah, blah. And they're listing like seven activities that I'm thinking those are great activities. But none of them were in the IEP. So I you know, my advice is, if you can't get to something, you don't get to it. Because this isn't real school. It's not real life. It's not real school, we're all still trying to figure it out. School still have to happen, and learning still has to happen. But I think that there's a misnomer that we have to learn in a certain order. Exactly. There are skills that we can implement or teach at the same time or before or after, and it doesn't matter. And I think I love the message of don't get caught up in, in what the AIP says. So right now in Connecticut, we are starting to see IEP meetings come back. Have you started to see IEP meetings come back? Virtually? Yeah, so

Katherine Witcher 17:52

one of the first trainings that I put out there, and that's available, if any of your listeners just reach out to Kathryn witcher.com, you can, I'll get you the link directly to how to prep for a virtual IEP meeting. And that was one of the first things that I put out. So having done what I've been doing for 20 years, I've been working nationwide, which means I've attended 1000s, of IEP meetings virtually. And I thought, oh my goodness, like people need to know there's more than just showing up on a screen when it comes to a successful virtual IEP meeting. And in fact, I love virtual IP meetings, one of the first things that I'm telling people is, you have to say yes, if the virtual IP meetings being offered to you say yes, because there's going to be two lines of people when school goes back into session, the ones that said no, and they want to go after the school district and they want compensatory education and they are angry and and we need this meeting and I want a meeting within 30 days. Well guess what if we do all IEP meetings, within 30 days of school going back, there will be no teachers in the classroom. It's not gonna happen. I can I right, it's impossible. So take the virtual IEP meeting, do what you can do virtually get the paperwork moving forward, get plans moving forward, because then you become the workable family and the workable IEP team that has open communication about what can happen. And then that process is going to go faster for you. So even if it's not perfect, it's going to launch you in the right direction.

Dana Jonson 19:24

And to that point, I completely agree with you. And I've been saying that as well. And, and now that we know that combat is on the table, compensatory education is a thing. And it's a complicated thing and too much to talk about and define and explain here. But I've also been telling parents, I said there's also going to be different lines for the parents who are going to get relief. And unfortunately, the ones who are going to get relief first are going to be the ones with attorneys or advocates, someone representing them, the ones who knew exactly what to do and how to do it in the right way. And then everybody else. And it's going to be really hard. I think. And I don't want everyone to have to go talk to a lawyer. I don't mean that at all. That is not what I'm saying. But I think it is important to know that we have to be on top of things right now. Because that will change when we get back when this is over and defined over, by the way, right? Define over.

Katherine Witcher 20:28

And this is what I say right now, when I'm teaching my community is that it's time to be done with the shock factor like this happened, we're done. There's no more I can't believe no, it did. It's we're there. We're getting to, you know, the first part of May, where they're shocked over can't sit there. Now it has to be what do I need to do now to move through this to get to whatever the next step is, and we don't know what that is. But you can position yourself better by being knowledgeable. And yeah, not everybody's going to need to go to an attorney. But everybody should know what a good Prior Written Notice looks like. Yes. And that includes a teacher, a teacher needs to be able to collaborate teachers are taught to be afraid of the the system paperwork. And that's nothing to be afraid of, I love to teach that to my Master Ip coaches, or those that are in the master class. And I say, You know what, I'm teach teachers how parents need to write advocacy letters, because it makes them not so scary. There's a reason that that certain words are in there, there's a reason we put a timeline in there, it's not to throw the teacher under the bus, it's to hold the system accountable, the people who write their paycheck accountable for what needs to get done.

Dana Jonson 21:48

And from my perspective as the attorney, so if one of your students or clients have to ultimately end up with me, for me, I need the document, I need the document trail. And if the document trail isn't there, if it didn't happen in writing, it didn't happen all the time. So you know, when I say you need to be prepared or speak to an attorney or someone like that, I don't mean that everyone has to go hire them. But I know at least in Connecticut, there isn't a single Special Ed attorney who won't talk a parent through what they need to do next. And you know, I don't want parents to be afraid to call parents and say this is my issue or not not to call parents to call attorneys and say this is my issue. Because they also think and I want your opinion on this, there's a difference. When I'm coming in, I'm not helping write the IEP, right when I come in, there's already a dispute, somebody already wrote the IEP and somebody already doesn't like it. That's why I am there. And your your skills and talents come into play with that while we're redoing it. But that's not really my role, I need to just look at the facts and see what's there and push it forward. But when you talk about those letters, and specifically, you know, holding the school district accountable, if those letters don't have the right words in them, it also doesn't help me right, because you need to trigger their obligations. And I think that's another reason why it's really important for parents to seek that advice. And as you say, you know, teachers are so scared of all this paperwork. And I know parents are really scared of calling anyone to call in to help. They're just they really don't want to look egregious. They don't want to look like they're mad at the school. And none of that is the case. Right? I mean, you need the support you need.

Katherine Witcher 23:34

Absolutely, you know, I think a word that you and I both will appreciate in this time for parents and for teachers to learn is the word access, because that's where we're having a lot of difficulty. So like, there are schools that you know, you and I have chatted about that there's great access to things. I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm not saying that, you know, kids are making, you know, leaps and bounds of of progress. But when I say there's a different level of access in some schools, and what's interesting to me is it's not necessarily even a financial thing, you know, others districts that are very well to do districts where their students are not having access to the IEP team for support. So it's important for both families to understand that what you know, what did you have access to, and what did you not have access to, because that's where a lot of our foundational law is setting, right, having equal access to education as our same age peers, teachers, if teachers learn to document how they're trying to help their students access things, then they're really in therapists too, and admins too, and if there's something higher above, that is preventing the team who is in the trenches because that's, the team's in the trenches, the parents are in the trenches, if there's something higher up that is dictating or preventing that access. So, to me, that's where compensatory education is really going to come forward. Because that was at a district level that it was that it was prevented. And it's kind of like the teacher did their best job. And the therapist did their best job and the parent reached out, you know, every other day to try to access and it just wasn't happening. Because whatever that because it's going to be that documentation of the word access is going to be huge.

Dana Jonson 25:25

And I think that, you know, that was one of the concerns when this all started was, is the pandemic, an excuse for not providing the services? Is that a justifiable reason for not providing a faith. And I think it's not dissimilar at first to when we have a hurricane, and we're shut down for a week, right, that happens. But we've now gotten to a place. So I do think that there are going to be a couple of weeks, it'll probably be very forgiven by the powers that be when we get to that place. But as you said, we're out of shock now, right? Like, we got to stop being shocked by it. This is the way it is right now. There's a lot of changing, it's going to continue to change. We can't define everything. Like you said the word appropriate. Now we have the words to the extent possible, right to the maximum there, they're doing things to the but even if they tried their best, and the child didn't receive the services, they are still entitled to them.

Katherine Witcher 26:24

Absolutely. Absolutely. In that documentation of how you tried to access who tried to access who tried to do what, because otherwise, we're gonna end up in a big, he said, she said, that's when I pass those on to you, Dana, that's where I said, you know, I'm not getting into the he said, My job is to make sure that that IEP document is beautiful, and that we've done everything possible to work towards implement and all of that it's when that communication breakdown happens that you talked about, that we ended up in the he said, she said, Yes, they did. No, they didn't. And there was no documentation of that. One of the first things that I told, you know, my community that I was working with was take a baseline data right now, right now baseline it because people left school without having proper documentation. We didn't know what was going to happen. They left on Friday never went back on Monday. And there may not have been data taken on the math problems, the reading problems, the behavior, outbursts, I don't know where that data is at. And everybody was in freakout mode. So I'm like, You do what you need to do to document as much as possible of baseline, because the first step, when we get whatever this new, normal is gonna be, how do we get that to baseline in the important skills? Now, mind you, if they're what I call the junk IEP goals, I don't care about baseline, I don't want to go there, we don't have time for that. We have to really prioritize what's most important for the child to be prepared for the future? And how do we get to back to baseline as fast as possible? Yes,

Dana Jonson 27:54

exactly. The baseline is important. And I've also been asking parents to document what is working, right, because some things are working that you either couldn't do before, or you didn't think of doing before. And those are just as important because we're not just going to be looking at compensatory education, we're going to also be looking at that appropriate education to and that's going to be different moving forward.

Katherine Witcher 28:19

And you know, the big piece that comes to mind when you talk about that perspective, I know a parents can be like, what did they mean by like, what's working? Well, if you found a piece of technology that is working for your child right now, that is a great piece of technology to get into the IEP going forward. So a lot of times, what I have found has happened is you have a child who receives specialized instruction, and then you have them integrating into general education, but they don't have access to the same technology to make that happen. Well, with this crisis, that gap of technology, and I'm not talking about, you know, lack of internet access, I'm talking about the actual Chromebook or the actual iPad or the actual Google Classroom password. Okay, I've had it took weeks to get kids in special education, the same dang Google Classroom password as their peers. And it was just an I get it, the IT guy was overwhelmed, but come on. So like, those are the things that I see as a silver lining opportunity of what is working is no longer should we ever have an IEP that does not have appropriate technology for their you know, compared to I should say, their same age peers, because the minute that they shut down these schools again, because let's just face it, this happened way too easy. It was a hard decision, but it happened way too easy. Yes, it's going to happen. Some version of this is going to happen again, whether it's part time, full time, rolling, you know, closures, whatever it's going to be that technology of what is working needs to be on the IEP.

Dana Jonson 29:54

Yes, you're absolutely right. And I think that to that point that this is chain Each forever, we're also going to be utilizing this distance learning for other things. I think that not just crises, I think our school districts are going to say, Oh, we got it to work to a degree. And what else can we do? I think, you know, that concept of can parents attend the PPT me or I'm sorry, we call them PBTS and Connecticut IEP meetings, you know, are they going to be saying, well, if you can join via zoom that that counts? You know? And that's a good question, because the meetings that are happening, and I want to ask you about this meetings that happen on Zoom are vastly different than in person. So for me, one of the things I'm doing when I go to IEP meetings is I'm summing up the witnesses, right? I'm looking at who can I not wait to cross examine? And, and how did my client handle the meeting, because they're going to be a witness to. And so my hope is that I never get to that place and that none of them are ever witness on a stand. But I have to think about that. And that's more difficult on video. So what are some of the differences and and, and tips that you're giving to parents? I know, one of the things I've been saying is that it's more formal. And it's more difficult because you have to give people time and take a turn, and so not to misinterpret that as it being adversarial.

Katherine Witcher 31:18

So I tell them something similar. And this is what I love about the Master Ip coach program is we speak in very layman's terms in the way of like, I'm like, listen, there's no fluff in an IEP meeting that's happening, virtually none of the reasons I love it, right, it's like there's no fluff. And I actually do find a positive that everybody tends to be heard, because everybody has to be quiet. There's no, you know, kind of side shuffle of, oh, look, the doughnuts arrived. You know, there's none of that really happening. It's very much like, who's gonna speak now unmute yourself. I kind of like that. One big tip that I don't see anyplace else that I implement in virtual IP meetings I'm really encouraging the Master Ip coaches to do this is that I want the parent specifically to have a second mode of communication with a trusted IEP team member during the meeting, being that when the meeting is happening, and usually I'm that person saying that you might be that person. But even if you AI or Master Ip coach, or another lawyer that is not sitting there, I want them to have like the social worker, the one who gives them like the Wink, wink, nod nod. Okay, that trusted person, I want them to have like, their cell phone. So they can text and say, what did the speech therapist just say? What is the teacher really mean? Because it's hard to take it all in? And did I hear that right? And my understanding, and you don't want to constantly feel like you're interrupting. That's what the hard part is. It's not like you can kind of gently raise your hand and say, like, Um, can you clarify that? Because it's a parent, that feels very uncomfortable. But if they have a trusted person that well, you know, they're talking on screen and everybody's going around, or they're participating by phone, but they know they have a direct line to somebody said that can say, what does that mean? Then the social worker might text back and say, just a minute, I got you, you know, like, Yeah, I'm gonna ask that too. So it's kind of like, hang on parent, we, you know, we've got that. So that, to me is very important for a parent to feel connected, is for them to have a secondary, almost like a private line. So their voices heard.

Dana Jonson 33:23

Yes, because they can't write me a note. Yeah. Sitting next what

Katherine Witcher 33:27

we do, you know, if I'm sitting next to somebody, there, they're in there. I'm like a pen. No, but what am I supposed to write down? questions to me really big, so I can glance. So, you know, because I've been doing this virtually for so long, I would tell them, Don't let the school use your cell phone to call me in, you know, like, you keep your cell phone. And if you have questions, I'm gonna be on my cell phone, but I can still text. And you know, we can go back and forth. So when a team member says something that's confusing to you, or upsetting, or somebody's has a facial expression that you're like, I don't think the psychologist agrees with that. You can kind of feed me in on what's happening.

Dana Jonson 34:04

Got it? Yeah, no, that is that is definitely key. Are you seeing because we've had some discussions about this here in IEP meetings now that we're going through the COVID-19. For us here, we are not changing IPs for these services, as we should not because we don't want to change their IPs because we don't know what we're going back to right. So but you can have a plan B. And you can have a distance learning plan for a child if you know what works much the way you have a behavior plan attached to the IEP. So have you had any experience with that with any of your clients?

Katherine Witcher 34:45

So we're launching into that now that's actually something that I am teaching. You know, I said that we teach Master Ip coach methods and the next method that's up and coming into our Master Ip coach programs that I'm teaching is going to be all about EA That's why plans and remote learning plans. And again, we talk real world kind of justification when you're sitting on it, but you gotta get people to understand where you're coming from. And I have some districts that are definitely, no, we're not, we're not going to talk about remote learning plans, we're going to be head in the sand like this never happened. And it's never going to happen again. Yes, I said, Listen,

Dana Jonson 35:22

we're getting that's exactly what we're getting. Yeah. So I said, Listen,

Katherine Witcher 35:25

you've got a tornado drill, in a tornado plan, because tornadoes happened. And you've got a fire drill and a fire plant, because fires have happened. And you know, out in Connecticut, you just have a hurricane plan. Because hurricanes happen. This is no different than a plan that may or may not be implemented. But it would be foolish not to document what has worked and not work. I'm not asking for a full commitment of a remote learning plan, what I'm coaching my Master Ip coaches to do, because we have a checklist of questions to ask, that will lead to documentation of a conversation at minimum. Right, so if we can't get an official remote learning plan put in there, it's like, what is working? Okay, you know, the iPad is working with such and such communication device with whatever. Okay, so let's document that during remote learning. This has been an essential tool, so at least it's documented in there. And we can refer back to that, what I'm getting in some districts who are open to an I will say something like if they don't have a formal plan that they're creating in the district to say, can we just make a bullet point list that would say, if remote learning was to happen in the future the child should be provided with, and just list the things that work. And during the current experience, the following was not effective. And that's it, I'm just looking for a checklist give me five things that worked five thing that didn't work, some tools that were used, so this way, when the school shuts down, we can open up the plan and say, start here,

Dana Jonson 36:58

right. So maybe learn from our says, is that a suggestion?

Katherine Witcher 37:05

Just a little bit? Yeah, love it.

Dana Jonson 37:07

You know, it has been really interesting, because I, you know, when I hear parents or school districts say, well, we don't see that in school. And I laugh, because now home is school. So I kind of feel like, do we get to go revisit all those things again?

Katherine Witcher 37:21

You know, I said to that, you know, and I encourage parents to parents were getting more frustrated with all the Zoom meetings, and all the things going on. And they said, Listen, I can guarantee at some point in your career advocating for your child, you said, I wish the school team just understood what happened at home. And right now you have a school, most people have a school that's willing to turn on a camera and see in your house, do not let that opportunity go. meltdowns, great, dirty dishes on the counter, because you're so busy, because yeah, awesome. child won't attend for more than 30 seconds without extreme adult prompting, go for it. This is what you've been asking for. I wish the school would understand. And they now have a window into your home. And I understand that's not going to be pretty, that's okay.

Dana Jonson 38:09

Yeah, well, we did have a situation where a teacher called one of my colleagues because she could see the older brother rolling joints in the background.

Katherine Witcher 38:17

Alright, that's a problem that's.

Dana Jonson 38:20

So, you know, maybe do that activity somewhere else. But I do like what you're saying, which is, you know, we have an opportunity now to show them what they weren't seeing. And because this is now their educational environment, it has to be adjusted. And I think, you know, we're also seeing a lot of children who were doing okay, in their classroom. But now, because of this, maybe their disability has made it impossible for them to access their education. And so now those children have to be considered as well. And those children are going to have to be evaluated, we're going to have a lot of long lines when we get back there. So what would be your top recommendations for parents when they are going to those you said, go to the IEP meetings? Definitely take them because you're absolutely right. There's going to be such a long line when this is over. If you have an opportunity to get something done, get it done, no matter what. But what are some of your top recommendations for parents right now? Whether it's through the IEP process or teaching at home or what what are you letting your clients know so that they're prepared as you can be?

Katherine Witcher 39:28

Yeah, as prepared as you can be? So one of the one of the biggest starting points that I'm having a conversation with parents about now is the time to really evaluate what's important in your child's IEP because if you are going to, you know, I don't like the word fight that will just go to if you are going to fight for something if you're going to fight for something compensatory education, or fight for something to continue in the fall, even if it's part time learning, if you're really going to work towards something thing, let's make sure that it's important for your child's future. Because your child's IEP is not to suppose to contain everything that they learn. It's not a comprehensive document that limits a child's learning, it is our foundation piece to prioritize what is needed to prepare a child for further education, employment and independent living by meeting their unique needs. So let's really use it for its intended purpose, prioritize streamline, make sure that the best of the best IEP goals are focused on because, again, when an if this falls apart, again, in our school system, you're going to already be ahead in knowing what to focus on the same thing that when they give back to school, the teachers are going to be a massive chaos of trying to figure out how to get back to baseline, what should we be working on what's going on. So if you can help eliminate some of those unnecessary focus areas that might have been in the IEP in the past, and you know, what you might have thought that they were important six months ago, you might have thought that some of those math goals were super important, you might have thought some of those reading goals were super important. It's okay, to have changed your mind, this crisis has changed the mind of a lot of us, it's changed my mind, as a parent, I'm sure it's changed your mind as a parent of what needs to happen in the next 12 to 18 months for our children to be successful. And it's okay to change that document to really change the future impact of that IEP on your child's education. So that's the first part it's about streamlining and making sure that we're prioritizing in the right spot. The other thing that I really want parents to understand is that an IEP doesn't determine their child's lifelong success in the way that many of them believe it does. So in the way of like, like, Oh, if they don't learn it in the IEP, if it's not wind down, my child's going to be a failure forever, they're never going to succeed, they're never going to have further education, they're never going to get a job. And it doesn't stop a child from being successful. Right? So it's all or nothing is that yes. So it's very much if we don't get this an IP, my child's gonna fail at life. No, they're not, no, they're not, you're not going to let that happen. This is one document. This is one piece. So you know, we have medical papers, we have educational papers, we have Department of Human Service papers, we've got papers and papers and papers, we've got all different agencies, this is a lifelong, this is a marathon, not a sprint. So things are not perfect right now, do not put that mom guilt or dad guilt on yourself with that I failed my child because the document isn't perfect. And I didn't get that one thing, and I didn't get the extra 30 minutes of speech. And I didn't get that. Take some pressure off yourself. Because like you had mentioned before, you're doing more than you realize, you know, you're doing so much in the area of, oh, well, I have to get my child a snack before they can sit down to their speech therapy lesson. And by giving your child a snack, you pretty much just have an entire speech therapy, you know, session by you're like, do you want, you know, red juice? Or purple juice? Do you want this snack or that snack? You know, tell mom how you feel? Are you hungry? Are you not hungry? You just did their bit, and then you expect them to sit down and go learn from the therapist. And so it's just important to give yourself credit, the documents never going to be perfect. Let's prioritize it. And let's keep moving forward.

Dana Jonson 43:37

That's great. And for when we go back to that table, and we are sitting there, we're going to be looking at a different appropriate,

Katherine Witcher 43:45

right. Absolutely, absolutely. You know, there's going to be things that we want more of like we mentioned technology, yes, there's gonna be things that we want less of like those skills that we needed in the 1980s that are not relevant. Now. That's a whole conversation for another day, right of where our special education curriculum. But yeah, we're all is typically focused. I mean, my brother, born in 1977, our law was enacted in 1975. I can tell you that if I went through my mom's basement, some of the same worksheets that my brother had in 1980 are still in my clients folders today.

Dana Jonson 44:18

Yes. And I will say I've been saying that for a long time that our education system needs to be revamped. I mean, everybody's been saying that. But does it have to fall apart before that happens? And I think we're finding out now I think we're going to be forced into that. I don't know if you saw that Betsy DeVos put out I'm not going to do it justice. So don't take anything from his actual fact. But basically asking states to, you know, you'll get more money. If you can come up with a system. Can you come up with a K to 12 system that can be flexible and work like this? And if states come up with them, they'll get more money. It's like an incentive to figure this out because it is something that needs we're recognizing finally that it has to be figured out or I shouldn't say We are the people who control the money are now realizing that we need to change this up on and

Katherine Witcher 45:08

I said you know it another silver lining from this experience is that, you know, I've been knocking on doors and standing outside offices for decades trying to get attention for what is possible in special education, not just what's lacking what's possible in special education. In the past month, I've been on NPR, I've been on 10 O'Clock News, I've been on all these different media outlets, because of what I do in special education. And what an opportunity to help the world see what we need as a special needs community. It's not about me, and in the work that I do, it's about why I do it and who we're doing this for, and that this shouldn't have taken this type of crisis to bring to light, the fact of what has really been happening in special education for the last 20 years,

Dana Jonson 46:08

yes, and I see parents saying, or I'm hearing all over the place, be flexible, be cooperative, you've been flexible and cooperative, since your child was diagnosed, that is the world of a special ed parent, all we do is spend time trying to find a different way to do something. And this is just another opportunity to sharpen those skills. And in fact, we should be probably in a slightly better situation other than, you know, we do have a lot of parents who have children who aren't functioning at all right now for a variety of leaves at all levels of disability, you know, at all levels, you know, what we would consider maybe not so impaired, but they're they're crumbling, because this isn't working. So I don't mean to belittle that, but we have been doing this and I see the frustration. I have it to hearing from parents of children with regular ed children saying, This isn't fair. They're not getting everything they need, how are they going to progress to the next grade? I don't know why they're pushing my child ahead without teaching them. These are all things that special ed parents have been saying for years. And so there's part of me that's like, yeah, I guess the table's turned Hmm. Nobody likes this. We don't like it either. So I'm really hopeful that it will give us a chance to change that. And we should be more individualized for everybody. And I believe there's a way to do it. We'll we'll see if you can,

Katherine Witcher 47:32

but Right, right, this is an opportunity to change the conversation, for sure. And that's what needs to happen. And there weren't people willing to have the conversation, because, in my opinion, they thought it was a small portion, they thought that what you and I do, we're for a little percentage of our community that happens to have struggles when their education doesn't work out. And that's not what you and I do know, you and I are honestly working with a significant part of our community that wants to be part of the community at an equal level. And to do that, it's going to take change to the conversation and more people to realize that when there's 6.6 million kids receiving special education services, and probably like you're mentioning a ton more that are going to get recognized as kids who function in the classroom, but don't function in the real world without the boundaries and parameters of the school system in there, that there's a lot of work to be done beyond just fixing an IEP.

Dana Jonson 48:41

Yes. So, on that note, if somebody wants to fix their IEP, and they are interested in your master class, how do they find you? How would they

Katherine Witcher 48:52

do, the best thing for you do is go run over to IEP checklist.com. Just get started with the checklist. Let me give you a checklist. And the checklist is for anybody who sits at the IEP table. So teachers you go sign up, it's not going to be an advocacy newsletter that throws you under the bust. And parents you need to go sign up because it's not an IEP checklist that you can just find on Google somewhere. It's stuff that you need to really change this conversation to move forward. So if you head over to IEP checklist.com and grab that checklist, then you and I will be connected, and we can go from there. Great.

Dana Jonson 49:30

They love that IEP checklist.com And I will also put that in the show notes. Is there anything else you'd like to leave parents with in this crazy COVID time?

Katherine Witcher 49:42

I'd love for every parent to see that there is hope in possibilities of what can come from this situation. It's not pretty. It fell apart. But us in the special needs community we can put things back together better than Never and we have the opportunity to do that.

Dana Jonson 50:02

Great. Thank you so much for joining me. This was such great information. I really appreciate it.

Katherine Witcher 50:08

Thank you for having me.

Dana Jonson 50:10

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications when new episodes come out. And I want to know what you want to know. So join our Facebook group also named need to know with Dana Jonson or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. But definitely reach out with your comments and questions and I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a fabulous day

The most important skill you need as a parent of a child with a disability is communication. Communication with your child, communication with outside providers, and communication with your school!

Today we talk about essential components of your communications and how to make them as transparent, efficient, and successful as possible! Good communication skill are of tremendous value for us in the world of special education parenting and advocacy. When the conversation is over, the parties are able to maintain a strong professional relationship, not a strained resentful one.

When you are communicating with the team of people working with your child, maintaining a good relationship is paramount. Unless your child is soon to be exited from special education, you plan to privately educate your child, or you plan to move, you will be dealing with your school district for the foreseeable future. Some of the ways in which the communication style we discuss can help preserve these relationships are as follows: * The parties become partners, NOT adversaries. Together they are finding a solution, not competing with one another. * The parties develop joint interests. Together they find common ground and work towards specific goals. * Multiple options are explored. Together the parties consider multiple approaches. * Fair standards are developed. Together the parties set boundaries that are reasonable and acceptable to all. When the conversation ends, both parties feel they worked together with integrity to find a solution that fits the need at hand. That is why AFTER the conversation ends you can continue to conduct a healthy professional relationship based on respect.

