Sustain

Neil Chue Hong

Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman

In this episode of Sustain, hosts Richard Littauer and Justin Dorfman talk with Neil Chue Hong, Director of the Software Sustainability Institute (SSI). They discuss the SSI's mission to sustain software used in research, the institute's history and funding, the role of research software engineers, and the newly launched Research Software Maintenance Fund (RSMF) with £4.8 million dedicated to supporting research software. Neil shares insights into the collaboration, training initiatives, and policy work done by the SSI to promote sustainability in software development. The episode also touches on the impact of large funding initiatives like those from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative and the evolving role of software development in the age of large language models (LLMs). Hit the download button now!

[00:01:44] Neil explains SSI’s mission and purpose.

[00:02:27] Richard inquires about SSI’s funding model and how long SSI has existed. Neil explains SSI is a government funded collaboration via UK Research and Innovation (UKRI), and it was founded in 2010 and is funded through 2028.

[00:05:03] Richard highlights SSI’s impact and Neil discusses how SSI helped establish “Research Software Engineer (RSE)’ as a recognized role.

[00:08:20] SSI’s annual Collaborations Workshop (May 13-15 in Stirling, UK) is mentioned, and Neil recalls a pivotal collaboration with Greg Wilson (Software Carpentry), which expanded training programs.

[00:11:16] Neil explains that the SSI has evolved from consultancy to training, community initiatives, and policy advocacy to scale its impact and ensure long-term sustainability in research software.

[00:13:57] Richard introduces SSI’s new £4.8M Research Software Maintenance Fund (RSMF). Neil explains it supports maintaining existing research software and it’s funded by the UK’s Digital Research Infrastructure Programme (UKRI).

[00:16:54] A question comes up about the geopolitical impact of this funding and Neil states the UK is maintaining leadership in research software sustainability, not just focusing on national capability.

[00:20:54] Neil defines research software products being targeted by the RSMF as software used beyond its original development team.

[00:22:54] Richard asks if £4.8M is a significant investment and Neil explains this is comparable to past UK research software grants..

[00:25:10] Neil acknowledges Chan Zuckerberg Initiative (CZI) for improving funding models for research software.

[00:29:45] Justin asks how LLMs are changing research software engineering. Neil compares LLMs’ impact on software development to smartphones revolutionizing photography.

[00:34:05] Find out where you can connect with UKRI, SSI, and with Neil on the web.

[00:02:07] “We’ve got this motto: Better Software, Better Research.”

[00:29:03] “You can define what is clearly sci-fi, you can define what is clearly research software, but making an arbitrary cut-off point is really hard.”

Special Guest: Neil Chue Hong.

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Alison Hill

Richard Littauer

We’re kicking off the new year of Sustain with host Richard Littauer discussing sustaining open source software with guest, Alison Hill, VP of Product at Anaconda, and a cognitive scientist with a PhD in psychology. Alison shares her journey from academia to industry, emphasizing the importance of statistics and data science in her career. She explains her role at Anaconda, focusing on developing secure and compatible distribution of Python packages and managing the community repository, Anaconda.org. The conversation covers the significance of product management in open source projects, particularly those with corporate backing, and how these roles can help in balancing user needs and business goals. In addition, Alison shares her thoughts on the challenges and strategies for maintaining open source projects without corporate support and touches on the ‘palmer penguins’ project. Click to download now!

[00:01:13] Alison discusses her transition from academic research in cognitive science to industry and data science, emphasizing her passion for statistics and education.

[00:02:41] Alison explains her work at Anaconda, focusing on product management and the Anaconda distribution, aiming to ease the use of Python and R packages in the industry and academia. She also elaborates on other projects she oversees, including Anaconda.org and its role in supporting open source projects and enterprise needs.

[00:05:17] We hear how Anaconda sustains itself financially through enterprise offerings and the balance of supporting open source while maintaining a business model.

[00:07:14] Alison shares her previous experience as the first PM of data science communication at Posit (formerly RStudio) and her role in enhancing data science education and product development.

[00:12:49] Richard and Alison explore the challenges of sustaining open source projects without corporate backing and strategies for maintaining personal and project health in the open source community. Alison discusses common mistakes companies make by confusing project management with product management in open source projects.

[00:17:18] Richard asks about the skills needed for developers to adopt a product-oriented approach. Alison suggests that successful product-oriented developers often have high empathy for end-users and experience with the pain points at scale, which helps them anticipate and innovate solutions effectively.

