Ascend - The Great Books Podcast

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and guest Dr. Gregory McBrayer dive into the fiery third part of Book One of Plato’s Republic: the showdown between Socrates and the sophist Thrasymachus.

Thrasymachus bursts onto the scene “hunched up like a wild beast,” roaring that justice is nothing more than “the advantage of the stronger.” What follows is a masterclass in Platonic drama and pedagogy—complete with forced feedings, blushing, and precision battles over definitions—as Socrates methodically unravels the sophist’s position.

And THANK YOU again to the Classic Learning Test for sponsoring this episode.

Dr. McBrayer and Dcn. Garlick explore why this confrontation matters so much. They compare Thrasymachus to the even more ferocious Callicles of the Gorgias (which Dr. McBrayer also discussed with Dcn. Garlick on Ascend) and discuss whether Socrates truly refutes him or merely “out-sophists the sophist.” They also go back and forth on the famous shepherd-and-sheep analogy, the arts-versus-money-making distinction, and the early hints of the philosopher-king and city-soul analogy.

Along the way they surface deeper questions that haunt the rest of the dialogue: Is justice a real thing or merely a name the powerful give to their own advantage? Why does Plato bookend the Republic with religious myths? And how much of Book One is a deliberate deconstruction meant to clear the ground for Glaucon’s more serious challenge in Book Two?

More Resources on Plato’s Republic:

1. How to Read Plato
2. Reading schedule, podcast calendar, and more!
3. GUIDE: 12 Questions on Book One of Plato’s Republic
4. Republic Bk 1: Intro, Prologue & Cephalus with Dr. Alex Priou (327a-331d)
5. Republic Bk 1: Polemarchus with Dr. Grabowski & Thomas Lackey (331e-336a)

Whether you’re a first-time reader still finding your footing or a returning student who wants to wrestle with one of the most famous attacks on justice in the Western tradition, this conversation models how to read Plato slowly, dramatically, and in good company. Tune in for sharp analysis, unexpected humor, and a clear sense of why Thrasymachus still feels so familiar—and so dangerous—today.

Be sure to check out our entire reading schedule, so you can be sure to read alongside us.

A good path is before us.

Let’s take it and ascend.

Chapters

00:00 — Introducing Thrasymachus and the end of Book One

13:00 — Thrasymachus and Callicles: comparing the “nasty” challengers

21:00 — Thrasymachus’s dramatic entrance—and why to take him seriously

31:00 — “Justice is the advantage of the stronger”

40:00 — Ruling as an art, and Socrates’ argument

52:00 — The shepherd, the sheep, and Thrasymachus’s shifting claims

66:00 — The soul, leadership, and the reluctant ruler

81:00 — The penalty of being ruled by someone worse

93:00 — Justice, injustice, and Thrasymachus’s defeat

106:00 — What Book One establishes—and what it leaves unresolved

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we continue our slow, beautiful pilgrimage through Plato’s Republic. Last week Dr. Alex Priou walked us through the opening and the dialogue with Cephalus. This week we focus on Polemarchus, Cephalus’ son who inherits his father’s argument.

We are joined by two excellent guides: Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dean of Faculty at Holy Family Classical School, and Mr. Thomas Lackey, independent scholar and a longtime friend of the podcast.

Today, we ask what is owed and to whom.

“Shall I be your heir?” Polemarchus takes his father’s definition and attempts to provide a standard: Friends owe friends some good and nothing bad. Notice that the concepts of friendship and the good enter the Republic. Polemarchus’ name means war-lord, and the opening of the Republic made him look like political force, maybe even tyranny (commanding Socrates to wait). In the argument, however, he shows himself to be a good-faith interlocutor. Lackey notes that the Piraeus will later be the center of the revolt against the Thirty Tyrants (the puppet government set up by Sparta over Athens after the Peloponnesian War), and that Polemarchus will die by drinking hemlock (the same death Athens will later condemn Socrates to). The line about being “an heir” applies more directly to Cephalus, but in a way could apply to Socrates as well—Polemarchus is an heir to Socrates, someone who loves wisdom and then dies by drinking hemlock.

