storytelling translationships by translationships.net

April 16, 2024 Reconnecting with culture / 重新连接文化

In this episode storytellers Kim, Zheng, research assistant Bixin, and hosts Cristina and Taiko focus on two stories: Kim’s retelling of “Scholar Tang Bohu and Maid Qiu Xiang”and Zheng’s “The Farmer and the Snake”. Both stories speak about the nature of good and evil, competing human identity traits, and help us to reflect on how to navigate such distinctions. We talk about the cultural contexts of their stories consider how these contexts help them interpret, tell, and pass on the stories in ways that are meaningful to them.

English transcript

Speaker 1

(Speaking in Chinese)

我要给你讲一个故事

这是一个有关于中国明代画家，有名的画家唐伯虎的...

(Speaking in English)

This is a folk tale regarding one of the most notable painters in Chinese art history. His name is Tang BoHu. His superior talent won him wealthy, high-end social status, as well as many admirers….

(music)

Speaker 2

Welcome to Storytelling Translationships. You were just listening to a clip of Kim's story, scholar Tang Bohu and maid Qiuxiang, in Mandarin and in English. To hear the full versions, you can find it on our website, translationships.net. I'm Taiko Aoki-Marcial, and in today's episode, my co-host Christina Sanchez-Martin and I are talking with Kim, Zheng, and Bixin.

(music)

Speaker 2

All right, great to be with you all again. Welcome, and can you introduce yourselves briefly for our listeners?

Speaker 1

Yes, my name is Kim, and I really like the culture, both from western country, also the Chinese culture, and I really like to study and to tell my story. Thank you.

Speaker 3

Hello, my name is Zheng. My story comes from the Aseop’s Fables, and also the story is very popular in my home country, also south of China. We use the Chinese to explain or to educate our kids. Yeah, the story name is the farmer and the snake.

Speaker 4

Hi everyone, my name is Bixin. I'm the research assistant here.

Speaker 2

Great, thanks. So to start off, Zheng, Kim, as well as you, Bixin, we've all shared stories recently, and we appreciate the detailed conversations that you've all had around them. So we're going to put these stories into conversation today.

Could we all start by providing just a really short summary of your story for those who haven't had a chance to listen yet?

Speaker 1

Yes, thank you. My story is about the lovers, two people who fall in love, but there's a difficulties in between them because of social stigma, and also social status, social stigma, also the ancient Chinese cultures not allow them to. But they bend the rule, and persist, and because of their persistence, and conquer difficulty, and then fall in love, and to get married, have a happy ending. Thank you.

Speaker 3

One story I read when I was little still impressed me a lot. This story comes from the Greek Aesop's Fables, The Farmer and the Snake.

In the cold winter day, the farmer saw the dead snake when passing by the fields. Spontaneously, he had compassion on it, and then saved this snake by giving warmth to it. However, when the snake woke up, it gave an unexpected bite to the farmer.

Why did you bite me even after I saved you? asked the farmer. Snake laughed evilly. Do you know who I am? I'm a snake.

In the end of the story, farmer unfortunately died with sadness. This story means a lot to me. Even until today, the story reflects me on many aspects of our life.

It asked us, is it true that what goes around comes around?

Speaker 5

So can you comment a little bit more about how these stories help us to understand and question the expectations that society has for us and how these appear in the stories?

Speaker 1

For my story, it's about love. There's a condition that both people, both two of them, need to fall in love first. So there's some expectation that one pursues another, and maybe the other one does not return the favor.

So no matter how much you make the effort, sometimes expectations may fall. But under this, my story is more like a moral society would be accepted because no matter how hard it is, their social status, and their situation are different, but they fall in love. Both of them, they love each other.

So that's why they have the happy ending, and because of the conditions already put there. Thank you.

Speaker 2

It was really interesting to consider the format or like the modality that these stories were shared with you. Zheng and Kim, both of you told stories that you first read in books that your parents had, but they're also kind of well-known stories that exist and circulate in other formats. For example, these are stories that are orally told in many places. They're in television and movies.

So this question is kind of what is the significance of how a story is told, the modality of the story? What are the differences? What are the opportunities, advantages of different storytelling formats? How does it change from one format to another, or does it change? And what is the meaning or importance of that?

Speaker 1

Like that. So there's a book with an author in the past is kind of common. And then in the Ming Dynasty, there's more like a historian, also a writer to formally write this story on a book. The name is Feng Menglong. That's in the Ming Dynasty. It's because that person is collecting the folk tales and wanted to record them.

This part, this part of the story is not that interesting. That's why, but the main, what we call Zheng is the same, but the story itself is not very interesting. It's kind of plain. Then, for example, when we watch on the TV and a movie, and when my mom told me, there's the adding more like interesting story, for example, like the female character Chu Xiang is very beautiful and smart. But in the TV shows later created, and also the movie, they said, except Chu Xiang, other female servants are ugly. Because they said that Chu Xiang is not as beautiful as he described, because they have the ugly servant, it's kind of like, make like a kind of more like leaves and those flowers to comparison, to make it more interesting to compare with other ugly servants.