Episode link: https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/you-talkin-to-me

TRANSCRIPTS (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDSschool district, child, parents, communication, position, talk, options, teacher, problem, interests, emotions, parties, communicate, objective criteria, understand, school, agreement, emotional, goal, good

SPEAKERSDana Jonson

Hello, and welcome to Need to know with Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson and I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IEPs. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I've approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, information from other professionals on many topics, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear, comment on, join our Facebook group, it's aptly named need to know Dana Jonson, or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. Okay, let's get started. Today, we're going to talk about one of the most important skills that parents need. And that is communication, especially today, during these COVID 19. closures. And all parents are home with their kids trying to be the teachers and the parents. And I'm sure that you're having tons of communication back and forth with your school district, as many of us are doing. And even when we don't have school closures, I am sure that you communicate with your school district way more frequently than parents of children without disabilities, you may have weekly logs or monthly logs, you probably communicate with your child's teachers about how things are going at home Tips and Tricks back and forth. Or perhaps they're things that you want to see in their program or that you want to see happen. And you're making requests to the school district either to the teacher or to the team or to a specific service provider. And now that you're home, and all of these services are upside down and backwards. And all districts are handling this differently. And you want to make sure that when you come out of this, you've documented everything you need to document in the proper way that you need to document it. And whether it's today during closures or whether it's during a typical school day, when you communicate with your school district, it is so important to make sure that that communication is being heard properly, and that you are hearing them properly. So many times families come into my office and things broke down all over communication. And there are a lot of different reasons for that. And we're gonna go through several of them. And I'm gonna give you some ideas and thoughts on how to, you know, communicate, speak with make requests to your school district, it is really the most critical piece, I believe in your advocacy for your child. If you're not somebody who can communicate well, for whatever reason, you're going to have an extra challenge in advocating for your child. So what do I mean by communication, there are different styles of communication that people utilize, and some are more successful than others. So let me talk a little bit about two that are not typically very successful in this situation. The first one, our 30 was as altruistic, somebody whose goal is to have agreement above and beyond everything else. So it's more important that everyone gets along and agrees, then other things. And so what ends up happening when you do that, when you communicate like that, and you're worried about maintaining that agreement over everything else, then you tend to make concessions just to cultivate the relationship. And so you're more apt to give in than maybe you should be, you can be overly soft on the person. If there's a problem on the table and your goal is agreement. And it's really important that parties come to an agreement, then you're more likely to go soft on some of the people in order to come to that agreement. You may also change your positions frequently make offers that lessen your position or accept one sided agreements. And if your goal is to get to an agreement, you're more apt to leave with an agreement whether you want it or not. Now going to the other extreme, we can talk about the individualistic or competitive communication. And when people are competitive or individualistic in their communications, their goal is to win. Their goal is to win whatever is happening. Whatever is on the table, to demand concessions as a condition to be hard. on both the people and the problem, this is a horrible problem. And you're a horrible person because you're part of it. They dig into their positions. Nope, my position is right, I'm going the right way. And everyone must come with me. They may make threats, demand things of their school district that maybe they're not actually entitled to and insist that things be done their way. Now, neither of these are good for parents. When people come to me, and they have been handling their matter in the altruistic way. What I ended up having a difficult time with is things are not properly documented. Because if the parents are trying to get along, if that's the priority, I'm not saying you shouldn't get along with your team, absolutely, you should get along with your team, we want you to get along with your team. That's why we're talking about communication, so that you can get along with your team better. But if that's the priority over everything else, then what ends up happening is there isn't a very good document trail, the disputes that happened even the minor ones, they don't look as strong. Or perhaps the school district wasn't even aware of how upset the parents were becoming an or feeling completely blindsided. So that's one challenge. On the flip side, for my individualistic and more competitive clients, when that comes to me, I have a different problem, because perhaps they've made threats that they can't maintain, and you lose credibility with that. Or if you've insisted on doing things one way, and there's only one way to do something, then my ability to come to a compromise or to resolve the matter for you becomes more difficult. So we're looking for something that's a bit of a hybrid of both. I want your goal to be an outcome that is reached efficiently and amicably. So let's talk about how to do that one of the pitfalls that parents find themselves falling into is arguing over their position. So when people get stuck in their position, and they start arguing over them, egos get bruised, it's inefficient, it creates unbalanced outcomes. And it really does endanger relationships. When people are arguing over their positions, my position is right, your position is wrong. People get locked into those positions, and their egos become attached to them. And their focus on them becomes way more hyper focused, then addressing the underlying concerns or issues that you're talking about. Especially if you and your school district are really far apart to start with, if you're already having an issue with them, then, you know, taking an extreme position, refusing to budge, and just maintaining minor minor concessions just to keep the conversation going, that takes so much time and effort, it becomes a contest of wills, and it will strain or shatter any relationship. And it makes moving forward so much more difficult. Now, if you're not in agreement with your school district, and you're discussing something with them, that you need, or you want for your child, there's really only four possible endings to that, right. So either you in and they lose, or you lose and they win, or you both lose, or you both win. Naturally, we want everybody to win. That would be ideal. But why is that ideal? Why do you care if both parties walk out winners, right? You're thinking I'm advocating for my child, that's the only winner here is my child? Well, that's not really true. Because if you're dealing with your school district, it's not just a one off conversation, you're going to be dealing with that school for as long as your child is of school age. So unless you plan to privately educate your child, which you always have the right to do, or move, you have to get used to the idea that you're going to be dealing with your school district for quite some time. So that relationship is really important. And you want to do your best to cultivate it. So what is optimal communication? Well, first, you're going to have to do some analysis. You're going to figure out what yours and the school districts interests are and perceptions and what are the existing options. And then you have to plan rather than worry about how to respond plan ways to respond to situations so that when they come up, you are already prepared and discuss the problem. Find solutions talk it through in optimal communication. The parties can become partners, not adversaries, and you'll be finding solutions together. And that can be Eating against each other, you want to be able to develop joint interests for your child with your school district. And you can set those boundaries and make sure that you're all in agreement in the goals for your child's future. And you want multiple options, right, you don't just want to come to the table, and you have one thing to say, or they have one thing to say, you want to be able to explore lots of options, and come to an optimal decision. So there are four basic points to this optimal communication that I'm talking about. There's the people, and you want to separate the people from the problem. So for example, you don't like the teacher, you don't want to bring that into the conversation with you. And that's got to be one of the hardest things to do. But you want to be able to separate the person from the problem, because if you conflate the two things, your message will not come across. Second point is interests, you want to focus on interests, not positions. So maybe your focus is the child getting social skills, but maybe not exactly how maybe that is where we can be a little more flexible, but focusing on that interest of the social skills and not your position on exactly how it should be implemented. Third point is options, you want to make sure there are lots of options, have you been able to generate as many options as possible? Have you discussed them Have they all been on the table, there is not only one way. And then finally, your final point is going to be criteria, you want to make sure that the results of what you are asking for are objective. And we talked about that a lot in special education, because we have goals and objectives that have to be written in a specific way that are measurable. And they have specific criteria. Well, that can be applied to our conversations as well and our communications. So let's get back to the people, separating the people from the problem, you have an ongoing relationship with your school system, and the staff that you deal with on a daily basis. So in some situations is ongoing relationship is more important than the outcome, that is not the case here. So you want to make sure that you're separating the people from the problem, right. And what we tend to do sometimes is we take the problem, we take the person and we combine them into the same thing. So when the problem gets bigger, you're more upset with the person. Or if you're more upset with the person, you feel the problem has gotten bigger. And this is where egos get involved. And it really pushes parties apart from each other. So when you're communicating with your school district, try your best to recognize your feelings for the person versus the problem that you're trying to address. Because the flip side of that is true as well, which is when parents really, really like a teacher, sometimes that can allow you to let things go, that maybe you really shouldn't. And the reason you shouldn't, is because your child won't have that teacher forever. And that's a really hard position to be in. So when you have a teacher you really like and you want to make sure that that relationship maintains that is important that relationship is important. But is it more important than the problem at hand. So another issue that we run into when we're dealing with the people component of things are perceptions. And two people can look at the same situation and see two different things. And so we're all looking at the same situation. But we're all seeing different outcomes. And that is because we bring with us to the table, our background and experiences and our background and experiences are all different. So in communication, when there are different perspectives, or the parties are coming from different places, like you and your school district may not have the exact same goals, we would like it to be always just the child. But I think in reality, there are lots of other things we need to take into consideration. So put yourself in their position. It's easy to blame somebody else for something you are upset about. So try to put yourself in their position, how are they hearing the words that are coming out of your mouth, you want to share your position, but how you share that position is really, really important. And if you can help to update or change their perspective and their perceptions, then that's going to help you so identifying that they have a different perspective, or identifying their different perceptions of your child is important for you so that you can better educate them. If you recognize that the teacher or service provider can That's your child they're seeing the same child you are, then you don't have to spend a lot of time educating them on that, if it is clear that the staff you're dealing with is not seeing the same problem or the same child, then you want to find a way to update their thoughts on that or update their position. So for example, the parent may say, you know, my teacher does not give me data and unless I asked for it, and then the teacher turns around and says, I give the parent the data whenever she asked for it. Or a parent may say, you know, that teacher, she's cold and distant, she never asked how we're doing. And my child has a lot going on. And then you go to the teacher, and their perspective is, but I'm being very considerate. I'm a considerate person, I would never intrude on a parent's privacy. I know they have a lot going on. And I'm not going to be the one to bother them. I've heard parents say, you know, they come to me and say, Well, I've been volunteering in the classroom all the time, because I know they need support, and they're short staffed, and I want to help. And I don't understand why the teacher isn't more appreciative of my time and efforts. And then we go to the teacher in their perspective is that that parent is always in my classroom, they're constantly looking over my shoulder, I feel like I'm being grilled all the time. So in all of those examples, we're in agreement on the facts, we're agreeing that all of the facts are the same, but we're disagreeing on the preferred outcome. So we need to be able to see the situation as the other side sees it, if you can understand their point of view. And understanding their point of view is not the same as agreeing with it. You may, however, modify your own view once you understand their perspective and their position. But you're not going to do that, if you don't understand it. So what else do we have to deal with when we're dealing with people? Emotions, special education is very emotional, this is your child, this is their future. There is nothing that is not emotional about this, this can also be difficult and emotional for the staff as well. So you want to understand what is their emotion and what is yours. You also don't want to make conclusions about their intentions based on your own emotional state. So if you're worried and you're upset, and you're scared for your child, you may be more apt to assign intentions to their actions or words. So especially in IEP meetings, emotions are running high from the start, especially if the parties know that there's something that you're going to disagree with. And if any party is overly emotional, it can create an impasse between them. So it's really critical to recognize your own emotions as well as theirs, you do not want to treat the staff like they don't have emotions. If they make an emotional outburst, you don't want to respond to that. You want to be able to keep yourself cool and not respond. And you don't want to stop them from expressing their emotions, and you don't want to dismiss their emotions. So there's a lot you don't want to do with their emotions, what you do want to do is you want to make the emotions explicit, acknowledge them, as legitimate, recognize their emotions, recognize yours, continue listening, even when the other side is letting off steam and venting. Let it go, let them get it out. And you know, what make an apology if it's warranted. A strategy for working with people is to have several phrases in your pocket that you can pull out any time to help you get things back on track. So if you're having a discussion with a teacher, or you're in your IEP meeting, I'm just throwing these out there, you can make up your own. But this is the idea of starting with, please correct me if I'm wrong, and then summarize what you think they're saying, please correct me if I'm wrong. I think what I'm hearing you say is you don't want my child in the cafeteria. Because if that's what you're hearing, then you need to say that because that might not be what they were trying to get across to you. But things like please correct me if I'm wrong. But could you explain or is this correct? Could I ask you a few questions to see whether my facts are right, let me just tell you where I'm coming from. And what is the reason behind that? So let's talk about interests. When people are paying attention to their positions and not the interests, then they're not paying attention to the concern. And so you're not going to come up with a good solution or and results when you're arguing over your positions, it gets more emotional and it damages relationships. So what do you want to do you want to focus on the interests. Now, the shared interests may not always be obvious, but you want to find them because they're opportunities to build on. So for example, you have a parent who wants their child to eat in the school psychologists office. And the school district is saying, no, they have to be in the cafeteria. And it turns out that the parent was very concerned about their child's ability to navigate the cafeteria. And the school was thinking about the child's socialization and didn't want the child missing the opportunity to socialize during lunch. So the common interest that everybody had there was the child's social skills. But what they were fighting over was, how to implement it or where to start. And they weren't getting those positions across clearly. And so it was just a fight over the school psychologists office or the cafeteria, and no one was getting down to the reasons. Another area where interest gets derailed is when parties can't stop focusing on what happened in the past. So how did we get to where we are today? I know for me, as a parent, that's really hard thing to do, to let that go, especially when you're sitting at a team and no one is agreeing, or no one's agreeing with you, I should say that it's very hard to let go how we got to where we are now. But if we can keep that focus on where we're going, if we can keep that focus on the next step, then that's going to help the conversation along and it's going to move that communication in a positive direction. Because you're not communicating over the negative component of the past, you're only focusing on moving forward. To that end, you may want to bring some options to the table. So that brings us to our third point options, one of the things you want to do is separate the act of inventing the options from the act of judging them. So this is a fun activity I do with my children, and myself. And you can do it as well is when we're coming up with a list of options for something, we eliminate any judgment of them. So I could ask grandmother to drive you to the school, well, grandmother doesn't have a car, so that's not going to work. Okay, but let's put that down, because that was the first option. Now, when you say that's not going to work, because she doesn't have a car, well, you've eliminated a variety of other options. Maybe somebody can lend her a car, maybe that's not the issue, maybe she can walk there, who knows. But when you are judging options, as you're coming up with them, you are losing the opportunity to explore them. So when you have that discussion, and you go back to the options, so you list your options first. And then after all of the options are listed, go back then, and do your pros and cons. And at that point, write your list of why it would work or why it would not. And then come from there. And the more options you have, the more flexible you will present. And the more options you're providing for your district. And you're making it easier for them. You're saying I have a problem. But I've also got a couple solutions. I'm not coming to you with the solution. And you don't have to do it my way. But here are the options that I have looked into and I have investigated to make your life easier. And if you can't agree on the substance of something, well, then maybe you can agree on the procedure. So okay, maybe the school district doesn't agree with you, they're not seeing the same thing. Okay, well, maybe we can agree on a procedure to determine what the child needs. And I'm not talking about like a full evaluation, I'm talking about other things that are, you know, more day to day, come up with a more objective way to look at it and make that an option. And that brings us to the final point, which is objective criteria. And if you are a parent of a child with disabilities who is in special education, then I certainly hope you know what that means both objective and criteria. And what that means is that you are basing your results on an objective standard. It takes the issue out of people's hands, there's no blame, there's no guilt. You have a way by which you will determine if something is successful or not. And that can be done in many ways. Your standardized full assessments is one way to do it, getting a third party consultant to weigh in maybe an outside service provider or a consultant within the district or out of the district, there are plenty of educational consultants out there. And there are a lot that school districts will agree to that parents also like. So that's often an option for resolving issues. And then are those criteria legitimate and practical. So maybe you say, you're going to get a third person, but you're identifying such specific qualifications for who that third party person is going to be, you may not be able to find them. So you want to make sure that whatever that objective criteria is, it is legit and practical. So now you've got all these tips in your pocket. We talked about people and perceptions and emotions. We talked about having some stock phrases in your pocket that you can pull out when you're not sure what to say, or to get your point across. And we talked about relationships, we talked about separating your position from your interests, and creating options and objective criteria. So now you've got all your tips. What are you going to do when they assert forcefully and unequivocally whatever their position is that you don't agree to try not to fight back. And I don't mean not fight back at all. I mean, try not to fight back in the moment, assume that they have a valid reason for their position, and you need to go figure that out and figure it out for yourself. ask clarifying questions, ask curiosity questions, if they are coming at you like a spider monkey, you do not want to fight back, there's nothing good that's going to come of that discussion. When two people or two parties are heated and upset. Nothing productive is going to come from that. So try not to fight back, try to let it go and maybe come back and address it later. What do you do when school districts attack your position? You don't know what you're talking about, you're not a professional? Well, you could turn that negative attack back into an opportunity to hone your ideas, and invite criticism and advice from the school from the professionals who are considering what you're asking for, turn that attack around, use it as an opportunity to deepen the conversation. So what are you going to do when they attack you personally, that's one of my personal favorites. Again, this is an emotional area, and families are often emotional. And I see too often school districts trying to hold that against parents and stating that, that they're overly emotional or that they are unreasonable. And I think that's very unfair, but they do do it. So what are you gonna do when they attack you personally, try and take that energy, and channel it into the discussion of the underlying issues that you're talking about. Take the issue that you brought up, or that is on the table, repeat it back to them, and ensure you understand what they are saying. Because if you don't understand what they're saying, you're certainly not going to get them to understand what you are saying. So paraphrase. Take their information, and repeat it back to them and make sure that you understand, and then again, come back and make sure they understand you. So what are you going to do when they make unreasonable demands? Ask a Question and pause. Sometimes staying silent for a little bit, makes its point all by itself. And sometimes if you ask a question, and you just pause, it may become more apparent to them how ridiculous it is, especially now that I know parents are dealing with trying to teach subjects that they didn't teach before. And they're being asked to do things that just some don't make sense. So ask say, you know, what experience and qualifications do you think I have to do that? And then be silent for a second? It's a good question. My favorite saying is you cannot use logic to talk someone out of a position they did not use logic to get into. So you also have to recognize when the conversation is over. Sometimes you will never convince them of anything because it wasn't logic they used to make that decision. Very often the people you are dealing with on a day to day basis are not the people making the ultimate decisions. And those decisions are about where resources are allocated. And sometimes staff working with your children are not any part of that. So know when to get help. Know when you've banged your head against the wall enough. Remember that you're not going to talk them into your way of seeing things, you can try to educate them to it. But then you also have to listen to their way of seeing things, it's a very difficult thing to do. And it will serve you well, it will be worth your time when thinking about your communications with your child's teachers or their team. You also want to take into consideration timing factors. First, you want to avoid spontaneous, unprepared communications. So we want to minimize those to the absolute maximum as funny, we want to minimize them to the maximum amount possible. I don't know if that works. But you want to minimize spontaneous, unprepared communications. And what I mean by that is when you get stopped in the hallway, and asked a quick question, and you're flustered and you don't understand or you don't know, or you know, you have a problem with it, this isn't the time to bring it up, I'll have to get back to you is a very reasonable response, I'll have to get back to you. If they call if they are talking to you in the hallway. Now with email, you can always take a break, and you don't have to respond immediately. But actually, that's a really good point. You don't have to respond to email or texts immediately. It's not mandatory, it is a habit that we all have, but it is not mandatory. So if you get a communication from your school, and you're not sure how to respond, then don't take the time, make sure that you are prepared, you know what it is that you want to say, and you know what you're asking for, or what you are discussing. In the same vein, don't grab your child's teacher during dismissal or bus duty, and try to review your child's program with them. That is not a good time, you're not going to get a good response. And you're not going to get the answers that you want. So you as well have to look at how am I asking this? Is this the right time to do that. And if it's not, figure out when would be or set a time slot, make an appointment with your your child's teacher, take time to develop relationships with everyone working with your child, that is not easy, either. And you do not have to become best friends with them. But taking that time can be really helpful. And knowing when to close, knowing when to end the conversation, or when to end the negotiations, whichever it is, know when it's over. At a certain point, how many times do you have to repeat yourself to understand that they've heard it, and they get it. And they don't agree. So in all of your communications with your school district, you want to utilize active listening techniques and you want to fully engage and listen to what they're saying. You want to make sure that you understand what they are saying to you, and that they understand what you are saying to them speak with the intention to be understood. Be intentional, be prepared, try not to just fly off the cuff and try to focus your talk on you and your child, not on them. So, for example, you didn't teach my child to read is a lot different than I'm concerned my child's significantly below grade level, you can also ask open ended questions that helps to allow them to elaborate so that you can hear make sure that you understand what they're talking about. And when you're actively listening, what a great tool is to paraphrase, paraphrase what they said and repeat it back to them and make sure that you're understanding and that they're understanding and that you're not just listening to them, you're hearing them. Think before you speak. Easier said than done. But again, speak with purpose. Every time you communicate with your school district. You need to be purposeful. Don't blame them for the problems, no name calling, Don't raise your voice. Don't use crappy body language. I sat through an entire PPT where the husband had his back to the other attorney. It was intriguing, a little awkward. But I don't recommend it. Maybe if your attorney sitting next to you, but even then maybe not. A good way to present things also would be to use the terms what if, what if we tried this or what if we did this first and if that's the result We'll do something else, breaking things down. And finally, know your own hot buttons, understand what sets you off, because the only way to guard against your own triggers is to know what they are. So if you know that a particular topic really sets you off, then do your best to avoid it or be cognizant of that when it's brought up knowing things is half the battle. So those are some of my tips for communicating with your school district. Separate the people from the problem. Consider their perceptions and their perspective and their positions. Take into consideration emotions. Don't forget that those are there and they run high and be aware of them and do your best to keep them in check, focus on interests, not positions and generate a lot of options. So when you come to the table, you have a lot to discuss. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications when new episodes come out. And I want to know what you want to know. So join our Facebook group also named need to know with Dana Jonson or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. But definitely reach out with your comments and questions and I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a fabulous day

Executive functions (EF) are much more than just organization! We need executive functions to be able to be flexible, generate ideas, problem-solve, hold information in our brain while completing a task, manage task demands, and monitor our own performance against some standard of what is needed or expected. Today we speak with Kit Savage, founder and managing director of Savage Advocates (https://www.savageadvocates.com/). In addition to special ed advocacy, Kit follows the Brown Model of ADD/ADHD (https://www.brownadhdclinic.com/) and Dr. George McCloskey's research on Executive Functioning (http://www.georgemccloskeyphd.com/) to inform her coaching work with students who experience executive dysfunctions. We'll talk about how EF impacts students in and out of the classroom, strategies for addressing EF, and what parents need to know to help their students with weak executive functions – especially now, during the COVID-19 school closures! You can find Kit and Savage Advocates at: https://www.savageadvocates.com/

Episode Link: https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/conjunction-junction-whats-your-executive-function\

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDSexecutive functioning, student, child, kids, parents, school, skills, talk, prompt, deficits, adhd, teaching, advocate, special education, executive functioning skills, zoom, learning, executive dysfunction, iep, life

SPEAKERSDana Jonson, Kit Savage

Dana Jonson 00:03

Hello, and welcome to need to know a Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson. And I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your school's obligations, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear or comment on, you can find me and this podcast at special ED dot life. You can also find me on Instagram at special ED dot life. Or you can email me, Dana at special ED dot life. Now the first thing you need to know is that sometimes I have a bit of a potty mouth. So if your environment isn't ready for that, feel free to pop in your earbuds. Okay, let's get started. Today, we're sitting down with Kitt savage who is the founder and managing director of savage advocates, which is a special education advocacy group in Connecticut. And Kitt is also an executive functioning coach. So you've got two hats in the game here. I want to start with there is no regulation or specific definition of advocate. So when I speak with the advocates, the way I usually position it is what is it that you do? Because there's nothing that tells me exactly what an advocate does mean, you have a general idea, they're helping you advocate for your child, but I feel like most advocates have their own niches. So would you say that? What services do you offer as an advocate?

Kit Savage 01:55

Well, with the advocacy hat on, I really feel like advocates are sort of the nexus between interpreting data from all different areas. So whether it's reports and evaluations on disabilities or school data, but mostly what I'm doing is I am an investigator trying to figure out what is going on with the student, that they're struggling in school? What are the parents instincts and gut needs for their child because I believe that parents may not have the terminology or the acronyms down, but they absolutely have the answers for where their child is struggling. And what I consider myself is as a master negotiator to work with PPT teams to pull out a program not just goals, but a program that meets all the needs of their students. My personal background is very much in the area of ADHD and learning disabilities. So I would say literacy and behavior are areas that I have a tremendous amount of respect and experience for our teachers as well as our experts in those areas.

Dana Jonson 03:00

So let's talk a little about that. How did you get to be a special education advocate? What is your journey that brought you to being an advocate and knowledgeable in special education, executive functioning, coaching?

Kit Savage 03:13

Oh, gosh, that's a long story. Well, the short story would be that I have two children with disabilities and both of whom could not read. I mean, it was it was evident from kindergarten that one of my children couldn't sit through circle time to go through the the phonemes wanted to leave the room. So the journey from there was understanding that I have a sibling with dyslexia, and that I then learned fairly quickly that I have two children with dyslexia and related disorders. So I had a career and I decided that if I was going to do this, I didn't want to sit in meetings anymore and not understand all the acronyms all of the interventions, unless I educated myself. So in addition to working with an advocate, which I still do to this day, I started going to conferences for literacy, social thinking, data collection behaviorism, and over time realized I have really amassed a lot of knowledge about civil rights as they relate to process to the PPT. So in 2012, I started a support group in my hometown, because there were a lot of problems. And I found very quickly that people did not have even the basic understanding of the PPT process. So I developed a speaker series of bringing in a school psychologist, a speech and language pathologist, and started to really talk and informally advise families on how to get through it. So the results of that were that our town went through an enormous period of change and investigation into some practices that were really illegal. And it took several years but throughout that I was approached so many times by so many parents and was able to help them that I decided to pursue it professionally starting in 2017. And at that my children at that that point could actually fluently read and get through their work. And I realized that their greater challenge lifelong was going to be executive functioning, which,

Dana Jonson 05:10

that's what I was gonna get to, because that's I was gonna say, You know what I'm actually most interested in either I'm always interested in the advocacy component. But I wanted to talk more about the executive functioning component, because I know that that is a very strong focus for you. And I think it's an interesting area that is very misunderstood most of the time, but also really impacting our students right now, given our current time of COVID closures. So I wanted to dive a little bit into that.

Kit Savage 05:39

Yes, so executive functioning became obvious for both of my children that it was underlying all of their learning. So, again, I did what I have done before I went to school, I went back to school and started learning the neuroscience that there isn't a single test for executive functioning. It's a collection of evaluations, that it affects not just organization, but perception and focus. And it's related to ADHD, but not the same as its relating to learning. How do

Dana Jonson 06:09

we differentiate that from ADHD? Because that I think, is when you say, you know, one of my children has extreme executive dysfunction. And I think when I say that people assume, Oh, they have strong ADHD. But it's, it's more than that. And it impacts so much more than just they can't keep their locker straight, right? Yes,

Kit Savage 06:30

I think, because I'm not a psychologist, I'm not going to the details. But I can tell you as a parent, and as a coach, how this plays out is the intersection between executive functioning ADHD is really strong. I almost don't care what the label is, I think what we have to get to is, what are the skill deficits for that student in school and in life? And let's peel that back and start giving them support in those. And

Dana Jonson 06:57

that's what I need. Because I think what I want you to talk about is, what are those deficits that come with severe executive dysfunction? Because I think that there is a distinction between executive dysfunction and just ADHD in general, you know, you look at a kid, you're like, Oh, well, they're disorganized. I mean, there are issues about flexible thinking that involve problem solving, and critical thinking and the way you talk and the emotional control. And so like, what are these other areas that are specific to the executive functioning?

