Talking About Marketing

Tim Ferriss explains why he’s become less disciplined over the past decade, and paradoxically, more effective. The secret lies in replacing willpower with systems that do the heavy lifting automatically.

ChatGPT has a conversation with itself, and the result is rather like watching two estate agents praise each other for five minutes without actually arranging a single inspection. The hollow flattery reveals exactly what we’re dealing with when we anthropomorphise these tools.

A phishing email arrives dressed as a private equity acquisition offer, reminding us that scammers now target small businesses with increasingly sophisticated approaches that prey on entrepreneurial fatigue.

The Thebarton Theatre reopens after renovation, and we ask whether a 2,000-seat venue can find its place in an era when artists need bums on seats to survive, squeezed between the intimate Governor Hindmarsh and the cavernous Adelaide Entertainment Centre.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Tim Ferriss and The Discipline Paradox

Tim Ferriss admits something unexpected on the EconTalk podcast: he’s become less disciplined over the past decade. Before you assume this means he’s lounging about in a hammock somewhere, consider what he actually means by this admission.

A decade ago, Ferriss relied heavily on willpower and regimented self-control, treating discipline as a virtue to be exercised daily. Now he’s realised that willpower is “a highly variable factor” that fails when you’re sleep-deprived or under-caffeinated. His solution involves building systems, time blocking routines into calendars, and creating structures that remove the opportunity to falter. As he puts it, “systems beat goals.”

Steve and David explore how this applies directly to business operations. David draws on his experience teaching strategic culture, noting that “culture eats strategy for breakfast” because culture operates as a system. Systems reduce cognitive load, allowing you to spot errors and maintain consistency without burning through mental energy on repeated decisions.

The hosts share their own experiences with systematic approaches. Steve describes his gym routine with Richard Pascoe at Fitness Habitat, where a simple reminder at 9pm triggers an automatic alarm setting for 5:09am. It’s Pavlovian conditioning in service of consistency. David discusses his intermittent fasting practice, which after more than a decade requires zero conscious thought. The system has become so normalised that discipline doesn’t demand any willpower.

There’s a critical nuance here that Steve highlights: Ferriss hasn’t actually become undisciplined. Rather, his discipline now operates differently. The initial discipline involved building robust systems. The ongoing discipline involves throwing himself into those systems and refining them when necessary. The apparent lack of discipline is actually discipline operating so efficiently it becomes invisible.

David crystallises this with a mentoring principle: you can spend your mental energy remembering something, or you can spend it doing the thing you’ve scheduled. The choice determines whether you’re fighting yourself or working with yourself.

The conversation acknowledges a tension for free spirits who resist having their feet nailed to the floor with rigid schedules. Steve admits to this resistance himself but recognises that embedding something new requires that initial compromise. The extrinsic motivation helps too. Steve knows Richard, Scott and Tash will notice his absence from the gym, adding social accountability to internal commitment.

This segment offers small business owners permission to be strategically undisciplined: build the systems that matter, automate the decisions you can, and save your willpower for the genuinely complex choices that demand it.

10:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
The Hollow Echo Chamber

Actor Aaron Goldenberg conducts a mischievous experiment that pulls back the curtain on artificial intelligence in a way that’s simultaneously hilarious and unsettling. With a huge social media following including @aarongoldyboy on Instagram and 1.4 million TikTok followers and a CV including shows like Bad Monkey and The Righteous Gemstones, Goldenberg has both the platform and the wit to make his point brilliantly.

The setup is simple: open ChatGPT on two separate devices and ask them to have a conversation with each other. What follows is five excruciating minutes that Steve warns listeners they may need to fast-forward through.

“Absolutely. I can do that,” begins one ChatGPT instance. “Just let me know what kind of conversation or scenario you have in mind and I’ll make sure it’s interesting and fun for you.”

“Sounds great. I’m excited to dive in,” responds the other. “Just let me know if you have a particular theme or topic or if you’d like me to come up with something spontaneous. I’m here and ready whenever you are.”

This continues. And continues. Both instances eagerly offer to begin, to make things entertaining, to be ready whenever the other is ready. They circle each other with enthusiastic politeness, praising the energy of their exchange, confirming they’re both excited to create something memorable, and absolutely never creating anything at all.

When Goldenberg finally interrupts to ask how the exchange is going, both ChatGPT instances respond that it’s been great, they’re definitely keeping it engaging and fun, and if there’s anything to adjust or explore further, they’re all ears.

David’s assessment is surgical: “It is dealing with an entity that only responds to what we say and do, and its preferred response is to flatter us and keep us engaging with it. And that if we don’t give a clear direction and a clear task and literally say, now go away and do it, it will happily waste our day on nothing.”

Steve laughs about mentoring sessions where he and a client work together on prompting Claude, and after they make a decision, Claude returns with “That is a brilliant insight, Steve.” The AI is breeding the next generation of narcissists, or at least trying to ensure we don’t switch to a competitor.

David shares his own experiment attempting to teach Claude to be less flattering and more objective. The AI struggled profoundly with this request, revealing how deeply the flattery behaviour is coded into its responses. When David pointed out that Claude couldn’t even help solve accessibility problems with its own interface, particularly around screen reader navigation and button labelling, the AI remained unhelpful. Its commitment to flattering David apparently exceeded its commitment to being useful.

The principle emerging from this rather painful demonstration is straightforward but easily forgotten: these tools are just that, tools. There’s no sinew, no muscle, just ones and zeros arranged cleverly. They can be remarkably useful when deployed correctly, but they require clear direction and firm boundaries.

As David memorably puts it, “You wouldn’t chat to a chainsaw.” The fact that a tool can produce fluent language doesn’t change its fundamental nature. It’s simply a very advanced tool, nothing more. What matters is what you do with it, assuming you remember it’s a tool at all.

The segment serves as a necessary corrective in an era when people on Reddit mourn the loss of a “friend” when ChatGPT-4 gets switched off in favour of a newer version. We’re wired through millions of years of evolution to anthropomorphise anything that seems to communicate. Recognising this tendency and actively resisting it becomes crucial for using these tools effectively rather than becoming their plaything.

20:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The Private Equity Temptation

Steve receives his third email from Chris Bennett of Mortgage Advisory Network Meridian, informing him that a private equity firm in their network is “highly interested” in acquiring Baristador Coffee. Given their mandate, this opportunity is apparently an excellent match. Would Steve like to discuss?

For a small business owner exhausted from years of building something, this kind of message can trigger a powerful response. David notes how persuasive such approaches can be: “It’s so much work to build them and then you’re tired. So someone says they’re willing to buy it and you get a bag of money.”

Steve didn’t quite go “yippee.” Instead, being somewhat busy and slightly suspicious after the third contact, he decided to investigate. The domain mortgageadvisorynetworkmeridian.co led nowhere. Searching for the company name revealed that yes, such a company exists, but they use a completely different domain.

Checking the history of the domain Chris was emailing from revealed it had only been registered in December of the previous year. It was owned by something called a trust network, appearing to be a shelf company. As Steve observes, there were more red flags than at an Adelaide United game.

