Dhati Lewis is the Lead Pastor of Blueprint Church in Atlanta, Georgia and the Vice President of Send Network with the North American Mission Board. He was born and raised in California and later moved to Texas where he completed his undergraduate studies from the University of North Texas. He later earned his master’s degree from Dallas Theological Seminary and his Doctorate of Ministry in Great Commission Mobilization from Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Dhati is is most passionate about making disciples, equipping urban leaders, and loving his family. On any given day you might find Dhati changing a plan, coaching his kids in basketball, or strategizing on a whiteboard. Dhati has seven beautiful children and is married to Angie, a discerning woman who empowers and encourages him to live fully in his identity in Christ. He is the author of both the Bible Study and book, Among Wolves: Disciple Making in the City and Advocates: The Narrow Path to Racial Reconciliation.

Clint and Josh’s new hoodie from Costco.

Mark Clifton is the senior director of replanting at the North American Mission Board. Mark has served as a pastor, church planter, church revitalizer, mission strategist, coach and mentor to young leaders. He has planted and replanted numerous churches and has also served as a national and regional leader for church planting and missions.

His experience includes serving as the lead mission strategist for the Kansas/Nebraska Southern Baptist Convention, leading church planting efforts in the regions of north metro Atlanta, Georgia, serving as a church planter in Montreal, Quebec, as a Southern Baptist National Church Planting Missionary for eastern Canada, and has lead Southern Baptist church planting projects west of the Mississippi. Mark has been planting, replanting and providing strategic mission leadership since 1978.

Mark and his wife, Jill, live in Kansas City, Missouri and have two sons, two daughters-in-law and three grandsons.

NAMB Church Revitalization site

Albert Miller: This is the church planning podcast. Thank you for tuning in every week. We sit down with leaders who are shaping church planning efforts. Here's your host just too risky and click Clifton.

Josh Turansky: Welcome  to the Church Planting Podcast. My name is Josh Turansky and I'm joined by Clint Clifton live from his. Beautiful office here in Washington DC.

Clint Clifton: Hey Josh,

Josh Turansky: It's great to be back. We're going to be introducing this episode with John Mark Clifton. I listened in on this episode as a lot of fun.

Clint Clifton: Yeah. He is a fun guy.

Yeah. Listen, no man today he posted on

Josh Turansky: what's up with the hat.

Clint Clifton: Oh, yeah, he's well, he wears the International Harvester. Hats which is I've learned is like a company that makes tractors or something, but he uses it at he's like hijacked their stuff it in its... Now, he's an International Harvester of souls.

So like he has all his guys that that are like in his, you know, tribe they all wear International Harvester stuff, which that tractor company is really benefiting from. Yeah,

Josh Turansky: ...Because other guys post pictures.

Clint Clifton: Yeah, they put it's like almost like Elf on a Shelf like they post pictures of them with the hats everywhere.

So I don't understand it completely. It's a little mysterious. But today he's a very very funny very witty person and today he folk posted on. Facebook so if you're not familiar and this will date when we're recording this but he yesterday in Chapel Union Seminary. Did you see this know they the chapel service they got all of the that got a bunch of plants.

Like physical plants from Walmart or what? I like ficus trees and Ferns and stuff and they pulled them into the chapel and the students at around and confessed their sins to them to the Lance. And so it Twitter exploded with like how ridiculous that was, you know, yeah, it was pictures of it everything.

I mean it was it was crazy. So which Union is a seminar that you expect that sort of thing from it? Yeah, but yeah. Anyway, so that happened in John Mark posted a picture of one of those ficus trees those fake ficus trees that are in churches All Over America, you know, it's like got some moss in the bottom of it with a wicker basket and then the fake Ficus leaves and there's dust all over it because it's been sitting in some corner or something.

Yeah. So that's like an every Baptist Church. It's it's like in the Baptist a the message somewhere you have that one of those at that but he posted a picture of one of them and and just said, you know something about they're not the only ones who idolized plants or something. I don't know. So, uh, So funny and so accurate.

I was just like he's a great social media follow very very experienced in Ministry and super witty and not afraid to say what he thinks we

Josh Turansky: will try to embed that. I think we can embed that. Oh as long as it's a public post

Clint Clifton: it. Yeah, it's

Josh Turansky: probably yeah, we'll try to put that in the show notes people can check it out.

So John Mark Clifton,

Clint Clifton: well not related. Not

Josh Turansky: yeah, that's another important thing to clarify.

Clint Clifton: I'm not really not people think he's my dad. Sometimes we work in the same at the same agency and we get each other's emails. Sometimes people think he's my dad. Hmm, but he's not

Josh Turansky: and he's tasked with.

Revitalization replanting.

Clint Clifton: Yeah, he's the replanting guy. So he's essentially he's got you're going to hear all this all this soap boxes. So I'm not going to give them away right now. But yeah, he's the replanting guy.

Josh Turansky: Yeah. Yeah, excellent. Excellent interview. There is a lot of insights that came out.

So make sure you listen all the way through also before we jump into the episode. I just wanted to mention the obviously subscribe to the podcast but the reviews are helpful. The reviews The Stars, whatever whatever it is.

Clint Clifton: Yeah. Yeah, there's. As I understand it and I don't know much about this is more you're around but are how often we show up to those who search for church planting podcast is related to those sorts of reviews.

So please do review us it helps us become more visible to others who are looking for Content about church planting.

Josh Turansky: Yeah, and we're on Spotify. We're not just on iTunes or on Spotify. We're on Google Play. Yeah, so whatever platform you prefer. I'm like fed up right now with iTunes.

Yeah or the podcast.

Clint Clifton: I I've I've never listened to a podcast on Spotify until just recently when we went on Spotify and I'm loving it. I mean, it's so much better than iTunes but ocean. I don't know if I should say that but

Josh Turansky: yeah,

Clint Clifton: they can't do anything about it. I guess not I guess II feel kind of proud if people called me pay attention.

Josh Turansky: Yeah.

Clint Clifton: I'd be like men were really making a splash. Here we go. All right. Anyone cares,

Josh Turansky: let's jump in to this episode with John Mark Clifton. 

Clint Clifton: Have you ever had that experience of hearing a great idea and thinking why couldn't that have been my idea? Well, I had that experience recently when I ran across a company called space together now space together was founded by a church planter in space together is to the church world what Air B&B is to your family?

It lets you rent out your church space as easily as Airbnb let you rent out your home. You can rent out a part of the building for like a. Specific day and time or you can rent out the building in an ongoing way in a time where your facility is underutilized in space together has this great technology that helps you take underutilized Church space and create new opportunities for your congregation now exclusively for church planting podcast listeners space together is offering a $1 posting fee.

You can post your space on Space together for just one dollar when you use the coupon code planter. And if you're a church planter that needs space go on Space together and look at the places they're offering and maybe you'll find the perfect spot for your new church. You can learn more about space together at their website space together.com.

Well, John Mark Clifton, thank you for joining me.

John Mark Clifton: Well, thank you for asking me to join you.

Clint Clifton: Yes. Well, John Mark, we often get mistaken for family.

John Mark Clifton: I know to very good-looking well-built handsome men to get confused all the time

Clint Clifton: people ask if you're my grandfather.

John Mark Clifton: Is that right? I do get your email a lot. I read it and don't send it on to you. It's kind of fun.

Clint Clifton: Yeah. Yeah, there's been there's been some funny ones that I usually just reply and say I don't think this for me. Well John Mark, you're in charge of the category at the North American Mission board that's called replanting.

John Mark Clifton: Yes,

Clint Clifton: and that is a broad category that used to be called well.

Revitalization maybe or

John Mark Clifton: all I think so. Actually we kind of created a new lane a new category. That's what we did. Well actually a decade ago. Nobody even wanted to talk about revitalization. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I'm an old

Clint Clifton: everybody wanted to plant a

John Mark Clifton: church. Yeah. I planted my first church and I was 19.

Yeah, and I spent 30 years planting churches or working with the North American Mission board planting churches and we always felt like, you know dying church is declining churches were. They were like a black hole. They were like, they would suck everything in its right to whatever come out.

Clint Clifton: Yes. Well...

John Mark Clifton: We used to go there and never be heard of again. So it's like why do we want to deal with dying churches? Let's just go across the street to the school. And start something brand-new rights like my Christmas lights, but I don't like to I like to put them out but I don't like to take them off, you know, so when I take them off, I just roll him up in a ball and make it on time and they get all tangled up in the next year.

I Justice easier to go by noon just go buy new ones. And so it's easier than to untangle all the problems at this church. Just go start something new but a couple of four five seven years ago, whatever God just kind of slapped me upside the head and rub this question to my mind. You know, what about a dying Church brings glory to my name or makes much of me in this community and they just stopped me dead in my tracks and all the sudden.

I realize we have really been ignoring the bride of Christ and it is these are the church essential. I may they may not be they may have a lot they do have a lot of problems. They wouldn't be dying sure. But these are people if they're regenerate. Yeah, they're still the Bride, of course. And if Jesus were to return it at that moment you would they would be completely transformed into a perfected bride.

Yeah, and I think we've just been way too quick to give up on them, you know, the Bob Dale wrote a book a long time ago and it's a good book and everybody should read it called the life cycle of a church and he points out the identify Bible life cycle of a church. And there is an identify about life cycle of a church, but there's nowhere in Scripture that the life cycle of a church is talked about Paul never talks about it when he's talking to Timothy about Ephesus and I think we're too quick to give up on him and go across the street and start something brand-new.

And when we do that we say to the community. Yeah. This church has the answer. Jesus is the answer but he couldn't keep his church open. So we got it. It's like it's like a restaurant that kind of lived out its time and now we got to redo something cool and. For this next generation and I think that's tragic.

Clint Clifton: So as a guy who so you're saying that though as as a church planting guy, I mean again re-emphasizing you spent your career your life planting churches

John Mark Clifton: and it doesn't church

Clint Clifton: and you're like in your 90s

John Mark Clifton: actually

Clint Clifton: something now. Yeah, but you you just did it for her,

John Mark Clifton: but I Century I didn't have stetzer helping me.

So that's right.

Clint Clifton: Yeah, well. So you did this for a long time you were in the church planting vein and then you're stuck with this question and you started to turn your attention to this. But as a guy who's still in the church planting lane, I kind of what I feel the need to blur like bring a little bit of about I think people have gone a little crazy with revitalization because I was talking to a seminarian yesterday at my house.

So came over my house. Yeah, and he said he this is a guy that he became Christian in my church. Yeah raised him up. He his dad. He planted a church. He watched his dad playing Church Then I then he went off to Seminary and at Seminary he drank the revitalization nine nine marks Kool-Aid, right?

And so now he comes back says an I feel like God's call me to revitalize a church, and I'm what I said doing was we used to call that pastoring. Like going to a church that had struggles and becoming their pastor and helping them go out of those struggles this pastoral ministry that's you know, and so that but understand that's different than church planting so is what we're doing is replanting different than that or it can get me category.

