Earlier this year, Evan Hughes conducted a survey to marketers, trying to find some insight into what they're really facing right now.

Well, the results are in, and the answers to one of the questions gave us some serious pause: "What would most likely cause you to change agencies?"

 33% of respondents said they can't clearly explain their impact internally.  

For obvious reasons, we wanted to spend some time with these answers and break down the potential reasons why marketers feel this way.

Matt Sciannella took that time to dive into the potential whys behind this answer in the first episode of his new series: B2B Reality Check.  

Topics Covered

Influencer marketing as a modern demand lever in a “feeds are flooded” environment (credibility + distribution vs polish)

Building an influencer program as a repeatable system (not one-off posts)

Aligning influencer strategy to GTM motion: PLG + sales-led dual motion, fast sales cycle, and audience behavior on LinkedIn

Talent sourcing: internal creators, power users, frontline thought leaders, executive narrative voices, and “entertainer/evangelism” creators

Using influencer content as paid social creative (thought leadership ads) and deciding what to amplify

Program mechanics: 3-month trials, post cadence, onboarding, briefs, review cycles, and relationship management

Incentives tied to outcomes (PLG signup bonus, ARR percentage via UTM)

Measurement options: cost per signup, CPM/efficient reach, ABM-style reach goals, qualitative signals, and attribution constraints

Quality control: “smell test” for AI slop, engagement pods, and meaningful comment engagement

Activation workflow: first-hour engagement, “let it cook” windows, reporting, UTM updates for paid vs organic, and distribution trade-offs

Questions This Video Helps Answer

How do you structure B2B influencer marketing so it drives demand (not just awareness) without becoming random acts of promotion?

How should a B2B team align influencer strategy to GTM motion (PLG vs sales-led) and measurement constraints?

What’s the best place to start: internal creators, power users, or external influencers?

How do you choose influencer “types” (executive narrative, frontline education, entertainment/evangelism) based on goals?

What contract length and cadence reduces the risk of declaring influencer “doesn’t work” too early?

How do you turn influencer posts into paid social assets using thought leadership ads?

What’s a practical incentive structure for creators tied to signups and revenue (UTM-based)?

How do you spot inflated performance from AI-generated engagement or engagement pods?

When should you promote a post, and when should you leave it organic?

How can you evaluate influencer impact using CPM, reach, signups, and qualitative sales signals?

Key Takeaways

If you want results, avoid one-off influencer posts; start with at least a 3-month trial so performance can compound and audience association can form.

In crowded feeds, influencer works because it combines trust with distribution; paid amplification (thought leadership ads) can make “small” creators valuable when the story is strong.

Start sourcing from internal creators and product power users first; they’re cheaper, more credible on use cases, and their content can be promoted to the right audience.

Make onboarding and relationships non-negotiable: demo the product, ideate together, and set a clear review cycle so feedback doesn’t show up only as late-stage Google Doc edits.

Tie incentives to business outcomes and effort: bonus for PLG signups over the contract window, percentage of ARR from UTM-driven revenue, and paid boosts for high-performing posts (which also benefits the creator’s audience growth).

Don’t boost everything: let posts run organically first, then selectively promote what’s likely to work in paid (not every organic winner is a paid winner).

Quality control requires human judgment: scan comments and engagement patterns for meaningful conversation vs AI slop, pods, or gamed metrics.

SummaryChris Ford, Lead Designer at Refine Labs, shares how creative professionals can harness AI without compromising artistic integrity. Speaking to an audience navigating the rapid shift toward automation in design and marketing, Ford clarifies that tools like Midjourney and Runway are accelerators—not replacements—for real strategic thinking. His journey from teen coder to strategic designer reveals the mindset shift creatives must adopt to thrive in a performance-driven, AI-infused landscape. This episode demystifies AI's impact on modern B2B marketing workflows while reinforcing the value of human empathy, nuance, and storytelling.