Further Resources to Help You Read the Republic:

1. GUIDE: 12 Questions on Book One of Plato’s Republic
2. Republic Bk 1: Intro, Prologue & Cephalus with Dr. Alex Priou (327a-331d)
3. How to Read Plato
4. Reading schedule, podcast calendar, and more!

Justice means to benefit friends and harm enemies. That is the Greek cultural default observed in the Oresteia and in Oedipus at Colonus. Socrates then asks: what is the art for? The man useful for keeping a deposit is also useful for stealing it. Then the harder question: Is a friend the man who seems good, or the man who is good? The one who decides can be wrong. The last turn is on the word harm. A first reader may hear a pacifist. Horses and dogs that have been harmed become worse in the virtue of horses and of dogs—but the just man cannot make a man more unjust. After they agree not to harm anyone, they call themselves partners in battle—a notable juxtaposition. The conversation is interrupted before Polemarchus can fully work through his aporia, his bewilderment.

Be sure to check out our entire reading schedule, so you can be sure to read alongside us.

A good path is before us.

Let’s take it and ascend.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the dialogue and main themes

02:06 Who is Polymachus and his background

11:55 Polymachus inherits his father's argument on justice

20:54 Definitions of justice: giving to each what is owed

27:20 The significance of logos in the dialogue

35:34 Expanded definitions of justice and their implications

42:16 The role of techne and moral knowledge in justice

52:25 The teleology and purpose of justice

01:02:53 Historical and cultural context of the characters

01:17:22 The development of the concept of Arete

01:23:04 The objective versus voluntaristic understanding of justice

01:28:35 Humor and pedagogical style in Plato's dialogues

01:31:03 Conclusion and preview of next week's discussion

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we start our slow, beautiful pilgrimage through arguably the most important book in Western philosophy: Plato’s Republic. It is about justice and whether justice is more profitable to the soul than injustice—but along the way it provides rich conversations on the soul, virtue, education, metaphysics, and the afterlife. If you read this book and read it well, it will change your life.

And we have an excellent guide and mentor to walk us through the opening of Plato’s Republic and the dialogue with Cephalus in Book One (327a-331d), Dr. Alex Priou who currently serves as a professor of political philosophy at the University of Austin.

Today we start something life-changing.

Plato is philosophy. To summarize a famous line, all of Western philosophy is a series of footnotes to Plato, and Plato’s Republic is his masterwork. He does not offer you a sterile, intellectual idea that is neat to contemplate—he makes claims on your soul. For Plato, philosophy is transformative. The goal of the pursuit of wisdom is to have a good soul, a beautiful soul.

Further Resources to Help You Read the Republic:

1. GUIDE: 12 Questions on Book One of Plato’s Republic
2. How to Read Plato
3. Reading schedule, podcast calendar, and more!

“I went down to the Piraeus.” The famous opening line gives you much to contemplate, and Dr. Alex Priou is a wonderful guide. We have the verb of descent, which will be important to the entire text, and we have the Piraeus, the port of Athens, which is hosting a new festival to a new goddess. Moreover, Socrates narrates the entire Republic to an unnamed listener who never interrupts… but this allows Socrates to give commentary on the argument he otherwise could not. Dr. Priou shows us how the prologue to the Republic is simple but rich with meaning—a great introduction to how Plato teaches.

In the house of Cephalus, age, wealth, and the old myths give the first account of justice. Asked the greatest good of his money, the old metic does not speak of friends or food. He speaks of the myths he laughed at when he was young, and of the peace of facing them without unpaid debts. Justice, for him, is telling the truth and giving what one owes. Socrates asks whether you return a borrowed weapon to a man who has gone mad. Cephalus cannot defend the rule he has lived by. He laughs, leaves the argument to his son, and goes back to the sacrifices. Cephalus leaves, but his conversation will haunt the entire Republic—as the text begins with a descent and religious myth and will end with an ascent and a religious myth.

