Parul Wadhwa comes from humble beginnings in India and found herself on the West Coast in California due to her curiosity of technology. With just a few hundred dollars in her pocket, she had to reinvent herself. Today, she’s a creator of incredible VR stories.

TAMAR: Hi everybody. I am starting to count the episode numbers because we are in the 20 something. We are Episode 26 today. I have and I’m just making sure. Yep, we have Episode 26. Yay. Today I have Parul Wadhwa, she is going to share her story and I am completely coming from this blind slate as usual. So, thank you so much for joining and tell me a little bit about yourself where you are right now.

00:46

PARUL WADHWA: Hi, Tamar. I am in the San Francisco Bay area right now. And thank you for inviting me to your podcast.

00:55

TAMAR: Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. I guess it’s a little early for you. This dynamic makes it like nine o’clock podcast. I wouldn’t be in trouble, but kids have class tickets. Oh, school? Yeah, yeah. So, tell me what do you do? What’s your life like, these days?

01:17

PARUL WADHWA: It’s pretty interesting. Actually, I thought everything is going to be upside down, which is in many ways because of COVID. And the protests going around. And interestingly, my life has kind of pivoted in one area because of this whole crisis, because I am an immersive storyteller who works with virtual reality. And everything is gone virtual suddenly for the last couple of months or weeks, if I may say. And so, I’m at a very interesting point in my life right now.

01:53

TAMAR:  Oh, yeah, in Korea, it’s crazy is an understatement, I guess. It’s funny because my particular story, I had an early quarantine early March. March 3, for me. The rest of the country shut down about two weeks, three weeks later. And I’m trying to normalize these podcasts because I think we are slightly reopening. I have had people in the San Francisco, San Jose area who have spoken to and they’re like, I’m going to be careful. But business is kind of going on as usual. The dynamic, I think becomes ultimately what people internalize is their experience in the heart with respect to the virus. And I feel that it’s very different for everybody. So, it’s funny. So, yeah, tell me a little bit about how you got to where you are? And how’s your trajectory. I know you had a little bit of an interesting trajectory, you’re about to tell me before we started the podcast, but I told you, I want to hear it here. So, tell me a little bit about that?

02:58

PARUL WADHWA: Well, yeah, it’s been very interesting. As I say, life is a journey and take one step at a time. And I tend to be a person who looks at the whole mountain. So, it was definitely daunting, interesting and challenging. I currently work in the technology sector in Silicon Valley, but had no plan to be here. And to be honest, when I look back, I have no idea how I got here, too. I actually grew up in India. And I had no plans whatsoever to emigrate to United States. And one thing just led to the other, and majority got me here. And then I started working in the tech industry. So just to give you a little bit of background, I come from a very humble family in India, and I was very happy go lucky and going about my life. And I actually wanted to nothing to do with what I’m doing currently, which is that very passionate about making films and being part of the whole media scape. And when I was in India, in my teens, wanted to just take that path forward and bright, one of my first few things that I did. After I graduated from college, I started working for Bollywood just to realize what my dreams were like. And I suddenly felt that yes, of course, I have this passion for film and media, but that’s not really running around trees and making stories and seeing all those things is not my cup of tea. And one thing led to the other. I was so attracted to technology. I was always very curious how things worked. So more than actually choreographing a song or just trying to figure out how that whole process worked. I was more interested in figuring out what’s happening with this film reel when it gets processed? Or, how, where does it go in the camera or all the technical aspects of it, and that got me intrigued, and I won a scholarship from the Korean film Council. And they actually got me into the technical department and I flew from India for the very first time. And I moved to Asia, where I lived for a couple of years. And I learned a lot about the technique behind film and storytelling and things like that. I’m sure in the podcast as well, we were getting into this right before. There’s so much that goes into it in terms of creative stuff. But also, it’s more about modern technology, everything that you see today is more about media and technology. And technology is not just one thing. Because while you have to master the form that you’re using, but at the same time, the technique and how that came about is also part of the whole process. And that’s when I started learning about all this stuff. I had a great time there.

06:21

PARUL WADHWA: And  again, had no idea that I  would completely move into technology. And slowly and gradually, that started happening to me, and even at that point, I had no idea that my path is going to take me to the United States at some point. And I was working on calibrating a bunch of things, which just to explain to our audience, what it is, is when you see a film on your screens, the way it’s shot is very different from the way it looks on the screen. So, the feel of the firm is decided by the director and the tactical team. And they work many hours and days and months on the look of the film. And so that is called calibrating where you could have shot it in very dim circumstances or with very poor lighting, but you can fix that or change the complete look of the film. So, for example, if I shot it in, let’s say, yellow tones, I can completely change the whole film to red tones, because that’s my intent, or that’s the emotion I want to convey . So, I started learning all those things that I got, an opportunity to work with a London- based studio, who wanted to hire me, in doing the same stuff, and I reached  London and I think at that point of time, I started thinking going back to who I used to be, of always wanting to make films, but at the same time I’m learning all these techniques and the technical side of things. There has to be some connection between who I am or what I intend to be. Because, by that time, I traveled a lot in Asia and Europe, and I was based in London, and I started thinking who I was, and then, an artist’s residency came about, and I applied for it. And that was actually New York City. And that’s how I was, by the first time that I landed in United States about eight years ago maybe, and with very little money in my pocket, probably I barely had, $1,000 at that point of time. So, just with this whole thing that I wanted to discover who I was, as an artist, I’d never done anything before that, which was making anything of my own or calling myself an artist. And I just had these bunch of skills which were very tech based. And I just came with them to New York City. From there, things just picked up. And it was complete unraveling of my own identity of who I was, as an artist, what I wanted to see as an artist, why an artist. Of course, I today work with art and technology in the technology sector in Silicon Valley. But I make very immersive experiences, which are so based around stories of home longing, belonging, and that is such a huge part of who I am. Because of my journey, I think.

09:33

TAMAR: Awesome. Well, it sounds like you’re very well-traveled now. So that’s a good thing. That’s amazing. Yeah, I want to kind of see the stuff that you do because it’s hard to envision all this art and stuff that you’re creating, but I’m sure it’s absolutely beautiful. I’m going to request some links for the listeners to see or I don’t know what they are, I don’t really know. But I would love to experience the art that you’ve brought to the world and the storytelling that you’ve been able to bring. So, hopefully that is a valid question. And then yeah, in terms of your appending, your identity, it must be difficult. It’s hard especially because you didn’t have the expectation that you would ever be on the other side of the world. And you probably still have a lot of family there. So how often are you traveling? What does that look like? And I mean, Now, given our circumstances, has that affected your life in any way in the sense that you haven’t been able to see family and you had plans or nothing really? Or what’s that dynamic? Like with? Your fear?

10:38

PARUL WADHWA: Yes, the world. Honestly, just a few weeks ago, I went to judge a competition here in Silicon Valley with a lot of students and one of the students volunteered, having got to know about my story. They introduced me as a true globalist, and I was really taken aback because I personally had never used that word for myself. And I also feel like the word globalist has this feeling of conquering everything. And I never used that for myself, and I felt it was a sense of achievement, but it was also very uncomfortable. And coming back to your question, I always feel that I don’t belong to one place because I’ve been to so many places at the same time in my life and it has been a complete adventure. So, the two things that happened out of that is that I don’t really feel at home anywhere. At the same time, I feel I am always hankering to sort of settle down in that one place which my life never allows me. So, it’s interesting because that kind of stuff is very visible in my work as an artist if I may call myself because for the last couple of years, I’ve been practicing my art and immersive storytelling, and that’s intriguing. And going back to the whole question of how COVID has completely ripped apart my life because I have a lot of family back in India at the same time I have adopted a lot of family or mean, friends and family who become more important to me than the family I have left behind many years ago. And they’re all over the world. Sometimes when I have to introduce my closest friends, they’re like in another part of the world or definitely in another city. And that’s interesting because I’ve spent so much of my time and closest emotions with them, but yet at the same time, they’re not in the same space. And COVID kind of questions those things for me very closely. Of course, physically, it’s put barriers for me to travel and for other people to travel to me. So, that definitely happened. And I haven’t been able to travel at all, and I’m even scared what does my life look like in the next year when I won’t be able to travel often, and it’s making me very uncomfortable. But yet at the same time, the very fact that I’ve always been a person who has had family and friends all over the world, in that sense, everything is just a mostly bit virtual for me, including the technologies I use to do immersive storytelling, which is mostly virtual and augmented reality. And suddenly the world is a sci-fi world. So, I don’t very much at last explain what I do or who I am because everyone’s sort of grappling with that identity which I sort of have been living for some time now.

13:55

TAMAR: Well, it’s funny that you say that as somebody who’s like you use the phrase globalist and you’re traveling a lot and you can’t really find your place at home. I don’t travel very often at all. I think the last time I went on a plane was September. I did go September 2019. I went to my parents’ house, that house I grew up in. Previous to that it was like 2018. I travel once a year now and I used to travel maybe twice or three times or four times a year, which isn’t that much either. But when I had started having kids, they’re all over the age of two. So, I don’t have any with babies, that would be six different flight plane tickets and not really financially conducive right now. But it’s funny that you say that as somebody who’s traveling you don’t find a place at home. The moment that this pandemic started, I started to struggle a little bit myself in terms of how I felt as a resident of my community. The backstory for me for your purposes, hopefully other people have heard this before, but I live in the first city suburb that had community spread. We had an actually documented case of community spread, which meant that we had a patient zero and I was connected to patient zero in my community. And that basically was the domino effect that shut down the entire country. I think people didn’t realize that it was a lot worse than it was, but they shut us down first, and then everybody shut down, as I mentioned, two to three weeks later. And I struggled socially in my community, it was very difficult for me to kind of relate to people in my community. But then, when this happened, I worked from home, I thrived working remotely, and because of that, I was able to pick it up very easily. And I became I would say you would call vigilante, or Good Samaritan. I don’t know what it is but I’ve put like 500 hours of work into feeding my community and doing things for my community, writing stories about it to make people feel better, coordinating charity initiatives and the like. And it’s so weird for me, and I think part of the reason why I do that is because I don’t necessarily feel like I live here yet. And I have to do this to cement my reasons for being there. It’s sort of like, a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome, but they talk about imposter syndrome in this context of I don’t feel like I’m able to perform at work. But what if you have this imposter syndrome that I don’t feel like I belong in this community. Then all of a sudden, that becomes so much more depending of your identity in a place or this is sort of why I’m distracting myself by saying, oh, yeah, I’m here and I kind of belong here. It’s very weird, but it hit me like, in the last couple days, I was like, why am I doing this? I mean, yeah, I want to do it to be a good person. And I thrive on doing it, I actually love it. I’m dealing with every single day, there’s like two to three hours of customer service complaints. Just this morning, I did a food pellet delivery. We partnered up with farms that had excess surplus of food, and giving it to members of community. And this morning, I had 16 pallets of produce that went to multiple homes. Oh, my buddy, yeah, it’s great. But everybody’s telling me oh, I have that on hand. So, I have my cucumbers, oh, I have fed this and peaches and melons. And, and I’m seeing pictures of these melons that are like rotten, and I have like someone just sent me one literally four minutes ago. And I’m like, ooh, I don’t want to see this. But this is my new life, apparently. And I think the reason why I’m doing this is because I want to feel like, hey, I live here. And it ties back down to that identity. So, you see it in a different way. But I see it as I actually been living this house for almost eight years now. And I don’t necessarily feel like I’m part of the community, like this is how I make myself making it work. But it’s still I feel like I’m this. I’m this outlier among the cusp of on the side, what’s the sidelines and not really part of it. I think I’ve changed that dynamic for how other people look at me, but I don’t always feel that way. So, just a perspective that I I’ve been entertaining internally.

18:26

PARUL WADHWA: Wow, that’s interesting. That’s very interesting. Most of the time, it’s the opposite for people. And when you back trace your steps, it actually leads to who you are. It’s pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing, and I love the work that you’re doing for the community as well. It’s so much needed for the hour.

18:48

TAMAR: Yeah, it was just something that’s kind of weird. I don’t feel that’s something that would normally be my thing. But it came very naturally to me. Like I knew a guy who knew a guy and I started reaching out to restaurants because I wanted to try food. That was another thing I wanted. To try all these meals because I don’t like going out, I don’t like leaving my kids. I don’t like date night. So, if you can’t go to the restaurants bring the restaurants to you. So, I do that as well. Last night we did okay, but then some guy shows up after everybody leaves and he’s like, I’m looking for my food. I’m like your food is not here. The guy expected the food guy, the delivery guy was expected at 5pm. He didn’t come until 7:15. So, I have to deal with like this caravan of cars in my driveway which I had to get clearance from the local cops in order to get access to social, ultimately have this perception of social gathering. So, there’s no shortage of drama in this. I’m sufficiently being distracted with that and then launching a brand because there’s so much fear involved in launching a business like this. This keeps me distracted from that fear, although it doesn’t lead, it doesn’t have me less focused, it just takes me away from the fear. So, I always say, if anybody’s afraid to do something, get distracted, just  keep focused, keep yourself focused on your goal, but get sufficiently distracted, and your fear won’t overcome you as much. You won’t be able to spend time to dwell on it. So, moving on, let’s talk about you for a little bit. I know your story, I assume it has a little bit to do with moving, picking up and coming to the other side of the world. Maybe that is, but what would you consider to be your rising above the ashes story, you’re overcoming your adversity? Was there? Is there a different story to that? What does that look like for you?

20:46

PARUL WADHWA: I would say that it was really hard for me because if you think about it, and you might have come across this in India, because of the kind of place that I came from, usually you won’t see women going very far with their goals or ambitions, or they are nurtured to think in a way that they could have  goals or ambitions or a career, so to speak. And I pretty much grew up that as well, and I just never thought that that was assigned to me existed, or there was something that was part of my identity, or I needed to find myself mostly I was growing up. And everything around me was so patriarchal and women have to perform in a certain way, according to the standards of society. The ultimate goal for an Indian woman is just to get married and raise children. And that is true for most of India even today, and we have a huge amount of problems with domestic violence, gender violence, as well. And there is a huge rape crisis that exists that the government is constantly fighting. And so, within those parameters, I never thought that it would be a very natural progression for me because I wasn’t even studying the things that could take me to economic progress in that sense, or to help me find who, what my identity was what I wanted to do. So, it was a very confusing path for me. And for the most part, it wasn’t very linear. And I didn’t know what I wanted to do or who I was. And like I said, it was very gradual. And when I put all these dots together, I realized that I always had this penchant to tell stories, but at the same time, all the things that I cared about, for example, I’m very empathetic being and the very fact that I chose a technology, which is so far and so futuristic, like VR, has nothing to do with how I grew up and where I grew up, which was very simple. And you can’t talk about a futuristic technology even today. It’s just a 180 turn for me to even think that sort of thing exists when I don’t have family, they’re in India, and I explained to them what I do, it’s hard for them to visualize it, because 23:49 Silicon Valley’s completely a different world altogether, where everything futuristic is happening. They have not seen it, they haven’t had any grip or any encounter, or any chance to have an experience of something like that where life is all centered around very small, little things. And going back to my past, I would say, I really appreciate that. I am so much of an aspiring entrepreneur as well. And I often think how can I use this technology for working with other people or creating something which is more useful than just what I create for myself or for a family, say for very selfish reasons that it is purely for entertainment or for reflection. It’s not really something which is creating a change or ripple effect in the world. And I would love to see that happen at some point of time. So, I engage in very entrepreneurial things and I think I am so much of that in spirit, given the kind of decisions I’ve made in my life. Coming from where I am, to where I am now, it’s like here I have to take responsibility. And there’s this very strong sense of a feminist identity in a way. Or if I may say, for lack of a better word, because I don’t know what that meant, when I was back in India, because there was no opportunity to even express yourself as a woman.  I forget about finding ourselves or what our identity was, and that was interesting, a journey to just find that person within you who is more than a woman or daughter, or what society expects her to be. And then just emerge from there to say, I am more than all of these things, and I’m this person who believes in all these things, and this is what my longing in life for is, or this is what I live for, or this is what I’m striving for, or looking for in that sense. So, there was no opportunity to do that. And oftentimes one of the things that I’ve always wanted to do and I do at various different levels is that I mentor a lot of young women. Let’s say with the Cherie Blair foundation in London, Geneva, worked with for some time when I was in London, and I continue working with them because their goals are very similar to mine. They reach out to women entrepreneurs or anyone who’s aspiring to create something in the developing world and reach out to especially women, and encourage them to achieve their goals in very small steps. And I mentor with them. And that is something very exciting for me. In the same way, I work with this company called Technovation, which is all about technical innovations. And they focus on reaching out to girls from high schools all over the world and not just in the United States. So, it’s interesting that I get to mentor high school girls from Cupertino, which is in Silicon Valley. At the same time, I get to see this brilliant app that a group of girls in Afghanistan have made, and it just brightens my soul because I know what that journey means. I know what it means to sit in that room in the developing world where you have access to nothing, and you just dreaming up something with this very strong desire to create change or to build something and at the same time, it is also finding your own identity and what that could lead to. So, I often say don’t stop dreaming because you never know where it’s going to lead to. One opportunity might come after the other. And those girls might not be in Afghanistan, the act of the building might be somewhere else. And it would actually create a lot of significant change. And, especially in the tech world, that I am always in, we see this huge movement of Black Lives Matter right now as well, which is so poignant and important. Yet at the same time, there are fights around, you’ve got to stand up for  gender as well. When you walk in with technology, I’m sure you’ve worked with technology, like you said, and you’ve experienced that it’s just saturated with men. And technology which is made for men, there’s very little space for any other kind of stuff. So how do you break those stereotypes and how do you emerge from there? And how do you make sure that you have a unique voice which is contributing something to the world? I think that is the driving force behind me. And I think that would be my ashes to a phoenix story in a way that it wasn’t just a linear progression for me.

29:09

TAMAR: So yeah, I think it’s amazing that you’re able to take that and take your learnings, and you’re able to apply that in mentoring women who were, I would say in their own struggle. But is it really a struggle? I would say it’s more of a rebirth, it’s growth, all of our struggles ultimately become learning experiences for us to become better versions of ourselves. There will be times where we will like I guess, revert and come to a point where we don’t want to regress a little bit. But I think for most of us, all these little things always go back to the word struggles, ultimately becomes an opportunity for us to take that step and to grow in a better way. And it’s amazing that you’re able to take your experiences, which your identity was completely changed. You said you left your family behind, you have a new family, I mean, that’s a mindset that you have to adopt in order to make your current reality, your current location, your current situation, something that is identifiable for you. It’s something that you can do, you can tolerate, you can stand the words, kind of a loss of words here. But I think what you’re able to do here is amazing, and I mean, kudos to you. Right now, I want to find mentors for anything even though my story has nothing to do with yours. I like that you’re going out and you’re taking the ability to teach what you’ve gone through, and to help them. It’s completely foreign territory. It’s both from a cultural perspective and from a geographic perspective. So, women have the ability to do so much more.

PARUL WADHWA: Yeah, thank you.

TAMAR: And thank you. So, on behalf of all the people that I don’t know you’re teaching, thank you. Yeah.

31:13

PARUL WADHWA: Thank you, Tamar.  I think it’s more to do with the fact that it takes you a while to understand what are you condensing from your journey? And then, once you know, the process can be traumatic as well. I wouldn’t call my process or my journey to be dramatic. But in the sense, it was very uncomfortable for sure. And many times, it’s a very standard thing for life is never linear for anything. It’s not just for me, maybe for most people who aren’t hankering for anything, but I was. And so, it wasn’t not just linear, but at the same time, it was definitely uncomfortable at times. And when you deal with that uncertainty and that uncomfort, but at the same time, you go through a process where you’ve healed and you’ve dealt with it, and you’ve realized what it means that whole process. And of course, that takes years, another couple of years or maybe sometimes a lifetime. And I think we’re always deciphering, if you were, we wouldn’t have this podcast and this conversation, another 10 years into my life, I’d probably have another story. Because that would have been my interpretation of how I see and look at those things. And it always keeps changing. And it’s  good, definitely because you grow like you said, and your perspective changes. And so would you choose to give back is also different.

32:47

TAMAR: Yeah, and I mean, you’re giving back in such a great way. So, it’s amazing. Awesome. There’s a lot of directions I could take here. But in the interest of time, I guess we’ll probably go into the self-care regimen. What do you do in order to basically give yourself a breather, take care of yourself? Whether it’s journaling, gym fitness, what is your self-care look like? It’s changed the dynamic exchange. Also, since the pandemic, feel free to talk about what the usual looks like, and how it has potentially changed. Go for it.

33:27

PARUL WADHWA: Yeah. Mindfulness is such a buzzword in Silicon Valley. And I used to often think why, and I do things in my life to keep myself grounded. First is, I actually follow, very passionately I meditate. And the reason I say passionately, is because I think it’s just like disconnecting ourselves from your reality and which is interesting because most of the time I spend in a virtual world in VR, and when I actually meditate, it takes me into a very different world, which is not VR, but it’s also not my world. So, it’s questioning that whole artifice of the VR world and the virtuality and offer real world as well. The temporary nature of where we are and what we are, I’ve obviously experienced that because I don’t take anything too seriously. I am passionate about things I build and projects I make and stuff I put out into the world. I put all my heart and soul into it, but at the same time, something that keeps me grounded is the fact that I’m not too serious about it. If it fails, it fails and I did my best and probably will have a few grudges or a sense of failure for a couple of days. And I kind of have those moments of going down and being depressed for a long time. But I emerge from it and I think a lot stronger with the feeling that it was just so temporal. And it doesn’t mean anything in the larger scheme of things of who I am. And it’s not just about one thing, it’s not just about a professional failure, but also personal failures. I look at them exactly the same way. Which is why I think that my strength is a lot into using techniques like meditation, yoga, and mindfulness, where I have learned to feel that everything around me is way bigger and bigger set of circumstances that lead to something and I am just one of those circumstances. I am part of that whole mechanism of things that will make something happen. So, if I did not do my part, then it’s okay because there were 99 other things that were doing their part which went wrong. So that means that you have to make peace with it, and you’re the ultimate person to say things. And I think the very fact that I come from such a spiritual land of yoga and meditation and all these techniques, when I reflect back, it’s interesting, because I think about perspective. In Silicon Valley, everyone’s trying to control things, or we need to know what’s the next thing or everything has to be very planned, which is all great. It works great to have a very concrete product. But at the end of the day, if you apply those same principles in your life, it doesn’t really work out that well because there’s a lot more. You have to be fluid as an identity and you’re more than just your body. And I think the conflict happens when people try to control things, or they think that I exactly know that in five years I will own a house and I will earn this much money, or I will be doing this. If you ask me, I always say that I don’t know what I’ll be doing. Of course, I have a plan for myself. And I work on those plans. I wouldn’t say most of the time, sometimes those plans work according to the wave that I’m working on them. But I always leave that scope to fail. And that’s very important to me. to keep myself grounded, to have that perspective. And that insight that whatever I’m doing, there’s more than forces that are sort of taking care of that stuff. So even if I try to control it to the Z, it’s not just me, there are things that I can’t see that are happening. So that’s one thing that I do to keep myself grounded. And physically, of course, I like to get exercise, but I’m not really a person who enjoys jamming. You can find me and every time running on a treadmill reminds me of the meme that people share all the time that Nazis used to make run people on the treadmill to punish them. And something that sort of sticks to me, which is why I really enjoy my yoga sessions and my meditation and physical exercise, I run and I swim, I am such a huge water body. I love being in nature, hiking. I just love hearing the birds and so anything doing outdoors in nature is my go to, for reviving my soul. And thankfully, I’m just here in California, between the ocean and the redwood forests and beautiful trees. And it gives me many opportunities to step out except that everything is just changed in everyone’s reality, including mine because of the pandemic. And it’s funny that I used to never meditate in VR and I do so much now because I miss that reality of mine of being outdoors and being in shelter. We just had limited opportunities to step out, get exercise and obviously, I haven’t had any opportunity to swim which I’m missing that time which is so healing for my soul and for my body. I think when I’m under the water, it’s just a very different being and it connects me again to this larger thoughts that I just spoke about during my connection with mindfulness. And I just absolutely love swimming. And so those are some of the things that I practice mostly: mindfulness, yoga, swimming, running, and being outdoors mostly.

40:13

TAMAR: Awesome. Awesome. Well, I love it. I think that sometimes not everybody’s a gym. Right? And that’s fine right now. I can identify with that. There’s no gym. Right?  But I understand and being outdoors is something that I think a lot of people preaches, it’s so important to be one with nature and to appreciate what you have going on. I think for me, personally, I love doing that, like at 10 o’clock at night, 11 o’clock at night. People are at home.

PARUL WADHWA: Which is as well.

TAMAR: Yeah. Well, I don’t know about that. Not for me. So, I’m going to do one quick wrap up question. If you can give your earlier self some advice, what would you tell her. Give me about 30-second answer.

40:54

PARUL WADHWA: I think my 30-second answer would be listen to others before you. So, I think the biggest mistake I ever made, I was brave, which is good. If I was turned back, I say I wouldn’t be this brave. This is daunting for me. So, if I look back, I don’t  usually this kind of person. Or my younger self didn’t really look up to people or listen to advice or look for mentors. And that was something I would really advise myself to. Also, step into other people’s shoes. It really helps or instead of just following, creating a new path, follow somebody’s path. It definitely somebody who’s been there, has done that before, so heed some advice.

41:43

TAMAR: Awesome. I love it. Okay. Yeah. So, thank you so much. I appreciate you spending your time, sharing your journey with me. And I look forward to learning and seeing a little bit about the creations that you’ve made. I wonder if there’s a way I can experience this VR. I hope I can get into this, understand a little bit more about your reality from my perspective, from my chair, and hopefully other people will be able to benefit from the beauty you’ve created in the world as well.

42:20

PARUL WADHWA: Absolutely. I would love to share that one with you, which you can share with the audience as well. And thank you, Tamar for this podcast and for this lovely chat. I really enjoyed talking to you. So, thank you so much.

42:34

TAMAR: Yeah. All right.

Betsy Furler may have a child who truly needs full time care, but she makes sure that she takes care of herself—and it makes her a better mother and businesswoman.

Alora May’s business, SAM AND LANCE, which requires heavy travel, took a pivot away from the usual global marketplace and instead moved into self-care kits. Learn her story and how she got there and make the decision to change the trajectory of her business.