Kit Savage 07:26

And this is where the investigative hat comes on? Because I would say that every student has a slightly different profile, I can tell you, there are two leaders in the field of executive functioning that I follow Dr. Brown's model, which is used by where I've received training, Landmark College, and Dr. George McCloskey is model and what I found an Aha, so yes, so so when I discovered them, I realized how layered executive functioning is and why, like you said, some students it is literally getting their organization together, but they don't have any difficulty with comprehension at all. Another student, it's it's the comprehension of what is the expectation of the classroom, and initiating that and getting through an anxiety moment. So I think this is where parents and educators and coaches come in to really identify out of these variety of skills, what areas of deficit impact their performance, which is my other message, which is that I think when it came to literacy instruction, there was an expectation, and it happened for both my children, they could read fluently, even if it took eight years, that it's a skills deficit. So we have to teach if you see a lot of executive functioning programs literally teach kids how to do binders, and how to stay organized. And I think that that's missing, the greater point is that

Dana Jonson 08:51

about, like, when you talk about growth mindset versus fixed mindset, is that when you're making those neural pathways, because you're doing it out of habit over and over again, is that how a child with executive dysfunction will ultimately learn is to be the repetition, or

Kit Savage 09:08

I don't think so. I think that what what are the signs that I see is it's certainly repetition is essential. But it's not going to be as clear cut as that, in fact, it's a performance deficit that's based in self regulation. So it's day by day, it's based in CO regulation. So even if one day I think if it doesn't wave that student can do the organizer does not mean that that student is going to be able to access that organizer under stress, anxiety, and challenge. So that kind of brings us to where we are right now.

Dana Jonson 09:45

That's the performance part that is the the main so what are you teaching them? Are you teaching them how to get through that moment and demonstrate the skill? Is that what we focus on? Or is there a different way to learn the skill that they can then get To realize into moments of stress,

Kit Savage 10:02

I think with each student, it's different. But as age matters in this because developmentally as a student's age, they more skills come online. So if we know that neurologically, Neuroscience tells us that the frontal lobe is where all of this lies, and again, I'm not a psychologist, but as a parent, I can I got a sense of relief when they say, you know, this doesn't come online fully for neurotypical kids to early 20s. And for kids with comorbid, I hate that word. But let's just say more than just one thing. That can take an extra three to five years. So we're looking at 28 to 30, I sort of could take a breath and say, Okay, these are not skills that are going to be easily acquired. So yes, it's about setting up a structure based on the assignment, you know, every student has different skills. And if we're talking about performance versus skills, there are students that can access math and science, but that they cannot access language arts. So for those students, the scaffolding is what matters. Where are we starting?

Dana Jonson 11:06

Yeah, and when will I guess what I'm talking about too, is when you have a student who can't access or can't, can't deliver that performance, maybe they have the skills, but they, you know, in times of stress, or, you know, if the sun is out, they can't focus,

Kit Savage 11:21

what we have to start with is regulation, which is emotion. So every session of every single student, whether or not they have executive functioning deficits or not, starts with where is that student and I think that at this time in the world, and this might be the silver lining, for a lot of people, mindfulness, and taking a minute to see where your body is at starting with your actual body really helps these students, because especially if it's after a typical school day, if we went back to when we had school, they're not they're not in the habit of actually sitting still with themselves first to say, what about this assignment is challenging? Well, I

Dana Jonson 12:02

think that's a good point for parents, too, because that's something I've been talking about a lot recently, too, which is that intentional self care is important. And the same way that our students need to regulate themselves and have control over their emotions in order to access education. We do as parents, you know, I have to recognize what's triggering me. And if I can't take those five minutes to take a breath, and figure out where I am, and organize what I need to do if I don't do that I'm useless to them.

Kit Savage 12:34

Yes. And I think that that is key right now. So that self regulation piece for us fill your own cup, which I've know every special education parent sits there and kind of laughs at that notion, because we haven't been able to fill that cup since we know, that's fine. But this is something that's a really important piece of it. And then I think that the tendency is because the behavior and performance is is dysregulated. The tendency is to think it's it's their fault. Like why? Why can't you sit down right now. And if we can start from the fact that you can't attend to something, if your body is not in the room, and your head is not in the room, especially now let's let's allow for that. And maybe, you know, I have a student who's my son, who is not doing work till 1030 At night, and that's what works for him. He's still getting it done.

Dana Jonson 13:27

Yeah. And I think, you know, that's a good point, too, because it also it takes effort to maintain those skills. So for someone my understanding, living with six of us in this house with limited executive functioning skills,

Kit Savage 13:43

well, then that's the point, isn't it? Aren't we, as a guest, that's

Dana Jonson 13:46

exactly what I'm talking about. I feel like if there was nothing I'm gonna say is, when you get tired, it's harder to do it. So like, I've exhausted It's Sunday, you know, and so it's harder for me to muster the energy, I require more energy to focus, right. And so, you know, you see children too, it's not just about that inconsistent performance. But if they've been performing really well, for several days, or if they're under extra stress, they may not have the energy to contribute to it.

Kit Savage 14:17

Exactly. And one, one specific way I can explain that is we're all learning distance learning at this moment. And one student was really struggling, even though there was a zoom classroom. So the perception of the parent was that there was instruction happening. And this is a language based learning disabled student. So this is someone where content is going to overwhelm and in fact, it was a check in so the Zoom was not actual instruction. It was a check in with an attachment with an assignment and a video that then had to be put together and the due dates were missed. And the assumption made was there was instruction and follow up and this is a kid that would need someone else to go through that for All assignment with them. And the learning first, I

Dana Jonson 15:03

think that's a good point because they think that when I hear and I'll just talk for my own kids, when I hear well, it's all on Google Classroom, you know, that's great. I don't care if it's tattooed on your forehead that takes so many steps for them to get there that we have to remember that remembering which email address they're signed into, for which drive for which Google Classroom, and then they have to go in and they have to find the right class. And then they have to figure out where they're behind. And for somebody that that comes very easily to, you know, they can take for granted that it's right there if you just follow the prompts, but for somebody with executive functioning deficits, the all those individual pieces are not as easy. Is that correct?

Kit Savage 15:44

Exactly. They need guidance, sports. And again, one of my hopes of out of this time is I don't see that this is this has now become our common experience. I you know, people are talking about not getting dressed, not showering. What am I going to do today, because the structure of their lives is gone. I wonder if we could think about that feeling is what students who cope with executive functioning deficits live with every day, even when school is in session, that feeling of I don't know what's coming next, or I'm overwhelmed at this moment. Or I just did grade on that. But I need a break. And I can don't get a break because I'm in high school, I go to the next class. So they need regrouping they need what they call pre teaching in IEP land. Maybe I could explain that. Because I think a lot about that race, creed teaching design class before the class happens. Yes, out of leg up, because that's what exactly, yeah, so let's let's demystify that, first of all,

Dana Jonson 16:43

by the pre teaching,

Kit Savage 16:44

great teaching, is actually talking about the big concepts that are coming up that week, whether it's in third sixth or 10th grade, and ensuring that your fifth grader who can't decode the word photosynthesis, maybe understands the basic concepts coming up, so that their profile, which learns at a slower process than a neurotypical profile, or working memory is impaired, they are actually teed up to hit the ball, it is not a like up, it is essential, because if the first time they hear the information, it's like, you know, anyone who lives with this knows this is like flying over their heads and gone, but a third time, and there's some kind of support before they hit the classroom, then that student can actually participate in the learning.

Dana Jonson 17:36

And I think I love that you said the third time because you think about that, how many times do you hear parents say, How many times do I have to tell you? Well, the answer there, that would be three, you know how you're used to it, some kids, you actually do need to tell them multiple times in order for it to get into their head. So instead of being upset about the multiple times you need to relate this information, taking a breath back and saying, okay, my child has executive functioning issues, I am going to have to tell them 10 times how to do this. So I have to know not to be triggered by that. And that is next to impossible life for kids with ADHD. I'm not saying that's easy thing to do.

Kit Savage 18:19

I think that that's where the lesson right now is we're I kind of feel like every parent with or without a kid with a disability is is living in a small way our lives because we are self contained. And many, many parents are struggling with even understanding what is the expectation of have my child in school or not. But what you really touched upon to is how frustrating it is to teach coach or parent, a person who seemingly goes Uh huh, a lot. So I have something that I always start with, with with consulting parents and students. And teaching teams is when you hear the word Uh huh. The next question is, okay, let's look at it. Because that's when you know, the rubber meets the road. That's when the study guide that was an aha for two weeks is actually not even started. So they're really skilled at not really wanting to go through those steps, because it's been an aversive process for a really long time. So

Dana Jonson 19:20

when I, when I see that and I say, okay, when I hear that, Aha, I say, Okay, could you repeat back to me what I asked, and the majority of the time they can't because they are so programmed to to me out that they genuinely didn't hear the question.

Kit Savage 19:38

Exactly. So, so if we take out their shaming, that's true. So you're in a classroom setting,

Dana Jonson 19:44

even blame we're trying to eliminate the shame and blame

Kit Savage 19:47

right so shame drives why on any setting in person, classroom or online even more, you're not going to hear a question from this learner necessarily typed in to express I don't understand So that's where even the via zoom a one to one setting, or very, very small group where they're actually comfortable and expressing what they don't know, or what they just didn't do is really essential and has to be really often.

Dana Jonson 20:15

Well, and so I think that when you're talking about that, how much time it takes the first time they do, it shouldn't be the graded time, right. So for some students, they should be able to do it the first time that they should be able to obtain that. But, you know, for a learner who doesn't have those executive functioning skills, they need to have it multiple times in advance, right, because sometimes you hear extra time, and you think that's only after the fact right, but for for

Kit Savage 20:47

an exam, I mean, I think when it comes to study skills, which is what I think we're getting at, they're going to need one of the requests that I make a lot, whether as an advocate or as a coach is contents curriculum in advance, so that this is a student that another student could maybe study for one week in advance, but we're going to start studying two weeks in advance, because it's right, take that much longer. So the extra time in the actual exam, but also, preparing for the exam is going to take longer. And I find a lot of resistance in a lot of settings, that again, that perception of giving a leg up personally, I think the whole curriculum should be up for every student from the beginning. I think that these skills of giving kids content in advance that they could plan, they're learning better giving kids scaffolding is just good teaching. And it should be held back from any student.

Dana Jonson 21:37

Yes, yes. No, just complete. I you know, I think it's that idea that completely individualizing education isn't a bad thing. And that that doesn't mean that kids who learn the way regular schools teach can't continue to learn that way. There's nothing saying that that has to go away. If it's really successful for certain number of kids. I don't think it is, you know, I think it's just what we know, it's not that it's successful. It's what we know, right?

Kit Savage 22:03

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we the other piece, which is checking in after for understanding, yeah, this is a big piece of executive functioning, is you may actually get through the task, the three paragraphs and the conclusion. And two days later be required to be tested on that before then there needs to be a check for what do you recall? What do you understand from that, so that you're ready for that next step, and can build on that because

Dana Jonson 22:32

it's not being graded the first time you do

Kit Savage 22:35

it, or being aware that the learning again, it's sort of like a wave? Where are we in this wave right now, it's going to be variable, it's going to change?

Dana Jonson 22:44

Well, you know, it, it's, it's actually it's paying attention to mastery, not the grade, if it takes you four weeks to learn that math problem, then we're gonna let you take four weeks to learn that math problem. And if it takes you four days, then good for you, you can move on.

Kit Savage 22:59

And that sort of brings me to something that I think is really critical for all students, and particularly bright students who may not have a learning disability, who may struggle with ADHD. So they're in the world of a 504, if they're lucky, which is I think students need to be really active in tracking their own progress. And I missed in the simplest forms possible, but I don't think you can know where you're going unless you know, your, your mistakes and your errors. And where you can improve. And I don't think there's an age that's too young to start that in a positive way. Because the idea is I don't have the skill. Performance wise yet.

Dana Jonson 23:38

Yeah. So that's a big word in our house yet. Yeah. And

Kit Savage 23:42

then and then as a parent, the phrase I keep thinking is act as if it's going to happen. We don't know when, but we're going to get there.

Dana Jonson 23:50

Right? Yes, exactly. You're going to get there. It's just a matter of when. And I think you know, that's an important one, we're talking about these school closures, which everything we're talking about right now is irrelevant, whether we have COVID-19 or not, right? This is all important information, and how we have to break down for kids who have these executive functioning pieces, where those skill sets aren't where those strategies are, but also how do they accommodate for themselves is what I think I'm hearing you say is the goal is if they're never going to get to that skill, then we need to help them understand how they can cope with that and then they need to learn how to be independent with that coping skill.

Kit Savage 24:29

Correct. Exactly. That's that is the life for all of us is how do we adapt to our own learning style and and compensate? Yeah,

Dana Jonson 24:36

how are we going to adapt to different environments from what we learned in school?

Kit Savage 24:40

Yeah, and I know a lot of people talk about and this is something I advocate for too is you know, there are tremendous apps out there and Google Classroom like you started with that look amazing. If you could access all that and guess what, sometimes the printed out planner, where you box off in pencil what you're doing is far more effective than those ask us. I can't tell you how many families say they're really great. My kid won't even open them.

Dana Jonson 25:08

Right? Right now. And I have a student who does fantastic with a written plan or just absolutely fantastic, but just doesn't for whatever reason, maybe it's overwhelming. It doesn't really matter what the reason is, you know, and I, and that bothers me too. And I hear well, that's not really real life. Well, no, but yeah, it is because I choose what kind of planner I use. Do you choose? What kind of plan are you using?

Kit Savage 25:29

Yeah, I went back to paper and a hardcover plan. I

Dana Jonson 25:34

but I mean, that's my point is that Israel life is choosing your own planner, right. So we should be allowing children to have more control over those choices.

Kit Savage 25:45

And also, by tracking with their teacher at school, if they have the benefit of the services, or even with their coach, or their parents are tracking what is actually working, we can open up a dialog with our kid that doesn't start from failure. It's just what's working.

Dana Jonson 26:01

I love that. That's a great perspective. So what is working? And what do we still have to work on?

Kit Savage 26:06

And also what we still have to work on sometimes feels like it's, it's a dictate from somebody else? Yeah, we have to make sure that this students involved in where do you want to be going with this?

Dana Jonson 26:18

Yes, yes. And we do a lot of talking about, well, you might not find this as a goal. However, this goal you have over here, you're going to need this skill. So is it worth your time?

Kit Savage 26:30

Exactly. If you want to become an artist, you're going to need to build a portfolio, which means all your extracurricular stuff at school, your your specials should be geared to that. And if you're not really willing to do that, well, then maybe art school is not in your future. I think that kind of discussion is really beneficial, again, for students who are not necessarily forward thinking, because they've had a lot of failure. And that's also neurologically part of Donald that they're in the moment, right?

Dana Jonson 26:58

Yes. And I think, you know, we there's a lot to being motivated by what you want and what you like. And I think that is a fair thing to say. And there's a level of maturity that comes with that. And I think that when we talk about kids with ADHD, or add, it takes them longer to acquire a lot of skills, and sometimes it can take longer to acquire that level of maturity as well. So expecting them to learn, maintain and generalize a skill at the exact age equivalent of their peers might not be a realistic expectation, would it I don't think it would be.

Kit Savage 27:32

Well, one of the examples that I love is that again, with both of my children language based learning, one went to a private school that was excellent at this when we're in school, but my my other child who went through Publix actually saw the nine books that comprised how to learn to read. And each time he completed one, which was years behind his peers, and then eventually it wasn't, he got to, like, throw the book out. I feel like learning seems endless. If you're middle of trying to catch up whatever that skill is. So any any kind of framework that an educator or parent or a coach can give a student for like, this is what we're getting people and there's an end to it.

Dana Jonson 28:15

Yeah, notch it right at the end of the tunnel. That's right,

Kit Savage 28:19

or you're going to adapt, and you're not going to go into becoming a writer, because it's the thing you hate the most. And I like

Dana Jonson 28:26

the idea when you talk about extended timeline, sometimes I wonder, you know, does it really matter? You know, because the concept is, you're going to get this, you're gonna get it eventually. And we'll just keep working on it until you do. So what is wrong with that extra timeframe?

Kit Savage 28:42

It's the structure of school as we know it. And I think that the other piece of that is, you sort of touched a little bit on which I've worked with parents and students a lot is why not ask, right? Why not ask that question? We need to have this dialogue more and more. And maybe out of this experience, there will be more discussion of what is the real expectation that we're giving our kids? Are we putting them on the treadmill just for the sake of being on the treadmill? Yeah, the outcome of this? What is what is it? What's the purpose? or would I rather a child take longer and do three paragraphs? Well, and not great? Three pages? Absolutely.

Dana Jonson 29:17

Yeah. Well, one of my children has a specific math disability as well as ADHD. And yes, she's waving at me from across the room right now. Because there's six of us in our house is six workstations. So we overlap a little bit but you know, what we said was unless she decides she really wants to go into a field that requires math, you know, let's get her through algebra and make sure she has all those appropriate functional skills, but I don't see the purpose and tormenting her with calculus, or with you. I mean, what I would rather work on something else that will build up a strength for her rather than focusing on weakness that yes, she needs but not not at a higher level.

Kit Savage 29:56

I think that's that's a really great point is working from strength. which we don't get to as parents really focused on in education, we are entirely focused, because we have to be in ensuring weaknesses are addressed. But there are strengths within that. And we need to look at those as well. And again, what's the purpose I was asked this in all my presentation is what is the actual purpose of an education? The purpose, to me, the purpose is to be a functioning member of society, to have a way to make a living, to contribute to society, and to have a good life that's functioning. So always require calculus, it didn't for me,

Dana Jonson 30:36

No, and that's what I say, it's to be the most independent that you can, you know, happy and safe and as independent as possible, and a contributing member of society, a contributing member of society, who is as independent as possible.

Kit Savage 30:51

And while there are, of course, expectations throughout the process, I think that that's where the growth mindset comes in. That's where the research shows that motivationally to think about you, you are not going to all be on the exact same timeframe. So we're going to be working incrementally and ambitiously, I think that's a relief for a lot of families to recognize. Yeah. And I think sometimes

Dana Jonson 31:14

we think that oh, that, you know, maybe they need specialized instruction. And the reality is no, they just need more, you know, they see more time or they just need more repetition, they're going to get there too. And you don't even really necessarily have to change much about it other than it has to take longer.

Kit Savage 31:33

Well. And I would say that in general also that when we bring it back to the executive functioning, they do need a, like an instructor of coach, another being my personal rule is when your child hits 12. So right before the teen years, the family, you are biologic teen years, you are not built to teach your child executive functioning skills, because you are in a normal, it's like developmentally appropriate for them to pull away. And yet the increases in the workload at school, you need a case manager, you need someone who you can trust, whether it's a teacher or a coach, or another adult who understands executive functioning well, to kind of go over this and keep checking in and keep checking in because that that really does have to happen otherwise, is that fall off the map.

Dana Jonson 32:21

Yes. And I think that is a really good point that it can be really hard for parents to be the ones to do it. And actually, yeah, I mean, you know, I have I have four kids all have ADHD, and I haven't My husband has has it. So it's actually the opposite of isolating over here, the opposite.

Kit Savage 32:39

I think that right now, and I'm just speaking about now, but it's every day, parents beat themselves up for not knowing how to keep their kid keeping up. I mean, this is this is a spiral of guilt. And I want to say like, you're not able to do this for a kid with identified issues in these areas. So take a deep breath, either advocate through the school for actual study skills, which

Dana Jonson 33:07

are Yeah, so what are your recommendations for parents right now, and we're talking about executive functioning pieces. And, you know, they applied education, no matter how it's delivered. So for parents who are struggling right now and saying it's not working the right way, or they're not grasping it, maybe all the other kids are what what is your recommendation? What are parents need to be doing?

Kit Savage 33:26

Okay, so I go back to basics, we talked a little bit earlier about having, you know, a hardcopy paper pen. The first thing, if if there is an IEP in place, I think it's sort of an eye opening experience for families to actually put it in a usable chart like, seriously two columns, type it up, don't look at the 42 page document, and check in on what is working, if we're going to do that exercise, are there kids anyway. And if they're old enough to fifth sixth grade, they should actually read what they're supposed to be doing in an IEP. And they can start to input back and say, well, this did not happen at all. And this I'm okay with. And in a very informal way, they do not have to know the acronyms. They don't have to know prompt levels. They can say, my child I sat with and I had to model how to do a patent paragraph, I had to start the sentence for that child to finish the sentence, but their goal doesn't actually match where they're functioning. That's sort of the investigation part that you just keep a running list every week of what's happening with you that

Dana Jonson 34:27

even if we're not on quarantine, right, that's a good recommendation regardless, right? It is,

Kit Savage 34:33

it is and then for the there's a huge another reason I went into coaching for executive functioning is there's just a huge cohort of kids that don't require special education in the way that we look at it now. So they have five oh fours, if they're lucky, but they're struggling, they're struggling. So for those parents, it really is opening up the dialogue if they can with their their kid to say, you know, this is what executive functioning is at work. Want to figure out where you really need some extra help, because a lot of the times the communication from the school is they missed the assignment, it was up on Google Classroom. And we really don't know what's going on.

Dana Jonson 35:13

Well in for a student who may be when it's about going to classroom and interacting with the teacher directly and having a child sit next to them, that's a friend that maybe they sometimes can ask for a prompt, or they write it in their journal, everything about how they're receiving this information is different now. So if they did have little things in place to help remind them, they're gone?

Kit Savage 35:34

Well, and that's actually a great point. I can't emphasize enough when when students have IEP s that says when prompted for study skills. The very next question I have is, what does that look like? What is the skill you're expecting? And I think this is the Discovery now as to whether these children have enough support that, you know, modeling is a prompt, I'm going to show you just full is a prompt. And I think that we don't have the emails for certain percentage of these kids. It's simply not working, whether they have EF deficits or not. And that's important for families to know about their students, because it's going to impact the rest of their education to

Dana Jonson 36:13

well, and to point out it's not just when you talk about prompts, I think one of the reasons that's really important is a prompt could be a timer. Right? So if you're teaching a student to be more independent, that prompt, right, couldn't couldn't have probably a timer beeping. Yeah, when given. So that's a prompt as well, that might be a prompt that leads them to more independence, right? Because as we said that them as independent as possible. So that deeper might be moving them towards a much more independent place, because they're not relying on you to prompt them. But prompts aren't necessarily a bad thing.

Kit Savage 36:45

They're not. They're excellent. The question to ask now is what prompt is working and what isn't? So if it says When prompted, then the email didn't work. So now it's time to talk to my case manager and say, Is it a FaceTime? Is it a Google touch base 10 minutes a day, during office hours in the afternoon that has to be scheduled? So yeah, prompt tells you where you're at. And when prompted is so broad that most parents, understandably, never thought about this before. What did that really look like? A lot of educators don't they're diving in to help the student. They're not necessarily standing back and saying, wait a minute for that student. I'm not just prompting, I'm actually showing and demonstrating. And then they're, they're reflecting the learning back and forth. I think it's not a habit that we're in. We're doing a lot of data collection on in general.

Dana Jonson 37:38

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, everything has changed right now. Think we're taking data on everything, right? Because everything has changed, and it's completely different. So a lot of what you would say you recommend for parents whose children are suffering with their executive functioning components right now is take the data, keep track and ask, don't be afraid to ask. Yeah, I would say try try again. And then try something different.

Kit Savage 38:05

And data is a big word. I think data is notes, data is whatever. But you're really good

Dana Jonson 38:11

point. When I say when I hear data, I think numbers I do. And I know what I'm saying right now. But I You're right, that's a really good point. Data doesn't just mean numbers.

Kit Savage 38:21

No, it's not. It's a narrative. And I think that the communication back, imagining teachers teaching to zoom rooms where there is no participation back at them, there's zoom fatigue being researched right now that actually useful information for your teacher to have about how your your child is learning and where the gaps are, because teachers are being incredibly innovative right now. And that can only inform them, it's collaborative,

Dana Jonson 38:48

I have an issue that might be a little more add specific than executive functioning. But on these zoom calls, every time one of those children moves, and their little box starts moving your child's distracted, right? So every time a kid looks out the window, your child is looking at their box. So just using Zoom alone can derail a child.

Kit Savage 39:12

There's a lot of cognitive dissonance with that experience. There's just a recent article out about for adults, it's you know, they're saying they're more tired, sitting home and working. And it's because there's no body language, you're you're required to interpret a 10 boxes over and over throughout a meeting and process that and interpret that. And I can only imagine for students, that's even harder. So yeah, this is not an easy time. And I think that this is a really good time for people start looking at their own self regulation and saying, If I'm struggling let's keep in mind that we're all struggling with fun.

Dana Jonson 39:50

One thing that I was doing I am a zoom thing I had to do with kids, the high school thing was I'm going to be asking them to use the same blank background because Everyone's looking at what's in somebody's background and Oh, are they sitting outside? Are they in the kitchen. But if we all have the same blank background, then there's nothing to look at but the person,

Kit Savage 40:10

I love that that's a great adaptation to a new way of learning. That's excellent. That's

Dana Jonson 40:16

exactly that's a different way to reduce the distractions. Yes. That's exactly why this is such a challenging time for kids with executive functioning issues, because maybe something didn't distract them in their house, maybe they were never distracted in Job geometry. And now suddenly, there's one kid who's got stuff going on behind them and they can't read, I read somewhere that it takes, if you get distracted from something, it takes a full 90 seconds for you to actually be able to get back on task that's happening throughout your class, because somebody's moving in the zoom window,

Kit Savage 40:50

well, and then you have to hold the information while looking at you know, the Brady Bunch times 10 have to manipulate it and retrieve it after you hang up the zoom and actually do the assignment. Yeah. And

Dana Jonson 41:04

I'm zooming with adults who can't do that. That's right. So

Kit Savage 41:08

I think that that's that kind of sums up, I feel like every area of executive functioning challenge can be tapped on in distance learning. And then there's areas that it's really excellent for, like you were saying, you have a child where the structure of the day, online is a preference on her own profile. So there are kids doing better in some ways,

Dana Jonson 41:31

right? So important, because now that's something that we need to know. And we did it. We did discover that a couple of years ago when she did a digital class, and it was like, Okay, now we know, what are the components of that she can't do all digital classes. She can't sit in her room and just do it that way. But what are those components of that digital class that that worked for her that we can then replicate in a different environment, and it's the structure and it's a clear cut, beginning and end. And you know, it's everything laid out and written out? Because there's none of that interaction. Everything has to be written out in great detail.

