What makes someone betray their country? It’s rarely just about money. In this episode, you’ll hear from a retired CIA officer who spent 25 years recruiting foreign spies by tapping into something deeper than greed. Jim Lawler shares real stories from his career in human intelligence, where persuasion was built on empathy, trust, and understanding what truly drives people.

From failed pitches to high-stakes successes, he explains the psychology behind espionage, how personal stress becomes a powerful leverage point, and why most people who commit treason believe they’ve been betrayed first.

Whether you’re curious about spycraft or just want a better grasp of human behavior, this conversation pulls back the curtain on how people can be influenced to cross the line.

Show Notes:

• [00:50] Jim was a CIA operations officer. His job was to recruit foreign spies for the CIA.
• [01:21] Most of his career was about battling weapons of mass destruction. His specialty was human intelligence and recruiting foreign spies was the backbone of that.
• [02:32] He's now a speaker and a teacher. He's also written three spy novels.
• [03:02] MICE Framework: Money, Ideology, Coercion, and Ego.
• [05:11] Jim shares a story from one of his first recruitment pitches. He also found out that revenge is a driving force for espionage.
• [11:58] Polygraph tests are stress detectors.
• [15:16] Divorce is one of the most psychologically tumultuous times in a person's life. When recruiting, Jim would become their best friend because he never once recruited a happy person.
• [16:07] He would study the crack system like a rock climber. He was a keen listener and very curious. 
• [17:33] Empathy and patience were everything when recruiting spies.
• [20:21] Jim talks about the metaphysics, which is like a neural link where he would put out what he would envision as an invisible link to the brain of his recruits.
• [22:11] If something is too good to be true it is.
• [23:45] As a recruiter, he had to manipulate, exploit, and subvert people to get them to do what he wanted them to do.
• [27:58] Jim believes in treating people the way he would like to be treated. He was sincere with his actions.
• [28:35] He believes in using his powers of persuasion for good.
• [32:43] Over 90% of the people he pitched became assets.
• [33:48] Jim explains what a cold pitch is and the objective to get the second meeting. 
• [36:58] His novels are thinly based on operations he did. A lot of his stories are based on things that he has done or things that his colleagues have done.

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Links and Resources:

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• Jim Lawler - SPYEX
• The Traitor's Tale (The Guild Series Book 3)
• In the Twinkling of an Eye: A Novel of Biological Terror and Espionage (The Guild Series Book 2)
• Living Lies: A Novel of the Iranian Nuclear Weapons Program (The Guild Series Book 1)
• Soulcatcher: James Lawler Discusses The Motivations For Espionage