Topics Covered

• AI as a creative partner in modern B2B marketing

• Creative strategy in a performance-first demand gen environment

• How Refine Labs designers adapt AI for speed, not shortcuts

• Brand storytelling vs. AI output

• Creative autonomy and process efficiency

• Free and paid AI tools for image and motion design

• Navigating the psychological shift toward automation

• The future of human creativity in AI-saturated workflows

• Strategic experimentation and creative boundaries

Questions This Video Helps Answer

• How are B2B creatives using AI tools like Midjourney and Runway today?

• What’s the right mindset for using AI in design without losing creative control?

• Where should human creativity draw the line with AI-generated content?

• What tools help accelerate creative workflows without sacrificing originality?

• How should creatives adapt to AI without fearing job replacement?

• What is the future of creative work in AI-augmented environments?

Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities Mentioned

• Graphic Designer

• Creative Strategist

• Performance Marketer

• Content Creator

• Visual Designer

• Copywriter

• Marketing Technologist

• Brand Strategist

• AI Prompt Engineer (implied role)

Key Takeaways

• AI accelerates design iteration but doesn’t replace creative judgment or empathy.

• Tools like Midjourney, Runway, and ChatGPT help visualize concepts quickly and reduce time spent on repetitive tasks.

• Refine Labs designers use AI to test ideas faster, not to generate final creative without human input.

• The "line" of AI involvement depends on complexity, originality, and personal creative ethics.

• Being strategic with experimentation ensures AI enhances—rather than dilutes—brand quality.

• The coming shift isn’t AI vs. humans, but AI with humans who adapt and lead.

FAQ
What AI tools does Chris Ford use most in his creative workflow?
Midjourney for image generation, Runway for animation, and ChatGPT for ideation and refining language.

Is AI replacing creative jobs in B2B marketing?
Not directly. Ford explains that AI requires human oversight and strategy, making creatives who adapt more valuable—not obsolete.

How does Refine Labs integrate AI in its design process?
By using AI to accelerate idea generation and reduce manual work, while keeping creative direction and brand storytelling in human hands.

Are there free AI tools creatives can explore?
Yes. Midjourney offers a limited free trial, and tools like Google Gemini are free. Search “AI tools” with “free” in quotes to discover more.

What’s the biggest creative challenge when using AI?
Time lost on prompt engineering and editing outputs. Not all tools produce high-quality or precise results, so human refinement is still essential.

Quoted Highlights
“AI gives me the options, but my creativity gives me the direction.” – Chris Ford [00:09:11]
“It’s not just pixels—it’s purpose.” – Chris Ford [00:22:30]
“I never saw AI as a threat. I saw it as a collaborative tool.” – Chris Ford [00:05:12]
“Strategic thinking without AI is still my foundation. These tools just optimize my workflow.” – Chris Ford [00:24:10]
“If you want AI-created results, you need to be okay with AI-level quality.” – Chris Ford [00:21:02]

Topics Covered

AI efficiency vs. AI opportunity in modern B2B orgs

Use cases across Claude, Gemini, Copilot, and ChatGPT

Claude for Excel outperforming native plugins

AI-powered brand visibility audits (AIO, GEO)

Building MVPs from product demos using Gemini

Automating reporting and funnel analysis with ChatGPT & Gemini

Custom GPTs for keyword analysis and lead quality reviewsAI system design in regulated or high-security environments

Framework-based AI prompting for repeatable results

Testing rigor and prompt engineering for trustable AI output

Questions This Video Helps Answer

How can B2B marketing teams use AI to save time and create net-new strategic opportunities?

What LLM (Claude, ChatGPT, Gemini, Copilot) is best for specific tasks like Excel, brand analysis, or creative reviews?

How do I know if AI-generated reporting is accurate enough to trust?

What’s a good prompt structure to consistently get usable output from ChatGPT or Gemini?

How can I explain AIO (AI Optimization) visibility and results to executives?

Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities Mentioned

Marketing teams

Sales teams

Finance and accounting departments

HR and admin functions

Demand gen strategists

Operations and supply chain leaders

AI consultants and systems integrators

Creative and copywriting leads

IT and cybersecurity teams

Executive and portfolio leadership

Key Takeaways

AI tools should be evaluated by outcome, not branding—Claude may outperform Copilot in Excel.

