The 1958 Lawyer

Gregg Garofalo is the Founding Partner at Garofalo Law Group, he has been practicing law for 20 years with a strong focus on probate matters and estate planning. Gregg talks about when it’s right to do estate planning and what are some basic estate planning one should have outright. 

Gregg also talks about estate planning if you have a special needs child, how you can maximize their benefit to give them the best care they can receive from both your estate and the government. Lastly, he talks about how estate planning must be revisited at least annually to review how it can be adjusted to changes in the family’s life, decisions, circumstances, or just life in general. 

Timestamps:

• When is a good time to consider estate planning? (7:35)
• A guardianship estate for your college kids(12:35)
• Setting up a special needs trust (14:39)
• Estate planning and COVID, Cryptocurrency, and other changes(22:35)

“It’s never early to start planning - literally, we tell parents that when your kids turn 18, they should come in and do the basic estate plan...” - Gregg Garofalo

Gregg Garofalo of Garofalo Law Group

Website: www.glgfirm.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/GreggGarofalo

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregg-garofalo/

Gregg Garofalo, Founding Partner at Garofalo Law Group

Estate Planning

Gregg has been practicing law for the past 20 years with a strong focus on probate matters and estate planning. As a father of a daughter with special needs, he is passionate about educating families on how they can achieve their estate planning goals. As a result of Gregg’s vast experience, character and devotion to clients, the families he serves can rest assured that he will do everything he can to meet all of their expectations. Gregg is frequently appointed by the Court to serve as a Guardian ad litem in Guardianship matters. He is also routinely appointed by the Court as a Special Administrator in complex probate matters.

Gregg is an active member of the legal community, where he is serving or has served in several leadership roles within the Illinois Bar Association and the Chicago Bar Association. Gregg is a past Chair of the Chicago Bar Association’s Probate Practice Committee, where he served two years as Chair. Gregg is also a past Chair of the Illinois State Bar Association’s Young Lawyers Division, a member of the Trusts & Estates Council, and starting his third term as a member of the General Assembly after taking the mandatory one year off between terms.

Gregg serves as a member of the Illinois State Bar Association’s mentor program, and a speaker in the area of probate and trusts and estates.

In addition to his passion for law, Gregg works with professional and civic organizations. Gregg has worked with the Children’s Assistance Fund and the Illinois Bar Foundation chairing their annual holiday party, which has grossed over $150,000 during his ten-year involvement. Gregg is also a Past President of the Justinian Society of Lawyers, a past board member of the Italian American Political Coalition, and a board member of the Justinian Society Children’s Endowment Fund. In addition, Gregg volunteers for the Central Illinois Sheltie Rescue.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregg-garofalo/

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

Episode Transcript:

Ron Bockstahler  0:29  

Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. Good to have you here. today. We got an outstanding guest, by the way, I'm your host, Ron inboxdollars. So my good friend, Attorney Greg Garofalo is joining us today Greg has been practicing law for more than 20 years helping families achieve their long range goals through proper estate planning Greg's a father to a daughter with special needs. So he has Insider's an insider's view and planning for a child's long term care. He also serves as a court appointed to guardianship matters in guardianship matters, and complex probate matters. God I've known Greg for 20 plus years, his activities in legal and charitable organizations are too many to mention, but he does serve in leadership roles with the Illinois Bar Association, the Chicago Bar Association, he's the chair of the CPAs, probate practice committee president or past president of the Justinian Society of lawyers. He's a board member with Justinian society, children's endowment fund, where he's helped raise a lot of money. And maybe most important of all, he's a volunteer with the central Illinois Sheltie rescue, Greg's had many, many shelties, since I've known as well kind of chat a little about that, Greg, welcome to the show.

Gregg Garofalo  1:29  

Oh, thanks, Brian. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. And Glad to be here. Thanks for the introduction. I just want to say a lot of those board member positions with ISBA and CBA. Those were a lot of those were in the past since the one board that I takes up most of my time is the board member of my family. And I say board member because I'm not the chair.

Ron Bockstahler  1:48  

Yeah, to your youngest turns four here coming up in October. Yeah, yeah. And I just started kindergarten. So yep. And become time consuming.

Gregg Garofalo  1:57  

They do. And Rebecca, Rebecca, my wife, our Rebecca systems, people that Rebecca is also aware and she practices. So it keeps us busy. It keeps me busy.

Ron Bockstahler  2:10  

So you want to talk about that raising children being and keeping your law practice going. I think it's amazing. So we're gonna get that in a minute. But let's kind of talk off a lot of people that maybe know you don't know that you started your career as an accountant, your CPA. So talk to us how you became how you kind of moved into being an attorney.

Gregg Garofalo  2:25  

So and I know this can be added around. So just for clarification, I have an accounting background accounting degree from Illinois Western University. I graduated in 1992. With the idea that I was going to be practicing as an accountant, I ended up getting the family business full time, which I've been working in ever since I was 13 years old, which was running a restaurant. And so I did that for four years before I went to law school and going to law school, I knew what I wanted to do going in, which is kind of what I wanted to do. Even as I was graduating from undergrad, I wanted to work with families, I wanted to work with small businesses. Part of that was because I came from a family that owns a small business because I felt like I can really help them and be a part of their overall team and their business. And so going into law school, I knew that I wanted to do estate planning with them with my background and tax planning for my background with taxes. I thought it was a really good fit. And I finished up my law school my JD and started working for Ernst and Young and their tax consulting department. And while working there, I went on to get my masters in tax from Chicago, Kent university or Chicago Kent College of Law. So I've got my JD in masters of tax from Kent as well and my undergrad in accounting, and I stayed with Ernst and Young for a couple years before I started to go to private practice.

Ron Bockstahler  3:40  

So let's think back What year did you start your practice are your own practice

Gregg Garofalo  3:44  

1999 2000 and graduated, I graduated my way of switching I graduated law school in 99. Got my master's degree in 2000. Worked for a firm for four years, and then I started my own practice in 2004.

Ron Bockstahler  3:57  

Okay, okay, so and then let's kind of fast forward a little bit. I think you were ahead of your time you moved to Georgia, you moved your family to Georgia while maintaining a law practice in Chicago. So let's talk about you know, how do you do law different what technology are you using? How do you make it happen? I guess that's the let's start there.

Gregg Garofalo  4:14  

Sure. So when my what my met my wife in Chicago, I met Rebecca in Chicago. She's a practicing attorney with the law school here when we got married and decided to start a family. Rebecca is from Northwest Georgia, just south of Chattanooga. So we decided to go back maybe close to her family. She's got a twin sister and two other sisters to help raise our family. And so Rebecca was working with the firm at that time as well. So we were faced with the challenge of how do we make this work, a practice that I've had in Chicago for over at that point over 12 years? How do we keep that practice and operated from Georgia and be successful? So yeah, when I started my practice, even before that, I tried to institute software and plant management software which I think helped a lot and keeping things all digital because We early on, we tried to keep our files all digital, scanning all the important documents and keeping them online. So when we decided to start to make this transition, I didn't have to have my files with me, I didn't have to be in the office because I could pull up our client management software. And at that point, probably about 70% of the documents were already scanned in the system. So if I needed something was all right there.

Ron Bockstahler  5:19  

No, I make funny a quite a bit. I call you a gate because you know, you're more of a techie than your attorney sometimes, or maybe both. I don't know. But how does someone that don't love technology like you do? How do they do it?

Gregg Garofalo  5:30  

In all honesty, if you're if you're technology adverse, all I can say is then you have to work with somebody, you have to work with a firm, you know, even like all like Amada, you'd have to work with a firm that has the experience that can guide and guide you through it, because there's just no avoiding it. And we've seen that now with COVID. I won't say his name, but you know, my next door neighbor here in my office suite who's very technology adverse and always has been as long as I've known him. And now with COVID pandemic, he said he doesn't want to come back to the office and work if he had a choice because he likes it and he likes having an ease that means he's had to step up with a lot of the technology and step into the 21st century if you would,

Ron Bockstahler  6:08  

I think he you know, an older generations, it's kind of funny, we we looked at and said, Man, if you're like over the age of 60, you're definitely going to be aching to get back to the office. But I find that that's not necessarily the case. It's the younger people that want to get back to the office, maybe for the social and the mentoring and the sex, the opportunity to grow their practice. But some of these, you know, seasoned attorneys that always love come to the opposite. Realize that, hey, it's pretty nice. I'm working, I get a lot done at home.

Gregg Garofalo  6:31  

Absolutely. I think that's completely true. My associate her she comes from a family of lawyers and her dad, his firm, they're not even back in the office at all. And her brother is the same way they're back in the office maybe two days a week and they don't know when they're going back. But you know, I can even say Yeah, I agree with Ron definitely the older generation is really starting to I say older generation 60. And older lawyers, I'm that's but the 60 year olds, yeah, they really do appreciate and are enjoying being able to work remotely. I'm finding even some of the younger workers are enjoying that as well, too. They want their day or two maybe in the office, but they they definitely like the freedom of being able to work from home as well. So

Ron Bockstahler  7:11  

I'm with them. I'm enjoying myself. Yeah, let's just jump into estate planning. Yeah, you know, I've seen a topic close to my heart. We've had Steve Sackler on recently talking about, you know, planning your future, what's the, you know, designing your life? What's it going to look like an estate planning kind of falls right into that, and most of us and most, especially attorneys don't just ignore their own state plans. So what's a good time? Let's start when do you start? What's the best time I've got, you know, six children? When do I start telling them? Hey, you need let's start focus on estate planning for you.

Gregg Garofalo  7:39  

Okay, so we You and I were talking about before, and I think we just posted something on our firm blog on our website. It's never too early to start planning. I mean, literally, we tell parents when your kids turn 18, they should come in and at least to the basic estate plan, and the basic estate planning is just powers of attorney for health care policies, Attorney for property, a basic will author HIPAA authorization, and actually each university a little bit different five, access educational records access. And, you know, apparently, how common is that really necessary. God forbid, we don't know what's coming around the corner, nobody knew what COVID was going to be like this hand with everything happening. Having that in place, if your child gets sick at school, or something happened to them, you're prepared because without these documents, these basic very easy documents, you can find yourself in probate court in front of a guardianship judge trying to make medical decisions for your son or daughter just because you didn't know I mean, he didn't think about it that that you were procrastination, you know,

Ron Bockstahler  8:37  

let me stop you real quick because I don't want to go over that what you just said records access. And I never thought about this until you'd mentioned is we're just sitting around talking recently. 18 all of a sudden my son turns 18 I can no longer access his records even if he's sitting in the hospital die. Yes,

Gregg Garofalo  8:53  

that is that is correct. So under Illinois law, you as a parent under the Illinois healthcare surrogate act can make medical decisions for him without a court or without a power of attorney but here's the here's the catch you can't get access to his record you can't say hey you know what, I want a copy of all these records but I can get a second opinion from a different hospital because you don't have that authority under the health care surrogate act you can only make medical decisions it's kind of a an odd rule that allows acts as law that never changed so you're absolutely correct once he turns 18 you can't access those records without his authorization without Of course giving you that authority.

Ron Bockstahler  9:28  

Wow. Now I know you practice in Illinois and you practicing in Georgia yet

Gregg Garofalo  9:32  

I'm not but my wife is Rebecca is and Rebecca is doing estate planning and estate administration in Georgia as well too.

Ron Bockstahler  9:39  

So are you familiar with other states? Is that a pretty common clause or is that as it just all state by state and across the board like so many other things

Gregg Garofalo  9:45  

the healthcare surrogate act it's it's there's something similar in every state. Okay,

Ron Bockstahler  9:49  

let's talk. Let's talk college kids. I know we talked about this too. Let's you know, what should we be thinking about for our kids or later in college, as far as setting up their state planning

Gregg Garofalo  9:58  

their estate planning the kids estate plan Yeah, yeah, there's there's five basic things that we tell parents and I touched on them real quick. But other schools and again, five basic things were poverty for health care, so that you have the ability to make health care decisions for your child, because like you said, once they turn 18, you want it in writing exactly the power that you have without having to get a court involved, I HIPAA authorization, which the difference between them for those who don't know, between a HIPAA authorization and the power of attorney for health care, HIPAA, we've all signed those nowadays, with going to the doctor, it just means you have access to medical records, or you're giving somebody access to your medical records. And in most instances, the power of attorney for health care will cover that. But we recommend both just it's kind of the duel across across all T's and dotting the eyes, it's better to have both of those poverty for property. And this is one where I want my, my kids don't have anything, the only thing my kids have is what I give them. So why do we need to find a property that may be true, okay, but that poverty is also going to give you authority then to if something happens, your job, pay their credit cards, get access to credit card records, maybe cancel credit cards, just stop for whatever reason, it will give you the authority to execute tax returns for your child, because at the age of 18, they need to file their own tax returns. So that's how the property is something very important, even if they don't have any money, a last will and testament. And I know that seems very morbid, but it is very unfortunate if your child gets in an accident, at college, on their way to college, or even not at college. And it's a result of an accident where their estate inherits money or receives money, your child may want to say, well look, Mom, Dad, you're all set, I don't want to give it to you. I'd rather give it just to my siblings, or I'd rather give it to this charity that I'm so passionate about or so on, etc. So a basic will is something that's very important as well. And the last document that parents don't think about and is normally not part of a parent's estate plan certainly would be the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act authorization form. And each school has its own unique form. But in essence, that's giving you the authority to access your child's records, school records, because parents like well wait, I pay for the education, can I get access to the records? Not necessarily? No.

Ron Bockstahler  12:01  

So your simple question that someone like me thinks about is I'm sending my kids out to this college and we do the enrollment and and you know, pay tuition are these things the school brings up like, Hey, here's a checklist, make sure you're covered all these things.

Gregg Garofalo  12:12  

You know, a lot of times they will bring up and I'll use the acronym, the FERPA release for the records, since that is a unique form that each school has felt that may be something that they kind of shove in front of the college students, they are assigned this at registration, but the other documents generally know generally what's a family

Ron Bockstahler  12:28  

do? Do they call someone like you and say, Hey, I'm in a bind. My kids in the hospital is in college. I can't access his records. What do I do?

Gregg Garofalo  12:35  

Right? So we sit down and we go through and we have to open up a guardianship estate. And I've had that happen a couple of times during my career.

Ron Bockstahler  12:42  

I'm most curious what so give me a ballpark something like that happens. And we're talking about the college student knew what are we talking about money just open a guardians. I know I know, attorneys don't want to talk about that. But I just want to ballpark we talked about $5,000 thing a $20,000 thing.

Gregg Garofalo  12:54  

in Cook County, in the collar counties generally you're looking at just to open it probably about $5,000. And that's not all my that's not all the attorneys fees, that's filing fees, the attorneys fees, the court usually appoints a guardian ad litem that also has to be paid from the guardianship estate. So all these fees come into play that has to be paid. And from start to finish, it's usually about 5000. And people who hide that so expensive. Or if you're coming to me, because you need to make medical decisions for your child because they're in the hospital, that's just not a regular guardianship. Now it's a temporary guardianship based on an emergency basis. So that's even more fee. So all these fees add up very quickly, because you need to start making decisions very quickly. And so it's like anything in life, we tell our clients all the time, a guardianship usually is set up as a reaction to something happening. And with the powers of attorney and sitting down and educating your children and educating parents. That's that's you're being proactive, and you're planning ahead of time. So the cost versus that. I mean, the cost to do basic estate planning for a college student of a client, we give them a discounted rate for for if they're an existing clients, I mean, could be minimal, could be 10%. It could be 20%. It could be 1000 $2,000, which is extremely less than this issue. Plus no court, no court involvement, public, private. So

Ron Bockstahler  14:13  

this is the sounds like you know, an area of law that I never even thought about, you know, sending your kid off to college is enough. But now said I should make sure that we have all these forms these documents filled out they got an estate.

Gregg Garofalo  14:22  

Yeah, that's true. Absolutely. Like I said, there is a blog, a really quick blog that goes over the five different documents that we suggest for children. So and we are doing a little webinar because we have more and more parents that have called us this year. And I think part of that is has been fueled by COVID.

Ron Bockstahler  14:39  

Let's talk about children. Let's talk about it because you've got first hand experience with the serafina What special guests actions do you need to take to make sure that you know serafina is taken care of if something were to happen. God forbid something happens to you and Becca, so it's

Gregg Garofalo  14:54  

so serafina she is going to be six in December like we talked about. She has autism and so she He's not verbal at this time. And so the prognosis for autism, medical experts don't, they can't tell you. So for us, and what we try to tell parents in similar situations is the planning should start now. I mean, you don't know what's going to happen a year, five years, 10 years down the road. And it's always to me, again, getting back to, you need to do the planning now. So you're not reactive and scrambling down the road. And so what are some of the things we do? Well, we set up you know, consider setting up a special needs trust for for your child now, and you want it to be a special needs trust, a, what we call a third party special needs trust, which is one that we create, we find and we put our money in now. And a lot of parents who said, Well, you know, I get I'm not worried about it, when when the time comes and I pass away, I'll just make sure that she gets half of the assets and the other half, go to my other daughter, whatever the case may be, but an outright gift to your child like that could disinherit them and not just in here could disqualify them from potentially getting governmental assistance or qualifying for certain government programs and make them spend down all that money first. So example, parents pass to what both parents pass away, and the other child that has special needs may inherit $200,000. And it's a direct outright gift to the child, well, that child has spent all that money down for their own care before they can qualify for any kind of governmental benefits. And the alternative set up a special needs trust, and you put it all into a special needs trust. Now that child qualifies for all the governmental benefits and whatever they don't receive from the government or whatever programs don't provide for them, the money in a special needs trust can supplement. So it's taking that $200,000 and stretching it out, hopefully, for a longer period of time to provide better care and have more assets available for your child.

Ron Bockstahler  16:41  

So is that going to be the case if the child's already receiving some kind of government assistance?

Gregg Garofalo  16:46  

Absolutely. Because if they're receiving some kind of government benefits or assistance, and you pass away, and they receive this outright gift, those those programs are usually asset and income based. And so you'll you the child will lose those benefits until the money that they received is spent down in the benefits benefits picked back up again.

Ron Bockstahler  17:02  

So Greg, does that included the insurance policy? So say there's a $5 million insurance policy the child is going to be the beneficiary of was that would that actually count towards that to spend that money down to also? Absolutely, yeah. So how do you get around that?

Gregg Garofalo  17:15  

If it goes out right to the child, then absolutely, it would be a spend down that they have to spend so how do you get around it you've just set up a trust for the child. In most situations, parents will set up in their trust distribution to the children or not outright, it's held in trust for the children and so since the children never have access to it, then they will continue to qualify for governmental benefits.

Ron Bockstahler  17:38  

So I'm going to tell you you and I never really talked about this as far as special needs special needs trust pride before serafina so is this something you had to go out? And you know, it doesn't seem to me like the normal area that if you're in state planning that you're really focused on and maybe I'm wrong with that but did you have to go out when you know when you went surfing, you found out serafina had autism and do a little more research and then that make you even better at setting these things up than the average estate planning attorney.

Gregg Garofalo  18:04  

So in my career when I was the first firm that I started working at and and why needed to do estate planning, I was kind of thrown into a state administration and guardianships pretty quickly as a practicing attorney. And so I had had a great deal of experience before serafina was born with special needs trusts and the different types of special needs trusts and qualifying for governmental benefits and you know, how do we plan to make sure we can maximize benefits all around so when serafina was born, I had a pretty good base and background in that already so we were prepared as much as you could be prepared for as a as a parent in general but as a parent with a child with special needs we were somewhat prepared for how do we plan from an estate planning perspective?

Ron Bockstahler  18:46  

Yeah, I think I look at it as having someone with first hand knowledge and understanding makes it a little more maybe a little more empathetic under when talking to a parent is kind of going through similar situation so that to me is a plus right deal with

Gregg Garofalo  18:57  

that it really is I've gotten I've got I've got a lot of clients who have come to me because they know our situation I'm I don't try to hide it. Surfing is a by opinion, a beautiful, wonderful young young girl who hopefully as a as much as possible normal life. And whatever normal is I had averse, but I don't hide what her special needs are. And so I think that openness resonates with a lot of families who are faced with the same thing because they know that I know what they're going to.

Ron Bockstahler  19:25  

Let's kind of flip back to you live in Georgia, you have a practice in Chicago, how often you're in Chicago,

Gregg Garofalo  19:30  

pre COVID. I was here every week. Post COVID or in the midst of COVID I come up maybe once a month not even maybe once every other month it just depends right now with everything still kind of in flux in the court system not completely open and everything being via zoom. There's really not much of a need to be here. Most clients enjoy zoom now you know where I thought we all thought there would be this adverse I don't want to deal with that they've really taken to it. So I think that this has worked out well for me Because it's more convenient for them, Hey, can you meet at six o'clock at night after the kids have had dinner? Sure. I don't think well, it's your house. We'll jump on zoom and I can take a call real quick and we can you know, go through stuff now.

Ron Bockstahler  20:10  

So but you're also court appointee and many guardianship matters. You do do some litigation, probate courts not back in person doing trials, Correct. Correct. So that could change things going forward. When they do assuming they'll come back. I mean,

Gregg Garofalo  20:23  

well, no, no, we're doing we're doing hearings, we're doing the hearing, guardianship and probate administration is that really generally not advert is not an adverse proceeding. So a lot of the hearings and stuff we do we can do online, but what we're not doing is we've got at least two jury trials that can't be scheduled yet. We'll contest and another one disinheritance contest, and we can't schedule it, because there's no juries that are available yet for probate matters. Okay,

Ron Bockstahler  20:49  

so that might change a little bit. So everyone's probably wondering you Okay, you live in Georgia, come Chicago, but how's your practice doing? Are you busy, like I hear so many are you kind of things tough.

Gregg Garofalo  21:00  

I mean, we're busier than we've ever been. We've, you know, as much as we were prepared for this in living down in Georgia. Now, for a little over seven years, we really started to move everything from server base to cloud base. So again, we were kind of prepared for this. It didn't matter where you live, the most far my employees took their laptops went home, and they could start working at home. But we've also tried to streamline things quite a bit from a staffing perspective as well. So we're busy, we're very busy, and the staff is very busy, but things are going things are going well.

Ron Bockstahler  21:29  

That's good to hear. You know, I'm a big proponent of changing the way laws practice in so many ways. And I you know, if anything, COVID is bad as bad, it's really accelerated some of the changes that were kind of slowly coming our way. And I think you were on the on the forefront seven years ago when you made the move.

Gregg Garofalo  21:44  

Yeah, absolutely. It definitely thrown a lot of, you know, attorneys into, okay, I got to figure out this cloud thing. What is it? You know, it's quiet, it's in the cloud, it's up in the sky, you know, can't remember that movie that that that was from but yeah, they've had to sit down and say, Okay, I don't have to understand that necessarily, but I definitely have to get on board with it, figure out how to use it.

Ron Bockstahler  22:04  

Absolutely. And I think that's we had a webinar, I think maybe under 46, the ABA guidance that came out saying, hey, you still need to understand technology, you know, you're still it's an ethical rule, you know, ties into 1.6 rule one point 60, you still got to be able to know what you're talking about and serve your clients, which means you have to understand the technology, or at least somebody in firm needs to understand it. You're still responsible, right at the end of the day. No last question. We always like to talk. First, I'll leave it to us. Anything else you want to add about probate or estate planning that we've missed on things you want to hit on?

Gregg Garofalo  22:35  

Well, you know, there's, there's a lot of new hot topics, you know, people like tell me all the time well, estate planning, Greg, it's the same, it's the same as it is today, as it was, you know, 1520 years ago, and you know, it seems it's going to be you know, five or 10 years. So I have because I often tell clients, once we do your estate plan, we should still sit down once a year and see what's changed. What's changed in your life was changes. And when they tell me Well, you know, nothing's really changed. Well, yeah, a lots changed. COVID is something that definitely changed. One thing you and I were talking about at the beginning, cryptocurrencies, cryptocurrencies are something that definitely has has changed. And I think that with clients having several of our clients investing in cryptocurrencies, it's something that we need to look at your safe plan and see how that plays into it.

Ron Bockstahler  23:17  

Yeah, that's just yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. Because I'm thinking to myself, that is not a safe investment, as a guardian actually required to have, you know, maintain safe investments. So you fought Do you have to sell that cryptocurrency? If there all of a sudden you take over

Gregg Garofalo  23:29  

that, you know, and that's exactly you pretty much hit the nail on the head on on, on the concerns that we have, as estate planners, and the challenges that trustees would have, generally speaking a the general rule and trust, it states that your trustee has to invest the funds pursuant to what we call the prudent investor rule, which just means it has to be reasonable, it can't be risky, etc, etc. We all know that cryptocurrencies are extremely volatile. So would your traditional trust actually tie the hands of the trustee to manage those assets? Or would they just be required to sell all the assets immediately, because they're too volatile, and they don't have the authority to manage those pursuant to the prudent investor rule. So it's, it's definitely something to look at. So that's interesting.

