Goalhanger's Tony Pastor explores building the U.K.’s leading independent podcast production company which includes shows like The Rest is History, The Rest is Politics and The Rest is Football.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week we sit down with Tony Pastor, the co-founder of Goalhanger, the UK's leading independent podcast production company. After a career as a TV producer, first at the BBC and then at ITV in the sports department, Tony teamed up with Gary Lineker, the former international football star turned broadcaster, to create the company.

It launched its podcast hub in 2019. In just a few years, Goal Hanger has gone from strength to strength with hit podcast shows like The Rest is Football and The Rest is History, which apparently clock up 42 million downloads a month and counting. We'll get into the creative process in a minute about what makes these shows so successful.

But first, I wanted to ask Tony about how Goalhanger was created. 

Tony: I set up Goal Hanger with my co host Gary Lineker, who in the UK is a well known media figure and former [00:01:00] footballer back in 2014. I'd been, a producer at ITV, a big TV company in the UK, and then left to set up my own production company. We concentrated largely on making sports documentaries, and then slowly the business changed, and, by 2019, we were launching our own podcasts, and in the last couple of years, it's become the main part of our business. 

Damian: You know, the podcast hub was launched, I know more recently than the actual whole production company and it's now like hosting some of the UK's most popular podcasts. I know that the company's just reported record audience figures for the May, July period this 2024. Big hit shows like the rest is football, which is co hosted by Gary Lineker.

And the rest is politics and several others, you know, I'm kind of curious to how you achieved this in a world with, let's say, tens of thousands of podcasts. 

Tony: Well, it's a good question. [00:02:00] And the big challenge in the world of podcasting is discoverability. It's not easy for audiences, listeners to find new content. There's an awful lot of really good podcasts out there, but unfortunately they're not easy to find. We have had a bit of luck on that front because once you build a successful podcast, you can then tell people about anything new that you do.

And there's no doubt that the number one way you can make sure that people know about a new podcast is if they're already listening to a podcast because they're on the right platform there, then they're enjoying the right form of medium. Once we had the rest is history at a super successful level, it made the launch of political shows and our entertainment shows and our sports shows that bit easier .

Damian: So the rest is history was the kind of vehicle was the kind of prototype as it were. Is that fair? 

Tony: Well, actually we launched a podcast, that was a real niche podcast, in 2019. It's called we have ways of making you talk and [00:03:00] it's all about the history of the second world war and I did it really almost as a hobby. It was great fun. I launched it with a great historian called James Holland and a comedian called Al Murray, both of whom are real aficionados of the period.

It quite quickly became a bit of a cult. No doubt lockdown during the COVID period helped in a way because it meant people were stuck at home seeking content. Podcasts are, producible remotely, we were able to really up the amount of content we produced. Suddenly it went from being very niche to some, to having quite a significant audience. And then the next iteration really was to say, we've got a successful podcaster that is, doing north of a million downloads a month, it's making some money and what would happen if we, did a podcast about more than just six years of history? In fact, let's do the whole of history.

And that's how the rest is history was born and it broke out, became a super success and it really showed us that the format of intelligent people talking in an entertaining way about something they know a great deal about [00:04:00] really could work. 

Damian: That's pretty ambitious. I've got to say, the idea of doing the whole of history. And I've got to say, I am an avid listener to the rest is history. Absolutely fantastic show with the two co-hosts, Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland, who've got this got this brilliant rapport. Between them, I'm wondering if you could sort of like for people who haven't heard it  just give a kind of distillation of the kind of tone and style of that podcast. 

Tony: Sure, it's a history podcast. It tells narrative stories, fabulous stories from history. Be that the story of Napoleon or the French revolution or the sinking of the Titanic, the rise of the Nazis. These are all subjects that have been covered extensively in the last 12 months, for example. But what it really does is it's two, people who know an awful lot about the subject, who research it really, really well, but then have a fantastic conversation.

Fairly light conversation in a very entertaining, witty, well informed way. The best way I can [00:05:00] describe the tone of voice of The Rest is History is if you could imagine being sat in a bar or a cafe and hearing two people who know each other really well and are good mates chatting about something they're fascinated by in a very entertaining way. That's The Rest is History. 

Damian: And that formula also kind of carries over into the other podcasts, like for instance, the rest is football similarly, it's like, three guys having a kind of elevated, smart, funny conversation about what's just happened in the week, the week in, whether it be the Premier League or international football or what have you, is that fair? 

Tony: Yes, I think that is fair. I mean, we don't, create relationships on air with our podcasters. We basically, listen in on relationships that already exist. So Gary Lineker, Micah Richards and Alan Shearer, all great soccer players in their own right. But more important than that, their mates, and you get a real strong sense of that when you listen to them talking, they love their football, they watch it endlessly, they [00:06:00] have a WhatsApp group that frankly you could publish and probably get 100,000 subscribers to, it's so entertaining, it's all about what's going on in football constantly, and they basically bring that conversational style, that very matey friendly, but intelligent and analytical style to their conversations three times a week on a Monday, they look back over the weekend's action on a Wednesday.

They try and answer as many of the audience's questions as they can. And on Friday they review the midweek and look forward to the weekend. So it's an ongoing conversation, between three guys who frankly. If we weren't recording it, would be having the same conversations anyway.

Damian: I love that, insight. 

Damian: So I want to shift a little bit to ask you about the, business perspective. And what need, as it were, did you tap in the UK market? Which, obviously has a wide variety and diversity of broadcast options because the BBC is there. So, how did you get that market? 

Tony: Well, I think first of all, I would say that the BBC does a brilliant, brilliant [00:07:00] job. It's a wonderful broadcast that makes an incredible amount of diverse content, but it has to, it has to serve an awful lot of people so it can, find itself spread a little thin. One of the great attributes of podcasting as we discovered with our second world war history pod is that you can super serve a group of people who want something very specific.

So the second world war pod is listened to by about 80 to 100,000 people. But it's listened to by them religiously twice a week and that means we get 1. 2 million downloads a month. That audience is not being served anywhere else. So that was our first insight. We then looked at kind of the broader history offering in traditional radio and it was all slightly stale.

It had been the same for a long time when we wanted to have a slightly fresher, newer, more entertainment focused approach and, I'd like to tell you it was super planned, but in fact, it was about getting too [00:08:00] great talent to have good conversations. And, we spent nothing on marketing the entire growth of that podcast.

The question I get asked most, which is really insightful in many ways, I think was it, why wasn't history taught like this at school?

If it had been taught like this at school, I would never have dropped it as a subject. I've always loved history, but it was always done in such a dry way. Why couldn't it have been taught in this entertaining fashion at school? And I hope that's what we're actually providing for those for all those millions of people who love their history. We're giving them a new access point to it.

Damian: Yeah, absolutely. I just listened to the five part series on Martin Luther and I remember going back to my history A level where I had, you know, hopefully she's not listening, but a pretty dull history teacher, but I learned everything about Martin Luther now, all these years later from that podcast. Absolutely brilliant with all its references. 

Tony: Absolutely, so there's one other thing I'm going to say to you which is, I think the commissioning model is slightly broken. I think the traditional model whereby somebody in their [00:09:00] broadcast ivory tower decides whether or not a pitch, a content pitch, will be the right thing for their audience.

I think it just doesn't work anymore. There's, it's too, we've got to a point now where commissioners are trying to satisfy too many things at once. Whereas we can just say, this is what we want to do. We don't need a commissioner. We don't need, the finances of a traditional broadcaster.

We'll self fund this. We believe in it. We can experiment. We can try stuff and it's been liberating for us creatively because we can, we can decide we want to do a podcast on Martin Luther which frankly nobody would ever commission and we can do it. And lo and behold it found a terrific audience,  likewise we did, you know we did four parts on the falklands war.

We did an extended season on custer. We did a long series on the nazis now the nazis will always get covered  in traditional media. But,  we were able to do, for example, this year, we took the guys to Sarajevo to talk about the start [00:10:00] of the first world war and the first shot that was fired, the assassination of our shoot, Franz ferdinand, you know, that's the kind of thing I just don't think traditional broadcasters are going to commission, but we're able to do it and find an audience with it.

Damian: Yeah, I want to ask you a little bit about the revenue model from a business perspective. you know, um, a little bit, we, we keep hearing in the U S about the ad opportunity, especially in podcasts. I'm curious from your perspective, what's that opportunity like in the UK? 

Tony: Well, the ad part of it is challenging. The UK is not a very big market. It is nothing like the US market. For example, the advertising slash sponsorship market in the US around podcasting is something like $4 billion a year. In the UK it's more like a hundred million. Dollars a year. It's a pretty small pizza in terms of, that needs slicing up between, all the commercial players in the UK and frankly, if the BBC enter into this market as they're [00:11:00] threatening to do, it will be even more challenging for us.

We've had to be pretty creative around the commercial side of it. So yes, we're absolutely fishing in the advertising and sponsorship pond, but we're also looking at subscription models. In fact, we've got six very successful subscription clubs for our podcasts. This is where audiences, super fans who really love the pod can get access early, can get it ad free, can get bonus content, can get live show tickets early, et cetera. And that's proved very successful. We also do live shows and the live shows, do very well. You know, the rest is history last night we did it live in Cambridge, in the university center, Cambridge in front of more than a thousand people. The rest is politics is going on a nationwide tour. We're doing seven cities. We've sold 30, 000 tickets across that tour. So yes, we've had to be quite. Smart, frankly, and see disparate potential,  financial models for our podcasts so that they can really function. 

Damian: Yeah, it makes [00:12:00] sense. I know,  people talk a lot about the kind of, the special relationship that, Podcast hosts have with their audience and sort of ipso facto that kind of translates a little bit into advertising and how advertising works, whether it be host read or ~whether it comes in,

Tony: programmaticly

Damian: programmatically. yeah. that's the word. I'm kind of curious to hear what response you've had from advertisers, in terms of what's your pitch to them? 

Tony: Yeah. I mean, our pitch to them is really relatively straightforward unlike nearly all other forms of media currently we're growing, the traditional TV and radio commercial radio models are shrinking. They're struggling. It's not easy for them. The streamers, Netflix and Apple And all the usual customers are now.

Causing traditional TV to have to be very inventive and work with smaller budgets. We're the opposite. We know the, the podcast market is growing. every year. Our audience is very [00:13:00] young, so we skew much younger than all of the other mediums. So, 48 percent of our listeners are under 34. So half of our audience is effectively in their teens, twenties and early thirties, which is,  attractive to commercial partners.

And, we have very, very long listen times. People are fine, find the content compelling and engaging. So,  the rest of history's average listen time is 41 minutes. Now,  this is great news. I'm always very reassured by this because people have told me for a long time that young audiences want only bite sized content that they can swipe through and everything has to be a minute or less. What we might call the tick tock generation.

Well, we're discovering that's not true  People in their twenties and thirties want long form, intelligent, entertaining conversations. They want, they want to hear content that entertains them, that informs them, that educates them. I'm starting to sound positively BBC wreathian, but you know, they basically They basically do want [00:14:00] long form.

People are commuting, they're exercising, they're walking dogs, they're cooking. They want to have something that entertains them, that, that informs them and a lot of people we know listen to our podcasts while they're doing something else. So I think the sell to commercial partners really is that, our listeners are super engaged. They're young, they're highly educated and by and large,  we've done surveys, by the way, large scale surveys of over 20, 000 of our listeners, they earn really good salaries. They usually are executive and managerial levels in their businesses. These are the movers and shakers, the people who inform the way that,  that our nations are moving. So there are really, really interesting and valuable audience. 

Damian: Yeah, it's, such a cliche now to say that young people have no attention. Clearly that's, that's not the case. 

Tony: It's, it's, it's absolute nonsense. It's not true. 

Damian: Yeah, it really is. And It's reassuring to hear that too. You know, in terms of the,  you mentioned it's growing. How far can it grow? What's the sort of [00:15:00] scale you can, when you think about I think the statistic I read was that 20 percent of UK listeners listen to a podcast every week. That's a lot of headroom, right? You've got left. 

Tony: Oh, it's super exciting on that score. We are definitely nowhere near peak podcasting. I can tell you why, because nobody over about 55 is listening to podcasts because they, they never did. They didn't do growing up with it. The older generations, the people who are perhaps retired and who would enjoy our podcast most are just not listening.

, They're perhaps didn't grow up with the technology. They're not quite as comfortable, opening an app and downloading audio content. I think that as people age with that native ability to use the technology and enjoy the content, there's a whole generation of people we will add between say 55 and 80, whatever, who will suddenly become listeners.

There's probably 30 percent upside just when we start being listened to and enjoyed by an older generation, which is not happening at the moment.

Damian: [00:16:00] That's a great point. Yeah, I think as people, get used to the tech, that's it. And then I don't, who knows what's coming up. You also have talked about, pushing podcasts into video as well.  And I are talking right now on zoom, but people listening are just listening to this, with their air pods or what have you, what's the benefit in a way of, pushing podcasts, onto video, is it to see those hosts sparring with each other, people are curious.

Tony: This is the area that intrigues us most about what we do. The advent of video really came from the US.

We started to hear Prominent podcasters talk about watching podcasts rather than listening to podcasts. And we started to ask ourselves, why are they doing that?

What is the gain? Surely it's not just for the programmatic ads on YouTube or Facebook. We were determined to trial it and see what the benefits were by practice, by actually trying it out. 

And what we discovered was, This was [00:17:00] an entirely different audience. So for example, during the euros, as I mentioned, 9. 7 million audio downloads and 10 million video downloads. They're not the same people with that. This was entirely additional audience. The other thing about it is, but there's a couple of things.

One is that it helps with cross promotion. We can cut this content up, put a push it out on social, on Insta and Tik TOK and Twitter, et cetera. But also when it comes to having partnerships, you know, with some of the bigger brands, there's that, that hundred million dollar UK podcast market is suddenly much greater.

If you're talking to brands about partnerships that include video and social, there's a whole extra set of people you're in conversation with. And so you can effectively turn a podcast back into a show, a 360 show, which. Frankly, we don't mind where people encounter. We don't mind whether you watch, you listen, you see the clips on your social media feeds.

As long as you're encountering our [00:18:00] content, we're happy. And that's really why we've pushed so heavily into video.

So we take the opposite position of the walled garden. We're not a walled garden. We're not going to tell you to come over to our place and enjoy our content. We're going to say, Where are you comfortable? Where do you want to be?

Damian: Yeah, love that. Love that thought. Is podcast growth dependent to a certain extent on those different platforms and platform growth? You know, if people listen through Spotify or Apple, what have you? 

Tony: Well, I don't know whether it's dependent on that growth. It's an interesting question. What I can say is that we're agnostic. We don't mind where you are. We have a really good relationship with Spotify who are our, ad and sponsorship sales partner. But similarly, you know, we have a great relationship with Apple too, who handle a lot of our subscription clubs.

And frankly, as I say, you know if you're there on YouTube or if you're there on Apple or Spotify, that's all fine. Yes, it does require people to be digitally native and comfortable with the digital platforms, but increasingly, as I say, apart from [00:19:00] perhaps my father's generation, who I still have to download podcasts for, you know apart from his generation,  I think most people now are pretty comfortable with the media. 

Damian: So one of the great advantages of podcast production is that you, have a very close relationship with your audience. Could you give me some insight into how that breaks down in terms of subscribers and people who listen for free? What are you seeing?

Tony: Sure. What we're seeing is that unlike the traditional, media relationship whereby a production company like us, we're Goalhanger. We would go in to see the commissioner at the BBC or channel four or ITV or NBC and we pitched them our idea and they would either say yes or no, usually no.

But if they did commission it, we'd make it for them. We'd hopefully keep doing it. 10 percent production fee, they would then put it out. They would sell the ad slots to,  commercial partners and ultimately the relationship between the production company and the final audience is really remote.

So ours is [00:20:00] really close. When we put our pods out free to air,  the audience listens to them. They contact us. We incorporate their questions. We have a very good relationship, very close relationship, but not nearly as close as we do with our subscribers. We've got about 90, 000 subscribers across our various podcasts.

And what they get is a direct personal relationship with us. There's no, advertising. There's no sponsorship.  They don't have to wait for a podcast. So for example,  we'll, do a, six part series on the sinking of the Titanic. You can listen to that content spread out over three weeks for free with ads, Monday, Thursday, Monday, Thursday, Monday, Thursday, or if you're a subscriber on that first Monday, you can have all six episodes immediately as a box set.