Also, they have more, for example, like more details that's not showing in the books, and then people adding the details so that make it more have the more like a have the flash. For example, when Tang Bohu, the male character, met Miss Chu Xiang, Chu Xiang is feeding the hungry, feeding the homeless people in the temple. In the book, there's no description of that.

In the movie and also in the TV shows, they were showing more like a character of the female character Chu Xiang make it more like kind and beautiful and smart. And that looks more like a higher, the actress is more like a beautiful, charming like that. But in the books, they're not reflecting much of the details of the information.

When the movie first come out is in the 1980s. And I never saw that one. The first one I saw in the movie is 1993.

And after that will be TV shows produced by the Hong Kong director. And it's in 2000. After 2000, they have many more version of that so that we can tell from generation to generations.I hope that answer your question.

Speaker 4

Yeah, so what Zheng just shared, when she was a child, she was already told about this story, the farmer and the snake. When she heard this story, her first reaction was that, oh, we can't do the same like what the farmer did. So they kind of laughed on what the farmer did. The educational meaning that she received, when she first read the story was that we should treat the right people with kindness, and stay away from evil people. So when she read this book, this from a storybook, she learned that kindness cannot be given to everyone. It should be chosen, and should be selected for the right people. After that, she also learned about this story through short videos, and TV like cartoons. So there are many modalities of this story being told.

However, the meaning told by this story remains the same, that the purpose of this story is to educate children how to give kindness. When she looks back on the story, she has some different ideas. So when she told this story to her son, she has her own interpretation that she wants to share with her son.

And this is one of her favorite ways to tell this story, like to have her own interpretation when reading the story of the farmer and the snake to other people.

Speaker 5

Wow, so interesting. And this next question kind of connects back to that. Since it seems that the stories revolve around relationships that stories have and create across generations, and this is a point that connects both of your stories too. Kim, you mentioned that your mom's generation as well as your generation and your cousins and their children all know about that story. And Zheng, you mentioned that your parents use stories like this to educate you and also that you told the story to your son. We just heard about that, your own interpretation of this story. And all of us, Taiko, Bixin and I also have stories that connect us to our families as well. So how do you think that the stories might help connect people across generations? Is it important to pass on the knowledge from the stories to future generations? Why yes or no, or maybe yes and no and both? Can you tell us a little bit more about this?

Speaker 1

Yes, the reason that the story we have is very popular and passed along from generations to generations is about love. Loving is like an internal topic, like we love people and we talk to, we make the stories, a lot of like stories, also songs and movies. It's like a popular topic. So when my mom or my other family members, we discuss with that, it's kind of interesting topic. That's why we talk about that.

Also another important reason is, it's connected to the reality. In the reality, we have experienced like almost everyone experience about like pursuing something, about if I have met some difficulties, how can I conquer it? Those are very important topic too. So this story connected both love and persistence and how to conquer the difficulties what we have. So yeah, so that's how we connect it and definitely we will tell other, like my children too, because it's just interesting and people love to talk about that. Thank you.

Speaker 3

So in my opening, I'm just thinking why I choose this topic and this story? Because I want just doing the things and keep the Cantonese things and keep the story still to a spring or getting popular to every kids to know. So that's important. When I grew up, I think this topic is still important to everyone. So that's why I want to share this, my idea or some little bit concern to everyone across the generation as well.

Because kindness continues to be an important topic. Yeah.

Yeah. We have different thinking of the Cantonese in this world and especially the people when they grew up, they still thinking they need to do or they don't need to do or only just talk about the story because it's an action. It's something you need to keep doing. It's not only about a story, only read about and that's it. Yeah. We just want people to do the things more like that.

Speaker 5

I really like that.

Speaker 3

And also made a question in the new generation to let them think from the older time, we had a new icon, how to say that? Different icon or different thing?

(Zheng speaking to Bixin in Cantonese)

Speaker 4

So we might have different perspectives if we share the same story with people from different countries, different race, different culture, different, you know, backgrounds. I'm sure that people will interpret in a different perspective.

Speaker 3

Yeah. That's my thinking. I want to hear about the feedback for after I told you guys too maybe someone after hear my voice, they can give some feedback to me for this question. Yeah.

Speaker 5

The story reminded me a little bit since you're talking about different cultures and so on. It reminded me a little bit of Romeo and Juliet. And then the Spanish version of Romeo and Juliet, there's also a La Celestina. But in that case, it's about a woman who's like a witch. And she makes these two people fall in love, but they belong to different social classes. And so it's a tragedy. So it just reminded me a little bit about it. And I just wondered about how the basics of the story are taken up differently, what's added to it, how the meaning changes and so on. And I realized that it is Kim's story. But your point about the cultures, let me think about that a little bit.

