The Conversation Factory

Today my guest is Yehong Zhu, the founder and CEO of Zette.

We discuss three key layers of conversation design:

+ The conversation with yourself - even with so many companies founded…why not me?

+ The importance of community, community building and hosting as an integral part of staying sane, informed and productive as a founder.

+ The broader, cultural conversation - how does a founder design the conversation around why does this company matter? Shaping this narrative arc can help you connect your company's mission to the mission of potential funders and advisors

Prior to starting Zette, she worked as a journalist at Forbes Magazine, where she reported on business, market and technology trends. She also worked as a product manager at Twitter on two consumer teams—the Tweets team in San Francisco and the Events team in London—where she shipped features on desktop, mobile web, iOS, and Android to 330M users globally. She graduated from Harvard College in 2018 with a degree in philosophy and government.

Be sure to check out my conversation with Michael Bervell about his "Conversation Onion" model that we reference in the conversation.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Playing Nice with Paywalls

Zette

In this conversation, I dive into the nuances of co-founder relationships with Clarity.so co-founders Richie Bonilla, CEO and Eni Jaupi, CTO.

Clarity.so is a y-combinator funded startup that has built a groundbreaking DAO contribution platform. DAO stands for Decentralized, Autonomous Organization, which you should totally google if you want to know more.

While Clarity isn't a DAO, you can see how the radical transparency that is at the heart and spirit of the cryptocurrency movement is also at the core of Richie and Eni's relationship. I mean, it's also the name of the company!

Like a few of the other conscious co-founder interviews I've been doing, these two co-founders prototyped their working relationship before jumping into their company together, which helped them build a foundation of trust and respect.

They also talked a lot. Like A LOT before even starting the company. Starting with a few times a week, they gradually transitioned to talking for at least an hour, daily, for a year.

What this conversation re-established for me was that it's important to have agenda-ed conversations, and it's also very important to have stream-of-consciousness, unagendaed conversations, too. Generally speaking, we're great at structure, and less good at making space for wondering and wandering. For more on the power of wondering and wandering, make sure to check out my interview with Natalie Nixon.

Be sure to check out my conversation with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist, on how they connected through shared communities and learned how each other really worked through real-world, previous projects.

You may also enjoy my interview with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create, where we unpack how they managed their working relationship.

And if you really want to dive deep into the idea of being a conscious co-founder, make sure to check out my conversation with my friend Doug Erwin, the Senior Vice President of Entrepreneurial Development at EDAWN, the Economic Development Authority of Western Nevada.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Clarity.so

In this conversation, I sat down with my friend Doug Erwin, the Senior Vice President of Entrepreneurial Development at EDAWN, the Economic Development Authority of Western Nevada.

Doug is a former serial entrepreneur turned economic developer and executive coach, and he's committed to growing Northern Nevada's startup and technology ecosystem. His community work has helped change the perception of Reno and lay the foundation for future generations of entrepreneurs to thrive in the region. Doug is proud to support entrepreneurs as they embark upon their own journeys.

Doug shares, with great clarity, vulnerability and humility, his entrepreneurial journey and some key lessons he's learned along the way.

I invited Doug to have a conversation with me about what it might mean to be a conscious cofounder, given Doug's personal work on mindfulness. Towards the end of the conversation, we arrive at the idea that we are our own most important cofounder - the conversations we have with ourselves will either lead us to lean into or turn away from challenging conversations with our cofounders. And with the lens of Triple Loop Learning, we can start to create better cofounder relationships, not just with better contracts and financial structures, but from our way of being.

The basic metaphor is this: Work is a relationship. And relationships are made of conversations.

And you can hear this in Doug's description of a company as a "rebound startup" or talking about startups like a marriage.

And just like in personal relationships, sometimes, as Doug says, people want to turn away from the discomfort of having difficult conversations.

Doug mentioned research about splits among founders and how it related to the future success of the company. I did a bit of digging and... It's counter-intuitive, that a startup with equal distributions is a red flag to investors, and that such a company is more likely to fail.

Doug suggests that unequal distributions are proof that the founders have had some hard conversations - which is a key skill in work and life.

However, roughly three out of four startups decide to split the business equally when they start up.

One of the main issues with this approach isn't a question of HOW to make the split, but WHEN. A 2016 HBR article suggests that founders should wait to split shares until later, co-creating rules to determine the value of various contributions. (I recommend the book Slicing the Pie!).

The HBR authors suggest that "teams that negotiate longer are more likely to decide on an unequal split: the harder you look, the more likely you are to discover important differences. More generally, [they] argue that if cofounders haven't learned something surprising about each other from their dialogue, they probably haven't engaged in a serious enough discussion yet."

The HBR article suggests that a hastily created equal split will sour over time - the percentage of founders who are unhappy with their split increases by 2.5x as their startups mature. That discontent can lead to rapid turnover, which can be problematic.

Another study, led by Professor David Noack, Executive Director of the Hall Global Entrepreneurship Center at the Goddard School of Business and Economics at Utah's Weber State University suggests that an equal split, especially in early-stage companies, has another unexpected effect - making it unclear who's driving the bus. According to Professor Noack's research, if no one feels that they have ownership and responsibility, no one takes the wheel, which has a real effect:

Companies with an unequal split were 21.7% more likely than other firms to be up and running a year later.

