Talking About Marketing

In this episode's "Person" segment, we dive into "The Expectation Effect" by David Robson, uncovering how our brains function as prediction machines and the profound impact our expectations have on our mental energy and capabilities. Through groundbreaking research and practical insights, we explore the transformative power of altering our beliefs about our cognitive resources. This discussion offers invaluable strategies for enhancing productivity, focus, and overall well-being, making it essential listening for anyone looking to unlock their full potential in an over-stimulated world.

In the Principles segment, we delve into the crucial concept of attention in the realm of business and marketing. This conversation is sparked by insights drawn from a chapter on attention in William James' seminal work, "Principles of Psychology." Through an engaging dialogue, we explore James' profound definition of attention as the mind's ability to clearly and vividly focus on one among several potential thoughts or objects. This discussion not only sheds light on the intrinsic value of singular focus over multitasking but also navigates through various facets of attention, including selective attention and the limitations of our perception.

In light of the recent, unprecedented data leak affecting major companies like LinkedIn and Adobe—exposing a staggering 26 billion records—we find ourselves at a critical juncture regarding digital security. Steve and David discuss what this means for us.

In our Perspicacity segment, we delve into the timeless appeal of advertising campaigns that have left an indelible mark on popular culture through the creation of memorable, fictitious characters. Exploring iconic ads such as Solvol, Quik (which Steve references as Milo), and the unforgettable "Not Happy, Jan!" from the Yellow Pages era, we question the enduring effectiveness of these campaigns. Can the clever use of character-driven narratives in advertising still resonate with audiences today, or have we moved beyond this creative approach? Join us as we unravel the magic behind these ads, examining the power of names and personal stories in making messages stick and pondering whether this strategy remains as impactful as ever in the ever-evolving landscape of marketing.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:08 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
The Expectation Effect

In this week's Person segment, we delve into the fascinating realm of The Expectation Effect, a compelling concept explored in depth by David Robson. This exploration sheds light on how our brains operate as prediction machines, constantly forecasting and adjusting to our environment and internal states based on expectations. Robson's work reveals that our mental and physical capabilities are not as fixed as we once believed but are significantly influenced by our perceptions and beliefs.

The segment highlights a particularly intriguing aspect relevant to entrepreneurs and business leaders: the way we manage our mental energy and resources. Contrary to the once-popular belief that our brain energy is a finite resource that needs careful rationing throughout the day—a belief that led figures like Barack Obama and Steve Jobs to simplify their daily choices to conserve mental energy—Robson presents a groundbreaking perspective. He argues that our brain's energy supply is not as limited as we think. By adjusting our expectations and beliefs about our mental stamina, we can tap into a seemingly limitless reservoir of cognitive power.

This notion is further supported by the research of Veronika Job at the University of Vienna, which demonstrates how our beliefs about the brain's energy capacity can profoundly affect our ability to maintain focus and self-control under pressure. By priming individuals with the belief that mental exertion can be energising rather than depleting, Job found significant improvements in performance and willpower.

This segment is not just an academic discussion but includes practical applications and personal experiences that underscore the power of expectations. By reevaluating how we interpret signals like hunger or fatigue and by challenging our preconceived notions about our limitations, we can extend our productive hours and enhance our overall well-being.

09:33 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
William James On Attention

This segment kicks off with an acknowledgment of the AIDA model's foundational principle, highlighting attention as the crucial first step in engaging an audience. This exploration is enriched by insights from the podcast Very Bad Wizards, referencing a deep dive into a chapter on attention from William James' seminal work, "Principles in Psychology."

William James' definition of attention as the mind's focused possession of a particular thought or object among several possibilities captures the essence of effective marketing and the challenge of multitasking. This discussion segues into the pitfalls of multitasking and the unrealistic expectation that our brains can equally process and record every piece of information. The conversation brings to light the concept of automaticity and its disruption, using the metaphor of navigating an awkward staircase to illustrate how focusing on a single task can be both essential and exhausting.

The narrative then shifts to different types of attention, exemplified by the famous "invisible gorilla" test, demonstrating how selective focus can blind us to unexpected elements. This example serves as a metaphor for the dangers small businesses face when they concentrate too narrowly on certain objectives, potentially overlooking other crucial aspects.

Through engaging storytelling and scholarly insights, Steve and David unravel the complexity of attention in marketing. They underscore the necessity of understanding and strategically capturing the audience's focus, emphasising the role of preconceived categories in shaping perception.

23:50 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Big Data Leak

In light of the recent, unprecedented data leak affecting major companies like LinkedIn and Adobe—exposing a staggering 26 billion records—we find ourselves at a critical juncture regarding digital security.

This breach serves as a stark reminder of the vulnerability inherent in using identical usernames and passwords across multiple websites. The simplicity of our digital habits could unwittingly grant cybercriminals a "master key" to our online lives.

Our message to you is straightforward yet crucial: adopt robust, unique passwords for each of your accounts. While we all crave convenience, this incident underscores the dangerous trade-off between ease of memory and the risk of being hacked. As we navigate this digital age, our commitment to reinforcing this advice remains unwavering, aiming to protect your online presence against ever-evolving threats.

25:25 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Wash Your Hands, Geoffrey

In perspicacity we often look at old campaigns and advertising and ask, would they work today? There are three we've tied together in which a fictitious character is named and becomes part of popular parlance.

These are interesting types of ads, and Steve and David discuss whether creating a fictitious character and the nagging or the reference to that character, when done in a way that people can use in normal conversation, could still work today?

