storytelling translationships

Watercolor painting done by Lisa

In this episode we talk with Lisa about her story “The Young Man and the Sheep”. We discuss the significance of extending the concept of family and relatives to the natural world. Lisa shares her commitment to supporting community even in busy moments and some connections between storytelling and watercolor painting.

(Cantonese)

[Speaker 1] There was a young man walking in front, holding a sheep with a rope behind him.

[Speaker 2] Welcome to Storytelling Translationships. You were just listening to a clip from Lisa's story, A Young Man, in Cantonese and in English. To hear the full version, please visit our website, translationships.net. I am Taiko Aoki Marcial and my co-host Cristina Sanchez Martin and I sat down with Lisa, who told us more about the story, the importance of understanding our relationships with nature a little bit more like family, and her approaches and commitment to art and language.

Hi, Lisa. We're so happy to sit down with you in person today and talk about your story and your experiences telling it during our workshop. And also welcome Natalie, who is so kindly helping us with the Cantonese language support today. It's great to see you both. We'd like to start off by asking you, Lisa, to introduce yourselves a bit for folks who are listening.

[Speaker 1]  My name is Lisa Wong. I come from Hong Kong. I live in Seattle 14 years. I want to support you. Yeah, your your class. So I I want to come to. Oh, yeah. OK.I try.

[Speaker 2] We really appreciate that. We're really grateful for your support.

[Speaker 1] Thank you.

[Speaker 3] Yeah.

[Speaker 1] I hope I can help you.

[Speaker 3] Yeah, you have already so much.

[Speaker 3] You do. And your noodles were super delicious.vThe noodles that you made the last time.

[Speaker 1] What?

[Speaker 2] No, I think your husband made them.

[Speaker 1] Oh, my husband. Oh, my husband.

[Speaker 3] Delicious anyways.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, my husband.

[Speaker 3] They were so good.

[Speaker 1] I'm not good cook.

[Speaker 2] No? I don't believe you.

[Speaker 1] I seldom cook and my husband cook most of the time. I just sit and help help you.

[Speaker 2] Oh, I love that. I know you are so busy, probably too busy to cook anyway, being involved in so many activities. And you know, one of those activities was the storytelling workshop. So maybe you could tell us now a little bit about the story you shared about the young man and the sheep and why it's meaningful to you.

[Speaker 1] Today, I'm going to tell the storytelling about. My story talk about the sheep with a young man give me a first time feeling about the love.nYeah, it is easy to understand the story. The story talk about a lot of how you give the love and kind and friendly to the animal, yeah. And so it is good for me to tell this story about for the people.

[Speaker 3] Do you want to say a little bit more about the relationship between the man and the sheep and how they're really close? And that seems to be very important in the story. Right? So what does that tell us about the relationship, um, between humans and animals and nature in general?

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 4] Maybe can you explain the question a little bit more about what relationship are you referring to?

[Speaker 3] In the story you said that the that the man had rope.

[Speaker 1] A holder for the sheep.

[Speaker 3] To hold the suit for the sheep, right? The sheep, even though it wasn't tied to the rope anymore, started following the man anyways. Is there is there like, a lesson or is there something that we can learn about love I think you were saying and about that relationship between the man and the sheep and how we relate?

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 1] Oh, like a family, because the man take care the sheep like a family, yeah, to take care he and the sheep. And and give give the sheep a love and care and and like a human feeling. Yeah. The man like a brother and father like that to take care of the sheep. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] So like the. Treating the animal like a family, kind of?

[Speaker 1] Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a family. Yeah. So the sheep feel, oh, yeah, I cannot leave that young man because I feel the man care so the sheep feeling really comfortable with the young men.

[Speaker 2] I like thinking about thinking about animals as as family and vice versa.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2] You know what I mean?

[Speaker 1] Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 2] The next question is still about the story. We're thinking about there was like a joker, right? A guy came in and he was kind of making fun of the old man and he couldn't really understand that relationship between the old man and the sheep. Why do you think the Joker couldn't understand the relationship? Or like, why was he making fun of them? Like, why didn't he see that, that love I guess? 

[Speaker 1] The guy maybe maybe in in his family nobody give care the the other man. The guy he in his family maybe don't care him. So that's why he feel oh just a like you carry the sheep, the sheep follow you. Yeah, just like that.

[Speaker 2] So because he didn't have that relationship, he couldn't.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, get the love and care and family from his family. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] Wow.

[Speaker 3] Do you think that the story, maybe what the young man said taught the joker about other ways of caring for the animals and family, or the animals who can be family and the other way around, like what the young man said to the joker?

[Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 1] Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. The the young man explain to the stranger and so I think the stranger understand. Yeah.

[Speaker 3] Hopefully.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 3] So we had a question about telling the story in Cantonese and in English, because you wrote it down in English and then you told it in Cantonese. Do you think that the story changes depending on the language that you choose to tell it in? Is the language different and do you think that? It is important for the message of the story to tell it in Cantonese or in English or in both.

[Speaker 1] Same meaning. Yeah, yeah. 

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 4] So the message is the same. 

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 1] Maybe Chinese, Chinese a little bit better. Yeah, Chinese a little bit better. Yeah, because Chinese story. Chinese story, not the American. So yeah.

[Speaker 3] So maybe that, do you think that the message is tied to the context that the Chinese people who told the story? And not the American people.

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

Yeah, the context more tied to her cultural background.

[Speaker 1] Yeah.

[Speaker 3] Do you know the story as well?

[Speaker 4] I actually, maybe I've heard something similar in the past, not exactly the same. Yeah, but I got the message.

[Speaker 3] OK.

[Speaker 4] Yeah.

[Speaker 3] Does it also reasoning with you, the idea that culturally the message seems to make more sense in that context?

[Speaker 4] Yes, I would say so. Yeah. Cause like when they talk about like the rope is untied, it made me think of like, you know, when people walking their pets, you know, without like, you know, leash you know, it makes me like remember that, oh, like, you know, if that animal's so attached, you know, to their owner, you know, nothing needs to be attached, you know, because you know, they would just follow like they already have a strong bonding, you know, with each other. Like a family, you know, like the word you chose.

[Speaker 1] Yeah. Family.

[Speaker 4] So, yeah. So like kind of resonates with me about like the story, like this, you know, relationship idea. Yeah.

[Speaker 3] I feel like I have a follow up question because I was just reading about the meaning of relatives and I think it was the late in the 17th or 18th century when relatives, in English it started to mean family members, but before that it wasn't just family members. Do you have the same word in Cantonese for relatives and family members? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

[Speaker 4] I feel like family members are like a broader term, you know, as long as you're related, you know, to that person, then you can consider family members, but like relatives, like you use this term within your family to identify these are in, you know, um, immediate family members and then relatives are extended. Would you agree?

[Speaker 2] Is that the same in Cantonese too? Do you have like separate words for separate words?

[Speaker 4] Yes. Yeah. Separate words. So family members.

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 4] OK, so for Lisa, she uses like family more. Yeah, for me, like I use both kind of depending on the context.

[Speaker 3] And family is a bigger broader term than relatives.

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 4] OK, I see. So for Lisa, her definition of family members is just for immediate family members. Then she'll use the word family member. Yeah, they're all blood related, or relatives are extended.

[Speaker 3] OK Yeah. And for you?

[Speaker 2] I feel like they're interchangeable. Like relatives and family members seem interchangeable. They have like the connotation of like blood ties or marriage or something like that.

[Speaker 3] Or living in the same household, like Molly, my cat.

[Speaker 2] Oh yeah.

[Speaker 3] I think of her as a family member.

[Speaker 2] I think of my cat, yeah, and my dog as family members as well.

[Speaker 3] But not relative, I guess in a different way. I feel like my definition of relative has expanded a lot in the past few years because of conversations we've had. But yeah, it's so interesting, right? That how language, how these terms help us to see these kinds of relationship that maybe we haven't encoded in the language, like they're not part of the actual definition. But then we learned that other people have these definitions.

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 1] Yeah, OK.

[Speaker 3] It's so cool.

[Speaker 2] I think the other thing that we wanted to ask about about the language and like the storytelling and also just your experience learning. Is what do you want your instructors or your teachers to know about about the story, about how you learn, about the differences between Cantonese and English?

[Speaker 1] Oh, total different. Yeah. And English is more difficult.

[Speaker 2] You think so?

[Speaker 1] For me. Yeah. For me, it's very, very hard to remember. Yeah. I don't know how to remember the word. Yeah. Anytime when I learn the English,My husband said, oh, before you already learn. So every time I cannot remember. Yeah, I don't know how to remember the English.

[Speaker 2] But you remember a lot already 

[Speaker 1] Because because simple English. Maybe I understand, but I seldom see that word so. So I don't know how to speak and understand the English. Yeah, really hard for me to remember and speaking this English better. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] But you just said I seldom see that word. It's very, yeah, high English. Do you know what I mean? Like your English is very, very good.

[Speaker 1] Thank you.

[Speaker 2] You know, not many people say I seldom see that word. 

[Speaker 4] Seldom.

[Speaker 3] Or not many people tell a story like the one that you told us that was so interesting in English.

[Speaker 2] So yeah, you think that you want your teachers to, like, help you remember? Is that what something that you want, like from your teachers, like how to remember? Use words or how to use them.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, for I always continue go to class. Yeah many, many quarter and maybe the the class if see the word many time. So maybe I will understand and remember that word. Yeah, easier. If like I go to travel for one Hong Kong and Japan and I totally forgot the English. So oh, just oh, new this, that word. Oh, maybe I cannot remember. And later, later, after maybe a few months, I remember the word. So that's why if if I stop a moment and I come back. Learn the English is so I feel oh the new new everything something like new you for continue continue make my English little bit improved. Yeah I can remember something. Yeah you for your classes, continue, continue, continue. Yeah it's make me remember more.

[Speaker 3] And seeing, for example, seeing on the website where we have your story, seeing that there, do you think that it's helpful? To help you remember to have this. Is that something that would help with the remembering?

[Speaker 1] Yeah, but I don't have time to because I I have to go community center and I go to a class, computer and English class and painting a lot. It's so make me crazy.

[Speaker 3] You do a lot of activities.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, a lot. Yeah. Too much. My friend said stop, stop, stop something. Yeah. It maybe make you sick because I don't have enough sleep. This is important. Sleeping. Yeah. Make me remember everything.

[Speaker 2] Yeah. Sleep is important for your memory.

[Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, so if I don't have enough. So if I learn something I cannot remember, yeah, that's maybe waste my time to spend to learning something I cannot remember. Yeah.

[Speaker 3] What do you tell your friends who tell you to not do so many things? What do you say to them?

[Speaker 3I said I like it.

[Speaker 1] I like, I like go to school, see the classmate and go to a community center, talk to people, say hi, make me feel happy, but cannot sleep well.

[Speaker 2] Sleep is important.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, sleep is important. So now I maybe I thinking about maybe which one I need to drop.

[Speaker 2] Yeah, that's hard. When you have to like let something go.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, let something to go. Sometimes they have class. I saw them less student come. So I I have to support that class. Sometimes I cannot understand, but I said, oh, maybe 50 I little bit understand. So I support them. The people come to attend the classes. So all I feel, I feel good. Oh, yeah. Somebody support that class.

[Speaker 2] That's nice.

[Speaker 3] That's really nice. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] So, like, is that for the conversation class? So you go just so somebody will be there.

[Speaker 1] Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because one Korean classmate asked me to go there. Oh, OK. I support her and go with her to the conversation class. So now every Thursday I go to Northgate library, attend the conversation class. OK.

[Speaker 3] Wow.

[Speaker 1] So make me.

[Speaker 2] To support your friend.

[Speaker 1] Yeah, support my friend. If my friend didn't go, I won't go.

[Speaker 3] You can take a nap during that time.

[Speaker 1] Yeah.

[Speaker 3] Lots of activities. And actually we wanted to ask you about the watercolor painting 

[Speaker 2] Yeah.I think Speaking of all these activities that you have, you and your husband and Christina are all artists, like all like watercolors, right?

[Speaker 1[ Yeah.

[Speaker 2] Yeah. So we're we're wondering, do you see any connection between like. the creative process of painting and then maybe also stories or storytelling? Like is there any connection for you between creating art and telling stories or?

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 1] I copy. Copy the picture. This one.

[Speaker 3] This one you painted?

[Speaker 1] Yeah.

[Speaker 3] It's so pretty.

[Speaker 2] Oh, it is so pretty.

[Speaker 1] I copy.

[Speaker 3] You copy it.

[Speaker 1] I copied a picture.

[Speaker 2] Kind of like the story because the story, I'm just thinking if you when you when you use a painting as a reference and copy, it's still different. The one that you paint, right? It's not exactly the same as the copy and the story that you told is a story that you heard, right? It's like kind of like a copy, but like different because you told it, you know, that that's what I was thinking when you said it's a copy.

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 4] Yeah. So, yeah, the connection that I have for both, for example, for the story that I heard, I would think about the meaning of the story and the story demonstrate like, you know, love, kindness and care, you know, those kind of themes. So like for painting, you know, I also like when I paint, like I would think about like, you know, something abstract about like for example, if I'm painting a bird, you know, like what kind of bird it is like, you know, where does this bird come from and, you know, just kind of think about, you know, the story of the bird and then, you know, also like for example, like the little like cheeks, right. So this cheek is so cute. And you know, I will think about, oh, like who owned this cheek, you know, So like, you know, just think of some kind of story of like those like, you know, painting objects that I'm doing. 

[Speaker 2] Oh, so like giving giving a story to the things in the painting a little bit.

[Speaker 3] I think that's nice.

[Speaker 1] I like learning.

[Speaker 2] Yeah. Clearly you like learning. You're learning so many things. What is your favorite thing about kind of continuing to do so many classes? What do you, I mean, you said that you're really tired and really busy but you keep going. You know, like why why is it important for you?

[Speaker 1] Because it make me confident. Yeah, because when I in my country, I'm poor and seldom no money to go to the school. So now I am here free. Yeah, so I.

[Lisa and Natalie speaking in Cantonese]

[Speaker 4] Yeah, yeah. I want to stay motivated because now I have more free time and, you know, have free resources here. So I just want to just utilize them as much as I can.

[Speaker 1] I'm learning a lot of a lot of things. Yeah, and make me happy. I will tell people, oh, make me happy. Yeah, and give me a confidence. And if somebody talk about something, I know, oh, I learned before. So that's important. Yeah, in my life. Now I'm lucky I'm still alive. Not die. So I can use a cell phone. Yeah and from cell phone I learn a lot of information and can find a lot of problem from the cell phone. I don't need to ask people because the people sometimes very busy cannot explain the question for you. Yeah, so that is important tell the people have to learn learning a lot if you can. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] This podcast has been produced with the support from the Humanities Washington, the University of Washington Simpson Center in the College of Arts and Sciences and the National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge Grant. Special thanks to our guests for generously sharing the treasures that these stories are for their families and communities. More information on their stories and others involved in this project can be found on our podcast website, translationships.net.

[Speaker 3] The title of our podcast was inspired by the Force 11 Open Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication Working Group, which challenges the global scholarly communication community to develop more openly and equitably translationships. Translational relationships across cultures, languages, regions, boundaries, disciplines, and worldviews, as it appears in Spence and Brandau's article towards language sensitivity and diversity in the digital humanities.

[Speaker 2] Our collaborators for this project include language and pedagogical support from Sharlize Poveda, Eloise Aguirre, Francisco Sidere, and Bixin Fu. Technology and logistical support from Frank McCarthy and Elliott Stevens. The intro song is a remix of Mercedes Sosa's Bal de Rama by Kermes, a group from Buenos Aires formed in 2015 by duo Fasce and Gertz, AKA Muna, licensed under the Creative Commons.

In this episode, Wellesh and Aziza talk about their experiences in their countries of origin and in the US and how they see history, family and community. They also share details about the important historical figures from their homes, Woldeab Woldemariam in Eritrea and King Yohannes IV in Ethiopa and how translating and telling these stories created a sense of confidence.

[Speaker 1]

Speaking in Amharic

[Speaker 1]

King of Yohannes was born in 1831 and he died March 10th, 1889, Metemmam Sudan. Emperor of Ethiopia…

[Speaker 2]

Welcome to Storytelling Translationships. You were just listening to a clip of Aziza telling us about King Yohannes IV in Amharic and in English. You can find the full versions of this story in both languages on our website, translationships.net. I'm Taiko Aoki Marcial, and in today's episode of the Storytelling Translationships Podcast, I'm talking to our guests, Aziza and Wellesh, about their lives and about important historical figures that have impacted their countries.

(music)

[Speaker 2]

Wellesh, you want to start?

[Speaker 3]

Aziza start.

[Speaker 2]

Aziza can start.

[Speaker 1]

Okay. Okay. My name is Aziza Mohammed. I was from in Ethiopia. My dad, his name is Masood Mohammed. And then my mom, her name is Herkmu Mohammed Berhan. My dad, he come from Ethiopia. My mom, she was to Eritrea. So, I have six brother and one sister. So my mom, when I was six years old, my mom, she was died that time. I don't know her, but my dad, he told me, she's very nice mom. And then she take care of the kids nicely. And then she's so smart too. And then he loved her so much. And then after my mom, she was died that time, my dad, he's not married another woman. But that time, all of my brothers, they are so young. So everybody, they depend of my dad. So life is so hard for him because he didn't marry, nobody's not helping him, just he worked, and then he come back, he take care of us. So my dad, he's my teacher too, because he told me every day, for his life and my mom's life. So he's so nice personality. And then I love my dad so much. Last year when he was died, it's for me, life is very struggle. I don't know, because he's my everything. If I'm sad, I will call him and then “Dad, just like happened” just like that or something. He advised me a lot. He just like my friend too. I didn't do for him nothing, you know, that's why I'm crying a lot. And then it's too much for me. Life is a struggle for me. 

But Alhamdulillah, I'm okay now. But I love my brothers and then my sister. So we are now independent for other people. Like we do working, we do everybody, they do work like independent. So they do like work harder. And then I'm so happy right now in my life. And then I go to school. I did my duty. And then sometimes I work my friend's salon. If she have customers I'm working with her together. So, I'm so happy right now. Inshallah in the future. Right now I start my school of cooking because I have a future for like three or five years. I have to plan to open my own Ethiopian fusion restaurant. And then because most of the food is so nice and delicious. So like I make for like with other foods, with other cultures. So, like, maybe for other people, I will show them how make combination of with other foods. So, I will make a nice customer too, Inshallah. Next winter, I'll go to school to my accounting. I have to plan just like that. Thank you for you listening to me. Thank you, teacher. Thank you, Wellesh.

[Speaker 2]

Yeah, of course.

[Speaker 3]

Thank you. It's very nice.

[Speaker 2]

That’s so, it's very nice. I think that there are many good Ethiopian restaurants, but it's interesting to think about a fusion, right? Because many good Ethiopian restaurants, but I don't think I know any Ethiopian fusion restaurants, you know, that have like different stuff. So that's a that's a good idea. Interesting idea, Aziza. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]

Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Speaker 2]

You're welcome. Hi, Wellesh.

[Speaker 3]

Okay, hi. Okay, thank you very much for this chance give me. My name is Wellesh Gebrekristos. I am an Eritrean. I am married and a mother of three children. I have in Seattle area with my husband and my two children. I have a happy family. I am working in the University House as a food worker. I love my co-workers. When I come, I came from my country to the USA. I wanted to improve my English. A friend told me about Literacy Source. There in Literacy Source, I improved my English. I improved my English it helped me to, to community with people and my co-worker. So I wanted to say thank you to Literacy Source and to all my teachers. Thank you for listening.

[Speaker 2]

All right, so now going back, Aziza, maybe you could start and just kind of, you don't have to tell the whole story, but like a short summary of what you shared in the class? Like just a short version of your story so that people who haven't heard it yet can understand? 

[Speaker 1]

Okay. My history was as a Yohannes IV. I like, because he's a very nice king. And then he was born in Tigray. And then he's born on July 1937. And then he died in March 10, 1889. He fight with, you know, the Sudan Mahdist or, and then with Italian too, because the Italian, they come like the takeover Ethiopia, but they don't, they cannot take for like, they do like warn something, but as Yohannes he's doing like they do military for the, he do train to military and then he's very, how can I do explain? Because I'm sorry.

[Speaker 2]

No, that's okay.

[Speaker 1]

Last time I knew a lot of things, but I forget right now.

[Speaker 2]

No, that's no problem. I read a little bit more about the King Yohannes and I read that he was a very like skilled, he had a lot of military strategy so that he was able to kind of push away the people who were trying to come into the territory, like the Italians at the time and Egyptians, right?

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, no, Mahdist Sudan, Mahdist yeah.

[Speaker 2]

Okay, that's who. Yeah.

[Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

Oh, thank you. Thank you, Aziza.

[Speaker 1]

Thank you so much.

[Speaker 2]

And Wellesh, you also, you are also talking about a person from history. Can you say just like a short little bit about them as well?

[Speaker 3]

Woldeab Woldemariam.  It is the first freedom, yeah, in the Eritrean independence.

[Speaker 2]

Okay.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

All right.