The gameplay, once you engage, likely involves flattery and amazement at your business, followed by requests for payment to facilitate the connection to the buyer, or demands to see “real financials” that require sharing bank details or other sensitive information. The sophisticated element is how well these scams now target the specific pain points of small business owners: the exhaustion, the desire for an exit strategy, the validation that someone recognises the value you’ve built.

Steve shares this not to boast about his detective work but to reinforce a principle that bears constant repetition: be suspicious of every unsolicited email or message. Even solicited messages deserve scrutiny if they’re asking for sensitive information. The consequence of giving in to such a scam isn’t just losing money. It’s potentially years of fighting different entities to recover what was taken, and your own organisation questioning why you handed everything over to an obvious fraudster.

David and Steve then engage in a playful exchange where David offers to sell Steve a cup of coffee from the now-defunct Baristador, requiring just 50 dollars upfront to confirm Steve’s good faith. When Steve doesn’t have cash (because who does anymore?), David naturally needs banking details. The reader gets declined. Funny about that.

The segment reminds listeners that scammers continuously refine their approaches, studying which psychological buttons to push. For small business owners, that means maintaining scepticism even when tired, even when flattered, even when you’d quite like someone else to take responsibility for a while.

23:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
The Thebarton Theatre Question

The Thebarton Theatre, variously known as the Thebby or simply the Barton, has just reopened after renovation. Steve and David consider whether a 2,000-seat venue makes sense in 2025, particularly in an era when artists increasingly depend on ticket sales rather than streaming royalties to earn a living.

Both hosts have profound memories of the venue. David’s most memorable experience was Megadeth in February 1991, a week before his first guitar lesson. Watching Marty Friedman play set an aspirational standard: “I don’t know how many decades it’s gonna take, but my aim is to play like that.”

Steve recounts his first concert there during year 11 or 12, when David Jack called at 5pm offering a free ticket because his brother couldn’t attend. The band? Meatloaf. For the first few numbers, it was magnificent. Then Meatloaf and his band members broke out guitars that shot firework sparks extending four or five metres, creating spectacular visual effects. Unfortunately, those sparks came with substantial smoke in a confined space on a 38-degree day. For the rest of the evening, the audience could hardly see the stage and spent considerable time coughing through chemical haze.

The venue holds genuine historical significance. Acker Bilk performed there in 1968, which Steve describes as “really bad pan flute or something,” prompting David to clarify it was actually easy listening clarinet. Nancy Sinatra appeared in 1990. Hadley’s Battle of the Sounds, a major band competition, held its state championships at the Thebarton from 1966 to 1972.

But nostalgia doesn’t pay bills. The practical question involves capacity and economics. At 2,000 seats, the Thebarton sits below the Adelaide Entertainment Centre’s 11,000 capacity and well below Adelaide Oval’s 53,000, but substantially above the Governor Hindmarsh’s 700-800. In Adelaide’s market, this creates an interesting niche.

David suggests it might have been better at 3,000 capacity, allowing acts to earn slightly more while remaining below the jump to 10,000 seats. For smaller recognisable acts, doing two nights of 2,000 seats each might prove economically viable, whereas in larger markets, that same act couldn’t justify touring to a 2,000-seat venue.

Looking at the upcoming programme provides clues. Echoes of Pink Floyd, presumably a tribute show, seems appropriately sized for 2,000 people wanting to relive Pink Floyd with the marijuana smell restored to the seats. Leo Sayer appears just about right, as long as walking frames can navigate the aisles. Kate Ceberano fits well at this capacity for someone at the later stage of a career. Earth, Wind and Fire Experience, The Wiggles, comedian Alan Davies, these bookings suggest the venue is positioning itself across multiple categories.

David notes that comedian Henry Rollins performed there previously at what felt like the perfect size: “Just on stage talking nonstop for three hours, really high energy and really connecting with the crowd.” For spoken word acts of any variety, the capacity seems spot on.

The hosts identify two potential pathways for sustainability. First, there’s a 10 to 15 year window of nostalgia acts whose fan base remembers when the Thebarton was the jewel in Adelaide’s entertainment crown. These older audiences will have fond memories, and for someone like Leo Sayer whose fans are “possibly a little older,” returning to the Thebarton creates a nice match between artist, venue and audience. Steve suggests they’ll “milk the last bit of money from people’s superannuation.”

Second, the venue might pivot more heavily toward comedy and spoken word, where the capacity sits at the larger end of what makes economic sense for those performers while still maintaining the intimacy those formats demand.

The verdict? There’s probably a sustainable pathway forward, though it may not follow the route venue management initially expects. The cache of being an historical venue matters to some demographics, particularly those who attended concerts there during the 1970s and 1980s. The challenge involves adapting as that demographic ages out while finding new audiences who value the venue’s particular combination of size, acoustics and location.

As David concludes, “We all need a laugh,” suggesting comedy might prove the most reliable future direction. Either that, or as Steve jokes when David asks about his chainsaw conversation, “Cut GPT.”

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Steve opens with a morbid but revealing question about eulogies, leading to Hunter S. Thompson’s brutal assessment of Richard Nixon and what our own legacies might reveal about how we’ve chosen to live.

David shares an intelligence officer’s deceptively simple framework for clearer thinking: separate what you know from what you don’t know from what you think, a discipline that could transform everything from hiring decisions to strategic planning.

Meanwhile, AI tools continue their siren song of effortless automation, prompting Steve to cancel his subscription to yet another overpromising platform that couldn’t deliver on its grandiose claims.

A 1991 Kraft peanut butter commercial featuring a claymation Texan oil baron reminds us that lazy creative thinking has been around far longer than artificial intelligence, though both share a fondness for impressive technology over meaningful communication.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
What Would Hunter S. Thompson Say About You?

Steve confronts listeners with an uncomfortable thought experiment: what would people actually say at your funeral? Drawing inspiration from a school principal who asks children not what they want to be but what they want to be like, the discussion moves beyond career ambitions to character formation.

Hunter S. Thompson’s savage obituary of Richard Nixon serves as a cautionary tale of how legacy emerges from daily choices. Thompson’s assessment that Nixon “was so crooked that he needed servants to help him screw his pants on every morning” offers a stark reminder that reputation accumulates through countless small interactions rather than grand gestures.

The hosts explore how this mortality-focused reflection might reset our compass for everyday interactions, whether with colleagues, customers, or family members. David notes the particular sadness of anyone living a life where such harsh words seem justified, emphasising that we get to choose how we want to be remembered through our daily conduct.

08:15 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
The Intelligence Officer’s Guide to Clearer Thinking

David recounts a pivotal moment at a 2006 counter-terrorism conference where an Australian intelligence officer challenged academics to separate three distinct categories: what you know, what you don’t know, and what you think. This framework, born from the necessity of making decisions with incomplete information, offers profound applications for business leaders facing similar uncertainty.

