Matt and Jeremy explore the concept of differentiation from outcome, revealing how pastors can remain faithful without tying their identity to ministry results. This liberating approach helps church leaders break free from unhealthy patterns of control or disappointment.

• Differentiation typically applies to relationships with people, but many leaders need to differentiate from outcomes as well
• Approximately 75% of pastors are externally driven (people-pleasers), while 25% are internally driven by goals and outcomes
• Both types of pastors can become "fused" to outcomes, making their identity dependent on things they cannot control
• Satan attacks leaders by suggesting failure means rejection by God
• The parable of talents illustrates the importance of faithfulness rather than control of outcomes
• Community spiritual discernment requires holding decisions open-handedly
• Jesus modeled "intentional faithfulness" in Gethsemane by submitting to the Father's will
• Leaders are called to be intentionally faithful with what they've been given—nothing more, nothing less

Whether you're struggling with control issues, battling disappointment, or simply seeking a healthier approach to ministry, this conversation provides practical wisdom for releasing outcomes to God while remaining faithful to your calling.

Resources

• Edwin H. Friedman — A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix Book link

References

• Parable of the Talents Matthew 25:14–30
• King Saul’s Unlawful Sacrifice 1 Samuel 13:8–14
• The Golden Calf Exodus 32
• Jesus in Gethsemane Matthew 26:36–46
• James’ Teaching James 4:13–15
• Paul’s Reminder Philippians 2:12–13

Key Concepts

• Differentiation from Outcome
  Distinguishing personal identity and value from the results of one’s leadership or goals. A recognition neither success or failure confer identity or value.
• Fusion to Outcomes
  When one’s identity is tied to whether goals succeed (control) or whether people are pleased (people-pleasing).
• Control vs. Trust
  The false response to failed outcomes is to seize control; the faithful response is to entrust results to God.
• Intentional Faithfulness
  The responsibility of Christian leaders is not to guarantee outcomes, but to faithfully steward what God has given — their gifts, opportunities, and people.

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Systems naturally strive for equilibrium, but when that equilibrium is dysfunctional, it fiercely resists healthy change. We explore the foundational concepts of family systems theory and how they apply to church leadership.

• Differentiation comes from biology – distinct cells that touch and connect while maintaining their unique identity
• Common errors include never approaching the line (emotional cutoff), stepping over the line into others' space (control), or failing to push back when boundaries are crossed
• A non-anxious presence means responding calmly despite feeling internal anxiety
• Differentiation requires understanding your identity in Christ deeply enough to resist togetherness pressure
• Leaders who differentiate create space for others to mature, though it often creates discomfort
• The gospel enables us to "afford to differentiate" because our identity is secure in Christ
• Differentiated leadership evokes different responses: attraction, repulsion, or sabotage

Books / Authors Mentioned

• Edwin H. Friedman — A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix
  Link (Amazon)
• Jack Shitama — Anxious Church, Anxious People: How to Lead Change in an Age of Anxiety
  Link (Amazon)
• Jack Shitama — If You Met My Family, You’d Understand: A Family Systems Primer
  Link (Amazon)
  Non-Anxious Leader site (audio, resources)
• Timothy Keller — The Freedom of Self-Forgetfulness
  Link (Amazon)
• Curt Thompson — The Soul of Shame
  (Amazon)

Organizations / Resources

• Vital Church Ministry — Organization specializing in interim pastoring and church diagnostics, founded by Dr. Dave Miles (previous CRP guest).
  Link

Key Biblical References / Themes

• Paul to Timothy: “I know whom I have believed…” (2 Timothy 1:12)
• Moses interceding for Israel after the golden calf incident (Exodus 32).
• Pilate’s trial of Jesus: “I find no fault in him…” yet yielding to pressure (John 18–19).
• Identity and acceptance in Christ: “This is my Son…with whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:17

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

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Church systems automatically resist change even when transformation is desperately needed, creating a tension between healthy spirit-led renewal and our natural tendency to maintain familiar patterns. Recognizing how this dynamic plays out in congregations requires understanding both family systems theory and biblical principles for healthy church life.

