The Business of Digital Podcast

A bad experience with a repair person leads Dave and Mat down a rabbit hole of empathy, protecting employees and much more.

Dave starts the show by talking through a story of the heater in his house going out just days after Christmas. The guy that came out to fix it had recently had a bad day but he couldn't see past his bad Christmas day and not the fact that nearly 10 families were without heat on Christmas and had to call his company for help.

Just the past few weeks hundreds of thousands of families in Texas and across the United States (and in some other countries) have recently run into heat, power and water issues. None of these people wanted to have any of these issues but here they all were at the mercy of so many other people.

For Dave the whole experience was rather uncomfortable as he felt bad for this person but also was currently in a bad situaiton.

It was just days after Christmas and now a new unknown and possibly rather large expense.There are kids, animals and adults in a house with no heat that was quickly getting colder and colder in.It was well below 32F outside and within just 5-8 hours of no heat the house had already dipped well into the 60s.

Empathy?

The whole experience left Dave scratching his head in how this person could not see the bad spot that all of these families were in that had called him. Yes is day had been long and ruined but what about all these families likely facing high bills and emergency rates? The lack of empathy by this employee towards me and towards those that had called him in a time of need just made no sense.

For an example of HOW TO properly work with and talk to your customers check out our episode with Jay Sofer - Do You Deal in Trust? How to Unlock it for Your Business W/ Jay Sofer.

Frontline Workers

What training or support do you have in place for your workers? What do you do proactively to invest and train your employees?

Do you ever read reviews, listen to customer service calls, look for trends in reviews and try and understand if it is the customer, a single person or a company/team wide issue that needs to be addressed.

Firing Clients

The customer is not always right - sorry! As an owner/boss/leader at a company you should also be ready to protect your employees from customers that are abusive. This could be on phone/zoom or in person for those employees that are frontline workers - protect your people!

Accommodate your employees when you can and when they need it. If they raise their hand and say "today is just not a good day" see what you can do to help them help you not get into a bad situation.

Full Transcript

Matt Siltala: [00:00:00] Welcome to another exciting episode of the business of digital podcast, featuring your host, Matt  and Dave roar. Hey guys, welcome to another business of digital podcast episode, and a great to have you with us. And, uh, how's it, Gordon,

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:17] Dave, it is going, going, going.

Matt Siltala: [00:00:20] So for today's episode guys, we're just going to jump right into it.

Um, I like this one. I like talking about the subject and, uh, when I don't like your story, obviously, but I like the meaning behind it and what we're trying to do with this, but we don't know necessarily what we're going to call it yet, uh, for what you guys are reading, but it has to do with empathy and, um, who has it?

Do you have it, Dave? Do I have it? The business owners have it. And so this comes from a, you know, a experience that you had where. You weren't, you were, was not so much given to you, but, uh, [00:01:00] you know, let's just chat about that and we'll go from

Dave Rohrer: [00:01:02] there. I will, I will gloss over some of the details, um, because this happened a couple of months ago, but, um, basically my wife woke up at like 1:00 AM, some noise kind of woke her up.

She didn't know what it was. Um, looked around kind of listened to, she didn't hear anything went back to sleep. It was about what was it? I'm looking at my notes. Cause yeah, it was a couple months ago. Um, it was lik

Dave Davies joins to talk NLP, BERT vs. SMITH, Passages and what it all means for SEO and Digital Marketers.

Recently Dave Davies wrote about Google's BERT vs SMITH and how they work & work together. With so much coming out in recent years around BERT, SMITH and just NLP in general we thought this was a great time to get Dave on to dig into these topics a bit more.

To say he was happy to "geek" out over this topic was an understatement!

Dave Davies covers a ton during the episode and rather than trying to surmise all of his points much of what you see in this write up are from some notes Dave Rohrer took prior and during the episode. To get what Dave Davies actually said, scroll further down to the Transcript as it will be your best bet for sure this time.

Update on SMITH/Passages

Barely 1 hour after we finished recording this podcast Danny Sullivan as Google SearchLiaison posted that Passages had gone live - tweet is here.

What is NLP and Why Does an SEO/Marketer care?