Ron Bockstahler  24:12  

And it actually gets me thinking that we recently had Steve Metro Metro financial on a webinar and talking to attorneys about how they can save more money for their retirement and shelter, their income from taxes. And one of the big things they brought up was a cash balance plan. Are you familiar with the cash balance plan? No, you can save up to 150 to $250,000 of your income each year as an attorney if you're a solo, and you know, you can if you have employees also, but also you got to contribute to their plan also, but it was really interesting to me that you can do that above and beyond a 401k plan, a five part of an IRA plan. So there's a there's definitely a way to be sheltering a lot of your money from taxes today, if you're an attorney making 500,000 a million dollars a year. You know, what just makes a lot of sense to look into that. Notice that when having Steve on the show was amazing and I'm thinking okay, if I'm doing that kind of savings, I better have a good estate plan in place right because that becomes substantial very quickly.

Gregg Garofalo  25:04  

It absolutely and you know to your point with having an investment advisor a lot of times if you have unique assets or you have an investment visor that you're very passionate about and you feel they do a great job a lot of times that's why we'll tell people then you we need to sit down to your safe plan and we need to work them into it in that maybe they'll be the investment advisor going forward even after you pass away because you feel very strong this person number one does a good job number two knows what you want you know you guys have usually with an investment advisor an attorney does your estate planning to have somewhat of an intimate relationship with because they know a lot about you and you know a lot about your finances your family makeup and things of that nature. So you know, Ron, you may say, this is the person I want to be my investment advisor for the trust for my kids after I passed away. So the only way to really ensure that is to make sure you have a good estate plan that dictates what your wishes are,

Ron Bockstahler  25:57  

it becomes more and more important so anyone listening the attorneys I know they're listening this show make sure you're getting out there talking to an estate planning attorney and getting the state in place going oh, you know, we tend not to do things for ourselves that's kind of the nature of who we are. Yeah, these things become very, very important. So definitely recommend get out there and talk to an estate planning attorney and you know, listen to Stephen Metro or guys in the financial industry to understand how you can save more money and you know, defer tax tax payments for a little bit out there. So Greg, what we just finished off of that last question, what's the one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see changed?

Gregg Garofalo  26:28  

The one thing in the legal profession I can see change taking the business side of or just anything, believe it anything

Ron Bockstahler  26:33  

I'm generally I generally focus on the business side. But if you got something other than that, bring it on. Oh,

Gregg Garofalo  26:37  

I don't know there's there's several different different things I can tell you from an estate planning. And this is going to send a really big thing, but with the way that the world is going and we've all had to adapt to the changes of technology and and working remotely. I personally don't feel like certain states have passed the rules and the laws that would really make it easier to keep up with technology as well. Illinois, for example, the notary law in Illinois, I don't think is where it should be in could be as compared to other states that makes it very difficult to do remote signings and things of that nature. So I would like to see that our legislators try to keep up with the changing times to make our practice easier, which really makes our practice easier, which makes it easier for our clients.

Ron Bockstahler  27:20  

It's interesting, you bring that up, because in many areas of law, you can actually accept the digital signature, but in estate planning, you still need to hardcopy signature you still need witnesses. So you got to get together eventually with your client at some point physically.

Gregg Garofalo  27:32  

Yes, yes.

Ron Bockstahler  27:33  

I see what you said. All right. Well, Greg, great having you on your show. Really appreciate taking the time out and look forward to talk to you down the road. Best way to reach Greg. Greg, what is your email?

Gregg Garofalo  27:41  

My email is Garofalo at GLG firm COMM

Ron Bockstahler  27:45  

And we will get that out there when we post The show also, so we'll make sure you got his contact information. Great guy to work with highly recommend Greg known for a long time. So thanks for joining us on the show today, Greg. Yeah. Thanks. great having you. And thanks for. Absolutely and thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. We'll be back in two weeks with Steve mesereau talking about you know, kind of we just brought up how you can save even more money with a cash balance plan and protect your income. Have a great day everyone.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Megan Mathias is the Founder of Lopp Mathias Law, she represents business owners with challenges relating to corporate governance, employment issues, shareholder disputes, Family Law disputes and contract issues. Megan talks about how entrepreneurial knowledge and creating a united culture is important in building a good law firm. 

She talks about how her law firm started out as a virtual service and how that benefit both the clients and lawyers. Megan also talks about how she was able to manage her time in a season where she had to juggle a lot of responsibilities. They also talk a bit about political issues that need to be addressed and some of Megan's positions on issues as a candidate for Alderman.

Timestamps:

• How it’s like to start a legal office virtually (4:03)
• Educating yourself on entrepreneurship even as a lawyer (9:03)
• Time Management techniques - delegating tasks and investing on people (13:01)
• Political philosophy and issues that must be resolved (16:54)

“It's not that I'm a superwoman although there are days I feel like I had to be a superwoman to get through that. But it's also about hiring the right people... outsourcing the things that you're not good at. I know what I'm great at. I know what I'm not great at. I'll still get it done but it may not be my hands on it.” - Megan Mathias

Megan Mathias

Website: https://www.loppmathiaslaw.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LoppMathiasLaw/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganmathias/

Megan Mathias, Founder of LOPP MATHIAS LAW 

Family Law

Bio: Megan Mathias is a fierce advocate and compassionate defender of the rights of entrepreneurs, women, children, and BIPOC. After 14 years lawyering for mid to large size law firms, becoming a Partner, and winning over $70 million in commercial and family law cases, Megan knew it was time for a change. Increasingly frustrated with the inefficiencies she saw in large law firms, and not happy with their prioritization of billable hours over-delivering value and results for her clients, Megan knew she could do much better.

She decided to create her own firm, Lopp Mathias Law, driven by her values, her standards, and her integrity. To that end, Megan created an innovative and fast-growing firm of like-minded attorneys. She incorporated state of the art technology for document automation and assembly, better billing practices and alternative fee arrangements to reduce legal fees for her clients. Driven by efficiency and effectiveness, Megan also designed her firm to provide a wide array of specialized legal services through her unique Affiliate Network without the typical law firm overhead and passes those cost savings onto her clients. She is committed to being a loyal and long-term partner for her clients, as she guides them through challenging legal periods in their lives with skill and compassion.

Megan has been recognized for her sophisticated representation in trade secret and other cases involving complex e-discovery issues and forensic analysis of electronically stored information. Megan co-chairs the Seventh Circuit Council on Data Privacy and Digital Information.

Megan is dedicated to her community. She serves on the Boards of the YWCA Metropolitan Chicago, Coalition of Women’s Initiatives in Law, FLASH (Force of Lawyers Against Sexual Harassment), and the Filament Theater. 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meganmathias/

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

Episode Transcript:

Ron Bockstahler  0:28  

Hello and welcome to the show the 1958 lawyer where we talk about the changing landscape in the legal industry. Our guest today is Megan Mathias founding partner of Mathias law. She represents business owners with challenges relating to corporate governance, employment issues, shareholder disputes, Family Law disputes and contract issues. And you're gonna have a lot of fun listening to Megan, she's got a ton of energy and she's done just a million things and we really want to find out how she does it. Also, she's an advocate for women and black indigenous and people of color. She sits on many boards, including the YWCA Metropolitan of Chicago, lifespan building, elementary school is co chair of the steering committee, state courts, small case project teams for the Seventh Circuit, electronic mess that Megan you're gonna have, tell us about that. Okay. And now she's decided she's gonna run for the 45th Ward alderman in Chicago to make where she lives a better place. Megan, welcome to the show.

Megan Mathias  1:20  

Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

Ron Bockstahler  1:22  

All right, let's get started with Where'd you come from? And how did you get to where you're at? Let's start from the beginning. Because you got to go

Megan Mathias  1:28  

from a small town in Michigan, very small Tom dirt road, even my mom still lives on the same dirt road. first generation college students sell through college at Michigan State and then came to Chicago in 2000, for law school, and obviously got through law school, and was practicing and bigger firms for a significant portion of my career. But I always one of the only females, I was one of the only females in litigation and a big firm, then I went to a smaller firm where I was one of the only female partners. And I thought, since I was, you know, higher up on this on the hierarchy, that I would have some more impact on some of the things I cared about. But it's still hard in law firms are like big institutions with their own culture and their own rules. And I'm a disrupter. So I didn't, it wasn't the same that I that I how I wanted to practice. So even the marketing people would come to me and say, we're having trouble kind of getting your message with the rest of the firm. So I compensated people differently. I ran my teams differently. I wanted to use different technology. So anyway, in 2018, I started my own practice.

Ron Bockstahler  2:33  

Let's talk about your own practice. Because in 2020, your you won an award from legal tech, what did you win? And why did you win it? And what are you doing differently?

Megan Mathias  2:40  

It's an American technology award, because I've been working on legal tech for quite some time, as I sat on the steering committee for the Seventh Circuit used to be called pilot program for ediscovery. And it is the group that helps form the rules that were adopted by most jurisdictions around the country and how you handle electronic information. So in any litigation, it's important. So of course, now photos, and everything has metadata attached to it, how you manage that in litigation is obviously really important. So that was the starting of getting involved in technology as it relates to the legal field, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, whenever that was, and then it's now like I said, when I started my own firm, we were already paperless, I started it with a completely different model business model, I compensate the lawyers differently. Like the whole, everything I do is different. And I think better and faster and more efficient and allows me to get flexibility to my clients. And you know, there were some bumps along the way, you know, I learned a lesson here or there as to you know, why the business model what the downside of some of these models are, I understand it, but I think it's worth the risk and clients know now. I mean, they know they're looking for flexibility, even big clients, they want to know that you're monitoring and you have metrics around some of your productivity and how you bill and that kind of thing. So it's been

Ron Bockstahler  3:58  

okay, so give me some let's get into the meat so it's different. What exactly are you doing different?

Megan Mathias  4:03  

So pre COVID we started in 2018. I started a paperless office, everything was virtual anyway, so my lawyers can work from anywhere. One of my struggles and bigger firms is that you have service partners, all of whom I like so I'm not talking trash about my old partners, but their job is to service the work that we the business developers bring in so there's some inefficiency there's they're pulling significant salaries that obviously impact your overhead but their job is not to go get business that was and so they're waiting there they like a specialist I was give this example is like a 409 a it's a complex tax issue that I know nothing about when to have a 409 expert you have you know person pulling a major salary and you're just have to go get the business to have this person working on it, or you I have contracts with even big firms that have specialists on the issues that I need for my clients and I can still operate full service but I don't have a couple million dollars in overhead sitting and waiting for me to bring them in. So I have some staff lawyers and but I use virtual assistants. And this was all pre COVID, virtual assistants, I use contractors, but I have contracts with them for quality standards and responsiveness and stuff like that. And then as it relates to more more complex and sophisticated issues, I have vendors, which are largely law firms and and that will handle those kind of issues. So it's a completely different business model.

Ron Bockstahler  5:24  

So when we talk about the business concept, you're using the practice management software, you're up in the cloud. So technology is kind of driving your firm, not the old school, we need 25 people sitting on staff to, you know, type a letter type thing, right, exactly. Right. Okay. Excellent. And that's working out? Well,

Megan Mathias  5:39  

it's working out well, in the bigger, more sophisticated clients really appreciate it. And they don't expect it because we're technically on paper, a small firm, but we're small but mighty, because we have, like I said, we have the full serve, we can cover any almost anything except for intellectual property speeds, and but in a sophisticated way, with the right kind of staff and a very thoughtful process. And as it relates to them, and also how we communicate with them. We have autobill technology, so it bills by the minute, so you're not getting over billed on accident with lawyers, like I think I spent 15 minutes on that kind of thing. We also have flexible billing arrangements. So because I have all these metrics, and I monitor them, I can offer flex that other firms can't because I use templating software, I can take a deal in for somebody raising, you know, capital round, and usually it's billable, but I can flat rate it, you know, 25 $40,000, and big firms are doing it an upwards of 100. And we're doing the same thing, but I use templating technology. And so it reduces my time and the cost and the clients love it. So

Ron Bockstahler  6:44  

So before you started your own firm, I think you might have did a little interview of how do I pivot to a corporate role? Right, and you will recall this. Yeah. And so you were thinking, I think at the time, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but you wanted to be in the C suite and understand, you know, let's run a business. Obviously, you started your own firm, but you know, in what you just said to me, kind of maybe this is why we like each other so much, or at least I like you I don't know if you like me or not yet, as you know, I've run a large corporation, large corporation, and then my company now not midsize firm. And I believe in outsourcing anything you are not an expert at and doesn't matter. And I think law firms, if they would understand that, they'd be so much more successful, it's too many, I'm going to say I gotta go hire an employment lawyer, I'm gonna pay him, you know, start them at 80,000 a year, because I got a client that wants to do an employment instead of going finding a firm that's an expert at it and outsourcing it to them. It sounds like that's what you're doing. So basically, I think you've got that corporate experience by starting your own firm

Megan Mathias  7:33  

I did, and what we we call it now I didn't know how to put a word on what I do. So what clients will say to me is, wow, you're really holding my hand through this, taking a company. And sometimes when they're doing a capital around or an acquisition, it completely changes how things operate. If you have a transactional relationship with your lawyer, we're just doing the task and kind of moving on, you're not a fantastic lawyer, you're getting the job done. Okay? I say this a lot. It's not rocket science, some of it, but when you're in it with your client, so we're legal plus is what we call it, we're they need more than just your legal mind, they need you helping, I can redo your policy handbook and help you with these than that. But sometimes you need someone helping you come up with the processes within your company to make it more efficient to grow to go after a certain market to you know, because I have that I'm kind of entrepreneurial mind and mentality. It's like legal plus some say like a GC General Counsel plus your CEO, because you're helping from the C suite level, talk about strategy, all kinds of things that just a regular outside counsel doesn't provide. So we've started to put a word on it, because that's what people really need. And then COVID, they have to slash so much. A lot of our clients were, you know, just trying to survive, they need you to get in the dirt with them and really dig in and figure out how to survive what's happening. And that was when we realized, and that is our superpower here. So that's really one of our main offerings.

Ron Bockstahler  8:55  

So I read somewhere maybe on track like you, did you do a talk on cash flow, or teaching people or one of your Tell us about that? Because I don't think to me attorneys really understand

Megan Mathias  9:03  

that, right? They don't. And I remember as a young lawyer being like, I need to go get my MBA. There's definitely stuff here. I don't I need to know, I didn't go get my MBA, but I

Ron Bockstahler  9:12  

learned you got it non job experience.

Megan Mathias  9:15  

Absolutely. They don't teach you anything like that in law school. And I have a business degree, but it was in marketing. So it wasn't it wasn't heavily focused on the financial. So you know, I represent a lot of small business owners too, especially when I went on my own. I started representing women and minority owned businesses and as the as its market because it's bigger firms. They trickle in, but I wanted to focus on it. And some everybody is when you're a new entrepreneur, for sure, you need help managing those kind of things. You don't you're not even aware that that's a thing and how do you get it? There's lots of ways to get through it and COVID that's on steroids. How do you manage your cash flow, I don't even know if I'm going to have any cash. So anyway, it's a skill that I have developed and learned that clients need it. They need you in the trenches with them and that includes managing cash flow. includes your people and other alternatives for or for that. So what we tell people even right now we work with people who will acquire other companies, and they may not want the legal department. So one thing we're really good at is this interim role. So they may for 1824 months not have a general counsel, and they might have five law firms, and I'm spending way too much money, it's inefficient, but they need a general counsel. So we stand up their legal department for 18 months, helping them with processes, bringing in the right technology people, we have relationships with vendors, and we can fill fill your legal department overnight if we needed to, but we can stand that up for you for 18 months while you get the right GC and you get the right, you know, structures and infrastructure in place. So that's been really great market for us.

Ron Bockstahler  10:42  

That's awesome. I mean, it's great to hear that there's for innovation that's going on, because you don't hear that a lot in the legal industry, although COVID accelerating things.

Megan Mathias  10:49  

Yeah, that sort of forced the hand. And that separated the cream from the crap as they say, I guess so. You know, we were doing trials right away on zoom, I did a trial, an international trial on zoom with the beginning of COVID. Like, like nothing. Our opponent was struggling with the process. So you know, I tell people, sometimes you went on process, sometimes you went on merit, and sometimes apparently you win if you're better than, oh, lead outs,

Ron Bockstahler  11:14  

don't let's kind of get into you've had some some challenges to say the least. You know, if you don't mind, I'd like for you to talk about some of the I mean, you've really got let's talk about even on your personal side, if you don't mind, because I want people understand this hasn't been easy. And there's a lot going on here. Yeah, there's

Megan Mathias  11:29  

a lot I mean, come coming from a family where nobody wants to college. And, you know, I tell this example to people I went to law school and was like, why don't why don't people have business cards, I never really seen people using business cards until law school. I'm out of college with two college degrees. And I was confused, like, you know, because I don't have a parent to go say, Oh, this is how you network. You know, I learned I had to learn everything on the job. So when I hire I hire for grit because I've been through things I've been divorced, I filed for bankruptcy after my divorce, I got a DUI at one point in my life, it obliterated my self confidence It took years to get and I was so worried about, you know, my family, the whole thing, all of those things, looking back, you can learn from you can take that energy and use it for good. Or you can, you know, dig yourself a hole and stay in it for a while which you know, kind of whatever we feel like everybody's doing right now with COVID. But you know, I've learned to take those experiences and those challenges and find a way to find the silver lining, learn from those mistakes and grow. And so now when I hire lawyers, I look for grit, I don't look for mistakes, necessarily, but you learn from those life experiences. And if you can use it the right way. And you really do learn from it, instead of just put it under the rug, it really does bring you a different kind of mentality to the practice of law because now you can empathize with what your clients are going through instead of just like why are they making all these dumb mistakes? Now you're like, Oh, well, because we all do and how do we help them get out of it?

Ron Bockstahler  12:57  

Can you jump into time management for us because you got so many things going on? Yeah, that's

Megan Mathias  13:01  

the thing. I have three kids, I have my law practice. I when my son My partner got sick a few years back with cancer, he was very sick for multiple years and passed away in 2019. In the middle of that I realized I needed to be closer to home. So I that's part of when I started my law firm in my neighborhood and the 45th word and, and managing my time I say to people now I don't feel busy. I felt really busy when I was taking care of my partner dying from cancer while having a three year old and a four year old and teenager and also trying to keep my law firm afloat and come up with all these new policies. I was also an elected at the time and I still am an elected local school council member for local elementary school in my neighborhood. I managed that that was time management right? You know, now I feel like I actually do feel I have the time for everything happening and it means you have to have the right team around you. It's not that I'm a superwoman although there are days I feel like oh, I had to be a superwoman to get through that. But it's also about hiring the right people like you talk about outsourcing the things that you're not good at. I know what I'm great at. I know what I'm not great at. I'll still get it done. But it might not be my hands on it. Right? So but then that's what I'm learning having the right team around you is its killer. It's the it's the way to get through everything. You might have a deal we do deals right transactions for clients, they might buy a company and want to do it in 60 days. That's, that's an undertaking, right? I have to have the right team and infrastructure for me to be able to get the client's needs done. And that applies across the board, including the kids, I became a single parent in 2019. It's a whole nother ballgame. You can't go to Walgreens because you can't get to get everybody in the car and go get it you know, some toilet paper. So you know, I've got some infrastructure around that now. And that applies professionally too. You just have to have the right team you have to invest in your team, make sure they're happy part of my law firm law firm culture is also completely different. We do team building events before COVID we were doing like escape rooms and which takes your hierarchy. And it's gone, because the people getting us out of the escape room. But believe me, it wasn't me. It's like the clerks, we got out of one of them because of a clerk, you know, a quiet clerk that was so sweet. never said a word. If he was like, backup, I got the sandal. Like, you know what, that's a nice way for you people to feel your humanity. And your team works, I think harder and more productive during the time that they're supposed to if they feel respected and taken care of. And so we care a lot about that around here.

Ron Bockstahler  15:31  

I will forget the name of the attorney. I was listening to his podcast or a podcast. It wasn't his but he's a big time personal injury attorney around the country out of Vegas, and you see his billboards everywhere. tu tu tu tu tu tu tu is his phone number. Anyway, turns out he was an Amata client when he first moved into Chicago, and I forgotten about that. But I listened to him. And I thought, you know, his father, he grew up went to prison when he was when he was five years old. And you just had a challenging life and kind of has the same the way you're talking to have grit. I want people that can just do work hard and figure it out. Right? Not gonna be the smartest person, right? And like you're saying, Go get people around you that are great. And don't act like you know, more than they do. Right? Yeah, let them do their thing. It's harder

Megan Mathias  16:09  

than it sounds. But it is, you know, that's its own skill. And sometimes you make mistakes there too. But it really does. You know, if you invest in people, it matters how they feel my I remember, as a young lawyer being told you're too nice to the staff. What are you talking about? My mom works at the fruit market. Okay, I don't treat people that, you know, like, like that we are salt of the earth people. And now I know, because in some places, the lawyers are the lawyers and the staff isn't staff. I'm not like that. I still have Thanksgiving every year with a woman that was my secretary for eight years. We are best buds is you know, it's not hierarchical like that. So I think it matters how you treat people. And that applies to my my company and my clients and the political world, especially where I live

Ron Bockstahler  16:54  

with politics. Let's talk politics, you've taken on a huge challenge. Now you're going to run for automated the 45th. Ward. Tell us about that. Let's talk a little bit about your platform. Yeah,

Megan Mathias  17:03  

like a Simon elected already. And then in the community, I do a lot of community work, I deliver food for housing and home and food insecurity families on the weekends, and we've been doing a lot of work for for many years, and the community, they've been asking me to get involved for quite some time. But I told you earlier, I had to take care of my family. Obviously, in the interim, we we've had some leadership changes that have been difficult for my community. So I stepped up in response to community, you know, essentially begging and like we need someone to get in there and, and essentially respect people's opinions. So just what I learned with my law firm over the past, whatever, 18 years, this applies to politics to we're never going to all agree on everything, right. And if you're the type of person that's not going to respect someone else's opinion, you're going to create divisiveness. We already have divisiveness. So I'm going way overboard, trying to learn and listen to all sides of every issue is not just two sides. It's anything and trying to bring that kind of leadership. So the 45th word. So let's

Ron Bockstahler  18:07  

I mean, everyone has skeletons in the closet, at least in my history. I know I do. So what's the worst thing that your opponent's gonna find out about you and getting put out there? Let's put it out right now?

Megan Mathias  18:16  

Well, we, I've talked about 100 podcasts, there's nothing about thinking that you can find that I haven't talked about that justice podcast, but you know, interviews and, you know, articles and whatever, over this span of time because I I talk about grit in terms of how I started my company, because of what I went through. Right. So I've already talked about it today, you know, having to file bankruptcy as a young person that was just getting divorced, and it was $15,000 with spout felt like a mountain at that age. I look back I'm like, wow, you know, that was probably, you know, that was hard. It was embarrassing. that follows you for a decade. So those kind of things I'm sure going to come up but but I'm a real authentic person. So I'm not worried about that. I'm sure maybe some strategists are, but I think it is what it is right. And you make mistakes, and you can either own it or you can hide from it. So I own mine. I learned from them. And and i'm i've learned not to put myself in situations like that to repeat them.

Ron Bockstahler  19:12  

So I've heard you said just one on one you and I've talked and I know you got some vision you got you got things you want to do. Let's talk about what your vision is for the 45th ward. I would

Megan Mathias  19:20  

love to see the all Germans office focus on our schools as sitting on that policy. You know, I have learned first of all how complex and hard it is to run a public school. I don't run it I just participate in and it's it's hard. I helped the school forum, the tech committee, thank goodness about a year before COVID because I love tech. Obviously I want to bring innovation to the Ottomans office too. But that that's a real issue, especially now. I mean, the schools are the foundation of a neighborhood what the schools are going for going through because of COVID. It's transformational, how they, how they handle it and how our kids are going to come out of it and I have one at every level. I have a kindergartener, a second grader and a junior in high school. So how the schools are able to navigate, it's gonna matter how my kids come out of this with how much therapy they need, right? I mean, it really does matter. And we're not focusing a lot on that. And I think it would be really important. But another issue that is really important in my word is both development and the lack of investment in the in the community. So there's the main thoroughfare fare going through, the word is dead. There's a lot of vacancy, but no one's working on it. When you ask my opponent, what's the vision to get these small businesses, you know, supported and people back out? You know, when invigorator Award, he won't answer that question. And I'm here to say I have a big plan. As you can see, I think big, maybe too big, I'm sure someone will say that's ridiculous. Let's tone it down. But you've got to come in with a plan and advocate and work hard and think about it and actually wait for something to land on your desk. So that's what I want to do was put together a vision for the ward, listen to community voice work, really, that's going to be hard. I'm not saying just walk around, and everyone agrees with me. So I know that's a hard process. But if you start that now, I'm not in the office yet. I won't be the older person until February 2023. But I'm starting now with a plan and how do you listen? How what are the models that have been successful around the country for listening to community voice? How do you put that together? who's involved? What's that look like? So I think the community I know the community, they're hungry for it. They want to be listened to and respected. Talk to

Ron Bockstahler  21:27  

me a little bit about COVID-19 vaccinations, masking, I don't even know what if the school policies you have to mass correct. That's a state policy, right?