Here are three ads that we discuss.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome to the launch of Series 4 of "Talking About Marketing," where we dissect the essence of marketing through our unique four P's approach: Person, Principles, Problems, and Perspicacity. This episode is a journey through the intricacies of personal development, timeless principles, navigating challenges, and helpful insights in the marketing realm, both theoretical and practical.

In our opening segment, we delve into the profound concept that the aim of life is self-development, as inspired by the insightful book "Change Your Questions, Change Your Life." This discussion illuminates the stark contrast between approaching life's challenges from a 'judger' versus a 'learner' perspective. However, we then drink deeply from Vincent Deary's well through his book, How We Break. His challenge to us is to take Rest seriously.

In the second segment, we explore the timeless wisdom of "The Book of the Courtier" by Baldassare Castiglione. This segment offers a discussion on the art of navigating power dynamics with grace, intelligence, and integrity. Castiglione's masterpiece, set against the backdrop of Renaissance Italy, serves as a sophisticated guide to developing the finesse required for effective influence and leadership in any era; David loves it, Steve is not so sure.

In our Problems segment, we address the significant shift in email deliverability standards and the risks they pose to your business. Not receiving those orders? Our tech guru, David Murrin, joins us to explain what has happened and what can be done about it. This segment, alone, is worth the price of admission!

Finally, we navigate through the landscape of social media's influence on society, contrasting fleeting negative trends with the enduring impact of positive actions. Through discussions on the power of positive viral content and the transformation of perceptions, we underscore the importance of creating content that not only captures attention but also inspires and resonates on a deeper level.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:43 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
How We Break

In this segment, we delve into the profound impact of self-questioning and kindness towards oneself and others, drawing from the insightful works Change Your Questions, Change Your Life by Marilee Adams and How We Break by Vincent Deary. These books offer not just a roadmap to personal development but also a mirror reflecting the subtle intricacies of our internal dialogues and the transformative power of love over condemnation.

"Change Your Questions, Change Your Life" challenges us to shift from a judger to a learner perspective. Instead of asking accusatory questions like "Who is the idiot who did this?" it encourages inquiries that foster growth and understanding, such as "What led to this decision?" This shift, though seemingly simple, is a rigorous exercise in self-awareness and empathy, demanding constant vigilance over our own thought processes, especially when directing them towards ourselves.

Vincent Deary's "How We Break" serves as a poignant reminder of the necessity of kindness — to be as compassionate with ourselves as we are with others. Deery's personal journey underscores the realization that transformation is fueled by love, not criticism. This message resonates deeply, reminding us that the path to personal and professional fulfillment is paved with self-compassion and understanding.

The episode also touches on the essential role of rest and restoration in our lives. In a world where activity and productivity are often valorised at the expense of tranquility, Deary's emphasis on rest as not just a cessation of activity but as a vital, rejuvenating state, is a wake-up call. He challenges the notion of rest as a luxury, framing it instead as an indispensable component of a balanced, healthy life.

This conversation is for anyone navigating the complex demands of personal and professional growth. It underscores the importance of gentle self-inquiry, the transformative power of kindness, and the undeniable value of rest in our relentless pursuit of success.

13:30 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
The Courtier

In this segment, we delved into the depths of Renaissance literature with a discussion on The Book of the Courtier by Baldassare Castiglione, a classic that has piqued the interest of readers for centuries. Steve embarked on this literary journey over the summer, while David revisited the text, having been familiar with its nuances from previous reads.

David introduced the book as a sophisticated leap from Machiavelli's The Prince, suggesting it as a more intricate exploration of navigating the corridors of power. However, as Steve navigated through the dialogues of aristocrats debating over several evenings, his initial intrigue gave way to frustration. The debates, lacking in evidence or strong argumentation, reminded Steve of baseless talkback radio calls, where confidence often overshadows substance.

The crux of their discussion focused on a passage where Lord Gaspare Pallavicino challenges the notion of nobility of birth being essential for a courtier. This debate within the book highlights the arbitrary nature of social status and the role of fortune in elevating or diminishing individuals, irrespective of their virtues or origins.

Steve expressed his frustration, feeling disconnected from the aristocratic banter, which seemed detached from practical wisdom or empirical evidence. David, on the other hand, appreciated the book's underlying message about the importance of understanding and advising within the context of one's audience, especially when that audience operates within a significantly different social or economic sphere.

David's perspective sheds light on the essence of Castiglione's work: the art of effective counsel lies not in imposing one's ideas but in tailoring advice to the client's world. This approach resonates with both their professional experiences, underscoring the importance of empathy, contextual understanding, and the ability to facilitate decisions without imposing embarrassment or disrespect.

21:30 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Email Deliverability

In a world where digital communication is paramount, a new challenge has emerged that could significantly impact the flow of emails from and to your website. Imagine waking up one morning to find that none of your emails are being sent or received. This isn't just a hypothetical scenario; it's a real problem that businesses around the globe started facing in February 2024 due to heightened email deliverability standards introduced by giants like Google and Yahoo.

You might think your business doesn't rely heavily on Gmail, but consider this: out of approximately five billion email accounts worldwide, over one and a half billion are with Gmail, not to mention the quarter of a billion using Yahoo. Rumours are swirling that Apple and Outlook are planning to adopt similar standards, though no firm deadline has been set. This shift requires immediate attention and action to ensure your business communications remain uninterrupted.

Our tech guru, David Murrin, joined us to explain how, for years, the rules governing email delivery have been surprisingly lax, allowing for a wide range of spam and phishing attempts to flood our inboxes. The recent changes are an attempt to curb these practices by tightening the authentication and verification processes for sending emails. Essentially, it's about making sure that emails purportedly from your business are genuinely from you and not an impersonator.

