The Business of Business Podcast

Profitability and Social Responsibility Doing Well By Doing Good Is Possible Featuring Lynn Yap

Some business leaders tell you they can't be both profitable and socially responsible. I think they are saying they can't maximize their bonus structures by making decisions that have positive social impacts. A growing number of business leaders are dispelling this myth by leading with profits and social responsibility.

About Lynn

Lynn Yap is the Founder of Actv8 Network, whose mission is to increase the participation of women in technology, and entrepreneurship. She started her career as a corporate attorney, graduated from the Wharton School with an MBA, and worked in investment banking.

Her curiosity led her to write about businesses as a force for good. The Altruistic Capitalist culminates conversations with leaders at for-profit corporations, entrepreneurs, and investors, and her personal experience.

The Altruistic Capitalist

Are you tired of hearing that companies can’t create a profit and make a positive impact simultaneously? The Altruistic Capitalist looks to spark change in conversations in board rooms, offices, and schools to turn the focus from sales, profits, and returns to the impact good business can have on people and the planet.

Through her interviews with prominent business leaders as well as her personal experiences in the business world, author Lynn Yap offers ways to rethink capitalism, create a positive impact, and do meaningful work. Y ap looks to tackle questions like:

• Where do people and planet enter into the equation when businesses calculate returns?
• How can we turn a profit while also creating a sustainable business with positive impacts?
• How can companies scale impact to provide benefits to the environment and community?

This book speaks to leaders, social entrepreneurs and intrapreneurs, and innovators who want to change the relationship between business, our people, and the planet. We can no longer rely on governments and non-profit organizations alone to solve our social and environmental problems.

As we look urgently to the business world for solutions, this kinder, more mindful brand of capitalism just may provide a pathway out.

www.altruisticcapitalist.com

www.actv8.network

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Full Transcript Below

Profitability and Social Responsibility: Doing Well By Doing Good Is Possible Featuring Lynn Yap

Tue, 7/20 2:16PM • 44:34

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

business, investors, people, companies, quarterly earnings, investing, consumers, book, impact, community, employees, purpose, positive impact, write, talk, thinking, question, started, terms, grit, Profitability and Social Responsibility

SPEAKERS

Lynn, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:04

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests that speak to a diverse set of topics. We like to hopefully we can bring some things to light that maybe you haven't thought about, or at least we can provide some help, help if there are things that are keeping you up at night. Today is no different. We're excited to have Lynn Yap with us. She's been waiting quite some time. So we do want to say thank you for your patience very much. But Lynn is the founder of ACTV8 Network and that is A  C T V 8. I will spell all that out for you in the show notes. But the mission is to increase the participation of women in technology and entrepreneurship. She started her career as a corporate attorney, graduated from the Wharton School with an MBA and worked in investment banking. Her curiosity, curiosity led her to write about business as a force for good The Altruistic Capitalist culminates conversations with leaders at for profit corporations, entrepreneurs and investors and in her personal experience. Lynn, thank you so much for being with us.

 

Lynn  01:15

Thank you so much for hosting me, right?

 

Roy Barker  01:17

Yeah, this is I, you know, I'm very excited to talk about this, this altruistic view. And it's becoming much more prevalent, you know, as we talk about the employee side, and the investment side, and the consumer side is kind of like a triangle. But before we get off too far, tell us a little bit more about your story. I mean, how did you end up here? How did you, you know, what made you decide to just focus on writing this book from this perspective?

 

Lynn  01:46

Good question, good way to start, I guess, from the very beginning. So I have a very traditional business background as as, as you as you said, I started out my career as a corporate attorney, I went to Wharton, and then I worked in investment banking, so very much a business focus. You know, I'm, I help companies, I help tech startups raise public financing in the market. So I took companies such as Facebook public, but one day I was, you know, I thought to myself, we, we say, people, our most important asset. But when I look at the rolls of financial statements, there is nowhere in there that we measure the impact of what we do as a business, on people and planet. And so that kind of got me thinking, and started me on this journey really, to look at business in a different way. I love investment banking, quite soon after that, and kind of explored, explored different different careers, I started volunteering as well, and trying to find a cause and purpose that resonated with me. Long story short, I, this I am where I am today, I started activate network after spending some time and years, you know, helping to mentor girls into in technology and innovation and entrepreneurship. I started activate network. And then with the book, I also wanted to share what I learned in all these years since I left investment banking. What is it that businesses can do to create a positive impact not just to consumers, and and for investors, because I think investors are still always important, but also for their partner suppliers, and the community that they operate in, and of course, the planet. So there are multiple stakeholders that a business has. And traditionally, if you look at business schools and business textbooks, it's all about the shareholder is all about the investor is all about the bottom line, and making that and growing your profits year after year. It's not I mean, your your investors go crazy. If you one year is it? Well, it's not looking so good this year. You know, it's always about growing it again and again. And so I this this whole my whole journey, in the last few years has really been thinking, Okay, this has been shifting, it's like, what, what else? What else? How else should business be? Is there another way for businesses to be? Yeah,

 

Roy Barker  04:24

Yeah, yeah. And I want to talk about the Activate network too, a little bit, but I kind of want to offer what you're saying is, you know, I worked for a large public company back in the day, and we were a monopoly. So it wasn't, it wasn't a lot of competition, but then we had deregulation. And all of a sudden, you know, we were a smaller company that was public. And so we started living on the quarterly earnings cycle. Yeah. And I was, you know, I was a young guy back then, and I didn't understand a lot But what I found is that we were making some terrible long term decisions. Based on this next quarterly report, all we were doing was living from one quarter to the next. And we were spending, you know, we were saving $1, this quarter, only to spend $10, next quarter. And I don't want to get off on a tangent, I want to try to stick to this topic. But I just read a list yesterday about 53. More like fast food and chain restaurants that are going out of business, that will probably be out of business, and one of them, not going to mention her name and run them in the ground. But it was just talking about, you know, trying to relate it to COVID and want to write the author and say, This isn't related to COVID at all, it's related to poor service to poor food to dirty restaurants, everything but COVID. And so, you know, I guess I, as the guy that's been on the ground, it's like, the shareholders really understand the dynamics and what's going on, you know, we're just worried about that next quarterly report, but we forget all this other stuff that should go along with this business.

 

Lynn  06:09

There's many parts of that, that I want to pull on. And so going back where it was back in 1970, when Milton Friedman wrote an article on the New York Times, and he said, the social responsibility of business is to increase profits. And it kind of went from there. This is what we're told in Business School. That's what we're told in our business textbooks. And everyone just focus on the bottom line. But then on top of that, is what you're saying there is the quarterly earnings, like you have meetings with your investors every quarter, and you have to show them what what you estimate are, where we're at how far you are from them, what are you going to do to meet the next quarter? And, and on top of that, there's also other structural things such as executive compensation, it's also tied to all this estimates, as well as financial returns. Thinking about your budget processes, everything is tied to just basically dollars and cents. I see that shifting a little bit. I've I've seen a couple of a couple of headlines that now they're also starting to tie executive compensation to ESG. So environmental, social and governance metrics. So how, what are some of the governance measures that you're setting up in your in your company? How What are you doing in terms of environmental impact? Now, we're not talking just keeping within, within the confines of the law, like not dumping your waste in the rivers, we're talking like I using actually renewable energy, so thinking of it more creatively and in a regenerative way, in the economy that is now linked to executive compensation. So that's one piece and to answer in terms of the quarterly earnings, Rose Macario. So I mentioned two companies. Well, I've mentioned a few companies. But in my book I mentioned Bruce MacArthur, who was leading Patagonia, as well as Paul Polman, who was leading Unilever. Both of them also oppose this this quarterly earnings thing. Because what it means is, it's leading to what you said earlier, being short term. And what and what I believe how we can do that is to start thinking, setting out the vision for the future. And this is it, this is how Paul Polman did it. It's like this is I want to double, I want to double my financial, I want to double the business. But I also want to have environmental returns. Now that means that I'm not going I might not be showing you the numbers that you're looking for in the next quarter. But in like the five years, in 10 years, this is what I'm going to do. And while there are some, I can't remember what the number is now, I think maybe the stock price fell by 10% or something the next day, but over the tenure of when he was CEO when Paul Polman was CEO of Unilever, I think the stock will increase by 180%. So if you had stuck around, if you're an investor that, you know, believe in what he was saying his vision, you would have got back your money. But there were also people was like, yeah, this is not for me. And it really depends on the type of investor that you are and what your investment horizon is, you would have left the next day. And we're seeing the investment community also waking up and changing their perspective, the amount of assets on the management that went into impact investing, so that's private money, as well as in public funds, as let's say ESG funds, as well, that doubled tripled in the last year, partly because of the things that we're seeing related to climate change to inequality that people were speaking. Yeah. And investors are not just investors, right. They're also people like, like us, with families who are consumers were members of community and they said, Well, okay, I also care about this. And it's important in the long run, it's better for business if we take care of the environment.

 

Roy Barker  10:06

Right? Right.

 

Lynn  10:07

Because if we don't take care of the environment, our materials and supply chain is going to be affected down the road. So

 

Roy Barker  10:14

yeah, you know, we can make that investment today and take care of the environment and do what we can, and we probably won't have to pay such inflated prices for those goods, you know, further down the line. And I think that gets back to this long term approach that, you know, there's all kinds of investors, some people want to get that, you know, they want the daily bump and get in and get out, which, you know, a lot of these announcements really affect, but then there's also their people that they buy the stock, they want to hold it, you know, I guess, you know, as long as the fundamentals of it are good. And so these are the, these are the dis good decisions that I think comes out of this long term play, is that, okay, let's, we will sacrifice some earnings today to impact future earnings. So we can have, you know, a good longevity. But anyway, and I think, too, they're also they're caught in this triangle that, you know, they're being squeezed by employees, because the, you know, people coming out of college today, basically, they're demanding that what are we doing? How are you addressing my causes? We've got the investor groups that are like, I'm not investing or pulling investing. And then we've also got the consumers because consumers are, you know, voting with their dollars more on the issues that really reach to them.

 

Lynn  11:37

Mm hmm, exactly. And so it's, and again, no one, none of us are sitting, sitting in one role, like, we're not just consumers, we're not just employees, we're not just leaders and managers of a business, we are sometimes all of that remembers of community. And so we are realizing the impact that businesses have on on all of on all on all areas of our lives, on the community on the environment. And we want to make sure that there is a planet further down the road for our grandchildren for our great grandchildren. And and that, that that I think has really affected how us as consumers, like you say, we started voting for without wallets. And the younger generation for sure, they're so much more aware. I think, for me, anyone can be a leader. I like to refer to the example of going to the thunberg, you know, 15 years old, she was sitting outside the Swedish parliament, saying Enough is enough. What are you going to do about climate change? And I think leadership for me is having an opinion or something, and really believing in it, having the courage to talk about it, and sharing it with others. And so she had all of those elements. And she was persistent. You know, she was she she had the grit to continue to to share what she believed, which then started the Fridays for the for the future movement. And that, I think, also raised the awareness for that generation to say, yes, sustainability is an important thing. We need to take care of our planet, because otherwise there's no, that won't be later on for us. Yeah. And you know that i think it's a good example, too, because a lot of times, we'll let's say, when we vote here in the US, we feel like, I'm not taking the time to go vote today.

 

Roy Barker  13:37

I'm just one person, how can I really make a difference? And I think that she showed, you know, when you take that stand, and something that you really believe in one person can have a pretty big impact on things. Mm hmm.

 

Lynn  13:49

Yeah. Collectively, it starts with one person standing up, and then another person stands up. And then pretty soon we have a movement. If we go back way back in, way back in the 60s, for instance, we're talking about racial inequality. It just started with one person saying, No, I'm going to stand up for what I believe is correct. And that's, we live in a very different world today. And that wasn't so long ago.

 

Roy Barker  14:13

Now. So what are some challenges that companies today face? I mean, we talked a little bit of probably about messaging and making investors understand what is our long term plan? How is it a benefit to the environment to the social impacts, things like that, and but are there other challenges besides that messaging?

 

Lynn  14:37

Yes, I think there there are many challenges. But perhaps the end it all stems from, you know, everything around it, the structure, the mindset, the processes, has been focused around. Business is in the responsibility, it has the responsibility to increase profits. Full stop. And that's that's kind of it right? We just stop there. Sure. Like, if you don't break the law, you increase profits, you're all good. And, and because of that, now, there needs to be a big mindset shift to say, No, we are now we want to focus on purpose, and we want to create a positive impact. I think once you have that mindset in within the company, within the business in the leadership and as well as on the ground, then culture starts to shift, your values might shift a little bit. And then your processes will your while you first your strategy, change your culture, then your strategy, then your processes and your systems change. Because you can't just go out and change, let's say, how you allocate budgets, how you want to out whether you're allocating to, whether you're allocating to training and development for, for your employees, or you're going to invest in renewable energy, I think it starts first from understanding yourself from being mindful and intentional, and knowing what your purpose is, what are the values that drive you. And once you have that, that, that moves into your the, that moves into your culture, when you're when it goes into your culture, the strategy develops like the Alright, this is, this is where I can play this is this is this is my feel feel of play. And this is where I want to affect change, and everything else, I believe flows after that, you might invest in different systems, you will change your processes, your budget systems might reflect more in terms of investment horizon, that you're thinking that. And then of course, the communication also changes you might meet with your investors even more frequently than than where you are right now. Because you're telling them look, you will be saying, This is how I am investing in the research and innovation to improve on the regeneration of energy for the business for the supply chain, you might not be talking about earnings estimates. But you might be saying, This is how this is what we're doing. Will you join us? How is it that you can help and play? I think that that starts with that mindset, because now you are wanting to bring people along, when you realize you're creating a positive, we want to create a positive impact, you can't help but want to share that message with everyone else and bring others along with your journey. So that's how I see that you

 

Roy Barker  17:27

might actually end up meeting your investors more frequently than on a quarterly basis, which is not a bad thing, because you can keep them up to I think information is always powerful. So as as an investor, the more feedback I get from you, the more comfortable I feel versus if you disappear. Or if I don't hear from you all quarter, maybe I start getting a little nervous. What's going on? I think that's always a good idea. The I guess the other question is, there's so many different aspects to environmental social, that. So who how do you how would you advise a company to make that decision? I mean, is it? Is it the CEOs passion? Does he? Does he want to do a survey of the employees and say, we're fixing to do you know, make some changes? What are some of your causes? Do you talk with investors? Or? I mean, I guess you probably in an ideal world, you would get some ideas from all of these groups?

 

Lynn  18:29

Yeah, I think that's a really good question as well. And I think what what you're what you said is, is one of the ways in which we could do that, the one of the, one of the people, one of the persons that I interviewed for my book is Bill Simpson, he, he was the CEO of Hershey entertainment. And so, you know, going back to what I said before, if you focus the team on the purpose of the business, then that is how you can engage with them and get them to bring their best selves to work. And what he did was he brought some of his top managers in a room and he asked them he went through the five why's exercise, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but basically it's like, why why do we want to grow the business? And he says, and he asked why five times and each of them gets to the point well, well, we want to help the Milton Hershey School and that's a school for underprivileged children that Milton Hershey that the founder started way back way back when when the company was when Hershey confectionery was was born. And so that has just continued it's it's it's a free school for underprivileged children and helps them give a you know, gives them an opportunity for education for four different career paths and in the future. And and so what he did was he he asked him, he got them all in a miraculous he came up with the same answer while we is Because we want to help these children who are in a community, and this school is actually in view, if you've ever been to Hershey town, it smells of chocolate and the school is actually a fantastic magical place. And the school is actually in that community. So, um, I mean, they could have, like you said, focus on the environment, focus on governance, focus on inequality, the water, clean oceans, all these kinds of things. But I guess going back to what is important to them, and what they are good at what what is closest to them, I guess, it could be what what their strengths are right. And this is something they've they've worked on, and it's very close to, to the team. And so this is, this was the purpose. I can give another example, as well, in terms of in terms of purpose. Hubert jolien, was the CEO that was brought in to turn around Best Buy, if you remember, a number of years ago, I think was 2012. Amazon was knocking at the gates and Best Buy was beating money losing a lot of sales, analysts that shut the stores firing people and call it a day. Of course, you But Joe Lee comes in and says no, this, any people related expense, that will be a last resort. And what he did was he basically he focus the people on their purpose. And the purpose is, and enabling, enriching the lives of others through technology, that was the purpose that day they came up with, and how that translated from, you know, from again, from the purpose into the strategy was there his team then took that took that took that purpose, and interpreted it and say, well, we want to help the elderly community in, in the elderly, in our community, we want them to help, we want to help them live longer, and more independently, and in a safer way. So what that resulted in was, they, of course, all a lot more connected devices, things like Google Home, and Alexa, there were more notification at biases, so that if anything would happen, the authorities would warn, would be worn and help with come help with come their way. And there was also mobility, you know, support technology, everything that would help the elderly in the community to and the vulnerable to be able to live on their own more independently and for longer. And so that, you know, that's how purpose actually translates into into strategy and even found them a new, I guess, target niche consumer group that they were not necessarily focused on before. And all of a sudden, that, you know, when they like focus on the purpose, they found their, their niche they found, they found where they could, they could really create a positive impact. And the other side of that story, is remember, I said, Amazon was knocking at their doors. And you and so what he did was, traditionally, what people would do is, competitors in the same field will be fighting, they will invest a lot of money, throw a lot of money, basically to kill the competition. Instead, he said, Hey, you know, we have physical stores, you're basically online, Amazon, why don't we work together, you have a bunch of devices that would help our customer. So why don't you we help you sell it in our stores. And that basically helped the two of them instead of, again, wasting resources to kill the competition. They made one plus one equals three. And so they grew the business. And they were, you know, they, yeah, they collaborated, essentially, which is the other part of altruistic capitalist mindset. When you collaborate with others in your industry or adjacent industries. I think that's another way where you can create a positive impact for the environment and

 

Roy Barker  24:10

for communities. Yeah, well, first off, I was gonna say maybe the best way I can help my mother with her remote, she seems to have a lot of trouble keeping that thing working. So I may send her that we, you know, unfortunately, in business, we take that view of there, it's a zero sum game, and in most places, there is enough out there for all of us to be winners that we should, especially when we talk about smaller companies, but even with the large ones, you know, we can work together in ways to actually like you said, Make one plus one equal three, not have, you know, a duel to the death where, in some instances, you know, both companies end up being hurt dramatically. But yeah, there is absolutely no need to do all to the depth. Exactly, exactly. Because that done, you know, because consumers get a, they get tired of hearing those messaging as well, instead of thinking about these partnerships, and how they can help each other, as you know, and I think that's also too good that you know, the, that we help the different groups, there's so much there's so much need out there. And, you know, if we just have an open mind as businesses about where we can serve our community, we really can't, you know, if we do it correctly, we can't go wrong with that messaging,

 

Lynn  25:32

right. And maybe, to add to that, maybe if we also collaborate and partner with people within our industry on common problems, so for instance, fashion companies that work together to find a way in which to recycle to use recycled fabrics, or to develop new materials in which there is less need to use virgin material, because everyone has that same problem, reducing waste, reducing landfills, reducing the clothes that we dump in our landfill. So there there is a fashion Alliance, where fashion companies get together and talk about these problems. So you're united in the common enemy, which is, which is climate change. Right?

 

Roy Barker  26:16

Right. So how do we scale these activities? Because, you know, I'm just telling you my opinion, as, as the CEO, we've come up with this great mission or a good community that we can serve. But then how do we try to decide, you know, how many, how many, how much resources and that could be money, cash direct, and be, you know, there's a lot of instances today, which I'm in favor of is giving employees so much time, you know, to four hours a month, to go out and serve in something that they feel that that's really their passion? So how do we kind of walk the line between trying to scale these activities, but yet, you know, being mindful, we have a business to run? And we do actually turn a profit.

 

Lynn  27:07

Yes. Very, very, very good question. I think, important to always remember, in doing good, we still need to make money, because you cannot, you cannot create a positive impact unless you've maintained financial discipline. So I'm very grateful for my business background, I understand the things that you need to do in order to be financially responsible, because let's not forget about that, if you're not financially responsible, you don't have a well run business, and you cannot then make the changes and scale the solutions that you're talking about. Right. And I think one way in terms of scaling your solutions, and the impact that you're doing is to have collaborations to have partnerships with others in adjacent industries. And sure, because we all have complementary assets and skills that we are not all good in one thing, but if we share what we're good at and find complementary partners, I think that can really help scale the impact that we have, and find people who have the same values who want to solve the same problem. That for me is one way and and to be open about it to be vulnerable. And, and I'd say this is what I want you to do. And that goes the same for partners for people we collaborate with, and also with employees, like this is the problem that we want to solve. And this is what we have, how can we do it? And yeah, and leave it to that? No, I

 

Roy Barker  28:32

think that's a good point. We don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel. There's other organizations that are very good at doing whatever they do that we find a way that we can support them, you know, to further their mission, as well.

 

Lynn  28:46

Yeah, yeah. So there, I mean, going, going back to also being mindful to let go of that ego to wanting to put your name on everything, because every collaborate I mean, we're thinking about the impact that that that we have, that we could have if we collaborate. So instead of wanting Yeah, I want my name on this, and this and this, and I'm just keeping everything to myself, what could you achieve if you let that ego go? Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  29:16

So you talk about the other thing that you talk about a little bit is grit. And, you know, I love that there was a good book not long ago written about you know, it was basically on how we look at people is, you know, they have good skills, this tap, but sometimes it's that third component of grit, of just finding a way to grind it out finding that way to be successful above you know, all other things. So talk a little bit about that in the purpose driven business model.

 

Lynn  29:47

So um, grit, as Angela Duckworth, define it in a book grit is passion plus perseverance. And I see if you start off with your purpose and being mindful And then you are focused on the one thing instead of, I've got like these 10 things that I wanted to look at, you know what, what your, so you already have your target, you have your goal you have, you know what you're going to focus on. And then the perseverance part, I see. I described that as as being like the athlete. And even if even if you're not in a team sport, even if you're a runner, or you're a marathon runner or something, how you built perseverance is by training with others. And taking that to the business world. If we build partnerships and Coalition's with others, this helps us see, hey, the problem is not so big after all, because we have all these other people working on it with us. And of course, then you share knowledge, give each other feedback. And it's the same in sports, working with others that helps both of you get to your destination get to your end goal quicker.

 

Roy Barker  30:55

Yeah. Yeah, I really liked that. And thank you for mentioning her name. I just love that book. Because it's a concept that, you know, unfortunately, we don't look at we try, we tend to look at what's tangible, on piece of paper, but then there's always this grip factor that it means the difference between success and failure a lot of times mm hmm, exactly starts with a mind. mindset. Exactly. Well, let's transition and talk about active eight for just a minute. Tell us a little bit about the importance of increasing women in technology and entrepreneurship.

 

Lynn  31:35

So how activate networks started was I, you know, I was very much involved in technology startups, I would go to different conferences and different events. And oftentimes, I would be one of the few women standing in the room. And that's the same when I'm, you know, in conversations about innovation and technology, I find myself like the lone voice. And it was sometimes uncomfortable. I so I would sometimes silence myself. And, you know, I wanted to change that I wanted to shift that. And kind of, I wanted to have more women involved in that conversation, because there is a half the population that we're not listening to, and think about the diversity of opinions that we have that could result in better products. What I mean, this is another mindset that I talked about, in my book, be curious, ask questions, what are the assumptions behind what we're saying? So that's the same with with increasing diversity, if we ask questions, if we include the other in, in our conversations and our problems, we in our global issues, we will be able to come up with better, better solutions.

 

Roy Barker  32:58

That's a common problem that I see in businesses is that you know, what we call a homogeneous group. And it turns into groupthink, which can turn us down the wrong path. And that's why, you know, diversity is so important, because we need everybody's viewpoint to make our product or service better. And, you know, we can't segregate that and say, well, it's just, you know, this one brain trust over here, they've got all the answers we need to get, what is your thoughts and feelings on the way that we deliver a service or how you use our product? And so many questions that we need to be asking to a diverse group.

 

Lynn  33:39

Yeah, because if you also create a product by a certain group, you're only selling to that group, you're missing out on this whole other group that you could be selling to, right. Oh, why not make something that is inclusive for everybody?

 

Roy Barker  33:53

Right? Yeah. And I, you know, I find my life is my partner, Terry, you know, my find my life is better when I get when I fall in line, and do I think that's a message that we can spread that, you know, women come from a different place. And, you know, usually it's that nurturing, caring side. And so, you know, we need that, especially when we talk about the altruistic capitalist point of view, is, you know, we can't just always be income statements and balance sheets and just script concise business all the time. I mean, we have to think about these other things. And what better way to do that.

 

Lynn  34:38

Yeah, we can stare at the bottom line the whole time. And the good thing is, I believe that and the next my prediction is that will change in the next two or three years, where it becomes mandatory reporting to report on your diversity metrics. What are you doing in terms of investing in people in the community? What are you doing in terms of regenerating the economy, redistributing the The the resources around you, what are you doing in terms of governance? How is it that you're running or managing governing the your business? So I think these are good things that are coming down the pipeline, I predict, and I hope, which which will really shift the way in which business businesses are on?

 

Roy Barker  35:20

Yeah, and we're definitely going to advocate that message. I think it's only that we can only better ourselves, our local environment, and you know, the world in general, we can only make it better by implementing these things. One thing I will ask how do we, how do we measure the change or the success? And I guess, you know, there are metrics that will be set out before people invest capital, you know, dollars or human capital, but also as an investor, a company tells me they're, you know, doing this certain thing, how it How can I be sure that they are actually doing it and that it actually is making a difference? I'm?

 

Lynn  36:07

Very, very deep question. Yeah. And I think there are a couple of layers to that. I think, in terms of knowing the impact that a company's making the the stakeholder capitalism metrics that the World Economic Forum proposed way back in, in September of 2020. I think what that does for investors, the investor community in general, it aligns the deadlines, the impact for across company, so it becomes like gap reporting, or IFRS type reporting, where it's standardized. And so I can see I can compare apples to apples, across businesses and across industries. So that's one thing. And the second thing, I think, with investors, how would they really know, I think, is to want to have these conversations regularly instead of, you know, show me your report card on a quarterly basis. It's like, tell me, what is it that you're doing? How are you seeing that shifting? So having more authentic and real conversations about the long term, and what they're doing right now, with, with the management instead of just saying, hey, ah, show me your report? Did you meet the estimates that you told me last quarter.

 

Roy Barker  37:24

And we can also get involved? I mean, there's all kinds of ways that we can get involved with companies, even if we don't work for them to help on these different missions that they're on. And I don't want to speak at a term. But I think that there are actually some investment managers that they look at maybe a social or environmental issue, and they invest to that. So I mean, that's a good way to help is to have professionals that are kind of looking down over that if you're really concerned about that.

 

Lynn  37:56

Yeah. Larry Fink actually is very big on the impact investing on a on environmental, social and governance type investing.

 

Roy Barker  38:05

Okay, cool. All right, Lynn. Well, thank you so much for your time. It's been wonderful speaking with you, this is a great message, not only the Activate, you know, getting more women participation in technology and entrepreneurship, but also on the altruism capitalist, capitalist, you know, investments in what is it? environmental, social, and governance changes that can help the world around us, the people around us, the employees within the company? so much great. It's a good start. And I think that there's a lot like I said, it's kind of like this triangle where companies are getting a lot of pressure from employees, investors, and consumers that maybe we can make some big changes in the years to come. That would be great. I hope so. Definitely. All right. Well, before we get away, do you have a habit? Or is there a tool that you use daily in your professional or personal life that you just can't do without?

 

Lynn  39:07

Hmm, I, I have a few habits, particularly in the morning, I like to start off with, I will share one in particular, and that is journaling. I write every morning. I think that really helps me to be more mindful and also to reflect on what is important to me. It because it all starts I believe everything starts with a mindset. And the structure that I have with my journal is what what have I learned? What would I like to learn or experiment with? And so one of the things that I'm trying to what I'm experimenting with right now is intermittent fasting, for instance. And the other thing is, what are my triggers? What is it that comes back? So for instance, even with my book, it came back different times. I didn't just wake up a year ago and say, and said, Okay, I'm going to write a book right now. It was actually multiple seeds that were planted over the years like, hey, like, why did you write a book and then, and one of them just just before I finally pulled the trigger and said, Okay, I'm gonna write a book was a friend of mine said, hey, I've got a publisher for you. Do you want to talk to the publisher or not? So, yeah, so those are, those are the three questions that I, I write in my journal everyday or reflect on in my journal. But what is it I've learned? What is it I would like to learn? And what are the triggers that keep reoccurring? Interesting?

 

Roy Barker  40:36

Oh, you know, I journal I've been, I've tried for years, but I kind of like on and off. But this, you know, the last six or eight months, I've been pretty well on and so but I think that's a good point to have that structure, you know, something to write to every day that will be of benefit. And the other question I'd asked to, like, how do you feel like journaling helped you to write the book, you know, writing every day, because I've heard, you know, writing is just like a muscle that we have to exercise and you have to build it up? And so you know, writing in a journal every day? Did that really? Did it make it easier for you when you started putting the book together?

 

Lynn  41:17

fair question. I don't think that I don't think journaling. journaling helped me necessarily, I think is, in part, me setting aside time and saying, alright, I'm going to have time to reflect and meditate daily. And that's like, 15 minutes for journaling. And what I did with no similar thing with with my writing process, I set aside every Sunday, so you would, would have been very hard to reach me in that period. And that in that year, when I was writing the book to contact me on Sundays, because that was my writing day, I would do all my research and all my interviews and calls and meetings during the week. And then on the Sunday, it was when I synthesize everything, when I process everything, and I put it out in in a written form. And that's and that was my process, you couldn't get me on a Sunday, it helped that it was COVID as well.

 

Roy Barker  42:19

Because there's so many people that have so much great information, want to get their ideas out, but it's that no, that blank page can be an antagonist for sure. And then also, I think that's good setting aside the time, you know, I just encourage everybody to really get your message out there, you know, you can take that time to really put it down, because that's how we learn. I mean, you know, I think this is a great, a great movement that you're talking about here that doesn't get a lot of press, you know, we hear more and more about it. But the more people that write about and talk about it, the better off we are for a lot of things. So yeah, well tell everybody, how can they reach out? How can they get involved? or How can they reach the active eight network? And then also, how can they reach out and get a copy of the book or get out, reach out and talk to you?

 

43:09

Well, people can write to me at [email protected] and write me and I'll send you a signed copy. And then that you can also reach me there of course to talk about ACTV8 Network. And the same if you would like to keep up on us as I continue to research and talk talk about the topic. So again, altruisticcapitalist.com is a website and you can email me at [email protected].

 

Roy Barker  43:38

All right, awesome, Lynn. Well,thank you so much for your time. We certainly appreciate it. And I will ask you to, you know, keep up come back on give us some updates as you work through this process. We certainly appreciate that. I love to thank you so much, Roy. Okay, you bet. that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. Of course I am your host Roy. You can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com. We are on all the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, for not a one that you listened to please reach out we'd be glad to get that added. Make your listening easier. We are on all the major social media networks probably hang out on Instagram a little bit more than other places. And a video of this interview will go up when the episode goes live. So go over to our YouTube channel. Check that out. Until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.

www.altruisticcapitalist.com

www.actv8.network

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Peace Or Chaos: Where Are You Headed? Make Space For Yourself and What's Important Featuring Femi Doyle-Marshall

What is your vision for your business and your life? Are these things cohesive or divergent? You can either be working toward peace in your business and life or you will be headed for chaos. It's a choice that we make every day. Choose wisely as your decision will stay with you for a longer period than you may think

About Femi

Femi Doyle-Marshall is a serial entrepreneur, mentor, author and founder of REBOOTX Academy; the go to source for entrepreneurial personal and professional development.

He works exclusively with coaches, super entrepreneurs and experts who are needing to breakthrough clarity, confidence and money blocks to build a better business and life.

Femi is obsessed with studying and applying patterns that produce personal and professional breakthroughs to create transformative, long-lasting growth and success for himself and his students.

www.rebootx.com

www.myrebootbook.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Full Transcript Below

Peace Or Chaos: Where Are You Headed? Make Space For Yourself Featuring Femi Doyle-Marshall

Tue, 7/20 12:22PM • 1:03:17

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, day, reboot, focusing, business, talk, academy, book, weeks, happen, entrepreneur, feel, creating, mind, trust, building, life, planner, big, thinking Peace or Chaos Where are you headed

SPEAKERS

Femi, Roy Barker

Roy Barker  00:05

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, we are the podcast that brings a wide variety of guests that can talk about a diverse set of topics, tried to maybe help see some things that you weren't aware of, or actually provide some help for some things that may be keeping you up late at night. And so today is no different. We have an awesome guest, I've been waiting for a while to get him on.

 

So thank thank him for his patience and being here, but Femi Doyle Marshall, he is a serial entrepreneur, mentor, author and founder of Reboot x Academy, the go to source for entrepreneurial personal and professional development. He works exclusively with coaches, super entrepreneurs, and experts who are needing to break through cleric who are needing to break through clarity, confidence, and money blocks to build a better business in life. Femi is obsessed with studying and applying patterns that produce personal and professional breakthroughs to create transformative, long lasting growth and success for himself and his students.

 

Femi, we appreciate you taking time out of your day. I wish we got this conversation, you know, we had pre show awesome conversation. So I'm really looking forward to this, this is gonna be great. Before we get too far off into all of the professional stuff, tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of how you found yourself here. And then also, you've got a lot of community awards, I want you to mention some of those. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it in big enough type I could read it was bleeding together. So please go ahead and let us hear some of those as well.

 

Femi  01:45

Yeah, no, no worries, I want to say thank you for having here. Because, you know, having an outlet to connect with other purpose driven entrepreneurs is an asset. You know, like, I think when you're building a business, having a space that you can share your thoughts and having a community of like minds is transformative. So we no like I think, like, if I were to start off, like, who was me was my background was my experience.

 

You know, I i've been entrepreneurship from the age of 16, you know, launched my first coaching business from that, really with just following gut following intuition. Not knowing where it would lead me to, you know, and and kind of started with working with my teachers in high school, I actually was an athlete for a number of years backstory from that was had had a really bad injury, broken tibia, fibula, or leg. Yeah, was it a full leg cast in high school in a wheelchair. And I wasn't willing myself to the gym, started doing pull ups, teachers are like, This kid is crazy. Like, I work with you, and I was like, okay, and I was maybe 1617 at the time that started my first business.

 

And I went from work with my teachers in high school, to running corporate programs, doing stuff with like FedEx, and things like that for corporations, running specialty disability fitness programs, building the team out. And really just was obsessed with understanding how to operate a successful business. And from there, I was doing like print companies at the same time. I was doing like distribution for apparel at the same time.

 

So I was supplying my own company and supplying other businesses. And that kind of led led me to where we are today. But I think even before we get to the entrepreneurial path, like, like you said, community, and impact was probably one of the biggest things I've always focused on. So ranging from the Lieutenant Governor Lincoln and Alexander award recipient.

 

That was for basically raising funds for different communities that are required more knowledge for health, more knowledge for diversity, and, and really building and bridging the gap for for diversity when it comes to culture, for fundraising, things like that we raised I don't even remember how much money we raised, but I raised quite a number of dollars for my high school when I was 1617 at the time, and from that to Bob Marley day award recipient, published my first book in 2018, as well, and all of these things just kind of came from the idea that community isn't like you can't like you talked about it before the show, but you got to give back. Because somebody helped you get to where you are today. So yeah, that's kind of bypass. And I guess I'm really happy to be here.

 

Roy Barker  04:50

Yeah. And I think you're so right, that we, you know, well, there's so much to unpack there. You know, number one, how do we be successful? I think the First thing we can do is define success, it's not always the biggest business the most money, sometimes we can get to the end of that journey and feel very empty. So, you know, I can only speak for me personally, that thing, you know, those relationships that we have, and you know, that's not only our family, but our friends, our colleagues, our clients, I mean, everybody, you know, there.

 

And, you know, I just say, one of the benefits of doing this podcast is not only meeting, you know, like, awesome people like yourself, but meeting people from across this globe. It's not like they're just people in my backyard. And, you know, we have a young lady that we met in Australia, that her and her husband ended up being here in Austin, Texas. And so we ended up meeting and having dinner, and it was a great time. But this is somebody who, you know, we basically met online and formed this friendship.

 

So you know, what a time to be alive, that we can do those things. It's just incredible. But anyway, I think, you know, talking about this, finding that success is one thing, but then giving back because our community that surrounds us is so important in our daily life that we, you know, helping kids develop at school or you know, helping the neighbor that can't get out and mow the lawn, whatever that is, however, it looks for you, but there are ways that we can all give back.

 

Femi  06:23

What's so interesting about that is, like, as you're saying, the concept of like giving back and realizing that's kind of what I'm doing now with, with the Academy. You know, I didn't really think of it that way till though I'm hearing you speak. And I recognize that when I launched my first business from the age of 16, I didn't know the source, I didn't know where to find information for Brandon, I didn't know how to market I didn't know what to sell.

 

I didn't, I didn't know how to set up the right structures, I didn't know you should have a cut off time to protect your health. You know, I didn't know. And these would think it's crazy to think about it, because you're not thinking about it. When you're when you're like a startup or you're an entrepreneur, you're like, I got this vision, I'm gonna build this dream, I'm going to make it happen. But very rarely, you have somebody that's on your corner that has gone through being broken, being burnt being like, Hey, you don't want to end up on this side of the equation.

 

Because, like, it's not pretty, you know what I mean? And I think someone looks at me, like you're young, but the amount of experiences I've went through already, you know, personal and professional, it kind of allows me to look at someone to be like, if you keep going down this path for like, another 365 days, right? You're gonna wish weren't because you could pivot and be in a much better position of power and find peace and balance all at the same time. So I never really looked at what I'm doing now as getting back to what now I'm actually seeing just from talking to you today. so angry journal.

 

Roy Barker  08:06

Yeah, yeah, the, you know, cutting off to protect our health, that's important. You know, we've talked to, we talked about a lot pre show, but that's one thing we covered is, and I have to, you know, I'm the first one to stand up and take responsibility for my actions and say, it's hard and, and it's an ebb and flow. You know, there's times in my life where I've understood it more than others. And then, you know, it's, it's, I'm also a victim of liking what I do a lot and feeling very passionate about it.

 

So, you know, I don't feel the drudgery of like, Oh, my gosh, I'm working, it's like, I'm excited to do this. And then I've got 12 other things I want to do. And then you figure out, you know, as you work through those, it's like, more stuff comes up. And, you know, you could just get caught up. But, you know, I think what I started feeling was just a little drugged down, not sleeping, well, kind of cloudy in the mornings.

 

And so it's funny that, you know, our, the time we're taking here is this week is I said, Look, I'm getting back to cutting things off at a reasonable hour in the evening, going to get to the gym every day, gonna, you know, get some exercise, start watching the water intake, you know, all these things that you know, and still living on caffeine, you know, trying to stay stay up and motivated. So, but it's a different perspective that, you know, I feel my mind as much clear thinking and probably making better decisions and then also being more productive in that time allowed.

 

Femi  09:39

Exactly. And I think what most people don't realize is, productivity isn't just an app. You know, like, it's not just you writing stuff in your journal, or other things you need to do really starts from within yourself that can help you achieve those breakthroughs in your business. You know, I'll share the story kind of like for me of how the academy really started. So it might have been, it was probably just 2018. Right?

 

So yeah, it was the end of 2018. I already wrote, I was just about to finish write my book. And I remember I was I was in this period where the health the fitness business was growing, you know, outsourcing all the work, you know, were literally signing up more people it like everything was moving in the right direction. You know, I was driving one hour to the location, one hour bag every day. So that's two hour commute.

 

Okay. Now, what I wasn't seeing that was happening was I started to pile on as we're saying more work, go get something done, then I added my three other tasks to the list. Now keep doing that, every single day, not having a cut off time, we're going to stop working at eight o'clock today. And I'm stopping at like 1130 at night like that would be consistent. An opportunity came up where someone asked us where if we would come into their location and expand the facility. And I saw that as a great opportunity to grow the brand, like let's go, let's let's let's move everything over. In one week, I moved the entire location.

 

So I've moved my team, I moved all of the members, everybody in like a week. That was when everything changed drastically. I was at a studio one day running a session working with a client. And this was probably one of the busiest days like there was like four or five people running back and forth. I was training one of my team members up, we just hired how to facilitate the program, there was somebody in who was on a trial that was going to sign up. And there was somebody at the other side of the studio that doesn't talk about signing up. And all I remember is while they were moving back and forth at the facility, I'm about to talk to the new person about what it's like to work with us at this location.

 

And I just feel it's sharp paint, shoot down the right side of my head, all the way down my arm, out of nowhere, just sharp. I could extend, I want up buddy realized I actually couldn't move that to sit down. Then I put up thought. Now to put in perspective, the number of years before that my mother had a stroke. So I kind of recognize these are very similar symptoms of what what really couldn't happen. Now putting into context and move to a whole new location in a week, I have more people to sign up. Because this is a growing business. I have team members to train because I'm looking to outsource my work. I have all of these responsibilities plus them, I'm newly married, all of these things are like bottled in at the same time.

 

We came to a point where I'm sitting down on this bench, and the members are coming by they're like me, are you okay? And I'm like, no. Like, I'm not like water, like I actually can't move. They're like, what do you want to do like, call my wife called her. I couldn't get to the office, they have to walk me to the office because I couldn't walk.

 

Roy Barker  13:09

Wow, how scary.

 

Femi  13:11

It was terrifying. I told my wife what was happening, I broke down. Because I realized my body broke down. And she's like, get to the hospital, I got to the hospital, my blood pressure was like 190 or some ridiculous high like it was high. I couldn't actually walk into the hospital. So that the wheel the end of the wheelchair. I was out of work for four weeks. Four weeks, fortunately, it wasn't a stroke. And I call it my wife and I call it no stress attack.

 

But it's a Wake Up Now that was my wake up call where it was like, my health is important at the end of the day, at the end of the day. Right? What if, if that if your clock is is called, it's like, okay, your time? What are you gonna look back on? You're gonna look back on and be like, I'm in this place. And I signed up five people, you know? And I was like, no, it's what's the impact that mean? How did I transform these lives?

 

How am I? What What, what's my quality of life gonna be like? And I realize a lot of entrepreneurs are in that situation where they're putting crazy hours into something. We were talking about it crazy hours into this, this post you got to do, you know, and it has to be released in like 10 days. But is that really where you should be putting your time and energy? Like, did you go for a walk today?

 

You know, did you pick up the phone and talk to a friend and you said you needed to talk to you know, did you take time to meditate and reflect on your real goals? Like, those are things that most people don't talk about? They think it's just for vision boards, but if you don't have a vision of where you're going, you're going nowhere, like,

 

Roy Barker  14:48

Yeah, I like to let kind of liken it to to speeding down the interstate. You know, you can drive 90 down the interstate and you may get to where you're going a little bit Faster, you know, typically not that much. Because if you're spread it out over days and days, you know, maybe you cut some time, but let's just say Crosstown driving 90, not gonna shave much time off, but you think about when you get pulled over, and how much time you have to waste getting a ticket, or at least talking yourself out one or what, however you resolve it, you think is the time that I thought I might save worse than worth the time that I just gave up?

 

And you know, we have to think about that with our health, I think, you know, because I got five extra things done today, does that make up for two weeks that I'm recuperating from some catastrophic event, or, you know, like yourself four weeks, six weeks? And unfortunately, there's some people that never come back from that. So you have to really think about what is the value of doing that one more thing versus what could it take away?

 

Femi  15:50

There was there was a conversation I had with one of the students in the Academy, where they were focusing on getting clients, right. And I never forgot this was this is a brilliant conversation, where just there's different activities we go through, just got to like, reflect on where you should be focusing your time and your energy for your business or work in your life. Right. So they were doing really well, their business online going in all that stuff.

 

And the conversation kind of popped up where you're like, I really don't have I don't really need to focus on the personal aspects of things, right. I don't really need to focus, you know, I just want to focus on the professional business thing. And I was listening. I'm like, really got my, okay, okay, yeah, that doesn't make sense. But okay, you know that I hear you. And I set a line to them. Why said with the people that you've been focusing on for your clients? Are you sacrificing your peace of mind for that? I just heard them still silent.

 

And I'm like, think about it for a second. Why are you sacrificing your sanity? Your clarity, your peace? Just without dollars? It actually is it is that? Is it worth it? What What if then I like playing this game? What if you got rid of all those people? Not that they're bad people, but they might not be a fit for you. Right? And this is where branding and marketing and positioning and all that stuff, right? They may not be a right fit for you. But what if you start speaking the right language to the right people and charge the right rate that is in alignment, right, the value of providing? What did you find more peace of mind, more sanity, more clarity, at the same time?

 

And that that one thing changed their entire business? I think at that point, they doubled the prices of what they were charging people for programming, and I'm like, but that's not what's optimal. When you think about business. Most people are talking about selling well, if you're marketing most people, but when you go home, are you? Are you okay? You're not selling? Are you? Are you calm? Are you? Are you a piece? Are you thinking I gotta make a sale? That's not that's not okay.

 

Roy Barker  18:08

Yeah, and, you know, I think starting out, we have that. Sometimes we have that mentality about, you know, we have takers, people beat us down on price. And we're like, oh, I really need the business. So, you know, we do this, and then, you know, and a lot of this depends on the business, the product, the service, and all of that.

 

So this is kind of an in general statement that, you know, we have to fine tune that to have our service at the right price. And, you know, it may not be right for everybody. But if if we give a we have a good service or product and it's priced right for the group that we want to attract, it's much better than having any of it because the other part of that is, I've had to fire clients before. And it's not fun. But there are some people that just, you know, they got a good price, but they're taking up more of your time with these little add ons, or this, you know, more hand holding or whatever that is, and sometimes you just have to say, look, you know, I've been reduced to minimum wage.

 

Now I've got to deal with, we got to take some action here. And sometimes that's just you know, you can do it professionally, but sometimes that just means separating.

 

Femi  19:19

Yep. I've mentioned this so many times where you got to protect your state, you got to protect your state, you got to protect your space. You got to protect what it is that you're building for yourself. Right? Like if you're every entrepreneur has built a business with a with a vision of some sort of freedom. Right? They want to create, and this is the funny thing I remember I was in this building one day and I was clocking another entrepreneur, entrepreneur. Ironically, both of us are entrepreneurs in the elevator at the same time.