Reframing workflows to be AI-native rather than AI-assisted unlocks transformational gains.

Demand marketers can use LLMs to streamline reporting, extract funnel insights, and improve creative alignment.

Framework-driven prompting (like SPEC) helps generate consistent, high-trust outputs.

Custom AI workflows (e.g., for lead scoring, brand checks) can scale across clients and teams without deep coding.

Generative AI is a tool for internal enablement, not just public content.

Erik Sena, Copy Manager at Refine Labs, shares his creative journey and how AI is reshaping the modern copywriter’s toolkit. This honest and insightful discussion explores the human side of marketing innovation and the future of creative work.Speakers and RolesErik Sena – Copy Manager at Refine Labs; leads brand voice efforts internally and across client accounts, overseeing multiple writers and creative outputSteph Crugnola– Host of Stacking Growth: Called to ActionEvan Hughes – Co-host; provides perspective on marketing leadership and AI pressuresTopics CoveredEric’s path into copywriting via creativity and pop culture inspirationEarly perceptions and hesitations around AI in creative rolesEvolving use of ChatGPT for creative brainstorming and brand alignmentInternal and external pressures driving AI adoption in marketingHuman vs AI: identifying what remains uniquely human in creative outputUsing tools like creative scorecards to evaluate tone and brand matchPredictions for a more human-centric creative futurePersonal growth and reflection in a rapidly changing industryQuestions This Video Helps AnswerHow can marketing creatives embrace AI without losing their voice?What are effective ways to use ChatGPT in a brand copywriting role?How do you balance human creativity with AI-enhanced workflows?What does it mean to stay human-first in a tech-heavy marketing world?What trends are shaping the future of creativity in marketing?Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCopywriter, Copy Manager, Creative Director, Designer, Art Director, Screenwriter, Marketing Leader, AI Prompt Engineer (implied use), Content Reviewer, Stakeholder (internal and client-side)Key TakeawaysAI is best used as a tool for efficiency and ideation, not replacementHuman creativity, emotion, and intuition remain irreplaceable in brand messagingPressure to adopt AI stems from both time constraints and industry evolutionCreative scorecards using AI can help align content with brand toneStaying proactive and adaptable is essential in modern marketing careersTimestamps[0:01:01] Eric shares his early love for storytelling and creativity[0:02:14] Inspiration from Mad Men leads to a career pivot into advertising[0:04:33] Eric’s first real encounter with AI during the MidJourney/DALL-E rise[0:06:25] Why pressure (internal and external) pushed him to embrace AI[0:07:29] Tools used: ChatGPT as a creative partner and editing assistant[0:11:30] Use case: Creative scorecard to measure brand tone alignment[0:14:28] Coping with imposter syndrome and AI fear as a creative[0:19:42] Reflections on being a “multi-hyphenate” creative[0:23:03] Prediction: A return to human-first creativity in the next era[0:25:17] Career advice for new marketers: be proactive, think 10 steps aheadFrameworks and Concepts MentionedCreative Scorecard (internal framework to assess brand tone fit)Human-first marketing (ethos vs automation-heavy workflows)Multi-hyphenate creatives (embracing multiple creative roles)"Iron sharpens iron" mindset in creative improvementAI as thought partner vs AI as creator

This conversation explores how Refine Labs drives measurable B2B SaaS growth through demand strategy, paid media optimization, creative execution, and AI-era marketing fundamentals. Listeners gain a clear understanding of how modern demand generation, positioning, and strategic rigor create predictable pipeline and revenue outcomes.

