John welcomes back Phil Hay (Destroyer, The Invitation) to ask, how do you get a movie made with independent financing? They look at how indie movies get made, where you get the money, deciding when to go indie, and whether streamers complicate the picture.

We also follow up on testing movies with focus groups and answer listener questions on how to navigate the editing room, daily routines, and what to do when your story has too many themes.

In our bonus segment for premium members, we look back on what Phil learned about D&D from his documentary The Dungeon Masters.

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You can download the episode here.

UPDATE 6-5-26: The transcript for this episode can be found here.