Talking Under Water

By Endeavor Business MediaBusiness

Talking Under Water episodes

June 26 Collaborating for a Sustainable Future: Insights from AWWA ACE26
In this episode Talking Under Water co-hosts Bob Crossen and Mandy Crispin discuss key insights and takeaways from the AWWA ACE26 conference, including affordability challenges, PFAS treatment and regulation, data center demands, and the evolving role of collaboration across the water sector.
Recording from Washington, D.C., the hosts share firsthand experiences from sessions, interviews, and conversations across the event. They highlight a powerful keynote framing this moment as “water’s moonshot,” emphasizing the urgency and scale of challenges facing utilities today. Central to the discussion is the growing tension between maintaining affordable rates and funding essential infrastructure upgrades.
The episode dives into PFAS as a persistent and complicated issue, touching on treatment technologies, regulatory uncertainty, and liability concerns tied to disposal. The conversation expands to emerging contaminants like microplastics and the broader need to address pollution further upstream.
They also explore how data centers are reshaping water demand, particularly at the local level, and why utilities must engage early in siting and partnership discussions. Across topics, a recurring theme emerges: collaboration — whether through new project delivery models, public-private partnerships, or policy innovation — is critical to navigating today’s interconnected challenges and preparing for the future.
Show notes:
AWWA ACE26 Show Coverage Landing Page (to be updated on an ongoing basis — bookmark and come back for more show coverage)
Wastewater Digest Top Projects Nomination Form
WaterWorld Top Projects Nomination Form
Stormwater Solutions Top Projects Nomination Form
PFAS Crossword Puzzle
Key moments:
00:00 – Introduction
01:03 – “Water’s Moon Moment” Keynote
03:43 – Affordability vs. Infrastructure Crisis
07:01 – PFAS Complexity & Industry Overload
12:03 – Emerging Contaminants & Regulatory Questions
20:32 – Data Centers & Localized Water Demand
44:59 – Housekeeping
About the podcast
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Storm Water Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media.
47 min
June 12 Confidence You Can Measure: What Utilities Should Expect from Modern Metering
In this sponsored interview, Editorial Director Bob Crossen sits down with Blake Michal from Kamstrup to discuss what a decade of AMI performance can teach utilities about reliability, cost, and lifecycle value.
About the Podcast  
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Stormwater Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.  
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media. 
15 min
June 11 Revolutionizing Water Management: The Circular Water Economy
In this episode Talking Under Water co-host Bob Crossen speaks with Krishna Prashanth, global product line manager for electromagnetic flow meters and global segment manager for water and wastewater instrumentation at ABB, about the promise and practicality of the circular water economy.
Prashanth explains how the concept shifts water management away from a linear take-treat-discharge model and toward a system focused on reducing losses, reusing water, recovering resources and extending the value of every drop. He outlines the “six Rs” — reduce, reuse, recycle, reclaim, recover and restore — and argues that utilities must evolve from operators of pipes and plants into stewards of local water loops.
The conversation also explores the critical role of data capture, monitoring and analysis in making circularity possible, from identifying leaks and managing demand to improving reuse decisions and predicting infrastructure issues. Prashanth and Crossen discuss how AI can strengthen these efforts when paired with trusted instrumentation, as well as the barriers standing in the way, including regulatory silos, misaligned incentives and aging infrastructure.
Together, they paint a picture of a more resilient, efficient and resource-aware future for water utilities.
Show notes:
Wastewater Digest Top Projects Nomination Form
WaterWorld Top Projects Nomination Form
Stormwater Solutions Top Projects Nomination Form
PFAS Crossword Puzzle
Key moments:
00:00 – Introduction
02:14 – What the circular water economy actually means
05:29 – The six Rs that could reshape water management
11:15 – Why utilities need a new role
13:21 – The data foundation behind circular water
18:17 – Where AI fits — and where it doesn’t
28:23 – Housekeeping
About the podcast
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Storm Water Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media.
30 min
May 29EPA Advances PFAS Regulations and Funding for Water Safety
