In this episode of the Unscripted SEO podcast, host Jeremy Rivera interviews Katie Wagner, President & CEO of KWSM Digital Marketing Agency. They dive deep into the evolution of SEO, the importance of brand journalism, and how businesses can adapt to the changing digital landscape including AI overviews and LLM-based search.

Katie Wagner

Connect with Katie:

Jeremy Rivera

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"Brand journalism has never been more important. We really lean into that at the agency." - Katie Wagner

"I don't really have ego in those numbers as long as a percentage of it is actually turning into customers for my clients." - Katie Wagner

"Every brand has to be a content creator and they have to be journalists of their own brand." - Katie Wagner

"Gone are the days when one tactic in a vacuum is going to generate all the business you need." - Katie Wagner

Host: Jeremy Rivera
Guest: Virginia Elder, Owner of Podcast Abundance
Topic: The evolution of SEO, podcast marketing strategy, and cross-channel content creation

In this in-depth conversation, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Virginia Elder, owner of Podcast Abundance, to explore how podcasting fits into modern SEO and content marketing strategies. They discuss the evolution from traditional website-focused SEO to a holistic, cross-channel approach that leverages podcasting, social media, and authentic human connections to build brand authority and drive business growth.

Virginia shares her journey from financial audit work to becoming a podcast production specialist for financial professionals, while Jeremy explains why genuine human conversations can't be replicated by AI and how podcasting creates valuable content ecosystems for businesses.

Virginia Elder is the owner of Podcast Abundance, a podcast production agency specializing in financial professionals. Her background includes accounting and information management, with experience in sales tax auditing and contract management at construction companies.

Virginia's journey into podcasting began during her personal financial transformation, where she discovered the power of financial education podcasts. After paying off $80,000 in debt in three and a half years through strategies learned from podcasts, she attended a financial content creation conference where she unexpectedly launched two podcast shows for financial advisors.

Her low-cost, excellent tools approach and ability to bring out the personality in naturally awkward professionals has made her a sought-after producer in the financial services space.

Virginia Elder:

"People are really looking for that personal connection these days. And whether that's through your face or through your voice, video versus audio. If they can hear you, they immediately connect more deeply with you than if you're just a guy on LinkedIn or a girl on LinkedIn."

Jeremy Rivera:

"The personal chemistry with you, the conversation, the interaction of my experience with your experience as we thread the needle of our shared topics is something that, as I said in my interview with Jason Barnard of KaliCube, like it's information gain."

Virginia Elder on podcast statistics:

"So for you to get to stand out, just think like think SEO, right? Like what if you were only one of 500,000 websites out there? Holy cow, you would be jumping up and down celebrating that you are one of those websites."

Jeremy Rivera on AI vs. human content:

"Mass producing bulk amounts of AI generated content is not a good content marketing strategy long term. Yes, there are content marketing browsers who show their gains, but then they don't show the huge dip as Google detects that there's no brand entity behind it."

Virginia Elder
Podcast Abundance
Website: podcastabundance.com
Specialization: Podcast production for financial professionals

Jeremy Rivera
Unscripted SEO Podcast
Cookeville SEO Specialist
Website: unscriptedseo.com

This episode demonstrates why authentic human conversations create irreplaceable value in an AI-dominated content landscape. The discussion provides actionable strategies for business owners looking to leverage podcasting as part of their broader digital marketing and SEO efforts.

Episode: Unscripted SEO Podcast
Host: Jeremy Rivera - Unscripted Podcast
Guest: Chris Turnbull, Founder of Catalyst Marketing
Duration: ~45 minutes

Join Jeremy Rivera as he sits down with Chris Turnbull, founder of Catalyst Marketing, for an unfiltered discussion about how SEO has evolved over the past 13 years. From Google's monopolistic behavior to the rise of AI overviews, this conversation explores why local SEO has remained surprisingly stable while broader search continues to fragment across multiple platforms.

Chris shares insights from his journey from apprentice SEO to agency founder, specializing in performance marketing for local service businesses. The duo dives deep into the breakdown of traditional content marketing, the rise of user-generated content, and why Reddit posts now carry the same weight as backlinks from 2015.

Jeremy Rivera:

"It feels like we have been demoted to beta testers as the public... I remember search results from 2014 that were so scandalous they got a public apology. Now we have an age of lawlessness."

"Getting a huge upvoted post on Reddit now carries as much weight and value as getting a huge backlink did in 2015."