Be sure to check out our entire reading schedule, so you can be sure to read alongside us.

Also, thank you to the CLASSIC LEARNING TEST for sponsoring our first month of Plato’s Republic. They are a really excellent group of people trying to change the landscape of education in America. Go check them out.

A good path is before us.

Let’s take it and ascend.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Plato's Republic and guest Dr. Alex Priou

02:01 Why read Plato's Republic today?

04:05 Historical and dramatic context of the dialogue

06:05 Dr. Priou's background and love for Plato

08:00 The purpose of the Republic and its themes

10:03 The setting and composition of the dialogue

11:57 The character of Cephalus and traditional justice

14:01 The significance of the Myth of the Cave

15:49 The pedagogical method of Plato's dialogues

18:13 The role of myths and poetry in philosophy

19:57 The purpose of the Republic and its relevance today

22:11 The character of Polemarchus and justice as friendship

23:50 The challenge of understanding the dialogue's structure

26:12 The importance of rereading Plato's works

28:07 The character of Thrasymachus and cynicism

30:06 The significance of Socrates' narration style

32:06 The allegory of the cave and ascent to truth

34:13 The role of myth and poetry in conveying truth

35:47 The balance between tradition and innovation in the Republic

37:51 The practical purpose of the dialogue

40:00 The limits of human knowledge and the form of the good

42:03 The political and moral lessons of the Republic

43:57 The significance of justice as a personal and political virtue

46:12 The character of Cephalus and his traditional views

48:02 The transition from traditional to philosophical justice

49:59 The role of Socrates in guiding the dialogue

51:56 The importance of self-knowledge and inner reflection

54:05 The myths of the afterlife and their philosophical purpose

55:58 The ongoing relevance of Plato's Republic

Join us next week as we continue our studies on Plato's Republic!

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we are preparing to read Plato’s Republic (we start next week!). Before turning to that long and demanding text, we ask a simple question: how do you read Plato well?

Plato does not write treatises or lectures. He writes dialogues, and the setting, the characters, the irony, and even the moments of confusion (aporia!) are part of the teaching. The podcast takes up the questions that help a first-time reader get started on the right foot. Overall, however, we do not read Plato to “be smart” or brag we’ve read Plato. We read Plato to have a beautiful soul. We take him seriously as a teacher who can help us pursue the true, good, and beautiful.

Here is a list of the major questions that are discussed on the podcast today:

1. Why read Plato?
2. Why is the drama important?
3. Are the dialogues historical transcripts?
4. What is the Socratic method?
5. What is Socratic irony?
6. What is the art of dialectic?
7. What is aporia?
8. What is eros?
9. What is pleonexia?
10. What are the parts of the soul?

Again, we read Plato to better understand the good life and to have a good, healthy soul.

Be sure to check out the MASTER CALENDAR for our reading schedule for Plato’s Republic. Also, if you’re interested in a deeper dive into eros, see "Rediscovering Holy Eros” (one of the most popular articles on Ascend). Moreover, you can read more about pleonexia and its dangers at “The Greatest Threat to Your Freedom is You.” Last week, to prep for the Republic, we published “How to Read Plato’s Republic like C.S. Lewis.” Finally, regarding Socratic irony, read “How a Man Pretending to be Drunk Helps You Read Plato.”

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to reading Plato and its significance

01:00 Why reading Plato is essential for philosophy

02:20 Understanding Plato's teaching through dialogues

06:29 Preparing for the Republic: preliminaries and questions

09:07 Why read the Republic and its moral importance

13:23 How to approach reading Plato's dialogues

26:06 The Socratic method and dialectic explained

33:01 Understanding Socratic irony and its purpose

39:31 Recognizing patterns in Socratic teaching

47:11 Eros, love, and the soul in Plato

55:43 Upcoming plans for studying the Republic

Next week we start Plato’s Republic!