Addressing this issue involves setting up specific records and systems around your business's domain names. This ensures that emails sent from any platform on your behalf – whether it be your personal computer, your CRM, or even a form on your website – are recognised as legitimate. It's akin to ensuring the sender's address on the back of an envelope is accurate and verifiable before it reaches the recipient.

Taking Action

To navigate these changes effectively, two key services can safeguard your email deliverability:

One-time Setup: A comprehensive review and setup of the necessary records for your domain to meet the new standards. This service, priced at $250 plus GST, is a critical first step in ensuring your emails continue to reach their intended recipients.

Email Guardian Service: For ongoing protection, this service, available for around seven dollars a month, utilizes a third-party system designed to enhance email deliverability. It's a proactive measure to prevent your business's emails from being caught in spam filters or rejected due to shared server issues common in shared hosting environments.

Why This Matters

In shared hosting, your website resides on a server with potentially thousands of other sites. If one of those sites behaves maliciously, it can affect the deliverability of emails from the entire server. Utilising a third-party email service isolates your communications, ensuring that your business's emails are judged on their own merits rather than being tarnished by the actions of others.

While our focus is not on selling, the urgency and importance of adapting to these email deliverability standards cannot be overstated. Ensuring your business's emails reach their destination is crucial for maintaining your operations, reputation, and customer relationships. Taking action now can prevent significant disruptions and potential losses.

28:06 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Chris Anderson And Kindness Beating Nastiness Online

This segment starts with Steve's discovery of a particularly enlightening conversation on Sam Harris's podcast, Making Sense.

Chris Anderson, the curator of TED and former editor of Wired Magazine, shared his thoughts with Harris in a compelling dialogue that veered into the impact of social media on our collective psyche. Anderson's perspective, shaped by his encounters with both the ephemeral and the enduring on platforms like TikTok, sheds light on a fascinating dichotomy: the transient nature of negative trends versus the lasting legacy of positive viral content.

Consider the trend where privileged youths frivolously waste food for social media clout—a stark contrast to actions that genuinely enrich the human experience. The story of Milad Merg is particularly poignant. Inspired by the altruism of influencers like Mr. Beast, Milad, a humble sandwich shop worker, turned the wasteful trend on its head. By crafting sandwiches to distribute among the needy, his act of kindness reached over 400 million viewers, outshining the frivolous acts it aimed to counteract. This example underscores a fundamental truth: positive actions, though challenging to propagate, leave a deeper, more lasting imprint on our collective consciousness.

This brings us to a critical reflection on our responsibility as content creators and consumers. Negative stimuli may grab our attention momentarily, but it's the positive, constructive narratives that truly resonate and endure. The challenge, however, lies in our willingness to invest the effort required to elevate these narratives above the cacophony of negativity that often dominates our digital landscapes.

The transformation of negative to positive is not just about content; it's about altering perceptions and inspiring action. A striking example of this is the story of a blind man whose plight was rendered invisible to passersby until a simple change in his sign's message sparked a wave of generosity. This transformation from indifference to empathy illustrates the power of perspective and the potential for profound impact through thoughtful communication.

Yet, we must confront the reality that our increasingly digital lives may be diminishing our situational awareness and capacity for empathy. The irony is stark: engrossed in our devices, we become blind to the world around us, mirroring the very condition of those we scroll past without a second glance. This detachment challenges us to reconsider not just how we consume content but how we engage with the world itself.

In a hopeful twist, initiatives like the BBC's HappyPod offer a beacon of positivity amidst the often grim landscape of global news. By dedicating space to uplifting stories, these efforts remind us that good news is not only worthy of our attention but essential for nurturing a more compassionate and understanding world.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this bonus episode of "Talking About Marketing", Steve Davis and David Olney list and briefly discuss their Top 5 books of 2023 for you to consider reading as we head into 2024.

They also list the Top 5 most read marketing blogs of 2023 and the Top 7 most listened to episodes of Talking About Marketing, just in case you missed one that's proven popular with other listeners.

Have a Happy, Productive, and Thoughtful New Year!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:03 Top 5 Books of 2023 This is Steve and David's list
The Books That Affected Us The Most In 2023

1. The Expectation Effect by David Robson
2. Change Your Questions Change Your Life by Marilee Adams 4th edition
3. Oscar: A Life by Matthew Sturgis
4. You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, 2nd Edition, Dave Mattson (David Sandler)
5. This Is Marketing by Seth Godin

David's extras

• The Book of the Courtier by Baldassare Castiglione
• Feeling and Knowing: Making Minds Conscious by Antonio Damasio
• You Are What You Believe: Simple Steps to Transform Your Life by Hyrum W Smith

Steve's extras

• The Status Game by Will Storr
• Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence by Dr. Anna Lembke
• Anna Karenina by Tolstoy, audiobook read by Maggie Gyllenhaal
• Quarterly Essay: The Great Divide - Australia's Housing Mess And How To Fix It, by Alan Kohler

23:05 Top 5 Marketing Blog Articles Of 2023 These are the most read blogs on our site this year.
Top 5 Marketing Blog Posts Of 2023

1. How to humblebrag on LinkedIn Like A Pro (If you Want To)
2. 3 Updated Reasons For Using Odd Numbered Lists In Your Blog Post Titles
3. A Marketer's Christmas Message Written With ChatGPT
4. Kindness In Business A Pathway To Profit And Happiness
5. AirBnB Does Not Want Us Staying On Eyre Peninsula This Holiday Season

26:03 Top 5-ish Marketing Podcast Episodes Of 2023 These are the episodes you listened to the most in 2023.
Top 5 Marketing Podcast Episodes Of 2023