That kind of a relationship is, I think, unique to podcasting where you love the content. You decide that for the Cost of an oat milk latte. You can basically get all six episodes immediately. And many of our listeners now are just saying, you know what? I want my content clean. I'd like to just come to you direct.

I'll have it [00:21:00] immediately. By the way, I'd love to get prioritized for the live tickets for the show in New York. I'd like to get them ahead of the rest of the public. And so you develop this fantastic relationship with your listeners and your fans. 

Damian: There seems to be a kind of recognition that staying authentic, is the way to scale. I was just, I was reading some comments by, Netflix boss Ted Sarandos at the RTS conference, Royal Television Society conference, who was saying, one of the big hits this year for them was Baby Reindeer, which is a very UK, British sensibility, but yet it's done really well. They didn't pander to a global audience. They kept it authentic. It seems like that is the same formula that's having success for you. 

Tony: Well, it's really interesting this, isn't it? Because,  I've got three, I've got three, sons, two teenagers and a 20 year old, and they're watching tons of content on Netflix and, uh, and the variety of the streamers, and they're very happy watching, for example, Korean TV with subtitles. They'll watch dramas from Scandinavia with subtitles. They're very comfortable. [00:22:00] Watching authentic drama and cultural content from other nations. I don't know whether the kind of globalization of content has finally happened, the days when, if it didn't, when, if a movie didn't have a, an American star, it could never be watched around the world.

I think it's gone. I think people are much more comfortable enjoying content from a variety of nations.

Damian: Well, Tony, thank you so much for these insights. Great talking with you. 

Tony: An absolute pleasure. Thanks very much for having me on.

Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned. The current podcast theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesey and Sydney Kearns. And remember,

Tony: We're not a walled garden. We're not going to tell you to come over to our place and enjoy our content. We're going to say, Where are you comfortable? Where do you want to be.

Damian: I'm Damian and we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review.

Also tune into our other podcast, The Current Report.

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The U.S. CMO of the luxury car company discusses how integrating Jaguar Land Rover’s brand alongside popular shows like Succession and The Gentlemen has helped deliver its message of quiet luxury.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Ilyse: [00:00:00] I'm Ilyse Liffreing

Damian: And I'm Damian Fowler and welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast.

Damian: This week, we're delighted to talk with Charlotte Blank, U.S. Chief Marketing Officer of Jaguar Land Rover North America.

Ilyse: Charlotte is responsible for JLR's House of brands, which includes the Land Rover Defender and Discovery, the Range Rover, as well as the new line of all electric Jaguar cars.

Damian: Before she joined JLI, before she joined JLR, Charlotte gave a TED Talk in 2019 called Lead Like a Scientist, where she examined the psychology of motivation and what it means to lead.

Ilyse: Charlotte says she's obsessed with testing new ideas and challenging the status quo. So that's where we started. 

Damian: So hi, Charlotte. Thank you for joining us.

Charlotte: Thank you for having me.

Damian: In 2019, you did a TED talk called lead like a scientist in which, you talked about the importance of testing new ideas and challenging the status quo. Now, is that something you put into practice in your current role as CMO at JLR

Charlotte: I would like to think so and I think there's room to do even more. I describe myself as a marketer by way of psychology. I did that TED Talk in a previous role as Chief Behavioral Officer of an incentive and motivation company where I really got to be at the forefront of research in behavioral economics and studying what we know about human behavior and social science and how that plays into understanding and motivating people to take action, which essentially is at the core of marketing.

So we have so much of an opportunity to act and lead like scientists when we wear our hat as a marketing leader. 

Damian: And what can other marketers do to sort of take some of those lessons that you were expressing in that talk? You know, and how can they integrate that into their daily work?

Charlotte: I think to lead like a scientist, first and foremost, means to test things, to run experiments, and by that I mean true randomized controlled experiments, hold out test controls with properly randomized groups. And really from an applied standpoint, I think [00:02:00] marketers have been leading the way here. I mean, A B tests are standard practice. We see them as common practice in digital advertising and website optimization - really, it's kind of part of the daily work of being an excellent digital marketer in particular is to constantly be A B testing. But I think where there's more of an interesting opportunity to grow is more hypothesis driven testing. So not just the: “Will I see more clicks if I move this important box from the bottom of the page to the top?” But more: “I have this insight about something that really differentiates the consumers I'm trying to reach and how can I craft my messaging to get at that core psychological insight and testing those?” That I think is sort of the next step and where we can really make a difference.

Damian: Could you give us an example of how you, you're putting that into practice at JLR?

Charlotte: Absolutely. So we are on an exciting journey at JLR as part of our modern luxury transformation. We're really elevating the brands and taking everything up market and really responding to the rise in [00:03:00] wealth and the consumers that we reach from a modern luxury perspective. And part of the strategy to bring that to life is ‘House of Brands’.

So JLR really no longer goes to market with the Land Rover brand as the front facing brand, but it fades back to allow Range Rover Defender and Discovery each to thrive in their own right. So this is an exciting opportunity for marketers to really tease apart the difference, for example, between a Range Rover customer and a Defender client. And that's really where the psychological insights come into play. So we've been doing some really interesting research that finds these ‘core differentiating nuggets’, we call them. 

Just off the top of my head, some interesting insights were: Range Rover Sport target is extremely psychologically rich. They thrive in busyness and sort of the chaos of daily life that many of us know. Some of us love, some of us don't love. The Range Rover sport person loves to be very busy and to have their hands in lots of different things and they're rather impulsive. They lack the ability to delay gratification, and they don't [00:04:00] like to be overly structured or routine.

So they like to just kind of go for it and go for their dreams and not really overthink things because they can handle doing multiple things at once. So I think you'll see, for example, in the new Range Rover Sport Creative as part of our new Velocity Blue campaign starring Theo James. He kind of exhibits that in the commercial.

You see him sort of exploring the property, racing the car around the grounds, and going for an action to what turns out to be simply playing fetch with his dog. But it's this kind of heroic, fast paced scene that really brings to life that sort of busyness and a bit of impulsivity.

Ilyse: bit of impulse. Now, as far as that campaign and then like future campaigns, you've talked a lot about the importance of media mix modeling. I'm curious why this is important  and would you say it's easier now to lead like a scientist in a marketing world that is more data driven?

Charlotte: We're very excited to kick off our MMM (Media Mix Modelling) project. I think two weeks from today we're starting our [00:05:00] really what we're calling our marketing mix project because I think this is finally our chance to put all of the pieces really together in a rigorous scientific data driven way so that we can get a little more sophisticated about understanding and right sizing the expectations for what advertising investment can do in the short term when it comes to sales and that I'm kind of recognizing that in the automotive industry and probably in most others that it's not only about the advertising, but it's about the media strategy being carefully executed in concert with getting all the other pieces, right.

Is the pricing right? Are the incentives right? What are the competitors doing? How old is the product? There are all of these factors that come into play, and we can put them all into the model to help us make better decisions about where to place a dollar at any given time for any particular model, and it may or may not be in more media. It might be for new creative, or it might be on adjusting the price. It might differ depending on the product, so I think that's going to make us, as a collective [00:06:00] enterprise, a lot more intelligent and data driven.

Ilyse: intelligent. On that note, are there different markets for different vehicles across JLR brands?

Damian: the

Charlotte: Of course. I mean, that's really part of the fun of differentiating the four brands is they really are different core audiences. And again, this comes back for me to psychology, that when we look at the surface level at the demographics and we simply ask questions like: How old are these people? Are they married? What is their average household income? They look relatively similar to each other and to competitive brands, but we take another level down, we start peeling the onion and we look at: Well, how do they spend their time? And then we look even deeper: But what really drives them? What motivates them? What stage of life are they in psychologically? That's where they start to feel really different.

So that can come to life in the ‘where’ and ‘how’ we approach our media buys and the partnerships we explore. But it also, again, you know, creative is king. It comes into the messaging and how we craft a story that resonates with people.

Damian: I just gotta say on that [00:07:00] note, I did love the Theo James spot. The Range Rover spot because it was filmed at Harewood House, which is very close to where I grew up in Yorkshire. So I think I'm in the market for one of those and the same color, too.

Charlotte: I was thrilled to hear that when you share that with me in your beautiful English accent, because it is, it's a really special location that was carefully chosen, partly to bring about that English heritage, you know, that's something that is such a special gift and a unique, ~um,~ distinctive asset for the Range Rover brand is ~that~ that English heritage going back to the queen and the royal family.

And I think we've ~kind of~ gone through phases about how much in the degree that we play that up. But the time feels right culturally to really ~kind of ~celebrate that and bring forth a bit of cheeky modern Britishness. to the Range Rover sport brand and truly there's no better character for that than Theo James.

You know what he brought to life in the Gentleman hit series on Netflix. ~Um,~ Range Rover was heavily integrated in that show. So we already benefited from the show's popularity and Theo's popularity and have a bit of [00:08:00] equity built with him. So I think it's just perfect that we got him to sort of star in the campaign

Ilyse: to sort of star in the character.

Not to

Charlotte: quite handsome. That's true.

Ilyse: And it is all about like marketing a lifestyle just as much as a vehicle.

Charlotte: 100%. That's, that couldn't be more true, especially for a luxury brand.

Ilyse: brand. And we

Damian: we hear a lot, ~um,~ now of the importance of marketing being relevant to culture and that's a very good example of how you're tying in. You know relevance to cultural moments, ~you know,~ especially premium content like you mentioned white lotus the gentleman. ~It's ~It's sort of all aligned in lots of

Charlotte: I am a huge fan of branded entertainment. Where people spend their leisure time, where their captive audience in front of a big screen in the comfort of their own home, and where they binge watch their favorite shows, Netflix, HBO. We've seen some incredible return on investment when we integrate our vehicles and our brand experience in a highly curated way, against some of these popular shows.

Succession comes to mind. ~You know,~ Succession really brought in [00:09:00] this. notion of quiet wealth and like the uber luxury in a way that's a little bit more understated and reductive. The clothing they wear with the million dollar sweaters that just look really simple. There's something about ~that~ that really resonates with the Range Rover brand and the design aesthetic that's not overtly flashy or gaudy, ~um,~ but is a little more reductive and minimalist in design and it's just the characters and succession really brought that to life.

Damian: and minimalist in design, and it's just the characters and succession really brought that to me. What insights have you got there around marketing to that group, that younger demographic, ~uh,~ especially given the fact that you're ~kind of ~leading with data?

Charlotte: I think it's really important. ~I mean,~ we have to remind ourselves as as much as we do pay attention to performance marketing, and we've built a world class sophisticated martech stack and a [00:10:00] really strong team of digital marketers who are highly attuned to those kind of purchase intense signals and closing demand, ~you know,~ focusing on that lower part of the funnel. But at the end of the day, especially in automotive, especially these luxury brands, it takes time to really build that love in people's hearts. And it, for many people starts early. I mean, some of the most interesting research I've seen, it's as if people are lying on a psychiatrist's couch, going back to their literal childhood memories: What does Range Rover mean to me in my heart?

They're thinking about,~ you know,~ their father driving one, or the royal family, some early memories they had of it, or a show that they've seen, ~you know,~ brand and entertainment really comes to mind.~ Um,~ Defenders, ~um, ~sort of rocketing onto the scene in the recent James Bond movie with this really spectacular car chase is an example that, you know, is meant to appeal not only to people who are in market now or can afford one now, but potentially to, to the younger generations who might, ~you~ You know, put the theoretical poster up on the wall and dream of it in the future.

So I think that's really important for us marketers.

Ilyse: And that really,  ties into like. [00:11:00] Personalized journeys, especially if they look back at how they even came across the brand to begin with. When it comes to that as well, which channels are you testing as you like focus on like scale? 

Charlotte: We're always testing new channels for scale. You know, a lot of our focus around building the upper funnel and growing our brands tremendously. Defender. We doubled sales in the U. S. last year. From, around 15, 000 a year to over 30 and did that very quickly with just a really concerted focus on building awareness, breaking through with really effective creative that drove breakthrough recall and brought a lot of new audiences, into awareness of the brand.

And I think, the way to do that is to get some of the brilliant basics right. Which means really good, creative, really strong media plans that index heavily on scale-based channels like CTV. We did a lot of TV, we've been in podcasting, audio. When we [00:12:00] think of the 'see, think, do’ framework, really focusing on the ‘see’ to build new audiences and build that upper funnel.

Damian: That's an incredible statistic you just shared about doubling sales last year of Defender, and that's through brand, sort of brand building.

Charlotte: Indeed, as well as physical experiential activations, as well is a big part of our marketing mix. We host every year the Destination Defender Festival, which grows each year. We have an incredible cause marketing platform for Defender called the Defender Service Awards, which gives us a platform to showcase the capability and off road and durability of the car in context of these really emotional lifestyle stories.

So we invite very local grassroots charities who need a vehicle that can take them to difficult places. We invite them to submit video applications for a chance to win a Defender, and then we invite consumers to vote. Last year we had over half a million votes in a very grassroots approach, and this year we're looking [00:13:00] already to surpass that.

And that just gives us a wealth of content and opportunity to make a difference, and to really establish a platform that's authentic and organic for the brand. So I think those sort of higher touch, authentic, steps are important as a foundation, but then also just to really blast out building awareness through big traditional media has helped as well.

Damian: That seems like that, that's sped up, maybe, is it? All of you got sped up. 

Charlotte:  I mean, we truly last year we called it the year of ~Defender, Defender,~ Defender. No joke. It was ~kind~ of all systems go on defender. We were, it was really motivating and really exciting because we had such a clear vision of what we needed to do to differentiate and really break defender onto the scene.

So it was just a galvanizing kind of experience to just go all in on this one brand. This year we've got to be able to, walk and chew gum at the same time. We're back to focusing on multiples.

Ilyse: at those like cultural and like sporting events and having a big presence at some of those.

How much is that really part of your strategy and which, I guess, which cultural events have you really found yourself being?

Charlotte: Yeah. That's a very topical question for us. Experiential marketing, I think, gives us a way to really bring the brand to life in a way that transcends the product and makes people feel like they're part of a community. So a great example is Range Rover house, ~um,~ for Range Rover, that's now a global lifestyle platform.

We now do Range Rover houses everywhere from.

Damian: started

Ilyse: But

Charlotte: to Dubai, Cormier, you name it, but it started here in the U. S. in Monterey around, ~um,~

Damian: around Monterey.

Charlotte: Pebble Beach around Monterey car week.  and we do it every year in that location at that event, as well as,  Salt Lake City at, Park City, and a few other locations.

And basically, the idea is that we'll take over a private residence or building that [00:15:00] matches the design aesthetic of Range Rover and curate these exquisite, really luxury crafted experiences for our clients and prospects and partners. And we do that in partnership with other luxury brands to offer. For example, ~uh,~ rare spirit tastings, or a luxury facial, ~um,~ early access to a new fashion launch.

~Um,~ so we'll curate something different each time to keep it fresh. But the idea, it's been fun for the team to use as almost~ a,~ a filter or a thought exercise of, if Range Rover the brand were a house, What would it smell like? What would the furniture look like? What would you eat there? Who would be there?

you can kind of stretch your imagination to bring the brand to life in a way that, transcends the product. And we'll have a special product edition each time. That's also a part of the strategy where we'll release a limited count of a special Range Rover. That's only 17 of them are made. And it Retails for 350, 000 and only those [00:16:00] who are in person have a chance to, have the first look.

So that gives it sort of a press hook, ~um,~ and an extra kind of commercial reason to attend. But really the experience we hear more and more from our clients is that I feel like I'm part of a club, an exclusive society. ~You know,~ I'm a Range Rover person and that means that I get to do this and I get to meet and mingle with other life's leaders.

We call them in the Range Rover community. 

Damian: not every automaker can claim that they're able to kind of, like, create a club of like minded members. I know many would probably think that they can, but there's something special about JLR in that way. And I know we touched on this already, but one of those factors, I guess, that plays into the branding and the association is the British connection.

You mentioned the ad, but could you say a little bit more about that and how that is Something that you use or not use, especially in the U. S. market, which is what you're in charge.

Charlotte: [00:17:00] Yeah, such an interesting question for the U. S. market. ~Um,~ We have a couple of very current examples, I think, to this effect. One is that we have the blessing of having access to this curated collection of Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, her cars, basically the classic Land Rover product that she either drove or was escorted in, throughout her regime.

And we have a beautiful collection of 10 of those vehicles that have been painted. painstakingly perfectly restored, and we debuted them globally at Pebble Beach this year. So it was the very first time that an SUV was displayed on the Pebble Beach Concourse, which I was surprised by. That was a really unique moment.

