Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo explore the intricate relationship between Plato and St. Thomas Aquinas, examining how Aquinas's thought is influenced by Platonic philosophy while also being rooted in Aristotle.

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They discuss the nuances of Aquinas' understanding of universals, the nature of evil, and the significance of the body in Christian anthropology, highlighting the complexities of Aquinas's intellectual context and the historical development of these philosophical ideas.

They discuss how Aquinas synthesized various philosophical traditions, particularly in his understanding of existence and essence, the role of beauty, and the moral implications of his metaphysics. The dialogue also touches on the early church's reception (or rejection) of Aristotle, the influence of Islamic philosophy, and the evolution of Aquinas' thought throughout his life.

Ultimately, the conversation highlights the richness of Aquinas' philosophy and its relevance to contemporary discussions on faith and reason.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast

03:11 Experiencing the Papal Conclave

06:34 Plato and Aquinas: A Complex Relationship

12:43 Aquinas' Intellectual Evolution

17:02 The Importance of Reading the Great Books

24:25 Platonic Thought in Aquinas' Philosophy

34:48 The Quest for Certitude in Philosophy

37:20 Realism and the Nature of Universals

40:56 Mind-Body Dualism and the Significance of the Body

47:36 The Reception of Aristotle in Early Christianity

54:09 The Distinction Between Essence and Existence

01:04:53 The Role of Beauty in Aquinas' Philosophy

01:06:38 Exploring Beauty in Philosophy

01:11:23 The Role of Beauty in St. Thomas Aquinas

01:13:44 The Ladder of Love and Its Implications

01:19:18 Essence and Existence in Thomistic Thought

01:21:41 The Hierarchy of Being and Divine Wisdom

01:25:22 The Evolution of Aquinas' Thought

01:27:35 Understanding Aquinas Through His Influences

01:30:17 Final Thoughts on Faith and Reason

Takeaways

1. Aquinas is often mischaracterized as purely Aristotelian.
2. The relationship between Plato and Aristotle is more complex (and harmonious) than often portrayed.
3. Aquinas' thought is enriched by both Platonic and Aristotelian influences.
4. Evil is understood as a privation of the good in Aquinas's philosophy.
5. Aquinas' understanding of universals differs from both Plato and Aristotle.
6. The concept of exitus and reditus is a key Neoplatonic idea in Aquinas.
7. The mind-body dualism presents challenges for Christian thought.
8. Aquinas retained Platonic emphasis on the immortality of the soul.
9. The early church viewed Aristotle as a lesser philosopher compared to Plato.
10. Islamic philosophy significantly influenced medieval scholasticism.
11. Aquinas' distinction between existence and essence is revolutionary.
12. God's essence is existence itself, making Him unique.
13. Beauty is integral to understanding truth and goodness in Aquinas' thought.
14. Grace perfects nature, allowing for a fuller realization of being.
15. The hierarchy of being reflects God's wisdom in creation.
16. Aquinas' later works show a deeper engagement with Neoplatonism.
17. The dialogue between faith and reason is central to Aquinas' philosophy.

Keywords

Plato, St. Thomas Aquinas, philosophy, Neoplatonism, Aristotle, universals, particulars, evil, mind-body dualism, Christian thought, Aquinas, Aristotle, Plato, medieval philosophy, essence, existence, beauty, Islamic philosophy, hierarchy of being, Thomism, great books

In this episode of the Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Harrison Garlick engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Thomas Ward from Baylor University about Plato's influence on St. Boethius.

The conversation begins with an exploration of Boethius's life, particularly his role as a Roman statesman and philosopher during a tumultuous time in history. Dr. Ward highlights St. Boethius's seminal work, "The Consolation of Philosophy," written while he awaited execution, and discusses its impact on medieval thought and the liberal arts tradition. The dialogue emphasizes St. Boethius's unique position as a bridge between Roman and medieval philosophy, often referred to as the last of the Romans and the first of the medievals.

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As the conversation unfolds, the discussion shifts to the Platonic influences on St. Boethius's writings. Dr. Ward explains how Boethius synthesized Platonic and Aristotelian thought, particularly in his understanding of the good and the nature of happiness. The episode delves into the themes of evil as privation, the nature of true happiness, and the philosophical journey from despair to enlightenment that St. Boethius undergoes in his work.