1. The Road Less Stupid Talking About Marketing Apr 25, 2023
2. Understanding The Meganet Talking About Marketing Jun 20, 2023
3. Belonging To The Brand Talking About Marketing Mar 14, 2023
4. Finding Your Story To Tell Talking About Marketing Sep 6, 2022
5. Social Media And The Shareworthy Case Of Digital Fatigue Talking About Marketing Oct 3, 2023
6. The Slot Machine Of Human Status Talking About Marketing Oct 31, 2023
7. What Sunglasses Would Heroes Wear? Talking About Marketing Mar 28, 2023
8. Words To Make The World Do Your Bidding Talking About Marketing Dec 25, 2022

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the latest episode of "Talking About Marketing" with Steve Davis and David Olney, we explore the intersection of art, leadership, and AI in the modern business world. Our special guest, David Gauci, a veteran in the theatre scene and founder of Davine Productions, shares insights on finding one's unique voice in the performing arts and beyond. This is a must-listen for anyone seeking to carve out a distinctive identity in today's crowded digital landscape.

The episode delves into "Paradoxical Leadership" from Ivo Brughmans' book, offering a critical perspective on leadership principles that can be applied in business. While acknowledging the book's insights, David Olney provides a nuanced critique, emphasizing the importance of context in understanding these concepts.

A particularly engaging segment discusses the role of AI in our lives. As we increasingly turn to AI for advice and decision-making, Steve and David ponder the implications for our humanity and professional judgment. This conversation is essential for leaders and small business owners navigating the evolving landscape of AI and technology.

Finally, the episode wraps up with insights from the Sandler Selling System, providing practical tips on integrating these sales strategies into your business and personal growth. The episode is a blend of thought-provoking discussions and actionable advice, perfect for those looking to stay ahead in a rapidly changing world. Don't miss this insightful journey into creativity, leadership, and the role of AI in modern business.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:29 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Be Your Quirky Self

In 2013, the same year Steve began his award-winning podcast, The Adelaide Show, David Gauci put his roots down in Adelaide and started the theatre company, Davine Productions. Prior to this and alongside this, he has had a 25+ year career in professional theatre, as well as being a teacher to countless performers in a number of colleges and institutions including the University of Adelaide Elder Conservatorium.

In a recent interview with David, Steve asked about the guidance David gives new musical theatre actors about how to find their voice and his answer is useful to all of us.

In the conversation that ensues between Steve and David Olney, our David makes the point that in this social media age where people mouth slogans like "be yourself" and "be authentic online", it's important to remember that it is rarely appropriate for us to ever be fully ourselves in all social interactions.

You can hear Steve's full interview with David Gauci here: 385 – Davine Intervention In Adelaide Theatre.

08:28 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Paradoxical Leadership

David just finished listening to the book, Paradoxical Leadership: How to Make Complexity an Advantage, by Ivo Brughmans.

Unlike every other book we've discussed on Talking About Marketing, this is one that David does not heartily recommend, despite conceding that it does raise awareness of some important principles.

As you'll hear in the discussion, David thinks the concepts in this book are good but the way the ideas are expressed is suboptimal. Listen to the podcast for more context.

15:30 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Should We Confide In AI?

Us humans are pretty bad and stopping our natural inclination to anthropomorphise, which means, to imbue things with a sense of being human. For example, if you chat to your pet in human terms and imagine it having human needs and expectations, you are anthropomorphising.

And when something can talk back to us, like a parrot or an AI tool, we are suckers for anthropomorphising.

The danger with AI tools, in particular, is that they don't really know what they're saying. They're primarily using a stack of complex calculations, based on countless conversations they've been fed, to take an "educated guess" at what combination of words or sentences would make the most sense, given the questions we've asked it.

Steve and David discuss what problems might arise as more AI therapists come online and as more professionals turn to AI tools to ask for opinions on what to do next.

Does this diminish our humanity? Do the risks outweigh the rewards? It all depends on our discernment.

21:06 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Sandler Sales Submarine Summary

Each Perspicacity segment this series, focussed on one part of the Sandler Selling System. And this time, it is our summary of the discussion with some suggestions about how to incorporate these principles into your life and work.

In summary of this season's conversations, we do heartily recommend David Sandler's excellent book, You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, Second Edition.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this blockbuster episode of the Talking About Marketing Podcast, Steve and David Olney delve into the intriguing world of mind-changing strategies and powerful principles for business success, drawing inspiration from an unusual source: Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Titled What Would Arnold Schwarzenegger Do?, this episode embarks on a journey through David McRaney's enlightening book, How Minds Change. The discussion explores a novel technique to pause and reconsider during heated debates, a moment termed "um well", inspired by McRaney's podcast, You Are Not So Smart.

The conversation then sails through Schwarzenegger's latest book, Be Useful: Seven Tools for Life, a treasure trove of life lessons and entertaining anecdotes. Schwarzenegger’s take on the classic self-help formula of see, believe, achieve is examined, revealing a crucial missing link for attaining goals.

The episode doesn't just stop there. It also tackles practical business principles, answers pressing tech questions like the timing of iOS updates, and shares insights from the Sandler Selling System, particularly focusing on the post-sell stage.

Join Steve and David in this thought-provoking episode as they weave together psychology, celebrity insights, and pragmatic business advice, offering listeners a unique blend of entertainment and enlightenment.

PS If you're curious about AI or feeling like you're addicted, take our short introductory course to tame the beast. Use the code NOV23WOOF to get it for $29 instead of $49 during November 2023. AI Obedience School.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:11 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
How Minds Change

David McRaney has written a great book, How Minds Change. And in this segment, we're looking at a little hack for getting an "opponent" to stop and think when arguing with you.

