Courtney Miller

Richard Littauer

In this episode of Sustain, Richard welcomes back Courtney Miller to unpack her PhD research on one of open source’s most overlooked problems: what happens when widely used software is abandoned. Courtney explains why abandonment is not always simple, or even always bad, but can create real risks for the developers and projects that depend on it. From npm package research and downstream impact to Abandabot, AI-assisted tooling, maintainer burnout, and responsible sunsetting, this conversation explores how the open source ecosystem can better understand, detect, and respond when the software we rely on stops being maintained. Press download now!

[00:01:28] Courtney explains the focus of her dissertation.

[00:02:34] Courtney defines abandonment.

[00:03:44] Her ecosystem-wide analysis focused on the npm JavaScript ecosystem, looking specifically at widely used packages.

[00:05:23] The first part of the dissertation involved interviews with maintainers who rely on abandoned packages and often lack tools or clear processes for responding.

[00:06:31] Courtney describes two types of abandonment: Explicit Notice Abandonment and Activity Based Abandonment.

[00:09:27] Courtney explains the third and final chapter called, Designing Abandabot.

[00:11:10] Richard raises the point that some software can be “done” and still function fine. Courtney agrees, noting that not all abandonment matters and beyond alerts remediation matters.

[00:13:22] The conversation expands into under-resourced and under-maintained projects, which can also become supply chain risks before they are fully abandoned.

[00:14:53] Richard brings up the “Whale Fall” idea and Courtney agrees and points to responsible sunsetting as an important research area.

[00:17:39] We learn about Courtney’s experience bringing AI into the dissertation, especially for building Abandabot’s prediction system.

[00:20:54] Richard asks whether AI is already making abandonment more common.

[00:24:52] Courtney talks about staying grounded in real practitioner problems as the open source and AI landscape changes quickly.

[00:26:30] Final Takeaways: Courtney argues that abandonment needs to be addressed now, especially through software composition analysis tools that can help developers understand and respond to real dependency risk.

[00:01:35] “The title of my dissertation is: “Supporting the Sustainable Use of Open Source Software.”

[00:07:10] “There is no right answer how to define abandonment.”

[00:07:26] “Explicit Notice Abandonment”- where the maintainers of a package publicly express their intent to no longer do so.”

[00:07:42] “The other type of abandonment was called “Activity Based Abandonment” -commonly used as a way of identifying abandonment in open source sustainability literature.”

[00:08:26] “Out of the widely used packages, around 15% had abandonment issues.”

[00:11:38] “Not all abandonment matters. If left pad is abandoned, who cares?”

[00:21:35] “Maybe projects never have to die. You can create a fork and maintain it on your own.”

CURIOSS

Special Guest: Courtney Miller.

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Jeff Young | Daniel Shown

Richard Littauer | Eriol Fox

In this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer and Eriol Fox talk with Jeff Young from Georgia Tech and Daniel Shown from Saint Louis University (SLU) about how academic OSPOs are bringing students into open source in meaningful, sustainable ways. They discuss experiential learning, research software engineering, near-peer mentorship, student motivation, maintainer burnout, and how universities can help students build real-world skills while strengthening open source communities. Press download now!

[00:01:46] Jeff describes Georgia Tech’s OSPO focus.

[00:03:49] Daniel explains SLU’s experiential learning model.

[00:05:29] Daniel and Jeff share how many students they’re working with in their programs.

[00:06:13] Jeff talks about how students engage with open source and Daniel describes meeting students and the wide range of student experience levels.

[00:09:33] They discuss what the students bring to the sustainability of open source software and the value of seeing open source as a community effort.

[00:13:05] Richard asks how academic programs connect students with maintainers when many open source maintainers are already overwhelmed. Daniel explains how SLU uses internal tech leads as near-peer mentors and describes training student maintainers.

[00:15:26] Daniel describes training student maintainers.

[00:16:45] Jeff discusses Georgia Tech’s growing mentor model.

[00:18:55] Eriol asks the guests what their “dream programs” would be if they had more resources.

[00:23:44] Richard asks how to excite universities, funders, administrators, teachers, students, and other stakeholders about open source education. They discuss open source, AI, student excitement, grounded storytelling, and real impact.

[00:28:24] Find out where you can learn more about Georgia Tech and SLU’s OSPOs programs online.

[00:05:24] “I call the students developers. They’re not students, they’re actual developers.”

[00:10:50] “Those students may not be the greatest developers, but they still have a great perspective and insight that helps grow and diversify some of these open source projects.”

[00:13:20] “Our project is fun in that I don’t have to put pressure on upstream projects to find maintainers to support the contributions from students.”