Everything you need to know is here: "How to Read Plato's Republic with Ascend."

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we end Short Story September with “Bartleby, the Scrivener: A Story of Wall Street” by Melville - a seemingly simple tale about men in a law office that becomes a puzzling, existential tale. Dcn. Garlick is joined by two excellent guests: Mr. Joey Bremer, a teacher at Holy Family Classical School and an iconographer studying at the King’s Foundation School of Traditional Arts in London, and “Montana” of Montana Classical College, an anonymous scholar who runs an X account that shares incredible insights on Melville’s Moby Dick.

Overall, “Bartleby, the Scrivener” is a perplexing, existential tale that tends to quietly unsettle you by revealing the realities of modern life.

CHECK OUT THE NEW ASCEND BOOK CLUB

This episode of Ascend takes up Herman Melville’s “Bartleby the Scrivener: A Story of Wall Street,” a quiet, unsettling tale whose central figure answers nearly every request with the same spare formula: “I would prefer not to.” The conversation lingers on the contrast between that stubborn preference and the narrator’s own softness—an elderly lawyer who prizes the easiest way of life, cannot quite govern his office, and keeps mistaking indecision for charity. Names, nicknames, dull eyes, and the cramped windows that look onto other walls all become clues: who in this world still possesses a will, and who has already been reduced to a role?

Listeners are invited to sit with the story’s larger questions rather than resolve them. What does the monotonous labor of copying do to a man? How does a commercial, conventional life flatten thumos and leave even well-meaning people lukewarm? Why does Bartleby’s refusal feel at once more human and more deathly than the quirks of his co-workers? Drawing on the textures of Moby-Dick and the aporetic spirit of Plato, the discussion treats the tale as a puzzle that rewards patient attention—an invitation to notice what modernity may have done to the soul, and to return to the text itself with sharper eyes.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Melville and 'Bartleby'

00:12 Introduction to the episode and main themes

02:05 Biographical context of Melville's life

03:47 Overview of 'Bartleby the Scrivener'

06:54 Themes of monotony and human will

09:59 Character analysis: the narrator and Bartleby

14:57 Philosophical and literary connections

20:05 Implications for modern life and office culture

25:00 Concluding thoughts and interpretations

44:30 Dark passages and existential reflections in 'Bartleby'

45:25 Repetition of life and the prison of modernity

46:24 The loneliness of Bartleby and the narrator's solitude

46:56 Prison as a metaphor for societal dehumanization

48:02 Bartleby's awareness of death and existential insight

50:24 The role of the dead letters office and existential suffering

51:29 Melville's possible critique of modernity and capitalism

53:06 The dehumanizing nature of copying work and modern labor

55:07 Bartleby's refusal as act of will and control

57:47 Reason, preference, and the will in Bartleby's choices

01:00:20 The significance of small acts and existential meaning

01:02:19 Melville's relationship with Plato and classical philosophy

01:09:24 The philosophical underpinnings of Melville's critique

01:12:10 The aporetic nature of the story and open-ended interpretation

01:15:15 Comparison with other literary characters and philosophical figures

01:18:36 Fate, free will, and the acceptance of mortality

01:21:55 Melville, Plato, and the modern crisis of human nature

01:24:52 Final reflections on the story's philosophical depth and relevance

CHECK OUT THE NEW ASCEND BOOK CLUB

We have BIG NEWS! We have launched the new Ascend Book Club!

Ascend: The Great Books Podcast has partnered with “The Ascent” here on Substack to transform it into the new Ascend Book Club to offer you the most comprehensive online book club focused on reading the great books and living a beautiful, virtuous life.

You’ll receive the same great content as before but with much more—which now includes:

1. Weekly podcast and videos on the great books
2. Weekly articles on the great books
3. In-depth, detailed pdf guides on the great books
4. A monthly LIVE Q&A for supporters

We are also publishing years of articles, guides, videos, and other resources to the new site and organizing them by work and author so they are easy to find—tons of resources on Homer, Hesiod, the Greek plays, Plato, Dante, and more. You could start reading many great books today with the Ascend library.