That was a really special thing. So we got a lot of press and breakthrough for that moment. And a lot of just fan activity. There are a lot of classic Land Rover Range Rover fans. So now we're taking those vehicles on tour and we'll have them at Rockefeller center with a very British themed experience.

It's all about the Royal family. So we'll have sort [00:18:00] of a tour. British, ~you know,~ other partners there and sort of a British feel. ~Um,~ but when you see the cars, ~you know,~ there's even these little touches like a special spot for the corgis to sit or the special hook for the Queen's handbag. ~Um,~ so that is a moment that's really making us stop and appreciate the British heritage and celebrate that in a more public way than we had recently.

but a funny story we were just catching up about earlier when I spoke about the Theo James commercial. It's called Velocity Blue is the campaign. We made some edits for a U. S. version of the TV spot, which will start airing  that essentially streamlined the story to be a little bit more simple, with a little more car shot, a little more action, which kind of captures a lot of, like, the U.

S. feedback. When we have our creative debates and discussions internally, most of the creative origination happens at the global headquarters in the U. K., It rolls out to the major markets. We give our feedback. There's a process that's probably very similar at other global companies, and the script tends to go something like the English version is a bit [00:19:00] more abstract, has a little more storytelling, has a lot going on, and the U.

S. wants to see Simple. Hit me with the logo. More car shots. Get to it. People are busy. There's a lot to break through and there's always  a cheeky debate about that. But, this time, they actually created a slightly different version for the U. S. Same spot, really, but with a key difference that, that simplified it and removed a scene in the middle that had, you know, an equestrian riding across the property you described.

And we just got the test results back and they were fascinating to see. We worked with Kantar to do sort of the initial assessment of how both the UK and the US audiences resonate with each of these two options. And we found that indeed we were correct about the US that the simplified spot without the equestrian, outperforms the original version for U.S. audiences, but fascinatingly, in the U. K., the reverse is true. So that gave us such an interesting, and frankly, a positive outcome that was, gets us [00:20:00] away from any kind of creative disagreements and is much more about honoring these market specific differences. And just isn't that interesting, that people have different expectations of advertising or different understanding of, the content of this particular spot.

So it's just an important reminder to global brands to keep the core insight true, but to make those tweaks to really optimize for each market.

Damian: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great. I mean, keep the horse. I say keep the horse.

Ilyse: I mean, I'm an American, right? And I think it's, I think the UK version is better,

Charlotte:  Ifyou know just keep it simple. Yeah, but it's so interesting, those insights like that fascinating. 

Charlotte: live for them. I mean, I think that's what marketing is all about is the consumer insight.

Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

Damian: And remember, 

Charlotte: especially in automotive, especially these luxury brands, it takes time to really ~ build that love in people's [00:21:00] hearts. And it, for many people starts early.

Damian: I'm Damian.

Ilyse: I'm Ilyse

Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Gopuff’s Daniel Folkman joins The Current Podcast to explore the company's philosophy, what differentiates Gopuff’s retail media network and how the platform’s unique proposition could help it capture incremental retail media dollars.

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The beverage brand’s former CMO, which holds drinks like Aperol, breaks down why events like Coachella, the US Open and Cannes Film Festival are so important to its marketing strategy.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Julka Villa, the former Global CMO of Campari Group.

[00:00:11] Damian: Founded in 1860, Campari is a household name in the global spirits industry with a portfolio of over 50 brands across world markets.

[00:00:20] We're talking familiar names like Aperol, Sky Vodka, Wild Turkey Bourbon, and Courvoisier.

[00:00:27] Ilyse: Julka is a marketing veteran with over 25 years of experience in the alcoholic beverage and beauty industries. A specialist in consumer focused brands.

[00:00:37] Damian: Julka is responsible for the marketing vision, strategy, and execution of the Campari Group's brands.

[00:00:44] At the same time, she has a bird's eye view of the company's worldwide presence, coordinating teams based in Milan, Paris, and New York.

[00:00:52] Ilyse: We started by asking her about how she balances the Campari legacy with keeping its brands relevant for today's [00:01:00] consumers.

[00:01:02] Damian: So Campari has a rich heritage. The company is now 164 years old. How do you go about balancing its legacy, the preservation of its legacy while keeping the brand modern and relevant for today's consumers?

[00:01:18] Julka: I think that, if we go back to the roots of the Campari brand, about being

[00:01:23] bold, about being visionary about investing in arts, think about Europe, Italy in the second half of the 19th century. There were so, few brands really investing Campari was one of the first really interacting with artists

[00:01:42] and designers and giving them the freedom to, the brand in the way they saw it. if you look at how we started, you how we moved forward along our, our history. You can see that, the [00:02:00] twenties and thirties of last we start cooperating with cinema, really asking the people, working in the industries and producing the movies, postcards, producing, you know, designs and drawings for us.

[00:02:16] You can see that, fast forward, to the eighties. We start cooperating with one of the greatest filmmakers. In the world, Federico Fellini, that was a big fan of the Campari brand. He was drinking Campari and he decided to cooperate with us to produce an advertising for the brand. And Fellini was the first filmmaker we cooperated with. But then, we kept this partnership, for instance, with Paolo Sorrentino 2017. And I was personally You know, working with him, it was a fantastic experience to see an artist really bringing to life, the brand, [00:03:00] respecting the legacy, but at the same time, renovating, since you're asking me how a brand modern still loyal to its root, it was amazing to see how we could kept the daring, attitude of the brand alive. According to his own style. 

[00:03:20] Ilyse: Wow,that is super cool. so is pop culture still as important to the brand even today? 

[00:03:27] Julka: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, and this is so important for the Campari brand, but for many other brands part of our portfolio, just for you to know, we have more than 50 brands. in our portfolio, and if you’d like we can talk about some of them, but when it, comes to Campari, think about the fact that our partnership with arts, have been, more recently renovated in our, cooperation with the major film festivals, in the world. We, are [00:04:00] partners of the Cannes Film the Locarno, in Berlinale. weclosed the first, year of partnership with the Toronto Film that's definitely a modern way to the brand, extremely aspirational, but still to get in touch with so many consumers and possible advocates of the brand. One of the things we really care about is not just to communicate our brands, but to assure our consumer to consume our brands throughout the signature cocktails in the best way possible and definitely feel festival for us are a huge opportunity to provide liquid tulips, as we say, to our consumers current and future. 

[00:04:47] Damian: What's interesting is with these different brands, you're sort of talking about how they're valued differently in different markets. that's very interesting to me. How do you know and prioritize [00:05:00] which brands work best in which countries? 

[00:05:04] Julka: We have, well identified, what we call the global brands. The brands that should be built everywhere in the world. Of course step by step and respecting the life stages, the brand is in a specific geography. And definitely the one I mentioned so far, are global brands. And so also global priorities, for the company. And then, depending on the area of the world, the characteristics of the market and the consumers, each individual, operating company, can, compose, portfolio, to have the best performance on the market. But definitely there are priorities everybody to focus 

[00:05:51] Damian: if you think about the United States, is there a sort of priority?

[00:05:55] Julka: Yeah, 

[00:05:56] Damian: Leading brand here.

[00:05:58] Julka: definitely, [00:06:00] uh, the priority for the United our giant aperitif brands, such as Campari Aperol, Grand Manier, Wild Turkey, Espolon, and of course, the local team is really excited to rebuild the Courvoisier brand. always acquisition we have just finalized.

[00:06:21] Damian: Yeah, each of those brands has its own kind of, whole kind of narrative around them, I imagine. But I wanted to ask you actually a little bit about, The current moment that we're in, which we're seeing a kind of a lot of debate around alcohol versus no alcohol consumption, particularly when it comes to like Gen Z demographics. I mean, how do you think about and navigate these perception shifts? 

[00:06:47] Julka: That's a very that's a very interesting question. And of course, as you can imagine, we have been spending a lot of time and resources really to dig deep into these shift and [00:07:00] transformation in a way of our consumer ships. One thing that is not that evident to, to everybody is that differently from the past, there is a sort of coexistence of, people drinking alcoholic products and non alcoholic products, depending on the moment they are in, the people they are with, what they have to do the day after.

[00:07:23] And this kind of consciousness and, control on what to choose is even stronger in younger consumers as you were mentioned so they are more conscious they don't they are not you know afraid to make a choice that could be out of 

[00:07:43] their are pool of friends. Everybody's drinking something alcoholic There's no problem at all for one of them to say “Look tomorrow I have to wake up very early I have a very important day I prefer to, to opt for a choice, a non alcoholic choice.” So more than a counter position [00:08:00] today, we see the coexistence, of these kind of choices, which is quite interesting, honestly, also because it gives us the opportunity to be more, mindful and, intentional in developing also the part of our portfolio, which is non alcoholic. For instance, we have a product which is an extremely strong product in Italy and definitely in a phase of conquering of continental Europe is, the name of the product is Crodino and is definitely our non alcoholic, kind of spritz. is a product that was invented and launched in the market, in 1965.

[00:08:39] So this is a little bit a testament, to the personality of the company, wanting really to push boundaries. And actually we are preparing the launch of these fantastic product also in the U S, that we plan for next year. 

[00:08:54] Ilyse: So it sounds like Campari really anticipated this trend of non alcoholic [00:09:00] beverages in a sense. 

[00:09:02] Julka: Yeah, that's, that's correct. That's correct. 

[00:09:05] Damian: I'm just curious on that point, you know, as a marketer, you must get lots of data back in terms of like, who's drinking what, maybe by generation, maybe by geography even. I'm interested to know, do you kind of look at that in terms of strategizing and find the discrete markets? 

[00:09:24] Julka: even if, with the passing of the years, what we, really is of people. So demographics are not, gender or age brackets are not the main elements we look for because what really counts. Today is the mindset and the attitude of people, for instance, if I think about a product like Aperol with these with its signature cocktail, Aperol can see across generations drinking this product and across age brackets is the mindset.

[00:09:57] And you would be amazed how people approaching Aperol [00:10:00] Spritz, enjoying Aperol Spritz, they really have in common, the way they appreciate life and what they are looking for in that specific moment. Either they are, 25 or 60. So there are also, a number of cross generational, alcoholic beverage experiences, and so the way we look at data is really about the motivation and the attitude of people when they are about to make a choice. 

[00:10:27] Ilyse: Yeah, that kind of, shift towards mindset over demographics probably helps a lot when it comes to just I guess prioritizing channels for the brand and where to reach those audiences because I know in a lot of the times like Millennials and Gen Zers are in like social media and usually that's not an option when it comes to alcohol brands, is, so is the brand finding other channels to be just as effective, in reaching that kind of mindset that it's [00:11:00] after.

[00:11:00] Julka: when, I think a strong, distinctive characteristic Of our marketing and activation strategies, really investing very seriously in, in events, because definitely there's a lot of will among consumers of all ages, really to leave, events, in person really experience, on their, skin, much more than in the past.

[00:11:24] and then we amplify, if you want, through social media, those events. But, a big part of our investment. is really, put on organizing, these kind of events. When we, when it comes to the U. S., think about Coachella, which is, more than a music festival, is a lifestyle festival, as we all know.

[00:11:43] Think about the U. S. Open. uh, but also if we go on the other side of the world, in the APAC region, think about, The Australian Open, which is for us a, opportunity to reach so many consumers. about [00:12:00] hundreds of thousands live offering our best signature cocktail in our, fantastic lounger and then we can definitely amplify this content on a number of social media where. alcoholic beverage can, have a direct relationship, with their consumers. So for us, it's always a mix. we really believe that we have winning products, very straightforward drinking strategy, and that's why we care so these to life in real life for we don't see this business as happening just, just virtually. Definitely. 

[00:12:42] How do you kind of maintain and sort of keep tabs, as it were, on people who are loyal to the brands that you market?

[00:12:52] definitely over the yearsWe invested and we improved, our, CRM, capacity, so [00:13:00] throughout, social media and massively through events, we gather as much as possible information about our consumers so that, we can definitely keep them, up to date. On our, yearly, program, but also we can establish a more direct dialogue.

[00:13:18] Sometimes we consult them, a part of them for new projects. we listen to them, ask them questions about, trends, want to know more and I think that, especially when it comes to a lab important.

[00:13:39] Feel part of a feel, really listen to is something as important as enjoying your favorite, brand and your

[00:13:50] Damian: And what's interesting to me is I was thinking about this because about, maybe 12 years ago, I have a friend from Venice who lives in New York and we went to a [00:14:00] restaurant and she ordered an Aperol and at that, point it wasn't very, nobody really knew much about it here.

[00:14:06] And since then, of course, it's huge. It's like a probably one of the most popular, cocktails around. I was just at the U. S. Open in the summer and I could see, your your

[00:14:16] plaza there with Aperol everywhere. I guess it was, there's a sponsor, a partnership 

[00:14:20] Julka: Mm hmm. 

[00:14:21] Damian: But my question is, how did you could you walk us through how you, built that awareness from, that moment, however many years ago when it wasn't such a big, obviously big in Venice, she said it was the Venetian drink.

[00:14:34] So I was like, Oh, that's interesting.

[00:14:39] Julka: yes, I am. 10, 12 years ago, not only in the U. S., but in many other places outside Europe, definitely it was not established. you know, staple it is to die. and at the very beginning, we really faced, some very basic, difficulties. I have to say, it was not easy, to start [00:15:00] talking about, a signature cocktail that, needed, a bottle of Prosecco to be open, to be prepared because.

[00:15:07] You know, if you are familiar with sparkly wines, the problem with it is that if you open it and you use just a little part and then you keep the bottle for a couple of days, the carbonation will just, yes, go away. So it was really. a very precise, consistent, and stubborn work of education.

[00:15:28] There's just one certainty about education, which is that, you know, when you started that you will never know when you will finish. And actually it's a never ending story in a way. So we, in the past we put, and we keep putting a lot of, effort and an investment in educating the trade the bartenders bar owners But also the final consumers because at the end if the final consumer knows

[00:15:52] the best way to prepare an upper spritz They will be your advocate and it happened to me so many times in the past [00:16:00] when I was receiving at the table in upper spritz that was not preparing the way It should have been, I was going back to the bar and I was saying there's something wrong with my cocktail.

[00:16:13] it's a double, a double direction 

[00:16:16] Julka: Yeah, 

[00:16:18] efforts. And, Also, a very important part is, what we call, the oil spill approach. What does it mean? We start with the city, a major city, we start with the specific neighbors. and key on trade outlets in this neighbor.

[00:16:39] We build a relationship of partnership. We invest on these venues and we create the phenomenon of the cocktail and then we expand. So distribution and presence comes just

[00:16:52] after having started trend with a very high level, of the serve in a smaller [00:17:00] number of venues.

[00:17:01] This, has been the approach in the U. S. and in every other part of the world. You mentioned Venice, which is the place where the brand really, started being known and appreciated and, recognized as, the champion of aperitif. But the phenomenon of Aperol Spritz started in Venice, expanded to the Veneto region, which is the region of Venice, and then expanded Milan and from Milan to the rest of Italy.

[00:17:28] So the oil spill approach, as we call it, has always been, front and center of the strategy, of, And it's building. 

[00:17:38] Ilyse: So interesting. when you think of Campari brands, it also sorts of implies Like a level of sophistication. in a sense, are marketing just drinks or is it something more, I don't know, like lifestyle? 

[00:17:53] Julka: definitely. I think that,our brands are starting from, The most important ones really [00:18:00] stand for a certain lifestyle. you think about campari, it really represents the Milan. And, the lifestyle of the city. If you, think about aperol, you're talking about a more democratic sort of brand, really more casual. welcome. and, So they,

[00:18:21] reflect a way of living and today even more important. If you think about the trend of escapism, traveling without traveling. I need a break. I need a moment for myself of real enjoyment with my friends.

[00:18:36] brands like this, and they are signature cocktail, let's say Aperol Spritz for Aperol, Negroni, for instance, for Campari makes you really full for half hour, one hour you're spending with your friends in another place. So they really stand for a way of living for a place and for a moment in life where you really, recharge your batteries and, [00:19:00] you dedicate really a true moment to yourself. 

[00:19:03] Julka: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:19:05] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:19:08] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:19:15] Damian: Cairns. And remember, 

[00:19:16] Julka: we really believe that we have winning products, and that's why we care so these to life we don't see this business as happening just virtually. 

[00:19:29] Damian: I'm Damian.