[00:13:57] “It helps create a sense of empathy for maintainers of bigger projects that are out there.”

[00:26:39] “I had a student tell me at the end of last semester: 'More grounded, fewer aspirations.'"

[00:27:18] “You wouldn’t have stoplights without OSS.”

CURIOSS

Special Guests: Daniel Shown and Jeff Young.

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Alan Rubin

Richard Littauer

On this episode of Sustain, Richard Littauer sits down with computational biologist Alan Rubin to explore how open source software supports scientific research, clinical genetics, and cancer-related data infrastructure. Their conversation centers on MaveDB, a project that began as a way to organize hard-to-find variant data from research papers and has since evolved into a valuable resource for both scientists and clinicians. Along the way, they discuss infrastructure funding, research software sustainability, and why open source communities and academic researchers have a lot to learn from each other. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:24] Alan explains his role leading a research group focused on genomics, cancer medicine, and improving patient care through genetics.

[00:02:46] We learn more about what MaveDB does.

[00:06:52] Alan details why a database was needed.

[00:08:26] Alan shares how the project grew out of collaboration, PyCon AU inspiration, Django, and Python tooling that let a small team build a practical research database.

[00:11:54] There’s a discussion on the infrastructure funding problem and Alan explains a major theme is how hard it is to fund scientific infrastructure, since most grants favor new discoveries rather than maintaining shared tools and databases.

[00:17:55] The project took a major turn when clinical geneticists began using the data to interpret patient variants, pushing the team to rethink the interface and user needs.

[00:21:13] Alan describes the new clinical-facing interface, Mave for Medicine (MaveMD), designed to help doctors evaluate specific variants for diagnosis and treatment decisions.

[00:22:02] Alan talks about managing the project through a distributed team, shared responsibilities, and a role that now centers more on direction, priorities, and community than day-to-day coding.

[00:23:36] They discuss why research software rarely attracts hobbyist contributors, even when the mission is compelling, and how scientific projects often function more like small product teams.

[00:27:44] Alan makes the case that scientists often learn more about improving their software craft at events like PyCon than at discipline-specific conferences.

[00:30:38] Alan highlights how academic software depends heavily on mature, well-documented open source tools and encourages more connection between technical communities and scientific work.

[00:34:15] Find out where you can learn more about MaveDB and Alan’s work.

[00:10:04] “We quite literally followed the Django Girls tutorial, but instead of a building a blog, we built a database for research scientists.”

[00:12:35] “Infrastructure is something everybody wants to have it exist and nobody wants to pay for.”

[00:26:08] “I have never been successful in engaging the broader open source community, despite having tried many times to contribute to this or any other scientific project.”

[00:31:01] “I think people who work in OSS should be excited about the kind of stuff that their work is enabling, even if they don’t really hear about it.”

CURIOSS

Special Guest: Alan Rubin.

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Jack Skinner

Richard Littauer

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer talks with Jack Skinner, PyCon AU organizer and freelance consultant/fractional CTO, to explore why regional conferences matter so much to the long-term health of open source communities. Their conversation looks at how events like PyCon AU do far more than host talks, they create local connections, nurture future leaders, support first-time speakers, and help sustain the broader Python ecosystem in ways that global conferences alone cannot. Drawing on Jack’s experience as a conference organizer and community builder, the episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at the challenges of running volunteer-led events, from sponsorships and logistics to burnout, accessibility, and building a stronger pipeline of future organizers. Press download now to hear more!

[00:01:49] Jack shares his background and how he got involved in Python and event organizing.

[00:02:48] We hear about Jack’s first PyCon AU experience.

[00:04:14] Jack describes PyCon AU, who it serves, and how it’s changed after COVID.

[00:07:01] Why do regional conferences exist alongside PyCon US?

[00:09:24] Jack talks about what makes Australia and New Zealand different as conference communities.

[00:10:55] PyCon AU’s attendance goals are discussed as Jack mentions his big goal is to bring attendance back to roughly 500-600 people, restoring pre-pandemic strength.

[00:12:04] The discussion turns to conference structure: tracks, workshops, and sponsor interest, with Jack emphasizing sponsorship is not just about money.

[00:14:54] Richard asks how organizers know whether conferences help people learn, connect, or build community. Jack explains how they’re measuring community impact beyond “good vibes” and rebuilding local Python communities.

[00:17:34] Jack explains PyCon AU is trying to build a future organizer pipeline by letting people observe how conference planning works and introduces his proposed program/project, “shadow team.”

[00:19:09] Another project Jack is working on is documenting the behind-the-scenes work of organizing the conference through long-form writing.