[Speaker 3]

He's very struggled people, yeah.

[Speaker 2]

All right. Well, going into a little bit more about how did you, your memories or details around the story, like how did you learn this story? Who did you hear it from? Where were you? Who told it to you?

Wellesh and Aziza speaking in Amharic

[Speaker 3]

Oh. I because is many Eritrean peoples and the any meeting any about talk about in Eritrean independence. Who is started it? Like that, is this guy, this guy, this is many. It is told me in my families and I yeah. It's that time I I living in in Ethiopia. 

[Speaker 2]

All right, so then I was going to ask Aziza kind of a similar question, you know, like when did you first hear this story? Who did you hear it from? Like where?

[Speaker 1]

First, I hear my dad, he told me about of him. He's a very strong guy, and then he told me, nice things, like he protect for Ethiopia too. So after a while, when I go to school too, they teach us like history classes. And then my teacher, he told about of, he's very strong guy. I learned more in school too. My dad, he told me some history. And then after all, my teacher, he teach me a lot. 

[Speaker 2]

Well, then I was wondering, when we were doing our classes, you both told your stories in Amharic and in English, right? What was that like? Was it similar to tell the story in Amharic and English? Did something change? How did that process go?

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, like maybe the words, you know, sometimes now I'm talk like easy way, like it's not formal, you know, about like I reading the about of his history and then it's formal and I change to translate in English. I think the last time was so, kind of a little bit different, I think.

[Speaker 2]

So first in Amharic, it was like not so formal and just conversation. And then you looked up some information and made it more formal and then translated it as well.

[Speaker 1]

Yes.

[Speaker 2]

Wellesh, when we were in the class, you know, and you were telling the story in Amharic and then in English and then writing a little and explaining. How was that? Was it similar? Was it different? Did something change as you told the story in different languages?

[Speaker 3]

No, you send me in the translator, it's good.

[Speaker 2]

Oh, right. The translated one, it was the same?

[Speaker 3]

The same, yeah. 

[Speaker 2]

How was it? But the first part, when you were translating for yourself from, in your mind, you know, like you had the story in Amharic and then you were saying it in English, writing it in English. How was that? Was there certain things that were easier or more difficult? Were there words that were difficult to translate? Like how did it feel to try and translate that story into English?

[Speaker 3]

It was good because I see and my husband too. My husband is translator, so it's a good translator like that, he told me. Yeah, it is. I understand that many people is understanding about that. Yeah, good, good understanding for English and come back in the Amharic. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

Did you talk about it with your husband, like during the class when you were when you were coming to class and stuff?

[Speaker 3]

Oh, yeah. Again, he is he is he in the translating you send me in the same. Yeah, it's good. It's good translator. Yeah, it's nice.

[Speaker 2]

Okay, good. All right. More questions. So both of you, in your story, Aziza, you said he's important because he protected his country from outside powers like Egypt or Italy and Wellish. You said that he was one of the original kind of proponents of Eritrean independence. Right? So can you say maybe something more about what these outside powers like Italy or Egypt or Britain or maybe even the US have done in the area in Ethiopia, in Eritrea?

[Speaker 1]

That time as Yohannes, he live in Tigray, like out of the border of Ethiopia. So, of course they come that side. So he's a military too. So, he like, he, you know, he train of the people like military and then he like defended the country against extra, prepated to Egyptian and then Italian and Mahdist too. So, especially Italian, they need to colonize to Ethiopia. They need to colonize, but they didn't do colonize to Ethiopia because the inside force is very high. You know, the Italian force, like they fight war, like they were on the, you know, the gun or something. But inside of the King of Yohannes, they fight like, I don't know, what they call, you know, the, not the gun, (speaking Amharic to someone in the background) but sword, they fight with sword. They don't have like gun or something.

[Speaker 2]

Yeah, I read a little bit about both of these people. Yeah. And I'd learned that they really wanted, they wanted to unify their people, right? In different ways so that the people would be strong and together. And there was a lot of difficulty, you know, for both of them.

[Speaker 3]

Very, very difficult. Yeah, yeah. It's very, the Eritrean’s history is very, very, very, very, very hard passes because this before Ethiopia and Italian England in the like yeah after that Ethiopia again is in together is push after that he's in struggles with many peoples is die the the peoples like honey like what is honey the like bees, like bee and like, is out in the like the bee.

[Speaker 2]

Like bees? 

[Speaker 3]

Bees, yeah, bee. Yeah, bee is like honey stuff, bee.

[Speaker 2] 

Yeah, yeah, like bees. Bzzzzz.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a people's, maybe Eritrea, any neighborhood thing like Ethiopia, maybe is touch in Eritrea and the peoples is together is like bees.

[Speaker 2]

Like many bees coming?

[Speaker 3]

Yes. Yeah

[Speaker 2]

I see.

[Speaker 3]

Oh, yeah. I don't know English word. Sorry. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

No, that's okay. That's very interesting.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

So the other question I had, these are both like really famous people. King Yohannes and Woldeab Woldemariam, but I was wondering, or Cristina and I are wondering, are there other maybe not so famous people or other people who you think are important in the history of your community and the history of your areas and the history of your language who aren't so famous or people that you know, people in your community that have protected or made people stronger, you know, something like that.

[Speaker 3]

Oh, yeah. It's my brothers too, and live in Seattle. He's living is a long time this place. So he is very, very, very struggle about community and especially in the church of the community in the Americas Church. The Americas is the Orthodox Church in the Eritrean Church. So is help in the old peoples and the childs. More important is for childs. He's the always Saturday, all day and he teach in the peoples in the her language, her culture, her, and family, fathers and mothers. How do you do, her fathers? You, where are you going? It's before, after class. And like that is teaching is. Maybe one day I show you because the Saturday is many people is very tight that class in the about the class.

[Speaker 2]

In church? 

[Speaker 3]

Participate. Yeah, yeah. I show you. Maybe one day is I visit you. I show you. 

[Speaker 2]

I would love that. What are your thoughts, Aziza? Somebody, maybe in the past or maybe right now, people who maybe aren't so famous but are doing, who are important, who are protected, maybe an artist, a musician, or like Wellesh said, somebody in the family, a volunteer, elders, people who share knowledge and experience so it's not forgotten?

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, you know, I think that's why in education in Ethiopia, you know, they teach you like detail about of the king of the day, what they did, what they work in, and how they protect the country, they teach you a lot. We teach us, on the Wellesh, she say in a church, in a different area, they teach like how they come, how they protect the country. So, right now the technology is very high and then they in the Wikipedia, they know everything of the history. So people now they search and then they teach us more and you have to do listen and then watch and Google it, some idea of your country, kingdom, what they did. Especially me, I talk with the other people. So, they do like that, they do like that because I'm not forget for the history too. Because we do, we talk about a lot of things. 

[Speaker 2]

Yeah, so people, not just people can research, people can use technology like Google and Wikipedia to learn about their own history as well. Yeah?

[Speaker 1]

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

Is there anything else that you, from the classes or from the stories or from the experience in the class that you remember that you think is important or that you have questions about?

[Speaker 3]

And last class in this class is, it's very good, very important thing because every history you see in anything, because before I didn't see, I listen anything in this past. So right now is it teach and together in this, like this, like me and Aziza, you in conversation is very good. It's for me is very good because, I maybe the future development is like that is histories I see is any histories I read. I read. I read Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

Mhm. I love it.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah, it is good. Yeah, it is class is very nice because before I didn't see that. Right now is I see anything is see is I'm focused before I just past in I see in the past that like that.

[Speaker 2]

I'm happy about that, Wellesh.

[Speaker 1]

Yeah. Me too, teacher, the same of Wellesh. Because even here, you know now the history, what they did, more you learn about in Google, you search it and then you read it, more you gathering information. So me too, I'm not talk about too much to before, like people they ask me before, Where you from? I'm from Ethiopia, or OK. People, they don't ask me. I didn't talk about for the kingdom of the history, what they did, how they become now like, and it's not colonized to Africa, Libya and Ethiopia. So, we we talk we talk about for the information too I will I will talk them now, I give it to them now confidently. I talk about the history, yeah.

[Speaker 2]

That's wonderful.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah. Right now is good confidence. 

[Speaker 1]

Yeah. After the class, I make a confidence still more.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. It's very nice.

[Speaker 2]

That's wonderful.

(music)

———————————————————

Credits

[Speaker 2]

This podcast has been produced with the support from Humanities WA, the University of Washington Simpson Center and the College of Arts & Sciences and a National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge Grant. Special thanks to our guests for generously sharing the treasures that these stories are for their families and communities. More information on their stories and others involved in this project can be found on our podcast website, translationships.net.

[Speaker 4]

The title of our podcast was inspired by the Force 11 Open, Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication (OMG) working group, which challenges the “global scholarly communication community [to] develop more openly and equitably “trans-lationships” (translational relationships) across cultures, languages, regions, boundaries, disciplines and worldviews” (Del Río Riande, Lujano, and O’Donnell 2020) as it appears in Spence and Brandao’s article “ Towards Language Sensitivity and Diversity in the Digital Humanities.”

[Speaker 2]

Our collaborators for this project include language and pedagogical support from Shariliz Poveda, Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Siderey, and Bixin Fu; technology and logistical support from Frank Macarthy and Elliott Stevens. 

The intro song is a remix of Mercedes Sosa’s Balderrama by Kermesse, a group from Buenos Aires, formed in 2015 by duo, Fase and Gurtz (aka Muno) licensed under the creative commons. 

In this episode we talk with Claire about her lunar new year monster story, its themes of fear and generosity and why the color red and fireworks are so closely linked with this celebration. We also discuss language difference and connection, and fascinating concepts like Tao that can teach us more about living well with others.

[Speaker 1]

Speaking in Mandarin

[Speaker 1]

The Legend of the Nian Beast: Once upon a time, according to legend, in ancient China, there was a monster called Nian who lived deep in the sea all year round…

(music)

[Speaker 2]

Welcome to Storytelling Translationships. You were just listening to a clip from Claire's story, Lunar New Year, in Mandarin and in English. To hear the full version, please visit our website, translationships.net. I am Cristina Sánchez-Martín and my co-host Taiko Aoki-Marcial and I sat down with Claire who told us more about the story, the possibilities of connecting these by language differences, and fascinating concepts like Tao that can teach us more about living well with others.

[Speaker 3]

All right, Claire, thank you so much for coming and speaking with us today. I think maybe we can start off by just, can you tell us a little bit about who you are, your name, you know, where you're from, anything else that you think you want to share with people who are listening?

[Speaker 1]

Okay. Hi, my name is Claire. I'm from Taiwan. I have been to America for seven months, seven to eight months. I love to live in Seattle because this city is really beautiful.

[Speaker 2]

Me too. Okay, so during the winter, we learned about storytelling and you told a story, Lunar New Year, right? Can you tell us a little bit more about it? Can you provide a short summary of what the story is about for those who haven't read it or listened to it yet?

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, no problem. I would like to ask everyone, do you know why Chinese people would like to decorate their home in red or why they always wear red color and display firework during Chinese New Year? There's a very good reason, because there's a legendary story that once upon a time, there is a Nian monster, always attacked people on every Chinese New Year's Eve. And one day, a wise man who visit a village and to beg for some food when the villager escaped from the monster. He told a woman who was the only person to help him that he can drive away the monster if let him stay her house for one night. And why the Nian monster went away because he was afraid of the red color and the firework sound. So, after that, people started to follow a wise man’s suggestion and wear red clothes and display firework to keep all beasts away. And next day, they visited their friends and congratulate their friends in the first of New Year. That's why people, why Chinese people love to wear red color and display fireworks.

[Speaker 3]

I learned, I always, I knew that red was really important for the new year in Chinese New Year and Lunar New Year, that red was like a really special color and really important. But I never knew kind of the story behind that until you told that story. So thank you.

[Speaker 1]

You're welcome. I'm happy to tell everyone this great story.

[Speaker 3]

Can you also tell us maybe your memories around the story and the details of the story? Like when did you first hear it? Who did you hear it from? Like where were you? What is the context in which this story kind of came to you in the first place?

[Speaker 1]

I don't remember exactly, but I think I heard this story when I was in elementary school. I think I knew this story from the book, which I borrowed from my neighbor. When I was young, my neighbor, my neighbor's parents always buy a lot of a books for my neighbor. And because I really love to read stories. So I borrow from them and then they have one story that is this story. So, and also, I think one day I have ever asked my grandma about why we display fireworks during Chinese New Year and why we need to wear red color, why we have a red envelope, something about the question I asked my grandpa and grandma. And then my grandma and grandpa taught me, we do that, they will give a good fortune. Yeah. It will bring good fortune to us. But maybe they don't know the reason. So after that, I read the story. So I just realized, oh, because there is a Nian monster story. So that's why people wear red color. Yeah.

[Speaker 3]

Are there other are there other stories about, is the Nian monster is this like a character or you know like is this a figure that appears in other places in other stories or is it just in the story this monster?

[Speaker 1]

Only in this this story. It's interesting, right?

[Speaker 3]

Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

Yeah. There is a student in the program where I teach from Taiwan as well, who gave me a children's book about the red envelopes and about the red color too. And it's written in Mandarin and in English so that I could read it. Yeah, I want to show it to you at some point, because it's really beautiful.

But speaking about that, we wanted to ask what it meant to you to tell the story in Mandarin and in English, since you told the story in both languages. And was the retelling process similar or different? Did anything change when you were telling the story in English as opposed to Mandarin? And what would you tell the teachers that you work with about this process of retelling the story in different languages?

[Speaker 1]

I think most of the part are similar. When we describe a story, they will, the word describe a sound or describe like a poetry. And it is hard to translate in English. So sometimes it's quite hard to describe. I only can use a similar. But actually, it is not 100% then in Chinese. Yeah. Yeah, but it happened because some of words, we cannot translate.

[Speaker 2]

Do you remember any specific examples? It's okay if you don't. But just thinking back maybe.

[Speaker 1]

I didn't remember that. Maybe I can find it. Like, okay, letter sound like called Ping Ping Pam Pam. Ping Ping Pam Pam. This is a sound, sound word in Chinese. It describes firework, firework displaying. But it's hard to translate in English. Like ping ping pam pam, do you have a ping ping pam pam this sound in English? Yeah, that is one. Oh, and there is one word as Chinese called people shouting and horse also shouting. That actually is poetry. But this word, this sentence is also hard, hard to translate in English. If I translate each of words, there will be people shouting, horse shouting, but it's not correct to translate each of words, right? So like this sentence, I don't know how to describe in English. I only can say I describe like chaos. People run around and the situation like chaos, something like that.

[Speaker 3]

That's so interesting. I want to, what is the word? How do you say the word that is people shouting and horses shouting?

[Speaker 1]

In Chinese we call  人 (rén), 喊 (hǎn), 马 (mǎ) 嘶（sī）

[Speaker 3]

Four words. 

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, four words 人 (rén) mean is people. 喊 (hǎn) mean is shouting, screaming. 马 (mǎ) horse. 嘶（sī） mean is horse is shouting. So these words are hard. How can I describe horse shouting in English?

[Speaker 3]

I think you did. I mean, the idea of chaos, you know, when I think about like people, you know, like people shouting and horse shouting, I think the way you described it makes a lot of sense, like that idea of, you know, like chaos and...

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, it's the one there's one example. It's not a good example, but it’s similar. Can you imagine 911? When 9911 happened, it is chaos, right? And you can imagine so many people and even animal run away and shouting for help. And maybe dog barking or yeah, because it's very chaos. This has just come to my mind.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah, that is a good example of chaos for sure.

[Speaker 1]

Some of Chinese words are hard to exactly translate in English. Yeah, I only just can, only can use a similar meaning.

[Speaker 3]

Going back to what Cristina was asking just a little bit, like, keeping that in mind, like how difficult it is, you know, to translate certain ideas or certain words. What do you think your, your teachers or like English teachers that you work with should know or how should they keep this in mind when, when you're talking about stories or talking about language or talking about translation?

[Speaker 1]

I think, in this case, I would ask my teacher, does it have a similar story or similar meaning in Western country that I can refer to or use to explain my story? So people can, when people read my story in English version, if they have a reference, they may more understanding what I'm talking about. Yeah, because they have a story from their country and which they be familiar. Oh, that's what you want to describe. Your culture, your story. Yeah, but maybe, yeah, maybe there's no exactly the same story in Western side, but if, if have that will be that would be great.

[Speaker 3]

I like that idea of just like seeing if there's connections that people can make to, you know, like to the to what they already know to like understand a new story better, even if it's not always possible, you know, I like that idea a lot.

[Speaker 2]

Okay, moving on to the next question. We see that in the story, community and relationships seem to be important themes. For example, at first, everyone in the community except for one old woman ignores the old man who comes asking for food and shelter, but this old man is the only one who ends up knowing how to keep the village safe. So does this story help us to understand how people can be in relationship to others, both strangers as well as friends and family, and how so?

[Speaker 1]

I would say people, because people, most, some of people, they don't have enough wisdom to solve the problem, even though no matter connect with people. That's why you can see more and more people, they have a less and less true heart, less and less considerate other people's feelings, yeah. So in this story, people only care about whether they're sad, care about their life. That's not wrong thing, but if you can also consider others and our society, our country, or our neighborhood, will be, will be better, right? So there is one word we call the virtuous, virtuous cycle, right? So this story also teach people, need to care not only yourself, but also others, right? So like the wise man, in this story, there's a one wise man, actually he saved everyone's life, right? People no need to escape every Chinese New Year's Eve after finding a solution. So… 

[Speaker 2]

That makes sense.

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, so I think in this story lens, I found that there also have not only, not only tell everyone about Chinese culture, but also teach people you need to be very kind and and see the right to your, to others. 

[Speaker 3]

That's a great thing. I guess that goes kind of to, that goes kind of to our last question or the question that we're gonna think about next, which is, what do you think is important about sharing the story? Or what do you think, what do you want people who listen to it or to read it, what do you want them to take away from it?

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, this great story to teach people. Most people, most of people choose to escape mentally when they make difficulties. In fact, the correct attitude is to find a solution or correct method to fundamentally solve it, right? Otherwise, you cannot always just, always to escape or hide the problem, right? You need to face it and look at it and solve it. So in Chinese, we call this is Tao. The Tao is from nature. When you see someone need to help and just help because that is from your nature of heart. So we call Tao. Yeah. 

And how to inspire people? I think people need to learn, to find a way, to find a class, to learn. Then spread to others, spread your good mind to others. So that's why I also study something about Tao, something about how to, what is the correct way to be a right person. Yeah.

[Speaker 2]

That's so beautiful. I love those takeaways. It's giving me a lot to think about and to try to do better as well.

[Speaker 3]

Yeah, it makes me also want to explore more about that idea. I know I've heard the, you know, like the concept of Tao before. It makes me want to explore and learn more about that concept and that idea, because it seems so important.

[Speaker 1]

Yes.

[Speaker 3]

Well, that's a great-- I think that's a great final idea or message to leave it on.

[Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Speaker 1]

Yes.

(music)

———————————————————

Credits

[Speaker 3]

This podcast has been produced with the support from Humanities WA, the University of Washington Simpson Center and the College of Arts & Sciences and a National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge Grant. Special thanks to our guests for generously sharing the treasures that these stories are for their families and communities. More information on their stories and others involved in this project can be found on our podcast website, translationships.net.

[Speaker 2]

The title of our podcast was inspired by the Force 11 Open, Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication (OMG) working group, which challenges the “global scholarly communication community [to] develop more openly and equitably “trans-lationships” (translational relationships) across cultures, languages, regions, boundaries, disciplines and worldviews” (Del Río Riande, Lujano, and O’Donnell 2020) as it appears in Spence and Brandao’s article “Towards Language Sensitivity and Diversity in the Digital Humanities.”

[Speaker 3]

Our collaborators for this project include language and pedagogical support from Shariliz Poveda, Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Siderey, and Bixin Fu; technology and logistical support from Frank Macarthy and Elliott Stevens. 

The intro song is a remix of Mercedes Sosa’s Balderrama by Kermesse, a group from Buenos Aires, formed in 2015 by duo, Fase and Gurtz (aka Muno) licensed under the creative commons. 

