Stories of Sacrifice - American POW/MIAs

Stories of Sacrifice - American POW/MIAs

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Stories of Sacrifice - American POW/MIAs episodes

  • Ordered, Then Executed: The Case of Robert James Zacks

    In the first days of the war on Mindanao, a U.S. civilian named Robert James Zacks stood beside the senior American officer in Davao and did what he was told. Colonel Roger Hilsman, U.S. Army, ordered the safe at the Ohta Development Company opened. Zacks went. Seven months later the Japanese executed him for that act. On 10 July 1942 he was beheaded at Magugpo and buried with the Filipino and Chinese men who died beside him.

    This episode tells that story from the primary record—NARA RG 331 Report 186—and asks why a U.S. citizen who followed a U.S. Army officer’s orders is still absent from the accounting roster that DoDD 2310.07 itself says is incomplete.

    What You’ll Hear

    • The December 1941 orders: how Zacks, serving as civilian aide to Col. Hilsman, opened the Ohta safe at Talomo and deposited the recovered funds on Hilsman’s instruction.
    • The affidavits that have sat in the National Archives since 1946—Madeleine Zacks, Leslie E. Stevens, and Gregorio F. Ferreol—describing exactly what happened.
    • The selection at Malaybalay, the Japanese proceeding in Davao, and the execution at Magugpo on 10 July 1942.
    • Why DoDD 2310.07 § 3.1.f already authorizes DPAA to add an eligible omitted U.S. citizen, and why that determination has not been made.
    • What AMAG’s Investigative Team will do on the ground in November.

    Key Primary Sources

    • NARA Record Group 331, War Crimes Branch Report No. 186 (statements of Madeleine Zacks, 8 October 1945; Leslie E. Stevens, 2 January 1946; Gregorio F. Ferreol, 14 and 24 January 1946).
    • DoDD 2310.07, “Past Conflict Personnel Accounting Policy” (12 April 2017), §§ 3.1.f and 3.1.g.
    • U.S. Department of Labor Form 960, SS Point Ancha, 5 April 1933 (Robert Zacks, oiler).
    • Los Angeles Examiner, 4 May 1945 (Henry P. Zacks on his father’s service).

    Central Quotes

    “I was instructed by Colonel HILLSMAN, together with Mr. ZACKS, to proceed there to blow the vault open… Colonel HILLSMAN instructed Mr. ZACKS to turn it in to the City Treasurer… and obtain a receipt.”
    — Leslie E. Stevens, 2 January 1946

    “Lt. Zack… was directed by Colonel Hilsman to open the safe of the Ohta Development Company… Same were brought to the headquarters of Colonel Hilsman by Lt. Zack.”
    — Gregorio F. Ferreol, 24 January 1946

    “When DPAA determines that an eligible person was omitted from the original USG roster, DPAA will add the person.”
    — DoDD 2310.07 § 3.1.f

    Why This Matters

    The World War II rosters are not comprehensive. The directive says so. It also says that when an eligible person was left off, DPAA will add them. Robert James Zacks was a U.S. citizen who acted under the direct orders of a U.S. Army officer and was executed for those acts. The record has existed for eighty years. The authority has existed since 2017. What remains is the determination.

    Looking Ahead

    In November, AMAG’s Investigative Team will be at the location. They are going for Robert James Zacks and for the Filipino and Chinese heroes who were executed and buried with him. The work of bringing them home starts on the ground.

    Support the November Mission

    The November mission is self-funded. If this story matters to you, help put the team on the ground.
    Donate here: https://donorbox.org/support-amag-s-worldwide-mia-mission

    About the Show

    Stories of Sacrifice: American POW/MIAs is produced by John Bear, Chief of Investigative Research, Asymmetric MIA Accounting Group (AMAG).

    It’s About Time ⏳

    https://amagonline.org

    #POW #MIA #AMAG #Magugpo #Mindanao #WWII


    33 min
  • It’s About Time: The Forgotten Men and the Families Still Waiting

    Stories of Sacrifice / AMAG Mindanao Mission

    Eighty-four years after American and Filipino personnel were executed or died on Mindanao, their families are still waiting for graves. This episode tells the stories of the forgotten men and the daughters, sons, and widows who have carried the absence ever since—and why funding is needed now to complete the search.