[00:20:38] Jack admits he feels imposter syndrome because he’s not paid to write Python, his contribution is centered on the sociotechnical side.

[00:23:20] PyCon AU’s independence from government and institutions is discussed, and how the conference community is globally aware, even if locally focused.

[00:27:05] Call for proposals details, deadline is March 29, and the in-person focus for this year’s event are mentioned. Richard discusses the return of the academic track and Jack details more info on poster sessions and workshop submissions.

[00:32:08] Volunteering and buying tickets are explained and why you should buy tickets early if you can.

[00:32:20] “Volunteering is an awesome way to be involved in PyCon.”

CURIOSS

Special Guest: Jack Skinner.

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Miranda Heath

Richard Littauer

In this episode of Sustain, host Richard Littauer is joined by PhD student Miranda Heath to discuss her research on altruism and maintainer burnout in open source, and specifically her report on burn out in open source maintainers. Miranda shares insights from her study on what motivates people to act altruistically and how these behaviors manifest in open source communities. She delves into the common issues maintainers face, such as changing motivations and the systemic challenges that contribute to burnout. Drawing on examples from her research, including kidney donors and open source maintainers, Miranda explores how community support, mentorship, and better funding can help mitigate burnout. The conversation also touches on the unique challenges neurodiverse maintainers face and the importance of creating supportive environments for them. Press download now to hear more!

[00:00:44] Richard introduces Miranda Heath, whom he met at FOSDEM, and she’s built a major report on maintainer burnout.

[00:02:04] Miranda studies what motivates people to benefit others, how “altruism” is often framed too narrowly, and she points out neglected forms.

[00:03:40] Richard asks about a name for the type of altruism, and they land on “collective altruism” as a useful label for shared/commons based giving.

[00:04:25] Miranda explains her work on anonymous kidney donors and the key insight from the kidney donors is that altruism can be mundane.

[00:06:45] Looking at the motivations of open source developers, Miranda sees overlap between altruistic impulses and open source and contrasts this with academia’s paywall-driven publication system.

[00:08:36] They discuss how motivation changes which leads to burnout risk, and Richard brings up Miranda’s maintainer burnout report and what it was based on.

[00:10:13] Miranda describes how this report started and what she wanted to change.

[00:13:21] What are some systematic solutions for burnout? Miranda argues “money vs people” is a false dichotomy: respecting maintainers includes making it possible to live. Burnout is worsened by “double shift” dynamics and “Labor of love is still labor.”

[00:16:18] Richard notes many maintainers are paid through employers, Miranda talks about paid maintainer roles still carry burnout risk, and some research done by Robert Karasek in the late 70’s.

[00:20:14] Miranda draws from social psychology: communities run on group norms (often unspoken), and emphasizes we need to make beneficiaries feel part of the in-group, so they adopt norms.

[00:22:36] Richard highlights the Open Source Pledge and policy approaches like the Cyber Resilience Act, and Miranda notes policy could reduce autonomy and increase burnout if rigid.

[00:26:22] What happens after burnout? Miranda believes we should prevent unwanted exits, normalize “sunsetting” conversations, and have a plan to wind down a project.

[00:31:17] There’s a discussion on how burnout shouldn’t equal personal failure, and an example is brought up with the Tailwind CSS tensions.

[00:35:19] Miranda stresses the importance of mentorship for community roles to be filled, Richard cites Abby Cabunoc’s “3 C’s” for mentor-worthy contributors, and Miranda mentions the concept of “Mentorship Triangle.”

[00:38:03] Find out where you can follow Miranda and her work online.

[00:38:27] We wrap with Miranda sharing there’s an important gap with neurodivergence and autistic burnout and how more research needs to be done.

[00:15:13] “Maintenance work is work, but a labor of love is labor.”

Special Guest: Miranda Heath.

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Trent Van Epps

Eriol Fox | Victory Brown

In this episode of Sustain, host Eriol Fox and co-host Victory Brown are at the Devconnect Conference in Buenos Aires with Trent Van Epps, an organizer of Protocol Guild and member of the Ethereum Foundation. They discuss the vital role of Protocol Guild in funding core protocol developers, addressing systemic issues of under-compensation in open-source projects. Trent also explores the similarities and differences between funding in the open-source community and the Ethereum ecosystem, emphasizing the importance of collective representation and the unique financial structures of blockchain technology. The conversation highlights the necessity of diversity and inclusion within the Ethereum community and shares insights on the impact of adverse regulatory pressures and funding challenges. Press download now!