Speaker 3

It's the, they already get no unpopular in all of the world. They spread the same idea to the world. But also, just until now, the social and the world and people's thinking are a little bit changed in this modern world right now. So we want to give people more concerned about is that only doing things good that’s enough or only allowed people to do good things with the good people or rather people like that. Is that good? Can fix our or can improve our right now the social kind of issue in the different way. Is, does it make sense? I don't know. So. Bixin.

(Zheng speaking to Bixin in Cantonese)

Speaker 4

Yeah, I agree with you. I think, you know, many of the things we might have been educated might not necessarily work out. So I think it's really important for us to have our own understanding, develop our own interpretation that we think, what can work out. For example, like the story shared by you. I think even though it tells us, OK, the kindness cannot be given to everyone because especially in front of the evil people. However, I think when it comes to our nowadays society, I kind of believe that we don't have to select people to do good things because it should be from our genuine, you know, like intention.

If I feel like doing good things with people, I would just go ahead instead of like selecting who is good, who is right to do, because I feel like then that kind of loses the the real purpose of sharing kindness, sharing love. I think by doing good acts, it should be unconditional. I guess this is also what Zheng wants to convey to us. Is that what you want to share with us, Zheng?

Speaker 3

Yeah, you are a good listener and understanding. Totally. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Thank you for explaining some of my story in this time. Yeah, that's good. Thank you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, Zheng, this story really makes me think a lot about what is good and evil. I think the question that the snake asked at the end of the farmer, he says, I'm a snake. So, who made a mistake in this story? The farmer, maybe he should have thought a little bit more deeply about his own actions, I guess, you know, like, it's a snake. Right? I don't know what it says about people. Your expectation of other people and their behavior depends on you and not on them. Right. And so you are the only one who controls your behavior. You can't control what other people do. You can only control yourself. And so it was, it was not the snake who made an evil act. He was just being himself. He's a snake. And it was the farmer that had an expectation that that wasn't with reality. Yeah, the farmer, the farmer expected something that he shouldn't have in that situation.

And for that reason, you know, so maybe the snake isn't necessarily evil, but it's kind of showing us that we need to be responsible for ourselves. And, and understand that other people are, are going to do what they're going to do. And we need to think about ourselves in relationship to those other people, as opposed to other people, and expecting them to behave how we want them to behave. That's what it kind of makes me think about those evil, like snake being evil, the snake was just doing his snake thing, you know.

Speaker 3

Mm-hmm. So that's point. So that's make me still had a question. So we, so far, if, if I wanna be as farmer, so maybe give me more experience, and we would like to think, think of some more situation and find a good way to doing the kind things before we doing the things, just whatever, just feel free to do that. So that's the important things. So you need to find a good way to doing things. The, the maybe protect yourself also, you can get a more time or more chance to still to doing the things.

Speaker 2

All right. This question here is kind of about language and how language is really the conduit of stories. You both use Mandarin to tell them at first, but in addition, you're also telling them in English to us and to your friends and to other multilingual communities. So how do you think the story changes or not depending on the language or combination of language that is told? Is language important to convey the meaning and the teachings of the stories? Does it matter? And then finally, what would you want teachers to know about these stories? What would you tell teachers you work with about the language in these stories?

Speaker 1

So for me, I understand both English and Mandarin, and I have a little bit trouble to interpret what's really going on there with my story. Their language is definitely playing very important part. Also the context, the cultural differences between the Western and the Chinese one. So my have, I have one example, like for example, Tang Bohu sold himself to the Hua family, which is a local, very, have a high social status, like a scholar's family. So Tang Bohu sold himself to being a servant. So my translation here is, he as a servant, but it's a different culture. The people who are poor, they normally will sign a contract to say, I wanted to be your, more like a servant, but I wanted to get money like one time or per monthly, or I will do that. It's more like employment. But once you get into the family, you don't have many of the liberty or freedom at all. So they asked me to do anything you will have to do. So it's kind of like self-created slavery. So in Chinese, we can easily to say it's jia ding, but in the Western culture, it's not like a slave. It's not Black people. You don't have any freedom. But for this kind of contract, you can, when you want to get out, you can buy yourself out. So that's why Tang Bohu can easily buy himself out from the contract of being a slave, because he's rich. The only reason he get into it is to get closer and to get to know Qiuxiang, the female servant who is poor and also sold herself to the Hua family. But because she's poor, she don't have the power to buy her out. That's the differences between the servant and the kind of Western style of the slaves. So it's unique. So for me, I have a trouble when I translate, I have a trouble. Is that a male slave or girl slave? Or we just translate into the servant or just a maid and servant. So in the end, I have to give up my struggle and pick the servant and the maid, those translations. It's kind of different than the meaning of the slave from the Western culture.