Megan Mathias  21:34  

Yeah. Yep. CPS are going to be in person and everybody mass. So I mean, I don't know what the Delta bear if there's going to be some kind of change in that. But there's I also think our leadership could have been better there too, especially in my neighborhood, I was as a regular private citizen organizing and transporting people to their COVID vaccinations, you know, it was a little bit like cricket sometimes, like, why can't we get why isn't my opponent before he was my opponent helping me? Why am I doing this? You know, with my with friends, and volunteers and neighbors and other electeds helping me find people that needed a vaccine, how do you get someone to coordinate to get both make their appointment, because that's the thing for people who don't aren't great at computers, half of the appointment systems were virtual. So you'd have to go and help them make the appointment and then arrange the transportation to go pick them up, wait for them. And some people were waiting hours at a time to get their appointment, get him back home, and then do it again for the second one. So that was a lot of work that that was I think the government should have been doing that. But I was doing that.

Ron Bockstahler  22:34  

Let's talk about being an alderman because you're 50 alderman in Chicago, there are so you remember back in the day when Daly was there. And if he didn't have a 50 to zero vote on what's something he put out in front? Like he might have had a 49 to one I was like, Whoa, someone disagreed? That's changed a little bit, because we actually see that there's a little independent thinking going on. Can you talk to a little bit about you know how, because you're obviously not going to be a rubber stamp, not the wallflower. Yeah, you're not gonna be the wallflower. But how are you going to handle that? How you can handle being, you know, one of 50 working with the mayor?

Megan Mathias  23:02  

Yeah, it's a tough job, but I'm good at collaborating. So what I say to people is they say, oh, you're this tough lawyer. You're good at like the fight. I am good at the fight. We're great at the fight, actually. But you resolve things 99% of the time, it needs to be resolved. It's not the case you take to trial even when you're a great lawyer because I love to take stuff to trial. I love trial work. I love being in the courtroom. It's where like all it's like, what my passion is really it's illegal. So but that's not always the best result for anybody for the clients, especially. So how do you take a complex issue when people are on fire? They're, you know, emotionally charged. They've been going at it, they're spending too much money litigating. They're just in a nasty place. How do you take that and find a solution? That's what I do every day. And and City Council's a little bit like that there are people complain that that the mayor is able to sort of manhandle the council, because she's good at the rules, but she's good at the rules. And I say to people, then learn the rules, and that you know, straight I don't walk in accordance hope someone doesn't object to my piece of evidence I've studied for weeks, I know what you're gonna object, I know how I'm gonna answer. I don't know how I'm gonna win, because I brought the case law. So that's sort of how you have to approach the job. And I know that's not everybody's thing. But I guess that's my mentality is how you both collaborate, but also anticipate and politic and think a little bit ahead how we're going to get get past an objection or emotion of the table. Something, you know, think a little bit about that and work with your colleagues on it. So I think that's a really important piece. So I

Ron Bockstahler  24:29  

asked you all I said, are you up to this challenge? And you said I was born for this?

Megan Mathias  24:34  

Yeah, I do feel like I've been preparing, sharpening the skills my whole career for this job. Because it is it is complex. It is both constituent services, where I think there needs to be more technology, managing the Office of the aldermen and how calls come in and what's being done about them and looking at those metrics, but it also is the legislative portion of our job, and how you're Want to approach what the community needs, how you're going to listen to the community voice, there's menu money that every alderman gets every year. And you get to decide what to use that and some people listen to the community and others just decide. So there's hybrid models that you can both listen to the community. And but yet you make the decision, I think it's a better way to approach it. Because it's not just me, I'm, I'm merely a reflection of the community. I'm supposed to be your representative, whether you voted for me or not, which is apparently an issue in my work, where if you didn't vote for someone, you may not get the attention, or you're thinking your whole dress bottle. I don't want to be like that. You know what I'm trying to say it again,

Ron Bockstahler  25:36  

you can't get bottles fixed, or you can't get your garbage taken, taken out? Oh, yeah.

Megan Mathias  25:39  

Yeah, I could, yeah, I want it to be I'm listening. And I'm, you know, we're not going to hold grudges, we're going to move forward, we're going to find a way. And if you need assistance with your pothole, or or, you know, trimming a tree, or whatever's happening in your house, it's not going to matter. Well, when I'm the older person who you voted for,

Ron Bockstahler  25:57  

if we talk about politics on a little bit bigger picture and keep and kind of focused on technology, you know, how can we use technology to get more people to the polls?

Megan Mathias  26:05  

Yeah, I would say it's not just technology, it's also innovative thinking. So there went hand in hand. So some of what I do, it's not even the technology. It's the way we think about things. So I think that the same way, we're doing our mark kickoff on our campaign on national voter registration day, because I think voter registration should be everywhere. It should be, you know, you go to the store, and there's the voter registration reminder. And you know, because more people involved is better, there's 55,000 people will right now or redistricting, but right now, there's 55,000 people in the ward for the new numbers come out, and only 14,800 vote for the older person. So you really should, from a metric standpoint, have more people involved. So you know, you're representing what the community really wants, right. So that includes, that's just the basics of voting. So there's lots of new technology out, there's lots of energy around voter registration. And I think it's really important to keep that going.

Ron Bockstahler  27:02  

change gears a little bit, let's talk about a couple of organizations where you sit on the board. And I think cuz you got a couple of really good interesting ones that you work with. And if you got one you want to talk about Otherwise, I'll just I sat

Megan Mathias  27:12  

on the board of the YWCA of Metropolitan Chicago for many years, I recently resigned because they have a lot of business with Chicago. And I didn't want that to be an issue in my race. So I actually just stepped off the board. But their mission was empowering women and eliminating racism, both things I care deeply about. And they have so many wonderful people, they serve more than 200,000 families in the in the Chicagoland area. They're a really great organization that I sat, I literally cried when I resigned because it's really a passion of mine. I also sit on the board of lifespan, which is an organization that is long standing, and it's been fighting domestic violence and human trafficking for a very long time. I even help with bigger pieces, because those trying to trials are tough, and you don't want to miss miss a beat. And sometimes you have big scary opponents. Right? So you need the team. And so I've been doing that work for a long time. And I care passionately about that there is no excuse for domestic violence.

Ron Bockstahler  28:10  

And are you still working with the coalition of women's initiatives in law? Yeah, I've

Megan Mathias  28:14  

been a member for probably more than a decade at this point. And I sought them out because like I said earlier, I was always the only female in my area where I was working. And that was many law firm, different law firms, I still had that challenge. And I always felt like I needed some support. So I went to the coalition, like I said more than 10 years ago, and it's about creating policies to help women feel empowered, and really break through the glass ceiling. And that group was an is still is just really amazing. So when I went on my own, and then my partner was sick. And I actually was like, wow, I need the village today. So I had the village because I've been working with people for so long that it finally finally all came back. And that's how I felt about the groups. I've been in the my community. My community stepped up for me when we needed it when my kids needed it when my partner was sick, and I'm trying to get the hospice and we can't get dinner and someone needs to bring the kids somewhere, my community stepped up for me. So I've learned that these decades of work in the community giving back it comes full circle when you need it.

Ron Bockstahler  29:20  

That's awesome. That's great to hear. I'm glad that they were there for you. Let's kind of take it back. And we're kind of running out of time. So I will give you a minute to talk about any last things you want to communicate. But before we get to that I want to ask one question is what's the one thing in the legal profession that you would like to see changed? Me instability

Megan Mathias  29:36  

is an issue. There's so many things it's but instability is very, it's very hard when it's hard to deal with because, well, when I was a young lawyer, I wanted to I had my natural tendency, my personality, as you can tell is I'm not going to step down to a belief but that's not how you handle that in a courtroom. Obviously, I say this to people a lot. I often have to listen to somebody lying to the judge or You know, misrepresenting what's happening here without, you know, launching in the woods, you know, a bunch of swear words when you're a young lawyer and someone's treating you a certain way, and they're treating you a certain way because you're female, and they think they can intimidate you or whatever. So it's it's instability, but also other issues, I helped form a group called flash, which is force of lawyers against sexual harassment, there's been some, there's a lot of that in the industry, which doesn't get talked about. So I'm in a number of groups that are fighting that issue and, and working really hard, hard on it. So that's much worse than different than instability. But it's the truth how you're treated as a lawyer. That sounds like a first world problem, but it really is horrible to go through it. I know many, many of my friends that have gone through it, and how do you handle it in the moment? You know, are you dealing with a partner who has authority over you? Are you going to lose your job? It's going to look bad? Do you sue someone I mean, it's there's a lot that can just derail your whole career because you were sexually harassed. And then the day to day incivility just generally, is the thing I think the legal industry really needs to take on how women are treated specifically in a courtroom, you know, opposing counsels, undermining you with things like okay, sweetheart, and the way I addressed that is like, okay, you're gonna eat those words later. And across cleaning it, but but there is a real serious problem that we have. And now we're starting to talk about it more. My the flash group has been really, really great at articles and getting male allies in and we're having, we're asking people in firms to sign pledges to deal with when things come up, because it's serious, and it needs to be addressed right away, because it can derail the careers of all these women.

Ron Bockstahler  31:37  

So are you seeing an improvement? Is there are we getting better?

Megan Mathias  31:40  

I think I see a lot of awareness raising, I do think I don't know if it's getting better, because everybody doesn't report but we hear a lot about it, because we're allowed about that. So and we have mentors assigned people to help them navigate things. I do think that having more people aware that this is going on, and is a really important development. So I always try to stay positive and optimistic. And I do think we're making progress there.

Ron Bockstahler  32:05  

So I lied. That was supposed to be my last question. But you know, my next question is, are we seeing a crack in the glass ceiling for women, minorities in law?

Megan Mathias  32:13  

We are, I mean, the metrics aren't great. So we get these reports out from the National Association of Women lawyers, for example. And sometimes you're like, wow, that's brutal. But now there's more than 50% of people graduating from law schools are female, there's a lot of movement towards genuine diversity and inclusion programs within law firms still tough. It's still It's why I have pink walls at my firm because we send a message. But I do think there's been some a lot of progress made, and people are very aware, and the clients are now demanding it, which is killer, because before the clients are demanding it, you're sort of barking up a tree when clients are demanding it and you're saying, look, you can you can potentially get more work or whatever, you can make the business case for diversity, unfortunately. And they now it's people are more aware. And so I do think we're making Alright,

Ron Bockstahler  33:01  

but your clients are demanding it. And I know we're gonna run short on time, but you just keep I love talking to you. You're You're wonderful. Now, let's talk about the Coca Cola GC. Remember, when he demanded law firms had I think it's 20%, he was looking for a minority representation. And you know, three months later, he's gone. So are they really? Do they really? Are they able to do it? Or do we still have the old boy network at the back, you know, in the back of the room, still kind of dictating What's going on?

Megan Mathias  33:24  

Yeah, oh, there's definitely the old boy network, for sure. In Chicago is different than other places, you know, even in counties in Illinois, that's a whole different ballgame. But, but I do think it's making a difference. Because you can also say, in addition to why you should do this, morally, ethically, and just because you're a good human, you should also expect to get more business because some clients are, and I work a lot with younger, more diverse companies, with younger leaders, and people are absolutely demanding it at that level. So it just kind of depends on the playground you're in and my playground includes a lot of women and people of color. So we're we all demanded and expected and it's really, really fun to work with a really diverse team that gets it.

Ron Bockstahler  34:07  

Well, I'm glad that you're out there people like you're out there. Of course, four of my six children are women or young lady, so you know, I'm looking for a better life from them for them. So more power, I hope we would make some major changes. Thank you.

Megan Mathias  34:18  

Thanks for the opportunity to speak with you. What's fun,

Ron Bockstahler  34:20  

absolutely is there you want to leave the audience with like one final thought with your candidacy for the 45th Ward, your law firm, anything you want. Well, we

Megan Mathias  34:28  

love to help. Like I said companies run by forward thinkers. So we have a full service firm that can help in run even, you know, latest NGC plus do type work. It's my favorite thing to do these days. And as it relates to my word I just want to meet I want to shake everybody's hand in the whole world. And listen, that's what I'm on my listening tour right now. So I want to hear from everyone. So check us out at Megan for 45th word that

Ron Bockstahler  34:53  

calm. Awesome, Megan. Thanks for joining us today. It's great having you on love your insight and best of luck on the campaign.

Megan Mathias  34:59  

Thanks so much. appreciate your support.

Ron Bockstahler  35:01  

Thanks, everyone joining us today, we will talk to you again next week. I believe we are talking about family planning estate planning next week. So look forward to a great show next week. All right, that's it.

Megan Mathias  35:10  

Awesome. Thanks so much. Awesome. Cool.

Ron Bockstahler  35:12  

Doctor, I just love talking to you. So I think, Oh, thank

Megan Mathias  35:14  

you. That was really cool. I appreciate the opportunity.

Ron Bockstahler  35:17  

You've got so much going for you. I learned a lot about you today. So that's really cool, happy to help in any way we can. Also, when you get more when things are rolling, or you want to do it we can have I know when people run for judge, we did some fundraising, or introduction parties at the Summer centers. Let's do it. That was kind of fun. Yeah, know how that helps you.

Megan Mathias  35:35  

I'm in these groups that kind of bubbled up during COVID to help all the lawyers figure everything out. I think it would be cool for you to come and speak one day to those group of Lady lawyers. They're all Family Law Attorneys, like there's like 60 in the group, but usually, like 2025 show up every Wednesday, on the calendar. And I think he has some claims out of it.

Ron Bockstahler  35:54  

I mean, I want you know, for me, it's more about getting clients about changing the practice of law. This is this is my passion is I really want to make practicing law say easier, more enjoyable, so we can get legal services to the 74% of Americans who can't afford them. Absolutely. You know, we just got to change the way things are done. And that's kind of what the premise of what we're doing. So

Megan Mathias  36:12  

Awesome. Well, great. I look. All right. I'll see you in a few weeks.

Ron Bockstahler  36:16  

Sounds good. Okay, bye. Bye. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, Stephen E. Seckler, Esq. talks about how lawyers should adopt marketing strategies that feel comfortable and how hiring a coach make a big difference in building a law practice. Steve also talks about how he coaches lawyers through career transitions.  He describes the work he is now doing with senior lawyers who are trying to decide what comes next. Steve is host of his own podcast, Counsel to Counsel. He is a lawyer who has dedicated his entire career to helping attorneys find more career satisfaction.

Timestamps:

• How young lawyers can overcome marketing challenges (3:52)
• Marketing tips for all kinds of lawyers (15:18)
• The importance of getting a coach and business development tips (27:44)
• The next stage for seniors (36:54)

“Find a niche that you really like and enjoy, really go deep with that niche, you want to be known for something. When you're a young lawyer, again, the focus really should be on being a great lawyer giving great client service.” - Stephen Seckler

Connect with Stephen Seckler:

Website: http://www.counseltocounsel.com/

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/stephenseckler

Stephen Seckler, President of Seckler Legal Recruiting and Coaching

Legal Recruiting and Coaching

Stephen Sackler is a lawyer with over 25 years with marketing and career counseling experience working with other attorneys. He hosts the Counsel to Counsel Podcast where he interviews leading attorneys and consultants about the legal profession and his blog Counsel to Counsel has been twice named to the ABA Journal's Blawg 100.

LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenseckler/

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

Episode Transcript:

Ron Bockstahler  1:53  

Our guest today is Stephen Sackler, a lawyer with over 25 years with marketing and career counseling experience working with other attorneys. Even hosts, he hosts the podcast Council, the counselor, where he interviews legal leading attorneys and consultants about the legal profession. And his blog counselor counselor has been twice named to the ABA journal journals blog 100. So the juror doctor is in Stephen, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Happy to be here. Hey, let's get started a little bit by laying some groundwork and talk about your background and how you found your calling and helping other attorneys achieve success.

Stephen Seckler  2:52  

Okay, well, it's been a long journey. I did go to law school. And when I graduated, I wasn't feeling that motivated to continue. On my journey to become a practicing lawyer. I made a stab at finding a legal job. But then I stumbled into Massachusetts continuing legal education, where I was developing continuing education programs, I was hobnobbing with the leaders of the bar in Massachusetts. And I got very interested in marketing, business development. Interested in general career development, I also saw how some of the leaders of the bar were really cultivating and building their own careers. So in 1997, about seven years after I began that I decided to launch my own consulting business. And initially, I was really focused heavily on recruiting. More recently, I have been focused much more on coaching lawyers on how to grow their practice, as you said, and how to manage their careers. And that's what I've been doing for the last 20 years or so.

Ron Bockstahler  3:52  

So Steve, let's kind of start with some of the challenges new lawyers are facing and building the practice. And I kind of really want to hit maybe a little focus on the marketing of their services and building their book of business.

Stephen Seckler  4:04  

Sure, well, what I always say to young lawyers is that when you're beginning your legal career, the most important thing you could do is become a great lawyer, learn your craft. Try to learn as much as you can about whatever practice area you're in. But at a certain point, and especially for lawyers who stay in private practice, having your own clients is really what's going to make you a much happier lawyer. In my observation over the last 2530 years. It's the lawyers who really have their own clients who have their own book of business that have more career flexibility, and they're basically just happier. And that's not entirely true because there are some niche practice areas that don't lend themselves as well, to business development. But for the most part, a lot of lawyers in private practice are happier when they have their own clients.

Ron Bockstahler  4:52  

Now, I seen I believe you're on Steve Breton show not too long ago. Be that be that attorney I think is what his show is called. And, you know, Steve's always about building your book of business. And that's what really brings your value, either at the firm or when you go in on your own. But how do you build that book of business? You know, what's been your journey? If I met a big firm, I mean, I'm working your big time hours, I don't have time to go out and really make relationships. And what are you how are you suggesting a young attorney that's 10, a few years 10 or fewer years practicing to build their book.

Stephen Seckler  5:30  

So the first thing is to find a niche that you really like and enjoy and really go deep with that niche, you want to be known for something. When you're a young lawyer, again, the focus really should be on being a great lawyer giving great client service. And the clients could be the lawyers who you report to the partners, as well as the real clients who are paying the fees. But as you get more senior, new, there are things that you can do to continue to lay the groundwork for success in business development. As a young lawyer, maybe you might help a partner prepare some course materials for a CLE program, maybe you might write some blog posts yourself, maybe you might post some things on social media. But basically, as a young lawyer, you can begin to develop this niche. And you could also begin to start to produce some content yourself. Maybe as you get a little bit more senior, you might appear on a panel or on a presentation, do a presentation, maybe it might be internal presentations. So even though there are very strong demands on young lawyers these days, to bill a lot of hours, there are little things that you could do. The other thing is as you get out of Well, as you leave law school, and you enter the working world, you still have relationships that will eventually bear fruit, these are people that you went to college with people that you went to law school with. And if you just maintain and keep up those relationships over time, those could blossom, it's not clear which ones will become business. But as a young lawyer, just making sure to get out of your office once in a while, or calling a friend, or getting on a zoom as we do now in the world of COVID. Just being aware that you can't build a practice, you won't be able to build a practice if you don't connect with the world. And you can lay the foundation and it's like investing for anything you invest for college, if you start at the moment, when you want to actually have enough money for college, it's kind of late if you start investing in the relationship building early on and just kind of pick away at it. It's like farming, you plant the seeds and they will grow.

Ron Bockstahler  7:36  

So you've helped a lot of attorneys adjust their careers either moving from one firm, maybe they weren't happy something wasn't working out to other firms. mean is it recommended to make a lot of moves within your career?

Stephen Seckler  7:49  

Well, within reason, I mean, it depends upon the reason for making the move. Sometimes people get off on the wrong foot, that's not an uncommon reason for somebody to make a lateral move. Lawyers are can be unforgiving, especially at the larger law firms in terms of how people make a bad first impression. So sometimes making a lateral move can help you with that. A better reason. And a lot of times the reasons that I help and have helped people make lateral moves, is because the firm didn't really have the kind of clients where they weren't able to do the kind of work that they wanted to do. And then sometimes they don't like the environment in general, they don't like the way the firm is run, the use of technology, the commitment to professional development. So there are sometimes non practice reasons why people make lateral moves.

Ron Bockstahler  8:35  

And it goes back to what you said earlier, find that niche that you really enjoy doing and just become the best at it. Yeah, that seems a common theme. I think that's what helps us create just happiness and what we're doing, which and let's we'll kind of hit on a little of the mental health issues in the legal industry. I know. You've recently had a guest on your show. Ida Abbott talked a little bit about, you know, designing or designing your retirement, I guess. And you know, when does that start? Well,

Stephen Seckler  9:08  

it's at some firms in reverse starts. But, but in a healthy firm, I think by the time lawyers are three or you know, beyond 30 years into practice, that's something they might want to be thinking about. And something I've been focusing on more lately. Because a healthy law firm has to keep praying or any organization that's healthy, has to keep bringing up the next generation of talent. And again, it's the same thing as investment. If you kind of wait until the day before you retire, you haven't really laid the groundwork for transitioning the clients. If you stay practicing until late into your 60s into your 70s you show no sign of relinquishing control over the firm. Then the up and coming talent may decide they're not going to stick around. So there's a threat to the firm because the clients may leave and there's a threat to the talent Management because the talent may leave. So I would argue that once you're into well into your 50s, that's when it's a good time to start thinking actually, from my own experience. When our last child went off to college in 2017, my wife and I participated in a program on aging. And it was a great program. And we didn't get the memo, like everybody else in the program was like, in their late 60s and early 70s. And what was so great about not they weren't lawyers, it was just other professionals, or the one of them was a musician who had trained as a lawyer in practice for a while. And what I realized is that it really never is too soon to be thinking about, about the next stage. So a couple of summers ago, I went out and bought a Martin guitar and started playing.

Ron Bockstahler  10:47  

Alright, already starting to plan that retirement.

Stephen Seckler  10:51  

Yeah, I won't be retired for a long time. But

Ron Bockstahler  10:54  

you know, I'd sent you that article recently. Martha McGarry, let's talk about that real quick scans. first female m&a partner says no to retirement to forced retirement at 70 and moves over to I believe, Mayor Brown, you know, what do you think of that? What kind of get some input on that?

Stephen Seckler  11:12  

I think it's a really, I think it's a conundrum because people age at different rates. I mean, it was talking to sort of have a hard and fast rule. May, you may have somebody that's got a lot of vibrancy at the age of 75. And you may have somebody that's really on the decline at the age of 70. So I heard two stories from the CEO of a law firm called burns and Levinson here in Boston. It's a midsize firm. And he told me two tales, one of a lawyer who was about 70, and had planned out a nice transition transition to all his clients over a period of three years, and then spent a lot more time with his grandchildren got involved in a lot of nonprofit causes and had a happy departure from the firm. And then he told me about another partner who was in his late 70s. And it was already experiencing some cognitive decline. And partners at the firm, were noticing it, the clients were starting to notice it. And eventually he ended up leaving the firm. He didn't want to relinquish control. He just wasn't ready to leave because he didn't know what he was going to do next. And he died a year later. I mean, it was sort of tragic.

Ron Bockstahler  12:21  

Yeah, that I can tell you within, you know, my firm and model office suites, I've it kind of thinking about that. And, you know, listening to your show with Ida, I went and looked back, and we've had seven law attorneys that have passed away while still, you know, working in our spaces. And two of my specifically recall talking to about when they retire, and they said when I die. And well, I yeah, I don't

Stephen Seckler  12:48  

I don't think that's the wrong answer for everybody. But I think that, you know, there are some people that really get meaning it's all about meaning. It's like, it's the existential question of where do you how do you derive meaning and I think for some people, like I had a friend whose father was a lawyer, and he went into the office until he was in his late 80s. He just loved being a lawyer. I mean, he wasn't going in full time. And you know, by the time he was in his late 80s, he certainly wasn't doing a ton of client work. But you can't really say, you know, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, she was a Supreme Court justice until well into her 80s. Now, for political reasons. Some may say that that was a colossal mistake if you happen to lean the way I do. But she was vibrant. She was sharp, she was producing great work, and she loved her work. So I don't think the there's a right answer for anybody. I think a large firm though, like, like Skadden or any of the bigger institutions, I mean, I know accounting firms actually have mandatory retirement at a much younger age. They're like, 62, I think I heard. And the reasoning there is that, again, it's the succession planning issue. It's how are the clients going to have confidence that they're going to continue to be served? How are the up and coming talent going to perceive that there's going to be room for them. But I mean, I don't think a healthy model is to say you have to leave I think a healthier model is I think it's good when Proctor has a model where you have to give up your equity, maybe at the age of 67. I'm not sure what the ages. But it doesn't mean you have to leave, you can work out an arrangement where you can continue to do work. But you know, and that, and some lawyers do want to continue to do work. But some lawyers just haven't been able to figure out what they want to do next door. It's just terrifying to think about what's going to happen after the day they're not coming into the office. And so I'm doing a lot of work in that realm. And I'm really enjoying it.

