The Business Revolution Episode 15

In this episode of The Business Revolution, we delve into the exciting frontier of sustainable agriculture and renewable energy with Stephen Todd, founder and CEO of Volt Farmer.

Stephen is driving a quiet revolution in rural Australia, proving that profitable farming and planetary health can go hand in hand.

In this interview, Stephen shares Volt Farmer’s regenerative approach, which combines ancient farming wisdom with cutting-edge technology like AI and bioacoustics to create ecologically balanced systems. He explains how this approach increases farm carrying capacity and drought resilience, while also generating long-term productive assets. 

Our conversation explores:

Join us for a fascinating discussion on how ancient wisdom, modern technology, and community engagement are shaping a more resilient and sustainable agricultural future.

Stephen Todd is the founder and CEO of Volt Farmer, a company at the forefront of bringing cutting-edge renewable energy solutions to the agricultural sector. With over 18 years of experience, Stephen is passionate about sustainable farming practices and technological innovation, empowering farmers to reduce their environmental footprint, cut costs, and build more resilient operations by combining ancient wisdom with modern technology.

Volt Farmer website: www.voltfarmer.com.au

Connect with Stephen Todd on LinkedIn

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Alan Taylor (00:00) 

Well, welcome or welcome back to The Business Revolution, the podcast where we’re rewriting the rules of business for a sustainable future. I’m Alan, your co-host.

Cherry Ward (00:08) 

And I’m Cherry.

Mik Aidt (00:09) 

And I’m Mik. We are your guides, or we would like to be your guides, on this journey to explore the intersection of business, sustainability, and positive change.

Alan Taylor (00:19) 

And to do that, every episode will bring you inspiring conversations with experts, entrepreneurs, and changemakers, proving that sustainability isn’t just good for the planet; it’s actually good for business.

Cherry Ward (00:30) 

So we will uncover innovative solutions, share practical strategies, and discover new trends that will shape the future of sustainable business.

Mik Aidt (00:39)

 Whether you are a seasoned CEO, a budding entrepreneur, or simply curious about how to make a difference in the business world, well, you’ve come to the right place.

Alan Taylor (00:49) 

So I hope you’ve got your cup of tea or your favourite sustainable brew to settle in and be ready to be inspired. This is The Business Revolution.

Mik Aidt (00:57) 

In this episode, we’re going to explore the exciting frontier of sustainable agriculture and renewable energy, and how innovative technology is transforming the way we grow food.

Alan Taylor (01:15) 

And to help us explore this intersection of farming, technology, and environmental stewardship, we’re excited to welcome Stephen Todd. 

Stephen is the founder and CEO of Volt Farmer, a company at the forefront of bringing cutting-edge renewable energy solutions to the agricultural sector. 

With a deep passion for sustainable farming practices and a keen eye for technological innovation, Stephen is empowering farmers to reduce their environmental footprint, cut costs, and build more resilient operations. 

He’s driving a quiet revolution in rural Australia, proving that profitable farming and planetary health can go hand in hand. Welcome, Stephen, to The Business Revolution.

Stephen Todd (02:02) 

Thank you for having me.

Cherry Ward (02:03) 

Stephen, could you share your story behind Volt Farmer? So, what’s your core mission, and how are you bringing renewable energy solutions to the agricultural sector?

Stephen Todd (02:16) We describe our activities as being regenerative. So we essentially go into communities, identify the opportunities, work with the existing experts in the area. 

We find consensus among the technology players, but also the ancient wisdom of the area. We use precision regenerative agricultural techniques to measure and baseline the performance of the landscape and the energy systems. 

And then, using AI-based systems, we create outcomes because they’re called actionable insights from that data. 

So it all sounds very cold and clinical, but it’s actually about using ancient wisdom. And a lot of the ancient farming cultures that we actually deal with use an intuitive basis when they’re managing the landscape. 

When they walk onto a farm, they can feel whether it’s in tune or whether it’s out of tune. And to give you a basic example, you walk onto a farm that the soil feels soft underfoot. It’s likely full of biological activity. 

If you’re very quiet, as a lot of the older farmers will be, you can hear the birds and the insects, so that’s a bio indicator. And you’re basically feeling the vibration. 

Now, with modern technology, we can start to put measurement onto that using bioacoustics, actually listening to what the landscape is telling us, and looking for trends in that landscape. 

So we look at a whole system. We actually basically design the system like an ecologically balanced trope at Cascade. 

So we’re looking at what’s pushing what, what’s the best way to actually live in harmony to produce what you want, and long-term productive assets for the owner.

Alan Taylor (03:47) 

That’s wonderful. Talking about, obviously you’re educating us, we’re not farmers, and there’s so much in there.

I’m wondering, a lot of people like myself, or people who are not aware of farming, think, well, that sounds great, but what is the value of that to modern farming?

Stephen Todd (04:08) There’s a couple of big reasons. One is to increase the carrying capacity of your farm. Carrying capacity is the ability to carry animals or produce crops.

 It also makes the farms more drought resilient or climate event resilient. You’re understanding the trends, but you’re actually being able to react to change better outcomes. 

Traditionally, data collection is about telling you what you already know. If you go back to the older way of doing it, it’s looking where the birds are resting in the trees. 

That will tell you what next year’s weather is going to be, where the insects are putting their nests. There’s lots of stuff that we can take from people who actually understand the landscape. 

Once you understand that, you can apply a thing called the landscape wellness rating system to understand at this point in time, where does that landscape sit. So as an investor, if you want to be called in commercial, you’re ideally looking to buy a farm that’s a one star, use an applied set of systems to then renovate it to seven star. 

And if you want to be a banker or an investor, you then have got a long-term productive asset. The actual farm operator then, when you’re getting these really strange changes in the climate or long-term droughts, because you looked after it well, it’s a much more resilient, ecologically based farming system. And Australia leads the world in a lot of this technology.

Alan Taylor (05:25) 

Wow. So, if I understand that correctly, you’re saying that not only do you get actually higher productivity, but you get quick wins. So it’s not like a long wait for return on investment, and you’ve got resilience built into that. Is that a good summary? Your correct summary?

Stephen Todd (05:41) 

The summary in the middle is not correct, because it’s called the valley of death. So whenever people transition from chemical agronomy, so that’s a lot of artificial synthetic fertilisers, high yields. 

If you want to go either organic or regenerative, there’s probably a three to five year period in the middle where you’re repairing the ecosystem. You also get a lot of grief from your neighbours traditionally because your farm looks untidy. 

It also requires you to be more resilient in your thinking so you’re not just growing soybeans or corn. You’re actually growing things like food forests, you’re creating a completely different system. Some of the solar systems we use actually mimic an agroforestry system, so the solar panels actually hang vertically. 

And that means that we can then grow traditional crops like barley, carrots, potatoes, anything you want in between them. But that requires a level of investment, but it also requires quite a lot of faith in the farmer’s perspective because the banks are still fairly far behind, because they’re basing all their loans on predictive algorithms. 

What sold last year? What’s the commodity market? And that’s been the biggest challenge, particularly in Australia, where a lot of the traditionally based banks, and you only have four of them, don’t like things that appear to be innovative. But in fact, they’re quite the opposite of innovative. They’re old-fashioned. They’re robust.

Cherry Ward (06:57) 

Stephen, I’m interested in terms of, was looking at your website and the renewable energy aspect of it. How does it all work for our listeners? Because I think often when we think about renewables, whether it’s solar or wind, there seems to be, I may be incorrect in assuming, a bit of resistance in those areas around having solar farms on farms and the impact. Is there any impact?

Stephen Todd (07:25) 

Yes, there has been a very bad impact in Australia in particular, simply because the developers who have come from other parts of the world are engineers, and they build monocultured solar farms. They have very little community engagement. 

And lessons can be taken from the German wind industry where again they were doing something similar and the German communities were getting extremely upset with what they thought were visually unpleasant looking wind farms that they were looking at. 

What the Germans did, the German companies, they went to the local community and said, okay, we’ve got your feedback. If you were allowed to invest in these wind farms as a co-investor, would that change? 

And overnight, it transformed the narrative completely because it became the community’s wind farm or solar farm. And then in the UK, there was a company called Lightsource BP. 

And they were my original inspiration for what I’m doing with my projects where we combine elevated solar with actual farming underneath. So we’re not talking about putting some sheep in it and pretending it’s farming.

It’s actually baselining the soil health, having a farm management system, moving the animals around holistically to optimise the amount of soil carbon sequestrated, having proper buffer zones around the periphery, like a 20 or 30 metre native bio corridor. 

They were brilliant at actually saying this can be done. The problem in Australia, a lot of it’s been run by pure financial return, and none of that value goes back to the local community. None. Zilch. Nothing. 

They say it creates jobs. Once a farm’s built and most of the jobs are outsourced anyway, the money just goes into the national energy market and the market traders. So there have been some amazing innovative companies in Australia like Kumu Energy, who’ve been pushing that syndicated investment opportunity for local companies and local people who want to invest in it. 

So if you’re a local mill and you want to have really good ESG commitments, like genuine, you would invest in a solar farm that’s a community-owned solar farm. 

But it also means that it’s demonstrable. You can link the solar farm to your end use and say for every kilowatt hour that we’re using, we can actually see what’s come directly from that solar farm. 

The problem with the larger farms that are happening is that they are being developed by people, I mean, with no disrespect, because they’re engineers, you know, they want to optimise the electricity. 

This is really coming from Germany, New Mexico, and France and Italy. They’re saying that land is so precious, we need to make it coexist. Australia now is starting to really pick up the ante on this. And yes, they’re combining sheep, but they’re also looking at the hydrological function, the insects, the pollinators. 

How can we screen it from the local community? How can we actually include schools education from day one so the kids get to see how do you assess the natural capital? What are your biometrics as you go forward? 

And also then align local communities to have access through corporate PPAs or time PPAs to buy the electricity. And you’re gonna see something similar at the minute with the large utility battery systems that they’re building. You’ve got to involve your local community as an actual stakeholder, not as a “I’ve ticked the box, I’ve spoken to the community,” and they’ll see mapping. 

You’ve actually got to offer people that democracy of do you want to be part of it?

Alan Taylor (10:39) 

It sounds to me as if it’s sort of taking, you mentioned the ideas coming from Germany and a few other countries. It’s also, you mentioned the ancient knowledge, and it seems to be a pattern that I’m hearing here is that ancient knowledge of the Indigenous culture and ancient knowledge in, if you look at any other farming, I’m guessing. But that idea of diversity that you need the different, you need to encourage the bees and the pollinators and all of the other things to be together.

Alan Taylor (11:08) 

And you’re sort of expanding that by putting the solar and wind on the same places as your farms. So you’ve got diversifying a lot more. Is that a reasonable understanding?

Stephen Todd (11:19) 

You’re making a farming enterprise much more resilient because it’s called value stacking. In the 1940s, until the end of the Second World War in the UK, a farmer would have had geese, would have had milking cows, they would have made cheese on the farm, would have grown some of their own fodder. 

They would have a series of different enterprises that allowed them, regardless of what happened, that there was always income from the farm. When you look at nature, nothing works as an isolated activity. Everything is a circle of life. 

The challenge we’ve had after the Second World War has been such an explosion and mass defeat. And obviously after the Second World War, they had an awful lot of phosphates left after the manufacturing of said ancillary devices. So they had to come up with some way of using it. 

And the problem is now you’ve got people addicted to chemical inputs. The beautiful thing about this sort of precision regenerative ag, it doesn’t require people to go on a massive learning journey.

It becomes pretty intuitive once they get a vibe of it. And some of the teaching that’s coming to Australia and America, some people like Will Harris and White Oak Pastures, people like that who are going around the world saying, this is a system, but you’ve got to actually understand what you’re trying to achieve. 

It’s no criticism of the large petrochemical companies because they’re fulfilling a need, again, like large solar farm developers, you want 800 megawatts, we’ll give it to you. 

Now Australia again is really pushing hard with there’s an agri-solar CRC bid being led by Western Sydney University and they’ve brought together about 150 really, really good experts in regenerative agriculture, biocarbon, biochar, landscape management, as well as solar farming and engineering. And they’ve really started that systems-based approach, which is really, really exciting.

Mik Aidt (13:06) 

Stephen, can you give us a picture of the scale of this? How far are you yourself, and how large or how small is your business? And also, what’s your perspective on how do we scale this up so that more people, more farmers, and more countries basically begin to use that thinking that you’re presenting us here?

Stephen Todd (13:26) 

It needs to be legislated and quickly. Australia’s got a unique opportunity here with land tax and primary production rules. So they decided any solar farm or bioenergy plant needs to include and incorporate agriculture in a meaningful way. That would solve the problem overnight. 

Italy has already done something similar. France insists that all new buildings and car parks either have grass or solar panels on them. 

So government needs to lead the way. I mean, the market’s pushed pretty hard in this, but as you can see, perverse outcome is monoculture, 800 hectares, solar farms with all the power, you know, literally going to the energy traders. 

So if government just, it is simple, it’s just a legislation. If you do it that way, you’re going to be commercially taxed, like it’s an industrial building in the middle of Sydney. If you do it this way, it’s primary production.

Mik Aidt (14:18) 

And are you talking with government?

Stephen Todd (14:23) 

That’s me biting my lip. The Solar CRC with Western Sydney University will have that opportunity to put that case to people who can actually make an effect. 

Where we’re actually making a bigger difference at the minute is in Zambia, because they’re in the middle of a terrible drought and their solar farm permits are now taking 48 hours. 

A solar farm in Australia can take you between seven to ten years to get permits and actually on the ground. So it can be done. They’ve realised that because 84% of their electricity comes from hydroelectric, we’ve got no water, we’ve got no electricity, 22 hours a day with no power, we’ve got 60% of their community is under 25. 

Young, excited people on iPhones, Samsungs, using AI, already connected to the interweb of knowledge, going, we want to do something different. So they contacted me last year and said, we’ve seen what you’re doing in Australia, can you come and do something with us? 

So we looked at what they were doing and we quickly realised that the agriculture we can bring, the systems we can bring, the education, the digital twins, the immediate plugging in of a solar and battery system creates that power directly to Lusaka and Livingston. 

And we’ve been very well received and they’ve been incredibly good at co-design, leaning in, seeing how they can help. They have been very open to the carbon farming. They’ve been very open to the food forests, very, very open to collaboration with Australia and Denmark of all places. 

Europe, believe it or not, Denmark, Sweden, UK, Ireland, Scotland are all pushing into Zambia because there’s a lot of really clever people who are keen to actually make a difference with their careers.

Alan Taylor (16:04) 

Yes, a wonderful story about Zambia and where they’re actually getting the buy-in and actually moving forward. And hopefully they’re going to be examples for us over here. You mentioned the long regulations, for example. 

I know here in Gippsland, there’s a small town called Loch, who had a big natural disaster a few years ago. And they’ve got together and they’re actually trying their best to have their own local micro net, micro power system that they can use as their resilience. 

It’s a rural community. So I’m guessing it would have an impact on their farming and their opportunities that they’d get from it as well. I’m wondering if you think that Zambia would be a good example that might be a leverage point to help that, those things, those plant a few more seeds that people can see grow, because there is already local buy-in.

Stephen Todd (16:49) 

What we’re seeing in Zambia is because 60% of their population is under 25. They have grown up with access to the internet. 

The vast majority of people we’re talking to already have iPhone 14s and 15s, tablets. They don’t have the conditioning that a lot of the Western societies have, so they don’t know what they don’t know. And that’s an amazing opportunity, particularly when you’re tied into AI systems that are now giving you actionable insights. 

So it’s like talking to a bunch of unpoliced eight-year-olds in a classroom where, “Why not? All we want to do this has been done before, or we can use this technology, what’s the problem?” 

Because they’re not aware of what Australians are conditioned to think about regulation and about what won’t work because they don’t know what won’t work, which is brilliant. And you’re much more likely to get innovation, particularly when people are under fiscal stress and climate stress and food stress and energy stress. 

They have no option but to work something out. And that is great at nation-building because people together are actually much stronger. I mean, there’s a great expression about Australia is it’s comfortably numb. 

And then unfortunately people take their eye off the ball. And again, that’s not a criticism. I’m an Australian citizen. I love the place. And perhaps the areas that you can reflect on in Australia, when they have a bushfire, people tend to work as communities and help each other out. 

Bit like when you’re training as a cyclist, the only time you get fitter is when you’re going up the hill.

Cherry Ward (18:17) 

Stephen, you mentioned AI there before, and I want to explore this with you a little bit because I think it’s such an interesting space we’re in. How do you see that impacting farming, but also adoption of AI? How does it all intersect?

Stephen Todd (18:22) 

The beautiful thing about AI, if you know how to write the question and ask the key secret, you have to start with the end in sight, and then you have to set up human-based protocols about the actual outcome process. 

The beautiful thing is it’s dipping into the entire knowledge of humanity forever. And when you think about it, to have that in your pocket, if you’d said that even 10 years ago, people would have laughed. 

Now you can actually go, “Give me an example of how you repair this landscape so it creates social benefit, economically viable, produces power for the community, ensures women employment, ensures that people who actually want to be getting an agency in their future can do so.” 

That also promotes collaboration between different countries. AI immediately just removes those barriers because it doesn’t know what those barriers are. So it’s a beautiful moment in time. 

The danger is making sure that, unlike the Wizard of Oz, we actually have that distributed ethic built into it. And that’s going to be the biggest challenge, because again, obviously the propagandists who can populate the interweb for AI-defined or even the controlled AI systems, which then are siloed, you’ve got to find somewhere in the middle. 

But the advantage for the Zambian communities, and certainly the rural communities we deal with in Australia, is that it’s freeing them up from that bias that even the best consultant brings because it’s giving them multiple sources of truth. 

It’s also giving you an automatic bibliography. Where did I get that? What’s the rationale? You can interrogate it. So it’s an amazingly interesting time. 

It’s like where the start of the interweb. Those that saw it got it immediately and thought, “My goodness, this is going to be fun.”

Mik Aidt (20:09) 

However, the next step after AI is robots, isn’t it? You know, when it’s not just a brain, but it actually has a body and it can start working on farms. 

China is already rolling out robots, for instance, to take care of elders in Japan. It’s a big thing as well. We haven’t seen much of it yet in Australia. What’s your take on that next level of AI? When it gets physical?

Stephen Todd (20:35) 

We actually already have it in Australia. Swarm robotics in Queensland already have systems that go out and do exactly what’s needed. They use lasers to identify and burn the weeds. 

We already have drone swarms on farms that automatically go out, read the number of raspberries. That information goes straight back into the financial records of the farms. So the bank and the investors know at any point what’s that crop yield. 

The commodities investors know what it’s going to be next year based on what they can see. So we’re already there. And what’s happening now with the roboticisation, yes, it’s going to remove some jobs, but it’s like the transition between the horse and the car. 

I mean, that was 10, 15 years, and the horses weren’t just horses. It was the saddlers, it was the hoofers, it was the carriage makers. Humans have always had to adapt to change. No different to when there were massive coal mines in the UK or making linen. 

Things changed and aesthetics come along, people adapt. But I think there’s a new generation have grown up with this. I was gonna say, it’s called mother. It’s the fact that you have this guide assistant that will give you the information with the best intention. 

As long as you don’t have the bad people in the background giving you propaganda. But the beautiful thing about some of these young people, they’ve grown up with Reddit. They know how to question things. 

They’ve got social confirmation. And they don’t just go to Google and say, well, if it’s above the line, that’s the truth. They know to ask those questions. 

And I don’t think robotics will take away all of the manual jobs like, you know, cleaning and doing all the horrible stuff. But there’s still going to be work for people, and there’s going to be work. 

I mean, one thing that AI can’t do particularly well is design-based thinking. It’s because it doesn’t have emotional intelligence yet. And that will be interesting to see how that script develops. So people will always have a place.

Cherry Ward (22:25) 

Yeah, great. One last question for me. So many of our listeners are business leaders across various industries. What lessons from the work that you do from agriculture and regenerative farming that can be applied into other industries or sectors?

Stephen Todd (22:42) 

The application of predictive algorithms and looking for trends. So most data collection in businesses is what your accountant tells you, and that’s last year’s effect. And unfortunately, then you’re reacting to what you’re actually, it’s too late. 

What we’re seeing now with regenerative practice is you’re looking for what are called surrogate indicators. So you get to see what’s going to happen before it’s happened. There’s certain things that already started to shift in the wind, and most businesses can take that policy and see what’s happening. 

As an engineering business, you can have machine learning in your VSDs; those are electronic motors in your system. And if they start to underperform, the system automatically detects it as an underperforming asset. So you can then have predictive maintenance. 

And again, they’ve managed to, sounds a bit creepy, watch people’s behaviour at work. So they know when people are getting fed up, and you don’t want fed up workers; you want people motivated. They’re like, they’re… as an app now, you can actually watch people on the peninsula. 

We can see all the tradespeople leaving in the morning, and all the tradespeople from Melbourne CBD coming down to the peninsula. So the analytics are already there, and you can see the patterns, and you can start to build a better regenerative future saying, “Well, why are so many people travelling an hour down and an hour up to do the work that the people who are already there from even a lifestyle point of view?

Why do you want to sit in a car for two hours?” Businesses have got that great opportunity now. It sounds like rationalising your business, but you’re actually making it more liveable. And if you keep people happy and a good quality of life, it becomes a productive asset.

Cherry Ward (24:18) 

That was beautiful. And it’s some of the work that Alan and I’ve been trying to do is, you know, how do we take a regenerative approach into the world of business? Stephen, where can our listeners learn more about you, your work in Volt Farmer?

Stephen Todd (24:33) 

Mainly I do on the website, it’s voltfarmer.com.au, but we do a lot of LinkedIn. LinkedIn is the most amazing device. 

We have had so many conversations from people that are totally unrelated to what we’re doing. They’ve said, “You know, we work in the medical sector, we’ve got predictive algorithms to spot health issues. 

We want to talk to you about using predictive algorithms and landscaping to identify AI farmers can predict the water’s drying up, or the algae levels or the biological oxygen demand of the water’s changed, which means it must be pollution.” 

And it’s a great way of meeting engineers, environmentalists, ethical people, people who want to talk about weird and wonderful stuff because they get inspiration. And when you have two people in a conversation, a third voice turns up. 