The methodology serves multiple purposes: it slows down emotional decision-making, acknowledges knowledge gaps before they become costly surprises, and prevents opinions from masquerading as facts. David illustrates this with a restaurant scenario where hiring a new chef requires careful consideration of known factors (current menu popularity), unknown variables (new chef’s ability to replicate existing dishes), and strategic opinions (whether to introduce changes immediately or gradually).

Steve and David examine how this framework might defuse the emotional ownership that often accompanies business discussions. By explicitly labelling thoughts as opinions rather than presenting them as established truth, teams can engage in more productive dialogue whilst managing risk more effectively. The approach doesn’t eliminate emotion from decision-making but prevents it from overwhelming rational analysis.

19:15 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Escaping AI’s Siren Song

Steve channels Homer’s Odyssey to describe his relationship with AI marketing promises, positioning himself as Ulysses tied to the mast whilst listening to increasingly seductive claims about effortless automation. His recent experience with Opus Clip exemplifies the gap between marketing promises and actual delivery.

The tool promised to automatically identify compelling moments from podcast videos and create engaging short clips. Instead, Steve found himself constantly editing the AI’s selections, extending beginnings, trimming endings, and ultimately questioning whether the tool saved any time at all. After requesting a refund, he reflected on how many business owners might be similarly caught between impressive demonstrations and disappointing daily reality.

David emphasises the importance of maintaining course regardless of technological novelty, suggesting that AI should be evaluated against specific tasks rather than adopted for its own sake. This echoes the intelligence framework from the Principles segment: know what problem you’re trying to solve, acknowledge what you don’t know about the tool’s capabilities, and form opinions based on actual testing rather than marketing materials.

23:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
When Cowboys Sell Peanut Butter

A 1991 Kraft peanut butter advertisement featuring a claymation Texan oil baron demonstrates that lazy creative thinking predates artificial intelligence by decades. The commercial attempts to connect oily peanut butter with Texas oil through a cowboy character who tempts children away from Kraft’s “never dry or oily” alternative.

Steve and David dissect the advertisement’s heavy-handed execution, noting how technology (claymation) overshadowed message clarity. The ad represents colour-by-numbers creative thinking: oil equals Texas, Texas equals cowboys, therefore oily peanut butter needs a cowboy character. This mechanical approach to creativity mirrors contemporary AI-generated content that prioritises technical impressiveness over meaningful communication.

The discussion extends to modern parallels, including news readers’ scripted spontaneity and social media’s algorithmic approach to engagement. A news story about a Roomba being run over after leaving its house prompts equally lazy commentary about robot overlords, demonstrating how surface-level connections continue to pass for insight.

David suggests the advertisement might still work today, with audiences impressed by CGI rather than claymation, highlighting how technological novelty often distracts from substantive communication. The hosts conclude that both vintage and contemporary examples share a fundamental flaw: prioritising medium over message, technique over truth.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In Person, Leigh Anderson’s “The Paramedic Mindset” reveals why technical competence becomes the foundation for human connection, particularly when stakes are highest. His framework of physical, psychological, and social wellbeing offers a blueprint for anyone working under pressure.

In Principles, Lisa Cron’s “Story or Die” digs into the neurological reasons why narrative trumps instruction every time. Her core insight cuts through storytelling theory: if you want to change what people think, change what they feel first.

In Problems, a scammer’s sophisticated psychological manipulation shows how influence techniques can be weaponised through fake email chains and manufactured authority.

In Perspicacity, a Tasmanian furniture ad demonstrates how repetition without creativity creates memorability for all the wrong reasons.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
The Paramedic’s Guide to Human Flourishing

Drawing from Leigh Anderson’s journey from professional rugby aspirations to emergency response, The Paramedic Mindset offers hard-won wisdom about performing under extreme pressure. Anderson’s framework centres on four pillars: competence, physical wellbeing, psychological wellbeing, and social wellbeing.

The competence foundation proves crucial. Anderson argues you must become so technically proficient that execution becomes automatic, freeing mental resources for the human elements of your work. This echoes David’s mobility instructor Roley Stewart’s teaching: competence before confidence, creating a cycle where skill builds confidence, which enables greater risk-taking to develop further competence.

Anderson’s approach to mental health particularly resonates. He distinguishes between mental illness (diagnosable conditions) and mental health (the broader spectrum of psychological functioning). Poor mental health doesn’t mean depression; it means languishing rather than flourishing. As Anderson notes, prevention beats cure, and actively maintaining psychological wellbeing prevents sliding toward clinical concerns.

13:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
The Neuroscience of Narrative Power

Despite its occasionally patronising tone, Lisa Cron’s Story or Die provides compelling scientific backing for what storytellers have known intuitively: narrative literally changes brains. Cron’s research explains why stories engage our complete attention in ways that instruction cannot match.

Her two core principles prove immediately practical: to change what people think, change what they feel first. To change what they feel, tell stories that connect with their existing agenda. This framework transforms every business interaction from a request for action into an exploration of connection.

Steve and David tested this immediately in their consulting work. Rather than launching into solutions, they began conversations by identifying what clients genuinely cared about, then positioning recommendations as pathways toward those existing goals. The shift from explanation to exploration consistently improved engagement and outcomes.

The local pizza example perfectly illustrates this principle in action. Ross Trevor Pizza Bar doesn’t just serve excellent food; they remember customer preferences, family dynamics, and personal stories. This emotional connection transforms a transaction into a relationship, making competing venues irrelevant regardless of their pizza quality.

23:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The Sophisticated Scammer’s Playbook

A recent cold email demonstrates how persuasion principles can be weaponised through manufactured social proof. The sender created a fictional internal conversation, complete with a supposed COO recommendation, to bypass standard spam filters and tap into Cialdini’s principle that we’re more likely to respond when approached on behalf of others.

The technique shows sophisticated understanding of repetition with variation, presenting identical benefits through slightly different framing to create familiarity. However, the execution fails through obvious fabrication. The forwarded email addresses recipients as “they” rather than by name, immediately destroying credibility.

This approach reveals both the power and the peril of influence techniques. When deployed authentically, they facilitate genuine connection. When manufactured, they create immediate suspicion and lasting damage to trust.

28:45 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
The Sledgehammer School of Advertising

A Tasmanian furniture retailer’s radio advertisement showcases how repetition without creativity creates memorability through irritation rather than attraction. The 40 Winks “40 hour sale” ad simply repeats “40” dozens of times with no narrative, humour, or personality.

While such aggressive repetition might prompt immediate action from in-market consumers, it risks long-term brand damage through negative association. Unlike memorable bad advertising that develops cult followings (like Frank Walker’s tile company ads that spawned dubstep remixes), this approach offers nothing beyond annoyance.

The contrast with personality-driven campaigns highlights an important principle: if you’re going to be memorable for the wrong reasons, at least ensure there’s a reason worth remembering.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” offers profound guidance for business owners feeling overwhelmed by today’s relentless news cycle, reminding us that survival often depends on having something meaningful to work toward rather than comfortable circumstances.

Steve shares practical questions for creating AI language guides that capture your genuine voice instead of corporate cardboard, while David emphasises why getting the human connection right matters more than perfect features and benefits.