Ron Bockstahler  14:42  

And I want to get to you have a new program called the next stage but before we get to that I kind of want to reel is back just a little bit. You know, a lot of our listeners are going to be on the younger side. 30s 40s 50s and 60s, I guess it's still we're talking about young and you're careful, careful. Let's talk a little bit more about some of the challenges are facing and you know, What is there? Is there a specific trait that really makes attorney really good at originating work going out and getting new business? Or is it is it a trade or something that they can learn?

Stephen Seckler  15:18  

So I used to think that any lawyer could become a good Rainmaker. And I don't mean like a $10 million Rainmaker, but I used to think that any lawyer could develop a practice. And now I think that most lawyers can develop a practice. There are some lawyers that literally will always be best suited to being in the back office, working on the deals by looking at the documents and not really interacting as much with the clients. So and that's fine. For some people, tax seems to be an area where that that seems to happen. But a lot of lawyers, a lot of the people that are in your offices could definitely improve their marketing skills. And I think the biggest problem that a lot of lawyers have is that they save marketing for a rainy day. They are busy, they're doing work, everything seems good. And then they wait until they don't have enough work. And then they start marketing. And successful marketing is really like the tortoise and the hare story, the tortoise is the one that's going to win the race, because, you know, you don't know when someone is going to have a need for your services. And I have a friend who's in my network in our networking group revisers, Michael Katz, and he talks about when he does presentations to people on marketing, he'll say how many of you are going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 minutes. And like, nobody's going to buy a refrigerator the next 15 minutes, how many of you are going to buy a refrigerator the next 15 years. And of course, a lot of people are going to buy a refrigerator in the next 15 years. And that is the essence of the problem with selling professional services you don't know when somebody you meet is going to have a need for your services, or hear of somebody who has a need for your services. Therefore, showing up on a regular basis, making it a habit is really important. And it's really hard for lawyers, particularly at the larger law firms where the hours are grueling to set aside time to do that. But if you could make just a little bit of time to sort of systematically, drop a note forward an article, post something on LinkedIn and show up once in a while at a bar association meeting, connect with an old law school classmate, connect with a college classmate who's now in a corporate environment, those things over time will pay off because at some point in the future, somebody may have a need for your services. And somebody may know if somebody was a need for your services, or they may never have a need for your services. But you may hear of a need that they have.

Ron Bockstahler  17:52  

It's a great point. Now it add to that is be genuine. And you know, find a networking group or associations you can belong to that you really have an interest in. Not just you're not just going because you want to get work. It I think people can tell.

Stephen Seckler  18:11  

I agree. I mean, you and I are improvisers. And what I love about pro visors, I've been a member for two years. And I'm like not drinking the Kool Aid. I'm like guzzling it. And I say that jokingly. But I mean, what I love about it is people are just so eager to help each other. It's really almost not like the real world. I mean, I just got a referral of a lawyer who's thinking about the some of these existential issues. The person who, who referred me as a marketing consultant, so she's not a lawyer, but she met this person who seemed like she had a need. And she referred this woman to me, she said, You should call Steve. And she didn't, actually this woman followed up with me and said, Did so and so contact you said No, I haven't heard from her. But I really, really appreciate the referrals. Who said I'm going to call her again. And so she called her again. And she said, you know, you really talked to Steve. And we spoke and we're going to work together. It's, it's a, it's a great network. So finding a networking group where people are genuine and authentic, like providers, and we're not unique, but it really helps to be around people that are like minded.

Ron Bockstahler  19:17  

Yeah, that makes me think of you as a coach. Is it? Is it hard for other attorneys to admit they need a coach?

Stephen Seckler  19:27  

It's it's really hard for attorneys to think that they need a coach. I mean, lawyers are sort of trained to think they can go it alone. They're gonna figure it all out. I'm smart. And the best expression of this that I heard was another coach. He doesn't really work with lawyers. Somebody also improvisers Sergio symbol. And he didn't attribute the quote anywhere, but the quote is basically, you can't read the label from inside the jar. And the notion there is that we none of us are self reflective. I mean, the best coaches that I know improvisers all have coaches I mean, that's how, how meta it is. So why does a lawyer think that they went to law school? And they learned how to research, you know, case law? Why do they think they should know anything at all about marketing. I mean, a lot of a lot of the coaching, though, is motivational. It's getting people to act, and holding them accountable. So I'm not saying that what we do as coaches is rocket science all the time. Sometimes I provide content that people hadn't thought of, I give them ideas. A lot of it is just holding them accountable and saying, Hey, you know, you said you were gonna do 10 push ups. So what's getting in your way?

Ron Bockstahler  20:39  

That's, that's a great point, you spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars going and get this amazing education. And then you start spending on yourself to continue the self improvement. And it really takes a push, I think, to get not just attorneys, but all of us to just go out there and go ahead and do need someone to help me.

Stephen Seckler  20:58  

Well, again, it has to do with like, thinking with an investment mentality, I'm investing in something. And lawyers are not always so good at that, you know, you get a client, you do the work, you build it out, and you get back. The fees are paid, you know, in marketing, you have to do lots of different things, and many of them won't have any return. So when, you know, I never promised anybody that I'm going to increase their business by any particular amount. So it may seem a little bit nebulous for what value am I actually getting. But you know, Michael Jordan had a coach outside of Phil Jackson. I don't know, I'm not really a basketball fan. But

Ron Bockstahler  21:45  

let's, let's, if we, you know, it's interesting, looking at the return, you get on Marketing, and today, you drive down the highway, and you see a ton of billboards. And it's, I mean, I bet 60% of them are from law firms, or attorneys. At least that's my perception. What was it like, if you go back before 1976, I think when the Bates versus the State Bar of Arizona case, when attorneys actually couldn't market.

Stephen Seckler  22:12  

I think that was a world in which lawyers did good work. And the work came to them. And then if you were a young lawyer, you got to the law firm, you learned how to be a lawyer, and eventually those became your clients. That's not the world we live in anymore.

Ron Bockstahler  22:29  

Today, you gotta go. I've never actually called an attorney. From a marketing piece, I've always called someone I know, and said, Who do you know that can do this type of work?

Stephen Seckler  22:41  

Well, I mean, the kinds of lawyers that put the billboards out are trying to market to individuals, and the kinds of individuals they're trying to market to, they may not have a big professional network. I mean, lots of people get injured, some of them have big professional networks. If I were injured, if a family member of mine were injured, I wouldn't absolutely reach out to a lawyer I knew liked and trusted. I mean, I happen to know a lot of personal injury lawyers already. But you know, if it was an area of specialization that I didn't know, I would get a referral. But a lot of people don't have those networks. So those billboards, I think, still work. Social media is probably even more effective now, though, because when somebody has a need, it's pretty common for people to Google it. But I don't think the you know, the general counsel if you need to attacks, you know, if he needs an Ursa specialist. I don't think the general counsel of GE, is typing in Ursa and googling it, you know, right?

Ron Bockstahler  23:35  

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about you know, moving on from that, let's talk about other career issues that you are seeing attorneys are experiencing just in the attorneys you're working with, because I know you're working with quite a few.

Stephen Seckler  23:48  

So I really enjoy helping lawyers sort of think through career transitions. So a common theme is lawyers want to go in house. And helping them think that through. Those are some of the people that I work with on a coaching basis. And these are particularly people like if you're a fifth year corporate associate, at a large law firm, you're going to get called by recruiters, you're going to be able to go in house, you're going to be able to be reactive. But for the rest of the world wanting to go into a corporate environment, that may be a harder transition. So the skills that I work with my clients on in career transitions are kind of similar to the marketing skills, it's about networking, going out and getting information, building your network, leveraging the contacts that you have. I was recently working with a ninth year associate who didn't make partner so that involved a little bit of propping her up she hadn't she was at a big law firm and thought everything was going well and you know, as does happen at a lot of these firms. She was kind of Sideswipe I've been taken aback, we went through a whole process. And eventually, I actually ended up introducing into the firm where she's now working, which is a regional firm in another part of the country. And she's not only excited about no longer working at a large law firm, where the hours are really grueling. But she's also excited about starting to grow her practice. And so we worked on her networking skills and her communication. And through that, she was able to see that she actually has some skill in relationship building that will help her to build a practice as she enters this new firm, with, by the way, lower bill rates, I have other clients who decide that they want to start their own practice. I've helped lawyers through those transitions. And a lot of the clients I work with, it's really helping them be develop a marketing mentality, develop marketing habits. And that's where people see the word lawyers see the greatest value in coaching because they could see like a real ROI. Whereas career stuff is a little bit more nebulous.

Ron Bockstahler  26:04  

It just shows Is it true that if you can get someone to do something for 21 days, they can create a habit never worked for me? It didn't work for me that I just curious, if you find something that maybe I don't know about?

Stephen Seckler  26:18  

I don't know about the 21 days, it takes a long time to get people to change their their behavior. It really does. I mean, I don't know. I'm just thinking about myself, although I did realize that I needed to get rid of the COVID. Wait, I gave the Colt the COVID 15. And sometime around the beginning of May, that's when I really took the bull by the horns. And now, and I basically went to work, work out every single morning. Except for the day after I totaled my car, I thought I should take the day off after that. But long story, short story didn't matter. It was fine. I was fine. But now I woke up like for example today. And I didn't work out because at a very early meeting. And I felt like I my day didn't start off. Right, you know, I did meditate, which I do also when I wake up, so I you know, but I think it takes longer than 30 days actually to develop marketing habits, because it's very contrary to the way lawyers think they need to spend their time you know, it's hard to fight the billable hour, the billable hour, is immediate, in some ways immediate gratification, you're going to do the work, you're going to build it out. And for the most part, you're going to collect that money. It's a lot easier as humans for us to see. And be motivated to do things where we get immediate rewards. Marketing is something that you have to do over a long period of time. So working with a coach can help build that muscle, like the reward you might get is like, you know, Steve Sackler will say, like, that was a great meeting you just had good job. Attaboy. And I, you know, I say that jokingly, but I mean, you know, trust me, it really helps like, you know, I'm losing, I've lost my weight. And, you know, I'm telling I'm reporting to my wife, I get off the scale, and I text her right away. And she's like, that's great, you know, and I feel that much more motivated to keep working out every day and to cut down on the carbohydrates and eat more protein and, and not eat mindlessly.

Ron Bockstahler  28:21  

So those are things you get from a coach is that positive reinforcement. But, you know, you when you mentioned the attorney that nine years didn't make partner, I made me think do you ever talk about the shortage, maybe a shortness in your abilities? And how do you improve? You know, avoiding what your skill sets are?

Stephen Seckler  28:41  

I'm sorry, you mean? Like, if you're working on something where it's not really in your it's not really one of your strengths, but you're kind of doing it anyway?

Ron Bockstahler  28:48  

I guess it's kind of like card school? Do you have to come and say, you aren't a great networker, and let's talk about why you're not a great networker and what you can do to improve? Or is it all just all positive? Okay, well, I'm here to support you and make you build, you

Stephen Seckler  29:05  

know, I mean, I have plenty of clients that I, you know, I have to work really hard with to sort of get them to act. And some of them will never do it. You know, they just, they'll try and they won't, I won't say that's most of them. But some people are just not wired that way. I mean, look, if you don't like playing golf, and I only throw golf out, because it's sort of like a quintessential business development tool. It doesn't work for me. But if you don't like golf, you're not going to play. You're not going to enjoy yourself that's going to come across, you're going to make excuses not to do it. So. So you have to find out find things to do that you like that are consistent with business development, with marketing with generating work, and if you fundamentally don't like people, and I don't mean like you're misanthrope, but you just you know you don't really like learning about where somebody is kids go to school, or I mean I enjoyed learning little details about people I'm very I'm a natural schmoozer, you know, but I mean you don't have to. I'm not a natural glad hander. But you know, if you if you really don't like doing that at all, then it's going to be hard to be successful. But I have a client who didn't see himself as a successful Rainmaker. I'll use the word Rainmaker, but I don't mean it to mean millions. And he went through this process with me, he'd been practicing for 20 years, and we had some somewhat of a book of business, but it wasn't, certainly wasn't enough to go to another ham law 50 firm. And he did end up getting a job with another amla 50 firm again, I made the introduction, I didn't do it as a recruiter. But he went through this whole process. And now he's like, Well, actually, I do like going to baseball games, I like going to, you know, I enjoy being a basketball game sporting events. I like having coffee with people. So we're focusing on those things that he likes doing. People always say like, wow, I don't want to go to networking functions. I don't like that, well, you don't have to go to networking functions. I mean, in some ways, actually, networking functions can be a big waste of time. There's a there's an event in Massachusetts, there's an organization called combined Jewish philanthropies. And it's a hugely successful fundraising organization. It doesn't fund just Jewish causes. But you know, there's a lot of social service agencies that get their money from CJP. And every year, they have a big accountants, and lawyers, dinner, they didn't have one this past year, obviously. And I always go, and I don't go back. And you know, the organizational make a big hype about it, I think it's frankly, if you don't know too many people, and you go to something like that, it's not necessarily a great use of your time, I don't go there because I expect to get have meaningful interactions or, or really get to know new people. Although sometimes I do meet new people, I go there, because I know I'm going to run into a lot of Jewish and non Jewish lawyers and accountants. And then I'll make appointments to have coffee with them and follow up. So I'll go to a meeting that has 1000 people. And I'll end up setting up three appointments after that. But I do it because I know I'm going to run into people. If somebody doesn't know anybody in that environment, that's going to be you know, you're not going to be motivated to do it. So I work with people to sort of figure out what are the things that they're going to enjoy that are going to give them the opportunities to make the connections that might lead to direct work or referrals?

Ron Bockstahler  32:25  

So you kind of just took it right? Where I was thinking I want to go? And maybe I wasn't asking my question in the best way. But you got what I was looking for anyway, was, you know, I talked to a lot of attorneys and including myself to say, I hate networking. And okay, there's other things you can do you maybe you hate the concept, but there's things you do like, like, you know, just like going to a baseball game, that figure out the things you do enjoy doing and do those things. And you can still build your book of business through those type of activities, not necessarily the ones you don't like to do.

Stephen Seckler  32:58  

Exactly. I mean, if you like nonprofit work, community work, you know, you want to choose those activities where you're going to meet the kinds of people you want to meet. So like my my one of my I have a lot of stupid dad jokes that I use when I coach but one of my repeat jokes is, you know, if you want to marry somebody Jewish, don't hang out a Catholic singles dances. I've been married happily for 27 years, every month at the moment plus, but anyway. So so you have to choose those, you know, if you have your choice between two activities, or two people that you're gonna have coffee with. And one of them is a social worker. And the other one is the CFO of a bank, and you want to do more work with banks, then go have coffee with the bank doesn't mean bank CFO, it doesn't mean you shouldn't have coffee with your friend, the social worker, but you know, we only have a limited amount of time. So if you're going to make time to do business, development, marketing, do the things that are things that you enjoy, as you're saying, and things that will potentially lead you to the community that you want to get to be known. Absolutely, I

Ron Bockstahler  34:12  

can tell you a real funny story is. So Steve fretts has been a client of mine for many, many, many years. And I went to him this is a friend one day and I said my partner had retired and my partner was the I call them the ultimate sales guy talked to everyone just loved doing that and allowed me to kind of sit in the background. And I sat Steve's asked and I said I got a problem. I hate networking. I hate more hate talking to people I hate all these things. He's like, Ron, you really don't have to go any Why don't you just open up your Rolodex. And you can kind of show your age and talk about a Rolodex and just start calling people you already know. And, you know, I'd looked at him I said because I never thought of that. So that was as simple as you know, here's a resource you already have. You don't got to go do a mixer of 100 people and you know, stand at the corner and talk to one person Don't go to that mixer. Just make phone calls with people you know. And you another thing I did, you know not liking these things as the Simon Wiesenthal Center is a big organization, you know, worldwide but in Chicago, Allison slovan peers, one of my good friends, and she's the director. So she would invite me to these events and I say house, I really just don't want to go first, I'm not Jewish. No, you'll go, you'll have your good time. And I started going, and then I started buying a table. And then I started bringing people. And all of a sudden, you know, I built so many good solid relationships from doing something that I enjoyed. Now, they have the woman women of valor luncheon, except for this year, almost every year. And you go to things like that where you can, it's, it's your passion, something you're passionate about. Next thing, you know, you're building great relationships, and you don't even realize you're networking, if you will.

Stephen Seckler  35:54  

Well, it's interesting that you bring up Steve frets, and because I've been getting to know him well, and I'm learning a tremendous amount from them. And Steve will take what I just said about not spending time at the Catholic singles dances, to the next extreme and and say that, if you're having networking meetings, try to structure them, so that you can come to them thinking about how you can help each other so that you're not just having random acts of lunch and coffee. And he's really good at that, you know, just because we all have ways that we can help each other. And it doesn't mean that, you know, there's any specific thing that I'm going to get out of it. But if I could help somebody else, then you know, you never know, you never know when you're gonna meet your wife or your, your wife, sister.

Ron Bockstahler  36:38  

Well, and that's what I call being genuine, right, you're going because you got a genuine reason not because you're looking for something. And I think that makes a big difference. So we're kind of run out of time. So I really want you to talk about the next stage for seniors that you've got going on in your program your you've launched.

Stephen Seckler  36:54  

So the next stage is really something that I've gotten very excited about over the last year and a half. So as you know, I sent you an article I wrote, my parents died at the beginning of the pandemic. And they live long lives, they were quite elderly. So very sad, not tragic. And they did die of COVID. But what it really made me start to think about is what do I really want from my career. And then I started to realize this, a lot of lawyers, particularly in their 60s, not always could be younger, who really haven't thought that through, then who could really benefit from working with somebody to come up with a plan a strategy and to start experiment thing. It's not like practicing law, the process that I take people through the next stage is really about having an open mind taking action. I base my work on something called designing your life, which is a book by Bill Burnett, and Dave Evans, who are out in Stanford, and they applied design thinking to career management, actually, either avid who you've mentioned, just wrote a great book, which is more focused on retirement, their book is more focused just on careers in general. But there's a bunch of principles that they that they raised, that I think are really great for career exploration, and they're very, very different than the practice of law. Lawyers sort of have a goal in mind, and they work towards it until they close the deal till they produce the will. Until they, you know, move the case along and and take the depositions and then whatever, the it's very, very goal oriented, the process that I take people through is not you don't know where you're going. And that's okay. And what I love about working with people that are sort of later in their career, because I'm also at the stage myself is if you've made it financially well enough, I mean, not all of us could be wiped out by by long term care. But, you know, forgetting that a lot of lawyers are in this country are ageing, and you know, they've made it and it's more like, they just haven't figured out what to do next. So they keep doing the same thing. But they have options. And I love working with people to sort of draw out of them. What is it that really makes them motivated, and part of it could just be doing more pro bono work or being involved on committees, mentoring younger associates, or it could be something like spending a little more time with their grandchildren, and cutting back on the practice. So there's all kinds of options, and it's an exciting time. And there are a lot of lawyers that are in the situation. There's a lot of aging baby boomers. And then the final piece of it that really excites me about doing this kind of work is that it feels like there's a need there. And the need is that, as I've alluded to already, you know, a lot of law firms need to think about these issues from a from an organizational standpoint because the health of the organization will rely on how well law firms continue to Bring up the next generation of talent and and make sure that the clients that they have feel like they're going to continue to be served. Because I mean, you know, we never know how, you know what, how long we're all going to be here on this earth. And I'm not saying that every 70 year old isn't in danger of imminent death. But you know, realistically, if a law firm hasn't done anything, or a lawyer hasn't done anything to sort of lay the groundwork for transitioning clients, and they're 70, you know, they could drop dead from a heart attack the next day. Or they could start to go into some cognitive decline. So thinking these things through on the, on a systemic level is really important for the law firm. And I think what gets in the way of it is that a lot of lawyers are afraid of, of what's going to happen when they aren't going into the office every single day. So I really enjoy helping lawyers to figure that out and address that issue.

Ron Bockstahler  40:54  

Yeah, we don't have time to go into it today. But I think having your back would be great to talk about the mental health. You know, we know there's a lot of addiction and some not so good things that working so hard, and the stress that can come from being a lawyer kind of falls into place into play, it's been addressed a little bit more now. But definitely something I think having a coach would help.

Stephen Seckler  41:16  

There's a lot of work going on in this in this realm, I'm actually going to be doing a webinar, I don't have a date yet, or any information specifically, but people can reach out to me, I'm going to be doing a webinar in the fall on keeping your law firm, healthy, and I'm going to be speaking. And then a woman who runs basically a wellness program where she does, basically wellness coaching and crisis intervention in institutions like, you know, corporations, but also law firms. So there are all kinds of issues that that are getting more attention now. And you know, succession planning what people do with their careers as part of it, just dealing with what you just said, substance abuse is another piece of it. And, you know, it's not all about just working, I mean, even fully cared about was making money, you got to make the machines run properly. And that means paying attention to these issues.

Ron Bockstahler  42:09  

Well, you got to be happy with what you're doing. And if we're happy we can make the world a better place. Right. It's a good starting point. Steve, I want to thank you for joining us today. It's been great talking to me, there's so many things we could talk about. But I think that I think we'll just get I thought we're just getting started. Now we'll have to have another show, I think people need to know that. You know, having a coach someone they can work with is super important. You spent so much money to get to law school, don't stop having someone help you out someone in your corner. And you know, call and get a coach, a counselor, the counselor, you can find Steve that counselor, Counselor calm

Stephen Seckler  42:49  

is actually a counsel to counsel calm,

Ron Bockstahler  42:52  

yeah. He's got a great podcast, I've listened of many of his shows need to tune in to understand what's going on, just give him a call, because I think he can help help you, no matter what stage of your career you're at, he can help you just, you know, either positive reinforcement or say, hey, look, here's what you can do to make it better. But you know, take that extra step and find a way to enjoy what you're doing. You gotta leave the final comments to you.

Stephen Seckler  43:17  

Yeah, no, I agree. It's, you know, life is too short, you know, start doing what you want to do, if you can, I mean, it is a bit of a luxury, but if you could afford the opportunity to, you know, to change the life and try to build the life that you want. There's no reason not to do it.

Ron Bockstahler  43:37  

You know, I can say that my career, you know, I've worked with 1000s of attorneys, with my company. And I've seen so many just quit practicing law, brilliant attorneys, but they were just frustrated. And it really had nothing to do with, with law itself. It had to do with the business side or had to do with, you know, other things that that could have been controlled if they were if they had a coach if they had the right people. And so I just stressed you, instead of getting frustrated, just reach out for some help. And, you know, call Steve, he'll help you out.

Stephen Seckler  44:08  

Well, thanks, Ron, I really appreciate it. And it's been really great meeting you and learning about your services. And I'm excited about your services, because now I have a place to send all these people that are starting their law practices, who want resources like paralegals that they don't necessarily want to hire, but they need on a fractional basis. I think that's a fantastic resource.

Ron Bockstahler  44:29  

And we appreciate that, you know, it took me a long time, just like a lawyer trying to figure out what their career is going to be. But it took me a long time to figure out what, what I wanted to do, and you know, what my company would look like. So I started my company 20 years ago, but it wasn't till 2012 that I really started, you know, working only were exclusive with law firms. And then I realized what I really want to do is I want to make legal services available to everyone in the world at affordable price, but to do that You gotta, you gotta find a way for the attorneys to, you know, be able to do it. And that's what kind of led to what we're doing today. But you know, there's, there's a way to do it. And I'm talking to the attorneys that are working in corporate America that are making, you know, millions and hundreds of millions dollars that we all hear about. Because that's not the majority. 76% of attorneys are with the firm of five or fewer partners, or they're on their own. But it's really hard to be able to afford to give low cost, legal practice and still survive. And I think that's where we're and then we're seeing some sandbox start starting, you know, what we got in Utah, we got in Arizona, California is talking about it. British, Ontario and BC just announced their new programs, that they're trying to adjust the way laws practice. But our vision, or at least my vision was to say, Okay, how do we make it, practicing law a fun thing to do, and you can do it and be successful and still help others. And that's where we came up with it. So, so working with people such as yourself, it just new expands that, that vision? Let's, let's make attorneys help happy, and they'll help other people?

Stephen Seckler  46:08  

Well, I think I think the model that you have is great, because, you know, I think ultimately people that I think a lot of people that do end up in practice by themselves, if they've had the luck and fortune of being trained up by a bigger firm, and they've gotten the training, they end up happier when they're in control of their own destiny, and having a front, you know, fractional resources that they can buy from someone like you, or an office that you know, they don't have to spend a fortune on. You know that really, and just buy what they need. That really does make it a lot more affordable. And the old model of you have to hire somebody to do everything. I mean, technology. There's so many ways to run a practice so much more efficiently now.

Ron Bockstahler  46:49  

Times have changed. We know that people say in law, things don't change fast, but COVID has really accelerated and a lot of things in law change. So I don't see things naturally going back to the way they were so. Yep. Well, thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening, everyone. You've been listening to the 1958 lawyer. We appreciate it and we look forward to talking to you again real soon.
 