When we are confronted with something we disagree with, our mind throws up reactants; these are arguments against the new information to justify what we hold true.

Often, that is lazy thinking and/or debate-style, reactive thinking in which you are on guard against your position being challenged.

But in his book, McRaney canvasses ways to counter this process and shares a simple technique, which he discusses on his own podcast, You Are Not So Smart (recommended to us by Lisa Kennewell), episode 269.

The "um well" is a great moment when we step out of old thinking to take stock, eg, what did you think of Top Gun Maverick? Oh, 8/10. Why not 10? Hmmm, we come up with negatives. Or, why not 6? We come up with positives.

This is anchoring a conversation with someone and is worth experimenting with.

11:40 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
See. Believe. (Explain). Achieve.

David just finished listening to Arnold Schwarzenegger’s new book, Be Useful: Seven Tools for Life.

As well as being thoroughly entertaining, because it is full of great stories from his life that Schwarzenegger reads himself, the book is genuinely useful.

In particular, I liked Schwarzenegger’s discussion of the self-help adage: see, believe, achieve.

In order to achieve any goal, you have to be able to visualise what you want to do, believe that you can get it done, and then do the work to achieve your goal.

The missing link

Even though this initially sounds like a cohesive three-part strategy, Schwarzenegger points out that it is missing an especially important fourth part.

Ideally, you also need to be able to explain the significance of your vision to yourself and others, explain why you believe you can achieve it to yourself and others, and explain how you are going to break your big goal down into lots of little goals that you can chip away at one at a time, so that you can work toward achieving your ultimate goal in a manageable and structured way.

We discuss this more in the podcast.

19:44 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
To Update Or Not Update?

iOS updates, and others.

Should you be the first kid on the block to apply updates to your phone or other software?

Sometimes it pays to be cautious unless you know of a specific feature that is included, like accessibility in iOS 17 which is important for the blind community.

That said, most bigger companies have their updates working pretty smoothly these days. Steve errs on the side of applying them.

23:06 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Sandler Sales Submarine Part Seven: Post-Sell

Each Perspicacity segment this series, will focus on one part of the Sandler Selling System, this time, it's Post-Sell.

David Sandler argues you don't rush off when you win the contract. You stay and build rapport further and even give clients a chance to back out; better now than later.

Our conversation is being guided by David Sandler's excellent book, You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, Second Edition.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this seventh episode of the third series of Talking About Marketing, we start by reflecting on just what it is that holds so many of us completely helpless against the attraction of those social media channels.

Just why do we keep that phone in our hands when we have decent movies to watch or people to talk to or children to play with? Will Storr has an answer and it revolves around our dire need for status. You didn't see that coming, did you?

Plus, one of Steve's favourite marketing thinkers, Seth Godin, calls bullsh*t on the SEO business. He says, the maths just does not add up.

As sure as SEO spammers talk rubbish and lie to us, we can rest assured that hackers are continually probing our accounts to see if we have weak passwords.

Sadly, in the Problems segment, Steve refers to a client who lost access to his Facebook business page because the old hotmail account securing his personal Facebook profile was compromised. You know what Steve's going to say, don't you?

And in the Perspicacity segment, we continue our focus on David Sandler's Sales Submarine, this time the sixth compartment of Fulfillment.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:40 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Social Media Is The Slot Machine Of Human Status

Will Storr's fascinating book, Status Games, is a wonderful exploration of the great game of life; our constant search for status and connection.

When you look at life through this lens, everything makes sense.

It starts with the proximity of our smartphones. He shares statistics that claim in 2019, smartphone users checked their phones an average of 96 times a day, which is once every 10 minutes up. That figure was an increase of 20% compared to the 2017 survey. Similarly, it found that 23% of users check phones less than one minute after waking. And, Storr confesses that even on lovely walks in the country with his wife and dog, he found himself checking for his phone and then scrolling on a social media app every few mintues. The action was not even conscious!

He then talks about the influence of BJ Fogg, an American social scientist founder of Stanford University's Behavior Design Lab, formerly known as the Persuasive Technology Lab. He is one of the masterminds who helped social media companies hardwire their sites into our hunger for status.

And he points to the signs of status games everywhere online:

• Success games of the selfie takers and humble braggers
• Virtue games of the wellness gurus and digital campaigners
• Dominance games of the mobbers and cancellers

He notes that the everyday striving that once happened online, was intensified by technologists, who tweaked their rules and symbols to make the use of social media madly competitive and highly compulsive.

And his claim that social media is a slot machine of human status, is captured in a key quote we play in the episode about Fogg's insight of holding back symbols of reinforcement; it all boils down to giving us rewards BUT to make the receipt of these rewards unpredictable, just like the random tinkling of coins from a slot machine. The more we grow in anticipation of a reward, the more we do the behaviour.

From our "Person" perspective, this book should help us reflect on the games we might be caught up in and equip us with some tools for taking back control.

12:51 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
The Pyramid Scheme of SEO

In This Is Marketing by Seth Godin, his 2018 book still has some timeless insights, this time related to advertising and Search Engine Optimisation.

In short, he says the promises of SEO companies of getting you number one on Google, just don't add up.

In building up to his point, he notes more organisations run ads today than at any other time in history and this includes you, whenever you hit boost on Facebook, you become part of the ad business.

He differentiates between direct marketing and brand marketing with a simple illustration:

• If you do ads on Facebook, count clicks and measure how many convert, that's direct marketing.
• If you put up a billboard for your funeral home and hope someone books with you when a family member dies, that's brand marketing.