And just like in a marriage, having a "pre-nup" conversation can be awkward, even when people know the data about divorce.

While it's uncomfortable to do so, hosting a conversation to explore all the negative scenarios that might occur in the future, with corresponding actions to help avoid them, can help founders avoid headaches later on…and increase startups' chances of success.

This is a conversation worth listening to…And I'm excited to share it with you!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

EDAWN - Startup Reno

Growth Pioneers Podcast

I first met Dr. Paul Browde as part of a multi-month intensive men's work program we were both part of. We were just about to break out into a few parallel sessions about various elements of running men's groups when Paul raised his hand and said something to the effect of "would it be useful to have a breakout session about our personal narratives and how we use them to lead?"

I watched as the heads of 40+ men swiveled to focus on this one unassuming gentleman and witnessed nearly half of the group switch over from whatever session they were planning on going to and instead, go to sit around Paul to listen to him tell his story and share his wisdom about how to share our own stories. That's the power of story!

Paul is a doctor of psychiatry and a TedX speaker. He has shared the stage with luminaries like Esther Perel, has taught Narrative Medicine at Columbia University, and co-founded a storytelling company called Narativ.

Paul has some profound wisdom to share about how to become aware of a different type of story - the stories that tell us, as well as the power of sharing our own stories, and examining the stories we tell about ourselves to ourselves and to others.

As Paul writes on his site:

We are born in connection, we are wired for connection, and it is through connection that we heal and experience our true aliveness.

I have always felt that stories can be the most powerful elements of communication - indeed, they are the thread that holds together each and every conversation.

Stories are how we connect, heal and come alive.

Listen onward to learn about Paul's mental models of how to become a space for others to share their stories - to shape your listening as a vessel, a bowl, to receive stories generously.

Narrative is powerful medicine that we can give to ourselves and to the people around us.

Enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Paul Browde: Healing through connection

The Power of Two: How Listening Shapes Storytelling

Two Twosomes, Not a Script in Sight

The Masculinity Paradox: Warmup with Paul Browde - Sessions Live by Ester Perel

How do you make a friend?

How do you become lovers with someone?

How do you become business partners?

In RomComs, there's a "meet-cute"...the hilarious and unlikely way two people in this topsy-turvy mixed-up world collide and fall madly, rapidly in love.

In the real world, taking time and gradually testing, trying and yes, prototyping a relationship is ideal. In love, we call it dating. There's no good word for "friend-dating", especially when you're doing it with someone of the same sex.

And with founding a company…where does the conversation start?

In this conversation, I sit down with Jane Portman and Benedikt Deicke, co-founders of Userlist, on how they connected through shared communities, and learned how each other really worked through real-world, previous projects.

They also share their insights on setting the stage for both a long-term vision for building a company AND for a possible exit from a partnership through thoughtful conversations.

Userlist is a tool for sending behavior-based messages to SaaS customers and recently completed a pre-seed round with 21 angel inventors.

Benedikt is a software engineer from Germany who loves to plan, build, and grow web applications. He co-hosts the Slow And Steady Podcast and organizes the Femto Conference, a tiny conference for self-funded tech companies. Jane is a leading UI/UX consultant specializing in web application design, and has been the host and founder of the UI Breakfast podcast since 2014 (she kindly invited me to join her show in early 2022).

Enjoy my conversation with these two delightful co-founders as much as I did.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

UI Breakfast

Userlist

benediktdeicke.com

Better Done than Perfect podcast

Jane's Story: Turning Thirty: Story of My Life

Culture, Values, Operating Principles & More

Inspire, Not Instruct: How We Do User Onboarding at Userlist

Today I host a conversation with Carolyn Gregoire and Scott Barry Kaufman, the co-authors of the 2015 bestseller, Wired to Create. Their working title was "Messy Minds" and one of the core ideas of the book is just that - deeply creative folks can manage messiness, plow through paradox and move calmly through contradiction.

These capacities are also powerful tools for managing a creative relationship.

I'm doing a series of interviews with co-founders on how they design their conversations (ie, their broader relationship) and manage themselves and each other while building and running a company.

A book is a mini-company, and so when I met Carolyn through a friend, I thought she and Scott would be amazing folks to unpack how a high tolerance for dissonance, complexity, ambiguity, and chaos can help us make amazing things, together.

Creativity, making something new, isn't ever a clear linear progression towards the dream, the magical ideal goal. There's always iteration, recursion, re-invention…and being patient with the process, your creative partner and yourself - that last one is a truly powerful key.

One of my favorite insights was the idea of the importance of sensitivity and awareness of your own inner state and the willingness to take downtime…both to manage yourself, refuel and to trust that stepping back will always help - since constant production isn't possible!

One thing you'll hear over and over again is the complementarity and flow in a positive creative relationship: being able to feed back and forth between each other and also give and take, grounded in respect and admiration for each other's skills and contributions. This respect for the other's skills allows for a dramatic increase in output through parallel work, or relay-race style collaboration.