    The Families

    • Tess Bernales — An infant when her father, Capt. Francisco Maniquiz Gregorio, was executed on 10 July 1942 at Magugpo Cemetery (now Tagum City). She is now in her mid-eighties and has authorized AMAG to represent the family. A site investigation is planned for November 2026, with recovery targeted for early 2027 so she can still be part of it.
    • Henry Zacks and Madeline Zacks — Henry was ten years old in 1945 when newspapers called him “the boy who had forgotten how to smile.” His father, American civilian Robert James Zacks, was buried in the same Magugpo common grave. His mother carried the news through internment.
    • The Fort Family — Brig. Gen. Guy O. Fort was executed in November 1942 after refusing to order Moro guerrillas to surrender. His family has never had a grave. Barbara Fox and Dr. Joseph Postigo (brother of the late actress Julie Vega, Fort’s great-granddaughter) are working directly with AMAG. An independent panel’s first assessments fell within 15–75 meters of the research target.
    • Helen and Roy Welbon — Helen left on the USS Narwhal in November 1943 at her husband’s insistence. On 26 February 1944 Col. Wendell Fertig reported that 1st Lt. Roy E. Welbon had been killed on 24 January while evacuating radio equipment at Baroy and buried in a marked grave with full military honors. She never saw the place. The family is now working directly with AMAG.
    • Pratt, Vesey, Price, and Chandler — 1st Lt. Robert H. Pratt died supporting an older officer on the July 1942 march into Iligan. Lt. Col. Robert H. Vesey volunteered to take the place first assigned to Fort and endured roughly two hours under the bayonet. Living eyewitness Ben Hagans has described the ground. These families have lived with closed files that pre-dated the evidence now in hand.

    Many of the men buried with the Americans were Philippine Army, Constabulary, and Scout personnel. The same investigations serve their families too.

    Why This Mission, Why Now
    Years of primary-source research led by Chief of Investigative Research John Bear identified the sites. Imagery analyst Ed Bauer’s review of period aerial photography and archival records further narrowed the candidate areas. AMAG’s all-volunteer team—Founder and President Michael Henshaw, John Bear, forensic anthropologist Karin Dominko, conflict archaeologist Danny Keay, and Ed Bauer—has partnered with Filipino archaeologists and the Bangsamoro Commission for the Preservation of Cultural Heritage. Mindanao is a red zone for U.S. government travel, which has kept large official teams away. Leadership and scientific volunteers have funded most of the work to date from personal resources.

    The late-November 2026 through March 2027 window will advance the Fort locus, investigate the Magugpo site, and continue work on the Welbon and Pratt leads. Every investigation is designed to end with a recoverability recommendation or a documented closure. Recoveries will follow chain-of-custody through the National Museum of the Philippines.

    Support the Mission
    Both the United States and the Philippines should help fund completion of this work. Private donations are still essential.

    Donate here:
    https://donorbox.org/support-amag-s-worldwide-mia-mission

    Every contribution supports travel, local coordination, equipment, training of Filipino archaeologists, and the ability of volunteers to stay in the field.

    Eighty-four years is long enough.
    It’s About Time.




    56 min
  • Tess and the Search for Her Father: The Magugpo Cemetery

    In 1942, Capt. Francisco Maniquiz Gregorio was taken from his family and never returned. His daughter Tess was only a baby. For more than eighty years she has searched for the truth about what happened to her father and a way to bring him home. She eventually reached out to Asymmetric MIA Accounting Group (AMAG).

    This episode tells the story of Capt. Gregorio and the other men who died with him on July 10, 1942, at Magugpo Cemetery in Mindanao. The group included American civilian Robert James Zacks and Filipino officers and civilians such as Col. Felicisimo Torres, Lt. Alejo Ong, Lt. Amado Halili, and Lt. Francisco Roa. They were selected from the Malaybalay internment camp, taken to Davao, and brought before a Japanese tribunal under Lt. Hosaka. The charges—looting, rape, and mistreatment of Japanese civilians—were supported largely by pre-war Japanese residents who held personal grudges. Fellow prisoners believed the accusations were framed.