Speaker 2

That is a really, really interesting and really important and kind of difficult translation there that has a lot of social and class and wealth and race and culture kind of like all mixed up together. That makes that translation really meaningful and really difficult. I'm glad you kind of brought that up and explained it a little more.

Speaker 1

Thank you. Yeah. So I wish I can learn more and I can like my English is still my second language. Wanted to improve more. I hope I can in the future, I can give more better definition on the translation. Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 5

Or we could also incorporate some of those concepts in Chinese to expand how we understand these concepts in English, right? The Chinese concepts might give us a bigger understanding of these relationships as well. That also have to do with gender, by the way. Yeah, it's super interesting. Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 1

You're welcome. And you're very welcome. I really love to share this. Thank you.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I agree with that. My language part in my home language is Chinese. So when I use Chinese to read a book and telling the book, that goes this good. My story, Farmer and Snake, it goes very simple way, simple words. And that makes sense. So as a second language learner, I still need to use my best way to explain my opening. So we had a final question there. Is that I'm doing things. And so we made a question as what goes around, what comes around. So in these sentences, we had a very special words to explain for that. But in English, I need you, through the people who is better or some intro to be like with my dictionary or translate some software, use that to make sense. Yeah. But if I only think English, I don't understand the English, the translation. It's explained the Chinese, the meaning. It doesn't make sense. It's different. So in Chinese way, it's

(Zheng speaks in Chinese)

Really short, like eight words. But in English, I don't know it makes sense or doesn't make sense. So this is a little bit my problem.

Speaker 4

Yeah, we have a lot of, you know, Chinese proverbs that, you know, can really tell the meanings easily. However, we might not find, you know, the same expressions or phrases in English. Sometimes, you know, we just can't find the same words like this proverb shared by Zheng earlier. It means that if we do good things, we're rewarded with good. If we do evil things, then, you know, the same that will be rewarded with evil. I believe that, you know, such a, such a meaning is expressed in, maybe in all cultures, just in different ways. But I think, Zheng, you have done a good job because you're trying to use your own interpretation. And I find that's very, you know, helpful to, you know, to express the meanings from your own culture, because, you know, each culture or language can, you know, bring something that you should, you know, you should not be, you know, worried about, because sometimes, like in English, you know, we might not find exactly the same expressions. However, you know, we can use all languages to express the same meanings.

Speaker 3

Sometimes in English, the translation, they explain the meaning of the words or some phrase you wanted to explain. They're very simple and doesn't go straightly. They had a like idiom or something. It's really different. So in this story, just the final question, we used a little bit Chinese phrase. It is the idiom from Chinese. Yeah. And that maybe English can use the different way to explain for that. I learned a little from here. This story.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Okay. And we're going to wrap up thinking about something that Zheng mentioned about how the stories we think of can show our personal experiences and personal emotions and give us a way of expressing ourselves.

—--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Credits

Speaker 5

This podcast has been produced with the support from the University of Washington Simpson Center and the College of Arts and Sciences and a National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge grant. Special thanks to our guests for generously sharing the treasures that these stories are for their families and communities. More information on their stories and others involved in this project can be found on our podcast website, translationships.net. The title of our podcast was inspired by Force 11, Open Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication Working Group, which challenges the global scholarly communication community to develop more openly and equitably translational relationships across cultures, languages, regions, boundaries, disciplines, and worldviews, as it appears in Spence and Brandau's 2021 article towards language sensitivity and diversity in the digital humanities.

Speaker 2

Our collaborators for this project include language and pedagogical support from Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Siderey, and Bixin Fu, technology and logistical support from Frank Macarthy and Elliott Stevens. In the introduction, we quote Kimmerer's, “Braiding Sweetgrass, Indigenous wisdom, scientific knowledge, and the teaching of plants”, and Joy Harjo's introduction to the website, Living Nations, Living Organs. The song in the introduction is a remix of Mercedes Sosa and Balderrama by Kermesse, a group from Buenos Aires formed in 2015 by the duo Fase and Gertz, aka Muno, and licensed under the Creative Commons..

website, translationships.net.

Chinese transcript translation

发言者 1

（以中文发言）

这是一个有关于中国明代画家有名的画家唐伯虎的民间故事

（以英语发言）

这是一个关于中国艺术史上最著名的画家之一的民间故事。他的名字是唐伯虎。他出众的才华为他赢得了富裕、高端的社会地位以及众多的崇拜者……

（音乐）

发言者 2

欢迎收听 Storytelling Translationships。您刚刚收听的是 Kim 的故事片段，即学者唐伯虎和侍女秋香，有普通话和英文版本。要收听完整版本，您可以在我们的网站 translationships.net 上找到。我是 Taiko Aoki-Marcial，在今天的节目中，我的联合主持人 Christina Sanchez-Martin 和我正在与 Kim、Zheng 和 Bixin 交谈。