[00:19:30] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:19:30] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Samsung’s Olga Suvorova sat down with The Current Podcast to discuss engaging with Gen Z audiences, balancing omnichannel strategies and tapping into cultural trends.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:12] Damian: This week we're delighted to talk with Olga Suvarova, the VP of Mobile Experience Marketing at Samsung.

[00:00:18] Olga has recently overseen the launch of new Galaxy foldable phones and family of new wearables powered by Galaxy AI, a watch, buds, and a new smart Galaxy Ring. 

[00:00:35] On a recent LinkedIn post, Olga wrote, “We are reimagining how we create, interact, work out, communicate, stay healthy, multitask, travel, capture ordinary and extraordinary with Galaxy AI.”

[00:00:47] That, sort of, almost sums up the human experience.

[00:00:51] Ilyse: So much of phone tech is tied up with culture, and that's where we start.

[00:00:55] Damian: So Olga, we know culture plays a large role in smartphone sales. Do you think this is even more true today? 

[00:01:04] Absolutely. Phones, smartphones, wearables, tablets are such an important part of people's lives. More so than it has ever been. So we're thinking about not just driving sales and connecting to culture, but understanding what are the cultural spaces, what are the nuggets of interest that are resonating with our consumers and how can we build experiences specifically for that?

[00:01:33] Whether it's the new ways to create things thanks to Galaxy Eye, whether it's the new ways to track your health and sleep and overall wellness, or a completely reimagined experience of productivity and work.

[00:01:50] Damian: And as you said in that LinkedIn post, the phone is connected to all these different aspects of our lives. That's kind of mind blowing when you think about it.

[00:01:58] So, you know, you, talk about [00:02:00] culture and it's very interesting to me that culture and pop culture in particular is so connected to the idea of smartphone sales.

[00:02:09] I mean, it's a fashion item as much as a, you know, a utility item. How do you tap into sort of current trends and fashions? And how do you tie that to marketing the phones and the wearables, indeed? 

[00:02:24] Absolutely, and because smartphones are at the center of what we do every single day, whether it's more of a utility or truly fun and delightful experiences, we have always been big on driving partnerships and collaboration with like minded change makers and incredible players within different cultural spaces.

[00:02:46] And fashion is one of the greatest examples because when we think about technology and fashion. At the core of both is this relentless drive of inspiration and creativity and [00:03:00] self expression. So just recently, we've built an entire partnership around New York Fashion Week, partnering with an incredible designer, LeQuan Smith, and working with him to put the smartphone and the smart ring, so foldable phone, fold six, and the galaxy ring at the core of his creative experiences.

[00:03:25] And redesigning and reimagining what it could be and launching an entire new collection that we called Lucid Dreams by LeQuan Smith. But what was very exciting about it is not only finding a way to build something incredible together, like this new collection, but also watching and getting inspired by LeQuan using  our incredible Samsung Galaxy technology, including Galaxy I throughout the process. So for example, Live Translate and Kohl's being automatically translated in over 15 languages [00:04:00] that he used to drive a lot of conversations with partners and vendors around the world.

[00:04:06] Ilyse: Now I want to get into how you think about your audiences. As you said, everybody uses a smartphone these days. Obviously there's a lot of focus on reaching Gen Z audiences who are, to put it, lightly less than brand loyal sometimes. How do you appeal to these potential customers through your exploration of culture?

[00:04:27] Olga: It's definitely not a one size fits all approach. And the ways they behave and where they spend their time could be different than other audiences. And we think about all those elements as we design different experiences.

[00:04:51] We're not just trying to target them with the same ads, no matter how amazing they are, as we would do with like the other [00:05:00] demographics. and that's why, when it comes to Gen Z and engaging them, deploying other strategies comes into play. for example, We've built an entire ecosystem of team Galaxy creators that are fantastic at building relationships versus trying to transact with that audience, and they are the champions of our brand, but they also the incredible connector to what those audiences care about and help us build that meaningful conversation with them.

[00:05:30] Ilyse: What about outside of, say, social media? Because we're really living in like an omnichannel world now. How do you layer in different channels when it comes to your strategy, and how do you balance brand awareness and then performance? 

[00:05:45] Olga: I know there is a lot being talked about brand awareness versus performance, but I really like to think about it as not one versus the other. Brand drive performance. And it's about building that puzzle [00:06:00] together and finding how different pieces come into play. And for us, it's really building this omni channel approach, and it's not just the social media.

[00:06:09] It's building that reach ecosystem off experiential activations, partnerships, tapping into influencers, thinking about how can we create media worthy moments. So for example, Team Galaxy Creator Collective is one of the ways we drive that relationship and engagement. Building a lot of conversation and community engagement in our social channels plays a huge role.

[00:06:35] Experiential and partner activations, whether it's New York Fashion Week or our partnership with Red Bull, and reimagining how we show up at incredible first female competitions like Magnitude or a cliff diving or something else incredible.

[00:06:52] Damian: mean, one of the challenges of your job is to stay on top of the fast moving, nature of culture. You have to be responsive. And I [00:07:00] think one of the most brilliant illustrations of that was earlier this year when, there was a certain ad that was that rolled out called, crushed where creative tools were being smashed into a tablet.

[00:07:10] And Samsung had a quick responds with an ad called Uncrushed. Could you talk a little bit about that, that moment and what happened there and how you responded and generally about how you need to be sort of quick on your feet when it comes to being a marketer

[00:07:25] Olga: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it comes down to a combination of being very clear about what you stand for as a brand and what your reason for being is, and being quick and nimble and constantly evolving to be at the center of that conversation.

[00:07:43] And for us, when that, um, competitive ad came out, that was pretty much against everything we stand for. Which is open innovation and forcing and fueling the creativity and self expression on people's terms. And that's why for us it [00:08:00] wasn't just a rebuttal, but it was a very thoughtful It was a very, very quick response to, even though very, very quick articulation and expression of what we hold near and dear to our heart and championing that incredible community of creative people, and that's why we call that response and crash.

[00:08:15] It wasn't a campaign plan for months. it was a very quick response. it went on social because it was so true and authentic and because it was executed in a very quick manner, we were able to garner. A lot of response and a lot of coverage without actually spending any money on it.

[00:08:34] Damian: That's amazing. Do you think sometimes those quick response, campaigns, if you like, or ads, in some ways, are kind of more unexpected ads, are more, what's the word? effective in some ways than ones that may have taken a long time to plan.

[00:08:48] Olga: It's probably a combination of both because I don't want to say don't plan, go with the flow and try to do everything within 48 hours. I wouldn't recommend that. But as you said, [00:09:00] The brand's ability to stay current and to stay top of mind for consumers is being constantly in tune with what consumers are doing and what they care about and what's happening in the competitive environments and what is top of mind for people.

[00:09:17] So it's probably a combination of both and that what defines the brands that are able to champion what they stand for in a way that never loses authenticity and relevance.

[00:09:28] Ilyse: Originally I saw a lot of backlash when it first out. Did you look at that backlash at all? Or was it something that you weren't even paying attention to and you just wanted to jump on it regardless?

[00:09:40] Olga: wanted to be very much focused not only on what we're against, but what we're for. And that's what drove that response. We are about creativity, we are about open innovation, we are about celebrating the expression, and we're about pushing boundaries [00:10:00] rather than crushing everything underneath that. So that was probably as important, if not more important than trying to think what people are pulling apart around that original ad.

[00:10:11] Ilyse: in a world where there's two operating systems, okay, you have iOS and Android. How do you view the competition in the space? Is it one system versus another? Or is it all about the product?

[00:10:25] Olga: Well, at the core of the Samsung mobile brand has been this idea and ethos of openness and open innovation and collaboration and building the products and experiences and the ecosystem of products that pushes away the boundaries that might be forced on those products and ultimately deliver subpar experience.

[00:10:47] So for us, it's relentless focus on delivering that. Open innovation, and that comes through how we build products, how we design those experiences, how we partner with like minded change makers in the [00:11:00] industry to really reimagine what those experiences are. Products could be whether it's partnering with Google to build circle to search, incredible functionality or Qualcomm or Microsoft for us.

[00:11:12] The fewer barriers there are in the world, the further we can all go. The more we can drive towards that truly accessible, equitable, representative world and human innovation. So I would say I like to think about it not as a competition per se, but, What is our enemy? And oftentimes the enemy is the barriers and complacency and the inertia that exists within the industry or within the consumer behavior.

[00:11:43] And how do we build not only the product experiences, but also incredible marketing messages and campaigns to really shake that up and drive towards progress.

[00:11:56] Ilyse: Now when you're marketing, and especially when it comes to like [00:12:00] new products and new pieces of technology, what would you say is a sell for a new piece of tech? So is it the technology itself or is it looking at the tech and how it can enhance creativity for that user?

[00:12:14] Olga: One hundred percent the latter one. It's all about it's never about technology and the conversation. We started with is smartphones and tablets and the mobile experiences being at the core of what we do every single day. So our focus, even with the latest launch earlier this year of Galaxy AI, has been how do we showcase what it could do for people, whether it's sketching AI photo editing, whether it's communicating across boundaries, because you have this wonderful life translated.

[00:12:48] you know, reimagining your capability or reimagining how your earbuds connect to your phone and your tablet in a very, very seamless way. So it's all about what you can [00:13:00] do with it, whether it is something to help you save time or it's truly for fun.

[00:13:05] Damian: fun. Now that brings us to the question of A. I. And the integration of A. I. Into new phones. And that for sure is a hot topic right now. And it's not just phones, of course. Could we talk a little bit about, you know, your thoughts on A.

[00:13:19] I. On and the marketing of the products that you there on your watch? A.

[00:13:26] Olga: and Galaxy Eye that we introduced in January and since then rolled out across the portfolio of our mobile products is not just a fancy and flashy new feature. It's truly at the core of where technology is going and how we can make it more accessible. More exciting, more delightful, more useful to our consumers.

[00:13:48] And we see that in how they have been using that technology. Right now there are over a hundred million devices. All around the world that have been using [00:14:00] Galaxy AI. We know that just in the US alone, within a week, there are

[00:14:05] Damian: are 78

[00:14:06] Olga: 78 million of instances when people are using those Galaxy AI features. And that's an incredible consumer response that tells us we're in the right track and we're building something that people love, that people find value in, and that helps us get more ideas for how we can innovate further.

[00:14:24] Ilyse: You know, on that note, you are a big proponent of brand love and, and really diving into what I guess makes consumers keep coming back to a brand. Why would you say it's important to generate that kind of buzz around a brand?

[00:14:45] Olga: It's really important to keep being relevance and being meaningful to consumers. It's important for people to feel something about your brand and in order to build and nurture that brand [00:15:00] love. We need to be very, very clear about what is that reason for being? What do we want to be remembered for, known for?

[00:15:09] How do we want to make people feel? And on the other hand, continue to constantly evolve based on what people are telling us. Being open to it, having the desire, having the drive to really, keep reinventing ourselves without ever losing that core and that ethos of our brand. And for us, it's always been that idea of openness and open innovation and relentless pursuit of breaking barriers and pushing boundaries. 

[00:15:40] Ilyse: So, Olga, how do you layer in different channels when it comes to your overall strategy?

[00:15:46] Olga: It's a combination of different channels that help us in a very personalized way reach Diverse communities and audiences from the demographic from the psychographic perspective, so we think about our [00:16:00] universe, including online video advertising, because that creates the opportunity to be extremely targeted and very measurable.

[00:16:10] We also deploy, um, a lot of our advertising through programmatic ads by similarity. It allows a lot of precision and a lot of scale, but we also layer in different approaches to social media platforms. So, for example, how we build for platforms with matter is different for, uh, What we do with snap and spotify and twitch, which again allows us to show up in a consistent way, but in a more relevant and tailored approach, obviously, that all is connected to the work that we do through our partnerships, through our influencer work and a lot of our experiential and out of home media. 

[00:16:51] Damian: I have to ask you though we mentioned at the top the Galaxy AI ring, you’re wearing it. Can you tell us a little about it? 

[00:16:59] Olga: a [00:17:00] huge fan. I can't get enough of it. It's an incredible piece of technology. Again, it's powered by Galaxy AI, and it's an incredible device that allows you to track your sleep patterns, your health, your energy score.

[00:17:16] So it tells you basically how you are doing, what you could be doing differently to feel better, gives you What we call wellness tips, and it's perfectly connected to your other devices, whether it's watch or the Samsung Galaxy phone, so you can actually get obsessed about those metrics. I have to say, I haven't been the healthiest person, according to this ring, but I have tons of wellness tips to get me to a better place.

[00:17:40] Damian: That's great to hear. Well, thank you so much for speaking with us. 

[00:17:46] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:17:48] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:17:51] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The Current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns. And remember, 

[00:17:59] Olga: We are [00:18:00] about creativity, we are about open innovation, we are about celebrating the expression, and we're about pushing boundaries rather than crushing everything underneath that.

[00:18:11] Damian: I'm Damian.

[00:18:12] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:18:13] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The founder and CEO of The Trade Desk, Jeff Green, talks about the evolution of the premium internet, his obsession with the ad tech supply chain and why the connected TV (CTV) ecosystem is ready for an upgrade.

Green explains why The Trade Desk is launching Ventura, a streaming TV operating system, named after the California beach town, to improve the CTV ecosystem for publishers, advertisers and consumers.

__________

The Current is owned and operated by The Trade Desk Inc.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Toby Espinosa, the VP of DoorDash ads, reflects on the tremendous growth of the delivery platform, saying the key to this is local businesses.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

Damian: [00:00:00] I'm Damian Fowler.

Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Toby Espinoza, the VP of DoorDash Ads.

Damian: And Toby is responsible for connecting brands, local and national, to the more than 37 million customers who place orders on DoorDash marketplaces each month.

Ilyse: At this point, DoorDash is a household name, no pun intended. It has more than 7 million couriers delivering orders for DoorDash from around 550, 000 merchants.

Damian: Hard to believe that the company was founded just over 10 years ago in 2013. And Toby joined the company in 2015. So he's seen DoorDash go from strength to strength.

Naturally, we start by asking him about how the company has changed over the last decade.

Ilyse: So Toby, DoorDash celebrated its 10th anniversary last year. And I, I remember when you guys launched, I would just say, because I was like a hungry college student at the time.

And it was like, perfect timing to get [00:01:00] anything delivered to my dorm

Toby: And where were you?

Ilyse: In San Francisco.

Toby: Francisco? No way. Oh, awesome.

Ilyse: was like, yeah, it was like I was in the right place at the right time for sure. Yes. And, so how would you say has the company evolved from a food delivery platform to the platform it is today?

Toby: When I joined the company, we were in 4, 5 metros.

And we were completely focused on one product in four or five markets. And back in 2015 when I joined the food delivery market, as you remember, seamless reigned supreme in New York. Grubhub was in Chicago and everywhere else food delivery was pizza: Domino's, Papa John's, Pizza Hut. And a few local restaurants that were able to afford having couriers. The market, everybody thought, was saturated. We entered, the company had a thesis that the market itself, given the advent of mobile technology, we believed that [00:03:00] if you took this device, this mobile device, where now a dasher had a mobile phone, a consumer had a mobile phone, and actually restaurants had access to this mobile superhighway, that if we connected all of them, there would be a larger opportunity for growth.

Growth being the key word there, because as much as DoorDash has changed over the last 10 years, we have gone from a one product, one market business to a multiple product, multiple geography business, with 37 million monthly active users, over 15 million monthly active subscribers to our platform.

If you go back to our founding story, Tony, Stanley and Andy, when they started DoorDash, walked down University Avenue in Palo Alto and they went from store to store asking every local business, how can I help you grow? That was the founding question. It wasn't can I build a logistics network, it wasn't, can I build an ad business? It was, “Hey, how can I help you grow?” And the opportunity they found was let's do a restaurant oriented delivery network for everybody across suburban markets. And that's what took off.

Ilyse: How would you say that growth has like translated on the ads marketplace side of things? 

Toby: Yeah.

The hard part about building something at the scale that DoorDash [00:05:00] operates is the consumer side. Building a consumer promise and then making that promise better and better and better every day, getting faster and cheaper, that is actually the harder part to find.

Product market fit from a consumer perspective. Once we have that, and once we have that, we want to continue to compound that over and over and over again

About four, four years ago, five years ago, our merchants and so stores within our ecosystem raised their hand and started to ask us, “Hey, do you have any tools to help me grow even faster?” That's how the ad business started. It was a it's very fundamental. It's a core to who we are. It's a growth business. We have customers who want to grow [00:06:00] faster. And what we then tried to figure out was how can we help serve this promise for these customers while also helping our marketplace continue to grow?

