This week on The Vocal Lab Podcast, Jason and Shelby sit down with Ben Rodgers of Pivotol for a conversation that blends identity, creativity, and the unexpected.

From the shrimp boat–style lunch where Ben and Jason first connected to the deeper questions behind the real X-factor—do we truly know ourselves?—Ben explores why the Relational Economy may matter more than talent alone.

You’ll hear why choosing your “spot” is everything, how one decision can redirect a life, and why what’s meant for you somehow finds its way.

Plus, get a first look at the new At Depth podcast launching January 1st.

Over an hour of insight, stories, and reflection—don’t miss it.