Seth says for the first, measure everything. For the second, you need lots of patience, you need to forget measuring, and you need to invest time to consistently engage with culture. Don't get them mixed up.

He then gets into his truth telling about SEO.

One final analogy from his book is about putting that bank robber dye into a pool vs putting it into the ocean. The former makes a big splash, the latter, nothing. He relates this to where we direct our marketing and storytelling efforts.

Listen to the discussion.

23:48 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Check Those Passwords, Yes, Even That One

There was a distress call on the weekend.

A client's old hotmail-type account, which was connected to his personal Facebook profile, was compromised. This let bad people get into his Facebook account, then take over his Page, and then start spending with his credit card.

Seriously, folks, we all need to check email passwords and turn on 2FA with anything of value, especially banking, emails, and social media.

26:04 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Sandler Sales Submarine Part Six: Fulfillment

Each Perspicacity segment this series, will focus on one part of the Sandler Selling System, this time, it's Fulfillment, or as we call it, your Presentation.

David Sandler argues that in your presentation, this is the moment when you get to display that you were listening through all the previous stages and that you can show how your solution fits the bill.

Our conversation is being guided by David Sandler's excellent book, You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, Second Edition.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this fifth episode of the third series of Talking About Marketing, we start by going back to basics with the teacher who taught David Olney how to walk with his cane.

That teacher's name is Roley Stuart, and as we'll discover, his practical, firm approach to teaching principles has helped David navigate the world with independence and confidence ever since.

In this episode, we look at what lessons the rest of us can take from Roley's wisdom.

Talking of navigating the world, being interviewed by Peter Goers can feel like that. Steve was just on ABC Adelaide to answer Peter's questions about how to relax. Yep. Wrong person on that topic. Or is he?

Still on the ABC, a friend and client flicked Steve a link to a recent radio special about Noël Coward and, Steve's going to discuss this in the Probems segment. Hmmm.

And in the Perspicacity segment, we continue our focus on David Sandler's Sales Submarine, this time the fifth compartment of Decision Makers.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:30 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
How Do You Relax?

Last episode, Steve reflected on the custom of "At Homes", as captured in the biography of Oscar Wilde. At Homes were semi formal events in which hosts made a point of being "at home" to entertain visiting guests.

Steve pledged to try to hold some of these over summer as part of another committment he made recently; a pledge to start building in some zones of relaxation into the week.

This is a wildly radical notion for a small business owner who has worked seven days a week for 20+ years. However, when his former ABC Adelaide colleague, Peter Goers, invited Steve to take part in the Thursday night segment, How Do You Relax?, it got him thinking.

In this segment, we get to hear Steve's answers while posing the questions for all of us: how do we relax and do we relax enough and well enough?

10:57 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Competence Before Confidence

In a recent blog post, Confidence Or Competence? What Comes First For Publicly Promoting Your Brand?, David Olney noted the following:

Working out how to empower people always involves building up both their confidence and competence, but deciding on which one to develop first is not always easy.

I experienced the juggling act of increasing both my competence and confidence when I was a primary school student, as I learned to move around safely with a white cane.

What I learned through experience then, and can explain now, is that basic competence is required to develop confidence, and confidence is required to enable heightened competence.

In this segment, Steve leads David deeper into this discussion, and we even hear Roley Stuart (the teacher who taught David who to move with his white cane) himself, in an excert from a full interview David conducted with him in 2021 on Blind Insights With David Olney.

19:07 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Let's Do It, Let's Share Thoughtful Things

Let's Do It, Let's Share Helpful Things is not one of Noël Coward's better known tunes. In fact, it's not one at all but Steve is still in a Noël Coward mindset, having listened to a special episode of ABC Radio's The Music Show, to mark the release of a new biography, entitled, Masquerade: The Lives Of Noël Coward.

Steve discovered this program when client and friend, Anne Johnson, sent him this note:

Hi Steve, I thought you would love this. I just listened to it on my walk and immediately thought of you, Anne.

This is mentioned in the Problems segment because it really is more of a mailbag segment and this arrived in Steve's inbox. That said, it is a problem that more of us don't do these little gestures of care that not only deepen relationships but enrich the lives of those around you, whether they are friends, clients, or both.

However, upon listening to the program, Steve did pick up on a marketing problem that related to Mr Coward, himself.

The Music Show's host, Andrew Ford, asks the author of the biography, Oliver Soden, whether our memory of Noël Coward is undermined by the range of his talents - playwright, actor, director, poet, composer, short story writer, lyricist, singer, painter, and he took dancing lessons from Fred Astaire.

We listen to and then dissect Soden's response to the age old dilemma facing people who wear more than one hat.

27:19 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Sandler Sales Submarine Part Five: Decision Makers

Each Perspicacity segment this series, will focus on one part of the Sandler Selling System, this time, it's Decision Makers.

David Sandler argues that you will risk wasting a lot of time and giving away a lot of information for free, if you don't clarify who the decision makers are before you make a sales presentation.

If you discover there are more decision makers than just the person you've been discussing things with, then David and Steve suggest you need to go back and revisit the earlier sections of the Sandler Submarine so that they apply to this new information and new audience.

If you can't get this clarity, it might will be time to surface and travel on to your next prospect.

Our conversation is being guided by David Sandler's excellent book, You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, Second Edition.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this fifth episode of the third series of Talking About Marketing, we focus on some sobering insights from the world of social media.

They come from one of Steve's LinkedIn contact, Jessamyn Hayden McLachlan from Felt Brand Stories, in the wake of the Adelaide Hills Winter Reds festival.

