Matt and Jeremy continue their conversation with Dr. Dave Miles Founder of Vital Church Ministry and explore what Dave calls "the unholy trinity" plaguing many churches: idolatry, conflict, and power. With the warmth of pastors rather than clinical consultants, they unpack how these issues repeatedly surface in struggling congregations.

Dave shares a story that perfectly captures church idolatry—an elder deeply troubled by a moved pulpit on Easter Sunday—illustrating how physical objects and traditions often become more sacred than the mission itself. Beyond this unholy trinity, Dave explains two additional challenges: "hypostatic disunion" (when institutional structures overshadow vision) and theological drift into mere moralism. This shift toward practical, self-help Christianity has created what he calls "shallow spirituality" in many American churches.

The conversation takes a fascinating turn toward family systems theory, exploring how transitional pastors must maintain a non-anxious presence while facilitating difficult changes. When leaders question long-established patterns, anxiety naturally rises within congregations, requiring both compassion and courage to address effectively. Dave emphasizes that their approach isn't about organizational reengineering but shepherding people "for whom Christ died."

Looking to the future, they candidly discuss the sobering reality of 15,000 churches closing annually and 50% of pastors retiring within five years. This "winnowing" process, while painful, reflects Jesus' warnings in Revelation about removing lampstands from unfaithful churches. Yet amid these challenges, the conversation concludes with profound hope—reminding listeners that the Father's invitation always remains: "Turn back to me because I love you and I have all of my riches waiting for you."

Listen to the first Part of our discussion

Listen to the second part of our conversation

Learn more about Vital Church Ministry and get help for your congregation. 

Ready to explore church renewal in your context? Connect with us at flourishcoaching.org or email [email protected] to discover how our team can help your ministry flourish wherever God has called you.

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What if your church's struggles aren't really about what they appear to be? In this thought-provoking second installment with Dr. Dave Miles Founder of Vital Church, we dive deep into the hidden emotional dynamics shaping church health and decline.

The conversation reveals a startling truth: beneath the surface of most church conflicts lie unaddressed emotional processes and unexamined patterns that Family Systems Theory helps uncover. "What looks like the problem is never the problem, ever," Dave shares, explaining how many church interventions fail because they never address root causes. When leaders bring unprocessed baggage from their families of origin into church leadership, reactive patterns emerge that resist true transformation.

The statistics are sobering—15,000 churches expected to close this year alone (that's 50 churches daily), another 15,000 unable to afford full-time pastors, and 25% of all American pastors retiring by 2030. But numbers tell only part of the story. The real crisis is one of identity and purpose, as churches have "lost the plot" of what it means to be Christ's body in the world. Drawing from Matthew 16, we explore how the church exists not for itself but as a blessing to all nations—a mission often obscured by institutional thinking.

Perhaps most poignant is our exploration of what people truly seek in church communities: love, acceptance, and belonging. Yet tragically, many find more genuine welcome in secular spaces than in congregations claiming to represent Christ's unconditional love. When churches misunderstand God's grace, they often extend the same conditional acceptance they believe God offers them—directly contradicting the gospel message. Join us for this challenging conversation about becoming non-anxious presences who can help churches rediscover their true calling.

Listen to the first part of our conversation with Dave

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Dr. Dave Miles has spent 31 years walking into church buildings where hope is dwindling, relationships are fractured, and the future seems uncertain. As founder of Vital Church Ministry, he's dedicated his career to being a spiritual first responder for congregations in crisis.

Growing up in Detroit's fundamentalist church scene, Dave found his faith truly blossomed through small group Bible study that "let the Bible speak for itself." This experience planted seeds for his future ministry, creating a passion for discovery-based discipleship approaches that would later shape his organization's DNA.

After completing doctoral work at Fuller Seminary focused on intentional interim ministry, Dave pioneered approaches to help churches navigate periods of transition. Unlike some early practitioners who took confrontational approaches to church intervention, Dave developed a methodology centered on spiritual discernment—what he describes as "seeking to know what the Spirit is saying to the church" and then facilitating movement in that direction.