The dialogue is rich with references to other philosophical texts, including the works of Plato, and draws parallels between Boethius's ideas and those found in the writings of later thinkers like Dante and Aquinas. Overall, the episode serves as a compelling introduction to Boethius's thought and its enduring relevance in the study of philosophy.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast

02:24 Exploring Boethius and His Influence

04:16 Who Was Boethius?

07:49 Boethius: The Last Roman and First Scholastic

10:18 The Liberal Arts and Boethius' Legacy

11:36 Teaching Boethius: A Personal Journey

14:07 Plato's Influence on Boethius

18:50 The Consolation of Philosophy: Setting the Stage

24:31 Lady Philosophy: Deconstruction and Reconstruction

29:58 The Quest for Self-Knowledge

30:51 Fortune and Its Dual Nature

31:53 The Good: Bridging Plato and Christianity

36:19 Happiness and the Divine Connection

40:00 The Paradox of Good and Evil

45:11 The Poetic and Philosophical Fusion

48:44 Evil as Privation: A Platonic Insight

52:08 Boethius: A Synthesis of Philosophical Traditions

Takeaways

1. Boethius is often called the last of the Romans and the first of the Medievals.
2. His work, "The Consolation of Philosophy," was written while he awaited execution.
3. Boethius synthesized Platonic and Aristotelian thought in his writings.
4. Evil is understood as a privation of good, not a substance in itself.
5. The journey from despair to enlightenment is central to Boethius's philosophy.

Keywords

Boethius, Plato, Consolation of Philosophy, medieval philosophy, Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Thomas Ward, liberal arts, happiness, evil as privation, philosophy, Deacon Harrison Garlick, great books

How did Plato influence St. Augustine? Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Chad Pecknold of the Catholic University of America discuss Plato's influence on St. Augustine.

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The discussion begins with the historical evolution of Platonism—from the original Academy of Socrates and Plato, through Middle Platonism (with figures like Plutarch and Apuleius), to the late or Neoplatonism of Plotinus and others—showing how it became increasingly religious, mystical, and hierarchical in the Roman Empire, complete with daemons (intermediary spiritual beings) and a strong emphasis on the soul's ascent to the divine.

St. Augustine, after years as a Manichaean and skeptic, encountered Platonic texts (likely including Plotinus) in Milan around 385–386 AD through Christian Platonists like Bishop Ambrose and Simplicianus. These writings played a crucial role in his intellectual conversion: they revealed a transcendent, immaterial God as Being itself, the eternal Word/Logos, and the soul's capacity for contemplative ascent beyond the material world—ideas strikingly parallel to the prologue of John's Gospel.

Yet St. Augustine recognized Platonism's crucial limitation: it allowed him to "catch the fragrance" of God but not to "feast" through union, because it lacked the Word made flesh—the incarnate Christ as the true mediator who bridges the gap between the divine and humanity, solving the problem of mediation and purification that Platonism itself raised but could not resolve.

Ultimately, Pecknold presents Platonism as a providential praeparatio evangelica—a promise that raises the restless heart's longing for God, truth, beauty, and eternal happiness—but one fulfilled only in Christianity. St. Augustine adopts and transforms Platonic elements (such as the ideas/forms residing in the divine mind, now identified with the Logos/Christ, and the soul's ascent through purification) while critiquing its errors, especially its inadequate mediators and inability to address incarnation, bodily resurrection, and grace. In this way, St. Augustine shows that Plato comes closest among philosophers to Christianity, yet only the Word made flesh satisfies the hunger Plato so powerfully articulated.

Plato on St. Boethius is up next week!

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, host Dcn. Harrison Garlick, along with guests Alec Bianco and Sean Berube, explore St. Basil the Great’s letter To Young Men, on the Right Use of Greek Literature, passionately arguing that Christians—especially young men—should actively read pagan classics like Homer, Plato, and Hesiod.