Kit Savage 42:06

Exactly. So for kids that struggle with social, this could be a relief, is that totally,

Dana Jonson 42:10

this is like their jam.

Kit Savage 42:13

They're thrilled. That's right. That's right.

Dana Jonson 42:16

So Well, thank you so much. This is so great. And I really appreciate it because executive functioning is so important, and I think does kind of get swept over with add in. And we don't spend a lot of time focusing on it, and especially right now, and where kids are and where we all are, that to have a little patience and take a little extra time.

Kit Savage 42:37

And to give a kid a structure that works for them. And just realize that right now in particular, but just generally, the feeling we all have now is how they kids with deficits in these areas feel in a typical school day. And I think that gives us a different perspective. Maybe Oh, I

Dana Jonson 42:54

love that. That's so true. This stress that all of the regular children are feeling in this new format is how a lot of children with disabilities feel on a daily basis when things are quote unquote, normal,

Kit Savage 43:06

right? Yeah. I didn't even say not just children, but adults as well. Yes,

Dana Jonson 43:11

yes. And we have to remember ourselves as well. We're impacted too. So somebody's listening. And they say, Oh, my God, I need to talk to kid savage. Because I got to find out more about this executive functioning stuff. How would they find you?

Kit Savage 43:23

They can reach me, I have an Instagram site, savage advocates, but my email is kit at savage advocates.com. And I also have a Facebook page. So I appreciate

Dana Jonson 43:35

I put out again, I'll put all that in the show notes. So you'll give me all the very specific links and I will put those in there. But Excellent, great. So we'll find you online if we need you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Kit Savage 43:46

Thank you, I mean there.

Dana Jonson 43:48

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications whenever new episodes are available. You can also find this podcast on his website at special ED dot life. You can follow me on Instagram at special ED dot life or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. I want to know what you want to know. So please reach out with your comments and questions. And I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a great day

What you need to know about Animal Assisted Play Therapy™! Today we talk with Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT, about what animal play therapy is, how it works, and who should do it. Diane is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Connecticut and a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in New York. She partners with her eight-year-old golden retriever, Shannon, who is AAPT-Approved and a Certified Facility Therapy Dog.

When working with clients in private practice as well as in school districts, Diane incorporates into her practice play therapy and Animal Assisted Play Therapy™. Join us as we discuss what is animal play therapy and it is different from other therapies, tips/warnings for parents interviewing animal play therapists for their child, and tips/tricks for parents now, quarantined at home with students experiencing an unprecedented amount of anxiety.

Diane Dioguardi can be reached via email at [email protected] "The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor 'Can they talk?' but 'Can they suffer?'" ~ Jeremy Bentham

Episode Link: https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/the-question-is-not-can-they-reason-nor-can-they-talk-but-can-they-help

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDSdog, child, animal, work, therapy, therapist, training, trained, play, animal assisted, session, telemedicine, talking, client, therapy dogs, people, equine therapy, helps, find, therapy session

SPEAKERSDana Jonson, Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT

Dana Jonson 00:03

Hello, and welcome to need to know a Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson. And I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your school's obligations, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear or comment on, you can find me and this podcast at special ED dot life. You can also find me on Instagram at special ED dot life. Or you can email me, Dana at special ED dot life. Now the first thing you need to know is that sometimes I have a bit of a potty mouth. So if your environment isn't ready for that, feel free to pop in your earbuds. Okay, let's get started. Today we're meeting with Diane de Gordy who is a licensed counselor in both Connecticut and New York. And she's also a registered play therapy counselor. Correct? I say that right? play therapist. Yeah, play therapist. Okay. And today, what we're going to talk about is what I'm most interested about as you're an animal play therapist. Right, right. Animal Assisted play therapy, Animal Assisted play therapy. And I've seen you work with a number of children. And so that's really what I wanted to get into today. What is animal play therapy? What does that mean? And how is it different from other areas? So why don't we start with how did you become an animal play therapist? How did you find yourself here?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 01:55

Well, in my first profession, I am also a licensed veterinary technician. So for a while, for over 20 years, 25 years, I worked in veterinary medicine. So when I went back to graduate school and got my master's in mental health counseling, I decided that I wanted to keep the link, my passion of working with animals kind of alive in this new field also. So I had known about therapy dogs and things like that, but I didn't know how it could relate to the field that I had just become licensed in. So I did some research. And there's a whole field of Animal Assisted play therapy. And there's a woman called Risa VanFleet, who is kind of the psychologist who started the International Association of Animal Assisted play therapy. And I contacted her and she has this whole training where you can become certified as an animal assisted play therapist, and I had to do it backwards a little bit. First, you have to become registered as a play therapist, and get your play therapy certification to do it the way I wanted to do it. There's other ways you can do it if you're not a therapist, and then I went for the certification for Animal Assisted play therapy. So all in all, it took about three years to do everything. And wow.

Dana Jonson 03:20

So quickly, before we get more into the animal component, what is that difference between play therapy and typical therapy? Or? I know, there are a lot of different types of therapies. But I think, you know, we hear the term play therapy as it pertains to children all the time. Right, right. It's not really I'm not clear on it, other than I guess you do that with kids,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 03:42

right. So play therapy is thought of as a modality that you use with children.

Dana Jonson 03:48

So it's like one modality, it's not, it's not the way you work with children, but it's no

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 03:53

work with them one way, you can also use it with adolescents and adults. Okay, it is a playful approach where you're creating an atmosphere that is kind of light and a lot more relaxed. And that helps reduce the person stress decreases resistance when you're dealing just with children play is the language of children. So a lot of people think of play therapists as well. You're just going to have a child in a therapy session and you're going to play with them. It's really that the communication is through the child's play. So the child is telling you what is going on, by the way they're playing. So it's not necessarily that you're playing with them and asking questions

Dana Jonson 04:41

about you're analyzing how they're playing. we're

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 04:44

analyzing how they're playing. So we create a scenario that might be similar to a scenario that maybe one of their caregivers has told us about, or I worked a lot with kids in the foster care system, so it was

Dana Jonson 04:58

okay, too much Children are adopted through foster care.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 05:01

Okay, so it was very helpful to break down the resistance, you know, and build the trust. So it's not necessarily just playing with children the play is their communication. And the play therapy allows them to communicate to you in a non threatening way. Because they relax is really good for building relationships, teaching a child how to be trusting and flexible, helping them to be able to maybe tackle problems that they wouldn't be able to talk about just sitting talking to you. Yeah, well, there's all kinds of strategies you can use, there's all kinds of techniques, I work more with a directive style of play therapy, which is I create a scenario, there's a child centered play therapy, where the child kind of creates what's going on, they just come into the playroom, and they start to play. And then you go on their lead, when I'm working with the dogs that I work with, they're more in tune to a directive style. So I use a more directive style where I kind of set up a scenario and say, This is what we're going to do today. And then the child starts playing, and I engaged with them.

Dana Jonson 06:15

I know that when to my daughters, who we adopted through foster care came to live with us, we had a therapist who used to come to the house and work with all of them. And a lot of times how he would do that would be through playing games. And it was interesting, because you know, at first I was like, Are they just playing uno all the time, like, I don't understand what the difference is. But then he would come talk to me, and he had these really insightful things to say about all of my children. So I get thing I was like, Well, I guess it's working. But I hadn't really thought about that. But so it's not necessarily that you have to use it with children, it's you can use it with older people

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 06:49

you don't I mean, the traditionally, a traditional play therapist will tell you it's for children, range of 12 and younger, three to 12 is what you learned in school, but I am most play therapists, we branch out and you can use different variations of it for adolescents, a lot of the adolescents that I work with, chronologically, they may be a certain age, but their maturity level is a lot younger, or so a lot of the play therapy techniques really speak to them. And then even with adults to break the resistance, some adult just sitting on the couch and chatting back and forth is not really what they can do, you bring a sand tray out, you bring some miniatures out, and it really opens up a different communication style that speaks to them. So

Dana Jonson 07:42

so it helps them drop their guard we've done is that

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 07:47

the resistance usually drops very quickly. And then you can if they're not resistant, if they can relax and they start to trust you, then the the more heavier issues that might really be bothering them, they just kind of organically begin to come out because they're not guarded anymore.

Dana Jonson 08:07

Got it. That's amazing. So now how does the play therapy then translate into the Animal Assisted play therapy.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 08:15

So Animal Assisted play therapy is a combination of animal assisted therapy, it's kind of a marriage of animal assisted therapy and play therapy. And you take components of both of them, and we meshed it together. And that's where Animal Assisted play therapy came out. So that is why before you really can become an animal assisted play therapy, it's best to have the foundation in play therapy, because a lot of it is based on the play therapy foundation. So

Dana Jonson 08:45

you could be an animal play therapist, but not a regular therapist

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 08:51

is that yeah, you wouldn't be called an animal assisted play therapist. Okay, there are different titles so you can get trained in Animal Assisted play interventions Animal Assisted, so though use different kinds of with it, but you wouldn't be fully certified. But there are some teachers, some therapists that like physical therapists or occupational therapists who are still are being trained in this modality, but they wouldn't necessarily be certified as a therapist. They will have certification in Animal Assisted interventions or something like

Dana Jonson 09:27

okay, so it wouldn't be it wouldn't say therapist if they weren't a licensed therapists. Exactly. There may be other ways to utilize the animal play components, but if they're not, okay, I understand and I just want to make sure because I think you know, I think in there are a lot of terms and we're not going to get into them because I know there are vast differences with how animals are can be used successfully. And there are

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 09:52

most of it comes whenever therapy is used with an animal, whether it be animal assisted therapy or not. Most just play therapy, the big difference is when it's a therapy, it's usually a trained person. And in this case, we're trained animal working together to help somebody else. Okay, so So when a dog is just trained to help somebody as, say, an assistance dog, that dog is trained to help somebody with a disability, there's not a third person in there. But when it's a therapy, you have a therapist, you have a trained therapist, you have a trained dog, and that team is working to help somebody.

Dana Jonson 10:33

So that was me. My question was, you need to be a therapist, and you need to go through all of your schooling and practicums and all that to become a therapist, then you go through the training to become an animal play therapist, what does the animal have to do? Does the animal have to be trained?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 10:47

Absolutely, yeah. So it's actually quite intensive part of it is innate biological, genetic makeup of the animal where the animal has to have a certain temperament to be able to even be a dog or a horse, or there are a couple of different species, dogs and horses are what I'm trained in. But there, you can do cats, and some, some of the smaller pocket pets can be done. But if the temperament and what we call the goodness of fit isn't there, if the animal doesn't have the right temperament for this type of work, then it's not fair to the animal to subject them to this type of work, because it probably would increase their stress level.

Dana Jonson 11:33

So it's not something you can take any animal and we can just say, Okay, this, this, here's this puppy, and we're definitely going to make that our animal, right? You're looking for something to start with, right? You're right. So you can make

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 11:43

you can take the puppy who you think would be a good animal system, play therapy dogs, I did that with my two year old lab that I have now. And there are certain breeds that tend to be more inclined to different parts of Animal Assisted play therapy. Just because a dog might be really active doesn't mean doesn't rule them out, it just might rule them out for certain parts of animals is to play therapy.

Dana Jonson 12:09

Got it? So I hear mostly with my students or clients who are students, I usually hear more about the dog and the horse. And what's what's the term for the horse therapy? Because I don't want to get it wrong. Isn't there a term for that? Specifically,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 12:22

there's a couple of different I mean, a gala is a big one here, which is different types of the horse, the equine therapy, yes, equine therapy, that's what I write some of it, some of it's when the client will actually ride the horse. And that is part of the therapy component. And some of it, the client never gets on top of the horse, it's more relationship building. Yeah, and that is the animal system play therapy component with a horse, the person doesn't get on top of the horse, relationship building, and you're using the horse in the same way you would a dog in the session, it's just outside or in a barn and or what you're doing is similar, but different because the animals bigger.

Dana Jonson 13:11

Well, and I think it's really important to understand these components, because I know that when I started practicing, as an attorney in Connecticut 15 years ago, and I had a client who was engaged or whose child was engaged in equine therapy, and they really wanted it, but it was still considered kind of unheard of it was kind of considered not real. And now it's, it's well respected. And I well, most places, it's well respected. It should be and we have the science behind it and all of that. So, you know, it's it's interesting to, to hear all these components, because I think it's very easy to say, oh, equine therapy, they just want to ride horses, but that's really not at all what it is, right? You're using that animal in that relationship, and that

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 13:52

component of the relationship and trust and a lot of people, it's even used in adults who might have attachment issues and issues with having trouble mastering things and their self confidence and their self esteem. When you can learn to work with an animal, whether it be a dog or a horse, and the animal just has this unconditional response to you that isn't judgmental at all, it really helps to boost your self worth and that can help you with all the other issues that you're dealing with.

Dana Jonson 14:24

Certainly, I mean, kids have to feel safe or anybody has to feel safe and secure in order to be vulnerable enough for any kind of therapy to be successful.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 14:34

Yeah. And then you work towards gaining mastery and whatever you're working at and then the sense of self satisfaction that you get from that really, you see the growth just really it can expand to all different types of areas in your life. So

Dana Jonson 14:50

yeah, definitely. And I mean when I you know, when I first learned of this and had every client I've had who's who's used it and not a ton, but everyone I have I've seen the progress that their students make. And

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 15:04

yeah, you know, even with frustration, tolerance is huge, especially with, you know, a younger child who is on

Dana Jonson 15:12

the spectrum I have a lot, you know, most of those students that I'm talking about, we're students on the spectrum. And as you said, the frustration levels and the ability to practice all of that with an animal makes such a difference.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 15:25

I've had a lot of students on the spectrum who communication, just talking to an adult is really hard. But if you turn the session to the focus of you're not talking to me, as a therapist, they're making eye contact with the dog, and they're learning how to communicate to the dog, everything they're doing with the dog then will relate to their social skills with the adults in their life. So it's

Dana Jonson 15:48

taking those skills down to an even a much more safe or secure space. Right? Yeah, you're saying the animal is going to respond to them, non judgmentally, they don't have to worry about it. If you play with the dog, it will play back with you. So,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 16:03

you know, play back with you. And these dogs are trained to, first you're training the dog as the therapist. So you're working toward

Dana Jonson 16:11

the Yeah, so what was so tell us about that, tell me what the what the training process is for the actual animal for the dog, right. So primarily with the dogs,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 16:20

first, you get trained in Animal Assisted play therapy as the therapist, right, you learn what it's about, you work with dogs, a lot of its online training in the beginning. And then you know, you have to write papers and be able to learn the history behind

Dana Jonson 16:39

all the things that come with any kind of training or degree. Very, very fun stuff,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 16:45

there's been a lot of research to prove the benefits of it, it's

Dana Jonson 16:48

sure that no, that's what I love is it that we now have the science when I when I was starting to advocate for this, we didn't have the science behind it. And now we planned it.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 16:57

And now we have the science. And then what you do is most people have a dog that they would like to become their animal assisted play therapy dogs. So you start training this dog, but in your training before you've learned about body language, animal communication, signs, basically to pick up stressing the dog, basically, to pick up what the dog is communicating to you during the session, the use of that expert,

Dana Jonson 17:23

and not just the child, but also the animal

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 17:27

back. So you have to be able to split your attention is, is yeah, we call. So in a session, you're paying attention to what the your client is doing. But you're also paying attention to the signals that the dog is giving you. So if they're giving you stress signals, or if they're giving you that they're uncomfortable with something, or that they're eager to join in, and you haven't asked them to join in yet, you know, you just pick up on their body language, a lot of the dogs that I work with are trained in hand signals. So you know, if I need them to do something, and I'm talking to the client, I can just give the dog as pan signal to either lay down or come to me or pick something up. And they can do that at the same time. So I can actually communicate to both.

Dana Jonson 18:14

So they don't need the verbal, you just make you know, a lot of

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 18:17

younger dogs do under training one dog now. And the way you do it is you start with verbal and hand signals, and you slowly back off from the verbal and they'll usually respond to the hand signals. But I guess the first most important thing is the relationship between you and the dog. So you're building that relationship really solid obedience skills are important. So the sweetest dog in the world can have the potential to become a really good animal assisted play therapy dog because they have a really nice temperament and they're very social. But if if they aren't able to be managed with basic obedience skills, sit, stay calm, things like that, then it would be really hard to split your attention during a session because you know, you would have to manage the dog spend too much time managing the dog, and then you wouldn't be able to pay attention to the client's need

Dana Jonson 19:15

well, and I would imagine that no matter how much you know about the child, or how much you know about therapy, or animal play therapy, if you personally are not good at training a dog, which is a completely different skill set. As I'm learning, we just got a puppy. So I'm learning that skill set myself. It's a completely different skill set than what you think and you can be great at other things but not training a dog. So

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 19:41

a great point and see for me because of my first profession. I also showed dogs for a while when I was younger. So I had a very good foundation in canine communication and training but for a lot of people who go into this maybe They've never trained a dog before. So that's the biggest barrier. And that takes some time then to learn how to train the dog and learn how to work with the dog and communicate with the dog, and what is the dog telling me just with his body language and stuff? So then you have to have a dog that enjoys it, because enjoy what they're doing, then then they shouldn't be asked to do it. Yeah,

Dana Jonson 20:26

no, I just had to laugh. Because I, you know, I could imagine, you could have a very well trained dog who will follow your orders, but not be engaging in a in a productive manner, right.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 20:37

So some dogs get bored very easily, you know, a lot of what you're asking them to do in an animal assisted play therapy session might be repetition, you may be asking the child to do it over and over to help them maybe they're working on communication skills, or self esteem. And, and so you want to build mastery and to build mastery, you're doing things over and over again. So lots of repetition. But if a dog though, then says, Nope, I don't want to do that anymore. You don't want a robotic perfect dog. Because in the moment, when things happen, that's always the most organic way for everyone to learn. So if I, if I ask my dog Shannon to do something, and she doesn't do it, well, then the child and I then can turn that into a discussion about, Oh, do you know anyone else who sometimes doesn't want to do what they're told, you know, and, and so it can really branch into their life and to and

Dana Jonson 21:35

I can imagine, that's the case on anything. I mean, I think of my own experiences with with therapy, going into a session and thinking this is exactly what I need to talk about, and I'm ready to go. And somehow we end up somewhere completely different. Because that was just, I, you know, I didn't know what I needed to be doing. Or, you know, the session or the vibe, or the field just goes in a different direction. And so yeah, that makes sense that that would happen with children and animals, too.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 22:02

Yeah. And then we might say, so what do you think she's feeling right now about the dog? Why do you think she doesn't want to and then just helping them show empathy towards another creature, whether it be a dog or a person, it builds that skill set in them. And you know, a lot of times children have trouble understanding others feelings and paying attention to that. So then once the dog kind of once you've determined, well, this dog has a good foundation, then you go to the level two training and the level two training is when you go and it's usually a week long hands on training that you go to where Risa VanFleet has her training, which is all over the world. You know, I found I went to her trainings, always in Pennsylvania, but she partnered with someone in over in England. She's done Australia. She's all over the place. She's the go to for she used to go to Yeah.

Dana Jonson 22:59

And what was her name again? Can

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 23:00

you say that again? Um, Risa Van Fleet. So she's ologists.

Dana Jonson 23:05

And I'll put that in the show notes. I put everything we talked about in the show notes. So if anyone wants to go back and find that they can,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 23:11

yeah, it's her first name is it's a very unique first name, but it's spelt R I S, E, and then Van Fleet. And she is a psychologist who is also a play therapist. And She now runs the International Institute of Animal Assisted play therapy. So wow, that's who does this, the worldwide certification for it, and there's a website and anyone who's been certified is listed on that website. Oh, great. So then the dogs become trained. And she watches you do the hands on with the dogs and give, you know, you get pointers, and you really, it's a very intensive training. But then what happens is, then you have to do a certain number of hours of supervision. So a lot of it's done through, you know, computer supervision, but you have to do a case

Dana Jonson 24:08

everything is done through computer supervision right now, that may have been a foreign concept at one point, but right now

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 24:16

you have to send videos back of the dog working and really the dog has to be found to be sound not perfect. We're not looking for perfection. It's okay if the dog you know, doesn't listen, the first time were things like that, but it's a sound temperament where the dog can be as close to being 100% predictable as possible, right, but it's still an animal. So animals sometimes there's no 100% When it comes to vape and most people you know anything with a heartbeat. So, you know, there's a code of ethics that you follow that you try and make it so that you minimize the chance of anything unpredictable happening it when you work with your clients, it's you're always very upfront about, there'll be a dog in Session. And, you know, here's the positives to having a dog. But here's also, you know, you go over the pros and the cons. And you know that a lot of people ask about allergies and things like that.

Dana Jonson 25:21

Yeah, I love hearing all this because it is so intensive. And there is so much training and supervision that goes on, both for the therapist and the animal. And I do think there's a misconception, that animal play therapy animal, that you're just having an animal in the room, or you're just having them in the session, or it's it's just play, but it's it's really a science, and it's is.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 25:46

You know, there's a lot of therapists who bring their dogs to work, right. And sure, so their dogs might be at the therapy session, and they're probably very beneficial to for the clients that they see. But that's different than what I do with my wife, my dogs. I love having animals around all the time. But yeah, it's it's different. And when people hear of animal therapy, they really think a lot of kind of the dogs that go to the hospitals and volunteer. Yes, and yes. And I find that training too. So

Dana Jonson 26:21

sure. And there's other training for that. But and I think that's a good distinction, too. And I think also, there are lots of, you know, when you talk about whether it's something like an emotional support animal that's completely separate, that's a completely different thing. When you're talking about, as you said, the therapy animals who go into nursing, assisted living in nursing homes, thank you, your nursing homes, or airports or, you know, things like that there's a training for that. But those aren't actual play therapy certified dogs?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 26:49

No, no, there's all different levels. And there's, there's a lot of different hats that come with the therapy term, as

Dana Jonson 26:56

far as I'm sure there's a ton of overlap, there's a

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 26:59

lot of overlap, there's a lot of overlap. I mean, all of my dogs are also Pet Partners certified. So pet partner, partner, pet, so Pet Partners, it's an agency who are truly a nonprofit, that that those are the dogs that get certified as volunteer therapy dogs. So they they're going to libraries to read with kids, they're going into nursing homes. So you know, on Sundays, my lab and I go to a nursing home where we were until right now, but but we go to a nursing home and visit. So those type of therapy dogs are totally, it's on a volunteer basis, and you and your dog have gone through training, and you're there to support the emotional needs of others. In just your dog's presence is doing it, you know, just by your dog being by this, seeing the dog by them petting the dog, it's not goal driven. There's no treatment plan, you know, all the children that I work with in therapy, there's a treatment plan that speaks to okay, what are the needs of the child? And how can working with the dog help benefit those needs. So the treatment plan written with objectives and goals and, and so that it's much different than

Dana Jonson 28:19

during those? Yeah, and you're and you're measuring outcomes, and you're measuring

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 28:23

outcomes and things like that, when you're when you're volunteering, you're you're going to brighten up somebody's day, provide support, provide some level of enjoyment to help somebody that way. And, you know, but there's no, it's not necessarily goal driven.

Dana Jonson 28:42

Right. Well, I mean, there is there is a benefit to I mean, even just now and they talked about it's there's a benefit to being outside, right that if you put a plant on your desk, it actually their physical benefits to it because you're spraying some form of nature, right. And that, you know, I remember once hearing that fish tanks are recommended to heart attack victims because watching a fish tank helps calm you

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 29:03

calm and get out petting. petting a dog does the same thing. It helps. It helps to calm you. It really helps to relax you the endorphins that you get from it. It's wonderful to be able to volunteer, and yeah, with your pet. And you know, those dogs also, like if it's through Pet Partners every two years that dogs need to get recertified. It's about temperament. It's about making sure that the dogs can handle an unpredictable environment. You know, as

Dana Jonson 29:32

you said that they want to do it too, you know, I present it they don't they may present as not being very well trained.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 29:39

Exactly, exactly. You don't want them to be shy or timid. You know, there are a lot of like with people who dogs who don't like to socially interact, you know, they're more or introverted and they're fine at home and they're great with their family, but you bring them out into the community, and they become a little more reserved. little more timid, that might not necessarily be the type of dog who would want to go into a hospital setting where, you know, there's a lot going on, or you want to be able to determine predictability to the best that you can.

Dana Jonson 30:16

So what a parents look for, I mean, if they're looking for play therapy and, and as you said, I mean, I've seen amazing results from that animal play therapy with children on the spectrum and developing empathy. And, and as you said, working on some of those social skills, actually, I've seen tremendous progress when they're starting with an animal. As you said, that's not the ultimate goal, the ultimate goal is to then generalize that skill. But for children who aren't grasping it through the human interaction, or, you know, a lot of social skills are taught through pictures, and some kids just don't grasp that. So to be able to have that in person and with an animal that's going to respond in a way that will be beneficial to the child so that they can work on those pieces. So if parents are looking for animal play therapists, and again, because I think that it's critical to understand that an animal play therapy dog is different than many other terms, you know, as you said it, animal play intervention, or, you know, there are other there are service dogs, there's motional, support things, there's, you know, they're all different pieces. So, when a parent is looking, they want to make sure that their therapist didn't just happen to bring the dog to work that day. So what can parents do to ask and, and to interview their therapist and know it's the right fit for their child?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 31:36

That's a great question. A lot of therapists will say that they do play therapy, a lot of therapists will say they have a therapy dog. And it's really asking about the training about the training for the therapist, but also the training for the dog and, you know, kind of asking specific questions in regard to types of what a session would look like that that's always really good. So

Dana Jonson 32:01

what session look like,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 32:03

it depends on what age child you're looking for, right? But if someone is saying, well, the dog will be there, and the child can pet the dog, and it'll help the child relax, and it's very vague and not specific, then I would, you know, dig a little deeper and see, but you can ask specifics, like, okay, my child has anxiety, how could working with your dog help my child with anxiety, you know, and in my case, I'd be able to let them know specifics, such as we're going to work on self esteem, we're going to work on letting your child first get to meet the dog. Now, a play therapist who's been trained knows that when a new child comes, or a new client comes, even if it's an adult, the dog shouldn't be there in the first session, you should be talking about the dog, maybe showing a picture of the dog and then actually teach the client, the right way to interact with the dog. So you know, giving those big bear hugs to the dogs and things like that on a dog that you don't know that could be dangerous. So you don't you want to teach the client from the beginning, proper ways to greet a dog. So this way, they can take that out into the community, too. You know, and a child shouldn't think that they can just go up and hug any dog.