在本集節目中，我們將與克萊兒暢談她農曆新年怪獸的故事，探討其恐懼與仁慈的議題，以及為什麼紅色和鞭炮會與這個節日如此的緊密連結。我們也探討語言的差異與連結，以及像「道」這樣富有意涵的理念，讓我們從中學習良善、學習如何與他人和諧共處。

[講者1]

國語演講

今天我要說中國年為何家家戶戶穿紅色的衣服、貼春聯、放鞭炮的來由。

相傳中國古時候有種叫做「年」的怪獸，長年深居在海底…

[講者1]

英文演講

年獸的傳說：很久很久以前，相傳中國古時有種叫做「年」的怪獸，牠長年居住在深海中…

（音樂）

[講者2]

歡迎收聽「故事翻譯」（Storytelling Translationships）。您剛剛聽到的是克萊兒(Claire)分享的《農曆新年》國語和英文的故事片段。如想聽完整故事內容，歡迎造訪我們的網站 translationships.net。

我是克莉絲蒂娜.桑切斯.馬丁(Cristina Sánchez-Martín)，我與共同主持人 太子.青木-馬西奧爾（Taiko Aoki-Marcial）一起訪談了克萊兒（Claire），她不僅分享了更多關於這個故事的背景，也談到語言差異下如何將彼此連結的可能性，以及像「道」這樣富有哲理的概念，能帶給我們更多關於與人和諧共處的啟發。

[講者3]
好的，Claire，非常感謝妳今天來跟我們分享。我想我們可以先從自我介紹開始，你可以簡單介紹一下你自己嗎？像是你的名字、你來自哪裡，還有任何你覺得想讓聽眾了解的事情都可以喔！

[講者 1]

好的，大家好，我叫克萊兒（Claire），我來自台灣。我來美國大約七、八個月了。我很喜歡住在西雅圖，因為這個城市真的很漂亮。

[講者 2]
我也很喜歡西雅圖。好的，那在冬季的時候，我們學了關於「說故事」的課程，而你分享了一個關於農曆新年的故事，對吧？

你可以再多跟我們聊聊這個故事嗎？也請你簡單幫大家介紹一下這個故事的內容，讓還沒讀過或聽過的人能夠有些概念。

[講者 1]
沒問題。首先我想先問大家一個問題：你們知道為什麼中國人在過年的時候喜歡用紅色裝飾家裡，或者為什麼大家都會穿紅色、放鞭炮嗎？這其實有一個很特別的原因，是來自一個遠古的傳說故事。

從前從前，有一隻叫做「年」的怪獸，每到除夕夜就會出來攻擊人們。有一天，一位智者來到一個村莊，想要討點食物吃，那時候村民們正在逃避年獸。只有一位婦人願意幫助他。這位智者就告訴她，如果讓他在她家住一晚，他有辦法把怪獸趕走。

結果真的成功了！原來「年獸」害怕紅色和鞭炮的聲音。從那之後，大家就開始照著智者的建議做，穿紅色衣服、放鞭炮來嚇走怪獸。

除夕隔天，也就是新年的第一天，人們就會去拜訪親友，互相道賀平安。這就是為什麼中國人在過年時喜歡穿紅色、放鞭炮的原因。

[講者 3]
我一直知道紅色在農曆新年很重要，是一個很特別而且很有象徵意義的顏色。但我一直都不知道背後原來有這個故事，直到你講了以後我才了解。謝謝你分享。

[講者 1]
不客氣！我很開心能跟大家分享這麼棒的故事。

[講者 3]
你能不能跟我們分享一下你對這個故事的記憶和細節？比如說，你第一次聽到這個故事是在什麼時候？是誰跟你說的？當時你在哪裡？這個故事最初是怎麼出現在你生命中的？

[講者 1]

我不太記得確切時間，但我想我是在小學的時候聽到這個故事的。我想應是從鄰居家借的書裡知道這個故事。小時候鄰居的爸媽常常買很多書給他們，因為我很愛看故事書，所以我經常跟他們借書。其中有一本書裡面有這個故事。

還有，有一次我問過我的奶奶，為什麼過年要放鞭炮、為什麼要穿紅色衣服，還有紅包是怎麼來..等等相關問題，爺爺奶奶就跟我說，我們這樣做是為了招來好運氣，我猜他們大概也不太知道背後的原因。

後來我看了那個故事才知道，原來是因為年獸的傳說，所以大家才會在過年穿紅色衣服、放鞭炮。

[講者 3]

還有其他關於年獸的故事嗎？年獸是一個特定的角色嗎？還是說它會出現在其他故事或地方？還是年獸只有在這個故事裡特有的呢？

[講者 1]

就只有出現在這個故事裡耶。蠻有趣的對吧？

[講者 3]

是的。

[講者 2]

對啊，我教的課程裡也有一位來自台灣的學生，他送了我一本關於紅包和紅色意義的兒童繪本。那本書是中英文對照的，讓我也能閱讀。我很想哪天跟你分享，因為它真的很漂亮。

說到這個，我們也想問問你，用中文和英文講這個故事，對你來說有什麼特別的意義嗎？因為你是用兩種語言講這個故事。在重述故事的過程，兩種語言有什麼相似或不同的地方嗎？有沒有什麼改變？或讓你特別有感的地方？

另外，你會怎麼跟你合作的老師們分享或建議，用不同語言重新講故事的過程？

[講者 1]

我覺得大部分的內容是差不多的。不過在講故事的時候，有些詞是用來形容聲音，或者有點像詩、成語的那種語感，這種就比較難翻譯成英文。所以有時候要表達就會有點困難，我只能用差不多意思的詞來代替，但其實沒有辦法百分之百傳達中文原本的感覺。
對啊，因為有些字真的就是沒辦法翻得那麼精準。

[講者2]

你還記得有沒有什麼具體的例子嗎？如果不記得也沒關係，就回想看看。

[講者 1]

我現在想不起來，不過也許我可以再去找找看。喔，像有一個例子，就是那個「砰砰啪啪」的聲音，「砰砰啪啪」這是中文裡形容炮竹燃燒的聲音，是一種擬聲詞。但將這聲音翻成英文就很難。英文有「砰砰啪啪」這種聲音嗎？這就是一個例子。

還有一句是中國成語「人喊馬嘶」，這句要翻成英文也很難。如果我逐字翻譯的話，就會變成「人叫、馬叫」，可是這樣的翻法是不對的，意思會跑掉。所以像這種句子，我就不知道該怎麼用英文表達，我只能大概描述為-是一種混亂的場面，人們跑來跑去、到處逃命的場面，類似這樣的感覺。

[講者 3]

哇，這真的很有趣。我想知道，那個詞是什麼？就是你說的「人喊馬叫」那個詞，要怎麼說？

[講者 1]

中文裡我們說「人（rén）、喊（hǎn）、馬（mǎ）、嘶（sī）」。

[講者 3]

四個字。

[講者 1]

對，四個字。「人」（rén）是人，「喊」（hǎn）是叫喊、尖叫的意思，「馬」（mǎ）是馬，「嘶」（sī）就是馬叫的聲音。所以這幾個字真的很難翻。像「馬嘶」這個要怎麼翻成英文？「馬在叫」英文應怎麼說才比較自然？

[講者3]

我覺得你有表達出來耶。就是那種混亂的感覺，像你說的，大家都在喊叫啊，連馬也都在嘶吼，你用「混亂」來形容那個情境，真的非常貼切，也讓人很容易理解你想表達的意境。

[講者 1]

對，我剛好想到一個例子，雖然不是一個很好的例子，但感覺是類似的。你可以想像 911 發生的時候，那種場面就是一種混亂，對吧？你可以想像有很多人，甚至動物，都在逃命、呼喊求救，狗狗可能也一直吠叫之類的，整個現場就是一片混亂。我剛剛突然想到這個畫面。

[講者3]

對，這確實是一個非常典型的混亂場面的例子。

[講者 1]

有一些中文的詞真的很難準確地翻成英文，我只能用意思相近的詞來表達。

[講者3]

回到剛剛 Cristina 問的問題，想到你剛才提到有些想法或詞彙真的很難翻譯，那你覺得你的老師，或者是跟你一起工作的英文老師，，應該知道些什麼？又或者他們在談論故事、語言或翻譯的時候，應該要怎麼意識、看待這些困難呢？

[講者 1]

我覺得在這種情況下，我會詢問老師，西方國家有沒有類似的故事或意涵可以參考，用來幫助我解釋自己的故事。因為如果大家在讀英文版本故事時，有一個他們熟悉的故事可以參照，可能會更容易理解我想表達的是什麼。因為他們能聯想到自己文化中熟悉的故事，就會領悟「喔，原來你想描述的你的文化、你的故事原來是這個。」

雖然可能在西方文化中不會有完全一樣的故事，但如果有類似的，那真的會很有幫助。

[講者3]

我很喜歡這個想法，就是透過讓人們將他們原本熟悉的事物與新的故事建立連結，這樣就能更好地理解一個新的故事。雖然不一定每次都能成功找到，但我還是很喜歡這個概念。

[講者2]

好的，接下來進入下一個問題。在這個故事裡，其實可以感覺到「社群」跟「人際關係」是很重要的主題。像一開始，整個村子裡除了那個老婆婆，其他人都不理會那個來乞求食物和住宿的老人，但最後卻只有這個老人知道如何保護整個村莊。所以這個故事是不是也幫助我們去思考人跟人之間的關係？無論是對陌生人，還是朋友和家人，你覺得這個故事是怎麼呈現這個觀點的呢？

[講者1]

我認為這個故事其實是想讓我們思考「人」本身。因為現實中，很多人在面對問題時，缺乏足夠的智慧，特別是在處理人際關係方面。這就是為什麼你會看到，越來越多人缺乏真誠，越來越少人去體諒別人的感受。

在這個故事裡，村民們只關心自己的生命與感受，這樣的行為本身並沒有錯，但如果大家也能多考慮別人、多關心社會、國家或鄰里，那我相信生命的本質與社會整體會變得更好，對吧？

這其實也呼應了一個概念，就是「良性循環」。我認為這個故事的價值就在於，它提醒大家：我們不只是要照顧自己，也要關心別人。像故事中那位智者，最後正是因為他的智慧與善舉，才讓整個村莊得以平安，從此村民不需要在每年的除夕夜逃離家園。

[講者2]

這很有道理。

[講者1]
是的，透過這個故事，我認為它不僅是在介紹中國文化，同時也在教導人們慷慨善良，關懷他人的重要性。

[講者3]

這真的是很棒觀點。我想這也呼應我們最後一個問題，或者說與我們接下來要討論的最後一個問題，那就是：你覺得分享這個故事有什麼重要的意義？或者說，您希望聽眾或讀者能從中獲得什麼樣的啟發或收穫？

[講者1]

是的，這確實是一個非常有啟發性的故事，可以教導人們一些重要的道理。現實生活中，大多數人在遇到困難時，往往會選擇心靈上逃避。但其實，正確的態度應該是去尋找解決的方法，從根本地面對和處理問題。如果只是一直逃避、掩蓋問題，那問題永遠無法真正被解決。我們應該要學習面對困難，正視問題，並積極地尋求解決方法。

在中華文化，我們稱這樣的理念為「道」。道是來自自然。就像當你看到有人需要幫助時，你會出自內心去幫助他，那就是一種順著本心而行的自然，我們稱之為「道」。

那要怎麼啟發別人呢？我覺得人需要學習，要去找方法，去上課，透過學習來成長。然後再把這些好的想法、正向的心念傳遞給其他人。

這也是為什麼我自己也在學習一些與「道」相關的知識，學習什麼是正確的做人處事態度，什麼才是「對」的人生道路。

對，就是這樣。

[講者2]

這真的很美，我很喜歡你分享的這些想法。它們帶給我很多啟發、反思的空間，也激勵我要努力變得更好。

[講者3]

對，我也覺得這讓我更想去深入了解這個概念。我以前其實有聽過「道」這個詞，但聽你分享後，現在更想去探索、學習它的內涵與意義。因為它看起來真的非常重要。

[講者1]

是的。

[講者3]

我覺得這真的是個很棒的結尾，留給大家一個很好的想法。

[講者2]
對呀。

[講者1]
沒錯。

（音樂）

[講者3]

本節目感謝人文華盛頓（Humanities WA）、華盛頓大學辛普森中心（University of Washington Simpson Center）、文理學院（College of Arts & Sciences）以及國家人文基金會挑戰獎助金（National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge Grant）的支持。特別感謝我們的來賓，慷慨地分享這些對他們家庭與社群來說彌足珍貴的故事。

更多關於這些故事與本計畫其他參與者的資訊，請參考我們的節目網站：translationships.net。

[講者2]

我們節目的名稱靈感來自於 Force 11 的開放、多語言及全球學術交流工作組（Open, Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication，簡稱 OMG）。該小組挑戰「全球學術交流社群，致力於更開放且公平地發展跨越文化、語言、地區、邊界、學科與世界觀的『翻譯關係』（trans-lationships，意即跨譯關係）」（Del Río Riande、Lujano 與 O’Donnell，2020），此理念出自 Spence 與 Brandao 所著《邁向數位人文的語言敏感度與多樣性》（“Towards Language Sensitivity and Diversity in the Digital Humanities”）一文。

[講者3]

本專案的協作者包括語言與教學支援： Shariliz Poveda、Eloisa Aguirre、Francisco Siderey 以及 Bixin Fu；技術與後勤支持則由 Frank Macarthy 和 Elliott Stevens 協助完成。

節目開場曲為梅賽德斯·索薩（Mercedes Sosa）經典歌曲《Balderrama》，由布宜諾斯艾利斯樂團Kermesse混音改編。該團體於2015年由雙人組合Fase與Gurtz（又名Muno）成立，並採用創用

In this episode storytellers Kim, Zheng, research assistant Bixin, and hosts Cristina and Taiko focus on two stories: Kim’s retelling of “Scholar Tang Bohu and Maid Qiu Xiang”and Zheng’s “The Farmer and the Snake”. Both stories speak about the nature of good and evil, competing human identity traits, and help us to reflect on how to navigate such distinctions. We talk about the cultural contexts of their stories consider how these contexts help them interpret, tell, and pass on the stories in ways that are meaningful to them. 

Speaker 1

(Speaking in Chinese)

我要给你讲一个故事

这是一个有关于中国明代画家，有名的画家唐伯虎的...

(Speaking in English)

This is a folk tale regarding one of the most notable painters in Chinese art history. His name is Tang BoHu. His superior talent won him wealthy, high-end social status, as well as many admirers….

(music)

Speaker 2

Welcome to Storytelling Translationships. You were just listening to a clip of Kim's story, scholar Tang Bohu and maid Qiuxiang, in Mandarin and in English. To hear the full versions, you can find it on our website, translationships.net. I'm Taiko Aoki-Marcial, and in today's episode, my co-host Christina Sanchez-Martin and I are talking with Kim, Zheng, and Bixin.

 (music)

Speaker 2

All right, great to be with you all again. Welcome, and can you introduce yourselves briefly for our listeners? 

Speaker 1

Yes, my name is Kim, and I really like the culture, both from western country, also the Chinese culture, and I really like to study and to tell my story. Thank you.

Speaker 3

Hello, my name is Zheng. My story comes from the Aseop’s Fables, and also the story is very popular in my home country, also south of China. We use the Chinese to explain or to educate our kids. Yeah, the story name is the farmer and the snake. 

Speaker 4

Hi everyone, my name is Bixin. I'm the research assistant here.

Speaker 2

Great, thanks. So to start off, Zheng, Kim, as well as you, Bixin, we've all shared stories recently, and we appreciate the detailed conversations that you've all had around them. So we're going to put these stories into conversation today.

Could we all start by providing just a really short summary of your story for those who haven't had a chance to listen yet? 

Speaker 1

Yes, thank you. My story is about the lovers, two people who fall in love, but there's a difficulties in between them because of social stigma, and also social status, social stigma, also the ancient Chinese cultures not allow them to. But they bend the rule, and persist, and because of their persistence, and conquer difficulty, and then fall in love, and to get married, have a happy ending. Thank you. 

Speaker 3

One story I read when I was little still impressed me a lot. This story comes from the Greek Aesop's Fables, The Farmer and the Snake.

In the cold winter day, the farmer saw the dead snake when passing by the fields. Spontaneously, he had compassion on it, and then saved this snake by giving warmth to it. However, when the snake woke up, it gave an unexpected bite to the farmer.

Why did you bite me even after I saved you? asked the farmer. Snake laughed evilly. Do you know who I am? I'm a snake.

In the end of the story, farmer unfortunately died with sadness. This story means a lot to me. Even until today, the story reflects me on many aspects of our life.

It asked us, is it true that what goes around comes around? 

Speaker 5

So can you comment a little bit more about how these stories help us to understand and question the expectations that society has for us and how these appear in the stories? 

Speaker 1

For my story, it's about love. There's a condition that both people, both two of them, need to fall in love first. So there's some expectation that one pursues another, and maybe the other one does not return the favor.

So no matter how much you make the effort, sometimes expectations may fall. But under this, my story is more like a moral society would be accepted because no matter how hard it is, their social status, and their situation are different, but they fall in love. Both of them, they love each other.

So that's why they have the happy ending, and because of the conditions already put there. Thank you. 

Speaker 2

It was really interesting to consider the format or like the modality that these stories were shared with you. Zheng and Kim, both of you told stories that you first read in books that your parents had, but they're also kind of well-known stories that exist and circulate in other formats. For example, these are stories that are orally told in many places. They're in television and movies.

So this question is kind of what is the significance of how a story is told, the modality of the story? What are the differences? What are the opportunities, advantages of different storytelling formats? How does it change from one format to another, or does it change? And what is the meaning or importance of that? 

Speaker 1

Like that. So there's a book with an author in the past is kind of common. And then in the Ming Dynasty, there's more like a historian, also a writer to formally write this story on a book. The name is Feng Menglong. That's in the Ming Dynasty. It's because that person is collecting the folk tales and wanted to record them.

This part, this part of the story is not that interesting. That's why, but the main, what we call Zheng is the same, but the story itself is not very interesting. It's kind of plain. Then, for example, when we watch on the TV and a movie, and when my mom told me, there's the adding more like interesting story, for example, like the female character Chu Xiang is very beautiful and smart. But in the TV shows later created, and also the movie, they said, except Chu Xiang, other female servants are ugly. Because they said that Chu Xiang is not as beautiful as he described, because they have the ugly servant, it's kind of like, make like a kind of more like leaves and those flowers to comparison, to make it more interesting to compare with other ugly servants.

Also, they have more, for example, like more details that's not showing in the books, and then people adding the details so that make it more have the more like a have the flash. For example, when Tang Bohu, the male character, met Miss Chu Xiang, Chu Xiang is feeding the hungry, feeding the homeless people in the temple. In the book, there's no description of that.

In the movie and also in the TV shows, they were showing more like a character of the female character Chu Xiang make it more like kind and beautiful and smart. And that looks more like a higher, the actress is more like a beautiful, charming like that. But in the books, they're not reflecting much of the details of the information.

When the movie first come out is in the 1980s. And I never saw that one. The first one I saw in the movie is 1993.

And after that will be TV shows produced by the Hong Kong director. And it's in 2000. After 2000, they have many more version of that so that we can tell from generation to generations.I hope that answer your question. 

Speaker 4

Yeah, so what Zheng just shared, when she was a child, she was already told about this story, the farmer and the snake. When she heard this story, her first reaction was that, oh, we can't do the same like what the farmer did. So they kind of laughed on what the farmer did. The educational meaning that she received, when she first read the story was that we should treat the right people with kindness, and stay away from evil people. So when she read this book, this from a storybook, she learned that kindness cannot be given to everyone. It should be chosen, and should be selected for the right people. After that, she also learned about this story through short videos, and TV like cartoons. So there are many modalities of this story being told.

However, the meaning told by this story remains the same, that the purpose of this story is to educate children how to give kindness. When she looks back on the story, she has some different ideas. So when she told this story to her son, she has her own interpretation that she wants to share with her son.

And this is one of her favorite ways to tell this story, like to have her own interpretation when reading the story of the farmer and the snake to other people. 

Speaker 5

Wow, so interesting. And this next question kind of connects back to that. Since it seems that the stories revolve around relationships that stories have and create across generations, and this is a point that connects both of your stories too. Kim, you mentioned that your mom's generation as well as your generation and your cousins and their children all know about that story. And Zheng, you mentioned that your parents use stories like this to educate you and also that you told the story to your son. We just heard about that, your own interpretation of this story. And all of us, Taiko, Bixin and I also have stories that connect us to our families as well. So how do you think that the stories might help connect people across generations? Is it important to pass on the knowledge from the stories to future generations? Why yes or no, or maybe yes and no and both? Can you tell us a little bit more about this? 

Speaker 1

Yes, the reason that the story we have is very popular and passed along from generations to generations is about love. Loving is like an internal topic, like we love people and we talk to, we make the stories, a lot of like stories, also songs and movies. It's like a popular topic. So when my mom or my other family members, we discuss with that, it's kind of interesting topic. That's why we talk about that. 

Also another important reason is, it's connected to the reality. In the reality, we have experienced like almost everyone experience about like pursuing something, about if I have met some difficulties, how can I conquer it? Those are very important topic too. So this story connected both love and persistence and how to conquer the difficulties what we have. So yeah, so that's how we connect it and definitely we will tell other, like my children too, because it's just interesting and people love to talk about that. Thank you.

Speaker 3

So in my opening, I'm just thinking why I choose this topic and this story? Because I want just doing the things and keep the Cantonese things and keep the story still to a spring or getting popular to every kids to know. So that's important. When I grew up, I think this topic is still important to everyone. So that's why I want to share this, my idea or some little bit concern to everyone across the generation as well. 

Because kindness continues to be an important topic. Yeah.

Yeah. We have different thinking of the Cantonese in this world and especially the people when they grew up, they still thinking they need to do or they don't need to do or only just talk about the story because it's an action. It's something you need to keep doing. It's not only about a story, only read about and that's it. Yeah. We just want people to do the things more like that.