What makes Dave's perspective particularly valuable is his observation of how American Christianity has transformed over three decades. When he began his work in the early 1990s, the United States was experiencing what he calls "the last gasps of Christendom"—a time when cultural Christianity still provided enough framework that evangelism could happen relatively quickly. Today's landscape requires churches to think like missionaries in a foreign land, prepared for "hours and hours of conversation" with people who lack basic Christian understanding.

The most profound challenge Dave encounters isn't just helping churches solve immediate leadership or structural problems. It's addressing a fundamental identity crisis where believers have never embraced their missionary calling as "ambassadors for Christ." His work involves not just diagnostic intervention but reorienting entire congregations toward this biblical identity that feels surprisingly new to many.

Ready to see your church move from survival to revival? Learn how intentional interim leadership might be the turning point your congregation needsLearn more about Vital Church Ministry  at their website: www.vitalchurchministry.org . We HIGHLY recommend them!. You can also visit flourishcoaching.org to start the conversation about renewal.

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A church in crisis. A pastor who suddenly departed. Deep divisions over COVID and politics. This intimate conversation with Bill Scionella, ruling elder at Columbia Presbyterian Church, reveals the powerful journey of a congregation that found its way back from the brink through humility, assessment, and intentional leadership development.
 
 When Columbia Presbyterian's pastor took a sabbatical and never returned in 2021, the leadership faced overwhelming challenges. Drawing from his experience with Baltimore Antioch Leadership Movement, Scionella recommended Flourish Coaching to guide their renewal process. What follows is a masterclass in church restoration that began not with quick fixes but with a profound elder retreat on pride and humility.
 
 The comprehensive health assessment Flourish conducted uncovered seven critical areas needing attention, including the revelation that "elders weren't trusted because they weren't known" – a direct result of the previous pastor's leadership style. Rather than rushing to replace their pastor, Columbia Presbyterian took two years to heal, understand their community, and clarify their vision before conducting a methodical pastoral search.
 
 The results speak volumes: within one year of installing their new pastor (remarkably, the first applicant who had previously interned at the church), attendance grew from under 200 to 275, giving increased by 25%, and most importantly, relationships were restored. As Bill reflects, "We did not hire Flourish to choose a pastor for us. We hired them to equip us to choose a pastor, and they couldn't have done it better."
 
 Whether you're a church leader navigating crisis or simply seeking to strengthen your congregation's health, this episode offers invaluable wisdom on patience, diagnostic clarity, and the delicate balance between business principles and spiritual discernment in church leadership. Subscribe now to hear more stories of church renewal and practical guidance for flourishing wherever God has called you.

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Dr. Tom Harris, President of Interim Pastor Ministries returns for the final installment of our three-part conversation, delivering powerful insights into the universal challenges facing churches in transition. Drawing from decades of experience, Tom identifies two critical weaknesses that consistently plague congregations: inadequate leadership development and the abandonment of evangelism.

The leadership development crisis stems from a theological education system that fails to equip pastors with mentorship skills. Tom shares a compelling story of a pastor who transformed his church through intentional leadership development—hosting weekly mentorship breakfasts with emerging leaders over decades. This systematic approach created a rich pipeline of capable leaders who strengthened every aspect of church ministry. Without such intentionality, churches remain perpetually understaffed with qualified leaders who understand their mission.

Perhaps most alarming is Tom's sobering assessment of the pastoral recruitment crisis. Where theological schools once had 100 candidates for every church opening, that pipeline has diminished drastically. With 50% of current pastors retiring within five years across some denominations, we're approaching a leadership vacuum that threatens church sustainability. Youth ministry positions already go unfilled, signaling deeper problems upstream in ministerial calling and preparation.