This was one of the questions that Dave Rohrer wanted to dig into during the conversation and we believe we did touch on it. The short answer is going to be to structure you content as you should have all along. The long answer is that you need to listen to the episode or read the full transcript because along the way Dave gives some ways and reasons to optimize and think about NLP, BERT and SMITH.

What is BERT?

Search algorithm patent expert Bill Slawski (@bill_slawski of @GoFishDigital) described BERT like this:

“Bert is a natural language processing pre-training approach that can be used on a large body of text. It handles tasks such as entity recognition, part of speech tagging, and question-answering among other natural language processes. Bert helps Google understand natural language text from the Web.

Google has open sourced this technology, and others have created variations of BERT.”- Bill Slawski

What is SMITH?

SMITH is also known as Siamese Multi-depth Transformer-based Hierarchical (SMITH) Encoder. In a very simplified description, the SMITH model is trained to understand passages within the context of the entire document. SMITH and BERT are "similar" in a very simple way but where SMITH gets involved is in understanding long and complex documents, and long and complex queries. BERT as you will learn from Dave Davies is much better situated to focus on shorter pieces of content.

At its core, SMITH takes a document through the following process (paraphrased mostly from Dave Davie's article):

It breaks the document into grouping sizes it can handle, favoring sentences (i.e., if the document would allocate 4.5 sentences to a block based on length, it would truncate that to four).It then processes each sentence block individually.A transformer then learns the contextual representations of each block and turns them into a document representation.

BERT vs. SMITH

BERT taps out at 256 tokens per document. After that, the computing cost gets too high for it to be functional, and often just isn’t.SMITH, on the other hand, can handle 2,248 tokens. The documents can be 8x larger.SMITH is the bazooka. It will paint the understanding of how things are. It is more costly in resources because it’s doing a bigger job, but is far less costly than BERT at doing that job.BERT will help SMITH do that, and assist in understanding short queries and content chunks.That is, until both are replaced, at which time we’ll move another leap forward and I’m going to bet that the next algorithm will be:Bidirected Object-agnostic Regresson-based transformer Gateways. (So Dave you are saying Google is going to create a BORG algo? Nice!!!)

Passage Ranking

The following passage about passages is from Google Passage Ranking Now Live in U.S.: 16 Key Facts:

Recently Bartosz then asks if tightening up the use of heading elements in order to better communicate what the different sections of a page are about will help or if Google will understand the content regardless of the markup.

“It’s pretty much that. With any kind of content som

Dig into a primer on writing a blog post, article, service page or really any type of content. The guys walk through the process of creating content from start to finish.

We do get some great ideas and eventually we get to them. Long ago Chuck sent a great idea to Mat and sadly it has just taken us awhile to get to it.

Hopefully this episode and write up answer Chuck's question (if a year or two late!).

Start With Outlines

It sounds simple but so many just jump to trying to write everything with no clear direction or goal. When you go on a trip do you likely think about these things:

Goal of the TripTrip BudgetWho is all going on the tripPossible DestinationsMode of Travel (flying, driving, boat, walking)How Long is the Trip?

Seems simple and thought out right? So why not do the same with content?

What is main topic?Who is this for?What is the goal of the content?How long is the content going to be or need to be? Does it even matter?What are the sub topics?What questions should be answered?What assets and material is already created that can be leveraged?What assets and other content can we link too?

Reuse Internal Assets

Mat gives the example of how he approached writing Podcasting Beginners Guide: How and Why You Should Start Podcasting with an outline and past assets.

Reuse presentationsUse internal documentsUse sales or marketing collateralReuse video and audio content if you have any

The goal is to NOT reinvent the wheel every single time if you don't have too.

Use the Internet. Find Questions People Ask.

Do your research to understand what questions people have that relate to your topic. Do your due diligence to really understand what people want to know about the topic you are going to write about.

Answer the PublicSEMRushQuoraYahoo Answers (have fun as this site can get interesting)Search Bing/Google for keywords and see what People Also Ask or related searches appear.Look at your site search data if covering a service/product page.Look at other pieces of content and topics you have covered for sub topics, questions and places to link too.Talk to your sales and customer service teams. What questions do people ask them?

Keyword Research

Now take all of this and dig into keyword research. Here are some past episodes that dig into Keyword Research.