 

And he's like, oh, you're an entrepreneur. And I was like, Yeah, like, Are you an entrepreneur? He's like, yeah, and he's like, wow, you have the best of the worst boss at the same time. I was like, well, that's actually true. That makes sense. Because we will set a target change the target, we will bend the rules. But no, it's not in alignment to who we are. We use that word earlier. Like it's not, it just doesn't feel right. But we'll do it for right now. And then justify it. It cost you something, though. And I want to share that point, like, every time I'm on a call I have I have like, what is the vision of the academy? Right next to me.

 

So like, when I'm talking, I know why I'm here, what I'm sharing. And the biggest thing I'm looking at is when you're at alignment, it becomes a lot easy. It's easier to be authentic with your actions, authentic with who you're interacting with authentic to become an authority, authentic when it comes to marketing, authentic when it comes to changing the price point or letting somebody go and say, Hey, you know, you're an amazing individual, I just don't think now's the right time for us to work together. Right? Well, right? What if you're not really working on yourself on a personal level? Now professionally, those types of conversations are near to impossible to have?

 

Roy Barker  21:20

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we are the hardest on ourself. Typically, you know, and I've talked a lot about this, that, you know, if I had 10 things on my to do list today, and I got seven done, and I'm, I can't be happy with that I will focus on these three, you know, that we didn't get done and, you know, beat ourselves up and work late, do whatever. And, you know, if we're prioritizing our activities and our to dues correctly, you know, we should be happy. I mean, if I could hit, you know, 700 I'd be a gazillionaire, you know, playing baseball right now. But, you know, as an entrepreneur is like, well, that's, you know, not total failure, but it's like, oh, as a fail today, it really isn't.

 

Femi  22:04

Yeah, yeah. But

 

Roy Barker  22:05

we are, you know, we are our own worst enemies, sometimes with that, you know, with our self confidence and, and that self talk, I don't think we talked about this enough. But what's that little voice in your head always saying, I'm not good enough, because I didn't get these three things done. I missed that last sale, because of who knows what. But you know, we have to flip that switch, and always be like, Hey, good job, you got seven done. That's why we're gonna be here again, tomorrow, we'll get the other ones done.

 

Femi  22:32

There. There, there was something I mentioned on another show. That is what I call my secret weapon, when it comes to creating clarity, and really growing, my brand and the businesses that I've built. And it really has been a part of my life for a number of years. But I didn't really realize what it was till like, the academy started. And I call these things are twos. They're called Art tubes. And they stand for a reboot rituals. So here's what most people do. Most people just wake up. You might have a coffee, they might have a team.

 

And they might scroll on your phone already, you get distracted. Right? And not realize there's certain rituals you can do, there are certain routines you can do that can prepare you to be aligned for the rest of the day. Right? Most people don't think about that. are what are the thoughts going through your mind? Are you putting in thoughts that will move you forward? And will you backward from the beginning of the day? Right? Are you doing things that will improve your health, improve your finances, improve your spirituality, improve your family relationships from like, the beginning of the day, if you're not thinking of those things, what ends up happening is you just start the day you have the planner, you'll have you write stuff down in the planner becomes a checklist. And a checklist doesn't really lead to fulfillment.

 

It's just you're knocking stuff off the list, right? So I know for me, that has been one of my most valuable tools, utilizing our tools on a day to day basis, looking at my schedule and being like, you know, I have the right state of mind to have this conversation with his prospect. Right? I had the right state of mind before I hop on to this interview into this podcast, I had the right state of mind before I make the sales call, am I in the right state of mind before I make this content, like these are things that allow you to start protecting your state a lot better, and preparing you for success. Long term not for like, just the day like, like long term, habit forming, you know, pattern creation.

 

I talk a lot about like pattern jacking No, which is like taking patterns from people that are really successful that you want to duplicate pattern stacking, which is like the kind of combining things together or in pattern wiping is like bringing into your life so it fits well. But that starts when you have the rituals and the routines from the beginning. So anybody's like, I don't know, how to get my life on track? What are your rituals? Like, what are you doing? When you wake up, go to bed, how do you shut off when you're done working? That's, that's, that's a valuable thing to learn.

 

Roy Barker  25:15

Yeah, and it's important, I think that starting the day, because I notice, if I get up, and I'm hitting my marks, my days go much better, much more productive than if I get off track, you know, I might spend the rest of my day trying to get back on track and, you know, be less productive. And I think this gets, you know, a lot of things I've implemented as of late, that meditation component, I tried to do that, to get that my the right mindset to start today.

 

And also to end the day, it's a great way to clear my head, to be able to sleep because, you know, I noticed when I go from thinking and working right to bed, you know, I lay in there, and it takes me a long time to kind of decompress where if I could do my meditation, it's, it's done. And, you know, kind of going back to something you said a little earlier about creativity is, you know, that's another good reason for us to get up from our desk and go take that walk, because we stifle that creativity, if we are just constantly scheduled.

 

And, you know, that's not just me talking, there's a lot of scientific information and a lot of research that goes into that, that, you know, we need to schedule those breaks in our time. Any no have to walk if you're not, but that's where I tend to pick up, you know, if I'm struggling with how do I say this or an Excel problem, I can't figure out or just wanting to think about something new. If I will go for a short 15 minute walk, it just really opens up my mind.

 

Femi  26:49

Yeah, you need to create space for your mind to grow. Right, right. And I think like the belief of being a workaholic, and working non stop is a solution for business success is alive. Yeah. Like legit alive. Like, if you ask these people, are they happy? Behind the scenes? They'll probably say that, right?

 

Roy Barker  27:16

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes, their loved one. If they're happy with them, they will probably say not. Right?

 

Femi  27:23

Yeah. You need to take time away. To reflect you need to take time away to really just assess what's working, what's not working. Right, and then have a strategic plan of action on what to do next. And I think that's where you need to create that space, whether it's your walk you're going for, you know, whether it's taking time out, like for me, like I love teas. So it's literally me making tea and letting it sit and steam.

 

That process gives me space to thinking and decide, okay, what's happening? What am I really reflecting on right now? What do I need to change? What's what do I do, I like what's happening to about like, what's happening, maybe I should do this over here. And then I come back to it and bump breaks, like literally every single time. So I were talking about it, I just I just literally left went to a different location for like a week, and came back and the level of clarity I have right now for the business.

 

And it's, it's so interesting how these things happen, I would call that a reboot retreat right away for a period of time. And you come back and you have a fresh mind and fresh eyes. And you're like, Oh, this doesn't feel right right now. But I might be able to use it later. It's an asset. Like you gotta, you can't just obsess over the thing, and expect success to happen without creating that space for it to manifest. So you don't need that.

 

Roy Barker  28:48

Yeah, you know, something else that I've been doing a lot more of is journaling. And I feel like, it's not only journaling my day, but journaling my thoughts. And so, when things aren't, right, it's good to get that out. But also that creativity, like you were just saying that I had this thought but today is not the day, but you know, three weeks, five weeks a year from now, my gun, remember. And so, you know, I use a combination of I just use, you know, like I take notes during these calls, you know, pen and paper can't beat it.

 

But I also use a searchable dictation where I can put my notes and you know, I put smaller bites in through the day. And then that way, you know, I can if I can remember, you know, if I can't remember exactly what I was thinking about on that topic, I can always search back through. So it's as as a business man or as an entrepreneur, just as a person. You know, this is really an awesome time. There's so many tools out there at our disposal to, you know, to really help us with this productivity portion or even with you know, helping to bridge the gap between work in the home, you know, like the journaling.

 

I think you I kind of do that with my meditation in the evening. And I feel like it just, it's the best thing. Sometimes I can actually feel very drained after it hits, you know, you think you're just thinking and maybe are not thinking and writing. But you would be amazed at how just like, everything kind of goes out of you.

 

Femi  30:18

When you're when you're sitting there with all these ideas in your head. There's really nowhere for that to go. Right. And I think that's where a lot of the stressors to kind of come into play, and it can end up doing more damage than good. at the same point in time, I think I have, I have mine, actually, we have the lanterns over here. Like we have rebo planners. And the big thing is, you need to be able to offload those ideas, those concepts, you need to be able to see what it is you're working on why you're working on it.

 

And not just like I said, not just a basic task was like having stuff that are significant to you. But then knowing Is this where I should be putting my time, my energy, my money right now. Right? Maybe Maybe it's not for right now, maybe it's for like a week from now or two weeks from now or a year from now. But you have a place that you could go back and reference, right and go, I can use that when it is the right time. So journaling is a powerful asset. I talked about worship walks or meditation walks or like going like being able to just take time and creating that space need to do that.

 

And creating that part of your lifestyle, your day to day. So you have that space to know where your next business ideas are going to come from. You need to know where I shouldn't spending my next $100 $200 $500 or 1,010k, whatever the number is you're spending for marketing and your time, like you need to create that space, or you're going to forever feel like you're overwhelmed. Like it's not pretty. It's not.

 

Roy Barker  31:57

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And you'd mentioned earlier, I want to come back to that to the trusted group and surrounding yourself with people that we trust. You know, I'm fortunate enough, my partner is awesome. And she keeps me on track, you know, when I when I overdo it, and I'm not really knowing that she doesn't mind tapping me on the shoulder and saying no, enough is enough time to step away. So you know, surrounding ourselves with people that we trust that can give us honest feedback that aren't just totally crushing us. But, you know, I think like business roundtables, I think that they are good, I think we maybe sometimes our pride gets in the way that we are expected or we expect ourselves to know everything and have a solution.

 

But if we can meet and be a part of a like minded group, and sometimes you have to be careful with pricing and collusion and things like that, if they're in the same industry. But you know, there's a lot of times you can reach out to people that may be in a different town, that are in the same industry, but not direct competitors, and have a conversation. I know, because I used to know a group of men that met that, you know, we, we were all in the same industry, different disciplines. And so we could help each other with what we were working on feeding leads, and just market intelligence like, Hey, did you know they're building this new place over here.

 

-

 

Femi  34:03

It's so true, because I think like, one of the things I talk a lot about with students is the power of angers, right, like having positive anchors. And when I'm referencing, say, anchors, I'm talking about people that are very close to you, that can help move your vision forward. You know, whether they're more knowledgeable in that specific field, or they might be a partner within that specific area that you're focusing on. It makes a difference because I know, like I said earlier.

 

When when I first want to entrepreneurship, I didn't have those tools, I have to I have to go dig in search and find these environments that really could have helped me propel my success faster. Right and not just basketball, but Teach me where I could be going wrong, like like that is that is actually more valuable than you just trying to move quickly. Like, knowing where to not step up is even more valuable.

 

And I think believing that you're a silo and you're operating this thing by yourself, and you don't need other people that are specialists in other categories to guide, you can create more problems for your business and your life, way more than you can even calculate, like, if I were to think back to if I had somebody that had a stress attack, because they were working crazy hours, and they were really growing their business, talking to me, before I hit that point, it would have prevented me not being able to work for four weeks.

 

Right? Right. If I had somebody that advised me how to position my besuchen in a way to my market, I wouldn't be working with higher quality individuals at a faster level with my beginning businesses. Now, if I had someone, literally Tell me, Hey, you need to set time aside for your family. Because you have a new family. While I was growing, that business is the beginning stages, that would have made, everything we're experiencing right now happen a lot sooner. So you need people like I don't think that first off to sell a product, you need more than a product or program, you need more than you to learn how to sell a product, you need more than right.

 

And to learn how to brand it, how to market it, you need need tools, and these tools come from people. And it's not a very valuable circle of friends or contacts, which can become your anchors that'll transform your life, in your business wherever you go.

 

Roy Barker  36:51

Yeah, and, you know, you just made me think about, you know, we look at athletes at the highest level, and they all have a team coach to make sure that they're moving them in the right direction. But then I would venture to say most athletes probably have personal coaches that work with them outside of that, to help them be the best them to then be the best part of a team and I, and I don't know why sometimes we might lose our mind a little bit. It's like, well, I'm a business owner, entrepreneur, and I'm here by myself, I'm on my island, I don't need anybody else.

 

But you know, maybe, maybe I'm an awesome salesperson, but I don't know much about, you know, the marketing, get my message out there, or the you know, the, the digital aspects, the mechanics of it. Maybe you know, the other part I see a lot is, so they are great at this discipline. But now all of a sudden, they're doing the books trying to do payroll, you know, we get to the end of the year, and it's a big mess.

 

 And so then we can kind of extrapolate to what we were saying earlier is like, okay, we save some money through the year, but now we're paying twice as much at the end of the year to get all this mess straightened out. So you know, being able to not only reach out to talk to people, but also hire experts in the field that we need, you know, something done in to propel us faster, because, you know, I run into this quite a bit, I'm trying to do something new.

 

And I can spend four hours researching it. You know, what did that cost me in time? What did that cost me taking my focus away from other things, where I could have reached out and probably hired somebody to take care of this, and be done with it and be moving on?

 

Femi  38:34

What was so interesting is, is what you're saying connects a lot of stuff that I talk about, I highlight the importance of specializing, you know, understanding what your unique gifts and unique abilities. Everybody is not good at everything like that, that doesn't pan out, you know, like, I don't do all of my social media posts.

 

But I might write the copy for it. Right? I don't I don't do all of my engagement, for example, but I might have a team that works with me on it. You know, I don't do all of my sales polls. But I might have another partner that does that for me. Why? Because there's certain things that I'm really good at that I specialize in. And I think that's what most people don't really think about. They might look at these massive other successful individuals and you're like, I want to be like them. And they try to mirror and copy everything that they're doing by themselves.

 

Right? And they end up getting a stretch with that. Yep. Right. Or they end up feeling they're not good enough and having these negative talks in their mind, but not really realizing there is a whole framework, a whole system that's established. And if you just specialize in your gift and your ability, you'll have the capital to actually outsource and things really quickly. And one thing I will share is like when you're when you're When you're looking at creating that brand or that business, and you're looking to hire people that will make things go faster, I always recommend you should still do the groundwork in the beginning to know how it works. Because I've, I've this is this is this is high level advice for anybody.

 

Like, if you have not actually spent time to understand what you want your brand to look and feel to be like that when some you hire somebody to do that for you, they're just going to make a brand, but that brand might not speak to you. So you actually have to do some of the work. So that when you put somebody in that spot, it just flows seamlessly. That is something that most people will talk about, they're like, outsource stuff, what you outsource the wrong stuff, then it's gonna cost you more money, because you don't know what you should be outsourcing. So, yeah, support is a powerful thing to speed up what you want to do, right?

 

Roy Barker  40:58

Yeah, and, you know, we talked a lot about this pre show, and, you know, just you don't have to be more personal than what you really want to be. But let's talk for a minute about trusting in ourself, listening to ourself listening to the universe. And, you know, that kind of wraps, it's, it's kind of all encompassing about, you know, knowing what we need being present, you know, an honest assessment of ourselves and where we are, but also taking that time in order to, you know, not only for the creativity, but for other things, you know, that the universe gives us to, you know, be receptive of that as well.

 

Femi  41:43

Yeah, I'll touch on that. So, like, I'm a big believer in God, and just following the path that might be outlined for you. And I think for me, you know, whatever you believe whoever, whatever guiding, there's a purpose that's usually always bigger than you, then you can see. And if you're not listening to what that path is, that's usually where you start feeling overwhelmed. That's what I've noticed, on several occasions, and I'll use the Academy, for example. Just before the Academy, I was highly overwhelmed. The business was growing.

 

But I was overwhelmed. The other business, I was getting a feeling I was supposed to do something. But I didn't take action on it. I wrote my book two years before. At that point, I've been a year and a half. But I didn't believe that I could help people with just this idea. So I was focusing on the one thing that was already successful and not listening to the other path that I was supposed to walk, down, deleted, deleted, deleted, got sick, delete, it got overwhelmed that stress gone on happen. Then dependent, literally as the pandemic hit, I couldn't operate that first business. Everything's locked down, everything shut down. I'm trusting the process of what I need to do.

 

So I'm taking time to reflect this is why I talk a lot about reflection, like reflection is not a joke. That's a part of my rituals, right? reflecting, kind of guided towards, you're supposed to turn this book into a course and I'm like, how am I gonna do this? Alright, I'm not gonna think too much about it. Launch the course, in the first four months, made, made some serious cash flow from the business. invested in another program. Four months after that broke even on that investment. Three months, I broke even on that investment. Three months after that, invested in another program broke even on that investment, literally, half the year, into this year. And this is me just trusting what I need to do. I'm helping other entrepreneurs figure out how to brand themselves how to sell themselves. Now, putting in perspective, I already was studying this stuff in university.

 

Right? I was already reading business marketing and sales books from the age of like, 1615. But I didn't focus on this. Right. I was focusing on health. 15 years later, this is actually where my special gift is. I'm literally telling people okay, how do you actually differentiate yourself in the market? Right? How are you actually communicating with your audience in a way that will attract them? Why are you focusing on this only way why you bracing your products low?

 

And you're speaking to the wrong, but this took me trusting the process to end up here. I would not have known that I would be running an academy. helping entrepreneurs generate, I had 111 of the students made 40k rev in like, two weeks. Wow. And a year before that, they were broke. That's what's crazy, like, other people that working for big corporations that are launching their businesses, right now, like I did. I'm gonna say I will this to happen. But it was a part of the process from the work that I put in from before.

 

And if you're not listening to the path, odds are as whoever's listening to this right now is probably something's gonna resonate with them, they're gonna be like, Man, that idea that I needed to do that I haven't taken action on I need to do it right now, you got to do, whether it's your health, whether it's your financial, this is spirituality, whether it's your family relationships, maybe it's an area in finance is an area in your spirituality, maybe it's an area in your family relationships, maybe it's an area, in your health, whatever it is, is going to resonate with you.

 

And you're going to be like, am I actually listening to this voice that's telling me to be better to improve myself to actually move forward? Or am I ignoring it to settle for something that's not good enough? You know, like, if I, if I ignored that voice, and didn't didn't trust my gut, and trust the process, and have faith in what was going to happen, I would still be here waiting for studios to open.

 

Roy Barker  46:26

But which is kind of another step is that we have to take that first step, we may not have all of the answers, and I'm a big proponent in not falling into analysis paralysis that, you know, we can analyze, and try to get everything perfect, before we take that step. But sometimes, if we take that step, things become much more clear. You know, it's like, I think it's part of the momentum that if you're standing still, you have no forward momentum, but you just take the first step, that second step comes naturally.

 

And so and the other part of this is, I think that you know, it, it will lead us down the path to the things that we may need to know more about, it'll say, oh, a little shortcoming here, I can do some research and learn about this. But if we'd never taken the first step, we would have never known that we need to be looking into this. And, you know, again, it can take us all different ways, we just have to be mindful of that.

 

Femi  47:28

There's two things floating in my mind that I have sharing here. So the book that I wrote is called reboot. It's called Reboot, The Path to Personal Breakthrough. Reboot The Path to Person Breakthrough here. Now, what's really interesting about it, is I wrote the book in two days. Wow. I didn't have an idea that it just No, I'm writing things down, whatever. by trusting the process.

 

I spoke the book out in two days, the entire book. Can't logically explain that. Like that's, that's trusting the process. And what's ironic is a year and a half to two years later with the academy down here. I talked a lot about this concept called operating in the invisible, right. operating in the invisible is that same territory that we talked about way of not seeing what's supposed to happen next. But you just taking that step.

 

And then the other step is shown where you got to go. Like, it's literally that level where we talked about how I launched this academy. No, I actually made revenue that I doubled revenue I made in six months, this year from last year, which is crazy. Right? Then I think this month, I'm paying myself more than I've ever paid with all my businesses crazy. This is a year in right now it's the year taking my entire family we're gonna move completely to a different place. All of this came not because I had an idea it was okay I gotta trust this process and see what happens and it just one after the other end if you're not actually choosing to follow and have bait like I was talking to one gentleman I'm gonna share this to his lead of practice the activity of trust.

 

Right, this is this is a different concept, but it's you got to practice the activity of trust not on someone else but on your selfless. Like, do I trust myself that when nine o'clock hits, I'll actually stop I did enough work. Right? Right. Do I trust myself enough to be like, Man up price one of our programs is crazy, but I'm gonna make it work. It's gonna transform my life forever. Well, I had someone else who joined the program that said, this is the first time they actually ever invested in themselves for personal development ever. their entire life.

 

So they're taking a big risk. Two weeks after they enrolled, they posted in the group, I started doing one of the activities, and I broke down crying with joy. Because I didn't realize this area of my life that I've been neglecting. That's what happens when you choose to operate in the visible when when you choose to trust yourself and just see, okay, you talked about it, we're like, if it doesn't work, I can always go back. Like, I could always do something else something something like, it's, it's an abundance mindset, but it's an abundance, action mindset. You know what I mean? It's a different spin on it. So like,

 

Roy Barker  50:47

Yeah, and it's funny, because, you know, some, sometimes we look at fate, we take failures hard. And, you know, as we should we, you know, we have to temper that how hard we take them versus really the taken a hard look at what happened. But I'll just say that, you know, there have been times that there's been a roadblock for whatever reason, and it, but it makes you turn to the left or to the right to be on a different path. And it's amazing, because we never know, at the time, we're like, why did this not happen?

 

Like I thought, we can sit and dwell on it versus just saying, you know, what, I don't know what it is, but I'm sure it's pointing me in another direction and keep that positivity. Because a lot of times, it's like, a hit a wall, that's not going to happen. And so we can just set and, you know, let that eat us up, instead of keeping moving and which gets back to some things about, you know, we call it not borrowing trouble, you know, not worrying about things in the future. And here's such a good example of this the other day, well, it's been a month or so ago now.

 

But, you know, we had a situation, and I don't usually worry a lot or stay up at night, but this thing, something was supposed to happen tomorrow. I was up at, you know, two, three in the morning thinking about it walking around pacing. And then guess what? It didn't happen. It just didn't happen the way I thought and so then it kind of makes you snicker and say, Wow, look at all that wasted time and energy, you know, putting this worry into something that never really even happen.

 

Femi  52:26

There. It's so easy. And this is where the concept of like, you got to find the thing that can give you peace. Right? And I'm so serious on this at a very high level. Like, my wife reminds me, are you stressing yourself for no reason? I'm like, Okay, I gotta slow down a little bit. Right? But it's, it's really the only thing that is valuable.

 

Right? Like, if you're not thinking about creating peace in your life, in your business, then you're probably creating chaos, somewhere like that. is literally that's like, if the business model you set up is not focused on creating peace for you. It's creating chaos. And I don't think I'm straight up I don't think there's a middle ground like there really is no middle ground. Like there's Are you striving for peace or you're striving for chaos? Like it's, it's like you can't be I'm in the middle. It may it may waver, but what are you striving for? I think that's where most people miss miss the mark, because they're like, I got to get this done.

 

I gotta go do this thing. I was playing these. I was literally on the same energy before the call. And my wife sat there with me. And she's like, you went away for a whole week. But you came back. stuff still here? Yeah. Before you left, things, were there. while you were away. Things were there. You got to have this and I know from taxes, right? Yes. Yeah. So she's like, you got to have this town mindset. You know, like this, this like, this, like laid back not city mindset. You got like, don't don't have the CD mind to be like, okay, today's whatever day.

 

Tomorrow is the next day, the weekend is here. Then tomorrow or the next day is the weekend. The next week is the week. You have time, you can still get it done. It's still going to happen. You don't need to rush and consume yourself with stress. And it's not it's not worth it. It's not worth it. Because at the end, you lose time. You lose energy, and you might very well end up losing money too.

 

Roy Barker  54:57

So yeah, and that Another investment we can talk about too, I think that, you know, investing in our education in our processes and procedures, all we need to do all that. But the other thing we can invest in ourself, and I can just speak for me alone, that when I take that time to go for a walk and exercise, I don't tend not to be as tightly wound.

And you know, when I'm getting my sleep, when I'm eating, right, drinking water, when I'm doing all the things I need to do to invest in my health, it seems to have a better outcome because things don't, you know, maybe I just don't take them as hard. But things don't seem as harsh or as, you know, as huge as like, I feel like I can take it and roll with it and overcome without it being like a, you know, a huge moment that we have to have some kind of a meltdown over.

 

Femi  55:51

You need outlets, and everybody needs outlets, and you have to look at are the things I'm doing constructive or destructive as an element. Right? You know, being human, there may be destructive aspects of your life. But how can you convert that energy to be more constructive and provide peace, freedom and not chaos, like it? I really believe if anybody wants something to take away from now is, is what you're doing in your business in life, creating chaos or peace? And it really ask yourself, do I want more chaos? Or do I want working? Some people might love chaos? That's okay. Okay, but I decide what do I want? Right and focus on that? Right?

 

Roy Barker  56:34

Well, for me, I just looked at the clock, we're running way, way over. Hi, I appreciate your time. This has been such an awesome conversation. I mean, there's just so much there, but I'm gonna let people I'm gonna let you talk for a minute, and just a minute about how people can reach out and get a hold of you. But before we do that, we've talked to them about a ton of good habits, but what is what would you rank as you know, one of your top habits, or processes or a tool, maybe even an app or something that really helps add value through your day profess professionally or personally.

 

Femi  57:09

For me, I would I would reference back to the reboot productivity planner. Right. So for years, I've used different time management systems and apps use different phones, different operating systems on the phones, and using calendar tracking, and all of these different things. And I found that I was so bogged down with completing tasks day to day, like I was literally like, I got to complete this task, I'm gonna do this task, and you just ask, and then I checked Mark 15 different tasks off of the list.

 

But then I still feel like I didn't do it. Um, and that wasn't good. I found that transition towards that and creating this planner, transformed my life. When I went away for that week, I realized I didn't write it for like 10 days, and I'm like, Wait a second, this is I need this thing to keep my mind clear. Even if I'm bolting on today, I'm focusing on them, right? Today, I'm gonna spend time to go for a walk or watch a movie or something with my family, I'm gonna go and focus on my workout out all but I do some follow ups on all of these things you can flush out in this planner and.

 

And doing it on a day to day basis has boosted my productivity and a lot of the students that we work with, so that would be the biggest thing for me. And it's transformed my life. And it's transformed my level of clarity. So if you don't have the reboot letter, right, you can grab it, you know, you know, reboot planner, calm, I read my reboot planner, complicated, get access to it there. But besides that, just having a planner and not focusing on like, task lists, like actually thinking of what is significant to me, what do I need to get done that will make me feel fulfilled, versus just having 15 items? That that's really transforming? massively?

 

Roy Barker  59:04

Yeah. And you bring up another good point? Well, we could go on forever, what but I'll say one more thing is that the other part is prioritizing that as well. Because I think it's human nature, we want to tick off the easy ones first. And then we, you know, we find ourselves at the end of the day, and we've got the one big thing that could really move the needle for us that we just didn't address. And it may be tougher, but you know, everybody has their different period of the day.

 

Some people are morning people and that's best for them to hit it somewhere in the evening. But, you know, design your day to take on those tasks, the large ones that are really going to move the needle and get that out of the way. Before we you know, do some of the more mundane things, you know, that will definitely be there tomorrow.

 

Femi  59:51

 you no matter no matter what day of the week, there's things you got to get done. Yeah, no, and I think the number one thing you need to take care of is yourself, your health and Everything else will fall into place.

 

Roy Barker  1:00:02

Make yourself number one for sure. all wrapped in me tell everybody, how can they reach out, get a hold of you tell us about how we could reach out and learn more about the Reboot X Academy. And then also you could tell us how can we reach out and get the book?

 

Femi  1:00:17

Okay, yeah, no, definitely if, if, if any of you are like, you know what I am a big fan of what you're talking about right now you can check us out at RebootX.com, that is RebootX. So R E B O O T X.com, and that is the official academy website. So it's going to rebootx.com if you want to chat with me or the team, you can definitely schedule A Better Brand audit is a better brand business audit is something that we launched not too long ago, because we realized a lot of people may have a vision of success in their mind.

 

But they don't know where their business currently is that this gives me tools and clarity that you'll either chat with me or someone else on the team one on one, just kind of deep dive into what you've been building and how you can scale it up so that you're not burning out your boss rating, and maybe even pricing your stuff at a level that gives you the freedom and flexibility you want. So rebootx.com, that will be the primary website and those that are like you know what I I'm definitely gonna book that call. But I also want to grab a copy of your book because I wrote in two days, it's kind of crazy. Just go to my reboot book.com.

 

So it's just my reboot book.com and it's free plus shipping, grab the book, it's gonna get shipped to your address, which pretty much shipping International. I think it's like $9.95 or something like that for anywhere in the US just for shipping. And then for internationals like 14 so we pay for the book, you pay for shipping the sent right to your door, you get to read the book, you can message me after you get it. But yeah, like those are probably the two things I'd say. Let's chat, go to reboot x.com. Or if you want to grab a copy of a book, just go to my reboot book.com. Those are very

 

Roy Barker  1:01:55

well thank you so much for giving up your time. I mean, that's one of the other thing we didn't really touch about touch on is, you know, time is one of the most precious assets that we all have. We can't get it back. So we do we are gracious that you took your time to come here and be with us. A lot of great lessons y'all reach out to Femi see if him and his team can help you.

 

If you need to reboot kind of get things you know, maybe if you're a little bit discombobulated or feel like there's a lot of chaos in your world. See how they can help you get back on the straight and narrow. Alright, well that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com. We're on all the major podcast platforms iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, we're not a one that you listen to reach out, be glad to add it so you can listen easier.

 

Also on all the major social media platforms probably hang out a little bit more on Instagram than anywhere else. So reach out to us there we'd be glad to have a conversation with you. Also, a video of this interview will go up when the episode goes live. So check out our YouTube channel. Until next time, take care of your health and take care of your business or take care your business and take care of yourself. Alright, thanks a lot.

www.rebootx.com

www.myrebootbook.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Effective Sales Messages Result In Increased Leads, Sales, and Profits Featuring Herbert Innocent

Messaging is a must today. It's tricky. How much is enough? How much is too much? Who are we talking to? What channels do they live on? How often should we be messaging? These are all great questions we need to be asking ourselves. What do we need to drive traffic to our site, our funnel, our podcast or wherever we need our audience to go.

About Herbert

I help virtual entrepreneurs just like you create sales messages that resonate with ideal clients, inspiriting them to buy or take action that transforms their lives.

If you really hope to attract more clients, get more bookings consistently, and land more sales often then I can definitely help you.

​I am are awesome at making your sales message click with clients and my accomplishments include:

Studied Bio-Medial Engineering at The University of Trinity College Dublin, that's when I discovered my love for creating for world-class customer experience.

Self-Taught Copywriter, because this is the absolute best way to make more sales every virtual entrepreneur needs. But it takes time to learn and master.

He's also an entrepreneur, Co-Founder of Ladybird Dynamics, an Author of Behind The Lens, and a Podcast Host. Bringing the latest from the business experts, world-leading CEOs, and TEDx speakers on the show The Virtual Entrepreneur. To Help Your Grow Your Business.

Has over 6 years of experience creating visual marketing content for other businesses and writing website copy, sales copy for a diverse business types, from services-based businesses to high tech businesses landing big businesses clients like Huawei, Tangent, and LaunchBox, just to name a few.

Has been published in the Irish Times.

He's a Long-distance runner and can be found in the outdoors enjoys traveling and meeting new people. 

​When you want to create a sales message that resonates with your ideal customers, inspiriting them to buy from you, I'm the one who can help you click with clients.

​I will definitely help you attract more clients, get more bookings consistently, and make more sales!

www.herbertmarketinghelp.com
www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Full Transcript Below

 

Effective Sales Messages Result In Increased Leads, Sales, And Profits Featuring Herbert Innocent

Mon, 7/19 3:08PM • 1:10:35

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, clients, message, talking, buy, emotions, product, entrepreneurs, ideal clients, email, questions, Herbert, communication, communicate, work, feel, action, package, podcast, learn, Effective Sales Messages

SPEAKERS

Herbert, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host, Roy, of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests that can talk about a diverse set of topics. Hopefully we can bring something to your attention that maybe you haven't thought about before, are the other thing we can do is also put people in front of you that can help you with things that are keeping you up at night.

 

So today, we've been waiting quite a while to get her on with us. So we're very happy, Herbert innocent he is. He helps virtual entrepreneurs create sales messages that resonate with their ideal clients, inspiring them to buy or take action study, he studied biomed Engineering at the University of Trinity College in Dublin. And that's when he discovered his love for creating world class customer experiences.

 

He's a self taught copywriter, an entrepreneur, co founder of ladybird dynamics and author of behind the lens, and a podcast host. He's a long distance runner, and can be found in the outdoors, enjoying travel and meeting new people. Herbert, thanks for taking time out of your day to be with us. We certainly appreciate it.

 

Herbert  00:24

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity and for having me on your show. Yeah, I'm

 

Roy Barker  01:21

gonna call you out on this long distance running that, you know, the first time I see a guy running down the street, and he's got a big smile on his face, I might take it up. But you know, so many times you see these guys, and it's like, well, do I need to pull over and help this guy? Is he gonna make it? Yeah. Well, we appreciate you being here with us today. You know, read a little bit of your story. You were in the biomedical engineering. And then you kind of I guess you've kind of discovered that you really did love working with customers and helping people create a good experience. And that that's kind of what led you to Trent's to kind of transition into the sales messaging and copywriting.

 

Herbert  02:07

Yeah, so essentially, for me, my backstory in 60 seconds, I mean, 90 seconds, let's try and see if we can make it. So my backstory 90 seconds is back in high school and with my friend, and we have an interest in using the skills we have for building technology, and engineering to help people. So we build this project, which is a door that is designed to be opened by a wristband by anybody with, you know, a physical disability, especially if they're on a wheelchair, because when your chair, when you're in a chair, you can't reach for the handle.

 

So we build this project. Long story short, it works perfect. But the problem comes when the judges pick a project that has very little impact on the quality of life of our project, as you know, as a project that deserves recognition. And for my friend and me, this is really devastating, because how can they not see the value of what we are trying to do? And so that became the starting point for what makes people choose this against this? What makes people buy here against here? Why do we vote for the people, we vote for all these questions?

 

Yeah, that's when I became very, very curiously. And that road led me to starting my own businesses and learning about businesses and learning how even a small entrepreneur and a business owner can learn a very, you know, powerful big client in the market space, really, by just utilizing the language and communicating what the prospects are looking for documented, or build a team of people who are so well, you know, advancing the expertise, but by just using those messages, so inspiring them to take action when you want them to take action, instead of just winging it.

 

Roy Barker  03:51

Yeah, that's a good point that I assume that like you were saying in the contest that you have that judges, maybe they don't do it. They don't know they do it, but I guess their bias to their experiences and their opinions it sometimes it may not mean one project is better. It's like, Oh, well, I know, have trouble with this thing. And this solves it. So then I'm going to be a little bit more biased to choose that something that kind of like, yeah, yeah,

 

Herbert  04:21

yeah, I think it's not just that, too. It's also you know, when you're talking to people, we often make this mistake of assuming they are thinking of what we are thinking we assume they are on the same page, as we are. But if you think about it, we are rarely on the same page. Right? Usually it takes an instant for someone to bring us to the page that they want us to be so we can begin the communication. Right? So for the judges, they have the rags for the judges, they didn't have anyone associated with this so they couldn't see it.

 

But for the people invested like the teachers and all this Prince and all the people who were you know who took the time to understand The story of why we were inspired by this project, they felt really hurt that we couldn't, you know, this idea this project couldn't be brought to the people who needed it, right.

 

And so I think it's that knowing that the people you're talking to, are in completely different plays the second ad, right, when you run an ad, people are so busy scrolling, watching cat videos, so you need to bring them you need to grab their attention, and then bring them to where to where you want them to be in terms of the state of mind. Right? So it's that thing there and then delivering the message once you get there. Yeah,

 

Roy Barker  05:36

you know, that's a good point. Because, you know, like me and my girlfriend, I can be sitting here all day, just cooking up with good idea, thinking hard on how we can do this different or do something better. Now, mind you, I've been sitting here thinking about this all day, you know, kind of run into Dover making some notes.

 

And then no, maybe we're sitting around eating dinner, I'm like, Hey, I got this idea. And I lay it on her. And she's like, you know? And, and I'm kind of like, come on, catch up. And, you know, it's, you have to stop and think that I've been given this a lot of thought, and she's like, I don't have any idea what you're talking about. So I think that's probably a really good idea to keep in mind when we're trying to write, say, well, when we're trying to write a message to anybody, I guess we can look at our messaging to our prospects and our current consumers.

 

But we can also think about writing it to people on our team, if they're not, you know, maybe me and you have had a long discussion about this project, and how we're going to move forward. But if the other two teammates haven't been involved in that conversation, then you know, they're, they're at a deficit of information.

 

Herbert  06:43

Mm hmm. And I think one of the things that you when you, when you're talking out it kept jumping, in my mind is this old phrase that Tony Robbins used to say, back in the day when he was, you know, teaching in seminars? I don't know if he still say that. But the phrase is that, he asked the question, why do we communicate, right?

 

And people will think there's bazillions reasons we communicate. But really, there's just one reason which was shocking to me and the audience, from what I've observed, really, there's just one reason we communicate. And the reason we communicate is to feel better. And that is the only reason we communicate, which is we communicate to feel better. So for example, if I want my customers to buy my product, it's so that I can feel better, and so that I can prove all them so that they can get the results and feel better.

 

If I'm talking to you know, my siblings, it's because I want them to do something. And that ultimately means I'll feel better. Whatever the reason, it may seem like this reasons, but the ultimate goal is to feel better. And so for us, as entrepreneurs, business owners, the question becomes, are we communicating in a way that makes us feel better in the short term as well as in the long term, but does it also make the person we are talking to feel better, because if it's not making them feel better, than the communication has failed, right?

 

And so it's when you start thinking of it, as in communication has an objective, you realize how you start to talk also changes you realize your content, your content, as well as the structure in which you want to deliver? Even I used to deliver your message using? You start differently? Because you're like, Okay, is this gonna work, because now you have a reason to give it it's a becomes a small ball that you can pass to someone else.

 

So you have to realize I have to hold it properly. So I can make sure when I throw it to you, you can catch it, otherwise, it's gonna fall down, right? So it becomes a package project that we are doing, each communication becomes a packaged project.

 

Roy Barker  08:41

Yeah. And I think talking about that making our prospect or our consumer feel better, you know, that's an important part because and, you know, I just kind of give a pro tip on soliciting podcast is that when I get an email from somebody, and all they're doing is like I, you know, I won this award, I wrote this, I did this, I did that. It kind of turns me off a little bit more than here's what I can do for your audience. I can tell them about this, walk them through this. So it sometimes we have to take that focus off of ourselves, you know, and put it on the others what we're trying to do to help them.

 

Herbert  09:19

That's absolutely, absolutely. And if you're honest, actually, you know, what you say there is really, it goes down much, much deeper. I mean, none of us like a friend who is constantly talking about them, right? I mean, if we had that friend, I'm sure we left them a long time ago. But somehow in business, we forget, we forget that we are still talking to a human right. And if it's a human, then the basic rules apply, right? Why? what interests them? How can I make them happy today? How can I deliver, you know, how can I be of service of help to them because at the end of the day, usually when we don't have something to help someone or tell someone that simple To them, we just keep quiet just

 

Roy Barker  10:03

right. Well, and when, you know, I couldn't help but cracking up just a little bit, you know, but when you're overwhelmed with cat videos, you know, trying to find a message in there to make somebody actually stop, watch, watch and look at your message. It's tough. I mean, there's a lot of noise out there not, you know, we kind of laugh at the cat videos. But there's a lot of other stuff. There's a lot of competitors of mine that are advertising and putting out the same information on the same channels. There's just every product in the world that we consume is on the internet and trying to reach the same audience. So, you know, I guess we have to keep all this in mind to try to break through that noise to get somebody to actually care. What we're saying

 

Herbert  10:51

is the thing I believe, and people are welcome to go against me on this. But I've come to a small belief that the thing we call noise is, is something we tell ourselves because we are not exactly sure of what's happening on the other end, right, we have an image, we are thinking, in our mind what's happening. But from what I've learned, because when I started my podcast, one of the biggest reason I started it was to become a student of success and enterpreneurship, to understand how the pros who have done it or doing it, and one of the things that seems to be consistent to me is that there actually isn't so much noise as if there was noise and assayed your name, even though there's so much other noise, you will hear your name somehow, right.

 

And I think even with social media, even though there's so much content, so much distractions, there is a way we can still talk to that person who is at the other end. And the best way we talk to them, is by realizing that we need to know who they are and then address them individually, even though the message is gonna go to everyone but addressing them. So I'm going to give a very good example here. So one of the things that I'm learning is that people buy emotions. And it's something that I've been knowing for a while, but people buy emotions. However, not all emotions are going to cause someone to buy.

 

Other people prioritize other emotions more than other emotions, right. So for some people, for someone who has a family, that will prioritize all those emotions that have to do with loving, caring for their children, family will become a lot higher and much more valued. And so if the information is addressing these emotions, it's much more likely to catch their attention than if it was talking about something else that has to do with fashion design and looking good. And going to clubs and meeting women, you know, this person has gone from that transition. And so what happens in social media is, I think we talk so much about the things that we want the same way.

 

You know, you get those the emails about someone talking about what they are good at what they've done, or the accomplishment. So it's everybody saying, Oh, me, or this, or my dog, or my cat, oh, this, and some of these things entertaining in a while. But the things that we want to do as business owners is what we want to take our audience from this platform and bring them to where they can take an action. And from what I'm seeing and what I'm learning, in order to do that you must first essentially change their interrupt what they're doing.

 

And the best way to interrupt them is to change their state of mind. It's to ask them a question that stops them and makes them think that they call it a hook, or change the state of mind, right, depending on who you ask different intrapreneurs cause a hook others called changing state of mind. But the idea is, if I asked you a question that has to do with a motion that you care about, then your attention immediately forgets about what you're doing. And you go back into your head and you try to answer it. But as you try to answer it, you're also curious enough, if the question is just right, you're also curious enough to click to learn more.

 

And that directs you to where, you know, I may want you to go and where you can get information and the answers. Because as humans, one of the things that drives us to act is actually we are naturally born problem solvers. From the earliest age you're trying to solve problems. And so questions means we want to answer them because we have a clue of how to solve that problem. So we jump into that and a lot of these things that we want to we want to talk later about the sales, marketing and all these. They're essentially problem solving.

 

They're inducing us questions that keeps us so curious that we buy not just for our own benefit, but also to solve a specific need, which is also buried in the idea of solving a mystery, which is you know, it's a it's a challenge. I have a challenge and I want to solve that challenge. So it's all packaged within that thing that we have that we know very basic needs, that is the need to know what's, you know, what's on the other end. And so as far as getting the attention, it's knowing that as a person, they are interested in this. And because they are interested in this, this is the message that they're going to more likely respond to, and then finding the right one.

 

Roy Barker  15:26

Yeah, I think you can even take that a little further, like all these quizzes that they have on, on LinkedIn these days, I mean, you know, it's kind of strange, because it started out, you'd see whatever now and then and now you can't even scroll through your feed without seeing it. But I can't go past that. Because I want to know the answer to that question. You know, I'm trying to figure, you know, is, is my answer in line with that?

 

So yeah, you know, very curious and, you know, I think we want to learn, I think that we want people to be interested in what we think and what we feel. And I think, to your point about, you know, families, if you notice most in the states anyway, most of our car advertisements, you know, they talk about the safety of the children and getting them to their soccer events. And, you know, it's it's way built around that they're not, they don't have a guy that's pulling a fuel injector apart, showing you how, you know.

 

How the fuel flows through it, and how many gallons per minute and, you know, they don't really get into that and think the other thing is what we buy on emotion, and then we justify it with logic. And you know, it's like, when I buy something on the internet, and then I have to explain to my girlfriend, you know, that's where the logic like, yeah, I really needed this thing.

 

Herbert  16:39

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I think you nailed it there, right? I mean, if you look, today's in ads, some of these ads don't even talk about the product, when they do it very well, they don't even show the product until the end, where they just show you the image, but all through the way, they're just building this emotion, because at the end of the day, we know what we want, we know what we resonate with. And I think for small business owners, sometimes we get trapped and try to buy ads and go about doing all these things, before we understand the basics, right?

 

And one of the things that I really want to be able to champion is to bring this knowledge of how exactly to talk to another person, especially if the client at a level that they'll understand. And the best way to go about doing that, that I've come to learn is exactly what he said, right? You but you need to find the emotions because they are the driving force. Right. And without going into too much details, that is essentially the package that I think a lot of intrapreneur is missing in terms of getting a lot of their products sales up. Yeah,

 

Roy Barker  17:49

yeah. And there's a whole lot to that. And we'll kind of start back at the beginning here in just a minute. But, you know, I think we get in such an instantaneous mode today, as we think, Hey, I sent you an email you should be by, you know, I should get a response. And I'm ready to, you know, go ahead and buy that. And I think, you know, as we go up the price of the good or service, we have to realize it takes so many touches, and we have to build that momentum.

 

But we also have to try to connect and I feel like that's something that we we miss out that people buy from people that they like people buy from people that they kind of see themself in just a little bit that they can relate to. So we have to take some time to build this. And that's means being a good listener to not always us being the one talking but asking those questions where we can get that information.

 

And you know, kind of where I'm going with that as follow up. You know, once we've messaged we we need to have some thoughtful follow up besides just, Hey, are you ready? You know, we talked last week, are you ready? I mean, I pretty much mentioned that on every show nowadays, it seems like but it we still do that even with all the experts like yourself out here, you know, with the data that says these are the things that we should do.

 

And still not doing it. But anyway, I was gonna start kind of start back at the beginning, because you said the very first thing was, we need to know who we're talking to. So, you know, we'll talk a little bit about taking that time to, you know, to build that avatar of who is our customer and Who are they? And then I think the next thing is, you know, where do they live at? do they live? Are they business people on LinkedIn? Are they housewives or grandmas may be on Pinterest. Anyway, I'll let you speak to that just a minute.

 

Herbert  19:45

Okay, so when it comes to essentially starting at the beginning, as you're saying that and who exactly you're trying to talk to and who were they, one of the things that I've come to learn one of the things that I've learned has become very, very transparent is that our ideal clients and not just one person, right. And this seems like for a lot of entrepreneurs, we make the assumption that we are talking to one client. And that's actually quite problematic.

 

For example, one of the things that I've noticed is, if you change your message just a tiny bit, you can also shift the age of who you are dressing. And a very good example of this was changing the phrasing of, you know, you know, this thing of this phrase a lot of entrepreneurs like to use, which is to leave life on our own terms, versus the phrase to leave the world a better place. Now, those two phrases attract a very different type of demographic, because the person who is thinking to leave the world a better place, the actual a much more mature.

