When does a church’s passion for truth quietly turn into pressure to conform? We take an honest look at the difference between unity and uniformity, drawing from Romans 14, family systems thinking, and years of practical ministry to show why love and conscience create a stronger body than social sameness ever could. Instead of settling every debatable matter by decree, we explore how Paul invites believers to be fully convinced before the Lord while refusing contempt and judgment—an approach that requires more courage, empathy, and spiritual dependence than quick-fix rules.

We get practical about “surrounding togetherness pressure,” the subtle group dynamics that push everyone to align on third- and fourth-tier issues. From politics and schooling choices to secondary doctrinal distinctives, we surface the flashpoints that regularly divide otherwise aligned Christians. Then we re-center on what must be uniform—Christ’s person and work, repentance and faith, core orthodoxy—and where principled freedom should prevail. Along the way, we confront identity anxiety, the urge to build extra fences for safety, and the temptation to play Holy Spirit in one another’s lives.

Differentiation becomes the throughline: hold your convictions, stay emotionally connected, and dignify the other’s agency without ceding first things. That’s not isolation; it’s the soil where trust grows and real discipleship happens. If Jesus said the world would know us by our love, not our sameness, then healthy churches must cultivate cultures where conscience is honored, mercy governs disputes, and delegated authority stays within biblical limits. Listen to be refreshed in gospel proportion, equipped with language for triage, and encouraged to build communities where unity thrives without erasing difference.

If this conversation helps you lead or love your church better, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review so others can find the show. Your feedback helps more leaders pursue gospel‑shaped community.

Resources

• Jack Shitama, Anxious Church, Anxious People “differentiation” language used in family systems context;
• Romans 14(conscience, disputable matters
• Ephesians 4:4–6 “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”
• Ephesians 2:14 dividing wall of hostility
• Matthew 22:37–40 greatest commandment
• Matthew 23:23 tithing mint and cumin; weightier matters
• Luke 14:5 and Matthew 12:11 ox in a ditch on  Sabbath
• Matthew 22:1–14 wedding garment parable

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What if the real problem isn’t the conflict you can see, but the quiet anxiety beneath it—fed by image management, blame, and good things loved too much? We go straight to the heart of church renewal: why gospel-centered repentance, not better tactics, restores trust, lowers system anxiety, and makes space for the Spirit’s comfort.

We start where Scripture starts, tracing the first blame shift in Eden and contrasting it with David’s Godward confession. Then we get practical about what repentance really is: not just “I’m sorry I yelled,” but naming the deeper idol—control, nostalgia, efficiency, even a beloved hymn—that felt at risk. When leaders admit fault and point to Jesus, authority strengthens, not shrinks. Psychological safety grows; truth can be spoken without fear; mission outranks image. Along the way, we unpack the difference between content, context, and container, and why mistaking containers for the gospel keeps churches tense and brittle.

You’ll hear concrete steps for pastors and elders to build a repentance culture: invite outside perspective, return to sidelined truth-tellers, confess first in leadership meetings, and teach people how to identify heart idols. Expect a tone that is playful yet serious, honest about grief, and hopeful about what God can do with a humble people. If you’re longing for a calmer church, truer leadership, and fewer scapegoats, this conversation offers language, frameworks, and courage to begin.

If this resonated, share it with your team, subscribe for more church renewal conversations, and leave a review to help other leaders find it.

Resources

• Genesis 3 – Adam and Eve’s blame-shifting in the Garden 
• Psalm 51 – “Against You and You only have I sinned”
• 2 Corinthians 1:3-4 – God of all comfort
• Jeremiah 3 – Call to return; “broken cisterns” imagery continues into 
• Jeremiah 2:13
• Galatians 5:22-23 – Fruit of the Spirit
• Romans 1:21-23 – Idolatry: exchanging the glory of God for created things

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Matt and Jeremy hope that you have a very joyful and connected and Happy Thanksgiving. We are going to be with our families today, pressing to connection, and maybe even against some togetherness pressures. But always mindful of where we end, and the other person begins. (I couldn't resist -... Man, there are potential differentiation jokes everywhere!)

We are going to air the episode that would have gone live today - tomorrow. Please look for it on Friday the 28th (2025) as it's a really good one. For now, Turn us off, and go delight in your friendships, family, and invest in the relationships that God has blessed you with. 