Check out our new website, the Ascend Book Club, and join us today!

Join our reading group and study the great books with us!

Our next big read is Plato’s Republic this October, check out How to Read Plato’s Republic with Ascend for everything you need to know.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and His Excellency Eduard Habsburg, Archduke of Austria and former Hungarian ambassador to the Holy See, discuss Neil Gaiman’s short story “Chivalry.”

Before they turn to the text, Eduard speaks with warmth and candor about his family’s eight centuries of Catholic identity, the vocation of family in an atomized age, his decade in Rome, and an unexpected love of stories that runs from screenplays and Ghibli films to the understated magic of Gaiman.

What follows is a close, affectionate reading of a story in which the Holy Grail turns up in an Oxfam shop, Sir Galahad knocks on a widow’s door for tea, and the most English understatement imaginable meets Arthurian quest. Together they trace Mrs. Whitaker’s loneliness and ritual, the knight’s unironic goodness, Marie’s transformation, the slugs in the garden, the three gifts of youth and immortality, and the moment an old woman quietly refuses what does not belong to her life.

Eduard reads the tale as homage to Englishness and as a call to accept the adventure when it arrives, while Deacon Garlick asks whether that same ordinariness can also flatten what ought to remain extraordinary. It is a warm conversation on the charming short story, “Chivalry.”

We are currently finishing SHORT STORY SEPTEMBER! Next week, we will discuss “Bartleby, the Scrivener” by Melville, the author of Moby Dick, with two excellent guests. Read it this week and join the conversation!

We’ll then have an introduction to Plato’s Republic on 9.29.26 and launch into Plato’s Republic on 10.6.26. Check out How to Read the Republic with Ascend for everything you need to know.

You can read the great books with the Ascend Book Club!

Join us.

Dcn. Harrison Garlick lives in rural Oklahoma with his wife and five children. He serves as a deacon at Holy Family Cathedral and as Chancellor & General Counsel for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa. Follow him on X at Dcn. Garlick or Ascend.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick is joined by the always wonderful Alberto Fernandez to discuss "Red Shadows," a salvage tale of Solomon Kane by Robert E. Howard.

Check out our website for our reading schedule, articles, written guides, and more.

Dcn. Garlick and Alberto discuss Robert E. Howard’s 1928 Solomon Kane tale “Red Shadows,” a pulp adventure chosen as a lively Short Story September “palette cleanser” after heavier classical reading. Howard (1906–1936), the Texas-born creator of Conan the Barbarian, produced hundreds of stories in a short life. Alberto first encountered him through the 1960s–70s Lancer paperbacks with Frank Frazetta covers. Kane, Howard’s only recurring explicitly Christian series character, is described as a grim Puritan-Cavalier mix with pagan and philosophical streaks—“God’s angry swordsman”—a remorseless wandering avenger who rights wrongs he encounters by chance.

The story opens in the French countryside when Kane finds a dying young Catholic woman assaulted by bandits led by Le Loup (“the Wolf”). The stranger’s death prompts Kane’s vow that “Men shall die for this,” launching a relentless pursuit that takes him from France across Europe to the West African jungle.

There the narrative juxtaposes Kane’s grim, driven sense of justice (he sees himself as a “vessel of wrath”) against Le Loup’s cynical evil, tribal politics, the witch-doctor N’Longa, voodoo, jungle drums, and “blood memory.” Unlike the mirthful, vitalistic Conan, Kane is cold and mysterious even to himself. The climax features a duel framed as cosmic justice versus injustice, followed by a second, primal coda in which a gorilla avenges his mate—showing that nature itself can enact justice and that Kane often needs allies to complete vengeance.