 

And for a lot of intrapreneurs, you may use that phrase, because it doesn't seem to have anything associated with age, it just seems like a very generic phrase that a lot of people would use to, you know, to champion and cause. But one of the of the things I've come to notice is a lot of our ideal clients. And customers have a very unique identity that they associate themselves with, and certain words will resonate with them. So for example, we need one of the things that I'm seeing is that we need an avatar for the male as well as the female version, so that when you're creating content, we're also finding that now, at the beginning, it's not necessarily important to do that. But as our businesses grow, as we try to really get deep down to understand our ideal clients, we need to realize if you want to maximize opportunity, we need to address each of the individual.

 

Each of the individual personas that we have, and some companies actually go and have as much as five or six personas. Why? And I was shocked to hear that was my response was like, why would you need that. And the reason is very, very simple. So here's the reason why you'd need that people buy for a variety of reasons. Now, if you listen to Tony Robbins, or the other people in the market, Tony Robbins says we have six different needs, right. And I'm just going to name here very, very quickly.

 

And the needs are the needs for certainty, the need, and then the, which is to know, you know, what's going to happen to know we're going to be saved, no, we have security. But if we knew everything that is going to happen, we'll also be you know, very bored. So we have the need for uncertainty, which is a counterbalancing there. And then the other need we have is the need for Wow, it scared my mind just I think it's the need to feel special, what's the word for special it's been, it's a need to feel. Essentially, we have one need, which is for love and connection. And then I need to speak to a significant, that's the word also.

 

So we have the need to feel significant, which is, you know, we met her we know there are things that are important to us. And then we have on the other opposite of that is the need for love and connection, right and those balance out each other. And then the final two needs are the needs for you know, the growth, and then the need to give others. So these are all our basic needs, right. And there are many ways we attain them. But when we go to the subject of communicating with ideal clients, by the way, one of the few things that I've learned Quick Quick note for any intrapreneurs are very curious, people will pay more to feel significant than any of the other needs.

 

Now, when I learned that I learned that in photography, but I've come to verified in a in listening to other intrapreneurs It was like I saw that in photography, why would people price a certain way for different things. So the more you make, anyway, that's a topic for a different type of idea is that could be used as a strategy for business on its own there. So if you want to position and target a specific audience who value significance over every other emotion, then that's something that for entrepreneurs that will consider.

 

Now, those are the six needs from Tony Robbins point of view well from the other marketers, the other needs, why we buy is the need for hygiene, the need for to save money to make money, you know, to to feel to up our social status, and then to to have better health and then there's all these other needs as well as you know, to essentially, there's always a need but they all link back into those six needs those six needs. And the reason why I talk about and address this is because for each of the people we sell to some people may value saving money more than making money.

 

Right and therefore your message if you want to talk to somebody who wants to save more money, it needs to be different than though if you're talking to someone who want to save more money versus making more money because the person who wants to make more money. Actually, the chances are they already have that money, you'll notice that the people who have money don't really care so much about saving it as much as making more of it. So that's a different mindset completely. And so if you're talking to a person about saving more money, if well, their concern is making more money, you're missing them already.

 

So for them, your message is noisier. For them, your message is just this useless ad. Now I've try and figure a way to get rid of it, right. And so the same with if someone wants significance versus love and connection from, you know, family, friends and their kids, they want to spend more time with their children during the weekend. And so your message, if it's talking to someone who wants more significant will be very different, someone who wants now as, as a business owner way to incorporate some of these to some degree.

 

But at the same time, we need to be conscious that at some point, when you're targeting in our ads, when you're writing content, to try and get people from social media and all these other platforms, we need to narrow it down. So that we are taking very specific people Otherwise, the cost of us getting to them becomes very, very high as we tried to reach for everybody, and then Miss of, you know, all those people that we want to get to. So this is one of the few things that I'm learning. And it's quite powerful to actually see it in action from all these different platforms. And

 

Roy Barker  26:24

you mentioned about the feeling significant, and it's not like we have a little place that we go out and eat all the time. It's the lady that owns its own debt forever, you know, we've been going for years. And so when we walk in course, we know people, you know, they treat us, I mean, it's just going out to eat, but still, it feels special that they talk to you and have a conversation, we tend to get, you know, really good service and things like that.

 

So you know, to me, as even though, you know, money is always an object, no matter what you're doing. It's always you know, that balance between, you know, do I just want to go for the very cheapest thing, or do I want to go to that place that, you know, they provide that experience where you do feel valued.

 

Herbert  27:12

Absolutely. And for most of us, we always choose, also for most of us. So there's this thing. So we'll also choose something that's has a little bit of certainty and familiarity, but a little bit of unexpectedness. So we might choose to go to this exact same place, but decide to order some a different dish, because this is going to be there, you know, the uncertainty part, whereas the experience is already confirmed.

 

And so that becomes our safety net, for where to go to. So there's all these things that are really playing trick in communication. And one final piece that I really wanted to wrap it up in terms of our ideal clients, and ideal customer is, when you're communicating with them, one of the biggest thing that I've noticed is they also communicate differently, this is one thing that I'm noticing, and that is, for some of them, they would prefer much more visual information.

 

And so if I was talking to a visual customer, I need to be able to make a lot of visual gestures, addressing they're much more likely, you know, pointing out to visual information. Whereas if they were much more, if they preferred listening or editorial method of communication, I need to take my time and explain that, you know, these all these basic steps, learn my tone, making sure my message sinks. And then if they prefer a kinesthetic, which I think is touch, then I think that's fits into the auditorium.

 

So there's visual in this auditorium, and then this, this kinesthetic, and I think with kinesthetic, it goes a level deeper. Now, this may not fit so much well into into the realm of the the, what he calls, the online platforms, because you know, it's touch. And it's all these things. But there are elements that contribute to that. I think that's the word I'm trying to use there.

 

So there are elements that contribute to that. And there are words that really addresses because they're more concrete, if you can use concrete example. So when we say I'm going to give you a testimonial, that's a very concrete example. So that speaks to the type of person who wants to kinesthetic kind of communication in a way. And so there is all these things that you want to use. And so to be to be conscious of because we addressing all these different types. And so for a lot of business owner, we don't we sometimes go without thinking. We just think it's one person but it's rather different people.

 

Roy Barker  29:34

Yeah, because I'm thinking, the price, the value, the price, that significance. Also, other a couple other things that you mentioned, I'm thinking well, the type of message, the wording, some of those also kind of break down across age groups. If we are target, you know, if our product is mostly by older people then the wordage that we use, versus You know, maybe if it's a younger crowd.

 

But then I think the complication becomes if you sell a product that spans young and old, you have to really tweak that message for that, you know, for that audience, and again, where they live, you know, if maybe you run one thing on Tick tock, and then you're putting something else on Pinterest, or, you know, Instagram, I'm visual. So I like the pictures. And you know, I'm not trying to read something today. And it was about, you know, two screens long. And after I got through the first screen, I'm like, yeah, I'm just done with this. I can't.

 

Herbert  30:37

Yeah, I know that theory. I know that. And you notice as well also, for the audio, people that prefer to go towards the new social media platforms like clubhouse and go to other platforms like this podcast, right? Because that's where they can get a lot of auditory information digested better. So yeah, you definitely, you're nailing it down in terms of saying, we need to be able to do this. And one thing I've noticed is, for some businesses, they go as far as creating completely two different separate landing pages on their website, to try and make sure that their channel in that because there is a very high bounce rate, if the message doesn't resonate with the person coming on. So to target that, you know, they'll create two very specific, they may target men, women may target younger, older just to balance things out.

 

Roy Barker  31:28

Okay. So then, once we kind of get that the you know, the audience and even if we have multiple personas, once we kind of figure that out, what's that next step to really drive that message to that particular audience group?

 

Herbert  31:43

Yeah, so one of the things that I've noticed is that is the structure for creating the message, right. But it's also the outcome of what we want at the end of this message, right? Because this message, we need to look at the message as a product as a package. product, which is, and if it's a package, if it's a packaged product, if you want it to be well delivered and received, then we need to make sure that they're going to get value out of it, it's going to communicate to them. And the outcome is going to be a positive outcome, which is, you know, to make everyone feel good at the end of the, at the end of the message.

 

And so there is a framework that I use, and I'm just going to share it here that I've seen it work. And I've just kind of borrowed it from learning a few bits of this, and then I piece it together. And the frame I use is called bill the bills day was and Bill is my ideal customer avatar that I have named. And when I say Bill's day was and then I tried to imagine I'm having a very short interview with Bill at the end of the day at the end of his working hour. And I'm sitting down in a Muslim, how was your day? I'm asking him, you know, what was the most frustrating thing? What did you do? What was your goal? And how did that make you feel?

 

And what are you looking for now? Right? And these are very specific questions that helped in terms of creating content. But if you're using it for sales, you know, there's all those sales qualifications questions. And it's a similar process, because in a sales qualification process, what you're doing is, especially if it's a sales call, what you're doing is you're actually asking the client is questions. This is an interview, we sit within a client and ask them so you know, at the moment, are you what is your business focused on? Right? You asking them?

 

Okay, and how many salespeople do you have? And how much is the client worth to you? And what's the biggest problem? And how much is this problem costing you per year or per month, or per week, and then from there, all you use this information to assess how you can help them and how you can close them. Notice, the intent is to close them to give them a solution, which is to make them feel good, right and to make you feel good.

 

And so in this process for creating content that I use is the exact same thing, nothing new, just a few different phrases and different types of questions. But the idea why I say that, first is because so now you know who your ideal avatar is. The next thing is you want to package the message addressed to them? What are the most important questions you need to answer so that the message will get delivered to them right?

 

Now, knowing the agenda and age may seem important, but there are words that you can use that can bypass all that right? your ideal clients probably cares about a few things that are much more important to them, what are those things emotions, what are those emotions they want to feel from your product, right? And so, and these emotions, ideally should also be at, you know, at the bottom of your description of your product, so my product does x, it does x for you, so you can get this benefit. And this benefit means to you is you'll be able to do this right and that last piece there, the meaning of what this product means today Is the emotion part.

 

And so when you're creating content, you're packaging it. But it also has to have the emotion of what? This message this product because the product, the message is the product, what is it going to do for them? So I'm noticing the best of our speakers are so good at packaging information as a product, we don't even feel it, we don't even realize it. And when they say do this, now, you do it so effectively, because they've given you a gift and you feel it, but you don't understand how come? How did you feel so and this is sales letter, right? It makes you feel so good. You take out your credit card and vote for the product.

 

So it's the whole process of packaging that message. And the way you package is, what I'm seeing is I'm saying you need to first grab the attention at the very top and how you how you grab attention, is you ask them a question that forces them to go back into their mind and become this detective who is now curious about what's going to happen next. And once you have that attention, you want to extend it by essentially showing very quickly establishing a rapport. And the way to do that is by talking about something that they care about, right? Because if they care about this, and you're talking to them about this, then they're gonna pay a bit more attention.

 

But and then from there on, we can go on to the messaging, and trying to make the messaging but also keep now without going too much technical, because there's a few more steps involved. But on the on the highlight top, the top view top bottom, how do you What's the word? bird's eye view? Yeah, so that from the bird's eye view, if you're looking down at the messaging, essentially, you're gonna see, you're going to be trying to get them to commit, make a little commitment. So agree to few things that you both agree to. So for example, you know, so this was, you know, this is obviously a problem for you. Yes, it is. And it's costing you a lot of money.

 

Oh, yes, it is costing me a lot of money. So if this if we solve this, that means the problem will be going away, and we want to make more money? Oh, yes, absolutely. So you're getting them to commit to agree you're getting them to, you know, to move along, you're getting them to make those will take those little actions. And so when it comes to asking them, okay, so I want you to do this, so we can move to the next step. They want to be too sheltered. What are you talking about? The they'll be like, okay, it makes sense, you know, all this made sense.

 

So let's go to the next step. And all these have different mechanisms, right, and the mechanism is a big word. But essentially, there's a process for doing of these. And for us, as entrepreneurs, we don't have to become creative geniuses, right? The processes are the same, we have used them, since we first got really good at talking, they've just evolved a little bit, but they're the same building blocks, whether you're selling a car, a house, a car, a country, a speech to inspire people, you know, that's how, you know, whatever it is that you're selling these similar building blocks, they may use different language words, maybe even employ different meanings because you want a different outcome.

 

But the process that goes is similar, you know, you're talking to the brain, and the brain is structured in a way that understands message in three different stages, right? First, the emotion, then the How to and then the watch, right. And I think Simon synnex book is really good in terms of giving you an overview on how to look at how the structure works, then there's other information that helps you break it down. So that's the kind of summary there so you want to structure it in a way that is deliverable to the human biology, the mind that we wish that we have, because otherwise it doesn't get delivered.

 

Roy Barker  38:41

Yeah, and it sounds kind of like, you know, in back in the day, the sum of the sales process when you're face to face, as you always want to lead your customer your prospect down the path by I think it was, you want to ask questions that you know that they're going to answer yes to three different times. Because once they get used to answering yes, then when you say, Great, now it's time to buy? Yes, you know, you've got them in that rhythm. It's kind of what they what they used to say about that?

 

Herbert  39:09

Yeah, I think they call that initial commitment. They say if you want someone to help you to do something, you need to first ask them to do a small initial commitment so that when it comes to ask for a bigger commitment, it doesn't seem like too far of a stretch. And this actually goes even in dating, right? I mean, you don't just go to someone and say, could you marry me from the first day you see them? Right? You start with you know, hey, you want to grab a cup of coffee, tea and drink in a bar some it's something small. And then actually, you can even go back. even stop saying hello, right? And then you get that response and then instead of building up from there,

 

Roy Barker  39:47

so let's talk about the the call to action because I think that's a place that a lot of people end up leaving, either they leave it off or it's not firm enough and it's So I guess I would, I would imagine that it's one of those things that you don't want to be too abrasive and too in your face, but you have to be firm enough that somebody would want to actually do what you're asking them to do.

 

Herbert  40:14

Yeah, and I think, from what I've noticed, from what I've seen is, I think the call to action, it depends on who you're talking to. And it depends on the language that your company is using, right? Because one of the things that I've noticed is, most news, talk about shocking, things that are happening, crisis, things that, you know, there's a terminator outside, there's all these, everything you hear in the news is never small, it's always over magnified, it's, it's so magnified to make you want to jump off your seat.

 

It's never something so simple, so small, you know, something happened, like, it's never that much, right. And so, for them, whenever they ask you to do something, they say tune in to find out more. And when you watch this, now, they may not say anything shocking, but before they say tune in to find out more at six or 789, they said something else, right? They gave you a preview of what you're going to find out. And it's something shocking already. Right? So you, they may not be very aggressive in saying, you know, this is what you need to do.

 

But they already gave you something that hooks you in your emotion so deeply, you want to sit down and know what happens next. Right? Right. And so when it comes to call to action, it really is as flexible as the message you gave them. So if your message is you want them to opt into your newsletter, right? You've given them a free book to download. So the call to action might just be enter your email here, right?

 

And then it will that will send it to so that's kind of pre recorded, I think it's pre call to action. I think that has actually its own name, I forgot it's on him. But then at the bottom of that you have the call to action, which is the button and then on that you might say, you know, send this, email me the booklet or the ebook, send me the ebook, or, you know, email me the ebook. So there's a lot of different choices. But it really depends on what you did before that, right because you pre framed them, and then you send it to them.

 

So I think for the call to action, one of the key things that we have to be so conscious of is to be as very specific as possible, because you don't want to leave it too vague, right, you just want to tell them, this is your next step. And that's it. And then if you leave it there, like there shouldn't be any other steps after that, unless it's really emphasized, that was the last step. So that for the clients, they know this is because our world in the online space is just too it's just flat, right? So the isn't this where as if you if it was in the shop, you tell them, You point at something.

 

You use a lot of these other gestures, you can ask them for a credit card, it's much easier for them to see your physical body language to know what to do next. But in the online space, UI, you just have word so you just have to be very mindful of saying. So, you know, this is what I want you to do next. Or you can say, by the way, if you want this, then check out this. So you can re emphasize that by just having by just talking about the thing that they want before you tell them what to do. And then your call to action doesn't have to be too direct. It can be you know, check this out or learn more here or click this button. But either Oh, it depends on who you're communicating to as well.

 

Roy Barker  43:40

Yeah, yeah, we need to make sure like you said, we need to set them up, lead them down the path to where they're ready to do it. But also, I think that, you know, offering something of value makes that call to action, you know, especially if we're talking about getting an email address or something like that. It just makes it easier if we, you know, have something to give to people.

 

Herbert  44:02

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And here is where I think this really fully emphasizes the theme is that the point I mentioned earlier, you remember I mentioned that in our communication is actually a product needs to be packaged. And for some people, they'll ask you to opt in so you can get information, right. And in some cases, they'll also just say, if you want this, if you want to learn more, then click here.

 

Now, the person clicking the just bought, what you told them that they want, right? And so we need to be conscious that when you're writing for clients, when you're writing for a prospect, you're writing for customers, why do we say that information is actually a product in on its own on its own? And if you can use that effectively. It may be the thing that we are giving our clients when we want them to take action and it's also quite works very effectively. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  44:54

So the other part is links because it's to me as As a non writer, writer on trying to write stuff, you know, it's like, okay, I can keep this short. But I don't give you a lot of information or I can like, give you way too much information overload. And I understand that the product or the service, audio, you know, there's a lot of variables that go into that. But, you know, if we're writing off, if we're sending an email to a prospect, what is the, you know, kind of an average length? What is something that we want to shoot for?

 

Herbert  45:28

I think, the simplest, there's simply a message, the better. This is actually something that I've learned. And I personally used to think I need to explain them a lot. But actually, if you do you confuse them, the more you try to say, the more you confuse them, especially when you're writing with an intent for them to take action, you just want to give them the necessary information to take the next action, because they will get distracted, there is so many things, we don't know how much of the attention we have in the first place.

 

And even if we have it, we don't know how long we can maintain it. Right? For even for people who claim they love reading, we are going to be honest and say most of us skim through when we are reading, right? And so when we are trying to send a message in email, and it is, the quicker the shorter, we can package it, the better because if it's shorter than there is no, the chances of miscommunications are greatly reduced or even eliminated.

 

Right. And one particular thing that I've learned is, depending on what your purpose, the purpose of the communication is, you may realize that what you want to do is you want to tell them who you are. So you know who you are, what you do, why should they care? And what should they do next, right? And then once you've told them those things, they're like, oh, okay, so this is a person I opt in to, they've given me this leaflet, they're asking if I got some value with it. And if I want to get more value should click this link.

 

Okay, done deal. That's it. And so it really comes down to packaging you it's a product, right? So if there's no need for any necessary material inside the product, just packaged as in once you have this robot to do the next action. So what is the outcome, as long as you know, the outcome is structure, we structure everything to make sure that, okay, you're gonna read this, we're gonna take the outcome, unless if it's content for entertainment, then in that case, it also is a product, but the product becomes it is its own product at the end of that there is no action, right? So at the end of the day, they're like, Oh, that was nice. That was informative. And that's that.

 

Roy Barker  47:38

Yeah, I guess if it's a complicated problem, you know, something I've seen in the past is, you make it multi step, you get them to commit to that next step. And then you give them more information, if they're in that way, it kind of lets you gauge, are they truly interested in invested before you start spending more time and so we can structure it to do you know, two step three step? not overly complicated, but just to help lead them down that path? And then if you know, somebody has made it through three steps, you obviously know that they're pretty interested?

 

Herbert  48:10

Yeah, yeah. And another thing is, sometimes, even though it's 234 steps, each of those steps could be leading to one thing. And each step will also be taken it's as its own package, right? Because for us, we tend to think we need to know how to do all of these. But the beauty about business is it has existed for so long, a lot of these things have been processed. And whatever you're trying to do, there is a version of it already in existence, if you can find it, that's really good. So if it comes to emails, there are many types of emails that we can send out.

 

But they really come down to emails that we want them, to thank them, we want them to buy a product, we want them to know a certain information of an upcoming event or something that happened. And then I can't think of much more than that, really. And if it's just three categories, then that means we can query they we can take the already existing formulas and use them. We may not say the exact same word, but we can structure them in a similar way. For example, a follow up email, those would be emails that are structured to keep following up automatically, to drive them to our website to go and buy.

 

This is a thank you email asking for testimonial. And that, you know, a thank you email back. Thank you so much for using our product. We are glad you really enjoyed just three quick question. Can you tell us how did you find x? What did you get out of x? And would you recommend X to a person? Right? And then that's it. You've got a surfer testimonial.

 

So there's all these other things that we can try and do which will be a lot of stuff really, they can try and do but at the end of the day, if our goal is to feel good, if we are conscious of in what way we want what we want them to do next, then it becomes so simplified. It's actually it's quite relieving. You don't have to be creative to do it, because there's already structures in place you can use.

 

Roy Barker  50:06

Yeah. So the other thing is the timing and frequency. Again, a lot of variables I know, but just on average, like, how often do we want if we're taking a multi step approach? How often do we want to, you know, reach out? Because I know that some, there's some that reach out way too much. And there's some that I don't hear from enough. So what do you think about that?

 

Herbert  50:32

From what I've seen, I learned this phrase from someone, I think Katherine Morris, he said his mentor once tell them, if you didn't send an email today, or if a plane left, and they didn't fill it up with a seat, there's nothing they can do to ever fill up that opportunity again, right. And so, um, the phrasing I'm using isn't correct, because it's been a while since I've used the phrase. So it's a little bit faded. But essentially, for our emails, that's actually an opportunity to time send an email is an opportunity, right? Now, for some people, they'll say this is too much.

 

And for some people, they will say this is too little. And I would argue that if you have something important to give them if you can structure your email so that every time they're opening it, they feel good. I doubt somebody will say you made me feel good, too much. Yeah, I think when they say this is too much, what they're really saying is, those messages don't are not there, there's a miscommunication, right?

 

Because if the communication is achieved, if the communication is achieved, that means they felt good, that means you delivered the package completely to them. So from what I'm saying, from what I'm seeing is, some people will complain too much some people want, but I think really, if those who are complaining, they just didn't get the package that you send them, right. And for those who are saying, some people are actually okay with one email per day, every single day, and that will shock you. But it really comes down to how well you deliver.

 

Because if you really nail down your customer avatar, and if all your messages are designed to make them feel good to help them, then I don't think we are willing to turn down how they actually would save them and bookmark them, put them in a folder and label them. So it really goes down to show how much are you thinking about your avatar and your messaging versus how much of it is you? Right?

 

Because how much of that really speaks to if you can nail down your avatar. And if it's very, very niche, then all those people saying this is too much people who are outside, right, they opt in because something clicked, but it's not necessary for them. But so maybe you want to do there is going to be create a filter system, I've seen people where they will create a very complicated strategy to filter out clients, right, because there's also this idea of having products, then if back end products, then you have the back end offers.

 

So like three stages like the middle, and then the back end offers. And when you structuring it like that, what happens is you get a lot of people for the front end products. But as you send emails they buy, some of them will go on to the next middle, the middle ground products, right the middle offers and they'll buy those, but then the final even more, and then we'll get those who buy the back end product.

 

And what happens is from what I'm seeing is that those who go at the very end, that means they survived all those emails you've sent them. Not only they survived them, but they thrived. They took the opportunity and the chance they saw that as their way out, they got so much value, they went all the way and purchase the most expensive thing you can sell them. Right. And so that means your messages were targeted towards those while everybody else there resonated enough, but not to the degree that they can get to the very end, if that makes sense.

 

Roy Barker  53:57

Yes, yeah. No, no, no, I understand. Yeah. All right. We have went ran way long. I certainly do appreciate your time. But is there any closing tips or any other thing? I know, a lot more we could talk about anything else you want to put out there before we start wrapping up?

 

Herbert  54:15

Yeah, so I think I think we've focused a lot on the sales messaging and how we can use this. And one of the things that we didn't touch is how this comes down to the team, right? And I think when you're creating our messages, sometimes we forget why we are trying what we're trying to do we get focused on the sale, and then we forget, now bring it back to if we resonate if we create a message that resonates with our clients, it can also resonate with our team, it also attract a team that believes what we do, because if you're speaking to those core emotions, the team will say me too. Right?

 

And so one thing that I've noticed is when you find a team, that the messaging is resonating with them, not only are they going to know Not only are they willing to work harder to to be able to take this forward because it speaks so much to their core. But they're also going to be much more inspired to do more to be, you know, more caring. for them. They're not even doing for the business anymore. It's their own, you know, their own product now, right, it's something that they want to make their own. And for entrepreneurs, I think when we struggle to build teams, we need to go back to the drawing board and ask ourselves, okay, why am I doing this?

 

And that question is actually quite important. Because the funny thing is, the reason why our clients buy is very similar to the reason why we are selling because somewhere along the line, we had a problem. And when we overcame that problem, we found a solution. And now we want to sell the solution we found. So for a lot of entrepreneurs, that's what we're doing. We're trying to sell something that we found a long time ago, this solution that we think works so well, we believe it, because it was a product that we found that resonated with us.

 

And so going back to those emotions becomes the key thing that we have in common between our teams, and our client. And that becomes a community of its own, in a sense. So I think as a pro tip is, you know, when you're creating a message, ask yourself, why, and then ask yourself, how does it benefit? And then ask yourself, what should the clients do next?

 

Roy Barker  56:17

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, when we talk about teams communication, I think it's taken for granted, I don't know why we went through a phase of I don't really need to explain it to you, I just told you to go do this. But it's, it's kind of disingenuous and disengages, I think, because I use an example of back in the day, you know, used to, when I work for a utility, there was a certain way that we we had these, they were three gloves, it was an inner liner, a rubber glove and an external glove, they had to go back into their container, the exact in a, in a very specific manner in order to preserve the integrity of them.

 

And so, and it was a safety violation. Now for about two, three years, when I had to take mine out and use them, I could never get them back in the way they were, I couldn't even figure it out. So I had a guy that I worked with, I'd been there for years, and he would do it for me. Well, finally, somebody sat me down and explained the Why have you do the certain thing. And from that day forward, it was never a question in my mind, and I take that approach with the teams, you know.

 

With teams that I work with, is it's important to get to the why, why we're doing this, how it benefits you the company, and then also listen to feedback, because the other thing I've, you know, figured out too, is that I may be trying to convince you of something or get you to do something that's just totally not doable, or totally out of the realm of what we need or want to do. And so instead of you just being like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show him I'm, like, I'll do that. And it really has no value. It's just have this communication, it doesn't take that long. And I think that we've kind of missed that over the last few years for some reason.

 

Herbert  58:07

Yeah, I think we have too much become too much too focused on. I think, this get rich, quick, so fast, that we are so focused on the products that we think, get a lot of people into the next phase, because people buy products. In fact, if you lower the price, low enough, they buy. And we think that's the strategy. And from what I'm seeing, I think the strategy goes back to a human as a problem. And that problem is an emotional or a physical problem, right?

 

So by solving the end end, even though it's physical, it still hurts the emotional, and that's the only reason why they buy, you know, to feel good, right? And buying on its own, in essence is like a communication to ourselves to feel better. Right? Yeah. But yeah, so that's what I've seen. That's what I've been. I've been learning and that so far, I think just implementing those few things, from what I've seen, really dramatically improves. And the results. Yeah, right. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  59:06

Yeah. All right, Herbert. Well, thank you so much. Before we get out of here, a couple questions. What is something a habit or a tool that you use every day in your life professional or personal that you feel like really adds a lot of value?

 

Herbert  59:22

I use a lot of tools. I use a lot of tools. But I think one of the biggest tools that I think a lot of entrepreneurs can never substitute is a pen and paper. Now those are two tools. I apologize in advance. It's a pen and a paper, pen and pen and paper. And the reason why I chose those over all the other tools is technology is great. It's really wonderful. I can communicate to people across the ocean like you over there.

 

And I think that's just magical in some sense. And this is a guy coming from an engineering background. So you must understand that really mean. But the reason why I chose a pen and a paper is, I've come to realize that as intrapreneurs some of the best ideas we have, we write them down on paper, some of the biggest things that we have done, have come came from us writing down on a paper, and then communicating them and then building them. But that's not that's not the only thing.

 

But also, it's the opportunity for us to document what we do as fast as we can as efficient so we can keep keep moving on. But the real reason why I chose those is because if we want to dream bigger, if you want to dream further, we need to get to the habit of writing down are dreams, or goals and a piece of paper so that every single day, we can allow our mind to dream bigger. And this is something that I'm learning from a lot of entrepreneurs who have achieved two really, really big goals, they say the first thing they did was write down their goals, new goals every single day, twice a day for some of them.

 

And I think for entrepreneurs I've been writing for a very long time. But to see that a lot of people say that it's an important to just goes on to say paper is here to stay. And so it's a pattern. So I think those are the best tools I can pick.

 

Roy Barker  1:01:10

Yeah, and I've tried for years to journal and just have had trouble being consistent. And then I don't know about six months ago, something switch then I've been pretty consistent about every day, you know, I read at least a page. And it's, it's also kind of cathartic to get thoughts out there. If it was a bad day, it's like, you know, let's get it out and get it over with or even if it was a good day, you know, you can kind of celebrate.

 

So I think that's a great idea. And for me, personally, you know, I've tried electronic and I've tried paper, and paper just seems to be much more personal, I guess then, because I've got one speak to you do it on the computer on the you know, on your phone, you can just talk into it. And I try to keep up with the events through the day like that. But then at night, you know, that's kind of like how I get all my thoughts out and kind of settled down for the night is just to put it down on pen and paper. So yeah, great advice. Great. And I like that the papers here to stay is

 

Herbert  1:02:19

I think it's here to stay. I love not books, I love low notebooks. I try and collect them whenever I can. I just think they're the greatest thing we have, you know, journaling.

 

Roy Barker  1:02:29

Yeah, well not keep, we can't see it. But I always had notes notebook of, you know, our interviews and questions and things and, you know, keep them for posterity. I don't know, my kids will probably never look through them. But who knows, maybe one day they'll be like, Hey, this is what I did. Yeah, history right here. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. All right, Herbert. Well, thanks again for your time. So tell everybody, first off, who do you like to work with? How can you help them? And then how can they reach out and get a hold of you?

 

Herbert  1:03:01

Okay, so I love working with entrepreneurs who see their business as something that can really bring meaning to themselves into their lives, and you know, into their family lives and into their community. And the reason why I chose those words is because for a lot of us entrepreneurs, sometimes we start a business without knowing what you're trying to do. And I love helping entrepreneurs who may not know what to do, but that's what they have in their mind that they see their business as a tool, rather than as the end goal, right.

 

And so, I love working with consultant agents, as well as coaches in helping the business so they can communicate that message, the ideal clients and some of the value that some of my clients are saying, you know, they come so frustrated, because of being unable and the value is in the order of 12,000 per client. And I was just like, wow, I really should find a way to get even more into air for them. And the reason why I really love this is because when you communicate very well, there's an opportunity to make your clients so happy that you build that long term relationship. And I think in business, you want that long term relationships, because it saves you money in terms of acquiring a client. For a lot of entrepreneurs.

 

They don't realize this, but it costs money to acquire new clients. And then when you're starting a business, you may not know that, but it's a cost of acquisition. And so building those long term clients for entrepreneurs won't do that. Those are who I want to work with. And the way I help them is there are three steps and the first step is essentially assess or audit their processes for sales copy, but as well as for lead generation lead conversion.

 

Okay. And then step two is essentially we sit down and then we do some consultation or advisory on what could be improved. What are the areas estimating the values and the gains from what we could get As I said, for one of my clients, the gains turned out to be 12,000 280,000 per client, which was like, wow, like, we have to improve. And then from there, the third help that I can help with my client is implementation of those, right.

 

So now that we have the processes and the copywriting, we can implement it into the right places so that you don't have ever visited. And then we can just keep testing, finding and fine tuning to the point where when you speak to your clients, you get those clients was like, Yes, you know, I've got the product, I want it. Because I don't want someone to feel the way I felt when I did when I had some projects so important to people. But I didn't have messaging that could bring them to the people, right.

 

So I want to help them getting that messaging and structure in place, so that it effectively get to them. And one way, of course, of getting in touch with me is through my website, just going there. And then there's my email address, which is so my website is Herbert Marketing Help.com. And there, there's my email, or they can just email me directly at Contact @ Herbert Marketing Help.com. And I know it sounds very wordy, that is Contact @ Herbert Marketing Help.com. And that is H E R B E R T Marketing Help.com.

 

And I'll be happy to just even sit down with you, and then walk you through what you have in place, and then just give you some feedback, so that you can see, okay, this is not for me, this is for me. But the idea is really just getting that perspective, are you thinking in the right way in the right direction that you want to go? Because that on its own, can really help you give you a different perspective of where your business could go?

 

Roy Barker  1:06:46

Yeah. And I'll be sure and include all of the, the the website and the email in the show notes as well. And so but yeah, before we get away, tell us a little bit about a couple things Behind The Lens as a book that you've authored, and then also your podcast, where could they find that?

 

Herbert  1:07:06

So my podcast is available on all the channels like apple, iTunes, iTunes, Spotify, and all these lovely, wonderful channel and I publish episodes every day. And the show is essentially focused on giving tips to entrepreneurs on how they can take their businesses to the next level. And these are tips that I'm learning from the marketplace, and I bring them in every day, as much as I can. And then so they can find that there. And then they can subscribe to that.

 

Or if they have questions about specific episode and I talk heavily on how to target your ideal audience, I give you all the BS, I break it down, I'm not, I'm not holding back. So if you want to learn how to really target and narrow down your ideal clients, I break it down all of it in detail over there. And then the next step is in terms of the behind the lens that was actually a photography book. And that was a project for for myself when I was first learning.

 

And then you know, trying to understand how exactly that as you know, this communication, but also, how do we go about bringing our service. So I was trying to help photographer understand what I'm teaching you now. So I've refined it a little bit more into because my background also came from photography, I started as a corporate photographer to understand how do I actually help clients?

 

Because with photography, it's a creative profession. But how do you exactly help them? What do they buy? And you'd be surprised they don't buy photos, they'll pay really handsomely for something else that is in the photo. And it's an emotion even though their businesses are selling too. So that was a cool thing of weather. So the My book is available on Amazon. Okay, and it's behind the lens. It's available on Amazon. If you want a link, I can send a link to go and get it directly.

 

Roy Barker  1:08:55

Yeah, that'd be great. What's the name of the podcast?

 

Herbert  1:08:57

You're so the podcast is the Virtual Entrepreneur. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, that's the full name over there. And then the book is I forgot the full name, but it's behind the lens. And that I'll give you the link to the four knee.

 

Roy Barker  1:09:13

Okay. Yeah, no, that's great. Appreciate it. That is awesome. Thank you. It's been a pleasure speaking with you, y'all go check out this podcast because I think you can learn a lot. There's been a lot of great tips. You know, the thing is, is a lot of information that we learned today and so if you weren't taking notes, of course, go over and subscribe to that podcast.

 

That way you can get these little daily tips and tricks and learn to, you know, be a better writer, we I think we can all speak from a non writer, writer perspective, you know, we can be more concise, we can get our message out there. And, you know, we can really increase our sales and our engagement, you know, even if we're right to our current clients as well. So that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast, of course. I am your host Roy you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com we are on all the major podcast platforms iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify or not on one that you listened to you reach out I'd be glad to add.

We're also on all the major social media networks probably hang out a little bit more on Instagram than any other. And a video of this interview will go up when the episode goes live as well. So go over and check that out. Until next time, that's going to do it for us. Take care of yourself and take care of your business.

 

www.herbertmarketinghelp.com
www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Stop Doubting Yourself And Make It Happen With Astounding Confidence Featuring Rachel Chung

Life can be tough even for those with a lot of self-confidence. It's tough to keep that positive attitude. We can continue to doubt ourselves and our decisions. In order to reach our full potential, we must continue to remain energized. Find a way to push down that self-doubt and just make it happen. Use your confidence to keep your energy levels up.

About Rachel

Rachel Chung is an ICF-qualified Confidence & High-Performance Coach. And she is the founder of Essence by Rachel Chung. 

Rachel’s mission is...

Through mindset mastery, personality profiling and personal brand image consulting with 8 years experience...

She helps the online-serviced based female solo entrepreneurs at the start-up stage to overcome procrastination challenged by self-doubt, fear and perfectionism. So they can kickstart and keep thriving in their business with the highest productivity and absolute confidence as their best self. ;-)

To fulfill the mission...

Essence by Rachel Chung is focusing on ‘YOU’ with A-Z 100% personal touching support…

Inside this community…

You can learn how to build your core confidence from inside to outside…

With hands-on support from experts and a well-structured system.  And this is a fun interactive and safely respected environment for you. You will explore your potential to a new reality…

With all-in-one & One-stop full transformation.

During your joyful journey here…

You will also discover the Instant applying and Instant long-lasting achievement as well~

Essence by Rachel Chung has helped women Stop Doubting and Start Believing… 

So they can create a long-lasting impact with their business worldwide confidently.

“Stop Doubting Yourself, Start Believing Yourself!”

www.rachelchung.com.au
www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Full Transcript Below

Stop Doubting Yourself And Make It Happen With Astounding Confidence Featuring Rachel Chung

Sun, 7/18 5:07PM • 42:04

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, business, confidence, coach, important, focus, stuck, startup, marketing, day, helped, starting, rachel, mindset, point, part, good, journey, patient, confident

SPEAKERS

Rachel, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:07

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host, Roy. We are the podcast of course that brings you a wide variety of guests that talk about a diverse set of topics. We always want to try to present issues that maybe people are unaware of, or present solutions that may help your business but we also like to put you people in front of you that if you have a problem keeping you up at night, they can definitely provide a solution and today is no different.

 

We're happy to have Rachel Chung. She is an ICF qualified confidence and high performance coach. She is the founder of Essence by Rachel Chung. Rachel's mission is through mindset mastery, personality profiling, and personal brand image consulting with eight years experience. She helps the online service base Female Solo entrepreneurs at the startup stage to overcome procrastination, challenged by self doubt, fear and perfectionism, so they can kickstart and keep thriving in their business with the highest productivity and absolute confidence as their best self.

 

To fulfill this mission essence by Rachel Chung is focusing on you with a to z 100% personal touch touching support. Inside this community, you can learn how to build your core confidence from inside out, with hands on support from experts and well structured systems. At and this is a fun, interactive and safe respected environment for you.

 

You will explore your potential to new reality with all in one and one stop full transformation. nearing your joyful journey here you will also discover the instant applying an instant long-lasting achievement as well essence by Rachel Chung has helped women stop doubting and start believing so they can create a long lasting impact with their business worldwide. confidential confidence. Stop doubting yourself, start believing in yourself. Rachel, thank you so much for taking time out of your day to join us. We certainly appreciate it.

 

Rachel  02:18

Thank you. So it's really an honor to be here as a guest. Right? Thank you so much.

 

Roy Barker  02:23

Before we jump into this, this is also important, you know, that confidence factor? Because I'm just going to tell you, honestly, you know, we're challenged with that every day, no matter how long if you've been in business for one day, or for 10 years. There's always something but before we jump into that, tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you find yourself coaching and helping women?

 

Rachel  02:45

Yeah, I think to talk about that, well, maybe it's better to share my story. It's kind of awkward personal story. So maybe you probably gonna be peekaboo like guests know my accent. So I'm originally from Korea, South Korea, but I'm lucky in Melbourne, Australia now. It's been exactly six years so far. So as just you share about me and then my background, and my business back in Korea was personal brand image casting and with a personal profiling. Then when I come here, and to be honest, I came here with a purpose.

 

Yeah, so Coco's. And then I was okay with a lot of hope, a lot of optimistic mind. And I come here always, life is not exactly as we expected. Right? always very rare. Very rare. And then as he shocked me because I come here, yes, I proposed I hope and I always always wanted to help people. And and then Okay, let's continue my journey because he was a part of Cisco back in Korea. Okay, let me continue. And I opened a launch it and I think first year, totally, exactly four to six months is really really, really hard. And of course, and then my business totally fail and give a lot of lessons but that time was our only hard is God and, and then because I've known for really constant always know what I'm doing so people already knows what you're doing.

 

Yeah, she was good. And my sub conference was absolutely high, he must have asked me when I came and everyone reject whenever I did, like I get proper, reject, reject, reject, because that time I didn't have any friends. I didn't have any proper papular to keep moving for and then I didn't have a business or like experience, work experience, nor reference nothing than that. So I think I was actually baby here and no one actually care and no one actually trust me. And that's not last year was a really strong but a lot and and after that, nearly two up to two to three years and then I was stuck and they keep trying.

 

And they just not backup try. And then at some stage actually nearly gave off really, really gave up. And then because our brains and totally burn out, and this is impossible can move forward, I think I can't think of any any fruit at all. And they probably, and my mom and dad, like got my mom to come back. That's kind of Korea was the point there. And I was really in dilemma about but I think that time, I just like I only try so many. And that's how I try one more time, one last time. And ask that one last time actually, who still helped me a lot.

 

And then that was my turning point. And actually, okay, it's time to actually awake because he was kind of the failure, it was also some part of my problem. I wasn't like God, focusing what I can do, and what I'm good at. And then actually, I guess I care about who I'm gonna be helped, but I think more like what I can do first. So okay, I really deep into the Australian culture and because I'm here, and what actually can combine to actually make you work. And that's how I found out like, God, okay, what I can do, and then that time as, as founders, the castle, the life coaching, okay, that's aligned my purpose there online, to prove what people want. Now people want and then I think, okay, so I'm gonna be stuck this one.

 

And then the time starting from that, two years intensive, intensive coaching, like God training intensive, I thought the answer the master degree was so intense. And then after that, finally, finally, I qualified for last year, and then, okay, it's time to do start new. And it's, I'm ready, because I always made me the whole back end people actually want for me was actual qualifications because they want to see because when they see that they can see through me because I know this is another country, they first start is an Asia look young.

 

And then they just like, Can I can I trust her? So I think to overcome that part is called proper qualification. So since then, okay, out of the glass coaching, what I'm good, who I can help that, okay, confidence. 80s? Yes, that's I was, how can people spot on, and then people after every coaching or even just a cage, you're talking people are really motivated, I feel really confident, I think I can do that.

 

So okay, that's confidence, actually people through me and I'm good at. And then I thought that confidence is not enough. So what I adding on is confidence for me was because I love everything practical and tangible. And then out of the out that so I chose fourth language cost effective and instant. Okay, how can I actually help them to not abstract away a more tangible way, then I add in a high performance because they can live with not only confidence, but actually they doing? They achieving? So that through the journey, and up and down. And finally, I found a fair path? What actually I can be in? So that was my journey. And

 

Roy Barker  08:14

and, you know, we talked about this a lot with helping others is that you've been through this. And, you know, it sounded like that you had a few years there where you struggled. So who better to help the next person than somebody that's actually been there lived through it. And the lessons that you've learned, I mean, it's tough. And, you know, don't get me wrong. It's, it's, it's sad, you had to go through that. But on the other side, is that look at all this valuable life lessons that you have learned and be able to help other people? For me, there's nothing better than being able to take those lessons and and, you know, help other people maybe not have to go through that. That's

 

Rachel  08:57

true. Yes. Actually, that's a really great way to flip the angle, right? Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  09:02

Yeah. Because confidence, it's, you know, it's big. And I think that I suspect from what I hear from others that, you know, it's even a little bit more difficult in women because, you know, they tend to be held back and not as respected as experts a lot, you know, not like men and so they stepping out on their own there can be a definite confidence factor plus they're usually responsible for the kids and you know, everything else that happens so just that time commitment as well.

 

Rachel  09:36

Exactly. I think a woman is up sometimes it's not her type or just like, kind of physically and mentally we actually can't change some part right we bone sometimes the woman is a naturally have a more modern nature, because we're gonna have a baby and we're going to look after that compared to the men. I think it's kind of fact is our modern nature, we have a more higher than in that Which means is Mother Nature Mac OS, we want to willing to help more people look after more people, which means you want to please be promoted.

 

That's what I think a lot of people are in the people pleaser side. And that's what I've been through too. Yeah. And then see, I'm working on that part. And that's why I've been such the perspective and such connect our instinct, make us actually put others first than us, which means we are more likely, if you're going to be a bit negative is that we're going to keep comparing ourselves to others, which is kicking our low self confidence, low self esteem, because we're gonna doubting ourselves limiting belief. And the Archons comes once.

 

So that's why I think it's really important, starting from our Where are we actually facing that part? And then starting from there, we can just work in our confidence, because a lot of people now I'm not, I'm not, but it is not. Yeah. So I think if we accept the fact is a fact. And then from that, we can just identify how can we actually overcome that part? To be more confident? Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  11:05

Yeah, a couple of points that you made there, comparing ourselves to others. You know, it's, it's hard not to do that for anybody. But we just have to stay in our own lane, and we have to run our own race. And that's gotten a lot more. I've gotten where I use that a lot more, because I think it's, you know, we have to have like the blinders on. Because social media can present so much information that we don't even know if it's true or not, but we see this person that achieved this or has this unless we know them for, you know, we know them personally, and we know that that happened.

 

But we see so much false information, and then it makes us feel bad about ourselves. Because it's like, well, why can't I achieve that? Why don't I have this? Why don't I have that? Where if we focus on our own lane? And then the other thing that you said I think about that was the nurturing part about tendon to take on too much. And it's hard. But you know, we all have to learn to say no, to things that don't further our goals. And that's not selfish.

 

Rachel  12:15

No, no, because that's actually a good point to even including myself, after the like a caring myself and saying, No, actually, after the very selfish, but our staff care selfish, like people, and even including myself, but as soon as you get a really good point, because we are not boned, yes, we are going to be in a perfect, we are going to be our best and better. And then always our main character in our life, it should be us because without the main character in the movie in drama, how can we be gonna be keep going? How the drama going and going?

 

And that's impossible. That's why always we put ourselves first and people think, oh, that's not the kind of person know that that's a negative thing. That's the first thing because without you How can Ferghana we have other people who you want to help. So so that's the it's kind of paradox. So always, it's okay, looking after yourself and more energy and their moral capacity, then you can have more people. So kind of this is not negative net minus minus game, this actual plus plus game. Then they says, OK, then starting the awaring. And I challenge them.

 

And just now you are just thinking what if, but also now making just don't start in the future and guessing just the Triforce mega project and experience, then we can discuss further. How was it it was really bad as expected? What actually nothing really much were actually he was actually more positive.

 

Roy Barker  13:49

Exactly. Yeah. And I think you also mentioned I read in, in your bio, and the lead in was about perfection. And that's again, something that tends to strike all of us is, we think that everything has to be perfect. And we can we call it analysis paralysis. Sometimes we can get so hung up thinking about how can I make this perfect, it's not perfect that we end up not doing anything instead of just doing and learning as we go.