Chris Turnbull:

"What worked in SEO five years ago is still working now for local high-intent terms... It's dragging people who just focused on SEO into the wider marketing sphere."

"Is there a post-website world? These are big, almost existential questions when it comes to search."

Chris Turnbull has 13+ years of SEO experience, working from small agencies to global accounts and in-house roles with major insurance firms. Since 2021, he's focused exclusively on local service businesses through Catalyst Marketing. He's recently launched a school community for local business owners covering marketing, growth, and business development.

Jeremy Rivera is founder of SEO Arcade and co-host of the Unscripted SEO Podcast. With experience spanning from Raven Tools to local service SEO, he now operates a white label podcasting service that converts expert interviews into content and link-building opportunities for agencies.

Like what you heard? Leave a review and subscribe for more unscripted conversations with industry experts.

Jeremy Rivera interviews Jason Barnard of KaliCube about entity optimization, AI assistive engines, and the future of search. This conversation explores practical strategies for controlling your digital footprint and optimizing for modern search systems.

Explore the COMPLETE Episode, and read the deep dive on SEO Arcade for further topical exploration in the same field of entities, Ai and SEO.

Jason Barnard is the founder of KaliCube and a pioneer in entity optimization. He started in 1998 with a children's website that grew to one billion page views in 2007, competing with BBC and PBS. In 2012, he successfully changed Google's perception of him from "cartoon blue dog" to "respected entrepreneur and digital marketer" - becoming one of the first to master entity transformation.

️ Similar Deep Dives: If you enjoyed this conversation about entities and AI, check out our interview with Mark Williams Cook on technical SEO innovations where we explored how machine learning is reshaping technical optimization strategies.

️ Foundational Concepts: For more on search evolution and brand building, don't miss our conversation with Rand Fishkin on the future of SEO. Rand's perspective on sustainable organic growth strategies pairs perfectly with Jason's entity optimization methodology.

"Which part of the web do you control? Your own digital footprint." - Jason Barnard

"Truth becomes reality due to people repeating it. What you realize is that people sometimes just repeat what they've heard and they don't actually have an opinion." - Jason Barnard

"If you can organize your data source to be logical (because machines are logical), to be meaningful and valuable, and make sure you're connecting out to the proof that what you're saying is true... then you're onto a winning mindset." - Jason Barnard

"Understandability is the foundation. If you don't have that, you're not even in the game." - Jason Barnard

Jeremy Rivera makes the case for bringing back the "webmaster" title, arguing it better describes modern SEO work: integrating signals across email, organic search, entity creation, and website connections to change perception and drive traffic.

Jason's Journey: Starting in 2012, Jason realized it wasn't just his website but his entire digital footprint that needed optimization. While traditional SEO focused purely on websites, he was already optimizing across Facebook, review sites, articles, and social media profiles.

The breakthrough came in 2015 with Hummingbird and Google's shift from strings to things, leading to the creation of KaliCube.

The conversation reveals how Google representatives like John Mueller and Gary Illyes function as "public relations people" who carefully word statements to avoid giving away ranking factors.

Key insight: When they say "clicks don't change rankings directly," the word "directly" is their escape clause.

Jason's interviews with Bing team leads (Fabrice Canal, Nathan Chalmers, Frederick D'Bou) revealed more transparent information since "they have nothing to lose." This led to early insights about the whole page algorithm, later confirmed by Google as the Magic Mixer.

Core Concept: All modern search systems use three interconnected technologies:

Critical insight: All three feed from the same data source - the web. Since you control your digital footprint, you can influence all three systems simultaneously.

Timeline expectations:

Discussion of the medic update reveals how "distance from seed sites" became a crucial ranking factor. Chiropractors with superior content couldn't compete with WebMD's direct connections to authoritative medical institutions.

Jason's data identified four knowledge sources:

Around 2020-2021, Google began expanding beyond its rigid seed sources, allowing Jason's website to become the authority for his own TV series characters.

The Claim-Frame-Prove System:

Real example: Jason claims expertise in answer engine optimization, frames it as the precursor to AI assistive engine optimization, then gets validation through interviews and articles.

Jeremy's insight: Creating multiple corroborative sources (show notes, articles, guest posts) transforms subjective claims into "truth" that AI systems recognize.

Rand Fishkin's concept of unlinked citations from 2013 proves prescient in the AI era. Jason's early investment in mentions without links across SEMrush, Search Engine Watch, and TrustPilot now pays dividends.

Scale perspective: Wikipedia has 6 million articles while Google's Knowledge Graph contains 54 billion entities - 10,000 times larger.