John Mark Clifton: Yeah, it is different. Here's the deal on replanting. We look at churches that you're right most most churches are in decline in need a pastor to come and love them and care for them and bring them back in some way but we're talking about. In our own denomination of southern baptist churches. Yeah, we can absolutely say with certainty the 10% of the churches that are existing today if things don't change will not exist in three to five years.

So if you're in that 10% then you're in a replant category. You don't have a long enough Runway to make the changes necessary. So it's going to have to be some drastic changes. And and what what I'm trying to do what our teams trying to do a couple of things change the narrative so that dying churches don't feel such guilt and shame that they refuse to ask for help.

Yeah, but rather they see it as a normal process and there are options and you know, one of the options that's my church planting and replanting goes so closely together one of the. Primary options we offer to dine churches is lets find a church plant in your community that doesn't have a building that has a passion in a mission and and and you join that church plant and they come in and take your building.

Yeah, which is good because I don't know very many Church plants that have a strategy to reach 88 year old widows in their neighborhood.

Clint Clifton: I don't even so

John Mark Clifton: in going into it going into a dying Church. It forces them to embrace an older generation. And that's not a bad thing really? So that's really the first option.

Also. Another option is maybe just give the building to a church plant don't sell it. I mean, what are you gonna do with the money? Anyway, I mean not your money belongs to the kingdom and that church plants going to have to come in and do a lot of work update it and bring things to it. So we're just trying to convince churches at the end of their existence rather than make some poor choices.

Let's let's keep this church-going right? Maybe not the same name, but it's still a church in that building. But I do believe in I do believe there's something very important about sacred spaces in a neighborhood. Yeah, when you go up across New England at different places, and I served for 10 years in Kansas and Nebraska because some communities in Nebraska where the churches have closed and and now their gift shops or antique shops or flee markets.

Man we just there's just something missing having that Sacred Space course and so we want to reclaim that Sacred Space

Clint Clifton: and there's an alarming alike in DC where I am. There's an alarming number of churches. I mean just every week it's happening churches are being converted into other things. It's become not just a good real estate decision to become trendy.

Oh, yeah. And so you got that reality happening and then the reality that it's increasingly difficult to even find rental space as a church as an evangelic alone in a city like Washington is incredibly liberal. So you mix those things together and we're basically those Sacred Space has become very very vital to the survivability of the the church right

John Mark Clifton: A friend of mine Graham sing from Montreal.

I served in Montreal for several years, and he said he's from England and he said, You know a closed Church looks like an abandoned castle of a long forgotten King. Yeah, and so, you know, so initially I we want to work with these dying churches to help them perhaps. You know merge with a church plant or allow Church Plant.

It really have their facility. But sometimes they're not going to do that and they want to they want to stay there. Then we bring in we talked about replanting from within and it's like revitalization on steroids. I mean and generally speaking if you're going to replant from within you're going to have to have outside help, you know, you don't plant a church.

I very seldom. Do you plan to church all by yourself? Right. There's a team around you there are other sending churches that come around you so if we're going to replant a dying Church. Generally speaking. We want that replanted raise up a team to go into that church, raise up some sending churches to support it and basically.

What he's doing Clint? Is he starting a new church in that building while he's loving the remaining members. You don't kick the remaining members to The Curve remaining members are not an obstacle to your ministry. They are your first Ministry and as we always say you love the church. You have not the church you wish you had and so, you know, you come in and you love that original group and you get their hearts to warm back to Jesus rather than some of the Traditions that they have at the same time you serve and love the neighborhood.

With with great abandoned and what we've lost in North America to a great degree as the neighborhood church. Yeah, I'm pretty good at knowing how to plant Regional challenges. But what's it mean to be a church of a hundred people committed to 15 or 20 square blocks, right you realize we have twice as many southern baptist churches as there are Starbucks restaurants.

Yeah. Now I've never seen anybody go to a Starbucks and go this is such a tiny little restaurant and look and go down the street. There's another. Doesn't matter that they're small what matters is there's so many of them and they're everywhere right? Well God in his sovereignty has placed 40,000 southern baptist churches

all over the blender a point.

so why do we look at it? It's so small. No, it's part of this twice as many as there are Starbucks. So what if they were intentional about 20 30 40 blocks around them and becoming the the real disciple making Community transforming? Center of those 20 or 40 or 60 blocks or whatever it might run in a small town that kind of thing.

And by the way. Southern Baptist we see about eight to nine hundred churches closed their doors every year and over 70 percent of them are in communities of over a hundred thousand people. So we're closing churches in the cities rural areas. You can have a church in a rural area with 12 or 15 people and is still have social validation the community sees nothing wrong with that you put a church in Washington DC that has seats 400 has 30,000 30 people on Sunday morning.

Yeah, you're already. You're already dead men eyes,

Clint Clifton: right? Yeah, that's a that's a great point. And yeah, I think there is a there's a huge undervaluing of the small church and I've heard you talk a lot before about the the sort of average size church and how our perceptions messed up on that.

John Mark Clifton: I don't ever use the word small Church unless I'd accidentally usually yes, I've used it all my life.

But you know the term that the descriptor small Church. Yeah, if you look into Publications in writing that came into real prominent, No surprise in the 60s and 70s with the rise in church built in Japan. So the church growth movement had to have a small church so that you could become a big church and the church growth movement started overseas and has some really good stuff in it.

But by the time it made it to the United States and I'm a child of church girls. Boom. Yeah, me too. It's really got some carnality to it really it creates winners and losers if your church is growing you're winning. And let's be honest. We tend to feel prideful about that. Yep. If your church is declining you're losing and let's be honest.

We tend to feel depressed and give up about that and doesn't the adversary like us when we either prideful or were depressed. So focusing on numbers is and again, you've heard me say it it's not original with me, you know the cost of Paul never ask Timothy. How many are you running? I mean that wasn't an issue with him at all.

But it's the biggest issue with us. That's how we judge everything. And so I call it the normative size church. It's not a small Church dude. I got four grandsons under the age of six if my daughter-in-laws take my grandson's to pediatrician and he says you're in the 90th percentile in what in what world do my daughter-in-law say, our boys are small?

No, only 10% of the boys on the planet are bigger than your boys. Well, if you're a church of 200 less than 8% of the churches in North America are bigger than you are. Yeah it in fact if your church of hundred less than it's about 70% if your church of 50, it's actually 63% you actually 63% of all churches of your church gathered worship of 50.

And so. You're a normative church and I think when we use the word small church, it's a limiting word to people they immediately think we can't do anything because we are a small Church. Yeah,

Clint Clifton: and really if we're ever going to get to a movement scale of anything. I mean, we're just talking earlier today about the fact that we are so far behind on even keeping up with population growth in the number of dying churches in all of those things.

We are we're we just. The volume of church planting and revitalization and replanting work that needs to happen in order for us to see anything significant happen is going to have to be a lot more and so with that as a reality the that's much more likely in your mind to happen through really small church.

It's normative sides

John Mark Clifton: every time somebody says we're going to have a small Church conference as they know you're going to have a conference for 93% of all churches in North America. I know a huge look if you took every in our group if you took every Southern Baptist pastor who preached to more than 17 hundred and fifty last weekend, okay, you could put them all on one Air France jumbo jet about five hundred and twenty of them.

If you took every Southern Baptist pastor who preached a less than 200 like I did I've never pastored a church more than 150. I don't have the skills to do it. By the way. God didn't give me that way, and I'm cool with that. But if you took every Southern Baptist pastor who preached to less than 200 last weekend, it would fill every single seat in Royal stadium, Kansas City Royals baseball.

So you park a park a jet next to the Royal stadium. You could every Pastor who preaches more than 1750 on the jet. You put every Pastor who preached to less than 200 in Royal stadium again, but the adversary doesn't want us to realize is the real the real tremendous potential in North America as in those forty thousand churches.

But as long as they feel isolated broken defeated. And look I'm not near as interested whether you have two hundred or a hundred. I'd rather you have a hundred and all of those people be able to walk to church. Then you have 200 and they drive from 10 15 20 miles away. I think we've lost the neighborhood church.

Yeah

Clint Clifton: Well something about it the professionalization of ministry, even the professionalization of church planting has made it much more difficult to imagine a movement happening in my mind. Yeah, I mean if we could wear a convention built on the backs of farmers and you know, if we could somehow go back to the mindset.

We calling it by vocational right now, but where where it's not both a career and and calling our ministry, but. Regular Christians normal Christians could set out about the work of establishing new churches and pastoring old churches. Right?

John Mark Clifton: I mean like

Clint Clifton: that. That's the only way that we're going to get somewhere that's going to I mean that if something is going to happen, it's going to look something like that.

It's not going to happen or professional level.

John Mark Clifton: So if there's a neighborhood to be reached and there's a building there and a remnant of people I really do believe I mean look, I don't want to sound trite about this. But Jesus is not looking at that church going. I don't have a clue. It's a dumpster fire.

I can't figure that one out. I mean he has a plan for every Church. Yeah. All right. The reason the church is aren't functioning the way they should is they're following their plan in their agenda, right? You're not following Jesus plan, but I believe he has a plan for every church and he desires for his glory his name to be made known, you know in the Book of Revelation when John sees Jesus he's walking among the lampstands each of those lampstands represents an individual autonomous.

You know identifiable Church. Yeah. Well, Jesus is among all the churches. I mean he's there. Yeah, and I get really worried when we think we just need the right program or the right personality or the right you got the Risen Lord there and again, I think we do have to get back to that. I think the church growth movement has taken us away from that and I think if we just concern ourselves with how are we sharing Jesus in this neighborhood?

How are we being Christ to these people? How are we being generous to this neighborhood? You know those who've been dealt generously wish to be the most generous people in the community. So that little church, you know, a lot of times dying churches put up a chain across their parking lot. You know, it says do not enter or you walk in and says no food no drink.

I mean what's generous about that? You know so becoming generous opening the. You say all the time. You got a big old church building and nobody in it. Perfect take one floor and put a bunch of washers and dryers in it and let the neighborhood come in and do their laundry a couple times a week and you teach the kids while they're doing it, but they can other room and paint it up as a birthday party room and let the whole neighborhood know if your kid needs a birthday party.

Here's a great room. You can have it in and just be generous and you know, Yeah, your wrist some things when you do that, but Ministry is supposed to be that way.

Clint Clifton: It's not better than the place being empty. Yeah. Well John John Mark desert powerful ideas and thoughts and I just I am so excited that as an organization that we are putting emphasis on not just starting new churches, but but helping to Breathe new life into

John Mark Clifton: one so it's got to be both.

Yeah, it can't be either or it's always starting new churches in but we don't want to. The ones here diaper God's glory and for the remaining members who are there and for the assets that the kingdom assets that are there and so we've been really good Clint for the last 20 25 years of creating systems and bringing tremendous resources to church planting and we need to do the very same thing to churches that are about ready to close.

There's no reason not to put that kind of emphasis if it's still the bride of Christ and he's still among them. Yeah, then then there's still tremendous opportunity and look, We're seeing it over and over and over again. Tell you one quick story. I tell me one. So there's a church in near Kansas City called Greenwood and they had a couple of splits and they had a staff member had a moral failure and it was on the news and you know, it just it got down to just a handful.