It’s one you weren’t expecting. And LinkedIn is great because you tend not to get negative comments. It’s generally people going, “That’s fascinating, tell me more.” Or, “We’re working with oil transport ships. 

And how we’ve reduced our carbon footprint is making sure that we wait until the tide’s at the highest level, then we overfill the boat and we’ve saved 20%.” So you get to share these amazing insights from other industries that you would never have come across.

Cherry Ward (25:43) 

That’s brilliant. We’ll make sure we’ll add your LinkedIn page so people can follow that and connect with you as well, Stephen. Thank you. 

And that’s a wrap for this episode of The Business Revolution. We hope you have enjoyed diving deep into the world of business and sustainability with us.

Alan Taylor (26:02) 

As you can see, the world of business and sustainability is not just business as usual. It’s a broader thing across farming and the community. 

So remember, the revolution doesn’t end there. It’s up to each and every one of us to take the knowledge and inspiration from today’s episode and turn it into action.

Mik Aidt (26:19) 

And whether that action is implementing sustainable practices in your own business or advocating for change in your community, every step, every single step, counts towards building a better future for us all.

Cherry Ward (26:32) 

And don’t forget to visit our website at businessrevolution.earth for more resources, past episodes, and ways to get involved.

Alan Taylor (26:40) 

And if you enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe, rate, and review The Business Revolution on your favourite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and amplify our impact.

Mik Aidt (26:53) 

Thank you for joining us on this journey of transformation. Together, we hope we can revolutionise the way we do business and create a world that is truly sustainable for the generations to come.

Alan Taylor (27:06) 

So stay tuned for insights, inspiration, and actionable steps to help reshape the way we all do business for a better tomorrow.

Cherry Ward (27:14) 

So until next time, keep innovating, keep inspiring, and keep pushing for positive change for a brighter tomorrow. This is Cherry.

Mik Aidt (27:23) 

I’m Mik.

Alan Taylor (27:24) 

And Alan signing off. The business revolution starts with you.

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The Business Revolution Episode 14

In this captivating episode of The Business Revolution, we complete our ESG series by diving into the often-misunderstood but absolutely critical “G” for Governance.

We’re joined by Perrin Carey, the visionary founder and CEO of CoSteer, who radically redefines governance beyond rigid checklists and compliance.

Perrin unveils a powerful vision of governance as “beautiful synchronicity,” akin to a murmuration of starlings, an interconnected, non-hierarchical system centered on shared purpose and values. Perrin explains how the true essence of governance lies in the quality of the millions of daily decisions made across an organisation, not just in the boardroom.

This episode will challenge your perceptions and offer profound insights into:

Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that will inspire you to see governance as a dynamic opportunity, a competitive edge and a path to building institutions worth inheriting.

Perrin Carey is the visionary founder and CEO of CoSteer, a technology business dedicated to integrating governance effectively into organisations. Perrin;s work stems from extensive research into how to move beyond traditional, process-driven governance towards a more holistic and human-centered approach, focusing on enhancing the quality of decision-making within organisations.

CoSteer website:  www.costeer.co

CoSteer’s research at the Good Governance Academy: goodgovernance.academy/research

CoSteer’s research report: www.costeer.co/2025report

ISO 37000 – The Governance of Organisations

Audio version:

Episode 14 links

 𝐓𝐁𝐑 notes and transcript: www.businessrevolution.earth/businessrevolution14

𝐓𝐁𝐑 episode 14 for download: audio mp3

 𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: open.spotify.com/episode

 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭: podcasts.apple.com

 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞: video

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Alan Taylor (00:00)
Well, welcome – or welcome back – to The Business Revolution, the podcast where we’re rewriting the rules of business for a sustainable future. I’m Alan, your co-host.

Cherry Ward (00:08)
And I’m Cherry.

Mik Aidt (00:09)
And I’m Mik. We are your guides, or we would like to be your guides on this journey to explore the intersection of business, sustainability and positive change.

Alan Taylor (00:19)
And to do that every episode will bring you inspiring conversation with experts, entrepreneurs, change makers, or proving that sustainability isn’t just good for the planet, it’s actually good for business.

Cherry Ward (00:30)
So we will uncover innovative solutions, share practical strategies and discover new trends that will shape the future of sustainable business.

Mik Aidt (00:39)
Whether you are a seasoned CEO or a budding entrepreneur or simply curious about how to make a difference in the business world, well, you’ve come to the right place.

Alan Taylor (00:49)
So I hope you’ve got your cup of tea or your sustainable favorite brew to settle in and be ready to be inspired. This is The Business Revolution.

Mik Aidt (00:57)
In this episode, we’re going to explore the often overlooked but very important, the crucial ‘G’ in ESG, governance.

Alan Taylor (01:07)
And to help us explore the intricacies of good governance and its impact on sustainable business practices. We are super thrilled to welcome Perrin Carey, the visionary founder and CEO of CoSteer.

Cherry Ward (01:18)
Welcome Perrin. Perrin brings a wealth of experience in helping organisations navigate the complexities of modern governance. Co-Steer is at the forefront of providing innovative solutions that empower businesses to build robust and transparent governance frameworks. So Perrin, can you tell us a bit about CoSteer and specifically how you and CoSteer address the G in ESG?

Perrin Carey (01:43)
Goodness, that’s a whole podcast just in one question there, Cherry. But very quickly, because I really want to dive into our perspectives on governance. But firstly, it was born out of a research project that I did for a master’s degree back in 2018. But it has been a long standing challenge of mine as to how do we integrate governance properly into organisations.
That research led to a deep exploration through the years of COVID and then the development of a piece of technology which supports organisations. So CoSteer is an unusual business. It’s a tech business, but in the space of governance. Your second bit of that question, we’re going to have to dive in separately. So you see, let’s look at the way that we see governance currently, most of us.
We see governance most commonly as a process driven framework, often surrounded by aspects of compliance, maybe risk management. And in the ESG space, it sits as this tag on at the end of this acronym. But imagine if you would something different. Picture that beautiful spectacle in the sky that you see at dusk. Starlings in murmuration. You can see it across woodlands and across seaside towns in the UK, the US, around the world. That for me is governance. Governance is beautiful synchronicity. It’s interconnectedness.
It’s a group of human beings centralised around a common purpose with really clear shared values. No hierarchical leadership, decentralised decision making. And if you can imagine that transition of moving an organisation, a group of organisations, a whole concept towards that type of ideology, then you move into a different space. You move into a world where governance is in fact beautiful. And that isn’t something you hear often in boardrooms.

Cherry Ward (03:55)
No, absolutely not. I love that that starling that murmuration Perrin. I think, you know, I’ve worked in that space and often governance is about hierarchy. It’s about delegations of authority, who can make those decisions and structures and processes. So how are you working with organisations to to make that shift to think differently about governance. I think it’s almost like as you said earlier, the G has to come before the E and the S.

Perrin Carey (04:24)
Yeah, how do we do it? I’ll come on to a minute. I think my, my ideal is that these three things are completely interconnected, they’re interwoven. And we’ve, we’ve given it an acronym, because that helps us as human beings, what we tend to then do, because we are human beings, and therefore we, we’re almost obsessed with linearity.

Cherry Ward (04:27)
Yes.

Perrin Carey (04:47)
So we go, ooh, there’s an E, ooh, there’s an S, ooh, there’s a G. But really these three elements are utterly interconnected and interwoven. So how do we address this with boards and leadership and organisations? I think we tackle it first and foremost by just clarifying that governance is not corporate governance.
Governance is really about the quality of the decisions that are cascading and rippling across your organisation every single day. So there was a Harvard Business Review that was done a while ago looking at the number of decisions that we make as human beings today. 33,000. 33,000 decisions.
Now even if you just go into the workplace and you extract eight hours of a day, suddenly you’re at 10,000.
Multiply that up across people in your organisation. You are talking about millions and millions of decisions that are made every single day in your organisation. For me, governance is everything that informs, that wraps, that begins to inspire the quality of those decisions across your organisation.
And so once you begin to have a conversation in that vein, then governance becomes a living thing. It’s not something that sits on a policy or a piece of paper or an intranet. It becomes a living human system. And that’s how we approach governance with organisations as a living human system.

Alan Taylor (06:25)
Wow, that sounds beautiful. I’ve worked in environments where you’ve got a reasonable level of alignment and that alone is a massive improvement, but this is taking it two or three levels further. What are some of the big challenges that you’re seeing in leadership, I guess, to overcoming that and to actually become that one?

Perrin Carey (06:46)
Wow, there are lots of challenges. A lot of it is around education, an acknowledgement of the fact that governance is in fact, this deeper, broader living thing. I think once leaders have gone on that journey of acknowledgement, there’s a kind of wave that comes with them. And we see this across organisations and leadership.
What we’ve found is that when leaders have the opportunity to measure and observe the governance in their organisations, then it comes alive. And so the challenge that we addressed really at CoSteer was, can we begin to bring alive in visual form governance, rather than it being this report that’s done you know, every year and we go through and we comply or we explain or we do both of those. We list all the policies and procedures that we do.
We pat ourselves on the back because we’ve written great minutes. And I’m not saying that any of these things are unimportant. But we need to think of the purpose of all of these things. Because purpose is the core of everything, right? The purpose of good minutes, the purpose of a policy, the purpose of having procedures, controls and frameworks and systems is to improve decision making.
And if you can bring that living system of decision making alive in a visual form, then you bring leadership, you bring boards right with you. And that’s what we’ve built and created. And I know this is not about us sort of talking in detail about that. But I think if you can visualise that in some way, then you bring boards and leadership on that journey.

Alan Taylor (08:23)
It sounds, it sounds like you, and I feel like I’m paraphrasing some of the things you said, but it sounds like you’re taking what is an abstract concept and making it tangible, making it realistic because people can see something and then you can hold the mirror back to them so that they can sort of relate to it and know that it is them. Is that, does that sound about right?

Perrin Carey (08:42)
I would say that’s a brilliant summary of what we do. We endeavor to… So let’s go back to that murmuration that we were talking about earlier. So what we have been able to do is visually show where all of the people are in your organisation in relation to each other around 27 core themes of what we will call governance, but you could call organisational efficacy, right? So what we’ve been able to do is create a visual image of that for organisations.
So imagine being able to look at a screen or look at a piece of paper and say, this is where our people are in relation to each other on the performance of our organisation right now. We know the direction we want to go in.
And in a few months time, we’re going to retake that picture and we’re going to observe how people have moved over time in relation to each of these aspects that we measure, but also in relation to each other, because this isn’t just about, the organisation performing? It is also very much about where people are in relation to others. And it’ll probably, it’ll come up later in some of our conversation about how we do that.
But yes, you’re right, Alan. It’s really about trying to visualise what has become a compliance paper-driven tick box exercise into a living exercise. Yeah.

Mik Aidt (10:09)
How does AI come into that room? Is it an enemy or is it a friend?

Perrin Carey (10:14)
I would say it could be an enemy or a friend. It depends on the human touch of that. And I think this is true for all of, let’s say, generative AI. I use that term more deliberately. We’ve utilised AI for the last six years. Our AI is very much from the 1960s. It’s about high powered mathematical computation, looking at interconnections and interrelationships and trying to understand the living system.
Generative AI is completely different. It uses large language models to obviously support human work if the human touch is positive. So where does it come in? I think it comes in across the piece. If we go back again, and I’ll keep coming back to this, governance is about quality of the decisions that we’re making as human beings.
If there is anything that can support quality of decisions that we make, both individually, let’s say 10,000 decisions we make, if we can improve the quality of those decisions every day, and if we can improve the quality of the decision making collectively. Now, often when we think about the ESG space, we are talking about decisions at leadership or board levels in terms of the direction of travel of an organisation towards environmentally sustainable and reciprocal engagement with nature. Then the quality of their decisions collectively is so critical.
We think that we’re good at making collective decisions. I would argue that we’re not that good at making collective decisions. There are numbers of reasons for that. One of them is principally being human and some of the innate challenges that we face as being human. Happy to come onto that. But I would say AI plays a critical role and can play an important an immense role in improving the quality of the decisions we make and then how well we implement those decisions. So yes, multiple factors, multiple ways, traditional AI, machine learning, we utilise all of this. So yes, it can absolutely have an impact.

Alan Taylor (12:17)
You remind me of another theme in here, because when people talk about AI and from Mik’s question, it’s almost like a risk perspective. But I’m going to move away from AI and just stay with the word risk.
Staying with, going with the murmuration, you’ve got the leaders at the front of the flock and you’ve got whatever, I don’t know the dynamics of the birds in this, you’ve got the followers who are definitely going to be changing along the way and everybody is adapting as the whole flock moves around. In a corporate setting, that’s… that could be perceived from a leader perspective, that that’s a risk that the flock isn’t going to follow, that the risk is going to go their own direction, or that others won’t even notice that they’re coming and so there’s going to be a mid-air collision. How is risk sort of managed in this space?

Perrin Carey (13:02)
Okay, wow, what a brilliant question. I’m gonna try and tie these things all together, right?
What you were saying, Alan, about Starlings and Mammaration, and I’m going to just correct you on one thing. There is no leadership. Leadership is completely decentralised in Starlings when they perform Mammaration. How, therefore, do they manage to do what they do with almost no collisions?
So if you look at some of these spectacles, they’re 40, 50, 100,000 birds up in the sky and there won’t be a single collision. So the way that they do this is, and this has been evidenced by research conducted by Giorgio Parisi in the late 1990s, early 2000s. And he videoed Starling’s ememoration across the city of Italy.
So Roman in Italy. And he observed that each starling takes reference from its seven immediate neighbors.
Now just translate that to organisations and people. What we know from psychology and what we know from behavioral science is that our behaviors are most significantly influenced by seven people.
So when we think about the behaviors across an organisation, we actually don’t take our steer necessarily from the executive leadership that stands three levels above us. We in fact take our steer of how we behave, how we perform, the nature of decisions that we make, the way we communicate with other people across our organisation. We take that steer from the seven most influential people around us.
Now in a flock of starlings, that’s the most immediate neighbor. But us as humans, we’re more sophisticated in the way that we observe patterns around us. So it doesn’t need to be our most proximal person to us sitting in the office. But it doesn’t really reach beyond seven.

Because it’s too much for us to take in, it’s too much noise, right, going on. So we essentially tune in to the seven most influential people around us. So coming back to your question, I’m trying to relate this back to your question about risk. The real risk to organisations is in fact rigidity and the inability to adapt and move.
The most common reason for organisational, let’s say, an organisation ceasing to exist in some form, is actually the inability to adapt. And I’m make one other biological reference here. We’ve been taught that it’s the survival of the fittest. But that’s actually a misquote, right? It’s not the survival of the fittest, it’s the survival of those most able to adapt.
And we know this now from all of our studies across ecology. And so it’s the same in organisations. So the biggest risk in organisations, inability to adapt, and the inability to adapt comes from rigidity. Rigidity comes in most organisations due to highly structured hierarchy, highly process driven policy orientated organisations with incredibly rigid decision making frameworks.
And what we’re seeing in many organisations now is a gradual move towards decentralising some of that decision making. How do you do that and at the same time mitigate risk and open up opportunity? Well, how we do that with organisations is we move organisations towards a really clear purpose and values orientated decision framework.
So rather than decisions being dictated to by systems and controls, exclusively, we move towards a collaborative approach where decisions can be made both through a system and control. So there are still systems and controls and they are important and they do mitigate risk. But we also encourage leadership to really embed the core values of their organisation into their decision making.
And surround those decisions with the purpose of their organisation. So take an example in a boardroom or even in a meeting, you come across something that you haven’t had to experience before. You’ve got to make a decision. There is no system. There is no process. There is no policy that surrounds this decision. It’s like out of the box. And what we encourage teams to do is to
Observe the purpose, embed that into the decision, look at the values, address those values as you walk through your collective decision making process. And then what we find is when you come out the other side, you’ve actually made an incredibly powerful decision that’s onboarding the concepts of risk, but most importantly, creates an agile organisation that can take opportunity.
So hopefully that kind of understand and trying to bring the biomimicry into human organisations because it’s tangible, it exists, it’s real. We’ve seen it, it’s operating across our clients right now and it’s beautiful to see.

Mik Aidt (18:04)
I’m so excited. You have really changed the G in ESG for me and made it into something I want to know a lot more about. Unfortunately, our podcasts are usually not that long, so we’ll have to refer our listeners and YouTube viewers to your website. Or what would you be your advice to where do we go from here? I’m excited now. I want to know more. Where do I go?

Perrin Carey (18:28)
Where do you go? Okay. If you want to see more about our work, yes, there’s our website. But actually, and maybe we can put this link in whatever comes out. We’ve been running a research program for the last five years with the Good Governance Academy in South Africa, but there are global governance, not for profit, trying to shift governance towards this more human living system perspective.
And you can find a lot of our videos and research presented back. And here is where I talk a lot more about these ideas in a lot more detail. Other than that, for those that are more kind of interested in hardcore kind of governance, I would point you in the direction of the newly recently published in 2021-22, Organisational Governance from the ISO.
It’s ISO 37,000. It talks about organisational governance from this perspective that it is a system, it’s an interconnected system. And as a model, puts organisational purpose at the heart of governance. And therefore it’s truly leading the way in governance. So those are the two places I would probably point people.
Thank you. Yeah, we are working with a couple of governance and government organisations in the Channel Islands. So yeah, it’s certainly something of interest that’s developed.

Cherry Ward (19:50)
One last question, Perrin. If you had advice for CEOs and business leaders around governance, what would that be if we were able to broadcast this live to every single business leader out there?

Perrin Carey (20:02)
I would say of the five years of research that we’ve been doing, we’ve collected 50,000 data points. We’ve carried out over two million, I guess, interrelationships, analysis of interrelationships between different factors of organisational governance. There is one thing that emerges time and time again as being the most influential factor on the quality of both individual and collective decision making.
And its compassion. It’s compassion for ourselves and it’s compassion for others. And I think if there was one message that I had for leaders across the world.
Be kind to yourself and be kind to others because that is the biggest driver of high quality individual and collective decision making. It is leaps and bounds ahead of everything else that we’re observing in organisational systems. That would be my advice.

Alan Taylor (21:02)
That is a wonderful way to end the session today, this episode of The Business Revolution. It’s so thought-provoking and wonderful, and I certainly hope that we’ll get many people to hear that because that’s fantastic. Thank you. We hope that everybody has enjoyed diving deep into the world of business and sustainability with us in this very different episode, thinking in very different ways. So thank you very much, Perrin.

Perrin Carey (21:25)
Thank you very much for me.

Cherry Ward (21:26)
Thanks, Perrin. And to our listeners, remember the revolution doesn’t end here. So it’s up to each and every one of us to take this knowledge and inspiration from today’s episode and turn it into action.

Mik Aidt (21:39)
Whether that’s implementing sustainable practices in your own business or advocating for change in your community, every step counts towards building that better future.

Alan Taylor (21:50)
And don’t forget to visit our website at businessrevolution.earth for more resources, past episodes and ways to actually get involved with us.

Cherry Ward (21:57)
And also if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to hit subscribe, rate and review the business revolution on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback really helps us to reach more listeners and amplify our impact.

Alan Taylor (22:11)
So thanks for joining us on this journey of transformation. Together we can revolutionise the way we all do business and create a world that’s sustainable for generations to come.

Mik Aidt (22:20)
Stay tuned for insights, inspiration and actionable steps to help reshape the way we do business for a better tomorrow.

Cherry Ward (22:28)
So until next time, keep innovating, keep inspiring and keep pushing for positive change. This is Cherry.

Mik Aidt (22:34)
This is Mik

Alan Taylor (22:35)
Alan signing off. The business revolution starts with you.

Cherry Ward (22:41)
One last message before we wrap up this episode as part of the demystifying ESG series we have a message from two CEOs on governance.

CEO 1 (at 22:54)
Thank you for taking the time to listen. I know you’re busy, you’re steering organisations through turbulent times, making decisions that carry weight far beyond your boardroom. We’ve spoken about the E, we’ve spoken about the S, but today let’s talk about the G in ESG, governance, and why it’s far more than a checklist or a compliance box.

Let me be clear, governance is not just about minutes and manuals. It’s not about control for control’s sake. It’s about decision making. And decision making is everything. Every risk you navigate, every opportunity you seize, every value you claim to uphold, it all comes down to the quality of the decisions made across your organisation.

CEO 2 (at 23:40)
Most people see governance as a process, a structure, a hierarchy. But that mindset is part of the problem. Because rigid governance systems often collapse under pressure. They don’t adapt. They don’t breathe. The future belongs to organisations that can flex, move and respond. Not with chaos, but with coherence. And that’s why I want you to imagine governance differently. Not as rules from the top, but as alignment across the system.

Think of a murmuration of starlings, thousands of birds, no single leader, moving in perfect synchrony. Each bird responds to its seven closest neighbours, creating a living breathing system that is agile, adaptive and beautiful. That is what governance could be. That is what governance must become. Because the greatest risk to your business is not disruption, not competition, it’s rigidity. It’s the inability to change.

And let’s be honest, most companies are still trapped in outdated governance models built for a different century. Models that silo responsibility, that kill innovation, that treat compliance as the end goal instead of a baseline.

We need to shift from hierarchy to purpose, from control to compassion, from tick boxes to trust. Governance done right builds culture. It creates psychological safety. It empowers your people to make better decisions at every level.

And yes, governance is where your values become real, not in your brochures, but in the lived experience of your employees, your partners, your stakeholders. And here’s what we’ve learned from the data. The single biggest driver of high quality decisions, the kind that build resilient, ethical, thriving companies, is compassion. Not process, not policy.

Compassion for others for yourself because humans don’t take cues from distant leaders or codes of conduct We take them from each other from the people we trust the people closest to us. Just like those birds in flight

So here is my challenge to you. Stop thinking of governance as a burden. Start seeing it as the opportunity it truly is. To rewire your organisation around purpose, around people, and around principles that scale. Make it visible. Make it living. Make it your competitive edge. Because when governance is alive, your company becomes alive.
And when governance is beautiful, your business becomes part of something much bigger than itself.