Alberto highlights Howard’s youthful ambition (he wrote the story at 21), his debt to adventure writers like Edgar Rice Burroughs and H. Rider Haggard, and the way Africa becomes a recurring, almost inescapable landscape in later Kane tales. He recommends the Del Rey edition and especially the later novella “Wings in the Night” as Howard’s finest Kane story. Both hosts note the stories’ value as high-energy, well-crafted adventure that can later be shared with sons, and they close by pointing listeners toward the next Short Story September episode on Neil Gaiman’s “Chivalry.”

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Robert E. Howard and Solomon Kane

02:13 Howard's Background and Literary Influence

04:37 The Character of Solomon Kane and His Morality

08:36 Howard's Philosophy and Moral Duality

11:02 Why Red Shadows Was Chosen for Discussion

14:48 Beginning of the Story: France and the Dying Girl

16:52 Stranger Motif and the Western Influence

19:10 Cain's Vengeance and Inner Drive

22:50 Primal Justice and the African Setting

26:53 Howard's Use of Africa and Its Significance

32:52 Howard's Publishing Journey and African Themes

36:07 The Role of Ilonga and African Characters

43:49 Eternal Forces: Justice and Injustice

45:58 The Ending: Gorilla and Primal Justice

50:49 Howard's Final Warning and Blood Memory

54:41 Recommended Follow-up Stories and Howard's Legacy

Keywords

Solomon Kane Red Shadows, Robert E. Howard Solomon Kane, Ascend Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick, Alberto Fernandez, Weird Tales 1928, pulp fiction, sword and sorcery, God’s angry swordsman, Conan the Barbarian comparison, Tower of the Elephant, Le Loup the Wolf, N’Longa witch doctor, G’loka the Gorilla Slayer, Short Story September, Del Rey Solomon Kane, Wings in the Night, Moon of Skulls, Hills of the Dead, Puritan avenger, vengeance for a stranger, West Africa jungle, blood memory, jungle drums, Howard pulp adventure, 16th century historical fantasy, Christian hero pulp fiction, Frank Frazetta, Centaur Press Solomon Kane, Lancer paperbacks, Argosy rejection, eighty dollars Weird Tales, grim Puritan Cavalier, vessel of wrath, justice versus injustice.

NEXT WEEK we discuss Neil Gaiman's "Chivalry" with His Excellency Eduard Habsburg, the Archduke of Austria.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick is joined by Dr. Joseph Boyne to discuss Flannery O'Connor's "Enduring Chill" as part of Short Story September.

Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule, articles, and a whole host of written guides.

Asbury Fox, the failed New York writer who returns home to his mother’s dairy farm convinced he is dying a tragic, Kafka-esque death, meets a rural doctor, two farmhands who refuse to share his resentment, and a deaf, one-eyed priest from Purrgatory who simply walks him through the Baltimore Catechism. What begins as another Southern Gothic confrontation with pride becomes something rarer in O’Connor: a dark comedy in which the protagonist desires of a romantic death are met with an enduring chill.

Dr. Boyne and Dcn. Garlick draw out the story’s autobiographical shadows, its critique of performative liberalism and abstract love of humanity, and the way O’Connor uses both the Jesuit in New York and the homely Father Finn to insist that meaning—and grace—cannot be manufactured from the self. The conversation lingers on the water-stain dove that descends as ice rather than fire, the question of whether the tale is comic or merely purgatorial, and what it means for those of us who prize the Great Books that education, by itself, is never enough.

Listeners who have been scarred by “The Lame Shall Enter First” will find this one far easier to finish—and far more unsettling in its quiet demand that we keep living.