    On the afternoon of July 10, the men were loaded onto a truck and driven to Magugpo Cemetery. Eyewitness Socorro Lopez hid behind a tree and watched as Japanese soldiers dug a long common grave. Lt. Suzuki beheaded Zacks; the others were executed and buried in the same place. A postwar U.S. Army War Crimes Branch investigation collected sworn statements from nine witnesses and concluded that, because the men had received a trial under the occupying authority, the case did not meet the standards for a punishable war crime. It was closed and filed.

    Decades later, AMAG investigative researcher John Bear, Director Mike Henshaw, and imagery analyst Ed Bauer have located the execution site. The team is now preparing to deploy ground-penetrating radar this winter to find the grave.

    Tess has waited her entire life for answers. AMAG is working to bring her father and the others home.

    Support the winter recovery mission at amagonline.org.

    49 min
  • The Radio Man and the Teacher — Pt 2 The Guerrilla of Baroy

    Show Notes

    The Radio Man and the Teacher

    A Stories of Sacrifice episode

    In this episode we return to the story of 1st Lt. Roy E. Welbon — not only as the lost guerrilla of Baroy, but as a husband. Through newly uncovered documents from the MacArthur Memorial Archives and the powerful 1990 oral history of his wife, Helen Haladay Welbon, we step into the quiet life they built together in Butuan and the choices that war forced upon them.

    Listeners will hear how a maritime radio operator and a Red Cross teacher created a home on the plaza across from the royal palms, how Helen followed Roy into the jungle, and how, in November 1943, he insisted she leave on the submarine USS Narwhal while he remained behind. We also examine the newly obtained evidence — including Col. Fertig’s casualty report and his radio message to General MacArthur — confirming that after Roy was killed, his comrades recovered his body and buried him with full military honors beneath a small white cross on the plaza in Baroy.

    This is a story of ordinary love tested by extraordinary times, and of the unfinished work still required to bring one American home.

    Main Topics

    • Roy and Helen’s life together in pre-war Butuan
    • Helen’s vivid memories of their house, the sawmill, and daily life
    • The outbreak of war and the Christmas Eve 1941 evacuation
    • Helen’s decision to follow Roy — including the bilge of the launch
    • The heartbreaking choice at Cantilan and the USS Narwhal evacuation
    • New MacArthur Archives documents: Ken Bayley memoir, Fertig casualty report, and the radio confirming a marked grave with full military honors
    • Helen’s long silence and her 1990 oral history
    • The continuing search for Roy Welbon and other Mindanao MIAs

    Support the Mission
    AMAG — the Asymmetric MIA Accounting Group — is preparing a mission to Mindanao this winter to locate the remains of 1st Lt. Roy Welbon and other Americans still missing in the region. If this story has moved you, please help finish what war left unfinished.

    Donate here: https://donorbox.org/support-amag-s-worldwide-mia-mission

    It’s About Time ⏳


    38 min
  • Baron 52: What the U.S. Intelligence Community Knew — and When

    Baron 52: What the U.S. Intelligence Community Knew — and When
    Baron 52 (REFNO 1983)
    Date: August 2026

    Three months after Baron 52 went down, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the Pentagon’s senior civilian official for POW/MIA affairs still treated the survival of the crew as an open analytical question.

    A year later, language about four Americans believed captured in Laos reached the President of the United States.

    In this episode we examine the American intelligence record that has long sat alongside the intercept — what U.S. agencies documented in 1973 and 1974, and what later investigative reporting added.

    Drawing on the new U.S. Intelligence Community Reporting and Correlations Addendum, we walk through:

    • The May 1973 DIA assessment involving Dr. Roger Shields and the Berbrich memorandum
    • CIA order-of-battle reporting that independently tracked the 210th AAA Regiment and the formation of the 377th Air Defense Division
    • The personnel correlation of Lt. Col. Lương Khánh Văn
    • Communications architecture, the Vinh Window, and the firsthand account from a former RC-135 Combat Apple linguist
    • Residual-prisoner assessments that reached the presidential level in May and June 1974
    • Binh Tram 35/36 order of battle and the Brashear case (REFNO 1437) as documented prisoner handling
    • The continuing oral-history gap: no Baron 52-specific interviews have ever been conducted with PAVN veterans of these same units

    The episode maintains a careful analytical standard — distinguishing what the documents explicitly state, what can be reasonably correlated, and what remains open.