So decide, will your legacy be brittle and outdated or adaptive and aligned with the future? Because the world is watching, employees are watching, investors are watching and the next generation is asking, are you building institutions worth inheriting?

Implementing ESG, truly embedding it into the DNA of your company, can feel daunting. It takes time. It takes courage. It means rewiring old systems and letting go of comfortable habits. But here’s the truth. The return is real. Strong governance doesn’t just build trust. It builds better strategy, smarter decisions and long-term resilience. It protects your company’s future while contributing to the planet’s future.

So yes, it takes effort, but it’s worth it. For your people, for your business, for our shared home. And without any doubt, this is why you and we will be on the right side of history.

Ban Ki-moon, former UN Chief:
It may sound strange to be speaking of revolution but that is what we need at this time. We need a revolution. Revolutionary action.

SONG
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It’s both cheaper and cleaner – and healthy too
Now the business revolution starts with you

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The Business Revolution Episode 13

In this episode of The Business Revolution, Mik, Alan, and Cherry dive deep into the often-misunderstood “S”-pillar of ESG – the “Social” pillar. 

Moving beyond typical perceptions of diversity and inclusion, they broaden the lens to explore the fundamental responsibility businesses have to the very fabric of society. 

Cherry, with her extensive background in organisational development and D&I, leads the discussion, emphasising that the “S” is not “soft,” but rather the foundation of trust, resilience and a company’s license to operate. It is the heart of your company!

Key discussion points include:

The episode challenges leaders to ask, “Are we just? Are we human? Are we proud of how we treat people?” It underscores that there is no sustainable future without focusing on the people within and beyond the business.

Audio version:

Mik Aidt
Mik has been a highly influential player with respect to our environment, with very active communications experience for over 10 years. Examples include playing a very significant part in the global ‘Climate Emergency Declaration’ movement, and long-lived podcasts.

Cherry Ward
Cherry is a seasoned leadership development expert, coach (ICF ACC), and advisor with over two decades of experience in the corporate world. She is also the founder of Bluebird Leadership, a boutique consulting firm pioneering innovative solutions that cultivate thriving leaders, teams, cultures, and a sustainable planet.

Alan Taylor
Alan has moved from corporate IT consulting into this domain because he adamantly believes that humans need to adapt, businesses can benefit from this new revolution and therefore he is determined to help it happen. Alan is an accredited coach (ICF ACC), supporting leaders and teams in personal and leadership development and transformation.

Episode 13 links

 𝐓𝐁𝐑 notes and transcript: www.businessrevolution.earth/businessrevolution13

𝐓𝐁𝐑 episode 13 for download: audio mp3

 𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: open.spotify.com/episode

 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭: podcasts.apple.com

 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞: video

Social media posts: Linkedin – Facebook – Instagram

Mik Aidt (00:00)

Welcome, or welcome back, to The Business Revolution, the podcast where we are trying to rewrite the rules of business for a sustainable future. I’m Mik, your co-host.

Alan Taylor (00:11)

And I’m Alan.

Cherry Ward (00:12)

And I’m Cherry. We’re your guides on this journey to explore the intersection of business, sustainability and positive change.

Mik Aidt (00:20)

In each episode, we bring you inspiring conversations with experts and change makers who are proving that sustainability is not just good for the planet, it’s good for business.

Alan Taylor (00:31)

And we uncover innovative solutions, we share practical strategies, and we discover the new trends that will help the future of sustainable businesses in all of their contexts.

Cherry Ward (00:41)

So whether you’re a seasoned CEO, a budding entrepreneur, or simply curious about how to make a difference, you’ve come to the right place.

Mik Aidt (00:50)

So grab a cup of your favorite sustainable brew, settle in and get ready to be inspired. This is The Business Revolution.

JINGLE with song

Alan Taylor (00:58)

In this episode, we’re diving deep into the often misunderstood, yet absolutely critical pillar of the ESG, the S for social.

Mik Aidt (01:06)

And this is, you know, we often talk about it as something with diversity or being nice, you know, inclusion among the employees and so on. And that’s of course, that is a part of it. But today we are hoping to broaden out our lens to explore the fundamental responsibility that business actually have to the very fabric of society that they operate in.

Cherry Ward (01:27)

So we will be unpacking what it truly means for businesses to be good social citizens from how they treat their employees, know, engage with their communities to the ethical considerations within their supply chains and beyond. So this is going to be a really great episode to look at more broadly at the S.

Mik Aidt (01:46)

And we should mention that today we haven’t invited an expert in because we have one among us. Cherry, we consider you the expert of the S in ESG. So we’ll be hearing from you and about your experiences and actually interviewing you a little bit. But I think before we start, let’s again, like last time when we talked about the E, let’s first of all hear what would it sound like if a CEO was to stand up and say, listen, folks, employees, I’m calling you. This is what we are going to talk about when we talk about the S in ESG. Here’s a take on that:

CEO (02:21)

Thank you for taking the time to listen. I know you’re busy. Leading teams, driving strategy, managing complexity. We’ve talked about the S in ESG before. You might have written some soft kind words about it in your company’s latest CSR or ESG report. But let me be clear. The S in ESG is not soft. It’s not an afterthought. It is the foundation of trust, of resilience, of your license to operate. Because here’s the truth. Businesses do not exist in a vacuum.

Every company is embedded in a social fabric made up of workers, customers, suppliers and communities. And that fabric is fraying. We live in an era of polarisation, inequality, dislocation and mistrust. Around the world, people are questioning whether the system still works for them. Whether business still serves just shareholders and disregards everything else. If we as leaders don’t address that head on, then we are not just risking reputational damage for our company.

We are actually at risk of social collapse at a global scale. I am not here to suggest you can fix everything, but I am here to tell you that every business decision you make, how you treat your workers, how you pay your people, how you engage with your suppliers and community, it all matters. Social responsibility is not charity, it’s a strategy. Treat your employees fairly and you build loyalty, innovation and lasting retention. Invest in your communities and you create stable markets and sustainable growth. 

Prioritise diversity and inclusion and you unlock talent and resilience your competitors are missing. And let’s not pretend this is just an issue in the Western world. The global supply chains we depend on, from minerals to manufacturing to food, are often built on human suffering. Forced labor, child labor, unsafe conditions, these are not distant problems. They are embedded in the products we profit from. And silence is complicity. 

So the question becomes what kind of leaders do we want to be? The ones who look away? Or the ones who take responsibility? Who is accountable for the decisions and choices we’ve made? We cannot outsource ethics. We cannot defer values to a compliance department. Social impact is a boardroom issue, a leadership issue, your issue. And here’s the opportunity. Business can be the most powerful force for good in the world.

We can raise standards, empower workers and lift communities. Not someday, not hypothetically, but today through the decisions we make. So this is my challenge to you. Look beyond quarterly results. Ask what kind of society your business is helping to create. Will your legacy be extraction or contribution, exploitation or dignity? Because the world is watching, employees are watching, customers are watching, and the next generation of talent is making values-based choices.

So ask yourself not just are we successful, but are we just, are we human? Are we proud of how we treat people? The S in ESG is about people and there is no sustainable future without them. on the right side of history.

Ban Ki-moon, former United Nations General-Secretary
It may sound strange to speak of revolution, but that is what we need at this time. We need a revolution. Revolutionary thinking, revolutionary action!

Song
It’s both cheaper and cleaner and healthy too. Now the business revolution starts with you.

Mik Aidt (06:14)

And as we mentioned in our last episode where we talked about the E in ESG, we’ve created these courses. We’re still working on making more courses about ESG, E-learning courses that can be used for you if you’re running a business and you have employees, then these courses are meant to educate and inspire employees about what is this thing, ESG, and how do we go about it and why have we even entered this space? 

And I think, you know, just to set the right tone, let’s hear a little snippet from the first course, the introduction to ESG, just so we get it right. What is the E and the S and the G very briefly explained.

ESG e-learning course speakers (06:52)

“What is ESG all about? ESG is about how we take responsibility for our planet, our well-being in the workplace, and how management focuses on ensuring we have a good and sustainable everyday life.
E stands for our organisation’s impact on climate and the environment. S is for our organisation’s contribution to well-being and a fairer society. G for governance and ethics, decision-making and reporting. Click on the yellow button to start the quiz.”

Cherry Ward (07:27)

So we’ve just seen the little video explaining what the E and the S and the G is. And I think, from my perspective, the S is not soft. Often people think the S is the soft, fluffy stuff. But for me, it’s a foundation of trust and for a business, it’s their license to operate. So let’s elaborate on why we see the social aspect as foundational for business success and their longevity as well.

Alan Taylor (07:54)

I think that’s a really cool point and I love that. I’m going to latch back on something else you said earlier there, Cherry. It’s about it being an ethical consideration. It’s because that’s where when we say it’s not just being soft, sometimes to actually fix the ethical issues, we need to be pretty hard. We need to work hard and change often patterns or behaviors at every stage in the whole supply chain. And because ethics is it’s very is about a lot is around what is right, but also what is perceived as right and what is the impact on your business. 

And a really good example of that is that if anybody is watching what’s happening to Tesla at the moment in the market. Whether you believe in Trump and Elon Musk sort of behaviors at the moment or not, the fact is that they are having an impact on Tesla sales, especially in Europe. And so that’s an example of where the ethics part of the S plays a big part in your business. It’s how markets are perceived, both as a carrot to instill customers to come to you, or obviously putting people off.

Mik Aidt (08:55)

And I think, you know, this thing also, as we heard in the pep talk, the CEO pep talk there is really important to talk about, you know, how do we move beyond the shareholder centric model that is really the core of the problem of many things that is wrong at the moment. 

For instance, I believe deeply that the climate change problem we have in this world goes back to that, that businesses are so focused on their shareholders and not so much focused on the environment and the impact that their decisions have on society as a whole. So moving away from the shareholder centric model and considering the impact that our decisions have on all stakeholders, which are the employees, the customers, the communities, the suppliers and the planet.

Cherry Ward (09:41)

Absolutely. And I think the last one often gets forgotten. You know, it’s the silent stakeholder just because it doesn’t have a voice. know, and I think taking that sort of holistic view of all stakeholders is really key. And it was interesting you mentioned Tesla, Alan. 

I was just recently listening to ‘If You’re Listening’, the ABC podcast, and they talk about another business in the United States who’s made the same mistake as Tesla many years ago, which is, don’t know if you’ve heard of, know, the Coors beer company. If you go back, it’s a really fascinating story and it has direct sort of parallels to Tesla. And we’ll put that in the show notes, but it talks about how this company, they didn’t look at, you know, all the aspects of S and so you had all of these different groups, whether they were, they were anti-union initially.

But not only do they impact people who were unionised, also, you know, the LBGTI community, the migrants and so if all of these small groups or what you would call minority groups stop buying this particular brand of beer and they still haven’t recovered to this day, you know, people will buy Budweiser over Coors And so I think there’s so many lessons in that in terms of the S is just so much more and I think there’s so much depth in terms of how we look at it and the view of, you know, how do we make sure that we are considering all of the stakeholders in how an organisation or its leaders make decisions that impact all of their stakeholders.

Alan Taylor (11:14)

Yeah, it’s a great point. And I think we’ve, there’s two bits I wanna latch together. One is to remind me of more examples of this body shop in the UK that went bust last year. And that was because its owners, I’ve forgotten who bought them, but they disregarded its origins, which was an environment and social, both of the two. And as they describe, regarded that they lost their customer base and eventually they collapsed.

 But another point you mentioned is a silent stakeholder. And I think what’s a really curious part with that is that quite often they are actually even the shareholders, the significant shareholders. And there it’s a case of each of the shareholders is thinking, I believe this, but I don’t know. Therefore, I won’t put my voice up. I won’t put my hand up. But then you get certain cases where somebody’s, it’s almost like if people know the concept of the first follower, the first organisation or person starts the ball rolling, but they’re not noticed as being doing it. But once one or two people follow them, everybody follows the first follower. And that was an example that was demonstrated here in Australia when Atlassian boss decided that he wanted to try and buy AGL to clean them up.

AGL was like, no, we’re not going to actually do anything because our shareholders are not going to actually care. I know this is environment, but it’s an example of the situation about gas pollution and burning coal. But once he tried to buy the shares, well, he did buy a significant number of shares, suddenly there’s a whole backlash. All these silent people who are not liking the idea or were afraid of putting their hands up suddenly were.

And so I think there’s a lot of that that’s happening in the social space as well. It’s just people are not quite brave enough to put their hands up.

Mik Aidt (12:51)

Hmm. Cherry, tell us a little bit about your background and how you have been working with the ‘S’ in ESG for a long time. And then also what that brings you to today. Where are your headlines? What is the most important when we talk about the S in your view?

Cherry Ward (12:59)

Yes. Absolutely. So I’ve been sort of in organisational development, people and culture roles, and specifically being accountable for, diversity and inclusion and also extension of that community and stakeholder, in HR leadership roles. And so I’ve been involved in designing, delivering and implementing initiatives for DEI, diversity, equity and inclusion. 

I think most people are familiar with that. That’s become a word that, or a term that people are comfortable with. But I think the other aspect of it is more around that community and social impact work. So I’ve worked for organisations that are global and you know not every country is like Australia where everyone’s you know living in a developed country so sometimes I think organisations that are thinking about well how can we improve the very fabric of this society that we’re operating in you know yes we’re here to make money but at the same time if we’re able to improve lives improve people’s you know whether it’s living standards the way they think about life, aspirations and so on. 

That’s where that sort of community development, that social impact work comes in. So I think, you know, there are some great organisations out there doing a lot of that social impact work within the community, be it with Indigenous and First Nations or with low socioeconomic minority groups and so on. 

So I think there’s so many opportunities for organisations and what you will reap or the return on investment is so much more than what you see just on the balance sheet. To the point where whether it’s employees, their families, one company I worked for, they even started naming the kids the name of the organisation just because they saw the value and it was changing the lives of these communities that they were serving in.

Sorry, that was a long way of answering your question, Mik.

Mik Aidt (14:58)

No, yeah. So what are the headlines? Let’s say if I’m a CEO or someone who has, you know, decisions to make in this area, in my company, what would you say are the headlines? What’s the most important right now? Whether, you know, the world keeps changing and suddenly, for instance, the DEI really became famous because of Trump, you know, who has sort of put it in a very different light, hasn’t he?

Cherry Ward (15:20)

Absolutely. And for the wrong reasons, right? I’ve just read a report that just came out this week around, you know, the top reasons why employees are disillusioned. One of the top reasons is around companies not doing enough in the environment, social space, in the ESG space, essentially. 

So I think first of all, there’s an opportunity. The headline is engage with your employees because that’s so powerful. Because when you engage with your employees, yeah, they’re going to talk about the organisation at barbecues. 

You know, they will try and get their families to work experience, whatever it may be. It’s a bit like, you know, going back several decades ago when companies had family barbecues, for example. So think focus on your employees. They are your key stakeholders. They’re the ones that are delivering your work and making the sales, your services, so on. But then it’s also your customers who are buying from you and then the communities, how are you giving back to the communities and then the supply chain as well.

And of course the planet, the silent stakeholder. How do we change the narrative so that we are thinking and putting ourselves in the shoes of the stakeholders who might not be, who might not have a voice? I’ve heard of one organisation at a board meeting, they said, what if we put ourselves in the shoes of whales? What would they have to say about what we’re doing?

Alan Taylor (16:43)

Yeah, and it’s a beautiful one because we’ve got to sort of keep our eyes on that. And I just got to say a little interjection that a lot of people might be hearing this and going, but companies are not doing it. You mentioned Trump. That’s what brought this one out. And there’s a lot of noise about, yeah, so and so is dropping their reducing their DEI policies. They’re dropping their social governance policies and obviously environment. Interestingly, though, they’re the noisy headlines.

Recent research by PwC came up, just was shared only a couple of weeks ago, showing that actually, although a few companies have dropped their targets, actually more have increased their targets. And so companies have to be aware that if they are not doing this, it’s not only that it’s saving them money at the moment, which is often what a lot of companies do, they are going to become further and further behind, even though the noise is not making that clear to them perhaps, but it’s something they have to be watching for their own sustainability.

Mik Aidt (17:40)

I think the world is beginning to realise, even those people who thought that Trump was a great thinker and the rest, you know, are beginning to realise that America is in a big mess and the way they’re moving away from EVs, for instance, and moving away from wind turbines and so on, it’s gonna hurt. 

It’s gonna actually cost people in the long run because, you know, the rest of the world is moving on and very soon there won’t be anything else but EVs and the Americans will be going around in their fossil fuel cars and feeling really sorry because they’re getting more more expensive to drive.

Alan Taylor (18:12)

Just thinking to the, so the consequences, I’m just gonna divert back to another point that Cherry made. And it’s interesting when we think about America, but also Australia and the other first world countries as we’re often referred to the global North. It’s actually interesting, there’s a lot of social issues outside of the DEI, which are there as well. And being cognisant of how broad this topic actually is. 

In modern slavery, and I’ve forgotten the phrase, maybe somebody can remind me. There’s another one which isn’t quite the same as modern slavery, but it’s very similar in my view, in that, you know, the rich countries are still employing people at below rates, or they’re coercing people into paying horrendous fees to, well, provide you the support you need to get into our country, but not, you know, they’re ripping them off, or tying them into… constraining contracts where they can’t move. 

This is a form of modern slavery and it happens even here in Australia. If that’s in your supply chain, could you sleep at night if you were actually involved explicitly in that? Wouldn’t it be better to know that you’ve actually got a clean slate and that you’re actually doing this with that in mind?

Mik Aidt (19:18)

Conscience is the word I think. I think also the customers are increasingly, know, younger customers have more of that conscience, certainly the planetary conscience and the awareness of that we are hurting our planet and all life on it. And I think also these young people are making choices accordingly, you know, when they buy their products and so on. This is something where again, the S is not just like a nice thing to do. It is actually really about understanding your customers and how they want to live in this world.

Cherry Ward (19:50)

Absolutely. 

Alan Taylor (19:50)

Being able to sleep at night knowing that you’ve helped make the world a better place.

Mik Aidt (19:54)

So, Cherry, just that thing about the ethical something you had mentioned. Let’s have that in before we round off.

Cherry Ward (19:58)

Yeah, so one thing I do want to touch on, it’s really important part of the S is the ethical supply chains. So, know, Alan, you touched on modern slavery, I think it’s an extension of that. It’s about how do organisations think about how do they end the hidden human suffering behind global supply chains, you know, think about the low wages and third world developing countries and so on. 

And a lot of these people don’t see it. might buy a product and they think, okay, it’s green, eco conscious, whatever it is. But then it’s looking at, where is it actually made? How is it ethically sourced? know, is it fair labor practices? 

You know, especially in sort of that complex global sort of organisations and then I think the question that I get asked most of the time, the work that Alan and I are doing is, well, this is all great, but what’s the return on investment?

And so what’s exciting is, you know, there are ways that you can measure social impact. And Alan and I are working, you know, with Dr. Daniel Fujiwara and looking at how do we measure the social impact of these initiatives so that it’s, you know, it’s tangible. And you can say by investing in this particular social initiative, this is what we were able to contribute towards society, towards our business and so on. But more to come in future episodes on that.

Mik Aidt (21:21)

This is such a crucial conversation. can’t just end it here, but we will end this podcast. We’ll have to because we don’t want them to be too long. But certainly, as you can hear, the S raises some questions. The ‘S’ in ESG raises questions to you about your role in your business and how your business plays in the wider social fabric. What steps can your business take, big or small, to create this more responsible and impactful social citizen.

Cherry Ward (21:48)

Absolutely. I think, you know, we can deep dive into some of the elements of S and we’ve had some great episodes already from season one that dives into some of the great work that people are doing and we’ll put them in the show notes because I think that S is just more than diversity and inclusion. I think that’s what people think about when they think about the ‘S’.

It’s about all of the stakeholders and what are we doing or what are businesses and leaders doing to ensure that we are meeting the needs of all of our stakeholders.

Mik Aidt (22:17)

Remember, the revolution doesn’t end here. It’s up to each and every one of us to take this knowledge and inspiration that you hopefully also picked up from today’s episode and turn it into action.

Alan Taylor (22:28)

And that’s whether it’s implementing sustainable practices in your own business or advocating for change in your community. Every step counts towards building a better future. And I’m just going to call out quickly, keep an eye out for our future episode when we are chatting to Daniel Fujiwara because that’s going to give you so much insight into how that can be done.

Cherry Ward (22:45)

And don’t forget to visit our website, businessrevolution.earth for more resources, past episodes and ways to get involved. Just one more thing I wanted to add is, you we’d love to hear your thoughts and examples. So connect with us on social media or visit our website, drop us a note and share any insights on this ESG series. And we’d love to get some.

Mik Aidt (23:05)

Because your feedback actually helps us reach even further out, reach more listeners and amplify our collective impact.

Alan Taylor (23:15)

So thank you for joining us on this journey of transformation. Together we can revolutionise the way we do business, and take pride in the fact that we are creating a world that’s sustainable for generations to come.

Cherry Ward (23:27)

So stay tuned for insights and inspirations and actionable steps to help you reshape the way we do business for a better tomorrow. We have some fantastic guests lined up for future episodes.

Alan Taylor (23:39)

So until next time, keep innovating, keep inspiring and keep pushing for positive change for a brighter tomorrow. I’m Alan.

Cherry Ward (23:46)

And I’m Cherry.

Mik Aidt (23:47)

And I’m Mik, signing off. The Business Revolution starts with you.

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The Business Revolution Episode 12

In this episode, we delve into the “E” of ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance), focusing on the environmental aspects and their growing importance in the business world.

We demystify the ESG framework, explaining how it helps stakeholders understand an organization’s sustainability risks and opportunities.

The discussion covers:

• Businesses that adapt quickly, embrace innovation, and stay ahead of regulations can turn ESG into an opportunity for growth and resilience.

• What “E” entails – greenhouse gas emissions, waste management, natural resource stewardship, and resilience against climate risks.

• The evolution of ESG from EHS (Environment, Health, and Safety) in the 1980s to corporate sustainability in the 1990s and CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) in the 2000s, leading to the comprehensive ESG framework we see today.

• The urgency of climate action and the need for immediate action to address climate change, urging business leaders to phase out fossil fuels and embrace renewable energy.