So the best way to do that is to align incentives, uh, show us the incentive, and we'll show you the outcome that we're driving towards.

Our AD team is incentivized both by driving incremental return from a spend perspective for advertisers, as well as driving incremental volume for our consumer marketplace, which is very different than most advertising platforms. Most advertising houses, you have product and tech on one side driving growth, and you have ads trying to monetize it on the other side. We wanted to bring those together to make sure we were able to continue to grow on both sides and serve our customers best. 

Damian: And cut to date to this rise of, spectacular rise of retail media, which of course is one of the hottest topics right now in our space. DoorDash of course has built its own retail media network in recent years. Could you talk a little bit about how you took some of those concepts you just talked about and built the network?

Toby: Yeah, absolutely. So we, again we wanted to be completely aligned with the customer. So the first customer that we started to think about was the SMB owner operator restaurant that we all know, that's in our town.

In San Francisco, it's Suvla. In New York, it's Electric Burrito. These places that, these brands [00:08:00] that we are absolutely in love with. What we quickly realize is that person, that customer, there's two fundamental things that are very difficult.

The first is that they have to be an expert at 15 different things So, if we own a local restaurant, a local retailer, We have to be great at real estate. We have to be great at marketing. We have to be great at financials. We have to be great at accounting. We have to be great at customer service. We have to be great at creating a great product, which is food, right?

And so when we look at this core customer, they're supposed to be an expert at 15 different things Our job is to go after one of those. And make sure that they don't have to think about that growth as [00:09:00] much as they used to by putting a little bit of the burden of that growth on our shoulders. What that means in practice when we launched the business for for SMB customers, we focused on building an economic model that worked for them. 

Last week, in San Francisco, I went and picked up a salad. at, at one of my favorite, favorite places. And there was a restaurant right next door that had just opened a month in. A month in, and nobody in his restaurant.

Completely empty. Maybe three or four people in a, in, that could otherwise have a capacity of 50. And I went online and I looked. He was running advertising across a bunch of different channels that we all know. Snap, Google, Meta, etc.

This person was in the red month day one of the month.

It's one of the hardest things in this country. These small businesses that start [00:10:00] negative every single month. And on top of that, they also had to layer in more spend on Google and meta to try to get out of that hole.

We took the premise of we want to be your growth assistant and we took the premise of it's really, really hard. for you to basically grow your business without having to also add more money into this negative cash cycle.

And we said, let's build a product where you do not have to pay us unless you get an order.

So unless we send you money, you do not have to pay us. And those two things together have helped us build one of the fastest growing retail media networks, particularly focused on a customer that was completely underserved. 

Damian: Could you talk about, a little bit more about how you [00:11:00] kind of expanded those relationships with both the national brands, tying that into the local, the business works at a local level fundamentally.

Toby: So in the restaurant space. The vast, vast majority of restaurants on Main Street are local. Even if you are a McDonald's franchisee, so you have one of the largest brands, you're a, you're a small business owner.

Really, the, the Starbucks, the Chipotles of the world that are corporately owned restaurants at scale are actually the smallest. They're the 10%, not the 90 percent in the U. S. And so our ad product designed on a CPA based level where we can be the growth assistant for all these owner operators is really for the 90.

It's built for the majority. Um, that being said, we also just launched, uh, last week the our new product, which is our ad manager and our [00:12:00] ad manager for the enterprise restaurant segment is designed actually to help both the C. M. O. Of McDonald's and the owner operator franchisee within the system. And the way that we've done that is we've actually built the first of its kind way of buying or thinking about purchasing across

A national media buyer, an agency at the national level, a district media buyer, most of these franchisees actually also have districts, or DMAs, where they have their own pools of funds that can be allocated for growth, and then also at the local level. Incremental to that, not only is if you're a franchisee and you own a couple McDonald's and a couple, uh, you know, a couple Subways and a couple other brands. Now you can also manage your business across brands. It's really the first of a kind product in its space, designed entirely to kind of work between local and national brand.

We also, of course, support local. started to invest in larger CPGs. And there, you know, we really look at some of the other large retail media networks in the [00:13:00] space. You know, today I was reading the the amazing work that you all did with a woman who leads Kroger's retail media business and built it from scratch.

We find a lot of inspiration from those folks learning, understanding how we can add an incremental service to folks that are already spending a lot of money at other retail media networks. And, um, and I think we found Uh, some very cool opportunities for us there, 

Ilyse: Very cool. You were saying how it's about 90 percent SMBs and 10 percent um, big business. Um, how does that play out within the DoorDash platform?

Toby: yeah.

yeah. So so it's really and when I meant that it's kind of think about where the dollars are coming from. So You might think of DoorDash Volume as large businesses. You know, a lot of people are ordering McDonald's. But the reality is the, the spender, the buyer of media could be a local franchisee.

So the brand is national, but the spend is still local. That's kind of what I was saying there. On [00:14:00] the, as you know, also on the CPG side, uh, large brands like Pepsi and Coca Cola and P& G, those are large, national, entrenched franchises. Brands. Those are timeless, timeless brands that have been around for a very long time.

And so the question there is, how do we build products that are timely to help the timeless? And that's been a very interesting journey for us over the last two and a half years. It's a, it's a new space for us again, as I said. Um, but it's going swimmingly well. And, and today we have the opportunity to sit on stage with, with Pernod Ricard, which is, of course, one of the storied alcohol manufacturers.

Ilyse: Um, can you talk a little bit about the Partnerships and how you actually go about working with like those brands and retailers that are using your platform so much 

Toby: We, like I said, were founded as a growth helper. So built in our DNA is working with others to help them grow.

We obviously have a [00:15:00] very large consumer marketplace that is that has helped those businesses grow. And so some of us think of in the same You know, uh, letters of other large consumer marketplaces like an Amazon, uh, like a Walmart e com.

But we are fundamentally built in our DNA a partner oriented culture. What that means is first we get to partner with great local brands, mid market brands, national brands, add in the manufacturers, but that also means we get to do fun things like Add in Max, or add in Chase, or add in other folks where there are a lot of people, if given the opportunity, want to help local businesses grow.

Our job is to help figure out a way to make that happen. 

Ilyse: would you say that is captured users I guess and they're

Toby: It's a, no, it's a great question. The underlying thing is, how do we do it in a way that continues to compound our consumer promise, which is faster, better, cheaper. And, and, you know, we'll be the first to say there are some partnerships [00:16:00] where it doesn't necessarily help that much.

And then there's other partnerships where it has been critical. Think about our Chase partnership and, and the depth in which we've built that partnership over time, where everybody that has a, you know, a Chase credit card has the opportunity to participate in one of the largest subscription, local subscription programs, uh, in the world.

And so, some work quite well, others are challenging, and we're a first principled company that, that tries to get better every single day.

Damian: Just to on that point are you very strategic about looking for new partnerships you know, that's an interesting one chase and of course there are many others but how do you think about it and go about building those different partnerships.

Toby: Yeah it's a collaboration Internally within DoorDash, we have, uh, general managers that run different business units, just as myself. We have functional leaders like our incredible, uh, CMO Kofi, who has built one of the world's largest brands in a span of years, not decades, which is incredibly, incredibly amazing, and he is a celebrity. If you ever want to feel like a [00:17:00] celebrity, just walk with Kofi in Cannes for about 15 to 20 minutes and it'll be the coolest thing you'll ever experience.

Um, next year, exactly, exactly. Um, but It's a collaboration across different functions, and then it's a collaboration with a partner. You know, one of the most interesting partnerships that we've launched in the last two years, from my vantage point, is we are a close partner with Amazon in Canada. Now, a lot of folks, when you think of DoorDash and Amazon would say, competitors, that, that doesn't work.

Right. But we work really, really hard to try to figure out anywhere, if possible, with the largest businesses and brands that we look up to, is there a place that we can collaborate and again, help local businesses grow. That's the fundamental premise behind the whole thing 

Ilyse: very cool now what about when it comes to like an ad perspective. How are you working with these brands and partnering with them?

Toby: Yeah, we are, I think in the ad ecosystem, you know, it's, it's, it's, there's a simple recipe that we're trying to follow. One is access. So can I [00:18:00] provide access for people to purchase? We, very early on, our first investment was in a self serve ad manager, so that local businesses could purchase our products, both promotions and our ad products, live themselves, without needing to talk to somebody.

So that was first. So one is access. That's the news also from last week, where now we provide access to the largest restaurant brands, DMAs, and franchisees across the country. first of a kind product. Again, I know I keep saying that, but I'm very, very proud of it because not many people, not many technologists build for franchisees in this country.

And they are one of the largest, um, one of the largest, most hardworking groups of individuals that that again, we look up to. Um, so one is access Two is providing the tools to get the best return possible. So that is, can I do better targeting? Can I? Are there new access points that I can, that I can get to?

Along those lines, we've invested a lot in in better targeting again for those enterprise restaurants. [00:19:00] So today you can target new users, you can target lapsed users, you can do that if you're a brand, a small brand like a single owner operator, you can do it if you're a national restaurant, and you can also do it if you're one of the largest brands in the country.

So one is better targeting tools and incrementality. And then the final is, is impressions. So, You know, DoorDash, again, we are humbly one of the favorite and largest marketplaces in the country. But we very well know there are other people that are hungry on a daily basis who are not eyes on DoorDash.

And so, can we provide the ability for people, uh, for brands to reach those people using our data? And that was one of the announcements we made last week was as well.

Ilyse: so one of the things I feel like DoorDash is almost known for in the advertising marketing space is it aligns itself to big occasions throughout the year.

Ilyse: I know we saw [00:20:00] DoorDash for the Super Bowl, Mother's Day. Can you talk about how you plan for such occasions? And maybe what's your favorite one to work at on and be like present

Toby: maybe what's Yeah We have learned over time that these occasions. Because we learned from our core customers, both the consumer and merchants that these occasions are important to them.

So if you think of, if you think of Super Bowl, imagine you are a local owner operator of a wing restaurant in Tulsa. Super Bowl is your Super Bowl, right? It is the biggest day of the year where you sell out your entire inventory at the staff up, you have to build for it. We wanted to follow our customers into that moment.

Mother's Day, huge moment.

Both for folks where it's a special day to remember somebody or for folks that are trying to be a mother for the first time, right? So you have this both, both signs, [00:21:00] an incredible opportunity to reach consumers

from an advertising perspective. Again, going back to partnerships, they're tricky.

You have an advertiser who's excited to also follow you into that occasion. And what we try to do with these three way partnerships, we've done them with Wendy's, we've done them with Roku, we've done them with many others, trying to find three way alignment of incentives to, to again, drive local growth for our customers.

Damian: I think one of the best gifts I ever got, was when my son was born somebody bought us a DoorDash gift card which was so helpful to have food delivered you know when you’re at home with this tiny little baby.

Ilyse: Showing up at those occasions, but also, you know, just ongoing brand campaigns. How does that proximity, why is it important for brand building? How does this, like, enable you to extend into new categories?

Toby: Yeah, have you? Um, Our Super Bowl commercial is a great example of this. This past year, uh, the words were a door to more DoorDash went from again being a single vertical single product company to a multi vertical multi product company in a very, very, very fast time frame. Now, consumers are incredible.

They learn very quickly. Habits are harder to change and harder to adapt and move over [00:23:00] time. And so we are in the earliest innings of our consumers really understanding that now you could actually get a pair of sneakers delivered to you on DoorDash when you need a new pair, like I did this weekend in order to go for a run.

And in that moment, being able to kind of jump on these large consumer moments help from our vantage point.

Our 37 million monthly active users start to understand that really DoorDash is here as an assistant in your life across all of these categories and verticals whenever you need us. We aren't just Thai food, now we're also the ability to get something, uh, to get something when you're feeling sick.

And, um, and we're very, very proud to do that and very humbled to do that for our customers. 

Damian: Yeah. that's uh, expanding the whole concept of, of of DoorDash. Um, speaking of expanding the concept, you know, you've also cultivated good partnerships with streaming partners, and you [00:24:00] mentioned Max a little bit earlier. Why is it that streaming and delivery seem to kind of work in synchrony? 

Toby: it's again, I think it goes back to the moment. There's a very happy moment in my household when we finish work. And we have some, we get a little, a door, a little ring on our door, and there's a package outside, and it's filled with two burritos. And we get to turn on Max and watch industry. There's a sliver of moment in time where we're just feeling absolute happiness and joy.

Now, that is a moment that a lot of consumers around the country and around the world feel. We're trying to give everybody a little bit of time back. Again, this concept of putting the weight of other things on our shoulders as a company to help people, to help local economies grow, to help [00:25:00] save consumers time, to help Dashers make a little bit of extra money.

That is what we are trying to do at Dash. And so, aligning ourselves in this moment of peace. This moment of just absolute happiness with a streaming service, which all of us experience,

is a very nice moment to be right next to, uh, to be right next to these brands from a consumer perspective. And so they've been, they've been very, they've been great partnerships so far.

We're very excited, uh, about, about thinking about finding more of those opportunities as time goes 

Damian: about door dashes as a way to get time back, you know, but of course it does does

Ilyse: There's too many things to worry about outside of that. 

Damian: we're going to ask the inevitable question about AI and how, you know, obviously door dash must be integrated with AI technology. But how do you think about it as we look ahead?

Toby: We, as a company were very [00:26:00] data driven company. We have been from our founding. Again, we are riding on the backs of one of the largest technological revolutions of our time, the Internet and then the Internet plus mobile. And so to say that we want to be and continue to be students about how this next revolution will change, both from.

from our merchants, consumers and dashers lives. We are in the very earliest innings and we're trying to learn as fast as possible. Um, I think what's very exciting if you kind of take a step back and you again put on the mindset of the shoes of we are trying to be an assistant for all of our customers across a bunch of different ways.

Dasher Make, uh, from a financial services perspective, helping them make more money, helping them find more opportunities to make money, consumers saving time, and merchants making more. If you kind of put yourselves in all those shoes, and we're trying to be an assistant, AI as a technology will only help accelerate our mission of doing that and then unlocking growth for local.

I think we're going to [00:27:00] see one of the largest increases in, in growth that we desperately, desperately need for those. Places that are our favorite coffee shop, Thai food place, uh, and, and, um, you know, and place to go pick up your, your, your meds when you're a little sick. And so it's, it's a pretty cool future.

We're very excited for it.

Damian: in his 50 seat

Toby: I, we are absolutely, we, to be, to be clear, we DoorDash. He's now using our ad product. So if we can send them any incremental customers, it'll help them. It'll help them grow his business. 

Damian: There's one more question, I guess. And it's a sort of like a forward looking question. And it's are there any innovations that you're thinking about into 2025 that can help with this growth mindset that you've been talking about? 

Toby: we, We've done an okay job. We've done a great job of the access point, which is opening up an ad manager, [00:28:00] opening up a self serve sponsored listing, allowing CPG brands to access our consumers. We've done it. We've done a great job at that. We've done an okay job at the second two, which is.

once you open up a lot of this inventory and help find ways to grow, it gets complex.

I think we've added incremental complexity so far to our customers' lives for most of our customers, our advertisers, and so our team is extremely excited, looking forward to continue to take more of the complexity out of our customer's lives as we layer in more complexity. On the product and engineering platform that we've built internally, and that is a very hard problem to solve, but I have one of the best teams to help us go solve that, and we're very excited to take it on.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

SiriusXM Media’s Lizzie Collins joins The Current Podcast to discuss artificial intelligence, omnichannel campaigns and how influencers should utilize podcasts.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: And welcome to this edition of the Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Lizzie Collins, the SVP of Ad Innovation and B2B Marketing at SiriusXM Media, the advertising arm of SiriusXM, which includes Pandora, the SiriusXM streaming network, as well as the podcast network.

[00:00:21] Damian: There are likely very few people who know more about audio ad innovation than Lizzie, who was actually the very first salesperson at Pandora back in 2006. 

[00:00:31] Ilyse: As a leader at SiriusXM Media, her focus is growing the largest digital audio ecosystem in North America.

[00:00:39] Damian: So without further ado, we'll start by asking Lizzie about what advertisers need to know about the audio ad opportunity in 2024.  

[00:00:47] Ilyse: So Lizzie, tell us, what is it that advertisers need to know about the opportunity to reach people on audio channels?