In this episode Talking Under Water co-hosts discuss EPA’s latest PFAS regulatory moves, major new federal funding for drinking water and lead service line replacement, and stormwater-related investments aimed at protecting coastal water quality. The episode opens with a breakdown of EPA’s proposal to maintain drinking water standards for PFOA and PFOS while reconsidering standards for several other PFAS compounds, alongside a potential compliance extension that could give some utilities until 2031 to meet federal limits. The hosts also examine EPA’s increasing focus on PFAS destruction technologies, nearly $946 million in emerging contaminants funding, and what those developments mean for utilities trying to balance treatment costs, planning, and compliance pressure.
The conversation then shifts to the legal and financial risks surrounding PFAS liability, including how CERCLA and RCRA apply to utilities, what EPA’s enforcement discretion does and does not protect against, and why water sector groups are pushing for permanent legislative safeguards. Later, the episode highlights nearly $2.9 billion in lead service line replacement funding and closes with stormwater and coastal water quality news, including federal beach monitoring grants and resilience planning underway in Sullivan’s Island, South Carolina.
Show notes:
Administrator Zeldin Makes Major PFAS Announcement and Hosts Roundtable with Secretary Kennedy
EPA History: Superfund
Federal Environmental Liability under CERCLA and RCRA
Report finds 61% of U.S. beaches experienced unsafe contamination levels in 2024
EPA announces $9.75 million in BEACH Act funding for water quality monitoring
Sullivan's Island resilience plan pairs gray infrastructure with green solutions for 2050
Key moments:
00:00 – Introduction
01:16 – EPA PFAS actions overview
02:16 – Proposed PFAS compliance extension to 2031
03:31 – Shift toward PFAS destruction technologies
04:39 – $945.7 million in emerging contaminants funding
06:13 – EPA outreach for small and disadvantaged systems
07:02 – $2.9 billion for lead service line replacement
08:34 – Lead funding declines slightly from prior year
09:02 – PFAS liability discussion begins
10:20 – RCRA and CERCLA explainer
13:05 – Why utilities face PFAS liability risk
14:03 – EPA enforcement discretion
16:48 – Legislative safe harbor push
17:45 – Deeper PRP liability implications
19:32 – Atlantic Richfield case walkthrough
23:22 – Limits of current liability protections
25:17 – Stormwater and coastal water quality segment
25:30 – EPA beach water quality grants
26:22 – Safer swimming report findings
27:12 – Sullivan’s Island resilience planning
28:11 – Housekeeping
About the podcast
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Storm Water Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media.
31 min
May 15Digital tools are changing how water utilities handle flooding
In this episode of Talking Underwater, Stormwater Solutions Head of Content Sarah Kominek speaks with Manuel Parra of Xylem Vue about how digital tools are changing the way municipalities prepare for and respond to flooding. The conversation explores how communities can use existing infrastructure more effectively, why high-quality data matters as much as data collection, and how predictive analytics, modeling, and AI can support faster, smarter decisions during wet weather events. Parra also shares real-world examples from Houston and Buffalo to show how practical, scalable flood-control technology can help reduce risk, improve operations, and protect lives.
Key Moments
00:00 - Episode introduction and overview of why flood prediction is becoming more urgent
01:54 - How digital flood-control applications help municipalities respond to severe weather events
03:11 - Tools emergency managers use today, from sensors and rain gauges to models and AI
04:24 - Why data quality, not just data quantity, is critical for effective flood response
06:25 - Houston example: underpass flood detection and public alerts using existing infrastructure
08:05 - Buffalo example: preemptive system management that helped reduce combined sewer overflows
10:12 - What integrating digital technology with existing stormwater infrastructure looks like in practice
11:35 - The role of predictive analytics and AI in supporting operator decisions
13:16 - How climate variability changes the baseline and why models must keep evolving
14:32 - Regulatory and liability considerations tied to better infrastructure management
15:34 - How smaller or under-resourced communities can adopt lower-cost, right-sized solutions
17:34 - Typical lead times for flood prediction and why every minute counts
18:35 - Final takeaway: flood technology does not have to be overly complex to make a major impact
About the Podcast  