So Lenexa Baptist Church several years ago. Entered into partnership with and replanted it as part of their sort of a campus for them and it just did wonderful. You know it grew too and again, I'm not big into numbers, but I don't tell you agreed about three or four hundred. Yeah and the next spun it off as an independent autonomous Church.

This is as we do this. This is Monday, right? Yeah yesterday morning that church Greenwood did the same thing to a church in Raymore, Missouri. Wow, so and that church voted to become part of Greenwood. Yeah. So that's a second generation replant, that's there to churches that really a decade or two ago would have just probably died off.

And now they're going to be veidt. That's the changing narrative that we see them as opportunities display God's glory. We see them as a place where people can still be reached in the church can and then the remaining members at first. It's really hard for them. But I did this at a job in Kansas City.

I was there for 10 years and first it's really difficult, but man three or four years into it. They look around and they go look at all the kids. Look at all the young people the people being baptized and it brings joy to their final years. Yeah, and so there's really no downside to it.

Clint Clifton: So one of the things that happens all the time in church planting as you know, That there will be a church planter whose Spears experiencing some success and some growth and some vitality and they start to have a need for facility and there's a dying Church in their community in their neighborhood and their Church planter wants to begin to engage the pastor.

Honestly, he wants to do it primarily because he wants to assets and resources so advised that church planter who's listening right now.

John Mark Clifton: Yeah, very good. First of all, If you're in it for Southern Baptist in your in association get to know the director of mission. Yes, he's the one that can really be the go-between right in any dying church is going to feel threatened by a larger Church who knocks on their door and says, hey, it's like we're the government were to help you.

I mean, they're not going to believe that you're here to take my stuff. You know, you feel like the age of grandparent and the rest home and the grandkids. You haven't seen in 10 years show up and they kind of want to know what you're going to do with the farm when you die, so. The director missions has probably been working with that church in know something about them and he could play a very important role in sort of managing those introductions managing that process bringing trust to them.

If that's not an offer of option then we tell that the church plant. Can you just put it on just take it out of your mind that you're going to take their building and look at them as a church that needs to be served and loved and cared for. Can you just go pray for them? Can you just say look could you give us three or four things we can pray for and every time we gather for worship in the next couple of months.

We're going to pray publicly for this. Can you bless their Pastor if they still have a pastor if he's an elderly gentleman. Can you can you honor him? Maybe if you have a baptism service in your church plant you could ask that. Elderly passenger to come and get in the baptismal Waters with you and just honor him.

And and then also maybe you could clean up their their yard or yeah, we did that all the time and you got to say and they go what do you want? We don't want anything from you. We really don't and you really shouldn't I mean you really shouldn't you do it because it's the right thing to do. Yeah, and then you let let the Holy Spirit began to knit those hearts together and if you only see them because you want their.

And you got to repent of that because that's a remnant of a church people who are hurting and you want to care for them and love them. So and do that for several churches in your community. Yeah, again, it's good for church plants sometimes and I've planted a lot of churches. Yeah, it's good for them to sometimes look at older people who are having difficulties in their lives.

Look at older churches and older buildings and get a different perspective, right and. And have some compassion at that point so just love them and care for them and serve them and I've seen so many times out of that not in a month or two.

Clint Clifton: Yeah, it takes

John Mark Clifton: time and church Planters don't have much patience but not in a month or two, but maybe in two or three years.

You'll see them begin to knit together. But the quicker you can bring up director missions or third-party kind of into that. It does make it go better.

Clint Clifton: Yeah, we're seeing some we've worked together on some projects eat some really encouraging things in regard to that and I we I think of this one story and my the church I planted one of our church plants did this the where a church came together and and and one of the.

Older families that left and was a little frustrated with the change of the church had made they came back years later wants the church had been vibrant up and running and and and it was just cool to see them rent it reintegrate and kind of you know, they still had all these romantic. You know memories of their church and you know, it's meaningful What the Lord Has Done in somebody's life in a church and they want to go and see that happen again.

So it's just been it's just been fun to watch that whole cycle and watch the church Planters heart sort of softened toward that and then the older couple softened toward in them come together, you

John Mark Clifton: know, there's a lot of talk about racial reconciliation and multi-ethnic churches, right? We know one thing about the first century church.

It was a multi-generational church. Okay when Paul talks to Timothy, you know, you gotta you gotta you gotta admit you had a younger women and older women how they relate to each other and what he say admonish the older men gently or something like that. I like that because they need to be admonished even 2,000 years ago, but do it gently, you know, respectfully, but he's talking about intergenerational stuff.

And of course, you know people in that church in Ephesus thought Timothy was too young. Yeah. All that well today we just do what well, I'm not gonna hang out with old people would just go look. I know that 10 o'clock on Sunday morning is the most racially segregated hour in North America, but I think in many ways it's also the most generationally segregated hour North America that's

Clint Clifton: going to be on the trends were on if we're not caring about maybe we yeah.

Yeah, that's a great point.

John Mark Clifton: So a multi-generational church helps you realize you're not the most important the world doesn't revolve around you and your worldview. Yeah, and the only way you keep a multi-generational church. Together is to have focused on the gospel not upon. Their own needs

Clint Clifton: and I know our political climate when exactly say this but in some ways the generational Gap is more difficult to bridge of culturally inside the church than an ethnic Gap is just just because you know, the general, you know, the kinds of things that young young families are young single people are so focused on her interested in are so distant from that of an older Generation

John Mark Clifton: II can I can give testimony to that?

Yeah having Pastor to church with both. Multiple races and multiple generations and the real tension was multiple Generations. It was the older especially the young people leaving the lights on. That's basically they're

Clint Clifton: Even my own church. We have I'm and it's mostly like one Dem one age group.

Yeah, and and then we have a you know, the smaller group of people who are a little bit older in the things that they care about and emphasize are very different. We have to we have to pass for our younger people to really pay attention to those,

John Mark Clifton: you know, Mark Alec in Denver he has. Discipleship is a huge issue with his church and it is with all of us who work in replanting.

We say that success in replanting is a culture of disciples who make disciples that result in the neighborhood be noticeably better not getting a hundred people in church not breaking it in its barrier don't care about that. Are you have a pattern of making disciples who can make disciples? And is your neighborhood noticed we better because the church is there and in Mark's Church.

He has this wonderful thing of putting people. Groups of three for intensive discipleship and their multiples. I was there if I hadn't seen it. I wouldn't even believed it. But like a 17 year old girl a 33 or 40 year old mom and an 81 year old Widow. You know, what are these three have in common to come together weekly you look exactly.

Yeah, that's the whole point. You know, if it's three teenagers coming together. Well, of course they do have the three widows come together. We'll of course they do that but you get three totally and Mark said, you know at first it was really difficult. There's a lot of resistance but he said as a pastor it blows you away to look out there on Sunday morning and see that 17 year old girl kind of leave her pack and ghost intentionally set down on Sunday morning next to the 81 year old Widow that's in her discipleship group do when you've done that.

Your that's the gospel and the world looks at that and says I don't get that. Yeah, it did instead in happen anywhere else. That's exactly right.

Clint Clifton: That's awesome. John Mark. Thank you. Appreciate you spend time with me today.

John Mark Clifton: It's good to be with you cousin.

Clint Clifton: If you want to find out more about the work that John Marks doing you can

John Mark Clifton: stop by my house.

That's my address. I live at 16 our churchreplanters.com. Okay, churchpreplanters.com. Okay, they're just find me on social media at your own

Clint Clifton: social media. Also undo a Monday Facebook wife Monday evenings

John Mark Clifton: Monday evening.

Clint Clifton: Yeah, what's that called

John Mark Clifton: that it's Mondays with Mark.

Yes pride is an issue in my life. I'm battling it and then we do replant and. Revitalize and replant whatever it comes out on Thursdays. It's a podcast with Tom Rainer and I yes,

Clint Clifton: thank you. John Mark.

John Mark Clifton: Thank you buddy.

Clint Clifton: Does your church need a new website or maybe a logo? Well 180 is the ministry partner that you need to move your church for?

They've been working with churches and businesses for over 10 years and they have solutions for churches that are large and small. They also have Support options to help you run your own website. So go to 180digital.com that's 180digital.com and learn more right now. They're offering podcast listeners 20% 20% off of any website or branding project just for mentioning. The church planting podcast. 

Albert Miller: Thank you for listening to the church planting podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review of your favorite podcast.

Josh Turansky: Today's episode of the church planting podcast is sponsored by new city Network the church planting Ministry of MacLean Bible a special thanks to today's guest John Mark Clifton for taking time to join us Josh kuransky produce Today Show Zuki Bastion was our showrunner and her husband nick was our editor. Thanks to Hudson train ski, Marvin more Who provided administrative and web support for the program and last but not least. Thank you for listening all the way through to the very end of the church planting podcasting. Hey, if you'd like more information about our show, feel free to visit our brand new website www.churchplantingpodcast.org. There you can find all of our past episodes as well as notes and links from today's show. Be sure to tune in next week to the podcast. We will be talking with the one and only Dhati Lewis

Today we released the latest promo video for The Church Planting Podcast. We thought our subscribers would enjoy listening to it as well.

100 Questions and Conversation Starters

Also, Josh wanted us to make sure that we linked to his ethical framework for lying RARELY. It is called Graded Absolutism. You can read about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graded_absolutism

On this episode, Josh Turansky sits down with Johnny Hunt to discuss evangelism and church planting. Pastor Johnny has recently taken a leadership role at the North American Missions Board. This new role emphasizes evangelism in the local church. Here the link to the “Where’s your one” campaign.

Pastor Johnny Hunt is the pastor of First Baptist Church Woodstock in Woodstock, Georgia as well as the Senior Vice President of Evangelism and Leadership for the North American Mission Board.

You can find all things Johny Hunt here: https://www.johnnyhunt.com

Intro: This is the Church Planting Podcast. Thank you for tuning in! Every week, we sit down with leaders who are shaping church planting efforts. Here's your host Josh Turansky and Clint Clifton.

Josh Turansky: Hey, welcome to the Church Planting Podcast. My name is Josh Turansky and I'm joined here by Clint Clifton.

Clint Clifton: Clint Clifton is here.

Josh Turansky: In studio. Back in your office.

Clint Clifton:  Back in my office..

Josh Turansky: Hey, so uhmm.. I don't know what episode number this is. But every Wednesday,

Clint Clifton:  Yeah

Josh Turansky: We have an episode that comes out and recently we refresh the website and launched the Facebook page.

Clint Clifton:  Yeah

Josh Turansky:  Uhmmm..

Clint Clifton:  You know in less than one week like 500 people have signed up for the Facebook page that like joined on Facebook page, is that right?

Josh Turansky: Yep! Yeah. I paid my friends a lot..

Clint Clifton:  oh! Is that how it happened? Okay, that's good. And I knew you're rolling it.