Topics Covered

• Refine Labs’ evolution, revenue milestones, and agency repositioning

• Strategic focus on digital strategy, paid media, creative production, and demand generation

• The Brand–Demand–Expand model for allocating budget and improving pipeline

• Data-driven onboarding: audits across paid media, creative, ICP, website, attribution, content, and journey friction

• Demand creation vs. demand capture and how to rebalance budgets

• Founder-led marketing vs. diversified marketing engines

• Retention, upsell, and cross-sell as key growth levers in enterprise

• AI’s real impact on marketing, strategy, measurement, and competitive advantage

• Website clarity, LLM discoverability, and digital PR for AI-era visibility

• Authenticity, trust, and human content in an AI-saturated world

Questions This Video Helps Answer

• How can B2B SaaS companies increase qualified pipeline by 50% or more within 8 months?

• What should a modern B2B demand generation agency actually deliver?

• How do you balance budget across brand, demand creation, and demand capture?

• How should companies approach self-reported attribution at scale?

• What’s the role of founder-led marketing now that organic reach is declining?

• When should companies prioritize retention and expansion over new acquisition?

• How is AI affecting content, measurement, and go-to-market strategy?

• How do B2B brands optimize for ChatGPT, Perplexity, Grok, and Google AI overviews?

Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities Mentioned

• CEO

• COO

• Chief Operating Officer (previous role)

• Founder

• Account Management

• Customer Success

• Paid Media Manager

• Marketing Leader

• CFO

• Sales

• Post-sale functions

• Digital marketing teams

• Creative and content teams

Key Takeaways

• Refine Labs’ strongest levers remain digital strategy, paid advertising, and creative execution—these consistently deliver measurable pipeline gains.

• Companies often overweight short-term demand capture; rebalancing budgets toward brand and demand creation improves long-term efficiency.

• A rigorous onboarding process—auditing ICP, messaging, media accounts, website friction, attribution, content, and revenue history—is essential for custom growth strategy.

• Founder-led marketing is an asset but not a sustainable long-term strategy; brands need diversified engines not tied to one person.

• Enterprise companies can drive massive growth from retention, upsell, and cross-sell, often surpassing net-new acquisition impact.

• Authenticity, human insight, and trust are becoming more valuable as AI makes generic content ubiquitous.

• LLM visibility depends on consistent positioning, clear messaging, and strong third-party brand mentions—not hacks or shortcuts.

• AI should be used only where it improves outcomes: better insights, faster execution, smarter experiments, and strategic amplification.

Frameworks and Concepts Mentioned

• Brand–Demand–Expand model

• Demand creation vs. demand capture

• Closed-won / closed-lost analysis

• Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) validation

• Self-reported attribution

• Share of search

• Digital buying journey audit

• Retention / upsell / cross-sell levers

• AI-powered benchmarking and structured experimentation

This roundtable explores how B2B teams can use modern demand strategies, B2C channels, and incrementality testing to prove true ad impact in 2026. The conversation highlights omni-channel expansion beyond LinkedIn, data-driven measurement, and practical ways to validate lift across pipeline and revenue.

Speakers and Roles
Matt Sciannella – Host and practitioner running paid media for multiple B2B clients; shares real client use cases, lift results, and practical frameworks for measurement and experimentation.
Keith Putnam-Delaney – CEO of Primer; former Dropbox growth leader; expert in B2B expansion into B2C channels, audience targeting, mobile–desktop measurement problems, match rates, and lift testing.
Authority: Both speakers bring hands-on experience running B2B paid programs at scale and deep insight into attribution limits, ABM constraints, and cross-channel growth strategies.

Topics Covered

• Rising costs and saturation in traditional B2B channels (LinkedIn, Google).

• Why B2B brands must expand into B2C channels like Meta, YouTube, Reddit, TikTok.

• Mobile vs. desktop measurement gaps and cross-device limitations.

• Signal loss, attribution decay, and the need for server-side events.

• How to validate true impact using lift tests and incrementality.

• CPM efficiency comparisons across channels.

• ABM unbundling and alternatives to large, monolithic ABM platforms.

• Using holdout groups, geographic lift, and omnichannel testing strategies.

• Real client examples showing lift in inbound, share of search, and revenue.

• How audience targeting tools unlock TAM expansion outside LinkedIn.