[00:20:49] Richard expresses concerns about the sustainability of smaller, community-led open source projects that lack corporate backing and the structured support that comes with it. Alison acknowledges her limited experience with non-corporate open source projects but highlights the difficulty in maintaining such projects without institutional support, and she shares her personal challenges with keeping up with open source project demands.

[00:27:41] Alison stresses the importance of clear goals and understanding the implications of joining larger ecosystems, reflects on the need for clarity about the desired outcomes when joining larger ecosystems, and shares examples of successful and unsuccessful engagements in such settings.

[00:29:52] She discusses alternative sustainability models, including paid support and subscriptions.

[00:33:00] Alison brings up the example of Apache Arrow and the challenges it faced with corporate sponsorship.

[00:34:23] We wrap up with Richard acknowledging that not all open source projects require significant funding or formal business models, and Alison explains the ‘palmerpenguins’ project she did at the beginning of COVID.

[00:37:07] Find out where you can follow Alison on the web.

[00:22:18] “What is the minimum level of support you need to not feel like you’re drowning?”

Special Guest: Alison Hill.

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Brian Muenzenmeyer

Richard Littauer | Abbigail Cabunoc Mayes

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by co-host Abigail Cabunoc Mayes and guest Brian Muenzenmeyer, a seasoned open source contributor. Brian shares his journey in web development, his experiences with burnout, and insights from his new book, Approachable Open Source. Some key topics discussed include contributing to open source projects, community building, maintaining balance, and funding models for sustainability. This episode emphasizes the role of diverse contributions and the importance of creating accessible avenues for all kinds of contributions in open source. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:40] Brian discusses his book, which offers practical advice for navigating open source. He reflects on his career journey, from early contributions to burnout and recovery. He shares his humble beginnings with jQuery Mobile and the steps that led him to maintain major projects like Pattern Lab.

[00:04:21] Brian opens up about his experience with burnout and how it influenced the writing of his book.

[00:06:42] Brian emphasizes the importance of designing sustainable open source communities.

[00:08:41] Richard, Brian, and Abby explore the concept of “pace layers” in open source, highlighting the dynamic balance between innovation and stability.

[00:14:10] Chapter 7 in Brian’s book is discussed where Brian advocates for corporate contributions to open source and shares tips for individuals looking to get involved.

[00:20:04] Brian provides practical advice for maintainers, including time management, fostering diverse roles, and creating approachable entry points for contributors.

[00:25:01] The conversation delves into the challenges of improving diversity in open source communities and the importance of celebrating successes.

[00:28:39] Find out where you can get Brian’s book, Approachable Open Source. Digital copies are available worldwide, and physical copies shipping to the U.S. and Canada.

[00:05:29] “There isn’t a dichotomy between consumption and contribution.”

[00:13:48] “The work that we’re doing isn’t really for us. If you’re making open source, it’s not really for you, you’re sharing it with the world.”

[00:20:28] “If you look at a mature open source project and try to emulate it at the outset, you’re going to be disappointed and you’re going to feel like you’re always behind.”

[00:23:09] “You don’t need permission to do your job.”

[00:23:41] “You’re already empowered to fix things that you see are broken.”

[00:23:57] “Instead of buying a maintainer a coffee, spend a coffee cup’s amount of time looking at their issue log.”

Special Guest: Brian Muenzenmeyer.

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Alexander Petros

Richard Littauer

Join host Richard Littauer as he dives into the world of open source sustainability with Alexander Petros, core maintainer of htmx and freelance software engineer. Today, they explore the evolution of HTML, the power of lightweight web protocols, and the broader implications of open-source software for the future of the web. Alexander shares his insights on building sustainable digital infrastructure, using simple tools effectively, and rethinking web development paradigms. Hit download now!

[00:01:40] Alexander explains htmx as a lightweight front-end JavaScript library enhancing HTML capabilities.

[00:03:16] There’s a discussion about HTML’s design for behavior and interactivity and a comparison of traditional HTML with modern practices, including JavaScript-heavy frameworks.

[00:05:50] We hear the origins of htmx, how it started as a jQuery extension called intercooler.js, and the evolution during the pandemic to a standalone library.

[00:09:16] Alexander explains building for the long term, why lightweight, adaptable systems matter, and reflects on the durability of early web standards and tools.