    Key Documents Referenced

    • John T. Berbrich, Defense Intelligence Agency, Memorandum for the Record, 23 May 1973
    • CIA / Department of Defense Joint Report, 10 October 1973 (Thirty-Third Report on Communist Violations)
    • Central Intelligence Bulletin, 18 May 1974
    • President’s Daily Brief, 4 June 1974
    • IIR 6 024 0024 02 (Stony Beach / JTF-FA) – Binh Tram 35/36 Order of Battle
    • S158-130 (DIA / DPMO) – Brashear case (REFNO 1437)
    • AMAG U.S. Intelligence Community Reporting and Correlations Addendum, 1 August 2026


    Related Episodes & Full Package

    • Previous episode: From 44 to 93 — Group 210, Mr. Van, and the Baron 52 Intercept
    • Full research package, Intercept Addendum, and U.S. Intelligence Community Addendum:
      https://www.storiesofsacrifice.org/blog/baron52/



    41 min
  • From 44 to 93 — Group 210, Mr. Van, and the Baron 52 Intercept

    On the night of 5 February 1973, just nine days after the Paris Peace Accords were signed, an NSA intercept reported that Group 210 was holding four “pirates” and moving them from kilometer location 44 to kilometer location 93 under the control of “Mr. Van,” while experiencing difficulties along the road.

    In this episode we examine the full body of evidence now surrounding that intercept. We identify Group 210 as the 210th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment, reinforced into the Division 471 sector during the 1972–73 dry season. We identify “Mr. Van” as Lieutenant Colonel Lương Khánh Vân, Political Officer of the 377th Air Defense Division and the officer responsible for POW handling in that sector. We show why kilometer location 44 correlates to the Tang Cat area under Binh Tram 35 control — the same sector where Baron 52 crashed — and why new testimony from a Binh Tram 35 truck driver who recalled operating from kilometer location 94 strengthens the intercept’s terminal point.

    We also examine the consistent PAVN use of the terms “pirates,” “pirate pilots,” and “pilots” as standard slang for U.S. aircrew in the southern Laos corridor, and we explain the Vinh Window communications architecture that caused southern Laos traffic to appear in NSA collection with Vinh-area indicators. The 1971 Jack Butcher case is referenced as historical proof that the same collection system successfully tracked an American airman moving through the southern Laos Binh Tram network.

    Taken together, the evidence supports a high-probability reading that the four back-end crew members of Baron 52 — Sgt. Dale Brandenburg, Sgt. Peter R. Cressman, Sgt. Joseph A. Matejov, and SSgt. Todd M. Melton — survived the crash, were captured, and were moved alive through the Binh Tram 35 / Division 471 logistics network.

    Key Topics Covered:

    • The core language of the REFNO 1983 intercept
    • PAVN terminology: “pirates,” “pirate pilots,” and “pilots”
    • Identification of Group 210 (210th AAA Regiment)
    • Identification of “Mr. Van” (Lt. Col. Lương Khánh Vân)
    • Geographic correlation of Km 44 to Tang Cat / Binh Tram 35
    • New evidence linking Km 93 to a known Binh Tram 35 kilometer location (Km 94)
    • The Vinh Window relay architecture and the Jack Butcher precedent
    • How the six elements form one coherent operational picture

    Primary Sources Referenced:

    • National Security Agency, Unidentified NVN Element Reports on Movement of Prisoners, Follow-up Number One and Final (2/R0/186-73, 050630Z Feb 73), DOCID 4132644
    • National Security Agency, Unidentified Multichannel Conversation Reveals Captivity of Four Pilots (2/R0/182-73)
    • NSA POW/MIA Correlation Studies (multiple REFNOs documenting “pirate pilots” terminology, 1970–1972)
    • Hoàng Sĩ Khiêm, Sư đoàn 471 Trường Sơn trong mùa khô năm 1972 (Signal Battalion 446 memoir)
    • Nguyễn Đức Năm, Facebook post, “HỘI TRƯỜNG SƠN SƯ ĐOÀN 471 ANH HÙNG,” July 2026 (C1/D59, Binh Tram 35)
    • Nguyễn Văn Trung, “Quên mình cứu đoàn xe chở xăng,” Quân Đội Nhân Dân, 2017
    • Joint Task Force-Full Accounting, Investigation Report on Case 1437 (Corrected Report), 22 May 2002
    • Flynn, William G., and Sharon Maneki, “The Jack Butcher Case: A Story of Courage, Commitment, and Concern,” Cryptologia 37, no. 3 (2013)