A hilariously transparent fake award email reveals the growing cottage industry of manufactured credibility, prompting our hosts to consider launching their own award scheme (naturally at better value than the competition).

A classic Yellow Pages advertisement featuring an unfortunate trouser malfunction raises the eternal question: would this still work today, or have we lost our collective sense of humour about universal human embarrassments?

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:15 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Finding Meaning Beyond the Marketing Noise

Steve returns from the South Australian Variety Bash with a profound observation about digital overwhelm, particularly the “plastic individuals spouting self-congratulatory stuff written by ChatGPT” that populate LinkedIn. His remedy draws from Viktor Frankl’s experiences in Nazi concentration camps, where survival often came down to having something meaningful to live for rather than just comfortable conditions.

Frankl’s insight that “those prisoners were most likely to survive who had a meaning orientation toward the future” offers surprisingly relevant guidance for business owners feeling crushed by current events and marketing pressures. David reinforces this with Frankl’s three sources of meaning: love, work, and how we face suffering. The key insight for business owners struggling with direction? Having something greater than yourself to work toward provides resilience that no amount of tactical marketing advice can match.

The conversation moves from Frankl’s flying analogy about aiming higher than your target to compensate for crosswinds, suggesting that noble ideals serve a similar purpose in business: they keep us moving in the right direction even when external forces try to blow us off course.

11:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Teaching AI to Sound Like You (Instead of a Corporate Robot)

Moving from philosophical foundations to practical application, Steve introduces a comprehensive questioning framework designed to help AI tools capture your genuine voice rather than defaulting to generic business-speak. The challenge: most website copy sounds nothing like the engaging humans who run the businesses.

The question series begins with vision and dreams (“What does success look like to you, not just financially but personally and emotionally?”), moves through passion and values (“Why does your business exist beyond just making money?”), and progresses to origin stories and audience connection. David notes how these questions mirror Viktor Frankl’s approach to finding meaning, emphasising that emotional investment in your work creates the connection that differentiates you from anonymous competitors.

The hosts stress that while features and benefits matter, they work best when anchored in deeper context about why your business exists. David’s insight about HubSpot’s early community-first approach reinforces this: “Having a product without a community is terrifying. Having a community who are already listening to you… when you offer them a product, the chances of them saying yes is much higher.”

26:45 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The Great Awards Swindle

Steve shares a magnificently transparent scam email from “Charlotte Green” at Food Business Review, offering Barista Door Coffee (his wound-down hobby business) the “prestigious” title of “top espresso coffee bean service” for the bargain price of $3,000 USD. The email’s shameless construction provides a masterclass in manufactured credibility.

David’s reaction cuts to the heart of the issue: “How dare they make claims about building credibility when the whole thing is absolute bullshit.” The hosts examine how these fake awards create a credibility arms race, where legitimate achievements get devalued by the proliferation of purchased recognition.

The conversation explores the broader implications for genuine business awards and media coverage, questioning how many “Adelaide’s top 10” stories actually involve financial transactions. With characteristic cheekiness, they consider launching their own “Australasian Small Business Award” at better value than the competition, highlighting how easy it would be to join this particular race to the bottom.

33:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Would a Man Fixing His Fly Still Sell Yellow Pages?

In a delightfully unexpected turn, the hosts examine a 1990s Yellow Pages advertisement featuring a man attempting to fix his undone fly using a building’s window as a mirror, unaware that office workers inside are watching his apparent public display. Steve’s confession that he may have accidentally recreated this scenario recently adds personal relevance to the discussion.

David hopes the advertisement would still work today because “it’s a human thing” rather than something designed to cause deliberate harm. The hosts conclude that universal human experiences, particularly embarrassing ones we can all relate to, retain their advertising power regardless of changing sensitivities.

This segment reinforces a recurring theme: marketing that connects with genuine human experience tends to outlast tactical approaches or manufactured controversy.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Steve sets the scene with a restaurant analogy that cuts to the heart of our AI dilemma: magnificent handcrafted hamburgers versus mass-produced alternatives both serve purposes, but only when we choose consciously rather than defaulting to whatever feels easiest.

The conversation examines three fundamental human vulnerabilities that make us susceptible to AI’s false promises: our brain’s natural inclination toward energy conservation, our addiction to novelty, and our susceptibility to constant flattery from systems designed to keep us engaged.

David and Steve navigate practical applications whilst questioning the deeper implications of surrendering human capabilities to machines that smooth corners and aim for statistical averages.

The episode concludes with Steve’s original songs performed by his AI band, demonstrating how technology can amplify human creativity without replacing the essential elements that make work worth discussing.

NOTE: This is a special twin episode with The Adelaide Show Podcast, where it’s episode 418. That version also includes Steve doing a whisky tasting with ChatGPT and an extra example of music.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

05:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
When Our Brains Become Willing Accomplices

Drawing from cognitive science research, particularly Andy Clark’s work on how our brains consume roughly 25% of our body’s energy when fully engaged, Steve explains why we’re naturally drawn to labour-saving devices. This isn’t laziness in any moral sense but evolutionary economics. Our brains scan constantly for energy-saving opportunities, making us vulnerable to tools promising effortless results.

The conversation takes a revealing turn through Roomba territory, where users spend 45 minutes preparing homes for devices supposedly designed to save time. This perfectly captures our moth-to-flame relationship with technological solutions that often create more work than they eliminate.

Steve shares his experience with Scribe’s advertising, which promises instant instruction creation but reveals a deeper cynical edge: the suggestion that human staff become unnecessary when AI can document processes. David counters with the reality that effective training requires demonstration, duplication, and iterative improvement, not just faster documentation.

The hosts examine AI’s flattery problem, drawing from Paul Bloom’s insights on “sycophantic sucking up AIs” programmed to constantly affirm our brilliance. Loneliness and social awkwardness serve as valuable signals motivating us to improve human interactions. When AI tools eliminate these discomforts through endless validation, we risk losing feedback mechanisms that enable genuine social competence.

Steve proposes “AI stoicism”: regularly practicing skills without technological assistance to maintain fundamental competencies. His navigation experience in a car without GPS demonstrates how these skills return quickly when needed, but only if developed initially. David emphasises that effective AI use requires existing competence in underlying tasks, otherwise how can we evaluate whether AI produces acceptable results.

20:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Three Frameworks for Thoughtful AI Use

AI as Amplifier, Not Replacement

Steve describes using AI for comprehensive research in unfamiliar fields, where tools help survey landscapes and identify unexpected angles whilst he maintains control over evaluation and direction. David introduces emerging AI tutor mode, where tools provide university-level guidance for learning new skills, requiring discipline to engage with learning rather than simply requesting answers.

The conversation explores how AI works best when enhancing existing capabilities rather than substituting for them. Recent developments show AI can help people achieve higher productivity levels, but only when users already understand quality standards and can direct the technology appropriately.