• Practical steps for businesses to Assess climate-related risks, reduce carbon emissions, adopting circular economy practices, and managing resources sustainably.

• The role of technology and innovation – the importance of clean technologies, green innovation, and the use of AI and blockchain in ESG reporting.

• The changing regulatory landscape and the increasing number of environmental regulations.

• The relevance of ESG in 2025, its continued importance as an investment trend, despite regional differences and challenges.

• Employee engagement and the importance of engaging your employees in your environmental and sustainability goals.

Audio version:

Mik Aidt
Mik has been a highly influential player with respect to our environment, with very active communications experience for over 10 years. Examples include playing a very significant part in the global ‘Climate Emergency Declaration’ movement, and long-lived podcasts.

Cherry Ward
Cherry is a seasoned leadership development expert, coach (ICF ACC), and advisor with over two decades of experience in the corporate world. She is also the founder of Bluebird Leadership, a boutique consulting firm pioneering innovative solutions that cultivate thriving leaders, teams, cultures, and a sustainable planet.

Alan Taylor
Alan has moved from corporate IT consulting into this domain because he adamantly believes that humans need to adapt, businesses can benefit from this new revolution and therefore he is determined to help it happen. Alan is an accredited coach (ICF ACC), supporting leaders and teams in personal and leadership development and transformation.

Episode 12 links

 𝐓𝐁𝐑 notes and transcript: www.businessrevolution.earth/businessrevolution12

𝐓𝐁𝐑 episode 12 for download: audio mp3

 𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: open.spotify.com/episode

 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭: podcasts.apple.com

 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞: video

Social media posts: Linkedin – Facebook – Instagram

Cherry Ward (00:00)

Welcome or welcome back to the business revolution, the podcast where we’re rewriting the rules of business for a sustainable future. I’m Cherry, your co host.

Alan Taylor (00:09)

And I’m Alan.

Mik Aidt (00:10)

And I’m Mik. We are your guides on this journey to explore the intersection of business, sustainability and positive change.

Alan Taylor (00:18)

And in each episode, are bringing inspirational conversations with experts, entrepreneurs, and change makers who are proving that sustainability isn’t just good for the planet, it’s actually good for business.

Cherry Ward (00:28)

We will uncover innovative solutions, share practical strategies, and discover the new trends that will shape the future of sustainable business.

Mik Aidt (00:37)

So whether you are a seasoned CEO or an entrepreneur or simply curious about how to make a difference, you’ve come to the right place.

Alan Taylor (00:46)

So grab a cup of your favorite brew, settle in, and get ready to be inspired. This is the business revolution.

Cherry Ward (00:52)

So this episode is just the three of us and we have a special three part series on ESG, environmental, social and governance. You may have heard of us referring to ESG many times throughout the various episodes on this podcast. So we want to demystify this acronym.

Alan Taylor (01:10)

So what is ESG? Well, ESG is essentially a framework which helps, and this is an important bit, help stakeholders understand how an organisation manages risks and opportunities around sustainability issues.

And starting with the E, the environment, environmental factors refer to an organisation’s environmental impacts and risk management practices. That sounds all big and complicated, but these include directly and indirectly all of the things that a business creates or has an impact on. They include things like greenhouse gas emissions, waste management and pollution, management stewardship over natural resources. 

That means its impact on things like biodiversity, trees, all those sorts of things. And quite often, they’re not as obvious. You’re not as avoided from that as you might think. So please listen on. 

You’ll hear more as we talk through, because this has an impact also on the firm’s overall resilience against physical climate risks, like climate change, flooding, and fires. But there’s more than that. The thing is, all of these things impact the business indirectly as well. As the politics and the things around the world are changing, the environment is very broad reaching.

Cherry Ward (02:17)

Then there’s the social pillar, which refers to the organisation’s relationship with all of its stakeholders. Examples include human capital management metrics, so things like fair wages, employee engagement, employee wellbeing, but also an organisation’s impact on communities in which it operates. And a hallmark of ESG is how social impact expectations have extended outside the walls of a company, to its supply chain partners, and particularly in those developing countries where environmental and social labor standards may be less robust.

Mik Aidt (02:54)

And then there’s the G, which stands for governance. Governance in a corporation, that’s about how a CEO, how the management leads and takes the organisation to a new place. You could say, ESG analysts will seek to understand. 

For instance, how leadership incentives are aligned with stakeholders’ expectations, how shareholder rights are viewed and honored, and what types of internal controls exist in the company to promote transparency and accountability on the part of leadership. And I think that’s a very important word when we talk about the G accountability.

So that was just a brief on what is the E, what is the S, and what is the G. But how did it all come about, this ESG thing? 

We’ve created a little course, and when I say we, in that context, it’s a company from Denmark. A good friend of mine has a company called Kelsa Media, and together with a friend here in Geelong, where I am based, we run a company called Geelong Media.

So it’s a collaboration between Geelong Media and Kelsa Media that stands behind producing these small courses about different topics. We talk about cybersecurity, we talk about personal data protection, and we have started a new series about ESG, which is all about getting the employees in tune with what does this mean? So the first course we have in that series is simply called An Introduction to ESG.

And in that course, we have just a little explanation about how did ESG come about, where did it all start? And it goes like this.

—————————————————————————

Cherry Ward (04:27)

The concept of ESG has evolved over several decades. We may have heard of EHS, environment, health and safety in the 80s, which is still around, corporate sustainability in the 90s, CSR, which is corporate social responsibility. 

And there’s been several iterations, which has broadened the scope of how businesses consider their impact on the environment, society, and the wider stakeholders. So while early approaches were often reactive or used for marketing purposes, greenwashing, ESG has emerged as a more proactive and a comprehensive framework, which encompasses environmental and social impact, as well as governance structures, how a company goes about governing you know, it’s ethical decision making and so on that prioritises stakeholder wellbeing as a fundamental basis.

Alan Taylor (05:21)

Just adding into that is, there’s a common perception that the stakeholders or the people around are not actually that bothered. And there’s a few cases in the last couple of years where the big Australian business people have gone, I don’t think that’s true. And they’ve upset the apple cart. This happened in particular with AGL.

Mike Cannon-Brooks attempted a takeover and you can see that what happened then was the shareholders who had previously been believing, know, everybody believed was not interested when actually, yeah, this is important. And they had a very big shift in the organisation over the next two years. So that gives you an idea that sometimes what we perceive and what is reality are not the same.

Mik Aidt (05:59)

So let’s get even deeper into what the E in ESG means. And as we have already mentioned a couple of times, there’s a lot of climate change in there. It does have a lot to do with what’s happening to our atmosphere, the extreme weather events, and so on. 

So we’ve put another little video together. And when I say we here, it’s us, the business revolution, where we are trying to convince or we’re going to show you why we think business leaders need to pay attention here when it comes to getting into ESG.

———————————————————–

Video (06:29)

Thank you for taking the time to listen. I know your schedules are packed. You run businesses, you make decisions that shape industries, and many of you have been hearing about climate change for decades. Perhaps you’ve even taken steps to address it. But let me make one thing crystal clear. We are out of time for half measures. 

For nearly four decades, scientists have warned that human-caused climate change was accelerating. Every major prediction has come true, faster and with greater severity than expected. And yet year after year we have failed to course correct at the speed science demands. 

I am not here to tell you that you alone can stop climate change. But I am here to tell you that as business leaders you hold more power than most governments. While policy makers argue and delay, industries act. The choices you make, what energy you buy, what materials you source, what supply chains you build, send ripples through the entire economy. 

Right now we are at a turning point. The window for limiting global warming to a livable level is closing. 2024 marked the first year in human history that global temperatures temporarily exceeded 1.5 degrees Celsius above pre-industrial levels. This is no longer a distant warning, it is our present reality.

And as we have seen, that means more extreme weather, supply chain disruptions, food insecurity and economic instability, threats that will not only harm people but your businesses as well. 

But here’s the good news. We know exactly what to do. We need to phase out fossil fuels quickly. That means electrifying everything possible, sourcing power from renewables, investing in efficiency and pushing for carbon pricing policies that make polluters pay for the damage they cause.

And yes, that means rethinking business models. Not in 10 years. Not in 5. Now. I know this is not easy. Change never is. But let me be blunt. If your industry continues to rely on fossil fuels, if net zero remains a distant goal instead of an immediate priority, you are betting against the future. You are betting against your own children and grandchildren. 

There is no time for greenwashing. No time for empty commitments. You are decision makers. So decide, will you be part of the problem or part of the solution? The next decade will define what kind of world we leave behind. Be on the right side of history.

We stopped the burning, we found a better way…it’s both cheaper and cleaner…

————————————————————

Mik Aidt (09:31)

So obviously, as was expressed in this letter or speech, greenhouse gases is the number one and electrifying your business. But it’s also about getting prepared for what’s coming, adapting to the physical impacts, the extreme weather events that are already here and certainly are impacting businesses in so many ways as we’re already seeing. If you go into the supermarket, there’s suddenly empty shelves here and there.

And that’s a direct result of climate change. So it’s about how can we get prepared and we need to get our employees involved as well in that preparing and thinking about the risks, the climate related risks that are ahead of us, but also the opportunities that are in this change that’s happening globally. And what are the most effective strategies for reducing our carbon emissions very quickly?

And how can we as a business contribute to that transition to a low carbon economy as what we’re talking about?

Cherry Ward (10:27)

And some of the questions that businesses can ask themselves as they plan and go through their strategy sessions and off sites and alike is, how can we assess our climate related risk and opportunities? What are some of the most effective strategies for reducing carbon emissions? 

Even things like, I know there’s this big debate around return to office mandates. Has anyone actually measured the carbon footprint of people returning to the office? Whether they’re driving, commuting, how they’re commuting, et cetera. So I think there’s a lot of ways and I think it’s thinking outside the box. How can businesses, how can we as an organisation contribute to a low carbon economy? And it’s thinking about those different scopes and emissions. We won’t get too technical here, but it’s more than just the direct carbon emissions.

Alan Taylor (11:14)

And so it’s about adapting to a lot of this. As Mick touched on, some of these things can be low hanging fruit and quick savings. And even that isn’t as unbelievable as it might be. We had a speaker on the podcast a few months ago who was talking about how moving homes and small businesses to electric can save money immediately because of the various funding options that are available as well as the long-term benefits from electrification. 

You’ve got that sort of savings that come through how we think about our impact on the environment and water. Well, if you’re using less water, you’ve got less cost of buying as much. It’s the same with all of our other events and actions.

Cherry Ward (11:50)

The other aspect of environment is.. the resource management. So organisations to think about, are we using resources, water, land, forest, et cetera, sustainably? What’s our waste management practices? And are we looking at how can we adopt circular economy thinking and practices into the business, as well as pollution prevention and control, and then also biodiversity conservation.

Alan Taylor (12:15)

Waste management is another easy, quick win. By managing the waste properly in your building, obviously it depends on your building structure. You might have to talk to a building manager around doing this in a big corporate shared building. if you’ve reduced the actual landfill and put more into recycling, that actually reduces your waste management bills as well as having an impact on the environment. So some of these other quick wins you can have can be really powerful.

Cherry Ward (12:40)

Absolutely, Alan There’s one organisation that I used to work for and they did this 15 years ago. There was a mixed use building. So by mixed use, I mean, you’ve got, you know, say retail, commercial, residential, and they were using the air conditioning heat from the retail shopping center underneath to heat the pool for the residential complex. So it doesn’t have to be overly complicated. It’s just thinking about how can we divert that waste into an energy source?

Alan Taylor (13:09)

It’s a beautiful example of where it’s about thinking differently and how we approach these things. Because for that, it wasn’t a me or you. The example you just used there, Cherry it’s like, you’ve got this conversation that’s got to be had. Well, we’ve got a pool, we’ve got some excess heat. How can we help each other and not be, it’s just all about me. And that’s been happening in other areas with resource management. 

Perfect example is a lot of the councils around the country or water management and waste management now using that for bioenergy. I’m thinking, how can they put that same waste to create heat, to actually create power? These are where, hang on a minute, shouldn’t these be separate utilities? No. Let’s complement each other and support that system that we need.

Mik Aidt (13:50)

On top of everything that we’ve talked about here is of course that the landscape of law and legislation is changing quickly. Governments are actually beginning to wake up to this. And I think in particular in the EU, we’re seeing new laws that are like even like shocking in terms of how much European companies now have to report on and be compliant with and so on. There are 1200 different things that they have to get their minds set in on acting on. And that will come to Australia just as well. And it is coming already. We’ve seen some new legislation here by January and more will be rolling out in the months and years to come. So that’s an aspect as well that, you know, every business need to, you know, get aligned with in many ways. And there’s a lot to look into there and a lot to learn.

Alan Taylor (14:41)

Yeah, and I think this is another thing we can share, especially for the listeners who are in Melbourne, we’ve got an event in just a few weeks on the 26th of March, where we’ve got experts from finance, actual from industry and doing manufacturing, and actually helping with the measures and all the things we’ve talked about, where you can actually start to understand where the benefits are, how it all fits together. Because quite often we look at each of these aspects in silos, and the governance it’s almost like an anchor that can pull those things together in a positive way to help actually drive that change.

Mik Aidt (15:13)

This is important. How can businesses ensure that they are compliant with all these environmental regulations? But also how can businesses engage with stakeholders on these issues?

Alan Taylor (15:23)

And better still, engage with your employees at the moment. Obviously we’re almost branching into the social world. This is how they interweave. When you’ve got employees who are engaged at a time where we talk about quiet quitting and various other behavioural patterns in the workplace, if you engage people and make them actually feel part of the solution, that’s been proven to be a very big motivator and people in your organisation. So, the beauty of the crowd.

Mik Aidt (15:49)

And that’s the whole, exactly and that’s the whole positive story of the green transition, which is how fast technology is actually developing. It’s almost every day we hear about a new invention as something that has become faster and better or cheaper and so on. So technology is moving very, very fast. And it’s also about, you know, that businesses, of course, you take advantage of that.

Cherry Ward (16:10)

Yeah, absolutely. That innovation and technology is a crucial part of the E. So what are some of the clean technologies that your businesses can adopt? Again, thinking innovatively about that, even the way the investment landscape in ESG is changing. 

There’s one company I can think of is called Lower Carbon Capital, and they only invest in technology that is focused on lowering carbon emissions. And they’re a huge private equity firm, investing in new startups. So thinking about that green innovation and sustainable product development, there are countless new startups emerging, looking at the role of technology in environmental management.

Alan Taylor (16:56)

And building on that is when you can get involved in change… back to a point that was made a bit ago, you know, change can be quite daunting for people, but when you actually put them on the bus and be the drivers of that bus, then it becomes a motivator in doing this. 

And that’s one of the things, for example, Cherry and I are involved in with a group called Net Zero Map. This is a global research group, which we’ve proven that actually doing that not only helps increase motivation, it’s actually increased the ability to think outside the box.

And when you weave that into your own business, when you’ve got that ability that can be used, motivated around that, that’s a reusable skill and capability that can drive your whole business capabilities outside of just the sustainability. So this is potential benefits all around.

Mik Aidt (17:32)

This is absolutely key because you know, really what makes a business thrive is the joy of the employees. You know, that the employees are engaged and feel, when they come to work, they feel happy, they feel engaged, they feel that this is exciting. That’s really what drives a business forward.

Alan Taylor (17:53)

And that’s why I love this fact that this is actually beyond the compliance. You can use the compliance almost more like a suite rather than a stick because you can use the measures that you can put in place can be actually really good motivators. 

You can say, Hey guys, this is what we’ve done. We have done. And when you bring that narrative is that we have been part of it. You have been part of this. That engages your stakeholders and engages as a good stories to tell to your clients. And that builds across.

You look at some of the companies like Patagonia that have actually used that as part of their branding. They didn’t used to be in this space. They’ve adapted and brought it into their culture. And it’s a big win.

Mik Aidt (18:29)

And that whole thing we talked about, accountability. It actually feels great to be accountable. It actually feels great when you’re showing the benefits of what you’re doing and that you are a responsible adult taking responsibility in the world we live in. That feels great at all levels.

Cherry Ward (18:46)

But one thing that’s been on my mind, and I’m sure it’s on a lot of our listeners as well as business leaders is thinking about, well, is ESG still relevant in 2025? I know we discussed earlier about the evolution. I think it’s just a slightly different acronym. I think it’s more of an amalgamated view of how an organisation should have ethical practices and have good governance.

The future of ESG in 2025 is, it can be, you may think it’s uncertain. It’s politically charged. We know that, you know, there’s, in some regions like the US there’s some backlash. However, my view is that ESG is still a strong investment trend globally. You know, there’s a lot of data around.

If you think about superannuation in Australia, the 401k funds in the US, any kind of retirement funds, they’re all investing in green technology like renewables because the return on investment over the long term is huge. It outperforms other assets or stocks. And here are some key sort of predictions from the Corporate Governance Institute.

Alan Taylor (19:54)

There’s some great predictions, they include the deepening regional divides, that there’s a gap between pro-ESG and anti-ESG regions. I think anybody watching world politics at the moment is seeing that, and that’s widening. They’re seeing that there’s an increased need for ESG expertise. Now there’s an interesting one. You can see these contradictions in here almost, but we’re going to need it because companies still need to upskill in a matter that’s stricter for transparency and reporting requirements, even if that’s only for certain regions. 

Now, if you’re an exporter to Europe, for example, or want to be an exporter to Europe, you’re going to need to do this. Plus, course, Australian regulations started, the 1st of January.

Technology is driving ESG reporting. AI and blockchain will revolutionise ESG data collection and analysis. And then, of course, you’ve got to battle with the hushing in the US. Companies in the US may become quieter around their ESG efforts to avoid political backlash, but there’s also a big push for a lot of this in the US still in a lot of the states. 

So it’s this very regional and there’s still a rise of corporate activism. There’s this polarized view on ESG. It’s going to lead to increased investor activism. We’ve already starting to see this. I mentioned a case, an example earlier with, with AGL in Australia. So this is how it’s sort of going to go. It’s a bit messy, but it’s definitely moving in that direction.

Cherry Ward (21:14)

Absolutely. I think the story of ESG is being written in real time. You know, we won’t know what happens, you know, at the end of 2025, where we’ll be but whilst, you know, Alan spoke about the lie, the loud political pushback in the media.

And you contrast that with what’s happening actually in investment in terms of dollars, you know, and where investors are putting their money, which is into, you know, companies that are focused on ESG, renewable tech and so on. So I think despite all of these challenges, businesses that can adapt quickly, can embrace innovation and stay ahead of regulations can… they can turn ESG into an opportunity for growth and resilience.

Alan Taylor (21:57)

And they’re not just a few companies. Last year, 2024, the actual investment in environment, and obviously we’re talking environmental here, environmental investment. I haven’t got the figures off the top of my head, but they have been the highest. They’ve continued growing. Even at the end of 2024, they slowed down a bit, but they haven’t stopped. And so, yeah, this is not going to go away for sure.

Mik Aidt (22:18)

This was all we could sort of talk about the E in such a short time that we have in our episodes of the Business Revolution. But of course, there’s a lot more to say and we’ll put that out in our notes on the website, businessrevolution.earth. And including, for instance, that introduction course that I talked about, the E learning course for employees about ESG and other things that we have talked about in the 20 minutes that we’ve been talking.

Alan Taylor (22:47)

So that’s a wrap for this episode of the Business Revolution. We hope you enjoyed diving deep into the world of business and sustainability.

Cherry Ward (22:54)

Remember that the revolution doesn’t end here. It’s up to each and every one of us to take this knowledge and inspiration from today’s episode and turn it into action.

Mik Aidt (23:04)

Whether it’s implementing sustainable practices in your own business or advocating for change in your community, it all comes together. It all matters. It all steps towards building a better future for us all.

Alan Taylor (23:17)

And don’t forget to visit our website, businessrevolution.earth, for more resources, past episodes, and ways to get involved.

Cherry Ward (23:24)

And if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, be sure to subscribe and rate and review the business revolution from your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback does help us reach more listeners and also amplify our impact.

Mik Aidt (23:38)

So stay tuned. The business revolution will be back with more insights and inspiration and actionable steps for you. How we reshape our world.

Cherry Ward (23:46)

Until next time, keep innovating, keep inspiring yourself and others and keep pushing for positive change for a brighter tomorrow. This is Cherry.

Mik Aidt (23:55)

Mik.

Alan Taylor (23:55)

And Alan signing off. The business revolution starts with you.

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The Business Revolution Episode 11

In this episode, we explore the power of coaching in driving sustainability progress within organisations. Our guest, Dr Jon Rhodes, a chartered psychologist and co-founder of Net Zero MAP, shares his insights on how a coaching-led approach can empower individuals, strengthen teams, and accelerate sustainable change.

We discuss the Net Zero MAP framework, the importance of intrinsic motivation, and the role of leadership in creating a culture of sustainability. Tune in as we uncover the transformative potential of coaching for a more sustainable future.

Tune in to gain valuable insights and get inspired to attend our event on 26 March 2025.

Audio version:

Dr Jon Rhodes is a highly accomplished Chartered Psychologist with a proven track record of empowering individuals and teams across a diverse range of fields, including Olympic athletes, Members of Parliament, business executives, the Ministry of Defence, education, and healthcare. He holds a PhD in Psychology from the University of Plymouth and is a Chartered Member of the British Psychological Society.

As the co-founder of Imagery Coaching, Jon co-developed the groundbreaking Functional Imagery Training approach, specifically designed to enhance individual and team performance. By focusing on values, beliefs, thoughts, and actions, his approach leverages the fundamentals of intrinsic motivation – connection, autonomy, and mastery, which demonstrably drives lasting behaviour change including increased self-awareness, self-efficacy and resilience and consistent goal achievement.​

Links:

Net Zero MAP: www.netzeromap.org

Dr Jon Rhodes on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/jon-rhodes-phd

Imagery Coaching: www.imagerycoaching.com

The world’s progress towards the United Nations’ Sustainable Development Goals is slow. Why?

A key factor is how we think and act. Research shows that individual and organisational challenges, such as limited self-awareness, unconscious biases, short term thinking and ineffective collaboration, hinder our ability to translate strategies into action.