Tom introduces his book outlining eight strategic actions churches can take to thrive during transitions, emphasizing that churches who complete intentional transition work become significantly more attractive to the shrinking pool of pastoral candidates. Despite these challenges, the conversation concludes with hope—reminding listeners that Jesus deeply loves his bride, even in her brokenness, and continues calling and equipping leaders to guide her forward. Connect with Interim Pastor Ministry at interimpastors.com or reach out to Flourish Coaching to discover how strategic transitional leadership can transform your church's transition into an opportunity for renewed mission and growth.

Part 1 of our conversation with Dr. Harris

Part 2 of our conversation with Tom

"Soaring Between Pastors: 8 Actions to Thrive During A Pastoral Transition" by Dr. Tom Harris

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What happens in the critical space between pastors can determine a church's future trajectory for years to come. Dr. Tom Harris President of  Interim Pastor Ministries joins us to unpack why rushing to fill a pastoral vacancy might be the biggest mistake churches make during transitions.

Harris offers a compelling perspective on church identity, explaining how congregations often operate from the "imprint" of their previous pastor rather than discovering who they truly are. "Churches need to identify their true identity, not an inherited form or template," he shares, making a powerful case for intentional evaluation periods before launching into pastor searches.

Both Flourish Coaching and IPM approach transitions through structured processes that build congregational self-awareness. What makes these approaches powerful is their focus on first understanding history and present reality, then clarifying identity and direction, before searching for leadership that aligns with established vision. Churches that invest in this work find themselves making more successful pastoral matches and experiencing greater ministry continuity.

The conversation also reveals concerning trends in pastoral leadership, including decreased availability of energetic interim pastors post-COVID and fewer pastors entering ministry in key age demographics. These challenges highlight the growing importance of organizations that specialize in guiding churches through transitions effectively. How might your church benefit from a strategic approach to pastoral transition? The answers in this episode could transform how you view this critical season of ministry.

"Soaring Between Pastors: 8 Actions to Thrive During A Pastoral Transition" by Dr. Tom Harris

Moberg's Intentionality Grid resource

Part 1 of our conversation with Dr. Harris

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Dr. Tom Harris, President of Interim Pastor Ministries, brings three decades of hard-won wisdom to this conversation about the critical role of transitional leadership in churches experiencing pastoral change. With refreshing candor, Tom shares how he stumbled into interim ministry when interviewing for a permanent position at a struggling congregation. Recognizing their deeper needs for healing before welcoming another permanent pastor, Tom offered himself as an interim solution—launching a career that would span nine churches across America before assuming leadership of IPM.

Founded in 1990 by six denominational leaders who recognized that Sunday pulpit supply wasn't enough for churches in transition, Interim Pastor Ministries has grown to serve congregations across twenty different denominational traditions. The organization specializes in matching seasoned pastors with churches navigating the challenging waters between pastoral leadership.

What makes this conversation particularly valuable is Tom's insight into the counterintuitive nature of pastoral transitions. While most churches rush to find a replacement as quickly as possible, Tom explains why this often compounds existing problems. "Churches kick the can down the road," he observes, "and it ends up in the new pastor's yard." This powerful metaphor captures the essence of transitional ministry—creating space for congregations to address underlying issues rather than expecting the next pastor to magically solve them.

Tom also notes a concerning trend: churches today seem increasingly conflicted and resistant to honest self-evaluation. Yet he remains hopeful, sharing stories of congregations that finally embraced necessary change after years of struggle. The conversation illuminates how even healthy churches benefit from taking time between pastors to discover their true identity apart from their previous leader's imprint.

Moberg's Intentionality Grid resource

Interim Pastors Ministries is a great resource for church going through transition. Please reach out to them if you have a need. 

Ready to learn how your church might benefit from intentional interim ministry? This episode offers practical wisdom for church leaders facing transition and insights for pastors called to this unique ministry field. Connect with us at flourishcoaching.org to continue the conversation about church renewal and transitional leadership.