Josh Turansky: exactly exactly know. So but we would love to hear from people

Yeah, we'd love to hear there's a button at the top of the Facebook page that says email us people can go to the website which is ChurchPlantingPodcast.Org and there's a contact page there's links to the social. Or sites, but it's great to get feedback.

Clint Clifton:  Yeah, really like that. I mean this week

I got a few emails that were really encouraging and uhmm.. I'd like some feedback that's things you'd like to see more on the podcast or just kind of so advice suggestions. You know, when you do something like this is a one-sided conversation. We're putting a ton of content out and you get very little feedback

Back, so whatever we get back a really meaningful to us. So be sure to send an email that's just make a comment on something you heard or

Josh Turansky: What could we cover more in? What questions do you have? Yep?

Clint Clifton:  Yeah

Josh Turansky: good. So again ChurchPlantingPodcast.Org will is the website and then from there you can get to all of our different social rights good

Clint Clifton:  Yeah, thanks

Josh Turansky: On this episode. We're going to be talking with Johnny hunt.

Clint Clifton:  Yeah, Johnny Hunt!

Josh Turansky: the famous.. the Infamous

Clint Clifton: Infamous Johnny Hunt. Yeah. He's a. Man, alive wire just you know, very rarely did I get to rub shoulders with somebody who has been in Ministry so long and had such a consistent impact over the years and Johnny's impact is in large part what he's done to develop pastoral leaders

Menu system amazing. He's got in everywhere. You see him. He's rolling deep. He's got guys with him and he's had a long Ministry of mentoring young men and know where do I go around the country that I don't meet people that were his interns or that worked with him and they're doing incredible things in Ministry today, so, He's not just a ferocious evangelist and a great apologist and a good spokesman for the kingdom

He is he's a mentor to a lot of guys and that that says a lot to me.

Josh Turansky: He is a yeah this interview that I had the conversation with him and you'll hear that in a second but he's very patient because he had a hard time finding where we were going to meet. Yeah, and I really appreciate his tenacity and chasing us down and

Clint Clifton: he didn't have a hard time finding it as much as we kept changing it

Josh Turansky: Oh, that's right.

Clint Clifton: That's right. It wasn't that wasn't his fault. Let's make him make that clear was our fault. Yeah.

Josh Turansky: Yeah and his he's got a great assistant that helped him find a way so. This is going to be this is this is a great topic where we touch a little bit on evangelism. We talked about the fact that he's got people that are following him around and being trained by him

Clint Clifton: Yeah

Josh Turansky:  uhmmm.. great. Great material anything else you want to highlight with

Clint Clifton: I would just say some of the listeners some of the podcasts guests that we have here are not on the podcast because they have planted a great church themselves or anything like that, but they're on the podcast because they're a champion for the church at large and they

Are a fan and a champion of church planting and that's Johnny for sure. I mean his story is he pastored really large church for a really long time and led them to great ministry. He led that church to plant many churches. He's been, you know, not to real category. I mean the Pastor that.. Passion to me for church planting is never planted a church himself and I think that if you're a pastor and you're listening to this and you hear all the talk about church planting are just like that's not me, man.

God may use you in a way to mobilize people and plant churches. That's far beyond what you could accomplish as a church planter yourself. So that's a real category one. You should embrace and that's Johnny's contribution to the church planting World

Josh Turansky: Strong point. Excellent. Okay, let's jump right into the episode with Johnny Hunt.

Johnny Hunt:

So you want to lead your church to multiply, but in order to do that, you have to raise up new potential leaders from inside your congregation. But how in the world are you supposed to do that with all the other plate you have spinning? Well, the North American Mission board is created a tool to help you equip the Saints for the work of the ministry

It's called the multiplication Pipeline and it helps you identify and train missional leaders, potential church planters and potential church planting team members from right there inside your own congregation the pipeline starts with a simple assessment tool and a three-year online training system follows to equip missional leaders

Learn more about the multiplication pipeline by visiting their website: namb.net/pipeline

Josh Turansky: Alright! Here we are. At the SBC convention with Pastor Johnny Hunt you have been a pastor for years and you've got the best smile in the SBC convention.

Johnny Hunt: They can't see it.

Josh Turansky: and recently you made a transition of leading your church to in this leadership role with NAMB overseeing evangelism. You have this incredible history of raising up leaders, helping guys plant churches

So let's let's talk a little bit about this recent transition help help people understand. What is your new role? And what what compelled you to take on this role?

Johnny Hunt: Thanks Josh. At Woodstock until the end of the year. So I'm helping transition a new Young Pastor Jeremy Morton and it's going fabulous

We're seven or eight months in and I will leave their Lord willing to end of December. And so I've dreamed of year for years of what I'd like to do in the last quarter of my life and two major areas is pastoral leadership, which I've done through Timothy Barnabas for 25 years. I've also mentored two pastors a year at my office for the last 25 years. So that's been a given in my life. And then evangelism, our church is always in every church I've served in 43 years have been leaders in evangelism. So I would like to challenge Southern Baptists to once again put evangelism on the front burner. And so I'm doing dual roles because I'm trying to do less at Woodstock and then I'm doing more with NAMB, but then come January 1 it will be 1 job.

Josh Turansky: Wow. Okay, so you were talking a little bit about your involvement interaction with church planting in LA some specific observations that you may tell us a little bit about that story

Johnny Hunt: NAMB asked me a few years ago, if I would become lead Pastor for LA Initiative and Woodstock would become lead church so I did, so I began to work with some of our NAMB employees out there. And so what they would like me to do is to go out and bring about eight of the pastor's in close to us and I would take I took over 200 passengers out there to see the work asking to be involved. So we would have like Banquets Town meetings for lunches and we would or even go to the campuses and say to the young Church Planters,

Tell us what God's doing how long you been here who you're trying to reach tell us about your ministry. Tell us about your needs because these guys were joining with them and I regret to say this but many of them had been there two and a half years. They went to you meet. We don't know. Sometimes we meet once a month sometimes as every other month

We're not meeting regular right now and try to get together with the guys. And so so what is your core group like it, you know right now as far as what we can depend on we've got seven I'm thinking, you know, there's 19 million people out here 19 million second largest city next to New York proper and I'm thinking wow and you know, You there's a way to say it

Someone says you can't see the forest for the trees do a reverse play. You can't see a tree for the forest. Sometimes such a mass - that you don't see anybody and so God help me today to see what you see feel what you feel love who you love so I would see that but then when I meet when I say we tell me about you know, what you're doing

I mean. Who are you witnessing to? Who is it your real passion about and it seemed like it turn more to demographics distances the people that live in that building, but it was it was all shaped in such a way that it was it was not personal and then on the other hand we would talk to those that were really on the move and it was, Hey pray!

Well, we've got these three families in our neighborhood that we're after we've invited him into our home. We're praying. We're carrying through prayer. I shared the gospel of first time with this one, but they had names they were after people we're in the people business and like saying relationship, so, take Matt Lawson at our church there in Burbank

I was just with him a few weeks ago. He had neighbors but he would be out in his yard and he would think Boyd a moment make it look I'm speaking and they just walked right by winning look, but then he began to think everyone's walking their dogs. So he took his children out in the yard and he put bowls of water and even some like dog biscuits

I thought it was so cool and in all the dogs would have go to and say, ‘Hey come and join”. I mean everybody around here's got a pet and while they were sitting and drinking the water and all then he would engage them or hey cute sun bear and they begin we've got a little boy and been engaging and they were always thinking of events they could do but to engage people to build relationship because I sent him out there

He had only spent a half a day in LA in his life. So this is not like I've lived out there that visited their lot gots capture my heart. He Supernatural is called, you know plant Advanced Pittman in Las Vegas 17 years ago 18 now, but Vance was an associate pastor had left a pastoring and I was preaching but I had got it laid Las Vegas on my heart and it was the fastest growing city in America 18 years ago, and I thought we don't have a significant Southern Baptist work out there

Or not enough. Thanks some I shouldn't put it that way. They were some significant changes, but Ian we planted him with three families? That was it has three families from Alabama For Heaven's Sake move into to the. And now, they enjoyed over 3,000 on the weekend of started over 40 churches from that one

So we have planted over a hundred church at Woodstock and we're not counting like he has to like say if we could there are grandbabies, but if we included those are Church plants probably pushing 300 well in others that we don't planted Paul godhardt out there. I mentored him for a year. So it's been encouraging but we've got to be in the people business

There's an old song that says God love people more than anything. That's the truth.

Josh Turansky: Wow. So just we're just having the numbers come out for the Southern Baptist in regards to baptisms confessions of faith, and the numbers are down and that's a trend that's been going on for almost a decade and you're stepping into this new role emphasizing evangelism and so tell me the story about the origins of this new role.

Johnny Hunt: Basically, that is a problem last year to Southern Baptist convention. They were lots and way of resolutions on the floor about hey, let's hold them accountable. They ought to be leading out and evangelism and sometimes gotten a mixed signal owners life way lead this or this NAMB, but the bottom line is the pastor is going to have to lead it. But someone does need to be out beating the drum keeping it in front of us is. We do with I am be or any other Ministry before us so in that context JD Greer begin to talk about who's your one and I had written material back in like 2007 just entitled one and so it resonated in my heart the biblical text and all and I thought this will work and we really we really have it

I shared it with 280 leaders yesterday, which was encouraging I was with our. Associational missionary strategist formerly the OMS and basically is the largest gathering they've ever had in the history of their movement. And so it really encouraged me hopefulness, but their boots on the ground across the convention and we've got a major major strategy, but here's what's going to have to happen

We got to stop the bleeding. We are bleeding. We're at a 1940 love. Oh in baptisms, so in continuing to get worse each year. The grace of God will stop the bleeding and then I really do believe we can turn it around and someone might say, well you really believe you can turn around. Oh, no, we can turn it around

It's going to be the pastor's of the Southern Baptist convention. So bottom line is I believe it all my heart they'll buy in and if they don't buy in we won't move the needle a moment, but if they do, I think we could see significant change just as we've seen significant change in the wrong direction

Josh Turansky: Well, so you have this background of working with one-on-one with developing leaders, which I want to talk with you about in a second. But as you come into this role of leading this Initiative for evangelism, it seems like a very high-level role. But the example of your ministry is very is mentoring one-to-one. So how do you affect change from such a high level into across 4747 thousand churches?

Johnny Hunt: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. So just like yesterday and really I thought about my message for a year to be with those guys yesterday and it's significant to be in that room because I got a text message last Sunday morning at like 5 o'clock in the morning said, pray for this pastor his mother just died and pray for this pastors follow just at who else knows that state execs can't know it national level can't know it sometimes pastors don't even know it but DOMs know what churches are open what churches are growing. I mean, they really are the boots on ground.

They're the ones that are messaging thee local church. They're the ones that can pick up the phone, go worship with them, visit them. So we want to keep it personal so it's really bottom-up still. So if I get with them and convince them of something that's reality. Number one, I love you, I'm for you, You are important

I mean, I don't know that I've heard a lot of people trumping lately that Association missionary strategies were the DOMs are really important. But I believe they can be important to our movement then. Secondly, I've made it a Ministry of training pastors a platform where a lot of pastors come to my Timothy Barnabas schools

So I engage with them we say we don't have a green room. I'm always with them. So I'm messaging them, but I'm also there. You know, giving them details of how they can be involved. Then you certainly tomorrow on our platform will give more of a national challenge. But when we go to a city for instance in our Hoosier want or have great music the churches we go to really really are already on the move but want to go to a new level and then we will really message not just for that state but within a hundred-mile radius.

