Tom Uren and Patrick Gray talk about how the US is planning to take the gloves off in cyberspace and conduct much more aggressive offensive cyber operations. US responses to cyber espionage have not been very aggressive to date, but Tom is not convinced that cyber punches are required, so much as blows that really hurt.

The pair also discuss TeleMessage, the Signal clone the Trump cabinet has been using. The app managed to sidestep certification and assessment processes and ended up being used by various agencies in the US government. And the White House. It’s a mystery how this happened.

This episode is also available on Youtube.