Unique Ways to Do Keyword ResearchCompetitive Research Beyond Just KeywordsKeyword Tools for Trends and Shopping

Content Formatting

When you start writing think about what formatting might be needed. Is this a content heavy piece? Is this mostly visual with just short bits that support or is this something people are going to scan so you need bullet points.

Content's Purpose

We can cover this but really Orbit Media's Website Content Template is super detailed and great. If you have never looked at it do check it out.

Think about social sharing, what users want, what the goal of the content is, who you are targeting, and just really think through WHY you are creating this content.

Full Transcription

Matt Siltala: [00:00:00] Welcome to another exciting episode of the business of digital podcast, featuring your host, Matt scintilla and Dave roar. Hey guys, excited to have you join us on another one of these businesses of digital podcast episodes. And we got Dave over there and how you doing my friend?

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:19] I am going good, sir.

Matt Siltala: [00:00:21] So, um, I'm almost, uh, it's almost embarrassing.

I don't know if embarrassing is the right word or, or funny. Or whatever word you want to use, but, uh, the topic today was something that, uh, you know, it was a idea given to us, uh, given to me specifically by Chuck Reynolds, over a wait for it year and a half ago.

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:43] Probably maybe longer. Maybe not quite

Matt Siltala: [00:00:46] as long.

Yeah. Let's just go with a year

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:49] and a half. Let's just say a year and a half. Cause it's probably like two and a half. I don't know.

Matt Siltala: [00:00:53] Uh, it was interesting because he was tweeting about something and, uh, He had just mentioned to me,

Gregg Finn joins the guys and digs deep into Google Ads, Google Partner Program and the Pros & Cons of Google Ads Recommendations.

We are a podcast and we love podcasts so we are very happy to have one of the co-hosts of Marketing O'Clock - Greg Finn. Recently Marketing O'Clock and this very podcast were listed on SEJ's Top SEO Podcasts - so thanks to them for listing both of us along with some other great shows.

The final straw for Greg and the where the guys started to dig in is with the following image and tweet:

The 74% score bump that set Greg off was for Google Shopping. The discussion turned to the issues with this type of recommendation.

Google Partners Badge & Status

The partners program in 2020 was to require agencies to maintain 70% scores but it has been pushed back to 2021. For Greg the issue is that to keep in the Google Partners Program agencies will need to keep a certain score but so often to do that goes against the best interests of the client.

So what are agencies to do? Help sell for Google or protect the client? The recommendations so often go against what will drive ROI

Pros to Google AI Recommendations

While it was difficult to get some Pros to the recommendations from Greg we did get a couple of suggestions and ways it can help:

Search Partners - maybe there are times where it does make sense as something to do that you missed.If you are running out of budget on a campaign so raising the budget is something that makes sense.Missed site extensions sometimes we miss in campaign/ad group creation. Just in general it can be helpful to catch things we miss but it is so rare.Automated bid according to Greg maybe outdoes manual by 50-60% but to rely on the automation 100% the time just isn't the best for most accounts either.

If nothing else the recommendations can show you things to try and test so even if you don't hit apply, take a look and maybe test out or experiment with some of the recommendations.

Cons to Google AI Recommendations

Raise your budgets. How is that a good suggestion for a client? A company has a set budget and usually approval for an entire quarter or year - an agency or PPC Manager can't just go and spend more in 99.99% of the times it is recommended.

Greg talks through just how bad the UI and recommendations can be where there was an instance that instead of Apply This Change, it was a button to Apply All 116 Recommendations - why would Google do that and why would someone blindly say yes to such a thing??

Many times the AI doesn't understand the business and keywords. In one example a pest control company was told to target "computer mouse" - not sure how that would help a pest control company.

Another note about the optimization scores is from Mark: I love that how a 100% optimization score when taking on a new client is usually a red flag.

Greg's Suggestions for Google Ads

Instead of just turning something on, what if there was a button to create an experiment with a recommendation and test it with X dollars for Y days.

Use automation and AI to leverage experiments and how things react in a way that won't tank an account, relationship, campaign or someone's job.

Full Transcript

Matt Siltala: [00:00:00] Welcome to another exciting episode of the business of digital podcast, featuring your host, Matt scintilla and Dave roar. You guys excited to have everybody join us on another one of these business of digital podcast episodes. And, uh, I believe we have Dave over there. How's it going, Dave? I am here and now today, guys, I just want to introduce a very special guest, a friend of mine, Greg Finn.