 

Rachel  14:23

I see one online like girl kind of role model and the heart model, or whenever her slogan her say is stop dreaming. Start doing. Yes. And I really liked that because like even I was I was a dreamer always on. I want to do I want to do that one and then I'll worry. And then always I was stuck. I was a people pleaser. That's all I care the people. I was scared of fear of judgment. They made me perfectionism. What if other people like that, and this is like a negative cycle actually made me stuck and then just only dreaming.

 

And as he says that actually when you actually put a To Action reaction, normally things different. And actually, you says that actually we met a failure. But actually we learn valuable things from there, and the death make us much better. So that's, I think, so. So do and then we just learn something and then better and then do because that's progress. So progress is better than any perfectionism. So that's actually I want to say we want if you and you're stuck, and you just delay only learning, and they just don't put action, then it's time to actually take action. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  15:34

When we, if we, if we get started, and we start and we listen to feedback from others, we know which areas to grow. Because you know, what I've done, honestly, in my past is, there was an area that I was kind of iffy about and was focused on. And then once you get the product or service out there, you realize that people don't care about that they care about this other point that you didn't even think about. So, again, you know, we put it out there. And we're always growing and always kind of tweaking what we're doing, always have will have a better outcome.

 

Rachel  16:12

Because I think that's a great point. And I also the same same, like experience after the Okay, I really worry about what if people don't like it, forget about it just do. And suddenly I ended up like that, and people actually liked it. And suddenly free debate about some people, like some part I never thought of as he did, and Oh, actually, no matter if you're going to be exposure, if I'm going to put out there no matter what, what I'm getting is everything is learning everything in the back. And actually, the only thing I'm gonna get is a feedback and better improvement. So that's really good.

 

Roy Barker  16:50

Yeah, and so you you've kind of also added, you know, working with this confidence factor, but you also work with startups to to kind of help them overcome this, the procrastination, the fear. And so, you know, what are some things that you do? If you if somebody comes to you and they're struggling a little bit in business, what are some steps that you generally take to help them out?

 

Rachel  17:15

I think the startup stage I think I found all over the face, some people great growth, escapes growth stage, some people scale stage, now startup stage, I think, don't those days, you people most not confident, and that always stuck most, and then really with unclarity and then less focus, I think after the start up. And at the same time, not many actual support out there. Because I asked around why other coach fellows and I said, We start off actually, they are don't know what they want to do. And they actually so many things to hands on.

 

So it's actually even when coaches too much. So even though they at the end, they never really gain that much the impactive like really impactful changes after coaching because as a coach, I get it. And we want to like a really transformation in like really, really powerful transformation. But when we do start up because there's so many things to do untangle. That's why it's has done so many help and support, like base, especially base in Australia nominee support out there. So that's why starting started that targeting for this talk because mainly my main so main purpose for my business was Yes, generating revenue and like a profit is important. But first cons is actually happening because that made me help it. Anyway.

 

So So startup is out, I think the very first one they are really, really, really stuck in perfectionism and their self doubt. And because they are scared, because they are stuck in zero whenever we starting zero to one is the hardest and scariest. Because after we starting something, it's a call on the happening dollar got momentum. So we keep doing. So like whenever we do go to the gym, and the force today and just put our stuff the intention is the hardest. Or when you get there, we felt good. We fed all sweating, and they look good and more muscles, things popping more and keep going keep going make momentum.

 

So between zero to one is a really scary thing, even though just a one difference, but Allah stuck in there. So what I'm doing is very first one is we all know we all know, man, this is a important mindset because this is our fundamental. What I found also is every aware montazah is important, but when actually when they're building or working inside of business, they think they're more focusing actually business tactics, skills, and then like a marketing stuff. I tell students absolutely proton to their part, but also monster is important. So people actually Yes, it's important but not actually working on under estimated that time or maybe later.

 

I know So and then that's why I think CSL but really looking to your monitors and working on because most confidence problem comes from mindset, which is we talk about professionalism, we talk about fear of judgment, fear of failure, we talk about self doubt. And all this on actually First comes first treat appointees from mind sets. So without a clearing the mind block, and I went, What I found is added a better test and then added Oh, the front monitor first and then the something else. And then mind is a different they were not tested, actually, yes, it cannot approve itself. So monitoring it first, then people are gonna be like a sort of like a digest whatever I'm talking with them and coach with them. The monitor said, that's very first part I'm gonna do.

 

And I'm not talking about everything, I'm not touching everything, I always say them focus. So out of everything was the biggest number one, number one. And after that I just so we clear the list that biggest mind block. And still we have energy and courage to keep moving forward. Next one. And then after that, I think is telling because the people most likely stuck in professionalism. So especially woman wise, and then I think, okay, justify shared, we're not going to be perfect, we are going to be just a better and best side of us. So which means is let's focus really on you. And we're going to find the best part of you.

 

And to do that, to do that I using the my personal profiling, because through the personality profiling method, we can actually have some guidance and have a more focus on your end and more Data Wise analysis, and what's your strength, and what what made you more encouraged. And out of that I focus on Choose the one most resonate with you and I call this one signature strength. So we're going to have a signature strength. So no matter what no other people are gonna say to you why even you're going to doubt yourself, always back to this one, telling yourself as a mantra, you have a signature strength in this, you can be better and best, at least with this one, no matter other people saying to you, no matter you're going to be discouraged yourself.

 

And then they're going to be okay, getting more slightly more confident, okay, because they're gonna let the deleter clear their biggest mind block and they have a one clear clear clear signal strength they can focus on and next one is because for my motto, and for my business is I really like a balance. Which image is selected in our in our nature, when when nature thrived more and then when actual plant is more vibrant with eating and like dark side breast size or like a harmony, right? Same thing.

 

So it's keeping that exact analogy but what I'm saying is balance is for me is really important even for conference so somebody's mindset is actually work great. But some point if you are not confident our excellent exposure to others, we have a some point to shaking shake by that swung by that so we just need to work both sides as same time. So we just cleared our manpower for internships are getting better getting good for constant and I says that because as our status this day, not sure how can they're constantly show up as an expert constantly shine in front of people.

 

So at least I can then Okay, looking about let's work in external confidence, then I'm gonna be working with them with the personal brand image casting, because our startup is highly likely they are brand they are brand on beat that to represent their business. Okay, so and then I'm going to find out based on their sense of strength, let's the analysis what what do you have for you externally? And then how can we show and then share with the year seeing strengths present the best way, then they're gonna be just, just internally they see into strengths, they're confident, but actually, they present it to others. And then they're gonna be actually people are gonna be get that message.

 

And they're gonna be good feedback, complement. And then we also from there confident, more. So now internal, external, both confident. So in the end, finally, what I'm doing is, if we're gonna be live like them, they not doing the action, they just say yes, it's all interesting. Yes, I feel more confident. And then they're gonna be because now we are finishing fully transformation because without action, that's not transformation.

 

So and after that, what I have done is, okay, now it's time to plan is 90 day plan, including launching their business, and then what they can do so utilizing all we learned, and then after that, we're gonna be actually practice with that one and the day extra step to action, then they're gonna be actually higher performers in that they actually the feedback from that. So that's the whole journey I helped my client and people need my help in terms of the startup stage.

 

Roy Barker  25:12

And that's great, because he mentioned some things, you know, the mindset, it's very important for our confidence because, and it also ties in to the why I think it's, you know, as I've aged, understand more the importance of the why we do something, it helps our mindset, I think, if we believe in what we do, and then we know that we can either help others in some manner and be successful, it helps us take those setbacks that help, you know, the daily setbacks, it really helps us to overcome those if we have the very strong why, and then we have a very strong mindset about what we're going to do and what we need to do to be successful.

 

Exactly. Yeah. And I think also, you mentioned the clarity part that, you know, we can get so stretched in, in business, because you know, especially being a solopreneur, or, you know, a brand new startup, we may not have a lot of resources. So, you know, we're trying to keep the books, we're trying to do client work. Trying to do marketing, we're trying to do sales, we're trying to do all of these things, but we have to put them in order, you know.

 

What is the most important, we need to get our message clear and concise, you know, work on those type of things, because it's challenging, and success is linear, and just not straight, you know, start at the bottom left and go up to the top right. It's just there's this jagad line that, you know, we have some really good days, and we have some not so good days, we just have to find a way to survive the not good days, and, you know, get back to those good days.

 

Rachel  26:55

Exactly. I think what I found is, especially at the startup stage, we are stuck in Dodge, like we are facing shiny object syndrome. So because we don't we, we don't have another clarity, like you said, and let's, let's try that one all day, we're working well seems like a district, this one, this marketing, and that one, and that one, and that one, and just like a too much, right? And that's always like that. So we know what you are good. And what you want, who you want to help from the or personalize the conference, personalize the step by step, because we found a cylinder strength. And then already when we know, we know, what makes us discouraged what you want.

 

So whenever we decide make like a distant time, okay, this one is a doesn't sit, like it doesn't align and that this is not aligned my signature strength, my brand, and asking I don't feel this is gonna be make me more motivated. And that's not work. And very clear. And, and then on top of the action, we know, so clear, who we want to help with, and the my target market gonna be they're not. So they're going to be unwritten, that we get not. So everything's, everything just comes to clear. So I think we can focus one at a time, and then just the only focus will be one bridge first to like, a across from where we are to the way we want to be. And then we're gonna keep living under the bridge and time.

 

Roy Barker  28:20

Yeah, cuz we can, you know, like you said, we can. And I've seen this in marketing with somebody places and ads on Facebook, you know, they put 50 $60 there and run an ad for a day or two, whatever. And then it's like, Ah, that didn't work. So we're moving to, you know, this other, you know, moving to Instagram, and then Google and then Twitter. And instead of, you know, I guess, developing a plan, you know, what is our marketing plan?

 

We need and we also need to be patient, you know, again, this, you know, starting a business, being an entrepreneur, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And so we have to realize, if we do something today, and we have success tomorrow, we're probably pretty lucky. But as you know, you talked in yourself that you know, it can be a six months, a year, two years to see results. We have to put seeds out there and take care of those seeds to see them, you know, harvested eventually.

 

Rachel  29:22

Because I love your analogy. Yes, we are like a farmer. Yeah, yeah. Because I'll it's impossible next day, just all trees out there for today are fruit there. It's impossible to see there. Right. So I think you got a really good point too, because I found the patience because I actually was was impatient myself. So that's why pay if you were not patient, we're not going to be persistent and we're not going to positive that we're going to give up so very good point patient, like a seed with the water and get the fertilizer there and they get loving them and the patient and they personally keep Doing it and then positive, which is fruit cannot come to pick up. Yeah, that's a really important part,

 

Roy Barker  30:06

you know, because, again, I love social media. And I think it has a great part in our life and in our business, but there are negative aspects of it is that, you know, we see, I don't know, john smith, we see him on Instagram now. And he's very successful. And we think, well, we, we didn't know this guy yesterday. Now he's successful, he's an overnight success. But we don't know that this guy has been working, you know, 510 years, you know, toiling away, whatever his craft or product is getting better and better every day, he just now came to the top.

 

And so I think the drawback of this digital age is I feel like that we are all somewhat impatient, you know, we want to put an ad out there on Google today. And then tomorrow, we expect the phone or email to be, you know, flooded with people like, Oh, my gosh, I've been waiting for you to put the ad up so I can buy from you. And it's just, it just typically, it doesn't work that way. If it does for you, then you're very, very lucky.

 

And you need to count your blessings. But, you know, Brian, you got to eat. And this gets back to the why. And mindset for me is that you're going to have to come in and grind this out every day, every day, come in and do the basics. There's no secret tip or secret trick. It's just gets back to the basics, but executing them every day.

 

Rachel  31:30

Exactly. I think that's also a good point to kalasa when I was like learning from other marketing part and then expert and then what he said is nowadays, a lot of people tried all different kind of marketing, try marketing because they think other people what their own working for other people, because we again, comparing some people with their marketing suddenly 00 to like a 50 cat mass. So okay, I'm not for that one. But I think what he said is best marketing said his basic principle.

 

So that's why you for like 30 days, 30 years before 20 years before some walking the principal and basic classic things actually work now. So I think don't just jumping everything like oh, this isn't working. Okay, this is a term or temporary, no guarantee. So I think what you share is really important. And other thing, one thing I like is what you said is the success like oh, we are not here to the success isn't that sprint is marathon.

 

And then I think I want on top of the for me, I always tell the people share what success means and success isn't a sprint, but for me is that pace store. So what I mean by that is I think we're gonna keep like sprint is compared to the when we win, right? And actually, we get there to destination we are drained. And then we have absolutely no energy left to even after the another journey. And then we're just after drank too tired.

 

And then two bits we didn't ever actually enjoy at all, because only focusing Ronaldo remember not to win. But if you're going to be actually Marsan also like step paces true. We actually in our pace, we are actually enjoying the each journey. And then when you get there, we still 50% energy left so we can start on a success journey. No as is this important.

 

Roy Barker  33:23

Yeah. And you mentioned that, I think kind of building on what you just said, as you mentioned balance. And you said that's very important to you in your life. But I think it's important. As you said, if we have balance, we can enjoy the journey. We're not always just focused on the end goal because what I've found is that when people are only focused on the end, when they get there, it's an empty when it's not, they're not fulfilled because they've let everything go in between and, you know, you find I think that relationships are important. We have to take time for ourselves personally.

 

You know, like you talked about that you mentioned the gym earlier and that's something that it's the first thing that goes for me when I get busy. I let that go but I feel so much better when I have the bounce of going to the gym. I get more done in my working hours than I do when I let it go.

 

Rachel  34:19

exactly see I think though because we balance actually focusing ourselves and our pets actually we're going to enjoy much more we can go farther. Yeah, I think that's a really everything women. Yeah,

 

Roy Barker  34:30

yeah. Yeah, for sure. Rachel, thank you so much for being with us today. Is there anything any other points that you want to leave us with before we start wrapping up?

 

Rachel  34:42

Pretty much all good. Oh, maybe doesn't want lasting. Okay, so we just default balance is important. And before we I really just talk about being young, I just as an analogy, and I want everyone to know because we also talk about patients important. Yes, patients important which means is when you have a dark side. And when you're gonna practice side, not and die, when you call easiest together, actually the life is better nature is more prospering. So your business journey, even though you're stuck in probably dark side now, but be patient, because right sides are coming. And when actually you face the one, you're gonna attend to your dark side, because you're gonna learn, you're gonna improve more.

 

Roy Barker  35:25

And I think we enjoy it, it's kind of the weird thing about being an entrepreneur doing stuff is that the struggles that we have are the dark side, when we're in that dark side, when we get to the light, it makes us appreciate what we have much more. And I think, you know, that's an important part of life, for me is that gratitude that even on my very worst day, I have still got so much to be thankful for. And, you know, like, my priests, he has a saying that, you know, our mind is always grinding.

 

And we can choose what it grinds. We can choose to grind positive or negative. And I think that's very powerful that if we choose to focus on the negative, we will get more negative, where if we focus on the positive, we tend to get more positive. Yes, totally. Right. Yeah, like that. Yeah. All right. Well, um, do you have a habit? Or do you have a tool that you use in your daily life, either personal or professional that you feel like adds a lot of value?

 

Rachel  36:30

A few done every morning. I think a lot of people doing they went like a morning yoga and meditation. But I think out of all that, my favorite is two things. The first one is the at the end of the day, I think I just thank you diary. So everyone know, like ready to January. But I like thank you diary. So I just feel like I like lecturing, because I like a don't take a long time. So five, everyday five things, I just want to thank to myself, thank you to my today.

 

And as I was writing, and they're just like really aware, actually today likely says no matter. It was a harsh day. I think this one I'm happy and grateful. And the other thing is I like mono my habit, and my hobby is like a brush calligraphy. So with the color together, because actually, it kind of made me more calmer. And then I think when you do adding the color because the color has some allergy, right? As Okay, I doesn't really because I also started chemotherapy. So okay, this color I like today, and I'm drawn to Okay, what I'm missing, okay, I can just like a neutral perspective, or I need to do this working on more. So I think these two actually helped me a lot to get and help. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  37:45

I've never been big on meditation or journaling. I've tried journaling for years, and I just, you know, do it a little bit and quit. But probably the last six or eight months, I have found that the meditation, the first thing in the day, and then the last thing, it just number one, it clears your mind to start your day. But also it clears your mind, where I seem to have restful sleep and not always thinking about things. So it's, that's huge.

 

And then the, the journaling has been good. I just have to make I don't have to as much now. But in the beginning, I just had to make time to do it. But it's great. It's it writing is very cathartic for most people just to get their thoughts out. And then when we can be grateful in that it's even better. So those are two awesome ones. appreciate you sharing with us. Okay, so tell us this, who do you like to work with? How can you help them? And then of course, how can people reach out and get a hold of you?

 

Rachel  38:45

Okay, so who I want to work with is very first one, I like people ready to action. Because I'm never here to the dreamers, I'm here to very serious about step out of their comfort zone. So that's number one, I will who I want to work with, because then we can actually really make the correct transformation in the end. So that's number one. And then other than if anyone, like you're at the startup stage, and then you are small entrepreneur, and you really really need to have about their confidence. And I'm right here to help you.

 

So I'm all like all the juicy like strategy and for your time to really work in time actually waiting for you so you can reach out to me how you can reach out to me is first is my business name the Roy's introduced before at Essence by Rachel Chung. So you can just start the search me LinkedIn as the Instagram, Facebook and there so you can just simply contact to me. And then we can start from the point we can just not discuss border, and then I'm open to any discipline to just chit chat with me. And then just against clarity, I'm open to this to coffee.

 

So we can have a short 30 minute chat. And then we can do and then other than, and then just keep an eye on my website, my social media, which is my website doesn't reach it and back into you. And then there's upcoming workshops because I'm regularly doing workshop and Facebook Live and summits and just you can just help people to join whichever you would like it.

 

Roy Barker  40:23

Yeah, great. And we'll be sure and put all that in the show notes and on the website, so they can find you easily. But thank you so much for sharing. We certainly appreciate it. And I just can't even express enough about, you know, this what a coach can provide, because we have, a lot of people don't realize the value, but we have these sports teams that have very talented individuals that make a lot of money. But guess what, there's always a coach.

 

Not a lot of them have the coach of the team, but they also have personal coaches that help them stay in shape. And I think it can be good for a lot of things getting you on the right path, but also keeping us there sometimes. You know, even if we have the best laid plans, sometimes we try to veer off path and if we have somebody that we can believe in and that we have trust in and have that conversation makes it much easier to keep us keep us on the straight and narrow. So y'all reach out to Rachel, see how she can help you and thank you again for being here. Certainly do appreciate it. that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast.

Of course, I'm your host Roy, you can find us at on all the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, we're not in a one that you listened to please reach out I'd be glad to add that one on. You can also find us at www.thebusinessof businesspodcast.com. We're on all the major social media platforms probably hang out a little bit more on Instagram than most. And a video of this interview will go up when the episode goes live on our YouTube channel. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.

 

www.rachelchung.com.au
www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Funding 101: Actionable Advice For Astute Investors and Ambitious Early Stage Startups Featuring Hall T. Martin

Whether you are a seasoned investor or a novice. An early state startup or mature business needing a capital infusion. Hall T. Martin provides a wealth of information in the latest episode of The Business of Business Podcast

About Hall

Hall T. Martin is the Founder and CEO of TEN Capital and Host of the Investor Connect podcast program

He launched the firm as the Texas Entrepreneur Networks in 2009.  Today, TEN Capital has over 12,000 investors in its network, and has helped startups raise over $900M.

Mr. Martin serves as the Vice-Chair of the Baylor Angel Network.  He previously led the Central Texas Angel Network (CTAN) as its first Executive Director.

Mr. Martin is the Host of the Investor Connect podcast program. He is the founder and director of Investor Connect which is a 501(c)3 non-profit dedicated to the education of startup investors. 

Mr. Martin is a Founder and initial Managing Director of SKU (Incubation Station), a consumer product goods accelerator based in Austin, Texas, and the former Managing Director of AccelerateNFC, an accelerator based in Dallas, Texas, focusing on Near Field Communication.

Mr. Martin serves as an adjunct professor for the University of Texas leading the Idea to IP program which fosters startups from the engineering program.

 

www.tencapital.group
[email protected]
Twitter @hallt

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/halltmartin/

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Full Transcript Below

Funding 101: Actionable Advice For Astute Investors and Ambitious Early Stage Startups Featuring Hall T. Martin

Sun, 7/18 2:32PM • 38:01

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

investors, people, vcs, crowdfunding, startups, founder, product, angels, raise, angel, market, money, investor, invest, company, valuation, funding, austin, business, consumer product goods

SPEAKERS

Hall, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:03

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests that speak to a lot of diverse topics. Today is no different. We're excited and been waiting quite a couple months here to get Hall T. Martin on the show.

 

And I do appreciate all the patience in this. But Hall is the founder and CEO of TEN capital and host of the Investor Connect podcast. He launched the firm as the Texas Entrepreneur Networks in 2009. Today, TEN Capital has over 12,000 investors in its network and has helped startups raise over $900 million. Mr. Martin serves as the vice chairman of the Baylor Angel Network, and he previously led the Central Texas Angel Network (CTAN) as its first Executive Director. Mr. Martin is also host of the investor Connect podcast. He is the founder and director of Investor Connect, which is a 501 (c) 3 non-profit dedicated to the education of startup investors.

 

He is also the founder and initial marketing, excuse me, Managing Director of SKU (Incubation Station), a consumer product goods accelerator based in Austin, Texas, and the former Managing Director of Accelerate NFC, an accelerator based in Dallas, Texas focused on near field communication. Mr. Martin also serves as an adjunct professor at the University of Texas leading the idea to IP program which fosters startups from the engineering program. Hall, Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to be with us. I certainly do appreciate it.

 

Hall  01:47

Great, Roy, thanks for having me here. Looking forward to our discussion.

 

Roy Barker  01:50

You bet. So what is led you? You know, I guess what is your background? And kind of what how did you find yourself in this position? What led you to, I guess, be be an investor and want to help others grow their businesses through the accelerators and everything else?

 

Hall  02:06

Sure. Well, I've always been an early stage startup guy, and I went to work for a company in Austin, back in 1986. And then they went IPO in 1995. And I started doing angel investing after that, had a lot of fun with it made have made an investment in an Austin company and probably lost all my money and discovered it's harder than it looks and But still, like the early stage. And then we had an angel network in Austin called the Capitol Network that ran from 1995 to 2002.

 

And then they were tied to the dot com world. And when that went away, they went away with it. And so we didn't have a group 2006, the city did a restart. And they called it the central Texas Angel Network. And I said, I want to be a part of that. So I was the first member to sign up. And when you're the first member to join, you're automatically on the board in charge of membership, and it's a great honor. No pay was great honor.

 

So we did that. And after a couple of months, we lost our director. So I became the director and I led it for the first two years, we got about, you know, 50 members recruited 5 million vested in 20 deals, and we got a we ended up getting a 40x return out of two deals. So it turned out to be a great win and propelled it forward. did my undergrad Baylor in Baylor University in Waco wanted an Angel Network. So I helped them set it up. And I'm still a member there. And then Wayne County one an Angel Network.

 

So I just had a lot of fun putting these Angel networks together. And so 2009 I started the Texas Entrepreneurs Network to help startups connect with investors because I saw that the challenge they had in getting introductions and doing the process and over the years just kept growing the network of investors from just within Texas to across the country, not only angels, but now venture capital and family offices and started doing our program on a national scale in 2017, when we changed the name to TEN capital, and been going ever since I just like early stage companies. And I like working with investors and startups.

 

Roy Barker  04:00

Yeah, I mean, that's an exciting place to be I mean, I'm sure that you even if you don't invest in them, I'm sure you get to see a lot of great products and services that come across your desk in the very early stages.

 

Hall  04:12

Absolutely seal, see all the new technologies, see the new businesses coming up. And it's great to see companies grow and mature over time and, and help them as well love love to mentor and network with startups and founders to help them succeed.

 

Roy Barker  04:28

So funding companies, you know, we don't want to take a whole lot of time, but I think for some of us novices, maybe you could just explain some of the different you know, we have, you could just go to the bank and get a loan, usually backed by the SBA, but then we have angel investing, venture capitalists, and then crowdfunding has become a much bigger player on the streaming but can you just kind of give us a little brief description of all of those different vehicles of investment?

 

Hall  04:59

Sure. You So when you get an SBA loan, you're primarily taking on debt, and you have to pay it back. And once you pay it back, you're done. And then there's some businesses that are higher value, maybe higher growth rates more scalable, and they can be sold for a nice amount of money. So those go into the venture world, which are led by angel investors, people investing their own money, or venture capital, which are people that are running funds, where they're investing other people's money into it.

 

And they're taking equity, they're not taking debt they're putting money in because we're trying to make this business as big as possible to sell it in five to seven years as a target to make a good payout for the founders, as well as all of the investors as well. And so we've been working into those models for many years, and the angel groups I started were in that dinner club model in 2006, seven and eight, where 4050 investors come together, they look at a deal, they decide to invest in it, and then they're, they're on the equity side of it.

 

And then then along comes crowdfunding early on crowdfunding was to Kickstarter, Indiegogo was where it was just rewards and prepayment weren't really getting a stake, you were just pre paying for the product, which is a form of crowdfunding. And then now we have what's called reg CF or title three crowdfunding, where you're actually getting an equity stake, and anybody can invest not just accredited investors, like the angels and the VCs were, but anybody can put money in average investment today is around $500 per investor.

 

At that rate, you can get quite a few people. It's all online, the crowdfunding world has been doubling year over year for the last three years, keeps going up, because everything's going online, not just, you know, standard, you know, technologies and so forth. But also, fundraising is going online, email and websites are now the first place people go. And so it's it was well positioned, especially during the COVID times, to accept funds and so forth.

 

Because everybody wants to be a part of the startup world, post COVID. You know, it's an ideal time to start up a new business, we have a whole new set of care abouts we're starting a whole new startup cycle, interest rates are zero stock market's all time high, a lot of money looking for a place to go. So it's a great time to start a business and raise funding from either angels and VCs or the crowdfunders. Now, and,

 

Roy Barker  07:20

again, I know that this isn't really your wheelhouse, but on the crowdfunding how to like a VC or Angel, usually, they come in and take a piece of that business. And so, you know, there's some negotiation, I guess, with how much control how much percentages that they may take, but like the crowdfunding issue, is how does that work? Is there somebody that's kind of in charge of what what is raised for that certain piece? Or how does that work? Exactly?

 

Hall  07:47

Well, the way it works now, with the title three crowdfunding is you go to a portal is basically a broker dealer license portal, there's about 50 licenses out there. But I'd say 95% of all activity goes through three to five portals. So it's pretty well concentrated, and you set up on their portal and you put your investor documents together, you go through the compliance issues, you have to fill out a form See, you have to do an audit on your financials, in some cases, because you're basically going public in the eyes of the SEC, you're now a public company, when you go on a crowdfunding portal, and then you set the valuation.

 

And you bring up a good point, I see a wide range of valuations, what my company is worth, when I see deals coming from the title three world, in some cases, I think they had very good guidance on what their company was realistically worth. And in other cases, I think people got a bigger idea than they thought it was. And they come out with valuations that are not quite on target. And I see those all the time when they come to me. And they come to me when they want to go to the angels and the VCs after the title three, it used to be you could raise up to a million dollars now you can raise up to $5 million on the title three.

 

So we see a lot of parallel activity between crowdfunding and angel investing because we're at the same level there. The problem is, is that if you went and set the valuation on your own in a title three, reg CF crowdfunding portal, you may have not put enough market reality into that. And then when you leave and go to the rest of the world, angels and VCs are the first stop, you'll quickly find out if you are market rate or if you are not.

 

And so we see that quite a bit. That that's that is a major issue is how do you make sure the terms are going to be relevant to everybody, not just the title three, I'll be candid crowd crowdfunders primarily look at the product. Is it interesting? Do I think it's cool? Do I like it? And they don't look at valuations and metrics and those types of things, which angels and VCs when we look at in a business, yeah.

 

Roy Barker  09:49

So yeah, I guess, you know, in my limited knowledge, I think with the angel and the VC, you get a lot more help that they're going to get I guess the, I'll ask you what is the typical goal of the angel or VC as far as the length of hold, and, you know, is it to take it public, or is it mainly just to, you know, raise the increase the value and then sell it in the open market?

 

Hall  10:17

I'd say that for the angel and VC, the goal is to take a company, hold it for five, seven years, and then sell it for 10x, what you put into it is a rough cut there. And very few companies go public anymore, they stay private, much longer, there's so many more funding options privately, you can actually sell the shares after 567 years on the secondary markets and companies stay private, so much longer, you really don't see many IPOs you do some, especially in the life science case, in angels are the same thing. You know, they want three to five times your money in three to five years was the mantra in the angel world itself.

 

And so they're looking to make a good gain as well on it. angels bring expertise, there's a lot of startups and founders that need more experience and knowledge about how to run and grow a business and about how to hire team members. Angels are very helpful with that. And then VCs are also helpful with that plus, they also can help you raise follow on funding, if you're continuing to grow up the curve and need more funding, they can be very helpful in that direction, the crowdfunding world, people go to them, because they want the brand to get to a broader group of people, they want customers, they want people to support them, but they don't usually lean on crowdfunders for team or expertise like they do with angels and venture capital. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  11:38

So who is suited, you know, to come to you the we'll talk about the paperwork and kind of get ready for that in a minute. But just, you know, the average guy out there, he's either develop, I guess, you've probably developed a really cool product that's thinks has some potential or has had a little bit of potential in the smaller market. And then, so they want to come to you to try to take this to a larger market. And then also assume to get that expertise that need to go from, you know, smaller, maybe one or two, not necessarily one or two. But sometimes it goes from the founder to, you know, really a huge type environment, like a corporate environment.

 

Hall  12:18

Sure. So when they come to angels, angels are what we call go to market money, you're in the market and you're starting to grow, and you need some funding to carry it forward. That's where angels come in. Once you have a little bit more traction, and now you're growing in the market, that's when you find venture capital will come into it. So in our program, if you have revenue, come on in, let's talk about if you're pre revenue, it may be a little bit too soon for the angels.

 

And we get into this place where startups would come to me and say, well, in two months, we're going to the market, and I find that that's many, many investors are just very skeptical about that, because they've invested in a deal before that was going to market in two months. And it turned out to be two years, they really weren't in the market. So my coaching is to startups get to the market as fast as you can, if you have to come up with a smaller product or a lower price product or a discounted product, you know, sell something and get in the market. And then we get past that, are you in the market, you you want to be in the market, and then you can access angels and VCs much more readily.

 

Roy Barker  13:23

So now, we've had an initial conversation, you kind of like, you know, I'm in the market doing some stuff. Now I'm like, a, I'm ready to do this. You know, what are some things that how do I need to get my house in order to you know, to go to the angel or the VC? What are some specifics that we need to do there?

 

Hall  13:41

Well, the first step is make sure you're ready for fundraising, because when you take on outside investors, you have to have your documents in order. So make sure your accounting is up to speed, make sure everything that you put off is now done before you get to the investor. And we look for a pitch deck and what we call a data room data room are 1015 documents that most investors will look for like an income statement balance sheet, five year forecasts, you know, some of the basic things are already put together in one in one place. And then put together your plan. If you're raising money, how much are you raising, you need to have some vision of what that is and what you can accomplish with it.

 

And then your your pitch deck needs to show the story how this is going to play out for the investor. My coaching is always it's it's one team one product one fundraising one outcome. You don't want to play the multiple scenario game with the investors and we see that quite a bit. Yes, we know you have lots of choices, but what we'd really like to manage ones let's start with one later we'll we'll pivot if we need to. But the idea is get your story together, get your documents together and then start looking talking to your friends and contacts and colleagues people that you know, it's always a great story to say I went to my family and friends and they gave me some money versus I went to my family and friends. They wouldn't give me money.

 

How about you I get that quite a bit. And I say, Well, if your family friends don't believe you, I'm not sure I will either. So show demonstrate support from everybody you work with along the way you put money in your teens put money, everybody's supporting this, and you're just growing to support. Some people do go on to Kickstarter campaigns, they said when on Kickstarter raised $20,000, in three days, that that's great market validation, that's great product validation. And some people use crowdfunding to show traction and growth.

 

And it's not a bad idea. So make sure you're using those things to demonstrate support, because that's what investors are looking for is, who else is in the deal? Who else is validating this, and you want to show that customers are the best validation, having customer buy the product is the absolute best, because it now shows you got market validation and product validation, the product works and people will pay for it.

 

Roy Barker  15:52

So what is the difference between people, Pete, I guess, on the investors interest between, I'm coming to you with this brand new product that I've just cooked up in my basement versus maybe have streamlined or refined another product that's out there, is there really any difference?

 

Hall  16:12

Well, it just goes to the market that you're going after, if you're in a brand new market, it may be okay to come up with your own product for it, and so forth. If you're going to an existing market, then you'll probably be doing a product that other people have done and and both have pros and cons. If you're the first one in the market, well, then you're having to establish the market and educate everybody about what's going on.

 

But you're the main player. So there's extra work, but there's an extra benefit to going into an existing market, then you have to differentiate yourself and show how you're different from the others can't say there's no competition, there is competition, you just have to show how you're better than the competition. And in in a very heavily marketed comp market like that, what you need to do is, is show a 10x improvement.

 

If you're going if you're only 10%, better, nobody's switching from what they're doing now to yours. But if you're 10x, better, that's both cost and productivity, then you can actually get people to switch over because you have a much more compelling solution. So it really has to be a step above then, as opposed to just a slight change or advantage over something. Something else.

 

Roy Barker  17:21

Yeah. So how long does this process take? And I guess, kind of what is that preparation? If I've just gone to market with something that, you know, I'm finally getting this a little bit of revenue coming in. But you know, do we need to think about this. I know we can't reach out until we kind of get to that point, like you were talking about. But we should really be thinking if we feel like we've got a great idea, we should probably really be thinking about this a lot earlier than, you know, waking up on Monday morning saying, Wow, I think I probably need to really see if I can't get some capital in here by this afternoon.

 

You know, I mean, I know that's a little bit you know, kind of a little play on words there. But it does take a process. And it does take time, because I'm sure that the investors, they want to do their due diligence to they're going to probably do it on not only you the product, but the market that you're trying to go into as well.

 

Hall  18:17

Right. We always coach people, you know, six months before you start your fundraise, you want to sit down and start planning it, get the documents ready, make sure the teams on board, get your lawyer in place, start circling up family and friends to say I'm going to be raising funding just to let you know that I'm looking for your support there. So you need to put some time into preparing for it. And you'll learn a lot along the way, you know, what valuation we set is a big one, how much we raise is a big one.

 

So there's questions you have to sort out and it does take a little bit of time and input from people before you can really finalize that. Once you have that you can go out and start to raise money from people and start to bring it in. My rule is for every $1 million you're trying to raise it will take you one calendar year to raise it. So those who want to raise a million dollars at the seed level my coaching is, let's start with 250.

 

And let's go raise 2/51 because you're giving up ownership of the company and your valuation is not so great at the beginning, it gets better, that's the valuation is what your company is worth before the money goes into it. And then the higher that valuation, then the less ownership you're giving away. So if you raise a million dollars at the seed level, you're probably giving away too much equity. Start with 250. That's the minimum. You can go raise from an angel group or any angel investor if you try to raise less than 250. They'll wonder if you have enough money to really accomplish what you say you're going to accomplish. 500 is a good number for sea level raise as well.

 

But raise that money, deploy it, get the results coming back and as you demonstrate more products and revenue and team. Your evaluation takes a stair step function up and you can raise bigger amounts of money. Later on not not such a bad bad number. And so that's that's the coaching is start small, tranche it out and milestone it and goes stepwise up the curve there. Because you often find that sometimes you just don't need to raise money, you just need to spend your time doing it. And you can save the dilution from that as well.

 

Roy Barker  20:20

Okay. Yeah. So how complicated does that structure become, as we, you know, we start taking on the invite are people start investing money? Are there pitfalls that we should watch out that, you know, maybe not from the professionals as much as you know, Uncle, uncle Joe's loaning me some money, and then being careful about you know, how much or how much of that company we give away, are structuring in a way that they that they can be bought out very easily any things like that we should be watching for?

 

Hall  20:54

Sure, you know, the valuation needs to go up on every fundraise. And one mistake people make is they want to give family and friends a better deal. So maybe my company's worth $5 million, but I give my family and friends a $10 million valuation, this becomes a problem later, when you go to angels who are at the five that $5 million level wondering, why would I pay 10, this is worth five. And so you end up reducing the ownership that the family and friends got to bring in other investors.

 

So you want to keep the big picture in mind, I have to stair step function this up from a family of friends, to angels to VCs. And when you you have to have a certain amount of revenue at each level to get that so the question I always ask is not Can I raise this round of money at that valuation, but if I do, so, will I be able to raise the next round at the next valuation. So keep the bigger picture in mind as you put the valuations out there. One way to handle this is with convertible notes or safe notes, we don't set the valuation, we set a limit on the valuation but not the valuation.

 

And we'll figure that part out later, when we get to investors that are putting money in for equity. At the very early stage, we it can be hard to figure out what this thing is really worth and get agreement on it. So we can move that down the road, that decision down the road a little bit. And there's a lot of veterans that just want to be in the deal. And we'll figure out valuation later. So convertible notes and safe notes are often tools used at this level.

 

Roy Barker  22:19

Okay. So what about giving away ownership or in not giving it away, but somebody is purchasing it? Are they're, you know, kind of rules that a lot because a lot of people don't want to give up control. They don't want partners that are, you know, too heavy handed. But the reality is, if people are going to invest money in your company, they're going to want to have a say, how do you have a balancing act between you know, not given what, because a lot of times to these companies or the younger ones that are growing, it's dynamic, and there's a lot of excitement. And we don't want to tamp that down as well.

 

Hall  22:56

Right? Well, in the end, it's a negotiation, as you go through each round of major funding, it's about 20 25% of the ownership is going to go away. So you're up for some dilution as you go through this process. But the terms are usually a separate negotiation from the valuation. And as you go forward, you're going to need a bigger team, and you're going to need investors who can help you with the business, they will, you'll be going into areas you'll need more support with you'll need additional money.

 

So you have to think along the lines that I will have to go through dilution, I will have to bring other people and treat them as part of the team as opposed to not part of the team, I have been at the end of exits, many times where the founders zone, maybe 10 15% of the company at that point and no more. So realize, you know, the further up the curve you go, the less ownership you have, but then the value of the business is so much greater. So you have to keep both in mind, not just my ownership, but what is the value of the company, because you're getting a slight smaller slice of the pie, but the pie is much bigger as you go up the curve.

 

Roy Barker  23:59

Yeah, if you have, like a real home run, going to do DC that the the founders do get to stay in and have their still run the business and still have, you know, somewhat autonomy and control or does at some point when it gets to be too, you know, a certain size or certain, you know, I don't know how you would gauge it but more you know, the professional start stepping in and kind of moving the founder over.

 

Hall  24:30

Yes, as the company gets bigger, you will also find that as a founder, you're going to need many more skills many more hours. And it really is a balancing act. What is the vision of the founder Do you like working at the early stage, you want to work at the later stage, you want to learn new skills, you want to be on the road this much and you have to start thinking through what it takes to really run a company at a much higher level.

 

And I find many founders really have a passion for innovation and other things where they're happy to step out. Others want to stay in and so forth. And that's fine, you're going to have to start to take on other roles and bigger roles and so forth that you haven't before. So it really depends, I think, on what the founders vision is about what they want to do. So and but you're right is as company gets bigger VCs are going to be expecting higher level skill sets, different activities to grow the business. And if you're signing up for it, that's great. If not, then we'll probably need to bring somebody else in. It's certainly we need to expand the team itself or supporting that growth.

 

Roy Barker  25:33

Yeah, the other thing, I guess, it's also good when we talk about getting our house in order, that's probably a good time to be have professionals brought in we need to probably get our lawyer that's going to be watching out for our interest. But we also probably need to have a CPA or somebody that is doing our books, not just, you know, I've been I guess once you get to this level, it's not going to be okay that I've got a you know, a scratch sheet here down with our revenues and expenditures from last year.

 

Hall  26:05

That's a good point, you know, we one of the issues we get into is, you know, companies when they first start off, and they're very small, and so forth, there are certain things you have to do when you run a business, you have to pay your payroll taxes, you have to pay your income taxes, and many startups, especially in Texas, are thinking me pay taxes, why would I have to do that? And the answer is, well, we all have to pay taxes, if we're earning revenue, and making income and so forth.

 

And you want that part to be clean and done properly. So the books have to be cleaned to show you know that we're actually complying with the laws and so forth. And that's one thing investors will look for is that we're got this part taken care of, it may not be the most sophisticated system in the world. But if we're getting meaningful numbers, we can manage the business and we're compliant with the legal then then we're in good shape.

 

Roy Barker  26:55

So what do you help with on through investor Connect, I know that it says that you're dedicated to the education of startups, and startup investors. So you're helping the people that are going to be the investors, investing, you kind of help them navigate the pitfalls of being an early, early stage investor. Sure,

 

Hall  27:18

I talked to a lot of accredited investors who are from other industries, like real estate, oil and gas and other things. And they say, Oh, I'd love to invest in a startup. I just don't know how I don't know what this pre money thing is people keep talking about. And so I actually started this with a, an event, it was a lunch and learn I did an Austin, once a month, where I invite investors to come out we have 50 investors have sandwiches and have investors talk about how you invest in startups give some experience and examples and some case studies. Unfortunately, that model didn't really scale. It just was a physical thing.

 

And you know, the camera in the back of the room doesn't really capture it. So I took it took a step back and said, Well, how do I get this thing online? And so podcasting was at the fourth that point, this was in 2013. And so I said, well, let's just do podcast interviews with the investors, and then post it and then we're, we're natively online and we can get it further. And it's to help investors learn how to invest in best way is to listen to other investors talk about what they look for and how they invest. And about half the audience are investors. The other half are startups. startups are trying to figure out what what investors are looking for investors trying to figure out, well, how are other people doing this, and found that that was a great way to do education was through the podcast program.

 

One of the best things I ever listened to when I was becoming an angel investor was what was called the Frank Peter show. Brian Peters was a tech coast Angel out of Southern California that did over 450 interviews, and they were hour long interviews. They're beautifully prepared. And he interviewed VCs, angels and others about how they did diligence and how they screened deals and so forth. Then, I learned more from that than anything else. And thought, well, podcasting is a great medium for education. So I went ahead and formed the 501 c three and said, Well, this is just going to be about education. And so make clear. So we are promoting things, you know, better off from that. We're really here just to learn. And that's how we came up with it.

 

Roy Barker  29:18

Yeah, and I guess on the flip side of that, the accelerators, you've got one that the SKU incubation station that you're involved with, and then you'd previously been involved one with Dallas, who were those designed for when when would I want to come? You know, is it like, do you do you need to have the product service or whatever, before you come or can you just come like, Hey, I'm interested in starting something up, this would be a good, good place to learn.

 

Hall  29:45

Sure. So in Austin, I had an attorney named Sherry when wrestling Academy saying she wanted to help the startup scene in Austin. And we looked around and all of the tech things were pretty well being done. It didn't feel like we needed yet another one, but I noticed when I'd ran this CTN grew up in Austin, that half the investments were in consumer product goods. And I thought that's interesting.

 

They all said they were tech investors, but yet they're really ncpg. And that was an area that was coming up that was new millennials wanting their own brands and new innovations in food were really taken to the fore. And so I suggested, let's do this consumer product goods. And you put that program together under the name eq bation station. And we later renamed it to skew for what they you know, the categorization of products on the shelf. And it really took off. Today, they've got 35 companies per semester going through the program, it's national, and what it does, and we had some great returns and exits from the early days, when we put it together, we built a great group of mentors that came in and gave the education for it.

 

So somebody has a product and they, they they actually have a product that was one rule we had is you had to have sold it. Most of them had bolted and the stove at home in the kitchen. And then they were selling it in the local farmers market that counts. But you're you're out there with a product. And now in the program, we were helping rebrand, repackage it, get them on the shelf at Whole Foods and other groceries and so forth. Most of them are food and beverage products of the time. It's later grown to include health, wellness, and other aspects as well. So it's for people that have an initial product, but they really need some education and putting their plans together.

 

They're the same one in Dallas, the NFC accelerate was a near field communication, it was great technology came together and help companies come and put their their product together for it also, and get it out to new applications and so forth. So accelerators are great, but it's best to show up with a product of some kind. So you get real real benefit. Otherwise, you're it's hard to get much traction with sales and marketing and so forth without that.

 

Roy Barker  31:50

Okay. Yeah, and those are great, because it's like you said, it's easy to go so far with your product, it's taking it to that next level is where all the all these things can really help the founders out.

 

Hall  32:07

Absolutely. There's a lot to be learned to learn in a business. And it's great to learn from people that are in your industry and sector in skew, we were spending a lot of time making introductions to buyers and brokers for different distribution channels explaining how the the the fees work, and so forth. Talking about fundraising had many people come in, say, Well, I just want to raise once be done with it. But in the CPG deal, you're raising every 24 months, whether you need it or not, because that's how you grow the business, you had to find more inventory to go on more shelves and add new products to the line. So it was it's gonna be part of everybody's job is to raise funding. So let's go ahead and get good at it.

 

Roy Barker  32:48

Yeah, I guess. What about location? if, you know, in our state, of course, Austin has become such a hotbed for you know, it's kind of this, I guess, the Silicon Valley of Texas now from what I understand, you know, a lot of startups and things going on, but does proximity have anything to do if I'm, you know, way out in West Texas somewhere? Am I going to need to like probably relocate to a city center to get more traction or with virtual environment cannot really do a lot of this online as well.

 

Hall  33:22

So after COVID, I'd say the answer is you probably does doesn't matter where you are, at this point, you can be anywhere and go raise funding first. Meetings are always on online calls like this one. And so it's a great way to get out and meet people my coaching is you need to have a national perspective on your fundraise from day one. It's great to get money from your local community and family and friends and so forth. But very quickly, you're going to be looking national with it. So where you're located is not quite as important. Some products need to benefit from one location or another based on how close you are to the resources, how close you are to the customer. But from an investor point of view, it really is a it doesn't matter anymore where you're located.

 

Roy Barker  34:05

That's awesome. Well, Hall, I certainly appreciate you taking time out of your day to come and talk with us anything else that you want to leave the listeners with to talk about them angel or VC investing.

