Ever wondered why the same church conflict keeps showing up with different names? We sit down with intentional interim pastor and certified Christian conciliator Dan Werthman to unpack how family systems theory, shame awareness, and differentiation can turn anxious reactivity into steady, compassionate leadership.

Dan’s path—from Air Force JAG and civil litigation to the pulpit and peacemaking—gives him a rare lens on church transitions. He explains why process matters more than content, how triggers formed in our families of origin hijack ministry moments, and why pastors must do their own work before trying to “fix” a congregation. We explore practical tools: mapping genograms to see multigenerational patterns, refusing triangles, slowing urgency, and using calm, clear statements that lower anxiety without losing conviction. 

Across the conversation, we lean into the hard truth that forgiveness often  

We truly see the stories that shaped our parents and ourselves. Dan describes how curiosity-based conversations, guided by a coach, deepened compassion and shifted his leadership presence. If you’re navigating a transition, leading a conflicted team, or simply tired of repeating the same reactive patterns, this episode offers a grounded path forward: more clarity, more connection, and a church culture that breathes instead of bracing.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who leads under pressure, and leave a rating or review to help more pastors find practical tools for renewal.

Resources 

• Ronald W. Richardson, Becoming a Healthier Pastor
• Roberta M. Gilbert, The Eight Concepts of Bowen Theory
• Edwin H. Friedman, Generation to Generation. info.gottman.com
• Jack Shitama,
  • Anxious Church, Anxious People
  • If You Met My Family, You’d Understand
  • The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast
• The Bowen Center for the Study of the Family.
• Peacemaker Ministries / The Peacemaker (Ken Sande)
• John and Julie Gottman, Fight Right

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