Speaker 5

I really like that. 

Speaker 3

And also made a question in the new generation to let them think from the older time, we had a new icon, how to say that? Different icon or different thing? 

(Zheng speaking to Bixin in Cantonese)

Speaker 4

So we might have different perspectives if we share the same story with people from different countries, different race, different culture, different, you know, backgrounds. I'm sure that people will interpret in a different perspective.

Speaker 3

Yeah. That's my thinking. I want to hear about the feedback for after I told you guys too maybe someone after hear my voice, they can give some feedback to me for this question. Yeah.

Speaker 5

The story reminded me a little bit since you're talking about different cultures and so on. It reminded me a little bit of Romeo and Juliet. And then the Spanish version of Romeo and Juliet, there's also a La Celestina. But in that case, it's about a woman who's like a witch. And she makes these two people fall in love, but they belong to different social classes. And so it's a tragedy. So it just reminded me a little bit about it. And I just wondered about how the basics of the story are taken up differently, what's added to it, how the meaning changes and so on. And I realized that it is Kim's story. But your point about the cultures, let me think about that a little bit. 

Speaker 3

It's the, they already get no unpopular in all of the world. They spread the same idea to the world. But also, just until now, the social and the world and people's thinking are a little bit changed in this modern world right now. So we want to give people more concerned about is that only doing things good that’s enough or only allowed people to do good things with the good people or rather people like that. Is that good? Can fix our or can improve our right now the social kind of issue in the different way. Is, does it make sense? I don't know. So. Bixin.

(Zheng speaking to Bixin in Cantonese)

Speaker 4

Yeah, I agree with you. I think, you know, many of the things we might have been educated might not necessarily work out. So I think it's really important for us to have our own understanding, develop our own interpretation that we think, what can work out. For example, like the story shared by you. I think even though it tells us, OK, the kindness cannot be given to everyone because especially in front of the evil people. However, I think when it comes to our nowadays society, I kind of believe that we don't have to select people to do good things because it should be from our genuine, you know, like intention.

If I feel like doing good things with people, I would just go ahead instead of like selecting who is good, who is right to do, because I feel like then that kind of loses the the real purpose of sharing kindness, sharing love. I think by doing good acts, it should be unconditional. I guess this is also what Zheng wants to convey to us. Is that what you want to share with us, Zheng? 

Speaker 3

Yeah, you are a good listener and understanding. Totally. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Thank you for explaining some of my story in this time. Yeah, that's good. Thank you. 

Speaker 2

Yeah, Zheng, this story really makes me think a lot about what is good and evil. I think the question that the snake asked at the end of the farmer, he says, I'm a snake. So, who made a mistake in this story? The farmer, maybe he should have thought a little bit more deeply about his own actions, I guess, you know, like, it's a snake. Right? I don't know what it says about people. Your expectation of other people and their behavior depends on you and not on them. Right. And so you are the only one who controls your behavior. You can't control what other people do. You can only control yourself. And so it was, it was not the snake who made an evil act. He was just being himself. He's a snake. And it was the farmer that had an expectation that that wasn't with reality. Yeah, the farmer, the farmer expected something that he shouldn't have in that situation.

And for that reason, you know, so maybe the snake isn't necessarily evil, but it's kind of showing us that we need to be responsible for ourselves. And, and understand that other people are, are going to do what they're going to do. And we need to think about ourselves in relationship to those other people, as opposed to other people, and expecting them to behave how we want them to behave. That's what it kind of makes me think about those evil, like snake being evil, the snake was just doing his snake thing, you know. 

Speaker 3

Mm-hmm. So that's point. So that's make me still had a question. So we, so far, if, if I wanna be as farmer, so maybe give me more experience, and we would like to think, think of some more situation and find a good way to doing the kind things before we doing the things, just whatever, just feel free to do that. So that's the important things. So you need to find a good way to doing things. The, the maybe protect yourself also, you can get a more time or more chance to still to doing the things. 

Speaker 2

All right. This question here is kind of about language and how language is really the conduit of stories. You both use Mandarin to tell them at first, but in addition, you're also telling them in English to us and to your friends and to other multilingual communities. So how do you think the story changes or not depending on the language or combination of language that is told? Is language important to convey the meaning and the teachings of the stories? Does it matter? And then finally, what would you want teachers to know about these stories? What would you tell teachers you work with about the language in these stories? 

Speaker 1

So for me, I understand both English and Mandarin, and I have a little bit trouble to interpret what's really going on there with my story. Their language is definitely playing very important part. Also the context, the cultural differences between the Western and the Chinese one. So my have, I have one example, like for example, Tang Bohu sold himself to the Hua family, which is a local, very, have a high social status, like a scholar's family. So Tang Bohu sold himself to being a servant. So my translation here is, he as a servant, but it's a different culture. The people who are poor, they normally will sign a contract to say, I wanted to be your, more like a servant, but I wanted to get money like one time or per monthly, or I will do that. It's more like employment. But once you get into the family, you don't have many of the liberty or freedom at all. So they asked me to do anything you will have to do. So it's kind of like self-created slavery. So in Chinese, we can easily to say it's jia ding, but in the Western culture, it's not like a slave. It's not Black people. You don't have any freedom. But for this kind of contract, you can, when you want to get out, you can buy yourself out. So that's why Tang Bohu can easily buy himself out from the contract of being a slave, because he's rich. The only reason he get into it is to get closer and to get to know Qiuxiang, the female servant who is poor and also sold herself to the Hua family. But because she's poor, she don't have the power to buy her out. That's the differences between the servant and the kind of Western style of the slaves. So it's unique. So for me, I have a trouble when I translate, I have a trouble. Is that a male slave or girl slave? Or we just translate into the servant or just a maid and servant. So in the end, I have to give up my struggle and pick the servant and the maid, those translations. It's kind of different than the meaning of the slave from the Western culture. 

Speaker 2

That is a really, really interesting and really important and kind of difficult translation there that has a lot of social and class and wealth and race and culture kind of like all mixed up together. That makes that translation really meaningful and really difficult. I'm glad you kind of brought that up and explained it a little more. 

Speaker 1

Thank you. Yeah. So I wish I can learn more and I can like my English is still my second language. Wanted to improve more. I hope I can in the future, I can give more better definition on the translation. Yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 5

Or we could also incorporate some of those concepts in Chinese to expand how we understand these concepts in English, right? The Chinese concepts might give us a bigger understanding of these relationships as well. That also have to do with gender, by the way. Yeah, it's super interesting. Thank you for sharing that. 

Speaker 1

You're welcome. And you're very welcome. I really love to share this. Thank you. 

Speaker 3

Yeah, I agree with that. My language part in my home language is Chinese. So when I use Chinese to read a book and telling the book, that goes this good. My story, Farmer and Snake, it goes very simple way, simple words. And that makes sense. So as a second language learner, I still need to use my best way to explain my opening. So we had a final question there. Is that I'm doing things. And so we made a question as what goes around, what comes around. So in these sentences, we had a very special words to explain for that. But in English, I need you, through the people who is better or some intro to be like with my dictionary or translate some software, use that to make sense. Yeah. But if I only think English, I don't understand the English, the translation. It's explained the Chinese, the meaning. It doesn't make sense. It's different. So in Chinese way, it's 

(Zheng speaks in Chinese) 

Really short, like eight words. But in English, I don't know it makes sense or doesn't make sense. So this is a little bit my problem. 

Speaker 4

Yeah, we have a lot of, you know, Chinese proverbs that, you know, can really tell the meanings easily. However, we might not find, you know, the same expressions or phrases in English. Sometimes, you know, we just can't find the same words like this proverb shared by Zheng earlier. It means that if we do good things, we're rewarded with good. If we do evil things, then, you know, the same that will be rewarded with evil. I believe that, you know, such a, such a meaning is expressed in, maybe in all cultures, just in different ways. But I think, Zheng, you have done a good job because you're trying to use your own interpretation. And I find that's very, you know, helpful to, you know, to express the meanings from your own culture, because, you know, each culture or language can, you know, bring something that you should, you know, you should not be, you know, worried about, because sometimes, like in English, you know, we might not find exactly the same expressions. However, you know, we can use all languages to express the same meanings. 

Speaker 3

Sometimes in English, the translation, they explain the meaning of the words or some phrase you wanted to explain. They're very simple and doesn't go straightly. They had a like idiom or something. It's really different. So in this story, just the final question, we used a little bit Chinese phrase. It is the idiom from Chinese. Yeah. And that maybe English can use the different way to explain for that. I learned a little from here. This story.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Okay. And we're going to wrap up thinking about something that Zheng mentioned about how the stories we think of can show our personal experiences and personal emotions and give us a way of expressing ourselves.

—--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Credits

Speaker 5

This podcast has been produced with the support from the University of Washington Simpson Center and the College of Arts and Sciences and a National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge grant. Special thanks to our guests for generously sharing the treasures that these stories are for their families and communities. More information on their stories and others involved in this project can be found on our podcast website, translationships.net. The title of our podcast was inspired by Force 11, Open Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication Working Group, which challenges the global scholarly communication community to develop more openly and equitably translational relationships across cultures, languages, regions, boundaries, disciplines, and worldviews, as it appears in Spence and Brandau's 2021 article towards language sensitivity and diversity in the digital humanities.

Speaker 2

Our collaborators for this project include language and pedagogical support from Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Siderey, and Bixin Fu, technology and logistical support from Frank Macarthy and Elliott Stevens. In the introduction, we quote Kimmerer's, “Braiding Sweetgrass, Indigenous wisdom, scientific knowledge, and the teaching of plants”, and Joy Harjo's introduction to the website, Living Nations, Living Organs. The song in the introduction is a remix of Mercedes Sosa and Balderrama by Kermesse, a group from Buenos Aires formed in 2015 by the duo Fase and Gertz, aka Muno, and licensed under the Creative Commons..

website, translationships.net.

发言者 1

（以中文发言）

这是一个有关于中国明代画家 有名的画家唐伯虎的民间故事

（以英语发言）

这是一个关于中国艺术史上最著名的画家之一的民间故事。他的名字是唐伯虎。他出众的才华为他赢得了富裕、高端的社会地位以及众多的崇拜者……

（音乐）

发言者 2

欢迎收听 Storytelling Translationships。您刚刚收听的是 Kim 的故事片段，即学者唐伯虎和侍女秋香，有普通话和英文版本。要收听完整版本，您可以在我们的网站 translationships.net 上找到。我是 Taiko Aoki-Marcial，在今天的节目中，我的联合主持人 Christina Sanchez-Martin 和我正在与 Kim、Zheng 和 Bixin 交谈。

（音乐）

发言者 2

好的，很高兴再次与大家见面。欢迎大家，您们能为我们的听众简单介绍一下自己好吗？ 

发言者 1

好的，我叫 Kim，我非常喜欢文化，既喜欢西方文化，也喜欢中国文化，我非常喜欢学习和讲述我的故事。谢谢。

发言者 3

你好，我的名字是Zheng。我的故事来自《伊索寓言》，这个故事在我的祖国，也就是中国南方，非常流行。我们用中文来讲述或教育我们的孩子。是的，故事的名字是《农夫与蛇》。

发言者 4

大家好，我叫 Bixin。我是这里的研究助理。

发言者 2

太好了，谢谢。首先，Zheng、Kim和你，Bixin，我们最近都分享了故事，我们很感激你们围绕这些故事进行的详细对话。所以今天我们要把这些故事放在一起讨论。

我们能不能先为那些还没有机会听的人提供一个非常简短的故事摘要？ 

发言者 1

好的，谢谢。我的故事是关于一对恋人，两个相爱的人，但由于社会偏见、社会地位、社会耻辱以及古代的中国文化不允许他们这样做，使他们之间的结合出现了困难。但他们打破常规，坚持不懈，因为他们的坚持，克服了困难，坠入爱河，然后结婚，有了一个幸福的结局。谢谢。

发言者 3

小时候读过的一个故事至今让我印象深刻。这个故事是来自于希腊的伊索寓言《农夫与蛇》。

某个寒冷的冬天的一天，农夫路过田野时看到了一条死蛇。他自发地对它产生了同情，然后通过给它取暖，救活了它。然而，当蛇醒来时，它却意外地咬了农夫一口。

“我救了你，你为什么还要咬我？”农夫问。蛇邪恶地笑了。“你知道我是谁吗？我是一条蛇。”

故事的最后，农夫不幸地悲伤地死去了。这个故事对我来说意义重大。直到今天，这个故事仍然反映在我生活的很多方面。

它问我们，善有善报，恶有恶报，这是真的吗？

发言者 5

那么，您能否进一步评论一下这些故事如何帮助我们理解和质疑社会对我们的期望，以及这些期望是如何在故事中体现出来的？

发言者 1

对于我的故事来说，它是关于爱情的。有一个条件，两个人，他们两个人，都需要先彼此钟爱对方。所以会有某些期望，一个人追求另一个人，而另一个人可能不会回报你的爱意。

所以无论你付出多少努力，有时期望可能会落空。但在这种情况下，我的故事更像是一个会被道德社会所接受的，因为无论多么困难，他们的社会地位和处境都不相同，但他们都坠入爱河。他们两个彼此相爱。

所以这就是为什么他们有这个幸福的结局，也是因为这个既定的条件。谢谢。

发言者 2

考虑到与你们分享这些故事的形式或形态真的很有趣。Zheng和Kim，你们俩都讲了首次在父母的持有有的书中读到的故事，但这些故事也都是以其他形式存在的和流传的著名故事。例如，这些故事在很多地方都是口头讲述的。它们出现在电视和电影中。

所以这个问题就是，怎么样讲述一个故事，以及讲故事的形式的重要意义是什么？有什么区别？不同的讲故事形式有什么机会和优势？它是如何从一种形式转变为另一种形式的，或者它发生了变化吗？这有什么意义或重要性？

发言者 1

像这样。在过去，有一本书没署名作者是很常见的。然后在明朝，有一位更像是历史学家，也是一位作家的人，把这个故事正式写在一本书上。他的名字是冯梦龙。那是在明朝。因为那个人正在收集民间故事，想把它们记录下来。

这部分，这部分故事并不那么有趣。这就是为什么，但主要的，我们所说的主题是一样的，但故事本身并不很有趣。它有点平淡。然后，例如，当我们在电视和电影上看的时候，当我妈妈告诉我的时候，故事中加入了更多有趣的故事，例如，女主角秋香非常漂亮和聪明。但在后来创作的电视节目和电影中，他们说，除了秋香，其他女仆都很丑。因为他们说秋香并没有像描述的那么漂亮，因为他们有丑陋的仆人，这就有点像，做出一种更像拿叶子和花朵来比较的那样，让她与其他丑陋的仆人进行比较更有意思。

此外，他们还加入了更多细节，而这些细节在书中并没有展现出来，然后人们又添加了这些细节，让故事更加有戏剧性。例如，当男主角唐伯虎遇到秋香小姐时，秋香正在寺庙里投喂饥饿的人，投喂无家可归的人。在书中，没有这方面的描述。

在电影和电视剧中，他们更多的展现了秋香这个女性角色的性格，使她看起来更善良、美丽和聪明。而且看起来他们所雇佣的女演员也是更加美丽的、迷人的那样子。但在书中，他们没有很多的反映出这些细节的信息。

这部电影首次发行是在 1980 年代。我从来没有看过这部电影。我第一次看到是在 1993 年版的电影中。

之后出现在由香港导演制作的电视剧里。这是 2000 年的事了。2000 年以后，他们有了更多的版本，以便我们可以代代传承。我希望这些回答了你的问题。

发言者 4

是的，Zheng刚才分享的内容是，当她还是个孩子时，她就已经被告知了这个故事，农夫和蛇。当她听到这个故事时，她的第一反应是，哦，我们不能像农夫那样做同样的事情。所以他们有点嘲笑农夫的做法。当她第一次读到这个故事时，她得到的教育意义是，我们应该善待正确的人，远离邪恶的人。所以当她读到这本书时，从一本故事书中，她了解到，善良不能给予每个人。它应该是经过选择的，应该选择给正确的人。之后，她还通过短片和电视，比如动画片了解了这个故事。所以这个故事有很多种讲述方式。

然而，这个故事所传达的意义始终如一，即这个故事的目的是教育孩子们如何给予善意。当她回顾这个故事时，她有一些不同的想法。所以当她把这个故事讲给儿子听时，她有自己的解读，她想和儿子分享。

这是她最喜欢的讲故事方式之一，就像在给别人读农夫和蛇的故事时有自己的解读一样。

发言者 5

哇，太有趣了。下一个问题也与此有关。因为这些故事似乎是围绕着故事所建立和创造的跨代关系展开，这也是你们两个故事的联系点。Kim，你提到你妈妈那一代、你那一代、你的表亲和他们的孩子都知道这个故事。Zheng，你提到你的父母用这样的故事来教育你，你也把这个故事讲给你的儿子听。我们刚刚听到了你对这个故事的解读。我们所有人，Taiko、Bixin 和我，也都有将我们与家人联系起来的故事。那么你认为这些故事如何帮助跨代人建立联系？将故事中的知识传递给后代重要吗？为什么是或不是，或者可能是是和不是，两者兼而有之？你们能告诉我们更多有关于这方面的内容吗？

发言者 1

是的，我们的故事之所以如此受欢迎并代代相传，是因为爱。爱就像一个永恒的话题，就像我们爱着人们，我们与之交谈，我们创作故事，很多故事，还有歌曲和电影。这是一个很受欢迎的话题。所以当我妈妈或其他家庭成员讨论这个话题时，这是一个很有趣的话题。这就是我们谈论它的原因。
另一个重要原因是，它与现实息息相关。在现实中，我们几乎每个人都经历过追求某样东西的经历，如果我遇到了一些困难，我该如何克服它？这些也是非常重要的话题。所以这个故事把爱和坚持不懈联系在一起，以及如何克服我们所遇到的困难。所以，是的，这就是如何我们跟它相联系在一起的，我们肯定会告诉其他人，比如也告诉我的孩子们，因为这很有趣，人们喜欢谈论它。谢谢。

发言者3

所以在开场白中，我只是在想为什么我选择这个主题和这个故事？因为我想做这些事情，保留广东人的东西，让这个故事成为流行，让每个孩子都知道。所以这很重要。当我长大后，我认为这个话题对每个人来说仍然很重要。所以这就是为什么我想分享这个，我的想法或者一丁点的担忧给跨代的每个人。

因为善良一直是一个重要的话题。是的。

是的。我们对分布在世界的广东人有不同的看法，尤其是那些长大后的人，他们仍然在考虑他们需要做什么或不需要做什么，或者只是谈论这个故事，因为这是一种行动。这是你需要继续做的事情。这不仅仅是一个故事，不只是阅读而已。是的。我们只是希望人们能去做更多这样的事情。

我真的很喜欢。

也向新一代提出了一个问题，让他们从过去的时代思考，我们有了一个新的标识，怎么说呢？不同的标识还是不同的东西？

（Zheng用中文对 Bixin说）

发言者 4

因此，如果我们与来自不同国家、不同种族、不同文化、不同背景的人分享同一个故事，我们可能会有不同的看法。我相信人们会从不同的角度进行解读。

发言者 3

是的。我是我的想法。在我给你们讲完以后，我也想听听大家的反馈。也许有人听到我的声音后，可以就这个问题给我一些反馈。是的。

发言者 5

由于您谈到了不同的文化等等，这个故事提醒了我一点。它让我想起了一点罗密欧与朱丽叶。然后是西班牙版的罗密欧与朱丽叶，还有一部《塞莱斯蒂娜》。但在那个故事中，它讲的是一个像女巫一样的女人。她让这两个人坠入爱河，但他们属于不同的社会阶层。所以这是一场悲剧。所以它让我回想起了关于它的这一点。我只是想知道故事的基本内容是如何以不同的方式呈现的，故事中增加了什么，含义如何变化等等。我意识到这是 Kim 的故事。但你关于文化的观点，使我想到那么一点。

发言者 3

他们已经在全世界范围内赢得了广泛支持。他们向全世界传播着同样的想法。但直到现在，现代社会和人们的思维方式都发生了一些变化。因此，我们希望让人们更加关注的是，只做好事就够了，还是只允许人们和好人一起做好事，或者更确切地说，只允许人们和好人一起做好事。这样好吗？能以不同的方式解决或改善我们当前的社会问题吗？这样说讲得通吗？我不知道。所以，Binxin。

（Zheng用中文对 Bixin说）

发言者 4

是的，我同意你的观点。我认为，你知道，可能我们学到的很多东西不一定能奏效。所以我认为真正重要的是，我们需要有自己的理解，发展自己的解释并思考什么能奏效。例如，就像你分享的故事。我认为，尽管它告诉我们，好吧，善意不能给予每个人，尤其是在邪恶的人面前。然而，我认为，当谈到我们当今的社会时，我认为我们不必选择人去做善事，因为这应该是出于我们真诚的意图。

如果我想为别人做好事，我会直接去做，而不是选择谁是好人，跟谁做是对的，因为我觉得那样就失去了分享善意、分享爱的真正目的。我认为做好事应该是无条件的。我想这也是Zheng想要传达给我们的。Zheng，这就是你想和我们分享的吗？