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

McKenna is the founder of Law x Design, a legal practice that focuses on entrepreneurs, artists and start-ups. In this episode, she talks about encouraging clients to think with a legal mindset to protect themselve’s from liability. She also talks about how people are all unique, and the best way to keep clients is to acknowledge that they’re all individuals and to dedicate a lot of time on networking. The mental health state of younger lawyers were also discussed and what we can do to improve it. They also talked about the current experience of women in law and what changes McKenna wants to see in the future of the business of law. 

Timestamps:

• Getting clients into a legal state of mind and the “algorithm” of people - how to maintain your client-base (0:50)
• State of the mental health of younger lawyers (11:53)
• The current experience of women in law (17:53)
• Lawyers as trusted business advisors (26:31)

“getting out and making connections... you can't put an algorithm on when you're talking to another person so basically 'networking, networking, networking' is the answer and you can't do it within the four walls of your home...    reaching people is about gathering” - McKenna Prohov

McKenna Prohov

Website: https://www.lawxdesign.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mckenna-prohov-05452050/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawxdesign_/?hl=en]

McKenna Prohov, Law X Design Principle Attorney/Founder

Business Law

McKenna is the Founder of Law by Design (Law X Design), a Chicago based legal practice that focuses on entrepreneurs, artists, and startups. She has cross-functional experience working on a variety of business initiatives primarily related to joint-venture business expansion opportunities, tech licensing and e-commerce issues. Over 2 years experience handling contract process for company’s business operations, including reviewing and drafting terms that facilitate consensus and comply with applicable regulatory frameworks. Work across departments to identify risks in contracts, data services, and consumer protection. Contracts and compliance experience handling legal and business matters in business-solutions oriented environment. Collaborative and self-directed team member in driving process for structuring, drafting, and reviewing licensing, technology, intellectual property, and non-disclosure agreements, as well as pre-litigation documents.

LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mckenna-prohov-05452050/

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

Episode Transcript:

Ron Bockstahler  0:23  

Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. I am your host, Ron box dollar. And with us today is McKenna Prohov. McKenna is the founder of law by design, a Chicago based legal practice that focuses on entrepreneurs, artists, and startups, McKenna, welcome to the show. You know, this is a really interesting area of law, you're dealing with a lot of creative types, individuals that are on their own. So let's kick it off talking about how you get your clients into a legal state of mind to use legal agreements versus a handshake, which is very common in this industry.

McKenna Prohov  1:02  

I think that the positive way to spend, you know, kind of getting a legal agreement behind your transaction, whether that is a contract, or maybe you know, making a partnership by operating agreement official or something, what it's doing is saying, Hey, I take you seriously enough, or I respect you enough to invest in getting something written down, that really speaks to the realness of what we're doing.

Ron Bockstahler  1:28  

Right? You almost want to say, what insurance got because like for insurance, like if you're a designer, or Gosh, think of even even an architect of some type, you get liabilities out there. So if you if your parents not going to cover it, if it's not in writing, I'm guessing anyway. So is that one way to talk to your clients? Like if you can't get the insurance to cover any malpractice or any concerns? Is that one of the things that you want to throw out there?

McKenna Prohov  1:52  

Yes, definitely, you totally can be liable. And, and even if it's not your fault, and it's with an architect, higher liability, right, higher risk, higher reward with an interior designer, their relative risk reward on a project, you know, maybe a bit lower, a little bit less liability, but but it's still there. And not only that, but even if something isn't your fault, you very likely will be named in a conflict. And that's still time and you know, your time and fees and petty, and, you know, possibly kind of emotional, or business fallout from right, follow up the relationship or something. So it is good to look at those things to make, you know, for any kind of professional to make clear, right, that's where an attorney can be on their side. And, you know, look out in a contract to kind of carve out those liabilities, liabilities and just say, hey, just so we're clear, client of mine, you know, other person, I'm not liable for these things, if something happens, you have to, you know, you go different avenue, or I'm not, you know, I'm not liable for more than the amount of the proceeds from insurance, if it's when it comes to insurance, or you just exclude yourself, you know, you agree to exclude yourself from certain things entirely, like any consequential just know that working professional is not going to be responsible in that case.

Ron Bockstahler  3:10  

50, I've read some studies about entrepreneurs, we're gonna see a lot more entrepreneurs, especially as we're coming out of this pandemic, which I would think would open up your client base opera. Yeah. Yeah. And word of mouth is how you're getting your business now. But I mean, how are you going to be able to bring on? I mean, how are you going to reach more people, as you're moving away?

McKenna Prohov  3:31  

Well, it's funny, I was thinking about this this morning, before before our talk. And one thing that I think and that, you know, I've been finding, and I think the answer to this is getting out and making connections. I mean, I've been struck by the power of, of connecting with people IRL, in real life, as we've been fortunate enough in this country in this state recently, to have things open back at backup, after the pandemic, the networking events that I have attended. I've just been, you know, blown away by the result of the unplanned, you know, spontaneous and collaborative conversation, just literally putting your body in a position to meet another human being, and learn something and have to say, you know, what it is that you want and need and have someone generate, you know, based on their experience in their network, an avenue that might benefit you or be mutually beneficial. So there to me, you know, there, that's never, that's always been the case. And that always will be the case. And it's because it speaks to something fundamental about who we are. And it's one of the reasons why I was thinking about this too. And I was like, you know, I would totally back this up in front of Ilan, but Scott would totally say this and go like, if you disagreed, I would go head to head This statement, which is that that's why still today, there is no computer that comes close to the power of the human brain. So the human brain is, is the, the most super super, you know, computer that's ever existed. And it is exactly for that reason, what I'm talking to you about that there's something you can't put an algorithm on when you're when you're talking to another person, and, you know, the thoughts that are generated as a result of those conversations. So basically, you know, networking, networking, networking, is the answer, and just, you can't do it within the four walls of your home, we, you know, are in a place where we can facilitate and expand opportunities through technology, but that cannot be the the only way there is something you couldn't network and have it be nearly the same rich, tapestry, you know, on the phone and on our computer, as as it is when you go out. So reaching people, you know, is about gathering, I guess, this is a really long answer to your question, but we must gather and, and we will gather because people crave that and you know, the wonderful thing about options, and when times are good, right? When we're all fortunate to, to live through good times, which means, you know, our country's not in a state of war, we are not at a pandemic, you know, barring those things. We, as individuals can choose how much we want to engage with those things, hopefully, they will be going on. And you know, for for one week, you know, McKenna might feel like she needs more rest and stay home, but Ron might say, Hey, I'm gonna Yeah, I'm gonna check out that event tonight, you know, at five o'clock, and it's, it's great. And we can all right, dip in and out. It's not about going, going, going and forcing yourself it's about opportunity. And making sure that you're that you're really getting FaceTime.

Ron Bockstahler  7:03  

So let me kind of bring up a whole nother point. So let's kind of look bank into do we come back to the office? Do we stay out of the office is a mix? Yeah, where do you see it going?

McKenna Prohov  7:14  

Well, I think I guess I'm gonna take the easy way out by saying, you know, I think that I think that options are cheap, because here's the thing I, what I'm talking about when when, when the thing that happens, and I don't, I haven't heard of a real succinct, you know, I'm not a scientist, I haven't heard, I'm sure there exist, I haven't heard a real great way of saying, you know, talking about what that process is, I just know that it happens, we all know, you know, we experienced that when we talk to each other in person, when we meet up, it's hard to put words, you know, on that phenomenon, but, but because of that, it is important for people who work together to see each other, you know, in person. And I think that employers do have a real valid concern, or vested interest in having their employees work, right, in a space because of that, because, you know, employers know that, at the same time, I think that in some ways that that can be, that's also not entirely how it works, because there's a lot of power in choice. Think that the opportunity for a team, for example, to do what they need to do, or to have that experience should maybe be more productive, because they're meeting together doesn't necessarily have to be because an employer told them that it was going to take place in a certain, you know, very expensive location, you know, somewhere, that team can absolutely accomplish that in a lot of different ways. And so I think just expanding the way we think about people meeting, because, you know, I'm not we're not doing it, I don't really believe in everyone working in isolation in their home, behind a computer solely, but but neither do I think that they need to be required to work in an office space for as many logging as many hours there, as has traditionally been done. And in fact, I think that that can start to cut against the productivity that I'm talking about where we're together, you know, in some ways people might check out in that situation, right, and they're not as effective. So I think, and I don't know if you agree, but I think the conversation is already there about something in between, right? People are like, Oh, well, maybe, yeah, let's meet up but maybe not in the same way. That's the word.

Ron Bockstahler  9:36  

Do you think this is going to be generational? Is it going to be different between different generations?

McKenna Prohov  9:42  

I don't know. You know, I could see it but but in my personal experience, normally I would say yes, because I think there's a big difference between like this generation and just the one before it, but in the working from home. I've heard a lot me personally of people from both generations say that they enjoyed it. So I don't know that the pressure to gather in office again, the same way pre pandemic, it will be coming from the generation that had the longer experience, right having to be they're having to work in an office X amount of hours per week, you know, show up. I actually don't see that. I just feel like they wouldn't even really be surprised anymore. They're almost like, okay, yeah, this is the thing now, like, what this is the way it's going, this is the conversation.

Ron Bockstahler  10:35  

I love what you're saying, because I'm seeing the same thing. I'm seeing what I'm going to call the 50 and older generations, right, that have embraced, enjoying kinda not coming in. And it really surprised me. I mean, look, I'm a traditionalist, I came into the office every day, and I'm in that 50 and older category. But honestly, I'm looking at it going, I kind of enjoy working from home spending more time with my family. Yeah. But like you said, I do like coming in occasionally, and going to the events and doing things of that nature. But I'm finding some of the people younger than me, are coming in even more, because maybe they're isolated at home.

McKenna Prohov  11:14  

Yes. Yeah. You know, we're such individuals, I think we need to remember that every every single person is an individual, you know, experiencing different things. And I think you're right, that's absolutely a factor. I mean, some people for some people living alone, I think having to be home only to work was was incredibly difficult. And so I think that there needs to be right. Yes, space, like the opportunity to gather to come in, for sure. But maybe not the requirement. And maybe that's the difference. And I you know,

Ron Bockstahler  11:53  

we've mentioned mental health, or we didn't, I think you might have wrote something about it. And I was reading that, and I'm thinking to myself, let's chat about mental health and how it's affected the lawyers, the younger generation, you people younger than me, the attorneys that are younger than me, and how, how their mental health is the state of their mental health coming out of this pandemic? And what do we need to do to improve that? Because, you know, we've already had major issues in the legal industry. Yep. in mental health, and for years ignored it. Yes. So, you know, give me your thoughts on mental health?

McKenna Prohov  12:23  

Well, I think it's just what you said, first of all, it's been, sadly, lawyers have been so adversely impacted by poor mental health. And I was talking to a business coach recently about this, who is a practicing lawyer as well, and said, You know, I don't think it has to be that way, though, doesn't in terms of how we can do better by not ignoring it, and being, you know, creating resources for, for attorneys. So that that is totally, you know, has nothing to do with a pandemic, and needs to be right in practice and in place, in any time. But, you know, anyone who I think was, so say, you're a lawyer, and you was adversely, you know, impacting your mental health, pre pandemic, it probably was exacerbated, you know, during the pandemic, and your question, what do we need to do? Now? I think that's such a good question. But I kind of think it's the same thing that I hope was happening a little bit before the pandemic, which is, you know, for example, bar associations, bringing this to light and, and being, you know, something like a bar association being kind of a leader. In that way, for lawyers writer or somewhere where lawyers can connect or being kind of someone that even if you're not a member, every lawyer is aware of their state bar, such you know, Association, those associations are also responsible for, like continuing legal education credit. So if you only engage with your association, for that reason, you probably every lawyer has, you know, has some kind of contact with their Bar Association. So those are real good places to start. You know, having talks about it, webinars or in person meetings, or seeing what they can do to, right, engage with professionals, like therapists to come and talk about these things, and to say, hey, if you are wondering where some resources are, for these kinds of things, if you're experiencing something, here they are, and I've been encouraged, I'm actually attending a conference for for lawyers and mental health through my State Bar Association in Illinois in the fall. And so, you know, just that and I'm just one person and it's, you know, this is an anecdote, but it's, but to me that, you know, I'm encouraged by that. And so I just think we need to do to do more and, and we can all do our part. I mean, I you know, I just as an individual, I can write about this right, somebody might read it, just to know that we're all thinking and talking about it, I think, you know, helps people to feel more connected less alone. And to instead of like suppressing what they might be going through to say, you know what, it's not like I even have to tell anyone, but like, maybe for me, I should reach out to someone to address this, and I need some help, you know, and I can talk to a mental health professional

Ron Bockstahler  15:22  

pandemic, has it been a catalyst to make changes in the legal industry, which is notoriously slow to change?

McKenna Prohov  15:30  

Yeah, I think so. I think that it has, you know, brought to light, that there's been a reckoning on that level, maybe with what it means to just be a person. And to experience, you know, that it matters, what you experienced on a on a day to day that you might have been able to think up, you know, more about what, what your values are. Think about new ways of doing things. So if you were in a traditional, I guess what I would call a traditional legal practice environment with, you know, high billables, or six minute increment, you know, billables, two examples of things that lead to, you know, high stress, or maybe just, you know, hopefully not, but maybe worked with someone, you know, coming from a different place or mentality who was a little bit of a toxic employer who was less of a mentor and someone who employed you, but you know, really was because they have a vested interest, right, and making money and I get it, but really squeezing you as a person and kind of right, causing that stress. And I think that you're right, the legal profession has been slow to change. But like with so many things, I do think that the pandemic has been a catalyst for looking at those things, which aren't necessarily specific to law and lawyers, but have been very entrenched in the legal world. And, you know, I just from my own standpoint, I can tell you conversations with, you know, my peers, whether they're with a firm or they're on their own, just the fact that they are, you know, they're placing a high value, they're placing a premium on the way that they feel now, and I mean, that in a good way, I don't mean that they walk into a place of employment and expect that place to make them feel good. You know, it's, it's not like that, what I mean is that it's more of a self, you know, self awareness in a good way, what what do I want to need? How can I change this, I can continue to be a lawyer, but you know, to do it in a way that is better for me as an individual, or just to, you know, feel much more confident and comfortable walking out of the situation that doesn't work and saying, you know, what, I have skills, and I have something to offer. And if I go to work every day, and I'm, you know, I'm being treated badly, I am going to leave. So those are the kinds of things. Yeah, let's

Ron Bockstahler  17:53  

let's bounce around a little bit. It seems like that's what we're doing today. Let's talk about women in law. Because what you said, This made me think of, alright, it's a bad situation, I should leave. But that's not historically what's happened. Right? When this is over? Do we have short memories? And we go back to the way it used to be?

McKenna Prohov  18:11  

I don't think so. I think that that's what the prerogative of every generation to learn and grow and do it differently. That's what it means to be a different generation, you know, things move in different directions. And I think it is, and it and it, and that that won't go away. And, you know, I think that, me personally, I think that it's better than ever for women in law. I'm inspired by my peers, my female peers in law, I don't see women. You know, as far as the big firms, I'm not, you know, I haven't worked in one. And I don't know, if women are leaving at the same rate, I'm not sure that those numbers have changed much. So traditionally, in those environments, what they have found is that while they start with a, you know, a 50/51, to five to seven year, you know, associate class, that number drops significantly, there are, you know, way fewer females at the partner equity partner level. I can't speak to that I haven't, like I said, Never been employed by big law. But for all the rest of it, for all the other firms, and there are so many, it's not just big law, I see women thriving. And I think that that has a lot to do with with community and cultural support behind, right that lawyers are people to just like everyone, everyone is a person no matter what you're doing. So when you start thinking about it in terms of that you can really start to make the experience better.

Ron Bockstahler  19:48  

So start shaming big law firms when they continue to have a ceiling on the income of women.

McKenna Prohov  19:54  

Yeah, I think you know, it's so I went to a conference. This statistic I just, I just quoted to you went to a conference that was relatively recently. I mean, I think within the last five years where they said look like here's where big loss failing is that women, you know, at the at the higher levels are leaving, and it's and it's just men and there aren't as many partners or Equity Partners. I think that's still true. That's why I say I just, you know, I went there relatively recently within the last like, few years. And so I don't think it's changed in a few years. And I do think that that's something that, that we can criticize, they really need to look at that. And look at why and what they can do to so that that, you know, isn't the case anymore. It's just not, it's just seems so outdated to me to have that kind of phenomenon occurring. Where you get to any level and you see kind of one type of person in a leadership position. There's reason not good.

Ron Bockstahler  20:54  

You, we could talk marketing and websites and photos that we see in the majority of law firms. And it's, let's face it, it's a white group of white guys. Right, and they're in very nice suits. And that's the, that's the lead. That's what you go to the websites that you see on a billboard, it's still pretty prevalent. That's what everyone's seen. And then I think it's time to change that.

McKenna Prohov  21:18  

Yeah, I do, too. I absolutely do, too. And I think the first step is awareness. And like, like this podcast, I mean, this is just, it helps with that. And also, right, just that we're talking about it in other spaces and other legal spaces to at, you know, bar association meetings, things like that. Because the first, the very first steps changing any problem is being aware of it.

Ron Bockstahler  21:41  

Yeah, I think it's 100%. Right? I think it's very people are, it's on top, it's on my mind, right. And I'm an old white guy. So it's got to be on so many other people's minds. Also, at least, that's how I'm looking at it. So hopefully, we'll continue to talk about it. Let's go back to about your firm a little bit. And let's kind of let's let our listeners know the things that you can do for their potential their friends, their clients that they can't do for them.

McKenna Prohov  22:03  

Yeah, I really, I see myself as a trusted business advisor I love. I'm very business oriented and love helping my clients, you know, strategize and think about, I can bring the legal lens perspective on building, you know, a business and growing it in a good way. So, for example, I'm constantly finding that my conversations are dipping in and out of business decisions, and something that is just illegal trademark is a really good example. You know, when I'm talking, I can advise on what makes a strong mark, or a weak mark, but then that kind of leads into the conversation of, well, how do you build a strong mark, you know, that's something that as a business owner, you could be like, be sitting around the round table with your team, you know, talking about a lawyer wouldn't have to be there. But when it comes to protecting, then it's like, oh, you call your lawyer, and your lawyer says, Oh, well, wait a minute, you know, I have some, I have to tell you about this. So you can't just create anything, I have to tell you about what would be right, able to be protected or not. So something I really liked doing is really making a connection with my clients, getting to know them, you know, listening a lot about what they want to do, and just being willing to spend the time to help them or to get to know them to figure out, you know, their particular issue. And I always say, you know, I can give you the legal, the legal side of it. But I will also talk to you about, you know, the, sort of the larger, you know, issue going on, and I love to do that. And that's why I love being in the startup space. And it's just, it's been a really good fit. I often tell my clients, you know, I'm starting up alongside with you. So I can relate, you know, it's, I'm yeah, I'm, you know, growing, trying to grow, and I don't mean grow by like, expand by get employees, you know, a ton of employees, but I mean, grow my practice to keep going to keep working with people like you I say, I'm doing that. And that's those are the same feelings and the things going on there are the same for you if you're trying to grow. Oh, I don't know. Yeah, like a new, you know, nail salon or something like that. So it's really,

Ron Bockstahler  24:09  

what about alternative fee arrangements? Do you work with the clients on alternative fee? Are is everything billable hour? I mean,

McKenna Prohov  24:16  

I am all alternative? I am so flexible. And something I've been thinking about recently, Ron, too, is I think that there is a shift and needs to be maybe to think about lawyers. So I'm going to speak to lawyers a little bit more now. By saying, you know, maybe think about what you know, versus the time that you're spending on something and I like, you know, I don't have all the answers. I don't think that there's one way to say okay, you know, I'm gonna charge like this and never change it. But I really do think that lawyers bring tremendous value, you know, to their clients. And really what you want to get paid for is what you know. And so when you start thinking that or thinking that way, then you know that there are a lot Different ways to do it, and I, I'm flexible, I never want to lose business. So I want my clients to know that I will work for them. So I do have an hourly rate. But I have worked flat fees, and I've done service caps as well.

Ron Bockstahler  25:14  

Okay. One thing is, you know, as an entrepreneur, and having started a few companies, I always think, man, I would love to have the attorney in those early meetings. So we're strategizing. And they understand where we're coming from. And then when we got to put this into paper, you know, it's easier, and they understand the flavor of what we're trying to accomplish. But I don't want to pay that hourly fee. Right, in that that I think holds back so many afternoons to say, hey, let me bring the attorney and when I should bring him in? Because I frankly, I can't I can't afford it.

McKenna Prohov  25:41  

Yeah, exactly. I think you're exactly right. And I never I don't want people to think like that. And I think that that's why I mean, I've never just told a client, this is my hourly rate. And that's it. I've literally have never done that. I let them know. I like I said, I do have one. And there are instances when I might just be keeping track of my time depending on what the service is or the work. But I let them know that and everything else is. You know, like you said an alternative situation, I think that that would be the very best for business owners. And for someone starting up is to say, yeah, call the attorney, like they're going to be part of our business team. You know, they're not some like stuffies, sterile, like person to deal with at arm's length that I have to, you know, deal with my business, they should very much be sort of part of the team.

Ron Bockstahler  26:31  

Yeah, absolutely. Let me let's kind of break it down. Our last final question. I always like to ask guests, and then I'll give you know, if anything you want to add would be what's the one thing you want to see changed in the business of law going forward?

McKenna Prohov  26:45  

The sooner that clients, the sooner that the business community thinks of lawyers as a trusted business adviser, who, you know, is a key ingredient, in growing their business in a good way, the better and your podcasts is helping with that. Awesome, anything you want to add for our listeners before we have to go? Just that it's been really enjoyable. And then you know, I probably should do this podcast today with you. And I probably made this clear. But in case I didn't I love talking to and meeting new people. So you know, I am available and it would love to have any kind of meeting with anyone so they pick it back. I'm

Ron Bockstahler  27:35  

not ready to go yet. I got one other question. It was curious question. And I know you're you're kind of focused on creatives. And in the entrepreneur world, you do some marketing on Instagram, which I think is unique to a lot of law firms. Is there a reason you chose Instagram? Is it just your clientele you feel around that? That medium?

McKenna Prohov  27:54  

Yes, it's both. I do you know, a lot of artists have an accounts. And but really, that kind of goes into you know, what the real answer is, is that Instagram is the most heavily used platform out there right now. And so if you're going to do if you're going to engage with one social media platform, I would say it should be Instagram and in fact through private messaging on Instagram I have engaged with clients so I would recommend it and and that was me choosing Instagram was was through my research on on finding out what people are on the most.  

Ron Bockstahler  28:30  

Wow, that's interesting. Well McKenna thanks for joining us. We've been listening to talking to you and mechanic pro hope you can reach mckennitt law by design. That's www law ex design calm. Hello, thanks so much for joining us today really appreciate having on the show and wish you all luck in the future.

McKenna Prohov  28:48  

Thanks so much, Ron. been a pleasure.  

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Corinne Cantwell Heggie is a Principal at Wochner Law Firm LLC and she specializes in estate planning. She advocates to protect your property, regardless of your marital status, your age, your income level or your tax bracket. Corinne gave a general overview of estate planning on why it’s important and who it is for. They also talked about the benefits of joining a Bar association and how it can help you sharpen your skills and build your network.

She also talked about simple tech that really makes serving clients more convenient and safer in the pandemic and what kind of technological advances will lawyers need moving forward in order to connect with clients and partners better. 

Timestamps:

• An overview of estate planning and how you can protect your assets (6:06)
• Infusing technology in the estate planning practice (11:20)
• Why powers of attorney, health care and property, and having your own living will is important 16:20)
• The benefits of joining a Bar Association as an attorney(19:45)
• Breaking the glass ceiling as a young lawyer (32:54)

Quote:

“No one’s going to care as much about you and your career as you are”

“You have to build up the ability to be like a legal ninja. But at the same time, you got to stick up your hand and ask for opportunities”

“What is the worst someone’s going to say? ‘No’? That’s fine, ‘no’ is just ‘no’ for right now. It’s not ‘no’ forever.” 

-Corinne Cantwell Heggie

Corinne Cantwell Heggie

Website: https://www.wochnerlawfirm.com/corinne-heggie

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corinne-cantwell-heggie-04b27b16a/

Corinne Cantwell Heggie, Principal at Wochner Law Firm LLC

Estate Planning 

Corinne is an attorney in Wochner Law Firm LLC who specializes in estate planning. She prepares wills, trusts, powers of attorney and other planning documents and assists with estate and trust administration. She counsels and drafts corporate documents on behalf of her clients in order to protect them from asset loss and court battles. 

Corinne has practiced as a BigLaw partner and counsel at Chicago’s largest majority women-owned law firm. She is licensed in Illinois and Missouri and can appear before the United States Supreme Court and federal courts located throughout the midwest. 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corinne-cantwell-heggie-04b27b16a/

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

Episode Transcript:

Ron Bockstahler  0:29  

Welcome to the show. I'm your co host Ron box seller.