• Churches function as systems that naturally seek homeostasis (stability)
• Systems theory originated in production studies before being applied to human organizations
• Healthy systems maintain an appropriate set point, while unhealthy ones stabilize around dysfunction
• Jesus' letters in Revelation show His desire for churches to change when their set points are misaligned
• "All change is loss" - people experience even positive changes as something to grieve
• Leaders must focus on emotional processes, not just biblical content
• Process vs. content is crucial - people resist change emotionally even when they agree intellectually
• Triangulation occurs when anxiety enters relationships and a third party is brought in
• Sabotage happens when systems resist leadership-initiated change
• Strategic patience is essential for leaders guiding congregations through necessary transitions

Resources & Materials from CRP S4E3

• Frederick Winslow Taylor – The Principles of Scientific Management (1911)
  Foundational work in systems/production theory that influenced organizational and later family systems thinking.
  Read free online (Project Gutenberg)
• Edwin H. Friedman
   
  • Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church and Synagogue
    Amazon link
•  
  • A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix
    Amazon link
•  
• Jack Shitama
   
  • Anxious Church, Anxious People: How to Lead Change in an Age of Anxiety
    Amazon link
•  
  • If You Met My Family, You’d Understand: A Guide to Family Systems Theory for Clergy and Church Leaders
    Amazon link
•  
  • The Non-Anxious Leader Podcast (Jack reads the book in episodes ~50–60)
    Podcast site
•  
• Roberta M. Gilbert – Extraordinary Relationships: A New Way of Thinking About Human Interactions
  Introduction to Bowen Family Systems Theory’s eight core concepts.
  Amazon link
• Peter Block – Flawless Consulting: A Guide to Getting Your Expertise Used
  Includes key chapters on understanding and navi

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Churches, like families, instinctively resist change even when it's healthy because systems naturally seek stability—even dysfunctional stability.

• Family systems theory provides powerful insights for understanding church dynamics
• Western individualism misses our design for relationship and community
• Eastern collectivism correctly values community but can suppress healthy differentiation
• Jesus modeled perfect differentiation—maintaining values while staying connected
• Identity and acceptance cannot be self-manufactured but must be received
• When we try to work for acceptance rather than receive it, we create dysfunction
• The gospel uniquely addresses fear, guilt, and shame in church systems
• Church renewal requires addressing processes, not just content
• Self-differentiation means maintaining values while staying emotionally connected
• Healthy churches reflect both biblical authority and biblical acceptance

If you'd like to learn more about church renewal through a family systems approach, visit flourishcoaching.org or email [email protected]. We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate or review our show, and please share this episode with someone who might benefit!

• The Bible (Luke’s genealogy)
  Luke 3:23–38 — “…Adam, the son of God”
  Read on Bible Gateway
• C.S. Lewis – The Great Divorce
  Analogy of hell as isolation and distance.
  Amazon link | Free text at Internet Archive
• Ron Rhodes – The Complete Guide to Christian Denominations
  Reference to denominational history (Puritans → Congregationalists → Unitarian Universalists).
  Amazon link
• Edwin H. Friedman
   
  • Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church and Synagogue
    Amazon link
•  
  • A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix
    Amazon link
•  
• R. Robert Creech – Family Systems and Congregational Life: A Leadership Model for Church Leaders
  (Connected to the “Jesus as the most differentiated person” discussion, recurring theme across early episodes.)
  Publisher link
• Peter Scazzero – Emotionally Healthy Spirituality
  Referenced in discussion of love as the true mark of maturity.
  Amazon link

Support the show

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

Dysfunction in churches stems from humanity's fallen nature and our propensity to break relationships with God, ourselves, and others. The gospel provides the only pathway to healing these fractured relationships and restoring healthy church systems.