TAMAR: Hi. So today, May 26, I’m starting to acknowledge dates again. I am currently in phase one of reopening in my city and my state in New Rochelle, New York. And today I have Alora May, she’s going to share a little bit about where she is, what she’s doing, what her life has been like since this craziness hit us. Thank you so much for coming

ALORA MAY: Yeah. Thanks for having me. So, I’m actually in Toronto right now. I think we’re kind of in sync almost in terms of when phases are opening. And we’re just announced the same thing where no street level stores can open. But of course, it’s still a really uncertain time. And with the weather getting warmer, people don’t know what to do with themselves.

TAMAR: Yeah, I actually was considering going to Canada, maybe Niagara Falls or something like that for the summer. And I’m thinking to myself, “Wait a minute. Is Canada going to let me in? Are the Canadian borders still closed?” I guess that might happen for that might be an issue for a while. The annoying thing is that I’m not a threat to anybody in Canada because I had the virus. Yet the borders are still closed because they’re not going to treat one person differently than the rest of the world. So that’s unfortunate. But nonetheless, tell me a little bit about what your personal experience was. Like what you’re doing now, what you do, all those things?

ALORA MAY: Yeah, I’m the founder of Sam & Lance. We’re an online marketplace that has sustainable goods made by women worldwide. So, I was pretty lucky of my day-to-day didn’t change much as I was used to working remotely. My sister is the co-founder, and she works in Singapore. So, we’re pretty separate and virtual as a company in general. But of course, everything else stopped, like I couldn’t go to the co-working space. And we really did just shift our offering as well. We saw this happening with COVID. And we launched what we call a care crate. It’s like a gift box full of self-care items. And for each one purchased, we donate one to frontline health care workers. So, we actually saw a big increase in terms of people interacting with our business. And we saw a big boost because we’re doing this philanthropic effort to help health care workers. That’s what we’ve been doing and hustling and trying to work through in the past couple months. It’s really been great. But I’ve been really lucky that my day-to-day hasn’t been too affected.

TAMAR: Well, that’s you pivoted in such an amazing way. I love idea; me what’s in those care packages, I want to know.

ALORA MAY: Yeah, so we have 5 different items. There’s incense, a candle, there’s a hydrating balm, because of course, with masks and washing your hands, your skin just gets raw. And there’s an essential oil roll-on. And there’s a natural lip balm as well.  So, we tried to make it really inclusive for anybody that wanted to purchase it.

TAMAR: So cool. It’s interesting, you’re doing this as well. My whole story actually had a rise-above- the-ashes, experience. And scent was what brought me out of the depression that was basically a decade long, and then I hit rock bottom. I put on perfume and perfume for me was my awakening. And then I realized that I need to take advantage of my sense of smell and use it for the better. So, I have this podcast called the Common Scents podcast since being the smell of scents. And I’ve been working to build this up for a really long time. And you know, obviously COVID-19 affected us in unprecedented ways. Everybody doesn’t want to hear that buzzword but it’s true. And I was going to launch in first, it was March then it was like, “Who knows?” And I decided on a whim I’m going to do it. Last week I did a soft launch officially because I realized that this is a time you need to do it. Fragrance is very sexualized in general, especially in personal fragrance. I said to myself, that’s not what this is. You need to actually feel you need to have that experience, those experiences through incense, through essential oils. As soon as you said that I realized I have some essential oils in my drawer here and I want to put them on. I just didn’t want to do it. Don’t want to be weird doing it right now. But I totally do want to do it. Because it’s amazing experience. Having your sense of smell is such an empowering thing. So, I love it. I love what you did. I absolutely love it.

ALORA MAY: Congrats on your launch. That’s huge, especially during this time. And, you know, people don’t really realize how powerful scents are. And it’s much more than yeah, just a fancy perfume. It really helps ground you, it can get you through different times. It can bring you back to a certain moment and calm you down. So, congrats on that.

TAMAR: Yeah. Very scary, amazing, like, “Would things have been different? Would I have made more money if I didn’t do because it’s a crowdfunding campaign right now? And would have I made more money under different circumstances?” Maybe, maybe not. There’s no way to know. And honestly, I don’t have regrets when I did it because I think it’s important to kind of acknowledge that we’re not going out with our friends anymore. So, we might not be compelled to put on perfume. And maybe in the retail marketplace, perfume sales will have failed. But if you position the products in a way that it brings you back to your happy place, it hopefully will soar. So, we’ll see.

ALORA MAY: Is something figured out?

TAMAR: Exactly, exactly. You definitely do it for yourself. Yeah. So, tell me how you got to your position in building out your marketplace. And I mean, obviously, before your pivot, tell me a little bit about that trajectory.

ALORA MAY: Yeah, so my undergrad right out of high school was actually in Fine Arts with a minor in Marketing. And when I graduated, I had no idea what I wanted to do, I fell into Advertising. So, I worked in Advertising for quite a few years as a producer, and then I wanted to do my MBA at the Paris School of Business because I knew that I wanted to do something entrepreneurial. But still wasn’t really sure what that was, I came back to Toronto and kept working in Advertising. And then finally just quit. I didn’t have an idea; I didn’t have a game plan. I kind of took some time and traveled. I love traveling as many people do, but one of my favorite things while traveling is going to markets. And seeing the people that are local and selling the things that they make, or the things that they’re really proud of. And I wanted to create a space that would elevate and be a platform for these people to sell their products and get it to a larger audience. So that’s really where the idea was born. And another thing that was really important to me, too, was in these markets. It’s 90% or more women that are creating and selling these products and supporting themselves and their family. So, every product on Sam & Lance is created by women. And I think it’s so important to support women not only locally, but of course worldwide. Because the more that we can support and the more that we can give our consumer dollars to women who found it and own companies or artisans is just so important in my mind.

TAMAR: I love it. And I have to admit, it’s one of the best things when you’re a tourist to just go to these shops and to actually see what people are doing, what people are creating. So, I love the fact that you’re bringing it together. And what’s your representation, like the countrywide representation? Because I assume you have so many different countries and I guess nationalities. I don’t really know the types of people who are represented in your marketplace.

ALORA MAY: That’s a great question. When I started, I really wanted it to be full global marketplace. And we do have quite a few different countries represented. Right now, I say that it’s 60% or more North America. That’s just the people that I met or I’m connected with, but we have artisans from Ghana or from the Dominican or Mexico or different places in the world. But I would love to see in the next few years to make it just really span the entire world and all these different countries there because that’s what’s so fun to me.

TAMAR: Yeah, it’ll be so fun for you to travel and negotiate. That’s actually a lot of fun. I just think you get so many benefits from it. You get the travel, you get the negotiation, you’re going to learn how to negotiate in different cultures because the cultural society is just very different. I’ve worked in many global companies, and we actually have communication seminars and how to talk to people from different countries. So, it’s actually really great skills that you’re going to get. And yeah, just the commerce component and all those other fun things. That’s so cool. I’m very impressed. So, I’m sharing the link, but I’m just super excited to see everything.

ALORA MAY: Yeah.

TAMAR: Yeah, awesome. One of the core components of this podcast is your story where you kind of overcome something that has been very difficult, your rise-above-the-ashes story. So, I’m going to lead into that kind of story and where you are now? Honestly, you sound like you’re in a very good place. You already pivoted; you did some amazing things. Tell me a little bit about that.

ALORA MAY: Yeah, I mean, nothing is easy. When you look at someone’s success story, people just think that they went from point A to point B with no issues in between. But as I mentioned, when I left my full-time job, I was making six figures and I just felt like I needed more. I was also going through a divorce at the time, I was just really lost. And it took me a really long time to even find out that I wanted to do this, that I wanted to create this marketplace. And then even now, I’m putting so much of my own investment into it out of my own pocket because I believe in it so much. But I’m still not paying myself anything from this because I just believe in it so much. And I want the money to go back to all the artisans at this time as we grow. So, yes, I’m so happy and so proud of where we are, but it was a struggle and still is a struggle. But I’m just so happy for the community that I’ve created, the suppliers and the artisans that we have as part of our family, and the people that I have on my team. It is just so beautiful to see it continue to grow and flourish month over month, even during this crazy time that we’re in right now.

TAMAR: Yeah, it’s really important to highlight the fact that the entrepreneurial struggle is real. And unless you’re watching Shark Tank, how many people don’t recognize that we in the beginning we’re just pouring money into it, we’re not getting money out of it. And we’re doing it for some incredible success and their pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. But you never know. Well, I can’t say you never know, I don’t want to say that right now for myself and for you. But this is what it is, this is our reality. our reality is climbing the side of the mountain and hoping that you’ll be able to hit that peak. I’m sure there might be especially if you’re a novice and you’re not really sure how to climb that mountain. You might hit some rocks and fall a little bit. But then eventually, hopefully, you’ll be able to climb, pick yourself back up and bring yourself to a place where you’re going to be and everybody’s going to be super excited, and you’re going to be super successful. And everybody’s just going to reap the benefits. It’s going to be a win-win for you, for the artisans, for the clients, customers. I think everybody needs to realize that there’s a lot to it. It’s a lot of hard work. It’s grueling work, it’s not easy. The entrepreneurial lifestyle is definitely not as simple as what it seems.

ALORA MAY: It’s funny, every time there is a big struggle or a roadblock, my sister and I always laugh. My sister, as I mentioned, is the co-founder. We’re like, “This is going to be a great story when we’re super successful.” And we can laugh about this happening. So, just realizing that this is the time to grind and to work really hard. And we see the growth and we see what this can be and just continuing moving forward because we really believe in it. And we believe in all the people that we have, all the people that we support, and the mission behind it.

TAMAR: Yeah, it’s important. It’s funny because being new right now, I had incredible self-belief, and I was like, “This is going to be amazing. I’m going to launch this.” This was not a Kickstarter, but I was thinking about a Kickstarter. I’m going to launch this crowdfunding campaign, and it’s going to be incredible.

But then I had some doubts in terms of PR, especially. I have a great story, but I don’t know if the reception is 100% there. And I was very conflicted. And I’m still kind of conflicted. But my friend from college reached out to me last night, and she wrote this completely out of the blue. And she’s like, “It’s amazing, you’ve COVID-19 and now you’ve launched a brand”. And she said the most incredible things. And I said to myself, I need no positive affirmations. I don’t have self-doubt right now. But it’s obviously a struggle. And I decided to screenshot what she shared on messenger and even though there’s a bunch of icons in the way like it’s my wallpaper so I can see that and believe the fact it came from somebody else. It was completely unsolicited and I need that self-belief. So, it’s about those types of things. Those things I think would help your self-belief; reinforce why you’re doing what you’re doing. Because when it’ll be hard, hopefully there will be an opportunity for you to booster yourself up either coming from within, coming from without that sometimes you need to have that external reinforcement to help you push yourself from within.

ALORA MAY: Yeah, I love that. You don’t really realize how much a message mean. When someone sends it to you, it might hit the right time or the right nerve and that’s beautiful. But I love posting it on the desktop background or up on a wall.

TAMAR: Yeah. Well, I would never have thought to do that. But then I said to myself, “There’s nothing else there. It’s just like a big emoji.” And then like this thing that she actually said, I’m going to read out loud, I’m going to actually even call attention to it. She said it’s funny. I’m watching Shark Tank as we speak now. And I always wonder how these people got to where they are. The successful ones are honest, passionate, hardworking, willing to be vulnerable about their journey and courageous to take bold steps with intelligence and creativity. You have all those qualities, and they will make the most important ingredients in your success. I have so much confidence in you. And I said to myself, this is what I needed to hear. And I even thought it looks ridiculous as my locked screen and desktop wallpaper. But wallpapers, I need to see that. And I have been visiting it again and again. Because sometimes you have to write those affirmations and use it, you struggle to believe it. But now I’m believing it because it’s coming from somebody, seriously. I mean the last time I saw her in person was maybe in my wedding in 2005. But 2003 was like when we were in school together. So, it’s been a long time. It’s just nice to hear that 17 years later, it makes me feel beautiful.

ALORA MAY: I love that.

TAMAR: Yeah, so I’m going to ask you this, obviously with your products, and totally this necessity for self-care. Let me ask you the impetus for your pivot to self-care. I mean, obviously, it was important, and I definitely see the value. But tell me about how that happened. And tell me about how you’re doing it yourself. And if anything has changed as a result of the Coronavirus sheltering in place or whatever you’re doing otherwise.

ALORA MAY: Yeah, we all really need self-care right now, and for the care crates, we definitely focused on the self-care items that I mentioned before because we all really need some self-care right now. And it’s one that we should all focus on even if it’s as small as just lighting an incense stick or using a roll-on, lighting a candle, or using a natural lip balm. And also we want to give something back to these healthcare workers. It was just something really small for us. We feel we can’t do anything big, we can’t create a vaccine, we can’t change the world, but we can try to make someone’s day a little bit better by giving them a few tools to maybe help with their self-care, maybe help them calm down after a long shift in the ER or whatever they’re doing to help our world right now. So, we really focused on self-care with those care crates, and then in terms of my own self-care, it’s definitely shifted, and with all of this going on, I used to wake up at six or quarter to six and go to the gym for an hour and come home and go for a run and do all of these things. Go to yoga, go to a yoga class quite a few times a week, but now I just don’t have the energy or the motivation to wake up that early or to do an hour-long workout at home or even do anything like that. So just giving myself permission to take what I need and take the time that I need, whether it’s just going for a 30-minute walk and giving my mom a call and catching up with her or doing a 20-minute yoga workout at home and maybe three times a week instead of every single day. So, I’ve just really shifted into allowing myself to self-care less than I was doing before and knowing that that’s okay. And then I’ve also been scheduling it into my calendar like 7:30 in the morning. I’m going for a walk 2 pm to get some fresh air.

TAMAR: It’s good. I think the calendar is a commitment. And that’s where we should come from. Right? I don’t know, I’m making it up. But it’s funny for the last couple of weeks, given the fact that we’re almost in or it’s March. Yeah, April, May, June, we’re almost hitting three months for us. We had it early because I live in the city that had the first confirmed case of community spread of Coronavirus. So, I’ve actually been quarantined since March 3. With everybody else, that’s like the end of March. So, everybody was going to the gym, and I wasn’t. I remember calling the gym up initially and I told them I’m in quarantine and they freaked out. They’re like, “We need to call the Department of Health. Don’t worry, we’ll be able to get you back in soon.” And so, it was hilarious. And then they shut down. Like finally my quarantine ended. Or so I thought because then I found out I had the virus. Well the quarantine began for the rest of the world. I had a mild case. I definitely had shortness of breath, and it was difficult. So, I also found myself running and then I was walking and then against the COVID-19 weight wise because I’ve been helping the restaurants stay in business by feeding members of my community and I felt financially obligated to support them as well. So, I ended up getting quite a few things. So, yeah, quite a few things. That’s an understatement. But anyway, this past week, I found out that there’s this thing called the NYCRUNS Subway System Challenge. Basically, the subway system in New York City is 245 miles long. And they decided to say, between Labor Day and I guess September when school starts, that you should be committed to running or walking 245 miles during that time. So, I’ve been pretty lax, like really, really lax, and I decided to try to do it. So yesterday I ran two miles, today ran four, so I’m so proud of myself because the max I’ve ever run is four.

ALORA MAY: Wow.

TAMAR: But the fact that I’m showing up I think will motivate me to start really getting back into self-care regimen even though there’s a lot of gyms   right now that are not yet allowed to reopen. But some of the gyms are allowed to reopen outdoors. I don’t know if I’m so keen on working outdoors when it’s 90 degrees outside. Even now it’s in the mid-70s and for me, that’s too much. My cutoff is 75. So, we’ll see. Obviously, I have to improvise as much as possible. There’s still zoom classes, there’s these things someone was telling me about, body pump. I’ll figure it out. But I do want to get back to a committed self-care routine. It’s nice. It’s nice to hear what you’re doing because it’s in the direction that you’re still showing up. You’re not doing what you’re doing because I’m not waking up early. I’m not working. I’m not saying I’m waking up at six o’clock in the morning. But things are different. And I love what you’re doing. And I love the fact that you still haven’t completely neglected everything because right now it is very easy to neglect everything.

ALORA MAY: Yeah, I try things even if I’m really bad at it. Like I’m trying to meditate. I will check my phone every few minutes during that 10-minute meditation to see how much longer I have. But I’m still trying, I’m still putting paint on and pressing play. But I might be horrible at it.

TAMAR: Well, I got to say that’s amazing. Thank you for validating something that I’ve been doing. I always meditate. I can do it either. I actually have a lifetime subscription. And I haven’t done it for a while. I was very committed to doing it probably the first two months of the year. I was going to their daily meditations. But March came along. I used to save all of them because once you save them, they’re daily, so they rotate. So, I have to heart them. And if you don’t heart them, they disappear. If you heart them, they’ll show up. They’ll stay there. And I said, “Forget it. I’m not doing it anymore.” So that’s better than me. I say kudos to you. Even if you’re checking your phone, you’re still doing it. Yeah, awesome. Let me ask you a wrap up question. If you could tell an earlier version of yourself, give her a piece of advice, what would you tell her?

ALORA MAY: I would help her realize the future isn’t what you had envisioned. And that’s okay because it’s even better. I think that all of us have this idea and have this plan of what your life should look like and what your 10-year plan is. And sometimes you can just throw the plan away and allow for 10-year things to happen or for good to come in or change to happen. Because that’s really where the magic and the beauty sometimes lie.

TAMAR: I like that a lot.  I don’t know what I would say, especially in the context of it being better. It definitely is better but it’s so different. I majored in Computer Science thinking I would be a computer nerd. Well, I don’t want to say computer geek or something for the rest of my life. And now I’m here creating a personal fragrance brand. It’s just, I’m happy where I am. But it’s such a different plan than what I had thought my earlier version of myself would have thought just like looking at the detail. It’s very, very crazy.

ALORA MAY: I love that kind of learning from your past and your past experiences. It’s not that any of it is invalid because you’re doing something completely different. All of that was learning, all of that was amazing. And now you’re just doing something that you didn’t expect you to be doing, like creating a fragrance. How cool is that?

TAMAR:  It’s all about growth. Everybody grows in a different way. And they’re just building upon a better version of themselves. You know, we’re better than we were before. Yes, sure. There’s going to be struggles along the way but you just have to trust the process. Trust the process that you’re creating is self-created. All of this belief systems that you have, the things that you’re doing is all about what’s in your head and what you’re pushing yourself to do. And you should be pushing yourself. Cool. Well, yeah, I don’t know if there’s anything else you want to add?

ALORA MAY: No, this is great. Thank you so much for padding.

TAMAR: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for coming. And I wish you the best I hope that gyms reopen soon. And, yeah, I understand where we need to feel accountable to ourselves. And sometimes you just have to do it in the context of a group. That’s what I’ve been doing. So of course, we can do it on our own, but it’s not that easy. Yeah.

Andrea Harding overcame self doubt and struggle during her entrepreneurial journey. Yet she’s persevering because that’s what we do. Her startup, Zipgig, will likely take on the world when this pandemic is over.

Her mom died the day before she recorded this podcast. And yet, she showed up. She showed up to the United States from the Philippines and has been chasing the dream. This is Cristina Cruz Soltesz‘s story, and it’s awesome.

TAMAR: Hi, everybody, today I am enjoying somebody else’s outdoors. In my podcast, we got the audio  and the video going on this time around, and I have Christina Cruz Soltesz. She is sitting outside in a chilly weather. I’m not entirely sure where but I am going to learn. I will say that she has a cool view. I will say that I am recording this podcast indoors because I sort of beholden to that but with the equipment that I have. But where are you? Thank you so much for joining.

00:50

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Hi, Tamar, this is Christina and I am based here in San Francisco, California. It’s not always as sunny as I like to enjoy the days, but these are early. So, who knows maybe in a little while the sun’s going to come out? And yeah, I’m enjoying the outdoors, a great time to breathe some good air and catch all of you and your viewers or your listeners.

01:23

TAMAR:  Yeah. Well, I forgot it’s early there. It’s 9am. So, you’re obviously not peaking in your day. I’m sorry for asking a clearly weird question, but what is the weather like in spring in San Francisco? I assume that you’re  kidding the 70s now, or like in the 50s and the 60s because you are wearing a sweatshirt?

01:50

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Because it’s like I said, there are days when at this time and even earlier the sun is already showing up. And you can see it in the windows, you feel it once you go out and you walk around. So, we have microclimate here. It’s kind of tricky, which part of the city you’re in. And then even when you say spring and everybody kind of associate the city with fog. It’s not really as predictable as we like to envision it with how the city is described. Again, it’s just these microclimates, the timing, and the changes that’s happening right now. So lately, I’ve been able to walk around and enjoy some sun. And yet, there are days I can’t remember how many times it rained. I don’t even remember experiencing rain. So I’m getting a lot of sunny days right now and cloudy or days with fog.

03:03

TAMAR: I just can’t imagine; I grew up in Florida. So, my comparison is South Florida. But if it was May 14 in South Florida, I’d be outside wearing shorts. And probably these days I’d be like naked because global warming made it so that I’m so high.

03:22

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, you go a little bit towards the Bay Area. Of course, you get a lot more sun. But hey, there’s a different vibe in the city. It’s different population here. I’m enjoying every chance that I can.

03:41

TAMAR: Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask you another question about your area. Like what is it? We’re still in the midst of Coronavirus here. And I’m kind of curious to hear; I know that there was an outbreak in your area. I’m not sure how significant it was and how the impact direct to you. I’m in New York. So, we definitely had, in a big way. But how was it? How has it been over there?

04:05

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ:  Before I even understood what allergies meant having moved here, I find that people have always been hyper cautious of so many different things and allergic to stuff that you never even realize exists. And so, I think it’s just consistent reaction and way of dealing with the environment and with each other. So, there’s not much change and how the kind of people that chose San Francisco or we’re really here or moved here, interact and how they respond to something like that.  Like I said, it’s just natural for a lot of people here to be ahead in terms of precautionary measures. So that’s how, given the density of this place and the size of it. Right? That is California.

05:19

TAMAR: They think New York should have figured it out, but they didn’t.

05:25

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: And I am hearing that in Korea now, after they lifted the restrictions and gotten back to normal, or something that’s hitting them again, there was a moment where they’re the stars after they were the poorest one. That’s part of all the other countries that were looked at as the source of all these and all that.

TAMAR: Right..

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: So, I try not to get too caught up in all these things. I think it’s just too intense right now. And its important to just focus on the things that are really important. Right?

06:12

TAMAR: I definitely would say that’s how I feel the politics. I don’t focus too much on it. In terms of the Coronavirus, I was sort of the same way. I had the cognizance, I had an awareness of it, and then all of a sudden, it hit my community. And all of a sudden, we had to shut down and I ended up having the virus. So, once it affects you, it’s insane. But what I think important is that, like you say, you need to be hyper vigilant, but you should not necessarily be dismissive of it. And it sounds to me that the attitude that you have is that “I have an awareness, I’m going to practice, I’m going to be smart, but I’m not going to be ridiculous, like half of the world that’s in denial that things are even happening and let’s walk around and not put other people at risk.” That is an attitude I don’t prescribe.

06:56

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah.

06:58

TAMAR: Okay, cool. So, tell me what you do. Where, what, and I assume you have some trajectory of how you got to where you are today. So, tell me a little bit about what that look like.

07:12

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLSTESZ: Oh, it’s a real journey. So, I was born and raised in the Philippines, and in the province. I was really in a similar space of many who were very down because there’s some sort of a disconnect in your realities, or you’re going to say, college and all the great stuff. Then back home, you experience something so personal, that does not connect with what you have, or that you’re able to access.  So, I just couldn’t keep going in the way I normally function. And so, I just said, I’m going to let go of this beautiful haven or paradise, and I’m just going to be there where this is bothering me. So, I’m back and then just kind of spend time doing that.  Then at some point, a person connected me virtually during the beginnings of the internet I suppose, or my familiarity with the internet. At the really earliest stage, someone virtually connected with me, who comes from an extremely techie world, and a geek at that. And then the culture is also like more European, and just very different from mine. And so, because of that interaction, I ended up creating these artifacts that I’ve never really done before where I brought the tribe groups in the mountains. The Philippines is made up more than 7,000 Islands. So, what I did was, I connected a couple of different artists and put together like a four-day art festival  of some sort where there’s workshops and there’s theater musical, there’s martial arts, there’s all these different galleries. All these different activities in four days that I was able to get completely sponsored. And having done that, I had no background and doing something like that, I just didn’t know that it was not a natural thing for everyone. I just  sort of wanted to have an outlet. All the things that I was experiencing inside, puppets show what I want, if I was good there, or if I was dreaming that someone would give me a gift, an experience that I could never have imagined for, or see. And so, from there, the person that inspired me or showed me that I had it, that I could dream, create something that was sort of magical. I got invited further and then from then on, the next thing, I knew, I have this whole new life here in California. Now my goal is to be able to link, share and be the source of that Golden Gate Bridge spirit that shares my experiences and accomplishments here back home as a jumping point. But everywhere else where I can, creating that relationship and that whole because when you live the way I migrated, it’s a certain shock. People who never experienced that transition probably not understand that it involved so much during that journey and the processes that go through.

TAMAR: Right.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ:  And it’s just like really, you’re waking up every day and thinking give me that rest. So now, here me use outdoor views, right?”

11:57

TAMAR: Yeah. Well, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. Coming from the Philippines is a big deal, a lifestyle. The standard of living, I mean, coming from there especially, got to be crazy. My husband went to Cambodia in October. And just  the difference, you could buy a chicken sandwich there for $3. And you buy it here for like, 15. It’s crazy that the hotels are $7 a night in the normal hotels. And those four-star hotels, it’s good.

12:36

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: I can promise you one thing. It’s disorienting.

12:42

TAMAR: That’s a very fair way to say it. So, I’m sure for you, you must have had some massive culture shock in terms of everything.

12:50

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: It’s just the expectation. I think it’s more than the expectations of people. Who you think that you should anchor on, or anchoring yourself to and the reality is a nation that is beyond that, and it’s really what you make of it.

13:10

TAMAR: Right? Yeah. So how long ago was this that you came to California?

13:18

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: It was like the y2k craziness where they say, “Oh, 2000 digits, everything is down because of the binary code.”  And this guy was in panic. I remember I was in Hong Kong. It was a fantastic trip and my mom was “You better get your ass back.”

13:44

TAMAR: That’s so funny. Oh my God. It’s like, “Wow, look at you. You look like you’re not that.” Like this happened 20 years ago. I will say that.

13:54

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, it’s fine. Like, quite a ride.