（音乐）

发言者 2

好的，很高兴再次与大家见面。欢迎大家，您们能为我们的听众简单介绍一下自己好吗？

发言者 1

好的，我叫 Kim，我非常喜欢文化，既喜欢西方文化，也喜欢中国文化，我非常喜欢学习和讲述我的故事。谢谢。

发言者 3

你好，我的名字是Zheng。我的故事来自《伊索寓言》，这个故事在我的祖国，也就是中国南方，非常流行。我们用中文来讲述或教育我们的孩子。是的，故事的名字是《农夫与蛇》。

发言者 4

大家好，我叫 Bixin。我是这里的研究助理。

发言者 2

太好了，谢谢。首先，Zheng、Kim和你，Bixin，我们最近都分享了故事，我们很感激你们围绕这些故事进行的详细对话。所以今天我们要把这些故事放在一起讨论。

我们能不能先为那些还没有机会听的人提供一个非常简短的故事摘要？

发言者 1

好的，谢谢。我的故事是关于一对恋人，两个相爱的人，但由于社会偏见、社会地位、社会耻辱以及古代的中国文化不允许他们这样做，使他们之间的结合出现了困难。但他们打破常规，坚持不懈，因为他们的坚持，克服了困难，坠入爱河，然后结婚，有了一个幸福的结局。谢谢。

发言者 3

小时候读过的一个故事至今让我印象深刻。这个故事是来自于希腊的伊索寓言《农夫与蛇》。

某个寒冷的冬天的一天，农夫路过田野时看到了一条死蛇。他自发地对它产生了同情，然后通过给它取暖，救活了它。然而，当蛇醒来时，它却意外地咬了农夫一口。

“我救了你，你为什么还要咬我？”农夫问。蛇邪恶地笑了。“你知道我是谁吗？我是一条蛇。”

故事的最后，农夫不幸地悲伤地死去了。这个故事对我来说意义重大。直到今天，这个故事仍然反映在我生活的很多方面。

它问我们，善有善报，恶有恶报，这是真的吗？

发言者 5

那么，您能否进一步评论一下这些故事如何帮助我们理解和质疑社会对我们的期望，以及这些期望是如何在故事中体现出来的？

发言者 1

对于我的故事来说，它是关于爱情的。有一个条件，两个人，他们两个人，都需要先彼此钟爱对方。所以会有某些期望，一个人追求另一个人，而另一个人可能不会回报你的爱意。

所以无论你付出多少努力，有时期望可能会落空。但在这种情况下，我的故事更像是一个会被道德社会所接受的，因为无论多么困难，他们的社会地位和处境都不相同，但他们都坠入爱河。他们两个彼此相爱。

所以这就是为什么他们有这个幸福的结局，也是因为这个既定的条件。谢谢。

发言者 2

考虑到与你们分享这些故事的形式或形态真的很有趣。Zheng和Kim，你们俩都讲了首次在父母的持有有的书中读到的故事，但这些故事也都是以其他形式存在的和流传的著名故事。例如，这些故事在很多地方都是口头讲述的。它们出现在电视和电影中。

所以这个问题就是，怎么样讲述一个故事，以及讲故事的形式的重要意义是什么？有什么区别？不同的讲故事形式有什么机会和优势？它是如何从一种形式转变为另一种形式的，或者它发生了变化吗？这有什么意义或重要性？

发言者 1

像这样。在过去，有一本书没署名作者是很常见的。然后在明朝，有一位更像是历史学家，也是一位作家的人，把这个故事正式写在一本书上。他的名字是冯梦龙。那是在明朝。因为那个人正在收集民间故事，想把它们记录下来。

这部分，这部分故事并不那么有趣。这就是为什么，但主要的，我们所说的主题是一样的，但故事本身并不很有趣。它有点平淡。然后，例如，当我们在电视和电影上看的时候，当我妈妈告诉我的时候，故事中加入了更多有趣的故事，例如，女主角秋香非常漂亮和聪明。但在后来创作的电视节目和电影中，他们说，除了秋香，其他女仆都很丑。因为他们说秋香并没有像描述的那么漂亮，因为他们有丑陋的仆人，这就有点像，做出一种更像拿叶子和花朵来比较的那样，让她与其他丑陋的仆人进行比较更有意思。

此外，他们还加入了更多细节，而这些细节在书中并没有展现出来，然后人们又添加了这些细节，让故事更加有戏剧性。例如，当男主角唐伯虎遇到秋香小姐时，秋香正在寺庙里投喂饥饿的人，投喂无家可归的人。在书中，没有这方面的描述。

在电影和电视剧中，他们更多的展现了秋香这个女性角色的性格，使她看起来更善良、美丽和聪明。而且看起来他们所雇佣的女演员也是更加美丽的、迷人的那样子。但在书中，他们没有很多的反映出这些细节的信息。