My team at the name is going to really I mean just we're going to let those people know who should be in that room. And I'm of the conviction time will tell that will need our AV team to be set up for overflow and simulcast I believe everywhere we go the younger.

Josh Turansky: well, can we talk about evangelism philosophically

So there's a lot of different images that come to people's mind when they hear evangelism. You've got Crusades, you have Street evangelism. In my church. We kind of make a point of saying hey our primary means of evangelism is relational just being normal with people God's put around you. What are you emphasizing as you're talking with pastors? Obviously, one-to-one sounds highly relational.

Johnny Hunt: right? Yeah. And really in a way if we're going to really change the trend it's going to be all of the above. But the truth is it is relational. For instance. When we have one of the most beautiful stories of five significant New Testament people converted and seven verses of scripture in 1st John chapter 1 verse 35 through 42, it's here that Jesus undoubtedly leads Andrew to the Lord Jesus leads Philip to the Lord, Andrews goes in his brother, we got to get back to being faithful to share the gospel with our family what we say across the country is families the hardest people in the world witness to that becomes a self-fulfilled prophecy, which they think is an excuse not to share the gospel with a family who under Heaven could love my mother, my father, my siblings more than me are so I want to I want to I want to speak into a live at needs to go back to hell where it came from.

Number two, when Philip got converted he went for Nathanie,l who's Nathaniel his friend. So basically, I think it's friends, relatives, work associates, neighbors in the old days and seminary. It was the concentric circles. I'm at Starbucks regular have I ever shared a word we go on first name basis. I give them a gift at Christmas so that is it, it is a relationship, but then there's lots of people got put you in touch with I travel almost every day of my life. I'm on a plane, I'm engaged and I am engaging, sometimes I'm sleeping. But but I want to I want to be relational in our church the most effective witness and visits are somebody comes through and I say, hey stop by our connect desk.

I wrote a new book believe it or not. It actually was good and I want to give you a copy of it. They go by and get its tangible expression of our love and appreciation for them, 99% of a give us all the information we want because we've engaged them there and hey first time whatever and then we take those cards and they certainly are the easiest either make an appointment with or to drop by and say hey we simply came by to say thank you for coming however, in my travels people are telling me that churches they go to and fill out cards eight out of 10 of them never follow up. So it don't matter to you have the information if you're not after it, but then we we at Woodstock still do door-to-door visitation and we but it's We Care through prayers exactly what we just did when over 10,000 homes here at crossover

So it's both an it's Rick gauges and county seats that just had 8,000 people as crusading. 400 professions of faith in like three nights. It's not either/or. I mean we're going to focus on our local churches in different ones, but elect support all thank God for Franklin Graham Southern Baptist. Thank God for Rick. I mean Greg Laurie that we've partnered with and Southern Baptist life 3,000 professions of Faith last year in Dallas. It's a follow up. And we can pick and say 3000 who's going to follow up. I'd like to say this it is no greater burden that we call accountability follow up to 3000 and the fact that we follow it with the one that responds at our church something

Josh Turansky: Okay. So let's. Get a little bit into the weeds just for the sake of listeners, okay? So in as I think about my congregation looking at people on Sunday, I have most of the people there have a relationship with the Lord. And they enjoy church, but my frustration is getting more people to translate their faith into the day-to-day.

So we have a couple of things initiatives, but I just don't feel like I'm getting traction with my congregation. They love the Bible, they Love to Worship, but in terms of Monday morning living out their faith in an Evangelistic way on Mission just don't feel like I'm getting traction. What would what would you say if you stepped into that setting?

Johnny Hunt: First of all, I commend you for sizing it up because sometimes people don't even know where their church is. And if you're going to lead them to where you feel they need to be, you need to know where they are and then secondly, the commendation is, you're not satisfied with that. I think we have fallen into lethargy in our denomination because if I were to say to a congregation. Pray about God laying a soloing heart the way we used to pray it is this Lord lay some poor soul upon my heart and love that Soul through me.

So it's like Jesus when he talks about we need more workers in the Harvest. He said pray to the Lord of the Harvest that he would send more into his Harvest. Well, if I'm the one praying about Harvest, I think he's going to send me, I mean is it likes going burden somebody else if I've got the burden.

Josh Turansky:  Right. Yeah.

Johnny Hunt:  You know, so I'm going to God. If I were in your church right now, I would magnify the Hoosier one. I mean number one, you got our prayer God. Why did we do a prayer guide? Because it's not resources as much as they need a change of heart. Think about this if I stand up and just what you described and I would describe a lot of that it would stock.

All right, so I know where they are and they're not really engaging if I were to say to them. I want you to pray over the next week about not just anyone but Hoosier one. Is there somebody God's laying on your heart actually burdened about not just hey, that would be neat if I could witness that person and wind them, but somebody you really burdened about is it a sibling, is it a parent, a grandparent, a cousin, is it somebody you work with, somebody go to school with? All right, so they but the fact that they have to think for week or two to even think of a critical witness to who are they by passing?  Really not being ugly, but maybe we need to be jolted in the jolt needs to be you don't know your neighbors, you know, yeah, make it an effort who lives in front of you who lives on either side of you who lives on your street.

Have you ever done anything? To engage the people in your street or your neighborhood. So the fact that they don't even have anyone on the radar. It just shows where we are.

Josh Turansky: Yeah.

Johnny Hunt: How can we turn the trend? We were not even thinking lostness and I someone's asked me to think about it and it is it's good fault in that.

Are we even messaging wrong? Like hey, we got so many unreached people. Yes, they are unreached. But guess what? Jesus said they're lost. If you want to go step father. Jesus said that he that believeth not is condemned already. Not that they're going to be condemned. There are t in the state of being condemned just waiting to be cut off so that helped me with my father when I thought you know, if I don't get to Dad soon debt that's going to be condemned one day now dad already has condemned. He's in a state of of headed hell right now instead of he's going to go to hell he is going to hell. There's a difference so it really caught more. So you do the journal and then we give out the card and then we begin to really pray and you know, if they want to put with his first names you can put them on a board, have different prayer meetings where people come and then really celebrate when they come. So what if every one of your congregation was encouraged and listen to this, Josh? When I'm trying to cast this Vision, I'll talk about it tomorrow Lord, Wellington whole convention.  When I try to cast this Vision we baptized west of 450,000 people this year. We average in southern Baptists Life 5 million 2000 people and some change in our morning worships average in southern Baptists life

If 10% of your congregation 10% of mine 10% of our denomination only 10 Baldy in the Hoosier one just just use that and say we're going after one and be able to say, hey, I'm averaging a hundred. I've got 10 of my people and they were to be successful and win one this year. Not only will be double baptisms in one year.

We would baptize morning. We baptized in any given year since we were Southern Baptist convention since 1845 that is not rocket science. If only one-tenth how often do I want a cast vision and be satisfied but only 1/10, you know, hey, I would like you all to be here tonight. I'm casting Vision.

How did it go? Hey 10% of them came back. You'd be you'd be home crying asking. Your family too, you know pat you on the back rub your head.

Josh Turansky: Yeah. No man, that's powerful.

So it sounds like you're referencing some tools and resources are those things on a website or how do people connect with this initiative.

Johnny Hunt: WhosYourOne.com

Only sees to tour where I'm going to go to the cities all across America over the next two to three years. Lord willing. And we'll be in major cities in a close to hopefully everybody when it's all said and done we're encouraging to come in for. First of all, I think we're not even inspired to win people to Christ. There's something to be said about inspiration but also instruction, so I'll travel would say new song Charles Billingsley or alikes. And they all saying 1520's engage everybody in the congregation and worship and then I'll bring a message of real clear biblical message about where we are. And then the next morning feed you great breakfast all name and then at about 8:30 to 12:00 that we're going to have four in different cities different people some of the best instructors they are, that are doing it that will not only give you material whether it's a Jimmy Scroggins and he says, here’s 3 circles. Or whether it's James Merritt were putting together his four questions. So we're going to give resources but we do still know this, If God does it do a work in the heart give us a passion resources is not the answer but for those who are already passionately doing what they can with what they have. We're going to give them, encouraging resource stand with them. Steve Gaines has put together a three-hour teaching session that he can teach in about an hour. Just flying through it to give you a gist because guys are thinking when I get back home like say for instance if you said you were going to do your, who's your one, we will encourage over about five weeks? Whether it be some testimonies of people that have led people to Christ, messages challenging messages of God, aligning our hearts with his, he came to seek and to save that which was lost. What is the Great Commission these statements? The gospel is good news only if it gets there in time, you know, I don't want the people in the community to not be warned.

He's he killed three Ezekiel 33 all the various reasons we ought to. But the main thing is, you know, God break her heart for what breaks yours what breaks his he went every time he wept it was over Nations people. So we think that we can not only give a Clear Vision of how to get there and what we want to do but resource you to do it as well.

So we feel like we've answered all the questions but there you can download the devotions free, you can download the the Who’s your one cards. Testimonies there provide videos for you to just share in your church to just really emphasize them. Like one by JD, one by me. This 45 seconds is just emphasizing just one just one and then we're already hearing the stories of a.. in three weeks, I got focused. God’s turned my heart and one one one young pastor called the other day and said alright going to give my testimony. I'm not would not baptize anybody for years. He said in the last three months we baptized. That will turn the trend because most of our churches are small the vast majority have of our church is about vocational but good leaders.

Josh Turansky: Yeah,men great. Okay, so we'll link to those resources also in the show notes when this goes out. Let's let's turn to leadership development because this is another passion that you have. And you've been doing this for years. It's not just something that you're talking about from an ivory Tower, but it's something that you've practiced and modeled years and years and years.. Why is this something you care about?

Johnny Hunt: Yeah, you know, basically, I am what others have invested in me. I mean when you look back over your life, you know, they say the older you get the more you reflect. The lips love to read the Psalms the Psalms are very reflective and oftentimes, it's David telling a story of his tough time but how he won the victory. I mean, they really are Psalms of ascent. I mean it's once he got out of it, but it tells what he went through so I reflect a lot and I look back on it, I think I can, I'm 23 years old. I don't even have money to go to school and raised by single mom. Dad checked out when I was seven, raised in a project, you know High School Dropout and then God saved me and here comes a guy named Alfred  Joiner and I've got a question and he's got an answer. I've got a Bible but it's brand new to me. And he begins to teach me the Bible, he begins to take me out and I'm able to observe him witnessing but he did something I need to do better and he threw me in threw me and he just be out talking to some rough guy and he'd say hey, I'm glad Johnny's with me because Johnny Johnny wants to take a moment to tell you what happened to him three weeks ago.