 

Hall  34:17

I say now's a great time to if you haven't be come an angel investor but want to now's a great time to get out there. There's a lot of great deals. COVID has given us a whole new startup cycle that's beginning now a whole new set of care abouts. And that's when startups really thrive stock markets at an all time high, the interest rates are near zero. So there's plenty of funding going out for startups these days. So we see a tremendous rush we hear about the big tech companies going under regulatory and breaking up at some level.

 

So there's going to be even more opportunity coming from the spaces that that leaves open to new startups. So I think we're in a startup mode and we'll be I think for the next five years. Kicking off this new cycle. So if you have a thought about it, now's the time 25% of the people that were employed before COVID are talking about finding a new job afterwards. And oftentimes that means finding you're starting your own business. So if you have a business and you want to raise funding of glad to work with anybody, just let me know and glad to talk with you about how to raise funding our website, 10 Capital Group has quite a bit of information as well, you guys, calculators etc, to help as well.

 

Roy Barker  35:31

Okay, great. Before we get away a couple questions, first off, do you have Is there a tool or a habit, something that you do every day or use every day in your life professional or personal, that really adds a lot of value.

 

Hall  35:46

I do a podcast every day called the startup Funding Express. So it's a two minute podcast that I put together. It's a great educational tool. It's very granular, you can either read it or listen to it. But it's a tool that teaches you something about startup funding and investing and Investor Connect site. We have a you can listen to it there. But we also put it you can subscribe it to it in an email, will it where it shows up where you can read or listen to it Monday through Friday is one to two minute read. And it's something that you can learn about that really helps you with the startup funding world over time, it'll build your knowledge base in a nice way. Okay.

 

Roy Barker  36:23

So let's tell people, of course, who do you like to work with? How can you help them? How they can reach out, get a hold of you. And then also tell us where we can find the podcast at?

 

Hall  36:34

Sure, So we like to work with entrepreneurs who are in the market and growing their business. And we love to work with people that have a growth story, things are moving forward. If you need help with like from an accelerator, whatever, it's best to go to accelerators. But if it's just we're just doing well and we just need funding to go forward. That's who we look to work with. And the best way to reach us is through Ten Capital. Group. And the podcast is on the investorconnect.org websites we have two websites there and investor Connect.org is the podcast site itself.

 

Roy Barker  37:09

Okay, great. Well, again, thanks so much for taking time out of your day. If you're on the investor side if you're on if you're a founder and thinking about looking for some money, reach out to Hall lead and see what he can do for you. Again, that's going to do it for us on this episode. You can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com we're on all the major podcast platforms iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, we're not a one that you listened to.

 

If you'll reach out I'd be glad to add so you can listen easier. Also, we're on all the major social media platforms probably tend to hang out on Instagram a little bit more so you can reach out to us there. A video of this interview will go to our YouTube channel when the episode goes live. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.

Hall  37:59

Thank you Roy

www.tencapital.group
[email protected]
Twitter @hallt

LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/halltmartin/

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Amazing Sales Lessons Learned Selling Door To Door in New York City Featuring Wendell Jordan

A lot of new salespeople get call reluctance on the phone making cold calls. What if you were in New York City knocking on doors? Now that is face to face and scary! There is no handing up, nowhere to hide, and nowhere to run! You have to have self-confidence and be on your game to make it through the first few weeks. I can't even imagine

About Wendell

Wendell Jordan is a 10-year sales and marketing professional. Currently, he is the owner of Jordan Marking consultants, a digital agency focused on high ROI marketing solutions. As an SEO Consultant and web design professional, he helps local businesses get more sales, retain more customers, and build brand awareness online

www.jordanmarketingconsultants.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Full Transcript Below

Amazing Sales Lessons Learned Selling Door To Door in New York City Featuring Wendell Jordan

Sat, 7/17 1:07PM • 1:09:29

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, sales, door, selling, talking, time warner, b2b, company, knock, manager, wendell, cold calling, call, day, channels, point, cable, house, crm, toughest part

SPEAKERS

Wendell, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:00

On. Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests that can speak to a lot of diverse topics. And today, I'm excited to have Wendell Jordan back. For some of y'all that may have listened. We got a previous episode he is 10 years in sales and marketing profession. He is currently the owner of Jordan Marketing Consultants, a digital agency focused on high ROI solutions, and a SEO consultant and web design professional.

 

He helps local businesses get more sales, retain more customers build brand awareness and pretty hyper focused on local SEO. So Wendell Welcome back, but yeah, just a little background. So we talked a lot about the local SEO and about what Wendell does in his day job. But you know, as we talked pre show, I found out that Wendell started his sales career knocking on doors in New York City. And it just floored me.

 

Because I know how some of us, you know, can have call reluctance from time to time, and I just was like, so surprised. Anyway. So Wendell was great, gracious enough with this time to come back with us. And we're just gonna have a little fun episode talking about some things that he's seen and gone through. Wendell. Thanks for taking time out of your day. We certainly do appreciate it.

 

Wendell  01:31

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Being being a door to door sales rep in New York is definitely not for the faint of heart.

 

Roy Barker  01:40

I, you know, I see people, you know, in the past, I've seen people that work the phones that, you know, I think I related this in our last episode, we had a, this was back a long time ago, we had a call tracker, it would just look at phone numbers. And it would count how many dials everybody made every day. And so we had a guy that he was so sheepish, that, you know, he was not making any sales, he was struggling. So I pulled his call log, and I started looking at the phone numbers, he was called the 711.

 

He was calling the time and temperature at the local bank, called his mother, grandmother, you know, he's gone, anybody who's friendly, but he's not making any actual cold calls. And he's so reluctant on the telephone. And so, you know, in my mind, I extrapolate this too. Okay, so how would you feel knock on somebody's door in New York City, you know, not to, as I told you before, not to be too stereotypical. But they can be fairly abrasive, just in the course of general business much less you standing there knocking on their door, trying to sell them something that I tell us a little bit about that.

 

Wendell  02:45

So two things that come to mind. So the first thing about the cheapest gentlemen, that you just spoke on. So when I So first, let me go back. Um, when I started, as I was telling you, pre taping, when I started to do door to door sales, I didn't have any background really, right. Like I was in music for some time. And I reached out to different record labels and would make phone calls and stuff. But it was trivial at best, right?

 

So I didn't really have a scope on what was or was not sales. So my green is, you know, I was so green. I didn't know how bad it could be. Right? Right. Speak to the sheep business, sheepish sness of a fellow salesperson, I remember when I started, we had to take a test, because we had to know the product. So it was probably like a six to eight part test, right, like six or eight modules. And the thing in the office was, as long as the manager was there, you could get help, as much help as you needed to make sure you passed so they could Hurry up and get you out to the field didn't care about the test. It was more the vendor that wanted you to pass the test.

 

Roy Barker  03:53

Right. So

 

Wendell  03:55

the this one gentleman, the supervisor helped me probably 80% of the test. So he pulls me aside and he goes, Hey, you're not taking this seriously. I've been here for five weeks, and I haven't had a sale. Okay, you come in here, you're playing around. I'm very jovial and playful all the time. Like I've been this way since forever. So he's like, you're playing around all the time. And this just isn't gonna work out for you. So I'm like, now I'm competitive, competitive more than I am anything else. I'm competitive about all kinds of trivial things.

 

I'll try to finish my cup of water before you if need, right. So I say to him, I'm like, well, so actually I say, Okay, thank you. I appreciate it. And then going about the day. I was shadowing at the time, I shouted the gentleman I came back, I'm still playing in office and pulls me to the side again, he goes Listen, telling you, I've been here five weeks, I've had a single sale. I later find out speaking the sheep was just he was only knocking maybe 10 doors a day, which is the equivalent of you know, calling One or two people a day, right those a day is you should be doing that.

 

Every few minutes. It really gets nominal. So he's I mean he I mean he is browbeating Me too I mean he is, you know, you need to learn the research or the software I mean of the of the technology we sell. I mean, he is just browbeating me so I go Well, how about this? I think there was an eight week window, if you didn't make a sale, they will they will take you. It will remove you from payroll, as I've already called. But because we were commissioned only so it didn't make any sense for them to keep paying for your system if you weren't making sales, right. So it was about two, two weeks, I think at this point away from is he I think he was about six weeks in. So I told him I said, I'll get my first sale before you.

 

Right And at this point, I'm only maybe four days into this job. So and as I started to say earlier, I still remember this first sale to this day. I shadow a full shadow for three days. They only let me shadow one. They told me I was good enough in the go get go get one right. So I go out knock this area in Jamaica queens, if anyone's familiar with you make your queen so about an armory. Right old wall Parsons. And to make it happen. I remember vividly because I know the area but I've never walked it.

 

Yeah, so I'm walking. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna mock and nobody's answering, slamming the doors, yelling through the door, nothing. I finally get this house as a little corner house. And this guy's sitting outside. I started talking to him three hours later. So I took my I took all my I took every bit of anything I know about this product out. Yeah, yeah, I was later he goes, this all sounds really good. But I'm not the decision maker. Hold on goes in the house goes against the system. So now I start all over again.

 

Right, and I call my manager because he took a little while. So I call my manager said hey, I think I got a sale. Can you help me? He's like, well, how long you've been talking to the guy I'm like was at the time I was about three hours. It is why he told me so. I don't know. But I think he wants to buy He's like, well just close it. So I'm so and he says don't take that long to talk to this next person. So I figured out how to shorten it a little bit. It only takes me an hour. So now I'm four hours into my first sale. And finally they sign up. The next day I come into the office with my paperwork. I go straight to this guy and I go

 

Do you have your first. And I don't say this pridefully. But I think he quit that next day. Because he had been there for almost two months now. And never had a sale. But again, he was only knocking 10 doors a day. So like, you know, again, to circle all the way back around. These tell us a good day was anywhere between 60 and 80 doors a day. Wow. Right? Well, you look at and again, you're you're you're you are you are you are texting right like I'm a transplant here.

 

Roy Barker  07:49

Yeah. So.

 

Wendell  07:50

And nonetheless, depending on what part of what community you're knocking in, in New York, you know, like the, the the response is different. Yeah. So my first my first day only, not maybe 20 doors because I spent four hours at one door. Right. So that clearly that was not a that was not a high return day, right? Like it's the most a day talking to one client but Oh, one customer. But the toughest part of it was being able to get in and out of the gates because gated front yards thing in New York, I didn't know that that wasn't common practice in all of America until I left.

 

Like, in Texas, most places I've been in Texas and may may be different for the North, but nobody has a fence. Right? You may have the fencing to your backyard, but not to get to the front door. It's usually pretty open. You know, it's an open landscape. So not getting going in out of doors not being shut in and out of gates not being shown who has dogs and who doesn't. Right, because this is this is more of an urban dwelling. So, you know, some people, they have signs some people don't. Um, man, I mean, again, 60 to $80 a day. 60 $80 a day was the was was was the low. And if you were in apartment building, the expectation was somewhere around like 120

 

Roy Barker  09:08

Wow. Yeah. And, you know, our expectation for cold calls that we had back in that day was 100. I mean, it was an easy number. You know, you were really hitting it, you could do 200 very easily so I mean, I can't even imagine trying to get to 100 doors 100 doors in the day, but you know that being face to face. You know that it's it's funny when you think about you being on the phone and how upset and worried people get about the rejection on the phone.

 

It's like we all you got to do is hang up, they can't see you. But I don't know when you're on when you're in person. I mean, man, you are right there. And then also, I think when you get questioned when you're on the phone you always have that like hey, I can put you on hold a man and I find this answer but man when you're standing door to you know face to face You got to have the you got to have an answer.

 

Wendell  10:03

So, and most of my responses will be stories because I have I have stories for days, my own manager, and I will be sure to send him this this specific podcast, because he will find it hilarious. He used to say if you need anything call me that was his phrase when we left obviously go if you need anything call me. He never answered the phone. Whenever the phone calling him was a moot point. We almost never answered the phone.

 

And then when did he answer? His answer was always Yes. It didn't matter what it was whether it was truly possible. His answer was always Yes, he would, yes, you to a sale, no matter how many yeses it took. So we would go door to door. And we used to have what they used to call a slick. So that's what the manager used to call it like, like a like a one sheet. And they would laminate it for us. Yeah, yeah. Right. Right. So they were laminated for us. And that's the days of my managers, one of the other managers called slick.

 

So we used to have this slick, and at the time, it was cable. So it had the good, better best package on there. And on the flip side, it explained to you because he was selling a fiber, we saw a fiber optic. So if we show you the difference in the note, right, like anyone cares or knows what to notice. So we would, then that was all that was all we had. And every now and again, that will give us two to five channel guides. And the intention was for was for you to never give a channel got away.

 

Roy Barker  11:29

Yeah,

 

Wendell  11:30

right. That was the really the intention of having a channel guy was to hopefully put something in the prospects hand fast enough so that they didn't close the door in your face. Yeah, that was really the intention. Same thing with the slip, it was really the intention was was for them to hold on to something so that you could force them lucidity. So the that I think, in the very beginning, and I was fortunate because I'm a talker, right. So I didn't really have trouble with the talking part. It was selling part that I had to grow into.

 

But in the beginning, the toughest part was being able to have the conversation and be versed enough to be able to answer the questions on the fly. And then hopefully, you get the same questions enough to where you can remember your answers. Right? Right. Like To this day, I talk to people from all different nationalities, and I'm still I can talk about indian tv still, because I sold a lot of indian tv packages.

 

So I set TV and Sony TV and all these other things to this day, I kind of have some understanding of reality as a couple of Polish television networks that are very common for people who are, you know, maybe first generation or, you know, migrated here, they need their Polish TV, but there's only two channels at that time that most cable providers offered. So, again, things that you kind of get to know on the fly.

 

But I tell you, in the eight modules, it was never a section on national TV. So like there was so many things that we weren't even equipped with that, in the very beginning of my sales for that specific company. I had no idea what the answers were. Right. So like, oftentimes, I would say, and this is what I didn't know, I was like, actually, I'm not too sure. I'm here to give it my manager and I'm not sure. But like you said it's door to door. So I only have a very small window before these people want to go back to their lives.

 

Right. And can you carry me around the house like a phone? Yeah, I was folding, you know, or a cell phone and me be able to talk to them while they're doing all these other things. They have to stop everything they're doing to come talk to this stranger at the door. He claims he's going to get them a better deal on cable. It was interesting.

 

Roy Barker  13:41

Yeah. And then I would only assume that if if you make a sale you actually have some paperwork you have to fill out so then it's like them letting you in the house or either them coming out on the front stoop or in the hallway to fill that out. I mean out how difficult was that?

 

Wendell  13:58

So and we talked about this off air Last time, we legally weren't supposed to go into the house. So for liability reasons, right? Because if you trip and fall, then whose insurance pays for your broken light, right? So we technically weren't supposed to oftentimes people would invite you in and to not be rude you know off you're very tongue in cheek I managed to say people invite you in you're okay. Right But don't invite Try not to invite yourself into people's homes. Right? Um, I actually think it was somewhere like in Texas or maybe it was Missouri but someone It was a door to door cable person I got in trouble because something happened in the house and there was some allegations but it all stemmed from him being a door to door person that was supposed to be inside be away.

 

So the tough part about it was when we used to have a little clipboard there, that was the other piece that was it was a clipboard. So in a perfect world and again, you know, like I'm pretty big guy. So like, I can hold my clipboard on my arm really. Right. So I can do everything. I need in front of me. But you know, if you're smaller stature, your arms are shorter, it poses a totally different set of issues. The toughest part of closing the sale was the paperwork, because it was a sheet of paper probably 14 inches long give or take a little bit longer than a standard sheet of paper.

 

And at some point in there, you had to sign we had to check a box that said month a month or, or contract. And there would be times where people would be excited elated, you're supposed to fill out the paperwork first, and then put it into the system, oftentimes, you put into the system first, and the system is way more important paperwork. And then they get to the paperwork, and they don't want to sign it because it's just a piece of paper, they sign it, and then you can change to a contract as far as they're concerned, right?

 

Internally in the system, which afforded me the ability later on to be able to sell to b2b relatively easily. But I used to have to ask for the social security numbers. Wow. Right at the door. Identity Verification at the door,

 

Roy Barker  16:06

I like this guy just wandered out to my door now like even a Muslim.

 

Wendell  16:10

That's what I'm gonna save some money on, on on cable. But first, I need your social security number, your mother's maiden name, your date of birth, okay, I promise this is completely legit. That was that was a struggle. That was a struggle. But again, when I think back on it, that was the thing that helped me to be able to do this from a from a from a cold calling perspective. And I was actually having this conversation last week, as I was telling you, I was I was grilling it in Miami, right?

 

Talking to a gentleman who was talking about in the finance sector, he was talking about the managers, you know, the asset managers having to come face to face. And what I've always told people is most of my clients never see me in person. So, but because I could get a stranger to give me their social security number, I knew I could talk to anyone in the country and get a debit card or credit card because that's way easier.

 

Roy Barker  17:03

Right? Right.

 

Wendell  17:04

I mean, I mean, I told the police Ranger I had a very high first time contact, close rate. So often more often than not probably. And it may sound a bit. Like I'm tooting my own horn, I kind of am but I had like a 70% first time contact rate. So like it wasn't Yeah, like I this is one of the few things I brag about. But I was an amazing door to door salesman, mainly because I talk a lot and I'm silly, right? I got play a lot. So it's it disarms people.

 

Yeah, exactly. It wasn't like I had to come back two or three times to get these people to give this information, you know, and I granted we did have a national company that we were associated with, right? or international company, if you will, but our badges didn't say their name, right. Like how bad you said, the vendor that they contracted, which again, made it even more sketchy, because even get to the certain point.

 

And I would have to give them this. Almost what would be considered a Chromebook is out if they sell netbooks anymore. But it was like a little small, little little laptop, I had to hand it over to the to the customer. And you'd be surprised how many times? You know, it was like, Well, I don't know. And then I'd have to I'd actually type in my social security number, and then show them that it only showed up as those little Asterix. Yeah, yeah. Right.

 

And then sometimes what would happen is people would say, Okay, we'll sing a song and dance about how great their credit was, because it was it was credit check. And we let them know that. And then they will come back with a $500 deposit. But oftentimes, it will be because they didn't put a rule socially. Right. So anytime we had a deposit, like probably 6035 30, or 40% of the time was because they weren't putting real information in because they weren't sure what was going to happen.

 

Roy Barker  18:46

Right.

 

Wendell  18:46

Right. Oh, and then even to speak even further to that, I left that company and went to a different one a little bit later on, and my daughters your career, and they actually only required their ID, their identification verification process was a lot simpler. So you could actually use the driver's license ID. So that made life way simpler. And needless to say, if the barrier of entry is a driver's license, ID, we can do that, you know, relative ease.

 

Yeah. But it was I mean, I remember the first time not that first sale, but I remember the first time was they were very, very amenable that those very first people that that allow me to get my first sale they didn't know was my first sale. They were very minimal. They actually gave me a very skewed view on life. Because when I got the first one, my first day out by myself, I thought that my life was going to be graduates, right? Like I thought every day would be a sale because if you got one of the first day, you were never Right. Right.

 

And it was easy. It was again, I talked more than I needed to, I probably could have gave a total of an hour and gotten a sale, you know, but other than those people I mean, I remember that the next few It was hard because even if I got to the point where We started talking about price, and then I'd have to pull out the net book. And then once I get to the point where I got to go to social now I'm and it's also in your confidence of being able to say, and I'm going to need your date of birth and social right now. Right? Like I gotta be able to say it now like, I know this sounds sketchy, but you have to say it like this is what everyone does. It's normal, right?

 

Roy Barker  20:25

Yeah, so you actually have you know, there's like multiple hurdles getting somebody just to answer the door that was probably the

 

Wendell  20:33

easier buddy's bar was was answering the door. Everything was after it was the was distressed. I mean, man, oh, man, I remember. I was in a in a Rockaway Beach, which used to be a, like a resort city in in New York. So Rockaway Beach is a lot of bungalow houses that are still there, people living in now. But Rockaway Beach, I'm not getting this one complex. And and sometimes they will give us territory that they only wanted us to work for a very short period.

 

Most territory, they expect you to work about three to five weeks, and then sometimes they give you especially a building. It would only be maybe a weekend deal. So it'd be a Friday through Sunday thing, because in New York, which I'd also learned in talking to other people and door to door in New York, depending on what complex you were in, you know, what kind of what kind of apartment complex it was sometimes, in the leasing. It would say that they would not allow soliciting.

 

So they would have to talk to the people in the complex and decide this specific weekend. We're allowing solicitors to come in. Okay. That said, we were working as building on a Friday night. That next Saturday, apparently we knocked on some board members of whatever his doors the night before. And they weren't happy. They didn't answer. They weren't happy. So that morning. I don't know how they did it.

 

So fans, I mean, we finished we never stopped, we always stopped knocking at eight o'clock. So think legally, you can knock out the knives like you can't call after nine. And then we would start, especially on a Saturday and about 1011 o'clock. And by the time we got to the building, there was already somebody downstairs to let us know that we were not allowed back in the building. Oh, my God. territory was gone.

 

Roy Barker  22:17

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It made me think about the the time like during the week, did you mostly knock in the evenings? Because you know, people were at work, I'm sure. You know, unless you were in an older part of town, it'd be hard to find people at home.

 

Wendell  22:33

Right. So it just depends on the community. So and, again, this is one of these things where I, I love selling. I mean, I love it. I love it a lot. I enjoy. I think it's because of the conversational piece. Yeah, I was fortunate enough. And I'm gonna answer your question. But I was fortunate enough to help someone last weekend with something with with with a sales piece, right. And like the amount of endorphins that get pumped in me as I'm selling, because I had to add to do a little bit of selling that just rapport building with the people, and I'm talking to all and when I was done, I was like, oh, man, I missed that.

 

Because I don't I don't get to do that anymore. Face to face situation. Um, but what we used to do, or let me rephrase, what I used to do was only not between the hours of five and 830, because nine o'clock, legally 859 is the last time you could not want to do it. After that. You're it's I don't know what laws you break, but you're not allowed to solicit after a certain hour, right. So I would usually do between five and six and about 850. Right. And depending on the community, like it was a point where one summer, I had a community where there was usually one of the two people in this household would be home.

 

So I had a partner at the time. And my partner and I were going to this community at 11 o'clock, and by one o'clock because it was a really high contact rate. And by about one two o'clock, we would already have the sales that we needed for the day. It was only maybe like a three or four hour, three or four hour thing and every now and again we would go back out and try to catch the houses that we did it. The other thing too that was key for us or key for the way that this company set up success for their door to door reps was we had something called the door tag. So if you think about like the FedEx with ups has it in leave.

 

Oh yeah. Yeah. Is it here? So I was would say, you know the major companies name and we would pan right our our name and phone number and so that in itself created its own level of difficulty. Sometimes we will call it was still a scam. Right? So they would ask a million questions. I one person actually googled my name and Google my phone number, but because I spent a lot of time in knows music you're spamming the internet because spamming the internet was not a thing at that time, right? Like that was like common practice. Spam was normal.

 

So when you Google my name at that time, you would get these message board posts about this artists that we were promoting. Because I would usually I would usually use my name as the, you know, as the author. So, and then there was a recording studio that I used to I used to own so like this person, Google my name, and they called me. I mean, it was the most mysterious phone call ever. They were like, Hello, is this window Jordan? And I'm like, yeah, Hey, what's up? How you don't? Yeah, you left your name and number.

 

And I mean, they were it was such a, they were so mysterious about the way that they call they call private. And they call you from horizon. What's was sitting in, but are you from that company? Yes. Okay. Well, we I googled you, and it says here that you have a recording studio and Whitestone. And I'm like, Well, yeah, I mean, if you google the phone, if it's my phone number, like I'm not, I didn't pretend like it was horizons, right? Exactly. Like we didn't get that phone conversation. And so it was, I loved it. Because I enjoyed the I enjoyed that part. I enjoyed never really knowing what was gonna happen tomorrow. Right? Like, every day, we had a new story. I mean,

 

Roy Barker  26:23

the, the people get not necessarily violent, but maybe, you know, come to the door with a gun behind the door, or a knife or some kind of, you know, weapon thinking that they're gonna have to fend you off?

 

Wendell  26:39

Well, Roy, what I would say is, and I always make this joke, and hopefully as I continue to be fortunate enough to have people like you give me a platform, I'm a pretty big guy. Right? So if, if there were violence, it would probably have to be a weapon. But no one has ever opened the door with the intention to beat me up.

 

Right? Like, I look more like a linebacker than anything else. So the thought of opening your door and just beating me up off your step is really not a thought. But what I had happened. I wasn't sure if I was gonna tell the story. But since we talked about, like that kind of extremism, yeah. And what these doors and is one community. And I mean, the community as a whole was awesome. It was in Elmhurst, Queens, and the community was awesome. I mean, I made a ton of money in that neighborhood. But there's one young lady, I never forget it, I knocked the door. And she had the door crack that she was trying to live with through the crack.

 

And she said, Well, the owner of the of the home is not is not available. So okay, thank you. I'm just gonna leave my name. I'm going to leave my information on the door. Another thing that's different in New York than other places, is our screen doors tend to be like, almost fortified right. So like, like, this was a metal. You know, it's iron work. screen door is even a screen honestly, it's really

 

Roy Barker  27:54

just security. Yeah,

 

Wendell  27:57

it is a security door. So I'm gonna leave my information on the door. Whenever they get home. They just give me a call. It was it was late. This is back when most of my meals were eating at the drive thru window, right. So I went to the main street that was over there. And I went to Wendy's. I went got something to eat. I'm sitting in my car. And, um, this, we talked about this before we went live. But this is the New Yorker.

 

I mean, right? Like, I'm always watching everything. So I'm sitting there and I'm relaxing, sitting there, and I see a car come into the into into the parking lot. It's a police car. I see. I see it. I'm not watching you. But I see it in my peripheral. I don't see it come out the other side of the mirror. So I'm like this weird, but web, right. Next thing you know, I see someone real close walking upon my car. And then I look and I look over and there's a police officer in my window. So I put the window down. And I'm like midway through.

 

Beyond is probably midway through my second burger at this point. I was I was like 300 pounds. So I never had one burger. So midway through my burger, I'm talking to this guy. And he goes, that young lady actually called the cops and said that I was a burglar. Oh my gosh, yeah. And I spent probably an hour which may not seem long, but I spent an hour trying to verify who I was. I had my I still have my little medallion on it used to give us polo shirts, right? They had their company's name on it. They were red, right? So it was it was brand new. It was for the purpose of brand recognition, right. I had my door tags, I had my ID which was always in I used to always wear it, you know, around my neck so you can see when I not. Um, and I mean this guy, I had to call my manager. It was a whole big thing, whole big thing when it was all said and done to give the officer all his credit. He apologized. And he said, you know, you don't ever know what you're walking into.

 

Because I mean they were very aggressive when they approach the car and Um, but I mean, it's it's so again, just to answer the question, is everything necessarily a violence thing? But this young lady, she actually called the cops and then made up the story that I was that I was a burglar. Yeah, yeah, he showed it and then come to find out because I also spoke to a couple other people in that community, and they their houses were being broken into.

 

So he didn't just make it up wrong asleep, but at the same time, I left my egg. So that was the other thing too is the cop had my door tag. And I asked him, I said, well, you been on the job. He said, you're gonna die like seven years at that point. And I'm like, Well, what was the last time a criminal left their phone number, their name and phone number at the door? When was the last time? I mean, I get it. I know, criminals may not be the brightest bulbs on the tree.

 

And I love my name and my phone number. Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious. Yeah, she called me that's how you I was at Whitney. So she called me and ask me was I still in the neighborhood? I said, Yes. I'm actually having dinner. I'm up here at Wendy's. And I'll be right back over to you. And that's actually

 

Roy Barker  31:00

how I figured out I was at Wendy's. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And, you know, nowadays, with all these cameras and things, because it's in my neighborhood, this is something I see a lot of is people come up, knock on the door, and then no answer, then they start trying to, you know, to see if it's open or not, maybe decking a window out. So yeah, I can only imagine, you know, what people might have thought, you know, somebody?

 

Yeah, it's, it could be different, too. We are just not used, I'm not used to door to door people anymore. Now. So the 70s and 80s, we had a lot more of that, you know, the fuller brush, man. And then, you know, even in the early 2000s, a guy this special cleaning sauce that he was coming up knocking door to door to, but they, you know, they physically had something in their hand like they were trying to sell whereas you know, us like, Well, you know, I got a slick that's about all I've got my hand, so

 

Wendell  31:56

to speak to So two things that that reminds me of not my story. But I was a part of it. You talk about a different point in door to door sales. I remember still being maybe a high school age kid. And this guy comes and he was a vacuum salesman. And this gentleman proceeded to vacuum and talk about this vacuum. And again, I was high school.

 

So like when I think about it now. It's even sillier. And when my mother said no, he proceeded to beat my mother because he needed one more sale in order to hit whatever goal he needed for the week or whatever it was right. Like all the spiel that is his oldest time. Yeah. And needless to say, my mother didn't purchase the vacuum. She was actually quite offended that he proceeded to beggar for money. I think the vacuum was, let's say, 1000 or $2,000. Wow. Exactly. Yeah. But but but for you, we'll break it up into four easy payments. So you can you can eat a hamburger today and pay for it tomorrow. Yeah. So I and and the other.

 

The other thing too, that Jeremy think about when you say like, you're not you said door to door. Like I said, in New York City, you don't require any licenses in order to not in other parts of the country. And even in upstate New York, you actually have to have certain permissions from local ordinances to be allowed to solicit in the community. So and it's also you know, I'm sure because of the 80s and even early 90s, when, just like, certain things had to change with a cell phone companies.

 

Because of slamming, right, like, you know, when 15 you'd be paying 20 people for the same phone line, because everyone would call in, you know, we believe MCI at the time, and so and so at the time, why would they cheat us? So now you're paying for regional, local, and long distance? Right? Wasn't? Isn't that where you used

 

Roy Barker  33:48

to work? Guys? Yeah, yeah.

 

Wendell  33:50

So but you got to think for that same reason, because of something similar to slamming with with the telephone service. In other parts of the country, you have to have in the door to door ups actually have to carry whatever license or permission that is given. Otherwise, someone does call the police. They don't even say that you're breaking the law. They just let them know that you're soliciting in their community you're not allowed to so it is quite interesting. When you mentioned that I didn't really think of that as well.

 

Roy Barker  34:16

Yeah, yeah. Cuz I think here you know, most cities have that no solicit you can get permits to do it. But, you know, one thing I talked to, you know, like, service companies that have a reason to be in somebody's home in a neighborhood usually they're in a truck that's labeled But no, that's one thing I do is I don't necessarily say you need to not. Because you can get yourself in a little bit of trouble.

 

But at least go to these doors on either side of the house and just leave a card I mean, it's so it's kind of easy marketing, you know. While you're there to leave something on the door for people but it's just interesting because I you know, when I first started when I was a teenager. We had to clean out some barns and. You know, we were hauling this stuff out to the pasture and throwing it, it was a lot of work.

 

And finally, somehow me and a friend of mine figured out, we could package this and sell it. And, you know, instead of just sitting on the corner, waiting for people to come by, we did that we drive around the neighborhoods, and back in that day, not a lot of the wood privacy fences, more of the chain link. And so we could see in people's backyards, and we would try to find people that either had really nice flower gardens or vegetable gardens, and we'd go up, knock on the door and say, Hey, you know, we've got some outfit, you know, clean fertilizer here. It will sell you. And, you know, we had a really good little, little hustle there for a couple years. You know, because one one thing people just I think they felt sorry for us like these kids out hustling fertilizer, we're gonna sell it.

 

But you know, the thing is, we were taking it to their front door, we would all it back there forum, they weren't having to do anything. But, you know, I guess I just was never, I never gave it a lot of thought it was just knock on the door. They either want this or they don't you know, I sometimes we had to, the only objection we would have to handle would be you know, now these horses, they've been out in the pasture eaten all kinds of weeds, and wild grass, then, you know, they're gonna transfer that to our garden.

 

And so we could be like, No, these are barn, you know, barn Kip oak fed, they're not out grazing the past year. A few objections, but you know, for the main part is like, whatever, they didn't want it. We were off. You know, we didn't I didn't have time to sit there and argue with them or feel bad about it. It's like, you know, you don't want it. And there's a good book about that, too. It's, it's called Getting to know, because in Oh, because sometimes, if you just get to somebody like No, I don't want it, then he can you can feel good about moving on.

 

In some services. Now, you know, you always want to ask why, you know, try to handle those objections. But a lot of times, you know, it's like, you can I can stand here sparring with you for 30 minutes or an hour? And you still say no, not because you don't need it? Maybe not because you don't want it maybe can't even afford it. And that, you know, I think that's the the empathy as salespeople we have to have sometimes is that, you know, we don't know the situation. So.

 

Wendell  37:18

So this same manager, that I'm going to send this this podcast to, because I don't I don't send too much, but I'm going to kind of miss the short, because because he I mean, he was the Trailblazer to my sales career, right? Like he, he pushed me really hard, because he saw that I was a talker, but I didn't know much about sales. But he used to always say and I don't know if it's a full statement to say now, but he's always said you can't you can't sell poverty or ignorance, right?

 

Like, if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. or unwilling to digest the information that I'm sharing with you, I can't sell it to you either. I those are two objectives you just can't overcome sometimes there's nothing you can do. Something else that the other the other sales story to about about the door door person here in Houston. In fact, um, I had someone knock on the door was like last week, it was like last week and this guy, it was I mean, let's see, I didn't see the truck or anything anyway, and knock on the door, open the door, and he's got his gas Polo on, it's got the company energy company.

 

And he's first thing he says is, Hey, I was just three houses down at so and so Rodriguez his house, and they just signed up. I just wanted to let you know, because we're doing some really cool stuff in the neighborhood. I stopped them when I say I was just explaining to someone that this is door to door sales one on one, whoever trained you was fantastic. And I'm I'm enamored of the five to 10 years later, we're still doing the same spiel, right, because that was one of the things my managers used to preach upon us. We used to have to carry what he suggested, does have to imply that I was not following the rules. But he suggested strongly that we would carry old order forms, filled out order forms, and he would fold over the bottom so that you could actually see how big his sack was. This was his game.

 

And what he would do is and I knocked with him a few times. And what he would do is he would like while he was talking to you like let's say he had to get that slick. He would do it rifle through the old order form. So again, so he could really emphasize the fact that you were not the first one he signed up. So the first thing this guy does is tell me about somebody three houses down. Yeah, smiling and I go like Listen, man, whatever you say we're selling energy. And we're not in the market for it. So you know, my but thank you. Yeah, man.

 

It was so it was it was funny, because my response, I guess was different than most. So he didn't even really know where to go from there. Yeah, that's literally what I said to I was like, man, I was I literally was just telling someone about The you don't want to be the inclusionary opening statement in door to door sales. It doesn't necessarily work in other spaces. But when is door to door because like you said, you're in person and you're in a community, if I know Roy's neighbor, I can talk about where his neighbor was comfortable. Yeah, exactly. Right now, I'm not a stranger at the door. I was just at Pam's house, right? Pam trusted me. You're not going to trust me?

 

Roy Barker  40:27

Right? You know,

 

Wendell  40:27

but it was never really my thing. I am not. I am a traditional York New Yorker. So I am skeptical of most things, right? Like, I don't believe it's raining until I get wet. So, you know, that was never my way of selling. I was always talking about you. Right, like, and even to this day, I think. And I say this very openly to anyone, right. So thinking about it sounds so bad. But most things is that same managers always everything's a sale. Right.

 

And I don't think that's necessarily true. I think that's a little bit too transactional. But all the skills that I've learned and report building as a human I gathered and selling, right. So you know, just to give the example, I still remember some of the things that were in the background that were in your background, the first time we spoke, because at some point, I may ask you a question six months from now, about something that you mentioned, the very first conversation, I'm not selling you anything. But those are the report building skills that I learned that just allow for me to be able to have long standing relationships with a lot of different types of people.

 

Because, you know, when I was at that conference last week, a young lady mentioned on Tuesday that her back was hurting. She had arthritis in her back. I saw on Thursday, the first question I asked was, I was a backfill, right? Not because of anything other than the rapport skills that I built, I can go to door because I never was the person I was trying to get you to believe that Pam signed up already, because he didn't have an order form or anything he was reading off of his lead sheet.

 

Roy Barker  42:01

Well, you know, that's one thing we talked about a lot with, with cold calling, especially is you have to be you have to listen number one, you know, seek to understand that's my new new saying, I just love that, because it's really good. Yeah, yeah, we have to listen, because it makes for thoughtful follow up.

 

And instead of me calling you up and saying, hey, Wendell, this is Roy. You know, we talked last week, are you ready to buy it? Gotcha. That's still drives me insane. Like this is 2021. Surely we can do better. Right? Exactly, exactly. You know, I can call you know, I would follow up say, Hey, I know you were out of town in Miami last week, having some fun, How was your trip, you know, conversation. We just don't always have to go for the juggler.

 

I know, people want to cut that time down. But people want to buy from people that they like and people that they feel like represent themselves that they've seen in the mirror. So if we can build a rapport, I still may not close you today, but you're gonna remember, hey, you know, kind of friendly with this guy. And so I think that goes such a long way is just being observant to take notes, oh, my God, take a note, you know, have a notepad if you're doing it, you know, put it in your CRM.

 

Another thing, you know, that I get all crazy about is people not using CRM. And this is the exact reason why we should because I can take notes down like, okay, Wendell just told me that he took a trip to Miami last week, and so I can get some mileage out of that. And then, you know, just anything else that you pick up in the conversation to circle back around, we'll follow up.

 

Wendell  43:42

I'm gonna I'm cringing only because I am. So my my biggest, biggest, biggest hurdle and all sales is the paperwork, right? So we didn't have a CRM at the very first company that I worked for, we didn't have our CRM was a printout of an Excel sheet. That was our CRM, and their measurement for success. And using it was, if you jotted down stuff on it, and what I learned was they didn't look at it anyway. But if you brought back a blank one, especially with no sales, they assumed you never worked. Exactly. I started working at another company.

 

Um, they actually had this app that they built specific for their sales team. That was terrible. I never used it, because it took too long in between doors to disposition, the sale, right? I use a couple of CRMs in my own in my own business. And the toughest thing for me was always taking the time to write these things down. I have a terrible habit. That's why I cringe because you're right, right. Like being able to access that information readily is probably the most important piece to it, especially if it's a sales process.

 

If it's a sales cycle, right? It's no different than remembering or writing now someone's birthday. It's not necessarily it's just is essential, right? Like, you know, in our phones do so many different things now and all the technologies that we have linked to our phones, where even if a CRM isn't isn't your favorite thing, most cell phones actually have a note section. So even if you're saving people's phone numbers that you've had a tangible conversation with, you can write it in there. But I only cringe because you're wrong. Just because I know how much I don't like doing that part.

 

I just get in so much every sales job that was not my own. Every manager is always like, Man, you don't you just you just refuse to do the paperwork. Like Yeah, I don't, I don't like it. Yeah, somebody else do it. I'll tell you everything. But I don't know. I don't want to do it.

 

Roy Barker  45:36

Well, you know, you have to do is there's a line between, you know, good sales, people are people person and they want you know, like yourself, they want to talk and be interactive. They don't want to write stuff down, and they don't want to be analytical, that's for somebody else. And then, you know, then there's people like myself that are probably more analytical, but you know, I try to force myself to do that, like, you know.

 

Just, it's when you're cold calling, especially, you know, you just pop open a screen and be taken some notes, but it's so to me, it's so helpful. But yeah, you're not the first I mean, sales people when you bring that up, like, oh, like, you know, the arrow. got ready. Another one. I remember when I worked for this other cable company and forgive me for just jumping on top of their CRM ACU Salesforce. Have you ever used Salesforce? Yes, it was way too complicated. Oh, my goodness,

 

Wendell  46:29

Salesforce, we have an iPad. And this was many generations ago. So this iPad, you would click the customer because it was it was maybe give you customer for per se, it will give you address info. So if we went to 123 Main Street, I could, I would know how many people's names this service was in. I could tell you that john smith, five years ago, ended up in crew accruing a balance of $5,000 in cable service, how I don't know. But he was able to get to $5,000 in cable service and all his other I mean, just so much data.

 

I remember the first time I actually messed with the CRM in the field, because I was another company, the managers always mad at me because I would never disposition because they would, that's how he would track if you were in the field. So I wouldn't disposition is at the end of the day, I would just make a like little little note on a piece of papers that would give us paper. So we just make notes and our disposition at the end of the day. But they didn't want that because it couldn't tell how long you've been in the field.

 

Yeah, so I remember I came to him, I said, you know, one struggle for me is I got to scroll. Again, because I'm about efficiency when I'm when I'm selling. So even when he was a cold calling, I average. I'm gonna come back to that. I'll tell you guys data stores real quick. So, um, I remember going to my manager, and he couldn't do anything about it. Because you know, he was lower management, middle management.

 

And I'm, like, you know, maybe you can talk to somebody and let them know, there's got to be some parameters inside of the master self Salesforce suite that lets you guys dumb it down for the people in the field. Because I don't, I don't want to. I don't want to scroll twice in order to get to where I got to be. I'm trying to hurry to get to the next door. This disposition is fun for y'all. But I need my sales. Right? The reality is, it doesn't sound like a lot until you knock 100 doors, right?

 

So if we do 100 doors, and each door takes a minute, that's 100 minutes of my day that I don't get back. Right. That's how many doors that I miss. Yeah. Right. Like those are the things that and again, that's my way of being lazy on the other side, right is I make it all about the sales, right? So that hopefully understands, but needless to say, they did not they were a huge company using Salesforce at an enterprise level. And they were not in a hurry to switch anything out on that.

 

Roy Barker  48:55

Yeah, that's what I tell people you know, there's so many out there and I don't mind saying I went through like five or six before I found one that was you know, simplistic enough for me to use but yet and competent, you know, I guess complicated enough it captured all the information I needed to you in that you know and that is a definite issue about you know, we have to make it easy on sales, especially people out in the field that you know, weeks.

 

We're expecting people to keep moving but yet then I'm asking you pull over and take 10 minutes to you know, fill something out. We just have to try to make it as easy as possible. One thing else I was gonna ask you about is packages you mentioned on your slick you had three packages. Yeah, so did they design that for your sweet spot was that middle package? You know, you had the low one that probably had like, four stations on it that cost an arm and leg and then that top one is like you know, 12 $100 a month, that middle when there's like you know 250 channels for $80 a month.

 

Wendell  49:56

So two things I have been chasing the package the permit package names ever since their packages, right? Because they had good, better best, you can't get better at this. I've never seen better descriptions, right? Because you got the good, the better the best. That's there's no other way to describe it. And to answer your question no actually. So because, and I've already settings, I was trying not to be brand specific, but because I was selling five sunrise a file.

 

The price point that they entered into New York with was 6999 at the time, so they were dirt cheap in comparison to at the time Time Warner. Yeah, so Time Warner Cable, I mean, a single box, Time Warner account at that time was going to run you at least $120 a month. So at $70, no boxes, were already ahead of the curve. Now, what we would do is because in this it was actually kind of inverted. So what what, what, what bad managers will tell us was to start with was to tell them it was 69, and not assess the need of the customer.

 

So the bad ones are telling us to start there and then just build your boxes. But what would happen is, you may get to a certain turning point, because it was 6999 and 129. So you will get to a certain turning point where if they got the ultimate, which included all the channels, all the premium channels, NFL redzone plus the three boxes for the same basic service they had with Time Warner, they would still sometimes either balance out or be cheaper.

 

Yeah, not more at that time is very expensive. So it really and this is something I always find interesting, was it, you know, like monopolies in this country, a very subjective, like, telecom is a monopoly. But it's a subject of Monopoly because of the way that things were written many, many moons ago. So like, you know, the way that the way that the country is broken up, according to telecom companies, you know, very rarely Are you seeing two different coaxial companies in the same market. Right. So part of that allows for that one coaxial company to charge you how they feel, you know, you really don't have an option.

 

So when file started emerging into New York, it was almost a breath of fresh air because it was only Time Warner or satellite, whereas this was, it was fiber coaxial ish rags, you still had codecs in the home. But it allowed for us to be able to break that mold. So for us, it was a little different. And that middle package was actually the crappiest because it puts you in no man's land. Like it was, like the basic was for people who really didn't care too much about TV.

 

But the internet was leagues faster than Time Warner, whereas the ultimate was the TV junkie. And it had the fastest, right, but the middle was like this odd like it. That was actually the one that was more like interesting. Yeah, like you would get like USA and for family channels, but not ESPN, you know, like it was it was odd, like it was it was it was an odd mishmash of channels, and it had medium speed. And especially at that price point, because of how much people were accustomed to paying for cable most of them were just willing to pay to get everything for the price they

 

Roy Barker  53:27

were paying for nothing. Right right.

 

Wendell  53:29

I had a lot of people who upgraded to all the channels just because their three boxes with DVR or whatever it was at the time, you know, was a $300 bill whereas all in most people who got ultimates we had you know a two or three bedroom home you know plus living room there were somewhere topping out somewhere around 230 Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  53:50

Wow. Yeah, that's kind of a hot button for me. I spent a lot of time you know, about 20 years with at&t on the on the phone side so that actually pre enter internet was coming out but it was still dial debate so that back in that day, but you know, and we've been having an issue with our service, I am not going to get all in slamming anybody but what I'm saying is that you know, with the thing is a telecom bill in 96. We deregulate instead, okay, anybody service can ride over anybody else's cable, which is awesome. But if it's my cable and I'm selling Wendell service over my cable, how motivated it my to go out and fix my cable, where are they?

 

Wendell  54:38

Right, exactly. And again, like you said, not to fall totally off the sales cliff. But something else that was interesting about a lot of industries is they give you that deregulation of the industry, but at the same time, something called rent rent seeking, which is almost lobbying legislation to make it to where even though it's an Open Market, the barrier for entry is very difficult. Yeah, yeah.

 

Right. So like, in recent years, we've seen more cell phone companies emerge, rightly like now we've got several options. Whereas like you said, once upon a time, it was a big three or you were really it was only two? Well, no, it was three. It was three, just spring. Yeah. at&t and Verizon. Those are your big three, there's only options you had. And it's been a few, right? Because you remember, singular is a in an at&t took them? Right.