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Leadership under pressure isn’t about having the sharpest argument—it’s about holding steady when anxiety spikes. We sit down with Dan Werthman to explore how family systems theory helps pastors lead with presence instead of panic, especially when shame, polarization, and perpetual urgency try to set the agenda. Dan shares a vivid case of an overfunctioning lead pastor and the underfunctioning culture that followed, showing how accurate naming, sabbatical rhythms, and clear responsibility can reset a team toward health.

Together we unpack triangles and the subtle ways pastors get pulled into conflicts they don’t own. Dan’s distinction is freeing: ministry requires entering triangles, but being triangulated happens when we abandon emotional neutrality to win approval or avoid disappointment. We walk through practical tools—preparation, pausing, and reflection—that help leaders notice physiological cues (tight stomach, racing thoughts), slow the fight-flight-freeze response, and re-engage with clarity. Along the way, we connect insights from Friedman, Gilbert, Shitama, and Steinke to a deeply Christian center: love God, love your neighbor, and refuse to confuse enablement with care.

If you’ve felt the weight of “live monkeys” dropped on your desk, or watched your yes become everyone else’s habit, this conversation offers a path back to thoughtful, Christ-centered leadership. You’ll hear language for overfunctioning, frameworks for emotional neutrality, and ways to ground hard conversations in presence rather than pressure—so your church can mature, not just manage. If this resonates, share it with a fellow leader, subscribe for more, and leave a review to help others find the show. Your voice helps more pastors lead with calm in anxious times.

References

• Edwin H. Friedman — Generation to Generation (triangles & family systems in congregations)
  
• The Bowen Center — “Triangles”
  
• Pete Scazzero — Emotionally Healthy Relationships (clarifying expectations tool)
  “Clarify Expectations” overview
• John & Julie Gottman — Bids for Connection
  
• The 10 Minute Bible Hour
  
• Jack Shitama — The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast
   Anxious Church, Anxious People
• Luke 17:3–4
  Matthew 5:23–24
  Matthew 18:15–17 

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Ever wondered why the same church conflict keeps showing up with different names? We sit down with intentional interim pastor and certified Christian conciliator Dan Werthman to unpack how family systems theory, shame awareness, and differentiation can turn anxious reactivity into steady, compassionate leadership.

Dan’s path—from Air Force JAG and civil litigation to the pulpit and peacemaking—gives him a rare lens on church transitions. He explains why process matters more than content, how triggers formed in our families of origin hijack ministry moments, and why pastors must do their own work before trying to “fix” a congregation. We explore practical tools: mapping genograms to see multigenerational patterns, refusing triangles, slowing urgency, and using calm, clear statements that lower anxiety without losing conviction. 

Across the conversation, we lean into the hard truth that forgiveness often  

We truly see the stories that shaped our parents and ourselves. Dan describes how curiosity-based conversations, guided by a coach, deepened compassion and shifted his leadership presence. If you’re navigating a transition, leading a conflicted team, or simply tired of repeating the same reactive patterns, this episode offers a grounded path forward: more clarity, more connection, and a church culture that breathes instead of bracing.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who leads under pressure, and leave a rating or review to help more pastors find practical tools for renewal.

Resources 

• Ronald W. Richardson, Becoming a Healthier Pastor
• Roberta M. Gilbert, The Eight Concepts of Bowen Theory
• Edwin H. Friedman, Generation to Generation. info.gottman.com
• Jack Shitama,
  • Anxious Church, Anxious People
  • If You Met My Family, You’d Understand
  • The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast
• The Bowen Center for the Study of the Family.
• Peacemaker Ministries / The Peacemaker (Ken Sande)
• John and Julie Gottman, Fight Right

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Matt and Jeremy explore triangulation as one of the most common relational patterns in families and churches, often forming unconsciously as a way of managing anxiety or tension.