[00:12:17] Richard inquires about what Alexander envisions a hundred years from now with htmx.

[00:14:57] Balancing simplicity and scalability is discussed about HTML’s capabilities for large-scale applications and why many developers overcomplicate solutions unnecessarily.

[00:17:40] Alexander critiques over-reliance on tools like Docker and large-scale build systems and advocates for simpler development environments like SQLite.

[00:19:42] Alexander talks about why open source frameworks like React solve organizational problems for tech giants.

[00:25:42] Richard tells us he’s been spending time on the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature as a foundational system for species classification and Alexander speaks about the challenges of contributing to protocols governed by large corporations and why HTML remains a uniquely sustainable and universal platform.

[00:28:22] Richard asks Alexander if he’s thought about the 1000 year approach to the work he’s doing.

[00:32:21] Find out where you can follow Alexander and his blog online.

[00:13:11] “The web is going to be the most effective delivery mechanism for software for the next couple of decades.”

[00:14:12] “If we look at the tools that we have available today, which tools can we use that are most likely to get us to that fifty, hundred year useful piece of software?”

[00:24:06] “Different structural project models produce very different software.”

Special Guest: Alexander Petros.

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Robert Douglass

Richard Littauer | Abby Cabunoc Mayes

In this episode of Sustain, hosts Richard Littauer and Abby Cabunoc Mayes speak with Robert Douglass, Entrepreneur in Residence at Open Strategy Partners, to delve into sustaining open source projects. They explore Robert's extensive history with Drupal, the role of Open Strategy Partners, and the innovative Drupal Certified Partner Program designed to address the maker-taker dilemma in open source. The episode also covers the recently launched RFP templates aimed at promoting open source software and certified partners. Robert shares insights on gamification, the economic aspects of contributing to Drupal, and future initiatives to ensure the continued sustainability of open source projects. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:01:49] Robert shares his background in the Drupal ecosystem and his involvement with Open Strategy Partners, which provides strategic content marketing for B2B tech companies focusing on open source.

[00:02:43] Robert explains Open Strategy Partners’ focus on supporting open source projects and mentions clients like DDEV and TYPO3.

[00:04:06] Richard and Robert discuss what it means to be an entrepreneur in residence, with Robert explaining his role in developing new products for Open Strategy Partners and the books he has written.

[00:05:52] Robert reflects on the early days of Drupal and the challenges in making open source sustainable. He notes how the community was initially driven by passion, with few paid opportunities.

[00:08:05] Robert introduces the Drupal Certified Partner Program, a system for supporting Drupal sustainability by encouraging companies to contribute both time and money.

[00:10:03] The conversation covers how Drupal’s contribution system gamifies the support companies provide to the ecosystem. Companies can earn contribution credits, which are visible on Drupal.org and benefit their reputation.

[00:15:41] Abby asks about the potential downsides of gamification, especially regarding diversity. Robert explains how placing the system at the company level may mitigate some negative impacts.

[00:18:17] Richard inquires about the financial structure of the Drupal Certified Partner Program. Robert clarifies that the funds collected support the Drupal Association’s core mission, including maintaining Drupal.org and organizing events.

[00:21:33] Robert discusses the development of RFP (Request for Proposal) templates to encourage companies to consider certified open source providers, explaining how this initiative promotes sustainability in the ecosystem.

[00:25:56] Robert describes how the RFP templates allow purpose-driven organizations to incorporate open source values in their procurement process, aligning with their missions.

[00:27:00] Robert invites listeners to explore and utilize the RFP templates, which are available under a Creative Commons Zero license, encouraging others to adapt and improve them.

[00:29:47] Find out where you can follow Robert and his work online.

[00:08:57] “Open Source is like a free puppy.”

Special Guest: Robert Douglass.

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Giulio Carvalho

Richard Littauer

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Giulio Carvalho, a civic tech practitioner and program manager at Open Knowledge Brasil, about the importance of open data and civic engagement in Brazil. They discuss the role of civic tech projects in promoting transparency, such as Querido Diário (Dear Diary), an open-source project aimed at centralizing municipal data for better access by citizens, journalists, and activists. Giulio shares insights on the challenges and successes of maintaining open-source projects within a developing country, particularly in the face of competition from large tech corporations. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:36] Giulio explains the Civic Innovation Ambassador Network, and the network’s impact on political transparency pledges made by politicians for open data and transparency is highlighted.