• Most congregations function like extended families, making family systems theory applicable to church settings
• Family systems theory observes human behavior but doesn't provide solutions—only the gospel can truly heal
• The Trinity models perfect differentiated relationships—distinct persons in complete harmony
• Dysfunction originates in the fall and manifests in fear, guilt, and shame
• Satan uses a "pincer move"—suggesting God isn't trustworthy, then condemning us when we act independently
• Jesus demonstrates perfect differentiation by maintaining his identity while connecting with others
• Over-functioning (controlling) and under-functioning (abdicating responsibility) create unhealthy church dynamics
• The gospel restores our relationship with God, which then flows outward to heal relationships with ourselves and others

We invite you to join us for this season as we unpack family systems theory and its application to church renewal. Share this episode with friends and subscribe for more insights on building healthy church relationships.

Episode 1 Resources

Books & Authors

• Murray Bowen – Family Systems Theory (originating model of relational systems).
• Edwin H. Friedman – Generation to Generation: Family Process in Church and Synagogue (applies Bowen’s observations to congregations)
  (Wikipedia, Guilford Press)
• Edwin H. Friedman – A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix
  (Amazon)
• Michael Reeves – Delighting in the Trinity (helps articulate relational Trinitarian foundations for differentiation)
  (Ligonier Ministries)
• Jack Shitama – If You Met My Family, You’d Understand (family systems insights and personal story)
  (Amazon)

Articles / Papers

• Robert Creech – Jesus and Differentiation of Self  (Amazon).

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Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube.
If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.

Only 24 hours left until season 4 of the church renewal podcast goes live. If you are  ready to discover keys that will unlock patterns of communications disfunction relationship challenges mistrust apathy and reactivity join us tomorrow as we jump with both feet into the deep end. We are going to unpack family systems theory, and connect it to the theology and practical ministry application for you and your(dysfunctional) church.

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

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In edition to unpacking family systems theory, we are going to talk with several guests who have extensive personal and professional knowledge and experience working with leaders and churches to identify and correct church trauma. Heres a sneak peek at a few of our guests.

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Is a discussion on family systems theory more than just a psychological exercise? Absolutely! This season we're gonna unpack concepts of differentiation triangulation, scapegoating, and more from both the sociological and the theological perspective to help you be able to identify and move towards solutions in your personal leadership and in your church body.

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The Church Renewal Podcast is about to drop Season 4 on September 4th. 

This season Jeremy and Matt will unpack the many ways that Family Systems Theory is beneficial to diagnosing church and church leadership dysfunction and congregational pain. 

Save the date and join us for what we are sure will be an eye opening and tremendously useful season. 

Support the show

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If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

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Pastor Chris Bowen opens up about his journey stepping into a church marked by what he calls "congregational trauma" and how pastoral coaching through Flourish became a lifeline for both him and his congregation. When mentors advised him to find support as he began at New Covenant Fellowship, Chris sought someone who understood his denominational context and could provide both personal care and strategic guidance.

The conversation reveals the profound value of having a trusted partner when navigating church renewal. "Matt was someone where I could speak in confidence about ministry challenges, life challenges, personal challenges," Chris explains, highlighting how coaching created a safe space before he had built complete trust with his session. This pastoral dimension of coaching—where Matt functioned as "a shepherd to the shepherd"—emerges as perhaps the most significant benefit.

Beyond personal support, Matt introduced frameworks like the church life cycle model, facilitated session discussions about strategic priorities, and helped process difficult decisions necessary for moving forward. The results after two years speak volumes: improved metrics across both external measures like attendance and internal health indicators like staff culture and elder alignment.

What stands out most is Chris's genuine surprise at how well the renewal journey has progressed, rediscovering the joy of ministry in what he calls a "ministry sweet spot." His candid advice to other pastors considering similar transitions cuts to the heart of effective leadership: "Don't believe the lie that you're stronger than you really are." For church leaders walking through challenging seasons, this conversation offers both practical wisdom and renewed hope for the journey ahead.

Support the show

Please connect with us at our Website, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube.
If you'd like to support the work of Flourish Coaching you can click here to make a donation.

Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.