这部电影首次发行是在 1980 年代。我从来没有看过这部电影。我第一次看到是在 1993 年版的电影中。

之后出现在由香港导演制作的电视剧里。这是 2000 年的事了。2000 年以后，他们有了更多的版本，以便我们可以代代传承。我希望这些回答了你的问题。

发言者 4

是的，Zheng刚才分享的内容是，当她还是个孩子时，她就已经被告知了这个故事，农夫和蛇。当她听到这个故事时，她的第一反应是，哦，我们不能像农夫那样做同样的事情。所以他们有点嘲笑农夫的做法。当她第一次读到这个故事时，她得到的教育意义是，我们应该善待正确的人，远离邪恶的人。所以当她读到这本书时，从一本故事书中，她了解到，善良不能给予每个人。它应该是经过选择的，应该选择给正确的人。之后，她还通过短片和电视，比如动画片了解了这个故事。所以这个故事有很多种讲述方式。

然而，这个故事所传达的意义始终如一，即这个故事的目的是教育孩子们如何给予善意。当她回顾这个故事时，她有一些不同的想法。所以当她把这个故事讲给儿子听时，她有自己的解读，她想和儿子分享。

这是她最喜欢的讲故事方式之一，就像在给别人读农夫和蛇的故事时有自己的解读一样。

发言者 5

哇，太有趣了。下一个问题也与此有关。因为这些故事似乎是围绕着故事所建立和创造的跨代关系展开，这也是你们两个故事的联系点。Kim，你提到你妈妈那一代、你那一代、你的表亲和他们的孩子都知道这个故事。Zheng，你提到你的父母用这样的故事来教育你，你也把这个故事讲给你的儿子听。我们刚刚听到了你对这个故事的解读。我们所有人，Taiko、Bixin 和我，也都有将我们与家人联系起来的故事。那么你认为这些故事如何帮助跨代人建立联系？将故事中的知识传递给后代重要吗？为什么是或不是，或者可能是是和不是，两者兼而有之？你们能告诉我们更多有关于这方面的内容吗？

发言者 1

是的，我们的故事之所以如此受欢迎并代代相传，是因为爱。爱就像一个永恒的话题，就像我们爱着人们，我们与之交谈，我们创作故事，很多故事，还有歌曲和电影。这是一个很受欢迎的话题。所以当我妈妈或其他家庭成员讨论这个话题时，这是一个很有趣的话题。这就是我们谈论它的原因。
另一个重要原因是，它与现实息息相关。在现实中，我们几乎每个人都经历过追求某样东西的经历，如果我遇到了一些困难，我该如何克服它？这些也是非常重要的话题。所以这个故事把爱和坚持不懈联系在一起，以及如何克服我们所遇到的困难。所以，是的，这就是如何我们跟它相联系在一起的，我们肯定会告诉其他人，比如也告诉我的孩子们，因为这很有趣，人们喜欢谈论它。谢谢。

发言者3

所以在开场白中，我只是在想为什么我选择这个主题和这个故事？因为我想做这些事情，保留广东人的东西，让这个故事成为流行，让每个孩子都知道。所以这很重要。当我长大后，我认为这个话题对每个人来说仍然很重要。所以这就是为什么我想分享这个，我的想法或者一丁点的担忧给跨代的每个人。

因为善良一直是一个重要的话题。是的。

是的。我们对分布在世界的广东人有不同的看法，尤其是那些长大后的人，他们仍然在考虑他们需要做什么或不需要做什么，或者只是谈论这个故事，因为这是一种行动。这是你需要继续做的事情。这不仅仅是一个故事，不只是阅读而已。是的。我们只是希望人们能去做更多这样的事情。

我真的很喜欢。

也向新一代提出了一个问题，让他们从过去的时代思考，我们有了一个新的标识，怎么说呢？不同的标识还是不同的东西？

（Zheng用中文对 Bixin说）

发言者 4

因此，如果我们与来自不同国家、不同种族、不同文化、不同背景的人分享同一个故事，我们可能会有不同的看法。我相信人们会从不同的角度进行解读。

发言者 3

是的。我是我的想法。在我给你们讲完以后，我也想听听大家的反馈。也许有人听到我的声音后，可以就这个问题给我一些反馈。是的。

发言者 5

由于您谈到了不同的文化等等，这个故事提醒了我一点。它让我想起了一点罗密欧与朱丽叶。然后是西班牙版的罗密欧与朱丽叶，还有一部《塞莱斯蒂娜》。但在那个故事中，它讲的是一个像女巫一样的女人。她让这两个人坠入爱河，但他们属于不同的社会阶层。所以这是一场悲剧。所以它让我回想起了关于它的这一点。我只是想知道故事的基本内容是如何以不同的方式呈现的，故事中增加了什么，含义如何变化等等。我意识到这是 Kim 的故事。但你关于文化的观点，使我想到那么一点。