13:59

TAMAR: Well, that’s amazing. I’m going to say that’s very, very cool. You get to travel a lot. Do you have your family still there?

14:12

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: It’s a very good question. I do have family there. My mom actually just passed away. She passed away yesterday.

14:23

TAMAR: Oh, what? What do you mean the podcast today?

14:25

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah.

14:26

TAMAR: I am so sorry.

14:29

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Here’s why. If there was something that I can share with my mom right now and that’s going to crack her up, it’s this. Exactly the way we roll.

14:40

TAMAR: I love it. But at the same time, I’m so sorry. We’re like another side of the country. And I just oh, man.

14:47

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, and if you imagine this time where COVID is a reality and an experience beyond your wildest dream for the people in those type of countries, it is definitely not something you would want to miss, or you would want to not know about. It’s just like, it’s beyond. And that’s why I think it’s even more compelling for me, given that the things that I watch from far away as somebody who decided to chase the dream, be part of that rainbow. Then, look at the other side and say, why? And then all of a sudden, you’re wrapped up in that what, and that how, and that why. And then you start looking at yourself and thinking  what am I going to do? And that’s where you see yourself rise up about anything, even yourself.

TAMAR: I love that.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: And that’s just how you gotta figure it out. What a scooter.

15:56

TAMAR: I like it. I like it. Yeah, let me tell you something. So, I know that the Coronavirus is now a global thing. And the world, every single country is reacting in a certain way. But at the same time, I take the same attitude. This is unprecedented, have to see to some degree and I think this word is offensive to some people. But it’s cool. Like, we are living something that is freakin historical. It is the perspective that you have on it. First of all, we’re all living it together. But we’re living something so incredibly different together. And I think that particular perspective is so important. I think that instead of everybody saying “Oh my God, we’re all in the bad place, like let’s be sad. Is it tiger, chicken pooh?” let’s jump around. Let’s milk the presence for what it’s worth. Find the silver lining, try to do things that you can do while you’re living that moment. And eventually we will go all living our lives the same, almost the same way that we used to in the past. I think a lot of people don’t look at it with that perspective. They look at it as oh, my God, it’s the end of the world. Listen, it’s not going to last forever, we’re all going to get through it. Things are going to suck for a while. I mean, I was in depression, I was depressed for 10 years. I didn’t really have an awareness of it for nine years.  And nothing lasts forever. It really doesn’t. I used to be super self-conscious,   I was afraid of how people would think about me. And then I started to think it’s really me being hard. It’s more of my own insecurity. And even the worst things that happened people eventually forget, like the worst thing to happen. Like, I don’t know if you’re going to forget Bernie Madoff scandal but like, if you say something a little bit too controversial. Okay, so the news will be on it for you have your 15 minutes of fame, and then things move on. And that’s it. That’s how I look at the world. I think that eventually we are all going to be fine.

18:32

TAMAR: So yeah, you say that you’re rising, like you have this rise above the ashes story. And you kind of talk about it through that. So, tell me, do you have a specific story that you’d want to talk about? I know, like you love the positive attitude. So, I’m sure I’m going to get some nice tidbits from you. But I’m kind of curious to hear.

18:51

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, you’re going to get a lot of different things. And I like to be able to present different things in the best way in the smoothest way possible. I mentioned before that I’m also on olive oil so many years. I went through this program in September of 2019. So that’s a few months back. And I have very strong relationships with some purchasers  of olive oil. And that’s the healthiest fruit that you have in terms of what great stuff you can get from it; polyphenols and all the things that you wish you would incorporate in your system so that you can thrive and you could stay beautiful and you could feel beautiful and you can be the best that you can imagine. I try to do the same thing with olive oil. You  have this mix of greens, and you try to bring the best quality ingredients that you can put together and blend it and then you create an experience that’s elevated. And then you put that in yourself. And wow, this is me now. I’m this Wonder Woman, or Superman, or Batman or whatever superheroes that you feel; or Popeye for the Spanish. So, I like to blend different things. And one of the things that I experienced in this season is just, I’m not sure if I would say that, I would come back to the same person and be okay with everything that’s going on, and be okay watching the people that are very far from me. Experiencing  things that to me, in this country where we live, you in New York and me in California, where it’s almost our own countries where we have a population, where we fight for our freedom. We stand up for our beliefs and know how to engage in conversations and debates. And looking at the Philippines and the Filipinos, we’re known for, and what’s ingrained in our DNA is to care and give up ourselves. Because of that, even the way we handle a burial is ridiculously different.

TAMAR:  Right?

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Having said that, I’m going to tell you by the way, my mom had to be placed in the ground where she has to be. I barely had time to blink, and they put this on us, on my family. And I practically drive here doing this, all the things I do in my world that looks to a lot of people outside seems to be the paradise. I think that unless I’m able to have people that I care for join me and experience this paradise, it’s never really going to be that. And so, if you ask me again that change, I’m never ever really going to be that same person I was yesterday, five minutes ago, three seconds ago, I’m not. And I think that everybody just needs to look at it the way it is, outside ourselves, and understand how that connects to the very core of who we are at the very basic chemical that were made of, just to our core, to the thing that binds us together, to what unifies us as an entire fastness of many different things. How do we just resolve this without having to always trigger pain and trauma and chaos? The heck, do we just figure the freakin thing out?

TAMAR: Yeah.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ:  And that takes this process. And that’s when you say, “I look at it, it’s great.” Yes, that part, I will agree that it is something great is our perspective. And it is relative to who experiences a moment with each other. And so, it is important really to be conscious of that use of each other. So, when we see something, it’s a signal, many different things from nature, from the people across for the person next you yourself that you can’t even recognize. It’s a signal. So, always send the right signal, then be conscious.

23:44

And it’s not enough that we just sit down. Look at what’s going on the TV, look at what’s going on in the news, but interact and engage ourselves with real things, real people, real invite. See how easy hitting each other.

24:05

TAMAR: Right? The perspective I like to embrace and I think this is not something I was able to live or do for a very long time and it ties into this but a little bit not so directly to today’s Coronavirus. I think it’s very important for us to be socially responsible for the sake of our neighbors.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Right.

TAMAR:  I think that that’s fine. And I think that that’s what you’re trying to say also. But I think also in our context of what we’re doing in business, we also need to kind of embrace an abundant mindset, and this is something that I personally wasn’t able to understand for a very long time, that we feel  that there’s a lot of scarcity and there’s a limited amount of things that we don’t want to share. We don’t want to celebrate our peers’ successes because they might sacrifice our own.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yes.

TAMAR:  And yes, I felt that way for a long time. I would say that I was not happy that this person got hired for this job. I thought, maybe I could have gotten it, and I didn’t. I couldn’t understand some of these things that were going on in the world. And it was very difficult. And recently I realized I’m going to launch a business; I might upset people. I might make people jealous. But at the same time, I’m not going to. I’m a member, like we met in a women’s founders’ group, I think. And I want to celebrate every single woman founder’s success, everybody’s success. I will never be jealous that this person is more financially stable than I am. I’m never going to  look at the world that way. And I think most of us do. And that’s  when we didn’t take a massive risk like this. We need to be open, have this caring mindset. That’s why it kind of ties into what you’re saying, have a caring mindset and be happy for everybody’s gain. Because if you are, you will gain too.

26:14

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah. Their win is your win. That’s correct.

26:17

TAMAR: Yeah. If you look at that either way, the world is working against you. It’s never about the other person. It never is. Don’t make it about yourself. Don’t look at it that way. And it’s very difficult. I’ve been trying to articulate that to people. Like I’ve made a decision, I didn’t even think about him, like some people all of a sudden think like, what?  And it’s not about you. It’s about the fact that if I’m pursuing my business, I’m making my business. I wish I can figure out the exact example.

26:46

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: I think I understand why some people’s businesses directly impact others. And because of that connection and that impact itself disturbs them. It disturbs their way of running their business or living and that kind of reaction to each other is what makes it chaotic. And so, I get that. It’s a challenge or a resistance to others if it does not sync up with them. So, the thing is the piece that makes it crucial. And how do you really do that? Again, like I said, it’s a signal that you’re sending out. And the way you signal that you throw that.  So how do I look at that? Not too long ago, I had a talk with someone from the Federal Reserve. She handles the cultural part. But when I shared with her the other projects that I have going on, she was excited. She says, “I really need that.” But people in the startup scene, the founders need to be conscious of the fact that when you scale, you got to look at the  security part and notice how many security companies are going up right now because of the scaling part. It’s so prone to getting exploited as well. I think even small businesses doesn’t even have to scale like that. But maybe because of your size and the fact that you’re a small business, it’s easier to control and manage. But if you become that kind of monster, you’re rambling. Right? Then that’s like, “How the heck is this virus?” And when you’re in the startup scene, one of the things that investors will ask you is the virality. And forgetting that component of security part, how does that get exploited? Like for me, as much as “Oh, I love the use, I love kids, and I love happiness and all these everyone who’s actually anti that or exploits that will follow me too. And will catch everything that I catch, because I’m in it. I mean, all they got to do is run to me, and they get the heck, how do you manage something as bizarre, like dual stack, that polarity, that synchronicity. How the heck do you do that? And so that’s where all this complexity comes in. And it’s understandable that you want and still go through those things, if you engage in those kinds of conversations with everybody trying to say, “Hey, come on. We all have enough.” But yeah, I think it’s when that really sinks in where you just find your spot. Everybody’s got a role here. Everybody’s got a playground. We just got to have the most and best of our time.

30:04

TAMAR: Right. You need to be receptive to this type of message. Not everybody is but there’s a great author that I like to read , and his books are amazing. Robin Sharma really  says a lot of this. He says that he has one of his more recent books, The Leader Who Had no Title,  like everybody can lead. They don’t necessarily have to have a specific designation to who they are, that everybody can be the CEO of the company. You’re the CEO of your specific role even if you’re not necessarily CEO of a company. Like that’s the philosophy that I think people need to understand. We were all put on this earth for a reason. Let’s take advantage of it and seize the day and find our calling. It’s going to take some time. I didn’t find my calling for 30 something years, and all of a sudden, I figured it out. I’m hoping that this is the right call, but you never know.

30:53

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: You’re sounding it. You got the accent yourself. , I’ve been seeing her voice.

TAMAR: Yeah. I have no regrets for where I am. I’m glad I needed to suffer adversity. I needed to endure some hardship before I got to where it was. But at that point, I wasn’t seeing the world in this light. And I think for most people it takes a lot of growing, takes a lot of traumas at a certain point to recognize there’s good after that bad. I don’t think I see that.

31:30

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, endurance.

31:35

TAMAR: You’re going to do this and build up a lot of endurance. You might have to do it at a different pace. Actually, interesting thing. Like I’m a runner, or I try to be a runner. And I’m a very slow runner. If I were working, if I were running faster, I wouldn’t have the endurance. But slower, I can run a lot. I run farther sprint’s not knowing it’s a marathon, not a sprint. But if you think about you can never, you can’t run the same 100. You can’t run the same speed for 100-meter race as you won’t be doing for a mile or more. Unless you’re like Hussein or something. But that’s something you need to think about,  you need to work at a slower pace and you’re going to find some obstacles on the way. Anyway, going to that because I’m talking about self-care, I want to hear a little bit about what you do besides sitting outside and enjoying  all the sun, which is good because vitamin D is apparently great for the Coronavirus.

32:35

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, it does so much for you even mentally, and it connects you to Earth. It connects you to the source of energy. I mean, what does sun do to us. Right? plants get it all day long, all night long. That’s what they base with sunshine and the moon shine. So, I do try to connect with nature, I ride. I have a lot of creative people around me, I also have a lot of engineers, folks around me. So, I have a blend of people with the same interests that I have. I dance a lot. Recently, one of the things that I started was a new page that has a lot more of my dance video blog, sort of where I engage with some apps that become sort of a repository for me, for people who are looking at body movements as a way to communicate, and the songs itself incorporated in the body movement. Then the layout meaning of this, this images that you can use so that you can amplify your message or play around the message. So, I do a lot of that goofing around, as I have always done goofing around.

TAMAR: It is good, goofing around.

33:58

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, it’s tinkering.

TAMAR: What makes you happy. That’s the important thing.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, it’s a mindset. So, you look at things and you just say, “I’m going to figure this out.” And that figuring out, that’s another thing where it’s like a puzzle. You’re figuring out but really, I am figuring out the complexity of life and the complexity of our nature and ourselves. Right. Our relationships with everyone, what I’m very good at, and what I’m natural with is building connections, building relationships in the most authentic possible ways I could. So, if you notice, that’s the same way I carry this one very organic, very natural, and let’s roll, let’s flow and let’s just keep moving, and that’s what is important. I think in terms of self-care, keep moving in the same way you see water. If it doesn’t flow, then it stagnates. And then that’s probably the worst thing that you can ever put in our system. And same with so many things. There’s the seasons change. And so, you see if a plant grows, we want to remove the dead leaves and the fruits that are rotting and all that because it sucks out all the energy that could be distributed in the parts that’s functioning so well. So, in order to have that healthy circulation, even with plants and trees and flowers, you have to know and understand how life springs in it and how it flows in it and understand how to take care of that. And that’s how I deal with myself. I just go out, I reach out, I reach in, and I create all these movements. You swim in life, you dance through the rain, and the sun and all the changes, and you just dance. So that whole dancing part is a union. It’s a partnership, it’s a conversation. So, you have that conversation inside and outside. And then you realize there’s no separation between you and the outside. It’s a movement. And that’s just when everything synchronized. That’s when everything just connects.

TAMAR: Nice, nice, nice.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: That’s healthcare. That’s what people really just need to look at, basics. What’s natural for us to get back to nature. And be responsible towards each other and be the better version of yesterday.

36:40

TAMAR: Right. And yeah, don’t overthink, don’t overthink living your life.

36:45

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, it’ll come to you. There are other people that will come to you too. And if you can’t figure out a piece because it’s beyond your reach, someone will if you extend yourself. Well, someone will.

37:00

TAMAR: Right. Yeah.

37:03

TAMAR: Cool. Well, let me ask you, I’m going to ask you a wrap up question because we’re at the wrap up time.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Okay.

TAMAR: Yeah. So, if you could tell the earlier version of Christina, if you can tell her one thing. What would you tell her?

37:18

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLSTESZ: The earlier version? I think it’s talk better. Because when you talk, you listen better. And when you talk better and listen better, you will have a better connection with everything. Your link with each other is way beyond what you could have avoided. If you wanted to avoid something, you wanted to just be sort of that perfect self. But nobody’s perfect. We are our boss, right? We are that perfect image. And if you can do that, then you’re good. That’s it.

38:07

TAMAR: Cool. I love it. I love it. I think it’s important for me. Yeah, I felt afraid to use my voice for a very long time. And now I’m feeling confident to do it. And I’m happy that I’m doing it because what I’ve been withholding and what I’m now sharing is very relatable to people who say like, “Why haven’t you been speaking for so long? So, talk better and don’t hesitate to be personal in your speaking is what I would probably add to it. Don’t like make it human? Make your speech human. Let each human talk about who you are. Let people see you through your words.

38:45

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Yeah, and even the pain. The pain sometimes is the highlight for some people. It’s sometimes the silver lining. That is the part where people actually get to understand why you do what you do. Why that way, where does this all come from when you’re showing them fragility? Freedom, embrace it like the wounds in your body. Like the process that seems so difficult. Go through it with others and just say, “It’s painful, but look, I’m  there. I’m still at the beach.”

39:34

TAMAR: Yeah, I think fragility is important. I think a lot of people try to personify themselves as the perfect being. But you know, we all have wounds and if we expose them people might just understand and might be a little more, I don’t want to say sensitive,  but understand who you are exactly. If it provides a perspective and a window into your life that might avoid the  judgments that they would otherwise have without understanding context. So, the context is important.

40:02

CRISTINA SOLTESZ: Yeah. I see the way, the power of doing digital stuff, the power of virtual connection and expedites beyond lightning, right? How we get each other, but that chemistry  when you have a person in front of you, and you not only received the voice in person live, but you actually see that person live in the flesh where you might be able to shake hands and actually see each other that way; and know that you’re not my dream, you are reality, except that you just smell, look, sound and feel like my dream. You are the real thing. Do that and people in front of you will say, “Oh, I can be that too.”

TAMAR: Yeah. You just got to tell him. Let him in. Awesome. Well, thank you so very much for meeting with me, bearing the cold San Francisco morning; the chilly morning, sitting outside, showing me your view of the nice beautiful trees because I don’t know when I’m going outside, given all these podcasts thing that I need to do and launching a business which I did this week.

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: Okay.

TAMAR: Yeah. So, thank you again. I hope I will be in touch with what’s coming and I wish you all the best.

41:35

CRISTINA CRUZ SOLTESZ: And you too.

Ashley Baxter may have unlikely roots to work in tech, but here she is, and now she’s created a career out of helping others become successful.

TAMAR: Hi, everybody. Today I am with the most amazing so far. And we’ve had our little chit-chat before our podcast, Ashley Baxter. She is the coolest. I love her already. And I haven’t even met her. But I wanted to introduce her and I want to learn about her in front of the entire community. So, thank you so much for joining, tell me where you are in the planet because I still don’t even know that. And tell me a little bit about who you are, what you do, what’s going on with your life right now. All the fun things.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for having me, to start. I also have a little secret that I probably should have told you beforehand. I’ve followed your blog for a really long time back. I think in your Mashable days, I used to follow your blog because I was in tech and copywriting and community management. So yeah, I have loved what you do for a really long time. But I’m actually in Santa Monica, California, which has been really nice. It’s gotten a little chilly over the past couple of days. Out here in sunny LA, and just live in the Silicon Beach dream at the moment and trying to stay warm.

TAMAR: So, what is it like over there right now? What’s the dynamic like because we’re still in the middle of May and we are still consider it Coronavirus chaos? I think things in my side of the world are simmering down a little bit in the context of hundreds of people had the virus. I see people still getting it but not to the same level. What is that climate like for you in the virus climate? I don’t even know how you would describe it.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Yeah, it’s definitely been interesting. So, we actually are going to a less restricted lockdown starting tomorrow. And technically it started on Friday. So, they start to lift some of the restrictions tomorrow and our parks and some of our trails are going to open back up. But I actually just had the very first person in my close-knit circle, one of my best friends, found out that she has Coronavirus yesterday, right when everything is getting ready to open back up. So, I’m sort of the thought process right now that if things are going to start opening up, that’s fine, I totally understand it. I will probably keep myself at home for at least another month or so. And I’m just going to keep practicing distancing. It’s interesting to see some people just over this entire pandemic, and start acting as if we don’t have anything to worry about. But I think there’s a lot of value still in distancing. And that’s how I plan to continue on for the moment.

TAMAR: There are three different camps of people who have experienced the virus. There is the very, very small .001% of the people, I don’t even know if it’s .001, maybe a little more than that, who had the virus, who have had proven positive and they were symptomatic, then they had negative test results, confirmed test results. In my case, I actually have done a couple of studies, with a number of research institutions here. Einstein College, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, and Columbia University. And I have a letter from one of the professors saying that I am not transmitting anymore. So, I know I’m not a risk myself, and I know that I’m not a risk to other people. So, in that case, I want to go out and about and live again. But that’s a very small amount of people. And then I just want to reopen the economy because I’m sick and tired of this stuff being closed down. And I don’t care about people hurting anymore. They’re just sick like they’re done. And then there’s the Ashley Baxter camp, where I want to be responsible because I’m starting to run into people who are starting to get the second-degree, third-degree network where I’m realizing that this virus is a lot more rampant than possible and rampant than I had thought before. And I need to act responsibly. I don’t want to say that my thing is entitled. I don’t think it is entitled, but I want to be like you, to go out and about. It’s at the end of the day it comes down to optics. And until the government has an immunity badge that I can wear I am just like everybody else if you need to be careful. I’m not going out like, the only thing I really would want to do besides what I’m doing now is go to the gym, and nobody, was already opening. So, I am stuck at home and being responsible because you never know. I mean, I’m not afraid of getting sick. And I’m not afraid of getting other people sick. I wear a mask. It’s annoying, I hate wearing a mask. And I need to do what I need to do because at the end of the day, right now, that’s the example that needs to be set. So, stay indoors as much as possible.  I would sometimes take walks at, usually, for me right now, it’s just a walk around my driveway. I will run but I will run very infrequently. And I think that’s the responsible way about going right now. I think that you’re being right about being cautious because until we figure out more, people are having more exposure. This is the responsible way to go.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Completely, completely.

TAMAR: Yeah. So, tell me, you followed me national which is amazing. And I’m so thankful for the fact that we’ve known each other, if you will, for as long as we have. Tell me what you do, what you’re doing, what might have been some interesting trajectory and how you’ve evolved from young girl to adulthood and what your career path looks like?

ASHLEY BAXTER: Yeah, for sure. So, I am not someone that most people would ever assume would be into tech.  I started at a young age. I grew up in Texas and East Texas, very, very rural area. One of my favorite things to say about the town I grew up in is that we probably had more cows than we people. I grew up a little bit in the country. But I was lucky in the fact that my mom bought me a computer at a young age. And it was like 92, she bought me a big honking Packard bell desktop before I could even connect to internet. And then when AOL came out, I was able to get online and just kind of start doodling around. But I never had any clue or any idea that that was something that I could actually turn into a career. So, I went to college, I went to school, also in Texas, and decided to study Journalism and Communication, got a degree in PR, graduated and during my very first internship, I realized this is horrible. I absolutely cannot cut newspaper clippings for the rest of my life. It is to be the worst thing ever. So, I knew that even though I had a degree, I didn’t necessarily want to apply it in the ways that I had been told in school, I didn’t need to apply it. So, I just decided to get creative. And I decided, “Okay, I have this experience from school and also really comfortable with the internet because I’ve been playing online as a kid for so long.” So, I just decided to merge those two things together before I realized that I could build a career in digital marketing and took that and ran with it. I had a lot of different opportunities in companies of various sizes. But one thing I decided to do in my career that was a little bit different was instead of picking one track and one channel of digital marketing, I decided I wanted to learn about as many different channels as I possibly could. So over time and over the years and some of the jobs that I had, I hopped around a lot. And my friends made fun of me for that. But at the end of the day, I ended up fully understanding the total digital marketing ecosystem and how everything worked together and how all the channels could play off of each other, instead of just learning one single channel. And I think that is probably the catalyst for my success and the opportunities that came up for me as a part of my career.

TAMAR: I love it. I love it. I didn’t know your story is like mine. But I want to hear your story a little more and then definitely awesome.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Yeah. So, one of the more interesting things that I got to do in my career. So, I had done black hat SEO, which I probably shouldn’t tell people that.

TAMAR: You are good because you get a holistic viewpoint of what’s the good, the bad.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Yeah, it was interesting to say like,” Okay, this is what everyone’s not supposed to be doing.” And now I know how to do all of those things. But it was crazy because I felt some type of way about doing black hat SEO when I was doing it. I was working for a company in the credit monitoring space. And it was just like the Wild West back then. There was a lot of shady stuff before the FTC regulated it. But I got my start in SEO as a black hat. J.C. Penney, I don’t know If you remember in 2012, had scandal that popped up. I got a call to go work at J.C. Penney and manage their SEO program because I had a background in black hat. Never had anyone internal, who was managing their SEO. They just outsourced and farmed everything out to an agency. And when that happened, they realized we need someone in house tell us what happened and what we need to be doing. So, I went in house and worked at J.C. Penney. That also happened to be the same time that they took a new CEO, Ron Johnson, who tried to reimagine the company and the brand. And that was a huge failure but an amazing lesson because I managed to keep my channel profitable while a lot of the rest of the business was struggling. So that was a lot of learning.

TAMAR: Before we go into there, I just want to back up just a little bit early, hit the brakes for a second. Just for anybody who’s listening to this, who has no idea what you just said at black hat SEO. I want to really double down now, black hat SEO. SEO is Search Engine Optimization. It’s basically web marketing for optimizing search engines. So, being number one on Google or being among the first couple links on Google, and being in Yahoo wherever people use searching these days. It’s usually just Google. Don’t tell anybody I just said that. And black hat SEO is doing that in a way that it’s very rapid fire. You get things done very quickly. But it’s also very unethical. And likely when Google finds you, you’re banned from the search engines. So, it’s a methodology that can work. I can’t say it’s Surefire, but it is a fire, it’s high risk. And once you’re done, once you’re caught, you’re doomed. And it’s going to take a lot of efforts to do it all again. So don’t rebuild the Empire. Don’t do it. Slowly, surely white hat. That’s the safest way to go. All right, back to you.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Yeah, black hat. Black hat is definitely not a good long-term strategy. But the good thing of that experience, I learned a lot. I know J.C. Penney learned a lot. And they were able to rebuild the site. We rebuilt the entire site back in Google’s good graces and did reestablish rankings as well, which is not the hardest thing in the world. But it was a really good lesson. From there, I ended up moving on to AT&T. They were actually launching a new brand that was a competitor for the prepaid space. It was called Aio Wireless. I don’t know if your ad or if anyone remembers that we were only around for I think about a year before we ended up merging and then rebranding Cricket Wireless. But at that time, I went to AT&T to just help with that project and ended up leading social media strategy for EO and then also for the rebrand for Cricket which was wildly successful. It’s a super fun brand and personable, people will really connect to it. So that was a great experience. After I left AT&T that was an amazing project, I ended up moving out to Los Angeles. So away for about three and a half years now. I came out here to work for a startup that’s in the local marketing space. So, I had an amazing opportunity to consult some really large brands as a principal client success. I worked with Starbucks, Scoring, Anytime Fitness, some of those brands both in the US and the UK. But after some time, I realized that I just didn’t feel fully aligned like something still was completely unsettled in my soul. So, it’s hard to do some soul searching. And I used a lot of different modalities for that energy, healing and a couple of different ways. I also did medicine and got to a point where I realized my purpose and what really makes me happy, what makes me tick is to empower other people. So, I decided to take a marketing background and it had that holistic view of understanding many channels, and I decided to launch an agency. So that’s what I do now. That’s my primary business. I help small to medium sized business owners build fully integrated marketing plans that they can focus on executing. It helps take them from struggle where they’re just grasping at a lot of different marketing strategies and tactics, executing haphazardly, not really understanding what is working for them. And provide them with a clear path that they can just focus on executing. And it helps to find success and actually growing their business and more importantly, expanding their impact.