To overcome these challenges, the Inner Development Goals project was initiated in 2019 by a number of organisations that identified an urgent need for the development of relevant skills and qualities for inner growth of leaders who work with complex societal issues.

The result is a framework with five dimensions:

Being: Understanding ourselves and our motivations.
Thinking: Expanding our awareness and seeing problems as opportunities.
Relating: Building empathy and appreciation for others.
Collaborating: Fostering trust and effective teamwork.
Acting: Overcoming inner blocks and taking action.

By consciously applying these dimensions, we can improve our decision-making, collaboration, and overall effectiveness in achieving our goals.

Businesses like 3P Impact and Bluebird Leadership are using the Inner Development Goals in their work, helping unlock the best in ourselves and our teams.

You can find out more about the Inner Development Goals here

Episode 11 links

 𝐓𝐁𝐑 notes and transcript: www.businessrevolution.earth/businessrevolution11

𝐓𝐁𝐑 episode 11 for download: audio mp3

 𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: open.spotify.com/episode

 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭: podcasts.apple.com

 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞: video

Social media posts: Linkedin – Facebook – Instagram

Welcome or welcome back to some of you to The Business Revolution, the podcast where we tend to rewrite the rules of business for the green transition for a sustainable future. I’m Mik, your co-host.

And I’m Cherry.

And I’m Alan and we’re your guides on this journey to explore the intersection of business, sustainability and positive change.

Each episode will bring you inspiring conversations with experts, entrepreneurs, changemakers who are proving that sustainability isn’t just good for the planet, it’s good for business as well.

We do our best to uncover innovative solutions and good practical strategies for businesses. And we’re always on the lookout for new trends that will shape the future of sustainable business.

Even whether you’re a seasoned CEO, a budding entrepreneur, or simply curious about how to make a difference, you’ve come to the right place.

So grab a cup of your favourite sustainable brew, settle in and get ready to be inspired. This is The Business Revolution.

And in this episode, we’re going to explore how a coaching led approach can drive sustainability progress in a company. And not only that, it can also empower the employees and strengthen their connection to their organisations.

And to help us explore this fascinating topic, we’re joined by our colleague from Net Zero Map, Dr Jon Rhodes.

Jon is a highly accomplished chartered psychologist with a proven track record in empowering individuals and teams across diverse fields, from Olympic athletes to business executives. He’s the co-founder of imagery coaching and co-developer of the groundbreaking functional imagery training approach. Jon, welcome to The Business Revolution.

Thank you very much, thank you. Great intro. I know, yeah, it feels like I’m busy. It’s like I’m busy a lot, but I suppose I have been.

You’ve got your PhD in psychology and the University of Plymouth and you’re doing all of your other businesses. I think so.

I think I’m just curious. I’m curious too. I’m of service. I like to support people. I like to support organisations and I think that behavior change is a fascinating thing we talk about a lot.

In industry, in sport, in the military and even at home we talk about change. So I think it’s a good word. It can also be a naughty word as well. So I think it’s just navigating that with the right motivation in mind.

Yeah, it’s a really relevant topic. Well, it always is, right? There’s always change. It keeps us busy, keeps us employed in terms of the work that we do.

That’s the truth. Yeah. And it’s interesting, you know, because there are so many frameworks and things that exist within behavior change, but they’re also unique to the situation, the circumstance, the time, the priorities, the purpose, all those things are already important when you think about change. 

You know, and we’re all at different levels of readiness to change as well. So I think it’s meeting the person where they are, figuring out what the best route is, and then supporting them or giving them a MAP in our case, to really work through navigating change over time.

I think that’s a good starting point. And I think, this is a question for both yourself, Jon and Alan and for our listeners who might not know, Alan and I are also partners in the Net Zero MAP team, along with Jon and a couple of others. 

We’re a collective of coaches and consultants, and we all have diverse backgrounds in psychology, sustainability, business, coaching, etc. tut this might be a good starting point in terms of, you know, you guys are the co-founders or started the journey. Tell us a little bit about the MAP model and where that came from.

Yeah, I think from my point of view, it’s thinking about the problem first. You know, we’ve all been in organisations where we struggle to make a change. 

We’ve all, you know, been in organisations where the leaders are perhaps the issue. We’ve all been in organisations where we have lots of information around change, but there’s no real motivation to act. So we all know that, right? 

We have this kind of inbuilt human way that, you know, being the change makers are really important, but actually as humans, we struggle to adapt and to change quite often. We like our routine and our habits. 

So, yeah, I suppose our problem to start off with was really figuring out, you know, where people are in their journey of change. 

Do they actually care about net zero? Do they care about being sustainable in their behaviours? Some people do not, some organisations do not. 

So it’s meeting people where they currently are and then working with them to really focus on intrinsic motivation to then, I suppose, to kind of pollinate these ideas within groups so that people can kind of gain tracks around why it’s important to you first, to you as an individual, and then why it’s important for us as an organisation. And what can we do beyond the organisation as well?

Thinking about that kind of global change or community change and then national change and global change. 

So we’re looking at all those different levels. But my interest is really again around, can you measure it? Can we do something about it? Can we retest it? And so what? Can we actually have an impact over time? And the people show behavioral intentions and actions as well.

Hmm, so what’s the answer to all that? I mean, I’m really curious now.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, it’s an age old answer. The age old answer is emotion drives behavior change, not information. 

And, you know, we could talk about Aristotle and all these historical figures and why it was so important, but we kind of forget it over time. And we go back to what we think we need to do. But it’s really an inside-out process of behavior change, which starts with values for us.

So as a group, we kind of said: Look, if you don’t know your values and you’re not aware of your values, then that’s where we start. But also: Can you show me on your calendar where your values show up? So how are you putting your values into action?

And so we would do that with teams. We would say: Where is it? 

If you value curiosity, for example, if that’s one of your core driving factors. Where is it? Where is your time in the week where you can live this kind of be curious and allow yourself this ability to mind-wonder and to be creative? And people might say: No, well, I haven’t really got that! So, you’re not living your values. 

So we started with this intrinsic factor around values and you know intrinsic motivation is really focused on yeah my purpose my why but also being connected to others so I need to have this ability to connect to feel related to feel like we’re all in this together and there’s some kind of plan over time as well.

Yeah, it’s I mean, we’ve created this kind of process, I suppose, in a way, which is the MAP. So your own personal meaning. What does it mean to you? 

Awareness. What can you do? Are you aware of some of the kind of behavioral intentions and then purpose? 

So, so what? So we look at this kind of MAP approach and through lots of dialogues, with lots of discussions with individuals and then with teams, we can really start to unlock motivation and unlock future potential around sustained behaviour change.

So what does the MAP look like today? Is it a pamphlet? Is it a course that you go through? What is it in concrete terms?

Perfect. That’s a great question because we are developing concrete materials to be able to obviously disseminate our approach to everyone. 

So initially there is a research paper, which is kind of where we started, which explains exactly what the processes are, the steps are for the MAP. Now, of course, every coach in the world will have their own philosophy, their own approaches. 

So we kind of guide you through the certain things you will need to do within the academic paper, but also we are developing courses as well to teach the process. 

This starts really with person-centered communication, this kind of empathy-based connection from the inside out and thinking about why is it important to you? 

And if it’s not, well, why not? There must be a reason why. And often we have difficult conversations with people around, around change and they may not be ready to change, it not be the right time.

And with every goal, the other thing that we use a lot as well, especially from my background, is looking at how your imagination plays a key role in this process. Because every goal that you have, every conversation that you foresee, you will use imagination in certain ways. 

So we support individuals and teams to really plan through in depth and detail, we call it multi-sensory imagery, plan through different scenarios, plan through different conversations, plan through what if we didn’t do it, what if we did do it, and we get them to hypothesise in great depth and detail and then formulate plans over time. 

But yeah, that’s a course that we’re developing that we aim to, again, to cascade out. And we’ve got a book out coming out as well this year. So there’s lots of resources where people can then pick up the model.

And I understand both Alan and Cherry are part of that book. You’ve also contributed?

Yeah, the team – we’ve all contributed and have to give a lot to Jon. He’s done… he’s certainly been the key person behind it. So credit where is due there. But yeah, we’ve all added a little bit in there. 

But I’d like to add a little bit to what Jon said and sort of share it from a different lens as well on on that understanding ourselves in our own values. And as we’re going through the program, we were able to see it was almost like holding up the mirror in been

I hope that people could see themselves, they’re sharing what their values were and then they were able to actually unpack what that really meant to them. 

It’s sort of reiterating what Jon said really, but where the strength of that was, I just want to emphasise it, I think, is when people were using those imagery, all the tools that Jon’s just mentioned, it’s just seeing the lights come on sometimes. Some of those people who weren’t necessarily ready for change were suddenly able to go, wow, light bulb, ding.

And now we can actually, I want to change now, or in some other cases, it was how the alignment was there. Okay, I want change for this reason. You want to change for that reason. 

But now we can actually see we’ve got different reasons to go down the same path, or at least in similar paths that we can build on that and want to, and that’s a really powerful word, want to actually play around in that space. And it was a big driver.

Something I’ve noticed, and maybe you would comment on this, either of you three, about sustainability is that we humans, we tend to do what our neighbours are doing or what people around us are doing. 

If we stand in an elevator, it’s as simple as that, if there are three people in there before us, we’ll stand in the same direction as they do – and so on. So we are these sort of social animals. And how does that work in a company?

Because I would think that it’s not just about individuals, it’s actually about finding a way to get all these individuals to do something where they feel they’re together about it. Or am I wrong?

You’re totally right. Spot on, Mik. As well, I think that there’s the, you know, we’re using a lot of approaches in what we do. Like we are starting with you as an individual because you own your own choices. 

So we empower people to really have the knowledge and the motivation to own those moments of being more climate aware or sustainable interactions. 

Then hopefully that cascade, which is what’s happened. One person has a knock on the fetch from another person. So yes, we’re using, you mentioned the start functional imagery training, which is the whole, do you imagine this happening? 

We’re using nudge approaches to these areas as well. We’re thinking about how small, you know, behaviours that you might do would have an impact on other people. 

There are infographics, there’s meetings going on groups are running projects around sustainable behaviours. 

So it is an individual shift related to other people that connects and draws in, it’s like a magnet that draws in interest. 

And we have lots in there as well, to speak to Alan’s part and what his focus was really on, was on systems-led thinking and systems approaches. We have lots in there as well, of course, about systems thinking, you know, and the way that I see it, and I’m just going to kind of free style here, in my weird world of seeing things is… I see it as like a water system, right? 

So you have your national board where your water comes from, where it’s all stored in the reservoir or whatever, and it kind of filters through all the housing that comes down to what you see. 

You see the tap at the end, right? And so quite often, if the system is not working, people generally say, it’s the person at the top not doing their job and they replace the tap.

That’s what you see. Well, actually what we are doing is we’re impacting all the small systems that you can’t see, all the small infrastructures to stop the drips throughout the organisation. So that’s a very sustainable and efficient system. 

And that when, comes the tap, water comes out, you’re coming up with the most amount of momentum and motivation and intention as well.

I loved that. It’s brilliant. And I think it also reminds me of what you’ve shared there, especially the beginning of that part. Remind me of one of the very commonly used frames or word or terms that’s used when you talk about team work. 

It’s like there’s no I in team. And where that systemic thing plays in is that there is an I in team, as long as the I understands that they’re part of the team. And that’s another way of reframing what’s said earlier as well.

And so when you’ve got all of these pieces in the team, I’ll change to a game, know soccer or rugby or any game where you’ve got a team sport… is I understand that, I’m part of that. And yeah, we want to score the goal. I might be the defender, but it’s what I’m doing is helping the whole team play to achieve the score. 

Even though it doesn’t look like it, you start to have that realisation that it isn’t as obvious. It’s just another version of what Jon shared with the with the water really, it’s not that obvious flow. And so that systemic thinking mindset is a really powerful addition to our toolkit.

Cherry, how do you see it in terms of the work that you’re doing also as a coach? How is it going to work for you to go out with this MAP?

Yeah, it’s a great question. I think the organisations and clients I’m working with will see a lot of value in that because what often happens is, you know, using Jon’s analogy, we’ll fix the tap, you know, we’ll try and fix rather than thinking about what, well, what’s actually happening. 

And I think any change requires, you know, all the parts to be working. And that’s part of that culture of transformation work that I’m often involved in. 

You know, and I’ve seen it happen over the last two decades with safety in high risk industries. And you’ve got to take a multi-layered approach. And it’s the same in sustainability. 

People need to have awareness of why we’re actually doing this within an organisation, but also what’s my personal connection to it. Because if there isn’t a personal connection, then it just becomes compliance.

And so you imagine, just going to add to what Cherry is saying, bringing it in as an example within the program when we ran it, you’ve got people’s personal connection, might be, yeah, I don’t care about sustainability, but I do want my kids to have a future where they can play in the park and they’re going to see the birds fly by. 

Cool. So that’s my motivator. And so that’s another one of the sort of scenarios that we saw in the program too which obviously we want to emphasise and build on.

Yeah, I think also on that, I’m just talking about around net zero. Net zero can also be a demotivating word. Like it’s difficult to get to net zero. 

Some organisations will see a net zero program and say, that’s not for us because we’re aerospace, that’s not for us. 

We have companies that come to us and say, okay, well, we’re not actively engaged in net zero, but we want to learn more. I mean, we want to be really more, more climate aware, but also we want to have some kind of, know, we know that we need to do better at what we’re doing to be more sustainable. 

So I think the way that you brand things, I know that we’re focusing on net zero for us in the MAP area at the moment, but the way that organisations approach this kind of training, the important things with us always is having a model that we can use rigorously.

That’s the same, doesn’t matter who we go to, it’s reliable, which I think in coaching, in the coaching world, is hit and miss quite often with the approaches, which is why there’s such a high proportion of coaching frameworks that aren’t effective. 

So what we know is that this is hugely effective as a program. It’s replicable and it starts with understanding the client in front of us. So we may have to use different language. 

It may not be all about net zero. It could be about sustainable behaviours. It could be about just connecting with employees. So the branding evolves and changes with the meaning, which is the end part of our model.

Now businesses are typically founded and run because people want to make money. Where does money come into the picture here?

Everywhere. Profitability. We are big also on return on investment. So don’t just think it’s, you know, a consultancy going in and doing a few sessions. Return on investment for us is huge. 

And what we see when we do these approaches is that teams become more productive. They are more proactive. And yes, will.. it’s outlay initially of money to get coaches to go in to go and work with teams, yes, but it has a knock on effect on the profitability of organisations based on more effective communication, retention of staff, staff feel more valued and they retain and there’s a high degree of satisfaction as well when we do feedback, we do interviews with people beyond our course, they are generally more connected and definitely have a higher satisfaction in their job.

And I’ll add to that an extra dimension on top of that, we saw and was, I think, proven, but we had demonstration examples of people in leadership roles who were showing more ability to solve problems. 

You people that we always think are high in the chain or wherever they may be. And the fact is we’re all human, but they unlocked an ability to become better problem solvers through the collaboration and all the other things that Jon’s mentioned.

And when you see that in there, that’s where the productivity gains were. And I think it’d be worthwhile wrapping back up on how the research, what the results of the research, the measurable results show is we were comparing the coaching approach with a training approach. 

Now, I’m not saying that one is better than the other, but the people who went through training, equivalent amount of time and effort spent on training.

They didn’t actually become better problem solvers. They had more knowledge, but not knowing how to use it any better. 

What we enabled was unlocking that ability to think through problems and think. If you put the two together, knowledge and that capability, we got a 7 per cent improvement in cognitive ability. 

You translate as a rough guess, let’s say that’s one day in a fortnight, roughly, of extra productivity, that’s pretty powerful.

Just to add to that, one last thing I promise is, and I’m not going to sit on the fence like Alan, I’m going to give you the researcher’s view. This is significantly more effective than one of the best climate initiative approaches out there. 

So we have data that shows not only did our cohort have a better organisational belonging compared to a control group but also they were more actively engaged and their climate initiatives were ongoing beyond the project. 

So beyond the project we finished and we did a review and they’re still climate active, still generating new projects and ideas to really engage more employees. So it is significantly more effective.

I want to amplify the word belonging because the measures that we used are based on the Inner Development Goals and there’s five dimensions in there. 

Talking to the organisations which were involved in the research, one of the things that came up with them is we want greater level of belonging. 

Jon mentioned it earlier, the staff retention and all of that, but this was tangible. This was something that they really sought and they got what they asked for. So that was a big one for industry.

So just for my understanding here, and I think also for our listeners understanding, so the Net Zero Map, is that a tool for the management, for the leaders, or is it a tool for the individuals, the employees, so to say, at floor level? Or is it both?

Yeah, it’s for the coaches. So it’s for the coaches to go in and deliver in a systematic way through different, through various steps. 

And then the outcome is the acting, like what they do, the behavior is the outcome, the projects are the outcome for the employees. Yes, they feel more connected. They have a better ability to problem solve, better cognitive skills, better connection with other people, better collaboration and better understanding. 

Like self-awareness is the big thing, if you’re a great leader, have a good self-awareness and that’s what this program does.

So I’m just gonna ask some basic questions because what’s the difference between a coach and a consultant and who is the coach working with? Is that the management?

So a consultant will go in and they’ll do, in my eyes anyway, it’s about contracting. So I always think of it as contracting. 

It depends on how many sessions you go in and do. What the problem is, often for what we do is we’ll stay with the organisation beyond the contract and they’ll say to us, can we go again? Because this is great. 

Coaching in my eyes is a mixture of one-to-one sessions, and also group sessions. Now group coaching is very, very difficult to do well. People do it, they don’t do it very well. 

So coaches have the ability to go in and coach individuals and teams. Yes, are they consultants? Kind of, depends on how they’re contracted. And generally we would stay with the organisation beyond and we’ll do check-ins. 

But for this initial project, this was all research based for these organisations, just for the data to try and see whether this approach actually works. So obviously it’s more of a research model than a coaching model, but it is a coaching model in my eyes. Correct me if I’m wrong guys.

I’ll add to you. And I think it’s very, it is situational, like you called out there is in your world. Yeah, it’s from the academic sort of side. And, but for me, for the background in IT consultancy world, where you go in to solve a problem. 

And it was back to what Cherry mentioned earlier, you know, it’s like, where’s which tap do you need to fix? Go and fix that tap. Yeah, but the case, but the pipes bulging over here. No, no, don’t fix that. We want the tap, we want the tap fixed.

And that’s where consulting often falls over because it can often be just that short term, get this done. But adding just adding to that, I think it is very situational. So Jon shared his view and it’s and I’m not disagreeing. I’m 100 per cent agreeing. It’s just very different. Depends where you’re playing.

Yeah, and putting my coaching hat on, because I do both, think coaching is more of a transformational process. So, you know, by creating that meaning and awareness and connecting to people’s individual purpose and also at a team level, you can create the conditions for transformation.

There’s probably something in there about accountability as well. I feel like consultants generally aren’t accountable, whereas coaches absolutely are accountable. 

I mean, it’s just my perception. I generally feel accountable when I’m going in and doing and doing sessions. If I’m a consultant going in doing a one off, I’m doing a one off. I’m not going to have a great deal of impact. 

Hopefully, there’ll be people out there who can take lessons on board and evolve. But, you know, coaching happens over multiple sessions and there is accountability and there’s usually return on investment as well.

Accountability is becoming a very big word after what’s happening in American politics, I think. And it will probably also influence how we do business.

I think that’s a good point and I think that plays into that point that we’ve just been discussing about the differences because one of the, even when I’ve been running, and this is where my butt comes from, even when I’ve been involved in transformation work, I’ve been expected to be the solution more often than not, even when it’s not really what should be expected. 

I’m not saying that’s all the case, but not at all. And that’s, think the situation is. Why are they bringing in the consultants? 

And what you just raised there, Mik, is, I think, a scenario where a lot of times the consultants are brought in because somebody wants the work to be pointed at somebody else. They can take the blame. They can be attributable. 

And therefore, they don’t want to coach there because that means they’ve got to think for themselves and they’ve got to make the call. So it also depends on how strong and brave the leaders are who are bringing us in to help them along this journey.

That’s a valid point. Now, what’s going to happen in the next month? What’s the plan for the net zero MAP?

We actually have some lunch and learn, sort of sessions happening across three continents in March. So in Europe, sort of Europe, and AMEA time zone, as well as the Americas time zone and in APAC. 

So you can head over to our website and register just to learn more and deep dive into the Net Zero MAP framework and also meet the rest of the team as well.

And when you say the website, it is…

It’s netzeromap.org

And we mustn’t forget another event which we’re running. We’ve got the book launch. As Jon mentioned earlier, we’ve been written a chapter in a book around the Inner Development Goals and stories from these sorts of things that we’ve been doing.

Thank you very much about this was all about the net zero MAP and the framework and how people can use that to transform their businesses into a more sustainable business.

So just remember the revolution doesn’t end here. It’s up to each and every one of us to take this knowledge and inspiration from today’s episode and turn that into action.

So whether it’s implementing sustainable practices in your own business or advocating for change in your community, every step counts towards building a better future.

And don’t forget to visit our website as well, businessrevolution.earth for more resources. And you can also go back to the older episodes and see the ways that you can get involved.

And if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, please be sure to subscribe, rate it, let us know how you’re feeling and review it. We would love to hear what your thoughts are, your feedback, and it helps us get a better job.

And thank you for joining us on this journey of transformation. Hopefully together we can revolutionize the way we do business and create a world that’s sustainable for generations to come.

Stay tuned for more insights, inspiration and actionable steps to reshape the way we do business.

So until next time, keep innovating, keep inspiring, and keep pushing for positive change for a brighter tomorrow. I’m Alan.

I’m Mik.

And this is Cherry signing off. The Business Revolution starts with you.

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The Business Revolution Episode 10

This special episode of The Business Revolution offers a sneak peek into our upcoming Melbourne event, “Unlocking your business’ sustainable advantage.” Join us for mini-interviews with three inspiring speakers:

Tune in to gain valuable insights and get inspired to attend the event on 28 November 2024.