[00:00:29] Trent explains Protocol Guild and he connects Guild work to his EF role coordinating network upgrades and ensuring stable funding and continuity.

[00:02:35] Trent tells us why core contributors are under compensated and notes there’s a “hot ball of money” problem.

[00:05:21] Eriol and Trent discuss discomfort around money in open source. the myth of pure altruism, and the reality that “you can’t eat your code.”

[00:06:28] What can open source learn from Ethereum? Trent points to classic charitable giving practices and highlights Ethereum’s difference and stresses that funding can be used as a political lever.

[00:11:07] Trent contrasts different contributor needs and points out diversity/heterogeneity as essential to Ethereum’s robustness and security.

[00:15:40] Trent describes tight social bonds in Ethereum formed by “youth of the ecosystem” and shared regulatory pressures, which push the community to cooperate defensively, and he talks about how Protocol Guild operates like a loose union/syndicate.

[00:20:03] He outlines their funding vehicle called the 1% Pledge.

[00:22:07] Trent acknowledges high-profile scams and speculative excess get media attention, overshadowing serious work, like the technological waves with railroads. He points to Argentina, Kenya, and other places with weak institutions.

[00:24:59] Eriol closes the discussion with a call to widen your bubble.

[00:26:08] Trent’s project spotlight is ZKP2P and a great book by Benjamin Birkinbine. Also, he shares where you can find him on the internet.

Special Guest: Trent Van Epps.

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Nuno Loureiro

Eriol Fox | Victory Brown

In this episode of Sustain, host Eriol Fox and co-host Victory Brown are live with Nuno Loureiro, Lead Designer at the Ethereum Foundation, at Devconnect Conference in Buenos Aires. Nuno shares his journey in digital design and discusses his role in focusing on ethereum.org. He highlights the challenges of designing for open source platforms, including the difficulty of onboarding and collaborating with designers. He also touches on UX challenges in the context of blockchain technology, emphasizing the importance of trust and design for mass adoption of open source tools. The discussion further explores how the Ethereum Foundation engages with the community for design feedback and the decentralized nature of project narratives. The episode concludes with Nuno spotlighting Penpot, a tool he believes is changing the landscape design. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:00:34] Nuno shares his background in digital and product design and joining Ethereum Foundation to focus on Ethereum.org as a learning portal.

[00:02:13] He shares the biggest design challenges at the Ethereum Foundation starting out with a major challenge which was opening a design system to open source collaboration.

[00:04:08] Eriol asks how good design and usability relate to sustainable open source. Nuno argues UX is the main blocker for mass adoption of open source tools and uses tools like GIMP as an example.

[00:05:00] Victory asks how Nuno brings more designers into the ecosystem and elevates design conversations. He admits he’s “not doing enough” and notes how hard it is to balance paid work with open source contributions and critiques designers, including himself, as poor collaborators compared with developers.

[00:06:27] Eriol reflects on how both coders and designers get deeply attached to their work, and notes that vulnerability and openness to critique are hard but necessary for sustainability of open source to grow.

[00:07:54] Eriol brings up Vitalik’s talk, Founder of Ethereum, at Funding the Commons, where he emphasized reliability as critical to UX and poses a question to Nuno. He explains what Ethereum Foundation’s current “three mantras” are.

[00:11:49] A question is brought up about how design decisions for new features are made inside Ethereum and what others can learn. Nuno clarifies the Ethereum Foundation does not own the protocol or roadmap and is a community based approach.

[00:13:26] Victory asks how Ethereum gathers UX feedback from users. Nuno says they rely heavily on third party projects that do their own UX research.

[00:14:43] Nuno spotlights Penpot, an open source design tool he uses and believes is changing the design landscape.

Special Guest: Nuno Loureiro.

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Lucas Fada

Eriol Fox | Victory Brown

In this episode of Sustain, host Eriol Fox and co-host Victory Brown speak with Lucas Fada, the head of partnerships at Drips Network. Lucas shares insights from his over a decade of experience in early-stage startups, focusing on making open source software projects financially sustainable through strategic partnerships. They discuss the methodologies Lucas employs to secure funding for open source projects, the types of projects that attract funders, and how Drips Network aims to create a 'super app' for funding open source builders. Lucas also provides valuable advice for open source projects on becoming more visible to funders and highlights the essential role of ecosystems like Web3 in supporting open source. Additionally, he emphasizes the importance of moving beyond traditional philanthropy and crisis management in open source funding. Press download to hear more!

[00:00:23] Eriol introduces Lucas, and he explains what doing partnerships for Drips Network entails.

[00:01:50] Before approaching funders, Lucas shares that Drips looks for people or teams that have already funded OSS or spoken publicly about it.