In the Perspicacity segment, we continue our focus on David Sandler's Sales Submarine, this time the fourth compartment of Budget.

In Problems, we share a question from long time client, Donald Kay, about getting momentum for an item that's been on the To Do list too long.

But first, we go back to the days when social networking took place face to face, with our last visit from Oscar Wilde and his "At Home" afternoons.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:22 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
At Home With Oscar Wilde

Matthew Sturgis's biography of Oscar Wilde yields one more tidbit worthy of discussion and it relates to the practice of "At Homes".

"At Homes" were invitiations to visit people for conversation at appointed hours. In Oscar's life, his first experience was with his mother, Lady Wilde’s, Saturday afternoon "At Homes" in the 1870s and 1880s.

Later, when Oscar and his wife, Constance, set up their married life at their place in Tite Street, Constance’s biography shows she set up on the "at home" circuit, where WB Yeats was a regular guest. It's been noted that these functions were more like a public performance than chatting with friends.

And that's why it's a good discussion point in the Person segment. Do we, as business owners or leaders, dedicate enough time to social interaction?

12:10 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Social Media Not Working Well? Maybe It's Digital Fatigue

Just after the Adelaide Hills Winter Reds weekend, earlier this year, Jessamyn Hayden McLachlan, from Felt Brand Stories, opined publicly on LinkedIn about her observations about the performance of social media marketing for the event, after eight years at the helm.

Firstly, she noted it had been "much tougher to cut through than previous years with reach down (although started to observe this trend in 2022), Facebooks Ads a necessary part of the mix and the more reels in the content mix, the better! (Read fun, but extremely time intensive, content to create. Probably more time intensive than those not doing this job realise). #videofirst"

This prompted her to note that digital fatigue is not only real, but increasing across social media, with people less likely to engage because they're tired.

Secondly, she argued that marketers should understand that we need to be as active as we can but not to "sell". Instead, she said social media has become a place "for reference and research ... to book mark and remind ... to answer questions and pique curiosity."

David and Steve pick up the conversation and shared their thoughts.

David made some points about the storytelling of Winter Reds, prompting Steve to link the conversation to some insights from neuromarketing experts, Prince Ghuman and Matt Johnson.

On episode 225 of the podcast, You Are Not So Smart, which had been recommended by client and friend, Lisa Kennewell, the authors argued that we don't focus on the specific elements of a product, service, or event, but rather on their "hidden soul".

The guys go into some of their stories about the story behind a Pinot Noir and the surprising value of a piece of Banksy art which was shredded immediately after being auctioned, surprisingly increasing in value.

Enjoy the conversation.

24:39 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
How Do You Budge Things Off Your To Do List

When Steve emailed friend and client, Donald Kay from Donalan, recently, he was enquiring about whether or not Donald was stuck on something regarding his new website.

The Talked About Marketing team created a new, draft website in February, and Donald was going to go through the information to check if it was all relevant and add/suggest any changes. It was now September.

Donald wrote back: "The website may be the topic of a future podcast if you have the answer or you can find some one with the answer. How can something be on the top of the to do list for so long but still not get done?"

David and Steve discuss this and come up with a few answers, including an upcoming change to our own internal processes.

29:38 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Sandler Sales Submarine Part Four: Budget

Each Perspicacity segment this series, will focus on one part of the Sandler Selling System, this time it's Budget.

David Sandler argues understanding the budget your client has to work with is crucial for a successful sales process (or strategic moving on to other prospects).

David and Steve discuss some of the tactics David Sandler crafted.

Monkey paw, anybody?

Our conversation is being guided by David Sandler's excellent book, You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, Second Edition

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this fourth episode of the third series of Talking About Marketing, we start with some glittering insights from the world of Barbie.

Yes, Barbie is a toy but some of the principles raised in the blockbuster movie give pause for thought.

In the Principles segment, Oscar Wilde returns with the mystery of a Green Carnation in his lapel. Yes, this links to our wish to create marketing worth talking about today.

Dear client, Belle Baker, surprises Steve and David with a photo taken from a hotel toilet.

And in the Perspicacity segment, we continue our focus on David Sandler's Sales Submarine, this time the third compartment of Pain.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:50 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
Everything's Perfect, Right?

The record-breaking movie, Barbie, opens with a bright pink scene, saturated in optimism, in which Barbie is overwhelmed by how perfect everything is, again.

Just like her toy namesake, though, there's a sense of "plastic" about this state of affairs and we are alerted to the fact that the happy bubble is about to burst.

There is much to explore with this topic of perfectionism, so click play to see what David and Steve are going to serve up just like Ken in his tennis whites!

13:18 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
What's With The Green Carnations?

Oscar Wilde went viral in late 19th Century London, through a little prank that had florists struggling to keep up with demand.

Ahead of opening night of his play, Lady Windamere's Fan, Oscar is struck by a cheeky idea; he and his party will all wear green carnations in their button holes, just as the lead character does.

What was the significance of this?

Absolutely nothing, with a side order of annoying the general public because that's how the general public likes to be.

David and Steve discuss the psychology and mechanics of germinating viral content, inspired once again by Matthew Sturgis' brilliant and exhaustive biography of Oscar Wilde, entitled, Oscar, read artfully by Jot Davies.

If you're contemplating getting "talked about", maybe you should ask, what would Oscar do? Although, do so with plenty of nuance because society today is not an apples to apples comparison with London of that era.

25:16 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Who Ordered The Fish In Cubicle 2?

When one of our wonderful clients, Belle Baker, went to "powder her nose" in the Ladies at the Parkside Hotel recently, she had to send Steve a photograph.

That's because the advertising on the back of the cubicle door was delishly cheeky.