[00:04:16] There’s a discussion about how the pledge focuses on open data and government transparency, relating it to broader movements of open knowledge, and Giulio mentions the Law of Information Access established in Brazil, emphasizing the legal obligations for government transparency.

[00:06:49] Richard compares the efforts to the U.S. Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), prompting a discussion on open data and transparency initiatives in Brazil. Giulio discusses specific projects in Brazil that allow citizens to request information anonymously.

[00:10:10] Giulio introduces the Querido Diário project, designed to make official acts published in municipal gazettes accessible to the public.

[00:15:22] The funding, development, and challenges of sustaining the Querido Diário projects are discussed, noting the support from various grants and partnerships.

[00:21:17] The conversation shifts to the broader impact and goals of Open Knowledge Brazil in promoting open data and supporting civic tech initiatives.

[00:23:34] Challenges in building a sustainable project with widespread municipal interest are discussed, along with strategies for managing community contributions and maintaining active development.

[00:30:01] Richard and Giulio reflect on building grassroots tech movements in the global south and the challenges posed by proprietary technologies from more developed regions.

[00:35:12] Find out where you can find Giulio’s work and where you can get involved with Open Knowledge Brasil.

[00:30:46] “If we build something by us for us, we can actually build great stuff.”

Special Guest: Giulio Carvalho.

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Devin Stein

Richard Littauer

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Devin Stein, CEO and Founder of Dosu. Today, they discuss the challenges of sustaining open source software, the role of AI and LLMs (Large Language Model) in automating support and maintenance, and the ethical considerations surrounding AI usage. Devin explains Dosu's approach to creating a living knowledge base to assist engineering teams and open source maintainers. Also, the conversation dives into how Dosu interacts with users, maintains quality control, and addresses the environmental impact of AI. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:01:43] Devin discusses Dosu’s purpose which helps engineering teams’ software by structuring engineering knowledge into a knowledge base, and the tool supports open source by addressing common questions, triaging issues, and identifying project ownership.

[00:02:46] We hear about how Dosu uses LLMs to create a “living knowledge base” that supports open source workflows, such as issue resolution and knowledge sharing.

[00:04:48] Devin explains that Dosu is focused on automating support tasks, not generating code directly, and he fills us in the user base and funding.

[00:06:17] Devin tells us that revenue comes from platform teams and open core companies using Dosu internally and through a per-seat pricing model.

[00:08:03] We learn how Dosu aims to reduce maintainer burnout by handling repetitive inquires, allowing maintainers to focus on unique issues.

[00:10:38] There’s a discussion on users’ positive reception to fast responses via Dosu and how Dosu aims to assist, not replace maintainers, providing first-pass answers or guidance.

[00:12:00] Richard expresses a “net positive” sentiment but admits to initial scepticism about GitHub Actions and automation in open source. Devin shares a similar story of entering open source for community interaction, initially contributing through GitHub, and receiving positive feedback.

[00:14:49] Richard inquires about managing customer expectations for accuracy and Devin acknowledges the challenge and explains that Dosu is designed to adapt by learning from past issues and solutions, and how human-in-the-loop workflows help maintainers refine Dosu’s responses.

[00:18:19] A question on ethical and legal use of LLMs is brought up, as Devin hopes for more transparency and alignment on LLM licensing and legal frameworks in the future.

[00:21:14] Devin explains that Dosu’s knowledge base will soon be accessible, providing transparency for users and maintainers about its data sources.

[00:24:49] Richard questions about how AI companies are ensuring their models don’t reinforce these biases and asks about measures in place to improve AI responses. Devin emphasizes their approach to LLMs, which focuses on treating the AI as a tool rather than imitating human behavior.

[00:26:55] The topic of addressing human elements and consistency is brought up and Devin explains that Dosu’s design keeps responses consistent and supportive, and maintainers and users can provide feedback and adjust responses to align with community needs.

[00:31:23] Devin talks about Dosu’s strategy focusing on helping become contributors without taking over human roles in open source, and maintainers still have the primary role in guiding substantial project changes or complex contributions.

[00:33:34] Devin acknowledges the environmental concerns around AI usage and hopes for more sustainable practices and optimizations in the future.

[00:34:30] Find out where you can follow Devin and Dosu online.

Special Guest: Devin Stein.