TAMAR: Awesome. I’m going to tell you something interesting from the beginning. One of the first things you said is that you got your first computer, your Packard Bell in 1992. My first computer was also gifted to me at the end of 1992. It was an IBM ps1. And I found it wasn’t AOL at the time was actually promoted. Odd because AOL for some reason had a dedicated product for the IBM ps1 computer which was basically prominent, which eventually married into AOL, rebranded into AOL, I’m not sure. But I fell in love with the online world. And that was really my impetus to go into tech as well. So, it’s funny because you basically did the same thing. And when you and I were both in college, there was really no digital marketing. I actually wanted to major in computer science. I was like, “I want to do something online. So let me major in computer science because I want a computer.” And that seems to be the only thing that seems to resonate. I stuck with it because I was so dedicated to it. But I was more of the communicator. I was more of the technical person, not the non-tech person on all the software engineering products. I was not the coder. I could look at code and I kind of understand it, but I don’t really understand how to build. So, I found myself working kind of a systems administrator in a digital marketing role because I was a systems administrator at a search engine marketing company, when social media marketing was starting to really kind of get a foothold. So really interesting how that dynamic like shifted and created, how AOL if you will, has raised us. I guess it’s kind of neat. We should have a story; the AOL feature, that children of AOL.

ASHLEY BAXTER: looks like seriously, I mean, even back then it was definitely the Wild West as well. Like, I was just in chat rooms, talking to people. No clue what I was doing. spending lots of time, feeling pretty certain that I was going to get arrested for downloading music from Napster.

TAMAR: Yeah, yeah.

ASHLEY BAXTER:  But it’s crazy though, because those were really, very formative years. And I think when kids are introduced to things earlier on, it does give them more insight into how they might want to craft their career in the future. Like I ended up studying public relations and communications. This is so horrible, but because Samantha from Sex and the City, was in PR I thought she made it look really cool. So, I said, “Oh, okay, I’m going to do that.” And then I did it. I was like, “This sucks. Let me figure out a way to make this fun.”

TAMAR: You wonder how many Mad Men watchers are into advertising and into unfulfilling advertising careers right now because of Mad Men? I will say that I was never into it. But I think the Madman house is like literally right around the corner for me, and I watched it maybe once or twice. I didn’t like it because of some of the other storylines. But when I was at Mashable, that was like the show that everybody talked about. It was like the culture dominated freaking food.  When the company started getting bigger, I was working remotely and everyone was in the New York office and it was an interesting cultural shift. The dynamic was really different at that point, being the only mom in the office but neither here nor there. I was not a Mad Men person. And I think that worked against me and you wonder now because it’s not that many years later but a few years later how many people have watched it and found that I need to work in advertising because of their glamorous lives. So, I don’t know.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Completely. Sometimes it all works out for you. So, stand up. That’s what we have to believe.

TAMAR: Yeah. I mean I ended up in a perfume now coming from Tech. And now how would you if that tomboy like me who fell in love with a well-built sir on computers is working in the fragrance world. It’s, you end up where you need to be even if you’re derailed from something like the Coronavirus. The whole idea is that my story is about rising above the ashes. It’s about getting yourself climbing out of the ashes, getting yourself back on the wagon and getting back on the railroad tracks. And bring yourself forward. And I think that’s a big focus for me on this podcast to talk about those things. So no, I love it. And I love the fact that obviously part of this podcast is self-care routines. You’ve kind of made that self-care if you will, and caring for other people. And you’ve expanded that in you’ve created a movement, an agency out of it. I think that’s awesome. I love it.

ASHLEY BAXTER: It definitely didn’t always come naturally to me, though. So, self-care. It’s something that I had to learn the hard way like everyone has, we’ve all had a bad job. We’ve probably all had a job where we worked too much. But there was one period in my life where I wasn’t really sleeping. I got to a point where I realized I was drinking heavily. And that was probably my form of coping with the stress that I was feeling. And I was really inflamed, like when your entire body is just sort of puffy from inflammation. Like I’d reached that point. And I was there for a good minute, and then did a health assessment test. And it did not come back positively. I was precancerous. And so, I thought, “Okay, it is time for me to turn some things around.” And so, I really had to make a serious effort to integrate self-care into my life and also to make a decision that any situation that I may have found myself where I was discouraged from having a self-care routine, any people in my life that discouraged me from having a self-care routine had to go. Because if we don’t take care of ourselves, we can’t accomplish as much as we would be able to when we’re healthy. So, it hasn’t always been the easiest journey to get to a point where self-care has been a priority. But it’s been something that has been mandatory and crucial to finding success.

TAMAR: I kind of wonder about a recurring theme in doing these podcasts that we don’t really want to embrace self-care for ourselves. I don’t want to say midlife because it’s probably that I’m making myself sound really old. I don’t know what it is that ages myself really badly. So no, I like it. Women, I would say in their 30s and 40s are starting to see that as an important thing. But it’s like in our 20s and early 30s we’re not that serious about it. I mean, I don’t know how old you are. So, I can say it.

ASHLEY BAXTER: I’m 35. So, I can say for myself in my 20s it was not something that I thought about. I wanted to be skinny in my 20s, in my 30s I wanted to be fit. I want to have good lungs; I want to have good circulation. Like the approach taken to taking care of my body, recognizing, “Oh, wow, my body does a lot for me. My legs walk me around the neighborhood every single day. And if I don’t take care of them, I’m doing my entire self a disservice.” I think there’s something that shifts in perspective of self as you start to get a little bit older. That just makes what you have a little bit more, if that makes sense.

TAMAR: Yeah. And I say this in the context of speaking with women. I try to follow a lot of the health oriented subreddits particularly in the running community. I’m not a runner by any stretch of the imagination. And I say this a lot. And I always say I’m not really a runner, but I follow them. So, Reddit, I run but I don’t run fast enough. And I’m not running that often because of the Coronavirus in my own experience with it. But I see people, like the 20 somethings, they’re just running because they want to have the fastest 5K. And then you have all these people who are like in their 30s and 40s. They’re joining the Couch to 5K subreddit. And it’s great. You get a lot of motivation from them because they’re showing their selfies and they’re running. And you see that most of the people running and who are doing this are in their 30s to 50s, even their 60s. It’s just so wholesome to see that. It’s like “Wow, I’m taking control of my life and I’m starting to recognize that I should have done this earlier.” And I always think I would love to give me a pat on the back, this invisible pat. Better late than never and it’s good. I would say you’re doing it even earlier than some other people, like they’re just not serious about it. I was depressed, and hit rock bottom before I realized that I wasn’t taking care of myself. And that happened about two years ago. I’m still in my 30s but at the same time, I’m almost over the hill. I guess they say that these days. And that’s scary for me. It’s scary to realize that, “Would my life have been different if I embraced self-care and fitness 10 years ago? Oh, yeah. But I think I needed this to happen the way it was just as you said before, where we need to be. And this is my trajectory, I needed to have nine years for some reason. I don’t know why I needed to have nine years of postpartum depression undiagnosed, unknown nine years of postpartum depression before I was exploited to the point that I needed to be having this recognized. Maybe I just I don’t know. I don’t know why but I have no regrets.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Completely, completely. If you don’t mind me asking what was your breaking point of realizing you needed to do something a little different and hitting the end of that?

TAMAR: It’s hard to say. I don’t know if this is something you can relate to. And I don’t know if people can relate to this. But I was in a part of my life where I didn’t realize that I was even there. I knew that I wasn’t happy. But I didn’t realize I couldn’t pinpoint it. I just was going through the motions through my life. And what happened was that I was taken advantage of by somebody who I became particularly close with, to the point that I felt like I needed that to validate my existence. And I started seeing psychiatrists twice a week and medication just to get by, and that relationship eventually fizzled, and it fizzled in a very hard way. It was maybe the worst possible breakup since it wasn’t violent or anything. But it was emotionally jarring, jolting. I don’t really know how to describe it. And I went through a lot of difficulty for a while. And just thinking, how can I go back to the point of, I don’t know how to describe it. As I said, it’s hard. I was already so emotionally vulnerable that I let somebody latched on. And once that latch fell apart, that latch broke, it was extremely, inordinately difficult to overcome. And then I discovered like, I was going to pull myself out of it. And then I discovered perfume. And that perfume discovery and the awakening of what you would consider a scent that you take for granted kind of brought me into this. Oh, wow. I should breathe, I should smell the roses again. And that was the impetus to start my brands right now. Something particular, that scent had actually helped me live again. Yeah, a little bit of unlikely story. But that was my story.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Thank you for sharing that. I love the idea of what you’re doing with your fragrance. So much needs to change in commerce. If you follow certain fashion years, there was an interesting interview between Naomi Campbell and Anna Wintour. Wintour was talking about the fashion beauty space, and how it’s really going to have to change now because of Coronavirus. Our values have changed as a society. So, the things that used to matter and the way they used to sell is just not going to work anymore. And everything that you’ve shared with me, that’s more about your fragrance line   sounds like you’re on that cusp of the way things need to shift and the shift that will happen naturally. Because we’re just not the same consumers that we used to be.

TAMAR:  Yeah, yeah. That’s interesting because I keep debating to myself. Do I ever launch? Yeah, it’s the perfect time to launch because this is when people don’t feel like they’re taking care of themselves. So, I am going to announce here right now that I’m soft launching. I haven’t made any public announcement, kind of sharing the link to people who want to know the link, but I will. I haven’t even done PR because part of my PR strategy, maybe I should talk to you about this separately, would have been sending, before the Coronavirus, care packages samples to the media. And when I got the virus, I obviously had to kind of put that on hold. I’ve been helping my community and I’ve been trying to get through myself, and I wouldn’t want to come into personal contact with something that might be shipped with the virus. So, when I got my package, I didn’t even touch it until I knew I could. And now that I can work, everybody’s mindset is so different. So, my PR strategy was tabled in the sense that I still want to send out to the media. And I think the media is really going to help me make or break it. But at the same time, there are people who need this right here right now. So, I want to launch an early bird, where this product would have otherwise been sent to the media. If you purchase a bottle, you will get a sample of the fragrance. And I will fulfill it sooner rather than later. So, I’m basically saying the media can get some but I’m not going to be giving as much in the media because I want to give it to people who need it right now. And because this is what it is, it’s a need-based product. Basically, it’s totally shifted from where I was going. I’m doing things completely different, kind of going by ear right now. I’m launching at a very, very busy time in the heat, like we’re still in the epicenter still. To some degree, things are changing. But we’re in the epicenter. And I guess I’m sufficiently distracted so that I’m not terribly paralyzing myself with the fear of “Oh, my God, is this going to fail or not?” So, I don’t know if this is the right way to do things. But at the same time, I want to help people today and say, PR will definitely help me as well. But I want to help the people who need it the most.

ASHLEY BAXTER: I think that’s great. I think it’s a good approach. I have a lot of conversations with clients over the past couple of months around. Is this a good time to launch something new? Is this a good time to launch an offer or product? And I think the answer is yes. It’s done the right way. And like we still have needs. I know for myself personally. I’ve had an Amazon package delivered to my house at least once a week when lock out started, little things that I needed or little pickups. And yeah, I think it’s a fantastic time to launch. I actually have a client that actually launched during Coronavirus. We took her site live. She has a clothing capsule collection of pieces that you can basically pack and just carry-on travel for two weeks without having to repeat your outfits. She was afraid to launch. She didn’t know if it’s a good time, whether it would be well received or not. But we launched it. She still got it: press, televisions, media heads. So, I do think it’s a good time to launch if that’s really rooted and grounded in purpose, actually enrich other people’s lives. Okay, that’s the key to being successful right now. Really have a purpose. It’s a fantastic time to launch.

TAMAR: Right. And I guess I we’ll see how fragrance works. Because the biggest challenge that I hear people align with my mission, “Will you buy the products, at the end of the day, you’re not smelling it?” So, if people are aligned with the mission, and they’re afraid to buy the products, because this is a crowdfunding campaign, there’s a monetary contribution, if you love the idea, you love the effort that I’ve been putting into this, and I mean this is 18 months now, then, give a contribution to the cause. But of course, I want you to get the products. It’s just a matter of “Hey, how do I buy fragrance without smelling it?” And that’s the hardest part. So right now, the Coronavirus, people think, is putting a damper on buying products in general but e-commerce is doing really well right now. I have a friend slash colleague who is telling me that her client is so busy that there’s a supply chain issue. The demand is so high that they’re not able to fulfill the supply for it and I think that’s an incredible problem to have. I almost haven’t even launched, sort of have that issue in the sense that my factory for my bottles has been converted into a PPE N95 factory. So, I have to pivot a little bit but I can’t make an excuse not to launch anymore. I need to make this happen. I’ve been putting things away for a while. And I think in general all of us have fear. But as soon as we step and overcome that fear, new fears will arise. But at the same time, we’ll be able to at least say, “Hey, we were able to do it because you’ll always regret not doing something. You won’t regret doing something.”  So, yeah.

ASHLEY BAXTER: I always say new level new devil. So, there’s always going to be a good reason or a good excuse to hold off on things or not move forward. So, you just have to take the next step, knowing that regardless of the outcome and taking that next step, you’ll learn something that’s going to push you further down the path of your ultimate destination.

TAMAR: Right, that’s awesome. I love that. I will share just a little bit of a side tangent here. Since I started doing this since we started having the Coronavirus, the first thing I did literally in week one was contact a bunch of restaurants to see if they can deliver to us. And we would coordinate with the community members a big order so that it would be worth it. At that point they were still operating, people were stepping in and out. But we were quarantined. So, the rest of the world was still moving, and we were shut down. So obviously the dynamic of that didn’t lend itself to many people doing the pickups or it didn’t make sense. But at the same time, they felt bad for us because we were literally shut down before the rest of the city. And then everybody shut down and all of a sudden, because I already had the system running, all the restaurants started reaching out to me. And I was so excited that I started forging great relationships with restaurant tours all over in the area. And it was great. But that never comes without no good deed goes unpunished. It never comes without its share of critics. In one context, a lot of the restaurants don’t want to collect all the money from 30 different people if there’s 30 different families ordering. So, I would collect. And there were accusations already that I’ve been pocketing the tips.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Oh my gosh.

TAMAR: I mean, I can’t do anything without that stuff going on. And then somebody was like, “You’re doing this at no profits yourself. Maybe you should ask for profit, maybe you should ask for a little bit of money. And then he helps me because I felt very uncomfortable asking, cut phrase how I would make such a request. I got in and that was out of his good faith. He said, “You banked a lot of goodwill, maybe people will be willing to do it.” And as soon as I made that request, I got a bunch of messages, “You should be doing this for free with a full heart.” And I’m just like, “I can’t, one guy wants to pay me well” and then I’m like, “You know what? I’m about to launch a business. I’m a CEO, new business. This is my new devil. I’m getting my first new level.” I don’t know how to say it. But yeah, like I’m dealing with the devils right now. And if this is representative of what I’m going to deal with later, it’s good practice. And I don’t have any rights for anything that I’m dealing with. But yeah, everything you do, there is always like in a room with 30 people, you’ll have 45 different opinions. That’s just the nature of the beast.  And I’m starting to learn that and let me do this on a personal level with people that I know face to face. Then we’ll see what happens with the unknowns but this is emotionally taxing. Very difficult, not profitable at all for me, except I feel good that I’m doing it, and it’s experience. That’s how I look at it.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Completely. And it’s something that you’re doing that’s being driven by purpose and passion. And you can never go wrong when that’s your driving motivator.

TAMAR: Yeah. All right. We’ll just jump into your self-care because you talk about your life in a way that clearly embodies this focus on yourself and focus on empowerment. So, tell me a little bit about what you do right now because you’re taking your life seriously. All of us are casual about our bodies, and all of a sudden, we realize sometime that we just need to start getting serious about ourselves. So, tell me a little bit about what you do right now. Not necessarily right now, because right now might be completely different since we’re in Corona chaos. But what would have been your normal self-care routine and what is changing now that we’re in the midst of the Coronavirus?

ASHLEY BAXTER: Yeah. Self-care for me comes in a lot of different formats. It is a way that I take care of myself and the way that I take care of my body. A lot of it is also how I treat myself and I feel like that’s an area that’s neglected a lot, especially for women. Before Corona, I definitely wasn’t prioritizing and moving my body and fitness. So, I found a gym buddy, a partner to work out with and we would get up and we’d be at a gym at 6am. Pretty much every morning during the week to get in a good workout, we would do some weightlifting and some cardio. And just starting my day with movement was a really good way to just kick things off because I knew by 8am, I would feel like I accomplished something. And that was a big change for me. And so, working out every day and also getting it early in the morning was one way that I took care of myself. Also, with the foods we eat and trying not to eat as much sugar, which is really hard because we live right down the street from a Dunkin’ Donuts. No easiest task, but just trying to eat healthy, drink a lot of water, that’s a good thing. But I’ll also say I’m single. And as a single woman, I try to date myself on occasion, just because like even in the dating world now, sometimes you’re still not properly courted. Or at least that’s how I feel. So, taking time to just date myself to really nice dinners and buy myself flowers. Sometimes just take a really long bubble bath and just soak and relax and do some of those little things for me and now I try to make it a habit to do that for myself. So, I’m not waiting for someone to take me out to a fancy dinner that I can enjoy. It’s like, “I can do that for myself.” And in times of Corona that’s gone from going out to eat to actually taking the time to cook myself a really nice dinner at home and go to the farmers market the beginning of the day and get groceries. And then come home and enjoy the process of looking at recipes and the process of looking at food, actually cooking the food and making the meal. Like that’s been a really big part of my self-care since all of this has started.

TAMAR: I love it. For me, I like to live or I have previously lived the life of one meal a day. I find it a very sustainable way to first of all be cognizant of my body and my food intake. And number two it means the outcome looks good. I look good and feel good. And all of a sudden, I have more energy to be more fit, and to work out and I had that great motivation to do all that stuff. And then this whole thing happened. And like I said, I’ve been coordinating restaurant deliveries on my driveway; also happens to work as a really excellent drive thru. It’s a contactless driveway. So, it’s basically a car drives up to a vehicle parked in my driveway. The restaurant drops it in their car, and then they drive through my back exit. It’s the best.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Oh, wow.

TAMAR: It’s really cool. Like I have a whole map. Really, it’s a nice setup. But anyway, having restaurants, it’s like you say you have Dunkin’ Donuts down the block. I have restaurants in my driveway every single day. And there are days when I won’t order because I won’t order and then there are days that “Oh, let’s give you 25% off, let’s give you 50% off.” And it was like “Oh, okay.” I’ve gained the COVID-19 in two senses of the word. In the sense that a virus that I had got me the 90 pounds. So, I am working on it. But yeah, normally on a regular day I would be a lot more diligent. I will say I feel immense gratitude knowing that I’m helping people in the community. It’s so empowering for me. And there’s elderly, there’s young people, people who have just had babies who are ordering and there’s so much happiness that I’m helping people. But I will say that my routine for my own self-care has fallen by the wayside. And I acknowledge that almost every single podcast since this started. I’m getting there. But it’s incredibly difficult because on one hand, there’s so much good that’s coming out of this and I’m putting myself behind. On the other hand, when life is really happening, when the world is spinning again, I am doing exactly what I should be doing. So, what if I take a little bit of a detour in order to help people at the expense of my own self-care and my health. I don’t think I can have regrets but I guess we can always revisit this conversation a couple more months to see where I am, I f I haven’t gained the COVID 19, we can discuss that then.

ASHLEY BAXTER: I don’t know, I feel like you have to do at least one thing for yourself every day. It could be the smallest thing ever. It could be five minutes to sit with a cup of coffee, it could be five minutes to walk outside, touch the grass, smell some fresh air, look at a flower, talk to a butterfly. I think there has to be at least one thing that you do for yourself every day, even if it’s just five minutes.

TAMAR: Yeah, thankfully, I will say that I have a goal. I had a goal since the beginning of the year. My friend Cari McGee is a real estate agent. But she’s also motivating like a motivator. And she created this Facebook group 250, at least 250 in 2020 or something like that. And her objective was we need to work, we need to exercise 250 days in 2020. And what constitutes an exercise is just doing something for 20 minutes. So, I have been so motivated to never miss a day that I did it. And that means that at 11:40 at night, in one night, because there’s only 20 minutes left of the day, I took a walk around my driveway. So, I am still doing it. I’m still showing up. I’m happy that I’m showing up. I’m not showing up to the extent that I used to. But the thing is that habit forms habits. If you’ve read the James Clear Atomic Habits book, habits can form very small very incrementally. And if you stop cold turkey, that habit is going to be very hard to reignite. It’s not the same, it definitely isn’t the same. But showing up to me knows that I’m honoring the contract, the commitment that I made to myself even if it’s not the level of the commitment that I had before. Because if I were to drop this, I would be screwed. And there we just started a WhatsApp group, my local community. And where some of the fitness, some of the gym teachers here saying, “You got to do 50 squats and 20-40 jumping jacks and 35 crunches.” And I’m just like, “I actually did, it’s called the killer workout.” I used to work out four times, seven times a day a week but four times in the gym. And going back to that I decided to do the killer workout, which is part of what I described. And it was brutal. My legs like were jelly, and I’m still kind of jelly. But I can’t go back to starting again. You work so hard. Don’t undo it. So yeah, I am showing up. It’s just not the same way I used to.

ASHLEY BAXTER: It’s still counts, though. That’s all that matters. As long as you show up. It still counts.

TAMAR: Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, let me ask one last question. If you can talk to Ashley, I guess the cow writing it. Why don’t you read, cows? The cow loving Texas girl. If you were to tell her, give her some piece of advice. What would you tell her?

ASHLEY BAXTER: I would tell her to stop overthinking everything. That would be the number one piece of advice I would give my younger self. I have had so many ideas throughout the years and so many things that I wanted to do and things where you think “Oh, that sounds neater. I should do this area would be really amazing.” I can help X number of people if I would just and I spent so much time when I was younger, overthinking every single little detail and trying to make things perfect. And I’m at a stage of my life now where I’ve started to embrace that progress is much more important than perfection. Like you just have to take that next step and move forward. But I did not understand that when I was younger. And so, I don’t have any regrets. Like I said, I think we all end up exactly where we’re supposed to see you. But I do sometimes wonder what life would look like if I would have just taken some of those steps a little bit sooner and not been so consumed with this fear of being judged or the fear of what other people would think and lots of self-doubt. So, I would definitely just move forward in the moment that I thought about things. I would stop thinking so much.

TAMAR: Yeah. I apologize for the language given that this is a G rated or it’s supposed to be a G rated. Well, I won’t say it. But one of the things that I think would be really helpful for you and I think for most of us who are overthinking things, and we care too much about potential ramifications, is the subreddit. A very good subreddit, you basically have to let it absorb in your pores or whatever you would call it, is called How to not Give a Bleep with an F word. So, there’s my D rated version, my belief how not to give a bleep. And there is really interesting, Ricky Ger. I don’t know how to pronounce his last name.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Ricky Gervais.

TAMAR: Yeah Gervais. Today, he actually has spoken at one of these awards shows. And it was literally cringe worthy because he was making such horrible jokes to this roomful of Oscar, Emmy, whatever, winning actors. It was cringe worthy because he did not care. And that is the life we need to live, the kind of like, we need to emulate. That must have been the worst, the hardest thing for most of us to even watch. Can you imagine just sitting there being a host and just literally throwing punch after punch? I mean, it was in all good, whatever.

It was all in good fun. And yet, it was so cringe worthy. That’s just one thing that I had watched there. But if you follow that particular life, I mean, you’ll be so much happier for it. Don’t let these things get to you. Don’t let it get you down. I like that. I think that’s a great way to embody your life and embrace moving forward.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Completely. And at the end of the day, it’s all about authenticity. And this especially tend to tie everything back to marketing because that’s just what I do. But in marketing, I feel like we went through a period where everything was polished and super perfect and pristine. And I think now we just live in a world where people want the truth. They just want to see things as they are, whether that’s products or people. Sloppy fluff and sugarcoating aren’t really easy to identify. So not thinking so much also just bring you back to a place of authenticity where you can just be yourself and put it out and not have to care and know that things are going to end up exactly how they’re supposed to end up on the other end of it.

TAMAR:  Yeah, yeah. I love it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed talking to you. This is probably my longest podcast. But I think it was worth it. I hope people benefit from your story and your trajectory and what you’re doing because I think the fact is you are really a true embodiment of what this is about especially in self-care. You’re making it work and I love it.

ASHLEY BAXTER: Thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing and I am so excited for your fragrance line, and I hope that you’ll share some information on where we can find that.

Shivani Ganguly lost her husband and her business at around the same time, which devastated her. But now she is finding peace and happiness with her son who is truly the center of her universe and killing it as a Chief Financial Officer.

TAMAR: Hi, everybody. We’re nearing May now, which is crazy. For me it’s insane how the last couple weeks have been. I can’t even describe what they’ve been like. But we are still in good spirits. I’m keeping the podcast going. Today I have Shivani Ganguly who is coming from the other coast. She is here to share her story. And yeah, thank you so much for joining.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Hi, I’m Shivani. I live in Pacifica, California which is about 10 minutes out or 10 miles outside of San Francisco. I work as a part time or contract CFO for a few different startups and nonprofits.

TAMAR: Cool. So, I know you probably have a trajectory that brought you to this interim CFO situation. Explain your little story about what you do, how you’ve started. Tell me a little bit about you?

SHIVANI GANGULY: Sure. So, I also didn’t mention that I have a young child who’s 3 years old. And he is of course in the background right now, watching YouTube, but perhaps chatting a little bit in the background.

TAMAR (laughing): No apologies.

SHIVAN GANGULY: Yeah, no apologies. It’s just the way it is right now. So, let’s see. I started working in technology and worked in San Francisco for several years, about 10 years. And of course, I was dating a lot during that time off and on. In 2010, no 2011 I met my husband Dave in San Francisco. We met on OkCupid. And we dated for about 3 years. And then we did a lot of traveling, and stuff like that. We got engaged in Vietnam. And then we got married in 2014, in January of 2014 at the City Hall in San Francisco. We bought a house in Pacifica in July of 2014. In August of 2014 Dave was diagnosed with grade 3 anaplastic astrocytoma, which is a form of brain cancer. It was terminal. So, he was in treatment and radiation, etcetera for a couple of months. Then chemo and we did some more traveling. And he passed away in March of 2016. During that same time, I also had another business. I was working before that as a part time CFO and German CFO. I’ve gone to graduate school after leaving a tech job, and then been working, having my own consulting business. But my dream for many years had been to start a grocery store market. I did that, and partnered with somebody, a friend of mine, and was working in the store most of the time with a staff. We launched in December of 2014, about 4 or 5 months after Dave was diagnosed, and ran the store for about a year-and-a half. Unfortunately, we closed down in January of 2016. So, a couple of months before he died. So, the 2 things kind of coincided. Obviously, his illness was a bigger thing in a lot of ways. But at the same time, I was going through the process of launching a business. It was my dream business, kind of working through it, trying to figure out how to make it work and then unable to make it work and unfortunately had to shut it down. So, definitely a really difficult time on both fronts.