Audio version:

Evannah Jayne is the founder and CEO of Terran Industries, an ESG services firm focused on creating impact driven results by strategically implementing sustainability solutions within organisations. Terran Industries accelerates the green transition for businesses, by acting as their dedicated sustainability team. Evannah is a self taught academic in the sustainability and business sectors, collecting certificates from leading universities including The University of Cambridge and University of Copenhagen, as well as completing a course by the United Nations. Evannah is the host of The Green Economy on Import Export TV, a show dedicated to promoting and showcasing sustainable solutions to the International Trade & Logistics sectors. 

Links:

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/evannahjayne

Evannah on TBR Episode 3: businessrevolution.earth/thebusinessrevolution3

Terran Industries stands as your committed sustainability partner, offering tailored, full-circle ESG solutions to meet the unique needs of your organisation. Our role extends beyond conventional strategy & reporting; we actively assist organisations in navigating the ever changing ESG landscape. Together, we orchestrate and implement strategies that align with your existing organisational goals and also contribute towards internationally recognized sustainability goals. At Terran Industries, we empower our clients to drive innovation in their sector and future proof their business by integrating sustainability & climate resilience into their core offering.

Link: terranindustries.com.au

Ishara Fernando is the Philanthropy and Impact Manager at BlueRock, a certified B Corp. Ishara leads their Be BlueRock Foundation and drives the firm’s community impact strategy. She has extensive experience in social enterprise and FinTech, and is passionate about using her skills to create positive change.

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/fernandoishara

Blue Rock: www.bluerock.com.au

Geoff is a LinkedIn Top Voice, leading Global Social Innovator, Entrepreneur, Impact Investor, ESG Consultant and NED with a portfolio career, in 2017 acknowledged in the Top 100 Social Entrepreneurs & Innovators around the world. 

Geoff is the Founder & CEO of ESG&I. and creator of ChatESG ™ leveraging technology & AI for good and also the Founder & Chairman of Impact Investment Fund and Founder of Social Impact Consultancy One10 Group, Director ESG & Program Delivery & Investor at CLARA Energy, Member at Swinburne University TIVCC, NED at Urban Polo Association. 

He is passionate about enabling purpose-driven business on a local and global scale.

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/geoffgourley

ESG&I: esgandi.com.au

Episode 10 links

 𝐓𝐁𝐑 notes and transcript: www.businessrevolution.earth/businessrevolution10

𝐓𝐁𝐑 episode 10 for download: audio

 𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: open.spotify.com/episode

 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭: podcasts.apple.com

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Social media posts
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Cherry Ward (00:00)

Welcome, revolutionaries. My name is Cherry

Alan Taylor (00:03)

I’m Alan.

Mik Aidt (00:04)

And I’m Mik, and together we are the three business musketeers who are doing our best to try and guide you through the evolving landscape of business and sustainability.

Cherry Ward (00:15)

This podcast is made on the lands of the Boon Wurrung, Juggera and Turrbal, and Wadawurrung people to whom we pay our respect and acknowledgement. 

Alan Taylor (00:24)

And this is a special episode of The Business Revolution, bringing you mini-interviews with three incredible speakers who will be featured on our upcoming Melbourne event on the 28th of November.

Cherry Ward (00:35)

Join us as we get a sneak peek into the insights and inspirations that we’ll be sharing at the event, which focuses on helping businesses navigate the exciting world of ESG and sustainability and upcoming changes.

Mik Aidt (00:50)

In this Business Revolution podcast, we are on a mission. We admit it. We intend to prove to the world that sustainability isn’t just good for the planet. It’s also good for our health, for our pockets, for businesses and for the economy of the businesses.

Cherry Ward (01:09)

So whether you’re a business owner, a climate advocate, or simply curious about the future of our planet, you won’t want to miss this episode of The Business Revolution.

Alan Taylor (01:20)

And so first up, have Evannah Jayne from Terran Industries. Evannah, welcome back to The Business Revolution. Obviously, for those of you who’ve been following us, Evannah has been in quite a wonderful talk once before.

Evannah is the founder and CEO of Terran Industries, an ESG services firm with 30 employees globally, focusing on creating impact driven results by strategically implementing sustainability solutions within organisations.

Evannah, tell us a little bit about what you’ll be speaking about at the Melbourne event.

Evannah Jayne (01:56)

Thank you. Good to be back. I will be talking about sustainability and climate risk and how it is essential for businesses and hoping to be able to inspire people in the room and explore what climate risk is for business, how it affects businesses throughout supply chains, emissions, and even the social and governance side of sustainability and how it affects the business as a whole.

Mik Aidt (02:24)

And in short, what is the risk?

Evannah Jayne (02:27)

Risks can be very tailored to the individual organisation. Most common one we see today is in supply chains. Plastic is a common example. It’s an everyday material, but it’s also made from fossil fuels, which is a finite resource. 

Everyone looks at fossil fuels and how they’re producing emissions and disrupting the energy sector, but they’re also very common raw material and everyday products. And sooner or later, that raw material is going to run out.

So if you want to have a functioning supply chain in the future, you need to switch to a more resilient supply chain and material source.

Mik Aidt (03:04)

And is that even possible?

Evannah Jayne (03:06)

It is. There’s hundreds and hundreds of bio materials growing into the market today. Most common one, anything that’s made out of plastic can be made out of seaweed. It’s an incredible material. Grows really, really fast. 

Kelp is the most common one. It is incredible to see what products you can make from seaweed. And it’s a great selling point for businesses too. You can sell a little product and go, hey, it’s made of seaweed. And that’s a really interesting point for consumers.

Alan Taylor (03:38)

So what are you looking forward to most about the event?

Evannah Jayne (03:43)

I’m looking forward to meeting all the excited people who are there and sharing the knowledge that I’ve built over the last five, 10 years in the sustainability sector. There’s so much, well, as one thing I like to say is knowledge is power and I want to be able to share that knowledge.

Alan Taylor (04:02)

That’s wonderful. I think that’s what we all value is when somebody else can provide that knowledge and experience to help us along and that will help businesses. Like you say, there’s alternatives. So finding those alternatives, which will be beneficial for their business and the planet and then business will go on for a long time.

Evannah Jayne (04:21)

Absolutely. And there’s thousands of solutions currently in existence across all areas of sustainability and climate. 

We ourselves have documented over 5,000 existing solutions in our database. One of the things we do with our clients as well is helping them navigate the existing solutions out there. Most of the time you don’t know what you’re looking for unless you know what to search for. 

You Google ‘sustainability’, there’s too many millions of results. How do you navigate it?

So we’re documenting the ecosystem. We’ve pre-vetted over 5,000 result solutions, which we’re happy to promote to our clients as well.

Cherry Ward (05:00)

Wow, that’s fantastic. And I know in our sort of pre podcast recording discussions, you’re mentioning, you know, product that you’re developing around risk, this might be relevant to, to some of the, you know, the audience that’s attending and also listening as well. 

Do you want to share and give us a little bit of, I guess, a preview of what you’re working on?

Evannah Jayne (05:22)

Sure. So we’ve just updated our new climate risk measurement framework. It’s across seven pillars. It covers all areas of sustainability, climate risk, environment, supply chains across ESG and corporate and governance as well. So we’re excited to launch this new model and we’re hoping to hopefully beta test it with a few people at the event. So we’re very excited to launch that.

Cherry Ward (05:49)

That’s fantastic. I’m keen to learn more about it as well as, I’m sure, all of the attendees and listeners as well. What’s one key takeaway that you hope the audience will gain from our event in Melbourne?

Evannah Jayne (06:04)

The economic benefits of sustainability. A lot of people see sustainability, especially if they don’t come from the sector, as something that’s expensive and burdensome. But it’s actually extremely cost effective and by implementing sustainability solutions today, you’re future-proofing your business and reducing economic risk as well as sustainability risk.

So the economic advantages of sustainability is something that is hugely overlooked. So hopefully we’ll be able to raise more awareness around that area.

Alan Taylor (06:40)

I find that a fascinating topic to cover. You’re turning a lot of preconceptions on their head. This is going to cost me a fortune. I’m going to be in trouble if we try and do this. We don’t want to do that. 

We need to drill down now and do whatever we’re still doing. And you’re sharing these long-term gains.

Do you think there’s any short-term gains that companies can get?

Evannah Jayne (07:01)

I would say hundreds, yes. It depends so much on what the actual company is doing at the time. Short-term gains can range from immediate wins in especially the energy sector, for example. 

Yes, installing solar panels, you can be completely removed from the grid if you install battery technology as well. And the advancements in… battery technology are huge. 

There’s no reason not to install an on-site battery. And that’s something that you completely remove for Alliance from the grid, your energy bills will drop drastically, all from one simple investment of installation. 

So that’s a very quick win that people can do. And if you want to even profit from that, depending on where you’re located, and this will be a very geographical dependent thing, not only on physical geography, but geography around who your neighbours are. 

There’s one thing that can actually be done is create a microgrid within your community or within your block. If you’re friendly enough with your neighbours, you own the battery, you can sell power to your neighbours and make money. It removes them from the grid as well.

Alan Taylor (08:13)

So exciting spaces, low hanging fruit. Sometimes you might need a little bit of a step ladder to find those fruit that you mentioned, if it’s a little bit complicated, but the winds can be huge. So that’s fantastic. Thank you.

Cherry Ward (08:25)

Next up we have Ishara Fernando from Blue Rock. Ishara, welcome to the business revolution. 

Ishara is the philanthropy and impact manager at Blue Rock, a certified B Corp. She leads the B Blue Rock Foundation and drives the firm’s community impact strategy. Ishara has extensive experience in social enterprise and fintech and is passionate about using her skills to create positive change.

Welcome, Isharah.

Ishara Fernando (08:55)

Thank you, very glad to be here.

Alan Taylor (09:00)

So Ishara, what unique perspective will you bring to the Melbourne event?

Ishara Fernando (09:07)

I’d say probably newer than the other panel members to the sustainability space and learning about climate action and the nature world.

I’d say that my experience has been more so in social impact and charity giving in the philanthropy space. 

And so for me, I’m probably closer to a lot of the audience in terms of learning all of the jargon, unlearning the jargon. So many acronyms in this sector to learn and unlearn. 

And I suppose for me, it’s about putting this into practice in our business. It’s around engaging our stakeholders, trying to affect change, seeing what we can do as a medium sized business here in Australia. 

And so very much around, I guess, learning and the journey of learning and putting theory into practice and giving it a go and getting started.

Alan Taylor (10:01)

That is wonderful because as you said, you’re closer to the audience. So you, but you’ve also gone through it or you’re going through it. And so you can bring that real world, the other side of the coin to the other people in the panel.

Mik Aidt (10:13)

Ishara, what motivated you in the first place, starting this sustainability journey?

Ishara Fernando (10:21)

So as a certified B Corp business, company really believes in doing things differently and using business as a force for good. 

For me personally, having lived in Berlin, like I’ve seen the secular economy over there, I’ve seen a lot of, I guess, positive change happening out of Germany and in Europe. 

And I’d say these are the ones that we… look to globally who are ahead of the change than here in Australia. And at least Australia is ahead of the US, but we’ve got a way to go here in Australia for sure. 

So I’d say, yeah, I mean, what I see, I work with families and businesses who are funding different causes that really matter to them. And almost all are worried about the planet and worried about nature and worried about what legacy they’re leaving behind for their children and for the next generations.

And so we really do see a lot of despair and a lot of, I guess, restlessness around what people are experiencing and seeing on the news cycles in their backyards and around the world. 

And so there’s a lot of motivation from a number of people, but often an overwhelm and anxiety around what to do. And so one of the great quotes that I always hear is around action being the antidote to despair.

So taking action can very much be that antidote to the despair that we see with climate change. So as a business, yeah, we would very much like to be part of the change and not the problem. 

And we would very much like to share our learnings along the way. It’s very much around progress and not perfection. We’re nowhere near close to being done and together collectively, we can make change happen.

Cherry Ward (12:08)

That’s great. And I know Blue Rock has been involved and hosted a few events like this. I’m interested to learn from your perspective, why events like this are important for businesses, especially those that are small medium, they may not have a big sustainability team.

Ishara Fernando (12:24)

Yeah, most won’t have a sustainability person at all. And so it’s often, you are your operations manager or might sit within a risk or a finance function, or it might just be a few passionate eco warriors within the business wanting to affect change and use their business as a force for good. 

And so we at Blue Rock really find it important to partner with the experts and to bring the experts to our business owners in our ecosystem to continue to learn.

We learn from one another, we learn from mistakes, and that’s how we can, I guess, accelerate the change that we want to make by learning from one another. 

We hosted a similar event around environmental sustainability in March during B Corp month, and the interest from our network was really great to see, and very much with that curiosity of what do we do, how do we get started? 

We need help, and we want to make a change. And so that’s why it’s really important to us to continue to help everyone look at how to create positive impact on the community, both on people and planet.

Alan Taylor (13:35)

One thing resonated in me there is there’s so much of the personal connection you shared in there and where that ties in and how that ties to business. adding to that is that the duality of you’ve got going and getting the experts in the room, getting the help, being able to call for that, but also mistakes get made along the way. 

And I think that’s another thing that if we can accept that a little bit more, we can make a lot of progress too. So that’s wonderful, Cheers. Thank you.

Ishara Fernando (14:04)

Yeah, now we see that in the startup world, right? Fail fast and share your learnings. 

So why not do that across different industries and across different things that we’re trying to do within our businesses? 

I have a number of business owners that want to make change and life is busy and costs are restrained, but what can we do? What are the little things that each individual employee, each individual household, each individual business, what are the actions that we can all take?

So that together we can make a collective action.

Mik Aidt (14:36)

What are you hoping people will take with them home after the event in Melbourne?

Ishara Fernando (14:40)

I guess one thing that I’d love for the audience to take away is the feeling of hope that they can take action and that together we can all take an action and really make a difference. 

I’d say that overwhelm is strong with a lot of information, acronyms, jargon, this is the right way, this is the wrong way, all of that that’s out there. And I really hope that everyone can walk away on the 28th November with a sense of, I know where to get started and I know I’m going to give it a go.

Cherry Ward (15:11)

That’s fantastic. Thank you, Isharah.

Mik Aidt (15:16)

Our third guest today in this special episode where we’re focusing on our event on the 28th of November in Melbourne, we have Geoff Gourley, who in my opinion is a true champion of purpose driven business and also a social innovator. 

Someone who I remember, Geoff, 10 years ago, you were organising these green drinks events in Melbourne and you have since then become a founder and a CEO of something very interesting called ESG&I, which is… you’ll tell us, I hope, what it is, but I know that it’s a community of hundreds of people coming together around this interest in what is ESG and what can ESG do for my business, exploring ESG. 

And then even combining that with AI, artificial intelligence, something that should be very useful for businesses. So we’re excited to have you on board in the Business Revolution podcast.

Geoff, welcome!

Geoff Gourley (16:12)

Fantastic. Thanks, Mik. That’s great! And I really appreciate connecting and reconnecting with you after many, many years in the sustainability movement. 

I guess giving the listeners a bit of context is probably back in the early 2000s, I really started to get into sustainability, particularly in the built environment where I was working professionally. 

And we started Sustainability Drinks Australia as a way to get people connected and networking with like-minded individuals. And that was really some early days, I think, in sustainability. 

And then 2008, I did the Al Gore Climate Project Leadership and also the Center for Sustainability Leadership Program. So that really got me entrenched in sustainability and being passionate about it. 

And I guess that’s where my whole purpose has come from on that journey over many years now and being able to create my own consulting business and helping others on that journey as well, whether they’re an ASX entity or a small medium enterprise, which is where my focus has been more recently. 

I still can’t believe that we’re banging on about sustainability and climate change now, as I would have hoped we had a lot more traction and a lot more action in that space. But I think we have made good grounds and there is a lot more focus on that.

I sort of moved into the ESG space around four or five years ago and started researching what challenges business had. A very dynamic regulatory environment as well. 

So we’ve got new laws coming in here in Australia, which is the mandatory disclosure bill, which was passed, which is now law. And that is the Australian Sustainability Reporting Standards, which kicks in for very large entities from the 1st of January. 

What I’m seeing there is a real… trickle-down effect, which will become a waterfall in a year or two, is these large suppliers that now have a mandatory obligation around reporting. That’s filtering through their supply chain. Their supply chain tends to be medium-sized suppliers. 

They don’t have the resources. They don’t have a sustainability team or a director of sustainability. So they find it really challenging to navigate the requirements.

And whilst it’s not mandatory for the suppliers at this stage, unless they take that criteria, the big customers we’re seeing just pushing that requirement down. 

And that’s where we’re seeing an opportunity as well to support those organisations, to educate them, empower them, inspire them to take action, which at the end of the day, I think makes for a resilient and competitive business going forward. We have had some recent instances where these large suppliers, their contracts won’t be renewed unless they are meeting the requirements of the customer. And so that’s a real critical trigger that we’ve seen in the last, probably two months since the bill passed.

Mik Aidt (19:09)

So if you don’t want to get left behind, be there on the 28th November and hear Geoff talk about this. Geoff, give us a little bit, like, a warm-up to what are you going to be telling people? What are you inspired about? And what is ESG&I?

Geoff Gourley (19:24)

Yeah, fantastic, Mik, look, I’m really looking forward to the event. I think it’s great to get back face to face. Businesses is still done, you know, person to person and having that human connection interaction is really, really important. 

You know, I’ve been in business development and sales and trying to help people for many years. And I find that that’s the quickest way is to just connect with people in a face to face environment, understand their needs and their challenges, and then have a look at how I might be able to support them on that journey. 

Yeah, look, I think the ASRS has been a big trigger. ESG more broadly is a focus for investors, for customers, for your stakeholders. It’s really not a nice to have anymore. 

It’s a competitive requirement, I think, in business these days. And you can start small and you can take steps and you can start on that journey and talk about what you are doing and what you’re going to do, as long as it’s in the right sort of way. 

And I think, you know, being able to come to an event where you hear about the topics of the day strategies on how to navigate, how to make a quick start, how to get through any roadblocks. 

We find trying to demonstrate the business case for ESG within an organisation can be a bit tricky and being able to get the C suite on board that may not be right behind this ESG stuff, being able to influence them and say, hey, listen, here’s the business case of why it’s really important to do the sustainable actions, to adopt ASG. 

And these are the benefits that will come over time. So, yeah, I really would love to see people there and share with them some of the insights around that and saves a bit of pain for you as well.

Mik Aidt (21:07)

And just about your own company there or this project which is multifaceted in some way ESG&I. Just explain even the name ESG &I.

Geoff Gourley (21:17)

It’s very interesting. I’ve got a long history of naming businesses after what they do. So we do environmental social governance and I always think impact is an important part to have. 

And I was surprised when I was able to get the trademark for ESG&I. And so we started as a consulting business back in early January this year, 2024. 

I’ve spent the last three years researching and developing skills and expertise around AI. And what I quickly came across when I was working, using AI as a co-pilot on live client engagements is, it’s amazing. It can increase my productivity. can enable me to gather information really quickly for clients, be able to give them the information to make informed decisions, but in a really fast turnaround. 

And I guess when I created ChatESG, the idea is all about democratising access to ESG expertise because you know, we can’t all afford big four consultants to come and solve all our problems. 

I created these three models where people can access ChatESG and do it themselves. They very much like ChatGPT, you get a subscription, you have a very great library of ESG specific knowledge and expertise at your fingertips. 

And that can help guide you in some education and some knowledge building. And it can help build your early strategies, roadmaps, action plans.

The other model is, know, do it with me where we work with clients leveraging AI to deliver solutions for their challenges or issues. And then the other model is do it for me where our customers say, listen, you know, great, you’re using AI, that’s fantastic. 

Can you just go and do it all for us and take away our pain? And so we’ve got these three different models and I think really importantly for the SME market is being able to give them early access to this massive specific knowledge bank of ESG information and sustainability information I’ve been building over 20 years. Having access to that is something that a ChatGPT doesn’t give you. 

It’s that private intellectual property that I’ve been developing, working with clients and having a knowledge level of that added on top of ChatGPT. So it’s called a rag. So it’s retrieval augmented generation. 

And basically think of it as a very specific personalised library on ESG information that you’re able to search and ask queries of and it’ll pull out information. It’s really relevant, really proven, know, this is strategies, practices that have been put into play every single day for my clients. And so get access to that innovation and knowledge.

And AI has just been a game changer, I think. I love using it. Obviously, you’ve got to keep control of it and you’ve got to double check all these different elements, but I’ve tried to really refine it and spent the last nine months building ChatESG. 

We use it internally, privately at the moment, but we’ve created a wait list for the public release, which we’re expecting that product to come out around March next year. So really exciting time to be in the… ESG and AI space.

Mik Aidt (24:36)

Fantastic. And if people want to ask you questions, they can simply show up in Melbourne at the meeting on the 28th November and we’ll put all the information about the details on that in the show notes.

Geoff Gourley (24:50)

Absolutely, love questions and don’t be scared. A very good friend of mine who unfortunately passed away earlier this year was Geoff Robinson, an absolute guru in the sustainability space. 

And Geoff was well known for always asking the first question. And so I would take his, I guess, approach and encourage anyone to be the first to ask the first question. 

Also at the event, we’re going to give you a QR code which will give you free access to the ESG&I Community of Practice. 

This is the membership portal or community that you talking about before, Mik, where we’re encouraging people to come together in this community, share knowledge, they can access a whole bunch of free resources, tools, educational content, connect with both like-minded businesses in the SME market, or connect with consultants and service providers that can help them through their problems. 

Yeah, it’s always gonna be a free type of environment, just really to support people. At the moment, we’ve got about 160, 170 over the last four to six weeks, and we are looking to expand next year into the US and the UK. So this is just the sort of first iteration, if you like, the beta version, but it’s going great and people are engaging on there. 

And you’ve got a place where you can market or pitch and you can also connect with people as well. Yeah, it’s fantastic. So we’ll give everyone free access to that on the.

Alan Taylor (26:21)

Thank you for sharing that, Geoff. It’s awesome because it also demonstrates what we’re all about, what all of us are about. 

It’s not about competition, it’s about sharing, getting that community to co-create, co-help each other and do that and that’s wonderful. Thank you.

Geoff Gourley (26:37)

Yeah, it is Alan. I think having that mindset is pretty typical of people operating in the sort of for-purpose area. I work a lot with social enterprises as well, Indigenous based businesses, disability enterprises. 