Kirsten Mayfield  0:31  

And I'm Kirsten Mayfield and we have with us today Corinne Cantwell Heggie she's principal with Walker law firm. She's been an attorney for 20 years, and she's one of those powerful women in law. We love talking to you on this podcast. In 2020, Chicago lawyer at Chicago daily law bulletin had its inaugural class of the 50 salute women in law. crin was one of those named before woessner, she worked in big law and she was counsel at the largest majority female in law firm in Chicago, which is very cool. She was also the immediate past president of the woman's Bar Association of Illinois. But I would be remiss not to also speak about what she does, as an attorney and she specializes in estate planning. She's an advocate to protect your property, regardless of your marital status, your age, your income level, your tax bracket, which is a great and worthy cause I've known so many people who have not been able to grieve properly because they were suddenly mistake planning. And that's insane to me. Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  1:33  

Well, Kirsten, thanks for that introduction. Thanks for having me. And Ron. Also, thanks to you for having me.

Kirsten Mayfield  1:38  

Now, I have to say you've got a very important other role you are the merit badge counselor for your boy scout troop, troop 156. Shout out to everybody that I'm sure the boys are all going to listen to this. So what are some of your favorite merit badges?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  1:55  

Yes, um, well, I have a few my love all the citizenship in the nation in your community badges just because it really allows the young man because we only have men in our in our troop right now, to get out into their community and see how it works, who's behind it, learn about the village, how it runs. I also like the merit badges that speak to things that I really kind of like to do, I can one comes to mind is the art merit badge, which is really great. And you can do it virtually, which has been a plus, with a lot of the museums, giving access to certain exhibits or resonant exhibits that they have online.

Kirsten Mayfield  2:36  

That's so cool. You know, I okay, so I went to film on I love Boy Scouts, my little brothers both by Boy Scouts, my oldest little brother gotten his Eagle Scout, just tons of fun. But, uh, you know, I didn't think about how being in Boy Scouts and having these virtual opportunities during the pandemic, that's so lovely, and wonderful. And something that's like, if you're a parent, you're dealing with trying to get them to school and all this having the ability to do these extracurriculars. Virtually that's, that was probably like really good for those those kids.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  3:10  

Yeah, I agree. Carson has kind of been a game changer was really last spring, when at least are part of our sliver of the world was really locked down. It gave something for our household, because I have two scouts to do and kind of, I don't want to say pass the time, but collectively work towards something that didn't relate to getting the schoolwork turned in, and the tests submitted. So it was definitely a silver lining and was wonderful that we were able to find ways to continue to move forward with the merit badges and go through the coursework in a virtual setting. And thanks to the museums, for instance, with respect to the art merit badge, and then you know the citizenship series of badges with the people who helped make our government local and state and federal Ron,

Kirsten Mayfield  4:04  

you almost sound like Leslie Knope with Parks and Rec with the community merit badge

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  4:09  

too. I love that. People, I just think it's so important to understand how your community works. And, you know, the boys aren't paying taxes, but why there's this infrastructure. And then it always culminates when you're talking with me with the fact that we live in a democracy, that we are so privileged to have a vote and that you've got a vote. Got to do it.

Kirsten Mayfield  4:33  

Yeah. It's good, good skills to to embody people went

Ron Bockstahler  4:38  

well, I'm glad there was good scout activity going on during the lockdowns that we had going on.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  4:44  

has a lot of great adults who give a lot of time and energy and guidance to these young men. And I mean, I'll just say it again. It was really nice, at least in our house to have something to work towards together. That was Fine, you were learning something but you didn't really know you were doing it and wasn't related

Ron Bockstahler  5:05  

to, to school. Though I would say this past winter is the first time in at least four years that I haven't been out there polar bear camping trying to get those badges for the boys. So

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  5:16  

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you don't even need a polar bear camp. I mean, I have two of my my guys are going camping this weekend. And ironically, we're talking about it last night at dinner. My middle guy said, you know, right before lockdown, they went to star rock, because it was a camp out weekend. And he froze his toes off, it was so cold. So you don't have to go look and fire for a polar bear experience, certainly in Illinois. What's north of 80?

Ron Bockstahler  5:49  

Let's jump into estate planning, having you on the show made me feel a little guilty as I haven't completed my estate planning documents, renewed estate planning documents. So talk to us about estate planning a little bit. And let's talk about how to get clients like me to actually complete the process.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  6:06  

I love to talk about that, Ron. So thanks for asking. You know, I think estate planning is something that's a big behemoth, and maybe an elephant in the room for a lot of people. So when you work with our firm, we really try to make it easy and accessible for a couple of reasons. One, it's really not about your mortality, it's about your legacy. And making sure you have control of where your hard earned assets, whatever they are, get to where they need to go or where you want them to go. And to it estate planning. It's just not for high net worth, high tax bracket. People who are married, it couldn't be further from the truth. If you own property, I don't care if it's a savings account, I don't care if it's a 401k I don't care if it's a bond you received. For your first communion. There are tools for you to protect it to make sure one you can name someone to help you make decisions about that property. If you're living and you can't do it, and to where you want it to go when you're not here. So that's what we focus on at our office really helping people understand that it's, you know, kind of debunking it or flipping the script on estate planning, and trying to make it easy and accessible.

Kirsten Mayfield  7:31  

So in the the mode of that Ron says he hasn't gotten his stuff in order, I'm younger than him. I don't even like what is what is my property? What What do I have? Because I you know, I rent an apartment, I don't have land, I don't have a house. So to me, I don't need to get anything in order. But I do have the items you just mentioned.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  7:53  

Yeah, so kearson a great tool for you would be a property power of attorney that would allow you to name someone you know, like and trust, to make decisions and help you manage that property. If you were living and you are unable to do it, that can be very powerful. There's a lot of wealth that is accumulated in deferred income plans. So 401 K's 403, B's, IRAs, SEP IRA, Sep 401, K's and even if you don't do trust planning, okay. With a power of attorney, you can name someone who can make decisions about that property about that wealth. If you're living in you can't do it yourself. I mean, that's huge. And in Illinois, that lawmakers have a form for you to follow.

Kirsten Mayfield  8:51  

I never thought about it, but like, let's say I was unable all of a sudden I you know, I would assume they'd say oh yeah, like husband can handle it. But that's not necessarily the case.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  9:04  

Well, the law will tell you what batting order who's going to bat and when. But typically, these situations Kiersten and Ron are not like low stress, unemotional if someone is coming to have to make these decisions for you, or, or you know, you're out of commission. It's a it's a who's on first kind of situation. So with a property power of attorney, you can have that batting order set. So there's no confusion. But to your point Kiersten they might get to your husband, they might get to your parents, they might get to your adult child. But that's going to depend on how energized the person at your bank, the HR department at your employer, if it's an HR if it's an employer provided 401 K is energized to help your team how Spin family. And that means, you know, child, spouse, partner, whomever, get answers so they can get into the driver's seat.

Kirsten Mayfield  10:11  

Yeah. And that's the last thing anyone wants to do when they're trying to deal with their emotions and life that just drastically changed.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  10:20  

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I see it, I know it. I know it. And even in situations where people have, you know, they've got their close with their siblings, or they, you know, they have a spouse. Every bank is different. And that's not bad or good. It's just a fact, every life insurance company is different, every HR department is different. Have the documents setup so that person knows where the document is. And two can say, here's the property power of attorney, here is the the representation that this person cannot make these decisions. I'm in the driver's seat, please send me anything you need for me to accept this role to put the hat on my head. But let's get rolling.

Ron Bockstahler  11:03  

So talk a little about how you infuse technology into your firm, because this is a personal area of law as it is for me, I mean, you know, I haven't done mine, because there's like 24 different documents, it's a little overwhelming, if I'm not sitting with my attorney in person going through

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  11:20  

a grade. So we have tried to incorporate technology. And I will say we have. And for better or for worse, the pandemic helped us kind of normalize its use in terms of connecting and keeping up with clients, we are looking forward to being able to get back in person with our clients. But I think for legacy clients that have been with the firm, we brought them along, and they may have had that opportunity to talk with us and meet us in person. So it's just more getting them comfortable with. I'm still current over zoom, or I'm still Korean, over FaceTime. I'm still Korean and Google meets. And I do think where it's been something that has been normalized because of COVID. With new clients, right? New engagements, it's it might take one or two meetings, to see if we're going to be a fit for that person. And we recognize we're not a fit for everyone. But we found it to be extremely helpful and actually help us bring our clients align, not because we said hey, you've got to use technology, but because we got to be able to do this to help serve you. And we want to serve you.

Ron Bockstahler  12:42  

So in when we talk technology, are you using some kind of a secured? How do you share documents, I guess that's what I want to know,

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  12:50  

was secure was secured PDFs. I mean, we're on a cloud and our cloud is secured and backed up. So that's how we do file, you know, file management. And we do have when we're not we're not paperless, it would be great to be paperless. But our paper footprint, because we're in the cloud has greatly diminished. So with secure PDFs, and we leverage and if you know someone can't do a secure PDF, we'll do you know, we'll work with whatever platform they have. We're pretty nimble in that regard. We'll meet the we want it to be easy for the clients. So if they're using a different method, or they're comfortable with Dropbox, great, we'll go there if that's where you want to be,

Ron Bockstahler  13:32  

or what signatures are required in real estate planning documents.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  13:37  

Yeah, so that's a great question. We were really lucky because in March of last year, Governor Pritzker signed a an emergency order to allow virtual notaries to take place, you know, there were about 10 criteria. And if you satisfy them, you were able to continue to, you know, do business with papers that require notarized signatures, that actually is that was codified and became law, which is great in July. A lot of documents they'll run still require what signatures but we leverage digital where we can, which is not, you know, it's not as many as that a closing like a real estate closing. But I still think if anyone's done a real estate closing the buyers because they're working with the lenders, most of the most of the time. They they have to be there and provide witness signatures on on, you know, two inch stack of documents, so they're not gone. Totally obsolete, but the virtual Notary has really helped kind of lower the lower the hurdle there. Yeah, I think

Ron Bockstahler  14:46  

funny you mentioned buying a house we did we refight our condo, and they sent someone to our home to do all the documents, or at least they scheduled that but then at that period of time in the condos in Indiana You actually have have a witness. So they had to reschedule at his office, and we had to physically go there, which I thought was just crazy. But and I think they've since rescinded that law, you don't need a witness, but during that short period of time, how things change?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  15:17  

Yeah, I mean, that's I will say, I am glad you brought up the witness piece rod. Because when people try and do it yourself, or go online and get these documents completed, you know, if you don't dot the i's and cross your T's and crossing a t would be witnesses, how many witnesses are required? What are the requirements for a witness? Right? That's where, you know, you can sign documents that might not necessarily work when you need them to.

Ron Bockstahler  15:46  

Let's talk about like, so we got a lot of attorneys listening. And that's one of the bigger issues where attorneys don't actually go and do their own estate planning documents don't have a living well, you know, what are the basic minimum that they at least need to have in place today, no matter what age they are?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  16:01  

Right? Well, we've kind of talked about a property power of attorney which is going to allow you to name someone to handle your property via bank accounts. 401k is real estate, sign your tax return, if you're living and you cannot do it yourself. Staying in that property lane, a will is really important, even if you don't have children, because in Illinois, a will is where you will articulate or identify the guardians for your minor children. But more importantly, a will allows you to identify your property where you want it to go be at an individual individuals a charity, and when you're not here, and critically. So critically, identify an executor. And state that that executor if he or she or they have to go to court to probate an asset, they can be excused to have to pay a bond. I mean, the number three and four should probably be one and two, in the order of I mean, that is a huge, a huge way to eliminate confusion and asset depreciation, because you've got to pay the bond to get to court. And the judges often not going to excuse it, if it doesn't say in black and white, and you're well. So that's why I was important. And then I'm going to I'm going to switch into the healthcare lane not because I'm a doctor, but because you need to sign a healthcare power of attorney so you can name someone who can help your your medical team, make decisions for your medical treatment if you're living and you can't make those decisions yourself. So at the very least you need powers of attorney health care and property and a well.

Ron Bockstahler  17:43  

Yeah, the living will always someone to help the doctors because you don't want to put that pressure on your family members or, you know, that just a lot of stress to put on a family member lamport

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  17:55  

Yeah, well, well put, I can't that's it. So never easy. It's never not stressful, if someone has to make medical decisions for you.

Ron Bockstahler  18:05  

Let's kind of jump into you've built a great career. I guess, first of all, why did you go into this area of law?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  18:11  

it's so rewarding to help people unravel a question or an issue that they have been unable to solve or haven't been able to get a practical answer to.

Ron Bockstahler  18:24  

Okay, did you practice in other areas? Because you were with the big firm prior to and on your way to your own firm with your husband?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  18:32  

Right? Yeah, I've had the benefit and the great fortune, I think of working in a large national law firm, and then a a boutique majority women owned firm. And I've always enjoyed working with individuals. And I had along the way over my career, I've always done work with individuals, but because of the nature of where I practice, I did a lot of work with corporate legal departments. And, and in all lanes, the counseling, pre litigation, settlement and litigation. And I think that gives me an ability to see issues from a 360 degree standpoint. But I have to say from day one, it was always great to work with individuals or families or or business owners who you know, started the business or came into a business and and were able to make it soar and grow.

Ron Bockstahler  19:28  

In your career. you utilize you been very involved with Bar Association, your immediate past president of the woman's Bar Association of Illinois, can you let's talk about how that's helped your career. And what some attorneys that maybe aren't so involved, you know, why should they get involved? Yeah,

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  19:44  

I'd love to talk about the women's Bar Association of Illinois, Ron. It's an honor organization that's near and dear to my heart. I was a member when I, you know, was a newly licensed lawyer largely because of a wonderful capital partner at the first firm. That I worked at her name is Jennifer sander. She was in line to be the president of the organization. And she was always so gracious in terms of walking the floor where the associate SAT, and said, you know, the firm has a ticket for this, come join me. Come, you know, she, no pressure, if you can make it, let me know, I'll see you there. And whenever you came, she might have had 10,000 other people in the room she had to speak to. But she always was like, Chris, thank you for coming. I'm really glad you could be here. I never forgot that. I still keep in touch with Jennifer. And so that was a great impression. And, and I had the pleasure of being at the firm when she was the president of the women's Bar Association. So we got to go to a lot of events to meet a lot of really wonderful leaders, not only in the legal community, but in the in the in the larger community in Illinois.

Ron Bockstahler  20:56  

So it makes me think, when you first started, that's how you got in and your firm paid for. But what if you're a solo or a smaller firm? Is it worth paying for out of your pocket?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  21:08  

I think it is, I think it absolutely has. And let me tell you why. Because bar associations, you know, help individual lawyers build muscles to network. And you know, if you're a solo fine yourself, or if you're a small, firm yourself in your firm, and then it creates a really natural platform for you to discuss what you do and why you love it. It's just that basic. And you know, when I say it to young lawyers or to individuals who are not sure, right, if they're going to pay out of pocket to continue, not only their membership with wb AI, but any other Bar Association, I always challenge them to think about that. That's not nothing.

Kirsten Mayfield  21:55  

And you also you, you said that you talk to Jennifer, and you keep in touch with her because of these personable skills, because she was a higher level person she came around she saw, like spoke to you as a human, she's looked you in the eye, she remembered you, those little micro skills. I feel like those are something you would probably be gaining from a bar association if you're not a solo attorney as well. Or if you are a solo attorney don't get those interactions.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  22:23  

Absolutely. Kiersten. I mean, you're learning if you if you stick your hand up, and you and you join a Bar Association, I commend you. And I also would encourage you to join a committee or join an event committee or you know, a small group committee or go to a CLE. You're going to go there and you're going to, you know, maybe perfect your elevator pitch or learn to talk to people learn who who could be strategic partners for you. Who do you like? Who's going to be a colleague, if you just need to vent and you can't do it to a colleague at work or your you know, your significant other or your roommates? Yeah, there are so many soft skills that one can learn from joining a bar association and showing up

Kirsten Mayfield  23:06  

showing up that's key, right. That's where people fail and think this isn't working for me.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  23:13  

Yeah, I agree. I mean, absolutely. But, you know, I hear time and time again. And I remind people, because people told it to me. And my parents told us to me, no one's going to care as much about you and your career as you are.

Ron Bockstahler  23:33  

So you

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  23:35  

got to get into it, you got to lean into it, because it doesn't have to be 100% every day. But you've got to come back to that as your guiding your guiding post. And you got to lean into it, you got to stick your hand up. And you got to get comfortable. And I feel this way for particularly young women and men who are in large law firms, or mid sized law firms, you better get comfortable advocating for yourself or making asks, and I'm not saying coming out of the jump and saying I need a bigger bonus. If you don't have the hours, you know some good work done behind you mean you gotta get you got to learn your craft and you got to get your skills, you got to build up the ability to be like a legal ninja. But at the same time, you got to start sticking up your hand and asking for opportunities. What is the worst someone's going to say? No. Forget it fine. No, is just know for right now. It's not no forever.

Kirsten Mayfield  24:33  

Did you ever have a fear of no or was this like, yeah, here? Yeah, all the time.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  24:38  

But so what? I was like, no one's gonna do this. If I don't do it. If I don't ask, no one's gonna be thinking Oh, Corrine would like to do this. I can see her at the end of this conference table. And I know she wants this opportunity.

Ron Bockstahler  24:51  

I think and I've been working for over 30 years, and I still have the fear no from time to time. So

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  24:57  

yeah, I'm not saying like I love it. I haven't to

Ron Bockstahler  25:01  

You mentioned committees, and I remember my first board position. And I think it was on that board for two years before I decided either get to get off the board or get involved. So I started joining committees. And it changed everything for me. I started getting involved with people differently. It was like, wow, why didn't I do this? from the get go? Yeah, raise your hand and advocate for yourself, get involved.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  25:25  

But I think you raise a good point with that, Ron, I mean, you don't have to do it right away, you know, everyone's got an on ramp. And you've got to kind of get your sea legs, sea legs underneath you and kind of see what works, see if it's a fit for you. Right? If this, you know, a lot of times we join organizations, and we might not know, it's in the inner workings. But it takes a while. So give yourself grace to because this does not happen overnight.

Kirsten Mayfield  25:49  

So where did you like start in? Like, how did you approach it, because as a person who's more of an introvert, I could see myself joining a committee and then going to like, or going joining a bar association going to like one meeting and one thing and being like, not getting myself in there. So how did you embed yourself into this bar association? Because you obviously did it? Well, you became a president. Right?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  26:16  

It's it. It was a it was a marathon, not a sprint. And that's why I say to really any lawyer, you know, you got to give yourself grace, when you're starting something new, or trying to advocate for yourself, you've got to get your voice and you got to get practice. But I was active and in more so going to events for the social piece, when I was a younger lawyer. And then candidly, you know, when I started having children, I mean, it was, um, Bar Association work went on the back burner, because there just wasn't enough time in the day for me as I saw it, and I did try to do at least one thing that was, or two things that were business development, networking every day, Monday through Friday, even through when I was, you know, expecting my children and on maternity leave. Did I hit every day? No, but I really tried to do that. So I had to take a little step back. And I have to say that if it hadn't been for my younger son, one of my younger sister, who also is a lawyer, she had just passed the bar and was just getting kind of into the Bar Association, because I had done it. And she was great. I mean, she would just show up, it was just after I had my third, my third, my third son. And she's like I saw, I'm in the lobby of your building. And john knows you're with me. So I'll see you in five minutes.

Kirsten Mayfield  27:41  

She set it up for you. She was just like, You're coming with me.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  27:45  

So that was a great, but it didn't take I mean, she had to do it maybe two or three times. And I was like, okay, she's right. Because I do remember, at the time, working in a large, firm, and, you know, just like standing outside my office bank, waiting at the printer, and just thinking, wow, everyone here is smiling and happy. And their hair is washed and

Kirsten Mayfield  28:10  

the little things.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  28:12  

And I kind of felt a little bit isolated. Now listen, that's all me, that's all me. But it was really great to get back and be active at the women's Bar Association because I went to these events. And I was like, these are my people.

Kirsten Mayfield  28:27  

And you had a person in your life who knew it and she was like, driving for you. Because while you say, and it's great advice from your dad, no one's gonna advocate for you, basically, other than you. When you do build those colleagues friendships and obviously sisters, you're born best friends. Yeah, I mean, I've got an older sister. We're just Yeah, but once you build them, they do help you when you're you're not able to help yourself as much. So

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  28:53  

yeah, you need a hype team. Yeah.

Kirsten Mayfield  28:56  

That's a great way to have it. Okay. So checklist as a young attorney, build a hype team.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  29:02  

You do and I'll make you easier and I'll help you be accountable. But like in a fun, nice way. Yeah.

Ron Bockstahler  29:08  

Let's lead into why you are the president at the woman's Bar Association of Illinois. You are the bar celebrated 100 years of suffrage right women's rights to vote.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  29:19  

That's right. We celebrated the 100th anniversary of the 19th amendments passage which gave women the right

Ron Bockstahler  29:26  

to vote. And what did you do? That was outstanding. I know you work with other associations or the bars. Will you talk about toot your own horn a little bit about what you did there?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  29:36  

Well, so that year, we did a lot of partnering with bar associations not only at the local level, but at the national level. So we did a we celebrated the passage of the 19th amendment with a luncheon that we partnered with the black women Lawyers Association of Greater Chicago And the Illinois state bar associations, women's group. And so we jointly put on the event. It was a full house. And we were lucky enough to have two federal district court judges engaged engage in a fireside chat. During the luncheon. It was Chief Judge Rebecca pahlmeyer. And judge Sharon Johnson Coleman. So that was wonderful. That was kind of the kickoff event, not so much for the 19th amendment, but just for the solidarity for the legal community. The women's Bar Association partnered with lag back and then Alliance Bernstein to put on the first diversity and inclusion, accredited CLE in Illinois, in July of 2019, around the issue of the law, and what it says and does and what it means for our transgender colleagues, not only lawyers, but just the transgender community at large. So that was, um, we were supported by the Chicago Chamber of Commerce as well. So that was really powerful partnerships. And then finally, right before, right before lockdown, we had a spring summit for women in the law. And we partnered with the American Bar Association's Commission on women in the profession. Do you have a day long event that Chief Judge palmyre hosted at the Dirksen building, where we tackled, you know, issues that are unique to women, as they matriculate through their legal career, and I kicked off the event moderating a panel that was that included Paulette Brown, who is a powerhouse and just a wonderful lawyer and person. And she is the Chief Diversity and Inclusion officer lac Lord. And Kelly Corley, who was just retired from the position of General Counsel for division, discover financial services located in river woods. And we talk about two women who, who live every single day, not even probably thinking about it now, trying to make the legal profession better, not only for women, but for everyone who's who is practicing. And regardless of where they're practicing, be a legal department, a law firm, public interest, a government entity.

Ron Bockstahler  32:36  

So we only got a couple minutes left. So one thing I want to touch on and kind of get your input some of the younger attorneys listening is your How can we break the glass ceiling on women and minorities that are kind of getting started today? What can they do to maybe change the way it's been?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  32:54  

I think you have to stick your hand up and ask and then grab each other's hands and move together. Because together we will go farther, and not to I don't want people young lawyers to ignore their unique characteristics that they bring to the profession. So very important. But there's so much good that can be done if you reach across the aisle and grab the hands of other people who are similarly situated, or maybe not similarly situated to advocate for each other. Okay.

Kirsten Mayfield  33:31  

So just one more question. Why did you go into that women owned law firm? Was it more organic? Or was it I want to be surrounded by like minded women in law?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  33:47  

Yeah, that's a good question to your son. I wanted to see how law was practice in a in a in a smaller setting. And it was very organic. The one of the founding partner, Stephanie Scharf, had been introduced to me by one of the at the time Chief Diversity Officer f law firm, where I was practicing Leslie Richards, Yellin, who was a wonderful, wonderful woman, a wonderful human being, that I'm very lucky to have ever had the pleasure of calling a partner. And they had a need, and I had a curiosity, and it was a fit. In that regard. I also knew that I was going to kind of be able to take my networking and my client book building skills to another level. I was doing it collaboratively with other women to kind of hone more of an authentic voice. That's not to say that I wasn't doing it authentically. I worked with a lot of men and that was, you know, listen, I had a lot of male sponsors. A lot of male cheerleaders at my firm. I have a cheerleader and my husband. So there wasn't anything I didn't think I could do, but I didn't do a lot Business Development with other women. And so I knew there was going to be a little bit of an, I wanted to know more about that. And I knew, in addition to being able to do great legal work at a boutique firm, I would be able to probably kind of deepen that skill and hone that skill in a different way. Which proven which proved to be the case.

Kirsten Mayfield  35:20  

That's amazing. I, you know, you don't always think about these things. But it is very, like, it seems like if you get you started at a bar association, you started with women, you just put yourself into that world. And you said it was an organic move into something that allowed you to achieve, which is an awesome and goal working with your husband every day, being a partner with him. And I think that just it's lovely talking to people like you who are just showing the different paths, because I think when you're just trying to make it yourself, it would just seem impossible. So thank you for talking to us about it's, it's great to hear.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  35:59  

Well, thank you for having me. And I just want everyone to know that I had a lot of setbacks. A lot of times it's a jungle gym, take five steps back 20 steps forward, two steps sideways, and you might fall off. But if you stay committed to putting yourself first and advocating for yourself, doing good work, learning your craft, of course, sky's the limit.