发言者 3

他们已经在全世界范围内赢得了广泛支持。他们向全世界传播着同样的想法。但直到现在，现代社会和人们的思维方式都发生了一些变化。因此，我们希望让人们更加关注的是，只做好事就够了，还是只允许人们和好人一起做好事，或者更确切地说，只允许人们和好人一起做好事。这样好吗？能以不同的方式解决或改善我们当前的社会问题吗？这样说讲得通吗？我不知道。所以，Binxin。

（Zheng用中文对 Bixin说）

发言者 4

是的，我同意你的观点。我认为，你知道，可能我们学到的很多东西不一定能奏效。所以我认为真正重要的是，我们需要有自己的理解，发展自己的解释并思考什么能奏效。例如，就像你分享的故事。我认为，尽管它告诉我们，好吧，善意不能给予每个人，尤其是在邪恶的人面前。然而，我认为，当谈到我们当今的社会时，我认为我们不必选择人去做善事，因为这应该是出于我们真诚的意图。

如果我想为别人做好事，我会直接去做，而不是选择谁是好人，跟谁做是对的，因为我觉得那样就失去了分享善意、分享爱的真正目的。我认为做好事应该是无条件的。我想这也是Zheng想要传达给我们的。Zheng，这就是你想和我们分享的吗？

发言者 3

是的，你是一位很好的倾听者并且善于理解。完全是这样。是的，那很好。是的。谢谢你在这里解释了我的一些故事。是的，那很好。谢谢你。

发言者2

是的，Zheng，这个故事确实让我思考了很多关于善恶的问题。我在想蛇在结尾问农夫的问题，他说，我是一条蛇。那么，在这个故事中谁犯了错误？农夫，也许他应该更深入地思考一下自己的行为? 你知道，比如，他是一条蛇。对吧？我不知道它对人们意味着什么。你对其他人及其行为的期望取决于你，而不是他们。对。所以你是唯一一个控制自己行为的人。你无法控制别人做什么。你只能控制自己。事实就是如此，蛇并没有做出邪恶的行为。它只是在做自己。它是一条蛇。是农夫的期望与现实不符。是的，农夫，农夫在那种情况下期待了一些他不应该有期待的事情。

因此，你知道，也许蛇不一定是邪恶的，但它在某种程度上告诉我们，我们需要对自己负责。并且，要明白其他人会做他们想做的事。我们需要从与其他人的关系来思考自己，而不是指望其他人按照我们希望的方式行事。这就是它让我想到那些邪恶的事物，比如蛇是邪恶的，你知道的蛇只是在做蛇会做的事。

发言者 3

嗯。这就是重点。这让我仍然有一个问题。所以到目前为止，如果我想成为农民，那么也许可以给我更多的经验，我们想思考，考虑更多的情况，在做这些事情之前找到一个好的方法，不管怎样，只要随意去做就可以了。所以这是重要的事情。所以你需要找到一个好的方法去做事情。也许还可以保护自己，你可以有更多的时间或更多的机会去做这些事情。

发言者 2

好的。这个问题是关于语言的，以及语言如何真正成为故事的渠道。你们一开始都用普通话讲故事，但除此之外，你们还用英语向我们、你们的朋友和其他多语言社区讲述故事。那么，你认为故事会如何根据所讲的语言或语言组合而改变或保持不变？语言对于传达故事的意义和教育含义是否重要？它重要吗？最后，你希望老师们了解这些故事的哪些方面？有关这些故事中的语言，你会告诉与你一起工作的老师们哪一些呢？

发言者 1

这样对我来说，我既懂英语又懂普通话，我有一点翻译上的困难有关于我的故事真实的发生了什么。他们的语言是肯定的起着非常重要的作用。还有语境，以及西方和中国之间的文化差异。我有一个例子，比如唐伯虎把自己卖给了华府，华府是当地的一个社会地位很高的家庭，就像一个书香门第。所以唐伯虎把自己卖了去做一个仆人。所以我的翻译是，他是一个仆人，但这是一种不同的文化。穷人通常会签一份契约，说，我想成为你的仆人，但我想得到一些钱，比如一次或每月，或者我会这样做工。这更像是雇佣。但一旦你进入这个家庭，你就没有多少自主权或自由了。所以他们会要求你做任何事而且你必须要做。所以这有点像自愿成为的奴隶。所以在中文里，我们可以很轻松地说这是家丁，但在西方文化中，它并不像是奴隶。它不像是黑人那种。你没有任何自由。但是对于这种契约，当你想摆脱它时，你可以将自己买出来。这就是为什么唐伯虎可以很容易地从奴隶契约中把自己买出来，因为他很富有。他来到这里的唯一原因是为了更接近并了解秋香，秋香是一个贫穷的女仆，她也把自己卖给了华家。但因为她很穷，她没有能力把自己买出来。这就是这里仆人和西方形式的奴隶的区别。所以它是独一无二的。所以对我来说，我在翻译的时候遇到了麻烦，我遇到了麻烦。那是男奴隶或女奴隶吗？或者我们只是翻译成仆人或女仆和仆人。所以最后，我不得不放弃我的挣扎，选择仆人和女仆，这样翻译。这与西方文化中的奴隶的含义有些不同。