    Full Documents:
    The complete Intercept Addendum and the full Baron 52 research package are available at:
    https://www.storiesofsacrifice.org/blog/baron52/

    #Baron52 #POWMIA #GoldStarFamily #FullestPossibleAccounting


    40 min
  • The Lost Guerrilla of Baroy – The Search for 1st Lt. Roy E. Welbon

    In this episode, we tell the story of First Lieutenant Roy E. Welbon — a Canadian-American mariner turned guerrilla communications officer — who was killed defending a radio station in Baroy, Lanao del Norte, in January 1944. We explore how contemporary evidence, declassified documents, and modern forensic methods are giving new hope to a case long considered closed.

    Main Topics:

    • Roy Welbon’s maritime career as a radio operator and his transition to guerrilla communications in the 10th Military District
    • The establishment of “Welbon Station” and its critical role in Fertig’s network
    • Helen Welbon’s evacuation on the USS Narwhal and Roy’s decision to stay behind
    • The February 1944 Tenth Military District report confirming recovery of his body from a marked grave in the Baroy plaza
    • The Tarkington manuscript account of the small white cross placed on the plaza in front of Father Thibault’s church
    • Post-war loss of the remains and the challenges of MIA recovery in the Philippines
    • Current efforts by AMAG to investigate the Baroy plaza area using ground-penetrating radar and local coordination
    • The power of combining archival research with forensic science to bring closure to families

    Key Evidence Highlighted:

    • Knudsen eyewitness report (26 Jan 1944)
    • Fertig-signed 10th Military District Casualty Report (25 Feb 1944)
    • Tarkington manuscript (There Were Others) via Father Haggerty
    • 1945 newspaper interview with Helen Welbon

    Connect & Support AMAG’s Mission:
    If this story moved you, please consider supporting AMAG’s efforts to locate and recover American MIAs from World War II in the Philippines. Your donations directly fund field investigations, ground-penetrating radar surveys, DNA analysis, and coordination with local communities in places like Baroy. Every contribution helps bring heroes like Roy Welbon home.

    Visit https://amagonline.org to learn more or make a donation today. Together, we can ensure that no one is left behind - Its About Time





    39 min
  • The Evidence - Gold Star Families Appeal to Under Secretary Anthony J. Tata

    In this special episode, we present a formal appeal to Under Secretary of War Anthony J. Tata, whose responsibilities include oversight of the Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency and related POW/MIA policy matters.

    We examine significant new evidence that has emerged since the 2016 DPAA review of the Baron 52 incident (REFNO 1983). This includes previously unavailable Vietnamese primary sources from the PAVN 471st Division and detailed analysis of declassified U.S. SIGINT. This evidence indicates that reported activity involving four U.S. personnel occurred within the Binh Tram 35 sector along Route 128 — the location of the Baron 52 crash site — a context that was not fully examined in prior assessments.

    We also address the limitations of the 2016 review, questions surrounding the 1992–1993 excavation, and DPAA’s current position that it will not revisit resolved cases. This episode is intended to provide Under Secretary Tata and his staff with a clear, documented basis for directing a formal technical review of the Baron 52 case.

    Key Topics Covered:

    • New Vietnamese primary sources from the PAVN 471st Division and Binh Tram 35
    • SIGINT correlation and geographic analysis directly tied to the Baron 52 crash site
    • Limitations of the 2016 DPAA review and the 1992–1993 excavation
    • DPAA’s February 2026 statement that it will not reevaluate resolved cases
    • A formal request for a technical and policy review

    Full Reassessment Package:
    All documents referenced in this episode — including the Executive Summary, Congressional Briefing Document, complete research report, family letters to Under Secretary Tata, and the AMAG memorandum — are available at:

    https://www.storiesofsacrifice.org/blog/baron52/

    How to Take Action:
    We respectfully request that Under Secretary Tata direct a formal technical review of the Baron 52 case based on the new evidence now available. We also encourage congressional offices, veterans organizations, and advocacy groups to support this request.