Entity vs. Parameter: In knowledge graphs, you're an entity. In LLMs, you're a parameter. Both can be reinforced through consistent digital footprint management.

Essential elements:

Technical requirements:

Warning: Google calls this the "point of reconciliation." If you don't own it, they'll assign LinkedIn or Instagram as your entity home - that's rented space you don't control.

Mike King's query fan out concept aligns with Jason's "cascading queries" - both describe how modern systems break down complex queries into component parts.

Micro-AEO approach: Optimize for each cascading query to increase chances of inclusion in LLM outputs.

Warning about reverse engineering: Sites that programmatically answered "people also ask" questions got hit by the HCU update. The solution isn't copying existing answers but adding new perspectives and information gain.

Three-pillar framework:

Free resources: Download guides at KaliCube.com/guides

Information Gain Imperative: With LLMs potentially training on their own output, humans must focus on creating genuinely new perspectives and data. A conversation with a 30-year plumbing expert offers more value than another "how to fix a leaky faucet" article.

Continuous Evolution: Every time you provide new information to algorithms, they store it and don't need it again. This creates pressure to keep moving knowledge forward - a positive challenge for perpetual learners.

Episode Topics:

Industry References:

Guest Information:

Daniel Horowitz
Senior SEO Manager at Informatica
Connect: LinkedIn

Daniel Horowitz shares his decade-long journey in SEO, from agency-side link building campaigns to managing enterprise SEO at Informatica. We dive deep into the impact of Google's Helpful Content Update, the shift from traffic-focused to conversion-focused strategies, and practical tactics that still work in the AI-dominated search landscape.

[00:01] - Introductions and Daniel's background at Informatica
[00:42] - Link building experiences with Shopify Exchange project
[02:09] - Evolution from link building to enterprise SEO strategies
[03:39] - Digital PR vs traditional link building approaches
[07:02] - Google's maker sessions and the "answer engine" revelation
[08:13] - The Helpful Content Update's devastating impact on travel blogging
[09:03] - Enterprise SEO evangelism and cross-functional collaboration
[11:50] - Subject Matter Expert (SME) interview series strategy
[15:05] - Moving beyond basic keyword-focused content
[15:48] - Transitioning from blogs to resource pages and use cases
[19:00] - Justifying content marketing spend with declining traffic
[21:39] - Cross-channel marketing and sentiment analysis
[25:28] - Platform diversification beyond Google
[29:54] - The future of SEO in an AI-dominated world
[37:13] - Actionable advice: The power of internal linking

"I always liken [link building] to fixing the subway system in New York City, whereas you would have to really shut it down for a while in order to put new track down."

"With AI search, we've lost a lot of traffic, but our conversion rate has actually increased quite a bit because of the types of content we're putting out."

"The SEO content model is dead. I don't think that's coming back."

"Internal linking has been so important. I'm shocked at how many businesses just don't do it and don't consider how things relate to each other."

"Where you're being cited is more important than how you're being cited."

These show notes were created to help listeners navigate key topics and access mentioned resources. For the complete conversation and full context, listen to the full episode.

Summary

In this UnscriptedSEO conversation, Jeremy Rivera and LinkedIn expert Daniel Alfon discuss the often-overlooked potential of LinkedIn as a powerful SEO tool.

They explore the evolution of social media, the importance of authority and identity on LinkedIn, and strategies for targeting the right audience. The discussion also covers the nuances of B2B versus B2C marketing, optimizing LinkedIn profiles, the significance of recommendations, and the differences between posting articles and posts. Alfon emphasizes the importance of understanding user behavior on LinkedIn and how to convert connections into meaningful business relationships.

Takeaways

Summary

In this episode of the Unscripted SEO podcast, Keith Breseé hosts Paritosh Pareek and Anthony Prichard from WP Sprints to discuss the critical aspects of SEO, particularly focusing on technical SEO and video strategies for local businesses. They explore the importance of optimizing video content for search engines, common mistakes made in WordPress SEO, and the role of AI in content creation. The conversation emphasizes the need for businesses to adapt to changing SEO landscapes and leverage video as a powerful tool for building trust and visibility online.

Takeaways

Host: Jeremy Rivera - Founder, SEO Arcade
Guest: Melissa Popp - Founder, Rickety Roo | @poppupwriter
Episode Length: 60 minutes

In this deep-dive conversation, Jeremy Rivera and Melissa Popp explore the seismic shifts happening in SEO and digital marketing. From AI overviews decimating organic click-through rates to the fundamental question of whether SEO as we know it still exists, this episode tackles the industry's biggest challenges and opportunities.