And that really is what witnesses doing is telling what happened to you how you fit into this is God's story. So I look back on that. And so three years,I went never mentioned anything about Alfred now. I hardly ever preached a sermon especially in discipleship. Don't talk about Alfred investing in me and we're still connected even though we're in different states and all and then the person God raises up to say, hey the Lord laid it on my heart to pay for your education, buy you some clothes. I mean, God's met me just like you met Elijah with bread and the water flowed in the brook and God provided for him sent Ravens to feed him with these are the Ravens of my life. They just two legged and. In skin so I mean the develop me so I look back on it and at every point somebody was there pouring into me.

So I wrote a lesson out of my heart entitled, The Stewardship of Influence. So here's what I ask five questions. And fifth question is why I lead? who influenced you? when? why? how? Here’s the question? What have you done with the influence? Have I allowed that to be a deposit in me that's given this given a return and so basically I feel that I need to take what they put in me and then do the same thing for others.

So my wife and I have practice helping someone to stay in seminary a college ever since we got on our feet because someone did the same thing for us. So we want to do for others what has been done for us. So we did that and then I look at that and I think most people research it shows does not have someone to believe in them.

Most don't believe in themselves. If you do believe in someone they will know it and know what they know it. They'll do everything they can to make you proud of them. So I have taking young pastors. Some people always ask me, what did you Santana just teach him. No? Jesus and his discipleship, the key word is he was with them.

So I just let them go with me. They got a deacons meeting with me then go to a finance committee. We got my staff meetings. My staff retreats, travel overseas with me. I do some pretty decent expenditure in library that I say you need to read these books or are there some books you want to read and I want to purchase.

And then it's as they hear me in daily life. Then when we're together by herself. They begin to say Hey, you made a decision there and I just knew when they asked you to question you were going to say this, but why did you say this? You know how I make decisions? They're able to see how if I do practice Grace in dealing with some hard situations that are brought up and staff.

So they learn that way. So after this meeting today, I'm entered a guy probably 10 years ago. He's now Seminary graduate been pastoring for years. So I'm in the gym this morning. Oh  my God, I can't believe I ran into you. So we're going to meet after my meeting here and to again continue your mentoring so it goes on and on and on. So these guys, you know remembered her over 50 some years, I did three because I did International students just an international student just graduated from Southwestern Seminary, but when I trained him that was not on the scope, so it's helped them to believe in themselves and which most don't and they know I believe in them. And so I've kept an open line so my phone's inbox always full of emails. Answer calls or texts in from what guys say. Most people won't return your call. Most people don't answer your emails. I personally answer all of my own emails. And so that's why I can't sleep late late at night. And so but I really stayed engaged with them and I think that may be why God helps to platform.

I've done so much. I've traveled so many years. I've done State evangelism, Pastors conference, convention, led to Convention, led to pass camera. I've been there but I've been there on a level of knowing them and I'll give you this piece when God began to bless me Jimmy Draper in his 80s now and he just wrote a book

I wrote the forward to it is entitled. Don't quit before you finish great great book, but basically he said to me when I was in my 30s late 30s God. Seems to really be blessing you. Would you really pray about bringing Next Generation with you? But it just kind of like, okay, what the hell does that mean.

So I had to make my mind up? Today, I could be in some significant meetings, you know special meetings of the large Church round table or whatever, but I may choose to be with the guys in the two hundred churches for lunch and that type thing the younger leaders and I've done that for so many years.

Well, now those young leaders are becoming the nationally known leaders. So now I can continue to network with them and maybe even influence them to be effective in the ones coming behind them. But I've watched God raise people up people can say boy that Jeff Crook is quite a leader in my heart. I can say I've been mentoring him over 20 years. Boy, look how God is using John Cross been with him for over 20 years. Wow, the Devon's done well. Spend a year with him, we continue to mentor the young man that is becoming the map and the pastor of my church. He's started following me and he was 17, 20 years ago, 10 years ago started coming almost schools. Three years ago started saying, well I meet with him like on a monthly basis or so to speak into his life.

I didn't know he was going to be the one to follow me. I mean, so yeah, God was raising them up. 

Josh Turansky: so the push back your get you probably get is I'm a pastor. I'm so busy. How do I have time for that?

Johnny Hunt: Yeah. Number one. We all have the same amount of time and it really and I write in this area in leadership is time management and a lot of people just aren't managing their time well.

We really have time to do everything, we consider important. I encourage guys that if you got someone you less you always I really really want to do this, but I'm just so busy. I can't get to it. I said you're really frustrating yourself take it off the list because it's not important that you would have done it.

You know, I'm date my wife every week. It's important. I'm going to have special times with my children and grandchildren. It's important. I know I need to meet my staff. I want to be very prepared when I preach so you got to do that. So I sleep. I'm not a six and a half seven our guidance all I require but I go to bed at 10:00 and I'm normally up about five so I get into the day people need to know their best time today.

My best time today is in the morning. So I give my mornings to the Lord to my research. And that type thing. So this year, I'm producing three books different areas help with a lot of help with some of them, but you can do it, you know if it's a priority and you know how to work with deadlines and yet I want to learn to really practice margins.

So when I leave here, got some couple speaking engagements, a week away when my wife next week, speaking engagements.Take  July off. But what I do in July I think a lot of reflecting a lot of, write a lot but but only in the margins of the day, you know, I'm an early riser. My wife is a night owl. So I got me a good three or four hours and one for she gets up.

So go to work and when she gets up, Hooo! Just been waiting on you.

Josh Turansky: So listening to you talk about this. It sounds like you have no regrets of mentoring guys for years and it's been really rewarding.

Johnny Hunt: Yeah, 90 year olds were asked recently. If you could do life over again, what would you do different and though we get the more you think about it? Wow, what would I do differently.

Here's what they said. I take greater risk.  I would reflect more but I would invest more in that which will outlast me. How could you possibly when you talk about your church and how you can leave them? The greatest investment you'll ever make is in them because the day will come that you have a generation your age and you will be much older.

And they will continue.. able Hebrews 11:4 through his dad yet. He speaks people will still be speaking that we invested in. I love to quote my dead friends. I mean honestly like to say I want to say it Adrian Rogers said it forever and I want to say it for him now that he's with the Lord. And I quote him I do the same thing with Ron Dan with Ben Hafner, with John Phillips.

You know, I heard John so many times when I'd say, I'll never forget here. John saying it hear John say it again through me, you know, so

Josh Turansky: awesome. Well Pastor Johnny, thank you so much for giving us 30 minutes of your time investing in future Church Planters current Church Planters on both these things evangelism leadership development those..

That's that's right where the rubber meets the road for these guys that are out there. So

Johnny Hunt: The real Joy, thank you very much.

Josh Turansky: Appreciate it.

 Narrator: I want to let you know about another incredible podcast that's hosted by today's guest Johnny Hunt. Building a culture of personal evangelism in your church begins with the leader on the evangelism podcast Pastor Johnny aims to equip pastors so that they can equip their churches to share the hope of the Gospel with the world tips and tools and encouragement of a lifetime a lifetime of personal evangelism training you can find the evangelism podcast with Johnny hunt anywhere you find podcasts Apple, Google Play, Spotify. That's evangelism with Johnny Hunt.

Narrator: Thank you for listening to the church planning podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review of your favorite podcast.

Josh Turansky: Today’s episode of the church planting podcast is sponsored by New City Network, the Church Planting Ministry of MacLean Bible. A special thanks to today's guest Johnny Hunt and for taking the time to join us Josh Turansky produced Today Show Zuki Bastion was our Runner and her husband Nick was our editor Thanks to Hudson Sharansky and Marvin more Who provided administrative and web support and last but not least thanks to you for listening all the way through the end of the church planting podcast. Hey, if you'd like more information about the show, feel free to visit our brand new website at www.traknetpm.com cast dot-org there

You can find all of our past episodes as well as notes and links. From today's show. Be sure to tune in next week to the podcast. We will be talking with John Mark Clifton.

Dr. Kevin Smith leads the staff of the Baptist Convention of Maryland/Delaware. He has experience as a pastor, chaplain, church planter, conference speaker, and short-term missionary. He has studied at Hampton University, the Church of God Theological Seminary, and The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, subsequently serving on Southern’s faculty for over a decade. In 2015, while serving the Highview Baptist Church in Louisville (KY), he was elected president of the Kentucky Baptist Convention. Kevin and his wife, Patricia, have three adult children and two great-nephews. His hobbies include whatever sports his kids were playing and riding his Harley-Davidson motorcycle. His ministry is animated by Jesus’ prayer for the unity of His followers in John 17.

Clint’s Church Planting Book: Church Planting Thresholds

Albert Miller: This is the church planning podcast. Thank you for tuning in every week We sit down with leaders who are shaping church planning efforts. Here's your host Josh Turansky and Clint Clifton.

Josh Turansky: Hey, welcome to the church planting podcast. My name is Josh Turansky and I'm joined here by Clint Clifton back in the studio 

Clint Clifton: back in the old Studio. Hey, Josh, how you doing today? I'm doing well. Yeah, how are you doing? I am good really good. Yeah a little bit little bit sick of traffic and Washington and Baltimore where we live.They there's a lot of traffic in this Zone 

Josh Turansky: there is there's four million people between. DC and Baltimore, I think 

Clint Clifton: between the two cities? I think seven million in DC and two million in Baltimore.

Josh Turansky: yeah two million in Baltimore. 

Clint Clifton: Yeah. There's a lot of people. We're talking 10 million in the region. Yeah, something like that.

Josh Turansky: Wow. It's yeah, it's a lot. So you have written a book on church planting. This is something you've been deeply invested in for most of your life. Yeah, your vocation is church planting. 

Clint Clifton: So yeah the book really flowed out of the fact that in the church I planted had been planting churches and the guys that were being raised out of the congregation were receiving call the church planting inside my church, were looking to their Pastor to tell them how to do it. And so I would set up a meeting with them. I’d say hey man, let's meet up. I'll teach you how to plant a church. Of course, I didn't know how to tell them how to plant a church. But before that meeting I would have to prepare and so I would just write write stuff up. So I ended up, over the course of the few years with different Church Planters writing specific lessons for that individual person in mind, you know, and that ended up with a little bit more than 40 articles about various subjects the related to church planting. I remember one of the articles was called was called “Johnny the Church Planting Pirate” I just had like these funny for them and they were all on just lessons I learned in church planting - things that I wish I didn't know when I got started. And and they were more practical than they were biblical. I don't mean that to say that they weren't biblical but It was really “just in time” kind of practical training. So anyway, those articles developed into what now is Church Planting Thresholds.

So we condensed those articles into ten stages of the church planning process. It starts with calling trying to figure out if you're really called to plant a church in it. Finishes up with multiplication. The the intended purpose. Is that a pastor who wanted to disciple someone in his congregation to plant a church would have a guide to do that with.

Throughout the book there are these rectangular boxes in the book and it says, “do this thing now” I was just try to be as practical as possible. You need to overcome this barrier right now. 

Josh Turansky: Yeah. Now it's a good resource for guys that are out there and that's problem kind of with church planting resources they're not practical and so… Church Planting Thresholds. We’ll share a link to it in the show notes this week. 