Chapters

00:05 — Podcast intro and the reading plan for Short Story September

01:01 — Introducing Enduring Chill and Dr. Joseph Boyne

03:21 — Why Dr. Boyne picked the story

05:00 — Flannery O’Connor and the Southern Gothic tradition

12:55 — The grotesque, violence, and grace in O’Connor

20:32 — Asbury returns home and the education theme

30:30 — Asbury’s desire for a meaningful death and the Jesuit in New York

41:42 — Dr. Block and Asbury’s confrontation with illness

50:00 — The dairy farm, the black workers, and failed communion

57:13 — Asking for a priest and the dream sequence

70:29 — Father Finn arrives and subverts Asbury’s expectations

80:31 — Randall and Morgan return

85:34 — Dr. Block diagnoses the illness correctly

87:40 — Final scene: the Holy Ghost in ice and the enduring chill

96:23 — Closing reflections on O’Connor and the story’s meaning

Keywords

Flannery O’Connor The Enduring Chill short story analysis, Ascend the Great Books Podcast Short Story September episode with Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Joseph Boyne of Tulsa Community College, Southern Gothic literature, Catholic short stories, Christ-haunted South, Asbury Fox character study, Jesuit priest Ignatius Vogle, Father Finn from Purgatory, Baltimore Catechism, Holy Spirit as ice instead of fire, undulant fever raw milk irony, performative liberalism and racial condescension, education versus practical wisdom, grotesque as medium of grace, O’Connor comedy versus tragedy, Good Country People comparison, lupus and autobiographical elements, Great Books education critique, upcoming Plato Republic series, Robert E. Howard Red Shadows Solomon Kane, Neil Gaiman Chivalry with Archduke Eduard Habsburg, Herman Melville Bartleby the Scrivener.

Dcn. Harrison Garlick hosts a full house to discuss the short, strange, forgotten dialogue of Plato's Ion, subtitled "On the Iliad."

10 Question Written Guide on Plato's Ion

Visit our website for more information!

Plato’s Ion opens with a victorious rhapsode who claims to speak more beautifully about Homer than any other human being. Socrates grants the premise that a true rhapsode must not merely recite but interpret the poet’s thought to his hearers—and then tests whether that excellence is a techne, a teachable art that should apply across all poets who treat the same subjects.

Ion fails the test. He is “asleep” except when Homer is mentioned. Socrates therefore offers another account: poets and rhapsodes work not by craft but by divine mania. The Muse is a lodestone, and poet, reciter, and audience form a chain of possession. Ion recognizes himself at once. On stage he is outside himself, and he can move twenty thousand hearers to tears and terror (with a subtle nod in the dialogue about the desire to make money...).

The dialogue then presses the distinction between speaking beautifully and speaking correctly. On charioteering, medicine, and the other arts present in Homer, the expert—not the rhapsode—speaks rightly. Unwilling to admit he has no art at all, Ion seizes the last remaining claim and declares himself the best general. The identification is absurd, and the conversation nearly collapses. Socrates leaves him a choice: to be called unjust, or divine. Ion takes the latter. Skill and inspiration remain unreconciled. What the short work has done is place poetry, possession, and the education of the city on the table—and prepare the larger judgment of the poets that the Republic will make.

Chapters

00:00 - Welcome to Ascend and overview of the episode's purpose

01:05 - Introducing Ion and the returning and first-time guests

02:29 - Erik Rostad explains Book of Titans and his lifelong reading project

06:28 - First reactions to Ion and its perplexing character

07:11 - Preliminary framing: subtitle, translation, and why the dialogue matters

10:10 - Ion's claim to be the finest speaker on Homer

11:44 - What techne means in this dialogue

20:00 - Does Ion really claim knowledge, or only beautiful performance?

23:50 - Ion's claim that no one else speaks more finely on Homer

28:37 - The question of poetry as a better educator than philosophy

31:03 - Ion admits he dozes off when other poets are discussed

38:45 - The magnet metaphor and the chain of divine influence

44:32 - Is divine inspiration irrational, or can it be a real source of truth?

55:31 - A third sense of possession: skill, demonization, and being subsumed into beauty

60:15 - Ion says he watches the crowd and adjusts for money and effect

62:49 - Does Ion have a real art, or is he just managing audience response?

70:29 - The charioteer, the physician, and whether Socrates is being fair

72:26 - Does philosophy itself become a narrow specialty in the same way?