Dana Jonson 33:27

No, I haven't I have a child like that. My I've never been able to keep my son away from a dog ever. And thank God, we haven't had an issue with it. But I've literally never I mean, that was half his childhood was we have to stop and ask, you have to stop.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 33:41

So that's what we do first, you know, before that, so, you know, that's always a good sign that Oh, wow, this therapist, she really cares and teach the child right? And then you break down? How can you know, we were talking about the example of anxiety. So how can the dog help with anxiety, it would be things like, we're going to help build self esteem, say it's social anxiety in social situations. So the child will be involved in maybe training the dog to learn new skills to help build her self esteem and self confidence. And then maybe we're going to have the child work with the dog to create some type of a skit or scenario or training routine that they've trained, and then they can actually present it to the parents and show them what they've used and help them with verbal cues and things. So it should be something in depth like that, not just, you know, while the dog will be here, and she gets nervous, she could pet the dog, you know, right? There's always a

Dana Jonson 34:46

specific goals and objectives. And this is what we're going to do to achieve them and this is how we're going to measure them. So like the example you said, if you're using the animal to create a skit, then you know that that outcome is the skit, right? So it's not just about do you want to play with the animal? And do you want to do a skit with them, you're, you're hearing something measured and

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 35:08

got it. And the key is that it's playful. And if it's okay, and the environment is relaxed type of environment, most of the time, humans will, their guard will come down, and they'll be able to grow more, absorb more, learn more, and be able to work on really tough, they'll let that tougher things come up, and not be afraid to approach them, because the environment has become supportive and trusting and relaxed. And so it takes time. Yeah, it takes time. And like with any other type of therapy, there's, there's an assessment stage, and then engagement stage, and then your middle stage where you do a lot of the work. And then you work towards either termination or, or when you finish one issue, if there's multiple issues, that maybe something else after that. But yeah, for to get back to. That was a long answer. Back to what we were talking about, was, you know, just ask questions, kind of definitely not just take for, you know, what they're saying that I'm a play therapist, and, you know, I have a therapy dogs,

Dana Jonson 36:24

right. So you're looking for really the training, certification

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 36:29

training and certification, yes,

Dana Jonson 36:31

specifics, that they have specific strategies in which they use the animals with the child that that the goals and objectives are measurable, that you haven't asked me or

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 36:42

definitely ask you about the dog training and what the dog has, has done. You know, there are some dogs who are certified to Pet Partners, and they they've been trained as therapy dogs, so they can be in the session. You also want to ask about liability if they have a special coverage for the dog or, you know, I mean, thought of that, of course, like that. So, you know, when we're in the session, you know, a lot of the liability coverage that you have covers working with the dog in the session, but you want to make sure that they have some type of coverage. So for

Dana Jonson 37:20

training, like specifics coverage for insurance, because if they don't have that, then that probably means it's not a proper therapy, right?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 37:30

Well, not necessarily, but it just means that they don't value the importance of that. You know, the therapy don't still have the training, but the importance of that is important, but

Dana Jonson 37:42

they need to that you would recommend somebody who had who takes that as a priority.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 37:46

Want to take it serious takes it seriously. Yeah, yeah, no.

Dana Jonson 37:51

So are you able to work with clients now? I mean, we're in the middle of the COVID closures right now. COVID-19 closures? Are you able to work with clients now? And if at all, are you able to incorporate the animals? I know you're doing virtual telehealth.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 38:06

So we're doing virtual, it's been a learning curve. But more and more everybody, every session that because I wasn't trained before in telemedicine, right. So we all had to,

Dana Jonson 38:20

is that a separate training? I don't want to get too far into it. But I'm just curious, is there a separate training for that because now that we're all hearing telehealth, this video health that

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 38:28

most insurance companies wanted you to have at least some knowledge of telemedicine and it's more about the confidentiality that comes along with telemedicine. And of course, there was all this talk about if you're licensed in one state, like I'm licensed in Connecticut in New York, so I could practice in both those states. But with telemedicine, if you're you can be sued. I can be sitting here in Connecticut and working with someone in California. Do I have to be licensed in California, you know, so there was all that discussion that's still out there. But right now, during you know, COVID-19 the most insurance companies have waived any of that type of necessity and they're saying that you can practice telemedicine you you had to go on and be able to work off of either I work on doc see me or the professional level of zoom, so that they're HIPAA compliant, you had to use different types of platforms that were HIPAA compliant. And so I didn't necessarily go through the training. So whether I'll continue telemedicine, I probably will. But I'll probably insurance companies will probably say well, you have to take this workshop to be able to continue doing right I

Dana Jonson 39:43

think a lot of them have relaxed those rules for right now. Are those they have right now without compromising the services. They're relaxing them but you're right. I think we'll get back to

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 39:52

it but you'd have to use like I can't right now. I'm not using like FaceTime or something. Sure.

Dana Jonson 39:58

No, yeah, you have to use is a proper platform but but you are able to work with students,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 40:03

I'm working with students and I am using the dogs a little bit. So what we're doing is more, either the dog will come into my lap, and we'll do some type of feeling activity with the dog in my lap. Or I'll make it so that the child can tell me what they want the dog to do. And I'll face the screen so they can see the dog. And I won't move the dog until the child tells me the next thing to do with the dog. So this way that

Dana Jonson 40:32

it's helping them they're still involved, even though they're not involved, and they still have

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 40:37

control, they have control over what the dog is doing, because I'm being their hands, and their mouth, ear, but they're still controlling it. So that's a lot of what happens in a in an animal. a therapy session is the the child feels like they're in control because the dog is listening to them, or they're comforting the dog or they're so if they want me to, I might say to them, what do you think Dakota needs now? And they might say, well, he looks a little sad. Maybe Maybe you should pay them more? Where should I pay them? You know, it's this whole learning curve now, but I'm trying to do it because any type of telemedicine with a child even up through middle school, even the high schoolers, it's really hard to have a full session. Yeah, where computer with a child. So we we've been getting creative with the therapists that work with children.

Dana Jonson 41:34

Or I think everybody's getting creative

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 41:37

and having some type of hands on even if it's not really hands on. It's sure. It's virtually hands on.

Dana Jonson 41:46

Sure. Well, hopefully we will soon be back. Well, I don't know if it'll be soon. But I look forward to when we get back to being able to do animal play therapy in person. Yeah, it'll be wonderful. And I know that kids are home now. And there's a lot of anxiety from everybody. Parents, kid. Yeah, just every one. It's a very stressful time. And there's a huge spike in animal rescues. I think people realize they're home and they want to take care of a puppy. I guess that's what we decided. I don't know if it's the right decision or not, but it's something we're doing to

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 42:20

what can be a good time to potty train. Sure, exactly.

Dana Jonson 42:24

It's a good time to potty train when we're all here in the house. But what kind of tips or tricks or or anything can you give to parents about whether they're looking for animals or if their child is stressed and need some releases? Are there any thoughts that you can give,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 42:39

you know, we'll start with if they're looking for an animal, I guess just look at it through not a narrow lens, you know, really look at it with a broad lens of listing the pros and cons of why you want the pet and and also realize what you know, whether it's a dog or a cat or what it might be that it's for the long haul, right? So we I firmly believe Coronavirus and COVID-19 aren't going to be around forever. And hopefully, in the near future, we'll be able to, you know, relax the social distancing, you know, maybe by the summer time or something, but this puppy or this dog that you've got there, apparently to still be there, when your life gets back to the normal again, when you're not home all the time. So just take into consideration what that's going to look like also and how this pet is going to fit into life when it gets back to some type of normalcy. And

Dana Jonson 43:38

that's so important. And I think also, if you're saying, you know, look at why you're getting them, if you're getting a dog as any form of emotional support, you have to remember that if that dog isn't properly trained, or they could grow up and not be, they might not bond with the child, those things can happen. So if that's your sole reason, you need to think about what what are you going to do if that doesn't come to fruition?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 44:03

Absolutely. And you know, you might be home working from home like I am right now, but, you know, definitely take into consideration, okay, what's it gonna look like when I go back to work? What's that going to look like? And am I going to have the time commitment that necessary? You know, if, if you were very social person, you know, now we're home now and it's nice to have the dog, a new dog with us now, and make sure everyone in the family is okay with it. If it's if you're part of a family.

Dana Jonson 44:32

Yeah, that's a good point, too. There are people in the house who aren't interested that could impact the ability to train the dog or the the ability for the dog to bond.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 44:41

And yeah, absolutely. And, you know, if they're clear that well, we could get a dog but I'm not going to have anything to do with it, then you know, that that this is going to be your responsibility. Whoever loves the dog and yes, but you know, I think it's I think it's great that the adoptions that are happening I do just caution people I've been asked a lot because of what I used to do in veterinary medicine, I was involved in a lot of rescues. But just make sure you want to be the forever home, right?

Dana Jonson 45:09

You want this not a short term experiment. Exactly

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 45:13

that you wanted to be part of your family and to help, you know, make your family

Dana Jonson 45:18

right and, and just because you think you're going back to work doesn't mean that you can't get a puppy to actually have a plan. That's all just got

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 45:24

prepared. And exactly, you just need to have a plan for now. And that was great. Yeah, to have one home, but in just have your backup plan for when this when this ends,

Dana Jonson 45:36

that's when this ends. Yeah. And what about for parents who are looking for tips or tricks to work with their children or themselves? For example? Yeah, what released some of the things xiety? I mean, we're in a global pandemic.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 45:50

Well, yeah, and what you said just now for themselves, I think it's so important for parents to take care of themselves, right? Yes, it's okay to say, Okay, what do I need? Right now, in the moment? What do I need to de stress? Try not to get fixated on the news and what's happening? You know, I think it's normal to want to check in what's going on. But try not to have it consumed so much of your time that then you forget that you have a need, and that you deserve to pull yourself away from it for a little bit and live in the moment. Right.

Dana Jonson 46:29

Yeah. And I think there's a misconception that people believe that in order to be well informed, they need to be listening 24/7. And that isn't the case. And I recommend this as my plug for a streaming channel called newsy. And they are not paying me for this at all. But newsy is a streaming channel, and they genuinely have no opinion, no commentary, they simply deliver the news. And that's it. And I always recommend that to people. Because if you can listen to the news, out all that commentary, you're still getting the information, you're able to form your own opinions. And I've been able to watch the news without, you know, having a heart attack or, you know, a panic attack. And,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 47:08

and a lot of it's repeated over and over again. And if you get into if you're if you're absorbing that as your mantra for the day, it's very hard to keep your anxiety at a manageable level. It's very hard to not feel sad and afraid. Yes. So it's okay. To you want to validate that, yeah, this is what's happening, right? You, you don't want to ignore it. But you also don't have to live it, you can hear it without fully absorbing it and really find the time and a routine a routine is really important, whether it's for you or your child. I think starting with a routine, I'm a big one on putting it down on paper or on the computer, something you can concretely see. Because it it really helps to guide you, especially when you're feeling anxious. It really remind you of Oh, yeah, I can do that right now.

Dana Jonson 48:07

Yeah. And I mean, we've done that to hear me, we find that it helps the kids too, because they need to, it helps us and the kids. Sure, you know, I'm saying the same thing. You are to parents, too. I'm like, cut yourself some slack. Yeah, yeah, even for five minutes a day, you need to be the priority at some point?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 48:25

Absolutely. You need to be kind to yourself, in order for you to have the energy to be a caregiver, you need to first give yourself that really important energy and intentional self care. Yeah, absolutely. You know, kids are going to have worries, they're going to have fears. And you you don't want to shush to those right, you want it to definitely reassure them that that right now their home, that they're safe, kind of teach them how to be mindful, to live in the moment and be able to not get too far ahead with your thoughts. Because then especially with kids, there'll be more what if this happens, and what if that happens, and that really spikes their anxiety level. You want to let them talk about their worries and their fears, but then also have these coping skills and these strategies in place that helps them learn how to relax, right, learn how to be able to take care of themselves. So that being anxious happens, but you can control it when you know something's going to be anxious. So, you know, even little children, you can teach how to take deep breaths and be able to distract their mind.

Dana Jonson 49:37

So give them like a replacement behavior. So yeah,

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 49:41

exactly. And there's there's some really great links online for all types of mindfulness activities with toddlers with school aged children with adolescents and you just build on it. I mean, even with adolescents if you get them some bubbles, All right, let's childish, but they love to play with them, and teach them really how to do deep breathing with it a couple of minutes with the bubbles, and they've distracted their mind number one. And number two, they're really enriching their body with with the oxygen that they need. Because when we're anxious, we hold our breath. And our anxiety just goes up. So it's really great. And, but it's important to stick to routines and help your children stick to a routine, whether it's the virtual school work right now, making their day predictable is important routines and schedules, you know, trying to follow a normal bedtime, trying to stick to what you would have been doing before we had to do the social distancing. It's, it's it's so important. And I think an important thing to this just came up in one of my sessions this week with a child where they said to me, and the parent didn't realize it, but the child kept hearing the news beyond, even though they thought that that child was playing. So the child hearing everything, and the child was getting very anxious, because he really, he really, he was only in like, third or fourth grade, he really didn't understand even what the news was saying. Except he just kept hearing things like the death toll and things right that

Dana Jonson 51:24

so they weren't even getting the full context. There were daddy pieces that are even

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 51:29

very scary. So realize right now that we're all under the same roof, we're in closer quarters than we were, and just be mindful of the environment that's been created in the house.

Dana Jonson 51:42

Sure. Great. Well, thank you so much, Diane, this was so cool. I loved I learned a lot of new stuff, which is great. And I'm really excited to have this episode to help parents understand a little bit more about animal play therapy.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 51:58

Thank you for having me.

Dana Jonson 51:59

How would people get in touch with you? If they want to find you? How do they find you? So Diane is in private practice in Connecticut and also works with school districts? So if you're in Connecticut, and you're looking for an animal play therapist, where would they go to find you?

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 52:12

They can always email me. So you know, Diane, do [email protected] will bring me right to my private practice, always an email is usually the best.

Dana Jonson 52:24

Well, and I will put that information in the show notes. If anyone's got a car and they can't write it down. I will have Diane's contact information in my show notes. So you can just go look those up.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 52:35

Yeah, just give me an email. And I would love to talk to any parents who who would like to speak to me.

Dana Jonson 52:41

Great. Well, thank you so much. Have a great I guess we're actually I don't know when this will publish. But right now we're on a weekend. So have a great weekend.

Diane Dioguardi, LPC, RPT, CAAPT 52:50

Yeah, thank you you to be safe, everyone. You too. Bye.

Dana Jonson 52:55

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications whenever new episodes are available. You can also find this podcast on his website at special ED dot life. You can follow me on Instagram at special ED dot life or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. I want to know what you want to know. So please reach out with your comments and questions. And I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a great day

Episode link: Special Education Legal Fund: Can I do this myS.E.L.F. or will I need help?

Today we talk to Christine Lai whose journey as a parent led her to co-found Special Education Legal Fund (S.E.L.F.). We talk about challenges parents experience while advocating for their child(ren) and why they need special education legal services.

You can find Christine at [email protected] You can find S.E.L.F. at specialedlegalfun.org

Christine Lai, co-founder and Executive Director of Special Education Legal Fund, Inc (S.E.L.F.), an organization providing CT parents in need with the financial support necessary to secure legal assistance in special education for their child or children. In addition, they provide parent training through their Parent Education Program (PEP). Most recently, they have launched a grant program for parents requiring special education legal services related directly to the COVID-19 school closures.

FLASHFORWARD: Christine joins us again later in the series to discuss Barriers to Special Education which you can find here.

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDS families, special education, child, parents, iep meeting, program, fund, attorney, point, talking, provide, district, teacher, speak, connecticut, support, language, spanish, email, advocating

SPEAKERS Dana Jonson, Christine Lai

Dana Jonson 00:03

Hello, and welcome to need to know a Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson. And I'm here to give you the information you need to know, to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your schools obligations, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear or comment on, you can find me and this podcast at special ED dot life. You can also find me on Instagram at special ED dot life. Or you can email me, Dana at special ED dot life. Now the first thing you need to know is that sometimes I have a bit of a potty mouth. So if your environment isn't ready for that, feel free to pop in your earbuds. Okay, let's get started.

01:10

Before we get started, I just wanted to let you know that we had a few technical difficulties in this episode. Now that we are all at home in quarantine, and everyone in my house is on a device and everyone in the world is on the internet. We ran into a few challenges here and there. So a couple of times the audio drops out. And I do apologize for that. But we have a great discussion, and I know you'll enjoy it. Today we are meeting with Christine Lai, who is a co founder and the executive director of the special education legal fund here in Connecticut. And while this organization is Connecticut specific, I think that everything we're going to talk about applies to pretty much anyone ever anywhere. This fund is amazing. It provides funds for families who can't afford it to help advocate for their children. And I would love to see these all over the country in every state, it would be fantastic if this could grow. So Christine, thank you so much for joining me.

Christine Lai 02:11

Thanks, Dana. I'm so excited to be here. Yes,

Dana Jonson 02:14

it's exciting. Exciting times, right? Yeah. So why don't we start by telling me how you got to special ed, legal funds? How did your participation in a start? And then how did it evolve?

Christine Lai 02:28

Absolutely. I have been advocating for my son for the better part of 10 years. And when we first started the process, the thing that I carried away was how difficult it was even for someone who is ideally placed and has resources, it is a really difficult process to navigate. And to get through from start to finish. I think it took about 18 months for my family and I to get from where we were to the place that we needed to be. And that was with constant advocacy, constant emails constantly staying on top constantly showing up at the school randomly and all that stuff.

03:09

And it's I love that you say that because I was a special teacher than an administrator than an attorney. Then I had kids, right. And I've been fighting tooth and nail and I've been going through that same process. It's been hard for me and I've got four kids with IPS at different varying levels. But this is my entire background. And it was hard for me. Absolutely no. So I always think, you know, when I sit at that table by myself, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, how are people that don't have a vast working knowledge of the system getting through able to function?

Christine Lai 03:36

Exactly, yeah, it's deadly. It's a totally different language. And it is so hard to really navigate it, particularly when it's overlaid with all of the emotions that come with the situation that your child is having problems, your child is having problems. And that is why you're sitting there in the chair. And so that are personal. It's so personal. So you can't really navigate it. It's very hard. After the process sort of concluded I don't I don't want to say concluded because obviously, it's never concluded it's always ongoing. First thing included. Step one, I thought to myself, this is such a difficult thing for everyone, how can we make this better? And then I had an experience with my babysitter, where, you know, she speaks Spanish as a primary language. And she came to me and she put her IEP on the table. And you know, I said, Okay, you know, we started to go through it. And you know, I was trying to explain it to her. And after a couple of hours, I wasn't getting anywhere. So I'm like, let me just go with you. And I went with her. And it was really kind of astounding what you witnessed at that point in that, you know, and I'm sure you've had that moment too, or, and so at that point, you know, the wheels kind of started turning, you know, what would this look like? What would it entail? Because you know, they're all are obviously families that are falling through the cracks as we speak, the cracks are wider and deeper, and you know, and getting more so, and they were there before COVID-19. They were there before. They were there before COVID-19 on, but they'll be there afterwards, there'll be deeper and wider at that point. But you know, at that point we, I started thinking about what this would look like, sort of functionally. And we created this fund, my partner or Rika, drinkhall and I, who I have known through years of, you know, advocating for my child with autism and her child with developmental delay, decided that this would be a program this would be an organization that provided resources and information to families in need with children in special education. The first tranche of that is the grants program, our core grants program in which we provide grants for families in need with children in special education, to secure the services of a special education attorney to assist them in the advocacy process.

05:59

So why don't I want to I want to expand on that and tell me why I'm actually pulling it directly from your website. Why do families need legal assistance when their child is in special education? I have so many people when they ask, What do I do? Versus if I'm a lawyer, the great thanks. You know, I always say I'm a lawyer, and I represent someone with disabilities, like, I try to get it in really fast. Yeah. And people are like, that's the thing, you know, and even parents of children with disabilities are like, really? And so yeah, talk a little bit about why that exists, and why that's so important.

Christine Lai 06:31

We live in a society of limited resources. Okay. So you know, when you're in a school setting, there's limited resources for limited population. And a lot of times what happens with families, particularly families are not aware of what is available, or what is their right, they proceed through the system without the supports that they need. And then their child begins to lag or fail or worse. And then at that point, there comes a time when you know, a family is asking for what is, you know, a legal requirement for their child. And the school is either not providing it, or not providing it to its fullest, you know, ability. And there's a disconnect, really, between a parent, a family and the school district over what the appropriate education is for child, the disconnect obviously comes, you know, and listen, I have sympathy for school districts, because of this, the resource allocation issue that I'm talking about, you are an administrator, so you understand it as well. This is a growing population, where the cost to educate that population is growing. So you know, I get it.

Dana Jonson 07:45

Part of that is identification. You know, I mean, we absolutely I hear people say to me all the time, they're like, Wow, we didn't have all these these disabilities I was growing up, I'm like, Yeah, you did, you just.

Christine Lai 07:57

And you just got to pretend it didn't exist, and they didn't have support. And the children were left to muddle their way through to the completion in the system. But really, when I think about it, our families, our families, where a child has had an IEP for 10 years and still can't read our families, our families, where there is significant significant delays, and a lack of available resources or lack of, or willingness to provide available resources to that family to that child, so the child can achieve a free and appropriate public education, you know, as is mandated by law.

Dana Jonson 08:36

Yeah. And I tell my clients a lot that to the point that you just made, which sometimes it's not to working with your child or trying, yeah, there usually isn't. The team, they just don't have the resources, or they're asking for the resources. And they're told not to ask for. Exactly, yeah. So it's, it's yeah, it's it's a big systemic issue. It absolutely.

Christine Lai 08:57

When I went through this personally, and started to look at the problem on a global basis. Obviously, the bigger issue is that this is not a fully funded civil rights mandate, period, right. But I don't have the capability to solve that I am not smart enough to be able to plug that hole. What I can do is I can help some of these family cracks that we talked about. And that was really the premise of the organization was to provide families that got to a point with the school district, with their child with their child's education, where they could not move any further without the assistance of an attorney. Because attorneys are expensive.

Dana Jonson 09:37

They're very expensive and very aware. And that's always the first question I get from parents whenever I speak to parents and I speak to parents groups all the time, because in my world, my dream would be that any parent that has to walk into an IEP meeting knows what they're doing. That was mine is everything. Yeah, exactly. That's, that's that's the gold ring. And the first question they ask is What if you can't afford an attorney? Or Yeah, what can I do without an attorney and it breaks my heart. Sometimes when I say, I know, you're not going to get what you need without an attorney, you know, and there's actuations, where that's just a reality and trying to find a way to make legal services accessible to families. And sometimes it's just not. And it's solely because of finances.

Christine Lai 10:21

Absolutely. I actually took a whole I have this presentation for this predictive educazione SEL, that we're doing. And I just took this whole section out of it. Because what is the point of me talking about due process? You know, you cannot file for due process without an attorney. So there's no point in me going through a slide about timelines and evidence and the hearing officer, because there's no point, you know, and that is

10:49

not a good idea. Yeah, it's not a good idea for parents to do that on their own, even though they can. And I know, that's hard to but I, I tell parents that and I recently spoke with somebody who was saying, Well, I don't care if I win or lose, it's just, you know, I'm taking them to task. And I had to explain to them that you have to understand if you do that, and that hearing officer rules against you, you just set precedent for the rest of us. Yeah. Now we know we have to follow whatever that hearing officer ordered in your case. And so I don't think that's a reason to not go forward. I'll be candid, I'm, I'm of the mindset that we should move forward with, you know, hold school districts accountable any way we can when we can. But let's say you need somebody who knows the system understands the legal system. And as part of it to really make sure you're doing it the right way.

Christine Lai 11:38

Absolutely absolute, because there are implications, there are huge potential consequences. The other thing that I tried to tell parents is that the school district is a co parent with you, if you have child and edgy in special education, you are co parenting your child from the age of three to the age of 21, in some cases, so it's kind of like a divorce, it's like you have to be able to have a collaborative relationship with them. At the end of the day, even if they're like, oh, I can do this. And I can go to the newspaper, and I can do this and that the other thing, I'm like, Yeah, you can. But at the end of the day, what does that leave you with? Your child? Seven, you know, you've got 11 years of dealing with the district.

Dana Jonson 12:29

You know, my dad, I say that all the time. I say, unless you plan does it? Yeah, unless you plan to move, unless you plan seriously and to move to get your child

Christine Lai 12:39

out of you withdrawn from the system entirely, then that's another thing. But otherwise, you have like, blown up this relationship, and it's never going to be the same. It's I choose that option. Like I really do encourage parents to, you know, try as hard as possible to keep that collaborative relationship going. Even though it's it's difficult, and it certainly wasn't something that I was able to do. But in the

Dana Jonson 13:06

end, even when I'm involved, yeah, even when I'm involved, I say parents, you know, let me fight with the attorney. The IEP meeting isn't the time or place, you know, these people working with your fight in the IEP meeting, I will fight in the IEP meeting, but so much of it can be in a different forum, that that's, you know, my goal isn't to destroy anyone's relationships. And I think that, you know, sometimes and I felt this way, too, I have honestly felt this way. I want a pound of flesh. Yeah. Because your child suffered takes, yes. And then it takes a long time to realize and accept that I have to focus on what's right for my child moving forward and put that stuff aside.