发言者 3

是的，你是一位很好的倾听者并且善于理解。完全是这样。是的，那很好。是的。谢谢你在这里解释了我的一些故事。是的，那很好。谢谢你。

发言者2

是的，Zheng，这个故事确实让我思考了很多关于善恶的问题。我在想蛇在结尾问农夫的问题，他说，我是一条蛇。那么，在这个故事中谁犯了错误？农夫，也许他应该更深入地思考一下自己的行为? 你知道，比如，他是一条蛇。对吧？我不知道它对人们意味着什么。你对其他人及其行为的期望取决于你，而不是他们。对。所以你是唯一一个控制自己行为的人。你无法控制别人做什么。你只能控制自己。事实就是如此，蛇并没有做出邪恶的行为。它只是在做自己。它是一条蛇。是农夫的期望与现实不符。是的，农夫，农夫在那种情况下期待了一些他不应该有期待的事情。

因此，你知道，也许蛇不一定是邪恶的，但它在某种程度上告诉我们，我们需要对自己负责。并且，要明白其他人会做他们想做的事。我们需要从与其他人的关系来思考自己，而不是指望其他人按照我们希望的方式行事。这就是它让我想到那些邪恶的事物，比如蛇是邪恶的，你知道的蛇只是在做蛇会做的事。

发言者 3

嗯。这就是重点。这让我仍然有一个问题。所以到目前为止，如果我想成为农民，那么也许可以给我更多的经验，我们想思考，考虑更多的情况，在做这些事情之前找到一个好的方法，不管怎样，只要随意去做就可以了。所以这是重要的事情。所以你需要找到一个好的方法去做事情。也许还可以保护自己，你可以有更多的时间或更多的机会去做这些事情。

发言者 2

好的。这个问题是关于语言的，以及语言如何真正成为故事的渠道。你们一开始都用普通话讲故事，但除此之外，你们还用英语向我们、你们的朋友和其他多语言社区讲述故事。那么，你认为故事会如何根据所讲的语言或语言组合而改变或保持不变？语言对于传达故事的意义和教育含义是否重要？它重要吗？最后，你希望老师们了解这些故事的哪些方面？有关这些故事中的语言，你会告诉与你一起工作的老师们哪一些呢？

发言者 1

这样对我来说，我既懂英语又懂普通话，我有一点翻译上的困难有关于我的故事真实的发生了什么。他们的语言是肯定的起着非常重要的作用。还有语境，以及西方和中国之间的文化差异。我有一个例子，比如唐伯虎把自己卖给了华府，华府是当地的一个社会地位很高的家庭，就像一个书香门第。所以唐伯虎把自己卖了去做一个仆人。所以我的翻译是，他是一个仆人，但这是一种不同的文化。穷人通常会签一份契约，说，我想成为你的仆人，但我想得到一些钱，比如一次或每月，或者我会这样做工。这更像是雇佣。但一旦你进入这个家庭，你就没有多少自主权或自由了。所以他们会要求你做任何事而且你必须要做。所以这有点像自愿成为的奴隶。所以在中文里，我们可以很轻松地说这是家丁，但在西方文化中，它并不像是奴隶。它不像是黑人那种。你没有任何自由。但是对于这种契约，当你想摆脱它时，你可以将自己买出来。这就是为什么唐伯虎可以很容易地从奴隶契约中把自己买出来，因为他很富有。他来到这里的唯一原因是为了更接近并了解秋香，秋香是一个贫穷的女仆，她也把自己卖给了华家。但因为她很穷，她没有能力把自己买出来。这就是这里仆人和西方形式的奴隶的区别。所以它是独一无二的。所以对我来说，我在翻译的时候遇到了麻烦，我遇到了麻烦。那是男奴隶或女奴隶吗？或者我们只是翻译成仆人或女仆和仆人。所以最后，我不得不放弃我的挣扎，选择仆人和女仆，这样翻译。这与西方文化中的奴隶的含义有些不同。

发言者 2

这是一个非常非常有趣、非常重要且有点困难的翻译，其中涉及很多社会、阶级、财富、种族和文化，所有这些似乎都混杂在一起。这使得翻译非常有意义，也非常困难。我很高兴你提到了这一点并做了进一步解释。

发言者 1

谢谢。是的。所以我希望我能学到更多，而且我的英语仍然是我的第二语言。想进一步提高。我希望将来我能在翻译时给出更好的定义。是的。谢谢。

发言者 5

或者我们也可以结合中文中的一些概念来扩展我们对英语中这些概念的理解，对吧？中文概念也可能让我们更深入地了解这些关系。顺便说一句，这也与性别有关。是的，这非常有趣。谢谢你的分享。

发言者 1

不客气。非常不客气。我非常乐意分享这一点。谢谢。

发言者 3

是的，我同意这一点。我的母语中的语言部分是中文。所以当我用中文读书和讲故事时，效果很好。我的故事《农夫与蛇》很简单，用简单的词语。这很易懂的。但是作为第二语言学习者，我仍然需要用我最好的方式解释我的开场白。所以我们问了最后一个问题。我在做事情。所以我们问了一个问题有关于善有善报恶有恶报。所以在这些句子中，我们有一个非常特殊的词来解释这一点。但在英语中，我需要你，通过人们可以使用更好的或一些介绍，比如我的字典或翻译软件，用它来理解。是的。但如果我只英语去思考，我就不明白英语，不明白翻译内容。它解释了中文的意思。但是它讲不通的。这是不同的。所以用中文来说，它是

（Zheng用中文说话）

很短，就像八个字。但在英语中，我不知道它是讲得通或者讲不通呢。所以这有点儿是我的问题。

发言者 4

是的，我们有很多中国谚语，它们的意思很容易理解。但是，我们可能在英语中找不到相同的表达或短语。有时，我们就是找不到相同的词组，就像Zheng之前分享的这句谚语一样。它的意思是，如果我们做好事，我们会得到善报。如果我们做坏事，那么，同样的也会得到恶报。我相信，也许在所有文化中，这种含义都有不同的表达方式。但我认为，Zheng，你做得很好，因为你试图用自己的方式去诠释。我发现这对表达自己文化的含义非常有帮助，因为每种文化或语言都会带来一些你应该和不应该担心的事情，因为有时候，比如在英语中，我们可能找不到完全相同的表达方式。然而，我们可以使用所有语言来表达相同的含义。

发言者 3

有时在英语中的翻译，他们会解释你想解释的单词或短语的含义。它们非常简单，不会直接解释。它们有成语之类的东西。这真的很不一样。所以在这个故事中，也就是最后一个问题中，我们使用了一点中文短语。这是来自中国的成语。是的。也许英语可以用不同的方式来解释这一点。我从这个故事中学到了一些。

发言者 5

是的。好的。最后，我们来思考一下Zheng提到的内容，关于我们想到的故事如何展现我们的个人经历和个人情感，并为我们提供一种表达自我的方式。

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

致谢

发言者 5

本播客是在华盛顿大学辛普森中心和艺术与科学学院的支持下制作的，并获得了国家人文挑战基金的资助。特别感谢我们的嘉宾慷慨地分享这些故事，这对他们的家庭和社区来说都是宝贵的财富。有关他们的故事以及其他参与该项目的人的更多信息，请访问我们的播客网站translationships.net。我们播客的标题灵感来自Force 11，Open Multilingual和全球学术交流工作组，该工作组挑战全球学术交流界发展更开放、更公平的跨文化、语言、地区、边界、学科和世界观的翻译关系，正如Spence和Brandau 在2021年关于数字人文语言敏感性和多样性的文章中所述。

发言者 2

我们在这个项目中的合作者包括 Eloisa Aguirre、Francisco Siderey 和 Bixin Fu 的语言和教学支持，以及 Frank Macarthy 和 Elliott Steven 的技术和后勤支持。在介绍中，我们引用了 Kimmerer 的“编织甜草、土著智慧、科学知识和植物教学”以及 Joy Harjo 对网站 Living Nations, Living Organs 的介绍。介绍歌曲是 Kermese 对 Mercedes Sosa 的 Balderrama 的混音 是一支来自布宜诺斯艾利斯的乐队，由 Fase 和 Gertz（又名 Muno）于 2015 年组建，并获得了创意共享的许可证。

In this episode, Johanna, Oliverio, and Agustín talk about stories through the supernatural/more-than-human world, helping us understand the “essence” of various Indigenous cultures in today’s Venezuela (in Johanna’s story “Caribay and the 5 White Eagles”) and Mexico (through Oliverio’s “Las Viejitas” and Agustín’s “Legends of Temalacatzingo”). 

[Speaker 1]

Como existen muchas montañas, cuevas, ríos, hay una cueva cerca del rio que allí la gente busca minas, ¿sí? Entonces la gente entra por ambición, pero jamás vuelven, porque se pierden, ¿sí? Y también creen que en ese río, se forma un puente donde pueden cruzar los del más allá, ¿sí? En los caminos…

[Speaker 2]

This is a story from my friend Agustín Ibarra. 

There is a town or pueblo on the south side of Guerrero called the Temalacatzingo. That's the community I am from. People share legends or leyendas or stories because it is a place full of mountains and rivers. One of those stories is about the caves that are in nature away from the pueblos or towns. The story goes that in search of treasures, people get lost inside the caves because of their ambition.

[music]

[Speaker 3]

Welcome to Storytelling translationships. You were listening to a clip from Agustín's story, Las Leyendas del Temalacatzingo, in Spanish and English. To hear the full version, you can find it on our website Translationships.net. I am Cristina Sánchez Martín, and in today's episode, my co-host Taiko Aoki Marcial and I are talking with Agustín, Oliverio, who shared the story Las Viejitas about the Aztec-Tarascos war, Johanna, who told us the story of Caribay and the five white eagles, and our interpreter Eloisa.

[music]

So, what are the tribes or groups of people from which these legends originated in each case? And how important is it for you and for all of us engaging with the stories to recognize that? 

[Speaker 4]

Well, I have not too much relationship with the Aztecs or Tarascans, of course, but I have some relationship with the Chichimecas. I am from Guanajuato, in the town I was born there is a reservation of Chichimecas close to the town, and they tell histories to my grandmother. I know a lot of histories about the Indigenous. I was always interested for the Mexican pre- Hispanic history. That's the relationship, really.

[Speaker 3]

And how important is it to recognize that the stories come from these groups?

[Speaker 4]

Well, really for me it’s very important. I read the history about the little grandmothers. When I read it, I was thinking in the Chichimecas. The kind of thinking they have is different than the others. Maybe not so much today, but when I was young, yes, it was really very different. But yes, sometimes I am looking for Tarascos and Aztecas histories. I'm interested in that culture.

[Speaker 1]

Porque antes había varios grupos indígenas, ¿si?. Yo soy de la Mixteca, y cada estado tiene diferentes...¿si? Y me encanta, pero en verdad nunca le he puesto atención a esto, o interés, saber. Pero ahora que lo mencionan, dices bueno, quisiera saber realmente de dónde vengo, ¿no? Y se pone más interesante. Y así como lo dicen, es bueno que la gente lo sepa a través de varias lenguas. 

No sé, si supiera todas las leyendas, o saber bien las leyendas, yo creo que hay más, ¿no? Pero en sí es de lo que nada más me contaban, pero nunca le puse interés, atención a eso. ¿Sí me entienden? Pero es padre. 

[Speaker 2] 

Okay. So, he's talking about the Mixteca tradition, he tells us that he never really paid attention to these stories, even though he grew up in this, in this group.

Before he told us about how at home they would speak Nahuatl, but he never really spoke it. So he heard these stories a lot, but he never paid attention to them. But now, in this workshop, he has found that these things are important, because he starts thinking about where he comes from, the way that he thinks, and how he relates to that.

But yes, he says that if he knew all these stories, there were many of them, that he would be able to tell us about. But now he understanding that knowing about these stories is a good thing to do. Or, I don't know how to say “padre”, but it's, yeah, it’s kind of fun to do, to figure out these stories.

[Speaker 5]

Para mí, lo que representan las leyendas, las historias, los mitos, es la, es la esencia de lo que somos y de dónde venimos y cuál ha sido el proceso. Porque son, en el caso de la leyenda de las cinco águilas blancas, de Carabay, las cinco águilas blancas, es una leyenda que es al central, que viene de la tribu de los Miripuyes y que, y que ha trascendido durante tantos años y de alguna manera sigue viva, porque es la esencia y el cuento de la historia de cómo se formaron la cordillera de los Andes en los cinco picos. Claro, es una leyenda, es un mito, este, pero es fundamental y eso es una cosa que uno lo viene oyendo desde pequeño y así va trascendiendo porque entonces las nuevas generaciones también, también se enteran de la formación, de cómo se creó parte del país.

Porque la cordillera de los Andes es parte del país, porque nosotros tenemos un país de todos los climas del mundo, tiene nieve, tiene montañas, tiene llanos, tiene selva, tiene playa, tiene desierto y es algo bonito, pues una tradición pues, que se conserva y pienso que de alguna manera nunca va a morir porque siempre va a haber alguien que la cuente y va, y cada vez que la estás contando está resurgiendo nuevamente en la nueva era. 

[Speaker 2]

So, Johanna says, for me these stories are the essence of where we come from, for example, in this legend this legend comes from the Mirripuyes, and has transcended for many years and tells us about the creation of our lands specifically to this legend of our mountains. Mountains being, Pico Humboldt, Pico Bolívar, Pico de la Concha, Pico del León and Pico del Toro. It is fundamental and something that you must learn or that you learn since your childhood and through these generations we learn how our land was created.

She also tells, says that our country has many climates, specifically eight of the, eight of the types of climates around the world and learning these stories helps us understand how these come to be. So it also lets us preserve our history and our history also, the way we tell the story, our history resurges. She uses the word “resurges” through this era.

[Speaker 6]

Great, thank you so much. Those are such interesting connections to, to those Indigenous groups and how they kind of pass on through generations. And I think Johanna used the word “resurgence” when she was talking and I loved that.

This next question, the third question, is kind of about some of the common themes of the supernatural or the more-than-human world. For example, eagles and peaks and the sun and the moon in Johanna's story, in Oliverio's story, the moon and the birds, and then the rivers and caves and the mountains in Agustin's story. So we're thinking a little bit about what are the roles of the natural elements in your stories and legends? What does it mean that these natural elements kind of have a life of their own? They talk and have characteristics that we usually attribute to humans. Do we still learn from them? Is this something that is still present in your lives now, considering the relationship with the natural elements?

[Speaker 4]

I think the natural elements say something. The occidental culture they say no, they are just only natural elements, but not for the ancient cultures; they hear something, they believe they are somehow another person, you know? It is the same between person and natural elements, and we really are, but we cannot see something like that. It looks to me that they are something different, but not for the old people in the old cultures. The sun, the moon, the air, the wind, the mountains, they are persons, you know? I think that's the difference between us and ancient culture.

[Speaker 2]

I wanted to add real quick something that Oliverio and I kind of talked a little bit about, it reminds me of, of as someone who is from Mexico too, the way that we understand gods, in reality they were like deities, like understanding the sun, understanding the moon, seeing them as human beings, or as a representation of the way we understand how we exist. So the way Oliverio speaks of these other ways of understanding also tells us that the way that we used to see deities were very different from the way our colonizers did, that the deities had a lot to do with us, and related to us and related to nature really, and it was not as, kind of divided, it was more connected to who we used to be. So, I just wanted to add that, because Oliverio and I also had different conversations throughout this workshop.

[Speaker 1]

Nunca lo tuve en cuenta. O sea, yo de lugar me fui como a los 10 años, ¿no? Viví en otro estado, realmente no sé más allá de lo que cuentan, ¿no? O de lo que pasa. Solo cuando era niño, la gente me decía esas cosas.

No sé si me lo hacía por miedo, o precaución, x cosas. Por eso de ese lado nunca le puse empeño ni importancia. Tuve que mover, irme a otro estado, que es Morelos, pero también hay cosas que existen ahí, y aprendes de muchas cosas.

Pero sí, lo único que sí no perdería es la lengua, que ellos hablan ahí en ese lugar. Puedo entender el 50%, pero no hablarlo. Es como el inglés aquí, le entiendo el 60, hablo el 50.

Y eso me ayudaría más, porque una persona que habla esas lenguas, el inglés lo domina rápido.

[Speaker 2]

 Y para ti, por ejemplo, estos elementos naturales o supernaturales, ¿cómo te ayudan? ¿Cómo piensas que nos ayudan a entender estas leyendas?

[Speaker 1]

Te ponen si, a pensar, a ver que, de dónde relacionan. ¿Por qué pasan esas cosas? 

[Speaker 2]

Agustín says that he never had that in mind, he says I left when I was ten years old so I don’t know beyond the stories that they told me. So, this is kind of, answers part of the question, he says that when he was a kid, was when he used to be told these stories. So one thing he wonders about is if it was maybe to give him some of the fears, or kind of teach him what to fear or what not to fear. But that's why he never paid attention to these stories.

So then, also after this kind of childhood moment, he left and moved to Morelos, which is close to his town. So he also began learning about those places. So, he also talked a little bit about the language, how he wants to preserve the language, which is Nahuatl, and that he understands kind of only half of it, just the way he understands English. Just 60% English, 50% Nahuatl. 

But yeah, in trying to understand these supernatural questions, it's kind of hard to look at it, but he says that it allows him to think about it, to think about what we're going through right now. 

[Speaker 5]

O sea, hay una relación entre, entre la naturaleza y, y los seres humanos. Porque Caribay es hija del sol y la luna y las montañas las formaron, las formaron fueron las águilas, y las águilas son seres vivos

[Speaker 2]

Y tú, por ejemplo la última pregunta nos dice, ¿tú todavía piensas a que todavía aprendemos de estas maneras de lo, lo sobrenatural y si tu piensas que esto es todavía como importante o está presente en tu vida ahorita aprender de esta manera en la que aprendemos de las, los elementos naturales y sobrenaturales?

[Speaker 5]

Es que, es que es una linda manera de aprender historia. De aprender la historia de tu país, en el caso de esta leyenda que es particular, de la creación de la cordillera de los Andes venezolanos, este, es parte también de cómo aprendes que es una cordillera, que son montañas, o sea, de pequeño vas aprendiendo, y eso te ayuda a tu formación como ser humano integral del conocimiento de tu país, de, de cómo se creó, de cuál es la tradición, de cuáles son los mitos y las leyendas sobre la creación del país. Para mí es hermoso, es una manera rosa de ver cómo se creó parte del país. Entonces es una manera de enriquecer la cultura venezolana y hacerla trascender hacia otras culturas de otros países.

[Speaker 2]

Johanna says that the Carabay story is about being the daughter of the sun and the moon so it has to do with this relationship between different elements and the mountain it's also about the mountains and the way that the mountains were formed by the way that the Eagles were moved we're moving their wings so this is about the relationship between nature and humans. She also says this is a very nice way to understand our history. It is part of how we learn about the mountains and what the mountains are or what it means to have a “cordillera” (mountain range) in your land. It helps us as humans to understand these creations and how they come to be. Johanna says, “to me it is really beautiful to learn about our country this way it is a way to enrich our cultures and allow our culture to transcend unto other cultures.”

[Speaker 3]

Beautiful. Thank you!

We would also want to know about language and its role in shaping the retelling of the stories. So, all of you have used Spanish to tell the stories but you've also talked about other languages like Nahuatl and then you talk about the story in English and you have shared it with other multilingual communities in English. So we want to know if you think the story changes or not depending on the language that is used to tell it, or the combination of languages, and if language is important for the meaning and the teachings of the story. And then, thinking about your, your teachers, specifically your English teachers, what would you want them to know about the role of language in these stories?

[Speaker 4]

I read that a long time ago, something like 50 years ago, 45 years ago, long time. In that time, people the was not interested, not too much interested in the Mexican culture. Today there are a lot of interest. But I can see some difference. People who are talking that place or history,--- now, today it is not the original, you know? It is difficult to translate between the Nahuatl to Spanish and the English. It is difficult to still the original style. Of course, something is going to change, no? In history. But of course, maybe in ancient culture the meaning is very different from today.

They understand, for example, what they did to kill someone, to murder somebody, they understand something different from today. When the Spaniards, when Hernán Cortés conquered Tenochtitlán and they see the pyramids, there were a lot of blood, there were a lot of kill, people dead people. So, the Spanish got scared, you know? The meaning of death is very different. 

For example, today, in Mexican culture, we use small calaveritas, pequeñas calaveritas. But it’s the rest of the dark history, the real story, the Aztecs they killed a lot of people, you know? So, the Spanish monjes, monjes españoles they tried to change that meaning. And now it's kind of funny or kind of party. We understand the death a little differently. So the meaning, of course, is going to change from some language to another.