Ron Bockstahler  36:24  

Let's, let's kind of finish up with our last question. What's the one thing in the business of law you'd like to see change over the next five years?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  36:32  

I want tech. And I know everyone who comes all your guests are saying mess. But I feel like from the estate planning world, I can say I want tech to be here to stay to help us be able to not only connect with our clients, partners, but connect with our clients. And I don't want in person to go away. But I want it to become completely normalized.

Ron Bockstahler  36:56  

I think we're all on board with that. Definitely want to see that happen. I know just in my life. There's some things that the pandemic has actually brought you into my life that I don't want to lose a grade that I love working. I'm in my house right now. And I got five young kids, it a lot easier to spend more time with them when I'm traveling every day of the week. So a great,

Unknown Speaker  37:19  

a great. Well,

Ron Bockstahler  37:21  

Brian, what's the best way for our listeners to get a hold of you? I know most of our business is coming 80% of our business is coming from other attorneys. So let's how do we how do they reach out to you?

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  37:31  

They can find me on our firm's website, which is www dot Walker law firm comm you can find me on LinkedIn at Karen Cantwell hagie Facebook at Walker law firm. And of course my direct dial 224-904-3895.

Ron Bockstahler  37:50  

We do remember when the two to four numbers came out. I was like I don't want to do for number. I live in Chicago. Oh, I felt old. Thanks for joining the show. It's been wonderful having you really appreciate it. And we look forward to get back on the show sometime in the future.

Corinne Cantwell Heggie  38:06  

Thanks, Ron. Thanks, Carson. And thanks for doing this podcast. I think it's really wonderful for the legal community.

Ron Bockstahler  38:11  

Thank you. Absolutely. You can listen to the 1958 lawyer and we'll see you next week.

Unknown Speaker  38:18  

Thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. If you liked the show, tell a friend and please subscribe rate and review us on Apple podcast, Google Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron person, or Amata go to a modern offices.com. All the links are also available in show notes.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Bill Cisar left his career working as an associate at a boutique firm to establish his own practice as an expert in formation of private foundations and other exempt entities, opening this option up even for small businesses or lesser established clients. In this episode, Bill talks about the importance of making legal needs available to everyone, including small businesses and individuals and the greatest benefit of making a private foundation: the potential for legacy-building and ownership. 

He also discusses simple but utterly helpful technological advances that the system has had that will make your career certainly less of a hassle. Listen in if you want to know all about these things, and about when and why you should recommend building a private foundation to your client. 

Timestamps:

• Making private foundations for individuals and small businesses (1:35)
• Large foundations vs small foundations - the imbalance of (8:59)
• Benefits, limitations and the nitty-gritty of building a private foundation(14:14)
• New technological updates that will make lawyering more hassle-free (32:23)

Quote:

“...You want to have this name, recognition and purpose, to keep moving forward. And that, I have found in my practice, is the number one driver for individuals”

“ So you know, the tax benefits are there, the deductions are there, which is fantastic. It's not as great as just donating off to a public charity, but I think the retainment of the control is really what entices people”

“I would like to see attorney public reputation improved…we’ve got to find a way to be more client oriented… do a better job acting as counselors as opposed to just random suits that are there to draft the documents and send it out. ”

Hubbard Street Consulting 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bill-cisar-680b66a1/

BILL CISAR, Owner of Hubbard Street Consulting 

Bill is the owner of Hubbard Street Consulting, he opened his own solo practice in 2019 and he specializes in small business matters, estate planning, contract and non-profit formation and governance. One of the cornerstones of his practice is the formation of private foundations and other exempt entities and 1023 for charitable and estate planning purposes. 

He has acted as second chair at Cisar & Mrofka, Ltd., held a leadership role in drafting pleadings for the defense in a civil litigation controversy involving claims of promissory estoppel, fraud, breach of contract, equitable estoppel, third party beneficiary liability, and failure to file a mechanic’s lien. He has also incorporated and maintained small businesses for clients with an emphasis on limiting tax liability.

The YMCA of Metro Chicago Associate Board recognizes Bill as an Associate Board Member. He participates in volunteer events and supports them in fundraising initiatives at Metro Chicago. 

Get the full transcription of this episode of The 1958 Lawyer:

https://otter.ai/u/v0BssPOzx1SKDiIbLq2t52xihJc

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

Franklin “Frank” Ramos has written over 20 books, 400 articles and spent many years providing invaluable advice to lawyers around the country. In this episode Frank discusses some of the challenges facing young lawyers such as mental health challenges, work-life balance issues, lack of mentorship from experienced lawyers, and expectations that lawyers of color may face. 

Frank also gives us a glimpse into the future of law, especially as it pertains to technology. He gives advice on what to expect as law becomes more automated and impacted by remote work and how to ensure that you become a well-rounded lawyer and professional overall.

Timestamps:

• Mentorship and suggestions for young lawyers (2:59)
• What does the future of law look like? (20:20)
• Work-life balance as a lawyer (27:13)

Quote:
“We've all been through this process before, if you're a lawyer, and really any professional, you start a new career and you're wondering if you're doing it properly. You're wondering what your long-term prognosis is going to be in terms of what you want to do, how you want to get there, and what your goals maybe.”

Clarke Silverglate

Website: https://www.cspalaw.com/

Frank Ramos, Clarke Silverglate Managing Partner

Frank is the Managing Partner of Clarke Silverglate, where he practices in the areas of commercial litigation, drug and medical device, products liability and catastrophic personal injury.  He is AV rated by Martindale-Hubbell and is listed in Best Lawyers in America for his defense work in product liability matters.  Frank has been with Clarke Silverglate for virtually his entire career.  He has tried to verdict personal injury, medical malpractice, product liability, and inverse condemnation cases.  As a certified mediator, Frank has resolved numerous matters through alternative dispute resolution.  

Frank is an ambassador for the Firm’s mission of leadership and service.  He has been President of the Florida Defense Lawyers Association and the 11th Judicial Historical Society and has served on the boards of the Federation of Defense & Corporate Counsel, Defense Research Institute, Florida International University’s Alumni Association, Florida International University’s Honors College, Parent to Parent of Miami, Miami-Dade Defense Bar Association, Legal Services of Greater Miami, and Florida Christian School.  He serves as a mentor to countless young lawyers and law students through his publications, social media posts, presentations, webinars, and his “coffee chats.”  Frank has written 20 books for lawyers, edited five books for lawyers,  and has written over 400 articles for lawyers and business professionals.

Frank’s dedication to young lawyers is exemplified through his development of a Deposition Boot Camp and Art of Marketing Program for the Federation of Defense & Corporate Counsel, an invitation-only defense organization that handpicked Frank for membership just eight years into his practice.  Frank’s daily practice pointers and business tips on LinkedIn has over 55,000 followers and 5,000 friends on Facebook.

In his spare time, Frank enjoys writing, reading science fiction, and listening to his two sons, David and Michael, perform classical and jazz music. 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/miamimentor/

Website: https://www.MiamiMentor.com

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

Episode Transcription:

Voiceover  0:01  

So you're a lawyer and your clients are squeezing you for lower fees. How do you put more cash in your pocket? We want to expose you to new ways of practicing law. endless hours with no home life and a lease on an expensive office are so 1999 It's time to make a change for the better. Here to help you with that are your hosts Ron Vox dollar and Kirsten Mayfield. Welcome to the 1958 lawyer podcast.

Ron Bockstahler  0:30  

Welcome to the 1958 lawyer. I'm your co host Ron Bockstahler.

Kirsten Mayfield  0:33  

And I'm Kirsten Mayfield and we have with us today Frank Ramos Jr. He's a partner at Clark Silverglate in Miami, Florida, where he practices in the areas of commercial litigation, catastrophic personal injury, medical malpractice and product liability. But how I know Frank and how you probably know Frank is from his short and insightful LinkedIn posts. He's got 58,000 plus followers on LinkedIn. He talks about everything from practicing law and running a law firm to really just being a human being and a leader. He's written 15 books for lawyers, edited five, and they spam topics just like his LinkedIn posts from the very practical like his SL do strategic planning manual, which he co authored with john C. Trimble to the more personal like his book, Confessions of a Latino lawyer, and thank you so much for being with us today. Frank,

Frank Ramos  1:19  

thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Kirsten Mayfield  1:21  

Yeah, you're also into jazz, as we discussed, you've got some amazing art on the back of your wall. So in Oak Park, where I live, we usually have this awesome springtime festival. It's called jazz. Nah, we couldn't have it this year. So do you have a recommendation for a record or artist, my husband and I should check out?

Frank Ramos  1:42  

Well, you know, I listened to a lot of the old classical stuff, people can't watch us. But I have a record player to my right. And I have a bunch of old jazz albums. And I have, you know, some of the classes like Frank Sinatra, and I have Miles Davis and a bunch of these others. The End are some art you mentioned, that's right behind me, one of which is a picture of IRA Sullivan, who's right behind me who is actually a big Chicago jazz artist. And every year he would celebrate his birthday in Chicago, he passed away last year due to complications of cancer at 87. He was actually a member of our church, and played with both our boys who both play jazz and other types of music. But I'm a big believer in sort of the Bebop 1950s era that is so much going through a bit of a renaissance now. So yes, it is.

Kirsten Mayfield  2:32  

All right, great, I'm going to put links in that show notes as well to that. So people can check them out to not just me, and I appreciate it. Because I left the JASTA really sad to not have it this year, I can just talk your ear off about jazz, but into the law and the legal industry and everything. And let's start super easy. What brought you to start posting on LinkedIn, and building this network that you're building.

Frank Ramos  3:00  

You know, I've been on LinkedIn for a number of years, I think it got on around 2008 or nine when it was very much sort of a place where you share your resume and you did little else on the platform. And I didn't really understand the platform at the time. I know people were trying to connect on it trying to talk about their careers and their jobs and what they did. And I didn't really understand at the time, and I revisited the platform a few times until around 2016 when I just wrote a book called, he says it's handbook. It's a free book. And I was trying to promote and I thought, oh, LinkedIn are a good place. I mean, a lot of good lawyers are there. And let me try to share some of my thoughts from that book on that platform. And so I would just take little excerpts and share it. And then at some point early on, in that process around, I won't say August 2016, I decided I was going to post daily. And I committed myself to doing that. I've been doing that ever since I've posted every day, maybe with the exception or once or twice in those four or almost five years, and develop a bit of a following along the way. And my post is you're probably familiar with a very general, they're very much geared toward younger lawyers, I have two sons are 22 and 19. Neither of them are in law. They're both into music that kind of uses away because they both follow me there's a way to kind of give them nice fatherly advice. And a lot of times dads realize that their kids won't always listen to them. But sometimes you'll have other people comment in your posts. That's a really good idea. And then your son's like, Oh, well somebody else thinks is a good idea that my dad was actually had something to say to me. So a lot of my posts are basically like me talking to my son's barn, anybody else. So that's a lot of what I do on that forum. And early on in my practice. I've been practicing since 1997. Graduated from your son Manny. And around 2000 2001 I had a real bad case of imposter syndrome. I didn't think I was particularly good at what I was doing. I didn't think that's particularly effective. And I took it upon myself to start writing I started basically reducing what I thought I knew about the practice into small articles or sort of how to articles and And I've been doing that ever since on and off in some periods of my career where I haven't done much writing at all. But I want to say in the last five years or so, I've been writing a lot. And most of my books, if not all of them are pretty much how to books. They're how to take a deposition, how to try a case, how to market your practice, how to do public speaking, so on so forth. And whenever I do that, the book first and foremost is really for me, it's really for me to understand how to do that type of activity. You know, if I really want to know how to take a deposition, I started a deposition bootcamp is yes, I want to teach and lawyers but I really want to learn not only the practice from sitting down and thinking through it, but you know, talking to other lawyers did it as well. And so the process for me is really a selfish one primarily at first, and then it's an opportunity for me to then share with others what I learned through that process. And a lot of young lawyers don't have a lot of mentors, they don't have people who they can listen to or talk to, and a lot of firms don't have the resources or the time the partners are busy billion hours, and they don't really want to spend time with your lawyers. And it's very stressful. And a lot of young lawyers don't know what to say or do or how to interact or how to respond to a given situation. So I tried to, and my writing this want to give them sort of, you know, tell them to keep their chins up, and things are gonna be okay. And no matter what you do, there's ways of addressing and resolving those issues, and then also try to provide them real, practical advice. Having now done this for over five years, now, you kind of run out of things, the practical stuff to say, and a lot of that stuff is my books. So I've kind of really moved beyond that. I'll still do some of that, but a lot more of it, it's just, you know, you're gonna be okay, you know, even when it's not okay, it's gonna be okay. type of postings and, and if you want to learn, I think a Depo, almost all my books are free, go to my website, Manny, mentor, calm and find it there and look for my materials there. But I'm really trying to lend any engineer and if done, lawyers won't call me or email me, I'll usually set up a time to talk to them, usually in the evenings or the weekends when I'm not in middle of something, in a case for emotion or demo. And I found that everybody pretty much has the same question. Everybody has the same worries and concerns and fears. And that within 15 minutes, I'm I don't know, if I can solve all your problems, I can help you figure out how to address them. They're all pretty much in the same boat. We've all been through this process before, if you're a lawyer, and really any professional, I mean, you start a new career, you're wondering if you're doing it properly, you're wondering what your long term prognosis is gonna be in terms what you want to do, and how you want to get there and what your goals may be. And I think a lot of people just need someone to say, you know, look, you know, what do you want to be in 510 15 years? What are the long term larger goals? You know, what do you think you need to do to get here from here to there. Now, these are some suggestions, but you know, these certainly is not the whole number of suggestions and, and you can pursue it however you want to pursue it. And then most people, once they have an end in mind and have a pathway to get there, then they can figure it out. And so that's kind of what I've been doing on that platform for I guess, now for five years. And it's grown into quite a large tribe I get to interact with on a daily basis.

Kirsten Mayfield  8:12  

So you're a partner at your firm. Do you have like that sort of like leadership and role in your firm to how big is your firm?

Frank Ramos  8:21  

We're a small firm, there's like eight or nine of us. And you know, we've had different lawyers coming through our firm over the years. And and yeah, I think a mentoring role too. So you enter the Lord come here, and I'll sit down with them and kind of talk through whatever issues they may have, whether they're handling my cases or another attorneys cases. And you know, when people don't appreciate from the practice law is that yes, there is a certain skill set you need, and there's a certain craft to it. But there's very much a process to it. And, and what I try to do is I take every activity and I break it down into almost like a flowchart. Like, you know, these are the steps you need to follow the different A to B to C. And that should get you 90% of the way there. The other 10% is the experience and skill set and, and sort of the imagination, but a lot of what we do, I don't say it's rote, but it does have a certain process involved. And I've spent a lot of time studying what that process is I have a book, just the book of checklists. That's the one book I actually sell. It's for the ABA and it's basically every activity you do as a lawyer, whether it's an intake or talking to a witness, or taking a deposition or trying a case or even leading your firm or hiring somebody or doing an interview, basically just a list of checklists, and it goes through steps A through Z on how I do it and how I do it may not be how everybody else does it, but at least it provides a roadmap on how to achieve and I think that's true for anything we do in the practice pretty much in any career.

Ron Bockstahler  9:54  

Break take us back to you mentioned imposter syndrome. Is this self diagnosed

Frank Ramos  10:00  

It is something that's

Ron Bockstahler  10:01  

huge. I think a lot of us have that. And I've never actually put a title to it. But I'm thinking even of myself going, and what do I actually know? What can I do for anyone what you know? And it sounds like you took that and said, Okay, I'm going to get better at it. And you know, the old adage is the teacher makes the greatest student is what comes to mind, as I was listening to, you

Frank Ramos  10:19  

know, it's very point, I think each of us struggles with it at some point, especially early on in our careers. And we need some sort of ratification that we actually know what we're doing. And I did it through writing, not so much to show people I could write, but just so that I can reduce to writing what I already knew, and the process, get better at it. Because you know, you sit down, and let's say you want to argue a hearing, and say, Well, I know how do I prepare for hearing in front of a state court judge, let me these are the eight steps to come to mind. There's three more, let me think there's a little bit more, let me add those steps. Let me talk to some other people who go to hearings and get their input and suddenly have 14 steps. And now it's like, Okay, this is the 14 steps, I follow these 14 steps, I'm 90% of the way home. And that was kind of what I did. I've been doing that since 2001. And the last years I've been doing it, I've moved away from articles and done it in the form of books. But that's what I do. And I think that's pretty applicable to any career. And here, if you're in position or position or an accountant, you know, there's a process everything we do, not to sort of knock out or eliminate the creativity from it. But it really helps have that checklist I like when pilots get on, before they fly, they always go through their checklist to make sure that things will fall in sky. And it's no different for any one of us.

Ron Bockstahler  11:36  

So give us some ideas so that you were talking confidence, we got a lot of young attorneys that are you know, no one wants to admit it. But I think struggling with their confidence to make you know, can I do this, know what some advice you can give them or you've given to you know, if you don't want to write a book, here's other ways you can build your confidence level so that you can you know, fulfill your abilities as an attorney.

Frank Ramos  11:55  

No, I think public speaking is really important. And there are different ways of approaching it. Obviously, we're still in the pandemic, you really can't go out and speak that much. But there are opportunities to do it through zoom and other platforms. You know, when things return to normal, or at least the new normal, I strongly recommend that people join the local Toastmasters, it's very inexpensive things like 75 or $80 a year for membership. And it is a great way to develop and work on your public speaking, I strongly recommend people do improvisation, I took a couple improv classes a number of years ago, you know, comedy improv, and to stand in front of an audience and improvise something funny. I mean, that takes a lot of mental bandwidth. And it provided and it really gets over your nerves, I think so much of yarn lawyers that they're afraid of, you know, they're gonna say something dumb or stupid, or react to runaway? And how do I get in front of a judge or a jury or interact with a client. And so you kind of have to put yourself in uncomfortable positions repeatedly over a long period of time. And eventually you overcome that. I mean, there's a point where I was just scared to death of public speaking, just getting in front of an audience and even introducing myself would give me close to beating heart attack. But now, it's, I find it kind of, you know, very comfortable. And if anything I try, I try to prepare as little as possible, I try to improvise as much. And I find that more enjoyable, I don't really enjoy having the PowerPoint and kind of ticking through the PowerPoint. And, you know, give me a topic, give me, you know, let me know how long I need to go. And I got this. And I went from being a point where I was completely frightened of my own shadow in front of an audience to a point where you put me in front of a large crowd, like two seconds before and tell me what to talk about. I'll talk about it. And I'm not unique in that way that anybody can go through that process. So for people who are going through imposter syndrome, you know, figure figure out what skill sets you really need to develop public speaking, writing, client relations, you know, confidence, obviously, is a big issue, you're having a certain gravitas only in the room and find opportunities that really may not be in the in the legal field, but opportunities where you develop that skill set, so that when you're interacting with a client or dealing with opposing counsel, they realize that they're doing some of that substance, like you're not going to be just pushed over by them.

Ron Bockstahler  14:07  

Right, correct. And we should have talked to Frank, early on, when we started doing shows our first shows were scripted, it was the worst show you could ever imagine. And now they've gotten much better now, obviously. But yeah, taking us back on nervous we were writing everything down and having notes and wow, you just hit hit hit the nail on the head there, Frank.

Frank Ramos  14:25  

Yeah, I was doing a podcast for a while we did like about 100 episodes. It's not on anymore. Although you can listen to the old episodes. It's a conversation with the Defense Research Institute. And I didn't even a lot of times, I didn't really study the guests per se, I would just like my, I would do the standard intro our younger sons music was the music that would play me in and then I would tell them all, you know, in 30 seconds, tell me a little about yourself. And that was really the first time I would hear about them and make a point not to really learn about them. And then we'd spend a half hour talking, and then that was it, and then we'd shut it down and then you know, the music can play us out and that would be the end of the conversation, and people would just go crazy. Laura was like, why I need to know what questions you're asking me like, I do not know what questions I'm going to be asking you, we're going to have a conversation very much like, if I read it to you, at a cocktail party, we're going to just have a conversation. Because if I have to actually think about what I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna bore myself to death. And, and it's not going to be very pleasant, you know, I know how to have a conversation, I said, you know how to have a conversation, let's just have a conversation. And that's kind of how those those went. So I think there's something about just being in the moment, and just being able to do that. And that takes time and practice, obviously, I'm sure my first few interviews probably weren't that great. But, you know, by the time we get to 50, or 60, it's kind of second, nature becomes a bit rude. And I think that's true forgotten lawyers, you know, that first hearing you argue that first deposition, you take, that first client interactions can be rough. And it just it is what it is, you know, it's like, I've written over 400 articles, but first 100 articles, price sucks, you know, there's just no getting away from that. You know, I don't even keep them I've got I don't keep my old articles, I would, I would hate to even read them at this point. But it's a process, you have to go through the process, you have to suck at first, if the suck for sometimes a very long time. And then eventually you get good at it, and the passions that drive you forward. And at some point, you have to do something that you really enjoy and you love. And you have to make this a distinguishing factor between is it is fear, hold me back, or am I just not good at this, if you're not really good at that, maybe you're not, you shouldn't be pursuing it. But if it's the fear factor, then you really owe it to yourself to try to get past that fear factor. Because now again, I speak all the time, it's out to let fear get the best of me, I wouldn't be speaking at all. And but if but if I gotten past the fear and realize, well, I'm not really that good at this, then it's like, Alright, well, now I'll do something else.

Ron Bockstahler  16:45  

Let's be a good person,

Kirsten Mayfield  16:47  

I was just gonna say it kind of felt like you hit the nail on the head earlier, when you said like attorneys, they want to know the questions. It's an area where people are used to being prepared and preparing. So I feel like the hill decline with the attorney community is probably a lot steeper than, say, your artistic sons reading your LinkedIn posts.

Frank Ramos  17:09  

It is it's, it's a little odd, because what I'm doing is kind of unusual. I'm kind of the Tony Robbins of lawyers basically, on LinkedIn, that really wasn't what I wanted to do that really wasn't like, I came up one morning and said, Oh, I'm going to be you know, Les Brown for lawyers, you know, that just wasn't my idea. But it kind of worked out that way. And I'll get a lot of times I'll get calls and emails from people I've never even spoken or discussed anything with, and they're very grateful for what I've posted. And you know, it's, it's, it's reassuring, it's nice, but I don't really do it for that way. You know, there's, there's, if I can get somebody to if somebody is in a bad situation, either emotionally or at work or something, and they read something that I said, that helps them, but I feel I accomplished something. And if I never hear from them, that's fine. I'm not really looking to get them to affirm what I'm doing. Because often what we say what we do has certain ripples effects that we don't even appreciate. And maybe years down the road, we hear like so and so say, Oh, you know, you wrote something, or you said something for your podcast, they know, you know, I heard your podcast and such and such topic that really altered the trajectory of my career, my life. And I'm sure it's part of the reason why you guys do this. You know, we all work, we all pay the bills, we all have to put in the time. But if that's all we did, it'd be kind of a very menial existence and not being able to transcend that and say and do something that goes above and beyond that, you know, that's kind of nuts. That's what I'm trying to do. And I think that's what we all try to do and try to achieve.

Ron Bockstahler  18:39  

Right? You have a unique perspective, as an attorney, what are some of your passions? What are the things that really excite you,

Frank Ramos  18:46  

you know, I love to write, I'm actually working on a novel now. It's, the reason I'm laughing is that whenever you write a novel, you try to find a genre that's going to fit into it, if it's if it's a brand new genre that you created, you're not going to find anybody to pick it up. And I'm writing a legal thriller slash science fiction novel. And there are actually a few people in that space, but they're very few. And there really isn't much of a demand for that type of book, but I'm doing it anyway. But I really enjoy it. It's it's set some time future. It's basically a time where lawyers are being pushed out and trying to be replaced with androids. And the protagonist has been asked by a corporate client to be set to have his trial second, chaired by a new Android and he kind of to go through with it and, and there's just a big backstory to it and everything else. And the thing was science fiction is that it really kind of talks about who we are as people and where we're going and talks about much larger issues about you know, what's man and what's humanity and, you know, what makes us different than our creators and, and so on, so forth. So, I like big ideas. You know, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you can get that sense. And I love talking to people who like big ideas, and if I get in a room with people and we're we're Talking about some you know about the future, the practice or about, you know, the future of work, you know, that's that's a remote want to be in

Ron Bockstahler  20:08  

there that kind of ties right into I mean, maybe it's not that much science fiction anymore with artificial intelligence replacing your Android and in the concept things are changing, you know, what's the future of law look like?