76:03 - Why actors may be excellent performers but poor explainers of their craft

78:10 - Socrates as a guide toward self-recognition of Ion's actual techne

87:25 - Plato as storyteller and the philosopher's need for a better story

90:20 - Storytelling, parables, and the pedagogical power of narrative

92:37 - Plato's self-reflection on his own art and craft

94:36 - The unresolved tension between inspiration and skill

99:44 - Closing thanks

Keywords

Plato’s Ion, On the Iliad, Ion of Ephesus, rhapsode, Homer, Iliad, Odyssey, technē, techne, divine inspiration, mania, theia moira, magnet metaphor, lodestone, Muse, speaking beautifully, speaking correctly, kalos, orthos, Socratic dialogue, forgotten Platonic dialogues, aporetic dialogue, poetry versus philosophy, education of the city, Republic Book 10, poets as imitators, Allan Bloom, Thomas Pangle, Roots of Political Philosophy, Debra Nails, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Thomas Lackey, Jack Drury, Erik Rostad, Book of Titans, Ascend the Great Books Podcast, rhapsodic contest, Asclepieia, Epidaurus, generalship, polymathy, Plato as dramatist.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Larson, Dr. Grabowski, and Mr. Thomas Lackey discuss the short, strange, and forgotten dialogue of HIppias Minor or "On the Lie."

8 Questions on Hippias Minor Study Guide

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Plato’s Hippias Minor is a short, strange dialogue with a traditional subtitle that cuts straight to the point: “On the Lie.” After the boastful sophist Hippias finishes a public speech ranking Achilles the best and Odysseus the most polytropos—the man of twists and turns—Socrates is drawn into a conversation that begins with Homer and ends in one of the deepest aporias of the early dialogues.

What starts as a dispute over who is the better man, the straightforward Achilles or the wily Odysseus, quickly becomes a rigorous examination of voluntary versus involuntary wrongdoing, the nature of knowledge and power, and the unsettling claim that the man who does injustice on purpose is better than the one who does it by accident.

Deacon and the guests work through the dialogue’s sharp arguments and its surprising relevance. The conversation exposes the limits of treating virtue as mere knowledge plus power, raises the question of whether a just person might ever speak falsely for a good end, and serves as a genuine appetizer for the noble lie in the Republic.

Come listen—and discover why even Socrates, at the end, cannot agree with himself.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Hippias Minor and its Context

04:55 Setting the Scene: Hippias' Speech and Socrates' Role

09:22 Hippias' Boasts and Socrates' Irony

17:55 The Homeric Heroes: Achilles and Odysseus

25:04 Knowledge, Power, and the Art of Lying

36:15 The Distinction Between Capacity and Action

44:53 The Nature of Truth and Falsehood in Socratic Dialogue

46:43 Conclusion: What Socrates Reveals About Knowledge and Lies

02:39 Socrates' questioning of Hippias and the nature of virtue

04:55 The analogy of athletic competitions and the concept of justice

07:57 Socrates' discussion on voluntary and involuntary actions

12:05 The role of knowledge and capacity in moral actions

15:34 Hippias' understanding of justice and its relation to power

19:50 The concept of noble lies and pedagogical deception

25:04 The absence of forms and gods in the dialogue

30:14 The deeper meaning of Socratic ignorance and self-awareness

34:54 The significance of the question: Is justice knowledge or power?

39:51 Conclusion: What we learn about virtue, knowledge, and truth

Keywords

Plato’s Hippias Minor, Lesser Hippias, On the Lie, Hippias of Elis, Achilles and Odysseus, polytropos, voluntary and involuntary wrongdoing, voluntary liar, Socratic dialogue, aporetic dialogue, forgotten Platonic dialogues, noble lie, Republic, virtue is knowledge, knowledge and power, sophist, polymath, Eudicus, Embassy scene Iliad, teleology, Forms, Socratic irony, beneficial falsehood, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dr. Brett Larson, Thomas Lackey, Ascend the Great Books Podcast, political philosophy, Allan Bloom, Roots of Political Philosophy.

Next week we discuss Plato's Ion!