So a lot of people in this space really get that mindset. It’s about collaborating, trying to help everyone in the sector where you’ve got some expertise. And yeah, it’s not about competing. 

It’s about seeing an opportunity to collaborate. We’re also doing that in the AI space. We’re working with some freelance consultants in the philanthropic area to see how AI can be used in philanthropy. 

And that also helps companies meet their corporate social responsibility goals, or it be about how they provide funding for social impact. 

I’ve just written a piece recently about AI and shared value projects and you know, we’ve tested that on a large client in South Australia about analysing all the data that came out of a year long shared value project. 

So it was fascinating to see and sometimes that’s really hard to do measure the and quantify the impact from these shared value projects. So I was really excited to get into that and yeah, it’s been fantastic.

Cherry Ward (27:55)

That’s great. One last question from me, Geoff. I know in our pre recording preamble, you mentioned you’re up for an award tonight. Can you tell the audience a little bit about, know, what you’re nominated for?

Geoff Gourley (28:07)

Yeah, thanks, Cherry. It was interesting. I think about 12 months ago when chat GPT really came to the fore, I got excited about that. 

I’ve always been trying to think of a way to clone myself as a consultant. I think chat AI, ChatGPT and AI really gave me a bit of a tool there. So I started using it and I got pretty poor results. I was thinking, wow, this is not necessarily all it cracked up to be.

And then I realised I was a problem. So I had to go and get some education. went and did some certificate courses. I can highly recommend the AIM AI as my co-pilot course, delivered through Australian Institute of Management. 

That’s what I went and did. Fantastic. Unlocked all these secrets and tools and resources of AI specifically. And then what I did was I started to practise, practice, practice every day using it, using online client engagements and I found a complete change. The output’s incredibly high. 

I don’t get many hallucinations, if any, now, what they call the sort of errors coming from AI. And then when I basically created my AI agents, I’ve got a virtual consulting team that I’ve created. 

And I also have this rag library of ESG materials. That’s been a real game changer. And I was really thankful to be recognised as a finalist in the Australian AI Awards, which is actually on tonight here in Sydney. 

And I’m nominated as a finalist in the AI Consultant of the Year, particularly with a focus around SME. And so I’m pretty excited about that. 

It’s very competitive and I think, you know, just humbled to be in the final. But of course, like most people, it would be great to get an award. It’s been a long time since the sports day. So a business award would be always handy to have on the shelf in the pool room.

Mik Aidt (29:57)

Fingers crossed from here, Geoff, certainly also, kudos to you and great acknowledgement for speeding up the process because we all know that we are behind at the moment, certainly in Australia, when it comes to dealing with the real danger of a climate breakdown. 

And hopefully, if humans were better at working with AI, we could speed up the process somewhat. And you’re right into that.

Geoff Gourley (30:24)

Yeah, absolutely. I think what I’ve seen both in the consulting side of business, but also with one of our major projects, which is the Clara Energy Green Hydrogen project, you know, we’ve been able to use AI in some aspects of that as well. 

And in fact, we’ve created an 800 acre biodiversity stewardship area. And we’ve been able to analyse so much of the flora and fauna data that came out of on-field surveys and mapping and massive databases from the government and get a really clear idea on the types of really valuable biodiversity that we have on that site, which overall is about two and a half thousand acres. 

And we’ll be creating a protected habitat alongside agrivoltaic. So we’ll have a PV farm with sheep running around underneath, keeping the grass clear and low and it helps a better yield for the sheep as well. 

So it’s about making a difference around climate change, but also acknowledging that yes, we do need to do developments, but they’ve got to be responsible, sustainable. We need to protect the habitat. At the same time, we’re creating renewable energy and zero emissions fuels. 

We are particularly creating a great hydrogen as a diesel replacement. And when you look at Europe, you know, they have banned diesel trucks from 2035. And so that will flow into Australia and we need to have a solution. We can’t stop the trucks because we can’t survive. 

We need to move around food and products and goods and services. And so we’ve got to really rapidly come up with these innovative solutions. 

And I really think forward thinking, AI, unlocking that investment capital, impact investment, investment around natural capital, really important to progress some of these projects. And again, going back to 2008, I think

We were probably talking a lot and maybe not taking enough action. And now I really see that we are taking a lot of action, which has been great to see, but we’re still a long way off from turning back the clock, I guess, on climate change.

Alan Taylor (32:29)

One of the little things you said in there really resonates with me: the, and it’s almost like the collaboration, but a variation on that theme that we talked about earlier – is that win-win, you can put the solar panels above the ground. So it’s better for the sheep, better for the, you know, it’s a win-win. Get the solar, you get the better, actually apparently it’s better for the ground itself because it stops it getting scorched, especially in the summer. 

So yeah, this idea that we can use anything for two different benefits or more is very much against our current model and it’s maybe a bit too scary for some people but it’s great when it’s demonstrated.

Geoff Gourley (33:03)

Yeah, absolutely. I think a really key aspect of what we did well was community engagement. So we’re in a regional area in New South Wales on the Hume Highway. 

We approached the farmer, we approached the community. We said, look, we see a challenge here. We see an opportunity. We want to make sure that we’re doing it in a responsible way that creates economic prosperity for that region, creates jobs. 

We’ve actually partnered with the TAFE and registered Aboriginal parties in the area. So we’re creating some employment pathways for the local Indigenous in the solar space. That’s providing them with long-term employment. 

We also have an accommodation strategy where we need some temporary accommodation for workers. It’s a very remote area. And then that housing, once that’s been finished with for the project, that turns over to long-term accommodation for the region. 

And so again, that supports tourism, job creation, better housing opportunities in the area, which is sort of between Wagga and Gundagai. So again, when you just open up your mind and have that shared value, shared outcomes, you get all these win-win-wins across the board, as you’re saying.

Cherry Ward (34:16)

And that’s a wrap for today’s episode of The Business Revolution. We hope you enjoy diving deep into the world of business and sustainability with us and our guests who will be joining us at the Melbourne event.

Mik Aidt (34:29)

And if you live in Victoria or near Melbourne, we hope to see you on the 28th of November. 

So you can learn together with us from our three experts here on how to transform your business into being a more sustainable business.

Alan Taylor (34:43)

And of course, if you enjoyed this episode today, register for a Melbourne event on the website, businessrevolution.earth. 

Please be aware, this is only a cheap event. It’s only $30. And we’re not trying to make profit, but any little bit of extra cash we make, 50 per cent of that will be going to 1% for the Planet. So we’re feeding back into the ecosystem.

Mik Aidt (35:07)

And also remember if you liked what you have been listening to today in The Business Revolution podcast, it helps us a lot if you not only subscribe to the podcast, but also you can rate it and review it and so on, because all that interactivity really helps us reach more listeners out there. 

And in that way, collectively, we are amplifying our impact.

Cherry Ward (35:28)

And thank you for joining us on this journey of transformation. I believe that together we can revolutionise the way we do business and create a world that’s sustainable for generations to come.

Alan Taylor (35:40)

Until next time, keep innovating, keep inspiring, and keep pushing for that positive change for a brighter tomorrow. I’m Alan.

Cherry Ward (35:49)

I’m Cherry.

Mik Aidt (35:51)

And I’m Mik, signing off. The business revolution starts with you.

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The Business Revolution Episode 9

In this ninth episode of The Business Revolution, we venture to Europe to explore the critical intersection of leadership, technology, and sustainability in a globalised world.

Join us for a thought-provoking discussion with Robin Weninger, Managing Director of the Global Institute of Leadership and Technology, and Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl, a professional board member working in the multilateralism space.

Audio version:

Tune into learn more about:

Tune in to gain a global perspective on the evolving landscape of business and sustainability.

Alyssa is an entrepreneur at heart and a seasoned board member by experience. Alyssa has reimagined innovation frameworks and built bridges across global teams, navigating the intertwined paths of global governance, climate, conflict, and connectivity.

Alyssa is the founder of BLYSS Group. In 2009, BLYSS began as a seed of change planted in the diverse landscapes of Ecuador, the Philippines, and Papua New Guinea. From these seeds grew a social enterprise that not only farms sustainable cacao but turns it into an award-winning premium chocolate – a delight so profound, it earned a stellar 93/100 from independent evaluators, gracing Europe with the most exquisite and priciest chocolate retailed at €30 per 50g. 

Alyssa Jade doesn’t just lead BLYSS; she serves on various multilateral and multinational boards, tirelessly weaving sustainability and innovation into the fabric of our future.

Evidence-based sustainable business and science for investment and  innovation: BLYSS GmbH

Current programme: Vaka Pasifika Fellowship, Fiji.

Current supervisory: Board Chair World Fish Malaysia & Supervisory Board Member, TAKKT AG Germany

Current paper:Science and Digitalization for a Better Future

Robin Weninger, Co-Founder and Managing Director of the executive education company Global Institute of Leadership and Technology (GILT), is committed to assisting organisations in addressing the multifaceted challenges of the 21st century. His series “Leadership In Times of Uncertainty” and his initiatives on “The Infinite Organisation” have positioned him as a sought-after speaker and educator in the domain of leadership and technology. Robin’s explorations into exponential technologies, such as Artificial Intelligence, Quantum Technologies, and Blockchain, has allowed him to share invaluable insights at many conferences, as well as offer immersive sessions and workshops that address the ever-changing business landscape.

→ www.blyss.group

→ www.robinweninger.com

→ gilt.global

Episode 9 links

 𝐓𝐁𝐑 notes and transcript: www.businessrevolution.earth/businessrevolution9

𝐓𝐁𝐑 episode 9 for download: audio

 𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: open.spotify.com/episode

 𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭: podcasts.apple.com

 𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞: video

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Alan Taylor (00:00)

Welcome revolutionaries, my name is Alan.

Mik Aidt (00:03)

And I’m Mik.

Cherry Ward (00:05)

And I’m Cherry, together we are the three business musketeers who will guide you through the evolving landscape of business and sustainability.

Mik Aidt (00:15)

This podcast is made on the lands of the Boon Wurrung, the Yoghurt and Turabal and the Wadawurrung people to whom we pay our respects and acknowledgement. And in today’s episode, we are moving from Australia up to Europe.

Alan Taylor (00:32)

As businesses increasingly recognise that their success is intertwined with well-being of society and across the globe, businesses are not just local. Today we’ll explore how a business can create a more inclusive and equitable future across the world.

Cherry Ward (00:48)

So today we’ll explore global issues and multilateralism.

Mik Aidt (00:53)

And if this isn’t the first time that you’re listening to The Business Revolution podcast, then you know already that we are on a mission here. We are all about proving to the world that sustainability isn’t just good for the planet. It’s good for our health, our pockets, and for our businesses. For the economy.

Alan Taylor (01:12)

So whether you’re a business owner, a climate advocate, or simply curious about the future of our planet, you don’t wanna miss this episode of The Business Revolution.

Cherry Ward (01:22)

And that’s why we’re thrilled to have Robin and Alyssa with us today. Robin is the Managing Director of the Global Institute of Leadership and Technology, and Lyss is the Professional Board Member in the Multilateralism space. Welcome to The Business Revolution, Lyss and Robin. Can you start by telling us a little bit about what you’re currently working on?

Robin Weninger (01:44)

Great to be here. Thank you for the invitation and happy to discuss this wonderful topics that are lying in front of us here. So I mean, you pretty much summed it up from the title of the company. So we’re working on leadership development and technology implementation. And one big part of technology here is that it’s not just the techie part of it, but also the non-technical aspects. What can we gain from technology, how can we use it to create a better planet, whatever that might mean. We will explore this later.

Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl (02:16)

Excellent. What I’m currently working on is three things at the moment. Number one, as chair of the International Centre for Living Aquatic Marine Resources, we’re looking at how fish breeding and breeding of marine resources can be as sustainable as possible in the global context, as well as what role aquatic foods has either in terms of new materials, new goods, and its symbiotic relationship with fish. On the other side, as a board member of a large German corporation, we’re looking at our sustainability footprint in industrial plastics and classic product development in terms of how do we really move forward in this world with ensuring our value chain is fit, strong, representing our values, solid in the current and future geopolitical environment, which is today, September 24. We don’t know how we’ll be.

And the third thing I’m engaged with is the United Nations in the Pacific Island region, specifically looking at developing governance around transparency and accountability in public finance management, especially important in the Pacific Islands as they are facing a very existential threat regarding their safety, security, population and livelihoods. So what is the mechanism today that we can use to work together with civil service organisations, NGOs, science and the government about expenditure for these populations’ future developments.

Alan Taylor (03:39)

I’m particularly intrigued by that last point around the Pacific region. saw in today’s news how the Indonesian government has lost a court case for not actually creating strong enough targets from 2031 onwards. And so that’s the people fighting back in those countries. So it’s quite an interesting dynamic that will be changing there, I’m sure.

I’m going to start with this… we get into a very big minefield there – so I’m going to pull away at that point and actually go to Robin. And I’m curious coming from a tech background and you’ve talked about technology and sustainability and your business name being leadership and technology. Can you always define what that technology and leadership are in respect to sustainability?

Robin Weninger (04:33)

I love this question because it’s already a fire that we’re now putting here into this room because there’s like so many definitions out there. But I think it’s a really valuable question because in my perspective, the definition itself is not that important. It’s rather the understanding of each other what we mean when we’re actually using these kinds of words. 

So my background is actually I’m a typical business school graduate, but I was always really frustrated with that aspect that in my whole life at business school, I’ve barely touched on any technology topics. I always found it like super, super cool what you can actually do with that. And I think, like, all these buzzwords that we have heard over the last years, be it digital transformation, be it industry 4.0, you name it, was always like driven from the business world, but actually nobody was talking about this in this whole context. 

And that really got me onto this track of saying like, hey, why not combine leadership slash business education with technology and make it more accessible and built the bridge between those two disciplines because it turned out that a lot of those things that we’re referring to in traditional business education, also in traditional businesses called management is actually partly being replaced by technology. And we are seeing this is going on and on and on and on. 

So more of those things that used to be done as managers are now being done or automated by technology. So I think it’s crucial that in this world, we need to understand technology and the implications of the technology. It’s not that everybody needs to understand all these algorithms and how these infrastructure technologies work, but the implications to understand on the business modules, on the roles, on the organisational setup, I think is really, really crucial.

And I think there’s a really big gap in traditional education and also in the ongoing development of executives and organisations. Then for the leadership part, I personally define it and within our organisation, we define it as the activation of a group towards a goal. And this is quite a neutral statement, but it has quite a lot of interesting things in there. So first of all, it’s the question of a goal. 

That’s where many people already struggle. So what’s our goal? Why are we working on something particular? How do we break down this goal that it is actually something that we can work on? 

You mentioned, Alan, the 2031 targets. I think that’s great… A great example. So defining something for the year 2031 is nice, but it doesn’t really help you if you can’t break it down to what we actually do today, tomorrow and the next week in an executable way that people can actually work on. And then the two other aspects, a group of people, that’s also the next challenge. So what’s the group? What are your stakeholders? What are your intersections? Whom do you need to take onto this journey? And then the last part is how do you activate these?

And activation is all about doing something. So you need three things for leadership. You need a goal. You need to break it down to a certain degree. That’s the first big challenge. You need a group of people. I mean, you can lead yourself to a goal. That’s OK. But you probably want to have a group of people around you that are contributing, that are aligned, and that are working towards that. And then you need the activation part. And all of this is neutral, because we’re never judging if your goal is good or bad, because we’re living in such a time where so much uncertainty and ambiguity is out there that I think it’s really hard to say like, Alan, your goals are great and Jerry, your goals are bad or vice versa. 

I think we need to really come to this meaningful discussion and say like, okay, why have you chosen this particular goals and why are you working towards that? What are your assumptions for choosing that? And then we can have meaningful discussions. And I think that’s where we can start creating.

Alan Taylor (08:16)

What you’re referring to there is the binary thinking that we tend to have is right or wrong, left or right. And yeah, there’s lots of right, there’s lots of correct, there’s lots of ways we can go forward. And I think I love the point that we don’t want to go on our own. We might be able to get there on our own, but just like a, let’s say a sprinter or a long distance runner in the Olympics, they don’t get there on their own. They might be doing it on the day, but it’s a team effort. Yeah, that’s how I, I don’t know, that’s how it resonates with me. So thank you.

Cherry Ward (08:50)

Yeah, it really resonated what you were saying, Robin, with me around that activation. And the question for both of you is, you know, how can you help leaders activate and also both in public and private sectors so that they can accelerate their transition to a future worth living? You know, I think it’s beyond 2031. I know, 2031 is just around the corner. So looking further afield.

Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl (09:17)

I would say there’s three aspects for me that stand out. One is an element of long -termism, because in the end, activation, it’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon. So long-termism, guess openness for adaptive pathways, as opposed to what Alan was saying before, the black and white, and I would say the collaboration. 

So in terms of long -termism, when in a German corporation I was working at, when we had our sustainability goals as compliance oriented in terms of this amount of plastics and that supply chain transparency law and this national goal that according to our size of organisation, we have to report them. 

When we were compliance oriented, it was a short term tick and flick kind of accounting oriented approach to sustainability. And we weren’t growing our business with that. We were submitting reports. From a long-termism perspective, when we sat down with the team and discussed, what is, how is our organisation going to grow? Is there anything in the sustainability field that will help us grow our business? It could be material science, it could be our supply chain, it could be our distribution strategy, it can be our waste management strategy. 

Anyway, but basically, where’s the gold? Where’s the business we’re missing? Because we’re not looking for business within sustainability. That turned our product sales, percentage of sustainable product sales from 1 % to 19.8 % in one and a half years. And that’s for still just operating in the industrial countries, but that’s an industrial plastics organisation across solid 16 countries. And that was the difference between thinking compliance to thinking growth. So I think, and that’s an element of long-termism that’s in there.

And it went from being dry muesli, you have to chew, to a business to grow. And then we activated what naturally is amazing. The procurement team and sales team and product development team are trained to look for. We were encouraged to dig for the gold rather than a race to the bottom for compliance. So I think that’s one aspect. Another example I’d like to talk about is adaptive pathways, which is recognising a systems thinking perspective.

On the interconnected nature of things. have a solid history in agriculture. And if there’s anything I know from agriculture, which I would love the modern business environment to know, is everything is connected. The water we use, the soil, the seed, the machinery, the livelihoods of the people, is all interconnected. And sometimes we just focus on one idea, what agriculture did poorly in the last 50 years and create the green revolution which ended up in diabetes and health problems in many parts of the world. If we thought, productivity, let’s get a good seed and plant it everywhere all at once. And we’re boosting yields because we had this GDP productivity yield fetish, which was much more important than can the people who live in the region live from that?

Is it a good enough livelihood? So we’ve got the price of core products and staples still not reflecting their true cost. And also we’ve ruined vast amounts of land, water systems and livelihoods and nutritionally, the plates that we eat off are not representative of the biodiversity our human bodies need. 

They are representative of the effectiveness and the productivity gains we’ve made in seed science and soil science. And so I think as we see, and I work on that in multilateral space, we’re doing massive rollbacks of monocropping, seed choice, crop rotation, using things like genetic editing with a climate sensitive focus. 

There’s opportunity everywhere in here, but when we take that systems perspective and we think about the multiple scenarios that we could be living with, then we’re naturally creating solutions that are going to be more fit for the future as well as for today. And it’s not a whack-a-mole situation. There is never one indicator that will help us move forward in anything. There’s always many and there’s always positive and negative externalities. 

And I would say the leaders of today, these are two things, the long -termism and then the adaptive pathways systems thinking that’s going to give you a type of decision insurance to offer a CEO, a board, a shareholder or a government regulator in trying to convince them about why the approach is going to be compelling. Do you experienced that? Like what do you feel in Australia, Cherry and Mik and Alan, what are you noticing there about these sorts of approaches?

Mik Aidt (13:50)

When we started the podcast, we played an interview with a professor here who has done some research and has interviewed CEOs around the world, including here in Australia. And what he said basically was that Australian CEOs are thinking about acquisitions and stakeholders. And that’s where their focus is. Not so much on what you’re talking about at all.

Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl (14:13)

Interesting point about the long-termism. From working with family officers, investment instruments, whether they’re public or private in terms of intergenerational wealth, I noticed the interest in thinking we’re making decisions today and we’re expecting it to yield in whatever, 20 years. The idea, certainly what I see in my world is the idea of a year and a half cycle on return is getting less interesting as a value proposition for either investments or solutions. The long term, like we are seeing instruments here, certainly all the public funding instruments, either from the European commission or German government, as well as I said, family offices and intergenerational wealth investors is like, we know it’s tough right now.

And we know that there’s a point of transition. So the maturity of understanding that there is transformation required now for yield and return in the future and that it is not a year and a half cycle is certainly very evident. Yet when I’ve had a really interesting experience where I had some European Union financial instrument funders in a room with classic private equity types, and we found that it almost got to a yelling perspective in terms of trying to understand each other, which was one was looking for that short term return and the other one was saying, but it’s going to have a long term cost. And it was great and harrowing to be in the room to see what those different natures of investments and returns were really looking for. Because if you were going to be some sort of an SME or a multinational that was looking to make a systemic change, it’s a really difficult environment. 

And I empathise with the Australian CEOs that you speak right now because if on one side they’re being held accountable for short-termism, yet on the other side they know very full well that the only way that their employees and their product and their company is going to extend beyond the next 10 years is with a long -term focus. Those are mixed signals and we have to somehow do something about unravelling and having a strong hard look about what is this next 10 years will look like.

Mik Aidt (16:24)

What would your advice be then?

Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl (16:27)

Well, you know that long-termism is one of my attitudes. So I’m looking at a 10 to 15 year approach to investment. I also believe that the next generations that we have are strong and capable leaders who have a very good understanding of profit, growth and responsibility that I think us and our previous generations didn’t have so well. I see regulatory frameworks from ASEAN, from the European Union, from the African Union, consistently all looking at and starting to set in place frameworks that are going to force and shift the thinking. I also see exactly these intergenerational wealth offices, which have traditionally been the original PEs since serfdom. They are also changing their tunes because they’re seeing that that’s what intergenerational wealth is. It’s not a year and a half return. It is intergenerational for a reason. 