[00:00:55] Lizzie: Yea, and thanks for having me. I love what you said about, I know everything about audio, but it's been quite a ride from 2006 until now. And I'd say that in this current moment in time, audio has such an important place in the consumer's life. 31, 32, whichever number you want to get hooked to percent of time spent with media is the audio format, and yet marketers are only allocating somewhere between 8, 9 under 10 percent of their media investment to this format.

[00:01:21] So first and foremost, I want advertisers to know just the power of audio. It is an opportunity to reach customers in places where you can't reach them via display or video. It has the power to turn on their brain in a unique way because you have the theater of the mind that has to like fill in the pictures and the faces.

[00:01:38] And so cognitively, it's just such a powerful way to message. And so when you match the power of the format with, Oh my gosh, there's all this incremental time that I'm not messaging to them. We just think there's a real opportunity in audio in general.

[00:01:54] Ilyse: So looking at podcasting at least, podcasting isone of the fastest [00:02:00] growing digital channels. How have you been able to grow programmatic at Sirius XM and Pandora?

[00:02:49] Lizzie: Well podcasting, I think we all love. We're here on a podcast. So this is very meta talking about podcasting on a podcast. I love that. I want to point that out for the listeners. podcasting is not [00:03:00] necessarily new, but the ability for advertisers to buy it at scale with maybe an audience based buying strategy with all of the tracking and targeting that they're used to in digital is what we've really foundationally been putting in place for the last two years.

[00:03:13] So what many don't know is that SiriusXM Media, Pandora, SoundCloud, and all of our other partnerships operate on the AdsWiz platform. And we are an audio first technology company. We built all of our own audio, ad delivery, ad serving, tracking, and whatnot. The opportunity to modernize the podcast space is what's really been the key factor for us to drive revenue in that space.

[00:03:35] And then specific to programmatic without those pipes, right? Without that ability to do dynamic ad insertion, to target audiences, to onboard data, and then digitally deliver those ads, you were going to have buyers doing what they were doing historically one show at a time. I can't tell you the stories, the horror stories of going into the clients and saying, here's our spreadsheet where we're tracking the [00:04:00] podcasts we think we should be buying based on Joe podcast guy in the corner who just happens to know the most about podcasts.

[00:04:06] So It's, the first step was putting that foundational ad tech in place. And the second step has been taking all of what advertisers appreciate in terms of programmatic transaction and bringing it to podcasting. And that's where IAB and others are referencing this significant growth because it's this bringing the best of two worlds together into this medium.

[00:04:26] Ilyse: What would you say are the advantages to programmatic ad buying on audio networks? How is it audience first? Well,

[00:04:34] Lizzie: Well, I think overall you're seeing a big trend in advertisers. Brands, even within the client agencies, publishers wanting to reduce friction on the buy side and the transaction as a whole. So programmatic obviously has been that promise for, gosh, over a decade now, right? To Create just an effortless buying transaction.

[00:04:57] And so when we think [00:05:00] about audio more specifically and audience based buying, like we have to be able to connect all of those pipes and be able to not be this hard to buy. Product. And so we've, you know, I spoke to that in my last example. that's been so much of the work we've done the last two years.

[00:05:16] And then because of all of that, we're a little different than some other audio partners were open ecosystem. So we will work with any third party measurement vendor, transaction partners like the trade desk, um, targeting partners like Comscore and advertisers obviously have their own data and their own ways in which they want to measure.

[00:05:34] And so that's also been, a huge breakthrough for us. For us in terms of allowing you said audience based buying. I mean, just allowing our clients to address their customers in this format in the most effortless way 

[00:05:46] Damian: One of the things that's interesting about audio is how it's different from, TV, which has traditionally been a big brand building medium. Of course, that's changing too because of CTV, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how Pandora thinks about [00:06:00] his ad offerings in terms of the balance between big brand campaigns and performance.

[00:06:06] Lizzie: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think what's hidden in this question is creative in general and trying to help brands understand the power of what audio creative can do. It can create. effortlessly travel cross device, right? It can reach customers where they're not seeing a video ad or they're not seeing a display ad.

[00:06:27] It can get right literally into their ears. And I talked about, the power of that. And so we, I would say, do talk to our customers about different products, drive different results. Of course, you might want mass reach and super efficient for, some effort. That you're trying to push maybe top of funnel or you need something super geo targeted You want to move specific product off a store shelf?

[00:06:50] Yeah, that can impact targeting and that can impact some of what we sell you based on price But we spend a lot more time through our in house agency studio resonate [00:07:00] Helping to educate our customers on the right way to bring the video message into the audio format. If they're a video first creative agency, and that starts with an audio brief, you'd be surprised how many agencies do a creative brief and it doesn't include audio as a way to interpret the brand or determine the call to action.

[00:07:20] And so once we get going in that direction, then we can take all aspects of their KP eyes and build custom creative to meet the needs of whatever they're trying to get the consumer to do. I love

[00:07:30] Damian: I love that, can I ask a follow up question about that? What would you say are some of the salient points about building a good audio brief? Well,

[00:07:47] Lizzie: is the largest podcast network for women in the United States. We beat everyone else. And it's that type of insight and then the creators that are within our podcast network to say, look, [00:07:58] Lizzie: Ashley Flowers is here.

[00:07:59] She's a [00:08:00] massive star in the podcast world. She really has a tempo to her shows. It's true crime. These listeners are so leaned in that you don't need a music bed. You don't need a scream at the listener in that example, which might be more of a sort of traditional upbeat 15 second audio spot that might live in a music station.

[00:08:19] And so a lot of it is trying to understand the customer. Then. What is the, context in which we're targeting? And then of course we have a million best practices about, testing creative. And we use a lot of third parties to come in and actually pre test creative. of course we have all of our own technology, which I mentioned.

[00:08:34] So we'll AB test creative. and again, what I love about audio is that it's pretty effortless to build an audio ad. you can go from brief to a spec spot, 30 minutes. Or less if we're talking about a I produced creative, which we can talk about, too. And so to be able to have all that optionality for an agency to play with actually helps inform a lot of landing the brief.

[00:08:58] And then, of course, we have something to [00:09:00] live with throughout a campaign to reach back to

[00:09:02] Damian: So it's getting a lot more nuanced now that you mentioned creativity, and that's very interesting.

[00:09:07] Lizzie: It's getting more nuanced because, look, you said I was the first salesperson at Pandora and I was, and we were only ever inserting a 15 or a 30 second spot in between your favorite song. Now we're talking about spoken word content, podcast, it could be sports, it could be country music, you're talking about, and then in car.

[00:09:26] at home mobile. So the good news is all of that signal capture we do on our end that we can understand where ultimately this ads running and then that informs how many creative options you need. But it's not like video where that would take months to do, right? This is copy to add is quick.

[00:09:54] Ilyse: When it comes to being more nuanced, looking at podcasts for instance, there’s so many different types op podcasts like true crime you brought up. I like those ones as well. Like crime junkie, [00:10:00] for instance. What kind of audiences are they attracting? And what does that mean for advertisers?

[00:10:06] Lizzie: So the Sirius XM podcast network is over 2500 shows. So you're talking about we're have the most shows in the top 50, but we also have great shows, middle and long tail. And so, it's as diverse as everybody's tastes. I mean, everything from vibe check, which is three African American gay, really outspoken guys that do the latest on news interpreted from their eyes and their ears all the way into crime junkie all the way into sports.

[00:10:34] we have shows about car racing, right? So it's That's what's so special about podcasting. But what's unique about Sirius XM and our specific network is that you don't have to come in and buy one show at a time. You can come in and say, I want women over index and true crime. So that's going to be a nice part of your buy.

[00:10:53] and that's something unique , to what we offer. 

[00:11:00] Ilyse: It's surprising to me, women and true crime for some reason. 

[00:11:01] Lizzie: I know. You know what? I think it's because so many women want to escape. They're day for a moment, all of our beloved housewives at home, like commuting kids around. And it's very cerebral. what's really cool about true crime that I don't think a lot of people understand if you don't listen, is it's problem solving.

[00:11:21] It's like really detailed, trying to get to the bottom of what happened with the story. And I think it turns the brain on in a way that is invigorating. 

[00:11:29] Ilyse: Yeah, on that note, is True Crime like one of the most popular or what are some of those popular genres

[00:11:36] Lizzie: there's so many. Comedy is very popular. Team Coco with Conan O'Brien is within our network. Smartless is a really popular TV show. Sort of mixed in with almost pop culture and comedy. sports is growing fast and specifically, women's sports, which is great. And what, I think is fun about that is there's so much story to tell behind the scenes in sports.

[00:11:58] And I think podcasts can do that in a [00:12:00] way that linear TV can't, news, true crime like we mentioned. And yeah, those would be like my tops.

[00:12:07] Ilyse: Very cool. Why do you think women's sports is growing

[00:12:09] Lizzie: I just think there's so much of a story to tell about a lot of the women athletes and it's all over the news, right? What's happening in women's basketball, women's soccer is now a professional sport where you can make a career at it. I think there's just so much growth in terms of audiences leaning in and there's a bunch of commercial opportunity there.

[00:12:29] And so, women want to tell, women want to tell their story. And you can do that in podcasting in a way you cannot do in other media types. That's why we're here!

[00:12:38] Damian: exactly. Yeah. Now, according to your research with Edison, 66 percent of Gen Z podcast listeners say they listen to or watch podcasts to stay up to date with the latest topics. But only 17 percent say they trust the info they read on social media, our podcast hosts, the new, more trusted social media influences.

[00:12:58] Lizzie: I mean, yes, [00:13:00] short answer is yes, but I don't think it's just podcast. I think any influencer out there that is very invested in their craft and their trade and having a commercial opportunity and being an influencer understands the power of how podcasting and audio more specifically helps them reach their audience.

[00:13:16] So Ashley flowers is a great example. She's on social all the time, whether she's talking about fashion or her famous lip color or what shows are coming up next, different cases that she's, researching.

[00:13:28] And so you'll often see her listeners kind of go back and forth on social and that ultimately informs her show. And so this, ecosystem connection is what these influencers are after. And I think the power of the podcast format is they can just tell deeper stories and therefore tell deeper, you know, why to buys for the products that are integrated.

[00:13:49] So some are probably more comfortable than others, but the audio influencer, and the other thing to add is just like they're connected to their audience in a way off social media and into the [00:14:00] podcast where they can just use more words. They can just describe something beyond the snippet based format that is social for all of us..

[00:14:12] Damian: And why is that effective for advertisers? Why is that helpful?

[00:14:14] Lizzie: I just think they can riff. It's just it's out again outside of the 15 or 30 second window. They can riff about why they like the product. They can go deeper into the benefits of it or what is cool about it to them. so personal endorsement. I mean, that's what they're able to do in that space.

[00:14:29] And it's a super powerful way for advertisers to drive, their KPIs. 

[00:14:34] Damian: So, when it comes to that omni channel experience, podcasts are, and you mentioned that you're part of this open network. It's good for advertisers to be able to reach their audience on the podcast, but beyond that, it can obviously, drive an omni channel campaign.

[00:14:51] Lizzie: Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up. We were so curious about what is the true income mentality of a podcast listener. And [00:15:00] so for the last year, we've been analyzing campaigns. We actually analyzed over 2000 campaigns to determine when we add podcasting to a streaming plan, how much more incremental reach.

[00:15:11] And it depends on the campaign. But the mean was 32%. Incremental audience was captured in the podcasting line, essentially being added to the order. And so without that, those customers would have never been messaged. And I think that's just a really good example of the power of what Sirius XM media brings to bear.

[00:15:29] Even in the audio space, we have such a multi channel opportunity for our marketers.

[00:15:34] Ilyse: So, I saw an interview with you last year talking about how advertisers can use AI to save costs. And that's seems like a very common refrain in the industry right now because things have moved very fast on the front. How are you thinking about a I in 2024 this year? Yeah, you

[00:15:54] Lizzie: you know, there's a lot.

[00:15:56] Lizzie: around AI, a lot of buzz and how does it ultimately [00:16:00] land for each of us to make our lives easier or to augment what we're already doing. And one of the things that we see with smaller brands and smaller buys is that sometimes they feel like there's a barrier of entry if they don't have audio creative.

[00:16:17] And so we've done a lot of testing to leverage AI to be able to like. self service, the creative process. And so, that's where we're leveraging AI, which is just to take a company that, might be in media agency. That's of one person, right? That kind of like kitchen counter, digital marketer that might have a couple clients.

[00:16:35] Maybe they have a couple car dealers or maybe they have a couple of doctor's offices. And so we have a really great product that they can use in our audio go, which is our self serve buying tool to just come in and quickly make an audio ad. and they're off to the races. And so that's where we've tried to bring it forth is just where can we make someone that might be stuck because they don't have the resources, how can we help them scale?

[00:16:58] And so AI [00:17:00] helps us do that. I think there's also a future of where we'll see AI show up and how we're just crunching numbers for our clients and how we're processing data. It's just about speed and scale. It's not going to replace our creators. We're, there's no AI Conan coming anytime soon.

[00:17:16] Ilyse: a particular sector of brand that have been, more friendly towards audio ads or have approached audio? More enthusiastically than others? Mm

[00:17:29] Lizzie: years into this selling audio business. And I would say years ago, yes, it would be, entertainment really understood the power of it. And maybe someone like CPG was like, ah, if I don't show the girl shampooing her hair, how's anyone going to understand how this product works?

[00:17:44] But we're so past that. There's no one vertical. I think just the one. Overwhelmingly, it's just an underspent problem and that audio and the consumer behavior and audio is outpaced the marketer's investment. So that's just most of what we spend time helping them to [00:18:00] understand.

[00:18:02] Damian: Do you still think, given the big opportunity that audio represents, there's a lot more education to be done for marketers? And what does that look like? Yeah.

[00:18:28] Lizzie: is last click attribution. Not to say that everyone's doing that now.

[00:18:31] Many of our customers are going to more of a mixed media model. And so it's just helping them to figure out where do you put audio in your measurement plan? How do we work together to make sure you're understanding where you're delivering impressions against what customers and how ultimately that's driving your KPIs.

[00:18:48] But it requires a conversation and education because they're not inherently, if they're not buying it, they don't know how to measure it and they could be undervaluing it or giving value to a different partner because they weren't capturing the right [00:19:00] data signal.

[00:19:01] Ilyse: How do you guys measure it?

[00:19:03] Lizzie: So it depends on what they're looking for. Of course, there's many amazing third parties out there that were integrated with to measure everything from store traffic to attitudinal intent. but again, back to the fact that we own all of our own ad tech, we sit on The right data in a very privacy safe place to be able to work with clean rooms or work with advertisers directly or partners to share impression level data or whatever is the right signal in order for them to recognize if that customer converted so it's not rocket science.

[00:19:32] All of us that are in this space understand how it works, but because we sit on all of our own ad tech and we're open to working with anyone, we personalize it for whatever the customer wants. 

[00:19:42] Damian: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:19:44] We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:19:47] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:19:55] I'm Damian.

[00:19:55] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:19:56] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The reservation platform Resy centers itself around the communal experience that comes from dining, affirming and building connection between restaurants and diners, according to CMO Hannah Kelly.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Damian: I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:01] Ilyse: And I'm Ilyse Liffreing

[00:00:02] Damian: welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:00:05] Ilyse: This week, we're delighted to talk with Hannah Kelly, the CMO of Resy.

[00:00:09] Damian: Want to make a restaurant reservation? American Express owned Resy is there for you. With over 40 million global users, the app has driven over 600 million reservations. Now that's a lot of fine dining, I imagine.

[00:00:23] Ilyse: With almost 14 years of working at American Express under her belt, Hannah leads marketing efforts to connect restaurants and tastemakers.

[00:00:31] Damian: We start off by talking about the value of customer data and how insights inform Resy's marketing strategy. 

[00:00:38] Damian: We work in an industry where, data is capital. You know, how does Resy rely on the customer data, especially from its parent company, American Express?

[00:00:47] Hannah: Sure. So thank you so much for having me. And you could argue that the premise of the Resyacquisition was based on American Express's deep use of data. So when we look at spend at American Express, dining one [00:01:00] of our highest spend categories. We reached 100 billion in spend for the full year in 2023 for the first time ever.

[00:01:06] So for us, being an American Express and in the business of membership, we are constantly looking for ways to engage and attract card members and deepen our relationships with merchants. Resy naturally presented that opportunity as a way for us to own an asset, own a brand, and build a community of being able to connect the world's best restaurants to the world's best diners on a proprietary basis.