• Triangles are the most stable relational form, which is why they're so common and hard to escape
• Unhealthy triangulation occurs when two people talk about a third party not present with the goal of enlisting help
• Systems will focus energy on protecting their weakest parts at the expense of their strongest parts
• Pastors and leaders often get triangulated when people bring them "monkeys" (problems) that aren't theirs to solve
• Differentiation allows leaders to stay emotionally present while refusing to take responsibility for others' issues
• Recognizing when you're being triangulated helps you respond with "What do you think you should do about that?"
• The goal isn't to solve people's problems but to help them mature in handling their own challenges
• Breaking free from triangulation may disappoint people but ultimately creates healthier church systems

Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or simply someone who wants healthier relationships, this episode offers transformative insights for recognizing and resisting unhealthy triangles. Subscribe to the Church Renewal Podcast for more wisdom on creating healthier church systems where maturity can flourish.

Resources

• Edwin H. Friedman Generation to Generation (triangles & family systems in congregations)
  
• The Bowen Center “Triangles” (concept overview)
  
• Pete Scazzero Emotionally Healthy Relationships
• (clarifying expectations tool)
• (“Clarify Expectations” overview: 
• John & Julie Gottman Bids for Connection (how to notice/respond to bids)
  
• The 10 Minute Bible Hour (podcast Jeremy referenced)
  
• Jack Shitama — The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast (story about staying non-anxious / not catching the “Christmas Eve” complaint ball)
    (Book often paired with this topic:  — 
• Scripture passages cited on going directly to a brother/sister (not triangulating):
  Luke 17:3–4
  Matthew 5:23–24
  Matthew 18:15–17

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

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We explore how anxiety moves through church systems and why leaders must act as circuit breakers who stay connected, calm, and clear under pressure. We ground the practice in biblical images of shepherding, trust, and identity secured in Christ rather than outcomes.

• herding and the identified patient masking deeper issues
• positive and negative feedback loops shaping reactions
• anxiety flowing up and down between pastors and congregations
• circuit breaker leadership that absorbs anxiety without transmitting it
• the difference between calm connection and dismissive detachment
• practical examples of amplifying versus regulating fear
• rooting non‑anxious presence in trust in God and clear identity
• rhythms of prayer, reflection, and measured response that steady culture

We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate, or review our show whenever you're listening

Resource A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix — Edwin 

• A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix — Edwin H. Friedman. ChurchPublishing.org
•  Anxious Church, Anxious People: How to Lead Change in an Age of Anxiety  Jack Shitama. Amazon
• Confessional document
   – Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 8 “Of Christ the Mediator.” EPCEW
• Biblical Passages we talked about
  • Psalm 23. 
  •  Daniel 3 (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego). 
  • Matthew 3–4 (Baptism of Jesus; Temptation in the wilderness). 
  •  Matthew 14:22–33 (Jesus walks on the water). 
  • Galatians 6:2, 6:5 (bear one another’s burdens; each will bear his own load).
  •  1 Peter 5:7 (casting your anxieties on him). 
  • Joshua 1:9 (be strong and courageous). 

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

Leaders carry family baggage—patterns of conflict avoidance, expectations and wounds—into their ministry. Family of origin dynamics shape leadership instincts, blind spots and identity formation in ways that affect entire church systems.

• Reactivity vs. responsiveness: How our limbic system triggers fight/flight/freeze responses learned in childhood
• Understanding the transformation process between input and output in our responses
• Biblical examples like David show how unresolved family patterns resurface and magnify in leadership contexts
• Unconscious blind spots in leadership that stem from family dynamics
• Practical tools like genograms and timelines help identify patterns across generations
• The goal isn't blaming the past but understanding how it shapes present behaviors
• Reflection on past and present is necessary for the future to be different
• Even stable families have dysfunctional patterns that influence leadership

Ready to understand what shaped you so you can lead more effectively? Listen now and take your first step toward greater leadership clarity and health.

Resources

• Peter Scazzero — Emotionally Healthy Discipleship
• Milan & Kay Yerkovich — How We Love

References

• David & Bathsheba; Absalom’s Rebellion 2 Samuel 11–19
• Psalm 51 David’s prayer of repentance after his confrontation with Nathan.
• Genesis & the Patriarchs — Abraham, Isaac, Jacob: recurring family sins (lying, favoritism, rivalry) passed down generationally.
• King Solomon & Rehoboam 1 Kings 11–12: inherited patterns of idolatry and pride leading to division.