TAMAR:  Right.

SHIVANI GANGULY:   After he died the business was pretty much gone though there were still some wind down activities. I did some more traveling, kind of a theme for me. I went to Europe for a month by myself. And then I came home and was figuring out getting, I still actually had, some consulting clients. So, I was doing some consulting work at the time, but pretty minimal and kind of figuring out my next steps. And again, starting to date and met somebody very quickly and we got pregnant. I had my son Sydney in March of 2017. Sydney was born very early. He was born at 29 weeks. He was1 pound, 3 ounces when he was born. He spent almost 4 months at CPMC in San Francisco. For the first 6 weeks of that, we stayed at the hospital. And then they sent us home. We still went back every day, even though it was about 45 minutes from the house, held him and stuff. And I was also working part time and I was a co-founder and startup at the time with this new father and a few other people. And we had gotten a National Science Foundation grant to kind of get ourselves going, and we’re trying to raise money. And it was a really difficult time. From there when Sidney came home from the hospital, I decided to actually take some maternity leave. I’d been saving up my unpaid maternity leave that I was giving myself for my own business. When he got home I did take about 3 months off and then started to transition back into work. And at that point in November around Thanksgiving, his Dad had a breakdown and ended up in the mental hospital. And we broke up for a while. And then we got back together. And I started to work as the CFO-in house for the first time in about 10 years at a retail beauty company, and then worked there for about a year- and-a-half. During that time, Sydney’s father and I again broke up for good. And I now have 100% full custody of Sydney on my own. I left the full-time retail company job because I couldn’t handle going. There was no flexibility. There was just not a lot of ways to work as a single working parent there. And I kind of returned to consulting and have been doing that for about a year now. And I’m really enjoying the flexibility and working with a few different clients especially now with Coronavirus and all of the restrictions in place, enjoying being on my own and having the flexibility to do what I need to do.

TAMAR: I like it. Obviously, of course, it’s all about flexibility. If there is anybody listening, who is concerned about the background noise, I enjoy that so much. It really humanizes the fact that we’re at home and this is our offices. I have to yell at my kid too. But you have one kid and one adult. Thankfully I’m getting to do anything. There have been times in my past where I have been embarrassed to have my children present with me. Because that’s our culture, society and our culture does not lend itself to supporting that. And I think at this point, we need to understand that this is our lifestyle now.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Yeah. I think a lot of people are understanding that more. A few days ago, I guess last week, I had to give a presentation at a meeting at one of the companies that I work with. Not a huge company. About 20 people are on the call. But I had been on calls for a couple of hours already at that point. And Sydney had been totally fine watching TV, playing by himself. And then the minute I have to give a presentation he’s like all over me, “Mommy, I need food; Mommy, I have a dirty diaper; everything.” So, I calmly said, “Okay, guys, I need a couple minutes. I’ll be back. Somebody else do something, instead of me giving this presentation right now”. And I laughed and I changed his diaper.  I got him some yoghurt and he sat on my lap for the whole presentation of about 30 minutes. It was distracting for me, but I think it’s so much okay. Most of the people on the call have kids and kind of understand. Afterwards, a couple of people sent me messages on Slack saying that I was very calm given the situation and that the presentation was really helpful. I think everyone kind of gets its just not my choice. I would not make the choice to work this way, because it’s super distracting for me. But I don’t think it’s really that impactful on other people.

TAMAR: I think everybody has to embrace this. They have to understand this. I remember, this is reminiscent of 11 years ago, almost a little over 10 years. Ten years ago, when my son was 3 months old. So, this would have been June, July, August 2009. I gave birth to my son when my first book came out. I actually published the book, naturally. And under the circumstances, people want to hear your presentation. So, I had a massive webinar in 2009 when I was living in a tight apartment, and a thousand people were in the audience. I was also alone. It was just me and my son. I decided to throw him in, like I put him in a car seat. I put him in one of these bouncy chairs, and I had them watching Baby Einstein. But it didn’t work so well. I can’t even say like 15 minutes in, he started to scream. And normally, I would be totally okay with it. It’s a tolerable degree, eventually. You have to go help your kid in an apartment building with a lot of people. So, I felt very beholden to my neighbors to address that concern. But I think at this point, everybody these days would be understanding. You have your world confined to close quarters. We had to make it work.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Yeah. Totally.

TAMAR: Yeah. I would say, “that’s the rising above the ashes story.” But I love to hear your grocery store story because that’s a very massive risk. And even though you’ve decided and you decided early enough, there’s a give and take.  Adam Grant writes this amazing book about giving and taking. He talks about people   who are sticking through something for a very long time beyond what they can tolerate, might be able to financially tolerate, their investors or whatever else. Those people are more takers than givers. But it seems you did the right thing by following the entrepreneurial spirit, you follow the risk, and you knew when it was safe to exit. I want to hear what went through your mind in the beginning and towards the end, if that’s okay to ask.

SHIVANI GANGULY: So, the beginning was like a little bit hard to identify for me, because it was a long beginning. Like I’d applied to graduate school in 2009. And the essays that I wrote were about starting a community market. I didn’t launch the store until December of 2014. So, there’s a lot that happened in that period of business planning and research and thinking about it and finding some money to invest in it and all of that. So, definitely, I thought about the risk. I had not worked in grocery stores. I didn’t know this exactly. I knew it was low margin, I knew it was high risk. Somehow, I just thought it would be easier to manage than it was. Also, I think this is actually a big thing. I thought, “Hey, I’m not going to actually be the person in the store managing it, I’m going to hire somebody to do that. And I’m going to be like a partner, oversee everything, and be kind of more than a business person, which is more my background than actually physically running the store.” And we did hire somebody, and she quit after a week. And then we were never able to really find the right person to do that in the store. Like a GM kind of a role that we really wanted somebody to be doing. So, I ended up straddling that while taking care of my husband, doing some consulting on the side, while also trying to deal with the financials get investors and stuff like that. And it was just too much for any one person. I often wondered like, “Would things have gone differently? Would they have gotten better if I wasn’t in this terrible personal situation?” I just say “no, it’s impossible” in answer to that question, but I do wonder that. I think there was some mismatched, sort of expectations or plans that didn’t come to fruition around how it would actually be managed. And also, I was just thinking I love food, I love grocery shopping. I love that experience. And I want to bring a good experience to other people. Part of it was just a passion for food and wine. Just to clarify, it wasn’t really a full-fledged grocery store that I was running. It was a relatively small, more like corner market, like an upscale specialty food, wine store, right in San Francisco.

TAMAR: Yeah, when you see one, you know that it’s more elevated.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Yeah.

TAMAR: That’s cool.

SHIVANI GANGULY: And then at the end, we probably should have ended even sooner than we did. And we really wanted to see it out for a year and see if we can make it work. And since then, I’ve actually learned that most grocery stores do not breakeven in that time, and we actually had like pretty good sales, but we couldn’t get the labor component to match up to the sales, and especially in San Francisco, where there’s a lot of what I think are very good rules around how much you have to pay people and providing health insurance. I’m totally supportive to all that, and I want to do things that we wanted to be that employers. And it was very expensive to be really good employers, unfortunately. I think that perhaps if I had known all these things then that I know now, I’ve been the CFO of retail companies in a different industry. And I know I have a better sense of what the metrics should be and what the cash runway should be. Maybe we could have brought in more investors and continued to try to make it work. But I just didn’t have the energy to do that at that point. And there was no one else who could do it.

TAMAR: Yeah, you were doing a lot. I can’t fault you for what you were doing. And I have to say, it’s like giving the whole give and take thing. You clearly were fixed to the giving element of what you’re doing, because and maybe it’s wrong, you probably could have never known what would have happened if you continue. But you didn’t want to necessarily put the burden on yourself, which is your giving back to yourself and also potentially to the investors and the people who you might have been financially beholden to when it could have been a disaster. I can’t say it would have been but it could have been. It was smart for yourself, for your sanity to exit when you did. And you at least got the experience of doing what you were doing.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Yes, for sure.

TAMAR: So, going back especially in your situation right now, I think you did right for yourself. And I think you’re happier you have your son. He’s gorgeous. I was able to see him. I was able to take a quick look. I mean, you’re doing what you need to do. I’m sure it can’t be easy right now. Especially because you’re just clicking on stuff on doors, like these four walls that we have around us. But how are you staying sane? What’s your self-care look like on a regular basis? And what does it look like now?

SHIVANI GANGULY: It looks reg  in non-quarantine time, before that. Now it looks quite different. I spent a lot more time alone. I have a lot of childcare in place. We went to daycare. And I also had a part-time nanny who helped and I would like go to clients’ offices a couple of days a week at least. And I would also go to Yoga class pretty much every day, like 5 or 6 days a week, go for more walks with the dog on my own and stuff like that. I took a writing class. So, lots of more personal focused activities, obviously more time with friends, but that’s kind of everybody.

TAMAR: So, now our view has shifted a little bit. I didn’t have time for friends. But now the community is my focus. It’s interesting.

SHIVANI GANGULY: That is interesting.

TAMAR: Yeah.

SHIVANI GANGULY: So now I would say, I’m obviously not spending much time alone at all and have no childcare at all. So that’s a little challenging. But basically, I would say that over the course of a day, I try to get 5 or 6 hours of work done. And that’s pretty much enough right now. Occasionally, I have to do an hour or 2 of work at night after he goes to sleep. But he doesn’t go to sleep until like 9:30, 10 o’clock. So, it’s pretty late.

TAMAR: You have to shift your mind.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Yeah, exactly. It’s like chunks of work and sitting down and doing work for 6 hours straight, that just doesn’t really happen. But I do a couple of hours, and then we go do something else. And then I do a couple of hours. We are very lucky to live where we live right now. I think and I feel really happy that we live outside of the city. We have a very large, very nice backyard. We’re able to walk and be at the beach or be in a Eucalyptus forest, without having to drive anywhere. We spend a lot of time walking; we spent a lot of time in the backyard. I’ve been gardening a lot. I would say that that’s probably one of my biggest self-care and also exercise right now, which is great. Getting in vegetables and spending a lot of time gardening, and also spending a lot of time cooking. And these are both good activities for me and good activities to do with the knee.  Sydney, when I’m gardening, literally can pour water back and forth between three containers for two hours. So that’s a bonus. He likes digging in the dirt. He likes to pour things and sand at the counter while I’m cooking and stuff like that. So, combining the activities that make me feel relaxed and happy with things I can do with him seems to be working pretty well. We also like to draw and paint together and all of that. So that is how I’m surviving, is finding the pleasures.  The activities that I can do with him also make me happy; and then letting him watch more TV the rest of the time.

TAMAR: As much as I wish shifting our lives, I have to say I feel for you; you can do your Yoga class, the one thing I want to do.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Yeah. Probably one of the hardest things for me is not much Yoga. So, we try to do a little bit of stretching. And I tried to involve him and he’s interested for a couple of minutes. And then he runs away usually. And I do a few minutes more on my own. But you know, I’m not really getting to do it the same way and meditate. That doesn’t happen. And it’s just I can’t do more than maybe 20 minutes at a time, something like that.

TAMAR: We had in the beginning, not anymore. One of the teachers here usually teaches at one of the fitness clubs Yoga, and I do with everybody else out there. Why can’t my children join me was this really is for the adults. I don’t know how to do any of that stuff. I can downward do all this other stuff. I’m just like, Okay, why did I even think twice? Through my calculation? Because it was so embarrassing. But it sounds funny. I was sick. Now I see that I’m not sick. I’m not like I was sick. My understanding is that there’s probably some level of immunity back to the gym. It sounds as though the 5 of us who probably had it could go back to the gym. But at the same time, I’ve also quarantined 2 weeks prior to the rest of the city.

So, it was because we had the first outbreak here. So, I understand what we need to do. And I completely understand the whole responsibility, but at the same time, we’re still crazy. We got to make things work. And right now, I have to applaud the fact that you have a lot more self-care going on than I do.  I have been maintaining 3 things: running, which sometimes I do, but mostly around my driveway and reading, which I always do. And I also focus on learning a language. I’m trying to learn Spanish. I was so proud of myself because yesterday I went to the city for a blood draw. And it was right next to a church and in the side of the church there was announced Bible school and when classes were and I actually stood the entire side and I was so proud of it. Because I don’t speak but I could read.

TAMAR: Let me ask you one question. If you could talk to yourself and give your early version of yourself one piece of advice, what would you tell her?

SHIVANI GANGULY: I guess I would tell myself to really not worry too much about the small things and the things that kept me awake at night, or the things that somebody said that bothered me or whatever it might be. Those were just not the important things. And so just really focus on the people that I love and the people that love me, and to always remember to find the joy in every day, and to really look for that in life. And I think that’s what I learned from everything that’s happened. And that’s still what’s keeping me going now.

TAMAR:  Okay, so I do have to ask this follow up question. So, we’re doing this video, we’re doing a recording. And obviously, I’m looking at your eyes. Some emotion there. So, tell me a little bit about that as well.

SHIVANI GANGULY: There’s been a lot of sadness and a lot of grief for me over the past like, 5, 6 years. And it comes up when we talk about it. It’s not necessarily a terrible thing. I’ve worked through a lot of grief. And there will always be some continuation of grief and some triggering of it. I think it’s just a part of life. In some ways, I think that dealing with this current situation, is better now than I would have 10 years ago, or 7 years ago. Because I have been through some difficult situations and have had to kind of figure out what it means to be resilient and how to keep going in difficult situations.

And that a difficult situation isn’t the end of the world, and that there is something to keep going afterwards.

TAMAR: You have a beautiful son. And I mean, I want to give you a hug right now.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Thank you.

TAMAR: Wish I created like, my arms here. Yes. I think, this rising above the ashes here is like climbing. I think you’re climbing better than ever. And I admire what you’re doing right now. I mean, it can’t be easy. You’re one-person support system. And there’s no one else there. You’re doing amazing and I appreciate you. I know that a lot of people will appreciate the story. And you know, I’m just proud of you.

SHIVANI GANGULY:  And thank you so much. That’s right. Thank you. Appreciate it. It’s been a nice conversation. Thank you for having me.

TAMAR: Yeah, I hope so. I know sometimes they’re hard, but at the same time, I hope that to some degree as the guest here, it’s cathartic and it helps you overcome and realize. Hopefully we have seen the worst of we’re ever going to have. It’s not we’re climbing, we’re improving. We’re seeing an increased trajectory from here and things are only going to go up from there.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Yes, I hope so.

TAMAR: I am praying for you and I believe that you are going to do fine. You’re going to do just fine. And you’re doing great.

SHIVANI GANGULY: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Yerlin Ramirez is an inspiration, someone who hit the absolute lowest of the lows but whose glow you can hear in a podcast. She’s found brightness after complete darkness, when she found out 10 days before she was going to move to another country with the man she loved and was going to marry that she wasn’t wanted anymore, being told she wasn’t going to walk again after falling off a cliff, but then finding peace with her past and moving forward (in the best possible way). This is her story.

Her meditation discussed within the podcast is here.

TAMAR: Hi, everybody. We are still in the middle of the Coronavirus chaos. Currently I am with somebody who is experiencing it, but not in the same way that I guess some other folks in more populated areas are. I would love to introduce you to Yerlin Ramirez. She will tell you where she is and what she’s experiencing right now. Yeah, take it away. Thank you so much for joining.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: First of all, thank you so much for inviting me to this beautiful space. And thank you so much to everybody listening right now. I first would like to send everybody love and light transition in this time that it is challenging for a lot of the energy of the planet. Yes, everybody’s experiencing this energy around the planet. I’m very lucky and blessed that I’m in a magical place in Costa Rica. Costa Rica is such a paradise. We are so small, just 50,000 square kilometers country. But we have 5% of all the biodiversity of the planet. So, it’s a really, really beautiful place. I am living in the top of a mountain and it’s like the highest peak of Central America. And it’s beautiful. I wake up with the hummingbirds and the birds and then I go to the river and I talk to the rocks and the trees and take the energy of the water. And then there’s nothing around, so the sky is beautiful, full of stars and shooting stars. Sometimes I count 25, 30 shooting stars a night and it’s beautiful, beautiful paradise. And yeah, I’m very lucky and blessed to be watching what is happening and unfolding in the planet through this protected little place. And that allows me also to do more energy work to support the energy of the planet, which I do a lot. So yeah, I’m very blessed to be here. And I know that’s where I am now. That is not always like that. It wasn’t always so easy and happy and beautiful and full of joy for me. And yeah, I will always love to share a little bit of that.

TAMAR: Yeah, I was saying we’re in the midst of this craziness right now. And yet, I guess in the sense that you’re in a countryside, not so populated area, you’re not experiencing it. The way that you know where I am in New York City right outside of the city. We’re seeing it. But interestingly enough, the two first cases of Coronavirus in Costa Rica are my friends. My two friends were with me. When this happened, they probably had exposure. They traveled to Costa Rica, weren’t feeling well, got a test when they heard that we were testing, and tested positive. And they were on vacation. And they needed to stay in their hotel rooms, the entire trip. They actually were relocated, I think to an apartment, and there was a camera on their door that if they were to leave, it was like they would shoot you on site. But that was the mindset that they weren’t allowed to leave while they were there. So that again is crazy. And yet it’s pervasive. But your country’s taking a lot of the right precautions and it’s also not densely populated. So, you’re doing very well for yourself.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah, we’re like 5 and-a-half million. We have had 668 cases and just 4 deaths. And you know the 4 deaths were two men of 87 years old, one was 65. Another one was 45. All the 4 of them having men, no woman. Really sad, but it’s not as bad as in other places. So, we’re very grateful for that. And yeah, it’s taking a lot of precautions and things and just today I’m stuck in my house. My car is not allowed to be on the street today. So, today’s a waste. People are not allowed to drive. And other days you’re really encouraged to stay home and just go out if necessary, like the grocery store or drugstore, or things like that.

TAMAR: So, you said that you are now in an experience of you know, things are beautiful for you, but it wasn’t always that way. I assume it probably ties into what one of the themes of the podcast is like, rising above the ashes story. I mean, the fact that you’re embracing beauty in a time of really like troubled despair is something that I think a lot of us can draw inspiration from. So please tell me a little more about that and I will say, when I do these podcasts with people, this is just for the listener base here, when I do these podcasts, I don’t have this story in advance. So, when I come here, I’m really working on a completely blank slate. So, it’s not like this is a repeat. I’m learning this as you’re learning this and listening to this as well. So please, share your story.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Well, my story really started when I was 14 years old, and I just left my house with zero. I had 20 cents of a dollar in my pocket, and I was 14 years old. I left my house, and when I left, I had a broken nose and a broken body, like the doctors didn’t even know how to touch me because I was just really beaten up. I was beaten up by my parents. So, I left there when I was 14 years old. I left with nothing besides those 20 cents of a dollar in my pockets, and then I started to be on all of my own. I paid for my high school, I paid for my college, I paid for everything myself. But then let’s jump to that like two years ago, because two years ago is what absolutely really changed and transformed my life. I was what I think being very successful and happy. I was 10 days away from marrying a guy from South Africa. I was moving to South Africa.I was 3 months pregnant. And I was very happy. I have already moved a lot of my stuff to South Africa – suitcases. I sold most of my stuff in Costa Rica. And you know, I was happily pregnant. Happily waiting to marry my love in 10 days when I had this accident. I had an accident when I fell from a fourth floor. No one really survived falling from the fourth floor. I did. And when I had the fall, I hit a solid empty cement pool. I broke my whole spine, my leg shattered into pieces. So, I woke up the next day with the news that I will never walk again and my left leg to be amputated. And I was like, “What’s going on?” Like this is really, really challenging. I didn’t know.

TAMAR: How did you fall?

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah, on how it happened is something that I really had to do a lot of internal work to release and forgive and let go because coaching and training is my thing. So, there was this really, really wealthy woman. She lived in a $5 million house here in the mountains in Costa Rica. I didn’t really know her, I’ve just seen her like 2 or 3 times, but someone gave her my contact. She called me if I could go and do a session with her. She was going through a lot. At that time, my rate was like 1,000 an hour. So, I’m gonna make $2,000 now, go there and make some money. I went there and we had the session. She invited me to stay for sushi. And then she said her friend was coming. I was talking to my fiancée because it was 10 o’clock in Costa Rica by the time we were 6 o’clock in the morning and the next day in South Africa. So yeah, my guy always called me every day when he woke up. So, I was talking to him. Frank came and gave me a little gum, but it was like a gummy bear that I ate. They never told me the gummy bear had a drug in it.

He had marijuana and I never smoked marijuana or any kind. My body was totally bludgeoned to all of that. Besides a glass of wine, my body was like no cigarettes, no weird, no nothing. So, the reaction of my body was very, very strong. And I just received this thing, and my body was like, “Run, run, run.” I started running and I fell into a cliff.

TAMAR: Wow. That is crazy. Oh my God. I do wanna say that we’re doing a face-to-face here. We’re doing a Skype call. And you’re moving around. I see that. So, let’s talk about that. Thank God.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: So yeah, I was in the hospital. They found a doctor to reconstruct my leg in Titanium and not to have to cut my leg. So, he did that. And then they found another doctor. They say, well, we can perform a surgery, you have 80% chances to die, but if you make it you have an opportunity to be able to walk again, and I said I take it. So, I had that surgery, they rebuilt my spine in titanium tube. When I finished the surgery, I called my fiancée in South Africa to say like,”Hey, I made it alive, I’m alive.” And he replied to me, “This relationship is no longer good to me, we need to break up.” And then he left me right there in pieces when I just lost our unborn child. You know, I felt broken in pieces in the hospital bed, 10 days away from moving to South Africa with all my stuff already there, all my stuff in my house, everything at that point, because I was moving to South Africa. I had cancelled all my insurance. So,  I was left with $200,000 debt. I was left totally broken: spiritually broken, emotionally broken, heartbroken, and physically broken. I thought that was like rock bottom. I didn’t know rock bottom had a basement. So, I was at the basement, rock bottom. I have kids, and I had to care and provide for my kids. So, it was like a big, big challenge for me at that time. Yeah.

TAMAR: Wow. Wow, wow. I’ve heard stories. I’ve been doing this since the middle, at the end of last year. And this is the story to take away all stories. Wow. So, obviously I think there’s gonna be a couple of unanswered questions here.  I’ll ask them both so that they stay top of mind here. Number one is, why would he do that? And number two is, did the people who ended up drugging you, got any consequence?

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Well, I did well. First, my brother said like, “I want to kill that woman.” But I realized then that this kind of people move in certain circles and things, like I learned later these people don’t want to have their names in the news or things like that. They can really do very low things to you to protect their name, or their family or things. And I just really believed God is my lawyer and everybody will always receive what they need. And I also have a deeper understanding, spiritually, that people are just characters in our life. And we have like a contract, we have a life and something to do in this planet. And I think that this person, even though it costs a lot of damage to my life, and I ended up almost dying and losing everything, I had gifts and blessings that I have received from that accident. I am deeply honored and blessed by it, because there was just a deep, deep change and opening into my life. And that is beautiful. So, I bless this person.   I actually blest this person, I forgave this person. And I believe I have released the guilt because at the end, everybody’s just a character playing in the role of our life. For whatever reason, my soul thought that it needed that to grow and expand. So yeah, I don’t hold any kind of regrets or any kind of pain or hate to this person. I’ve just blessed this person. And as for him, why he would do that? I don’t know. He’s a pro. I didn’t know if I was going to work again. I have just lost the child we were expecting. He was younger than me. He was at the other side of the planet. He couldn’t come. He couldn’t come back to see me because he will work. I don’t know what was it. Or maybe he just didn’t love me as much.

TAMAR: That’s crazy. Why someone would do that. The only thing I could possibly think of is that he met somebody else. And that’s not to dismiss what you’ve offered. But like, “What in the world?” That’s just crazy.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, I was 10 days away from moving there. I’m like marrying this person. He met that person right away. I don’t know. I think that he got scared or something.

TAMAR: Yeah, I think that he got scared or something.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah, he brought what he needed to bring into my life, his mission and his awareness. And I’m deeply grateful to him for that. But you know, I released him. I wished him happiness. I hope that he can be happy and he can find love and happiness and joy.  I truly believe that and for me it was a challenge. I was left paralyzed. I was like a grown-up baby. I needed to have my diaper changed. I needed to have people feeding me on my mouth. I needed to have people giving me a sponge bath. Like I couldn’t do anything, and then I couldn’t work. I was afraid for who was going to provide for my kids. I was in deep pain physically. So, I didn’t even know what pain to feel. Like if I should feel the pain of my life, the man that I love just left me or if I should feel the pain that I just lost my unborn child, of the pain that my body was destroying to pieces, of the pain that I was massively in debt. You know, it was like a lot of pain together. And that’s why I think that I was in hell. And I always tell my clients that I know hell pretty well and I know the way out because I’ve been there. That’s why I help people today say that it doesn’t matter where you are, it doesn’t matter what you feel, your life is right now. It doesn’t matter what you think you’re going through. I just been there, broken hearted, broken, body, broken spirit, broken mind. I’ve been there. I understand deeply. It’s not that it was one thing. It was like all the things at the same time.

TAMAR: So yeah, it was crazy.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: And then coming out of that it was like I started really applying what I knew, like I know a lot about the mind and the brain. I do have a new specialization in brain plasticity and neuroscience. I have studied so much NLP, neuro linguistics, neuro semantics, and neuroscience. I did a lot of studies and things but this was the testing of all that and really doing it. And then I started working with energy, challenging energy, rewiring my mind and doing what I had to do. And then the doctor says, with a lot of therapy, I may be able to work again in 2 years because of the damage on my spine and my leg was so big. I always had trust in the diagnosis but don’t trust the prognosis. Because you’re the one that know your body best and you know what you’re capable of doing. So, I started working with energy and channeling energy and healing and commanding energy in my body to move certain way. And through all that, 8 weeks later I was able to be working again. Just 8 weeks later, I was working again; week 9, I was in Bali and Singapore teaching and coaching. And in the last 2 years I was in almost 40 CDs, 30 countries. And yeah, helping, teaching and serving people all over the world, because it was like a big calling, helping people transform their life and become just very powerful creators of their reality that they want to have now.