"Soaring Between Pastors: 8 Actions to Thrive During A Pastoral Transition" by Dr. Tom Harris

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

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Navigating a pastoral transition represents one of the most pivotal moments in a church's life. When Grace Point Church in Pennsylvania faced this challenge, they discovered that the path forward wasn't something they needed to forge alone.

Steve, former elder board chairman and search committee leader, shares the vulnerable journey of realizing that despite having experienced leaders with corporate hiring backgrounds, pastoral transitions require a fundamentally different approach. "That realization that this is a task too big for us, that we had to just trust the Lord was going to deliver and that the Lord was preparing for us" became the cornerstone of their process.

The conversation reveals how a structured, biblically-grounded approach transformed potential anxiety and division into unity and confidence. Steve candidly discusses the initial reluctance some felt about seeking outside help, and how that perspective shifted dramatically once they committed to the process. "Don't try to do it alone. That route is a minefield," he cautions other churches facing similar transitions.

Perhaps most surprisingly, Grace Point discovered that their professional, thoughtful approach attracted pastoral candidates they initially thought were "beyond what we had envisioned we would be able to bring." The careful attention to church health assessment, congregational preparation, and systematic evaluation created an environment where both the church and potential pastors could clearly discern God's leading.

Whether you're a church leader currently navigating transition or simply want to prepare wisely for the future, this conversation offers practical insights on stewarding these pivotal seasons with wisdom, prayer, and outside perspective. Connect with us at flourishcoaching.org to learn more about how our team can support your church through leadership transitions and beyond.

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Dr. Ken Quick of Blessing Point Ministry continues his conversation with Matt and Jeremy about how Jesus speaks to His church as a corporate body and why many congregations struggle to hear Him. The powerful story of a ninth-grade girl in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania whose whispered insight resonated with an entire congregation demonstrates how God often speaks through the most humble members. Part 1 of this conversation. Listen to Part 2. Dr. Q.'s books and resources.

Books that will help you:

The 8th Letter

Healing the Heart of Your Church

• Churches often experience "corporate resonance" when Jesus speaks—everyone knows they've heard from Him
• Modern church culture has trained leaders to listen individually but not corporately as Christ's body
• Many churches are "misshapen" because they only recognize and utilize certain spiritual gifts
• Current church leaders must sometimes take responsibility for historical wounds in their congregation
• Church board burnout is often a symptom of deeper spiritual dysfunction
• Learning to listen as a corporate body requires courage to face uncomfortable truths
• Churches must cultivate spaces where every member's spiritual gift can be expressed and heard
• The delusion affecting many churches today may be a form of divine discipline for not listening

For tools to assess your church's health and begin a journey toward wholeness, visit BlessingPoint.org where you'll find free resources including a simple 10-minute church health assessment.

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

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The Church Renewal Podcast explores how congregations can address their corporate history and discipline in the second part of our discussion with Dr. Ken Quick of Blessing Point Ministries. Churches often resist examining painful history, but Christ's love demands honest confrontation with the past to experience true renewal. Listen to Part 1 here.
The 8th Letter by Dr. Ken Quick.
• Churches exist as corporate bodies, not just collections of individuals, subject to Christ's discipline
• Jesus disciplines congregations he loves, sometimes removing their "lampstands" when they fail to address sin
• Biblical examples like David and the Gibeonites show God holds communities accountable for historical wrongs
• Sacred or solemn assemblies provide a biblical model for churches to corporately address sin and hear from God
• Structural changes (new constitutions, leadership models) fail to solve spiritual problems without addressing root causes
• Effective church renewal requires humbly listening to "the Lord of the church" rather than applying quick fixes
• Churches must take responsibility for their history, including reconciling with wounded former members and pastors
• The renewal process should involve the entire congregation in listening to the Spirit's guidance

Find infö on all of Dr. Quicks books.

Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. For more information, visit flourishcoaching.org or email [email protected].

Support the show

Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube.
If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.