Clint Clifton: There's an audio version of it. There is a Spanish version and a Russian and Amharic version on their way. We're trying to make it available as much as possible and nobody's making any money off the book. We're using all the proceeds to help start churches. And so I just use it liberally will give it away liberally. So just any way we can be helpful to you. Let us know. 

Josh Turansky: great. Okay, let's talk a little bit about this episode. In this episode you interview Kevin Smith. What's his title? He's like the president of the BCM/D.

Clint Clifton: He's the executive director of the BCM/D which is the Baptist Convention of Maryland and Delaware and I feel like this is the time where all the podcast listeners tune out like, “oh a denominational guy” we don't want to hear this. 

Josh Turansky: Hmm. I hope not. I'm about to this guy Kevin Smith is awesome. 

Clint Clifton: He is awesome.

Josh Turansky: Yeah, and he marches to the beat of his own drum. 

Clint Clifton: Yes. It does. 

Josh Turansky: If you follow him on Instagram, you see he drives his Harley around. 

Clint Clifton: He's a middle-aged African-American man who preaches like nobody's business and he's a fantastic preacher and he drives a Harley.  

Josh Turansky: But there is there is that push back out there about denominations. I have people that come to my church and then and they say well I was looking for a church that was non-denominational. Denominations have kind of have been seen in a bad light more recently. So so make a pitch for it.

Clint Clifton: Yeah. Well, I mean forget the word denomination, just go back to Christianity. Is their biblical precedent for Christians working together you to plant churches and to spread the gospel? President for having compassion on the poor and the vulnerable and the orphan and the Widow? Should Christians do that only in their local church, or should they do that with other Christians? Who share their convictions? Well, obviously almost all of us would say, yes! for sure. You should do that with other Christians. Well, that is what our denomination is. I mean and yeah, granted, denominations have, at times gone off the rails they've done crazy things but the age of denominations is not dead.

It's manifesting itself in a new ways with networks and other things but it's definitely not dead. I would argue that it's thriving. 

Josh Turansky: The denomination that Kevin Smith is a part of. And where he's got a leadership role is not so much about control as much as it's about collaboration.

Clint Clifton: It's about collaboration specifically for a mission. A collaboration around the Great Commission. In fact, to be accurate, the Southern Baptist convention as an organization only exists for that one purpose, to collaborate around the Great Commission.

Josh Turansky: Yeah, well good.

Hopefully the listener gets a lot out of this episode this conversation and I would recommend follow Kevin Smith on Instagram. 

Clint Clifton: He's a great Twitter follow too. I don’t know if Twitter still thing people use today. He’s super funny and he goes off on rant sometimes about various things. He's real socially aware, but he's also gospel minded.

Josh Turansky: He’s definitely got some good input. Especially on races race issues that's not what he's harping on but he's a good voice and if you're a white guy living in the suburbs, planting in the suburbs, pastoring in the suburbs, and maybe your friends are all white you need to follow Kevin's on Twitter.

Commercial: Hey Church Planters. Your calling is to plant a church, but churches are also a business auxiliary partners with you to provide one time and ongoing Business Services. Enabling you to stay focused on Mission visit auxilio Partners to learn more about the finances HR and legal compliance services offered and schedule a free consultation. That's auxilio.partners. Mention the church planting podcast to receive a 20% discount.

Clint Clifton: Dr. Kevin Smith. Thank you for being with me on the podcast. 

Dr. Kevin Smith: My pleasure brother. Appreciate you very much. 

Clint Clifton: Yes, so you have an interesting background and you're just an interesting character in The SBC altogether. There's so many interesting things about you. So I just want to talk about some of those things.

So can you can you tell us a little bit about how you got to this situation and that you're in right now? 

Dr. Kevin Smith: Yes, probably. Almost 28 years ago. Now I desired to plant a church in a public housing development area in Chattanooga, Tennessee and other local pastors that I knew a particular Southern Baptist pastor was the main one who kind of responded with some interest in church planting.

Clint Clifton: So we're you telling baps before that. 

Dr. Kevin Smith: I'll Church a church. I was ordained in was duly aligned with the Southern Baptist convention and the National Baptist convention. Kind of more culturally National Baptist. But in that particular moment now remember talk about 28 years ago church planting is like a buzzword now, it wasn't 28 years ago.

And so this Southern Baptist pastor was the only person I knew was talking about church planting and the Tennessee baps convention in North American Mission board had a wonderful partnership. And we planted there in Chattanooga Tennessee Okay, Morris Hill Baptist Church was I'll send the horses sponsor church at that time was the terminology and we were in partnership with the Tennessee baps convention and just went back recently celebrated the 20th anniversary of that church plant.

Yes, sir. 

Clint Clifton: And what was the church plant called 

Dr. Kevin Smith: love? Baptist church, and we were over in the southeast part of Chattanooga Tennessee, which is my wife's home went from there and doctoral studies at Southern Seminary and then teaching at Southern for well over a decade 

Clint Clifton: you planted before you went and did your doctor.

Dr. Kevin Smith: Yes. Okay. Yes. I was doing my m.div at the Church of God Theological Seminary. So I've got a little Pentecostal spicing me. I have better pneumatology than most Baptist. Then we went to pasture while I was in Louisville past it Watson Memorial Baptist Church about a then probably about a 60 year old historically black congregation brought them in the southern Baptists life out of.

Conviction theological conviction and also belief that kind of miss the illogical methodology to reach the nation's with the gospel. Then with the High View Baptist Church as teaching Pastor large mostly white church and African-American in the pulpit and we just had a good time there then had the opportunity to come to Maryland Delaware believe it or not as a pastor.

I've always appreciated and always participated at committees and things and state commission life. Life Wayne am everything, but I said, you know, I would never be one of those denominational Geeks and three years ago. I became one of those denominational Geeks the executive director of the Baptist Convention of Maryland, Delaware.

We're about 500 plus churches different languages every Sunday probably little bit under 40 different languages are spoken in the Baptist convention, Maryland, Delaware. We had we are a Sin City is within our midst which is Baltimore. If you're not familiar or send cities are our church planting emphasis as Southern Baptist in the 32 largest metro areas in the US population wise we need to add Orlando in.

And then I was also we're also bumping up right next door to another Sin City, which is Washington DC our nation's capital. We love the work. I became a denominational nerd because I really. Thrive in like every Kendrick tribe tongue and nation and so how can you take 500 churches different languages different ethnic makeup within the congregation Merlin has some of the wealthiest counties in the country and Maryland has some areas of sharp Parvati.

So how do you take all that in Maryland Delaware to States and have a unified Cooperative effort of sharing the gospel in Maryland, Delaware and Beyond to the nation. And so that's why we're here and that's what we're seeking to do. Yeah. 

Clint Clifton: Why did you why did you start your career out in church planting are your ministry out in church planting?

What was it about church planting than originally attracted 

Dr. Kevin Smith: you.

Some of the churches I've been in and then church today. I served briefly had a very insular kind of mindset that fact. I served the church where people use of criticized the congregation for having the attitude of us for no more. And then also there's kind of a sometimes as a success kind of element within American Christianity, which means I want more people but also, A larger budget more money and so it's the gospel is good news to everyone including the poor.

I was just real burden for like a congregational life this not just driven by giving units and economic models, but believing that the gospel is for anyone those kind of Errors work are characterized by welfare. Unwed mothers irresponsible guys kind of hanging around the perimeter. And before then I had before I was a pastor.

I was a chaplain in the jail. So I've always had a heart for like individuals that I think. Wanting to be successful congregations don't necessarily see how them and so I think the gospel is for everyone. And so we can't have a class element to American Christianity and that was my burden regarding church planting 

Clint Clifton: but thinking about your context the African-American church context the idea of a young aspiring Pastor going out and planting a church.

That 

Dr. Kevin Smith: was that was foreign 

Clint Clifton: it well in my mind. You probably received a lot of pushback. 

Dr. Kevin Smith: Yes. Oh, yeah, I think sometimes churches that have not engaged. I mean there were other churches on the in the areas of this public housing development, but that development wasn't necessarily on their mind all the time or giving priority in their Outreach and then sometimes like.

Charges just weren't willing to do whatever it took to reach those people that were in that area particularly people that don't have a church background. Yeah, and so we can't be as traditional as we are used to being and we just had a tremendous burden in a core group of people who desire to reach that area with the gospel some who have grown up in that area and moved out and moved on and some who were from that area and just desired to see a gospel witness in that area.

Yeah. 

Clint Clifton: Well you are. Known for being a pretty clear and outspoken voice on all sorts of matters racial matters. Basically, you just speak your mind on a variety of matters yet. You keep getting elevated and denominational. I for two positions will why is that? What is it? What is it? You know, why can so many other guys that would speak as candidly as you do get.

Kind of criticized sharply and shut down and 

Dr. Kevin Smith: I think one thing is I try as best. I can when we're engaging tough issues. If we're going to convict the consciences of fellow Christians. I think we need biblical language and use biblical categories. And so I tried to address heart issues. In biblical category.

So the culture our culture talks about race outer culture talks about racial wreck. I'll culture has a lot of ways of addressing tensions between people of different colors. Where as I've come into those conversations and Ephesians 4. Verse 3 when Paul says Endeavor to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

And so I want to challenge God's people to do whatever it takes to push forward towards Christian Unity that thing that Jesus prayed for in John chapter 17, so I want to be overly an extremely and rudely biblical and making hard arguments to God's people because I think the word of God and the spirit of God Christ are the only things that will convict our conscience for example.

In the areas of class. I want to talk about the way people work together in Acts chapter 2 whether they had a lot or whether they had a little like right now people are barking about what categories you use to understand. Justice in a society or some people. What do you mean by social justice, so I don't like the term social justice of screw all that.

Jesus said in the great command love your neighbor. So in your particular Ministry contacts, how are you following that and obeying that one as a follower of Jesus Christ? And if your pastor to how are you leading your congregation to corporately do that. I mean, I don't want to like spend all day whining about categories and languages.

Let's use the scripture. And use biblical categories. So however, you term it Jesus said love your neighbor. However, you term it God said in the Old Testament sometimes Israel was acting righteously, sometimes they were acting unrighteously, sometimes they were acting justly sometimes they were acting unjustly.

Tickly as regards how they were dealing with the poor. And so I think the best way to have hard conversations as root yourself. In biblical language biblical categories. I'm thankful for the insights of what we would call a common Grace sources scholarship sociology research all those kind of things but we're trying to convict the conscience of a brother or sister.

We need to use Clear biblical categories and biblical language 

Clint Clifton: that's helpful using biblical categories. But when I think about you, I mean I can think of other examples of people who use biblical language biblical categories when they talk yet somehow they're there. Incredibly offencive showing its there's something about you that you can you found that place where you can say the river very hard thing and you can say a very directly usable categories and somehow your received with warmth.