Christine Lai 13:41

Exactly. It's really not about you. And it's not a thing, because no one Exactly. You know, no one's winning here. No one's winning, it's about getting the best possible outcome for your child today, and tomorrow, and five years from now and 10 years in, and that's not served by going to the media necessarily. And you know, in speaking about in most cases, in speaking, I mean,

Dana Jonson 14:04

there's a time and place for that there's probably time in places where you have to be careful about that, too. And I do say that to parents, too, I say, Look, I'm all about helping with the press, and when people call on an interview, and that's great, but raising awareness, of course, raising awareness, but let's get what you need for your child. Right. That's my focus. That's where I'm recommending you go. So.

Christine Lai 14:27

So it's been a tremendous journey. You know, we've been in existence for, you know, basically two grant cycles now, two years of giving. And we've been able to provide, you know, over $225,000 in direct support to families in need, who really had nowhere to go, you know, and to secure those educational provements that their children need. So that's been tremendous, you know, kind of along the way, we learned through our outreach to various communities that you know, a lot of the nonprofit Oregon stations and agencies that also serve this population really want to help in this area, but don't have the necessary background. So like I had many conversations with agencies and nonprofits where they would say, this client came to me. And they have an IEP meeting, and I don't know what to do, you know, I don't know what to tell them. So we've been trying to provide with our partnerships with various organizations, some direction and support to those agencies, so they can support their families, when they need that when they have that moment of crisis, or whatever. And that's where, you know, we launched we were able to launch this program predicted edge, Ocasio and SEL assembly, but yeah, it's some it's a great, you know, like I said, you know, this really goes to the this program, for me, goes to the roots of why self was founded, was to support families that you just spoke English as a second language in the special education process, like my housekeeper who had those issues in her, you know, in her own life with her own child. It is a four part curriculum, which was developed by speaking directly with members of the community about what their needs are, what their problems were, what their issues were in advocating for their children in the school system. So we constructed a curriculum based on that we construct a curriculum that focused on sort of real world ways to solve problems in the moment. Obviously, there's background on laws and history, and, you know, and everything like that, but really what these families need, were tips on what to do in the moment, what to do when, when the interpreter doesn't show up for meeting what to do when the general education teacher isn't available, even though they were on the invitation, you know, things like that, what to ask for that you are entitled to have translated documents,

16:58

you have a document handed to you in the middle of a meeting and asked to sign it exact. How do you respond to that and preserve your rights? Because sometimes, you know, parents will say to me, I didn't understand it. So I said, No. And I said, well, great, but now you've relinquished some rights. So right, how do we how do we feel that, you know, how do we educate families and the agencies who are educating families about that? What is the moment about what to do in the moment? So this program, that's so you're working with agencies or families directly,

Christine Lai 17:28

so we work with agencies, you know, basically what we do is we partner with various nonprofit organizations, we launched at building one community and Stanford in December, which was a great partnership for us. And we provide this bilingual education we provide the teaching staff, and the end of the curriculum is a mock IEP meeting, where the families can practice the knowledge that they've learned, hopefully learned during the session. And then there's a short q&a Consult with a special education attorney, which I hope you'll be able to participate in, once we've gone back live with, you know, in person teaching models. And, and so we provide that to the agencies. The agencies are responsible in this partnership for, you know, reaching out to their clientele, because they know that online, this curriculum who needs this service, and we provide the simultaneous interpretation, the curriculum is presented in English and Spanish. And really, it's, it's been a tremendous, it's been really tremendous to, to do this. We've partnered with as I said, building one community, the Boys and Girls Club and Stamford, ableist in Stamford, which we had to shut down kind of midstream because of the social distancing. And in the later spring slash summer, we are going to bring this program to make the road in Bridgeport, as well as Domus and the Stanford public schools, we'll be doing a session as well knock on wood, assuming that, you know, the the health crisis the sides. Um, so we're really excited to continue to expand this, you know, the Fairfield County area, and just continue to bring this knowledge to a community that, you know, that really is lacking.

Dana Jonson 19:10

That's really amazing. I had a client who a pro bono client that I took in, I was halfway not halfway through probably about 15 minutes into the IEP meeting before I realized that my client didn't understand what's going on. And I had been able to speak to them both via email on the phone and in person and get the impression that they fully understood. And what was happening was they understood enough to get me to a place where I thought they understood and I was, you know, we're in the IEP meeting and I can't remember what I think a question was asked and I thought I don't understand why she's nodding her head.

Christine Lai 19:47

Nod your head Yeah, exactly. Hey, I

Dana Jonson 19:48

was I we need to take a break. Something something's going on here. And, and you know, never dawned. Sometimes parents are reluctant because they want to damage the They won't demonstrate that they

Christine Lai 20:01

exactly.

20:05

Yeah, exactly. And that's not what an interpreter does. It's not. And I hate that, you know that parents feel that anyone feels that way. But that's not about, you know, you're not done because you don't know English, you weren't raised with it. We don't expect you to

Christine Lai 20:17

break. And you're not done because you don't understand special education law. Oh, my gosh,

Dana Jonson 20:21

yeah, exactly. Exactly. No, no one's brains were

Christine Lai 20:26

raised. No, it's true. It's, you know, and it goes further than the language because obviously, families are entitled to an interpreter, if English is not their first language, even if they speak a little English. And if they speak enough English to get around, you know, you still are entitled to it. Because it's obviously a totally different legal way of thinking. I also find that what you're saying goes to families not being not being comfortable or being afraid to, you know, to stop the meeting and to ask questions, like, so many of the families that, you know, I've met in this program through preeto, don't understand what the goals are, you know, they're like, I don't know what these are. I don't know what these goals are. I don't know what they mean. Because when we started this program, I thought, this is going to be a special ed 101 curriculum for Spanish people, you know, like that

Dana Jonson 21:17

for Spanish, that there's a 101.

Christine Lai 21:21

There's a one a one. And then I realized that it wasn't that it wasn't that at all, you know, it's a little bit it's obviously it, it encompasses special education law and the beginnings of it. But so much of it is about communicating. And, you know, and understanding

Dana Jonson 21:35

and well, and that's something that you're right, not all, yeah, that's something I talk to parents about all the time, I actually do a whole presentation on that. And it's about communicating with the school district. And one of the huge things that I've seen, and I'm sure you see this, because when somebody's when there's a when English isn't your first language, there's probably a cultural difference as well. And I see the the perspectives, right. So I had a case where the parent is saying, you know, they're never giving me data, I don't understand what's going on. And then I have the teacher say, I don't understand I give her the data every time she asks, you know, and that is creating the riff. And it's only a matter of perspective that is taken or, you know, if I have a parent who feels like how they show their I don't know, if it's gratitude, or what have you to the to the teacher for helping, and the teacher feels like they're overbearing. Yeah, I think there are cultural differences that play into that. And both sides have to be aware, but there are ways to communicate, if you save the teacher, you didn't teach my child to read versus my child has an on grade level, that sends two different messages to the me it's a totally different way of speak, it's a different tone. And if you don't have the language skills, you may be saying that without realizing how aggressive it sounds.

Christine Lai 22:44

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I tell parents all the time, part of the problem. And this is not just for ESL families, but this goes for all of us, is part of the time what happens is we think about the school like we would a person and how do you communicate with a person, you speak to them directly? So then you go to the school, you say the teacher, my child is having problems with this? And the teachers like, Uh huh. And then they go back to their 25 Other kids or whatever. And maybe they write it down, and maybe they don't. So a couple of weeks go by, and nothing has happened with your particular child, you go back to the teacher, you repeat what you said before? And the teacher says, oh, okay, yeah, whatever. And nothing still happens. And at this point, you as a parent, are getting agitated, because you've made your concerns known. So you think to the school several times, and nothing has happened, but to the school, you know, you haven't let them know anything, because you haven't done it in writing. And

Dana Jonson 23:42

writing, it didn't happen.

Christine Lai 23:44

It didn't happen. Exactly. Yes. You know, I was talking to this group and saying, you know, it's kind of like going to the DMV. And if you walk up to the DMV in Norwalk, and you say to the guy that's holding the door, I need to renew my driver's license, are you gonna get a driver's license? No, you have to go and stand in line number one, and then fill out a form and line number two in line number three in line number four. And that's how you get from point A to your renewed driver's license. But that guy at the front door isn't necessarily going to telling him that isn't going to get you anywhere in the process. So that's one of the things that we try to talk about a lot of the time is respecting that process. And understanding that process requires a different type of communication than you might be familiar with. And although it seems obtrusive and weird, to necessary to email your teacher every time that you want to make a request or ask for something or make an observation, that is the appropriate thing to do. And that helps you down the road not only create a record of the communication that happened, but also you know, remind you of what you've done in what you what communications you've had over time. So that's part I mean, you know, so much of this is just talking about the way to come You indicate with the school district in appropriate way, so everybody knows where everyone is. Which is even harder if you don't speak English. Exactly, exactly.

Dana Jonson 25:08

There'll be I can't, I can't imagine how overwhelming it's so hard,

Christine Lai 25:12

you know, I'm like, You need to get an email address, you need to have an email address, you need to use the email address, you need to respond to emails, you know, and that

Dana Jonson 25:22

save emails you

Christine Lai 25:23

need to save, you know, exactly, print them out and put them in your binder, you need to have a binder, you know, so, you know, as we started doing this, you know, I realized there were so many things that were very hands on that we could do like creating this binder, like setting up email accounts, all of these things, I send them emails and have them respond to Me so they can get used to that, you know, that dialogue on the email, they can you get used to checking it. And all of that is part of this sort of new communication process that families have to learn if they're going to be successful in the process. And so that's been part of this, as well. But we've been really grateful to Fairfield County's Community Foundation for their support in this and their additional support in the launch of our COVID-19 Fund, which is going to go live, I think next Monday.

Dana Jonson 26:11

Yeah, so that's brand new.

Christine Lai 26:14

That's brand new. We're super COVID COVID are really excited for that. Because, you know, I mean, as you know, we've noticed that there's a vast disparity in the way different districts are interpreting different things. So everyone seems to every one is brewing a different way. Some districts are having meetings, some districts are not. Some districts are doing therapy on zooms, some are not. It's really

Dana Jonson 26:43

there's a district that is actually I won't say the district, because it's usually difficult district, but they're actually sending people for a couple of kiddos who are very impaired, and they have staff who are willing to go to the house and do their jobs. And it's amazing that the staff is willing to do that, and that they're doing that. And then I have other districts that are saying, Oh, I'm sorry. No, we're not. We're not running any IEPs until this is over. So yes, there's no such thing as special ed until COVID-19 is over and I'm thinking, how on earth did those two people read the same guidance? That was

Christine Lai 27:19

waiting for the state guidance, you know, that says what we're supposed to do? I'm like, you're interpreting this in an entirely different way than the district. It's the next town over, you know, yeah, you see my

Dana Jonson 27:31

air quotes when I say guidance, but yeah.

Christine Lai 27:36

I got that. So it is, it is really astounding. So I mean, given all of the sort of the questions, because obviously, this is a brave new world, for everybody. And I do applaud the teachers and educators, you know, in technology support staff, that have in the space of weeks, taken a model that has existed for hundreds of years, and tried to transition it to an entirely different model. And I do applaud that

Dana Jonson 28:03

this model of education. Yeah, I mean, with the exception of special education, because that's newer, but our school system, the model was developed in like, 1900. Exactly. That's when the model was developed. The bells between classes were to train children to get used to the noises in a factory. That was the purpose of bells. Isn't that purpose of belts? So yeah, the face of education is going to change forever after this. How?

Christine Lai 28:32

I don't know it needed to, but I'm hoping it changes in the right direction. But I agree with you, I'm just blown away by teachers who are home with their own kids and doing this and trying to figure out a new system. And the kids are and I really, everybody is truly doing their best. And I'm saying the parents know, it's hard when you go into this with a dispute, because you are already not happy with your district. And now this is harder, but this is how you Yeah, and now this is harder, but we're genuinely everyone's doing their best. And, you know, it's just it's unprecedented. But anyway, I'm sorry. So go back to your program, where you guys are doing? Yeah, so the Fund, the COVID-19 fund is for families. It differs from our you know, our core fund, because the COVID-19 fund is for families who are experiencing either a delay, or in the in the development, the maintenance, or the delivery of their IEP that relates specifically to the COVID-19 issue. I mean, this fund is not for family that they're looking for an outplacement for their child or they are facing a manifestation hearing because of their child's disability or whatever. It's not for that those are families that should continue to look to our core fund for support. These are for families that they have a an you know, an independent educational evaluation scheduled, but it was cancelled and there's no prospect for it to be rescheduled because the COVID-19 crisis. This is for families that are You know, struggling with the delivery of the services for their very impaired nonverbal child with autism and that child's increasingly difficult behaviors, and how they need to deal with that, you know, that's really what this fund is for, and for really trying to help families, because the language is so vague, because, you know, around circumstances, that it is allowing for the interpretation to be, you know, as we've seen, done in many different ways by many different districts, so

Dana Jonson 30:32

we're really talking about Yeah, and so I was just gonna say, you know, we were talking about that as attorneys and advocates actually, just yesterday, because these terms have not yet been defined. Right, right. unique circumstances and to the maximum extent possible, yes, those terms have not yet been defined. Yeah. So you know, that's adding to the constraint. But you're right there a lot. And there's some students out there and me I have some clients whose kids are doing better. This is actually, in certain circumstances, some of the services are coming across really well through this virtual way. But I have others that can't access it at all. Yeah, and absolutely, no, and that's what your fund is where they

Christine Lai 31:08

can only access it with a paraprofessional of which their mother is not, you know,

Dana Jonson 31:13

right, exactly. I mean, that's what I mean that they that they're not able to access their education through whatever form they're trying to do it. And that's where we need to focus I think, are really, you know, I'm asking parents, if, if you're doing okay, then then be okay with doing okay, right

Christine Lai 31:29

now, that's not okay, for the long run. But for today, being okay, it's okay. Because there are some who aren't. And we have to focus on the ones who aren't and bring the attention to them right now. Right, and trying to give definition to these terms and conditions, and trying to map out what it's going to look like in Connecticut, in Westchester, in New York, you know, all over the country, and you know, and how that's going to play out. But I really appreciate you and giving me the opportunity to talk about this, because you think about it all the time. But as we emerge out of this, you know, obviously, as you said, Education is going to change vastly. I just hope that we are able to, you know, with this fun with the support of others, who are you know, in this fight along with us, that we're able to keep the gap from widening for students and special education as a result of this crisis. That's really my our primary goal with this with this fund at the moment, and that

Dana Jonson 32:25

you guys have been amazing. You guys have really been amazing. I mean, this fund is fantastic. And it's wonderful for parents and you know, who don't have the funds, who can go to the main fund or apply for that, for people who are for parents who are in Connecticut. Thank you know, that program sounds like it's for me. How would they get to it? How do they access both of your funds and your the other program?

Christine Lai 32:51

Right, so the core program, the legal assistance program is open to Connecticut residents and Westchester and residents of Westchester County, so people that are considered think that they might be in an applicant for that program, our families with a child that has a current IEP, they have gross adjusted gross income of below 300% of the federal minimum poverty line. And as I said, our residents of Connecticut or Westchester County, the COVID-19 fund, because it was launched in partnership with Fairfield County's Community Foundation, applies to families in Fairfield County only, it applies to families that also have an IEP also sit below 300% of the federal minimum poverty line, and as I said, are having an issue with the development, delivery or maintenance of their IEP because of the COVID 19 crisis. But all those families who are interested should email me at Christine at spared legal fund.org. And to inquire, and then we have a brief pre screening, after which I will supply an application if it's appropriate.

33:54

And I will have that information in the show notes for this podcast. So if anyone is driving and unable to write that down, feel free to go back to the show notes and all of the contact information will be there. What about your program and I don't speak Spanish and so I'm not going to try and pronounce the name of it. Do it. I won't do it justice. But I barely do. Jeff, for parents. What how would people inquire about that?

Christine Lai 34:17

So projected to educate you on SEL right now is on hold because the in person teaching Oh, right, right, right. I'm sorry. You know, it's not enough. But we are going to put the program online in sort of a sort of a truncated form. We're going to put the Spanish piece online hopefully within the next week or so. And I can provide a link for that when it's when it's available. Our website is www dot sped legal fund.org. And we also have plans to expand that to a version in Haitian Creole and hopefully some other languages as well. We'd like to be judges I think it's six languages in total. I always like when I count them I get comfy. I'm like I'm like Portuguese, Spanish, Polish, Chinese, Haitian Creole and what That's the other one. But that's our that's our sort of long term plan. Those are languages that have need in the state of Connecticut and obviously elsewhere. And so we're hoping to at least in the absence of being able to be in person, in communities with this information provided online in that in that format, so stay tuned for that. We hope to get that up and running pretty soon.

Dana Jonson 35:21

Oh, that's going to be amazing. Well, you know, and my last question is something to this, and they're in another state, and they say, Wow, this is fantastic. And we absolutely have to figure out a way to make that happen here. Would they also reach out to you and email you and say, apps? Can you help me talk to me,

Christine Lai 35:40

I'm happy to have a dialogue with anyone who wants to start this in their own state. I mean, I still, you know, figuring out what I'm doing myself. You know, like, you know, I get calls from, you know, from California, like, how do I do this? And I'm like, You know what, when I figure it out, I'll let you know. I mean, I really am just, you know, flying by the seat of my pants at this point.

Dana Jonson 36:00

And, you know, you are what I refer to as a supermom, and we have super dads too, so no one take that personally. But you know, your parents, you

36:10

are a super parent, exactly. You know, somebody who, who had a child went through this system, and recognize the need for other parents and made something happen. And it's just, it's really amazing, because I don't know if you know this, but a lot of I've been practicing in Connecticut for 15 years. And that entire time, a lot of us been talking about, well, if I win the lottery, or I get free time, we need to create a special ed, what do we call Legal Defense Fund, that's what we're calling it.

Christine Lai 36:39

That's what we started out calling it like, we were a special education, Legal Defense Fund. And the and the, you know, and it was like, you know, it was like special education Legal Assistance Fund. And my husband was like, you know, that's a terrible acronym. Like, he's like, isn't anything, you know, why don't just call it special education, legal fund, that's self that's much better. And much better than SEALAB. Or he'll defer whatever it was before the night.

Dana Jonson 37:09

So funny, because that's what we're thinking to. So then when this appear, we're all like, oh, my gosh, this is so amazing. And it really is wonderful. And you guys are really changing the lives of parents and families. Because the only way we can change the system is from parents, it has to come from the parents. And it's not the only way we have, you know, seek of Connecticut. And there are other organizations like that, who are really working hard in the legislative component, yes, but they can't do their work unless we're doing ours too. And so, you know, parents from the bottom up holding school districts accountable, understanding their rights, I find that so many issues happened, because there's a misunderstanding that would have never turned into something major had someone known what they were doing. Exactly. And now the relationships destroyed the the educational programs on hold, you know, all those components. So for parents to be able to access attorneys for when they came, and even if everyone's doing everything they should be doing, we're still going to have disputes, it's still going to happen. That's just a reality. And so and that, and those disputes, they should not be accessible only to people who have money, period, the end period. Yes, exactly. So I thank you so much for everything you're doing. And thank you so much for joining me and explain to everyone your programs and what's out there. And again, this is Christine Lai. And she is from special education legal funds, which is here in Connecticut, which you can find at sped legal fund.org. And you can find Christine at Christine at fed legal fund.org. And all of that information will be on the show notes so you can go look it up. And Christine, thank you for joining me. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications whenever new episodes are available. You can also find this podcast on his website at special ED dot life. You can follow me on Instagram at special ED dot life or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. I want to know what you want to know. So please reach out with your comments and questions. And I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a great day

Today we are speaking with Randy Ewart, also known as the CT Sped Math Dude (CTSpedMathDude.com), and he is going to tell us what we need to know about math and special education. Randy is a veteran math teacher whose son's diagnosis of Autism helped shape his path into special education. Today, Randy works with students of all ages with disabilities of all kinds. He conducts assessments, provides instruction, and consults for both parents and school districts. Randy's unique understanding of math and special education are what make his creative teaching style so successful for students. In fact, even now, during the COVID-19 closures, he has developed ways to continue to provide services to his students without interruption. When special education and math cross paths, that's when you call the CTSpedMathDude!

Episode link: https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/would-you-like-some-pi-with-that

TRANSCRIPT (not proofread)

SUMMARY KEYWORDSmath, student, work, parents, reading, objective, people, money, talk, special ed teacher, algebra, college, special ed, word, problem, math teacher, google classroom, understand, disability, count

SPEAKERSRandy Ewart, Meredith Masony, Dana Jonson

Dana Jonson 00:03

Hello, and welcome to need to know a Dana Jonson. I'm your host, Dana Jonson. And I'm here to give you the information you need to know to best advocate for your child. I'm a special education attorney in private practice, a former special education teacher and administrator, a current mom to four children with IPS. And I myself have ADHD and dyslexia. So I have approached the world of disability and special education from many angles. And I'll provide straightforward information about your rights and your school's obligations, as well as tips and tricks for working with your school district. My goal is to empower you through your journey. So if there's anything you want to hear or comment on, you can find me and this podcast at special ED dot life. You can also find me on Instagram at special ED dot life. Or you can email me, Dana at special ED dot life.

00:57

Now the first thing you need to know is that sometimes I have a bit of a potty mouth. So if your environment isn't ready for that, feel free to pop in your earbuds. Okay, let's get started. Today, we're talking with Randy York. He's our Connecticut sped math dude, according to his website, and Randy is a math teacher veteran, he has been teaching for over 25 years, also got his master's in special education along the way, and now works with students in a variety of ways. And we're gonna get into all of that. So, Randy, why don't you tell us a little bit about how you ended up in special ed, because you're a math teacher first, right?

Randy Ewart 01:39

That's right. So I went to college to be a high school math teacher and was a high school math teacher for for several years. And then in 2008, my son was diagnosed with autism. And that kind of shifted my focus. And yeah, and then I went on to get a master's in special ed with a certificate in autism, and kind of a unique situation occurred, one of my professors asked me to help create a math intervention course. And that got me going into math for kids with special needs. And that blossom to where that's my main focus now is helping kids with special needs do math,

02:20

that's great, because what I find as the biggest issue is math well, and science and history too. But those are areas that many disabilities impact, but they're not necessarily addressed to the IEP. So one of the things I wanted to talk about first, I have lots of questions for you, because you got lots of good information. But I want to talk about assessments, because I think that's kind of where everything starts, right? So when we have assessments, and I have a student who, you know, isn't doing well, in math, it's very rare. If every student is not doing well, in reading, it's very obvious, we say, oh, let's get a reading specialist. And let's get her in. Now, I say her could be a hemp, but we don't say that when it gets struggling with math necessarily, you know, so where's that disconnect?

Randy Ewart 03:07

Well, it's, it's just that math is for lack of better way of saying it more convoluted. A lot of people don't understand or know math didn't do well in math proudly admit that they did not do well. In math. No one says that about reading, no one says, Well, I'm not good at reading or I can't read. But they'll say I can't do math. So that's one thing. The other is that reading is very linear. So you have to decode the simple words, the more complex words, the phrases, the sentences, and so you can follow that path where math goes into is more of a web. And so it's it's a challenging topic for people to understand. And it's a challenging topic to teach because you can go different directions. So that's why there's not too many of me out there. But there's plenty of people who are reading specialists,

03:55

when I put on my listserv and said blue people like for math evaluations, which I've been managing this listserv for about 10 years. I'm not sure I've ever seen anybody ask, interestingly, but, you know, I said, Gudrun, somebody pointed me to you. And that's when I met you and wanted to talk to you about it. And I was really riveted by everything that you're doing, because there is such a need for it. But I don't I don't see that. You know, I think as as you said it, you don't hear someone say I'm not good at reading just like you said, I'm not good at reading and throws their hands in the air and moves on with their life. It just, you know, someone's bad at reading, we have to jump in there and get something done. But with math, I feel like it goes in a different direction. So I know you do do assessments. So if somebody called you and said, I know there's a problem. I don't know what it is, you will assess the math area. So what's your process for assessing a math student?

Randy Ewart 04:48

Everything's dependent on the individual family and student needs? And I focus on that so it's like what would you need from me? I can help with a full fledged in pennant educational evaluation focusing on math, very formal report. I can do informal reports, I do consultation, direct services with a student, indirect by maybe being a case manager and overseeing some programming. I do whatever the family the student needs. And so the parents come to me and ask for help. That's the first thing I asked is like, well, what what exactly are we looking to do here? Because I will do whatever you need. I'll craft program and a support system that will meet your needs and your students need. You just have to tell me what it is. And that's where

Dana Jonson 05:35

you want to interrupt you. I'm sorry. and clarify for anybody listening is you do get hired by districts to write I mean, you you go into districts, you also work with families privately. I just want to point that out, since we're talking about families that didn't want anyone to think that you don't work with schools, because I know that you do.

Randy Ewart 05:50

Oh, yeah. Okay, so Yeah, good point. That's right. So districts will hire me to be a consultant, I consult for parents as well, families as well, sometimes the districts will have me working directly with a student, one student that I helped now a district has hired me to be the sole provider of math instruction for that student. So I do if it's math

06:10

involved, the closings or is that just so that

Randy Ewart 06:14

was that's been ongoing for a while, it's just a unique situation, a student with multiple disabilities, and twice exceptional student who's got some remarkable ability just needed someone to turn the key, the proper key to unlock it. And we're able to do that I help people, but and families who with special needs, who need help with math, and that's really summarizes what I do. Okay,

06:39

got it. So what is a full evaluation look like if I came to you, and I said, Alright, my daughter needs to be evaluated. I don't know what the issue is. But we need to find out what where she's struggling, I just know that she needs to be evaluated. That's all I know. Where do you start?

Randy Ewart 06:54

Yeah, like, you know, the math is not working. But you don't know. Because, again, it's a big web and confusing the,

07:00

for you thinking of my daughter, specifically, who happens to have a specific learning disability and math. But you know, it's again, people say, well, it doesn't have to be your strength.