[Speaker 1]

Decía que si, es contarle que sepan tambien como yo, saber de su historias ¿no? Y si, porque no saber en alemán, en japonés, en ruso ¿si? Tal vez sea original de los Indígenas Nahualt o Mayas, Aztecas ¿si? No cambiaría, no cambiaría nada. Es como lo cuentas, como lo dices porque si yo le ponía atención a los señores mayores que me decían eso, entonces yo me ponía a pensar ¿no? Se lo pueden informar hasta en un cuento

[Speaker 2]

So Agustín says that it is important to learn these stories in other languages, even if it's original to Nahuatl, Mayan, or Aztec traditions. And he says, the stories don't change, it's really about how you tell the story. So I asked about how maybe the stories transcend the way you tell them.

And he says, yeah, it's the way you describe the stories. Okay, so Agustin says that he would tell him, or ask him why these stories are important. And just to clarify, I asked him what he wants his English teachers to know. 

And it would be more to, perhaps, maybe ask where I come from and, yeah what my journey is, so that we can start from there. Gracias Agustín. 

[Speaker 5]

Bueno, yo sí pienso que la esencia se va perdiendo cuando la van traduciendo a otros idiomas. Se pierde como, como el principio. O sea, que hay cosas que no se pueden traducir. Entonces, cuando tú intentas traducirla, se pierde un poco la esencia de lo que estás diciendo. Hay una transculturización cuando le metes otro idioma. 

[Speaker 1]

Tiene sentido. 

[Speaker 2]

Johana says that she does believe that the essence is lost when you translate these stories. She says that maybe the essence of the way that Indigenous folks used to tell it is lost, or something, something there is lost. She says that there are primary parts that can be lost as you translate it. She says, I do think that there are modifications made when you translate it. And there’s a transcultural modifications being made when translate or interpret them.

[Speaker 5]

De los profesores, así como uno aprende de los profesores, uno también enseña y da a conocer la cultura de nuestros países.

[Speaker 2]

Yohana says that to learn about, that she wishes also that her, she wishes that they learned about the, she says, to learn about my country and my original, my origins. I wish they know about my culture, my essence, and how to tell stories in this beautiful way. She says, in a pink way or rose way. She says all of our stories come from our Indigenous origins. We are part of these original stories, not only in Latin America, but  all other Indigenous territories. They tell this story from the point of view of nature, and that’s what Indigenous essences are about. They tell us how we come to be. So, they tell this creation of the land in a beautiful way. So she wishes that the way that we learn through these stories, or that the way she learns from them, that the teachers could also learn through these stories.

[Speaker 5]

Si, y también, perdón que no lo dije antes. Pero también es una forma de decir que todos los países nosotros, Latinoamérica, tiene unas economías y unas políticas realmente de catástrofe, entonces también damos a conocer la esencia de lo que somos. O sea, de que somos un país lindo, que tenemos un origen lindo. O sea, y que no, que no todo es feo, ni todo es, ni todo es agresión, ni todo es peligro, ni todo es tragedia, ¿sabes? Que también tenemos una... La esencia realmente de lo que somos es que somos unos países hermosos, con unas historias hermosas, que lamentablemente por la situación política, en el caso de Venezuela, este, lo que se conoce es lo feo, y no lo realmente bonito, y lo realmente... De lo que, de lo que somos realmente, de lo bello y hermoso que es el país.

[Speaker 2]

Through these stories, it’s important to share that even through political struggles, that our countries in Latin America are beautiful. Just the way that we tell these stories, that we are more than that political way of seeing our world, that it’s more than the violence, more than catastrophic ways of seeing our countries, that our countries are beautiful, and that, unfortunately, from our political struggles, that that’s all we see, but through telling this story, that we can see how beautiful our countries are. 

(music)

———————————————————

Credits

[Speaker 3]

This podcast has been produced with the support from the University of Washington Simpsons Center and the College of Arts and Sciences and a the National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge Grant.

[Speaker 6]

Special thanks to our guests for generously sharing the treasures these stories are for their families and communities. More information on their stories and others involved in this project can be found on our website www.translationships.net. 

[Speaker 3]

The title of our podcast was inspired by the Force11, Open Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication Working Group, which challenges the global scholarly communication community to develop more openly and equitably “translationships” translational relationships, across cultures, languages, regions, boundaries, disciplines, and global perspectives, as it appears in Spence and Brandao’s article towards language sensitivity and diversity in the digital humanities. 

[Speaker 6]

Our collaborators for this project include linguistic and pedagogical support from Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Siderey, and Bixin Fu. Technological and logistical support from Frank Macarthy and Elliott Stevens.

[Speaker 3]

The song in the introduction is a remix of Mercedes Sosa and Balderrama by Kermesse, a group from Buenos Aires formed in 2015 by the duo Fase and Gertz, aka Muno, and licensed under the Creative Commons.

(music)

[Speaker 1]

Como existen muchas montañas, cuevas, ríos, hay una cueva cerca del río que la gente busca minas, entonces la  gente entra por ambición, pero jamás vuelven, porque se pierden, ¿sí? Y también creen que en ese río, a cierto tiempo, se forma un puente donde pueden cruzar los del más allá, ¿sí? Bienvenidos a Storytelling Translationships.

[Speaker 2]

Esto es una historia de mi amigo Agustín Ibarra. Hay una ciudad o un pueblo al sur del Guerrero que se llama Temalacatzingo. Yo vengo de esa comunidad. La gente cuenta leyendas o historias porque es un sitios lleno de montañas y ríos. Una de estas historias trata de las cuevas que están en la naturaleza, lejos de los pueblos o ciudades. Cuenta que la gente va buscando tesoros y se pierden dentro de las cuevas por su ambición.

[Speaker 3]

Bienvenidos a “Storytelling Translationships”. Estabas escuchando un clip de la historia de Agustín, Las Leyendas de Temalacatzingo, en español y en inglés. Para escuchar la versión completa, puedes encontrarla en nuestra página web, Translationships.net. Soy Cristina Sánchez Martín, y en el episodio de hoy, mi co-host Taiko Aoki Marcial y yo estamos hablando con Agustín, Oliverio, quien compartió la historia Las Viejitas sobre la guerra de Tarasco Azteca, Johanna, quien nos contó la historia de Caribay y los cinco agujeros blancos, y nuestra intérprete Eloisa.

[music]

[Speaker 3]

Entonces, ¿cuáles son las tribus o grupos de gente de donde se originan esas leyendas? ¿Y cuán importante es para ti y para todos nosotros que nos involucremos en las historias reconocer eso?

[Speaker 4]

Bueno, no tengo demasiadas relaciones con los Aztecas o Tarascos, por supuesto, pero tengo algunas relaciones con los Chichimecas. Vengo de Guanajuato, en la ciudad en la que nací hay una reserva de Chichimecas cerca del pueblo, y ellos cuentan historias a mi abuela. Conozco muchas historias sobre los indígenas. Siempre me interesaba la historia del México pre-Hispano. Esa es la relación, realmente.

[Speaker 3]

¿Y cuán importante es reconocer que las historias vienen de estos grupos?

[Speaker 4]

Bueno, realmente para mí es muy importante. Leí la historia de las pequeñas abuelas. Cuando la leí, estaba pensando en los Chichimecas. El tipo de pensamiento que tienen es diferente a otros. Quizás hoy no tanto, pero cuando era joven, sí, era realmente muy diferente. Pero sí, a veces estoy buscando historias de los Tarascos y Aztecas. Me interesa esa cultura.

[Speaker 1]

Porque antes había varios grupos indígenas, ¿si?. Yo soy de la Mixteca, y cada estado tiene diferentes...¿si? Y me encanta, pero en verdad nunca le he puesto atención a esto, o interés, saber. Pero ahora que lo mencionas, dices bueno, quisiera saber realmente de dónde vengo, ¿no? Y se pone más interesante. Y así como lo dicen, es bueno que la gente lo sepa a través de varias lenguas. 

No sé, si supiera todas las leyendas, o saber bien las leyendas, yo creo que hay más, ¿no? Pero en sí es de lo que nada más me contaban, pero nunca le puse interés, atención a eso. ¿Sí me entienden? Pero es padre. 

[Speaker 2]

Bien. Entonces, hablando de la tradición Azteca, nos dice que nunca le puso atención a estas historias, a pesar de que creció en este grupo.

Antes nos contaba cómo en casa hablaban náhuatl, pero nunca lo hablaba. Entonces escuchaba estas historias mucho, pero nunca le puso atención. Pero ahora, en este workshop, ha encontrado que estas cosas son importantes, porque empieza a pensar sobre de dónde viene y cómo lo relaciona con eso.

Pero sí, dice que sí sabía todas estas historias, que hay muchas de ellas, podría contarnos sobre ellas. Pero ahora entiendo que saber sobre estas historias es una buena cosa para hacer. No sé cómo decir “padre” (en inglés), pero si, es divertido descubrir estas historias.

[Speaker 5]

Para mí, lo que representan las leyendas, las historias, los mitos, es la, es la esencia de lo que somos y de dónde venimos y cuál ha sido el proceso. Porque son, en el caso de la leyenda de las cinco águilas blancas, de Carabay, las cinco águilas blancas, es una leyenda que es al central, que viene de la tribu de los Mirripuyes y que, y que ha trascendido durante tantos años y de alguna manera sigue viva, porque es la esencia y el cuento de la historia de cómo se formaron la cordillera de los Andes en los cinco picos. Claro, es una leyenda, es un mito, este, pero es fundamental y eso es una cosa que uno lo viene oyendo desde pequeño y así va trascendiendo porque entonces las nuevas generaciones también, también se enteran de la formación, de cómo se creó parte del país.

Porque la cordillera de los Andes es parte del país, porque nosotros tenemos un país de todos los climas del mundo, tiene nieve, tiene montañas, tiene llanos, tiene selva, tiene playa, tiene desierto y es algo bonito, pues una tradición pues, que se conserva y pienso que de alguna manera nunca va a morir porque siempre va a haber alguien que la cuente y va, y cada vez que la estás contando está resurgiendo nuevamente en la nueva era. 

[Speaker 2]

Entonces, Johanna dice que para ella estas historias son la esencia de donde venimos. Por ejemplo, en esa leyenda que viene de los Mirripuyes y ha trascendido tras muchos años y nos cuenta sobre la creación de nuestras tierras específicamente en esa leyenda, sobre las montañas, siendo Pico Humboldt, Pico Bolívar, Pico de la Concha, Pico del León y Pico del Toro. Es fundamental y algo que debes aprender o que has aprendido desde tu infancia y a través de estas generaciones hemos aprendido cómo fue creada nuestra tierra.

También nos dice que su país tiene muchos climas, específicamente ocho de los tipos de climas alrededor del mundo y aprendiendo estas historias nos ayuda a comprender cómo están. Así que también nos permite preservar nuestra historia y nuestra historia también, la manera en que nos contamos la historia, nuestra historia resurge. Ella usa la palabra resurgir a través de esta era.

[Speaker 6]

Genial, muchas gracias. Estas son conexiones tan interesantes para los grupos indígenas y cómo pasan a través de generaciones. Creo que Johanna usó la palabra resurgir cuando estaba hablando y me encantó eso.

La siguiente pregunta, la tercera pregunta, es sobre algunos de los temas comunes del supernatural o el mundo más que humano. Por ejemplo, los ágiles y los picos y el sol y la luna en la historia de Johanna, en la historia de Oliverio, la luna y los pájaros, y luego los ríos y las cavernas y las montañas en la historia de Agustín. Así que estamos pensando un poco sobre cuáles son los roles de estos elementos naturales en tus historias y leyendas. ¿Qué significa que estos elementos naturales tienen una vida propia? Hablan y tienen características que normalmente atribuyen a los humanos. ¿Aún hoy aprendemos de ellos? ¿Es esto algo que sigue presente en tus vidas ahora, considerando la relación con los elementos naturales?

[Speaker 4]

Creo que los elementos naturales dicen algo. En la cultura occidental dicen que son sólo elementos naturales, pero para la cultura antigua no; ellos escuchan algo, creen que de alguna forma son otras personas, ¿sabes? Es lo mismo entre personas y elementos naturales, y realmente lo somos, pero no podemos ver algo así. A mí me parece que son algo diferente, pero no para la gente antigua en la cultura antigua. El sol, la luna, el aire, el viento, las montañas, son personas, ¿sabes? Creo que esa es la diferencia entre nosotros y la cultura antigua.

[Speaker 2]

Quisiera decir algo muy rápido, algo que Oliverio y yo hemos hablado un poco, me recuerda, como alguien que es de México también, de la manera en que entendemos a los dioses, en realidad eran como deidades, como entender el sol, entender la luna, verlos como seres humanos, o como una representación de la manera en que entendemos cómo existimos. Así que la manera en que Oliverio habla de estas otras maneras de entender también nos dice que la manera en que veíamos a los deidades era muy diferente de la manera en que nuestros colonizadores lo hicieron, que los deidades tenían mucho que ver con nosotros, y relacionados con nosotros y relacionados con la naturaleza, y no era tan dividido, era más relacionado con quien éramos antes. Solo quería añadir eso, porque Oliverio y yo también tuvimos conversaciones diferentes durante este workshop.

[Speaker 1]

Nunca lo tuve en cuenta. O sea, yo de lugar me fui como a los 10 años, ¿no? Viví en otro estado, realmente no sé más allá de lo que cuentan, ¿no? O de lo que pasa. Solo cuando era niño, la gente me decía esas cosas.

No sé si me lo hacía por miedo, o precaución, x cosas. Por eso de ese lado nunca le puse empeño ni importancia. Tuve que mover, irme a otro estado, que es Morelos, pero también hay cosas que existen ahí, y aprendes de muchas cosas.

Pero sí, lo único que sí no perdería es la lengua, que ellos hablan ahí en ese lugar. Puedo entender el 50%, pero no hablarlo. Es como el inglés aquí, le entiendo el 60, hablo el 50.

Y eso me ayudaría más, porque una persona que habla esas lenguas, el inglés lo domina rápido.

[Speaker 2]

Y para ti, por ejemplo, estos elementos naturales o sobrenaturales, ¿cómo te ayudan? ¿Cómo piensas que nos ayudan a entender estas leyendas?

[Speaker 1]

Te ponen a pensar, a ver de dónde se relacionan. ¿Por qué pasan esas cosas? 

[Speaker 2]

Agustín dice que nunca lo tuvo en cuenta, dice que se fue cuando tenía diez años así que no sabe más allá que las historias que se le contaron. Así que eso responde en parte a la cuestión, dice que cuando era niño se le contaban estas historias. Una cosa que le pregunto es si fue para darle algunos temores, o enseñarle qué temer o no temer. Pero por eso nunca le prestó atención a estas historias.

Entonces, después de este momento de infancia, se fue y se mudó a Morelos, que está cerca de su ciudad. Así que también empezó a aprender de esos lugares. También habló un poco sobre la lengua, cómo quiere preservar la lengua, que es náhuatl, y que entiende sólo la mitad de ella, de la manera en que entiende el inglés. El 60% inglés, el 50% náhuatl. 

Pero si, tratando de entender estas preguntas sobrenaturales, es un poco difícil mirarlas, pero dice que se le permite pensar sobre cosas, pensar sobre lo que estamos viviendo en este momento. 

[Speaker 5]

O sea, hay una relación entre, entre la naturaleza y, y los seres humanos. Porque Caribay es hija del sol y la luna y las montañas las formaron, las formaron fueron las águilas, y las águilas son seres vivos

[Speaker 2]

Y tú, por ejemplo la última pregunta nos dice, ¿tú todavía piensas a que todavía aprendemos de estas maneras de lo, lo sobrenatural y si tu piensas que esto es todavía como importante o está presente en tu vida ahorita aprender de esta manera en la que aprendemos de las, los elementos naturales y sobrenaturales?

[Speaker 5]

Es que, es que es una linda manera de aprender historia. De aprender la historia de tu país, en el caso de esta leyenda que es particular, de la creación de la cordillera de los Andes venezolanos, este, es parte también de cómo aprendes que es una cordillera, que son montañas, o sea, de pequeño vas aprendiendo, y eso te ayuda a tu formación como ser humano integral del conocimiento de tu país, de, de cómo se creó, de cuál es la tradición, de cuáles son los mitos y las leyendas sobre la creación del país. Para mí es hermoso, es una manera rosa de ver cómo se creó parte del país. Entonces es una manera de enriquecer la cultura venezolana y hacerla trascender hacia otras culturas de otros países.

[Speaker 2]

Johanna dice que la historia de Carabay es sobre la hija del sol y la luna así que tiene que ver con esa relación entre elementos diferentes y la montaña, también trata de las montañas y la manera en que las montañas se formaron por como las águilas se movieron las alas así que eso trata de la relación entre la naturaleza y los humanos. También dice que es una manera bonita de entender nuestra historia. Forma parte de como aprendemos sobre las montañas y que son las montañas o que significa tener una cordillera en su tierra. Nos ayuda como humanos a entender esas creaciones y cómo se han creado. Johanna dice “ para mí es algo muy bonito aprender sobre nuestro país de esta manera, es una manera para enriquecer nuestra cultura y hacerla trascender hacia otras culturas de otros países.

[Speaker 3]

Muy bonito, gracias.

También nos gustaría saber sobre el idioma y como forma parte en el recuento de las historias. Entonces, todos ustedes han usado espanol para contar las historias pero también han hablado sobre otras lenguas como náhuatl y luego hablan sobre las historia en inglés y la han compartido con otras comunidades multilingües en inglés. Así que queremos saber si piensan que la historia cambia o no dependiendo del idioma en que se cuenta, o la combinación de idiomas, y si la lengua es importante para el significado y las enseñanzas de la historia. Y luego, pensando en sus maestros, específicamente sus maestros de inglés, ¿que les gustaría que supieran sobre la parte que tiene el idioma en estas historias?

[Speaker 4]

Yo leí que hace mucho tiempo, algo como 50 años, 45 años, mucho tiempo. En ese tiempo, la gente no estaba muy interesada en la cultura mexicana. Hoy en día hay mucho interés. Pero puedo ver algunas diferencias. La gente que está hablando de esa época o de la historia, hoy en día no es lo original, ¿sabes? Es difícil todavía tener el estilo original. Por supuesto, algo va a cambiar en ¿no? En la historia. Pero por supuesto, tal vez en la cultura antigua el significado es muy diferente de hoy en día.

Ellos entienden, por ejemplo, lo que hicieron para matar a alguien, asesinar a alguien. Ellos entienden algo diferente de hoy en día. Cuando los conquistadores, cuando Hernán Cortés conquistó Tenochtitlán y vieron las pirámides, hubo mucha sangre, mucha matanza, muchas personas muertas. Entonces, los españoles se asustaron ¿sabes? El significado de la muerte es muy diferente. 

Por ejemplo, hoy en día, en la cultura mexicana, usamos las calaveritas pequeñas, pequenas calaveritas. Pero en el resto de la historia oscura, la historia real, los aztecas mataron a muchas personas, ¿sabes? Entonces, los monjes españoles trataron de cambiar ese significado. Y ahora es como divertido o como fiestera. 

Entendemos la muerte un poco diferente. Entonces, el significado, por supuesto, va a cambiar de una lengua a otra.

[Speaker 1]

Decía que si, es contarle que sepan también como yo, saber de su historias ¿no? Y si, porque no saber en alemán, en japonés, en ruso ¿si? Tal vez sea original de los Indígenas Náhuatl o Mayas, Aztecas ¿si? No cambiaría, no cambiaría nada. Es como lo cuentas, como lo dices porque si yo le ponía atención a los señores mayores que me decían eso, entonces yo me ponía a pensar ¿no? Se lo pueden informar hasta en un cuento

[Speaker 2]

Entonces Agustín dice que es importante aprender estas historias en otras lenguas, incluso si el original es Náhuatl, Mayan, o tradiciones Azteca. Y él dice, las historias no cambian, es realmente sobre cómo te cuentan la historia. Así que pregunté sobre cómo tal vez las historias trascienden el modo en que las cuentas.

Y él dice, sí, es el modo en que describes las historias. Bien, así que Agustín dice que le diría, o le preguntaría por qué estas historias son importantes. Y solo para clarificar, le pregunté qué es lo que quiere que sus profesores de inglés sepan.

Y sería, tal vez, preguntar más de dónde vengo yo y, sí, como ha sido mi camino, para que podamos partir de ahí. Gracias, Agustín. 

[Speaker 5] 

Bueno, yo sí pienso que la esencia se va perdiendo cuando la van traduciendo a otros idiomas. Se pierde como, como el principio. O sea, que hay cosas que no se pueden traducir. Entonces, cuando tú intentas traducirla, se pierde un poco la esencia de lo que estás diciendo. Hay una transculturización cuando le metes otro idioma. 

[Speaker 1]

Tiene sentido. 

[Speaker 2]

Johanna dice que cree que la esencia se pierde cuando se traducen estas historias. Dice que tal vez la esencia de la manera en que los indígenas solían contarla se pierde, o algo ahí está perdido. Ella dice que hay partes primarias que pueden ser perdidas cuando se traduce. Ella dice, que si cree que haya modificaciones hechas cuando se traduce. Y hay modificaciones transculturales que se hacen cuando se traduce o interpreta. 

[Speaker 5]

De los profesores, así como uno aprende de los profesores, uno también enseña y da a conocer la cultura de nuestros países.