So my advice then is having those honest conversations. And then they are with the shareholders saying, look, this is, this is what an investment program is. And I think it takes understanding that the role in the organisation, you as a person will be gone by the time the magic happens. So I think there’s got to be a little bit of a detangling the ego, not wanting to be the one that runs across the, the line with the middle in hand and recognising you are part of a greater set of decisions of which you can play a very mature role right now that moves the lever to greater growth in however you want to define that growth. And it doesn’t have to be you, the one that’s going to be reporting on pieces.

And I think there is, …who was that? I was just – I was reading about a mayor in a European city just last week who opened a new transport hub and they got the past four mayors to stand on stage with them. And their attitude was we’re only opening this multimodal transport hub today because Mayor X 20 years ago made the brave decision to conduct the feasibility here. Mayor Y 15 years ago made this decision. Mayor Z made this investment and it was just I think I get goosebumps when I think about it, but it’s that mature thinking that we are part of a lineage of decision makers and the sovereignty of the decision today is made in context of the past and the future. And so I think there’s an aspect in there to unravel. Like Robin, what do you see in the technology space?

Robin Weninger (18:57)

Yeah, there’s so many that we can start diving into. I think it’s a really good conversation that we’re starting here and there’s a lot to go into. I think we just go a little bit. Predicting the future is very easy and very hard at the same time, because it’s really easy to say something that sounds plausible, but it’s really hard to work towards that or validate that or see how this is unfolding then in reality.

And if we just like circling a little bit back to this activation part there, because I think that’s a good perspective that we can take here, is everything that Lyss just said, I totally agree on how we should approach that. And I think there’s like two more things that are probably relevant here. Like one is what are the personal skills that I have as an individual leading towards activation.

And activation itself is basically many, many skills. It’s like motivation, it’s inspiring, it’s educating, it’s teaching, it’s learning and so on and so forth. So you need to embrace quite a lot yourself. And then you also have this systematic environment around you that you’re in. So if you’re in an organisation, if you’re within a company set up, are dependent on certain systematic rules that are unfolding outside. 

And one being… pretty simple space, capitalism. So, and you can break this really simple down. Everything that’s good for a bit will be done by default because it contributes to a capitalistic economy. And now it’s a question, is this good or bad? That’s for another podcast probably, but it’s a simple way of how the market works and how businesses ultimately will be also rewarded either by their shareholders or even their stakeholders in parts.

But that doesn’t necessarily lead to the best possible outcome an organisation can achieve. And then it’s like, where are you? Are you in a long -term game?

Then probably you’re playing this differently compared to if you are a turnaround CEO that just got appointed to bring this company into a different shape for the next quarter. Then you are on a completely different scheme of operations here. So I think we need to… to on the one hand embrace that there’s more nuances to that. And that’s really hard to say, like, what’s the right approach depending on where you start. But what I think is really important to embrace is that every business is somewhere else along this journey. And every business is started with the idea to exist. Nobody starts a company and says like, I’m doing this for five years and then off we go.

No, you might say, I’ve been doing this for five years and I’m selling this company because it can live there and then it can scale there or whatever. But nobody starts a company say I’ve been doing this for five years and then this company dies. At least I have never met someone like that. And if someone did that after four years, most people are falling in love with what they’re doing and then it changes. So by, by default, I would argue that most organisations are existing because they want to exist and existence has different kinds of reality… you might be in survival mode, right? 

Might be, I need to, I need to make this earnings next quarter in order to pay all the salaries and continue the quarter after. Or it might be that you’re in a positive situation where you can say, I can now think about my 15 years, 20 years, 30 years plan with the same mindset at the same time. 

Like, it might be that next quarter, will change it because something around me is happening and getting comfortable with this discomfort of permanent change in dynamic around an organisation I think is really really crucial and something that we don’t embrace in leadership and organisational development nowadays because what we are embracing is to give an absolute answer to a very simple question most of the time the questions by the way are also really bad but we are trained to give an answer like if you think about schools we ask like hey what’s one plus one is two we’re not asking why is it actually two could there be an also another answer there’s just my making something stupid up here. And the same applies in business.

Someone asked a question and we want to give an answer to that question rather than first of all saying, let me think about that. Let me also challenge if your question is good. And like one of the biggest questions that we probably ask all the time in companies is how, right? So how do we use artificial intelligence to be more productive? How do we use whatever? And the problem with that is then some leaders become smarter and say, how is this not the right question? Now we ask why.

Why are we using AI for whatever? But this is also like a really boring question because it’s annoying, right? If someone asks you all the time, why should we use this? Why should we use that? Why should we? We all like everybody that has children or deals with children right now said it can be really exhausting. And also like from cognitive science, we know that if you are ignoring all the whys that’s bad. And if you’re responding to all the whys, it’s also bad. The best results are actually achieved if you’re asking not why, but what if or, Why do you think this could be?

So it’s the activation part in the other direction. So I think we need to embrace business, not only asking, how do we use that? Why do we need to do that? What’s the purpose? But really like saying like, let’s anticipate the future and say like, what if scenario A happens? What happens if scenario B happens? I think if we go more into this anticipation of a potential future, knowing that we will divert along this route then we can really become much better as an organisation. 

We can embrace our own weaknesses and connect the teams and have all these puzzle pieces. Because it might be that you have someone in your team that is a super motivator, but a total chaotic guy or whatever. So you probably want to say, like, OK, we need this motivational piece, but we need someone structured to bring this in line and into operations. So I think we really need this nuanced approach to that and really understanding.

What is the environment that we’re living in? What’s the system that has basically the operation scheme and how can we live in this system to actually exist as an organisation for as long as possible? And for some, there will be Abbott optimisation for the next four quarters and for the next one, will be sustained long-term. And in this decision, we need to figure out what we believe is the right thing to do. And this incentive I think is quite often missing.

Alan Alan Taylor (25:29)

I love that and I think there’s a way we would, I’d love to see more leaders doing that. What’s come to my mind while you’re sharing is that it sort of doubles back a bit on one thing that Lyss asked earlier, which was, you know, how our business is here in Australia. And where I, what came to mind for me is the energy company Woodside, which for a long time has been renowned as being the worst and the terrible list in all of Australia.

And then shockingly, their stakeholders, their shareholders in the last AGM a few months ago, kicked back and said, hey, this is all wrong. Now I’m playing this back into the context you’ve just been sharing there, Robin. This is one where there is that diversity of thought, just they’re not listening to each other. There is this idea that we need to adapt now because we need to, but we’re not ready to adapt. We weren’t expecting this to happen. And suddenly there’s this panic.

I’m wondering, and that’s quite prevalent in Australia’s very resource rich sort of landscape. I’m wondering what we can do or what can be done to foster that collaboration and alignment across the groups, which are sometimes not even heard like shareholders. Yeah, we’re doing this for the shareholders, but they don’t know that shareholders don’t like it. Which actually goes back to another point by the way that Lyss you mentioned is, no.

How do you get these chemical companies, the plastic companies? They might think that the shareholders don’t care, but maybe they do. How can we get that alignment and actually get people to start listening to the greater, what’s happening out there more than just what they think they want to hear?

Robin Weninger (27:12)

Yeah, I can start with a really brief answer on that because I think the answer to that is very difficult to realise, but very easy to start. And I think it’s really having these meaningful conversations with the people and just like talking about what one believes and what others are out there. I think we have way too many pleasing conversations out there. It’s not again, or it’s not about fighting. That’s about like having this conversation like, I disagree with you, without meaning, I don’t like you, right? 

Many people connect this like, I disagree with you, I don’t like you. That’s not the point. It’s just like we have different kinds of ideas and then also have this willingness. If I disagree with you initially, and then we dance around this topic, having this meaningful conversation. And then I come to the point, Alan is actually right that I then have whatever word you want to use, yeah, brevity, say like, Alan was actually right. I was wrong. 

And that’s why I changed my opinion now and went with something else. Or I agree to this part. And I think like we are way too often in the absolutes of our own thoughts without reflecting onto that, because I mean, there’s like so much out there that we can’t be aware of. It’s impossible. We are generating more knowledge every single day now than I don’t know. I don’t have the last numbers, but it’s significant.

And a lot of this is just like random opinion without any depth of, of, of a reference point. So people are just like saying something without saying, well, what’s, what’s the foundation for that? What’s the belief of that? Where does the data come from? So it’s a lot like this, this ambiguity in the information. And we’re just picking this up. 

Let’s mention that insurance for, for decisions and being evidence-based. So I think that’s, that’s really one part. And we really need to get out of this, opinion against your opinion, but saying, my opinion against your opinion with the aim of figuring out what’s the best way forward. It’s not about who is right and who is wrong. It’s about figuring out what drives progress in our own belief. 

And that’s a completely different way of thinking. It’s a completely different way of managing. And we have a systematic problem there. You’re not getting promoted for that. You’re getting promoted for being right. You’re getting promoted for dominating other people. And you’re getting promoted if you’re driving the KPIs that are the easiest to measure. Most things that are not easy to measure will never get promoted. And then we need the urgency behind that. I mean, we talk a little bit about climate change, but climate change, my grandmother already talked about. That’s nothing that is just like coming around the corner in the year 2024 saying, by the way, we also have climate change. No, this topic has been ongoing ever since. 

But if there’s no urgency and if it’s not relevant right let someone else figure it out and down the road. Then we have a problem. So anticipating the future, taking the… seriously having more meaningful conversations all really hard discussions and hard topics to crack. 

But I think it’s a starting point and it’s not about saying we’re going to solve it now. They stick with the plastics right now. We’re going for a plastic free world. That might be a good ambition. Well, let’s start small. Let’s probably think about first where it is not necessary to have this and where we can probably shift a little bit? Because not everything is just bad and good at the same. It’s, like, it’s progress. 

You don’t need to be the most sustainable company, whatever that means today, but you need to demonstrate that you’re working towards that. And if it takes 50 years, so shall it be. But every single day you need to do something about that. And breaking this down to these micro ambitions, tiny little baby steps will ultimately drive progress because sooner or later you will have flywheels, will have spillover effects and people get activated.

Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl (31:03)

Wow, good one, Robin. I agree. To that, I would add also that sometimes the governance just sucks and it’s worth looking at that. So I sit on six, I’ve been now on 16 multilateral boards of large organisations with a lot of money, with a lot of scrutiny. 

So often our governing instruments are outdated and the way the governance structures are working with the shareholders whether they’re private shareholders in a public environment or public funders in a multilateral environment. Sometimes that’s just wrong. And in my opinion, we don’t often enough. 

This was, you know, I had an Australian CEO and a GM of a large public Australian company visit me last week. We had a holiday together and we spent a lot of our holiday. Actually, I was asking them how much that they as CEO and GMs are working with their boards within their governance to right size their governance which is then steering the organisation. 

One thing, the Woodside example, shareholder activism is a really great one to look at, as well as, in Germany, we see sometimes employees protesting out the front of their own companies against obvious greenwashing and things. When the governance sucks, management is being held accountable to metrics and their performance management and things like that are measured on it. Yet the organisation, as you say, sometimes says other things to the shareholders.

Lining that up and having very honest conversations with the shareholders through the governing instruments will set the organisation on a very different track and it will give management a greater space to breathe the creativity and the solutionism that they need. It also will very quickly weed out the parts of the ecosystem that just don’t belong to that vision. 

So I would honestly say the first thing to look at is the governing instruments and how they truly set up for what needs to happen, the willingness for the board and in the entire series of accountability chain to agree on what that is and then set the performance targets based on that. The moment that happens, everything changes because then I mean, Cherry, you’re an expert in this area about individuals contributions to organisational changes. Well, then it becomes quite simple and we have a lot of exceptional performance management, you know Australia is really great.

With OKRs and Agile leadership, I know we’ve got a lot of skills in those areas. And so therefore, I think it’s pretty hard if as a person, know, an individual somewhere within management or leadership, you know the direction is supposed to be going in, but your entire governance and accountability is set up in the wrong way. Well, boom, you’ll never ever, ever win. 

And I think the willingness to sit down and yeah, that does mean I’ve been on changes where we’ve changed charters that require an act of parliament, which require giving back money, which require a lot of hard decisions, but the freedom that gives to an organisation to do what it needs to do is like, is worth it.

And so I would strongly push us, I mean, right now I’m kicking off a governance working group where we’re even just looking again, is our governance. Because I think so often in accountability, we’re looking at defending and overseeing and are looking at ourselves and where we’re right sizing, where those train tracks are set. So that is one very simple, but hard solution.

Alan Taylor (34:17)

It sounds like we need very brave leaders to make that bigger significant change. So we just got to find those or unlock their ability.

Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl (34:24)

Alan, may I politely disagree with you about braveness? I don’t think it’s a bravery thing. When we come to evidence-based decision-making, you don’t need courage for that. You just need honesty. And so I think what we have is we have a lot of numbers. We have a lot of metrics. We’re great at measuring things. Numbers don’t lie. There’s interpretation of numbers, which has something in it.

And what I feel is that we do a little bit too often as we take KPMG reports and EY reports and the big four, we take white papers from governance, but we’re not looking at the genuine evidence which exists in our organisations, empower our management and leadership to use their own data management skills and interpret our own data that tells us exactly where we are going. As a board member, I don’t accept a big four report as evidence.

That’s the last thing from evidence, in my opinion. The evidence that I will make a decision on and promise our shareholders the truth and I will guard the back of our management until the death is when I see the evidence. And so here is where I think we can work with it. And so I don’t think it’s bravery. I think it’s an effort. 

It’s a bit boring because it’s been willing to not skim, read and put through GPT a big four report and try to right size it to our own mission, which I have seen far too often. But it’s looking at the very small data. It’s like from period X to period Y. These were exactly the numbers. And maybe our data sets are a bit small. Maybe they’re statistically not even significant yet, but it only happens when we take our own data and knowledge and we can’t compare ourselves in Australia to what Europe is doing.

What are we 20 something million and we’re comparing to a 500 million economy doesn’t work like that. What we have to do is come up with our own solutions and be right sizing with our own data. So I would disagree that it’s bravery, it’s logic and it’s evidence. And we’re just willing to put the effort in as my friends last week were saying, honestly, they’re saying, I don’t think our team has the intelligence or the skills to do that.

Boom, there you go, leader, in terms of what is the up -skilling to be doing with the team? Do we need to catch each other in trust falls, or do we need to spend a little bit of time learning how to actually read the numbers? That’s also okay.

Robin Weninger (36:47)

If I may add one comment onto that, because I absolutely love this aspect, but I want to point out one more thing from an organisational perspective. 

Because I think this whole activity of making things valuable and not always taking the shortcut of outsourcing something or taking random or superficial information is such an important part. And I personally believe that in most organisations, you can cut 30, 40 % of work out without feeling any difference because we’re doing so much useless reporting, so much useless collection of data that just feels totally random. I just give you a really practical example as an organisation ourselves that is working with so many large companies in Europe or all around the world basically, like the biggest…

Like one of those things that I find really frustrating all the time is that you’re now getting like all these requests for reporting information, like, how many employees do you have? And all this kind of stuff. That’s fine. And I was like, how do you save energy in your business? How do you do whatever? And you fill them out and like every company has a different standard. You’re sending this all the time. I’m actually, I could probably hire someone just filling out these random reports where you know, exactly. They’re never going to appear anywhere for valuable decision-making, which is fine.

And you get exactly the same feedback from within the organisation, people saying, and you’re just asking, Hey, cool. I like, I like that you’re doing something with that. What are you going to do with that? Maybe I can enrich this even if it becomes valuable and people say, yeah, I’m putting this into a spreadsheet and then it goes into PowerPoint and then nobody will ever look into this. And I think we’ve, and this is frustrating for the people. 

If your task is to improve your overall value chain and you know everything you’re doing just goes into a random piece of paper that nobody is really interested in, that nobody takes action on, then you’re not willing to do something. And that’s part of the activation as well. If you give value to that, then it’s great. But we’re losing so much value creation that could drive us positively forward by just reducing like the bullshit. Sorry for using this word here and really making it valuable and saying, this is the evidence we need for this particular decision, and that’s why we’re doing this. Fine. I will write as many pages as you need in order to achieve this goal. But if you are just asking me to fill out a spreadsheet that someone puts onto a cloud server and never looks at again, I’m not willing to do that because that doesn’t help anybody.

Alan Taylor (39:26)

I love where this conversation went from me making a statement, which got a very bold response, thank you, Lyss, but it’s brought the conversation and it exemplifies the point that we need to be able to voice the ideas and listen to them, hear one another and come out with whatever we understand. So thank you both for that.

Cherry Ward (39:45)

We have a segment called Rapid Fire Tip for Action and it’s an opportunity for you to provide actionable insights to our listeners to inspire them and for them to take action as well. So my first question for you Lyss is what’s the most impactful action someone can take to support a business revolution in their organisation?

Alyssa Jade McDonald-Baertl (40:06)

The first thing to do is to see things from a systems perspective. We often look at things in isolation. It’s this metric or it’s that product. And I would say, imagine you’re a photographer and you open the aperture on your lens. That is to give you a view. That’s how I am working in environmental science. That’s how we in global environmental science are working now. We never look at one seed, one topic, one water basin. We look at ecosystems. So it is… What is the ecosystem you’re in? And where would the proposed intervention bring value and damage and be willing to weigh out the outcomes of the two?

Cherry Ward (40:45)

And Robin, what’s one thing that everyone can do right now to contribute to a better world?

Robin Weninger (40:49)

I think the really best part everybody could do is just make sure they are contributing to that and really challenging what they are doing day in, day out and saying like, is this really contributing for what I believe in? Do I really need to attend another meeting?

We have a whole workforce that just does meetings and never works on these meetings before and after. So just like cutting out non-value drivers and replacing them with value drivers, I think it is really, important. And then probably the easiest one to start with is really starting with yourself and breaking it down and living also a lifestyle that supports that, like being healthy, doing exercise, sleeping well.

That leads to high performance. You can’t run a marathon with a stone in your shoe. And if you have a stone in your shoe, you need to take it out first.

Cherry Ward (41:39)

If you want to learn more and connect with Lyss and Robin, you can connect on LinkedIn and also check out their website, which will be in the show notes. And that’s a wrap for today’s episode of The Business Revolution. We hope you enjoy diving deep into the world of business and sustainability with us.

Mik Aidt (41:57)

And remember, the revolution doesn’t end here. It’s up to each and every one of us to take the knowledge and the inspiration that you hopefully got today from today’s episode and turn it into action.

Cherry Ward (42:10)

Whether it’s implementing sustainable practices in your own business or advocating for change in your community, every step counts towards building a better future.

Alan Taylor (42:21)

So don’t forget to visit our website at www.businessrevolution.earth for more resources, past episodes, and ways to actually get involved.

Mik Aidt (42:31)

And if you enjoyed today’s episode, don’t hold back with letting us know. can first of all, subscribe to the podcast, but you can also rate it and review it. And we’d love to hear from you. So your feedback always helps us, knowing, finding ideas for other topics that we should be talking about and, you know, reaching out to more listeners.

Cherry Ward (42:32)

Thank you for joining us on this journey of transformation. Together we can revolutionise the way we do business and create a world that’s sustainable for generations to come.

Alan Taylor (43:08)

Stay tuned for insights, inspiration and actionable ways to help reshape the way that we do business for a better tomorrow at all of our levels for all of us to be part of the solution.

Mik Aidt (43:19)

Until next time, keep innovating, keep inspiring and keep pushing for positive change for a brighter tomorrow. This is Mik.

Cherry Ward (43:28)

Cherry.

Alan (43:30)

And Alan, signing off. Don’t forget: the business revolution starts with you.

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The Business Revolution Episode 8

In the eigth episode of The Business Revolution, we journey beyond sustainability and into the realm of regeneration with Sinnet Bødewadt, an Earth Ally and storyteller from Denmark who challenges us to shift our mindsets from reduction to rebuilding. 

Discover how embracing nature’s principles, like symbiosis and cyclical processes, can lead to innovative solutions and a more bountiful world for both people and the planet. Learn how to cultivate a regenerative mindset in business, unleashing creativity, and fostering positive change.

Tune in to learn more about:

• Crafting compelling narratives around regenerative practices to inspire and engage stakeholders.

• Shifting our mindset and moving beyond simply reducing harm to embracing a regenerative approach that actively rebuilds ecosystems and businesses.

• Embracing nature’s principles like symbiosis and cyclical processes to create win-win solutions and foster resilience.

• Unleashing creativity to tap into the positive energy and creative potential that comes with a regenerative mindset.

• Practical implementation by utilising tools like the plus/minus line to identify opportunities for regenerative solutions in your business.

Audio version:

Sinnet Bødewadt is an accomplished change management leader with a strong background in both public and private sectors. As CEO of Landbrug+ and Nature+, she has over two decades of experience driving sustainable transformations, focusing on CSR, regenerative agriculture, and creating synergies between business, people, and a healthy planet.

Sinnet’s expertise spans roles as a LEAN manager, where she boosted productivity and improved work environments, as well as an international auditor and project manager implementing green strategies for organisations like IKEA Denmark and Region Sjælland (a regional Danish authority).

Sinnet is also an experienced educator, teaching LEAN leadership and fostering sustainable practices. Her visionary approach integrates environmental stewardship with economic growth, making her a champion for innovative, sustainable solutions across industries.

Dhghem website:
→ www.dhghem.com

  𝐓𝐁𝐑 𝐰𝐞𝐛𝐬𝐢𝐭𝐞: https://businessrevolution.earth/businessrevolution8

  𝐒𝐩𝐨𝐭𝐢𝐟𝐲: https://open.spotify.com/episode/13qWgJAdNpF3ewueotH49y

  𝐀𝐩𝐩𝐥𝐞 𝐏𝐨𝐝𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐭:  https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/into-the-realm-of-regeneration/id1736051723?i=1000669298105

  𝐘𝐨𝐮𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QiXDGGHjs

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Ready to move beyond sustainability and into the realm of regeneration?
On the latest Business Revolution podcast, Sinnet Bødewadt shares practical steps to cultivate a regenerative mindset in your business. https://t.co/2vhYVQilZY
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Alan Taylor (00:00)

Welcome, revolutionaries. My name is Alan.

Mik Aidt (00:03)

And I’m Mik.

Cherry Ward (00:04)