[00:02:56] Victory wonders what kind of projects funders are interested in. Lucas explains funders tend to focus on high-visibility libraries rather than deep dependencies and goes into funder motivations to “give back” vs ecosystem needs.

[00:05:17] How can projects become more fundable? Lucas dives into this in two parts and he announces they are building a ‘super app’ for funding open source builders.

[00:07:49] Lucas elaborates on what package registries could do. One example he mentions is that Drips launched a “Fund Me” button for GitHub repos, like “Buy Me a Coffee” but crypto-based and fee free.

[00:09:19] Eriol notes that many projects associate marketing with proprietary, corporate culture, but marketing is really just communication. Lucas suggests the community could develop a shared marketing team that helps projects share their story.

[00:10:53] What can funders do proactively to support open source and critical digital infrastructure? Lucas’ top advice is: Talk to your own developers.

[00:13:07] Why Web3? It’s one of the most OSS-driven spaces; blockchains are typically open source and modular. Lucas wants OSS funding to move out of philanthropy/emergency rescue mode into something more strategic and ongoing.

[00:15:25] Lucas shares how they are making OSS maintenance a viable elaborating on how Drips is building funding pathways for different stages of an OSS career: Dependency funding, Direct grants, Retroactive grants, and Drips Wave.

[00:17:58] Drips is working with UNICEF to create funding mechanisms for several high use Digital Public Goods and how governments in the global south could encourage youth to join open source bounties. Eriol acknowledges skepticism about bounties and highlights their benefits.

[00:19:54] Find out where you can follow Lucas on the internet and he shares his project spotlight, Ethers.js and its maintainer, Richard “ricmoo” Moore.

Special Guest: Lucas Fada.

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Devansh Mehta

Eriol Fox | Victory Brown

In this episode of Sustain, host Eriol Fox and co-host Victory Brown are at Devconnect Conference in Buenos Aires with Devansh Mehta from the Ethereum Foundation, to unpack one of the hardest problems in open source: how to fund the public good infrastructure that everything else depends on fairly, ethically, and at scale. They dig into quadratic funding, “credit assignment,” dependency graphs, Goodhart’s Law, and how AI can help, without taking over. Also, why open networks still struggle to compete with corporations and what new funding mechanisms like Deep Funding are trying to change. Hit download now to hear more!

[00:00:22] Eriol introduces Devansh, and he tells us about the work he does at Ethereum Foundation.

[00:01:32] He explains two core problems: Funding loop and Credit assignment.

[00:03:57] He identifies two failure modes: Popularity contests and lobbying & favoritism and shares why he found quadratic funding very liberating.

[00:05:48] Devansh uses Bitcoin as a simple model: miners get all the credit for a block and the new BTC is the funding loop.

[00:06:51] He defines public goods as value created minus value captured and argues the real challenge is linking revenue centers to cost centers.

[00:09:19] Devansh proposes a 3-step model for connecting revenue and OSS dependencies: Build an accurate dependency graph, weight the edges, capturing “how much value I get from you, and send money into one address and let it flow through the graph by weights.

[00:11:28] Goodhart’s law is explained, and Devansh warns metrics like stars/downloads break once tied directly to money and he gives some solutions to use non-deterministic AI and human judgement.

[00:16:04] Victory wonders how we can make this more ethical. Devansh notes that experts have the biggest conflict of interest, and he introduces cryptographic ideas: Confusion and Diffusion.

[00:18:27] Devansh analogizes funding mechanisms are like recommendation algorithms and critiques the current RFP/grant system common in non-Web3 open source.

[00:21:01] Find out where you can follow Devansh on the internet and he shares the Ethereum Foundation believes in the “policy of subtraction” and highlights some key partners in deep funding: Seer, Pond, and Drips.

Special Guest: Devansh Mehta.

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Nixo Rokish

Eriol Fox | Victory Brown

In this live episode of Sustain from Devconnect in Buenos Aires, host Eriol Fox and

[00:00:38] Nixo explains Ethereum as a rare example of truly decentralized

[00:02:25] Why does this governance model matter for sustainability? Nixo says

[00:04:09] Eriol asks if anyone resists this decentralized, community-led

[00:05:51] Eriol talks about money and influence entering open source projects

[00:08:00] Nixo walks through the Ethereum Improvement Proposal (EIP) process.

[00:11:38] Victory asks how they manage consensus with so many people and

[00:13:36] Eriol reacts to how impressive it is that devs can reach consensus via

[00:16:13] Nixo shares where you can find her on the internet and she spotlights a

Special Guest: Nixo Rokish.

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