TAMAR: Right. Wow. That’s amazing. And how long ago was this?

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Two years ago.

TAMAR: Two?

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah.

TAMAR: Look at you now. And now you’re in the top of the world literally, not just I think mentally. I can get it. I definitely get that vibe. I mean that this story is truly inspirational. It’s really, really fascinating. I say it’s really an honor to meet you. It’s really an honor to meet you, but it’s also an honor to have you on the podcast.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Thank you. Yes, it has been a beautiful journey. A journey that has taken me to the limits of what we can do as creators, what we can do as humans, how we can connect, how we can regrow and heal our body. How we can really rise from anything is really like Phoenix. We can rise from anything, we can go higher, we can create a beautiful reality. We can just really, really change the reality of whatever it is that we’re doing. Like, I went from being $200,000 in debt and not having any money living. Really, I was living on the charity of people bringing me food and things when I had my accident within the next year, paying off that debt. I’m making like half a million dollars just by really serving people and helping them and traveling the world and surviving all of those things and just getting stronger and then meeting the love of my life than once ago and being really happy. And just having deep relationship with spirit, with God’s universe, whatever you want to call it but that’s the biggest stronger thing in my life. And that’s for me, when people come to me often, is about connection. Connecting to that source, connecting to that spirit, connecting to that energy and connecting to that cause. When you connect to that then I see the Magic starting to happen in people’s life, because I realized that a lot of us have lived in disconnection from that source. So that’s like a missing part of the puzzle. And once we have that, then we start really, really seeing the magic happening around us. So, it’s beautiful.

TAMAR: I love the attitude. I love the philosophy. You know, it’s really interesting, because I’ve been talking obviously, about COVID-19. Because I mean, it hit me personally. It hit a lot of my family and friends. Personally, it’s friends and their friends, all these good people. And they also say if you’re genetically predisposed to getting the virus, you’re going to have it and you’re going to get it. I think that definitely makes sense. But I’m starting to see that it’s hitting even the people you wouldn’t think would get it. So, I would say that that’s true. But there’s certainly a large percentage of people who are in the hospital.  Nonetheless, I would say that the attitude in general of a lot of people is more despair than usual. It’s like, it’s the end of the world. And if you asked me about two years ago, it’s what my philosophy would be on this, it would also be very negative, like, “The end of the world, the end of the world.” But I’ve been writing a lot of pieces in a lot of medium. I wrote a few about how this is an amazing time to be alive. I mean, think about the fact that we have a story to tell our children and grandchildren. And I think it’s crazy that we’re all going out wearing masks and wearing gloves. Like it’s almost beautiful that we’re all going out and wearing masks and wearing gloves. It’s beautiful, because we’re all doing what we can to protect the world. And in 5,10 years, will this be our reality? No, this is a thing like the Spanish Flu in the early 1900s; we’re having this, like, it’s a historical moment. It’s like something that skips a generation usually. And then it comes back. And I would say that it’s a very sad time. And I’m saddened that people are losing their lives to the virus, but it’s also an incredible time, because we’re starting to see the best and the worst in humanity. But mostly the best. And yet, I haven’t really had the conversation with any people in the podcast today, where they’re looking at it in a really beautiful lens. So, it’s nice to be with a like-minded individual. I will just say that.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Thank you. Yes, I think that, you know. My heart feels and hear for all the people that have been impacted by this. We all have been impacted in one way or another. And I also think that for people, the image and the hologram that we hold for ourselves and for the planet is a beautiful time to be alive. I think that what is being created is beautiful. This path that  this energy has put us all on has been so much necessary to stop the thing to go inside, to really be grateful for the things that we have taken for granted every day, to give the planet a break, to connect better, to be closer to our children, to be closer to Mother Nature, to be closer to whatever is really and truly important. I think that these have given us that opportunity to truly go inside and see what’s important. And also to be able to transcend them, to connect and transcend to higher realms and to a higher part of ourselves and to connect with the most beautiful intentions and energy that we can broadcast. Because all that we can do in our part besides of course cleaning our hands is the state that we’re holding, what  energetic signature that we’re sending out there that is creating and adding to the collective humanity that we are together.

TAMAR: It’s really hard to embrace that. I will say it really is. I can give you a little bit of a story here. I was in a Facebook group and somebody had made a comment about how Coronavirus has actually helped him. And somebody and I’m the moderator of the group, wrote no one should be loving COVID-19 locked comments. And I seeing it like at 2 o’clock in the morning, said, “Listen, I just wanted to say here’s a perspective that I want to offer you that’s different.” I said, “Listen, I love that Coronavirus is making us actually see each other face-to-face. I love Coronavirus is making sure we check with our fellow humans. I love that Coronavirus is actually making me accountable for the people in my community. I have no apologies and no regrets.” I got banned from the Facebook group and she blocked me on Facebook. And I understand. You know, Stephen Covey, who has written, is obviously somebody that a lot of people follow. He’s written the 7 Habits I’ve spoken about in the past. Yeah, so that one of the habits is that you need to start seeing, and he uses that optical illusion, where you see the young woman and the old woman, depending on your angle. And he really drove that point home that you could see one picture and have different approaches toward that picture. And he repeats that throughout the book, that you have to see different mindsets. I see his mindset. And I will respect his mindset. I say that should have been alright. Unfortunately, I forget that not many people are open to see the contrary view, even though the contrary views are highly respectful. Like I would be happy to share this message. No, but I don’t want to put out anybody.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: There’s this amazing book by Napoleon Hill calling out the devil because it’s from 1938. And it was just published three years ago. But there in the book, there’s a part that said that two entities are present in every living being in the planet. And one entity is the fear and another entity is fate. So, they’re both very, very powerful. And it says that, a lot of people have fear. And this fear is to me just fate in the wrong direction. Like, you have faith that something’s gonna go wrong. And that is going to be right. I just trust that we are going through what we need to be, growing as humanity. And yes, it’s very sad that a lot of people have been affected by it. And I also believe that we as humans, are super powerful, and we can rise through anything and we will be stronger, more together, more connected, more aware, happier, and full of joy every time. Next time we see people and we can hug them, that’s going to be a really, really significant meaningful hug. So yeah, that’s what I believe.

TAMAR: Yeah, I love it, I love it. I think, especially in your situation, we’re in the basement of the rock bottom. That is the really place you can’t hide. There’s no place to go up in that situation. Then, there’s no place to go down from there. There’s only hope. And I think once you experienced a moment that brings you to a rock bottom, however deep depths, however deep in the depths of the rock bottom you are in, there’s nowhere else to start to see the world but up. So, I love what you have said. I love what you’re doing. I love it. And I think that’s exactly the way we need to be, we need to live that way. We need to start seeing that right now. And I’ve been saying this, 1 of the 3 core tenets of my podcast is rising above the ashes. Right now, most of us are in ashes, because we’re in a moment of our lives where things are low. And yet we can bring ourselves and start to think that we’re going to be better. And we’re going to bring ourselves into better life after this. We’re just going to be stronger and closer, hopefully a closer-knit human race as we’ve never been before.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Full of love, full of connection, full of helping and seeing each other. Really connecting with the land, connecting with the earth, connecting with the energy of creation, respecting the nature that have been giving us. Just learning to live in harmony is we really want to make it all together. So, I think that it’s a beautiful opportunity to actually rise higher as humanity and I really look forward for that. Like, I’m holding the energy of that. And that’s what I see coming. That I see lots of people really thriving. I see people coming together. I see people living in abundance for what they truly need, not what they think they need. We don’t need so much, sorry for my language. But we don’t need so much that we think we need. We have actually gone back to the basics when you know the lady with a beautiful organic garden is more sexy than the CEO with a Ferrari. However, they all are fantasies. You know, we really need to go back to having that connection with Mother Earth and with the other humans and really see each other as just seedlings playing in this beautiful garden that we have been given, this planet.

TAMAR: Yeah, so for me, I love to see people outside now. There are so many more people outside and most of them are really responsibly social distancing, which is really nice. I think that people are starting to realize that we have this beautiful earth to enjoy and to appreciate. And thankfully we are giving the earth a reboot because we are minimizing our trave, we are doing what we can to reduce our carbon footprint as much as possible. And I think it’s really nice to see. To that end, I guess that kind of ties into your embodiment, your philosophy in terms of self- love is the attitude that you’re taking. So, let’s talk about your self- care routine. What is that you talked about? I will say really quickly, we were going to have this meeting a little earlier but you said you had a very important morning ritual. So, tell me a little bit more about that. And let’s learn a little bit more from that.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah. You know, I’ve been a kind of a nerd my whole life. I have 7 careers, 4 master’s degree. I was obsessed with learning and handling one of my careers which is holistic nutrition. And then I have a specialization in Ayurveda medicine. So, I do a lot of energy work with people and so my energy for me is my currency. I help and support people through my energy and holding them in that energy and that high energy. So, for me, energy is really my currency, is what I value the most.  I live the most of my life every day like, “Is this loving my energy or is this not loving my energy?” Like, “Does this take my energy higher, or is draining my energy?” So, the questions that I guide myself are: Is this loving my energy? Is this gonna make me feel more better?  If not, it’s a no, no for me. I’m very strong into taking care of the body and the immune system and what we eat and the chemistry and the chemicals that we put inside. So, I usually wake up having a green, green shake, or some days it can be water with apple cider vinegar and lemon and some chlorella, spirulina, some chlorophyll, some camo camo; it’s just greens, or it can be a different color. It usually goes with a very nutritious drink and supplements and things in the morning. Then I usually have green coffee enemas, that cleans the liver and cleans the body. And then I will walk to the river. And I will usually make my own bath where no one can see me, or my bathing suit if there’s people around. But I think I absorb sunlight, because I believe in the power of sunlight. And then I will jump into the river and just play in the river and absorb the energy of the river. Then I will do some grounding, then some meditation. I will do some breath work. And then I will write in the meditate journal, pray. Yeah, that’s kind of what I do in the morning and that is really important to me, the things that I do every morning.

Yeah. Energy is very important for us to fit in that energy and to know what is the energy that we gonna have for the day. And yeah, I have a really small mantra that was given to me and that I repeat, every single morning. I repeat this and it just says like, “Thank you for another day. Today I surrender my intention to divine intention, I surrender my will to Divine Will. From this place of humbleness, I ask the spirit to be protected and to guide me in what’s the next inspired action that is going to take me and humanity to be great.” And that’s this little mantra that I do every morning. And yeah, that’s what I do.

TAMAR: That’s amazing. I think those things you have to reinforce these strong words in your minds. I have a little decal in my bathroom that says “Be awesome today.” And sometimes I don’t read it, but when I do, it has a definitely subtle effect, it suddenly enters your pores and really kind of pushes you in a position where you feel like you need keep getting it done. When I run, I listened to an album called Fearless Motivation. Seriously, that same stuff makes a change in your mind, making you a better version of yourself. And I will say that while I don’t do it every single day, it really is a morale booster. It’s amazing. It’s really something I highly recommend. Anyway, if you can tell yourself, right after you came out of this, you were in your ashes when you were literally in your basement. If you can give her some piece of advice, what would you tell her?

YERLIN RAMIREZ: To me? To myself?

TAMAR: To yourself. Yes. What would you tell yourself when you were in your rock bottom?

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah, I think that what I keep to myself is my choice. Like there’s a choice into how I choose to be and what is my alternative. Like, is my alternative to be feeling sorry for myself being broken and feeling it’s the end of the world for me? Or do I want to rise from the ashes of these like the phoenix and fly really, really high? So, for me we all have a choice. And I just want to finish this with a little story that my daughter actually told me. And she came to me when I was there in bed, one day I was crying. I was crying so much. And she said, “Mommy, why are you crying?” And then looking at me, like, “Mommy, you’re gonna tell that story.” And I was in bed and then I said, “Well, I can’t see the path. Like I can’t see the bird anymore. I can’t see anything ahead of me, everything is gone. You know, the fence of the baby, the money, the body, like everything.” And she’s,  “Mommy, do you know about ants?”  And she said “Ants communicate with each other through a hormone that they have in the forest, but sometimes because they’re in the forest, the leaves come and they cover the path. So, the path that they were creating for each other, and that they were living, they cannot see the path anymore. And that time need to ask, do I go back like I failed? Or do I start taking one leaf at a time? Because Mommy, the path hasn’t gone anywhere. The path is there just covered by the leaves. So, it’s time to ask yourself what kind of ant are you?” And that was very, very strong for me. Because it is just start taking one leaf at a time. And just ask yourself, what kind of ant are you? What kind of human are you and that is going to help you make decisions of who do you want to become and what’s the new identity of the person that you want to build from those ashes? And what’s the story that you want to tell the world about yourself?

TAMAR: Wow, how old is your daughter? That is very profound.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: That is very profound. She’s amazing. She’s a very, very wise soul. And she’s 15 now, but she was 13 at that moment.

TAMAR: Yeah, learning things from our younger generations. That’s beautiful. Beautiful.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah, how I do learn a lot from my kids.

TAMAR: Thank you so much for your time. I hope that you stay safe, enjoy the beautiful view, the beauty around you and everything else. And I will tell you that I am totally absorbing this light that you’re telling. And I really hope that everybody else takes it with them, and hopefully goes through what we consider for the most part, as a collective human race, a very difficult time. But hopefully this will really elevate them to higher levels.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah, and does anybody want to receive my channel and meditation that is beautiful, in 17 minutes and 17 seconds. It’s an inspiration that I received in the top of the mountain and it’s called Rise Over Kneeling. It’s rise over instead of kneeling to the fear of this new energy. So, it’ s rise above it, and not kneeling to it anymore. It’s just a beautiful meditation. Anyone listening, can go to my website and send me a message or go to my Instagram, yerlinramirez.com or my Facebook and they can message me and I will be happy to let anyone have it because it’s very, very beautiful. And I just felt called to just give it to anyone that needs it.

TAMAR: I will definitely make sure that everybody gets it. And I’ll link to it and in the post for sure.

YERLIN RAMIREZ: Yeah, thank you very much. Really.

TAMAR: Thank you, keep safe.

Uma Kelkar is an engineer who became a tech founder, works as an artist, and is and an author whose new book just was released. In this episode, she shares her experience coming to America with only $200–growing up being satisfied that she only had a staircase with a lamp dedicated for only herself–how these simple pleasures made her happy. Now she is a female in an industry that is dominated by males. We learn her story and mission, how she became enamored by tech, and of course, discuss the impacts of COVID-19 on how things have changed.

TAMAR: Everybody today is another lovely day in the middle of April, and we’re still amid the coronavirus craziness around the world. And yet the podcast is still going. Hopefully there are listeners I know that podcast numbers have gone down since the coronavirus pandemic but I’m still new. So I’ve never really gotten my critical mass either. But yet, I’m still trudging along. And today I have an awesome guest, Uma Kelkar, she is going to share her story. She is in a in an interesting spot right now in her home. So you could talk about that too. And because obviously, the circumstances have kind of created these ad hoc work arrangements. So thank you so much for joining, tell us where you are in the world and where you are in that part of the city, wherever you are in the world.

01:15

UMA KELKAR: Good morning, Tamar, and I am super excited. And more than excited. I’m honored to be here. I am talking from the other coast of USA. So I’m in San Jose, California. And I am honored because normal people are becoming heroes like you communicating with the world when the world is isolating and talking and searching for stories. And hopefully we touch more people through it.

01:44

TAMAR: Yeah, where are you physically telling me because I know, when we were sharing our screens before, or rather, we were sharing our cameras and we were looking face to face you were in an unlikely area. Talk about that.

01:56

UMA KELKAR: So I’m in a bit of a cluttered garage right now. But I’ve been super comfortable. Because there’s electricity, I’ve won consent, my kids are taking over the bedroom. Our master bedroom has a meeting schedule. So, whoever is meeting needs a clean wall, gets the bedroom. And then the other person goes to the garage.

02:20

TAMAR: Yeah, I guess the circumstances that I have been listening, I have to edit the podcasts. And when I edit the podcast, I listen in the background, and I hear my kids screaming. This is just the nature of our current circumstances. And I have to say that, while I will apologize for the sound because I’m the host, I will apologize for the sound of children in the background. I don’t really have apologies for children in general, I don’t think people need to give apologies. My friend Amber Nason is amazing. And she actually posted this on LinkedIn. She’s like, I completely understand if you have pets in the background, if you have kids in the background, we’re all working in a topsy turvy environment right now. And everything’s a little bit upside down. And that’s completely understandable. We’re in these unprecedented times. And we need to make do with what we can do and to keep to whatever we’re doing in our businesses. And yeah, we’re completely isolated. And a lot of people are pivoting and not a lot of people are working in the same way a lot of people are losing their jobs. So I think momentum is really, really important. So to that end, talk about who you are, where you’re coming from and how you have responded to these changes. I know that if we were doing this like six weeks ago, this conversation would be completely different. So try to speak to those two points.

03:47

UMA KELKAR: Yes, definitely. I do want to add on to what you said earlier. It is the time to be presented to the world as a whole human being, professional does not mean we don’t have normal lives. And if kids are part of normal lives, yeah, I don’t apologize. And it is time worldwide, male or female, they understand that real life intersects professional life. And therefore the no apologies needed as long as sincere efforts made to be professional. Beyond that circumstances rules. So I really appreciate that. Children screaming in the background is not going to be a female phenomenon.

04:31

TAMAR:  I like that. Tell me a little bit about what you do, and what if you’ve had to make changes what you would have normally been doing if it was January 2020. And what you’re writing now that it’s April 2020.

04:45

UMA KELKAR: So I am a tech founder in the cross sectional space of education, art and engineering. And about now I would have been talking to some contractors to build my working prototype. I have a proto.io prototype, which is just bare bones and wireframe like prototype. And I have pivoted, not business wise, but I’ve pivoted in terms of priorities. So I am talking to potential customers right now. Since people are getting used to being on zoom, it is easier for me to interview my potential customers or my potential perfect customers around the world. And to their stories because the reason just like you’re interested in my story, I’m interested in other people’s stories because of the pain points. If you ask people specifically what their pain points are, not everybody’s able to verbalize it. But when you hear the story or routine, I can often catch on the adjectives and the words they use to figure out the pain point. So that’s what I’m doing right now. And not making a working prototype right away. Yeah, same time I was pushed into this, but I’m very happy. I also paint, Tamar. So I’m an engineer, I’m an electrical engineer. And we’ll come to that. And for the last three years, I have not taken vacation in the conventional sense, which means I have taken vacation only to travel around the world to teach painting.

06:27

TAMAR: So you’re working, but you’re not working.

06:30

UMA KELKAR: Exactly. And so now I am doing online, in person classes for people. On Monday nights and Thursday nights and Monday evenings, I started running a free course for digital art. And the reaction has been great. I have kept on moving the time for East Europe, sometimes for India, and Asia and Hong Kong and West Coast. And so many talented artists are so generous. And we are on week seven. We booked up until week seven and I have reached out to artists to come and teach online. And that’s been amazing. So that’s what I’m doing, in a way engaging. I’m not being inspired to paint, but this is my way to force myself to do it and to engage people and to do it with them or for them.

07:29

TAMAR: Wow. That’s really cool. Yeah. So I just want to kind of reiterate what you said. So you were building a product in the education tech space? Yes, that is separate from the teaching, but that the product itself is probably going to be delayed, because obviously we’re in uncertain times. And yet, because of your experience in art and teaching, I guess you would say that that’s your major pivot, you’ve pivoted kind of having these zoom classes, or maybe it’s not zoom, but you are doing zoom. And of course everybody is. Although this is Skype, I don’t know, maybe I should be doing these podcasts on zoom. Everybody’s there’s a lot of pushback, we’re not using Skype anymore. We have to think about that. Nonetheless, you’re doing a lot of these classes. That’s probably not something you would have been doing if this was the beginning of the year. Is that right?

08:30

UMA KELKAR: Oh, absolutely. Or I wouldn’t have been doing it next year or year after. I didn’t think I would do.

08:36

TAMAR: Yeah, I think there’s still this sense of desire for belonging and connection. And we need to do these things and feel like we’re not just sitting and languishing and building fat. Sitting on our butts and watching TV, I think it’s great that it has opportunities where there is that sense of connection that we are able to connect through a common interest of art, education, whatever it might be. So it’s amazing that you’ve been doing that, but I do see what you’re saying, I was planning on doing an April 20 launch of my products. And then March 3, my life was turned upside down. Am I going to be launching on April 20? Well, I’m doing a podcast that’s what I’ve been doing to stay true to the business right by my products. My main factory for I’ve been building for bottles has been converted into a mask making factory, when are they going to come back to normal? I don’t know. And the priority is saving lives. So I don’t know when I’m going to launch anymore. And I think we’re too uncertain or in too uncertain times to ascertain what our next steps are.

09:57

UMA KELKAR: Absolutely. And if I may, I don’t know the absolute answers, but I feel that sometimes we have cultural baggage. And the cultural baggage can become a cultural asset or a baggage, depending on how you leverage it. So I feel without being overburdened, I feel the responsibility to do more in these times. For example, I have a house, I have a roof over my head, my kids are healthy, I am healthy. I have technology and access to technology. And this is far more than other people have. So, it would be rude to complain.

10:42

TAMAR: Right. I love how you’re giving back in a way that you’re teaching a man to fish. I’ve been giving a man a fish actually. Literally, though, I don’t like to cook. There was an article in The New York Times yesterday, it was an interactive article about how costs have been going up and what costs have been going down and the cost of those ads has completely surged. But for me, I’m a workaholic. And I’m not somebody who spends time in the kitchen. And then I have children as well. So cooking for me is not my priority. So I actually and for my community, I’ve been partnering up with local food establishments. I run a WhatsApp group and when I have a new announcement, I say, hey, this establishment will be delivering on Wednesday, this establishment will be delivering on Thursday, this type of establishment will be delivering, like every single day, there’s something else. Sometimes it’s independent of me. And sometimes I’m collecting the money.

UMA KELKAR: Right.

TAMAR: So, it’s an interesting dynamic. And I will say I love it.

11:51

UMA KELKAR: You’re doing more, isn’t it? Because I read your article on Medium where it said that you were one of the few people who were not only affected, I mean, your community was affected early on, and then you personally were affected.

12:08

TAMAR: Right? And a lot of us were and it was funny that when I first started doing this, when I started getting symptoms, I was still doing this a lot. So one of the biggest symptoms is fatigue. And I will say that I was completely the opposite. So, I was the Energizer Bunny. I was not sleeping and I still not really sleeping. I think that it’s not necessarily because of the Energizer Bunny. It’s because of the anxiety of the uncertainty of our time. But yeah, fortunately, that was the one symptom I didn’t have, I had all the other symptoms; I just didn’t have him to the extreme set. Some people who are hospitalized have really high, I’d rather not languish although I am languishing and other ways that you don’t want to be for example, eating a lot of takeout, not healthy and I usually eat one meal a day and I’m not doing that anymore because it’s like wow, I just made this partnership with this establishment that I really want to have their food from so I’m going to eat it and I’m going to buy leftovers I can eat for the rest of the week. Right. And next thing I know I gained the COVID-19 and so you asked me before the podcast started about what convalescent? So I start at the beginning.  Yesterday I went and I donated a plasma. When you’re recovered because we were an early community, we were actually isolated by a number of universities. Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Rockefeller University, Columbia University, and a number of other smaller establishments have pinpointed our community as one of the COVID hotspots because we were the first outbreak but we’re also the first recovered. So they came and they actually erected a little testing site by my synagogue where the outbreak began. And even though we’re not allowed to congregate, we’re allowed to go there for testing. It was a schedule of staggered appointments. Of course, you couldn’t just show up, so I made an appointment. And I tested. I was on abc7ny.com. You could Google my arm and you’ll find the video of them testing. He was actually really bad. They took a nasal swab but this guy was relentless. He was brutal. And he was relentless. And he went all the way up my both nostrils and it was the worst test. The first not so bad. And then they took some blood to see my antibody level. And so I ended up waiting for my results. And I thought it was positive because I hadn’t gotten a call. I thought I was positive because all of my friends who were negative got a call and I had it. And the next day I just called her and she said to me that I’m sorry, I had the wrong phone number for your negative two, do you want to schedule a test? And I said, do you want to schedule a donation? So I needed a negative test in order to be eligible for donation. But my understanding is the CDC is releasing, changing that policy so that a positive person can donate because there’s so many people dying in hospitals. So what it is, it’s convalescent plasma, at least for this particular donation. I didn’t actually read the material when it came to the actual testing because this stuff freaks me out and medical things are not my cup of tea. In fact, I get very faint when I start reading about like this, and when it’s not even minor, like when it’s very minor, rather. And so I didn’t read it, but I decided, I need to do this because this is more lifesaving than anything that I’ve ever done in my life. And I think it’s so important. So, all they did was they weighed me, and that’s how I know I gained my COVID-19 pounds. Then they hooked me up to a machine. And you see them taking out blood, but there’s something called like a rinse back. So I think they strip the plasma of the blood, and then they put the blood back in your system, you’re not losing your entire antibodies. You can do it again, your body can reproduce it, but I think they’re seven days. I think now they actually says in the blood bank, next time you could do it is May 11. At least I did it yesterday, which was the 13th. And I actually think that they’re minimizing, they’re actually lowering that window because of the urgency of needing the blood. But I thought that this was the best way to spend my time in a way that can truly change lives.

17:09

UMA KELKAR: Right. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for your work. And thank you for the courage to go out and do the right thing.

17:16

TAMAR: Yeah, it was hard. It’s hard. It’s scary. And it’s not a pleasant experience. I’m not sure what’s worse though, the processing of the patient, just the paperwork and the logistics when you get there, or the actual process of sitting there and doing it. It’s a little painful. It’s not so bad, but I think it was actually the bureaucracy of having to go through the entire thing and the logistics of it. And the disorganization. I don’t want to say that. But yes, I think that was worse.

UMA KELKAR: Wow. Okay. Okay.

TAMAR: Yeah.

17:49

UMA KELKAR: Well, that’s eye opening.

17:51

TAMAR: Yeah, yeah. So, tell me, I mean, I guess you came from, like electrical engineering, you’re a tech founder. Now. Were you always looking to be in engineering and in the tech space? Or has that been an evolution that was a little bit unanticipated on your end?