Questions This Video Helps Answer

• How do B2B marketers prove real ad impact without relying on last-touch attribution?

• How can brands expand beyond LinkedIn and still target ICP buyers effectively?

• What causes demand generation inefficiency and how do you fix it?

• How do mobile–desktop and cross-device gaps distort performance data?

• What is the right way to design lift tests or incrementality experiments?

• How can small TAM companies still scale using B2C channels?

• What alternative ABM workflows exist beyond large enterprise platforms?

• How should B2B teams interpret rising CPMs and shrinking reach?

Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities Mentioned

• B2B growth marketing

• Growth teams

• Sales operations managers

• Revenue operations roles

• VPs of Marketing

• Regional sales directors

• Medical device surgeons (ICP example)

• Marketing, sales, finance

• Infosec teams

• PLG teams

• Field marketing

• Outbound sales teams

Key Takeaways

• Attribution alone cannot prove channel value; lift tests reveal true incrementality.

• B2B audiences exist far beyond LinkedIn, and CPM efficiency is often dramatically higher on Meta, Reddit, and YouTube.

• Mobile-heavy consumption breaks MTA models; server-side signals and conversion APIs are now essential.

• ABM can be unbundled using smaller, more flexible tools and alternative data sources.

• Expanding TAM and using audience targeting unlocks more reach and stronger pipeline outcomes.

• Share of search is a powerful leading indicator for demand creation impact.

• Omnichannel experimentation paired with structured test design improves confidence with finance and executive teams.

Frameworks and Concepts Mentioned

• Incrementality testing

• Holdout groups

• Channel-based lift tests

• Geographic lift tests

• Account list split testing

• Leading vs. lagging indicators

• Share of search analysis

• Server-side conversion APIs (CAPI)

• Cross-device measurement

• Audience match rates

• ABM unbundling

• CPM efficiency analysis

0. Summary
This episode explores how Refine Labs lead designer Monica Beesting navigates creativity, design workflows, and authenticity in the AI era. Listeners gain practical insight into how human-driven creative direction remains essential even as AI tools expand what’s possible in modern marketing.

1. Speakers and Roles
Steph Cragnola – Host; marketer guiding conversations about growth, change, and modern marketing challenges.
Evan Hughes – Host; marketing practitioner offering perspective on industry shifts and AI adoption.
Monica Beesting – Lead Designer at Refine Labs; former museum designer turned marketing creative who brings deep experience in visual storytelling, brand identity, and conceptual design.

2. Topics Covered

• How designers adapt to the rise of AI in marketing

• Using AI to extend creative capability without losing brand voice

• Human art direction vs. AI-generated imagery

• Ethical boundaries and intellectual property considerations

• Collaboration patterns inside modern marketing teams

• Emotional and professional pressures surrounding new creative tools

• Maintaining quality and authenticity in saturated content environments

• Individual creative processes and where AI fits within them

3. Questions This Video Helps Answer

• How should creatives use AI without losing their unique voice or standards?

• What does “art direction” look like in an AI-driven workflow?

• How can brands maintain authenticity when AI-generated content becomes widespread?

• What are healthy boundaries for using AI in creative work?

• How should marketing teams think about tool adoption and individual creative processes?

• How do you balance efficiency with originality in a crowded content landscape?

4. Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities Mentioned

• Designer / Lead Designer

• Art Director

• Creative Team / Graphic Designers

• Marketers

• Interns (museum, marketing)

• Developers / WordPress implementation

• Client-facing creative roles

5. Key Takeaways

• AI expands creative possibility but still requires strong human direction to produce cohesive, meaningful visuals.

• Each designer must identify their personal boundaries and ethical comfort level with AI tools.

• Creative tools should reduce friction, not introduce complexity—adoption should be purposeful, not reactive.

• Internal collaboration, especially inside design teams, remains crucial for troubleshooting and skill building.

• Unique, human-driven storytelling continues to differentiate brands as AI-generated content becomes ubiquitous.

• Designers can embrace AI as a way to bring imaginative concepts to life—not as a replacement for original thinking.