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Stormwater Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.  
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media. 
22 min
May 01 Microplastics, Infrastructure Failures, and Stormwater News
In this episode Talking Under Water the co-hosts discuss the addition of microplastics to the EPA’s Sixth Contaminant Candidate List (CCL6), enforcement fallout from the Potomac interceptor sewer collapse, industrial wastewater sampling tied to a Tesla facility in Texas, and recent stormwater headlines across the U.S.
Show notes
How EPA Regulates Drinking Water Contaminants
CCL 6 Frequent Questions
Drinking Water Contaminant Candidate List 6-Draft
Drinking Water Contaminant Candidate List 6 (CCL 6) Docket Folder
Water Research Foundation Project 5155 (Consumer messaging guidance, microplastics)
Understanding microplastics in water: Fact vs. fiction (Brent Alspach video interview)
WaterWorld subscription
EPA, DOJ sue DC Water over Potomac Interceptor collapse
Lab analysis details wastewater characteristics at Tesla-linked site in Texas
Poll: Which wastewater process area will you focus on this year?
Charleston seeks $4.6 million to replace flood-prone homes with rain gardens, retention ponds
Grand Canyon eases water restrictions as aging system challenges persist
L.A. County captures record 120 billion gallons of stormwater, boosting local supply
Timestamps
00:00 Cold open
00:48 Introduction
01:27 EPA/HHS joint initiative announced to address microplastics
02:13 What the CCL is and how EPA uses it
02:39 How EPA decides whether to regulate (three criteria)
04:02 Draft CCL6 overview (chemicals, microbes, and groups)
05:01 Public comment process + key deadline
05:54 STOMP program explained
09:02 Potomac interceptor collapse
11:05 Tesla-linked wastewater characteristics
13:03 Douglas County, NV stormwater utility and rate proposals
14:33 Charleston, SC buyouts + rain gardens/retention
15:34 Grand Canyon National Park water system update
16:05 LA County stormwater capture numbers
17:07 Housekeeping
About the Podcast
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Storm Water Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media.
19 min
April 17Voices from Water Week 2026: Ensuring Resilience and Affordability in Water Systems
In this episode Talking Under Water co-host Bob Crossen discusses Water Week 2026 where key figures recorded messages from the event. The episode features firsthand perspectives from water sector leaders who gathered in Washington, D.C., for the annual Water Policy Fly‑In to advocate for national water priorities.
Through voice memos from leaders at the Water Environment Federation, American Water Works Association, National Association of Clean Water Agencies, and utility representatives from across the country, listeners hear a consistent message: federal investment in water infrastructure is critical. Speakers point to concerns around declining State Revolving Fund support, the need for long‑term affordability, and the growing financial and regulatory pressures of PFAS management.
Utility leaders explain how tools like SRF loans help keep water affordable for customers, especially as infrastructure ages and compliance costs rise. Crossen also reflects on related conversations with utility directors beyond Capitol Hill, tying Water Week priorities to broader operational challenges such as biosolids management, inflow and infiltration, and emerging technology needs.
Together, these insights illustrate why coordinated advocacy and sustained federal support remain essential to the health, resilience, and affordability of water and wastewater systems nationwide.
Timestamps
00:00 – Introduction
00:21 – Water Week 2026 overview and purpose of the DC Fly‑In
00:51 – Overview of expert voice memos from WEF and AWWA
01:28 – Steve Dye (WEF) on energy, momentum, and advocacy on Capitol Hill
02:49 – Danielle Cloutier (NACWA) on record turnout and engagement with Congress
03:41 – Joint water sector priorities highlighted in the Water Week press release
03:47 – Key policy issues: infrastructure funding, PFAS, affordability, and “Do Not Flush” labels
04:53 – Cynthia Lane (AWWA) on building relationships and advancing legislation
05:59 – SRF, WIFIA, and growing funding tension for utilities
06:55 – Cynthia Lane post‑meeting recap from Capitol Hill
07:43 – Liesel Gross on infrastructure funding and PFAS
08:38 – Jason Barrett on aging infrastructure needs
09:14 – SRF funding, affordability, and economies of scale
11:07 – Connecting Water Week themes to PFAS, biosolids, and geopolitics
12:25 – Inflow and infiltration as a growing national challenge
12:44 – Emerging technologies, SCADA integration, and AI interest
13:19 – Why federal policy decisions matter for local utilities
13:53 – Closing thanks to WEF and AWWA contributors
14:12 – Housekeeping