18:21

UMA KELKAR: It has been unanticipated; I was very sure growing up that I wanted to be an engineer. And I thought I would always be an engineer on the shop floor, or in a big  manufacturing plant. But, I mean, this is a 15 year old 16 year old talking at that point. I knew I could paint tomorrow at that time, but I didn’t think I was not brought up that arts mattered much. At the same time, there was a practical angle to it that art would never pay the bills. And it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy when you start believing in something without giving it a good shot, right. As I was always wanted to be an engineer, I wanted to do Biomedical Imaging. That’s what I came to Stanford to study. And I sat in on electronics class, and I fell in love and I did electronics. For 18 years, I designed chips. That’s what I do. I designed chips for very high speed communication systems. And I’ve been in other tech startups before so I’ve had that experience. But what’s coming back right now is this. Going through the tragic story quickly, but when I came to Stanford to do Biomedical Imaging while I was doing my electrical engineering, Biomedical Imaging would be the depth in electrical engineering during our major, and I was doing research assistantship, and was working on brain imaging and doing things to images of brain scans, of brains of children with autism, for example. And that was my exposure to brain imaging. But when I did high speed communication we were using the same basis, mathematical basis of removing noise from signals, for example, to clear communications. Can I explain what that communication means?

20:40

TAMAR: Yes, yes. Very pleased because yeah, you have to think about not everybody is techie  in the audience here.

20:45

UMA KELKAR: So perfect. I love that. So, in a simple way I can work on electricity, and why do you need that? So think about these long telephone lines between you and I, between me and Tamar are going through over the land. But at some point, think about these cables going underwater in the deep sea. These are no longer electrical wires. But these are fiber optic wires. So you’re sending your signals, audio signals, you’re converting to electricity. And by electricity, everybody knows that computers work on ones and zeros. So far, so good.

21:19

TAMAR: Yeah.

21:20

UMA KELKAR: Okay. But the ones and zeros now need to be converted into light and no light. And then  you pass that light, a string of light, no light, light, no light through a fiber optic cable and the other end, that light, no light has to be converted to one zero, electrically, and that one zero electrically then has to be converted into audio. And that’s how I and you are listening to each other. Right? Okay. So what’s the big deal? Well, ones and zeros are light or no light, as they go through a long length of wire or cables gets diffused, or they look garbled. It’s like speaking when we are close to each other. And when we move farther and farther away, depending on wind, and noise and other stuff, you can’t hear each other well, even when you’re physically standing next to each other. So think of all these other noises and disturbances as imperfections, imperfections to your audio sound or to your ones and zeros. So we have to clean it up. That’s what engineers do. So about 100,000 engineers, like me in the world connect 6 billion people. And that’s our job, doesn’t look very glorifying, but we convert light to electricity or electricity back to light. But when you’re clearing up or taking care of timing, and you’re taking care of noise, you’re doing it in one dimension one or zero. We think about it in art, if you have a photo. Remember the noisy photos, the noisy photos are what we call grainy photos or photos from the 80s and 70s. And the technology that enables us to clean it up is the same mathematics that you use for cleaning up brain images, or it’s the same mathematics that helps you clean up messages across satellites across TV across audio channels. And forcibly putting in noise back in is jamming jammers, is jamming images, is jamming German satellites. So the basis of mathematic stays the same whether you’re taking noise out or you’re inserting noise back in.

23:26

TAMAR: Got it.

UMA KELKAR: All good?

23:28

TAMAR: Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.

23:31

UMA KELKAR: So that’s what I’m doing that I’ve realized that there is such a huge potential for art to be quantified. Every time elegance and art has been tried. Every time we have tried to quantify or measure elegance, we have failed, or we thought we couldn’t do it. But think about it now. If what we call artificial intelligence is nothing but modeling all the noise. So we have this now huge database of images. And we can use artificial intelligence to clean up images or teach people how to paint better, or to photograph better, where the definition of better is defined by artificial intelligence, because it’s artificial intelligence. It depends on a model that you, we make. So, it’s an evolving definition of elegance that we can actually have.

24:27

TAMAR: Wow. So, I will tell you that most of that’s over my head, but I will say also, it’s almost like I have to say thank you for your service. Because like, what you’re doing is like, I mean, you’re making the world work. And you’re talking about how you’re thankful and fortunate that you have electricity in your garage, I don’t have electricity in my garage. I will go back to that part and say, what you’re doing is, I mean, things that we all take for granted and we will never understand the nuances. But behind it, at the same time, it’s like, I want to have that conversation where I’m like, oh, this is so cool. Like, I can’t, I don’t like I feel bad.

UMA KELKAR: But it’s fun, it is cool, right? Because all my friends or a lot of my friends, my colleagues are all chip designers, and we make high speed chips. And what’s the big deal?

25:24

TAMAR: Yeah, but it is, it is. The thing is just think about what you’ve been doing and how possible like, it’s funny, because we were talking about like, April to January, and how things weren’t really going to be this way in January. But think about how in your context, the stuff that you’re doing wasn’t possible to do. Like, that long ago. This is evolutionary.

25:47

UMA KELKAR: Yes, it is. Oh, you sent three questions.

25:55

TAMAR: Not finally three questions. But  the premise of the podcast is people who have risen above the ashes who have taken a career trajectory, an unexpected career trajectory, you kind of touched upon, and also what they’re doing for self-care, which is both in the context of what they might be doing differently because of the timing of the podcast that we’re in the middle of an insane, an unprecedented pandemic, that has basically uprooted our lives in a way that we couldn’t have ever anticipated. And for me, I will say, I haven’t been as amazing in my self-care regimen, because half of it is going to the gym 545 days a week.

UMA KELKAR:  Right.

TAMAR: So, what’s your story, do you have that rising above the ashes story?

26:54

UMA KELKAR: So, I’ll tell you my story. I don’t know if it’s rising among ashes, about ashes story. And the reason is this, the more you grow, and the more you learn somebody’s not always have to listen to somebody’s life work. And there are people who put in decades of work after decades of abuse. And I can’t beat that. No, I don’t have that kind of story. But I’ll tell you, there are some things that have been learnings and I’m 42. And I cannot just leverage but I can accept these episodes and pivot points and actually make them my strengths. I’ll tell you that I grew up in a 600 square feet house in which we were squatting, when I was growing up. That house had a metal grill for a door. So I never had a real door. And my study room was outside my house in the stairs to our third floor house. And in that moment, I was elated to have that space be mine to have a staircase because no other family had access to a staircase with a lamp dedicated for themselves and a table. Now when I look at it now, if I were to find a student doing that, and studying happily, I would tell them, I’m very proud of them. And I love that attitude. What I’m trying to say is when you’re in in the middle of adversity, you don’t really think you’re doing hard work. But the backdrop of adversity paints every new outcome positively. So this garage really doesn’t feel hard. So that was the thing that the backdrop helps, so and then I saw this was a one room house, and I lost my father when I was 16. And I lost a lot of my family to abusive relationships over the years. So it’s not really anxious. What I did learn was self-reliance. Growing up and not wasting time.

TAMAR:  Its attitude.

29:03

UMA KELKAR: Its attitude. I came with $200 to the country.

29:06

TAMAR: Yeah. So you do have the rags to riches story and one of those things. Well, you’re in the process. And in the last podcast, I was saying to Theresa Kwon, she was my last podcast person I’m like, we’re all in the middle of our ashes right now unless you’re in an industry that is thriving in remote culture. Like Zoom also is having its own struggles because Google just banned it in the company, and I will say that one of my clients also has banned it. So, I’m in the conflicts where some people are like, I don’t know if this is good for anybody right now unless you are so ubiquitous, like maybe Facebook ads. And even Zoom to some degree. We’re able to communicate face like work. Unless you’ve a communications tool, hey, you’re really in a bad place.

UMA KELKAR: Right.

TAMAR: I mean, even like Priceline, even the cost of gas is down. So just to think about that environment, we are in our ashes. So I like to think that if we are suffering in whatever way, there is literally going to be an incredible pot of gold at the end of our rainbow.

30:36

UMA KELKAR: And I hope this is true. And I wish you that pot of gold, Tamar.

30:42

TAMAR: Yeah, me too.

30:44

UMA KELKAR: So, coming back to self-care, I think the other thing I wanted to add was the community. So, when you are in the tech industry, if I’ve been in fiber optics and high- speed communications and analog design, and so long, I have maybe seen one more other analog female engineer. So what that means is, sometimes I didn’t realize that, but I needed a community. I belonged to engineers, but I still wanted people like me.

TAMAR: Yeah.

UMA KELKAR: And art was that segue. And over the years, in 10 years, I had a pseudonym online and started building this community and becoming part of this community. And now there’s this. And this has nothing to do with founding, but it’s useful to understand the power of community. And now I’m part of this movement called Urban Sketches. These are sketchers who sketch anywhere in the world and show the world one sketch at a time. And it’s grown to more than 300 chapters around the world over the last 10 decades, over the last 10 years. And so, what have I learned by going and connecting with these people, and I’m now on the executive board that belonging is important, not just to me, but to everybody. So, any texts that can make people belong the more.

32:14

TAMAR: I will say, yeah, you probably have struggled a lot more being a female in a male dominated industry. I mean, I read about it. I majored in computer science, and I was thinking that I was going to work in that space. And then I shifted, I don’t know what caused me to shift. Maybe it was the education that I had because I wanted a major and I really wanted to learn how to code but I felt that the education that I had was more theoretical than how you do things. And yeah, maybe male minds processed that better. So I shifted away from that. And so did a lot of the women in the concentration as the years went on in college.

32:56

UMA KELKAR: And that’s evidenced by people like me, because I’m like, there were more and more women in my class, where are they now?

33:04

TAMAR: Right. That they probably don’t need their own pivots, we got to get them on the podcast.

33:12

UMA KELKAR: Right.

33:13 [Inaudible]

33:14

UMA KELKAR: I was going to talk about self-care. But go ahead.

33:16

TAMAR: I just wanted to say that having a sense of belonging must be a much bigger challenge for you. Because yeah, you’re almost alone in this. I’m an analog engineer, and this guy, and that’s why you said before that you’ve made this pivot into the beauty of art. I think that’s important. I think we need to find like-minded communities, and unfortunately, for some communities, they’re dominated by specific gender. And that makes it harder sometimes, that’s sort of lends itself to the necessity of having to branch out.

UMA KELKAR: Right, right.

TAMAR: Yeah. So, talk about your self-care. What do you usually do besides your urban sketching?

34:02

UMA KELKAR: So, Thursday nights are saved for paintings. And it’s like a religion in the house. So, at 7:30 everybody vacates the kitchen because the kitchen has to be pristine. So that’s my mental self-care. It’s yoga for my soul. And then we have been working out so yeah, I’ve been working out more religiously, actually. And having the kids at home is great because I can’t hide. I can’t tell them I worked out and didn’t work out. So I think children don’t listen to what you tell them. They do what you do, so I better do. And then we we’ve placed a yoga challenge between me and my husband. There is a particular complex pose. I mean, the pose is simple, but it needs a strong core to be able to do it. It’s called my Eros and or the peacock pose. And every day, we just strike once. And hopefully we get to do it by the end of this quarantine. And that’s what’s motivating to be able to do that.

35:14

TAMAR: I like it, I would never be able to do it. I can do downward dog and stuff like that.

35:20

UMA KELKAR: A friend of mine said, don’t you feel imprisoned? I said, Okay, let’s think about that. Yes, I feel in prison. So like prisoners who go to prison and come out ripped at the end of their terms. That’s exactly how we’re going to come up.

35:33

TAMAR: I love that. I love that. I want to do that. And I can, there’s never I can’t. But I will say that it’s a bigger struggle, because I have this sort of an internal conflict in my mind, I want to feed my community, and enjoy the food that I’m feeding my community with, I want to be in I want to be present. And like I always used to think to myself, if I were in prison, what would I be doing? I would be working out completely. But they don’t have these plentiful options. And the thing is, you probably have more stuff, you have probably have less than we do. Because I’m going out of my way to contact farms. People who like produce zebra forage have produced with different farms to make sure we have everything. And I don’t want my community going hungry. Last week, we did a big donation for the community and also the first responders. Wow, it’s amazing. But at the same time, what’s more important, making other people feel good, and then I’ll focus on myself later. And I think that’s where I’m going, which still is very rewarding of itself mentally. And I think maybe that’s what I need. I don’t know, I want it but at the same time, I feel I love that. Oh, God, I have to do that. I don’t know how I’m going to figure it out.

36:47

UMA KELKAR: But that’s the same dilemma that founders have. I mean, I’m really proud of you and how you’re thinking about the community and putting it ahead in terms of priorities. And as founders, don’t we have the same thing that make me happy? Or do I stay in a job and be financially available for my children and if I’m unhappy, I think we will cause more damage.

TAMAR: Yeah.

UMA KELKAR: After certain limits of care and security are built.

37:22

TAMAR: Right. It comes down to the common theme that we kind of talked about, it really comes down to attitude. I was very depressed two years ago, I had literally suffered one of the large, biggest losses in my life. I actually posted on my main Instagram account a little bit of a tribute to what happened and where I’ve come from since, but I had specifically said that I wasn’t able, that was my rise above the ashes story. I suffered an incredible loss and things were and thank God, I’m in a better place. But so two years ago, if I were in this pandemic, I don’t know what I’d be doing. But thankfully, I’m in this pandemic. Now, where my mind has been, it’s literally the happiest I’ve ever been. Finally, taking control of myself, and I am also trying to do what I can. So it’s taking responsibility for yourself and the people around you. And I think that a lot of people are struggling there are going to be, or we’re all suffering in some way. I’m not suffering, I’m just choosing to make the best of the situation right now.

38:39

UMA KELKAR: Right, right. Can I ask you what that loss was? And you can say, no.

38:44

TAMAR: Let me just read it out loud.

UMA KELKAR: Okay.

TAMAR: This is my first time ever sharing this, I did not feel comfortable. I’ve truncated it slightly. I’m going to have to shorten it a little bit for the purposes of Instagram. Okay, this is a very, very personal story. It’s a little bit of a raw story. And it’s brief for basic, but I will just provide this. So I just posted this on the seventh of April. So this was just about a week ago. Two years ago, today, I was coming home from Passover in Rochester with my best friend who I treated as a sister at a time of great emotional vulnerability. Two days later, I would be beaten and battered by the same person because my utility as a resource was drawing to an end and I was becoming more than gravity, the resulting pain of being treated with absolute disrespect when I did nothing but giving ultimate sacrifice, it was more painful than most things I’d encountered because the emotional investment was beyond normal, beyond most human comprehension, and it’s only imaginable when someone is in such a deteriorated and weakened mental state that this even seems plausible. To a normal person, it is not possible. One must be so far gone to allow this to happen to themselves. And unfortunately, I was unaware how bad I’d fallen, but this was the ultimate low, for me my rock bottom. And for those looking to school me on my perspective, emotional pain is different than other pain, it is all about attitude. When an attitude is already in such a negative headspace, you’re bound to fall into the depths of despair. Nothing has changed in a year since. And while I still feel pain and a longing on a daily basis, I’m stronger than better than ever, I’ve become exactly who I needed to be. I don’t regret the mistakes that put me in a trajectory of encountering the extreme agony I dealt with, during and after this experience. I needed to be a victim of trauma and abuse to rise above my ashes and become stronger. Nonetheless, I sometimes wish for things to go back to where they used to be, at least socially. And now more than ever, while we are socially isolated., imagine how someone who’s fully aware of your recent struggles refuses to make contacts. I suspect I can’t place blame. Either way, I’ve moved on. And while one day, I would like to see closure, I know how impossible that would be from the perspective of an abuser admitting they were wrong. And for that, it’s okay, I forgive you. I’m happy being me. I’ve never been happier. We are in uncertain times, and I’m feeling amazing. I can never have had this positive attitude while nursing a sick and mentally unstable individual because it becomes all too consuming and depressing. Thankfully, I’m far removed from that situation. It wasn’t a choice of my own, but it worked out better than I could have hoped. Thank you for letting me see the light. It is beautiful on the other side, even during a national pandemic.

UMA KELKAR: Absolutely.

41:26

TAMAR: Yeah.

41:27

UMA KELKAR: Hats off to your courage for your vulnerability and for feeling safe enough to share.

41:34

TAMAR: Yeah, it took a while. I feel it’s weird that I’m not an online introvert. When I’m around, like, It’s weird. I feel more willing to share things that are very intimate about myself in a written form, but when I’m face to face with somebody I can barely get in a few words, I’m very articulate. The pandemic has really opened the floodgates for my writing ability and my ability to be expressive. It took me two years to figure out how to write this. And it was like 1:30 in the morning. I’m like, I need to do this. And I just threw off. I opened Google Keep and I just started writing this

42:14

UMA KELKAR: Beautiful, beautiful. It’s your way of communicating. I totally get this. I’m an extrovert on Yeah, I hear you. And you are so better off out of a toxic relationship and abusive toxic relationship. And the world is better off because of that. We don’t know how but it is a butterfly effect.

42:38

TAMAR: Yeah.

UMA KELKAR: Yeah, yeah. Good for you.

42:41

TAMAR: Yeah, definitely.

UMA KELKAR: Yeah.

TAMAR: So, I guess I’ll just leave you with a final question. And I usually don’t give you those. It’s not your three lists of questions that you have because it’s one of those things where I’d love to hear the reaction after I ask it. So if you wanted to give an earlier version of yourself some advice, what would you tell her?

43:11

UMA KELKAR: I would tell her that I’m smart or she’s smart.

43:17

TAMAR: And she’s got this because you do. I think you have it. And you’re making it work. And don’t give up on yourself. I like that, simple. It’s brief, but it makes a lot of sense.

43:32

UMA KELMAR: Thank you.

43:34

TAMAR:  Yeah. Awesome. Is there anything else that you think we should share with the audience?

43:43

UMA KELMAR: Oh, nothing with the audience but with you that this is great. You’re not only making lemonade out of lemons, but when people say women rising, what does it mean? You don’t really have to be a superhero. This is being hero.

43:59

TAMAR: You’re not looking and you’re not wallowing in your sadness. And I did that for a while. I think a lot of us do. And I think that the current climate lends itself to a lot of wallowing. But either you’re going to find yourself distracted by helping your community and teaching your classes, or you’re going to let it envelop you in a way that’s not healthy.

UMA KELKAR: Yeah, right.

TAMAR: And for me, personally, I think that the healthiest thing you can be doing is pushing to help other people.

44:39

UMA KELKAR: Right?

TAMAR: Yeah.

44:41

UMA KELKAR: Good luck with your startup. And yeah, I will stay connected.

44:47

TAMAR: Yeah. Thank you so much for joining and I’ll keep you posted on what’s coming.

44:53

UMA KELKAR: Wonderful. Good luck Tamar.

44:55

TAMAR: All right. Good luck.

As the pandemic and our quarantines continue, our lives are forever changed. Teresa Kwon talks about this as well as the toxic job environment that caused her to reevaluate what is most important in life.

TAMAR: Hi, everybody. Today we are in April, and it has been a crazy, crazy couple of weeks. We’re going to talk about all those lovely things. But today I am with Teresa Kwon. She hails from Texas and she is living the life there. Talk about that. Thank you so much for joining us as well.

00:34

TERESA KWON: Thank you so much. Yeah, here hailing from Austin, Texas, and oh, boy, I was just thinking, doing a third Throwback Thursday post in Instagram and I realized 3 weeks ago. That was when things were starting to really crank up. I was actually in Colorado Springs. And we are having almost like a staycation experience. They’re coming back to Austin. I feel like that was at least six months ago. These last two weeks have been absolutely insane.

01:10

TAMAR: Well, it’s funny, you say three weeks. I’m just jealous, because literally it has been four weeks for me already, four plus. Yeah, started early.

TERESA KWON:  Yeah,

01:21

TAMAR: But yeah, talk about where you’re going from and to right now?

01:25

TERESA KWON: Sure. Absolutely. Oh, wait, I’ll introduce myself, for those people who don’t know, my name is Teresa Kwon. And I am the founder and CEO of Daringly Great Leadership, it is a consulting company that I have started, part of my story of rising from the ashes. And we provide leadership coaching, as well as business strategy for female founders and business owners who really want to put family and freedom first, and have basically help design and help scale a business that really supports the life that you want. So, I’m excited to be able to share what my journey has been like, it has definitely been a journey of twists and turns, and many Phoenix moments.

02:16

TAMAR: So yeah, so talk to me about that. What brought you to where you are today? And where did you come from?

02:24

TERESA KWON: Sure, Oh, my gosh. So I have probably one of the most nontraditional multiple, nine life situations. It’s a big running joke with the woman that I mentor, and even to my family that I have had 1000 lives. And my career started quite early, a lot of it has to do with the entrepreneurial roots that I come from. I come from three generations on both sides of my family of entrepreneurs and leaders. And so growing up in a family business like that was actually my first job, I did the books of our business. And you learn a lot when you do the books, and especially if it’s a family operation. And from there that’s probably a little over 25 years of working in every sector, so nonprofit government and the private sector. And, gosh, I don’t even know where to start there. But those were all the twists and turns that have led me to burn it all down yet again, and now make this the business that I’ll be moving forward with, and continuing to do social good.

03:42

TAMAR: That’s amazing. So yeah, tell us about how your transition has basically occurred in this. I don’t know what’s the right word. I don’t want to say these tumultuous time, but to some degree it is.

03:57

TERESA KWON: It really is.

TAMAR: Yeah, yeah. Explain. Explain. I mean, have you had to make any pivots within what you were doing today? I assume not so much. I assume you’re probably thriving in a remote capacity. Talk about what kind of adjustments you’d have seen, though.

04:10

TERESA KWON: Yeah. So, it’d be interesting to compare across those who are in the business consulting, vertical as I am. But for me, I will say that it’s interesting. I was speaking to an associate yesterday and he said, oh, it’s like you had a prophetic edge. And what I mean by that is that actually came into 2020. Hearing very strongly, that it is really started in q4 last year to really simplify my operations. And what I mean by that I have this hashtag that I’ve developed over the past few months, and I’d already been on this trajectory of slower, closer, deeper. And I know that so opposite of most business owners and founders, everything’s really about bigger, better, further faster, etc. I mean in Hello, I was definitely subscribing to those previous hashtags, but something in my gut had told me no actually, like slim down, slow down, simplified. And so where I met, it’s interesting, I feel like I’ve been so laser focused on the 5% in my business. And as a type of person that’s really hard to let the 95% kind of go. But I feel fortunate that I’ve gotten really razor sharp about what I’m focusing on in my business and how I’m serving clients right now. And that’s actually pulled through real study. Now, does that mean income wise, I’ve not been affected? The answer is no. I had contracts in the pipeline with clients who were wanting to work one on one, who were right in the middle of their decision. And then all this happened. And of course, the smart move is to pull back and evaluate and see whether this is the best move, moving forward. And so, absolutely, I have been affected in terms of contracts. I was telling a business friend of mine, that I feel like I have been, and I feel like this is the same for all us all because she said, Oh my gosh, that’s the best analogy. I feel that I can’t get my sea legs right now, in the midst of all of this, because it’s not like this steady current. It’s like, one moment these huge waves of storm and you’re trying to like grab onto the side, and then it’s sort of like calms out a little bit, or you get the hang of it, and then it like shifts to another pattern. And there’s always these unknowns that keep happening. And so I mean, even recently, some colleagues and I, we started pivoting, actually towards consulting, specifically business owners through all of the relief packages and options out there because it’s just so confusing. And with my background in contracts and working i with a lot of business law, I’m not an attorney, but I have worked with a lot of business law negotiating and m&a and etc. Like, it’s been easy and working in government. It’s for whatever reason, easier for me to interpret and strategize around what would be the best option for each individual business. Because each individual business and or even individual, the options, like it’s just such a Tetris moment right now. So with that, I’ll say that I’ve been doing most of a lot of that work, pro bono for a little bit. And now I’m starting to take on clients consulting clients for that.

08:12

TAMAR: Awesome, awesome. Well, it looks like you’re ahead of the game because I mean, in the context of what you’re doing, I can’t imagine, besides the fact that everybody’s trying to cut their budgets, potentially, due to this threat to their economic stability, actually have a very, very portable business very flexible. So that gives yourself a lot of opportunity. Yes, I used to  just remember back in the day, after having children, I said to myself, I have to work remotely, especially because where I was in my life wasn’t lending itself to making me see my children, because I’m that kind of workaholic. And I know that if I were to go out, I would want to come home, but I wouldn’t want to come home because I would want to also make sure everything is done. And I want to be very efficient. And I’m very logistical and very operations minded. So all that stuff. Ultimately, I’m going to end up Inbox Zero, type of person like you. And I knew that that would be too difficult. So I ended up saying to myself, I need to find work from home jobs, remote jobs, remote jobs, remote jobs, and nothing, no business except for very few which are very open about it. But those are the ones once you’re like already in their talent pool. That’s where you’re going from there. So to some degree, especially if you want to have that kind of flexibility. And I think women in particular, especially, I think there was a piece that was in the Atlantic, White House employee, like you can’t have it all. And I used to see that and I used to say I identify with that. You can’t have that all if you’re going to be in an office, you might be able to have a little more of it if you’re working from home. And now this particular world right now is kind of forcing people to realign their expectations in terms of hey, we can be productive over the phone. We can be productive remotely, we can be productive over Skype, we have face to face on zoom. And it’s amazing for me personally, I want to read this about you. But I do want to talk about something that’s been really interesting for me being that this is four weeks and being that like I thrive in remote environments. Like I actually have my wife, I use WhatsApp, we use WhatsApp groups for my community. And I have a new tagline for myself like a boss because I’m taking the initiative to every single day. And every single day different establishments, making sure people are fed, making sure people are being given produce or them having relationships with vendors, while also having relationships with Apple, and messaging them on WhatsApp just like that here, you owe this money, and you owe this money. And your pickup is here. And your pickup is there. And everybody has different pickups. There’s like we have 75 people for one of them. And there’s divide and that’s about eight different locations, and everybody has different assignments. That’s one thing and that there’s another thing, it’s absolutely insane. But I’m realizing, wait a minute, and people are asking, what do you do for a living? I’m like, what, if everything fails, I have a job with you, right? So, you just have to kind of pivot your mindset and your attitude to also make sure that you’re able to accommodate the crazy uncertainty of our time.