Steve and David flush out the insights of the Place in which advertising is seen.

28:43 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Sandler Sales Submarine Part Three: Pain

Each Perspicacity segment this series, will focus on one part of the Sandler Selling System, Up-Front Contract.

David Sandler argues understanding the pain your potential customer or client is feeling, and communicating that knowledge back to them, is crucial for ensuring a sale can ever take place.

No pain, no sale. It's as simple as that.

Or is it?

David shares his extra twise on this advice.

Our conversation is being guided by David Sandler's excellent book, You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, Second Edition.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this third episode of the third series of Talking About Marketing, we start with the first of three insights from the new biography of Oscar Wilde entitled, Oscar. His reflection towards the end of his time in Reading Gaol that his life will now be dedicated to tragedy, offers the artistic version of something shared by one of our clients, Emanuel from Flinders Run Wines.

In the Principles segment, we glean insights about how to prepare ourselves to connect with our communities through the wisdom of author, Owen Eastwood. Owen spoke to Steve recently, for the 10th birthday of his community-based podcast, The Adelaide Show.

In our mailbag segment, Steve has a confession to share. He's recently paid a fine and he wants you to avoid the same fate.

Then, we continue our special secondment of the Perspicacity segment to focus on the second stage of David Sandler's Sales Submarine.

Get ready to take notes!

Talking About Marketing podcast episode notes with timecodes

01:44 Person This segment focusses on you, the person, because we believe business is personal.
A Library Of Lamentations

Matthew Sturgis' brilliant and exhaustive biography of Oscar Wilde, entitled, Oscar, which is read artfully by Jot Davies, caught Steve's attention when Oscar made a surprising declaration inside Reading Gaol.

Oscar had been jailed for two years for public indecency and the absence of books and writing paper, let alone decent food, community, and drink, had sapped his spirit of the gaiety, curiosity, and comedy he'd been known for.

He declared he would henceforth dedicate his writing to tragegy.

This passage appeared in Steve's life at the same time that Emanuel from Flinders Run Wines shared an uplifting post on LinkedIn for the benefit of other winemakers and people in the wine industry:

In business we can get bogged down worrying about the negative news we read on social media, the impacts these trying times are inflicting on the wine and related industries, but in amongst this doom and gloom there are shining stories surfacing. It's important that as a business owner you take the time to reflect on your own work and celebrate the wins, no matter the size big or small they are your wins and the result of your hard work and tenacity, pushing forward in your pursuit for success. Navigating the paths cautiously will ensure each decision you make is the appropriate one for your business and your family, and if it can't happen now, so be it. Remember we are all sailing our ships through stormy seas, and careful navigation will ensure we reach our destination.

Equally insightful was a comment by Michael Healy, National Careers Education Manager at myfuture.edu.au, during the recording of another podcast Steve hosts, Vocational Voices for the National Centre for Vocational Education Research. Michael commented that when we hear of downturns in particular industries and losses of jobs, we must remember that the figures will be based on averages. We should take heart that there will inevitably be jobs opening and careers flourishing, despite the headlines.

In this reflection, Steve and David remind all of us to be more glass half full than half empty, for our own sake and the sake of those around us.

13:42 Principles This segment focusses principles you can apply in your business today.
Belonging: The Ancient Code Of Togetherness

We have previously discussed the importance of communities for our businesses and organisations, (see or listen to Series 2 Episode 2, Belonging To The Brand) and that continues this episode, with a twist.

Performance coach and author, Owen Eastwood, has recently joined Steve for his community project, The Adelaide Show podcast, to share insights from his book, Belonging: The Ancient Code Of Togetherness, that might relate to other podcasters but also business owners and leaders.

In the book and interview, Owen explains Whakapapa (pronounced Faka-papa), a Māori idea which embodies our universal human need to belong. It represents a powerful spiritual belief - that each of us is part of an unbroken and unbreakable chain of people who share a sacred identity and culture.

You'll hear in the interview how this can help you, personally, as well as your colleagues, by discovering a deeper sense of purpose and meaning in what you do.

Steve recently explored this in a blog post, What’s The Point In Belonging To The Brand?

Have a listen to this exploration of how we can take Owen's principles and theories and apply them to our businesses and organisations.

28:59 Problems This segment answers questions we've received from clients or listeners.
Check Copyright Of Photos

Steve was taken by surprise when he got a fine for use of a background image in one of his Adelaide Show videos about theatre.

He is a stickler for only using his own photos or those from sites that have licensed them, but he obviously had a lapse of judgement a few years ago.

The interesting thing is that rights holders are now using AI to scan the internet and discover where their images are being used, which they should.

The lesson here is to remain vigilant. Use your own photos where possible and stock images when you've paid for them or received express permission from the terms and conditions on the website.

The initial request was for $1400 but Steve asked for it to be reviewed and it was recategorised differently, dropping the fine to just over $700.

Homework: Check any images you have used online that you might have "just grabbed off the internet" and replace them with valid images immediately.

32:09 Perspicacity This segment is designed to sharpen our thinking by reflecting on a case study from the past.
Sandler Sales Submarine Part Two: Up-Front Contract

Each Perspicacity segment this series, will focus on one part of the Sandler Selling System, Up-Front Contract.

David Sandler argues this is crucial because whenever humans typically gather, there is an agenda, so people know what to expect, from major meetings to baseball games. However, salespeople and prospects don't tend to do this, or they do it poorly.

His argument is to get clear on what expectations should be.

Our conversation is being guided by David Sandler's excellent book, You Can't Teach A Kid To Ride A Bike At A Seminar, Second Edition.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.