 

But the point and again, not going too far off is you're absolutely right, is having a third party on their lines. It does give this still gives the same leverage of, well, I don't know who's gonna fix it, because that's not my service. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  55:45

And you know, what we did in Texas, I think is an awesome thing that, you know, I've come in lobbying for on the phone side is that when we deregulated power, we created a company that took care of the lines, they take care of all the lines everywhere, right? Now, you can go buy your power from whatever generator, you want to,

 

Wendell  56:05

you know, pull other episode on energy companies in Texas, and how confusing it is for non Texas.

 

Roy Barker  56:13

So yeah, and I just, yeah, I hate to get off track, but I just feel like, you know, we've we could ever get to that point where we could have this company that that took care of our backbone infrastructure, and then you can buy your servers from whoever, anyways, anyway. Well,

 

Wendell  56:28

I mean, it's a great point. So to get us back on topic, with the, the Dallas data center, which is what I was telling you about before we went live, right? The like that was a whole other nuance, right? Because I had b2b sales experience, at that point, do b2b, cold calling sales experience. So just to kind of track it, I do door to door for horizon, I actually end up going over to Time Warner because the people who had the contract at Verizon, for whatever reason, the lead started getting crazy.

 

Like they were, they were only given us a third of the of the information. It was bad. Time Warner ended up contracting with Time Warner, in between that time I sold on merchant processing, like the terminals where you swipe the cards, right? Yeah, sold that for some time sold all kinds of things. But that was a b2b thing. And within that was working capital. Right. And again, like you said, not to slam but you know, it's basically like a, like a payday loan for businesses. I don't know if you're familiar with, with those kind of loans. So what is what it is, is one at the rate is like, anywhere between 30 to 50%. Right, so we're already talking legal loan shark,

 

Roy Barker  57:46

right, right, right. Wow.

 

Wendell  57:48

Yeah, legal loan shark, right. Because in most states, a personal loan 29.99 is usually to max out. Yeah, most of these, right, very rarely really to go higher than that, when it comes to a loan, but we're for b2b loan, they usually call it working capital, but this is what this company did. And they may have changed the regulations on how high you can go on the interest. But the payback would be 30 to 50%, on on most good loans. Wow. And it would be based on your credit card transactions. So I sold that I only sold that portion towards the end of my tenure in that industry. And that's when I learned that it was rough, because there's a certain niche industry that needs it more often than not, it's actually restaurants, beating the food industry, because their the way they operate is so lean.

 

And it's actually not only Leanne, but they need a lot of capital, right, they need a lot of cash on hand, to be able to function within vendors. So all those things allow for working capital spaces to be very interesting. also learned about batching out right, like I don't know, if you do any, any credit card processing, but you know, like batching out. And once upon a time, I don't know how long you've been doing. He was really, it was really my statement. Once upon a time, you'd have to wait 48 hours in order to get your batch out. Whereas now there really isn't a company that will give it to you tomorrow, or, for that matter for an additional 1%.

 

But yeah, we'll start from the top. So I do that. And then I get really deep into into b2b selling only websites for some time, things slow down, and I get a job. Alright, this is a regular wage job plus commission, which is which was what Time Warner was, but the the salary at that time was 40k. So it really wasn't that bad, right? Like, but this one was in this city minimum wage, whatever it was, let's just say, let's say I was making $7 an hour, right? Completely different pay scale. So my money really needs me needs to be made on commission. Speaking to the to the amount of calls you can make in a day.

 

So my first day I've never really I've never done business to customer business to consumer, right. And that not not cold calling anyway. So I'm I'm trying to make Do this they've got probably about this much of script, right? Like this is almost scripted. And I'm trying to find the answer because they they're this company's been around since the 80s. So they know all the rebuttals, right? So they're, you're supposed to flip to this section. And then when they say this, you can go back up to that, right. And this is I mean, I was so stressed the first couple of days. Yeah. So I'm going, I go talk to the manager, and I'm like, Listen, this isn't gonna work, right? Like I, I'm a conversation. And so let me learn what the objections are. And I can walk, I can walk for him, but I can't go. Okay, Roy, why don't you want tickets today?

 

He said, Oh, it's up here. Okay. Okay, everyone feels this way. But let me tell you the package is really just not so painful. I mean, that was a it was a great script for someone, because they had all the rebuttals I've never seen such a robust rebuttal space. But again, I got some experience. So my very first week there, a manager pulls me to the side. And she goes, how are you making so many calls because they couldn't track the length of the calls, but they can see how many calls you've made. It wasn't until the week after that, that the range of the time of the calls. So what I told her was what I learned when I used to do b2b for myself, when I was on the websites was, after three rings, people usually aren't answering anyway.

 

So just hang up a call the next person, right, there's no point waiting to the voicemail comes on, you don't leave. This makes sense. There's just three rings move on three rings move on. And she goes, I've never thought to do and this woman, she had a couple of years of experience in this specific space. And she goes, I've never thought to do that. And I again, go back to that with the efficiency, right? Like I was dialing almost twice as fast as most of my peers in the office, because everyone waited until the voicemail, right? And again, for me, all the other things are even with that script I mentioned, you got to know let me leave the script alone, because it was painful for me. But all the other things, it's always about just the efficiency in the sale.

 

Right? Like if you want sales, especially if you see someone who has personality, I think I have personality. Suppose when you see some big web person, I let them be themselves? Because if the answer is the sale, everything else are coming together. The other part two debt sale, which was hilarious, because I didn't get to explain to them all the things I did prior, they use no sales experience, the young lady explained to me that the toughest part of the sale will be when you ask for the credit card information.

 

And I said to her, I said well, it's during training, I said, Well, I'm just gonna tell you, I used to get data versus socials at the door. So these are people who more often than not bought tickets from this company previously, really up make sure that we had to process it with new credit card information. That's easy. They already know that this is happening. I was going to strangers doors randomly, Saturday. And I know that today's the day you're going to give a stranger, your social security number.

 

Roy Barker  1:03:07

Oh my God, that's crazy. So I was just gonna I know it's a little different with the door to door and making cold calls. But what's your opinion on selling b2c versus b2b? You know, there's a lot, a lot of variables and I know, quote, the calling versus in person, you know, even makes it a little bit more different. But Which do you like to do better?

 

Wendell  1:03:31

I'm trying to think so let me just caveat this with I may have like I did, door to door for political company for for the working families party. I'm on their political group there. It's a small independent group. And I don't I didn't have their beliefs, but they were paying. So at this time, I was like 1819 years old, maybe even 17. And I did knock doors for them briefly. And that was before my my, my career started. So technically, that was the first and I didn't look at it as sales because we just needed to get them to sign a petition.

 

Yeah. So I guess that may have been BTC ish, right. But to answer your question, my personal thought is I really enjoy b2b. And I am biased because it's, you know, it's my bread and butter now, but I include b2b only because I feel like and I've never sold anything that had a long term shelf life on the consumer side. But because of what I do now, I enjoy because of the report I built, right, like most of my clients I've had for years, like I was explaining to you before, the one young lady that I held her conference down and I worked for her at our conference down in Miami this past week.

 

I've known her for 10 years. I mean, that's kind of like, you know, most of my clients, of course, I get new ones, but once they're in I know them for years, right? Like I don't, I can't remember the last, like true client that I've had. And that wasn't expected to be a one off job. I didn't know for at least two or three years. So for me to be in works, I enjoy it more because I end up building long standing relationships, these people, a lot of good again, but I am skewed right, because that is where my bread and butter is now, but I've also never sold anything to consumers that had a long shelf life, right?

 

Like maybe if I was a sales, if I was a car salesman, I may have long standing relationships, you know, but again, like we talked about all sorts of long created equals when I say that, I think, you know, if I sold a convertible or coupe to someone, you know, especially in the younger years, and I'm staying in the industry. I'm always talking to you, because at some point, you may grow into a family, and I'm hoping if I sold you a coupe, I'm hoping to sell you the minivan at some point. Exactly. You know, but again, everybody doesn't say anything like that. So that would be my only wish is that

 

Roy Barker  1:05:58

and it, you know, kind of on that line of thinking too, is that all all your friends usually drive cars, too. So it's, it's true. For a lot of things, a lot of reasons. Exactly. Well, Wendell, I appreciate I know we've gone way over but

 

Wendell  1:06:13

I didn't know I don't have any time in front of me. Again, we're gonna talk about sales until I'm blue in the face on two things. And forgive me for cutting off your exit. But you don't two things that I love. Talking about when it comes to just random things in the world is basketball and sales. Those are the two things I could talk until I'm blue in the face. I don't even live in the town. I look up in the suns Damn.

 

Roy Barker  1:06:36

Well, it's been interesting. And that's why I said that's why I had to get you on because it's it's an It's a unique experience that I think, you know, sometimes we think that when we walk into an employer, and they ask us to pick up the phone, we think, oh, how tough is that. And now that that's nothing happened to, you know, be door to door in any environment, that door to door in New York City, adds just a little bit of flavor to that.

 

So I appreciate you coming back on and talking with us about that. And so yeah, and like I said, Be sure there's another episode where we talk more about local SEO. Catch Wendell on that one, too. But tell everybody before we get out of here tell everybody of course, how can they reach? You know, who do you like to work with? What can you do for them? How can they reach out and get a hold of you?

 

Wendell  1:07:22

Yes, sir. So the best way to reach me is my email and you know, continue with my my silliness by email is too long, right. So that's why I tell people LinkedIn, because it's my first name has 11 letters, and then Jordan Marketing Consultants is forever. So it's [email protected]. But that's a mouthful. So if you just find me on LinkedIn, there's always that's always a great way to reach me. As you mentioned in the beginning, my ideal client is a local was a local business, right?

 

Someone that has a local service area, who is looking to grow in a local or regional space, right, so someone that you know, understands what local is, or would like to understand better, but local SEO looks like and even what SEO looks like, but a lot of my favorites are those local businesses to go back to the other episodes, and people have to watch and listen to pizza shops. Right?

 

Roy Barker  1:08:13

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I was hungry after we got through that episode using the pizza shops. It's important, I think it's important for you know, our bricks and mortars, we got to compete against you know, virtual in some instances, but we also need new and efficient ways. I mean, the days of the newspapers pretty much gone I don't know many people that really take one we see some online but you know, the old traditional channels of marketing of brick and mortar have changed. So we got to learn to do to you put the local SEO to work for so.

 

Alright, well, thanks again. I certainly do appreciate it. Thank you. You bet. Of course. You can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com we're on all the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, if we're not a one that you listen to please reach out. Be glad to get you get it added to make it easier for you to listen to us. Also on major social media, probably Instagram is the most used reach out there. We'd love to interact with you and a video of this will go up when the episode goes live. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.

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Take Your Employee Benefits and HR Function To The Next Level Featuring Lauren Winans

In today's environment, employee benefits make the difference in attracting great prospects and retaining great employees. What are good benefits? What are prospects and employees interested in? What about other HR policies and procedures. You can get all the right answers by reaching out to firms that do this every day and have specialized knowledge in HR.

About Lauren

Lauren Winans is the Chief Executive Officer and Principal HR Consultant for Next Level Benefits, an HR consulting practice offering clients access to HR professionals for both short-term and long-term projects. With 20 years of human resources and employee benefits experience, Winans possesses a deep expertise of HR best practices and what resonates with employees. She founded Next Level Benefits in 2019, offering HR teams access to former corporate HR professionals on-demand when they need them most.

Winans’ experiences at various global, multi-generational, geographically dispersed organizations have prepared her well for assisting clients of all sizes and from any industry.  Prior to becoming CEO of Next Level Benefits, Winans served as a senior HR leader and responsibly managed all aspects of health, welfare, absence management, and retirement at General Nutrition Centers, American Eagle Outfitters, and CONSOL Energy. While working for Highmark Blue Cross Blue Shield, Winans acquired an extensive knowledge of the health insurance industry.

Throughout her career, Winans has been focused on improving culture and enhancing the total rewards offered at the companies she has worked for and provided guidance to.  She is strategically focused yet tactically proficient, and brings a holistic perspective to each client project.  

Winans is a member of the Business Journals Leadership Trust, a non-profit board member, and an active volunteer for patient advocacy. She is also a graduate of Penn State University with a Bachelor of Science in Marketing and Management and Robert Morris University with a Master’s in Business Administration. 

About Next Level Benefits

Next Level Benefits provides HR consultation, freelancers, and project managers for your team. Each team member has at least 20 years of corporate HR experience from such companies as American Eagle Outfitters, Ariba, Ascena, Citigroup, GNC, Hess, IBM, Levi Strauss, Netflix, TBC Corporation, and U.S. Airways. Led by Lauren Winans, Next Level Benefits temporarily fills in the gaps on your team.

Next Level Benefits can help develop sustainable HR strategies to align your company’s brand, mission, and organizational goals. They can create HR communications plans that educate and engage as well as provide HR consulting. They can fill in gaps and partner with existing teams to accelerate progress, assess current processes, develop roadmaps, and draft HR process manuals to train your existing staff. Next Level Benefits can lead planned or unplanned projects such as new vendor implementations, audits, and M&A activity.

www.nlbenefits.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Full Transcript Below

Take Your Employee Benefits and HR Function To The Next Level Featuring Lauren Winans

Thu, 7/15 12:05PM • 1:02:05

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

work, employees, hr, employers, organization, people, pandemic, opportunities, important, benefits, remote, folks, workforce, feel, industries, step, job, reach, concern, perspective

SPEAKERS

Lauren, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, we are the podcast that brings you a very wide variety of guests that can speak to a lot of diverse topics today is no different. We're excited to have Lauren Winans. She is the chief executive officer and principal HR consultant for Next Level Benefits, an HR consulting practice offering clients access to HR professionals for both short term and long term projects with 20 years of human resources and employee benefits experience she possesses possesses a deep experience, excuse me had deep expertise of HR best practices, and what resonates with employees, she founded Next Level Benefits in 2019, offering HR teams access to former corporate HR professionals on demand when they need them most. Lauren thanks so much for taking time out of your day, and welcome to the show.  Thank you, Roy really happy to be chatting with you today,  we're gonna delve into this, you know, HR, I think this is such an awesome time to be talking about, you know, attracting retaining employees, and how we can do that, you know, through a combination of lots of different things and benefits is one of those. But before we do kind of talk, tell us a little bit about your journey, you know, as being an HR, something you've thought about, since you were a little kid, did you get into a job and just kind of fall into that, you know, how does that come about?

 

Lauren  01:35

I fell into it, you know, I think much like most people, you know, kind of fall into, you know, whatever it is that they end up doing with their lives. So, yeah, I started out actually working at a health insurance company early in my career. So I learned everything you could want to know about medical insurance. And when I couldn't take it any more of what I had learned at all, I decided to kind of move on to the employer side of things and work, joined an organization as an entry level Benefits Administrator, and really kind of, you know, started my HR journey from there, and it's been, you know, 20 years now, of being within the HR function. You know, like I said, you know, primarily focused on employee benefits, but, you know, a lot of other areas of HR kind of fall within my wheelhouse all the different disciplines of HR, including recruiting and talent management, compensation, you know, HR, leadership, organizational development, all of these different areas kind of converge and come together, you know, to really kind of create the best employee experience. And that's really what I've been focused on for my entire career, and I'm really happy to have had the opportunity to fall into HR because it is, it is a really, you know, great industry to kind of work within. It's really, you know, it's necessary across all industries.

 

Roy Barker  03:09

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it kind of relates back to the health insurance days, I'm sure that you know, it's always changed. And the minute you think you're on top of something, new rules, regulations, or even employee wants, employer wants, demands, all of those things play into an ever changing field. You mentioned are I mentioned in your intro that you do on demand, so for just not for, you know, we want to talk about some other things, but I just want to clarify that. So, growing company that may not can afford a full time HR professional, they can reach out to y'all and get kind of fractional help. Is that correct?

 

Lauren  03:48

Absolutely. Yeah, fractional interim services is really kind of our sweet spot, we have a lot of folks on staff that have at least 20 years of, of HR experience, just like myself, in many cases more than you, they can really step in and help in a variety of different capacities. And from an on demand perspective. You know, there's there's could be projects that come up that are unexpected, where you just need some extra hands. You know, it could be that, you know, you have an open position, or you have someone out on maternity leave or leave of absence, and you really need a pinch hitter just for a handful of weeks or months. All those sorts of things are things that we can help with on an on demand basis. Yeah,

 

Roy Barker  04:31

I think that's a, you know, one of the benefits about the gig economy and of course, about this electronic age is that is so valuable to people because I mean, you know, it's probably been going on for five or 10 years, but not that prevalent, but back in the day, it's like if you couldn't afford the full time professional, you just had to do without or muddle through. So I think that such a valuable offering to growing businesses or you know, even people that are just Even if they want to stay small, that they can reach out, get that professional help and not have to, you know, be out the entire salary for somebody.

 

Lauren  05:09

Yeah, and, you know, honestly, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start the consulting firm is, you know, I really have a passion for what I do. And I just wanted to be able to help more employers and more HR teams and more business owners, you know, with my skill set, so it's a great way of just to kind of, you know, help out those who, you know, might not necessarily have, you know, our level of expertise, we can jump right in, get started, you know, not have to spend a lot of time figuring out what next steps to take, because we've been there, we've, we've done that. And it's a great way to kind of, you know, leverage our experiences working with those who might not necessarily have the sort of expertise in house.

 

Roy Barker  05:49

Yeah, and it's a, just like we talked about earlier, there's so many components to it, that it's just much better to reach out, get a little professional help. Because what I found is, you know, when we skimp on these types of things, we eventually end up paying more for either. So it's always,

 

Lauren  06:08

always, always especially, you know, there's a lot of compliance potholes when it comes to HR. And so yeah, there's, you definitely want to make sure you're doing the right things in the right ways.

 

Roy Barker  06:18

Yeah. And the other thing too, for somebody like yourself, it's probably easier to manage, when it's not an emergency or not a crisis than trying to sort out that crisis situation. So for sure,

 

Lauren  06:31

for sure. Yeah, I've been in situations where, you know, Department of Labor audits, and, you know, HIPAA compliance audits, and all sorts of things that you kind of fall into over the course of your career. And yes, it is much easier to do it right from the beginning, then to do it wrong.

 

Roy Barker  06:51

Well, let's jump into the benefit side of this, because, you know, we're in a, I don't know, if it's unprecedented, I hate to say that just yet, but we could be in a very unprecedented time with this, the work from home issue that some people are like, Hey, I'm not going back. But you know, also it's like, what, with people more hesitant to pay more money, you know, they try to make up for it in this benefits packages, and different things like that. So what's what's, what's your view of, of our world? Right, this moment, you know, coming out of the pandemic, and trying to navigate that process? Yeah, you

 

Lauren  07:31

know, I think that, you know, we have a variety of different, you know, issues and concerns kind of coming together at the same time. And so, you know, I think there's a lot of folks that might, you know, want to blame the workforce shortage on or the turnover tsunami, which I keep hearing, as a great, you know, great moniker for it. You know, they want to blame it on the pandemic, or they want to blame it directly on increased unemployment benefit levels, and amounts that are, you know, getting issued to those who have open claims right now. And I totally agree that those are two, you know, contributing factors. But I think there's also a few other things happening here. And, you know, there's also, we have, you know, baby boomers that may have accelerated their retirement for a variety of reasons, you know, we have, you know, folks that are coming out of college, that aren't necessarily looking for entry level or hourly positions they want, you know, they want a better position coming out of school than maybe is available. You know, and ultimately, I think there's folks who have been working for home from home for a while now, you know, at least almost a couple years at this point, who don't see a reason to have to go back into the office, and they're going to look for, you know, an employer that is going to be flexible with them, so they can continue the flexible lifestyle that they've been living for the past couple of years. So I think all of these different things are really coming to a head all at the same time, which is really, you know, a shame, but also, I think it's accelerating the future of work at the same time. So, you know, part of me is excited to see where this, you know, leads the workforce, generally speaking, but the other side of me is really feels for employers who are having a really hard time, you know, staffing positions, keeping either businesses open in some cases. You know, I think it's, it's a critical issue right now, I think there's a lot of different ways to tackle it. But I think there's a lot of different factors at play as well.

 

Roy Barker  09:35

And you mentioned the, you know, the people leave in the workforce, that's something I've heard a lot about lately is just that there's so many people that have decided to retire, or they've made a conscious choice that because of vaccination rates, not being where they need to be, if they're vulnerable, especially it's like I'm just gonna set this one out and stay home or, you know, go do something, you know, Who knows what, you know, some little side hustles or whatever enough to make ends meet, but not go back into the workforce. And I think, you know, that's had a huge impact, because you see it in it's not just confined to, you know, in the beginning, it was restaurants, nobody wanted to come back. But every day on the news now, it's, you know, truck drivers delivering fuel to fuel stations, it's, well, you know, and then it's caused a lot of shortages in the grocery industry. And of course, they're coming back out. And I'm like, we don't want to hoard, but it all gets back to supply chain issues.

 

Lauren  10:36

Yep. Absolutely. I think that there's a lot of open positions right now in some really critical industries. And it's really it's, over time, it's going to continue to impact us in a negative way. And it's going to be very interesting to see how employers respond in that way. You know, I think right now, there is, you know, naturally, a desire to want to fill open roles with whomever is able to provide that level of talent or expertise, or just simply a warm body in some cases. You know, but, you know, to your point, I think there's some folks who exited the workforce permanently, whether it be retirement or whether it be, you know, what, medically, you know, based on my health, I'm not sure I can handle this environment, you know, and we have a lot of, you know, women who have had to exit the workforce to care for their children, because of, you know, the childcare shortages and increased costs. So there's, there's so many, there's so many issues and problems right now, you know, it really is kind of, you know, scary in a way, you know, but ideally, I think that there is a way to really kind of meet in the middle and find ways to get creative about how to fill these roles. It's it perhaps it's not, you know, a one for one headcount backfill, you know, maybe it's like you were saying before, you know, the gig economy is alive and well, and maybe there's opportunities for freelancers for contractors, for folks who want to work part time and are not interested in full time work, I think there is opportunities to get creative on how we can adjust work for strategies, and really kind of solve for some of the societal issues we're experiencing.

 

Roy Barker  12:23

Yeah, yeah, I think that that's the bigger overarching concept, I think, is being creative. And, you know, one thing I jotted down was, you know, the remote work. And I think, and then you mentioned women, is that, you know, well, I've worked from home for probably 20 years or more, I really get it and I get it more, I actually get it more for the women because of childcare. And, you know, something else that we talk a little bit about, too, is that the, the poor daughter in law is usually the one that takes care of all the elderly people in family too. I mean, it's like, you know, we just get through with the kids. And now it's, you know, taking care of the parents, and it never ends. But unfortunately, it's seen as well, you're not dedicated to your job, because you want to go out and take care of this. And I had a conversation not long ago with a, she runs a remote company consulting company for technology. And, you know, she's totally remote and made that as a conscious choice, because it's a couple things. Number one, we spread that talent. Well, we spread our gathering of talent over, you know, maybe the US or a wider area. So we're not confined to who's available, and right in our area, but then also all these benefits of, you know, being able to be closer and run, if you had to go pick somebody up from school or you have a sick child, they can be laying in the other room, they don't need a lot of attention. And, you know, if you're writing a report, maybe we have a deadline. You know, it has to be through by Friday, but really doesn't matter if your key stroking at nine in the morning or at nine at night, as long as you get a good report turned out. So, you know, I am certainly an advocate of, of, like I said, and, you know, unless you have to have a piece of equipment, that remote work is just, it's such a benefit and for the employee, for the employee, and sometimes for the employer. People tend to work more or they feel this, you know, like, myself, I feel this obligation, like, what a blessing that, you know, I always want to make sure I'm giving just that little bit more. Is that going to be a huge enticement going through this tsunami? If it materializes?

 

Lauren  14:44

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that those who are used to remote work at this point, regardless of how many years they've been doing it, I think, have realized that there's more benefits and there are drawbacks. You know, I think that there are some drawbacks. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely some some social drawbacks and you know, feeling like you, you know, live at work instead of working from home. Right. So, um, you know, there's definitely some drawbacks, but I think that, you know, the, the flexibility kind of outweighs that in a lot of different cases, and most positions that can be handled from a remote environment. You know, I think that employers are seeing firsthand through the pandemic, and even now, you know, hey, we were just as productive, in fact, maybe even more productive. Um, and, you know, perhaps we, you know, should really consider this and we kind of hit the nail on the head to from from a turnover tsunami perspective, the best way to be competitive and expand your talent pool is being open to a remote and even a hybrid workforce environment. Because that means that you can get, you know, folks, if you're based in, you know, New York, you can actually get some folks in California that maybe you couldn't have gotten before, because you were, you know, you were based on, you know, getting people who are local and wanting them to come into the office. So your ability to obtain really talented individuals, you know, you expand that pool pretty quickly, when you, you know, acknowledge that remote work is just as productive, that you can, you know, do the same work as you did before. But I, I, you know, other side of the coin, there are some jobs that do require you to go into an office or a manufacturing facility, or a plant of some sort. And, you know, those jobs are the ones that are the hardest to fill right now. And I think there needs to be from an employer perspective, and acknowledgement that it's time to overhaul the rewards that we are offering employees who do need to come on site for some reason. So we need to be looking at compensation, we need to be looking at benefits, we need to be looking at development opportunities, and training opportunities, and cross training, which I think is something that's kind of fallen by the wayside, in a lot of cases, all of these sorts of things, I think, you know, employers need to get a little more dynamic and creative.

 

Roy Barker  17:24

You know, and you mentioned earlier about maybe, instead of hiring one full time worker, maybe we hired two part times, I think that, you know, the remote plays into that too, that I may not even want to get up and struggle to drive an hour to work three to four hours and then drive an hour home. Whereas, you know, if we have that pooling, it's like, if you got two people, one works in the morning, one works in the afternoon, if the job is suited, then you know that the remote aspect even helps that even more.

 

Lauren  17:55

For sure, and you know, them dispersing talent amongst time zones is actually really helpful too, for a variety of, you know, different, you know, industries and services, like customer service, for example, you know, is one of those ones that, you know, a lot of the larger corporations have kind of moved to a remote environment and have been even prior to the pandemic, and it allows them to service their customers for longer periods of time during the day because of it. So there's, there's definitely advantages. And I think if we can kind of we as employers can kind of step out of, you know, the paternalistic view of needing to physically see each other in the office every day, if we can step out of that. And just accept that time has times have changed. You know, I really do think that, you know, employers can get creative around what offerings they can change, and enhance to really increase that employee value proposition and make people want to work for them.

 

Roy Barker  18:52

Right. Yeah, you know, years ago, when I did work in an office, I feel like this helps me control my day much better. Because, you know, working in an office that I jokingly say that, you know, I started out with the, you know, the open door, and then it was, you know, had to close the door and then I had to, like wedge a chair up underneath the door to keep people from coming in. And then it's like, you know, it's every, it's just some of its socializing some of its just office talk, but it's like, you do all that from nine to five and then you know, about go eat dinner and then about six, you can really sit down and get your day started into your work from, you know, six to midnight. So, you know, from those perspective, that's one reason why I love it. I just feel like so much more productive when I'm at home. And but also, you talked about the college kids coming out and I guess they're not what I hear, I'll let you expand on this is that they're not looking for the traditional opportunities. Like you know, I'm I'm of a certain age that we came out of a school and we look for a company in this Explain that we liked and maybe not like, but we went there and you stayed for 30 years? And it's just not that mindset is long gone.

 

Lauren  20:10

Yeah, yeah, it's it's long gone. And there's some unfortunate aspects of that. And then there's also some, you know, it's changing the way that we work, and it's changing how organizations craft their people's strategy. And so there is some benefits to that mindset shift. But yes, there are there are, you know, folks that are coming out of college, you know, folks that, you know, are, I guess you would call them? What is it Gen Z, maybe Gen, Z and millennials that, you know, are not necessarily as you know, loyal to an organization, but are, you know, really looking for organizations that can benefit them in their lifestyles. And so, you know, employers that are able to kind of make changes and a lot of ways to their people's strategy where they can really kind of customize and create some sort of, you know, personalized benefits, compensation, you know, really try to attract that mindset to their organization. Yeah, I think that they're really they are able to get those folks that are younger, right out of college, I think those that employers that are not necessarily as skilled at identifying what that age bracket is looking for, or having trouble getting some of those folks into, into their, their organizations. And, you know, ultimately, you know, would you love to have your employees stay, you know, 2030 years? Yeah, of course, but I think there's, there's some pros and cons to that, too, right? You know, you're getting fresh set of eyes on things and a new way of doing things. And, you know, one of the, you know, I grew up in the retail industry, so a lot of my HR experiences was at retail organizations, and there's high turnover, and we in a retail environment, not just in the stores, but also in a corporate and distribution center manufacturing facilities. And so, you know, the one benefit of that is that, you know, you get to see what other competitors are doing from a process and creative perspective, because those co workers that you have now came from those places, right, so there's a lot of opportunity to kind of learn and grow, not only, you know, at an employee level, but also as an organization to learn and grow, because you're basically stealing your competitors, ways and learning a lot from that experience. So, you know, I think it's really just an acceptance, you know, situation at this point, we just have to accept that those that are coming out of school are not going to be sitting in the seats for probably any more than three to five years at most. And that's just a fact. We just need to kind of, you know, accept it and move on and develop strategy around that. And, you know, just be prepared for when folks leave the organization. And, you know, how are we going to manage to that?

 

Roy Barker  23:09

Yeah. So, what are, you know, we don't have to get into in depth, but what are some of the benefits that you may look at offering that college graduate? You know, one thing I hear a lot about is, causes, you know, like, sometimes companies do, like, where you get 235 hours a month to go work on a cause that's really meaningful to you. But what are some other things that? Yeah, that's good offer to get get a new college graduate interested in working for them?

 

Lauren  23:40

Yeah, I mean, social responsibility is a big one, you know, any, any way that an organization can kind of tie its overall organizational mission and values to social causes, is really important. You know, to younger workers, they're looking to work for an organization that aligns with their own personal values, and where they want to volunteer and dedicate their time. So they're much more selective in that way. And so I am seeing organizations not only, you know, infusing volunteer opportunities within the organization, but also championing any sort of volunteer work that an employee wants to do outside of the organization by providing them with some paid volunteer days to go and do those activities within their community. And I think that, you know, younger workers are also looking for, you know, the remote flexibility that we've been talking about. They also want some help with saving for retirement. So any sort of benefit that can help them whether it be a 401k match or financial planning services and guidance, tax preparation, all those sorts of things are, you know, hot topics, and also student loan reimbursement is really you know, a hot benefit right now very trendy in a lot of different organizations. You know, the student loans that kids are coming out of school with these days is astronomical, and they really need some help to try to pay those down. And that's where you can kind of, you know, create some sort of, you know, a loyalty program, if you, so to speak, if you are willing to reimburse for some, you know, student loans, then, you know, you can ask for, you know, loyalty and tenure and service in exchange. And, you know, that is, you know, sort of, you know, the best way to kind of, you know, keep folks in place is, you know, hey, I help you, you help me sort of thing, and I think those are all areas, you know, in addition to the obvious, right, health insurance, comprehensive, you know, health insurance is always, you know, key and critical. And any sort of, you know, paid time off and flexibility is also critical. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  25:52

Yeah. And how prevalent is that with the flex time, you know, I know, it's working from home is one thing, but also flex time, like, you know, as long if I come in at nine to six, or 10, to eight, or, you know, five in the morning until two in the afternoon, again, you know, we get back to, it's the job for sure. But for the most part, you know, if we overlap, where we can be in meetings, and you know, now with, with zoom and teams and things like that, I don't know, I just kind of wonder if those old days of having to get around a conference table may be gone. Because I don't necessarily need to slide you anything across the table for you to look at, I can put it up on my screen, I can email it to you. It's anyway, but kind of talking about that. About that flex time, how important is that? And how is that for the employer to offer would be the next question.

 

Lauren  26:52

Yeah, you know, I think it's, I think it's really important, I think, especially as remote work continues, and folks that might be working for a company headquartered in one timezone. And they're in another, I think, it's really important to have a level of flexibility, not just due to time zone differences, but also, you know, just due to lifestyle differences, right there, they're early birds that like to get up and get cracking. And then there are also folks that do better, you know, working in the evening, and, you know, it's a matter of preference, it's a matter of lifestyle, if you have young children, you know, also if you're taking care of elderly parents, I mean, there's lots of different factors, I think that could, you know, arise. And so I think the more flexible an employer can be the better. And I think a lot of employers, what they do is they Institute core hours. And the you know, the ideal situation is that, you know, 90% of your population is is online and available during core hours. And so depending upon your industry, and you know, where you're located, you know, those core hours are typically between nine and three, at least some window within that timeframe, it might not necessarily be a full six hours, but you know, it's usually somewhere between nine and 10 into where the the majority of the employees are working and available in case collaboration is necessary. Or, you know, a team zoom call is required, or if someone might need to drive into the office, because perhaps they're local to a headquarter or a hub office. You know, those are typically, you know, the hours that make the most sense, but outside of those hours, really, providing a level of flexibility is the most important thing right now, for a variety of

 

Roy Barker  28:38

like myself, you know, I live in Fort Worth, Texas, and you know, there's a lot of industry and a lot of jobs in Dallas. So you know, I just got my car and just took off over there. I don't know, maybe, you know, 45 minutes. But the problem is, and one reason why I've never accepted a job from over there is because on any given morning, you know, you could have 234 wrecks in between and this 45 minute drive can take you two hours and 45 minutes. Not that I didn't you know, it's like, you know, because it's the old adage of, well, you need to plan and you need to get up so do I need to leave at five o'clock every morning and get there you know, way before time are in. It's tough but I think with being flexible, where we know that if people are you know if I was to get in that nine or 930 if I do my time, that's really all that matters. Like he said, If I'm overlapping if we've got core hours when we need to collaborate, but you know, the awesome thing about technology is you know, we can talk on the phone, not holding it up. Of course we need to be responsible drivers and have it on the speaker but I know if you're sitting in traffic anyway, you're not really driving too fast, you know, so I don't know there's so much with it. We live in such a great time both for the employer and the employee. That You know, I just feel like there's certain ways that we can work around with the hard and fast rules, like I said, Unless you're working on an assembly line where you just have to be there. You know, when something comes rolling by the, you know, put a tire on it, or whatever, we just, there are ways that we can find to kind of meet in the middle, get the job done, but yet be empathetic of the employee situation as well.

 

Lauren  30:25

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that employers who are willing to make adjustments and accommodations and kind of really assess, you know, how their workforce can continue to be productive with, you know, flexible opportunities, I think are going to be the ones that sustain themselves continue to attract talented individuals. And, you know, I think that those organizations that are, you know, maybe not necessarily as open to change, or open to flexibility, you know, aside from those that, you know, have to have it because of the type of product that they make, or the type of business that they're in, you know, those that are resistant to change, just because they're resistant to change, I think are the ones that are going to struggle. And, you know, I think we all know that, you know, it all comes down to the talent that you have within the organization, right, you know, you want talented folks with the skill sets, you need to become successful, to continue, you know, to drive revenue to drive shareholder value in some cases. And, you know, I think that, you know, competing for talent is is incredibly important right now,

 

Roy Barker  31:38

yeah, well, you know, one of my slogans is, I think that we in HR, I think that we need to look at it, like sales and marketing is that we always need to be marketing, for good talent, and we shouldn't, there's, you know, we could have two or three episodes on that about, you know, being proactive in recruiting, and not getting, you know, and we can't always help it. But a lot of times, we can be more proactive, where we're not just taking a pulse and saying, you know, I think that thank you got a pulse, we're going to be good, you know, being able to really select those employees, because what they end up doing is it just gets in a vicious cycle, we create the turnover, maybe they are not trained up, they interact poorly, with our customers with other employees, things don't get done. So it can lead to a whole lot, I would love to see. All industries, just be more proactive in that and get out in, like I said, market for the talent, don't just wait for, hey, we had a job opening. So we need to fling out some kind of a, you know, electronic ad to see if we can get somebody to respond, because you can talk to this too, because that sets off another cycle is we get 2000 applicants and about, you know, 50 of them are actually qualified people that you want to look at, but you got to pay somebody to sift through the other, you know, not to 150 applications to try to write those out?

 

Lauren  33:10

Well, you know, I think that, you know, this is kind of where organizational development is so critical. And I think some employers don't get it right, unfortunately. So if you are within an organization that really does organizational development, well, personal development training, you know, they employees are able to kind of access and really figure out what they're good at. And once they can figure out what they're good at, they, they tend to gravitate towards, you know, opportunities that allow them to be successful. And so I think a lot of folks that end up applying to random jobs just to apply in hopes that they'll get a call back, might not necessarily have had the opportunity to work for an organization that saw their value and helps them figure out what they were good at. And so I think you've got some, you know, folks that are just applying to apply, and, you know, those that are genuinely qualified, they may or may not even like doing that. And so, I think an organization that has a really robust development program that includes those personal professional development training, and has really great leadership, that can kind of spot Okay, you know, what, you know, so and so is, you know, working as an executive assistant, but they're actually really fantastic at communications, we probably should give them an opportunity to maybe sit over here for six weeks, and figure out if maybe that is more fulfilling for them and more valuable for us because that's where their skill set is. And so I think when you've got an organization that has the opportunity to do that, Sort of development, whether they're small or large, really, you know, any employer size can can be effective at doing this, I think that helps to not only create, you know, employees that want to stay with you, because they see the value in working for you. But it also helps to cultivate the workforce in general. So if and when that person leaves you and go somewhere else, they're probably going to apply for the right job this time, and they're gonna, they're gonna find the right, you know, job for their skill set, and not necessarily waste the next recruiters time. So there's some benefit to organizational development that kind of gets overlooked. And I think that there's great opportunity, you know, to really kind of decrease that kind of like, you know, just, I'm just going to click and send my resume here and hopes that I'll get a call, you know, I think there's, there's opportunities there for organizations to look at the bigger picture.

 

Roy Barker  35:59

And I've just written down development as we wrap before you start. And I think it's good to think about it, not only, you know, what you talked about earlier, the cross functional, but I feel like to we, even if it's a short period, if we go to different departments, we kind of get a little more empathy for what they're going through, instead of more like, hey, they just keep dumping all this stuff, or the asking for all this crazy stuff. But if we like seek to understand what their job is, and why they do it, and you know, talk a lot about the communication between sales and marketing, I think, you know, those are great opportunities, because, you know, marketing is never doing enough for salespeople. salespeople are never close enough for marketing leads that they send over there. But we can seek to figure out, you know, are we getting the right leads, and just opening up that communication, but I can't, you know, my opinion, I think that the cross, even if it's maybe not as a permanent move, but if it's like you said, six weeks, a temporary, maybe, you know, ride with somebody or you know, sitting next to them for a day a week and getting that, but then the other part I think is we've overlooked is the development for future leadership. And, you know, we have to really keep an eye on that. The education component, we can't be scared to spend the money, I love the old saying I use all the time, his CFO goes to CEO and says, How can we keep training all these people and they keep leaving. And he's like, the C, ego says, Well, how can we not train them and have them stay, you know, so we can't be scared of these people leave. And then the other thing, too, we never know, when they come back, sometimes they may leave for a short period of time, go somewhere else get some more experience, because, you know, as we start working up any company, it's more of a pyramid, you know, you start getting to the top slots are open, fewer, and far between. And so the only thing you know, I was gonna say that to back on, you know, not being at the same company for 30 years, the way it benefits employees to is they get a raise, you know, sometimes we stay at the same company, get your two 3%, if you really want to bump, you may have to go somewhere. But again, as you said, in the retail, we train them, they go somewhere else, and they come back with a world of experience and how other people are doing it, maybe refresh some things we're doing. So I just never feel like training is or development is a bad thing. It's always money well spent.

 

Lauren  38:39

It is and I think that some organizations don't know how to do it well. And those that do, they reap the dividends of it, you know, they they have, you know, really diverse employees within their organization who, like you said, really do understand the cross functional requirements to collaborate, and they understand, you know, process flows and how the organization kind of goes through, you know, this from this position down to this position, how all these different things work. You know, I think that companies that can really kind of, you know, focus on that as a priority, it's going to benefit them in the long run, for sure. And I think there's also you know, and from a leadership perspective, there's a huge opportunity right now, to kind of capitalize on some of the feelings and thoughts that we've had through the early days of the pandemic, and, you know, really kind of, you know, step back, you know, as leaders and really think, you know, when I lead with empathy, I get more productivity, hmm, you know, awful idea. And I think that, you know, it really kind of looking back and reflecting on what a you know, crazy time that we've lived Through and we kind of we don't we still are living through and we will continue to live through. But those first handful of months when we all didn't know what was going to happen and what was going to come next, you know, I think if leaders really stepped back and thought about those moments, how their team felt, how they felt, and you know, the type of support that they gave their teams. And if they really thought through what worked and what didn't work, they should really continue those behaviors that worked. And I think that leading with empathy is one of those things that was incredibly important during those first few phases of the pandemic. And when you continue to lead in a way that makes you feel good as a person and makes your team feel good. You're on the right track, no matter what you're on the right track, and people are watching you, right. So like the leaders of tomorrow are watching, you know, lead by example. And they will mimic you. So if you, you know, if you take the opportunity to recognize what works, what doesn't work, and really start to kind of spread and impart your knowledge, you know, that's the best way to kind of develop your future leaders is just be a great example for them.

 

Roy Barker  41:13

Exactly. So let's talk about for just a minute, coming back together for those companies where, you know, we've had remote workers, and now we're bringing everybody back. And I don't know, I guess I kind of have mixed emotions on this. Because, you know, when, when this pandemic started, you know, we thought probably after a few months, there would be an increase in violence just in the community at large because of things, but it didn't really manifest until recently. And then, you know, here in our area, it seemed like, crime and violent crime, everything has been on the rise. And then we've had the turbulent times have seemed like that. Sometimes people's ideologies are at polar opposites, and there's no middle, we can't, if, if you don't like my way of thinking, then I'm gonna call you, I'm gonna attack you personally, regardless of if it's, you know, the left or the right, that's not important. But what do you think about when people start coming back? They've been on their own, we've got all this other stuff going on? Are there gonna be some integration problems that we need to really be aware of, and kind of maybe take some precautionary steps?

 

Lauren  42:36

You know, I think that I like to approach it from an optimistic standpoint, you know, I really think that there's a lot of good in people, and that when there's divisiveness, there's also an ability to kind of look at things with a critical lens, and maybe a different perspective. So I like to think that as employees come back into the workplace, that they're going to have the ability to come in with the perspective and the lens that you know, what, I'm here at work. This is a professional environment. You know, I might have different views and different perspectives, but I did before the pandemic, and I'm still going to have them after the pandemic. And, you know, I did before, you know, certain, you know, racial inequities came, you know, more to light than they ever have before. And I will after, and, you know, I think it's important for employers to facilitate the proper environment, and address any sort of issues or concerns with with promptness and with thoroughness. But I think it's also up to employees to remember that we're all human, we all have difference of opinion. And it's important to be respectful of one another, regardless of where we're coming from. And like I said, I, I feel strongly that people do have good intentions, they just sometimes get misplaced. And that's what human resource representatives are really for, right? You know, to really kind of step in and help when perhaps teams aren't seeing eye to eye or leaders aren't seeing eye to eye with their subordinate, their subordinate employees. And, you know, that's when that's when you can leverage HR. Those are the exact moments that you need human resources within your organization to kind of step up and, you know, really help the organization through challenging times or any sort of new devices. Have divisive moments.

 

Roy Barker  45:03

Yeah, and I don't want to belabor the point of, because I'm sure we both agree on that. The need for policies, procedures, handbooks for everything to be written down documented for us to have documented evidence that the employees have at least seen it, you know, they can't make it, make them read it. But, you know, just to have that base fundamental is so important. And the other part of that is we don't, you know, if we're a smaller company, if we got one, two, it's the time to start putting it in place, we know there's no we don't want to wait to you got 100 people, you're going to be way behind the eight ball. So I think that's another it's a valuable service of HR, but then it's also of the on demand that, hey, I don't have the knowledge, you know, if I'm a plumber, or something, and I don't really have that HR knowledge, that's where, you know, the Reach out on demand that could get some of those products from somebody like yourself to really help protect, you know, that's a risk management strategy, as well, as you know, we want to do the right thing.

 

Lauren  46:11

Yeah, no, I think policies, procedures process, you know, documents, they're all critically important for an organization generally speaking, but also for leaders, and HR professionals, when they need to make decisions about someone's, you know, status within the organization, whether they, you know, need to leave the organization because of a violation of company policy. But, you know, ultimately, you know, things, there are certain things that should not be brought to the workplace, and there are certain things within the workplace that are not allowed, you know, sexual harassment, workplace bullying, discrimination, you know, all of these sorts of things are prohibited by law. And if you are an employer who does not have a solid handbook and solid policies, you know, that can be concerning that only from a compliance perspective, but to your employees, your employees want to work for an organization that is going to make sure that the environments that they work in are safe. And they want to feel supported, regardless of who they are, what gender they are, what ethnicity they are, they want to feel as if they can be welcome and included in your environment. And the best way to do that policies and procedures, and effectively enforcing those policies and procedures and taking action when those policies and procedures are broken.

 

Roy Barker  47:44

And I'm going to kind of give you not a scenario, but talk about something that I want to get your input to, you know, because a lot of times if if, as an employee, if I reach out to you, and HR, you know, we can start? I don't know, it can set off a chain of events. And so I guess, you know, I guess in my opinion, is if you feel uncomfortable, or something that you're not sure I would rather you go immediately to HR, either be re assured that everything is okay, or, you know, be reassured everything is not okay. And here's what we can do. But I think it's important that we encourage, you know, we don't want it to be trivial, you know, like Susie was using my pencil and stapler while I was gone, things like that. But, you know, for the important issues, we need to encourage employees to reach out to HR, let's get this salt. Let's Don't let it fester. Because I also feel like if I'm sitting here feeling wronged, it just builds and then the next thing you do, I'm like, yeah, that's just piling on. And then it just gets to a level that maybe it didn't really have to get to. So absolutely, yeah, I

 

Lauren  48:56

mean, I think there's, there's opportunities there. Well, first off, if you are helping your leaders to effectively lead a lot of times the best first stop when you have a issue or concern is and employees to go directly to your to your direct supervisor. Now if your direct supervisor is part of the problem, then of course, that's not a very good option. But if they are not, you know, that is that is the first stop. If you can't get what you need out of that conversation or if perhaps they direct you directly to human resources that that is you know, ultimately a good HR department is able to confidentially listen to your concerns, provide you with guidance and advice and ask you if it's okay to move forward. To help facilitate solving the problem. There are certain things that are brought to hrs attention that they are required to report So, you know, for example, like we were talking before, I mean, instances of sexual harassment, you know, there is a protocol that comes with that because of the level of severity of something of that nature. But if it's, you know, you're you're, you've got some concerns about something that, you know, you want to confidentially speak with someone, you know, in HR a, a full service, proper HR department, is the best way it's managed that what some employers do, you mainly see it come in a large employer perspective. But they will actually have hotlines are confidential hotlines, where you can dial in and report any sort of concern that you have anonymously. And you can decide if you want to be, you know, not anonymous, if you want to share your contact information you can do so. And whomever is responsible for Manning that hotline has a responsibility and a duty to protect your privacy at all costs. And there are policies around privacy within an organization as well, that kind of, you know, help you to, to kind of put employees at ease. So even small businesses can kind of implement a very similar process. I know I have a client of mine who actually has in their Handbook, that any sort of issue or concern that needs to be handled with a confidential and private nature, that they there's two individuals in the organization that they can go to, who have been identified and selected to keep, you know, most confidence and, and privacy through whatever issue or concern maybe you voiced to them. And so even a small business can can kind of implement a system, a safety net, for employees to feel safe to bring forward issues and concerns without any sort of repercussions.