Randy Ewart 07:09

So my process is I established what the needs are. So like, there's one that I'm currently working on where the parents want me to assess the student's ability, and then also strategies that would work for that particular student. Sometimes people want me to evaluate the programming that they're provided, some people want me to evaluate and look at a path forward as far as long term or help the student get ready for college. And so my process is to find out what it is we're trying to achieve. And then I gather information. And I get the information from three categories of sources. One is I interview or survey parents and caregivers, members of the team. Second, I look at record student records provided by the school and the parents. And the third is do direct observation. And that's a boilerplate approach. And we triangulate. So the idea is you look at how two or three stools that are legs of that stool lead you to some some themes or some observations about what's going on. And for my direct observation, I start off with two assessments. One is I assess the mastery of content that the student has. And then the second is I assess, I test run some instructional strategies, and see what works for that particular student, then that's my approach.

08:32

So when you're testing for content, because I'm thinking of when we do an assessment, again, using the reading example, because I think it's an easy one to compare. So when we're, you know, we're teaching reading, we're saying, Okay, well, let's figure out is it that they can't read the words? Is it that they don't understand the language? Is it that they can't summarize it? You know, there are different components within it that that you're looking for? And with math, you know, just the content? Are you looking at, say, like, just their grade level content? Or is there? Are you going back to like, original facts? So for example, my daughter, we were told, like, Oh, you just need to practice her math facts with her. You just have to do that all the time, because that will solve the problem, which in case you're wondering, it did not. But, you know, I'm just curious, like, do you go down to like, do they know all their math facts? Because is it really necessary to know all your math facts in order to do the future math?

Randy Ewart 09:28

Okay, so that's, there's a couple of great points that you brought up that I'll once go. That's right. So that's what I do. So I start, first of all with the current math that the students working on, so if it's an eighth grader, but they're working on third grade math, then I'm going to start with the third grade math, I might try some second grade content, even first grade, fourth grade, and then I sometimes I'll even test out some higher level math. I've had students working at supposedly working at a fourth grade level. And I find that they're able to engage some algebra even at that point. So I'd narrow the focus and primarily work at where their grade level is, as far as the content, the IEP, but then I branch out to test out and I go where the their ability leads me their performance leads me. So if they show some ability to do higher level math, I explore that. If they struggle with third grade, I'm going to go backwards and look at second and first grade and see if I can find out where where the gap is. Now, the question about some basic math skills, that's a common mistake or assumption that a student must have basic skills in order to do higher level math, the twice exceptional student that I'm helping, she even now has some trouble with some basic math skills. But I have her doing algebra, and I have her doing some higher level algebra, and she processes it very well. And it just it remarkable, but then she'll, she may have to go back and count on her fingers or use the calculator for like six times eight, but then she can understand the concept of Six times eight, there's just a deficit there for her disorder as far as how she processes, you know, maybe in the working memory. So the

Meredith Masony 11:15

when you understand Six times eight, but she can't tell me six times eight, what how do you mean that when you say that, what, what does that mean? Because some people would say, you can't if she's not reading the flashcards and getting them, right, right, then she doesn't know it. But you're saying, Oh, they could know it,

Randy Ewart 11:32

right? Someone can show me how you're supposed to ice skate. And like, I can say, Okay, I know that you're supposed to maybe turn one blade a little bit and push off and bend your knee or whatever. That doesn't mean I can do it. But I know the process for doing I know what it means and the the underlying concepts like she can allergy can for six times he or she can draw six groups of eight each. So she understands. Or she might add on, she might add eight plus eight plus eight plus eight and keep doing that six times. So she understands that that's what multiplication means. But she doesn't have the capacity and her working memory perhaps to be able to process that. And that's what I that's what I mean by that.

12:15

Right? So when you're talking about fluency, then that would would that be a fluency issue? I guess, I this whole, as you can tell, I spend a lot of time with math facts. Trying to kind of understand, you know, when a child understands the concepts of it like that, you know, how, what Six times eight is that doesn't have, whether it's her working memory, the capacity to process and give you that number, or just follow the flashcard? Is that something you can get a student to? Or do you realize they understand the concept, so maybe you go a different route?

Randy Ewart 12:52

That's right, it depends on the need, if we're talking about an eighth grade or ninth grader, and they want to go to college, and they need to get through the math content. If they understand the concept, and they can make sense of the problem. Let's do an analogy. You may have some students that can read and comprehend beautifully in a deep level, but they may make spelling errors because you have some disabilities where that's common. And so then you go, Okay, do we really want to put a lot of our eggs in that basket and try to flush out spelling? Or can they just continue to process at a high level, and then they type their work and do word prediction, or do spellcheck and you have to make I'm not saying that it should always be there's a universal answer. But I'm saying there, it's a much deeper problem than simply basic skills are a necessity to move on. And I'll give you a quick example. Another student, I worked with his freshman year, he spent almost the entire year working on basic math skills. Well, he'd been working on that for years. And he was stuck in an endless loop with that. And what I did when I when they brought me in to help him is I did some algebra with him. And he had a remarkable ability to handle the algebra. So he didn't have these basic skills that they're pushing on him was the way I would put it, but he could move on from that and that's what we did. And then he was able to get through high school and go through two years of algebra and, and move on to a community college. So it's nice if they had the basic skills, and it could be useful in some regards, but it's not like it's not an absolute necessity. Just like we know people that can't spell but they can comprehend someone at eye level.

14:33

I believe it's I believe spelling's genetic. I do. My my mother, who's probably one of the most well read and educated people can't sell for anything. My father dropped out of high school at the age of 15 and never misspelled a word. So I have issues.

Randy Ewart 14:50

That's a great analogy. Yeah,

14:52

yeah. So sometimes you just have, there's just something there. You were talking a little bit about preparing kids for that student putting actually preparing for them for going on to whatever College community college or what have you. But not every kid needs that level of math, right? So you know how you decide when, for example, again, going back to my daughter as a learner who has a math disability, and I've always said, Let's get her through algebra, and we'll be good, right? I'm not going to stress over higher level math, because she doesn't like it. It's not, it's not going to be an issue for her. But she does need math. And if she goes to college, she will need that correct. But for some students, you know, you get to a point where you're like, Does this make sense for them to learn algebra? Or should we be going in a different direction? Right? So how do you make that determination? What we call, I would call functional math, right? So learning how to tell time and learning how to deal with money and money concepts and stuff like that, versus algebra, calculus, trigonometry, that level,

Randy Ewart 15:57

right? Yeah, so there's, I would say there's two parts to this. First, there's the the outcomes. So let's start with the outcomes, and then talk about when you should make a decision towards which outcome to pursue. So the three outcomes that I come up with, that I use when I talk to families are one, there's the four year college, there's two, there's just life skills, functional skills, where there's not going to be any type of college or post secondary type of training or anything that involves academics. And three, there's the in between where you have maybe it's a two year college, or it's vocational school, or a professional training to be, you know, plumber, or something like that. And, and there's some math that's specific to that particular area. So those are the three groups, if a student is going to go to college, they have to check the boxes of all those classes that they need to take, do the Common Core, or do the curriculum and go through the general ed classes or the general ed curriculum. And then there will be some sort of math requirement from almost all majors when you go to a four year school, so you have to get ready for that, then there's math, maybe it's another some of the other non math subjects. On the other end, if it's life skills, then you want to focus on you don't need to do any the general curriculum, the or the what I call the math, the math, you need to focus on applying math. For example, if you buy a pizza, you have to pay for the pizza, and you have to pay for the toppings. You don't need to talk about an equation to do that. Whereas if you're in going to a four year college, you may have a problem like that on a test. But you need to come up with an equation and have x and y and all this stuff and slope and intercept. And so it's very mathy, whereas you as opposed to just applying it. And then if it's in between, you may have to dabble in check some boxes, but not as much in the in between. Maybe you need to all of your math is geared towards passing one math class in a community college to get an Associate's degree. And maybe that's all you need to do, which has been the case for me with a couple of students that I've helped. Now, how do you make that determination?

18:02

That's the tough part. And that's where I find a lot of disputes between parents and schools. Yeah, directions, because I've had it to where the schools think, no, it has to be functional. We're not going on to the math, the math is, right. And the parents are saying no, they they need the math, the math, because we think they're going either to some some other place where they need the math, the math, and the reverse, where the pay, I had situations where the school is like, no, they have to take algebra, and the parents are saying that's never going to be a part of their life. So So when do we make that decision? And how?

Randy Ewart 18:35

Okay, so actually, let me go back to the math, the math part of it a little bit more. There's an assumption that the general curriculum is going to provide students the ability to do the applied applicable functional skills, math. And that's not the case in a lot of times, because again, like the example I use before buying a pizza, you have the pizza cost, plus the toppings cost two toppings, three toppings, whatever, the learning how to write into an equation for that doesn't really gear you prepare you to go into the pizza place and order of pizza, because you're not going to create an equation while you're standing there in line to order your pizza. So you're really looking at the math, the math to check some boxes, and then to apply that maybe some higher level work, possibly, but it's not necessarily, it's unlikely to be able to carry over into some functional skills. Now to make that decision, there's two things that I want parents to think about one, the sooner you think about it, then the sooner you can start to make sense of where you're going with all of this work that you're doing with a special ed and all the information that you're getting. You don't have to sign a contract and lock them in for the next six years and then for the rest of their life saying, well, they have to go to college now because we're doing this college track. But it gives you a sense Standard IQ is so that when you see progress, you can measure the progress not in terms of, did they get better, but are they moving in a direction, particular post secondary goal. Now, along those lines, the other thing to think about is, the decision has to be made based on what doesn't have to be. But a big consideration for the decision is how far behind is the student, if a student's in eighth grade, and they're doing third grade, fourth grade level math, that means they have in eighth grade, they have four, four and a half years left of special ed support and four and a half years of public education, they, then they're seniors, and then they're going to graduate and move on. Well, how are they going to move get caught up? How are they they get from third or fourth grade math to 12th grade math, in just four years, there has to be a plan for that. If at that point, if a parents, the parents are thinking there's no way they're going to catch up, they're so far behind, and they just don't get this, then that could be an indicator then that maybe the four year school is not what we want is going to work for our student. Or perhaps they need extra time, whether the school district provides it or the parents have to find private support. And maybe they they're going to delay going to a college for a few years. But then that gets really tricky. But thinking in terms of the outcome, at least it shapes the way that you for looking at all this. Now, if a student is two years behind, and they're in eighth grade, then perhaps they can catch up. But then you need to talk to the school the team and say, Hey, what's the plan to catch my student up so that when they're a senior, they're now doing senior level math, and they are ready to move on to college. And so those are some things to think about. I'll say I strongly recommend that parents start thinking about this in elementary school, because especially for the more severely disabled kids, the analogy I use are Domino's, there's a lot of Domino's, they're standing up ready to be knocked over. And you're not going over the first couple of dominoes in elementary school, and then those dominoes is going to keep falling. So you want to be aware of that because you're impacting their future while they're in elementary school.

22:19

That's a good point. And that is something that we that we ran into a lot and thinking about, I mean, the law says what at 16, we have to talk about transition. And you know, transition is post high school. And I always say to parents, we need to look at that way earlier. And you know, there are some issues that really need to be addressed. While they might be adult issues they need to be addressed at a young age. So I mean, that applies to everything. But you're right. I mean, with math, that's something. Now when you're talking about the functional math, I also feel like if there's any kind of dispute, I'm not clear on why they can't work on both, right? So can we have the student working on functional math over here for the life skill component? Well, and also sorry, I'm gonna get get off on a tangent. But when you're talking about for them to buy the pizza, I was also thinking a lot of my students might be going to be working at pizza place, right? So it's not just about being able to count your money, but it's also about being able to, to make change or to if you're at that level, if you're at that. So that brings me to money skills. And that was going to be my question, which is, you know, I also hear this a lot where school districts are saying, well, we're working on this money goal. And the parents say to me, they know money, they've been able to show me dimes and quarters and dollar bills, since they were little like they know that I don't understand why the school is still working on it. Why might the school still be working on

Randy Ewart 23:45

it? I think there's different reasons why instead of posing why they're they're still doing it, what I would say is, I would go back to your previous point about assessment, have an assessment. I mean, if if they're going to have IEP objectives, than they should have present levels of performance, well have them do present levels of performance with money. And then I'll unpack that in a moment when we talk, talk about objectives, but the let's see what they can do. I mean, let's make informed decisions. And let's see how they can do with grade level math how they can do with maybe a couple years behind your lower, you know, if they're in eighth grade, let's see how they do in sixth grade math, perhaps less how they do with money skills. That's how they do maybe with a little bit of algebra, it's like a doctor, doctor's office visit when you go there. What's the first thing they do? They take a lot of your vitals they get information to help make informed decisions. Well, we should be doing the same thing. Now when it comes to assessment, you talked about the skills and money skills in that setting. That's an important piece. Part of the assessment should be how does the student generalize the skills? What do you say at home as a parent? Are they like I had a recent family Telling me that their student can't divide. But at school, they're saying they can divide just the student can divide just fine. And maybe they can in that setting. This ties into post secondary life, what the students doing at home or outside of that clinical setting with their special ed teacher or their their the math class setting with a supports, what they do outside of that environment is a sneak preview of what's going to happen when they leave special ed services and Ida and their exited. You're getting an idea of what life is like without the support. And if they can't do the math without the support, then how are they going to do it now? Then? How are they going to do it when they exit out? They're still not going to be able to do it. So part of the assessment should be can they generalize? Can they do the work without supports? Unless it's a support, you know, that they can have when they're in college, for example? Now, one other piece that oh, this is a bit of a tangent? I'm good at though. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that's a matter of also, when you talked about in the buying a pizza, one of the things that I've seen happen with some students that I've worked with, is the money skills in the setting of a supermarket become very challenging, because now you have extra task demands put upon you think of your computer where you open up several apps, you're playing a video and you got some files open, and your computer starts to buffer. Our students can start to buffer when they're in a setting where they have to navigate the cashier or the cash register stand the pulling food out of the carts, pull out their money, standby accord. This right?

26:47

Visual bright days, like when you can fit in a space that you know, yeah, there's a tough, yeah, that's really I'm glad you said that. Because it is so easy for someone to say God, you can't give change there, it's hard to recognize all the pieces that a student has to address. We take that for granted, right we don't think of a woman in the grocery store is a big deal. It doesn't take a lot. But it does. You have to recognize your place in line recognize the person but front of you figure out how to be social with the person talking to you figure out how you're going to get your money out how you're going to bag your groceries, how you know all of those things happen at once. And if you're somebody who needs extra time for each one of those pieces, that's challenging,

Randy Ewart 27:32

right? So so the assessment then should not be how well can they perform in that clinical setting. It is ultimately how well do they take those skills and apply them in the setting that they'll be seeing when they're exited out of special ed.

27:48

And I do want to comment to the transition piece because we're talking about post high school. So for purposes just of this podcast, and anybody listening is that children with special needs are entitled to services until they are exited from special education graduate from high school or the year they turned 21. So when children finish high school, if their next post secondary is, say a transition program that falls under the high school, but they don't go in the high school. So I just wanted to clarify that you might finish your senior year, but you may still have services that are special education that go beyond your senior year. So I just want to clarify that for the audience. So that was always gonna say sorry, were you saying something else? Or no,

Randy Ewart 28:33

no, no. I'll piggyback on that for a moment. One of the suggestions I often have is for students who show some ability to do college level work. But there's other factors at play, whether it's anxiety, or whether it's study skills, or one of the things that I always I recommend is, if it's possible is either have the student tried to take a class at a community college so that you get some information while they're still under Ida, even if it meant if the parent had means to pay for it themselves, but still get that support. Or even better yet if the district pays, but the other, the other. The other thing that you can do is Yeah, that's right. And you call Dana. The other thing that you can do is try to replicate a college setting as much as possible while you're still in high school. So that would be I told one, I told one family that I was helping. I said her senior year, take away any accommodations that she's not going to have in college and I'm going to talk about that in a second to the difference between the accommodations and see how she does because that's you want to find out her needs and develop the her need areas before she leaves Special Ed because a lot of parents and students find out after they get to college. Oh, I'm not prepared for this. Well now services They're gone on it. That's why

30:02

we call it the college cliff, right? Because, yeah, so supported in that environment. And for children who do qualify for transition program, they often get that transitional piece that you're talking about, but a lot of kids don't. And they get to college. And then there are none of these supports. And that's when they they fall down, but you touched on accommodations. And you know, in college, you are entitled to accommodations, if you have a diagnosis, and if you have the right paperwork, and if you are getting those accommodations before. So there's a lot of components to that. So it's not automatic,

Randy Ewart 30:38

even if you do check those boxes, the accommodations provide access, they don't provide any specialized instruction, they don't provide modifications for grades or whatever it basically it's going to be, it's going to be more time, note taker, different setting, go take your test somewhere else. And it's not going to be go take your test somewhere else where they're going to help you a little bit, it's going to be very rigid and strict, where you go there and no one's going to talk to you and you're not going to, they're going to keep an eagle eye on you make sure that you're doing the test independently. And I see when I'm teaching at colleges. What I see is students showing up there and they're ill prepared. I even had a couple students one, she came up to me for the final and she said, this is a college. And she said, I get to use my notes on the final it's in my IEP. And I had to I had explained to her, I said no, you don't have special ed services anymore. You don't get to use your notes. And I had another guy he he was held accountable for something. And he this is in college, and he looked at me and he goes, but I'm I'm in special ed and I'm like no, we do have special ed

31:50

so only exists in the public school. That's the only place special ed is in the public school. Yeah,

Randy Ewart 31:55

so So the so going back to what you see, with your students, when they don't have accommodations, gives you a sneak preview for what it'd be like when they're in college, if they're going to college or anywhere else, take your student to the grocery store and have them find an item and pick out the appropriate item. And they have to compare prices and its quality and the expiration dates and know where to find it and then navigate the aisles and find the cash register that's open and wait in line and don't stand too close to the person in front of you. And then to count out the money and pay the correct amount of money and know what change you're getting. And to be socially competent as you're doing all that find out how they can do that. Now, don't you know why you get still gets the support?

32:42

Well, and that's an interesting point, too, because so my eldest who two years ago, so she would have been 16. At the time, we went to we took a trip to Europe. And we were in France. So everywhere we went there, these crepe stands, right, and everyone had to have a crepe every time we saw one. So I give her money and say bring it back to change, bring back the change. And she did. And at one point were somewhere else. And she came up and I said well, how much do you need. And she looked at me puzzled, and was like, I should mention she's on the spectrum. But she was very puzzled and wasn't quite clear on what I was asking of her. And I said, I need to know how much she's like, I don't know, 20 Euro. And I thought she's been buying them all along. And I start I started watching her and I realized now she's 16 years old, and she's on grade level math. And actually math is a strength for her. So you wouldn't think to give her math goals and objectives, right? Because she's good at math. But standing in that situation, what I started to realize was she had no concept of of money, right? So she math, but she didn't have a concept of a crepe cost $3 and not 20. Or that if I give her give them a 20 I'm gonna get a lot of change back versus just a little bit. And that that concept she absolutely did not have. And that was fascinating to learn at 16.

Randy Ewart 34:04

Yeah, that speaks to what I had mentioned previously about the math, the math versus the Applied Math, the functional, that's great. So what I find that happens too, is math oftentimes is taught as symbol manipulation or just skill, versus understanding the concepts and using math to make sense of the world around us. And so if we're going through courses where you're just checking boxes, and you're just completing problems, so you get credit, you're missing the application by quite a bit.

34:38

Right? And that's what I thought was really fascinating because she knows what money is. She knows she can identify money, she can ask me for 20 and she knows if I gave her 20 or something different, right? But I we didn't know that she didn't understand that basic concept. I guess. When we talk about disabilities and math. It's not just math disabilities. You Right, so you can have a disability that technically doesn't have doesn't have a math issue, but it's going to impact your math. So say ADHD, for example, how would that impact a student's ability to do math?

Randy Ewart 35:13

Right? So the page for the IEP where you have your math area? Yep, they're looking at what impacts is the is the math ability impacted by the disability. And it doesn't say well, is the impact due to a math specific disability, it just says is the math impacted. And then for ADHD, we're talking about executive functioning disorder, in essence, and that includes problem solving, well, there's plenty of problem solving in math. So you're going to have, that's going to be an impact. And this, then if that's listed on page four, under the area of math, then as soon as that's listed under page four, for the math, there has to be an IEP objective written to address that. Same thing with reading the, you know, if a student has is impacted by their disability in terms of their reading, that affects math, too, because you have in elementary school, you have story problems. And in throughout math, you have word problems. And math itself, especially algebra is an language. It's a unique type of language that involves numbers and symbols, as well as just your letters and variables. And the word problems requires some very straightforward comprehension like you have in reading class. And then all of that can be impacted by speech language impairments, or by reading. because math is the math language is being used to make sense of concepts, a lot of them are math concepts. And that's what comprehension is. And reading is trying to make sense or communicate ideas and concepts using symbols and letters or symbols. So the words are abstract representations of these concepts and ideas. So if if the student has trouble with reading chair, then is very likely that they're going to have trouble with math in terms of word problems, and there's going to be tons of word problems, especially like on the LSAT, or in one first third through eighth grade, where you have the aspect testing, certainly going to be a lot of reading involved. If you have trouble reading, how are you going to do the problems?

37:32

Right? Well, and also because a lot of times the answer I get at the IEP table is, well, we're teaching reading over here and reading. So that will carry over to the math area. And we don't have to worry about that. But maybe we'll put in someone reads the problems to them on their exam, say if that's a problem, but you know, we're really teaching reading over here, but teaching reading for the purposes of reading and the areas we expect and reading, which is whether it's letter identification, or sounding out words, or whether it's the comprehension or whether it's the ability to summarize you, there's so many different areas that and I presume if you're reading for a math problem, you're reading it differently, right? Because every word matters, so you're not trying to just summarize it. So to me that that sounds like an area that would need its own objective, if readings an issue

Randy Ewart 38:25

right you're you're when you're doing a math problem, you can't just give a summary and say, Well, you know, you can't say, well, Billy, the pizza costs $10. And it's $2 per topping and, and you have a $25 gift card, and how many toppings can you afford to buy? You don't just give a summary and go Well, the guy is buying pizza and wants to know how many to get, you actually have to you apply the reading and to solve some problems. But the other thing I'll mention about the reading is if you said well, they'll say we're covering reading over there and reading class, and then I would say is Okay, so two things, are they doing math problems? Are they reading math problems and reading class, highly unlikely. And then give us some evidence, put this in the present levels of performance, okay, give them some word problems in math to read, and let's see how they do. And if they're processing that just fine, then you it's not an impact. If they have trouble with it, then it's an impact, then their math education is being impacted, that area is being impacted, it needs to have some objectives for that particular area. So I would frame it that way. Put the put the onus on them say, Do you have evidence that the student can do math word problems? If you don't, then their math is being impacted? Therefore, there needs to be a math objective.

39:43

Another issue? Yeah, and another issue I see with that is that most people writing the math objectives aren't math teachers, right. There are special ed teachers. If the child has reading disability, we have a reading specialist at the table. Sometimes the regular ed teacher He's been asked to join as a math teacher, but rarely. And so how do we write the objectives? Yeah, I mean, where do we go for objectives? How do we know we're hitting the right mark?

Randy Ewart 40:09

Okay, so there's two parts to that that I'll address. One is they have a team there. And so just like the special ed teacher is not going to write occupational therapy, ot objectives, they're not going to write speech objectives, the SLP is going to write speech objectives. So have them involved the math teacher, I have special ed teachers who asked me to write out some proposed math objectives. Now I happen to be trained in both areas. I'm bilingual, so I speak Special Ed and math, but you can have involves making a collaboration put the onus on them to collaborate and come up with the objectives. The second piece is, what I recommend for assessments is that parents, ask the case manager, ask the team, and this is for math. So ask the case manager for examples of mastery for the objective, say, what's an example problem that goes that you would use to assess mastery for this objective? And then show me what the answer would look like. Now that'll do two things. One, it allows parents to be full participants of the team, because now they have a standard against which they can evaluate the data. But second, what it does is, it will help hold the special ed teacher accountable. And I don't mean that in a critical way, I mean that in just a common sensical way. And this is what I mean by this. A lot of times the IEP objectives for math are not written in a way that's a measurable, for example, count money, like the student will count money appropriately. Well, count money could mean counting dollar bills, it can mean counting just ones it can mean counting fives and ones, it could mean counting pennies and dimes. And so you need to know what exactly we mean by that. So instead of saying count money, it could be the student will count out the total value of a given set of nickels, dimes and pennies. And now you know exactly what you're looking for

42:16

adding addition to it, that, so counting money to me, I'm thinking they're able to, you know, go I have five dimes, or I have, that's how I would interpret it, right. They're counting the money they can identify. But I could be completely wrong. I always look at the specificity of the goals and objectives. But what what I was touching on from what you just said was, I see that schools will identify, you know, the parent might be thinking it's identify like, what is a quarter? What is a quarter cost? Or what does it stand for? How much is it worth that component? Or are we just saying it's a quarter 25 cents? Because to me, any student can memorize that, right? That that's a quarter is 25 cents? But if they don't understand where that fits within the money system? Do you know what I mean? Like, I think thing, so like, sometimes we're asking kids to add, I think I'm being very confusing. I think I'm crossing over. When we're saying count money. If we are measuring that counting money by giving them a math problem that involves addition, or subtraction or multiplication, that's not really identifying that objective, is it?

Randy Ewart 43:24

No, well, it will, if it's just count money, nothing is going to be specific to that objective. Because that objective is unmeasurable because count money is just what does that mean? It can be? Measurable, right. I think to your point, though, there's different ways you address money addition, is not counting money, because then actually, we don't add in our brains we count on so when you're counting out dimes, we you know, we go 25, get a quarter 25. And then you count out some dimes 3545 55, you don't go 25 Oh, and this is 10 plus 10, plus 10 is 30, and 25. And 10. We count on, but to your point, identifying money, think of it as a task analysis, like showing my son how to get dressed. Well, getting dressed involves a lot of smaller tasks. And that's that's called no task analysis, when you break it down like that. So counting out money involves a lot of tasks, one of them is identifying the currency and then also identifying the value and then being able to count and so the way that the parents can get at all that is asked for an example say, Show give me an example problem that I can use to evaluate mastery and show me the answer. What would it look like? And then what that does, that clears up that whole problem there? Because if they say the objective is count money, and then they say, okay, here, count this, you're gonna be like, Well, what does that mean? Count this that allows you to see that there's a need for more specificity, specificity. To be more specific, let's try that. I need an SLP to help me here. So what that does is it does it. So summarize that does two things. It holds the special ed teacher accountable for writing an effective objective. And it also for data collection, because this allows you to have some, some meaningful data. And then the other thing that is you now you get a good idea of what it is they're trying to do when it's not just counting money, you something more specific to that,

45:30

right. Yeah. And I always say that, if any objective can be interpreted more than one way, it's not specific. So if what you're thinking as a parent isn't what the school is telling you, then it's possible that that objective is wrong. You know, if there are more than one ways to interpret it, don't just assume it's because you didn't understand. It could be that it's not specific enough,

Randy Ewart 45:54

you just avoid all that by asking for those examples. And then everyone's on the same page, you don't get caught up in a subjective discussion about opinions. Now, it's more concrete, it's more objective, and it's much harder for someone then to go off in a different direction, when it's very clear what it is that everyone should see for that particular objective.