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Drawing on personal testimonies, the trio explains how these pre-Christian texts strengthened their own faith, trained natural virtue, sharpened Scripture reading, and revealed seeds of the Logos planted by divine providence. Through vivid analogies—leaves preparing fruit, bees gathering honey, and despoiling the Egyptians—they, supported by St. Jerome’s defense, contend that pagan literature is not a threat but a providential gift that grace perfects, forming the soul, evoking wonder, and equipping believers to engage the world with confidence and love.

The conversation highlights how pagan texts address universal human questions—virtue, meaning, fate, and the divine—preparing the soul for revelation, much as leaves nourish fruit on a branch or mirrors help the immature soul see itself. St. Basil’s analogies are unpacked: pagan literature as a shallow pool for beginners, bees selectively gathering honey from flowers, and the need to discriminate good from harmful elements through the standard of Christ. Examples include Odysseus’s restraint with Nausicaa as a model of natural virtue and Socrates’s near-Christian insights on non-retaliation. The guests stress that grace perfects nature, so training in natural virtue via pagan examples elevates rather than diminishes the supernatural call, challenging modern sloth and low expectations of human potential.

Providence is a recurring theme: Hebrew faith and Greek reason converged under Roman order to prepare the world for Christ; parallels in myths (floods, giants, serpents) and the Hellenization of Scripture (Septuagint, New Testament in Greek) show God working through pagan culture. References to Tolkien, Lewis, and Justin Martyr’s logos spermatikos underscore that truth found anywhere belongs to Christians. Music and athletics are explored as parallels—pagan modes and contests can form the soul when approached with discernment, just as Doric tunes sobered revelers in Pythagoras’s story.

The discussion shifts to St. Jerome’s Letter 70, defending the use of secular literature against accusations of defiling the Church. Jerome cites Moses educated in Egyptian wisdom, Paul quoting pagan poets, and analogies like despoiling the Egyptians or David wielding Goliath’s sword—Christianity takes the best of pagan thought and conquers paganism with it. His provocative image of shaving the captive woman (Deuteronomy) to make secular wisdom a “matron of the true Israel” illustrates stripping away seductive errors to reveal underlying beauty and truth.

Ultimately, the episode frames engagement with pagan literature as an act of love: understanding providence, nurturing what is good, evangelizing by meeting souls where they are, and ascending toward the Logos who permeates all reality. The tone is confident and joyful, rejecting both puritanical fear and uncritical consumption in favor of prudent, Christ-centered discernment.

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Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast concludes their Christmas reading of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight with Fitt 4, exploring Gawain’s restored armor, journey to the eerie Green Chapel, the three axe swings, Bertilak’s revelations, Morgan le Fay’s role, and the court’s final response.

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The discussion wrestles with Gawain’s girdle lapse, the degree of his fault, the poem’s moral realism, and its enduring vision of chivalry tempered by humility and grace.

Why is this poem worth reading?

This 14th-century gem subverts chivalric romance by relocating true heroism from battlefield glory to internal struggles with fear, courtesy, and faith—revealing with wit, irony, and profound humanity how even the “most faultless” knight bears imperfection. Its vivid poetry, layered symbolism (pentangle, girdle, greenness), and Christmas-liturgical depth offer a timeless meditation on pride, mortality, and divine mercy that meets flawed striving with grace—making it an ideal seasonal read for reflecting on our own hidden fears and the courage to face them.

Key Discussion Points

1. Restored Armor & Girdle: Gawain’s gleaming armor (rust scraped off) and open wearing of the girdle for self-preservation—symbolizing lingering fear beneath renewed ideal.
2. Final Temptation: Servant’s offer to lie and let Gawain flee—Gawain refuses, prioritizing truth and fortitude.
3. Green Chapel: Described as ancient barrow/tomb in wild valley—evoking death, pagan past, nature’s savagery, and satanic dread.
4. Three Swings: First (flinch), second (feigned), third (nick)—mirroring castle days; nick as merciful penance for girdle fault.
5. Degree of Error: Guests debate: minor (fear-driven, not malice) yet meaningful lapse in trust/providence; Tolkien downplays, Deacon sees deeper Christian failing.
6. Morgan le Fay vs. Mary: Opposing feminine forces—malicious fae magic vs. protective providence.
7. Gawain’s Reaction: Self-reproach, brief blaming of women, then accepting girdle as lifelong humility token.
8. Court’s Response: Laughter, solidarity—adopting green baldric as fraternity badge, transforming shame into shared emblem.
9. Old French Motto: “Honi soit qui mal y pense”—Order of the Garter motto reframing girdle as honorable.

