In this episode, Dcn. Harrison Garlick, Chancellor and General Counsel of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa, welcomes Dr. Zena Hitz, a tutor at St. John’s College and founder of the Catherine Project, to discuss Aristophanes’ comedic masterpiece, The Clouds.

The episode dives into the play’s biting humor, its critique of Athenian society, and its timeless questions about education, piety, and moral decay. From the Thinkery’s absurd teachings to the mysterious Clouds, Dcn. Garlick and Zena unpack the play’s relevance to modern audiences, exploring themes of social ambition, familial breakdown, and the consequences of abandoning traditional values.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more!

Check out our Patreon page for our library of written guides!

Key Discussion Points

• Aristophanes and The Clouds: Born around 446 BC, Aristophanes, the father of comedy, wrote The Clouds in 423 BC, nearly a decade into the Peloponnesian War. The play, a revised version not performed but circulated for reading, critiques Athenian decadence and intellectual trends through the story of Strepsiades, a debt-ridden father, and his son Phidippides. “Aristophanes in general is interested in portraying through this kind of ridiculous, sometimes slapstick, sometimes obscene comedy, certain truths” – Dr. Zena Hitz (16:47).
• The Thinkery and Education: The Thinkery, led by Socrates, teaches deceptive rhetoric and speculative inquiries, parodying new intellectual movements. It raises questions about education’s societal role. “The question about what an education is for and whether it helps the community or hurts it is a very basic fundamental question” – Dr. Zena Hitz (19:53).
• Piety and Political Stability: The play links reverence for traditional gods to social cohesion, showing how the Thinkery’s impiety destabilizes family and polis. “Belief in the gods is standing in for… sticking to the moral code that’s keeping the whole society together” – Dr. Zena Hitz (31:08).
• Socrates’ Portrayal: Socrates is depicted as a buffoonish sophist, but his role is ambiguous—possibly a stand-in for broader trends rather than the historical figure. “Strepsiades is the target… Socrates in a way is just being used to show something up about Strepsiades” – Dr. Zena Hitz (44:01).
• The Clouds’ Role: The personified Clouds, worshipped in the Thinkery, symbolize deceptive speech and align with comic poets, adding complexity. “Clouds cover things up. So there’s some kind of image for deceptive speech” – Dr. Zena Hitz (49:20).
• Socio-Economic Context: Set in a wealthy but decadent Athens, the play critiques social ambition and debt, mirroring modern struggles. “It’s in a way a very American story” – Dr. Zena Hitz (24:00).
• Moral Precedent and Human Nature: Strepsiades’ attempt to bend moral standards for gain backfires, reflecting universal human flaws. “You never want the full consequences of that one piece of wrongdoing… It never works out that way” – Dr. Zena Hitz (33:47).
• Translation Challenges: The episode highlights the importance of choosing a translation that preserves Aristophanes’ puns and humor, with recommendations for Arrowsmith and Sommerstein. “The translation on the Aristophanes actually matters a lot” – Dcn. Harrison Garlick (54:58).

About Our Guest

Dr. Zena Hitz is a tutor at St. John’s College and the founder and president of the Catherine Project, a nonprofit offering free, open-access reading groups and tutorials on great books (CatherineProject.org). Her work spans classical philosophy, focusing on law, character, and the human good, while her popular writings explore freedom, education, happiness, and faith. She is the author of A Philosopher Looks at the Religious Life, which examines the paradox of total renunciation in pursuit of happiness. Find her at ZenaHitz.net or on Twitter/X.

COMING UP

Next week we discuss The Frogs by Aristophanes with Tsh Oxenreider and then we'll circle up for a round table on the Greek plays as whole. AND THEN we launch into PLATO with an introductory episode and then two episodes on our first dialogue: First Alcibiades. Join us!