Key Concepts 

• Family of Origin Work
  The process of identifying patterns, wounds, and formative experiences in one’s family history that continue to influence present behavior and leadership.
• Reactivity vs. Responsiveness
   
  • Reactivity: automatic, limbic, defensive  “fight/flight/freeze” responses shaped by past wounds.
  • Responsiveness: thoughtful, Spirit-guided engagement filtered through identity in Christ.
• Genogram
  A multi-generational family map that includes names and dates, AND also patterns of relationships, trauma, conflict, addictions, divorces, and other significant events.
• Life Timeline
  A personal history tool that charts formative experiences and events across a lifetime to identify recurring patterns.
• Blind Spots
  Habits or dysfunctions inherited or internalized unconsciously that remain hidden until confronted.

Support the show

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

Jack Shitama joins us for part two of our conversation on family systems theory, exploring how Christian leaders can move from understanding differentiation to living it out in practice.

• Tracing Jack's journey from discovering Friedman's concept of "non-anxious presence" to making these ideas accessible through his books
• How the gospel uniquely empowers Christians to differentiate despite the costs
• Understanding Jesus as the ultimate model of self-differentiation and non-anxious presence
• Moving from insight to practice through preparation, pausing in difficult moments, and reflection
• Building habits of self-regulation through regular reflection and "think time"
• Navigating the challenges of shame-honor dynamics in contemporary culture
• The critical importance of loving other Christians with whom we disagree

Whether you're navigating church conflict, family dynamics, or personal growth, this episode delivers practical wisdom for developing the habits that transform anxiety into presence. Listen now to discover how preparation, pausing, and reflection can help you express your values clearly while maintaining meaningful connection with others.

Resources

• Part 1: Special Guest Jack Shitama: Learning to lead in anxious systems
• Friedman, A Failure of Nerve — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1596272791
• Herrington, Taylor & Creech, The Leader’s Journey — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1119535298 Amazon
• Patterson et al., Crucial Conversations — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1260474186 Amazon
• Bradberry & Greaves, Emotional Intelligence 2.0 — https://www.amazon.com/dp/0974320625 Amazon
• Ken Sande — Relational Wisdom 360 — https://rw360.org/ Relational Wisdom Institute
• Positive Intelligence (Shirzad Chamine) — https://www.positiveintelligence.com/ Positive Intelligence
• Steinke, Uproar: Calm Leadership in Anxious Times — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1506458559 Amazon
• The Non-Anxious Leader (podcast) — https:

Support the show

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

Jack Shitama brings clarity and wisdom to family systems theory in this transformative conversation about leadership, anxiety, and healthy church relationships. Drawing from decades of experience as a pastor, author, and coach, Jack breaks down complex concepts into accessible insights that can revolutionize how ministry leaders approach challenging situations.

The conversation begins with Jack sharing his personal journey into family systems thinking. His encounter with Edwin Friedman's work "Generation to Generation" opened his eyes to seeing congregational dynamics through a different lens—one that helped him stop taking things personally and instead view difficult behaviors as expressions of anxiety rather than personal attacks.

At the heart of the discussion is the concept of differentiation—knowing where you end and others begin, or as Jack puts it, "being a self and allowing others to be the same." This crucial leadership capacity creates healthy emotional space that enables others to mature.

Well talk about: 

- people-pleasing pastors who tend toward adaptivity (giving in without standing up for themselves) rather than traditional reactivity (becoming defensive or aggressive). 

-  Navigating criticism, recognizing sabotage, and responding as a non-anxious presence

Resources

• Friedman, Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church and Synagogue — https://www.amazon.com/dp/0896213417 Amazon
• “Genogram” overview — https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-genogram-5186652 EdrawMax
• Jack Shitama (Author)
  • Anxious Church, Anxious People — https://www.amazon.com/dp/1732009317 Amazon
  • If You Met My Family, You’d Understand — https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60376266-if-you-met-my-family-you-d-understand Amazon
  • Everyone Loves a Non-Anxious Presence — https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/56761973-everyone-loves-a-non-anxious-presence Amazon
  • The Non-Anxious Leader (Website) (Podcast)
• Lencioni, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team — https://www.amazon.com/dp/0787960756
• Boszormenyi-Nagy & Spark, Invisible Loyalties — https://www.amazon.com/dp/0876681765

Support the show

Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube.
If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.