Notable Quotes

1. Banished Kent: “The poem ends on God’s grace… he survives because of that.”
2. George: “Gawain as anti-Lancelot… and anti-Galahad—more human, more endearing.”

Thank you for joining this Christmas journey through Sir Gawain.

Next week: Why Christians should read the pagan Greeks, with St. Basil and St. Jerome. Join the community on Patreon or X!

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick, Dr. Tiffany Schubert of Wyoming Catholic College, George of the Chivalry Guild, and Banished Kent discuss Fitts 2 and 3 of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight!

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Check out our 50 QUESTION-AND-ANSWER GUIDE to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Be sure to visit our sister publication, THE ASCENT, for Christian spirituality.

Episode Summary

The panel continues the Christmas reading of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, exploring Fitts 2 and 3 with Dr. Tiffany Schubert. The discussion covers the meditative passage of time, Gawain’s elaborate armor and pentangle, his wilderness journey, arrival at the lord's castle, and the three bedroom temptations mirroring the lord’s hunts. Themes of courtesy versus Christian prudence, the unexpected location of peril, and human imperfection dominate.

Why Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Is Worth Reading

This poem masterfully redirects chivalric expectations from martial heroism to internal trials of temperance and fidelity, using irony, humor, and subtle symbolism to expose the tensions within knighthood itself. As Dr. Schubert notes, it brings readers “back down into this world”—a murky, incarnate place of comfort and laughter where true danger often hides—while probing whether Christian virtue can govern or perfect courtly ideals. Rich in liturgical resonance, Marian devotion, and realistic grace, it humanizes the heroic quest, making it profoundly relevant for reflecting on temptation, fear, and humility during the Christmas season.Key Discussion Points

1. Time & Seasons: Opening meditation on cyclical yet forward-moving time; Gawain’s lingering and All Hallows’ departure as liturgical reflection on mortality.
2. Armor & Pentangle: Lavish buildup of Gawain’s gear and “endless knot” (five sets of five perfections, piety surpassing all) as outward ideal—quickly deflated as armor is removed.
3. Mary Inside the Shield: Hidden source of strength and piety governing the public projection of perfection.
4. Wilderness to Castle: Dismissal of monster battles; castle as surprising “answer” to Marian prayer—Providence working through murky, tempting paths.
5. Second Christmas Game: Bertilak’s exchange of winnings parallels the first deadly game, shifting peril to courtesy and domestic temptation.
6. Three Temptations & Hunts: Parallel structure—doe (subtle), boar (fierce), fox (cunning); Gawain resists lust admirably but accepts/conceals girdle out of fear of death.
7. Courtesy vs. Christian Prudence: Repeated bedroom returns (no Joseph-like flight) prolong exposure, allowing lady to exploit deeper flaw—courtesy overriding removal from sin.
8. Confession Ambiguity: Post-girdle absolution raises questions of self-awareness and lingering human frailty.
9. Humor & Irony: Lighthearted banter, kiss exchanges, and tonal ease amid “great peril” and single use of “sin.”

Notable Quotes

1. Dr. Schubert: “This is a really funny kind of a poem… part of the way the poet redirects our attention to what is actually the challenge.”
2. Deacon Garlick: “Courtesy is holding him there… the more he adheres to the courtesy culture, the more he jeopardizes his own soul.”
3. Banished Kent: “The real temptation… is the temptation to hold on to his own life.”

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Check out our 50 QUESTION-AND-ANSWER GUIDE to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Be sure to visit our sister publication, THE ASCENT, for Christian spirituality.

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we are discussing Fitt 1 of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight with Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Justin Jackson of Hillsdale College, Chivalry Guild, and Banished Kent.

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Check out our WRITTEN GUIDE to Sir Gawain and the Greek Knight (posted soon!).