 

Roy Barker  52:01

Yeah, I think that's important to make the employee feel like, there is a path to address it, because sometimes you feel like if there's no path, that means that nobody really cares. So it's just a great piece of proactive work. And the other thing I was just going to add to that was documentation, you know, as the employee, as the employee or the manager, just jot a quick note down, you know, we've got so many tools, I use one notes. But you know, I've got a paper book here that I keep, you know, jot down notes, as we're talking that it's so easy just to jot down the date, who it is what we spoke about, because if something does come up six months, eight months from now, like I don't remember that, but then also as the employee, he, you've got documented evidence of, you know, what I've tried with this person I've tried, you know, so anyway, this hate to don't want to dwell on the negative, but though, that's an important function of HR, I feel like is that we just have to, you know, have a path to work these things out.

 

Lauren  53:03

Oh, for sure. And I think that documentation on both sides, employer documentation, and employee documentation is incredibly important. And there are unfortunately, there are going to be times where you as an employee are going to voice a concern, and it's not going to be handled the way that you would like to be handled. And, you know, you have to decide, you know, this is not the HR, you know, side of me talking, this is the human side of me talking, you have to decide what you're willing to put up with. And I think that is kind of, you know, takes our conversation full circle in that, that is also a contributing factor to the high turnover and the workforce, you know, issues that we're experiencing right now within the US is, people are fed up with certain certain, certain kinds of things, and they're not willing to put up with it any longer. And they're looking, you know, to go to a different employer or to leave the workforce all together. And I think there's nothing wrong with that, in that there's nothing wrong with as a human being deciding, you know, this action or inaction is not suitable for me, I am not going to play a party to this anymore, or I don't want to be treated this way. Or I don't want to work for an organization that condones this or doesn't take care of this. It's okay, to move on. You know, it's okay to make those decisions. And, you know, it's also it's okay, from an employer perspective, sometimes to have to handle it the way that you have to handle it, even though you would rather keep that employee and you know, it's not going to make them very happy. Sometimes you have to make the good business decision. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, you can please everybody, but it's, it's rare, it's rare, and it's just, it's okay, if you need to move on. It's okay. Some people need to hear that sometimes. That's why I try to I try to include that in a lot of my conversation about HR work is because, you know, HR gets a bad rap sometimes, you know, like, sometimes, you know, HR is seen as, you know, a function that doesn't necessarily work for the people, you know, and, and there are circumstances it's a tightrope, you know, you gotta, you got to balance the business supporting the business and supporting the employees. And, you know, sometimes decisions are made that does not make the employees happy. And like I said, it's okay, it's gonna happen, prepare yourself.

 

Roy Barker  55:34

I had an instance where, you know, I walked out in my office one day, and this HR guy, I loved him to death. He was awesome. But you know, he was just walking down the hall talking to my boss, I'm like, not what you want to see on Monday morning. Is your boss, an HR guy walking down the hall toward your office?

 

Lauren  55:52

No, it's not. It's not but but, you know, that's the other thing too. Those sorts of things happen all the time to really great talented people. And so if you ever end up in that situation, know that they don't want to do it, and they have to do it, and you don't want to hear it. And you might not have any choice but to hear it. So it

 

Roy Barker  56:15

Yeah, luckily, luckily, they walked on by and went somewhere else. I was good.

 

Lauren  56:20

Good. So you're safe. We were safe. But But like I said, it happens to the best of us, you know, and it's it's like I said, it's business. And you know, sometimes you just have to be like, Alright, time to move on to the next thing.

 

Roy Barker  56:33

Right. All right, Lauren. Well, thanks so much. We really running way late. I appreciate your time. And what am I doing? I'm, uh, maybe get a commitment out of you to come back. Because there's so much I want to talk about wanted to talk about Yeah, boarding portion. I feel like that's gotten to be overlooked. Well, it's non existent in a lot of places. It's like, you know, here's your desk, and there's your computer. Good luck to you. So yeah, I'd like for you to come back. There's just so much more in this space to talk about, but appreciate your love today. A couple questions before we go. Number one, what is a tool or a habit, something that you use in your daily life that you feel like adds a lot of value?

 

Lauren  57:16

Okay, well, really, there's so many, but I think the one that is probably Top of Mind as of late and something that I've been actively practicing is, is creating boundaries, and really trying to craft my schedule, my work schedule, actually my whole life schedule, in a way that works for me. And so, you know, I, I don't want to start taking calls before a certain time, or if I want to carve out time to really focus on putting a project together without any distractions. I really, I am not apologetic any longer about setting boundaries. And I would encourage that habit amongst all of all of your list listeners, and you know, anyone, quite frankly, because it really does help you to feel a little more in control of our days, that really, they do get away from us quite a bit.

 

Roy Barker  58:16

Oh, that's a good point. It's so hard. It's so hard to get in the habit. But it can be so liberating for us to just not feel like Like I said, like I was talking about earlier not to feel like during the day, we've got all this, you know, it's more the tail wagging the dog, and then you know, at six o'clock when everybody else is gone, and we can certainly get our work done. So

 

Lauren  58:39

no carve out that time for yourself carve out if you know, you need three hours to work on something, carve it out and block it off. And that's I've been doing that more lately, and it has been very helpful for my mental health.

 

Roy Barker  58:53

That's awesome advice. Thanks for that. So let's tell everybody, who do you like to work with? How can you help them? And then of course, how can they reach out and get a hold of you?

 

Lauren  59:03

Sure. Yeah, you know, we work with clients of all sizes. You know, we have fortune 500 clients. We have my smallest client has 10 employees. So we really are kind of open to all sizes, all industries. We love to work with existing HR teams, as extra hands to help them through complex projects. And we also love to support small businesses or even you know, middle sized businesses who might not necessarily have an extensive team who to handle, you know, HR issues, we can kind of step in and be your advisor, we can also step in and execute. So there's a variety of different things that we can do. I mean, from an HR consulting perspective, we really focus on all disciplines of HR. As I mentioned earlier, you know, our team all has a I'm 20 years, at least 20 years of HR experience at corporations across the country. So we've really seen it all, quite frankly. And so we can really step in and help in any capacity, whether that is on a project basis, whether it's on a retainer basis, because you want to have someone to reach out to because you don't have anyone in house to really handle HR issues. Or whether you just simply need some help, you know, assessing your current strategy and developing something that's going to work for you. We can do all of that. You know, where you can reach us, you can check out our website, it is nlbenefits.com. That's probably the best way to get more information about our services, get more information about our staff, as well as you can get some quotes for some clients and some some of our recent projects that we've done. It's a great way to kind of get more information about how we can help you. And you can reach out schedule a call or send me an email through that website as well.

 

Roy Barker  1:01:04

Okay, great. Well, y'all reach out, let Lauren help you with your HR needs, or at least let her confirm that you're moving in the right direction and never hurts to have a second set of eyes on all these processes. There's always something new that's coming up. But again, I appreciate your time very much. It's been awesome information that you've given us. So that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. Of course, I'm your host Roy, you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com We are on all the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify. If we're not on one that you listen to please reach out I'd be glad to add it. Make it easier for you to listen to us. You can also reach out on social media or on all the major platforms probably hang out more on Instagram than anywhere else, but you know be glad to get a message through there. Also, a video of this interview will go up on YouTube when the episode goes live. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.

www.nlbenefits.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

A Beginners Guide To Paid Online Advertising, A Road Map For Success Featuring Geoff Crain

Have you ever wondered where to start your digital advertising journey? There are so many options for messaging and channels you must consider. Getting started is the hardest part. Once you are out there, continue to tweak and dial in your messaging for optimal success.

About Geoff

Geoff is the Digital Director at Kingstar Media, one of North America’s top digital marketing/video production agencies. He has been in the digital industry for 15 years. He started on the brand side buying digital media for Johnson & Johnson and Coca Cola. He moved into the performance marketing space in 2013 where he worked for 6 years buying high volume digital media on a CPA/CPI/CPL for a variety of clients. In 2019, he joined Kingstar Media. In total, Geoff has purchased over $200M worth of digital media.

Clients have include Spotify, Google, Trivago, Match, Navage, Simply Fit Board and Copper Chef.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoff-crain-39958726/

https://twitter.com/KingstarDM

www.kingstarmedia.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

 

Full Transcript Below

A Beginners Guide To Paid Online Advertising, A Road Map For Success Featuring Geoff Crain

Tue, 7/13 7:13PM • 29:47

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

work, product, people, buyer, buying, ads, videos, digital media, resonate, advertising, roi, google, geoff, service, test, understand, marketing, point, sale, niches

SPEAKERS

Geoff, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:05

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of guests, I can talk about a diverse set of topics. Hopefully we could point out something that you know, maybe you haven't heard of before. Or secondly, if you're struggling something keeping you up at night, we can provide you a great resource to help you with that. Today we have an awesome guest with us, Geoff Crain, he is the digital director at Kingstar. Media, one of North America's top digital marketing, video production agencies. He has been in the digital industry for 15 years he started on the brand side buying digital media for Johnson and Johnson and Coca Cola. He moved into the performance marketing space in 2013, where he worked for 16 years buying high volume digital media, on a CPA slash CPS last CPO for a variety of clients in 2019, he joined Kingstar Media. In total, Geoff has purchased over 200 million worth of digital media. Geoff, thanks for taking time out of your day and being on our show. We certainly appreciate it.

 

Geoff  01:16

Thanks for having me. I was excited looking forward to speak with you.

 

Roy Barker  01:19

Ya know, it's been a long time coming. So I'm excited to get you on here as well. Before we get jump into this, if you don't mind, can you give us a little bit of your background? You know, what is something digital media, something that you've always wanted to do? Or kind of how you found yourself in the space now?

 

Geoff  01:39

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, I come from kind of a family that was in advertising. My father, he's has his own ad agency, he was always kind of in that production, commercial producing side, a great kind of director in that respect. And I found myself wanting to get into some sort of advertising or marketing out of university, or work for a big global agency, I was lucky enough to get on a team there, they thought that it would have a kind of a good fit on the digital side. Again, working kind of on Johnson Johnson, Coca Cola, buying digital media for them. And now fast forward about 12 years, I'm still in space, still loving it. I think my favorite thing is that it's evolving almost on a daily. It's always something new and keeps you engaged and excited.

 

Roy Barker  02:22

Yeah, I mean, lucky for you, there's guys like me that, you know, I can't even keep up with a scorecard. If I figured something out today. I'd already be outdated by the time I wake up in the morning. Yeah, and so now you focus mainly on the performances, I think the way you put it the performance side, which is purchasing ads or purchasing things that will produce results, correct?

 

Geoff  02:48

Yeah. So that's kind of where we separate ourselves, and my kind of skill set specifically. I mean, we're not your traditional brand buyer, you're not going to buy for kind of the Fords or the gms of the world where they're just looking for impressions and awareness, we're actually working with companies that are looking to drive revenue at a certain cost goal. So let's say you come to me with a product that's $100. And you say, Geoff, based on my cost of goods, I can afford to pay $30 to acquire a customer on digital media, I go out and try to acquire that sale with $30 worth of digital media. And then we try to scale it 1000s 10s of 1000s 100 1000s or millions of times, we kind of pride ourselves and our clients can be successful. And we can generate them profit, but they'll reinvest it with us. And it's kind of a both of us work. Both of us win. And we can see all together.

 

Roy Barker  03:35

Yeah. So what I guess what platforms does this encompasses this more? It may be a combination, but like, again, I'm coming from a very limited knowledge base. But you know, you think about the the Google links or click throughs. You know, like when you do a Google search, somebody shows up at the very top, it's usually paid. But then you have the display ads or display videos. Do y'all encompass all of these are the focus in one, one area or the other?

 

Geoff  04:08

Yeah, exactly. So I think certain digital platforms or digital ad networks are better suited for this performance around marketing. Google definitely being one, and then Facebook and Instagram being the second. They're both platforms that have tracking that setup. So you know, every person that clicks if it turned into a sale, or if it didn't, that allows you to kind of let's say it's a keyword bidding strategy where you have 100 different keywords, how are we going to know which one to cut or which ones to increase the budget on? Well, Google layers in that kind of transactional data series able to see at a keyword level which were exactly drove a sale and you're able to make a decision on whether to continue to run it and if it's profitable for you that hopefully scale it and spend more money.

 

Roy Barker  04:53

Okay, so if I was to come to you and just say, Look, I'm you know, we'll take your instance that you said I've got product does sell for $100 product or service. I've got $30 per person, you know, kind of where do we go from there? Is there input questions that I need to answer to help you get started?

 

Geoff  05:14

Yeah, absolutely. So first thing, like you said, understanding kind of your profitability metrics is the most important feature that will speak to you about how you want to position your product, why is it unique? What are the unique selling propositions, what makes it different than other kinds of products or services in that category, then we formulate creative ideas, how we're going to create a video how we're going to create the images to kind of display that positioning, display, why it's such a good product, and then we'll put it into play and ever put those ads on Facebook, on Instagram and on Google, and kind of let the consumers decide if it's worth them to buy. And kind of like the the proof is in the pudding. If the if the clicks are there, if it's driving sales, it's working. If not, we try to iterate marketing is like I kind of equated to a baseball average 250 or 250, or 300 is a great average, you're going to be billions dollars in the MLB marketing's the same, you're going to swing and miss so many times out of 10 ideas, a lot of them are gonna fail true there may be successful and iterate and build from there.

 

Roy Barker  06:17

Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, one thing we try to preach, especially in the marketing space is patience. And, you know, this is a little bit different, because I think it will outlast you, this is a little different because of this paid portion, the paid for performance. And so maybe y'all expect a little bit more upfront, but we always talk about patients that, you know, if you throw something out there today, and you get big wins off of it tomorrow, the next day, a lot of times, you're lucky, it takes time for people to even if it's a good, a good ad, it just takes time for it to resonate with people unless you just hit hit the rat place where, you know, it's like, oh, my gosh, I need that. Or I've been waiting for that or the process, right? And I'm gonna click on it. But talk to us a little bit to that point is like, not only the patience of if you get the right ad in place from the beginning, but also kind of that tweaking it if you know how you might have to move things around. If you don't see success right in the beginning.

 

Geoff  07:19

Totally. Yeah, we're always pivoting. That's probably our favorite word in the advertising in the advertising world. So it's funny, ROI. A lot of times we'll plan for something. I've seen the best plans, the best creative, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is gonna be a smash here. How can this not work? And then you put it out there, nobody clicks? nobody buys. It's a total flop. But listen, you're like, Okay, I sold the products. Good. I still know that people want it. We did a research that consumers want that. So how can we reposition this and figure out some of that they do that they're going to grasp some of that's going to engage them. So we typically try to come anytime we launch five to 10, different positionings different selling propositions, and we'll just test them all we'll see the response rate both Okay, these two are working, let's see how we can iterate these two concepts and flesh it out.

 

Roy Barker  08:04

Okay, so now in in time was what's, uh, what how, you know, what could buyer? Or what could your consumer expect from? You know, let's just go from today, you know, I kind of walk in the door, and we agree to move forward. You know, what is the time involved in that planning, but then also to once you place the ad, or you know, the placement of whatever you're doing? So like, how long do you give that first cut? ago? Or do you put like three or four out there at one time to see which one you may be getting some traction on?

 

Geoff  08:40

Yeah, so it's interesting, Facebook has this really cool idea. It's called the dynamic ad. So let's say that I set the targeting men 18 to 45, who are interested in cars. So that's going to create me an audience of 10 million people great. Within that targeting, now I'm going to create an ad, I can add five different headlines, five different images, five different videos, five different body texts, and what face book is going to do is they're going to send it all out, and they're going to find the best combination for that targeting group. So you're going to know ROI right away, probably after anywhere from three to $600 a week, then you're gonna see enough lift to be like, Okay, this has some chance of success. Let's read from here. If you're trying to build a brand, you know, maybe it's a longer life cycle, a higher cost product, something that requires some education, perhaps we'll go through the funnel, educate them at the top of the funnel, then maybe come back to them with a little more down funnel message and then finally model funnel by so it really depends on the product. Some require, like it's a quick intent, oh, I need that right now. Now suppose Okay, I need to educate you about this so you can understand the benefits then also to

 

Roy Barker  09:45

do you notice that usually, with price points that you know, with more things that cost less money, probably the reaction is much quicker than like you said, maybe higher ticket items or services may just Take a little bit longer in that cycle.

 

Geoff  10:01

Absolutely right, I think like you said, a product that's maybe 2030 or $40. A lot of people can afford that they can justify that spend this, okay, you know what, I haven't bought anything in a while I've been out, this is a quick buy, I really want this to speak more, I'm going to buy something that's maybe you kind of in that three, four figure range that's going to require Oh, you maybe you get to go talk to your wife, who's gonna buy for your kid, there's more important things to buy. So how am I going to justify the spend from an advertiser, I have to show them how to justify this bed and why they need it.

 

Roy Barker  10:18

You have to show my you have show my wife why it's necessary. So um, the other thing is that, so so something's going pretty good. And I guess, you know, good is measured. Everybody has different standards. But you know, let's say you're like, pretty happy with this. It's getting a lot of traction. So do you like take a secondary idea or secondary keywords and kind of throw out there to see how that works to? You know, because I guess you know, what I'm thinking about is Who knows, maybe, you know, 25% is a good click through rate or return rate. But you never know until you try something else, you may get 4050 off of that. Or you may get five or 10 and have to revert back.

 

Geoff  11:20

Yeah, totally. We're like, I think a lot of the times too, it's about scale, right? So maybe in the first initial campaign, we let's say we sell 500 or 1000 units, and things are going great. But now the partner comes back and say, okay, we want to 10x 100x this revenue. It's interesting, once you seal the spend, the performance is cool. At that point, when you kind of go that mass market, now you're talking to a lot of different niches, a lot of different conversations. So you have to really tailor the ads and the messages to each one of those niches, and develop personas for these buyers. because like you said, you're going to get lucky in that first little bit and go, Oh, my gosh, we have a goldmine. And then when you try to expand it to the masses, it doesn't hit or the performance is at stake. So it's all about testing to planning for that.

 

Roy Barker  12:03

Yeah. And so it kind of breaking it down for novice like me what you're saying that initial spin. I don't even know what let's just say we put five or $10,000 out there, we're getting 25 30%. So what you're saying is I come back and I'm excited. And I'm like, Okay, now I'm going to throw you 50,000 and you put it out there? And you I guess do you continue with that 25? Or does when you're saying that it doesn't carry when? When we try to expand it? Does it actually do you see that start going down the percentage

 

Geoff  12:38

it's tough to hold up profitability metrics, when you do scale it at such a large pace. So what you have to do is, that's where kind of the burning becomes really important. You got to develop email lists, or customer use has to be on point, we're going to go to other channels, we're going to add to Amazon. We're going to make sure Google searches on point we're going to add maybe bank, we're going to add go to other ad networks to try to explain the Ricciardo.

 

Roy Barker  13:03

Okay, so does what I'm selling the product or service, or my spend, does that determine the channel you go? Or do you always kind of have the this is the kind of the first path that we're going to go down and see how that works? And then, you know, adjust from there. Or if I depend on if I'm selling a high end consulting service versus I don't know, you know, a $25. widget does that make you say, Facebook versus Google versus LinkedIn or something like that.

 

Geoff  13:37

So I think it really comes down to more of the demographic of the buyer, right, Roy? So think about this, I mean, maybe a 18 to 27 year old kid, if that's the buyer base, I'm probably gonna say, Hey, tiktoks is the place to go right now. Maybe if it's that kind of mom, the 35 to 45 year old young Bob a little more affluent, maybe Pinterest is where we're gonna go test it. If it's maybe that 50 to 60 year old man, Facebook's a great spot for so we really just try to figure out where the buyer is, and then we'll select the platform to advertise based on that.

 

Roy Barker  14:08

So So have you ever been surprised by the I guess the the actual buyers, demographics? I don't know. I'm just thinking I'm selling a product. And I've sold a few of them. And, you know, they were like, maybe men 30 to 40 years old, somewhere in that range. So you know, I assume that, you know, kind of our empty intake. These are questions you're asking me, you know, what is this product? Who is it? who's buying it? And then So have you ever been surprised, like you kind of targeted 30 to 40 year old men, but all of a sudden, some other demographic kind of tends to rise to the top 100%

 

Geoff  14:45

ROI happens all the time, actually. We kind of lean on like you said, the partner or the product person that we're working with to understand their buyer, but oftentimes they don't or maybe that that buyer was who was buying in Home Depot or who was buying it. At the at the local CBS that online buyers going to be a different person. So they kind of assume something. And then once you begin the day like oh my gosh, it's actually someone that's 20 years older, they're always on their mobile phone. And this is the type of buyer actually for digital marketing. So I think just based on the platform, go back to just what I said before, about Tick Tock versus Instagram versus Facebook, the same thing offline, it's a kind of retail resolve is a completely different buyer. Yeah.

 

Roy Barker  15:27

So what if I come to you and just tell you, I have no idea who's buying the same? You know, I haven't sold a lot of it, but just really haven't had the tools to keep up? Is there a way that you can kind of help them dig in? Or do you basically just have to start with your best guess looking at the the product or service and saying, well, this looks like this demographic? And then just shoot it out there and try it? Or do you have some kind of a method that you can help narrow that down?

 

Geoff  15:54

Yeah, we definitely have a method, we use a lot of surveys, we kind of have a list of people that have purchased a lot of products before. So we have a long kind of email and consumer list that we can bounce these kind of ideas off of we'll send a survey to all them, we'll get some response data. We'll also look in the markets you kind of similar products and who's buying them? That'll give us a good idea. Yeah. And then finally, you know what, we'll give our best guess and say, okay, we think it's between this demographic, this age, it's this gender and the kind of like this, then we'll put it out on Facebook and Instagram. And sometimes we miss the mark by a little bit, and then we'll just adapt the messaging accordingly.

 

Roy Barker  16:27

Okay, so I'm on the spend. Is there as you know, again, I'm sure it's different for everything. But is there a sweet spot where you know, somebody comes to you with 234 $100, maybe not enough to really gain the traction? Or, I mean, even with that amount of money, can you put something out there and kind of get a feel for it is there like a minimum amount that it just generally takes to really get things kicked off?

 

Geoff  16:56

Yeah, so we have what we call a web test model. So ranges between 15 to $20,000, that gets you a Shopify store, full production creative will have a fold issue will get you three to seven videos, and 10 plus images. And then we'll also reserve $10,000 in media spend, again, that's going right to Facebook, or to Google, that's kind of our starter package. 15 to 20k will get you up online, we'll get you some sales results. And then from there, we'll know okay, you don't want ROI, you have a chance to be successful. This is our suggestion for the next round. Right away or goals, God sales from day one, I mean, we have products that we just launched last month that we did 100k revenue right away, they came to us at that exact same package just started with that 15 to 20k test, and we blew it out of the water in the first month. So it can happen again, it's kind of like that batting average. But there's success stories that at that investment.

 

Roy Barker  17:48

So and kind of you said, talked about videos. So when what is the you hear a lot about with YouTube being a great place to do how tos. And I know that there are people that on both sides of this that it's like, well, I don't want to give away too much. And I'm what I think I've found over the years is sometimes if we give away enough, people realize that I can't if it's a service or a product that, you know, it's like, I can't do this, this guy just showed me how difficult this was to do. And I'm like it because I'm the same way. You know, I watch these YouTube videos and, you know, I get an idea of whether I can actually perform this or not. Is that? How's that hold up?

 

Geoff  18:32

Yeah, so we call it ROI in our world, we call it a user generated content. UGC is the short form, it works really well on social media, because just like you said, People want to resonate with somebody that they can relate to it, okay. I mean, that's normal person like me, there, they can do this, they can execute this product, they can use it well. So I think those videos work really well on social as opposed to those super salesy super commercials and videos, we know right away. This is that they're trying to sell them something. Right. Right. is more relatable, it's more authentic and organic.

 

Roy Barker  19:05

Yeah. Yeah, you know, we talked about that a lot. Or I do my position on you know, blogs and things like that is the more personal you can make it because when we get down to it, you know, if you're buying a trinket, you know, five or $10 item, maybe you don't really have to resonate that much. It's like you know, this is something I need or want us all get it but once you start getting to a certain point is like I need to resonate with this person. And so, you know, we always talk about trying to be as personal as you can, you know, you kind of have to keep that line between, you know, too much information but yet not so stiff because it's it's just like the internet. You know, I'm old enough around to was around when the internet was invented. So you know, back in the day, especially professionals, suit and tie, you know, that was your picture. Everything very professional and, you know, kind of stuffy to be on That's something that's kind of eased up over time is now it's, you know, the jacket, but people with their dogs and things like that. And I think that personal touch can really help resonate with people be like, Hey, I like this guy cuz typically, that's pretty bad from as people we identify with or people that we, you know, think we could like,

 

Geoff  20:24

I totally agree with your Yeah, it's it's come a long way users are getting smarter. They've seen all the ads now the mess going around for a while like you said they've seen everything, they're getting more intelligent. So we got to find kind of those organic, authentic ways to prove that the product or service is worth it.

 

Roy Barker  20:38

Yeah. And I may be I may not be the typical consumer. But one thing I kind of when I see the polished slick ads, you know, I tend to kind of shy away from them, because I'm like, Huh, what's going on with it? Why do they have to be why they overcompensating, I guess and you know that to be honest, that's kind of the way I like to run the show is not to be overproduced. I just, it just needs to be a casual conversation, because what I'm hoping is that the audience, this message resonates with our audience, somebody hears what you're saying, like, Hey, I like that guy think I can trust him and want to work with him. So you know, I feel like this is the same way, when we are placing ads or doing videos. And again, I'll put that as a question to you is that it's kind of where we need to go is not the not be too polished. I mean, we need to be professional, but there's definitely a sweet spot in between, they're

 

Geoff  21:33

totally right. And I think you got to think too, about these niches or someone like yourself, who's kind of understands ads more, he's seen it all, he's looking for that authentic organic content, we're going to try to reach you and these ads are going to hit with you. Maybe someone else who's, maybe they're new to the country, they're used to something else, you don't know who you're gonna hit on the internet. And that's the beauty of advertising is trying to create all these videos or millions of people, because everyone's different, you and I are different, you and I like different things. Something else is something new is gonna make me engage and not make you engage. So it's all about testing and finding those niches and targeting correctly.

 

Roy Barker  22:10

So what are some pleasant surprises? You know, what's what's one that you just knocked out of the park that you're like, still can't believe that happened? Yeah, so it's funny. We've my agency and my dad, there was a product that we worked with shamwow. I mean, we kind of were that Dr. agency at the start. He was like this, like pseudo celebrity. He just those first few products and just completely knocked him out of the park. The shaman was just a champion that I mean, you and I could go clean our car on a Saturday and maybe find it at at the Home Depot. And it would be to five bucks, this guy needed a whole business and a whole brand. Right? I mean, if he came to you with that product, and you never knew it, you and I would probably both laugh month like no way this is gonna work. Right? This is such a hard seller. He was so talented at selling it and making it look like such a unique product. And it just took off.  Oh my gosh, yeah, I thought it again a lot. I think he actually passed away if I'm not mistaken. around. I was around.

 

Geoff  23:15

Yeah. Yeah. He's just not as involved with advertising anymore.

 

Roy Barker  23:19

Okay, interesting. So, I guess, you know, as we kind of wrap this up, what are some things that you would recommend? Not only that people do but you know, maybe some information that it's helpful to pull together before somebody engages with you before we actually have a sit down?

 

Geoff  23:39

Yeah. So I think that it's the most important thing, right? Is just understanding your costs. What can you pay to acquire a new customer, you have to understand what your cost of goods are, what you're going to be paying for shipping? What's your product cost is all of these things. Once you have that sorted out, you're going to be so far ahead of the competition, we have people coming to us with no idea what their cost of goods, they don't know what they can pay to acquire customer. Understanding those metrics is going to set you so far ahead, because then that's going to help you determine who to work with what your budget is going to be, what the life of the product is, it's going to help you twofold. So definitely costing most important, what can you do to acquire the customer?

 

Roy Barker  24:18

Okay. Yeah, and I guess, kind of extrapolating that making sure that we have I guess at some point, we're going to, probably well, I guess I'll let I'll ask you this instead of guessing. So do we need to have a good web presence? Or is that part of do you build a like kind of like a off to the side landing page that really has nothing to do with my website where people can just go there, buy it and move on?

 

Geoff  24:46

Exactly what we'll build a completely separate website just for this campaign. As your website people are going to maybe know the name of it when you're advertising on Facebook and Instagram and people are just clicking the ad very rarely. They're going to read the URL and just memorize that calm, we'll create a completely separate siloed website on Shopify. And then after it's done, you own it, you take it, or you can just pause it and shut it down and just revert back to whatever you got existing.

 

Roy Barker  25:14

Okay. Okay, cool. Well, that's awesome. Geoff, it's been a lot of great information before we get away a couple things. Number one, you know, is there any other any last points or comments that you want to make before we wrap up?

 

Geoff  25:26

I think it's just right. First of all, appreciate you having me on was a pleasure to talk to you. And second, I mean, there's no bad ideas. Like I said to you, we've seen some of the worst become amazing. And some of the some of the best ones never succeed. So yeah, just kind of leave yourself understand the costs, and you never know what could happen.

 

Roy Barker  25:43

Yeah, never give up. Like I said, you know, you made this point too, is that even if I come to you with what we think is the best laid plans may be that just doesn't work the first time. So be prepared. Make this, like any marketing, make it for the long term. And, you know, if you just if you have to have the short bump, you just have to be able to hang on, sometimes it doesn't always happen, but just be able to be willing to work through everything to get on the right path. Okay, so do you have a tool or a habit? Is there something that you use in your daily life, professional or personal, that really adds a lot of value?

 

Geoff  26:23

Absolutely. I'm a huge note taker, right. And I am like a big To Do List guy, I write everything down every week, I have a to do list to check it off. Without it, I have no idea where it would be. It's kind of like my reminder. And that is my everyday to do list checklist, go through it. And old school write it down in a notebook, even though I would say maybe I'm early 30s, kind of a new generation, but I'm still the kind of old school in that regard.

 

Roy Barker  26:50

I got my little trusty notebook I keep with me, you know, when we do these, and it kind of going off of that, you know, the, there are a couple of note taking services out there that I've been, I'm trialing right now that are pretty cool. You know, when you're on a zoom call or something like that, because I talk to a lot of people, and sometimes it's like thumbing back through school can be burned. Same way, I'm given these trial to see, you know, how it is moving to the digital notetaking?

 

Geoff  27:19

Let me know, let me know when you find it, because you have to try it.

 

Roy Barker  27:23

 Yeah, yeah, it. It's, I guess it's here. You know, there's a couple competitors out there. So I think is probably here to stay. But anyway, yeah, I'll let you know how this goes in a month or so. So let's just kind of break it down a little more. So who do you like to work with? How can you help them? And of course, how can they reach out and get a hold of you?

 

Geoff  27:46

Yeah, I mean, we like to work with people that are passionate about their, their product or their service. They believe in it, they want to see it through, like you said, they're gonna be persistent. They're willing to work through changes, they understand that they're not going to hit the home right off the bat. Those of us who like to work with people that we resonate with, and get along with, but we're open to working with anybody. I mean, we have people from Australia, to Hong Kong to United States, obviously, in Europe, and we're based in Canada. So we work with everybody, and how they can reach us, you can find us kingstermedia.com. We have the contact form on the website, fill it out, we'll get back to you right away. Give us a call the phone numbers there, where we work 24 seven, we'll always get back to you and we'd love to see you succeed.

 

Roy Barker  28:28

Okay, great. Well, Geoff, thanks again for your time. And I can't say thank you enough for your patience through this. Not only for the last month getting you here, but also, we're getting on here tonight. So thank you so much for that. It's been a pleasure. Y'all reach out let Geoff help you put together a plan for your paid media advertising, that paid digital advertising, I should say and that way. Let him help you be successful. That's the best way is, you know, find these experts in this field. Let him do his thing in that way. We don't guys like me don't have to overthink it and make all the mistakes that we make trying to do it ourselves. All right. Well, that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, you can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com. We're on all the major podcast platforms at iTunes, Stitcher, Google, Spotify, we're on all the major social media platforms as well probably hanging out more on Instagram than anywhere else. A video of this interview will go up when the episode goes live, so you can check that on YouTube. Again, we appreciate our audience and we just take care of yourself and take care of your business. Until next time.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/geoff-crain-39958726/

https://twitter.com/KingstarDM

www.kingstarmedia.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

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Full Transcript Below

Podcast Hosting or Guesting, A Great Addition To Your Overall Marketing Plan featuring Elizabeth Pampalone

Fri, 6/25 12:16PM • 40:45

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, podcasts, guests, podcast, marketing, audience, host, call, talk, shows, pieces, episode, pitch, hear, months, email, tools, scout, conversation, collateral

SPEAKERS

Elizabeth, Roy Barker

 

Roy Barker  00:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy. Of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide variety of topics from a diverse set of guests. And today, we're lucky enough to have Elizabeth Pampalone back with us. She is an author, international speaker, podcaster, successful entrepreneur and expert marketer with over 20 years of experience. Her innovative approach helps overwhelm business owners and burnt out not for profit directors to achieve success and freedom through the power of Absolute Marketing. Elizabeth, welcome. Thank you for returning. We had such a good conversation last time before I let her go made her promise to come back on so thanks a lot.

 

Elizabeth  00:50

Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me back.

 

Roy Barker  00:52

So, um, you know, we talked about a lot of things. And I think today we kind of want to talk about to begin with anyway, podcasting as part of your marketing strategy, which I think is good. That'd be a lively topic. You've been on plenty of shows. And of course, you know, I think we're probably about an hour. I don't know, by the time this one airs, probably about 90, maybe get close to 100. So I think we both been around the block, we should be able to talk about this fairly easy.

 

Elizabeth  01:11

Yeah, yeah, I love podcasting. I actually was a radio DJ when I was 12, at a local station. And I did the weather, and I did the music. And it was just a little local station where I grew up, and I loved it. And I was like, I want to do this every day. That was kind of my first you know, everyone wants to be a doctor or a fireman, or, you know, whatever. It's like, No, I'm gonna be on the radio.

 

Roy Barker  01:51

You know, it's not as prevalent today. I know, we all listen to Sirius, and I've got my, my couple that I like on there. But you know, back in the day growing up, like DJs, they were the thing. And then if you got to meet one out in the public, you know, they used to come have album giveaways and stuff that yeah, it was pretty cool.

 

Elizabeth  02:11

Yeah, I when I met the ones that I knew from that station, you know, at 12 years old, I was just floored, I was like, Oh, my gosh, these people are on the radio every day. And it was kind of like, they were like celebrities, you know, because that's just not something everyone can get to do or gets to do. It's kind of like being on TV. And so um, so I was really thrilled to meet them. And then they said, you know, what, you you call us all the time you request songs all the time, you should just come in and do an afternoon, do a show.

 

And we did that a couple of times, my sister and I did that. And since then I you know, when podcasting became a thing, and it was very, very new, I jumped on the bandwagon, and I got the equipment. And I had like the editing software, and I was doing that. But I found that I was just so busy with my business that I didn't have time to do all the editing and do all the things I wanted to and do it the way I want it to. And so I gave it up, it was back burnered shelved until last year.

 

And before the pandemic, actually like January, I said, You know what, I'm just gonna do this again. And I'm going to do it totally differently. And that's why I do everything, especially in marketing. I'm like, let's just take this idea. Let's turn it on its head and do it completely differently. And I restarted my podcast in January. And we are 60 some episodes in. And also last year, as you mentioned, I was on 140 podcasts as a guest.

 

Roy Barker  03:34

Wow. Yeah, I think about the old You're way too young to even you need to go to the decades channel and watch this if they ever have it like Wk, AARP and Cincinnati with the the guy's name was venus flytrap and of course in the booth, he had this incense burning the lights down, he had a gong, he had the whole vibe going on. Well, let's talk about podcasting as a marketing strategy. And, you know, one thing I was gonna mention to you said, you know, you called in and did that it's a good lead in to this as well as the persistence.

 

You know, marketing takes persistence, you can't market for a day or two or week, even a month. I mean, it has to be such a long term commitment, because we may get lucky and I may send out a post something or send something out or do something that generates a couple phone calls. But I think the reality is in our marketing, we want it to, you know, kind of provide that pipeline support for us as we go always having people in the hopper. And I think, you know, something we've talked about a lot is what I like about podcasts is the trust.

 

Because it's there's two things that I feel like hope to accomplish with my podcast is number one, we introduce subjects to listeners that they may just not be aware of and may likely that's brand new, or we talk about something that they're like We'll just use marketing, you know, maybe they're struggling marketing, but they hear you, and you start to build that trust with the audience. And instead of me, you know, this is a kind of outdated reference. But instead of me going down the Yellow Pages and fan, pick it out some person.

 

 It's like, Hey, you know, I heard Elizabeth on the show, and I like what she had to say, I like her demeanor. So, you know, I really want to reach out to her. So, you know, those are the kind of the goals of me as a show host. And so, you know, I guess, let's talk about how that plays in, you know, from your perspective as the actual marketer.

 

Elizabeth  05:36

Yeah, when I started to get on podcasts, I was just playing, right, just just throwing out those applications, seeing what stuck. And when I got on so many, that was my goal, I hit my goal of 100, I kind of slowed down there. And I said, Okay, how do I now narrow down? I've been on a lot of good ones, I've been on a lot of bad ones. Now, how do I narrow that down and actually focus in on what those goals are, rather than just the goal being a number, right?

 

And I was really, you know, trying to find guests or guest slots and on shows where people like you were really vetting people a little further. And I think that that comes down to, you know, when you're marketing, you're not just doing it for a number I did that as an experiment. I do crazy experiments, do as I say, not as I do, right? Right. Right. So, but when I, when it comes to actually using this for clients, and telling other people, hey, you can do this too, I realized that people need to have that goal in mind first, before they even apply to anything. Because sometimes it's just about awareness. And that's, that's perfectly fine.

 

This medium is so great for awareness or for education, or for bringing a subject to light that may not be a very happy topic to you know, just throw around it, uh, you know, networking. A little more, you know, like, you want to really get into that nitty gritty, you want to get that hour long conversation going. So you can actually talk about something and have people understand what you're trying to say, rather than just giving your 30 seconds and moving on. And so this is a really great way to do that. It's also a one to many media.

 

So in marketing, there's a lot of one to many mediums. But this one is almost like one to one and one to many at the same time. Right. And with with social media, you're getting a one to many, you know, ratio there, but you're not getting a one to one ratio at all. Right? It's just you putting stuff out there, and you hope it works. Same thing with blogging, you're putting it out there, somebody's gonna find it at some point, right. But Same thing with your website with your brand, email marketing, it's all you pushing out you giving.

 

And with podcasting, when hosts are good hosts, which sometimes you get to go in sometimes to get bad ones. But when you find the good ones, it's a one to one relationship as well. And so now not only do we have a connection, and next time you hear someone that's in Mark, you know, that needs marketing or needs help. You might be like, Oh, yeah, let's, let's talk to Elizabeth. And so that's another thing that I think people are missing is that, they might say, well, that person doesn't have very many downloads.

 

But what you don't know is that they are actually the queen of networking in their city. They're doing, you know, they see more people on a regular basis than you see in a month. So that kind of thing, you know, not just saying not writing someone off, because they don't have very many, they have 10 downloads of their podcasts, or they've only done three shows. That means nothing to me in regards to that's not my goal. My goal is to not only have a good one to one, but also have a good one to many. But then that's also my responsibility to help share that with my audience and say, Hey, I was on this podcast, go check it out.

 

So now that that helps them, they're receiving that reciprocal, you know, help. Not only are they letting me on their show and talk for free, which is fun. But they're also receiving help now, for me and getting it to their to my audience. So now our audiences are in a sec intersecting. And I think when you go to apply for these things, it can be very daunting, because there are so many I mean, there are, I would say billions of podcasts at this point. And there's so many of them. Some people have multiple podcasts, which makes it the number incredible. And I have really found that if you have that goal in mind first.

 

That's great. But there are some marketing pieces that you need to have in place before you even just start applying because when I started applying, I had all that marketing stuff in place. Right? That's what we do at absolute marketing. That's That's our job, you know, so I was already ready to go with that. But what I found was that the more prepared I was, the better I got, like the easier it was to get on shows and the better response I got from hosts right. My pitch was done. So my pitch was written ready to go.

 

I had it copied and pasted. Sometimes I tweaked it if I needed to, you know for that specific show, but most of the time, the same pitch. I'm talking about the same thing. I'm going to the same time of shows, I'm going to all these marketing shows all these business shows, branding shows, I'm going to sit talk about the same thing regardless. So I had that ready, had my headshot ready had my mini bio, the one you just read earlier, many, but I'm talking many like two sentences.

 

And I have my links, all ready to go. And I created an online one sheet, to have all that ready so that when I send someone a pitch, I'm like, here's the online one sheet, you decide if you want me. And if that works, then I'll decide if I want you and then we'll see if it you know, actually becomes a thing.

 

Roy Barker  10:34

And that's a big deal to us that you've said a couple things that I'm going to try to go over First off, is it's so helpful as the host, to get the information because what I do is, you know, once we do this and publicize it, I put it up on my web page, and I want to give you credit, number one, but I want to also, you know, kind of hype you up a little bit. And so when, at the time of publish, when I have to go digging around, and people think, you know, you can you know, I hear this, you can find it on the internet.

 

Yeah, no, but I would say it, I don't do a lot of editing, I've had to start because of this, you know, like zoom now announces, we're recording and we're not recording. So I have to go in and cut, I've had to add a little bit more. But the reality is, even for me doing the little work, it could still take me up to three hours per episode to get it pushed out completely. And so and we do have multiple shows, we have an aging show. And so if we start looking at, you know, I publish at least two, sometimes three a week, so it starts eating into your time.

 

So thank you for that, it's such a blessing to have your page because I can choose the long bio short bio, you've got logos, headshots, you got all this stuff. But the other thing I was gonna say about the audience is, I think people don't, I don't know that they know how this works. Because my after, when you start doing it, you think I'm going to go out to this new audience and get a lot of calls. That's not necessarily true, I think sometimes you resonate with the audience, but there can be, you know, it takes some time to kind of make that happen.

 

But what I look at the real value of this is you get a free, you know, marketing spot done for you that you know, you can use and that's where I you know, always try to tell guest is, you know, it's my responsibility to to publicize the show and your episode when it comes out. But if you take that collateral, and you use it in the right method, you will gain so much more from your own audience and from new prospects hitting your website than what I can probably ever provide for you.

 

Elizabeth  12:52

I agree with that. I totally agree. And I think that, um, that, you know, just getting on the show on the shows, is just the part of it, you know, it's 1/3 getting there. The know, the second third is to do the show, do it well. And then the third part of it is to actually, like you said, reuse that content, right? I actually take every show that we do, and I put it into a spreadsheet. And I have all the collateral that goes with it, the specific dates, the specific, you know, who the host is, what the show name is the logo for the show, the title of the show the links to it, all that stuff, I put in a spreadsheet, and I give it to one of the people on our team, Lucy and she actually takes it and makes it a blog post.

 

And then that goes out to our entire email list and onto our social. So it's definitely reused. And I don't always put it out the same time that let's say you put yours out next week. I don't put mine out next week, I put my now which because of the how many I've been on it cuz sometimes gets delayed, might be three months from now, right? But that's okay. Because you've, you've pushed it out, you've gotten it out there. It's gotten a little gut little legs. And now as it starts to die down over those three, six months, whatever that time period is, I'm over here ready to pump it out again, and bring more new people to it that have never seen it never heard it.

 

Oh, I forgot about that, you know, whatever. And now they're seeing it again. So or seeing it for the first time even so I like to kind of stagger the risk of one person, both of us doing at the same time would be great. However, I like that staggered approach so that it kind of gets a resurgence later. And I've had people that have told me that when I posted my part of it so they put it out there they got their normal response, you know, however downloads, then I posted it later, three, six months later, and they got this huge surge on that one episode that was old at that point, right.

 

And and now they have this new like resurgence People who found their podcasts and never heard from them before, and you know that stuff. So. And I've had been the most popular episode on certain people's podcasts, which has been nice for me. But, you know, it's one of those things that I want them to see that success as well, because like you said, I might see a call or two from it, maybe, maybe not. But I want them to also feel that that success that they did a show that was resonating with enough people, not only from their own audience, but from mine as well.

 

Roy Barker  15:25

Yeah. And I think you're right, it's like, you know, we have to think about in marketing, not everybody in the world that needs marketing is searching for that today. I mean, this stuff happens over time. So is like, you know, having that little staggered approach, I think it helps both of us. And, you know, we go back, we we publish the art, the, I guess, the fresh episode, that week, our new release, we publish it through the week.

 

And we also try to interject some older ones that we've had in there just to kind of keep them fresh, because, you know, just like this, I could put it out to my audience. And then maybe nobody was really worried about marketing that week. And so, but when we push it back out again, in a month or two, then it's like, oh, yeah, well, we have listener now that they were thinking, you know, they need to check into marketing. And then kind of talking about that, too, as a host.

 

The other thing I tried to do is manage expectations that, you know, we have had very good response. And you know, we've got a lot of inventory built up. And we've got a lot of guests in the hopper at some point. And so you know, there's probably a two month delay between taping and actually releasing. And so I really try to manage those people that are in a big hurry, because, because I know what's gonna happen is once we tape, they're going to be on me to be you know, when's this coming out? How am I you know, because I've got a guy now that we've had some internet issues.