11:15

TERESA KWON: Hmm, I mean, I completely am there with you. And the most recent workplace industry that I was working in Austin, Texas, surprised not surprised, is I was working in tech startup. And, I know, and you know, and anyone that works in tech startup knows, it’s a whole another level of hair on fire. And, and I hear you I was there. And I say my story has everything to do with having to really stop and realize the toll it was taking on my marriage, on my family, on my health. And because it’s Mach Two with your hair on fire using a Top Gun reference. And it was I live, breathe, eat, work at 90 hours a week. I mean, I would fall asleep on my laptop on my kitchen table, at the end of the day at three in the morning, and then wake up to the CEO calling me at seven. That was my life for so many years. And if you don’t do that you’re lesser than right.

12:28

TAMAR: And that is very hustle, hustle.

12:30

TERESA KWON: Yes, it is and a little bit toxic. I’ll tell you that.

12:36

TAMAR: So talking about, you’re positioning it in a way that you’re not getting any sleep. Of course, besides the emotional element of it, there’s the top physical toxicity of feeling like you have to be on call and beholden to people. And that’s why I also made my own pivot.

12:49

TERESA KWON: Yes, exactly. And it’s so funny and yet not funny. That right now with what’s happening, the biggest disruption that is happening, and a really great buzz word inside of the startup realm is be a disrupter. We like disrupting industries and systems and what’s broken and I’m like, well, guess what? God, Universe, Mother Nature, whatever you call it, it has been the biggest disrupter of all right here. Right now, this has disrupted. And this is what I keep saying, it’s like the mania and the rapid loss of control, even though we think we’re in control, the rapid rub up and the loss of control that the whole globe was like operating at, and losing touch with the things that were the most important. And for me, I will say the most important has everything to do with a family, has everything to do with truly my values and my health. And here, we are inconvenienced, quote unquote, do have to just really focus on those very things. So I think it’s interesting. And when I worked in startup, we had the option of having work from home and working remotely. I remember hiking Machu Picchu and still having to dial in remote for work, even though they said unlimited PTO. And I don’t know what the pace has been like for startups, I mean to you, because my colleagues, I know that everybody’s going through shock and grieving, like all the patterns, the seven stages of grief, like it’s happening. So, I don’t know if startups are accommodating for that or not, but I know that the lifestyle I was living before when working in startups, did not have any room for you to even stop and go to the bathroom sometimes.

14:59

TAMAR: To your comment about startup culture and whether or not they have the flexibility, I think there’s a lot of adjustment everywhere. A lot of people are in turmoil right now. I had a guy who is coming who came to my house in the beginning of this whole thing. And I think it was the beginning of a job. And I texted him later on about something. And he had said to me, I lost the job. I don’t know what cultures were there, I read an article about how this pandemic is actually causing for some startup to really falling at the cracks. So  got it.

15:40 – 16:13 (indecipherable)

 16:13

TERESA KWON:  Let’s take this seriously. We’re smart human beings. Let’s not use the lizard brain part to make decisions right now. And yet, what has been interesting to observe, like you were saying, there’s some people taking it seriously, some people who are not. I was actually reading articles last night. The Atlantic is actually one of my favorite sources right now. And I was reading articles last night, and it was saying like, unfortunately, there is a very high correlation of political divide and demographics, in terms of the way people are responding. Some of the local governments have done the lockdown procedures and others haven’t. But regardless, there’s a guideline to social justice, right? But yeah, to me, it’s scary to see how, I don’t know maybe some people were thinking it’s a YOLO car pay, if I get the virus whatever moment versus thinking a little bit more a  broader, longer term, and even if you might be healthy, thinking about how you might be contributing to the effect of someone else, even losing their life, right? But in terms of the unemployment, and I know this firsthand because my husband actually is in the service sector, he’s a chef. And so recently lost his role, his job, and I know so many people who are in the hospitality and service industry. And I would say a great vast majority of people in the unemployment block is there. It’s so interesting how interdependent our life is like from the people that make our yummy sushi to the people who clean houses, to the people who cut our hair, to the people who etc, etc. and 30% to me is like super low.

18:23

TAMAR: Yes, it’s scary 30% of like millions of people and then you imagine when everything reopens, and the floodgates open, and these employers are going to be flooded with applications, beyond their expectations, beyond their wildest dreams, and they’re not even going to find potentially the best candidate because how can they even wade through all that volume?

18:45

TERESA KWON: Exactly. Right. And that’s so great that you’re bringing that up because part of what I do is I help business owners and companies really create that talent pipeline. And learned quite a lot working in government, nonprofits, fortune 100 and startups, like how to select great talent. And it’s going to be an absolute nightmare later. So I’m glad that you’re seeing that. And I don’t know that anyone is prepared for that either.

19:23

TAMAR: There’s nothing we are not prepared for here.

19:25

TERESA KWON: No, no. And at some point, I don’t think people are ready now. But I know  that’s part of the conversation that I’ll be speaking into because, golly, I mean, I was reading articles that was  comparing this finally, I’ve been saying it’s like the only biggest disrupter that’s decimated our economy. Like this was the Great Depression and World War 1 and 2 and I start seeing articles that finally made those parallels. And I was like, yes people keep talking about a new normal, and I’m like, there is no normal anymore.

TAMAR: Right.

TERESA KWON:  We’re changed, we’re going to change society. It’s not going to go back to what it used to be like.

TAMAR: Hopefully, the restaurants open for our husbands’ sake. And just in general, I hope the restaurants come back.

20:29

TERESA KWON:  Thank you, and eventually I believe they will because if anything, people are sick of cooking.

20:39

TAMAR: Yeah, I will tell you; I don’t have the time or the energy to cook. And it’s very stressful for me personally. So I have been relying on takeout. And it’s very bad for me because I’ve been so diligent. My self-care routine is part of like running and going to the gym to things that I can’t do running a little bit. But because I had the virus, I actually have been unable to do it to the same degree, I can’t leave my property. So I’m doing it on my property. And I’m doing it slower, and I’m doing it intervals. So all those things mean that I’m not even diligent about that. And then I’m used to do one meal a day intermittent fasting, and I can’t really do that because my mind is not in the right place. So I think a lot of people are finding that they’re struggling, it creates a lot of tumult and turmoil in your own inner mind.

21:27

TERESA KWON:  Yeah, I think it’s interesting. I love this quote, and I’ve always said this, but I feel like it’s so appropriate now, is that crisis reveals what was always within. And I think one of the things that we as a society are having to grip with, that’s been so difficult is, I’m going to get nerdy for a second, but Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. That all of us have been in a lot of you can say, not all of us, but a lot of people are pretty much obsessed with the question of why am I put on this earth? What else can I achieve? And how can I make more money or get that promotion, etc. That’s like, the very top of the pyramid of like, self-advocacy. And this just knocked us on our total behind. I have no idea if you can swear on this podcast.

TAMAR: But keep it like that.

21:27

TERESA KWON:  Yeah, and there’s five levels of Maslow, and we’re down to the first two, which is, number one is food and shelter, that’s very bottom, and second, has to do with safety. Right. And when you’re knocked down to those very basics, when you’re operating at the very top, it reveals where you might not have had the foundation, right? I mean, this the level above that has to do with belonging, and when you’re going so fast and furious, going after the bigger bucks, and the bigger titles and etc. you don’t necessarily realize that you might have had a shaky base to your pyramid. And I think that’s something that’s being revealed that people have been operating by, maybe have had like an incredibly trim body, like a great portfolio. Like, everything looks great on the outside, but on the inside, which have to do with mindset and beliefs, etc. Or even relationships, like on the inside, it was not as solid. So we’re coming to grips with that.

23:50

TAMAR: We’ll talk on one thing, and then I want to talk about your rising above the ashes story because I know you had a couple to talk about, but in terms of the belonging, I will say that and I’ve written two articles about this. Number one, the article about how I tested positive for Coronavirus. And it was more about what you’re talking about earlier about our responsibility to stay indoors because even if we’re not carrying it, we could potentially be saving lives, but the other one was about the quarantine in general. And I wrote it before anyone really had a quarantine. So it had more of an impact, because everybody was like, oh, you’re in quarantine. Oh my God, sorry. And now everybody’s in quarantine. So no one’s reading it. But it was a very profound article and it was about the fact that because I am in quarantine, we deferred it to our communications on a WhatsApp group. And I mean, this is a community wide WhatsApp group of people. Coronavirus spread actually started in my synagogue. And I always had struggled socially in my synagogue, I was depressed when I moved in. Things were very difficult and I had a very, very difficult time breaking the ice with people and I still do have difficulty with that. And when we finally found myself in this WhatsApp group, I felt like we don’t see each other’s ages, we don’t see what we’re wearing. We only have names and that’s it. It made me feel finally I belong somewhere. And this whole story took me a really long time. And I said, this too shall pass, but in the end, I’m not sure I really want it to, that’s how it kind of ended. So the belonging was there, and I’m not sure if I have this stuff underneath. But that was a really interesting part. I think for anybody who’s really struggling, you got to find your community and hopefully you’ll have people to kind of lean on a lot. WhatsApp groups have kind of came out as not so much WhatsApp groups, but also Facebook groups have been erected specifically for working within the quarantine and I think I highly recommend that anybody looking who or who’s struggling, either create your own if you don’t have one yet or otherwise, you can try to join an existing one. I’ve been invited to three, so somewhere like as far as Australia and as far as local as my own community. Actually, there’s a lot more than three if I can sit at the local communities. Actually at least five or six, when you start to think about global because this has a global impact now, there’s  opportunities to really do this everywhere.

26:13

TERESA KWON: I love that you’re underscoring community right now, one of my top values and again, in the moment I can just hear like, okay, what next, right, and there are two things that have come up for me in the last week. I feel like it’s been six months, but it’s only been like a two or three weeks for us. At least for me.

26:42

TAMAR: Yeah, today is March 27th.

TERESA KWON: Yeah. What? April? There’s no April.

26:50

TAMAR: Introduction today says, hey, welcome to the podcast. Today is March 25.

26:55

TERESA KWON: Right. After vlog day, 2021. So, just to underscore belonging, I know that. So one of the things I’ve heard is to gather in circles of hope that I love that you said that, yes, we absolutely need community more than ever. And I was reading, again, I’m like a crazy reader. I love that right now like this, one of the positive things that’s come out from it is that COVID-19 has, in essence, level the playing field where we’re coming together, not by social status, economic status, like our alumnus, or our industry or maybe even our synagogue or the church. We’re not coming together based on those kinds of social circles. This is truly, like really dissolved. So many of the barriers that have in essence, like we’ve caught, we might have had community we may not have been able to fit in or not. But it really did divide us. Right?  and divided us more, but now we have this thing that is now an interest is global. And that puts us all into one category. And the one category truly is that we are the human race, and coming together behind missions, like the amazing work that you’re doing right now. Like that supersedes a lot of what had determined social circles and groups. And in nonprofit sector, they have this thing called social capital, which is essentially like saying the relationship is currency. Yeah, we need this more than ever, and if any of your listeners who are feeling like well, I don’t even know where to find one. Or how do I get into a group or I’m not really good in groups. I’m an introvert. I mean, hell, I’m an introvert right here, is. I just tapped a few friends from even my college days, someone pointed out that we haven’t been together in almost 25 years. And we got together all on zoom, because nobody has plans on a Friday night. And get together was just so very nurturing. And it’s something we need right now. So I’m glad that you’re finding community in all of this. And for those people who are still may be thinking, I’m fine, I have my job, blah, blah, blah. I’m like, I want to challenge that.

29:40

TAMAR: Yeah, I mean, who knows what it’s going to look like if this becomes a long term thing, and also severe.

29:45

TERESA KWON: Exactly.

29:46

TAMAR: To some degree I know we want to talk about your story, and we’re kind of like PvE. We pivoted within the podcast about how it’s funny like I want to hear obviously your rising above the ashes story, but at the same time, to some degree, we’re all in ashes right now. And this is kind of how we’re rising. So it is kind of almost a little more appropriate, especially in the context of where we are right now.

30:13

TERESA KWON: Hmm, a 100%, a 100%.

TAMAR: And so let’s talk about that because I realized.

30:20

TERESA KWON:  Yeah, we could talk about this forever, right? Yeah, I have so many start overs burned down for me, or where I left them out to myself. And I can talk about my most recent and I started making reference to how, I just one day had to start looking at my life from the outside, either you can say, in some ways, the truly inside out or from your outside in third person standpoint. But I was working at a product but also as a chief of staff, in a startup, and also consulting founders because I used to like prep for fundraising round and or work on the other side of the table, help VCs like that. startups. So, it’s interesting, I would say it was maybe short sighted, even  I thought it was farsighted, like longer term. But I had been in it because I got married later in my life, because I was in major career mode and going for it. And I had aged parents basically as soon as I got married, so that put me in this weird breadwinner seat. And so for me, working as much as I did, and trying to get the titles became just less about me, because I’m never really title grabber. I’ve never been that person. But I realized that was tied to salary for me, and having to be the breadwinner of aged parents with hospital bills and all that, I really thought like, get the promotions, get more, do all that make more money because this is to support my family. And, on top of that, doing consulting, and it was honestly, I don’t think I even realized how unhealthy my boundaries were because my work was my life. And I had a very young marriage. And it was actually his parents. So I don’t know that he could have said anything, because he felt bad that we were in this position, because it wasn’t like, planned. And we basically would have like, 40 minutes to an hour on the couch watching something on TV together, when he would get off his work shift, because he was a chef, so he get home at 11pm. And, for me, I’ve just been working nonstop, like, maybe went to the bathroom, maybe might have put something in my mouth to eat, maybe had some water kind of thing. And we basically had a roommate status, basically barely saw each other married. And we were fighting a lot and I was getting sick. And I was not taking care of myself. And I felt constantly stressed. And I already had a history of adrenal fatigue. And I knew all the symptoms, and I was like, well, here it comes again. And I was gaining, like 50 pounds. And it was just I saw all the signs. But it all led to was one day, I’m just like, just keep going, just keep going until one day found myself on the floor in the middle of snot and tears, and my husband and I are fighting yet again. And my husband asked me for divorce. And in that moment, I was like there was a movie director who had played out that moment, it’s like, my whole life collapsed in front of me and I saw these patterns that we’re repeating from my parents. It was almost enlightenment moment where I realized like, oh my gosh, I have been operating from a formula for success taught to me by my parents. My parents started like they had a rise from the ashes and I’m so grateful, started with 50 bucks in their pocket, my dad 50 bucks in his pocket, and then doing everything under the sun, and into the middle class, gave us an incredible life, and all of it was through workaholism. You work hard, you need to know what the value of $1 is, like, turn off the lights if you’re not in that room. Like I followed that same formula for success and realized that I started sacrificing the same way that my parents did which was just work to the bone, to provide for your loved ones. It really did not become anything about trying to get the promotion for me, it was more like, what else can I do to support my family better. But what happened was that it completely deteriorated my marriage, that completely deteriorated my health. And then on top of all of that, I was absolutely miserable because I was not living according to my own values. And there were so many decisions being made and the startups that I worked with, that I just couldn’t, it just would make me sick. And yet, sometimes, when you’re either Chief of Staff, or you head a whole department of product, like, I have to then be the mouthpiece and implement things that are decisions that are made from the sea level that I didn’t even agree with to the core of my being. And then on top of that, what was happening with my own house and my family. And I knew I had to change, but I just kind of was like, well, straight back into everything. I had a second moment. My husband and I were like, okay, we need to just break up this pattern that we’re in. So we took this giant trip, went to see my friends in the UK. And I remember sitting having coffee in a garden outside. Oh, no tea, of course, it is the UK. And a longtime friend of mine, and she just stops and she just had tears in her eyes. And she’s like, Teresa, I have never seen you this dead before. You know and hear my thinking, like, I just went to Iceland and climbed it like iceberg and iceberg or the glacier and I feel great.  And I feel like that moment just popped. It’s just like really, like anything, I mustered back up to get right back into work. I just like popped everything. And of course, I’m bawling and thinking like I can’t, everything that I was, the meltdown I had inside, like just took over. And I started my exit plan. And the interesting thing was, and for me, like I do believe in God, and divine, like handed things, I started my exit plan to re kickstart my consulting business, and exit that company. So I had that six month plan. And what was so interesting and ironic, and I’m over it now was that during those six months, and we don’t have to go fully into it, but there was this whole case built to basically exit me, I’m like a triple protected class. I’m over 40, I’m minority, and I’m a woman in senior leadership, and they had to build an ironclad case to like, exit me from the company and built this terrible case around it. And it just further confirms how I was not working within my own integrity and my own values. And I was exited from the company, the very company that I helped build from scratch, and was decimating my own personal life. And ironically, they called me into the room, and I just knew what was about to happen, and part of me was so angry because I felt really wronged, a lot of things were fabricated. Let’s just put it that way to build a case. But I just said thanks. Thanks because this is to me His mercy. And I’m not meant to be here. But it is a blow to the ego. And it was a blow to our income stream. It was terrible because they actually tore down my reputation in the process.

39:50

TERESA KWON: So, all the things that you don’t want to hear from a leadership or from an industry. I’m pretty well known in the startup industry here in Austin. And what I had to do was realize that my worth and my identity was not my job. My worth in my identity was not how much money I brought home. My worth and my identity was not my job title even, or my associations through what reputable company I worked for, or what name drops I can make, or who I went to happier with, or what projects and how much money I was able to make through my latest launch. But all the metrics that many of us kind of go after to say, hey, I’ve done it, I’m an incredible asset to the world, all of those things, just I had to peel all those layers off that the society had taught me and come down to who am I and that who I am, is inherently worthy. Who I am and what I believe and what I stand for is paramount above what I guess, metrics for success. Say you are worthy to be seen or worthy to be included or etc. So that was a process that I have gone through actually multiple times, like having to re identify with who I am and my values, and what’s most important to me. And I would say the most recent time, the older the wiser. I chose to also burn down my consulting business that was working a lot with the startup founders that were in the fundraising round, and designed a business. And that was only going to support the lifestyle, the values that I truly stood for, at the end of the day, stripped away from all the things that I’ve been trained to believe is how you make yourself valuable in the world.

42:37

So, here am I, that’s how I pivoted my business, my consulting business. And now I only work with people who are truly going to put people first, who truly want to build a lifestyle that values family. I mean, because I’ve definitely learned my lesson. I mean, we’ve not divorced, we saved our marriage, we’re stronger than ever. And yeah, I just realized the experience and the background and the expertise that I have, and bring to the table, especially across three sectors, and also the globe. Like I worked globally, that I have my own secret sauce now on what are best practices and how to do things in the Lean Startup fashion that is truly values aligned. Truly mission driven, not based on the buts birds that we hear from startup where they’re like, oh, we’re values or culture first. And I’m like, no, man.

TAMAR: Yeah.

TERESA KWON: I have been in leadership where that’s just a bunch of Kool Aid.

43:57

TAMAR: Totally mimic, I had the same similar situation as well, like overworked and it took a toll and I ended up having the foresight, I don’t know if I had the foresight, because it was still incredibly stressful. And I was depressed. I have a husband who completely would have left me if I was in that position, and he was amazing. But I did have the foresight to know because if I did it any other way, it would have been so much worse. But it was still pretty bad for nine years and gosh, and I had to prioritize differently. But even when I prioritize being in my house didn’t change the mentality, the workers mindset. It was just very difficult and it’s extremely difficult when you’re in a position where you feel like beholden to everybody, to your stakeholders and all the people around you and yet you’re put yourself behind. So yeah.

TERESA KWON: Exactly.

TAMAR: And I’m glad you’re in a place where you’re better and happier. And I mean, I can tell by your attitude that I think all of us as a human race, as we talked about, you talked about earlier, we’re all in ashes right now. And we’re kind of climbing out of threat. And, it’s really about where your head is today. And hopefully, we’re able to be there tomorrow. Because if you have the right attitude today, hopefully, it could only be better tomorrow, it’s going to get worse before it gets better. And that’s terrifying for me.

TERESA KWON: Exactly.

TAMAR: But at the same time, keep your head above the ashes and not inside of them.

45:32

TERESA KWON: Exactly, yes. And this is what we find  right now, this is a reset. This is a global reset time, and you can choose to divide it, you can choose to fight it and try to maintain your quote, normal, but society has changed, the world has changed. And if you’re operating based on the old OS, you’re not going to thrive in this new one.

TAMAR: Right. So, let’s talk about how you’re trying to thrive. I mean, you told us in the beginning, and fortunately, we did have like a recording issue. So you talked about how your transition is basically your living room to the bedroom, which I guess is the best you can do under the circumstances of being in isolation. But in reality, what are you doing now to stay sane? And what do you usually do to stay sane? What’s your self-care like?

46:28

TERESA KWON: Oh, I’m so glad you’re asking. I mean, instead of like comparing other things, I feel like lately, this is the conversation. It’s like what’s working for you, and so I would say the first one is just grace over grind. I think if you are a high achiever, ultra-high achiever, like you and I probably are ultra- high achievers, we have probably with the edge of perfection as we’re used to, like being able to do 1000 things at one time. We figured out how to basically really navigate the old OS. But right now, the conditions are changing all the time. And even when my earlier background was in project management and etc. and you really always have to readjust your plan based on the circumstances, conditions, situation, stakeholders, etc. all of that is in flux. So, right now, I think  grace over grind and when I say that, you’re probably going to be in the single digits of productivity compared to what you used to be able to do. And that’s okay. And that you have to give yourself permission for that. I know that one of the things that you said earlier and I said I’ve been saying too is that like my brain is broken right now. I know I have a mind but like my brain cannot even recall sort of vocabulary words. Like we’re so out of and I’ll talk about entrainment and a little bit so and now we have people in the house and childcare and this and that just like completely disrupting everything and then just like the grief in general of the loss, grief on so many levels loss of whether or not you have income loss or not, but it is a grief of like the loss of loved ones, loss of those in our communities. And also I will say a loss of what was normal and I don’t know that people are talking about that. So, I think that right now if you’re not getting your sea legs right now then you’re not meant to stand in Superman pull pose stiff right now thinking you can just handle it. You’ve got to stay flexible and have some grace permission to not be all that you were. The second thing for me is really a spiritual practice. I think right now in this whole world of constant chaos, change, turmoil, uncertainty, you need and if you’ve watched that TV’s ABC TV series, there was a constant. And I think we all need some kind of constant and whether people are religious or not or your listeners, but for me, a spiritual practice and connecting to God or higher source has been so bedrock for me. And it’s given me space to just in essence really have a place to be very full monty without having all my feelings and my thoughts and trying to see things from a higher perspective that is less in the weeds right now. And I think right now the reason why it’s so chaotic is every news update, every email, every text, every whatever, that’s giving us new information, we’re in the weeds of it. And if everything is moment by moment, we’re going to lose ourselves to that, like, our psyche just cannot handle it. The third is move your body, and I’m going to call it exercise. It’s just like, just move your body.

50:55

TAMAR: Yeah. There’s a guy who is actually in China, I think he did a marathon in his living room, because he couldn’t  go anywhere else. He has got watch movements to show proof of it.

51:08

TERESA KWON: Wow. Yeah, you got to move your body. And if you know much about anxiety and the way the body sympathetic system kicks in when you are in fear, which also is anxiety signal to your body the same way fear does, like an alliance about to jump on you. You have all of this extra reason why you feel kind of like, is because your body is turned on the sympathetic nervous system, it’ll be good for you guys to watch, like and learn a little bit more about how the brain and the body work. But now you have this influx of adrenaline, that’s meant for you to now quickly run away from the lion. But there is no lion in front of you right now. So if you’re buzzing with anxiety, and you’re worrying or your head starting to squirrel, and I get those moments, as soon as I can, like recognize it, I start moving my body. And it’s so interesting, I bought this before, but I have a rebounder. So there’s little mini trampolines and we have a rule in our house. Now every time you pass the rebounder, you do at least 100 jumps. And like I’ll go rebound, I’ll go outside for a fresh air and a walk and we’ll walk our dog. And the third is that with the move your body is like I’ll get creative. So like there’s a lot of free resources out there. And you can choose your pick, Pilates yoga, bodyweight exercises, like get an app, whatever, do something even if it’s for five minutes and get it out of your system run up and down your stairs, move your body. And then I would say the last thing is I try to eat as whole as possible. People always say like eat your vegetables. But scientifically, I will tell you that dark greens actually are the antioxidants that you need for relieving stress. So not only is it just like eat your vegetables, eat green leafy, dark green, leafy vegetables, if you can get it and or anything green, because the nutrients that are in it actually helps to lower your stress so much to my husband’s demise. Or like to his chagrin, we are eating lots of leafy green vegetables. He hates it, but like we’re doing it. And I’ll say Protip too, if you can get it, if you can handle the texture because some people don’t like it, is seaweed. So seaweed has so many nutrients, vitamins and minerals that is restorative to the body. But it also cleanses your blood. So whether or not you are ill, whatever that is like right now, we all need some detoxing because our body’s just like full of all the chips and the junk that we’re eating and the stress and so whether that’s dry form, you can make a soup, you can make instant versions of seaweed, whatever that is. I mean talk about dark green. I’m going to tell you that that stuff’s going to really help reset you.

54:52

TAMAR: Awesome. Yeah, I like that mindset, a move in monty.

54:57

TERESA KWON: I love it.

TAMAR: Yeah. Cool. Cool. Amazing. Well, if you have maybe I don’t know a 30 second advice for anybody here, I would love to hear it.

55:09

TERESA KWON: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Connect. I would say connect. And when you’re connecting get real. I feel like there’s some people connecting right now who are still doing this schmoozing networking thing. And I’m like, guess what other people and not just me are going to see right through it. Yeah right now what’s real, what’s truly real and what’s truly the most important is what’s going to help you write this and be strong through the whole time. So yeah, authenticity all the way and what’s real and connect, connect, connect.

55:51

TAMAR: Cool, awesome. Yeah, I really like that. I also think that it’s funny, in terms of connection, try to crave the things that you might not necessarily like, I hate being on the phone. But I will say that because of where we are now I actually appreciate getting a phone call. It’s very weird. It’s really like you said, the world is changing. And I completely see that

56:11

TERESA KWON: Hmm. We do need or maybe to meet each other. So we’re being taught, we’re being reminded. . .

TAMAR: To come back to our roots in a very unusual way.

56:22

TERESA KWON: Exactly.

TAMAR: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Teresa. I really, really appreciate you taking the time.

TERESA KWON: Thank you so much for having me. And I do hope anything I shared is going to be of help and yeah, you guys buckle up. This is not something that’s going away before Easter or the end of the month. This is where the society has changed as we know it.