Episode Summary

The panel dives into the 14th-century Middle English masterpiece Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, exploring its mysterious single-manuscript survival, alliterative brilliance, and rich layers of meaning in Fit 1. From the Troy-to-Britain prologue to the shocking arrival of the Green Knight and the beheading game, the discussion uncovers dualities, temptations, and the clash between chivalric courtesy and Christian virtue that make this Christmas tale profoundly relevant.

Why Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Is Worth Reading

This poem stands as one of the greatest works of English literature because it masterfully blends adventure, humor, moral depth, and spiritual insight. As Dr. Jackson notes, it survived by miracle in a single tiny manuscript, yet offers the “greatest chivalric romance” alongside exquisite theological literacy. It probes timeless questions—how do pride, fear, courtesy, and faith collide in a fallen world?—without easy answers, forcing readers to wrestle with their own choices.

Tolkien saw it as a meditation on seductive worldly culture versus Christian ethos; the guests highlight its realistic portrayal of human imperfection amid high ideals. Beautifully crafted (alliteration, bob-and-wheel, vivid imagery), often funny, and profoundly Christian, it humanizes the heroic while elevating humility and grace—perfect for Christmas reflection on mortality, temptation, and redemption.

Key Discussion Points

• Manuscript & Poet: A unique survival with Pearl, Cleanness, and Patience; anonymous poet of astounding skill in alliterative revival.
• Historical Frame: Begins with Troy’s fall and Aeneas (traitor in medieval legend) leading to Brutus and Britain—history as “bliss and blunder.”
• Arthur’s Court: Young, vital Arthur is admirable yet “somewhat childish,” craving marvels or “life for life” combat.
• Guinevere’s Gray Eyes: Symbol of wisdom/clarity, yet ambiguous; benchmark of beauty later challenged.
• Green Knight’s Duality: Terrifying green giant vs. courtly noble—tempting fear/violence vs. courtesy/mercy.
• The Game: Explicitly “stroke for stroke,” not beheading; court’s violent interpretation reveals failures.
• Tolkien’s Lens: Tension between seductive chivalric/courtly culture and higher Christian virtue.
• Gawain’s Intervention: Praised as humble, loyal self-sacrifice to shield Arthur.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Jackson: “The poem is giving you two readings throughout, and then it wants to see which one are you going to appropriate.”
• Deacon Garlick: “This text captures my imagination… knowledge is an antecedent to love.”
• George (via Tolkien): “Gawain… as a matter of duty and humility and self-sacrifice.”

Resources & Recommendations

• Tolkien’s translation and scholarly edition
• James Winny’s facing-page translation
• Dr. Jackson’s Hillsdale online course lecture (watch after finishing the poem to avoid spoilers)

Next episode: Fits 2–3 with Dr. Tiffany Schubert. Join the discussion on Patreon or X!

Today on Ascend, we discuss Plato, education, the role of the teacher, eros, beauty, and much more drawing from the dialogues First Alcibiades and the Meno. Returning to the podcast, we have Dcn. Garlick, Dr. Frank Grabowski, Dr. Brett Larson, and Thomas Lackey.

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What does it mean to teach like Plato? In this rich, wide-ranging conversation the panel explores lessons on education drawn from Plato’s First Alcibiades and Meno. The central idea: the true teacher is not an information-dispenser or job-trainer, but a lover of the soul who serves as a living mirror in which the student comes to “know himself” and is drawn toward virtue, happiness, and ultimate beauty.

Summary:

The conversation revolved around a single, radiant idea: for Plato, the true teacher is not a dispenser of information or a trainer for the marketplace, but a lover of the soul. In First Alcibiades, Socrates positions himself as the living mirror in which the young, ambitious Alcibiades can finally see himself clearly and be drawn toward genuine happiness through virtue.

Education is therefore deeply personal, erotic (in the classical sense of an ardent desire for not only pleasure but also nobility and wisdom), and irreducibly communal; self-knowledge is never solitary navel-gazing but requires another soul whose loving gaze reflects one’s own. The panel repeatedly contrasted this rich, teleological vision—where education aims at universal happiness, orders the whole person toward truth, goodness, and beauty, and ultimately points to God as the final mirror—with the thin, “unerotic” reality of modern schooling, which often reduces teachers to talking search engines and students to economic cogs in a materialist machine.