[Speaker 2]

Johanna dice que quiere que también aprendan sobre mi país y mis orígenes. Quiero que sepan de mi cultura, mi esencia, y cómo contar historias de esta manera hermosa. Ella dice, de una manera rosa. Ella dice que todas nuestras historias vienen de nuestros orígenes indígenas. Somos parte de estas historias originales, no solo en América Latina, sino en todos los territorios indígenas. Ellos cuentan esta historia desde el punto de vista de la naturaleza, y eso es lo que son las esencias indígenas. Nos cuentan cómo llegamos a ser. Entonces, ellos cuentan esta creación de la tierra de una manera hermosa. Así que ella desea que la manera en que aprendamos a través de estas historias, o la manera en que ella aprende de ellos, también puedan ser aprendidas por los maestros. 

[Speaker 5]

Si, y también, perdón que no lo dije antes. Pero también es una forma de decir que todos los países nosotros, Latinoamérica, tiene unas economías y unas políticas realmente de catástrofe, entonces también damos a conocer la esencia de lo que somos. O sea, de que somos un país lindo, que tenemos un origen lindo. O sea, y que no, que no todo es feo, ni todo es, ni todo es agresión, ni todo es peligro, ni todo es tragedia, ¿sabes? Que también tenemos una... La esencia realmente de lo que somos es que somos unos países hermosos, con unas historias hermosas, que lamentablemente por la situación política, en el caso de Venezuela, este, lo que se conoce es lo feo, y no lo realmente bonito, y lo realmente... De lo que, de lo que somos realmente, de lo bello y hermoso que es el país.

Speaker 2

En estas historias, es importante compartir que, incluso a través de las luchas políticas, nuestros países en América Latina son hermosos. La manera en que contamos estas historias, que somos más que esa manera política de ver nuestro mundo, que hay más que la violencia, más que las maneras catastróficas de ver nuestros países, que nuestros países son hermosos, y que, desafortunadamente, a través de nuestras luchas políticas, eso es todo lo que vemos, pero a través de contar esta historia, que podemos ver qué hermosos nuestros países son. 

[music]

[Credits]

[Speaker 3]

Este podcast ha sido producido con el apoyo del Centro Simpsons de la Universidad de Washington y del Colegio de Artes y Ciencias de la Universidad de Washington y el National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge Grant.

[Speaker 6]

Gracias especialmente a nuestros invitados por compartir generosamente los tesoros que estas historias son para sus familias y comunidades. Más información sobre sus historias y otros involucrados en este proyecto pueden encontrarse en nuestro sitio web de podcast www.translationships.net. 

[Speaker 3]

El título de nuestro podcast fue inspirado por Force11, Open Multilingual y Global Scholarly Communication Working Group, que desafía a la comunidad de comunicación escolar global a desarrollar más abiertamente y adecuadamente relaciones de traducción, a través de culturas, idiomas, regiones, pandemias, disciplinas y perspectivas mundiales, como aparece en el artículo de Spence y Brandao sobre sensibilidad lingüística y diversidad en las humanidades digitales. 

[Speaker 6]

Nuestros colaboradores para este proyecto incluyen apoyo lingüístico y pedagógico de Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Sideret y Bixin Fu. Apoyo tecnológico y logístico de Frank Macarthy y Elliott Stevens.

[Speaker 3]

La canción de la introducción es una remix de Mercedes Sosa y Valderrama por Kermesse, un grupo de Buenos Aires formado en 2015 por el dúo Fase y Gertz, o Muno, y licenciado por Creative Commons.

[Music]

"cacaxtla mural - bird man" by Xuan Che is licensed under CC BY 2.0. 

In this episode, we learn more about our guests’ stories: Martha’s “A natural disaster” and Brenda’s “Viaje a Cacaxtla”. Both stories take place in different parts of Mexico and tell us about the ancient knowledge-making of the Mixtec and Olmec-Xicallanca peoples.

[Speaker 1]

Buenas tardes. Esta historia comienza en el puerto de Veracruz. Originalmente, éramos un grupo de veracruzanos que queríamos conocer más acerca de la cultura mexicana.

Y se desarrolla en la parte alta de una óptica que se encuentra en la calle de Cinco de Mayo en el puerto de Veracruz. La dueña, la señora Mimi Palacios, organizaba excursiones. En aquella ocasión, esta excursión fue realizada hacia Tlaxcala por un arqueólogo. No me puedo acordar la fecha exacta, pero….

We were very proud to be Mexicans and discover something that was already new.

I think at that time, Cacaxtla was only five years old, when the archaeologists found those ruins. At that time, I was only about 18 years old…

(music)

[Speaker 2]

Welcome to Storytelling Translationships. You were listening to a clip from Brenda's story, Viaje a Cacaxtla, in Spanish and English. To hear the full version, you can find it on our website, translationships.net. I'm Cristina Sánchez Martín, and in today’s episode, my co-host Taiko Aoki Marcial and I are talking with Brenda and Martha, who shared the story of a natural disaster with us. Martha and Brenda both shared stories with us recently, and we appreciate the detailed conversations we had around them, so we’ll try to put them into conversation right now. But first, could you give a short summary of your story for those who haven't heard it yet?

[Speaker 3]

Yes, sure. My name is Martha, and this story started in a village, and I first heard it from my grandmother. A scary story. When my grandmother told me that one day, at some point, one of the landslides just, maybe it could be more dangerous, because we heard that every year something happens, and each rock is just falling down each year. And for all the people in the village, it looked like something normal. But for me, hearing this story was so scary. And I passed this story to my kids, and I told them that when this story just got real, like something happened, the real thing happened in September 11th, 2011, when all the town just covered by water, and we noticed like, our ancestors already knew this story, they just passed like generation to generation, and we just waiting for this thing to happen. But we didn't know that it’s going to happen like so early. For me it was too early. And I just passed this story to my kids, and my kids just told me, “oh mom, I don’t know how you’re surviving that town, just knowing that something was going to happen”. For me, this story is a nightmare, but at the same time, it’s like I recognize the ancestors know what happened and the knowledge of the ancestors, knowing that this thing is something that they share, and we just pass by voice from generation to generation. 

[Speaker 2]

Thank you. And Brenda?

[Speaker 1]

Well, my name is Brenda Perez, and this history happened to me when my mom was alive. We did a trip from Veracruz to Tlaxcala, especially to Cacáxcala, in order to know some archaeological ruins. Cacáxcala is a Nahuatl word that means something for carrying, merchandise, even groceries. And, during that trip, we have a lot of fun, but at the same time we didn't know what we can expect. We were just taking the bus until San Miguel, and then we start to walk around the hills around six hours until we saw a big metallic structure, and when we discovered was Cacáxcala, that is a ceremonial building, especially for rituals and residential, and kinds of government uses. But the important thing about these places is the decoration, because we were just excited to see the different colors, especially blue, yellow and red, where they describe the life at that time. Especially about the corn, the corn was an important symbol for them, because it was part of the culture. And another kind of interesting things was the knife, kind of eagle knife or tiger knife. And that history is connected with my grandmother too, because she was actually from Apan, Tlaxcala. So, when we went back to that place, we didn’t, I didn't know especially that my grandmother was from Tlaxcala too. But it’s a connection for me. It was very weird come back to the place where my grandma was born.

[Speaker 4]

Thank you so much for that, for those summaries of those stories. One thing that we kind of noticed from listening to the full stories was a common theme that both of you brought up in your retelling about the ancestor’s knowledge being passed on through the stories. For example, Brenda, you talked about the importance of corn in the Cacáxcala murals of the Olmeca and Xicallanca people. And you asked, how would they have known that corn was so nutritious? And you point out that one of the things that surprised you the most was realizing all the knowledge that they had on gastronomy, engineering, art, etc. And then, Marta, you also explicitly say “los antepasados eran sabíos, ellos ya sabían”, because the story your grandmother told you about the landslide was seen as a premonition that became reality. Could you both talk a little bit more about how stories help us to appreciate, recognize and realize the knowledge these ancestors have been sharing through stories and through art?

[Speaker 2]

Yeah. For me, it sounds very interesting when I hear this story from my grandma because she really told me this story like, she already maybe read it in some article or something like that, because when she told me this story it’s like just going, like a sequence. She just like, ok, in some point this is going to happen, but also when she told me this story she told me like, you know we hear this story from our ancestors, but also we are doing some things, like recognize the importance of rain and the importance to talk with the god of the rain, you know. And I think it is very important to recognize, like all the ancestors, the knowledge is so, for me, is something, something extraordinary. Like they already know many stories. This is one of the things I heard from my grandma, like this catastrophe is going to happen, but you know, there are many, many things coming from the ancestors. And I just try to recognize this, that it’s very important to listen and know some kind of stories coming from the ancestors, because it sounds like a story, but at the end it has some meaning.

[Speaker 1]

One of the murals, because Cacáxcala is known for the colors in the paint, but if you see details, most of them has corn, corns, very tall, about two meters, and when you look up closer, those are not corns, those are faces, like Olmecas faces and the connection between corn being a specific part of the Mexican nutrition is corn has one essential amino acid, it is tryptophan, that is essential for survive. We don’t know exactly how they have that knowledge about this essential amino acid that comes in the tortilla, but they reflect that kind of important nutrition in their life with paint. For me it was very interesting in that moment when I saw the ruins, I couldn’t make the connection because it was like seeing a movie, for me it was like seeing a movie in the past, how they were living, especially I remember they have paints about constellations, stars, that’s how they were just looking at special constellations. This part could be a secret to discover still, because they were just talking especially about Venus, but the corn, how they know this is an essential amino acid in the nutrition? I mean for Mexico, because the tortilla is part of the daily life in Mexico, and even for us that we live outside of Mexico, no? So, those are like for me the biggest secrets besides of the, they describe how they were fighting between warriors in that time and how they were wearing the outfits, because they were kings, no? Not only the soldiers, but those things, especially the corns, because when they were painting a corn, the plant, every corno had the color green color, no? But it was a face, a human face, like a human, every human was, they come from a corn. I don't know if I can explain, so it was like that the corn was like the mother, it’s the explanation that I found.

[Speaker 2]

Another aspect that was relevant in both of your stories was what Martha called “unir generaciones”. Brenda’s story is also about her mom and you just said that about your grandma as well who was from that area, and how your mom and you were traveling together, and how the story developed. And then Martha said that it was her grandmother who heard the story from first, even though there were other eldersin her town who would talk about it too. Both of you have also said you would pass on the stories on to your children. So, how do these stories help to unite generations, in Martha’s words, from your experience? And why do you want to pass on the stories on to your children?

[Speaker 3]

I think the first, the emotion, the emotion is so big when we hear about, when I hear this story from my grandma, but also when I just pass this story to my kids, the emotion is like, Oh my God, that’s so big! But this is like a big thing to you, for us, because when I hear this story it comes from Mixteco language, then I pass this in Spanish, but my kids, they still doing that just when we saw some news from some part of the world that is the same thing is happening. And my kids just told this story in English that, that happened in my grandma’s town, and you know, this is a big impact because even people, if they don’t know the village, they really talk to us like if we are a big family, you know? Because when this happened in the town, I had many friends came to me and they said, 

“Ok, we are here, do you need support? Your family is okay?” 

And you know, it’s like, I felt, I felt at the moment like there is no, there is no people, there is no person, like they don’t really feel this, this emotion, and that, for me that's like a big thing, because all the people around my family just came to us, not only family, not only people from the village, but people from all there, like, that happened in 2011 and there are still people like just came to me, or come to me and ask me if my family is okay, if everybody are okay in that town, and I think that is the way, I feel like it's not only the family, it's all the people. I noticed that, that many people feel in the same way that I felt at that time.

[Speaker 1]

Yeah, I think, I'm thinking right now, it's something that I haven't think about it, but it's like, I have the opportunity to discover old treasure, because what they did, painting that history about the daily life, they know that they’re going to pass in the future, so they try to leave behind what they think is going to be important for future generations, no? Saying for example, corn is going to be so important in Mexican cultures, in Mexican families, even if you pass for some kind of disgrace or some difficult times, we were a big city, we have a big tradition in our life, we can share this with you, because usually people when they see Mexico, they think of Chiclán, or Cancún, in archaeological, or Tajín too, but that area, not everybody outside of Mexico they know about that area, but I think the relevant part about this is that they make something forever, for centuries, it's like go for the tortillas and you have this tortillas and frijoles, so how they know that? And, it's like they were predicting something that was going to happen many centuries later, no? That's just my opinion.

[Speaker 4]

I think it’s really interesting that both your stories, Martha and Brenda, have this idea that the ancestors knew something that was important, whether it was this disaster that was going to happen, or whether it was the fact that corn was important to the people and would be important to the people for many, many generations, this idea that there was a premonition, there was like a future vision of the people in the past, that they kind of knew what would, what would be important for their, for future generations, I think that’s an interesting connection, even though it’s very different the premonitions that they had, you know, one was about kind of the daily life and the importance of corn, and one was about kind of an isolated disaster, but they were both kind of this future looking visions of our ancestors, which I think is really interesting.

This next question is kind of about language and the language of these stories. So, thinking about how language is the conduit to the retelling of stories, and you both used Spanish, as you mentioned, you know, to tell them, but recognize that languages ​​like Mixtec or Olmeca are part of these stories, since they were first told in these languages. In addition, you're also telling them in English, or Marta, as you said, your children are telling them in English as well, in different contexts. So, how do you think the story changes, or not, depending on the language, or combination of languages, in which it is told? Is it important to convey the meaning and teachings of the stories? Is language important in this aspect? And then finally, what would you tell teachers that you work with about this, about the languages ​​that these stories hold? What would you want teachers and other folks who work with these stories in educational settings to know?

[Speaker 3]

Yes. I think I'm so proud to speak this language, Mixteco. And, yes, hearing this story for the first time from my grandma in Mixteco is very important to me, because now, when I just try to pass this story to my children, I do it in Spanish, but my kids, when they just try to talk with someone, or even if I just have to talk this story with someone else about this story, I just try to do it in English.

For me, the language is very important and I know that it doesn't matter what kind of language the story comes from, because you know that feeling, the sentiment is there. And I think we just try to pass this story in any languages, but also doing in Mixteco, in Spanish, in English is very important to me, because the generations are there. My ancestors and my generation but also my kid's generation.

[Speaker 1]

And yes, because I think it changed. It depends on the languages that the listener have.  Because for understand the importance, they need to know some of the meanings. For example, Cacáxtla was a city on top of some hills, so they have excellent view and they can even have a connection with another populations. But at the same time, something for keep the attention or for try to share more information about that is if we can even show them the paintings about Olmecas, what they did in the murals, because some of them those are murals like thirty meters large and they can understand more about the context, because talking about the corns or how they were making reference about the importance of this food is more appropriate if they can see the murals and the colors, because otherwise, just we can say that this happened and this happened, no? I can describe that because I was there, but for people who are English speakers, I think it's important that we can show them some of the pictures of that places, because they can get the full idea about that important group in Mexico, no? They disappeared years later because was different kinds of wars, they didn't have enough food or around, they lived like more than 600 years. But I think it absolutely changed, if you're an English speaker, because it's different. Our country has many years in this earth. We don't know exactly how long, how old is Mexico, because those cultures, for example, one of the buildings, the walls, they were just huge, so wide, like two meters in depth. So, for an English speakers who are from this country, it's better if we can show them some videos about Cacáxtla, no? I think it would be easier for them to understand what we are trying to explain them. 

[Speaker 2]

And what would you want your teachers and other people who are engaging with the stories to know? 

[Speaker 1]

How they can do that kind of beautiful art. Because it's art. It's not only drawings, it's art, how they make combinations with natural pigments and natural colors. I haven’t seen those, I think it's kind of the, it’s, I’m not sure, it's only the one culture who had that kind of colors in Mexico, but I think that’s irrelevant. For me, art, besides the information, besides cosmology and all the meanings when they had the eagle knife, or the tiger knife, or the corn, but it’s the art. When you see art, it is like, make you feel happy with those kinds of colors. It's just so beautiful, no? How they combine all the different colors and elements, because they have tigers, they have frogs, they have snakes, they have arrows, water. So, there is too much to investigate in that culture, no? But the color is just something so interesting and new, no? That's why Cacáxtla was very popular in that time, and I think could be good if the world can know that part of Mexico. Not everyone knows, even many Mexicans don't know it.

[Speaker 3]

I think for me, it’s very important to recognize our culture, the knowledge of our ancestors, and also to know how to describe some stories, because sometimes we hear many stories, and I say, ok, just it’s like maybe just some story, like a fairytale, but at the end, it’s not, because the ancestors, wow, I always say, like maybe if we can just try to h hear many stories and just try to find, maybe we can’t, we can’t find the meaning, but for sure they know everything, they knew, and if we pass this story to our generations, my kids, and maybe we can just try to wait, we don’t really wait for something bad to happen, like this situation happened, but maybe some things, because there are many stories in the village, but this is one of the greatest stories, and at the same time, sad story come true, it came true, but I know I just want to contribute to this story, to tell people how to listen to some stories, and just try to reflect ourselves.

[Speaker 2]

Wonderful. We’re going to end with that reflection, and something else you said in a previous conversation, “escuchar es el aprendizaje, escuchar historias de nuestras antepasados, es bonito escuchar aunque no se cree a veces, lo bonito es escuchar”. Listening is what allows us to learn, and listening to these stories is beautiful, even if you don’t believe in it, the beautiful part of all of this is to listen. So, how do we know when people are listening and learning? And what would you want the listeners of this podcast to pay attention to when they are engaging with your stories?

[Speaker 3]

I think it’s a little bit difficult, if I just try to tell the story without, like Brenda said, without a video, without some article, because sometimes people just believe when they see something, and I think we have to listen. I just invite a person from the village to just try to know more about this story, and for me, it’s very important to learn, but first listen, because, you know, if I just try to find some article on the internet or just talk with my family member, I know that’s ok, but also coming from other people, what happened to them? And I think that’s the most important thing, to learn by listening to people.

[Speaker 1]

And I think even Cacáxtla has the images, the paintings, the murals, what they did for us, because they paint their life every day, not only for Mexico, I think for the entire world. It’s like a treasure, actually but we can even try to describe all the information that they have over there. I think there’s more knowledge to know about what they are trying to say. Maybe there are more secrets, no? What they were just painting in their life, because it’s like they were predicting how it’s going to be important for survive in the future, no? I remember about water, rain, and food was kind of the most important stuff. And the cosmology, they were thinking too much about cosmology. And I think even if people that they are from different nationalities, they can understand that it’s a legacy for the next generation and for people from every part of the world, no? It’s an important thing about Cacaxtla, no? It’s a gift for the future, no? For entire people, for entire life. And thank God, they discovered that place, no? Because what history says is that a farmer was doing his job and he discovered by accident some stone with that paint that’s how Cacáxtla was discovered long time ago.

So, “serendipia” is a word in Spanish, I think in English it’s serendipity, no? It’s like everything, there’s no casualities, it’s for some reason, no? But it’s a nice history in Mexico that not even every Mexican know about that place.

[Speaker 2]

Thank you. Let’s end with that idea of serendipity. And thank you both so much for everything that you have shared with us. We’re going to end with this call to action for us to listen more deeply to the stories and from people’s experiences. And thanks again both of you for your generosity, with gratitude and “hasta pronto”.

(Music)

Credits

[Speaker 2] 

This podcast has been produced with support from the University of Washington Simpson Center and the College of Arts and Sciences, and a National Endowment for the Humanities Challenge grant. Special thanks to our guests for generously sharing the treasures that these stories are for their families and communities. More information about their stories and others involved in this project can be found on our podcast website at www.translationships.net. The title of our podcast was inspired by Force11, Open Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication Working Group, which challenges the global academic community to more openly and appropriately develop translationships, translational relationships across cultures, languages, regions, flags, disciplines, and global perspectives, as appears in Spence and Brandao’s 2021 article ““Towards Language Sensitivity and Diversity in the Digital Humanities.”

[Speaker 4]

Our collaborators for this project include language and pedagogical support from Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Siderey, and Bixin Fu. Technology and logistical support from Frank Macarthy and Elliott Stevens. In the introduction, we quote Kimmerer's Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teaching of Plants and the introduction by Joy Harjo to the Living Nations Living Worlds. The introduction song is a remix of Mercedes Sosa’s Balderrama by Kermesse, a group from Buenos Aires formed in 2015 by the duo Fase & Gertz a.k.a. MUNO, and licensed under the Creative Commons.

[Speaker 1]

Buenas tardes, esta historia comienza en el puerto de Veracruz. Originalmente éramos un grupo de veracruzanos que queríamos conocer más acerca de la cultura mexicana y se desarrolla en la parte alta de una óptica que se encuentra en la calle de Cinco de Mayo, en el puerto de Veracruz. La dueña, la señora Mimi Palacios, organizaba excursiones.

En aquella ocasión, esta excursión fue realizada hacia Tlaxcala por un arqueólogo. No me puedo acordar la fecha exacta pero…

(Translation from English)

Estábamos  muy orgullosos de ser mexicanos y descubrir algo que ya era nuevo.