Dr. Kevin Smith: I think that's from just being a pastor. Yeah as a pastor of a congregation you're trying to build up God's disciples. You are not trying to win an argument. I think sadly too many brothers. When I say Brothers, I'm still gonna like pastel leaders and just influence by like cable news and the broken dysfunctional bipartisan mess in Washington DC rather than Shepherd like Tendencies of the Lord Jesus Christ or even the way Paul or John or Peter or James with a dress and exhort the.

We come into these describe pray we come in these discussions as pastors as Christian leaders seeking to exhort brothers and sisters. And then if we engage in an unbeliever, we come as Witnesses of Christ hoping to gain the hearing of an unbeliever not just to win an argument or offend them. I mean, I'm in Ubers a lot.

I'm on airplanes a lot. I mean coffee shops. I go to Harley rallies. I've never seen anyone like bow their knee. And repent to Christ because I won an argument, right? Oh, I show them how their argument was stupid or wrong. People are one to Christ when we highlight Christ Lift Up Christ and extend that offer to them.

So I think I hope the pastel sensibilities really leave me in that way, I think about you know, Older sisters that I've passed it. Yeah. Older men that I've pastored young ladies young men. I think both those relationship dynamics of Paul with Timothy treat the older men as father's older women as mothers and younger women with younger women as sisters with all Purity.

And so I just try to be mindful of those things. 

Clint Clifton: Yeah, so there are 42 if I remember right State conventions. Yes in the Southern Baptist convention are. The only African-American leader, I am of those 

Dr. Kevin Smith: I am a while back the. State exec and California was from Central America and he has resigned but I'm probably I think I'm the first you know.

United States of America black afro negro type leader in that setting so, you know, I love of a fully and truly. Southern Baptist convention there was the African-American leader of the District of Columbia Baptist convention, but that's more of a conglomerate of a lot of soup rather than like a Southern Baptist convention.

Clint Clifton: Well what has kept you engaged in southern Baptists life as an African American whose convictional clear on racial issues. Certainly, you see some of the problems in the SBC what has kept you engaged 

Dr. Kevin Smith: just that burden for Jesus prayer in John 17 that his disciples would be one so that the world may know that you have sent me if American Christianity is always from colonial era till now characterized by racial divisions ethnic divisions.

Sometimes class divisions. I think that just undercuts our witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That little purpose statement. They are really weighs heavy on me Father. May they be one as you and I are one so that the world may know that you have sent me. I mean we'll have thousands Southern Baptist over here.

The annual meeting will be talking about missions and America we talk about missions to the ends of the Earth and a lack of Christian Unity that Grieves the spirit undercuts that mission. Yeah, and so that's why I'm here. I mean, I understand I'm thankful for the seven. Historic black denominations the United States methodists Baptists and Church of God in Christ Pentecostal and I understand how they exist because they came about in the 19th century and the end of the 18th century just because of the racial Strife in our country and I understand why they still exist because they're still racial strife and our country, but me as an individual follower of Jesus Christ.

I'm really burdened by John 17 and Ephesians 4. And those are kind of the motivating passages for how I think about engaging the larger body of Christ. 

Clint Clifton: So talk to the young African-American church planter Pastor that is on The Fringe of association with the SBC and really doesn't think he wants to be involved.

Dr. Kevin Smith: What I would say is number one in many scenarios you able to plan. That church because of the Cooperative efforts of Southern Baptist with guava program and I landed strong Antioch strong Easter offering number two.

It is so she national level or stay conventional level. There are relationships that you could lean into that would be very edifying and encouraging to you. You know one thing I try to tell people think about the math is 46 thousand plus southern baptist churches. So I mean, it's got to be like crazy uncles and weird cousins, but there's so many other people that would be such an encouragement and.

Encouragement to in building up for you. For example, I mean there are over 4,000 congregations in Southern Baptist convention there like mostly African-American or mostly Mexican or mostly Korean or agents. I mean, there's a lot of congregations lot of passes a lot of leaders where you can find great and wonderful fellowship and that's a last of all we all want to encourage each other to the ends of the Earth.

I mean, I'm black and people use the terminology African American so I'm concerned about. The gospel on the continent of Africa, especially when corrupt things like the Prosperity Gospel from the pits of hell. I'll try to have influence in Africa. So through the international Mission board my baby, even I have a three-year partnership with the Baptist Convention of Kenya we're able to be in all kinds of countries on the African continent.

So if you're concerned about the gospel, if you're concerned about church planting if you want partnership you want other people to be able to push you in those Endeavors. I'm very thankful for. I'll missions methodology and I've seen it bear fruit. Also, I have friends in every denomination.

Yeah, and I will say this Paul said we've not yet apprehended. No denomination is heaven and I have friends that every denomination and they can tell you what irritates them in their particular denomination. That's just part of us working working out outside relation with fear and trembling and also.

One of those one another's in the scripture says for bear with one another some of that is US putting up with one another. So I'm thankful for black brothers and sisters and the historic. African-American denominations of black church, I'm thankful for African-American brothers and sisters in the Southern Baptist convention.

I'm thankful for African-American brothers and sisters and other denomination. I'm thankful for any person who is seeking to lift up the name of Jesus Christ and declare the gospel. And I think if you're about a certain type of missions methodology, the Southern Baptist convention is a wonderful group of brothers and sisters to partner with it's a large family.

But it's I think the wonderful group of partner with 

Clint Clifton: well, we work together. We have had the chance to work together for the last couple years and Baltimore and then in Washington area. So let's just for a minute. Let's make a pitch for our for our cities. 

Dr. Kevin Smith: Yes, 

Clint Clifton: and tell people why they should come work with us 

Dr. Kevin Smith: a few years back.

There was the Freddie gray incident in Baltimore that for a lot of people put Baltimore on the map. Since the 1830s Baptist's in Maryland and Delaware have been thinking about big population centers like Baltimore, Maryland Baltimore is a diverse City Baltimore as a transitional. And there's a lot of Brokenness at a lot of different levels of society.

And so I would encourage you to pray for cities like Baltimore where we can share the Gospel of Jesus Christ where we can show people that there's dignity and being created in the image and the likeness of God regardless of their status or any of these American measurements of the value of your life, but you are valuable because you are created in God's image and God loved you so much that he sent his son.

As the payment for sins that you might be forgiven and have eternal life in him and then down the road. We have Washington DC which is the nation's capital. So obviously there's a lot of trust and worldly power and political power and I would encourage you to pray for church Planters and existing congregations in the DC area because many times as people.

Pursue Earthly power pursue political power even sometimes in a corporate world, they can achieve some of their goals and then get to a certain place in life where they where the reality becomes. What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul between Washington and Baltimore.

I mean, we have important and wealthy and quote successful people commit suicide have serious drug habits. Struggle with alcoholism are some will just functional alcoholics. And so that it's clear that the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The love of God. The Light of Christ is needed in our area and I would ask you to seriously pray about pray for our churches pray for our efforts.

If you're not in that in the area of the country and you have people write raised up in your church, they want to be part of a core group. If you have people raised up in your church, perhaps would like to do an intern or residency and one of our colleagues. Relations and be a church planter. We would love to help you call out the called in the Washington DC Maryland Delaware area.

We would love to partner with you and I ask you to consider that yeah, it all field is the field is wide open. Yeah 

Clint Clifton: all these Stars. Have to align sometimes to make church planting really take off in an area and sometimes those those stars are Financial leadership and all kinds of things but I don't know about you but I feel like in our region right now.

There's more alignment than there's ever been. Yes, and I'm excited about the progress that we're seeing the churches that are being planted are being planted by faithful Godly humble joy-filled, you know, tenacious hard-working guys that. Just dedicating themselves and the churches are being a lot more successful in terms of we've seen in the past to so 

Dr. Kevin Smith: and I'm excited because of many of our Planters have a.

Biblical attitude towards loving their neighbor and so they want to do well and they want to bring good. To the public school down the street. They want to bring good to the boys club on the YMCA up the street. They want to bring good to some challenging areas. And as we do that we're able to let our light so shine that people see our good works and glorify our father.

So I'm very thankful that we are obeying the Jesus command love our neighbor and we're not fussing about terminology. We're trying to figure out the best way to obey Jesus command in my particular neighborhood. For example, we have churches that can. Go through their name, if you know more of a poor or undeveloped area, we can't we have abilities for congregations to go through neighborhoods and give out smoke detectors.

Yeah, okay, we bringing good to the neighborhood because you certainly don't want someone in the unprotected home and we're also providing an Avenue to develop relationships and meet men and women boys and girls in that neighborhood. So I'm very thankful for where we're able to serve. 

Clint Clifton: So you have been in so many different Arenas you're an academic.

You've been a proper Professor. You've done lots of pastoral work. You've started a church. You've let it denominational entity all those things, you know make you a really unique individual and Southern Baptist life and you're an African-American leader all the all those things make you unique, but talk to the church planter for just a minute, you know with the scope of all that you've seen and all those different things and just a couple, you know nuggets of advice if I come off top of your head to the guy who's just.

And often church planting and pastoral Ministry. 

Dr. Kevin Smith: Nothing is more important than the relational emotional spiritual Fellowship that you have with your core team. I know many times. We are excited to launch and we're excited about those kind of things but for the emotional and the spiritual undergirding of a church plant, I think the core team development is so important.

So I would encourage any planter as a pastor of a new Gathering of Believers lean into those relationships. Secondly, I would tell you don't despise the day of Small Beginnings because however 22 flush years later my wife and I are still. Of our most substantial relationships with Brothers and Sisters in Christ are people we set up with every Sunday and then broke down with every Sunday.

So don't despise the season of setting up and breaking down because you are just like really digging into relationships and then thirdly you just have to find areas. To be engaging people who are not followers of Jesus Christ. I know some of our brothers have spent a lot of time studying at Seminary and they admire their professors and sometimes they really think well, you know how maybe ministry will be a life of study it's a life of study but it's also a life on the street.

Yeah. Well you engaging men and women about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I think those three things are just tremendously valued the core group and. Chip and spiritual under pending matter the relationships you develop in those small days while y'all are setting up and breaking down and then just being a man on the street.

I mean no the fire chief know the police chief know the local principal of the middle school elementary school and high school. If you have neighborhood associations know the neighborhood association president those kind of things are vital because the church is geographically somewhere for a reason I believe in the.

Warranty of geography God has placed you there for a reason and so know that. 

Clint Clifton: Dr. Smith. Thank you so much. You're its variation. 

Dr. Kevin Smith: Thank you. My brother. 

Josh Turansky: Thank you for listening to the church planting podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review of your favorite podcast. Today's episode of the church planting podcast is sponsored by new city Network the church planting Ministry of MacLean Bible a special thanks to today's guest Dr. Smith for taking the time to join us. Josh Turansky produce Today Show Zukey Bastien was our showrunner and her husband, Nick, was our editor thanks to Hudson Turansky and Marvin Moore who provided administrative and web support for the program and last but not least thanks to you for listening through to the very end of the church planting podcast.

If you'd like more information about the show, feel free to visit our brand new website at www.churchplantingpodcast.org there. You can find all of our past episodes as well as notes from today's show. Be sure to tune in next week. We will have on the famous Johnny Hunt.