A second major thread was the haunting, unresolved tension of the Meno: teaching demands both an able and willing teacher and an able and willing student. Virtue can be cultivated, but it cannot be forcibly downloaded; the student must respond, cooperate, and allow his desires to be re-ordered toward what is truly lovable.

This led to broader reflections on beauty, rhetoric, place, and hierarchy: truth is beautiful and therefore insists on being loved; philosophy without rhetoric is impotent, rhetoric without philosophy becomes tyrannical; ugly buildings and disembodied logic deform the soul; natural hierarchy is not abolished by grace but perfected and placed in service of the common good. Throughout, the panel returned to the conviction that genuine education is slow, embodied, relational, and oriented toward the transcendent—an ascent that begins with a teacher who truly sees and loves the soul before him.

Key words: Plato, First Alcibiades, Meno, classical education, teacher as lover of the soul, know thyself, virtue, happiness, eudaimonia, beauty, transcendentals, eros, mirror of the soul, rhetoric, philosophy, modern education critique, materialism, teleology, Socratic method, student-teacher relationship, hierarchy, imago Dei, Christian Platonism, and Great Books.

This conversation was recorded April 2025.

In this episode of Ascend, Deacon Harrison Garlick and Dr. Brian Kemple discuss the violent, grotesque southern tale "The Lame Shall Enter First" by Flannery O'Connor.

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They explore O'Connor's life, her unique Southern Gothic style, and the themes of faith, suffering, and the grotesque in her writing.

The conversation also touches on the mission of the Lyceum Institute, the significance of characters and their arcs, and the pedagogical purpose of violence in literature.

Through their analysis, they highlight the complexities of human relationships and the contrasting desires of the characters, ultimately revealing the deeper truths embedded in O'Connor's work.

Through a detailed analysis of specific scenes and character dynamics, the discussion highlights the grotesque elements in O'Connor's storytelling and the moral implications of her narratives, ultimately reflecting on the nature of redemption and the human experience.

"She doesn't intend to tidy up reality." - Dr. Kemple

In the incredible final act of Plato’s Gorgias (481–527), Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Greg McBrayer (Ashland University, New Thinkery podcast) tackle the longest and most brutal confrontation: Socrates versus Callicles, the most shameless, most ambitious, and—as Greg insists—nastiest character in all of Plato.

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Callicles storms in threatening to “whoop Socrates in the mouth” and delivers the most radical claim yet: conventional justice is a sham invented by the weak; by nature the superior should rule, take more, and live without restraint—coining the first recorded “law of nature” in Western literature to mean might makes right (482e–484c).

Socrates flips the argument, forces Callicles to admit intelligence without self-control is mere cleverness, and reduces his unlimited-pleasure principle to absurdity with the leaky-jar and escalating vulgar examples (constant scratching, the catamite, 494–495), provoking Callicles’ outraged “Aren’t you ashamed?”—proof he still clings to the noble (kalon) despite his bravado.

At 503a Socrates finally reveals the two kinds of rhetoric: the shameful, flattering kind that seeks only pleasure, and the true, noble rhetoric that “makes the souls of citizens as good as possible” and strives to say “what is best” whether pleasant or painful—the kind Socrates claims to be the only Athenian practicing (521d).

When Callicles becomes completely recalcitrant, Socrates turns to the audience with the unforgettable myth of naked souls judged by dead judges (523a–527e): every injustice leaves visible scars no rhetoric or power can hide; the cosmos itself is ordered toward justice and will not allow injustice to triumph forever.

Athens is about to execute its only true statesman, but the myth promises that in the final reckoning Socrates’ just soul will shine while his accusers’ scarred souls stand exposed. The dialogue ends not with Callicles’ conversion but with Socrates’ quiet vindication: living justly is ultimately worth it, even in a city that kills its best citizen.

Next week: a short break from Plato for Flannery O’Connor’s “The Lame Shall Enter First.”