Resources:
Use code WWD15 to get 15% off your attendee pass when you register at StormCon.com.

About the Podcast
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Storm Water Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media.
16 min
April 03The battle over Colorado River resources is brewing
In this episode Talking Under Water co-hosts discuss escalating water use restrictions in Denver, the broader legal and political fight over Colorado River allocations, and what differing conservation strategies reveal about the future of water management in the West. The conversation begins with Denver Water’s declaration of a Stage 1 drought, outlining outdoor watering limits, fines for repeat violations, and how these measures compare with long‑standing, highly structured conservation programs in Southern Nevada.
The episode then zooms out to the Colorado River basin, breaking down the growing split between upper and lower basin states, the looming possibility of Supreme Court litigation, and disagreements over delivery obligations rooted in the 1922 Colorado River Compact. The hosts explore what water scarcity could mean for cities, agriculture, and priority water rights, and why the lack of a statewide curtailment plan in Colorado raises serious questions.
In additional news, the podcast reflects on the passing of Dr. James Barnard, a pioneering figure in biological nutrient removal, and covers bipartisan federal efforts to fund advanced wastewater treatment for PFAS. The episode rounds out with updates on sediment cleanups, beach water quality monitoring, stormwater permitting debates, and ongoing concerns about affordability as utilities face increasing regulatory and infrastructure demands.
Show Notes:
Denver water restrictions expected to begin March 25 amid near-record low snowpack
Denver Water Rules for outdoor water use
Denver Water’s 2026 Water Budget Program
The Colorado River is on the brink of possible forced water cuts. One thing is certain: There will be lawyers.
Las Vegas Valley Conservation Schedule
Las Vegas Valley water waste fees and policies
Lower Colorado River Basin states agree to conserve 3 million acre-feet of water (2023)
Opposing viewpoints: what the Colorado River water allocation debate is about, and who has piped up
Water Technology
House advances BEACH Act reauthorization to strengthen water quality monitoring
EPA resumes Cuyahoga River sediment cleanup in Ohio
EPA resumes final phase of Rouge River sediment cleanup in Detroit
PFAS contamination raises new concerns in Louisiana facility's stormwater discharges
Stormwater sector pushes back as Washington targets permits: rules and affordable housing can coexist
Wastewater pioneer James Barnard dies at 90
Bipartisan bill targets funding for advanced wastewater treatment and PFAS removal
EPA seeks public input on financial capability guidance for wastewater upgrades
Timestamps:
01:23 – Denver Water declares Stage 1 drought
02:18 – Stage 1 drought rules explained
04:11 – Colorado River basin context
05:31 – The 1922 Colorado River Compact
06:51 – Lower basin conservation agreement
07:45 – States respond as litigation looms
08:41 – Nevada water conservation comparison
10:31 – Potential impacts to Colorado water users
12:12 – Agriculture vs. municipal water use debate
14:32 – Passing of Dr. James Barnard
15:22 – PFAS treatment funding proposal
16:20 – EPA affordability guidance update
17:16 – Federal water policy & cleanup updates
19:24 – PFAS contamination incident
20:09 – Stormwater permitting under scrutiny
20:44 – Housekeeping

Resources:
Use code WWD15 to get 15% off your attendee pass when you register at StormCon.com.