Key Discussion Points:

"We should be more in the ecosystem... our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?" - Melissa Popp

"From 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google. That was it. That was our job. We can't ignore other methods or other ways that search occurs." - Jeremy Rivera

"Chat GPT is now your most popular and least knowledgeable customer representative." - Referenced insight from Mike Buckby

"I question whether we actually see the death of the top of the funnel... we relied so much on top of the funnel to drive people in and guide them to the right place on our websites." - Melissa Popp

Jeremy opens discussing how much the SEO world has changed since their last conversation in December. Melissa describes this as "the longest year of marketing in a decade" due to:

Key Resources Mentioned:

Discussion of how the SEO industry is responding with two distinct approaches:

Melissa emphasizes that we still don't understand how LLMs work - "if you put 10 people side by side with the same query in an LLM, you're going to get 10 different answers."

Jeremy references Mike King's recent episode about SEO being "deprecated" but questions whether the complex solutions are just "make more different content in more places."

Melissa breaks down the industry reality:

For local businesses in "Cheyenne, Wyoming," complex LLM strategies aren't necessary - foundational SEO still works because competition is weak.

Jeremy makes the case that "from 2010 to 2021 SEO was merely reverse engineering Google" and that era is over.

Key points:

Jeremy calls out Google's claims about sending "more clicks to the ecosystem" as gaslighting, noting:

Melissa adds context about Google being a for-profit company whose mission "is no longer to make the world better - it's to make as much money as possible."

Discussion of search beyond Google:

Key insight: "Search exists in so many different places, not just this myopic view we have that it's just Google that matters."

Melissa: "Our value could be so much more than Google. Why are we tying ourselves to Google?"

The conversation explores how to bake in other parts of marketing into SEO work and how "we're having a midlife identity crisis as marketers."

AI has the potential to:

Melissa poses a provocative question: Are we seeing "the death of the top of the funnel?"

Key observations:

Discussion of the need for proper testing in the LLM era:

Jeremy notes the rapid iteration of LLM models makes testing challenging - "GPT just changed from four to five and Claude moved from Sonic to Knuckles."

Jeremy introduces the concept of the "double bot sandwich" - humans using bots to create content that other bots read and summarize for other humans.

Critical skill gaps identified:

Melissa discusses the personalization and bias issues in LLM platforms that we can't optimize for.

Special segment on how these changes impact organizations without direct sales:

Jeremy: "The value in SEO is no longer the click. It is the capture of that user."

New success frameworks:

Melissa Popp Speaking Events:

Connect with the Hosts:

Related Episodes:

Summary

In this episode, Jeremy Rivera interviews Chuck McHenry, who shares his extensive journey in the marketing and SEO industry. Chuck discusses the evolution of SEO, the importance of location pages, and how AI and LLMs are changing the landscape of digital marketing. He emphasizes the significance of social media in local services and the need for marketers to diversify their strategies to stay relevant in a rapidly changing environment.

Takeaways

In this fascinating conversation, Jeremy Rivera sits down with Justin Oberman, a seasoned advertising professional turned modern publicist, to explore how the attention economy is reshaping digital marketing. Justin shares his journey from running a seven-figure agency to becoming a specialist in "manufacturing attention" for clients in the advertising and marketing space.

The discussion covers the evolution from traditional SEO tactics to attention-based strategies, the power of showmanship in marketing, and why Justin believes every industry needs its own "Dogecoin" - that disruptive, attention-grabbing player that changes the game.

"I do not believe that advertising or marketing is about persuasion. I don't think it's about selling. I don't think it's about even storytelling. I think those are all techniques for what the main thing that advertising and marketing and branding is, which is showmanship." - Justin Oberman

"All advertising is guesswork, nobody really understands how it works. It's all a gamble. And the only thing that really matters is fame. The more famous you are, the easier everything becomes." - Bob Hoffman (as quoted by Justin)

Have questions about this episode or want to suggest future topics? Reach out to Jeremy Rivera through SEO Arcade or connect on the platforms mentioned above.

Subscribe to Unscripted SEO: unscriptedseo.com

This episode challenges traditional digital marketing thinking and offers a fresh perspective on building authority and visibility in an increasingly crowded online landscape. Whether you're an SEO professional, content creator, or business owner, Justin's insights on manufactured attention provide actionable strategies for standing out in your industry.