[00:01:28] Damian: That makes a lot of sense. I, as an Amex owner, do spend a lot in restaurants. I wonder if you have any interesting stories around turning those insights into action.

[00:01:38] Hannah: Sure. So, We know that millennials and Gen Z's are worried about making the perfect reservation. In fact, we commissioned our own research and we found that 50 percent of the millennial and Gen Z population are worried about making the perfect reservation.

[00:01:52] And so with that, that drove three sort of primary objectives and campaigns for us. So first is our brand platform. we launched a brand platform in [00:02:00] 2023 called Reservationships, which is really meant to highlight how that Resy is more than reservations, really being that trusted partner in crime when you don't know where to go.

[00:02:09] You want to have that fine dining moment with your potential in laws to be with a new date. How can we really own the fact that Resy has served as that sort of curator, and role. I think the second piece has been, this past year we introduced our Resy shareable hit list. so what that function allows you to do in the iOS app is anyone can go in and create a list based on any title that you want.

[00:02:31] Go to date nights. Kid friendly places. You name it. We have some very creative takes in there. and you can share them out with friends. So again, it's really meant to give users the confidence that they are selecting and making the best reservation possible for them.

[00:02:48] Hannah: And we've extended that and really leaned into that a bit more with our third deliverable this year, which has been around the launch of our discover tab.

[00:02:54] So now when you go into the Resy app, you not just only see a list of restaurants based [00:03:00] on your location or cities. We've always had collections, but now our discover tab actually brings in all of our editorial content into the app. And just for reference in Q one of 2024, we highlighted over 000 plus restaurants in all of our editorial across 300 stories.

[00:03:17] So now all of that content is there in formats that can helpfully guide users on how they can connect with restaurants that they should love if they don't know them already and ones that they want to continue to celebrate their love for and be a patron of.

[00:03:28] Ilyse: You know, retail data continues to have a moment among marketers. In your experience, how much do these insights influence your strategy? And what do you think is the future of this type of data?

[00:03:42] Hannah: So I think for us, guest research is the number one place that we constantly look to. And for us, a lot of that is where are people notifying, where are people searching, where are people dining. And at American Express, we're able to see where our card members are spending. And with Resy, we're able to see where they're searching.

[00:03:57] And we use that to inform our research. Anything from [00:04:00] the restaurants that we go after on our platform. So being really thoughtful around what are the types of cuisines that might be missing? What are the types of underrepresented cuisines or restaurants that we need to bring onto our platform? So what's not being searched for?

[00:04:11] and then obviously our product offering. So as mentioned, really trying to tap into ways that we can not only help diners based on research that we've collected, but also By introducing the discover tab by introducing things like shareable hit list. Those give us new avenues to really discover. What are the trends and what are the capabilities and offerings that Resy can provide?

[00:04:31] And even more importantly, what can we pass to our restaurants that they could learn about guests that they might not be able to get on their own? So we think about it not only as What type of research can we use to improve the experience around discoverability and in restaurant dining, but also think about how we can use that a differentiator for our partners and for our restaurants on our platform as well.

[00:04:51] Ilyse: That's, that's made me curious. What is the, most popular cuisine that Resy users are, [00:05:00] are making reservations for?

[00:05:01] Hannah: I don't know the exact cuisine type, but I can tell you we typically look at the types of cities that we see a lot of dining demand around, and we use that to really guide where we have a lot of our restaurant partners. We also really care about shining a light on underrepresented food types as well.

[00:05:16] So, We did a ton of work during, COVID 19 around highlighting the importance of Chinatown and the love stories of Chinatown, knowing that there is xenophobia happening as a result of the pandemic. also in the spring of 2020, when we think back to the wake of George Floyd, looking at how we can really highlight black owners and operators and chefs in our community.

[00:05:35] And that's something that we had always done. So, we again look at what's been searched, what hasn't been searched and really how we want to perpetuate the diversity, and future of the industry in the best way possible.

[00:05:47] Damian: You mentioned the site is more than a reservations app, and you're basically building kind of editorial and curated content. that's fascinating. could you say a little bit more about that and how you target taste makers and [00:06:00] people in the know and those underrepresented kind of food types that you mentioned?

[00:06:04] Hannah: So believe it or not, we get asked all the time if restaurants have to apply to be on Resy and what the selection process is. There is no selection process. Any restaurant can pay to be on Resy. But I think the reason why we get that is because of how we are able to surface and highlight the restaurants on our platform in a way that goes beyond just the menu and when their hours of operation are.

[00:06:27] So for us, that's really thinking about the editorial stories, as mentioned, where we have, A whole entire editorial team that's dedicated to coming up with ongoing franchises, like the one who keeps the books, which is our most popular, where we see, our guests going in and figuring out of the top restaurants from the actual owners and operators, when they release inventory, how they release inventory, and how best to get seated, also longer form content as well.

[00:06:52] Beyond our edit. We're really an experiential brand as well. We'll do around 200 events by the end of [00:07:00] 2024 with restaurant partners. Why? Because we know that our guests want to be able to experience restaurants and get that behind the scenes, behind the curtain look and feel. And our restaurant partners view us as a co conspirator and collaborator.

[00:07:13] We meet with our top restaurant partners. Frequently and instead of saying, Hey, how is your performance with Rosie? How are you enjoying? We talk about what are your 5 10 year growth plans? What are you thinking about in the immediate future that's keeping you up? What story do you want to be able to tell?

[00:07:27] What opening do you have? What new product? What front of house team member do you want to celebrate and really use that to help guide and inspire how we create a lot of our content, not just for edit, but in real life experiences. Yes.

[00:07:48] Damian: I suppose that feeds into that in many ways. But, how do you strike a balance between telling those stories and your own story? It's

[00:07:57] Hannah: not about us. people care about Resy because of the [00:08:00] restaurants on our platform. And I think Resy, when it was founded in 2014, really came out with a differentiated view, which is we want to be for restaurants by people from the restaurant community. And it's not about the dollar that Resy wants to spend.

[00:08:13] It's to take or make from the restaurant partners. So we've really maintained that not only in our business offering but in our brand story. And when I look at the reservations platform that we developed last year, it's not about Resy and about how great Resy is. It's about the relationships. that we broker, broker between restaurants and the broader industry and the community.

[00:08:33] So all of the B to B and industry support that we do, on the guest side, obviously building relationships and starting new ones between guests and hopefully restaurants that they want to become a regular with and between our diners as well, celebrating why people love going out. And when we look at our editorial, we're trying to curate around insights.

[00:08:52] [00:09:00] Um, it's really about creating a platform and owning the fact that we are a network and that our restaurants are greater than us. And in doing that and having the right level of gravitas towards our partners. In turn, I think that's what has allowed Resy y to become a little bit more of a darling than maybe some of our competitors.

[00:09:20] Damian: So interesting. And in terms of, like, the results that you're seeing from this kind of, integration of these different stories and balancing between restaurants and guests, are there any new innovations that you're looking at this year to kind of keep that in motion? Yeah,

[00:09:35] Hannah: I think this year. So the discover tab and our shareable lists were really big launches for us this year. So it's really starting to think about what that ecosystem looks like and owning that as a platform for our guests in our restaurants to tell their story.

[00:09:51] I think also leaning into our relationships with our partners. So this summer, what's really exciting in a prime example of this is the [00:10:00] Unapologetic experience that we push live with our partners at Unapologetic Foods. So, for context, Unapologetic Foods is a hospitality group, Indian hospitality group, based in New York.

[00:10:11] Very, very highly sought after restaurants, such as SEMA. and in fact, the New York Times did an entire story on how you could get into SEMA. Um, it Yeah,

[00:10:21] Ilyse: jealous of them all.

[00:10:23] Hannah: Which, by the way, the Resy Notify does work for SEMA. I can't tell you how many friends have texted me to say, I got off the list at SEMA, the feature works.

[00:10:31] I'm like, thank you so much for validating. Also, going early works as well, which you'll find in the one who keeps the books. But, a prime example of this year and how we've really kind of put all these insights to practice has been when we met with Ronnie, the owner of Unapologetic Foods. I think it's really important to note that, when I was in the United States last year, he had really expressed a deep desire to try and get the word out and spread the word and love of Indian food outside of the major cities in the United States.

[00:10:58] so basically trying [00:11:00] to make Indian food as mainstream as American or as Italian and how it's pretty underrepresented. He was a crazy thought, but I just wanted to share that with you. That's what I'm really thinking about. He said, Absolutely not crazy. Let's actually sit and think about how we could create a tour, what that experience would look like, really taking a nod and inspiration from him.

[00:11:20] His dream was to go on tour. We pulled on that thread, and this past summer we have gone live in three different cities, L. A., Chicago, and D. C., at different Southeastern Asian cuisine.

[00:11:31] Ilyse: glad to

[00:11:31] Hannah: Those chefs collaborated with Ronnie and his team on a custom menu. There's content around it. And again, our job there is greater than Resy.

[00:11:39] It's greater than a reservation. It's really about. So we're here at the Anna Jack Thai restaurant, unlocking something that was important to our partners. We had an hour long wait at the Anna Jack Thai experience the first night, even some influencers who were not asked to go standing in line for over an hour, which, again, is a testament to, I think, tapping into a real trend, but that really coming from an authentic place [00:12:00] from the restaurants on our platform and treating them as collaborators.

[00:12:03] Damian: I just want to say I'm glad to hear that about Indian food because, you know, I'm originally from Britain and, Indian food is our number one cuisine. So it was always amazing to me that it was never that big in the U. S. I certainly, I think maybe New York it has been because there's a special area to the city, but in general, it's good to hear

[00:12:19] Hannah: It's not the same as Britain. it's really not. And I think with Ronnie, his staff and the front of house team, they take the time to really educate you. So if you go to SEMA, They'll give you the menu, they'll assess, what you're there for, why, but they have no problem demystifying and taking the lead on walking you through why each dish is special, why their biryani has a very special rice, which is different because of the region of India that the chef is from versus what you might see somewhere else and calling attention to things that diners might not pick up on other than like, Oh, I know I need to go here because it's a hot reservation.

[00:12:54] They really take the time to use that as an opportunity to tell a bigger story and hopefully make a bigger impact. [00:13:00] Now you've spent

[00:13:02] Ilyse: years working at American Express. That's like a tenure that's almost unheard of in today's working landscape, let alone marketing. And you've worn many hats at American Express. So we're going to talk a little bit about your experience along the way. How has this experience shaped your philosophy now as CMO?

[00:13:17] Hannah: already shaped your philosophy now. At American Express, I had come from fashion PR, which was very much here's this asset. Here's this piece. Go pitch it, send out a sample, get it back, and it felt very transactional. I started on the open brand strategy team, which was our small business branded American Express at the time, and the number one thing the team was focused on was this new report that had come out around what is on the mind of a small business owner, and the number one [00:14:00] insight was help me get more customers.

[00:14:02] And in that moment, I remember sitting in this conference room thinking, Oh, God, how is American Express going to tackle this? What do we do? And really, it was diving in and understanding they just need a day. They need a moment that's going to get people to go out and shop. So with the partnership of many agencies and teams internally, we came up the most simple idea possible, which was small business Saturday.

[00:14:25] And here we are entering its 15th year. It launched with a Facebook page and really just anything possible to help get more business to small businesses was the premise. Since that time on, and now almost 14 years later, I've always tried to think about what is that deeper, higher order insight that we have the opportunity to serve and have translated that through all the many years and months of experience in American Express and now Resy and Resy, we acquired and closed Resy in July of 2019.

[00:14:56] We're in the process of integrating the companies, making [00:15:00] sure that we're keeping Resy and figuring out how we bring the best to bear of American Express. And then a pandemic happens, which brought our industry to its knees. So again, pulling on that same tool, what's the number one thing we needed to do?

[00:15:11] How do we keep our restaurants afloat? So at the other end of this pandemic, there are restaurants that we can serve on our platform. And with that, We met the chief medical officer of American Express, figured out that we have a chief medical officer in American Express, and looked at ways that we could create COVID safe dining behaviors.

[00:15:28] And that led to sponsorship of outdoor experiences across 45 restaurants within the state. So again, just, I think, really listening and being obsessed with the customer. It has paid dividends. And

[00:15:45] Damian: up, that's a tremendous legacy. 15 years of small business Saturday, yes, must be satisfying. And then as you think about Resy now and building out that future, do you have, um, do you have Goals that you want to achieve this year five years down the line [00:16:00] And maybe I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

[00:16:03] I'm sure you do

[00:16:03] Hannah: Yeah. So this year is actually our 10 year anniversary at Resy. and it's amazing to see you to the point of all the growth that you cited at the beginning of the taping. Like what? What we've had in that short period of time, and I think for us, it's really been because we've been that co conspirator and partner to the industry.

[00:16:22] So for us, The next sort of chapter of Resy is really going to be harnessing that even more, which is when you are a restaurant and you're trying to think of how you can grow your business, how you're trying to get your story out there. Who are you turning to? I want you to be thinking about Resy.

[00:16:37] And I don't want you to be thinking about Resy just from the sake of a table management platform or a demand network. I want you to be thinking about us as a critical partner in helping you scale, grow your demand, tell that story of a cuisine type, build an experience that only we could be able to partner with.

[00:16:55] And then from a guest side, when you have a dining occasion, I want [00:17:00] you to come to Resy, yes, of course, to think about that. But. But I also want to be the destination to help curate and really be the trendsetter that anytime you're trying to figure out what is happening in my city, a city that I'm traveling to in the broader food industry at large, what does that mean?

[00:17:16] And I think a great example of how that is sort of coming to life now is, as part of American Express's relationship with Disney, they actually approached us to think about how we could do a deeper integration for the season three premiere of the bear. Why the bear? All about food. You have people at home now saying corner when they're cooking in their kitchen, and I didn't know what that meant prior to watching that show.

[00:17:40] They came to American Express because of our ownership of Resy and what we mean to that industry. So we actually hosted a private screening for American Express card members for the first, and we're also doing episodes one and two of season three at Kusama, one of our L. A restaurants. and that's really because these brands are [00:18:00] looking to figure out how do we authentically play in food and they're thinking Resy.

[00:18:03] So how do we continue to evolve on that? What does that mean? How are we meeting our customers? The industry where it needs to be and really being seen as that sort of foothold. Wow.

[00:18:15] Damian: that's amazing. That's the bear the hulu connection. That's fantastic

[00:18:20] Ilyse: 

[00:18:20] Damian: I read Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential many years ago, but it seems like, people's interest in food and cuisine is hotter than ever. If I may say, what's your take on 

[00:18:33] Hannah: Couldn't agree more. and I think that if anything positive coming out of COVID 19 was that it taught us all and showed us all the importance of restaurants and what they mean to us.

[00:18:43] So I think coming out of COVID, the number one thing that we heard and we've seen, and even as, as personally, I felt is, Wanting to go out and congregate and to be with people that I love friends, coworkers, family and restaurants are the gathering place for that. [00:19:00] And when that was taken away, I think that was really indicative of what this culture is missing and the role that restaurants can play in that.

[00:19:07] And what you've seen is, I think, a genuine interest from the average consumer or diner who is just wanting to understand, What the importance of those restaurants are is like how they operate how we can keep them in business Get that peek behind the curtain. You're seeing shows like the bear emerge and 

[00:19:27] I think, really indicates that reservations are a form of cultural currency, which is something that we talk about, inside Terezi. So our job is to really harness that, that sort of cultural zeitgeist moment and really use that as a way to help prop up more restaurants, keep them in business, and drive more demand.

[00:19:45] Hannah: And that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast.

[00:19:47] Damian: We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:19:50] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Kat Vesce and Sydney Cairns.

[00:19:56] Damian: And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:19:58] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:19:59] Damian: [00:20:00] And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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Colgate-Palmolive’s Brigitte King breaks down steering a global giant through digital transformation. She explores the value of connected TV and its data-driven addressability, why she thinks the marketing funnel looks more like a seesaw and how she’s thinking about riding the retail media wave.

Episode Transcript

Please note, this transcript  may contain minor inconsistencies compared to the episode audio.

[00:00:00] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse Liffreing.

[00:00:01] And I'm Damian Fowler.

[00:00:06] Damian: And welcome to this edition of The Current Podcast. This week we're delighted to talk with Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer at Colgate

[00:00:11] Ilyse: Brigitte King, the Global Chief Digital Officer of Colgate.