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Kailash Nadh

Richard Littauer

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer sits down with Kailash Nath, CTO of Zerodha, to delve into the dynamics of funding and sustaining open-source projects. They explore the establishment of Zerodha's FLOSS/Fund, which allocates a million dollars annually to support pivotal open source projects and discuss the development of the funding.json format to streamline grant applications. The conversation also covers the challenges of creating such funds, including regulatory hurdles, and aims to make financial assistance globally accessible. From detailing efforts to revive India's open-source communities through the FOSS United Foundation to highlighting the obstacles and innovative models in funding open-source software, the episode provides a comprehensive look at both global and Indian perspectives. Hit download now!

[00:01:14] Richard brings up the FLOSS/Fund, a $1 million annual commitment to open source projects. Kailash confirms that the fund is still active and explains how it recently became more structured and a small team has been formed to manage the logistics of the fund.

[00:02:48] The FLOSS/Fund has been created to publicly commit to supporting open source in a structured way. Kailash points out that while other companies give donations to open source, there are few structured initiatives from large organizations.

[00:04:33] Kailash expresses frustration that few billion-dollar companies have set up similar initiatives to support open source projects.

[00:06:24] Kailash explains that the FLOSS/Fund is open to the global open source community and target systemically important projects like libraries and widely used software tools.

[00:08:14] Richard inquires about the application process and Kailash explains instead of traditional grant forms, projects must create and publish a “funding.json” file.

[00:10:35] Kailash shares that the structured application method is designed to avoid the usual awkwardness of fundraising conversations and streamline the process.

[00:13:31] The two discuss the difficulty maintainers face when articulating the importance of their projects, particularly for maintainers who may not have strong written communication skills, Kailash emphasizes that the funding.json method does not replace narrative descriptions but simplifies signaling.

[00:16:17] The conversation switches to global scope and prioritization as Kailash tells us Zerodha’s open source contributions are not limited to projects they directly use, the fund is open to all global projects, and Zerodha hopes to support projects that are crucial for open source infrastructure.

[00:17:09] Kailash discusses the complexity of sending money internationally from India.

[00:18:59] We learn the goal is not to make funding.json go viral through financial incentives, but to organically grow adoption if the tool proves valuable.

[00:20:49] Richard and Kailash explore the broader challenges of sustaining open source projects beyond funding, such as building healthy communities and incentivizing the proper use and citation of open source infrastructure.

[00:25:32] Kailash discusses the Indian open source ecosystem.

[00:30:29] Kailash explains how Zerodha’s initiatives aim to push the Indian industry to give back more to the open source community. He hopes that their efforts will inspire other companies to set up similar initiatives.

[00:32:12] Find out where you can donate to Floss fund and follow Kailash online.

Special Guest: Kailash Nadh.

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Thomas Karagianes | Jonathan Romano

Richard Littauer

In this episode, host Richard Littauer discusses the journey and impact of Eterna with developers Jonathan Romano and Thomas Karagianes. The conversation revolves around Eterna's role in RNA research through user-contributed puzzle solutions, emphasizing community engagement and educational outreach. Topics include the integration of hybrid intelligence, where human intuition complements AI in scientific discovery, and the significance of explainable AI in motivating player participation. The episode also touches on the ethical considerations in collaborating with for-profit entities, the development of accessible COVID vaccines, and low-cost tuberculosis diagnostics. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:01:24] Jonathan describes Eterna, a platform where players solve puzzles to contribute to RNA research.

[00:02:12] Thomas explains that Eterna focuses on RNA complexity and its importance in modern science, like mRNA vaccines and how Eterna engages players in folding RNA sequences and testing them in labs.

[00:04:36] Richard asks if the project is open source and Jonathan says its partially open source and explains the technical limitations that prevent full openness.

[00:05:26] We learn about Eterna’s community with around 100,000 total players, and a core group of about 30-40 who regularly engage in scientific challenges.

[00:07:31] Thomas discusses ongoing efforts to make the game more accessible and increase community engagement through educational outreach and simplifying the tutorial system, and Eterna is used in classrooms as a teaching tool.

[00:09:47] Jonathan explains how some Eterna players become code contributors, staff members, and even lead authors on academic papers.

[00:13:32] We hear about the funding of the community.

[00:15:56] Thomas discusses how Eterna integrates AI to assist players but stresses the importance of human intuition in tackling unique challenges and Jonathan explains how Eterna uses hybrid intelligence, combining AI and human input for better research outcomes. He highlights how Eterna’s community has contributed to important research, including COVID-19 vaccine development and tuberculosis diagnostics.