发言者 2

这是一个非常非常有趣、非常重要且有点困难的翻译，其中涉及很多社会、阶级、财富、种族和文化，所有这些似乎都混杂在一起。这使得翻译非常有意义，也非常困难。我很高兴你提到了这一点并做了进一步解释。

发言者 1

谢谢。是的。所以我希望我能学到更多，而且我的英语仍然是我的第二语言。想进一步提高。我希望将来我能在翻译时给出更好的定义。是的。谢谢。

发言者 5

或者我们也可以结合中文中的一些概念来扩展我们对英语中这些概念的理解，对吧？中文概念也可能让我们更深入地了解这些关系。顺便说一句，这也与性别有关。是的，这非常有趣。谢谢你的分享。

发言者 1

不客气。非常不客气。我非常乐意分享这一点。谢谢。

发言者 3

是的，我同意这一点。我的母语中的语言部分是中文。所以当我用中文读书和讲故事时，效果很好。我的故事《农夫与蛇》很简单，用简单的词语。这很易懂的。但是作为第二语言学习者，我仍然需要用我最好的方式解释我的开场白。所以我们问了最后一个问题。我在做事情。所以我们问了一个问题有关于善有善报恶有恶报。所以在这些句子中，我们有一个非常特殊的词来解释这一点。但在英语中，我需要你，通过人们可以使用更好的或一些介绍，比如我的字典或翻译软件，用它来理解。是的。但如果我只英语去思考，我就不明白英语，不明白翻译内容。它解释了中文的意思。但是它讲不通的。这是不同的。所以用中文来说，它是

（Zheng用中文说话）

很短，就像八个字。但在英语中，我不知道它是讲得通或者讲不通呢。所以这有点儿是我的问题。

发言者 4

是的，我们有很多中国谚语，它们的意思很容易理解。但是，我们可能在英语中找不到相同的表达或短语。有时，我们就是找不到相同的词组，就像Zheng之前分享的这句谚语一样。它的意思是，如果我们做好事，我们会得到善报。如果我们做坏事，那么，同样的也会得到恶报。我相信，也许在所有文化中，这种含义都有不同的表达方式。但我认为，Zheng，你做得很好，因为你试图用自己的方式去诠释。我发现这对表达自己文化的含义非常有帮助，因为每种文化或语言都会带来一些你应该和不应该担心的事情，因为有时候，比如在英语中，我们可能找不到完全相同的表达方式。然而，我们可以使用所有语言来表达相同的含义。

发言者 3

有时在英语中的翻译，他们会解释你想解释的单词或短语的含义。它们非常简单，不会直接解释。它们有成语之类的东西。这真的很不一样。所以在这个故事中，也就是最后一个问题中，我们使用了一点中文短语。这是来自中国的成语。是的。也许英语可以用不同的方式来解释这一点。我从这个故事中学到了一些。

发言者 5

是的。好的。最后，我们来思考一下Zheng提到的内容，关于我们想到的故事如何展现我们的个人经历和个人情感，并为我们提供一种表达自我的方式。

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

致谢

发言者 5

本播客是在华盛顿大学辛普森中心和艺术与科学学院的支持下制作的，并获得了国家人文挑战基金的资助。特别感谢我们的嘉宾慷慨地分享这些故事，这对他们的家庭和社区来说都是宝贵的财富。有关他们的故事以及其他参与该项目的人的更多信息，请访问我们的播客网站translationships.net。我们播客的标题灵感来自Force 11，Open Multilingual和全球学术交流工作组，该工作组挑战全球学术交流界发展更开放、更公平的跨文化、语言、地区、边界、学科和世界观的翻译关系，正如Spence和Brandau 在2021年关于数字人文语言敏感性和多样性的文章中所述。

发言者 2

我们在这个项目中的合作者包括 Eloisa Aguirre、Francisco Siderey 和 Bixin Fu 的语言和教学支持，以及 Frank Macarthy 和 Elliott Steven 的技术和后勤支持。在介绍中，我们引用了 Kimmerer 的“编织甜草、土著智慧、科学知识和植物教学”以及 Joy Harjo 对网站 Living Nations, Living Organs 的介绍。介绍歌曲是 Kermese 对 Mercedes Sosa 的 Balderrama 的混音是一支来自布宜诺斯艾利斯的乐队，由 Fase 和 Gertz（又名 Muno）于 2015 年组建，并获得了创意共享的许可证。

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