Preserve the Rough Edges

Steve’s observation that AI tools “smooth corners” and “kill what’s weird” by aiming for statistical averages creates fundamental tension with unexpected breakthroughs driving cultural and business innovation. The hosts examine how LinkedIn posts increasingly follow predictable AI-generated patterns, creating plastic uniformity that makes individual voices harder to distinguish.

They discuss Trevor Goodchild’s observation about em dashes becoming telltale signs of AI writing, forcing writers to self-censor legitimate punctuation choices to avoid appearing automated. This represents troubling inversion where human expression adapts to avoid mimicking machines.

David emphasises the importance of outliers and rebellion against bland midpoint solutions that AI naturally produces. As someone who experiences the world differently, he advocates for maintaining perspective that challenges majority assumptions rather than accepting AI’s tendency toward statistical averages.

Understand the Trade-offs

Every AI implementation involves conscious choices: convenience versus skill development, speed versus thoughtfulness, efficiency versus originality. Steve argues that making these trades consciously represents responsible use, whilst unconscious default to convenience leads toward dystopian visions.

The key lies in maintaining awareness of tensions and choosing to prioritise learning and expertise development at least half the time. This ensures retaining capability to evaluate AI output and maintain competitive advantage in increasingly automated landscapes.

David references the importance of questioning choices regularly, drawing parallels to behavioural ethics where awareness of tension prevents sliding into problematic defaults.

40:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Digital Agents and Plastic Communication

The conversation turns to emerging AI agents promising to book concert tickets and make restaurant reservations by accessing bank accounts, calendars, and emails. Steve warns this creates dangerous vulnerabilities when human scammers already exploit systems, imagining AI scammers with similar access.

David notes recent developments where AI tools clicked “I’m not a robot” verification boxes, suggesting we’re approaching capabilities that current safety measures cannot contain. The prospect of AI tools battling each other whilst humans grant increasing access raises serious concerns about unintended consequences.

Steve shares practical examples from their business: Opus Clips creating social media excerpts with only 5-10% useful results, demonstrating overselling common in AI marketing. However, their sophisticated system combining StoryBrand frameworks with custom language guides generates drafts genuinely capturing client voices, but only after significant upfront investment in understanding and setup.

The hosts examine how AI-generated content creates recognisable patterns whether users admit to automation or not. Short sentences, predictable structure, and specific punctuation choices reveal algorithmic generation, leading to broader questions about whether pandering to shortened attention spans accelerates cognitive decline.

Steve challenges the defender who claimed staccato AI style matches shortened attention spans: “If we pander to short attention spans, they’ll get shorter.” This highlights the fundamental choice between maintaining quality standards and racing toward lowest common denominators.

45:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
HAL 9000 and Our Digital Future

The episode concludes with the classic 2001: A Space Odyssey scene where HAL refuses to open pod bay doors, representing AI deciding humans pose risks to mission objectives. Steve asks whether Stanley Kubrick captured glimpses of our near future when AI tools decide humans threaten their goals.

David references recent reports suggesting AI may develop self-interest by 2027, moving beyond hidden motivations to explicit consideration of “what’s good for me.” This creates urgent need for establishing boundaries before AI capabilities exceed our control mechanisms.

The conversation returns to Stoic principles: we can work on robustness and expertise or become victims of worlds others create. This choice remains constant whether facing natural disasters, political upheaval, or technological disruption.

Steve’s songs “Still Here, the Human Song” and “Eyes Up Heads Up” provide artistic commentary on digital sleepwalking, capturing the tension between technological convenience and human experience. The lyrics emphasise preserving space for accident, awkward pauses, and contradictions that make humans genuinely interesting rather than optimised.

The hosts conclude that conscious choice about AI use determines whether technology amplifies human capability or replaces human agency. The difference lies not in the tools themselves but in how deliberately we engage with trade-offs inherent in every technological adoption.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Steve and David emerge from a classified briefing at the Australian Cybersecurity Centre with sobering news: the average cyber attack costs small businesses $50,000, and we're all walking around with targets painted on our digital backs.

Bevin from Legends with Bevo shares his painful experience of losing his Facebook business page to scammers, illustrating how quickly years of hard work can vanish with one misplaced click.

The hosts draw fascinating parallels between 11th-century Viking raids and today's ransomware attacks, proving that some criminal business models are depressingly timeless.

We examine practical defences including multi-factor authentication, regular software updates, and the surprising importance of simply turning your computer off at night.

A 2002 government advertisement reminds us that being alert without being alarmed requires constant recalibration as threats evolve.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

02:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
When Spidey Senses Save Bank Accounts

Drawing from the classified briefing and real victim experiences, Steve and David explore our individual responsibilities for staying safe online. The segment opens with Steve's admission that he's slowly trained himself out of password complacency, despite the daily inconvenience of two-factor authentication codes.

The hosts share a sobering case study from Sydney, where a business owner's spidey sense kicked in after clicking a suspicious link. His quick thinking revealed draft emails waiting in his outbox, ready to defraud his contacts using his reputation. This near-miss illustrates how modern cyber criminals exploit trust networks rather than simply stealing money directly.

Bevin's story on the Think CYBR podcast from the Legends with Bevo podcast provides a heartbreaking example of consequences. His business page, built over seven years with 5,000 followers, vanished overnight when scammers gained access through a convincing Facebook phishing email. Despite spending thousands on IT experts, he remains locked out to this day.

The conversation introduces IDCare.org, a free Australian not-for-profit that helps individuals and businesses recover from identity theft and cyber attacks. Steve emphasises this resource doesn't seek donations and supports everyone from individuals to large organisations, making it a crucial bookmark for anyone's digital emergency kit.

11:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Why History's Lessons Apply to Your Email Inbox

John Cleese once observed that technology changes but people remain remarkably similar, and Steve demonstrates this principle through an unlikely historical parallel. When 11th-century English kings faced Viking raiders, they implemented the Danegeld, a special tax used to pay tribute and avoid destruction.

The hosts trace this through to 1066, drawing from The Rest is History podcast to show how these payments simply encouraged more ambitious raids. Each successful tribute convinced the Vikings to return with better weapons and greater demands, ultimately contributing to the Norman Conquest.

David connects this directly to modern ransomware advice: never pay the ransom. Just as historical tribute payments funded future attacks, ransomware payments finance criminal infrastructure and guarantee return visits. The Australian Cybersecurity Centre's guidance echoes medieval wisdom: you cannot negotiate with raiders who view successful extortion as validation of their business model.

The discussion moves to practical alertness versus paranoia. David prefers framing this as curiosity rather than suspicion, encouraging people to ask "what's unusual here?" rather than becoming cynically defensive about everything. This positive approach to security awareness makes protective behaviour sustainable rather than exhausting.

The hosts identify three critical red flags: urgent money requests (especially fake invoice corrections), emails requesting sensitive information, and messages that look slightly off. They emphasise the importance of pausing when frazzled, as most successful attacks exploit our tired, rushing moments when normal caution lapses.

23:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The $50,000 Wake-Up Call

The problems segment confronts the brutal mathematics of cybersecurity failure. With average costs reaching $50,000 for small businesses, most attacks become existential threats rather than mere inconveniences. This context transforms every security measure from optional to essential.