[00:22:29] Thomas shares that Eterna attracts players who enjoy breaking the model or exploring boundaries, making the game engaging and motivating for them.

[00:27:48] Jonathan and Thomas discuss the ethical considerations of partnerships, especially with for-profit companies, and the need to engage the community in decision-making processes.

[00:31:41] Jonathan shares how you can contribute to Eterna and how to join the developer community on GitHub.

[00:10:10] “Minimally, whenever there is a scientific publication that comes out of Eterna from players contributions, there is a consortium author on the paper. That will include everyone who has submitted a solution.”

[00:14:21] “There’s definitely this pattern - and you can even see it in the code- where open source code passes from grad student to grad student.”

[00:19:14] “Hybrid intelligence is an underused buzzword.”

Special Guests: Jonathan Romano and Thomas Karagianes.

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Caleb Connolly | Pablo Correa Gómez

Richard Littauer

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by guests Pablo Correa Gómez and Caleb Connolly to explore the development and sustainability of postmarketOS, an open-source Linux distribution designed to extend the life of mobile devices. The team dives into the project's mission, governance, and the community-driven nature of its work. They discuss the challenges related to funding, primarily through grants and Open Collective donations, and the significance of upstreaming Linux kernel support to collaborate with other communities like Alpine Linux. The conversation also highlights the growth of the postmarketOS community, encouraging contributions from both technical and non-technical supporters, and the importance of comprehensive documentation. Additionally, issues of privacy, telemetry, and user support are examined, alongside the steps towards making postmarketOS more professional and economically sustainable. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:30] Pablo explains postmarketOS and its mission to empower people to have full control over their devices and promote sustainability.

[00:02:12] Caleb talks about the governance of postmarketOS that started with a few contributors working on a package repository on top of Alpine Linux and overtime more maintainers were added.

[00:03:59] There’s a discussion on the structure of the team, how the community around hardware components forms sub-communities bases on common SOCs, and the focus on improving tooling and the ecosystem rather than building a product for end users.

[00:06:29] Richard discusses the massive, refurbished phone market and asks about how postmarketOS fits into this ecosystem. Caleb shares their experience working on the OnePlus 6 phone and explains the technical process of making the device work on upstream Linux and the challenges of hardware enablement.

[00:10:05] Pablo explains that the project is largely funded by volunteer work and Caleb describes the challenges in deciding which devices to prioritize for hardware enablement and how all hardware work so far has been done by volunteers.

[00:14:09] On the importance of upstreaming, Pablo explains that postmarketOS works hard to contribute back to the Linux ecosystem rather that maintaining device-specific patches and postmarketOS is downstream to Alpine Linux but contributes much of its work upstream to maintain sustainability.

[00:20:09] Richard asks about how the project builds shared context and onboards new developers and Pablo and Caleb explain how the project relies on its wiki page to provide extensive documentation and how the pmbootstrap tool makes it easier for new contributors to get started with porting new devices to postmarketOS.

[00:25:01] Richard asks about telemetry and how the team tracks their impact.

[00:25:39] Pablo talks about how they receive community feedback through events like FOSDEM and have seen an increase in donations, social media engagement, and community members.

[00:28:39] Caleb reflects on the pros and cons of collecting telemetry, which could help guide development but may also create unwanted challenges by focusing too heavily on specific devices.

[00:31:30] What are Pablo and Caleb most excited about for the next year? Pablo is excited about professionalizing the project, starting to pay contributors, and scaling the project’s growth sustainably, and Caleb jokes about looking forward to the “pre-market OS.”

[00:12:00] “We are trying to grow organically, bit by bit, and be able to pay people to do core things where volunteer work doesn’t reach.”

[00:15:06] “In the environment we live in, where you have X amount of code per update, it is totally unsustainable.”

[00:16:18] “As a distro, we predominately put together the pieces that other people give us.”

[00:19:13] “Downstream patches allow to experiment, but long term are a burden. That’s the same for every project.”

[00:19:22] “The sustainability goes beyond reducing waste and also goes into the social ecosystem and how we maintain projects.”

[00:30:33] “We know we are not ready for end users, but we need to build the structure and economic support.”

Special Guests: Caleb Connolly and Pablo Correa Gomez.

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