About the Podcast
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Storm Water Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, stormwater and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on X @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media.
23 min
March 30Different by Design: Turning 30 Years of Expertise into Utility Confidence
Utilities hold more power than they think. In this day and age, with a few taps of a keyboard, information is literally at your fingertips. For some, that’s a simple Google search, and others a query with a generative AI tool. But for those more enterprising utility leaders, operators and managers, that interaction in peer groups on Facebook, LinkedIn, Discord or other platforms.
They share best practices with each other, answer questions, provide guidance on management decisions, and it is a forum for open and honest thoughts about products in the market place. Utilities are holding vendors accountable with each other.
Bruce Bharat, regional president of the Americas for Kamstrup, has taken notice of this trend and other purchasing influences in the market. In this sponsored interview, Bob Crossen talks with him about how the Information Age has changed the way modern utilities interact with Kamstrup, why that drives innovation and how being different is a good thing.
This episode is sponsored by Kamstrup
Resources:
WaterWorld Digital Edition
SWS Digital Edition
WWD YouTube Channel
About the Podcast  
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld and Storm Water Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, point of use, point of entry, residential, storm water and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and on-site interviews with experts for WWD, WaterWorld and SWS. New episodes of the podcast are released on the third Friday of every month. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.  
Contact the Talking Under Water podcast editors by emailing [email protected] engaging with them on Twitter @TUWpodcast. Join the conversation by commenting or using the hashtag #talkingunderwaterpod on social media. 
30 min
March 20 Lifting as we climb: building trust, confidence, and future leaders in water
In this episode Talking Under Water co-host Mandy Crispin speaks with Angela Walker who is the Assistant Director of Wastewater Operations at the Brunswick‑Glynn Joint Water & Sewer Commission and one of the inspirations for this year’s Women in Water feature story.
Walker reflects on her career journey, the role her mother played in shaping her sense of responsibility and stubborn determination, and the ways her team supported her during a profound personal loss. She shares candid insights on navigating male‑dominated spaces, building trust within utility teams, and creating a culture where knowledge is shared — not guarded — through cross‑training and collaboration between operations and maintenance.
The conversation dives into systems thinking during plant upsets, staying calm under pressure, and leading with accountability instead of blame. Walker also speaks to the industry’s role in long‑term water sustainability, from water reuse potential to the challenges posed by data centers and emerging contaminants.
This episode highlights why utilities are about more than infrastructure. They’re about people, public health, and the future of water.

Show notes
Women in Water 2026
Angela G. Walker LinkedIn

Timestamps
00:00 – Introduction
01:04 – Developing technical confidence & owning your seat at the table
02:32 – Remembering her mother & early influences
04:04 – Team support, trust, and leadership culture
05:44 – Barriers for women in technical leadership
07:59 – Lifting others as we climb / Knowledge‑sharing culture
11:12 – Systems thinking & staying calm under pressure
13:45 – Public health, sustainability, and water reuse
18:26 – Closing thoughts & where to find Angela Walker
19:54 – Housekeeping

About the Podcast
Talking Under Water is the premier podcast for the water industry, including municipal water and wastewater, residential water treatment, storm water management and erosion control. It is produced in coordination between Wastewater Digest (WWD), WaterWorld (WW) and Stormwater Solutions (SWS). The podcast covers topics under the One Water movement including the municipal and industrial water and wastewater, residential, storm water and erosion control markets. Talking Under Water highlights news, trends, new technologies, industry discussions and interviews with experts across the municipal water industry. New episodes of the podcast are released every other week. Logo Images: Anatoly Tiplyashin / Romolo Tavani / stock.adobe.com.
23 min

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