    Contact:
    John BearChief of Investigative ResearchAsymmetric MIA Accounting Group (AMAG) Inc. [email protected]
    #SecrataryOfWar #GoldStarFamilyRequest #POWMIA #Baron52





    36 min
  • History Repeats: One Family’s 1745 Frontier Captivity Echoes in a WWII General’s 1942 Execution

    In this gripping episode, Asymmetric MIA Accounting Group Chief of Investigative Research John Bear reveals one of the most haunting “full circle” stories in American history.

    On November 27, 1745, during King George’s War, a French and Native force raided Old Saratoga, New York. Young Jacob Fort watched his father Abraham “Abram” Fort and uncle Capt. Johannes Fort taken prisoner, marched north through brutal winter conditions, and ultimately die in a Quebec military prison. Their bodies were never returned—left in unmarked graves near the Hôpital-Général cemetery.

    Two hundred and eighty-one years later, in 1942, Brigadier General Guy O. Fort—direct descendant of that same paternal line—faced an eerily parallel fate on the opposite side of the world. A career soldier who grew up near Saratoga County and almost certainly knew the ancestral stories of capture and loss, General Fort commanded the 81st Philippine Infantry Division on Mindanao. After surrendering under protest, he was interned at Camp Keithley. When ordered to betray the Moro people he had served for four decades, he refused and was executed by firing squad. His remains were buried in an isolated grave, never recovered.

    Through forensic genetic genealogy, exhaustive paper trails, and General Fort’s own diaries, the unbreakable connection between the 1745 Saratoga captives and the WWII general is now confirmed. History repeated itself in the most profound way within a single family.

    As AMAG prepares its June 2026 humanitarian recovery mission at historic Camp Keithley, this episode explores resilience, sacrifice, and the long arc of remembrance.

    Support the Mission
    AMAG’s June 2026 recovery effort at Camp Keithley is entirely self-funded. Your donation directly helps locate and bring General Guy O. Fort home after 84 years. Every contribution advances the promise that no one is left behind. Donate securely today at:
    https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/donation-form/support-amags-mission-mindanao-forgotten-graves-false-closures-and-new-hope
    (100% of your donation goes to the mission; fully tax-deductible.)


    59 min
  • Memorial Day Reflection: “He Was a Soldier” – General Fort’s Call from the Grave

    On this solemn Memorial Day, we remember the thousands of American heroes who still lie unknown — some beneath the white crosses of our national cemeteries, others still lost on the battlefields of the past, like Brigadier General Guy O. Fort.

    In 1935, General Fort stood at Camp Keithley cemetery in Marawi and delivered a heartfelt Memorial Day address, pleading for the identification of fallen soldiers whose records were lost and whose names had been forgotten. Just seven years later, he and three fellow officers — Lt. Col. Robert H. Vesey, Capt. Albert H. Price, and 1st Sgt. John L. Chandler — were executed by Japanese forces at that very same place. All four remain Missing in Action, buried in shallow, unmarked graves.

    Today, the Asymmetric MIA Accounting Group (AMAG) is leading an independent, self-funded mission in Mindanao to locate General Fort and the Keithley Three so they can finally receive their names and the honorable burial they earned.

    This powerful episode explores Fort’s own words — “He was a soldier” — the heartbreaking irony of his fate, and the revolutionary promise of Forensic Investigative Genetic Genealogy (FIGG). We highlight how private labs, like Bode Technology, are already identifying WWII remains — such as those of Arthur H. Kelder from the Cabanatuan POW camp — in just months, even from old formaldehyde-treated bones.

    As Fort himself once pleaded for the unknown, his voice still calls us home. It’s time for the Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency (DPAA) and AFDIL to fully embrace DNA-first, FIGG-led methods so no more families wait generations to know their loved one’s final resting place.

    He was a soldier.
    And no American soldier — or family — should have to wait any longer.

    ⏳ It's About Time 🇺🇸

    If you’re a listener moved by our podcast stories, please support our AMAG’s recovery mission in Mindanao with a donation here: https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/donation-form/support-amags-mission-mindanao-forgotten-graves-false-closures-and-new-hope







    35 min

About Stories of Sacrifice - American POW/MIAs

From the publisher's feed

Stories of Sacrifice Podcast are interviews with families of our Nation's POW/MIAs who are currently buried as Unknown in our National Cemeteries or still listed as Missing in Action. These families…