Creo que en ese momento, Cacaxtla tenía solo cinco años, cuando los arqueólogos encontraron esas ruinas. En ese momento, yo solo tenía alrededor de 18 años…

[Speaker 2]

Bienvenidos a Storytelling Translationships. Estabas escuchando un clip de la historia de Brenda, Viaje a Cacaxtla, en español y en inglés.

Para escuchar la versión completa, puedes encontrarla en nuestra website, translationships.net. Soy Cristina Sánchez Martín, y en el episodio de hoy, mi co-host Taiko Aoki Marcial y yo estamos hablando con Brenda y con Martha, quien nos contó la historia de un desastre natural. 

Martha y Brenda, ambas compartieron historias con nosotros recientemente, y apreciamos las conversaciones detalladas que tuvimos alrededor de ellas, así que intentaremos ponerlas en conversación ahora mismo.

Pero antes, ¿podríais proporcionar un resumen corto de tu historia para aquellos que aún no lo han escuchado?

[Speaker 3]

Sí, claro. Mi nombre es Martha, y esta historia empezó en una aldea, y la primera vez que la escuché fue de mi abuela. Una historia que daba miedo/asombrosa.

Cuando mi abuela me dijo que algún día, en algún momento, una de las montañas podría ser más peligrosa, porque escuchamos que cada año algo sucede, y cada roca cae cada año. Y para todos los que vivían en la aldea, parecía algo normal. Pero para mí, escuchar esta historia me daba miedo.

Y le pasé esta historia a mis hijos, y les dije que cuando esta historia se volvió real, como si algo sucediera, la verdadera cosa sucedió en septiembre de 2011, cuando toda la aldea estaba cubierta de agua, y notamos que nuestros ancestros ya sabían de esta historia, y la pasaron de generación a generación, y esperábamos que esto sucediera. Pero no sabíamos que iba a suceder tan temprano. Para mí fue muy pronto.

Y le pasé esta historia a mis hijos, y mis hijos me dijeron que no sabían cómo sobrevivían en esa aldea, sabiendo que algo iba a suceder. Para mí, esta historia es una pesadilla, pero al mismo tiempo, reconozco que los ancestros saben lo que sucedió y el conocimiento de los ancestros, sabiendo que esta cosa es algo que comparten, y lo pasamos de voz de generación a generación. Gracias.

[Speaker 2]

¿Y Brenda?

[Speaker 1]

Bueno, mi nombre es Brenda Perez, y esta historia me sucedió cuando mi mamá estaba viva. Hicimos un viaje de Veracruz a Tlaxcala, especialmente a Cacaxtla, para conocer algunas de las aldeas arqueológicas. Cacaxtla es una palabra náhuatl que significa algo para cargar, mercados, incluso grocerías.

Durante ese viaje, tuvimos muchas ganas, pero al mismo tiempo no sabíamos qué esperar. Sólo tomamos el bus hasta San Miguel, y luego empezamos a caminar por las aldeas durante seis horas hasta que vimos una gran estructura metálica, y cuando descubrimos que era Cacaxtla, que es un edificio ceremonial, especialmente para rituales y vida residencial y usos de gobierno. Pero lo importante de estos lugares es la decoración, porque nos emocionó ver los diferentes colores, especialmente azul, azul y rojo, donde describen la vida en ese momento.

Especialmente sobre el maíz, el maíz fue un símbolo importante para ellos, porque fue parte de la cultura. Otra cosa interesante fue la espada, una especie de espada o espada de tigre. Esa historia está conectada con mi abuela también, porque ella era de Apan, Tlaxcala.

Cuando volvimos a ese lugar, no sabía que mi abuela era de Tlaxcala. Esa es la conexión para mí. Fue muy raro volver al lugar donde nació mi abuela.

[Speaker 4]

Muchas gracias por esos resúmenes de esas historias. Una cosa que notamos cuando escuchamos las historias completas fue un tema común que ambos trajeron en sus retos sobre el conocimiento de los antepasados que se pasaba a través de las historias. Por ejemplo, Brenda, hablaste sobre la importancia del maíz en los murales de Cacaxtla y los murales de los Olmecas y Xicalancas.

Y preguntaste, ¿cómo sabrían que el maíz era tan nutritivo? Y señalabas que una de las cosas que te sorprendieron más fue saber todo el conocimiento que tenían sobre gastronomía, ingeniería, arte, etc. Y luego, Marta, tú también dices de forma explícita que los antepasados eran sabios.

Ellos ya sabían. Porque la historia que tu abuela te contó sobre el deslizamiento de tierra fue visto como una premonición que se convirtió en realidad. ¿Podrías hablar un poco más sobre cómo las historias nos ayudan a apreciar, reconocer y dar cuenta del conocimiento que estos antepasados han estado compartiendo a través de historias y arte?

[Speaker 2]

Sí. Para mí, suena muy interesante cuando escucho esta historia de mi abuela porque realmente me contó esta historia. Quizás ya la he leído en algún artículo o algo así, porque cuando me contó esta historia fue como una secuencia.

Me contó que en algún punto esto iba a suceder, pero también cuando me contó esta historia me dijo que escuchamos esta historia de nuestros antepasados, pero también estamos haciendo algunas cosas, como reconocer la importancia de la lluvia y la importancia de hablar con el dios de la lluvia. Y creo que es muy importante reconocer que todos los antepasados, el conocimiento, para mí es algo extraordinario. Ya saben muchas historias.

Esta es una de las cosas que oí de mi abuela, que esta catástrofe va a suceder, pero hay muchas cosas que vienen de los antepasados. Y creo que es importante escuchar y saber algunas historias que vienen de los antepasados, porque suena como una historia, pero al final tiene algún significado.

[Speaker 1]

Una de las murallas, porque Cacaxtla es conocida por los colores en la pintura, pero si ven los detalles, la mayoría de ellos tienen maíz, muy altos, alrededor de dos metros, y cuando se miran más cerca, esos no es maíz, son caras, y la conexión entre el maíz siendo una parte específica de la nutrición mexicana es que el maíz tiene un aminoácido esencial, es el triptófano, que es esencial para sobrevivir. No sabemos exactamente cómo tienen ese conocimiento sobre este aminoácido esencial que viene en la tortilla, pero reflejan ese tipo de nutrición importante en su vida con la pintura. Para mí fue muy interesante en ese momento cuando vi las murallas, no pude hacer la conexión porque fue como ver una película, para mí fue como ver una película en el pasado, cómo vivían, especialmente recuerdo que tienen pinturas sobre constelaciones, estrellas, eso es cómo estaban mirando constelaciones especiales.

Esta parte puede ser un secreto para descubrir todavía, porque estaban hablando especialmente de Venus, pero el maíz , cómo saben que es un aminoácido esencial en la nutrición, para México, porque la tortilla es parte de la vida diaria en México, e incluso para nosotros que vivimos fuera de México. Así que para mí esos son los mayores secretos además de describir cómo estaban luchando entre guerreros en ese momento y cómo se vestían sus ropas, porque eran reyes, no solo los soldados, pero esas cosas, especialmente el maíz, porque cuando pintaban el maíz, cada uno tenía color verde, pero era un rostro, un rostro humano, como un humano, cada humano era... venían de una mazorca de maíz, no sé si puedo explicarlo, así que era como si el maíz fuera la madre, es la explicación que tengo.

[Speaker 2]

Otro aspecto que fue relevante en ambas de sus historias fue lo que Martha llamó unir generaciones. Brenda también ha hablado de sus mamás, y has dicho también de tu abuela, que era de esa zona, y cómo tu mamá y tú viajabas juntos, y cómo se desarrolló la historia. Y luego Martha dijo que fue su abuela la que escuchó la historia antes, aunque había otros abuelos en su ciudad que hablaban de esto también.

Ambos de ustedes también dijeron que pasarían las historias a sus hijos. ¿Cómo estas historias ayudan a unir generaciones en las palabras de Martha desde su experiencia? ¿Y por qué quieren pasar las historias a sus hijos?

[Speaker 3]

Creo que primero la emoción es tan grande cuando escucho esta historia de mi abuela, pero también cuando paso esta historia a mis hijos, la emoción es como ¡Dios mío, es tan grande! Pero esto es una gran cosa para nosotros, porque cuando escucho esta historia viene de un lenguaje y luego lo paso en español, pero mis hijos siguen haciendo esto, cuando escuchamos noticias de algún lugar del mundo que la misma cosa está sucediendo. Y mis hijos han contado esta historia en inglés que sucedió en mi ciudad de mi abuela, y este es un gran impacto porque incluso si la gente no conoce la aldea, realmente nos hablan como si fuéramos una gran familia, porque cuando esto sucedió en la ciudad, tuve muchos amigos que me vinieron y me decían, ok, estamos aquí, ¿necesitas apoyo?

¿Tu familia está bien? Es como, me sentí en ese momento como no hay personas que realmente no sientan esta emoción, y para mí eso es una cosa importante, porque toda la gente de mi familia nos vino, no solo familia, no solo gente de la aldea, pero gente de todos los lugares. Eso sucedió en 2011 y todavía hay gente que vino y me preguntó si mi familia estaba bien, si todos estaban bien en la aldea, y creo que de esa manera siento que no es solo la familia, es toda la gente.

He notado que muchas personas se sienten de la misma manera que yo me sentí en ese momento.

[Speaker 1]

Sí, creo que estoy pensando ahora mismo, es algo que no he pensado sobre, pero es como tengo la oportunidad de descubrir un tesoro antiguo, porque lo que hicieron, pintando esa historia sobre la vida diaria, saben que van a pasar en el futuro, pero intentan dejar atrás lo que piensan que va a ser importante para generaciones futuras, por ejemplo, el maíz va a ser tan importante en las culturas mexicanas, en las familias mexicanas, incluso si pasan por algún tipo de desastre, en algunos momentos difíciles fuimos una gran ciudad, tenemos una gran tradición en nuestra vida, podemos compartir esto con ustedes, porque usualmente cuando la gente ve a México, piensan en Tenochtitlan, o Cancún, en la arqueología, o Tajín, pero esa zona, no todos afuera de México saben de esa zona, pero creo que la parte relevante de esto es que hicieron algo para siempre, para centuries, es como ir a las tortillas y tienes solo tortillas y frijoles, entonces, ¿cómo saben eso?

Es como si estuvieran predicando algo que iba a pasar muchos siglos después, ¿no? Es solo mi opinión.

[Speaker 4]

Creo que es realmente interesante que ambos tus historias, Martha y Brenda, tienen esta idea de que los antepasados sabían algo que era importante, no importa si fue un desastre que iba a suceder, o no importa si fue el hecho de que el maíz era importante para la gente y sería importante para la gente durante muchas generaciones, esta idea de que había una premonición, una visión futura de la gente en el pasado, que sabían lo que sería importante para futuras generaciones, creo que es una conexión interesante, aunque sea muy diferente las premoniciones que tenían, una era sobre la vida diaria y la importancia del maíz, y una era sobre un desastre aislado, pero ambos eran estas visiones futuras de nuestros antepasados, que creo que es realmente interesante.

La siguiente pregunta es sobre la lengua y la lengua de tus historias. Entonces, pensando sobre cómo la lengua es el conducto para la recitación de historias, y ambos usasteis español, como mencionaste, para contarles, pero reconoces que lenguas como Mixteco o Olmeca son parte de estas historias, desde que fueron primeras contadas en estas lenguas. Además, también las estás contando en inglés, o Martha, como dijiste, tus hijos las están contando en inglés también, en diferentes contextos.

Entonces, ¿cómo crees que la historia cambia, o no, dependiendo de la lengua, o una combinación de lenguas en las que es contada? ¿Es importante convenir el significado y las enseñanzas de las historias? ¿La lengua es importante en este aspecto?

Y finalmente, ¿qué dirías a los maestros con los que trabajas sobre esto, sobre las lenguas que estas historias cuentan? ¿Qué quieres que los maestros y otras personas que trabajan con estas historias en los sentidos educativos sepan?

[Speaker 3]

Sí. Creo que estoy muy orgullosa de hablar esta lengua, Mixteco. Y, sí, escuchar esta historia por primera vez de mi abuela en Mixteco es muy importante para mí, porque ahora, cuando solo intento transmitir esta historia a mis hijos, lo hago en español, pero mis hijos, cuando solo intentan hablar con alguien, o incluso si solo necesito hablar con alguien sobre esta historia, lo hago en inglés.

Para mí, la lengua es muy importante y sé que no importa qué tipo de lengua la historia viene de, porque el sentimiento está ahí. Y creo que solo intentamos transmitir esta historia en cualquier lengua, pero también hacer en Mixteco, en español, en inglés es muy importante para mí, porque las generaciones están ahí. Mis antepasados son mi generación y también mi generación y la de mis hijos.

[Speaker 1]

Y, sí, porque creo que ha cambiado. Depende de la lengua que el escuchador utilice. Para entender la importancia, necesitan saber algunos de los significados.

Por ejemplo, Cacaxtla es una ciudad en la cima de algunas montañas, así que tienen una vista excelente e incluso pueden tener conexión con otras poblaciones. Pero, al mismo tiempo, algo para mantener la atención o intentar compartir más información sobre eso es si podemos incluso mostrarles las pinturas sobre Olmecas, lo que hicieron en los murales, porque algunos de ellos son murales grandes, como 30 metros de largo y pueden entender más sobre el contexto, porque hablar sobre el maíz o cómo hicieron referencia sobre la importancia de esta comida es más apropiado. Pueden ver los murales y los colores, porque si no, sólo podemos decir que esto y esto sucedió, ¿no?

Puedo describir eso porque estuve allí, pero para la gente que es hablante inglés, creo que es importante que podamos mostrarles algunas de las pinturas de esos lugares, porque pueden tener una idea completa sobre ese grupo importante en México. Desaparecieron años después porque hubo diferentes tipos de guerras, no tenían suficiente comida o alrededor, vivieron como más de 600 años. Pero creo que  la historia absolutamente cambia, si es un hablante inglés, porque es diferente.

Nuestro país tiene muchos años en esta tierra. No sabemos exactamente cuánto tiempo tiene México, porque esas culturas, por ejemplo, uno de los edificios, las paredes, eran tan grandes, tan amplias, como dos metros de profundidad. Entonces, para un hablante inglés que es de este país, es mejor si podemos mostrarles algunos videos sobre Cacaxtla.

Creo que sería más fácil para ellos entender lo que estamos intentando explicarles. 

[Speaker 2]

Estupendo. ¿Y qué querrían que sus maestros y otras personas que están involucrándose con las historias supieran? ¿Cómo pueden hacer ese tipo de arte hermoso?

[Speaker 1]

Porque es arte. No es solo dibujos, es arte, cómo hacen combinación con pigmentos naturales y colores naturales. No lo vi, creo que, no estoy segura, es sólo una cultura que tiene ese tipo de colores en México, pero creo que es relevante.

Para mí, el arte, además de la información, además de la cosmología y todos los significados cuando tenían la espada del ego, o la espada del tigre, o el maíz, pero es el arte. Cuando ves el arte, es como hacerte sentir feliz con ese tipo de colores. Es tan hermoso, ¿no? Cómo combinan todos los diferentes colores y elementos, porque tienen tigres, tienen ranas, tienen serpientes, tienen [ininteligible], agua. Entonces, hay demasiado que investigar en esa cultura, pero el color es algo tan interesante y nuevo. Es por eso que Cacaxtla fue muy popular en ese tiempo, y creo que sería bueno si el mundo pudiera conocer esa parte de México.

No todos lo conocen, incluso muchos mexicanos no lo conocen.

[Speaker 3]

Creo que para mí es muy importante reconocer nuestra cultura, el conocimiento de nuestros antepasados, y también saber cómo describir algunas historias, porque a veces escuchamos muchas historias, y digo, ok, es como tal vez una historia, como un cuento, pero al final no es así, porque los antepasados wow, siempre digo tal vez si podamos intentar escuchar muchas historias y intentar encontrar, tal vez no podemos, no podemos encontrar el significado, pero seguro que saben todo, lo sabían, y si pasamos esta historia a nuestras generaciones, mis hijos, y tal vez podamos intentar esperar, no esperamos realmente algo malo suceder, como esta situación sucedió, pero tal vez algunas cosas, porque hay muchas historias en la aldea, pero esta es una de las mejores historias, y al mismo tiempo, algunas historias sucedieron, pero sé que solo quiero contribuir a esta historia, a decirle a la gente cómo escuchar algunas historias, y intentar reflejarnos.

[Speaker 2]

Maravilloso. Terminaremos con esa reflexión, y algo más que dijiste en una conversación anterior, “escuchar es el aprendizaje, escuchar historias de nuestros antepasados, es bonito escuchar, aunque no se crea a veces, lo bonito es escuchar.” Escuchar es lo que nos permite aprender, y escuchar estas historias es hermoso, incluso si no lo crees, la parte hermosa de todo esto es escuchar. Entonces, ¿cómo sabemos cuándo la gente está escuchando y aprendiendo?

¿Y qué querrías que los escuchadores de este podcast presten atención cuando se involucran en sus historias?

[Speaker 3]

Creo que es un poco difícil, si solo intento contar la historia sin, como dijo Brenda, sin un video, sin algún artículo, porque a veces la gente solo cree cuando ve algo, y creo que tenemos que escuchar. Acabo de invitar a alguien de la aldea a intentar saber más sobre esta historia, y para mí es muy importante aprender, pero primero escuchar, porque si solo intento encontrar algún artículo en internet o solo hablar con un familiar mío, sé que es bien, pero también venir de otras personas, ¿qué les pasó? Y creo que eso es lo más importante, aprender escuchando a la gente.

[Speaker 1]

Y creo que incluso Cacaxtla tiene las imágenes, las pinturas, los murales, lo que hicieron para nosotros, porque pintan su vida cada día, no solo para México, creo que para todo el mundo. Es como un tesoro, pero podemos incluso intentar describir toda la información que tienen allí. Creo que hay más conocimiento sobre lo que intentan decir.

Tal vez haya más secretos, ¿no? Lo que estaban pintando en su vida, porque es como que estaban predicando cómo sería importante para sobrevivir en el futuro, ¿no? Recuerdo sobre agua, lluvia, y comida fue la cosa más importante.

Y la cosmología, estaban pensando tanto sobre la cosmología. Y creo que incluso si las personas son de diferentes nacionalidades, pueden entender que es un legado para la siguiente generación y para la gente de todos lados del mundo. Es una cosa importante de Cacaxtla, ¿no?

Es un regalo para el futuro, para toda la gente, toda la vida. Y gracias a Dios, descubrieron ese lugar, ¿no? Porque lo que la historia dice es que un agricultor estaba haciendo su trabajo y descubrió por accidente una piedra con la que la pintura fue descubierta hace mucho tiempo.

Entonces, “serendipia” es una palabra en español, creo que en inglés es serendipia, ¿sabes? Es como que todo, si no hay casualidades, es por alguna razón, ¿no? Pero es una buena historia en México que incluso no todos los mexicanos saben de ese lugar.

[Speaker 2]

Gracias. Vamos a terminar con esa idea de la serendipia. Y muchas gracias a ambos por todo lo que compartieron con nosotros.

Vamos a terminar con este llamado a acción para que nos escuchen más profundamente las historias y las experiencias de la gente. Y gracias nuevamente a ambos por su generosidad, con gratitud y hasta pronto. 

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Credits

[Speaker 2]

Este podcast ha sido producido con el apoyo de la Universidad de Washington Simpson Center y el Colegio de Artes y Ciencias y una beca Nacional  Endowment para the Humanities Challenge. Gracias especialmente a nuestros invitados por compartir generosamente los tesoros que estas historias son para sus familias y comunidades. Más información sobre sus historias y otros involucrados en este proyecto pueden encontrarse en nuestro podcast en www.translationships.net  El título de nuestro podcast fue inspirado por Forse11, Open Multilingual and Global Scholarly Communication Working Group que desafía a la comunidad académica global para desarrollar más abiertamente y adecuadamente relaciones de traducción a través de culturas, idiomas, regiones, banderas, disciplinas y perspectivas mundiales, como aparece en el artículo de 2021 sobre la sensibilidad lingüística y la diversidad en las humanidades digitales.

[Speaker 4]

Nuestros colaboradores para este proyecto incluyen apoyo lingüístico y pedagógico de Eloisa Aguirre, Francisco Siderey y Bixin Fu. Apoyo tecnológico y logístico de Frank McCarthy y Elliot Steven. En la introducción citamos Kimmerer's Braiding Sweegrasst, Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teaching of Plants y la introducción de Joy Harjo al sitio web Living Nations Living Worlds. La canción de la introducción es una remix de Mercedes Sosa's Balderrama por Kermesse, un grupo de Buenos Aires formado en 2015 por el dúo Fase & Gertz a.k.a. MUNO y licenciado por Creative Commons.

Welcome! Bienvenidos! 欢迎! እንኳን ደህና መጣህ ! 환영! Mabuhay! እንኳዕ ደሓን መፁ ! خوش آمدید ! E komo mai!
Chào mừng !

In this intro episode, hosts Cristina Sanchez-Martín and Taiko Aoki-Marcial introduce their multilingual storytelling podcast and discuss the values and inspiration behind the podcast and the translationships project.