[00:00:22] Damian: Of course, these days Colgate Palmolive is a thriving global company with an extensive portfolio of products and billions of customers worldwide. We

[00:00:30] Ilyse: of customers worldwide.

[00:00:33] Brigitte: global remit in a world awash with data. So Brigitte,

[00:00:36] Damian: So Brigitte, let's start. Um, what are the main challenges and opportunities for CPG brands, right now in a world where the shelf is digital and it's extremely competitive?

[00:00:46] Brigitte: first, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. And I did love that, 1800s, date you threw in there.

[00:00:52] Um, just for context, you know, we are, a company with a lot of legacy brands and a lot of longevity, and that's actually something great for [00:01:00] the company. but we've got dynamic change ahead of us. And what's fantastic is the company recognizes that. So they've embarked on a digital transformation, a data and analytics transformation, the kinds of things that we need to do to really modernize our brands in a digital first world.

[00:01:17] So we do have challenges, like you said. I think that CPG brands have been, somewhat late to the party in terms of really, Getting to the digital and data transformations that we need to do. But by no means are they shy about it. I think everybody has embarked on that change management journey. And the great thing about Colgate is we started it, you know, many years ago and certainly with a lot of speed the last four years.

[00:01:42] And the challenges are around modernizing how we reach consumers. the challenges are around making sure we care about the digital shelf as much as the physical shelf. And we sell toothpaste in cartons and tubes and it's on the shelf. But it's been pretty incredible, certainly post, the pandemic, [00:02:00] how quickly we had to master selling online.

[00:02:03] And it is a very different skill. It's a very different capability. It requires content. It requires, mastery of the algorithm. It requires working with your retailers in many new and different ways. But I'm really proud to say that, with 15 percent econ penetration of our total sales, we're getting the job done.

[00:02:20] Damian: So could you say a little bit more about the opportunity of digital transformation? What does it mean?

[00:02:25] Brigitte: Sure. For us, what it means is, is strategically making sure that we can start outperforming in digital commerce. And that means whether it's last mile delivery, or whether it's with our e retailers, or whether it's with our D to C businesses, which we have skin care brands and our skin health division, PCA Skin, L to MD, Philorga, those are all online direct to consumer businesses.

[00:02:51] So digital commerce runs the gamut, is my point. And strategically, it means we want to learn to do better. And I'll perform category and [00:03:00] market growth in that arena. The second big pillar of digital transformation is really making a step change in the way we plan, deploy, and use our digital media. So we are a business, as you said, grounded in many years of legacy, that has often been TV first and TV heavy, and that's no longer the case.

[00:03:21] Colgate Palmolive globally is weighted over 65 percent in digital media at this point in time. So we have had to do a lot to upskill. Our teams and really make sure that our digital media is working every single dollar as best as we can. I'm very proud for the teams on the ground to say that the R. Y. S.

[00:03:41] Have been very positive. And so that means we're really mastering how we do business in digital today. We want

[00:03:46] Damian: We want to ask you a little bit about that upskilling later on in the podcast. But I wanted to have a quick question, you know, I'm talking about legacy brands. And I know that, just for instance, one of the toothpaste brands, Colgate's toothpaste

[00:03:58] Brigitte: Yes.

[00:03:59] Damian: it's about the most [00:04:00] famous toothpaste brand.

[00:04:02] You get, how does better marketing or digital marketing even drive brand loyalty for say, those toothpaste customers? Aren't they already loyal?

[00:04:11] Brigitte: Not all of them, right? So we have, of course, loyal Colgate users. We also have people who switch. and we have people to grow your brand that have to actually come in to the brand and to the category.

[00:04:22] So if you think about, let's get pragmatic. You think about One of the, um, what we call need states of toothpaste is what do a lot of people want? Whiter teeth, right? So, they're looking for whitening products, whiter toothpaste that whiten. And what you see in search terms, is a lot around where the discovery journey begins.

[00:04:43] And so you also can understand how they're searching. Well then, the job of a marketer today is not to only understand those trends and those keywords, but to develop the content. that is relevant to those search, behaviors that are going on. And then guess what? You have to then deploy the content [00:05:00] on all the right channels and in the right touch points to be present when the consumer is searching for information and researching about whitening, but then more importantly, how do you get into their consideration set, right?

[00:05:12] Into the mental availability of, I'm interested, oh Colgate has something, let me go a little deeper here. And then the moment of truth online, right? Which is the moment of conversion. And I don't mind if they convert, and none of us do, right? On a physical shelf or a digital shelf. The point is to get their attention and to get into the consideration set.

[00:05:33] to prove that you have great ratings and reviews, great product benefits that they're seeing on the PDP product detail pages, and you will move them to the point of conversion, be it physical or virtual.

[00:05:44] Damian: I like that.

[00:05:46] Brigitte: Yeah. Now, as

[00:05:47] Ilyse: know, retail media is absolutely exploding and along with that retail data. How is retail data and the opportunity of RMNs helping you with more precise targeting of potential customers? So this

[00:05:59] Brigitte: [00:06:00] So this is, you know, the, what I call the topic du jour, right? Retail media, networks and what's happening with the explosion of retail media. I'm very, pleased to say we're actually ahead of this curve. we are investing in retail media.

[00:06:11] We are experimenting, with retail partners and it's an incredibly dynamic area. But you know, what's fascinating about it is it gives you closed loops. Sales, right? You can really go from attention to consideration to discovery, and you can basically close the loop and see, did what you do actually impact the bottom line or that final moment of truth?

[00:06:34] So that's exciting. But I do want to say that even with the explosion of retail media, we are brand building for the long term, which means we have to think about how retail media works and plays in the larger holistic media planning process. So you really need to think about how you're growing your brand long term and not just on one person's retail media network.

[00:06:56] Damian: That's interesting.

[00:06:57] Ilyse: To what extent would you say it's like a [00:07:00] game changer for CPTs? I think it

[00:07:02] Brigitte: I think it is. I think that it's got all this buzz for a reason, right? And I think it's because we can start to see closed loop sales attribution in ways that are much more difficult to track elsewhere. and you can really partner with retailers who are getting more and more sophisticated about their data sets and how they partner with brands and manufacturers to build businesses.

[00:07:25] So in many ways, it can absolutely be a win win situation. but you also have to think about your brand long term and make sure you're not only looking to invest in one place or with one retailer. So we're learning a lot. We've got great partnerships with our retailers. They're leaning in. We're leaning in.

[00:07:42] So it's an exciting time.

[00:07:44] Ilyse: Is it helping to drive more, say, direct to consumer campaigns? And does Colgate Palmolive have any of those coming up or any successful ones under their belts as it is?

[00:07:56] Brigitte: I think we've definitely, we're still in that experimenting stage. We're definitely [00:08:00] learning. but yeah, we have a strategic eye towards how we're going to do this and how we're going to make sure that we get to really drive traffic to our brands. and make sure that also our data gets smarter and more enriched as we go.

[00:08:12] The whole point is to basically. Do for the consumer, meet their needs and meet them where they are and do what they need. And as you partner with your retailers, if you're both with that mindset, you generally make smarter decisions with your data. You mentioned,

[00:08:25] Damian: you mentioned, you know, meeting the consumer where they are and also about the different nuances of brand building across all the different touch points. 

[00:08:34] I know that e commerce is growing. There's a lot of talk about the importance of, commerce advertising, e commerce strategy, and how that engages the consumer. But that also impacts how creative rolls out in the end stage. is that something that's part of your consideration under your remit as a, as somebody who's transforming digital marketing for Colgate.

[00:09:14] Brigitte: And the most fascinating thing about content today is it's truly being what I call atomized. You just need more of it faster all the time. You need to create it with velocity. and I always talk about the three V's volume, velocity and variety of content. You need that. So our team equally is trying to make sure we have the technology underpinnings and the infrastructure, to get content deployed at scale.

[00:09:39] So that means using dams, digital asset management systems really well across our global organization. And that means, 200 countries and territories. It's no small project. And then really working on making sure it's content that is good. So first it's having it and deploying it correctly.

[00:09:59] Then it's [00:10:00] making sure it's good content and good creative. So partners of ours that are really helping us score creative with AI and ML. So we really do know that it's tagged correctly, but that it's actually scored to win, and it's AB tested.

[00:10:14] So all of those things are creating a sophistication now in our creative and content wheelhouse that allow us to get where we want to go. What you said, which sounds so easy. Content in the right place at the right time. Yeah,

[00:10:25] Damian: how are you adapting your approaches across all these channels that you're talking about across, including the physical store?

[00:10:33] Brigitte: So I think it's less about adapting. I think what we're doing is we're retrenching. We are making sure that we understand what is driving these categories. for consumers to begin with. So that means really good consumer decision journeys, studying those, making sure we have a very thorough grasp of the insights and the people centricity around those insights about why people are coming in, why people [00:11:00] are leaving, what they're looking for when they're there.

[00:11:02] So if you think about it, you're retrenching into what I call good old fashioned consumer insights. And you're, but you're doing it in a new, way. You're doing quant data, qual data, you're doing digital data, you're doing social sentiment, you're getting an understanding of what's really happening.

[00:11:17] And then you're looking to understand what your brand objectives are, or you're responsible for basically strategizing around those to meet the needs of the business. And then you plan your multi touchpoint channel strategy. So there's a lot of work. Diagnostic work that goes on before you ever get into which channel do you want to be on?

[00:11:39] what are you trying to get done? it has to be thoughtful because as you know, there's never enough money to go around. and we need to make sure that every dollar we spend to build our brands now to meet both short term goals and long term goals is put in the right place with thoroughness and analytical skills and capabilities and insights.

[00:12:00] Ilyse: Now, of ecommerce and retail data, we hear a lot of talk about the collapse of the marketing funnel, that merging, you know, of brand awareness and performance.

[00:12:13] Do you have any good metaphors or perhaps models for the way marketing works or should work today? What was the good one that we've heard before, Damian?

[00:12:23] Damian: infinity

[00:12:24] Brigitte: Yes, the loop. I was going to talk about the loop and not the

[00:12:28] Damian: Oh, I don't want to, you know, pre think. You say what comes to mind, what works for

[00:12:33] Ilyse: I mean, we've heard, yeah, infinity loop or like black hole even.

[00:12:39] Brigitte: So look, I, was trained as a classic brand marketer, and I've worked on digital, for most of the second half of my career, shall I say? So I'm very conscious of, there is a lot to say about the funnel and that it is true, right? The funnel exists for a reason. and it was.

[00:12:57] Classified that way because [00:13:00] you have to start from a place of awareness to get to consideration of your brand, to get to purchase, and then to ideally get to loyalty, right? We call that ACPL at Colgate. But I think what's really unique now is you can't just care about awareness. You have to care about getting attention.

[00:13:16] And you can't just care about being considered. You have to be in the consideration set. with a lot of different things that affect it now than before. Before it was manufacture a message out. Now, people are reading ratings and reviews. So, as I said earlier on whitening, if they don't read positive ratings and reviews on whitening, I'm going to fall out of the consideration set.

[00:13:39] And purchase, used to be fundamentally, the zero moment of truth was at the physical shelf in the store. That's no longer just the case. So the moment of truth can happen anywhere, and on any platform. And, right, it's not just e comm. It's also checking out on, TikTok, and being able to [00:14:00] purchase on social channels.

[00:14:02] And that has also changed the mix because a brand now has to exponentially be better and present in all of those places. 

[00:14:09] but you raised a really good question around how do you think about brand and performance. And I think that they're very different and we, I've seen a lot of studies and I've read a lot about People talking about let's go back to just the basics of brand marketing.

[00:14:24] and then there's a lot of people who are just diehards on performance marketing is where it's at, right? It's data driven, it's got KPIs, you can see things working in real time. I think you need a blend of both. I think that what you really have to be doing today, whether you're driving a digital transformation, marketing or a business transformation in general, you need to be balancing all the time.

[00:14:46] And for me, it is striking the balance, I think about a seesaw. Really between brand on one side, performance, brand marketing on one side, performance marketing on the other, and instead of one tipping too far, [00:15:00] balancing the two. I think that's how you get to both short and long term brand building.

[00:15:04] Damian: perfect. I love that. That's a new one.

[00:15:06] Ilyse: Yeah, that's a good one. That's

[00:15:06] Brigitte: right, it's not a loop, it's a seesaw.

[00:15:10] Ilyse: now, speaking of like the marketing mix, to what extent are digital channels like connected TV and, of course, ad tiers on streaming platforms important to that marketing mix? I know even with like retail now and retail media, it's, as far as, identity and everything, retail and CTV are kind of merging together as well.

[00:15:36] as channels that are almost uniquely suited for each other, in a sense, but curious what you have to say about that. Look,

[00:15:44] Brigitte: I think media has changed so much and everyone is trying to keep up and make sure that we understand what I call where the eyeballs are going. And I think that CTV specifically is, as you know, um, Growing exponentially. A lot of investment going in that [00:16:00] area. And we are as well experimenting there, and we have a lot of brands who have invested in connected TV because it's more data driven.

[00:16:09] It's addressable, it's targeted, and we can see how it performs. And generally, again, we measure our ROIs against all of our touch points and we have found it is very performant. So we will continue to invest there. It's bringing new people into our brands, Hills specifically, pet food for Colgate. We do a lot of CTV and it's, performing really well for them.

[00:16:33] So we're really learning how to do what I would call data driven decision making, data driven targeting. and get the measurement that proves that cycles really working for us, and it's been terrific. I mean, Colgate as one of the classic CPGs. That's hundreds of years old. actually recently posted, 9.

[00:16:52] 8 percent organic sales growth. So we really are driving the base business with a lot of these new strategies.

[00:16:58] Damian: And from your point of view, [00:17:00] I'm assuming that measurement portion is better. Is just the accuracy of the measurement is getting better. The data signals are getting better. Yes, absolutely. But it's also giving

[00:17:11] Brigitte: everyone a whole lot more data to have to handle, hygienate, stitch together and master. And that's the complexity in a lot of this as well. And these transformations always have what I call a lot of data exhaust, a lot of data spinoff, and you have to be equipped in your organization to start mastering and managing that kind of data.

[00:17:33] Ilyse: What kind of data? Like, where does it go? it sounds like trash you just like have to take out. 

[00:17:42] Brigitte: So, we are, definitely looking to make sure that we put our data in a data cloud. we are looking at consumer data platforms, CDPs, because we do understand that's a place where we can stitch data together to give us a better view of the consumer.

[00:17:56] We're strategizing around, unknown and [00:18:00] known data sets. first party, second party, third party data. So all of those things are coming together, strategically for us to be able to drive data driven marketing.

[00:18:14] Damian: upskilling your employees. And this comes at a time when there's a ton of emphasis on AI, you know, as a friend or a foe. So, why is that important to you to place that emphasis on the people who work, in the company? Why is digital upskilling such an important, job, I guess, for you?

[00:18:33] Brigitte: So it's the beginning of the whole conversation. there is a need to make sure that all of our employees around the world have access to continuous improvement and upskilling and learning. And so as we drove a digital transformation, we needed to bring everybody along with the journey. But nobody can come along if they don't understand some of the basics and the principles, not just the why of what we're doing, but the what it means.

[00:18:58] So Colgate Palmolive [00:19:00] invested a lot of time and money into upscaling its own employees. And then we did, fun stuff. We badged people who took X amount of courses. we allowed them to post that on LinkedIn, because they should be proud of upscaling themselves. And it's really good for their careers and their own self development.

[00:19:17] But it's also a dynamic for creating change, right? Because as you learn more, you can actually make different decisions Transcribed Act differently. Ask the right questions. Push your teams to make sure we are competing and marketing in a digital age effectively for our brands. So upskilling was everything for us.

[00:19:35] and it's really also about Colgate's belief that we should invest back in our employees. this is about raising all boats. So as I also drove a digital transformation, I recruited a lot of talent into Colgate Palmolive, but equally important to all of us was upskilling the teams that we had.

[00:19:52] It's reassuring to hear at a time

[00:19:54] Damian: a time when, you know, there's all this chat about AI, but it's nice to hear.

[00:19:57] Damian: And [00:20:00] that's it for this edition of The Current Podcast. We'll be back next week, so stay tuned.

[00:20:04] Ilyse: The Current Podcast's theme is by Love Caliber. The current team includes Cat Fessy and Sydney Cairns.

[00:20:11] Damian:  And remember, I'm Damian.

[00:20:13] Ilyse: I'm Ilyse.

[00:20:14] Damian: And we'll see you next time. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe and leave us a review. Also, tune in to our other podcast, The Current Report.

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