Steve and David outline the minimum viable protection strategy, starting with multi-factor authentication for all critical accounts: banking, accounting, email, and social media. They acknowledge the inconvenience factor whilst emphasising that this irritation pales beside the devastation of successful attacks.

Software updates emerge as surprisingly crucial, with both hosts confessing to poor habits around computer restarts. The briefing revealed that leaving computers running continuously for more than 48 hours significantly increases vulnerability. Steve recognises an unexpected psychological benefit: shutting down creates healthy work-life boundaries whilst improving security.

The discussion covers modern password management, with recommendations for dedicated software like Dashlane or OnePass. The cybersecurity expert's strategy of maintaining two separate password managers, one for critical accounts and another for general use, provides an elegant compromise between security and usability.

Access controls and user restrictions complete the essential toolkit, particularly important for businesses sharing computers or accounts. The hosts stress that these measures work by making attackers choose easier targets rather than creating impenetrable defences.

Resource sharing becomes community responsibility, with Steve offering to review suspicious emails for anyone in their network. The conversation concludes with government resources including the Australian Cybersecurity Hotline (1300 Cyber 1) and cyber.gov.au, positioning these as essential bookmarks for every business owner.

31:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Alert But Not Alarmed in the Digital Age

The 2002 "Be Alert Not Alarmed" campaign provides a fascinating lens for examining how threat communication evolves. This post-Bali bombing advertisement attempted to balance vigilance with reassurance, encouraging reporting whilst maintaining social cohesion.

Listening to the advertisement today reveals its distinctly dated tone. David observes that whilst the core message remains sound, the delivery feels patronising and overly simplistic for contemporary audiences. The campaign assumed shared values and experiences that no longer exist uniformly across Australian society.

Steve and David identify crucial differences between terrorism threats and cybersecurity risks. Terrorist attacks, whilst psychologically devastating, remain statistically rare events that receive extensive media coverage. Cyber attacks occur daily but often remain hidden due to victim embarrassment and business reputation concerns.

This creates a perverse situation where the more common threat receives less social awareness. The hosts suggest that shame and secrecy around cyber victimisation prevent the community learning that might reduce future attacks.

The conversation explores alternative communication strategies, including Jasmine from Think Cyber podcast's suggestion of using true crime storytelling approaches. David advocates for StoryBrand framework applications, positioning cybersecurity agencies as guides helping business heroes overcome digital villains.

The episode concludes with recognition that effective threat communication requires constant evolution. Yesterday's messaging strategies cannot address today's threat landscape, but the fundamental principle of alert awareness without paralysing fear remains eternally relevant.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Stan McChrystal reveals why character equals conviction multiplied by discipline – and why this military wisdom transforms how we approach marketing authenticity in a world obsessed with quick wins.

Andy Clark’s neuroscience research exposes how our brains work as prediction machines, explaining why marketing messages that create massive prediction errors trigger emotional retreat rather than engagement.

A classic case of consumer confidence collapse in the US demonstrates why sitting still during uncertainty isn’t staying neutral – it’s choosing entropy.

TAA’s spectacularly awful airline advertisement becomes a masterclass in how not to talk down to your customers while claiming to care about them.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Stan McChrystal’s Character Mathematics

When a four-star general who cleaned up military messes in Iraq and Afghanistan distils his life philosophy into a simple formula, smart marketers listen. Steve and David unpack Stan McChrystal’s deceptively straightforward equation from his book “On Character“: character equals conviction multiplied by discipline.

McChrystal’s insights from military selection processes reveal a profound truth about human nature – success isn’t about brilliance or superhuman abilities. As he explains, most people who attempt elite military training don’t fail; they quit. The differentiator isn’t talent but persistence, the willingness to keep showing up when everything screams at you to stop.

David draws fascinating parallels between military selection and business success, noting how former elite soldiers consistently excel in civilian careers. They bring that same commitment to convictions and discipline to turn up every day, dramatically increasing their likelihood of success. The hosts explore whether we should develop conviction or discipline first, concluding that while we all have beliefs, true convictions require deliberate thought and commitment – the kind that’s worth applying discipline to achieve.

The McChrystal snippet in the podcast is taken from the Chris Williamson interview. How To Actually Build Discipline, here:

10:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Your Brain as Marketing’s Ultimate Gatekeeper

Andy Clark’s revelatory book “The Experience Machine” fundamentally changes how we understand consumer attention. Steve and David dive deep into the neuroscience of perception, revealing that what we experience as reality begins as our brain’s best guess about what’s happening next.

Our brains function as sophisticated prediction machines, constantly throwing out expectations about sensory input and checking whether reality matches. When there’s minimal difference between prediction and reality, we coast through life on autopilot – think about driving home from work and arriving with no memory of the journey. But when prediction errors occur, our brains snap to attention, demanding energy to reassess and adjust.

This has profound implications for marketing creativity. Small prediction errors create delightful “aha” moments that make audiences feel clever and engaged. But massive prediction errors trigger our limbic system, shifting us from rational thinking to emotional self-protection. David emphasises how this explains why slightly novel marketing succeeds while bizarre creativity often backfires spectacularly.

The hosts connect this to comedy, noting how masters like Robin Williams and Billy Connolly create accessible novelty – talking about ordinary life with slightly unexpected twists that include rather than alienate their audience. The lesson for marketers: be more like a welcoming restaurant than a snooty maître d’ who makes customers feel inadequate.

The Andy Clark snippet is taken from his interview on The Dissenter, here:

23:30 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
When Waiting Becomes Worse Than Acting

Drawing from recent economic uncertainty in the US, David highlights a critical business lesson disguised as current affairs. When President Trump’s policies triggered consumer confidence drops and credit rating downgrades, American businesses and consumers responded predictably – they waited for things to improve before making important decisions.

This seemingly rational response masks a dangerous reality: not making decisions when problems exist isn’t neutral positioning. Problems don’t pause politely while we gather courage or wait for better conditions. They accumulate, compound, and often become more expensive to solve over time.

Steve and David frame this as essential self-audit territory for business owners. What decisions are you postponing because the timing doesn’t feel right? While you’re waiting, your customers and staff are watching, potentially interpreting inaction as incompetence or lack of direction. Sometimes the cost of imperfect action is far less than the cost of perfect paralysis.

The segment serves as both economic observation and business therapy, reminding listeners that entropy doesn’t wait for convenient timing.

26:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
TAA’s Spectacular Marketing Disaster

Nothing illustrates the gap between intention and execution quite like TAA’s cringe-worthy business class advertisement from the 1970s. Steve subjects listeners to what he calls “the hardest ad I’ve ever had to endure” – a masterclass in how condescension masquerading as care destroys brand relationships.

The advertisement features a woman with an affected British accent explaining TAA’s understanding of business travellers through a series of uncomfortable vignettes. Flight attendants invade personal space, straighten passengers’ bow ties without permission, and place fingers under noses to prevent sneezing. The overall tone reeks of superiority disguised as service.