How's it going, Greg?

Greg Finn: [00:00:27] Fantastic. Hey Matt. Hey Dave.

Matt Siltala: [00:00:30] You know, we were talking before, just before we started recording, it seems like it's been forever since we've hung out in real life. And it probably has literally been a couple of years, Greg.

Greg Finn: [00:00:40] I know, I really miss that with the in-person conferences. It's it's, Twitter's great.

You can still sort of keep in touch, bu

Dave and Mat end the year by reviewing their favorite episodes and topics that were covered along with some guidance on how to be a guest in 2021.

The other title for this episode was going to be "What a Sh!t Show" but then most of us already know that about 2020. As Dave says at the start, this will be the last show and if you want to know why, just go give a listen to our show Patterns in Social Media Posting, Podcasting, and Content Scheduling as (for us) listening tends to just tank over the holidays.

As a final show to a crazy year the topics and discussion was a bit all over the place including Dave giving some ideas on using PTO/Vacation time in creative ways.

Favorite Show of 2020

Dave's ListDave Cheating but still a great show - Interview with Former FTC Commissioner & Chairwoman Maureen OhlhausenMost Intriguing - Google Antitrust 2020 UpdateThe entire series was great to record but also listen too - Leadership SeriesOf the Leadership Series Dave loved all of them but Leadership & Growth W/ Amanda Orson was his favorite.

Mat's ListMost Fun/Fave - Tool Discovery and Selection Tips W/ Kevin MullettMost Intriguing - Google Antitrust 2020 UpdateJust because we talked about Tom Brady - Team Building, Tom Brady and LeadershipBest Content/Tips - Tips for Excelling as an In-House SEO w/ Kevin Indig

2021 Predictions

We already did this so if you missed it go listen to Virtual Conferences & 2021 Predictions and catch our one big prediction.

Pitching This Podcast

We LOVE having guests but if you ever listen you know that 1 in 4 shows a month has a guest. So when you combine that with the yearly series we do that means we have 16ish guests a year total. That isn't many really so it is hard to get everyone on. That said if you are interested don't just email us 20 times and instead go to our Be a Podcast Guest page, read it, watch/listen and then pitch from there.

That form feeds a list that we keep for when we are in a pinch or need a guest for Topic X.

Our past series we have done for those that missed them.

100th Episode SeriesSEO With Greg BoserDigital Marketing With Matt McGeeLink Building With Debra MastalerPay Per Click With Jim BanksDigital Ad Innovation With Dana Todd

Leadership Series

Show Topic Idea?

Head over to our page where you can submit a question or show idea for 2021.

Lastly we thank all that share our shows with family, friends, coworkers, on social media or just listen and enjoy.May 2021 be great to you and all those you care about! See you next year!

Full Transcript

Matt Siltala: [00:00:00] Welcome to another exciting episode of the business of digital podcast, featuring your host, Matt scintilla and Dave roar. Hey guys, we are excited to have you here on another one of these episodes. How's it going, Dave

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:16] shitty. I mean, if we're going to Mark this one with Kersey and I'm always, we'll take advantage of, you know, the ability to curse once or twice or

Matt Siltala: [00:00:23] five, and that gives everybody a.

What are a kind of an insight as to what the show is going to be about today? It's going to be, what

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:32] did you say? A shit show?

Matt Siltala: [00:00:35] 20. 20? What a, yeah. So there you go.

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:40] That's what it's three times. And what the first 30 seconds. Not including an intro.

Matt Siltala: [00:00:45] So just so you

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:46] guys,

Matt Siltala: [00:00:47] we're going off the cuff here too. Like we have no idea.

What, what direction that this episode is going to just, just to give you that for warning,

Dave Rohrer: [00:00:55] I have a basic, I have a couple of questions

Matt Siltala: [00:00:58] maybe Dave does, but I [00:01:00] don't

Dave Rohrer: [00:01:01] no go wherever. Uh, this is officially the last show of the year, unless some crazy thing comes up. Um, well, you know, too, that we've talked about it in the past about when you create content or podcast or anything, you look and you test things and we've tested and you know, this is what fourth year now.