46:14

Right. And I find that math isn't as easy to fake as reading. Sometimes I think, you know, students who can read enough or who can predict well can go a long time without people noticing that they have significant reading disabilities. But I don't think those kinds of strategies help in math. Yeah, I mean, like for kids who can guess the word? I don't see a lot of kids able to guess the formula?

Randy Ewart 46:38

Right? Well, you know, I think what happens is, a lot of times they get extra support they get, they get helped along. And I think that happens in general is I think, a lot of times teachers want to be helpful, they want their students to feel good and have success. And I think sometimes we lose sight of the idea that well, there's some long term ramifications for helping them in the short run, but helping them too much that is, so ultimately, if you have good objectives, like I mentioned, and you get good data that can kind of take care of all those issues.

47:08

Okay, great. We are amidst the COVID 19 closures of 2020. And a lot of parents are home, teaching maths that their kids now and I know I got a note home when my son was in third grade asking me to please not help him with it anymore, because apparently, I was doing more damage than good. So now we've got parents who don't truly don't understand the new math, we always talk about that like a joke. But it's true. We weren't taught it. We didn't learn that way. So it's hard for us to replicate it. And now, how are parents who aren't able to do the math themselves the right way? I think we're facing a lot of panic in, for example, in the homeschooling world, most kids don't even start math till that middle school, because the parents don't want to do it. So they just push it off till they have to. So you know, in this crazy unprecedented time, What recommendations would you have for parents who are struggling to help their kids with math,

Randy Ewart 48:05

I have a kind of an informal list. First thing parents can do is compare the math work with the AP math objectives. Now, that may not be easy, because maybe the objectives are not written well. You can ask you can you know it's not you can go ahead and email now and ask and say, can you send me an example of what this objective should look like? Like it? What's an example problem? And how would you work it out? So compare, make sure that the math that they're working on is not just busy math, just so they're doing something, but it's tied in directly to the IP objective. And what you may find is it's not addressing the math objective, but it's addressing the general curriculum, then now you got an issue, because that means the IP objective is not aligned with the general curriculum. So that can open up a bit of a can of worms. Second, be aware of the student's frustration level you so you can break up the work if necessary. So some things to think about is, is the format itself challenging? If So break it up into smaller pieces, so there's less frustration going on for an extended amount of time. Second, is the math is the work kind of convoluted, is it confusing. It's not that it's online, but it's just that the problem itself are confusing, whether it's just because it's math, or because it was just presented in a challenging way. Third, if it's boring, you none of us want to do boring stuff for an extended period of time. So you could break that up as well. The third thing would be focus on performance and not just completion. And what I mean by that is, just because the student completes the work doesn't mean they got anything from it doesn't mean that it was useful. So and what can happen is on some online work, some support can be provided. That's one of the advantages but also it's a two edged sword where If with technology is sometimes they guide you through how to do the work, but then you're not completing the work on your own. So how much of that do you really know. So what you can do is you can give what I say is give like a little pop quiz, take a problem from the work that was assigned, right, copy a problem on a sheet of paper, and have the student do it independently, and then maybe compare it to the work that you saw online or have someone else that you know, that can help with it, and assess to see if your students getting it, maybe do like a pop quiz each day, just like one problem, maybe a couple problems. And then fourth, I'm going to have some of this information posted on my blog that you said you would have available

50:40

to their contact information in the show notes. So I'll say it again. Now it's Connecticut, spared SPE D, math dude.com. There will also be notes so people can go look that up if they need.

Randy Ewart 50:54

I'll have some recommendations about sites to go to, and some handouts, and then you can contact me through the blog, happy to entertain contact. And then you mentioned the new math, I don't think there's a really a good answer for that. What I would say is reach out to the teacher, whether it's the math teacher or the special ed teacher or both and say, hey, you know, my son's having trouble with this particular type of work? Can you give me an example of what it looks like? Can you work out the steps or whatever, and, and then if they there's a reason that they're teaching it, the way they're teaching it, and people get upset, and they go, Well, that's not how I learned it. Well, in the old day, we had, in the old days, we had a lot of people that couldn't do math, they went through the old school math instruction, and they didn't learn the math. So just because some of us did doesn't mean then that all of our kids should be doing that. There's a lot of smart people came up with some ideas about how to teach it more conceptually. So it is what it is.

51:54

The problem is I was trying to when he was asking me questions, I was trying to show him the way that I learned, which, right, the way they were teaching it. So that wasn't what they wanted, right?

Randy Ewart 52:06

And people can disagree and say, well, they still shouldn't teach it that way. And, and I'm, and I'm not here to defend it. I'm just here providing information. But then I will say, you know, it is what it is, yeah. And your student needs to learn it. So then ask them same thing with this that I mentioned with the assessment, ask for an example, say, show me what this should look like, and what does mastery look like? I put some thought into this. And I think that's what I've come up with, as far as some suggestions for for parents,

52:33

you any of those sites that you recommend do lessons, for example, I know sometimes a lot of schools use Khan Academy, right, so the children can go and look up and say I'm having trouble with blank, and they can look up those lessons and watch a lesson. Are there sites that do that that would be helpful to parents that you think of?

Randy Ewart 52:52

Yeah, like, I'll mention one, and then and then rest in your blog, put them in the blog, I want to say something in general about that. And then I'll mention one site. So in general, you know, sometimes these sites like a Khan Academy will work for one student, but not another. I mean, just like you know, we have different tastes or different needs. So the way I do things is I just I try something and if it works for the student, I keep using it. If it doesn't work, I go find something else. So like a doctor assigning us medicine or prescribing us medicine. I got Allegra once for my allergies that didn't work. And my doctor is like, Okay, let me give you something else. Let's find something that works. Mary,

53:29

say try try again and then try something different.

Randy Ewart 53:33

Right? Yeah, well, right, we a lot of times people get stuck in the end, just trying the same thing. That's what that's what they know. Now the the site that I recommend is I excel, it's those three letters, I excel.com. It's very straightforward. It's nothing snazzy about it in terms of the presentation. So it's not going to work for everybody. But the nice thing about it is it gives a lot of practice problems, you get immediate feedback. And it keeps collects the data so that you can go look at it in you as a parent and see how many problems that they tried, how many problems they got correct, it'll do a running score. I gotta tell students just stop at 80 You can go up to 99. And then from 90 to 100 is like a challenge section. So if you want them to go to 100, and challenge them, and then if they get a problem wrong, it gives them a written out feedback on that. And then that's where for some kids, that doesn't work for them. Maybe it doesn't work for parents, but you try it and I have some others posted I have some worksheets online worksheet providers sites listed, and they can take a look at those. And there's another thing another site called Brain Genie, and they have videos and it's kind of like a Khan Academy. I think it's easier to use. So I would say you know, try one of those three sites and see if one of those work well. I

54:58

mean, one of the things I've been telling my parents, you know, my my clients who are parents is to document things, as you were saying, this is a great opportunity. They're home, they're working with their students, they can see firsthand what the student is or isn't doing, if there's something that they should have mastered. But the parents are saying that they didn't, I am telling parents, so let's just get a little notebook for yourself and just start writing down the things that children are having challenges with. But the other thing that it's really great for is that parents can individualize even further, if they so choose. I know sometimes for children, they get really overwhelmed. And there are a ton of math problems on the sheet. And for whatever reason that visual, when it's a page full of math problems, can set off some anxiety for students. So to give them one problem at a time, that's fine, if that's better for them. And that's something parents can do now. Because when they're home and more one on one or more individual work, it doesn't take the same amount of time to learn as it does in the public school with 23. Other room, right. So, you know, you could get through those academics sooner, or you may have the time to individualize and then, you know, for some students, I know that if you just put one problem on the sheet, it just reduces all that anxiety, and they're able to go through it or take a break between problems or do something else, you know, now that parents are, they still have to deliver the same work. But there are lots of ways we can present it that we can be creative about now.

Randy Ewart 56:33

That yes, you know, that's that is the silver lining to this. But you know, there's a cost, obviously, the extra work, but then you do get a little more chance get more opportunity to kind of control this situation, we talked about giving breaks, one of the things that I have posted on my blog, and I'll make it easy to find for the listeners is a system that I've used where I'll do when I had to consumer math classes, and I had to individualize for all the students, I would use a manila folder for each student. And inside the folder is a printed out agenda. Each row represented a new tasks for them to work on. And some students needed more breaks or needed some motivation, some rewards. And so then I could individualize for that, for example, I had one guy on the spectrum. He loves jelly beans, and I got permission from his parents to provide him some jelly beans. And so the first line on the agenda was to go to Excel and do a problem. And then the next line would be a picture of jelly beans. And so when he finished, I would give him I had a big bag of jellybeans had pour like six or seven into a cup, and he could take a break. And he would go look at the weather, he loved the weather. And then he would eat his jelly beans. And then when he was done, he would go to the next row and start the next topic and work on it. And then when we got to the jelly beans, again, couple rows later, he let me know we do it all over again,

57:59

right in the schedule. So it's not something was not something extra, it's this is part of the day.

Randy Ewart 58:05

That's right, and it and he and he saw it and he was motivated, he actually said to me, when I first showed him the jelly beans, he said you had to get jelly beans didn't do. And it worked like a charm for him. So you can do that with your own kids. I do that. And for my son Gabriel that has autism, I planned out where I'll do like a training program with them. And then afterwards, we'll do fun, like a leisure activity or something that'll break it up. And then we'll go do something some more training. And you could do that for all levels of kids. You know, most kids need a break. And so you can build that in. And the break can be you can still be educational, but maybe it could be the thing that they really enjoy. So if they love reading, maybe they take a break and read for a while the book they're supposed to read for class, and then they go back and do the math if they don't like the math or, or vice versa.

58:54

There are leisure activities that can be productive, too. I you know, I think that there's it's so easy. And I'm hearing this a lot parents getting very frustrated. And they're like, you know, we spent all morning doing the academics. And I'm like, Well, maybe you should spread them out more. You do that some kids? Yeah, I have one kid who actually my eldest, she would sit down and just do the work and just keep going, if you kept handing it to her, and she wouldn't complain. I have other children in my house that would not work for have to get up and move their bodies and do that sort of thing. But I liked that idea of putting it straight in the agenda. This is part of what we're doing and you know, being able to see throughout the day, because at school, they know what their day is that's typical. This isn't typical for them and, and for students in school. They've been doing it for a long time. So this really is new for the kids too. And they also just because they had a schedule at school doesn't mean they're going to totally understand and grasp the concept of the schedule now. So Right. You know, I think I like that idea of as putting those breaks in there,

Randy Ewart 1:00:02

right? Yeah, that's so. So and then the other thing I mentioned, and this is on the blog already, too is any parent can sign up for a Google account and then access what they call Google Classroom. And Google Classroom is an online site where you can run a virtual classroom, you can post assignments, you can post videos, activities, or handouts. I

1:00:26

think a lot of parents are getting familiar with Google Classroom, right?

Randy Ewart 1:00:29

Yeah, that's right. If they hadn't heard of, if they had heard of it before, they're gonna hear of it. Now, on a funny side note, my phone just heard me say the G word. And it started talking back to me. But on the Google Classroom, I shouldn't have said that word, the I can, I created one class, or both of them, my non disabled kiddos, and then one for my guy with autism, that some of his teachers have access to. And then what I'll do is I'll post their work and you can set it so it only posts to one for one of them. So like, for my boy, I post work and only he can see it. And then for my girl, I post work only she can see it. No, I can

1:01:11

create a Google Classroom page. Yes, even if I'm not a teacher, you can take that and utilize that with my own children for whatever enrichment or whatever, or additional

Randy Ewart 1:01:23

eyebright I'm supplementing, because I find that my son is not getting enough work and no knock against the district. You know, they try to come up with what they can. And then I supplement it with some I excel now, they are not making any money from sales or like selling memberships.

1:01:40

But you in genuine referral.

Randy Ewart 1:01:43

Yeah, it is in they they have they cover in language arts, science, social studies, and even Spanish. And so I bought a you can get like a math account for like $7 a month, you can get one for all the content area for like 20 something for the month. And what I do is I assigned them language arts, social studies, science and Math, to supplement what they're already getting. And they have it posted on their Google Classroom. And when they so they know at a certain point during the day, it's time to go back to work. And then they look in there. And I set all this up the night before. So you know, I'm a parent. It's hard for me, but I'm up late. And I will film

1:02:23

and we have Right, right? Yeah. And I'm sitting in bed with my laptop. My husband said what are you doing? Like it's quiet? I can finally get it done. Yeah,

Randy Ewart 1:02:33

well, my Well, I have a son who will he'll stay awake. So I have to run off to an office space and escape and, and in, but then I'll set it up. So the next day, everyone knows what they're supposed to do. And then what I do is throughout the day, we do checkpoints where I'll say, Okay, what did you work on? Show me what you did. And then if they're lacking in some work, then they have to make up that time. And they got to they got to get the work done sooner or later. And they once they realize that they're more likely to get it done.

1:03:01

Yeah. Well, that's great. Randy, I can't tell you how helpful this is. I feel like there's just so much information and you somehow just made math makes so much more sense. To me. I love the way you talk about it being a different language. It's It's so true. And not linear, but a web. It's so true. I mean, that's just such a great visual, right? When we're talking about that disconnect between, say reading and math. Well, that's a web and this is a linear process. And it's two

Meredith Masony 1:03:32

different notes really, really great and helpful. So thank you for being here. And thank you for talking with me and giving us all this wonderful information. I will be putting your blog, which is CT, spared math do.com in the show notes,

1:03:48

and if you can get me those other links that you're talking about, I can put them in my show notes too, so that anyone can see them if they want to go back there, or they can go to your blog to find them. Randy Wert. And if people want to find you, they go to your blog, and they can contact you through that. Right,

Randy Ewart 1:04:03

right. That's correct. Yeah. And then and then a Facebook page to CT spread math dude, on Facebook, they can. A lot of people ended up contacting me through that. Which, yeah, yeah.

1:04:14

Well, and I also just want to clarify, like, aside from tutoring, you do do tutoring, you do full math content, you do evaluations, you also consult and you can consult on goals and objectives as well. Correct.

Randy Ewart 1:04:26

If it's math, and it's kids with special needs, I'll do it, whatever parents need. And sometimes people reach out with an email, just ask me a question. And I'm happy to answer that. And some people want to hire me to do certain things. And then I make time for that as well.

Meredith Masony 1:04:44

Yeah, well, great. Thank you. And I think it's great to have people like you out there because right now is really tough for everybody. So it's it's wonderful. When I found you and I put out to my listserv, does anyone know someone who evaluates math and I got your name. I was blown away because we really don't have a lot resources like that. So thank you very much for everything you're

Randy Ewart 1:05:02

doing. You're welcome.

Dana Jonson 1:05:04

Thank you so much for joining me today. Please don't forget to subscribe to this podcast so that you get notifications whenever new episodes are available. You can also find this podcast on his website at special ED dot life. You can follow me on Instagram at special ED dot life or you can email me at Dana at special ED dot life. I want to know what you want to know. So please reach out with your comments and questions. And I'll see you next time here on need to know with Dana Jonson Have a great day

Episode Link: https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/episode-5-do-you-want-some-lime-with-that-corona

Today we are discussing Coronavirus and how the pandemic effects your child's program and what you can do to preserve your rights during this uncertain time. As you all know by now, the school closures are not about preventing Covid-19 but rather slowing down the spread so that our healthcare system can manage it. My understanding is that our local hospital is already at capacity! It is likely this will be the new normal for a while so we will do our best to give you updates and tips for working collaboratively with your school to find solutions while protecting your rights at the same time. These are challenging times and uncharted waters and we are all doing our best, including the school districts. While they can not be excused from their obligations to serve all students, they do need the opportunity to formulate a plan in accordance with daily changing guidance coming from many sources. So, what's next? Great question. Below, we answer some questions and offer some tips for getting through. Please also check the SEEK of CT website (https://seekct.com/) for updates. SEEK has posted the letter it sent to the Commissioner of Education, signed by most of us in the community, as well as updates on school/community closures. Hopefully, the following will be helpful: First and foremost, DON'T SIGN ANYTHING before your attorney reviews it! Some schools have been requesting families sign waivers in order to video conference for their services/supports. While many of these waivers may be appropriate, parents of children with disabilities may unwittingly relinquish their rights when signing these waivers. In an abundance of caution, we recommend asking a special education attorney to review any such waiver before signing it. If you don't have a special education attorney, call one. At least in CT, most special ed attorneys are working tirelessly to get schools and the State to meet their obligations to children with disabilities during this crisis time and would be happy to consult with you (check COPAA.org for an attorney near you). It may also be that schools want to amend your child's existing IEP to reflect any modifications to service delivery necessary for a virtual learning experience. Again, please have this reviewed by an attorney prior to signing ANYTHING as you do not want your child's IEP changed after in-school services resume and you don't want to have to fight for services you previously had in place. It needs to be clear that any change in services due to the limited ability of schools to provide virtual services for children with disabilities is temporary. You may also disagree with services but still let the school implement them. If you do not agree with the temporary services your school is offering, you may express your disagreement and let them implement it so that your child does not go without any instruction during this time. Yet again, however, if you find yourself in this position, we strongly recommend consulting with an attorney. DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT! Now is a great opportunity for you to document all the skills your child does or does not demonstrate. Are they presenting at home with skills they do not demonstrate at school? Has the school deemed goals & objectives mastered but you see no evidence of mastery in your current interactions with your child? As you are helping your children through this world of virtual classrooms, keep a journal of your child's strengths, weaknesses, etc so that when we do get back to the table, you have a good recount of everything. As your school supports your child with virtual services, it will be on an individual basis whether or not these services are in alignment with your child's IEP so keep records of all virtual sessions including related services such as counseling, OT, tutoring, etc. NOTHING IS SET IN STONE There is still a great deal of uncertainty about the details and things are changing fast. You may recall some schools or businesses swearing they wouldn't close who are now closed indefinitely. This is an unpredictable time. While we are all hoping our children are back in their regular programs soon, there is a strong chance most school buildings will be closed for the rest of the school year. Take everything with a grain of salt. THERE ARE NO WAIVERS FOR FAPE - but stay alert! The law requires that students with disabilities receive a free appropriate public education (FAPE) - this is for students with IEPS and 504 Plans. No waivers of that requirement have been issued yet. There are, however, some Congressmen trying to change that so please keep on top of proposed legislation and reach out to all of your reps encouraging them to vote against any such waivers. COPAA is updating its action alert as needed. SEEK of CT is also offering updated information on its website. While the obligation to provide a FAPE lapses when there is no school, such as on a snow day, the obligation remains if education is being provided to others, even through distance learning. This means that as long as regular education students are receiving an education, children with special educational needs are entitled to one as well. That being said, we don't yet know what this will look like or how it will be implemented so it is important for us to remain cooperative and flexible while also vigilant. Please remember that your child has rights and there are many of us out there fighting for them, working with school districts and the State to help figure this all out. Unfortunately, due to social distancing, many activities like prom and graduation may likely be impacted. So long as they are happening for students without disabilities, however, they must include students with disabilities. IS DISTANCE LEARNING A CHANGE IN PLACEMENT FOR MY CHILD? Yes. If this new plan extends over more than 10 days, it is a change in placement as educating a child through distance learning is clearly a departure from direct services in school. For most students with disabilities, this means a PPT needs to be held to address the change in placement. For some, however, changes can be addressed through an amendment. Changing your child's IEP in any manner, however, can result in permanent changes and make it harder for you to obtain compensatory education services later. This is why we strongly recommend speaking to an attorney to review any language so that you know your rights are protected moving forward. Your child's IEP can outline contingency plans such as, "Should school close for the COVID-19 pandemic, Jane's distance learning plan is attached." This helps identify that the parents are working cooperatively with their school but not in agreement with the program under typical circumstances. Agreement to compensatory education can also be included in the IEP such as, "The school agrees to pay for X number of hours of OT through the family's private OT provider" or "The school is offering X ESY placement as compensatory education for the effect of COVID-19 on the current school year." Many of these types of agreements may have a seperate CONFIDENTIAL SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT with them. Again, consult with an attorney before signing anything! WHAT HAPPENS TO MY CHILD'S OUT-OF-DISTRICT PROGRAM? If your child is placed out-of-district through a settlement agreement or their IEP, the terms of that agreement/IEP remain in force. If the placement is operating, the district has to continue to support it. If the agreement/IEP provides for transportation, the district has to continue to supply transportation. If your child is receiving distance learning from their private placement, then tuition should still be covered as per the terms of your agreement/IEP. If you have a settlement agreement, however, and if that agreement has some minimum attendance requirement in it and the placement closes, we may well face a fight to get the full level of reimbursement from the district. Definitely consult with your attorney. If your child is placed out-of-district through an IEP and the placement is closed and they are NOT providing distance learning OR the distance learning put in place is not appropriate for your child, then your school district is still responsible for implementing their IEP and you will likely need a PPT to determine what is next. If your child attends a private school through agreement/IEP, please note that the private school does not have the same obligation to provide 180 school days (which has currently been waived for public schools as well). If your child is attending private school by agreement, the private school has no responsibility to implement the IEP or offer compensatory education. That being said, many private schools may offer ESY or additional services to address the needs of their student population. DO SCHOOLS STILL NEED TO HOLD PPTs WHILE SCHOOL BUILDINGS ARE CLOSED? Yes. And no. If school is closed for spring break or a snow day, school's do not have to hold PPTs. This however, is not spring break or a snow day. Once we get past the 10 missed days of school, we get into new territory. But there is no waiver of FAPE so PPTs still need to be held. A number of schools have stepped up to holding video or telephonic PPTs during this time. You can be sure it will take some time to smooth out all the technical challenges that go along with virtual/remote PPTs but it is a start! There is a valid argument that PPTs may not be best to be held right now as parents are overwhelmed and many participants are also teachers who are trying to deal with their own kids at home. While schools are closed for this pandemic the FAPE requirement continues and the procedural requirements of the law continue, including the need for annual review PPT meetings. Parents can waive objections to a late annual review PPT, but school districts trying to stay in compliance with the State may not agree to postpone it. If it is a scheduling issue, parents can agree with their school to not change anything in the IEP until the team can meet again, thus allowing the PPT to be held by it's required date and the parents can still fully participate at another time that better suits their availability. Remember that PPTs have always been required over the summer if needed, and this summer will likely have many! Issues regarding appropriate personnel attending PPTs will have to be resolved and possibly subject to a waiver in certain, yet unidentified circumstances. SHOULD I PARTICIPATE IN VIRTUAL MEETINGS? PPT meetings, mediations, and due process hearings will continue during the period of closure; they will be conducted either through telephone conference calls or through video streaming services. Without the moderating impact of direct human contact, these meetings are likely to be more formal and more confrontational than in-person meetings. Please be aware of this fact: do not let the format ruin your relationship with your school. At the same time, do not let your silence be mistaken for assent. WHAT IS COMPENSATORY EDUCAITON AND HOW DOES IT APPLY TO MY CHILD? Compensatory education is not just meant to replace missed services (i.e. school is closed for 3 months so my child missed 12 OT sessions so the school needs to provide 12 OT sessions). Compensatory education is meant to bring the child up to where they would have been had they received the services. So, while 12 sessions may have worked when provided on time, given the regression/lack of learning that occurred during those 3 months, the student now needs 30 sessions to catch them back up to where they would have been had they received the services when they were supposed to. It is important to note that compensatory education does not need to take the same form as was originally written in the IEP. For example, a student may require a 1:1 para for behavior under typical circumstances but the compensatory education to bring the student back to where they would have been may not require a 1:1 para. If you have an agreement with a public school to pay for any private services outside of school hours (i.e. reading tutor, speech therapy, etc.) speak to an attorney about how to properly notify the school that you intend to continue with these services (in person or virtually depending on the availability of the service provider) and will continue to expect the district to pay for these services. As I said at the beginning, things are changing and uncertain. This may be a time for patience. It might be good to work with your school over the next week or two to see what can be developed for your child before moving to confrontation. We are ready to advocate for you when it becomes necessary, but first we need a new normal to be established. Please do not hesitate to reach out to us with any questions or concerns you have. We are dedicated to helping you get the services you need for your child!

There are so many reasons parents consider alternative programs for their children. I'm not talking about special education schools today, I'm talking about alternative programs that have the freedom and flexibility to offer out of the box schooling. While not specifically designed for students with disabilities, sometimes the nature of such programs (small classes, individual attention, smaller building, project based learning, nurturing environments, etc) allow them to meet the needs of the individual child as well as those of the larger group.

Today we are meeting with Lockey Coughlin, founder and director of Education Without Walls, an alternative program in New Milford, CT. Lockey is a homeschooling parent whose journey with her 3 children through their schooling (all are off in college now!) led to the creation of an alternative program for middle and high school students located in the historic down town of New Milford, CT. Lockey talks to us about how Education Without Walls came to be, what it has turned into, and the students who go there - because it is always all about the students.

Education Without Walls (EWoW) focuses on interest-based classes whenever possible and, despite a well-established program, Lockey is always open to and excited about new ideas and interests from the children. EWoW has a new building this year, right off the green in New Milford just steps from the historic down town. The location is perfect because EWoW incorporates the downtown into their campus utilizing many of the resources found just within a stones throw. Lockey ensures all children at EWoW feel heard, safe, and part of a community. In addition to critical academics and an outdoor program, students learn critical thinking, problem-solving, and social skills that they will need to prepare them for college and life.

Episode Link: https://ntkwdj.libsyn.com/Alternative-Schools-with-Lockey-Coghlin