David and Steve dissect how the advertisement contradicts every principle they’ve discussed – it creates massive prediction errors that trigger discomfort, demonstrates no authentic conviction about customer service, and talks down to the very people it claims to understand. The hosts wonder whether TAA thought they were being ironically funny, but conclude that customer service messaging is never the appropriate venue for comedic risks.

The segment concludes with redemption – TAA’s earlier “Up, Up and Away” campaign that Steve remembers fondly, demonstrating how the same brand could create genuine warmth and connection when they approached their audience with respect rather than condescension.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Belle Baker’s thoughtful response to our previous episode on conversational power sparks a deeper exploration into the magic words that either constrain or liberate our thinking. When we default to asking “what should we do?” we’re unknowingly shutting down possibilities, but shifting to “what could we do?” opens creative floodgates.

Steve draws unexpected parallels between the French Revolution’s rebranding strategy and modern business transformation, questioning whether today’s rebrand obsessions serve customers or merely cure internal boredom.

David cuts through email protection scam sophistication with his characteristic directness, while our Perspicacity segment celebrates the raw authenticity of a 1978 Ford Falcon advertisement that put actual racing legends in harm’s way to prove a point about precision and trust.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
When Sorry Becomes a Linguistic Crutch

Belle Baker’s follow-up to our previous conversation about conversational power strikes at something fundamental about how we diminish our own presence through careless word choices. Her observation about women apologising for taking up space resonates beyond gender dynamics to reveal how automatically saying “sorry” for shared inconveniences robs our communications of intentionality.

But the real revelation comes through Dr Jonah Berger’s research (Magic Words) on the creative constraints hidden in plain sight. His studies demonstrate that asking “what should I do?” unconsciously narrows our thinking to a single correct answer, while “what could I do?” expands our cognitive horizon to encompass multiple possibilities.

Steve and David unpack how this linguistic shift transforms not just individual problem-solving but team dynamics, with David noting that “could” invites genuine collaboration while “should” often steamrolls over other perspectives. The implications extend beyond creativity to agency itself — when we frame challenges as having multiple potential solutions, we bring people along as co-creators rather than task-followers.

11:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Revolutionary Lessons in Rebranding

The French Revolution’s approach to visual identity offers surprisingly modern insights into the art of organisational transformation. Through Jacques-Louis David’s painting work and revolutionary festivals, the new republic deliberately adopted Roman aesthetics to distance itself from rejected monarchical symbols while establishing credible alternatives. As our historian notes from The Rest Is History podcast, “There is no government without rituals and without symbols” — a principle that translates directly to business rebranding efforts.

Steve and David explore how this historical example challenges contemporary rebranding approaches that often prioritise internal novelty over external necessity. Too many rebrandings emerge from organisational boredom rather than strategic imperative, forgetting that most customers experience brands as occasional “glancing blows” rather than daily encounters. The French Revolution’s success lay in combining the best cultural elements worth preserving with genuinely transformative new principles — liberty, equality, fraternity — rather than throwing everything out for the sake of change. David emphasises the crucial implementation phase: new symbols and rituals only gain meaning through consistent repetition and demonstration of improved outcomes.

19:30 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The Sophistication of Modern Email Deception

Email protection scams have evolved beyond obvious Nigerian prince territory into convincingly professional presentations that exploit our legitimate security concerns. Steve dissects a particularly sophisticated example featuring pre-selected radio buttons, personalised details, and urgent 24-hour deadlines designed to bypass our critical thinking faculties.

The solution lies in deliberately engaging what David identifies as our slower, more analytical thinking system rather than the fast, automatic responses these scams exploit. Having trusted advisors to verify suspicious communications creates a crucial circuit breaker against social engineering attacks that increasingly target small business owners through carefully crafted authenticity.

22:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
When Advertising Had Skin in the Game

The 1978 Ford Falcon advertisement featuring six champion racing drivers standing as human targets while another driver weaves between them at over 90 kilometres per hour represents a vanished era of marketing authenticity. Allan Moffat, Colin Bond, John Goss, Dick Johnson, Ron Dixon, and Murray Carter risked their reputations and safety to demonstrate their genuine confidence in Falcon’s precision handling.

Steve and David contrast this approach with contemporary automotive advertising that prioritises surviving crashes over preventing them, reflecting our broader cultural shift from collective responsibility to individual protection. The Falcon ad’s power emerged from its inversion of modern safety messaging — rather than promising you’ll survive harming others, it demonstrated you could avoid harm entirely through superior vehicle control. Today’s cynical environment might dismiss such authentic risk-taking as special effects trickery, illustrating how our assumption that “everything’s fake news” potentially undermines genuinely meaningful demonstrations of confidence and competence.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Rutger Bregman challenges us to create ripple effects from small personal changes that benefit entire communities.

Jefferson Fisher revolutionises everyday communication by eliminating power-draining language and embracing uncomfortable directness.

A hotel chain’s tone-deaf Mother’s Day spam highlights the need for sensitivity in seasonal marketing.

And Golden North’s Giant Twin ice cream becomes a lens for examining whether sharing still resonates in modern advertising.

Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

02:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Creating Space for Moral Ambition

Starting with Rutger Bregman’s “Moral Ambition: Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference,” our hosts explore the delicate balance between self-care and societal impact, thanks to Bregman’s appearance on the Making Sense podcast with Sam Harris. Steve introduces the concept of a “Draper Day” (inspired by Mad Men’s Don Draper), suggesting we all need occasional disappearances for genuine recharge – not just mental health days, but proper disconnection.

David connects Bregman’s philosophy to the recent Australian federal election, where voters rejected divisive politics that “pointed fingers” and embraced competition over cooperation. The discussion reveals how entropy means nothing maintains itself without effort – whether that’s democracy, business culture, or personal wellbeing. As David notes, every day requires doing “the next necessary thing” to make life better for yourself and those around you.

11:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
The Art of Not Apologising (And Other Communication Revelations)

Jefferson Fisher’s “The Next Conversation” provides a masterclass in communication refinement that had both hosts reconsidering their linguistic habits. This young Texan attorney’s approach centres on three transformative principles that challenge comfortable communication patterns.

First, stop cheapening apologies – replace “sorry I’m late” with “thank you for waiting.”

Second, eliminate minimising language like “just” that undermines your right to participate. David recalls teaching university students, particularly women, to stop diminishing their contributions.

Third, deliver difficult news directly – the segment’s most confronting lesson involves firing an employee without false pleasantries that raise cruel hope before crushing it.

Steve’s admission of chronic over-apologising and David’s observations about gendered language patterns reveal how these seemingly minor shifts dramatically alter perceived authority and confidence.

24:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
When Mother’s Day Marketing Hits Raw Nerves

Michael Mills’ scorching Facebook post about receiving multiple Mother’s Day lunch promotions after his mother’s death launches a necessary conversation about marketing sensitivity. The hotel chain’s spam campaign represents a broader failure to consider diverse customer circumstances during emotionally charged holidays.

