Host: Jeremy Rivera - Founder, SEO Arcade
Guest: Melissa Popp - Founder, Rickety Roo | @poppupwriter
Episode Length: 60 minutes

In this deep-dive conversation, Jeremy Rivera and Melissa Popp explore the seismic shifts happening in SEO and digital marketing. From AI overviews decimating organic click-through rates to the fundamental question of whether SEO as we know it still exists, this episode tackles the industry's biggest challenges and opportunities.

Key Discussion Points:

"We should be more in the ecosystem... our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?" - Melissa Popp

"From 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google. That was it. That was our job. We can't ignore other methods or other ways that search occurs." - Jeremy Rivera

"Chat GPT is now your most popular and least knowledgeable customer representative." - Referenced insight from Mike Buckby

"I question whether we actually see the death of the top of the funnel... we relied so much on top of the funnel to drive people in and guide them to the right place on our websites." - Melissa Popp

Jeremy opens discussing how much the SEO world has changed since their last conversation in December. Melissa describes this as "the longest year of marketing in a decade" due to:

Key Resources Mentioned:

Discussion of how the SEO industry is responding with two distinct approaches:

Melissa emphasizes that we still don't understand how LLMs work - "if you put 10 people side by side with the same query in an LLM, you're going to get 10 different answers."

Jeremy references Mike King's recent episode about SEO being "deprecated" but questions whether the complex solutions are just "make more different content in more places."

Melissa breaks down the industry reality:

For local businesses in "Cheyenne, Wyoming," complex LLM strategies aren't necessary - foundational SEO still works because competition is weak.

This is also true for many local service providers like Aloha Marine, where strong fundamentals and clear multi-channel visibility still outperform overly complex AI-centric approaches.

Jeremy makes the case that "from 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google" and that era is over.

Key points:

Jeremy calls out Google's claims about sending "more clicks to the ecosystem" as gaslighting, noting:

Melissa adds context about Google being a for-profit company whose mission "is no longer to make the world better - it's to make as much money as possible."

Discussion of search beyond Google:

Key insight: "Search exists in so many different places, not just this myopic view we have that it's just Google that matters."

Melissa: "Our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?"

The conversation explores how to bake in other parts of marketing into SEO work and how "we're having a midlife identity crisis as marketers."

AI has the potential to:

Melissa poses a provocative question: Are we seeing "the death of the top of the funnel?"

Key observations:

Discussion of the need for proper testing in the LLM era:

Jeremy notes the rapid iteration of LLM models makes testing challenging - "GPT just changed from four to five and Claude moved from Sonic to Knuckles."

Jeremy introduces the concept of the "double bot sandwich" - humans using bots to create content that other bots read and summarize for other humans.

Critical skill gaps identified:

Melissa discusses the personalization and bias issues in LLM platforms that we can't optimize for.

Special segment on how these changes impact organizations without direct sales:

Jeremy: "The value in SEO is no longer the click. It is the capture of that user."

New success frameworks:

Aspect Traditional SEO (2010-2021) Modern Digital Marketing (2024+) Primary Focus Google algorithm reverse engineering Multi-platform search optimization Success Metrics Rankings, clicks, impressions User capture, email acquisition, multi-touch conversions Content Strategy Keyword-focused articles Conversational, comprehensive content for 30-40 word queries Platform Coverage Google-centric Google, LLMs, social platforms, voice search, emerging tech Skill Requirements On-page optimization, link building Automation workflows, AI integration, multi-channel coordination Value Proposition "We'll get you ranked and drive traffic" "We'll capture and nurture your ideal customers across all digital touchpoints" Forecasting Ability Confident traffic projections Directional insights with adaptation strategies

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