6. Frameworks and Concepts Mentioned

• Art direction for AI-generated images

• Image curation vs. image creation

• Conceptual storytelling

• Workflow efficiency vs. creative integrity

• Ethical use of AI and avoiding IP infringement

Refine Labs CEO Megan Bowen joins Evan Kirstel for a deep-dive into how B2B marketing must evolve for the AI era. The conversation covers modern go-to-market models, buyer-centric strategies, and how Refine Labs helps companies drive measurable pipeline growth through data, experimentation, and cultural excellence.1. Speakers and RolesMegan Bowen – CEO of Refine Labs. With 20 years in B2B SaaS at companies like Zocdoc, Grubhub, and WeWork, she brings deep expertise in modernizing go-to-market strategy and redefining marketing measurement.Evan Kirstel– Host and interviewer. Brings over 30 years in tech sales and marketing leadership.2. Topics CoveredThe evolution of B2B buying and selling from the analog to the AI era.Why traditional MQL-based marketing is outdated.The “Brand, Demand, Expand” model for full-funnel growth.Refine Labs’ AI strategy and benchmarking methodology.Alignment between sales and marketing in 2025.The future of content creation and human creativity in an AI-driven market.Building company culture around people-first principles.The Refine Labs Vault: democratizing growth frameworks and insights.3. Questions This Video Helps AnswerWhat’s fundamentally broken about traditional B2B marketing models?Why is the MQL metric no longer a reliable measure of success?How should marketers adapt to buyer-led decision-making?What is the “Brand, Demand, Expand” framework, and how does it work?How is AI transforming marketing operations and customer acquisition?How can companies build a people-first culture that drives performance?4. Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCEO, CMO, VP of Marketing, Sales teams, Customer Success and Account Management, Marketing Operations and Creative roles, Content strategists and paid media managers5. Frameworks and Concepts MentionedBrand, Demand, Expand (three-pillar GTM framework)Ideal Customer Profile (ICP)Buyer-centric marketingAI-powered benchmarksRevenue funnel analysis and pipeline conversion optimization6. Related ResourcesRefine Labs: https://www.refinelabs.comThe Vault: access to Refine Labs frameworks and community.HubSpot (mentioned as part of inbound marketing evolution)Grandin Holdings (Refine Labs investment partner)

Megan Bowen, CEO of Refine Labs, shares the core fundamentals behind modern B2B growth. She explains how buyer behavior has shifted, how marketing must evolve, and what it takes to build a profitable, scalable go-to-market engine rooted in focus, data, and customer understanding.Topics CoveredEvolution of B2B buying: analog → website → dark social → AI era.Aligning go-to-market around buyer behavior.Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) definition and validation.Strategic narrative development using Andy Raskin’s framework.The “Brand, Demand, Expand” model for growth.Simplifying measurement: attribution, share of search, and split-the-funnel analysis.Sales and marketing alignment through shared goals and accountability.Building efficient, profitable revenue systems.Questions This Video Helps AnswerHow has B2B buying behavior evolved and what does it mean for marketers?What are the most important elements of a modern go-to-market strategy?How can you define and operationalize an ideal customer profile?What is a strategic narrative and how does it drive company alignment?How should marketing and sales collaborate to achieve efficient growth?What metrics actually matter when measuring pipeline performance?Jobs, Roles, and Responsibilities MentionedCEO, CMO, VP of Sales, RevOps Lead, Account Manager, Customer Success Manager, Marketing Manager, BDR/SDR, Product Manager, Private Equity Partner, Founder.Key TakeawaysFocus beats complexity: simplify your go-to-market strategy around what works.The best companies deeply understand buyer behavior shifts and adapt early.A validated, data-driven ICP ensures efficiency and profitable growth.A strong strategic narrative, backed by leadership, drives internal and external alignment.Growth requires balanced investment in brand, demand, and expansion.Align marketing, sales, and finance goals to create predictable, sustainable performance.Measurement should prioritize insight and decision-making over vanity metrics.