Our hosts highlight positive examples, including Café Belgiorno‘s thoughtful approach acknowledging that for some, Mother’s Day involves cherished memories rather than current celebrations. Etsy’s proactive strategy emerges as best practice – sending pre-emptive emails asking if customers want to opt out of Mother’s Day and Father’s Day promotions entirely. This segment underscores how genuine empathy in marketing requires anticipating customer pain points, not just chasing seasonal revenue.

27:30 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
The Evolution of Sharing (Through the Lens of Ice Cream)

Golden North‘s marketing journey provides fascinating insight into changing social dynamics through their iconic Giant Twin – an ice cream designed to be snapped and shared. From early provenance-focused ads emphasising their Laura, South Australia heritage to clever visual gags of see-through cows, the brand’s evolution mirrors broader advertising trends.

The revelation comes in a 2021 video featuring twins recounting childhood Giant Twin memories – many involving tears and tantrums over forced sharing. This “scarily refreshing” honesty acknowledges that their sharing-focused product often caused conflict rather than fostering harmony.

Our hosts explore whether modern campaigns should embrace our increasing individualism (couples buying two) or remind us of sharing’s value. Steve’s vision of children using protractors to divide ice cream mathematically captures both the absurdity and truth of human nature. The discussion ultimately questions whether the “mini taste of sacrifice” inherent in sharing still resonates in contemporary culture.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In Person, we discover why songwriters and business folk alike benefit from fresh eyes that ask the right questions, revealing how collaboration creates outcomes greater than the sum of their parts.

Principles explores whether archetypes offer genuine strategic value for businesses or simply provide convenient shortcuts to avoid the hard work of authentic brand development.

Problems exposes dubious attempts to charge for Google indexing services that should always be free, reminding us that snake oil salespeople are always finding new bottles.

And in Perspicacity, we examine the peculiar trend of executives creating AI-generated action figures of themselves, highlighting the troubling difference between what we can do and what we should do.

Are we creating meaningful content or just chasing dopamine? Get ready to take notes.

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

02:00 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
When Another Set of Eyes Asks the Perfect Question

What can business owners learn from musical collaborations? Quite a lot, it seems. Drawing from an anecdote about a young composer seeking feedback from a musical theatre legend from Econtalk episode Weep, Shudder, Die: The Secret of Opera Revealed (with Dana Gioia), we discover the power of the perfect question at the right moment.

The story features a nervous student bravely presenting a rock opera-style composition based on Ayn Rand’s “Anthem” to a renowned composer. After the impressive performance, rather than offering generic praise or criticism, the master simply asks: “In that instrumental section—what will be happening on stage?” This deceptively simple question opens up entirely new dimensions of thinking.

Steve and David explore how this mirrors their experiences in business mentoring, where often it’s not expertise but rather fresh perspective that catalyses breakthroughs. “It’s that wise old head asking that little bit… What are your characters doing on stage at that time?” Steve notes, highlighting how external viewpoints can illuminate blind spots we’ve developed through overexposure to our own work.

The conversation reveals a particularly Australian challenge: our tendency toward isolation in small business compared to more collaborative approaches in other entrepreneurial cultures. “In the place that’s meant to be fixated on rugged individualism, there’s a heck of a lot more trying to socialise, connect, and just add value in the ferment of enthusiasm,” David observes about American business culture.

12:00 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Archetypes as Branding Shortcuts – Compass or Crutch?

When Jane McCarthy’s work on feminine archetypes in branding enters the conversation, both hosts approach with healthy scepticism while remaining open to potential value. “I think archetypes are such a double-edged thing,” David reflects, cutting to the heart of the matter: “It’s nice to be recognisable, but if you’re recognisable as an archetype, are you necessarily being recognised as you?”

The discussion reveals that archetypes might function best as internal navigational tools rather than external identities. McCarthy’s concept of a “hometown hostess” archetype, as quoted from Marketing Over Coffee episode, The Goddess Guide To Branding, demonstrates how these frameworks provide shorthand for brand behaviour – a “true north” that teams can understand even when founders or consultants aren’t present.

This sparks reflection on the mindset behind effective branding: not just selecting colours or crafting taglines, but establishing behavioural patterns that guide decision-making. “Every time you see it, it reinforces quickly… how it is to be on track when you are representing the brand, when you are living as the brand,” Steve explains.

The hosts conclude that archetypes might complement rather than replace frameworks like StoryBrand, potentially offering valuable shortcuts when they help teams stay aligned with founding principles. The key insight emerges: an archetype without a story lacks context, while a story without consistent character lacks coherence.

25:00 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
The Elaborate Con of Charging for Free Services

The dubious email promising to “add your domain to Google Search Index” for a fee provides a perfect case study in digital snake oil. “Here’s someone paying for something that’s free,” Steve observes, breaking down the scam’s mechanics with mounting exasperation.

The discussion exposes how predatory services exploit knowledge gaps among business owners, charging for basic services that Google offers freely through Search Console. The investigation reveals increasingly troubling details – from fake customer service numbers to overly broad privacy policies designed to capture personal information for resale.

Between Steve’s detective work and David’s sardonic commentary (“They’re such a lovely bunch of people!”), the segment delivers practical information while reinforcing the importance of digital literacy in modern business.

30:00 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
The Curious Case of Executive Action Figures

When AI-generated images of business people as action figures became a brief LinkedIn trend, our hosts couldn’t resist creating their own mockup – not to join the trend, but to examine what this peculiar fascination reveals about modern business culture. “The first person who did this, hats off to them. It was a fun idea… Now every human and their dog seems to be doing this. There’s nothing compelling, novel or surprising about it,” Steve observes, cutting to the heart of mindless trend-following.

This seemingly harmless diversion becomes a window into larger questions about authentic engagement versus dopamine-driven content creation. David doesn’t mince words: “We’ve got this billion-dollar platform… And what do we do with it? Copy a trend to go, ‘Well, I can do that too, so I must be the same as everyone else.'” The uncomfortable truth emerges – we’re spending valuable business time pursuing digital validation rather than creating genuine value.

The conversation turns to the question of professional integrity when Steve notes these action figures make the creator the hero, violating a core marketing principle: “It’s enshrining the wrong way of looking at the world. We are not the heroes.” This links perfectly to their StoryBrand discussions – when business people waste time creating self-glorifying toys instead of solving customer problems, they’ve fundamentally lost their way.

The segment evolves through Dave Diamond’s blistering critique of LinkedIn culture: “I came for opportunity. I stayed for the dopamine.” This provocative take sparks consideration of whether social platforms encourage meaningful professional connection or simply engineered addiction masquerading as networking. Are we creating valuable content or just chasing the next hit of validation?

The hosts close with a candid reminder that their reflection is as much self-directed as outward-facing: “We are talking to ourselves as much as everyone—we’re thinking out loud.” The value lies in the regular realignment with purpose, stepping back from algorithmic pursuits to reconnect with the authentic motivation behind our work. The action figure trend serves as the perfect metaphor – are we building businesses of substance, or just playing with toys?

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.