 

And so I've got a stacked up list of about, you know, 70 or 80, potential guests that we have got to get cycled through. I've got one guy, it's just like, almost daily, when are we going to get to type? When are we going to type? And, you know, I've had to say, look, we're gonna get to it, but it concerns me, because I feel like he thinks that the minute we air this, that his he's gonna be flooded with phone calls. And that's typically just not the way it works. And so manage those expectations.

 

Elizabeth  17:24

So I did the 140. And, and this is just true numbers. I had one show that had a major hit. Other shows had little hits here and there, some connections, that kind of thing. One show out of 140 major hit by the way, I applied to over 500, podcasts, four to 500 to get on 140. So out of all of that, and all the time and all the effort. One show netted me about 15,000 in revenue. Yeah. It was worth I felt like it was worth it. No, no, no nuts. However, it did take that long. And it did take that much for that kind of thing to become a reality.

 

And not only does it help with credibility, because then it's like, Wow, she's been on a lot of episodes. And Wow, she's done all these things, you know, and it gives you that credibility with people who are looking for you already to kind of help solidify those deals. But it does, if you're looking at it just as the only medium. It's not going to be the be all end all. But I do like it as we talked about the beginning part, right? part p AR t meaning of a whole it is one piece. And I usually like to use it as part of like a six piece marketing strategy.

 

Roy Barker  18:46

Yeah, and we'll get back to those six steps. Let me just mark that down six steps. So we don't forget to cover those. But the other great thing about this is it last forever, you know, we record this and it lives forever on my website, you know, we do the video. And so we've got it lives over on YouTube. And then we cut, you know, we'll cut this 40 minutes show down to we do at least 2/32 snippets where we can highlight something that you said of interest during the show. And then we use those because we don't, you know, on social media, I don't like to blow a whole episode out, it's a little more difficult for people to you know, stop at that point.

 

But if we can get there, they'll come back. You know, so all of that stuff lives out there forever. And then that's not even counting what you do with it. And then of course, it's yours to do with through the year. Whatever. You know, if you have a really good show that really highlights something that, you know, you can push it out there and multiple times. Yep, I totally agree. But yeah, you just have to really, yeah. And I think the other thing to talk about a little bit is that you know, preparing your pitch, you know, you Because there's broad categories. And one reason I like to, you know, I'm kind of old school.

 

And I've done this long enough that I like to have a 15 minute actual conversation prior to setting a taping date. Number one, make sure you're legit. You know, I was telling you, I've had a had a potential guest. That was when we were trying to do the 15 minute initial talk she was, you know, you don't have to call her back and redirect. And I've actually had one on the show that did that. And so, you know, I kind of watch for those cues. Are they engaged? Is it a good conversation? Because it's hard as a podcast host to say, Liz was Welcome to the show. So your mark in marketing? Yep. And, you know, and for me, the worst thing there is, is dead air.

 

And so I don't, you know, I want to give you a chance to respond, I don't want to be stepping on top of you. But the minute there's a pause, it's like, okay, I feel like I need to jump in here and do something or say something. So these are all the clues that I try to pick up, you know, when we talk initially. So, but I have had some, you know, I've been on podcast as well. And, you know, I've had some that they didn't give you anything, it's just show up at this time. And this date, which even as a guest I'm not that crazy about because I want to know, you know, where are we going with this, I don't want to get I don't like to throw my guests any curveballs. I definitely don't want somebody throw me one.

 

But, you know, I've had some that have been like a paper interview that, and I don't know, and I'm old school and kind of set in my ways I get that. But, you know, I just feel like, it's important for us to have a little bit of rapport. Because, you know, this is your second time on the show, which I totally appreciate that. But you know, like our first time when we came on, we were able to jump into a conversation because we had talked before and we don't know, you just kind of get a feel for people. So it was very easy, versus just firing up the tape recorder and being like, Alright, let's see what happens now.

 

Elizabeth  21:59

Yeah. Yeah, I like that, too. I think that's a good way to keep quality on the show really tight. And also to make sure that you're getting the right guests on that are going to set not only your agenda, they're going to fit your agenda. But that are also going to be it's going to be beneficial for them. Because sometimes, I've had people who've asked to be on my podcast, I do have guests occasionally, on my podcast, it's only two minutes long. So it's done a little differently. But I have had guests on there and I handpick them there. It's kind of an invite only kind of thing. I'm not being rude, but it is. And I've had people asked to be on my podcast.

 

And I've just say I handpick them. So if we'd like if you'd like to get to know me, if you'd like to book a call with me, and you make that initiative and say, well, then let me get to know you. Let me see if you want to handpick me, you know, that kind of thing. I would totally take someone up on that. But I have never had one person that has applied to be on my podcast, which by the way, there is no application there. Because I don't do that they've tried to apply, they just send me a cold email. And I'm just like, I handpick my guests not interested, unless you're interested in trying to make that happen, you know, and get to know me better so that we can see if this agendas work together.

 

Because sometimes it doesn't even it doesn't even make sense. They're just like, oh, marketing, great. Let me talk to you about SEO ads, whatever. And I talk about those things on our podcast, but I talk about them in very specific ways. And I also don't want a guest to come on my show and contradict me, like totally contradict me. And I have no way of responding, you know, in that way.

 

So, um, so anyway, I would love to, you know, see more people worried about the quality, but also, you know, this is a big project, you're not just doing this, like you said, it takes three, three plus hours to do one or two or whatever. This is not just something you just wake up and do and be like, yeah, whatever I'll do, it takes me 10 minutes big deal. In this is a big project. And I think some people, you know, they they use it to try and get fame, they use it to try and get whatever their agenda is.

 

And it's not always about the reason it should be about you know, meaning it should be providing quality to people who are listening, and it's about the listener, it's not about us, it's not about us doing anything. I mean, we could be talking about how to make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. But if that's what the audience wants, then it's gonna be valuable. So. So I definitely think that, you know, vetting the quality of the hosts and the guests and doing it at the same time and doing all that together is really important.

 

Roy Barker  24:30

Yeah, you know, we can't discount the fame part. I was at Starbucks the other day and said, Hey, I'm the host of the podcast and they're like, great, you still only $7 and Yeah, I was gonna say we don't do this for the don't do this for the money or the fame or the fortune that comes with it. Because it's fun. And you know, I think Yeah, when you were talking earlier about doing the one on one, you know, I kind of selfishly I don't hide from the fact that I do these for me. Because I love to learn, I mean, I love to learn all about all aspects of business. And, you know, the guests just I mean, the audience is just gets to, you know, they're get to hear what we talk about.

 

But you know, this is actually a one on one conversation that just gets recorded. But that's the other thing I think is what makes it interesting or makes it flow is I always ask my guests to speak from a point of passion. And, you know, I had some people like, well, what are your audience want, and I'm like, you know, what, they don't know a lot of times what they want, they want to hear about sales and marketing and all that. But if we talk about a piece of that, that they may be like, I didn't even know about that. And so that's why I say speak from a point of passion, something that you're really on fire, and that the other thing, the other part of that conversation is, you know, marketing is a huge umbrella.

 

And so trying to say, you know, if you want to talk in general terms, I get that, but is there a specific thing that you like to focus on? Is there something that you may have just finished a job with a client that you're like, Okay, I saw this, I've seen this three times in the last month, I need to get it out. So it gives you a chance to really speak from the heart. And that's, I think that's what makes a good conversation. If I tried to tell you, I need you to speak about this. To me, the conversation doesn't flow as good.

 

Elizabeth  26:22

Yeah, I agree with that. And, you know, I do want to give before we end the show, because I know it's come again, to that point, I can just tell. Before we do that, I do want to give everybody some takeaway things about about being a guest, about, you know, getting on the podcast, because I actually, because of my experience, last year, I the beginning of this year, I acquired a company called the pod Scout, okay, and it is amazing is adorable, I love the this little like little tiny company is like so small, but I love it. And so I acquired it, it's part of our absolute marketing brand, but it's called the pod scout.

 

And we now help other people to get on shows, okay, that the hosts for them, we find them the right people that are going to fit the agenda. So we we do this basically matchmaking service for podcasting. And the thing that I like about it is that it's simple. We're not doing anything fancy, we're not doing anything you couldn't do on your own. But what we find is that people don't have time, right, they don't have time to learn, they don't have time to really dive into this, because I spent an entire year last year learning all this and dealing with all this and figuring out all this process.

 

And then when I found this company that was kind of doing the same thing, I was like, let's just put all of our expertise together and do this like really big and really, like do it the right way. And so, so this company is a podcast booking service. But one of the things that I've seen over and over and over is that when you aren't you want to get on podcast, even if you want to be a speaker, just to be a speaker on a webinar, or, you know, speaking at virtual summits, whatever. Having the one sheet is super important.

 

And we talked about this, I think before, you know, when you have a one sheet, the PDFs are cute, you can make them look like whatever you want, that's adorable. But that doesn't mean that your host can always get the information out of the PDF that they make. Some of them aren't formatted properly. So I like to build them in a web page, I like to have them on a hidden page on my website. And, and make sure that like, my BIOS are there, my logos are there, we talked about, you know, links, links to social, all that stuff should be there.

 

So that when you as the host go there, you're like, oh, everything is here, I don't have to go hunting for it. Right. Um, and like you said to that that one sheet is important, but then that pitch, writing that perfect pitch. And I got the guys over at pod scout to actually add this as a service because like, people don't know how to write their own pitches, they don't want to brag on themselves. We're a modest people most of the time.

 

And so when people don't want to brag on themselves, they won't write a good pitch, but we can brag on them. And then they can just use it. Right? Exactly. We like to write pitches for people at the pod scout and give you that bragging that you probably wouldn't write yourself, but we can do it for you. And it's it, you'd be surprised how that comes across,

 

Roy Barker  29:20

you know, in any form of life, really not just podcasting, but it's like, you know, if you're telling me how great you are, I'm always like, you know, you kind of have to take a breath and say, you know, really, where's that but then you know, if somebody else is bragging on you, and that's why, you know, it's so important to get referrals, you know, for your business, because I can tell you how awesome of a consultant I am and this and that, but if Joe Smith, my last client is willing to tell you that it makes a world of difference.

 

Elizabeth  29:52

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, like we talked about this is a part of marketing. This is a piece that you can use to build credit. ability to gain influence. And I think that, you know, if you're doing if you have a strong brand, if you know who you are and what you do and who and who you're sharing it with, you have a great website where I can find all the information about you. And what you do. If you have, and I can contact you, that's the most important thing.

 

If you have a good social media presence, where you do have a little bit of an audience, it doesn't have to be 18,000 people, it could be 500 people, and you can have just as much luck as someone who has 20,000 followers. So if you have a good social media presence where you can, when you get these shows, take them and sort of pushing them out on that on that platform, having a good blogging presence so that you're getting that SEO and you're getting more of an audience to coming to you that so that they can come in, you enjoy the shows that you've been on.

 

And when someone searches for you, after they hear you want to show because they might not have heard the link, or they might not have seen the page, they might just type your name in, that's going to help you as well having blogs and SEO out there. And then finally, your email marketing, if you don't have a way to get this to your past clients, people who you've already worked with, that you've been on a show that you have this new information for them, or a new show for them to listen to, then that's going to basically just fall flat.

 

And if you've got that audience ready to go, then you've been building that email list over time, as you start to get those shows you're going to have somewhere an avenue to push them. And like you said, Sometimes this these pieces of collateral, these shows can help you so much more with your current audience than they even do with someone else's audience that you're on the show for. So I definitely agree with that. So those five pieces plus podcasting, just match made in heaven.

 

Roy Barker  31:38

Well, and the other thing is, I think you have to look at this whole show, as you need to look at it in little pieces, because you can blow the whole show out. And maybe people have the time right now to listen to it. But what we tried to do and what I always, you know, what I would advise guests to do as well, is look at, because we put up a transcript it's a, so it's not always perfect, but it'll get you close enough that you can take a snippet of exactly what you've said on here that's valuable to your audience.

 

And you know, use it on your social media with the little cover that we send out. You know, there's just so many ways to slice it up that you can really get a lot of mileage out of one podcast. Yeah, especially because we have the audio video. And then the, you know, the Canva covers, I don't know what you'd call that. But you know, kind of the little thing that just says, Hey, you were on this podcast. And here's what we talked about.

 

Elizabeth  32:36

Yeah, like the little social images. Yeah, that's, that's great. And I, like I said, You're touching every single one of those five pieces, and you have this podcast you've been on and that podcast has a little bit for each one of these pieces. You're using it as a blog post and talking about being on the show and posting the link, you're using it to go out to your email marketing, you're using it on social, you have it located on your website, and you have when you've been on the show us your brand and talked about your business.

 

Not necessarily way, but in an educational way, then you've basically covered all the bases in in that and now you have done all of your marketing, basically in one show, because you've used that one show to help you market your business all the way across the board. And when you spread everything out like that, and you're not just worried about let me get on the show, because that's going to make my phone ring. But you're worried about the all the five pieces that we talked about plus adding that podcast isn't that six piece, then you're going to see growth.

 

Just regardless, you you have to budget to be consistent, right? We talked about that you have to be consistent with it. But you have to also make sure that it's spread across the board. You're not just focusing on this podcast, you better make it otherwise my phone won't ring, you know, that kind of thing.

 

Roy Barker  33:49

Exactly, exactly. Well, that's a lot of good advice. I appreciate you taking time again, out of your day to be with us. And I might ask you again, see if you've developed anything new, but so what's the habit or tool or what's something that you're using every day now, that really adds a lot of value to personal professional. And I know that you just got a new just got a new office. So that's awesome. Congratulations on that.

 

Elizabeth  34:18

Thank you. Thank you. Um, yeah, so I don't know if I mentioned this one last time. But I do have a pro toolkit. And I have all the tools that I use in there. And I do use them every day. Because I'm a tool fiend, I love tools. But I do have a specific set. And I do kind of keep that that set like really tight. So if I change something out, it changes on the website as well. So I want to make sure everybody knows exactly what I'm using. But one of the tools that's on there and there I believe there's a discount associated with it on the website is called drag. And it sounds very weird, right? Drag What does that mean?

 

But it's actually a gmail kind of like plugin in a way and we use G Suite for our company. So we have all of our team on G Suite. And this is a plugin that goes into G Suite. And it allows you to create a Trello like board out of your emails. So when someone sends me an email, let's say, Roy, you send me like all the collateral pieces for this episode, I can then take that email without forwarding it. And I can drag it to my team members section, their little board that they have. And I can, I can actually put a note to them on it, I can give them tasks on it.

 

And I can even chat with them back and forth, all on that email without ever leaving Google and still have all the project management and everything that's there. So there's a ton of stuff that it does that I absolutely love, I have tried other tools to try and replace it with something else. have not found one. I've searched high and low, still have not found one. So if you're using Google, and you need something where you are constantly forwarding emails, and you're tired of that, definitely look at drag, and it will help you to manage not only teams.

 

But I've also noticed, you can actually add anyone to this board, they don't have to be on G Suite team, they don't have to be in G Suite in general, they can just be another gmail address. And they'll actually be able to access the boards as well. And it's basically like Gmail and Trello had a baby. So it's really, really helpful and really, really useful.

 

Roy Barker  36:21

Okay, cool. I'll go check that out. Yeah, cuz that's, uh, you know, sometimes we, you know, a myriad of tools we use for that. But, you know, just being able to pull stuff over and run a little note, that's awesome.

 

Elizabeth  36:33

Yeah, and we can chat back and forth on it, which I love. So you never see the chat, you never see anything, but as the person who sent the email, but now that email came to my address, but someone else with a different address, who's associated with my boards, they can actually see the whole email, they can read the replies, they can see the whole chain, they can actually interject themselves and reply to everyone in that chain as well.

 

And then also them and I can have a separate conversation on the side that no one else sees. When we're chatting back and forth. Maybe they have a question or, you know, should I follow up on this or whatnot, you can assign dates, you can assign color coding, there's just so much you can do with it. And I really, really liked the the tool.

 

Roy Barker  37:15

I liked it. I will check that out. All right. Well, thanks again, we certainly do appreciate it. Now, tell us a little bit before we go not only about pod Scout, but tell us a little bit about Absolute Marketing, you know, who do you like to work with? What can you do to help them? And of course, how can they reach out and get a hold of

 

37:32

you? Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Absolute Marketing is a marketing firm. And we create one year of marketing content in five days. So we do things really quickly, we create a brand in a day, a website and a day 365 social media posts in a day. And also 12 months of blog posts in a day and 12 months of email marketing funnels in a day. So we're really working to get everything done so that you can actually go and run your business and you don't worry about all this stuff.

 

And it does work for almost every single industry that we've worked with, I think, you know, we haven't had one yet that we've run into that it hasn't worked for. So if anybody wants to try and stump us, let me know. But with pod Scout, we've added this as this extra pillar. So normally we do the five days and like we're good to go. But we've decided that podcasting is what is good for some people in some industries. If you're that type of person who wants to do that some people are like, No, no, not me, not in front of the camera, not in front of on stage, not talking in front of people.

 

And so we've decided that this is kind of like an add on piece and Pod Scout is that's where you get that from is there going to help you with that booking service, they're going to get you through that process. They also have something which I developed that they're using, which I love is called podcasts in a day. And because I've been able to streamline the process to create my podcast and the tools that we use, they now help people to create a podcast in a day, and they will record episodes with you walk you through the process of editing.

 

And it's something that anybody can do, literally anybody can learn. So we do that as a service as well. We also have the Perfect Pitch, which we write your pitch for you. And then of course, we have the booking service where we book you on podcasts. So it's just a great, it's a great system. And I'm so glad that I'm working with them now and we're all kind of in the same office together. So it's really fun.

 

Roy Barker  39:20

Yeah, that's cool. That's a great addition. Because I think, you know, of course I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think it was an you know, a great tool for marketing. You know, not only my my services, but also you know, just delivering your information to my audience. It's I love it. It's a great platform.

 

Elizabeth  39:39

Yep, I agree.

 

Roy Barker  39:40

All right. Well, y'all reach out Oh, did you say the

 

Elizabeth  39:45

Oh, Get Absolute Marketing.com? Yeah, yeah.  Yeah, and it's The Pod Scout.com

 

Roy Barker  39:53

Okay, The Pod Scout.com and Get Absolute Marketing.com

 

Elizabeth  39:57

Yeah, Get Absolute Marketing.com.

 

Roy Barker  39:59

Oh, Great, y'all reach out, see how Elizabeth can help you if you need some marketing help. She's got a great five day plan if you want to be in being start being a guest on some podcasts, she can help you out. Even if you want to get into podcasts and sound like they can help you out. So go over and check it out. We certainly do appreciate you taking time out of your day. We appreciate our listeners taking a few minutes out of their day to listen as well. You can of course find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com we're on all the major social media platforms. We're on all the major podcast platforms iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, if we're not on one that you listened to please reach out I'd be glad to add it. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.

www.thepodscout.com

www.getabsolutemarketing.com

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Hit A Revenue Ceiling? Not To Worry, You Need a Sequencing Strategist! Featuring Danna Olivo

Sometimes that next step is the most elusive but the most productive and beneficial one you can take. Most businesses go through this. They reach a point they cant breakthrough. That's when it's time to call for help. Put the ego aside and get in touch with a strategist who can look from the outside in.

About Danna

Danna is a Business Growth Strategist and CEO of MarketAtomy, LLC. Her passion is working with small first-staged entrepreneurs to ensure that they start out on the right foot and stay on the path to financial freedom. Known as the Business Birthing Specialist, Danna understands the intricacies involved in starting and running a successful business. Her efforts extend beyond the initial strategic planning process on into the implementation and monitoring phase. She has recently launched the first eLearning environment specifically targeting small micro-businesses called MarketAtomy.Academy.

A graduate of the University of Central Florida’s College of Business, Danna holds degrees in both Marketing and Management Information Systems (MIS). She brings more than 40 years of strategic planning experience in business structures, marketing and business development both nationally and internationally.

Danna is not only a professional business growth strategist but is a public speaker and best[1]selling author on Amazon. She has published 5 books, the latest “Social or Sociopathic” dropped May 17th of this year.

Danna’s Resume/CV can be found at https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannaolivo

www.dannaolivo.com

www.marketatomy.com

www.marketatomy.academy

www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com

Full Transcript Below

Hit A Revenue Ceiling Not To Worry, You Need a Sequencing Strategist! Featuring Danna Olivo

Tue, 7/13 12:12PM • 38:52

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

business, atomy, company, danna, people, academy, assessment, kpis, sales, reach, marketing, businesses, product, important, understand, build, growth, stage, platform, money

SPEAKERS

Danna, Roy Barker

Roy Barker  00:05

Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. I'm your host Roy, of course, we are the podcast that brings you a wide range of guests that talk about a lot of diverse topics. We want to maybe bring something to your attention you hadn't thought about or we actually want to provide resources in case there's something that's keeping you up at night. We have a mix of good professionals in the industry and today is no different.

 

We've been waiting quite a while but we're glad to have Danna Olivo. On she is with MarketAtomy. And she is a growth strategist and CEO of MarketAtomy. Her passion is working with small first stage entrepreneurs to ensure that they start out on the right foot and stay on the path to financial freedom known as The Business Birthing Specialist. Danna understands the intricacies involved in starting and running a successful business. Danna, thank you for taking time out of your day to be with us. We certainly do appreciate it.

 

Danna  01:04

Thank you, Roy, I'm looking forward to it.

 

Roy Barker  01:06

Yeah, on First off, we're gonna, I want to get before we jump too far. And I want to get a little bit of your background, if you could tell us, you know, what, what has kind of led you to this point and kind of what you've got going on?

 

Danna  01:20

Um, well, my background is primarily in marketing and business development. And I started for Oh, my goodness, I started for the first probably 30 years of my career in the architectural engineering construction market. Oh, primarily doing marketing and business development forum. In 2009, I was laid off of the, from one of the largest construction management companies, and from there to myself internationally and to Brazil, basically connecting creating inroads for companies here that were closing their doors because of the recession in companies in Brazil. And upon returning from that, about four years later, is where market Atomy was the concept of Mark anatomy was developed and birth.

 

Roy Barker  02:11

Okay. Yeah. And we'll, we'll talk a little bit more about the Market Atomy Academy, which I think I'll let you explain it more in detail. But I think with the pandemic, everything kind of you saw some of that in person business go away and trying to figure out a way to make this financially feasible for micro businesses and solopreneurs, to actually, you know, get some of the help that they need, which I think is awesome, because, you know, one thing, what I found is that this pandemic has forced people, while it's closed a lot of businesses, it's forced a lot of people into business that never really set out to be an entrepreneur.

 

So while I may be an awesome plumber, or an awesome CPA, now that I've got three people working for me, it's like, oh, my gosh, you know, now what? So I think that's awesome. But before we get even too far into that I wanted to talk about let you tell us about your assessment tool, I would kind of be the beginning is that I think this assessment tool will can help identify some issues with businesses. So I'll let you tell us.

 

Danna  03:19

Exactly, no, you're absolutely right, Roy, the assessment tool that will be beta launch, the beginning of August, is a standalone assessment platform for existing small businesses, generally, they're about a year, year or more in existence, you know, making some kind of revenue. But what what's happened is they've reached a ceiling, to where they're having trouble growing and breaking through that ceiling. The assessment came about because I'm working with my clients. On a one on one basis, I was spending on average, about four hours in the very beginning, asking a series of questions because as a strategist, I needed to understand where they were at that point in time.

 

And part of my job is to find out where those gaps are in the company. So in an effort to streamline this process, is where I started to put it online to make it you know, something that they could take before I even really met with them. And as a result of that it's morphed into a standalone platform. And what it does is it assesses existing companies across 20 different key performance indices, the KPIs In other words, okay. And these 20 different KPIs are boiled down into five critical areas. One is operational strength, what is the financial strain? What is the sales and marketing strength of the company?

 

What is the product and service viability ratio and Also the overall health of the organization and their management team. So individuals, companies that take this assessment will get scored in those five areas. But by examining the responses to all 20 of the KPIs, I can go in and pretty much give you an idea where the gaps are in the company, because they're all interdependent, all the KPIs are all interdependent. And so we can pretty much detect where those gaps are, where things are dropping off. Yes.

 

Roy Barker  05:32

Yeah, I think that's awesome. Because, to me, that's there's a lot of information that's out there online. But unless we stop and make a true assessment, and I mean, an honest assessment of where we are, right this moment, not where we think we should be, not where we hope to be, but what is our state now, because I use the example like, you know, I want to take a trip to Chicago, so I want to go out the door and turn to the west. But, you know, if I'm starting in Las Vegas, not gonna make it. So you know, we have to know where we are, at this moment before we can start that growth pattern and try to figure out, you know, what's holding us back? So

 

Danna  06:12

I think you're absolutely right, you know, this assessment, like I said, I've had, where clients will come to me, and they'll say, Look, I'm having trouble meeting my, my growth goals, my revenue goals, you know, we need to have an overhaul on the sales department, we need to understand what's going on. And the first thing I will do is, I'll ask them, are you sure it's your sales department? Because you can't put all the blame on the sales, because sales relies on pricing. It relies on your messaging out in the market, it relies on a viable product or service. So if you're not exploring all of those areas as to why your sales are not increasing, you're doing your company injustice, you're doing yourself injustice. Yeah,

 

Roy Barker  06:58

yeah. And I think with smaller companies, it's much easier. But if you have two people in this, the marketing and sales function, I think this amplifies that message that you're saying is that we have to have communications because I'm doing an awesome job marketing. And, you know, we're getting all these leads that are coming in, and I'm smiling every day happy, because I'm really knocking it out of the park. The problem is, if those aren't suitable customers for our product, and I, you know, I kind of like to use an extreme, we'll just say that it's an adult beverage that you have to be 21 to drink.

 

So if I've got 10, and 12 year olds responding to my ads, those aren't even my customers, they, we couldn't sell that to them if we wanted to. And so, again, that's an extreme case, but we have to look at it in our business, if we are generating a lot of traffic that aren't, don't have don't need the money yet qualified prospects were, it's not doing us any good. So that's why I just can't stress enough that communication between who's doing your marketing and who's doing your sales because each one of them can flourish, and it really not be helping the other.

 

Danna  08:12

Right? Right. And if you are not, if that's not your your forte, say marketing or sales or something like that, if you if your forte, or your strength is in product development, or in manufacturing, you need to stick with what you are strong. Okay, and don't try and do everything in order to save money. Because what happens if you end up spending more money than you do saving money? You know, nowadays, with the gig economy, you can farm a lot of this stuff out for pennies on the dollar.

 

Roy Barker  08:47

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great message too. Because sometimes when we morphin, to that, there can be a lot of reasons we think people won't do it as good as we can. We can't afford it. But like you said, if you're a good salesman, stick to sales, and then on somebody to do your books, because you're going to end up paying more money at the end at the end of the year. than if you had a professional somebody that knows that.

 

Taking care of it for you. So yeah, so what are some other things that you're, you know, that you've been identifying through? You know, talking with small businesses and I guess, you know, talking about the Academy, you let's talk about the beginning of that for just a minute, you know, you think you used to do a lot more in person up close and personal work and then the pandemic said in

 

Danna  09:39

and that's that's right. When I originally when I got back from Brazil, the reason the market Atomy Academy Today was a rebranding of the company that I went into Brazil with, okay, and what had happened when I got back from Brazil. I had been in a very bad accident in Brazil. I was hit by a bus crossing the street, Oh, wow. So therefore there was about eight years to 12. I mean, eight to 12 months there that I was going through surgeries and things.

 

And what happened when I got finally got back to the United States is a lot of companies within the industry I was in, which is the architectural engineering construction industry, a lot of companies that had been forced to start their own organizations because they couldn't find work. Were coming to me and saying Danna, I don't understand what I'm doing wrong. I'm bleeding money, I've been trying to, you know, make ends meet, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing wrong here.

 

And in the process of trying to explain to them the infrastructure of a successful business is where I realized they did not they had a good product or service offering, but didn't know how to build a business around it. Right? Okay. And so for that reason, in order to explain to them, when they didn't have that business knowledge, they didn't have the marketing knowledge or anything like that, I came up with what's called the market anatomy concept. And it's the marketing, anatomy. And market Atomy concept is built around the human body, that's where the anatomy comes in. Okay?

 

What I showed them through the human body is, you look at the heart of the human body, and the heart is your why it's your passion. But up in your brain is your playbook. That's where all your education where your product and service offerings are, your, your processes, your systems, everything is up in the brain. And when you think about it, in the heart operate without the brain and the human body,

 

Roy Barker  11:47

no,

 

Danna  11:47

no, is the same way in business, you need both the brain and the heart, operating simultaneously, to push your marketing message out through the veins of the body, which are your marketing channels, to your market, which is the body. And if you take it one step further, there's also the soul of the business. That's you, you as the business owner, it's your culture that drives the business. And so by doing that, I was able to show them that all of that needed to be in place for them to bring customers through the door. Because without that, you have no customers and without no customers, there is no business. Right? Right. You know, that's where market Atomy came about.

 

Roy Barker  12:37

Okay, I think that's you make an important part about this is that a lot of times we see people get into business, because they think there's a lot of money in that space. And that may be true. But I think you know, to have a truly sustainable business that you can be happy in for a lot for a long time, you really have to get your heart into you have to have something that you'd wake up every day for, you know, whether you're getting paid or not, you know, for me, you know, I've been fortunate enough to have that my whole life. And you know, what the money is just a bonus. But you know, getting up and doing that mission, it's so important.

 

Danna  13:15

Well, and as I tell my clients, there's two different wise, you know, you've got two wise for doing what you do. One is the professional Why? Why do you do what you do for your clients? What motivates you to do you know, your business? Well, but there's also that personal life. And that personal Why is just as important, because that is the why that motivates you to get over those hurdles to break through those ceilings of hard time.

 

And those personal wise can be, you know, that I advise them to make short term and long term wise, okay, for instance, my Why is ultimately, I want to be able to buy a large piece of land and build several homes on it so that all my kids and my husband and I can be on the same piece of land, you know, and almost like a commune type thing.

 

Roy Barker  14:07

Right? Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think we, you know, maybe this message is more for people thinking about getting business or maybe even for those that are very young in it is that it's tough. And you know, I think, you know, I did this, it's exciting, it's fun. All of those are great reasons. But, you know, you have to really have your heart in it. Because there are days when you wake up, or, you know, there's some struggles that you might have going through this that you might you have to have that in order to go on.

 

You know, I had, in an interview one day, late, we start talking about how many times people want to quit in business. And she says, Have you ever wanted to quit? And I said, Yeah, probably three times this morning. You know, you have to really, you have to have that like Nothing's gonna stop me, I'm pushing through this. And you know, one of my favorite little cartoon means it's the, they're two cave men one on, you know, it's like two separate features on top and bottom.

 

And they're digging through this mountain and one guy, he's like, two inches away from breaking through to the gold, and he's turned around walking out with his axe on his shoulder. And there's so many stories of that people that have come so close to success. But they, you know, I just take it that their heart wasn't in it enough that they could push through that. So anyway, it's kind of a little bit of a sidebar. But I think it's important just to stress that, that it's not what you see on TV, or what you seen people's means that it's like you throw your shingle out, and money's rolling in and you're buying yachts, and you're successful. I mean, most of us, it's a grind every day, you have to get up do the basics. And that's what makes us successful over time.

 

Danna  15:57

Right? Well, I've had two failed businesses in my past, which is part of the reason why I did start market Atomy is I wanted to take those lessons learned and help others in the same position, avoid those lessons, you know, after the two failed lessons, I went back to school, and I got my degree. That was a three year process, I got two degrees during that three years.

 

But where I'm going with, this is why I had originally set up the market Atomy Academy, it had always been my dream to take what I taught my, you know what I mentored my small business solo entrepreneur accounts with to take this online, because working with micro solo entrepreneurs, I knew they could not afford my consulting services. All right, my one on one, even though I had those beforehand, there were a lot of them that just couldn't afford it. Right. And so I wanted to take it online and make it at a price point that they would be able to afford without having to go back to college.

 

And the onset of COVID threw me into this quicker than I had planned, I probably would have taken a lot longer to do this. But the timing was perfect for this. Because there's been an 83% increase in new business license applications since the beginning of COVID. Yeah, you know, and when we've got, you know, anywhere from 70 to 75% of these small businesses failing within a two to five year period, right, they need to know, yeah, we we are the US make it so easy for businesses to start a business. You know, you just you just go in there, you purchase your license, you get your, your incorporation papers, if you if that's the route you're going, and you're in business, right. But we don't make it easy for those first stage businesses to survive.

 

Roy Barker  17:59

Yeah, yeah. And another part of that message, I think, too, is that we, as entrepreneurs, we feel that we have all the answers, and that it might show weakness to reach out for help, or that we don't want anybody knowing our business. And I just, you know, I can't stress enough that seek help if you are struggling, because, you know, a lot of times people come so far, and then you know, they hit a wall that may there's something that may be condoned to get over that.

 

But, you know, we have to reach out. And that's another great thing about the online is, you know, maybe it's a little bit more anonymous for people to kind of get started and, you know, be able to learn some things without feeling like they're having to, you know, tell all the, you know, negative stories to somebody.

 

Danna  18:50

Right. And that, that's, that's one of the things that one of the primary reasons for the academy and the way that we structured the Academy, the value that we bring over the other educational platforms out there, like Udemy, lynda.com, you know, a lot of those that are out there is the fact that first of all, we focus only on solo micro entrepreneurs, those small business owners, doesn't mean larger ones can't send, you know, you can't come in and take it, you know, it's a subscription based platform. And all of our, the entire platform is focused on a five growth stage process.

 

Okay, there's five growth phases that a company goes through, especially early stage, you've got the see it stage, that's your vision stage, that's where it's get the napkin, idea, etc, okay. Then you move into the proven stage. You want to make sure that your product or service is a viable product or service, one that people are going to be willing to pay money for and that is needed out there or wanted out there. And then you move into the build stage. It's at this point that you take what you want to do, and you start building the company, the business model around it. This is also where you start getting your revenue, you start building your marketing strategy, everything. Alright? Once you've got that built, now you're starting to see, okay, I want to grow my business.

 

But first, you have to fund it. That's the fourth phase, you have to find out, are you going to self fund this? Are you going to bring in angel investors? What are you going to do? And then finally, you move into the growth stage, this is your 10x conversion stage. This is where you're going to grow your business and start working towards your exit strategy. Right. So the entire platform is built along those five phases. So every one of the courses offered fall within one or more of those phases. Okay? purposes want to give them a sequencing aspect. Because a lot of business owners are asking, What do I do first? Right, what do I do next? When do I do this, and that's what we wanted to do is to clarify this for them.

 

The other thing that we do is every one of our courses that we offer, range anywhere from free, the top one is 199 $199. Alright, so they're all the bulk of them are between 25 and $65. So they're affordable. And then every course is got two components to it. One is the learning component was actually learn, you know, if it's a cash flow, you know how to build a cash flow, you learn. And then you move into an integrated experiential learning component, whereas you will have the tools available for you to sit down and actually develop a cash flow, or develop a strategy customized to your business helps. Or it's from becoming shelf help. We want to make sure that you're building that into your business right now.

 

Roy Barker  22:15

Yeah. Yeah. And there's nothing worse than, you know, being a consultant type and, you know, going out and working for somebody, and then when you come back years later, and you see that awesome work you did, sitting on somebody's shelf.

 

Danna  22:34

Oh, and then the other thing to keep to add to this, when you were talking about asking for help included with all of our subscribers, we have a bi weekly group coaching session, as well as a private facebook page and a bi monthly mastermind program. Okay. So we are a firm believer in the fact that accountability is a huge aspect grow. You can get the learning you can get the education, and things like that, but you need that accountability to keep moving forward. Yeah. Yeah,

 

Roy Barker  23:09

if somebody has a few employees, are these courses designed? Basically, for that business owner? The one that's driving the decisions are, are some of it set up that maybe I've got my, you know, right hand administrator, I would like them to go through this as well.

 

Danna  23:25

They can do that as well. They can be a subscriber as well, the, in fact, you know, I would recommend it. But I would also recommend that the owners, at least go through the courses because even if you're going to pass that, on that responsibility on to somebody else, you need to understand what they're doing. Yeah, it does. It's up to you. Ultimately, you need to know what your numbers are, you need to understand how to read a balance sheet, you need to understand, you know, how to develop a marketing strategy. You don't have to do it. You don't have to understand that much. Yeah. But be able to understand when it's explained to you, here's what we're doing and why we're doing it.

 

Roy Barker  24:07

Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes even it's good to even if you're pretty far along, maybe it's good to step back, make sure we have this firm foundation, then, you know, kind of not necessarily do a relaunch, but be able to make sure we've put all the pieces together before we start moving much further down the line.

 

Danna  24:25

Now, that's exactly it. Now we're here to to provide all the resources that a solo or micro entrepreneur will need in order to grow their business. You know, we hear all these stories about why these businesses are failing the 70 to 75% is because of lack of leadership. It's because of lack of funding, you know, processes all of that. But it's my belief that the real reason these businesses are failing is lack of education. If they have That education, they'd be able to find the money, they'd be able to find the team that they need to build that team, and everything that is needed to be done. If he knew how to do it, you'd be able to do it.

 

Roy Barker  25:13

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And a lot of times, we just don't know where to turn for help. So you know, a great, great resource for people to turn to, to, you know, get that education. And I guess even I would, if I was thinking about being in business, I was like, Hey, I think I've got a good idea. But I'm really on that fence about whether to launch or jump in, would this be something that maybe could help me make this decision? Or I guess the sooner we start, the better, but, you know, would it be useful to somebody that maybe wasn't already started in business yet?

 

Danna  25:49

And definitely, this would be a resource for that. Because in the very first date, two phases, which is that the, the vision stage, okay, the see it stage, and the proven stage, all right. As a subscriber, you're going through these group, coaching sessions and the mastermind programs, you'll be able to get feedback from other members in there that will help you determine Okay, is this a viable prospect? You know, is this a viable product or service? It's, it's, it's just another way, operating in a vacuum, when you're a small business owner is the worst thing you can do? Yeah. Okay, you've got to be able to speak to other other entrepreneurs, other, you know, leaders, things like that, in order to make credible decisions moving forward.

 

Roy Barker  26:42

And the great thing is that, you know, you've kind of formed a roundtable as well, that if I'm having an issue, there's probably somebody else in the group that is that has gone through this. And that may not be my answer, but at least you can get some input and some suggestions about what they have done to overcome. And that's something you know, we've talked about before, is, you know, forming these leadership roundtables. And you know, the great thing is, this is already pre formed when you don't have to have to go out and look for anybody.

 

And so the other thing, too, they're probably geographically dispersed. So we're not talking to our competitors. But you know, it, to me, it's very, very helpful to talk to others to say, Hey, this is what I can't seem to overcome. And some of it's time, I mean, it's like, if the world would stop for five minutes, and you could research everything. But, you know, a lot of times we don't, we just can't find the time or, you know, the business pushes on that this will make that part of that much simpler,

 

Danna  27:41

right. But the other thing that we do offer through the Academy is resource management session section. So as they're going through the growth process, you know, say they needed a website developer, or, you know, something like that. We have resource partners there, that are listed in the website, all of them have been vetted by myself and my team to have programs that will work that they can work with, with small micro businesses, it's not these developers or whatever that are the charging $40,000 for a website, you know, and things like that. And which we don't recommend you doing in the first place. You start out small, especially solo and micro entrepreneurs, you start out small, you don't need a 40,000 you might a 5000 for a website. Yeah, you know, or less.

 

Roy Barker  28:41

No, that's good. That's good advice, too, because sometimes we don't know who to turn to. And the first couple people we talked to want to give us a lot of things that may not be necessary. In the beginning, let's get this thing going, let's make some money. And, you know, worry about the things that matter, selling, you know, make sure we have a good product or service, make sure it's priced. Right.

 

You know, that's the other thing I think that we talked a little bit about, or you mentioned earlier, is the pricing and I can't ever can ever emphasize this enough that we have to really look at pricing because one of the very first people I worked with when I started consulting was it was a friend, but he had a service that you know, one of the first things I asked was so how did you arrive at this price? And he said, Well, the guy down the street charges you know, $5 more so we just said so I said well let's take a look at this you know.

 

What's your labor, your vehicle cost your mileage, your gas, your or, you know, the building, what's all these things that go into making that up and he was very surprised when we you know, put it down on paper because he was way under charging. So right now there's so many different components like that, that we just have to pay attention to make sure that we get everything And so again, instead of focusing On the some of the bells and whistles, and things that aren't important, it sounds like that this will focus people on really what these core KPIs that we need to worry about are

 

Danna  30:12

right there. I mean, you know, one of the courses that we offer to me through the Academy is pricing strategy, you know, helping them do that develop that pricing strategy, whether they're using a distributor, or whether you know, it's wholesale, or retail, or whatever. I mean, I add, I can give you a little story. I got lots of little stories, but I had one company that manufactured they were a manufacturer, and they were manufacturing out of China. And manufacturing, a high end women's sandal was a great product, beautiful product, it was patented the whole bit.

 

And they had come to me because they wanted me to help them put together a strategy, you know, a go to market strategy, you know, and things like that. And in the process early on, in the process of going through this strategy with them, come to find out there were four partners in the business, okay. Then they were incorporated. And out of and two of the partners were non performing partner, they weren't doing anything, they were just on the paperwork. And they wanted to go out for funding. And I said, Do you have stocks set aside for your, you know, funding agents for for your angel investors or whatever?

 

And they said, What do you mean? I said, How is your stock divided right now, and they said, is 45% from all four of us? And I said, Well, I said, until you can free up about 30% of that stock, you're not gonna be able to bring in some of these investors, because they're going to want to, you know, have equity in the company, if they're going to give you money. And one thing led to another, and it turned out that the non performers, were not willing to give up any stock, you know, because that's what they tried doing, you know, and stuff like that.

 

But through working with them, what they did was they turned around and close the company down, transferred the IP into another company, was it was just the two performing ones. So there are things that need to be understood when you're first starting out. So you don't make these mistakes. And you don't run into these, these issues. And that's what the Academy is all about is to teach you what you need to know, in order to successfully grow.

 

Roy Barker  32:38

Yeah. Yeah, like kind of goes to a couple points of cleaning up your income statement, you know, prior to, and I don't mean, like the day or the week before, but you need to really be thinking about that prior to looking for funding. And then also, you know, at that exit strategy is, make sure we get that cleaned up so that you can maximize your value, you know, when it comes time to do that. Exactly, exactly. Well, Danna, I appreciate you taking time out of your day to come on and talk to us. It's been very enlightening. And I'm gonna, before we get away, I got a couple questions for you. First off, what is a tool or a habit, something that you use in your everyday life that really adds a lot of value? professionally?

 

Danna  33:25

Well, I have two tools that I use every day in my business one is my Google Calendar. Okay. Okay, time management, my Google calendar is is color coded everything. So I can look at any day on my calendar and see what kind of day I'm going to have. Yeah. Anything on what the colors are.

 

Roy Barker  33:47

I like that. I like that.

 

Danna  33:48

Yeah. And then the other one that I use really often is my CRM, because I'm all about streamlining processes. And so if there's something that I see I'm repeating on a regular basis, I will develop an automation for it. So I don't have to worry about it, you know,

 

Roy Barker  34:08

yeah, I use the most, but I'm glad you brought CRM up, because that's another one of my kind of hot buttons is especially starting out, it's me, it's important to find one and everybody doesn't like the same one. And it took I went through, you know, three or four before I found the one I like and use, find one take the time find one that suits you. So you can keep notes. Because it's difficult as your prospects and your marketing and your touches start growing. It's hard to keep up with all that on paper or in your in our heads.

 

And then when we transfer that, you know, I hate to get an email from somebody that there I can tell they're new in the seat. But somebody had just reached out to me, you know, a month or two before and so it just it's not very professional. So anyway, right? It's so good. And then from some of the sales agents we always hear well, the the time it takes to do it, but believe me, it's minimal. And it helps us so much. Knowing how to reach out when to reach out what kind of messaging we need to reach out with. They're invaluable. So find one and just find one is all I can say. Yeah,

 

Danna  35:22

no, definitely I check it at night before I'm leaving work. So I know what I got to do tomorrow. And then I check it in the morning to see you know, if I have to add something that might have come in overnight.

 

Roy Barker  35:33

Right, right. All right. Well, tell us how can you know who is this most suited for the MarketAtomy? MarketAtomy Academy? Is it mostly did for you know, how it can help them? Course, how can they reach out and either get signed up for read or reach out to you,

 

Danna  35:56

MarketAtomy Academy is going to be most suited for those individuals who are in the napkin stage, they're thinking about going into business, you know, to understand the process of what's going to be involved. It could be for side hustlers, who are looking to take their side hustle into a main hustle. Okay, it can it's for those small micro solo entrepreneurs that are struggling. And they don't understand where the problem is. Right? Generally, it's businesses that are up to about maybe 500,000 in revenue, 10 employees or less, okay, is what we're looking at.

 

Roy Barker  36:36

Right. And talk tell us one more time of the assessment when you think it will be out. Because I think that's an important tool for, you know, for businesses that are already going to, you know, just get a an honest assessment of where you're at.

 

Danna  36:51

Right? All the assessment tool will begin beta testing the second week in August, okay. And I am looking for beta testers. So if any of your listeners want to go through this at no cost to test it out with us, they can reach out to me at and sign up through MarketAtomy M a r k e t A t o m y.com/bhc-beta.

 

Roy Barker  36:56

Okay. Well, I'll include that in the show notes as well.

 

Danna  37:28

Okay. All right. Yes. And so you can sign up through that and you will, we will follow up with you to let you know the details. Otherwise, you can reach me at Danna, D a n n a. O L I V O @ marketatomy.com or go to MarketAtomy.Academy. Okay,

 

Roy Barker  37:50

great. Well, again, Danna, I thank you for your time, a lot of great information y'all go check it out. I know it can help you. help you out a lot, too. Let's get some of these fundamentals down, see maybe what's holding us back so we can move forward and I'll be successful. That's what we want. Yeah, there's enough out there in this abundant world that we can all be successful. It's not a zero sum game. So let's let's get everybody out there and make everybody successful.

 

I love that. All right, y'all. that's gonna do it for another episode of The Business of Business Podcast. Of course, I'm your host Roy. You can find us at www.thebusinessofbusinesspodcast.com we're on all the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify, if we're not a one that you listen to please reach out I'd be glad to add you we're on all the social media platforms as well. Probably hang out a little bit more on Instagram and a video of this interview will go up when it goes live on YouTube as well. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your business.

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