Frank Ramos  20:20  

That's a great question. I do think that more and more of what we do is gonna be picked up by AI. And I think the first step you'll see is a lot of people outsourcing work to other countries like India and elsewhere, where the hourly rate is much less, and they have very high standards reputation. And that's been the scene now where legal assistants, even paralegals are from India, or from the east or from Latin America. And they're paying them a fraction of what they would pay an American employee. And I think the next step is like, Well, why do we have to pay anybody at all? Can't we just get some artificial intelligence to draft this contract or interact with this line or draft this motion? You know, you see, startups where you tell them an idea for motion, and they're trying to figure out how to draft the motion for you? And are we gonna get the point where we are having, you know, trials being done by androids? Maybe I don't know, like, you know, the idea of that we 20 years ago, sounded preposterous, and now, it doesn't. Now, it seems like, you know, it's within our grasp. And and where does that leave humanity? You know, are we gonna be in a post work world where 90% of the jobs are done by machines? And we have nothing to do? And, you know, and how do we support ourselves? And how does society support itself. And so I think the law has somehow managed to sort of push that off. But I think due to COVID, and other things, for all realize, and technology is very much part of what we do. And part of our practice our clients realizing that a lot of stuff we thought we had to do in person we can do remotely. And I think the step after that, or maybe two steps further down the road is, well, do we really need to at all do or at least do we need you for many of the tasks we thought we need before? You know, is there a Legal Zoom? Where we can just basically type stuff up and print out, you know, going beyond just a simple will or simple incorporation? You know, can can we draft a contract from whole cloth without you? And there are people out there trying to figure that out? They're trying to be there, there's a whole industry trying to make this obsolete? And, you know, more power to you know, yeah, that's, that's not really my debate, per se, it is what it is. And I think lawyers for so much, so long have been fine. get in the way of technology, and technology is coming whether you want to or not. And you have to figure out where you fit in, as opposed to trying to prevent it from happening. Yeah.

Ron Bockstahler  22:47  

How can you work alongside technology, I think is where you need to be thinking.

Frank Ramos  22:50  

Yeah, absolutely.

Kirsten Mayfield  22:51  

Yeah, I'm gonna take a more optimistic point of view on this, because I think and I hope that what will happen is it just frees up more time for attorneys to bring the actual change they want to in the world, they can focus on those things that they're passionate about, and maybe you know, impact the law. Because we've got robots doing the grunt work and the boring work, we can have more passionate and bright ideas take the center stage.

Frank Ramos  23:17  

I agree with that.

Ron Bockstahler  23:18  

I think you got to break this down even further to b2c and b2b. So if you're a family lawyer, I think that leads more towards the emotional side, where you're going to want to be with someone that can walk you through and keep you calm and in control. versus if you're an attorney, big attorney for Microsoft, it's going to be more AI is going to be taken over a lot, a lot of work to be done. So I think you got to look at what area you're practicing it. And then take it step by step as to how you can fit in and apply technology to assist your firm.

Unknown Speaker  23:49  

But you

Kirsten Mayfield  23:50  

can't apply technology without knowing your processes and procedures. So that's where you go pick up Frank's book, and then get your robots to do the checklist.

Frank Ramos  24:01  

That's right. Now all comes together without appreciating I brought up the next next age.

Ron Bockstahler  24:06  

Mm hmm. What's your history? So you got I think over 20 books you've written, you got one that really stands out as you love. That's what I really like.

Frank Ramos  24:15  

Yeah, there's a book I wrote. And I forgot when I wrote it, to be honest, it was called grow, motivate yourself. Stop chasing grows and do the hard work. And the purpose of that book was that we get some people asking, how can you motivate making you inspire me? And I realized that people are asking the wrong question that if I have to motivate you, then I'm motivating you to do something you don't really want to do. And so if you figured out what you want to do, you don't need a whole lot of external motivation. That's going to be your internal motivation, pushing you forward to achieve those goals. And so the point of the book, which is directed to the lawyers, but really is for anyone is identifying where your talents and your passions and your dreams intersect, because you can find in that Venn diagram, draw three circles and draw a circle with your passions. One with your talents and one with your dreams. And find that sort of inner point of intersection. That's really where your purposes, you know, that's where you know, your mission is whatever word you want to use your destiny. But that's where you're supposed to be. I don't think it is a coincidence that any of us have a certain number of talents. And I think we're supposed to develop and grow those. And I don't think it's a coincidence that any of us have certain passions or have certain dreams, you know, you know, a lot of us have had them since early on. And people always ask you, oh, what do you want to do when you're a kid and you're moving beyond being a baseball star, movie star, you know, we had, you know, a lot of us wanted to be lawyers, or doctors or firefighters, whatever else. And there's something to be learned from all that. And so that book, which is a free book, and again, you can go to my new mentor, comm and download it, it basically kind of walks you through, helps you figure out, you know, who you are, if you figure that out, then you can kind of get to where you are. And I think it's a scary process, because a lot of people are, you know, 1015 years of their career, and they realize why I shouldn't have done this, I really should not have done this. And I think that book is frightening to some people, because they're gonna realize, wow, I need to make a U turn here. But it's better to make a U turn later in life than not to do it at all. And sometimes what you find is that, you know, maybe it's not ideal, but you can make the best of a bad situation, or maybe you know, you're not at the right firm, you're not pursuing the right area of law. Maybe you're not, you know, maybe a certain fears are getting in your way, as I mentioned earlier. So that's why I like that book, it really has nothing to do with how to take depositions pretty much you know, how to figure out what do you do with your life?

Ron Bockstahler  26:32  

I think too many attorneys, they want to get into law, maybe early on there, it's holistic, and they want to help change lives, be at 72% of Americans can't afford legal representation. So then it comes down to money. Right? I think so many of us are maybe not intentionally driven, but at the end of the day, driven by finances that oftentimes can lead to negative consequences or, you know, bad decisions.

Unknown Speaker  26:56  

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's

Ron Bockstahler  26:57  

a great book. I think that one maybe even a week, Kirsten, you and I should pick up and, and read. Let's talk about the mental health issues that are plaguing the legal industry. And maybe that kind of ties into you know, go motivate yourself. How can we address them?

Frank Ramos  27:14  

I think we have to do a better job acknowledging that they exist. I think we're still in our professional career, especially among litigators, where you're supposed to like, if you talk about mental health, you're seen as weak. And I think there's been a lot of progress made in those parts, you see a lot of states requiring mental health care now, or at least promoting mental health CLE. There's a big movement toward mindfulness, there's a big movement toward acknowledging different addictions and different issues. And whether it's alcoholism or drug abuse, or whatever it might be. people deal with depression, anxiety, and, and there's a much greater awareness. And if you go to most conferences, now you'll find that there is one or two presentations on those topics, there's hotlines to call there are forums where you can meet with other people. And I think we're moving in the right direction, I still think it's fairly slow and glacial. And I think a lot of firms don't want to deal with that for a variety of reasons. One, they don't want to get spent. They don't want to, to open up that can of worms, they don't want to acknowledge those issues, the some of them feels like if they address it, it's basically go into sort of a work life balance discussion, which means that their people want to work less. And that's what's really driving the depression and the anxiety and they don't want to like have their people work less hours. So it's a tough career to deal with those issues. And every year, year after year, lawyers have the highest suicide rate, the highest divorce rate, highest rates, depression, anxiety, highest rates of alcoholism, drug abuse, and it's really uncanny. I mean, you compare our professions, anyone else's. And we're like, really, at the top of all those lists consistently, year after year, decade after decade, nothing really has changed in that regard. And so I think one is awareness. I think, you know, we have to bring more awareness to the situation to firms, as take ownership of the situation, you know, where much or last year I think firms have their new job and diversity, especially with the you know, the recent trials are going on with the police and all that. But I don't think we've done the same when it comes to mental health, and I think more has to be done to address it.

Ron Bockstahler  29:12  

You actually, I think you wrote about it in a blog talking about, you know, younger attorneys don't want to work, the long hours that maybe you know, someone that's been practicing law for a long time has been doing for and they're just, it's natural, right? So how are we addressing this with younger attorneys? are we holding them back? Or are they still gonna have the opportunities if they don't want they want to have a family and enjoy the life also,

Frank Ramos  29:32  

I think a lot of it is firm driven. You have to find firms with the right culture. Some firms have it, some don't. And I'm not here to disparage any specific firms. But these days, there's so much transparency online, that your lawyers have access to information that I never had when I graduated, you know, 2324 years ago, and there are platforms there are chat rooms, there are message boards that you will find out most likely than not about any firm and what they're really about, and listen, you know, really listen to what people are saying. There are some sour grapes, there are some people who are probably exaggerating, or maybe, you know, left under bad circumstances, but do your due diligence, you know, really look at a firm, and be willing to ask the hard questions at an interview. Even if it means you don't get the job, you know, if a firm is not there at the jobs, judging the hard questions, find out for me want to work at, you know, I mean, so you have to figure out what you want to do where you want to be, obviously, it's a two way street, you know, the firm wants to hire you Bill hours and work hard, and so forth. And you're there to, you know, help the firm achieve their mission and their vision, their values, but you also have to be, first of all, you have to know what you want to do where you want to be. And be honest with yourself, it's more than just doing a job of paying the bills, you really have to have a sense of self, and then commit to yourself to pursue it. Now, some people don't have that opportunity, that privilege, you know, people have through loans have other things. And sometimes people take jobs that they really don't want to take because the market is what the market is. But if you do have choices, and you have several interviews, you have some opportunities, really try to figure out whether the opportunity lines up with where you want to be 510 years from now.

Ron Bockstahler  31:12  

And it takes you back to that old adage negotiate from a position of power. So when you're out looking, make sure you're doing your research and talking to as many opportunities as you can.

Frank Ramos  31:21  

Yeah, it's like very similar to buying a car. Like when I bought my first car, I mean, years ago, I just there just wasn't that much information out there. And now I can go to a car dealership and say, Look, this is what you paid for it. This is what I want for it. And there's no disputing it, because it's all there. Like I mean, people who sell cars these days must be pulling their hair. They're just like, I'm sure there's some people who don't do the due diligence. But now it's just so easy to do.

Ron Bockstahler  31:44  

I think I was actually when I was on vacation. This past two weeks, I read an article about some states are looking to do away with the dealerships, the mandatory dealerships. And that kind of ties to that all the information to buy the cars right online, do I really need to go into a dealership and negotiate with a salesperson? I mean, Tesla, that was a big case with Tesla when they were banned from certain states. Now there's a couple other electrical manufacturing vehicle companies that are saying, Hey, we don't want to deal with the dealership. So will that change? Or will the law stop them from moving on? Right, great point. You wrote a book. I don't have it in front top my head, but it's about Latino lawyers, Confessions of a Latino lawyer. Talk to us a little bit about how we can make some more progress with, you know, Latinos, women, African Americans practicing in law.

Frank Ramos  32:36  

No, I think diverse lawyers have a very unique story, that if you're not diverse, or you just don't know. And the point of that book is great, it's probably my shortest book, it's almost like a lot of work, really. But it basically kind of is a summary of my life, from the prison of being Latino, grumpy Chicago, which is where I grew up, and then moving down here to Miami, and going to high school, college and law school out here then practicing law. And my experience is very unique to Angel lawyers, but it's very common to other diverse lawyers. You know, I was the first one to, I was actually the second person to a college, my family first person to our last post, I didn't have that network, I grew up in sort of an inner city. And so I didn't go to great schools. I grew up in an extended family, most everybody spoke Spanish, and we're all working class. And so, you know, right now, you know, there's this idea, there's this notion, and it's common on both African American and Hispanic lawyers, that you're kind of like your car, like the family bank, you know, like, you're like the one or two professionals in the family, if anybody needs something financially, they call you first and and, you know, in a sense of obligation, you, you help them and so, you know, whereas if you're sort of second or third generation, Anglo, that's not even an issue. Like for us, it's like, yeah, you know, we have to help, you know, I think there's just like two years ago, where we had to, like help pay for two funerals, because they couldn't afford to pay the funeral. And so those those financial obligations and smillie obligations are very different. You know, it's not uncommon to get pulled over by police when I was growing up, because I was Hispanic and what is a Ramos doing in a nice neighborhood? Especially, you know, we tend to drive older beat up more cars. And so obviously, we're some sort of a threat. And so those experiences always color like anybody else. For example, you know, any any person we go through life know, the way we were raised, the friends we had, what we watch, we listen to those our color our experiences, but the point of my book was that you have to understand if you're gonna hire diverse lawyers to really understand their stories, each of us has a story and understand how that story influences them in their decision making. And if you can't meet them halfway and really try to understand their story, they're probably not gonna stick around. I think a lot of firms actually do a pretty good job hiring lawyers, they do a pretty bad job keeping them and I think a lot of that comes down to the fact Is that? Well, we know we hire give, you know, this is how we do things, and a lot lower like what's I mean, I don't really have a point of reference, I, you know, I don't know how to deal with clients or, you know, that was really where I came up with. And, and the angle lawyers like, you know, they have family members or lawyers and, you know, their fathers and mothers are lawyers, and they get it and refers like, I don't really get it. And that's less true now. Because, you know, it's like, you know, there's more second and third generation African American and standard lawyers, but it's still very much. You know, if you see a first generation lawyer, it's much more common among diverse populations, that it is an angle of populations. So if firms want to hire people and keep them, they have to understand them. And that's true for anybody be honest. I mean, that's true for any lawyer, if you want to keep your lawyers, your paralegals your staff, figure out what motivates them and help them achieve their personal goals, separate apart whatever goals they may have for your firm, and then stick around. I mean, chances are they're a stick around.

Ron Bockstahler  36:03  

Great stuff. We'd like to finish off with one question, Frank, and that kind of comes down to what's the one thing you'd like to see changed in the business of law going forward?

Frank Ramos  36:13  

You know, I think there has to be more time focused on mentoring and developing young lawyers. And I think it's become too ad hoc. And I really believe associate training, Garn Lord training isn't that complicated. It really isn't that complicated. And more time has been spent by voluntary bar associations by law firms, by senior partners by even Junior lawyers on training and lawyers. And not just the hard skills, but the soft skills and soft skills actually more important, you know, encouraging your own lawyers to get involved in organizations to take leadership positions, encouraging young lawyers to do Toastmasters or improv, bringing young lawyers to meetings with clients, you know, getting them in situations where they're uncomfortable and moving past that, you know, helping them make decisions. Because the faster they can do that, the faster they can go out there and interact with clients, clients can smell, desperation, appliance and smell, when you're insecure client and smell when you're not on top of your game. And that is learned that it comes from experience that comes from being in sort of these hard knocks situations and moving beyond them. And the faster you can get gun lawyers and those situations where they're uncomfortable and realizing that in the world when things don't go their way. And they've learned from it, and they've learned how to interact with people. I think that's really important. And I think we're kind of losing a generation of lawyers that are not being trained in those regards.

Ron Bockstahler  37:41  

So I had to ask, the follow up question is, how do we do that in this remote world we're living in, especially if it continues.

Frank Ramos  37:48  

You know, I think remotely, I think, more time as we spent having senior lawyers kind of think through, like how they learn what they did. And then kind of conveying that and figuring out new ways of training people, you know, if you need to speak obviously, not to speak in front of a big group, but there are hundreds of opportunities to speak in zoom rooms, and lead zoom conferences and have zoom podcasts like this. So, you know, get your gun bloggers out there, push them out, where they crash and burn, maybe at first Yeah. And they'll learn from it and move on. And it's I think there's this fear, like, I can't have my landlords out there, because it made me look like idiots. Yeah, they are. And you pilot like media too. And that's just the way it is, you know, just my first few presentations were horrible. And now, I like to think I'd do it much better. And I did it because each time I did it, I learned something from the process. And so you have to try to create opportunities for landlords to go out there and stub their toe and, you know, get knocked to the ground to the canvas a few times and they get up and they realize it's not the end of the world and you're gonna be fine. They're just be just fine.

Kirsten Mayfield  38:53  

Yeah, I've never read a story about someone who reached success without saying I failed a ton before I got to that point. So it seems like it's a mandatory first step.

Unknown Speaker  39:04  

Absolutely. Alright, so

Ron Bockstahler  39:06  

we've been talking to Frank Ramos partner at Clark Silverglate. Real quick referrals. If you got clients that are going down to Miami or going down to Florida, something happens they can call Frank, they can reach out to you.

Frank Ramos  39:19  

Absolutely, yeah. And if you want to learn more about me, my websites play the best place to learn more about me is Miami, mentor, calm, you can contact me through it. And if you're a lawyer, and you want to learn more about the practice, you know, you'd have my contact information we'd set up a call.

Ron Bockstahler  39:34  

Right. Thanks so much for joining us today. It's been great. having you on the show and lots to learn. Definitely go check out Frank's website at Miami mentor calm and reach out to if you got any questions or if you got a potential referral form. Thanks for being on Frank.

Frank Ramos  39:48  

Thanks for having me.

Unknown Speaker  39:49  

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker  39:52  

Thanks for listening to the 1958 lawyer podcast. If you liked the show, tell a friend and please subscribe rate and review us on Apple podcast. Just Google, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to hear more about Ron person, or Amata go to a model offices.com. All the links are also available in show notes.

RM LAW GROUP 

https://www.rmlawfirm.com/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rmlawgroupllc 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rm-law-group-llc

MATTHEW MCELWEE, RM Law Group LLC Founding Member Corporate Law

Matthew McElwee has worked at some the largest firms in Chicago, IL (Kirkland & Ellis; Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg; and McDonald Hopkins), but entered private practice in 2020 to tailor his approach and his rates to the early-stage startups that he loves to work with.

He provides legal counsel, representation and consulting on corporate transactions of all kinds, including representing companies and investors in venture capital transactions, M&A (buy- and sell-side), and acting as outside counsel to startups, founder teams and growth-stage companies.

Matthew regularly advises his clients on a wide variety of corporate matters, including entity formation, contracts, employee matters and raising capital. As a founder, investor and operator of several venture stage companies, Matthew is uniquely familiar with entrepreneurship, company formation and the acquisition and management of funding for startups.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-mcelwee-8a359841/

JARED REYNOLDS, RM Law Group LLC Founding Member, Personal Injury

Jared Reynolds has helped recover over twelve million dollars on behalf of clients suffering from a wide variety of catastrophic injuries. He routinely helps nursing home victims and their families receive justice for injuries suffered in a facility, including bed sores, falls and subsequent fractures, malnutrition and dehydration, as well as sexual assaults and wrongful deaths. He further helps individuals and their families who have suffered from terrible injuries as a result of motor vehicle/motorcycle/trucking incidents, premises slips, trips and falls, faulty products, construction mishaps, and medical malpractice.

In the Chicago legal community Jared is a Board Member of LAGBAC, Chicago’s LGBTQ+ Bar Association. He further Chairs its Mentorship Program, helping provide support and invaluable networking/professional development opportunities.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredmreynolds/

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

His firm’s first game-changing tech adoption was a trio of fax machines that outpaced the competition and he says AI is the next big player. But Geo Bellas – nicknamed Geo as a reference to Neo in The Matrix – hasn’t been a techie simply because of the success it’s brought his practice over the past forty years.

He says it's also the fun of getting a “new toy.” Further proof that staying true to your passions in your legal career, and having fun, is an important aspect of long-term success.

Forty years of game-changing tech and what the future holds for the legal profession:

• The first tech in his firm and why he adapted early (01:30)
• A prediction of law firms’ futures (18:00)
• Attorneys working with purpose (32:08)
• Geo’s advice for younger attorneys looking to build storied careers (41:05)

Legal Innovation is More Than Game-Changing Tech. It is 

“I don't think I ever sat there and said, ‘I got to do this, I got to go get this,’ I just wanted to get a toy. And, you know the old adage is he who dies with the most toys wins.”

“There is a movement to have a form of artificial intelligence decide small cases to eliminate the load on the courts…. The only thing is that computers haven't learned to absorb all of the other factors…that help us make a decision. But eventually that's going to happen and computers are going to take a lot of the work off of lawyers and lawyers are gonna have to find a way to fit into that new paradigm.”

“[Zoom] is creating the efficiency and lawyers are still adapting to it. I mean, I see lawyers, getting on…and there are still lawyers who sit there and have to have either their grandchildren, or somebody help them open up the Zoom window so they can participate in a webinar by Zoom. But that will change. There was a time where lawyers didn't know how to use a fax machine. But they got [it], somehow they figured that out.”

GEORGE “GEO” BELLAS, An Early Adopter of Game-Changing Tech for Law Firms

Chicago Business Litigation Lawyer who has used technology in litigation for over 40 years. Geo's firm serves as a trusted business advisor to business owners and has been promoting the use of technology in the practice for over 35 years.

www.bellas-wachowski.com

Blog: www.businessattorneychicago.com

Geo’s Social Media

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/georgebellas/

Facebook: www.facebook.com/george.s.bellas

Twitter: www.twitter.com/GeoBellas

Keep Reading About Game-Changing Tech in Law 

• “Legal futurist Richard Susskind sees technology as a path to better justice” ABA, September 2020
  https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2020/youraba-september-2020/futurist-susskind-sees/
• “A General Approach for Predicting the Behavior of the Supreme Court of the United States” Daniel M. Katz, Michael J. Bommarito, Josh Blackman, 16 February 2017
  https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2463244

Have comments, questions, or concerns? Contact us at [email protected]

It’s our first dual-guest interview, with representatives from both areas of immigration law! Christina Coleman is a Canadian immigrant who owns her own practice and focuses on employment-based immigration while Katie Vannucci handles the family-based side as shareholder at a mid-sized Chicago firm.

They’ve been friends since law school, and both credit support for each other and in the legal community at large for their fortitude and patience with all a career in immigration law has thrown at them: from difficulties in launching a firm to the tumultuousness in their practice area through the past couple of decades.
 

Two immigration attorneys’ journeys in this changing area of law:

· The variety of paths in immigration law for attorneys (02:17)

· Practicing immigration law under an unpredictable administration (14:20)

· Guiding clients through unstable times with shifting rules (29:00)

· What Christina Coleman & Katie Vannucci want to see changed in the business of law (53:25)

The mentality of immigration attorneys, and their community:

Christina: “I started doing immigration in 1998. And I think for the first five years we would have [details] on the postings on the wall. It’s like where you file [a] kind of petition, it might have changed once or twice in five years…[since then changes have] definitely been on an accelerated pace….It certainly feels like it's been ramping up and ramping up.”

Christina: “One thing I love about the immigration community – and I really noticed it since I went out on my own – is everybody is so collaborative, so helpful. I did corporate defense work for six years, and maybe it was the particular lane I was in at Sidley, but, wow….You couldn’t just email a colleague and say: ‘Hey, have you ever had this situation? What should I do?’ You know, and it's just been amazing, and I’ve felt so supported [in immigration law].”

Katie: “I think for me one of the things that I am lucky to have – and kind of going back to the fact that we have such a great supportive community – is talking about [the challenges]….A lot of times in our weekly meetings [at Ahlgren] we go around and we just talk about what we've seen that week, and to be able to talk through it with colleagues that understand and can relate to your own feelings- just going through it and processing it….is really, really helpful.”

Katie: “The biggest thing is hoping that we actually see some comprehensive immigration reform, that we finally see a way under the law that individuals [we can’t help as attorneys]

finally have a path to be able to do something. Because that's the problem. It's not because people don't want to legalize their situation. It's because they can't. And so I think [it isn’t] until we can recognize that and we can see the humanity in this, that we can finally reach across the aisle and come up with a good bipartisan solution to actually deal with the problem, instead of keeping-on kicking the can down the road and say ‘well, we'll deal with it in another administration.’ I think we really need to come to grips with the reality and actually to do something to really fix the loss.”

CHRISTINA COLEMAN, EMPLOYMENT-BASED IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY

At her firm, RC Immigration Group, Christina develops and executes immigration strategies for a wide range of corporate clients in a variety of industries, including U.S. companies seeking to hire foreign workers and multinational companies transferring foreign employees and executives to the U.S. She also represents foreign investors and serves as immigration counsel to a corporate services law firm with particular emphasis in assisting European interests in the United States. In addition, Christina helps individuals achieve their immigration goals including obtaining work visas, family-based visas, and citizenship.

Previously, she practiced as a litigator at Sidley Austin, where she defended companies in complex federal and state litigation, including multi-district litigation. has significant experience working with students and was an Adjunct Faculty member at the DePaul College of Law. Originally from Canada, Christina came to the U.S. in F-1 student status and naturalized in 2006.

RC Immigration Group LLC: https://rcimmigrationgroup.com/

Christina's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christina-coleman/

KATIE VANNUCCI, FAMILY-BASED IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY

Katie is a shareholder at the Law Offices of Robert D. Ahlgren and Associates, P.C., Chicago, Illinois, practicing exclusively in immigration law. In 2015, Kathleen was recognized by AILA as a Michael Maggio Pro Bono Honoree for her dedicated efforts to promote justice and provide access to counsel, and for her proven tenacity in the fight to end family detention as part of the AILA Artesia Project. She currently serves on the Executive Board of the AILA Chicago Chapter.

Katie was published in the 2016 and 2020 Edition of Illinois Adoption Law published by the Illinois Institute for Continuing Legal Education; her chapter focused Special Immigrant Juvenile Status. She also serves on Loyola University Chicago School of Law’s Board of Governors and is a volunteer coach for their moot court program. 

Law Office of Robert D. Ahlgren and Associates: https://www.ahlgrenlaw.com/lawyer/kathleen-m-vannucci/

Katie's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleen-m-vannucci-04abb97

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