Make sure to check out Carolyn's other writing and book doula work at carolyngregoire.com and Scott's podcast, course, and his recent best-selling book, Transcend, at scottbarrykaufman.com.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

Carolyn Gregoire's website

Scott Barry Kaufman's website

Wired to Create, by Scott Barry Kaufman and Carolyn Gregoire

Trust the Process, by Shaun McNiff

The Messy Middle, by Scott Belsky

Origami: From Angelfish to Zen

I'm excited to share this rambling and wide-ranging conversation with Srinivas Rao. Srini is the host of The Unmistakable Creative Podcast, and has recorded over a thousand episodes with such luminaries as Danielle Laporte, Tim Ferriss, Seth Godin, and me! Srini describes his podcast as "If TEDTalks met Oprah". Srini has interviewed so many different types of folks, from bank robbers to billionaires. He also has a business degree from UC-Berkeley and an MBA from Pepperdine University.

We talk about podcast interviewing (meta, I know!) and we unpack a topic that's close to both of our hearts: creative output.

One of my early podcast episodes was with Sara Holoubek, CEO of Innovation Systems consulting firm Luminary Labs. Sara introduced me to the idea of having what she called an "Intelligence Engine'' - a process by which organizations turn insights into action and action into opportunities, not just every so often, but consistently and regularly. It's not a dissimilar idea from Jim Collins' "Flywheel effect" in that, ideally, you tune up your engine often, and even upgrade it when you need to.

One of my core beliefs is that conversations exist at different scales, and that they act in similar ways at these different scales. I also might take the idea of a conversation too far…in that I feel that any iterative, adaptive cycle is, in essence, a conversation.

So, Sara's Intelligence Engine is essential for a healthy, growing company's conversation with the world - after all, intelligence at the product and/or organizational innovation level requires a consistent cycle of making or creating new things, testing or trying those things out and reflecting on how it went, ie, harvesting insights. That's an innovation conversation, at scale.

That cycle is pretty much the same at the level of the individual. We all need to seek new input, make and try new things, and then reflect and inspect the results.

Serendipity Engine vs Intelligence Engines vs Curiosity Engines

As with organizational intelligence, individual intelligence engines need to have a balance of intention and wandering. We need to be actively seeking new insights and ideas that matter to us, while also being open and curious about the unexpected. So, having a curiosity engine, like my guest Glenn Fajardo suggested in our episode on connecting remote teams, is a powerful way to rev up your intelligence engine, for yourself, your team and your organization.

Managing the flow of input, insight, and output

If there is one key takeaway from this episode, it's that the open/explore/close // diverge/emerge/converge ARC of our own intelligence conversation is input-insight-output.

Srinivas' top tips for building your own personal intelligence engine:

• Limit your Input
• Diversify your input
• Read books, not articles (they've digested complexity already!)
• Use a networked tool to capture your smart notes (srivas recommends Mem.ai which I also use!)
• Reflect and Connect dots regularly

Monotask to reduce the cognitive costs of task switching (check out my friends at Caveday and use the code 1STMONTHONE to get month of community-based monotasking support for $1 or use TRYACAVE21 to get your first cave free)

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes, and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

The Unmistakable Creative podcasthttps://podcast.unmistakablecreative.com/

Sara Holoubek on Human Companies and Solving Problems that Matter

Three Systems Every Creator Needs to Build by Srinivas Rao

You're Not Listening by Kate Murphy

The Life-Changing Science of Detecting Bullshit

Effortless Output in Roam course by Nat Eliason

How to Take Smart Notes by Sönke Ahrens

Maximize Your Output course by Srinivas Rao

This episode, Dr. Natalie Nixon and I dig into not just what it means to be creative, but also how leaders can create space for creativity and inspire it in their teams by letting in a little chaos. Dr. Nixon is the author of The Creativity Leap, a creativity strategist, and a highly sought-after keynote speaker. In this conversation, we dive into the ideas behind her book, what makes someone "a creative" (hint: it involves being deeply human), and how important humanity and creativity are to the future of work - Natalie and I agree that we should let our AI overlords do what they do best…and we humans should focus on what we do best - be creative and empathetic!

Natalie and I have three unexpected things in common: Ballroom dancing, an enthusiasm for Chaordic Thinking, and a deep sense that these two things are deeply intertwined!

Dancing looks to regularly resolve the dynamic tension between chaos and order, and find a state of flow between the two.

Chaordic Systems Thinking, if you're new to it, was first coined by Dee Hock, the founder and former CEO of VISA. He felt an ideal organization would balance order and control with disorder and openness, moving between them as it grew. Chaordic is just a made-up word combining chaos and order. I made a basic diagram of Chaordic systems Thinking for my book, Good Talk.

Total Order (O, on the right) is oppressive and stultifying. It also doesn't deal well with surprise or adapt to unpredictability. Total chaos (C, on the left) can mean a total collapse of a given system - as Natalie says, without any boundaries, what is it even!?!

A chaordic system moves between the poles of chaos and order, spiraling outward, growing and expanding as it does. A conversation can be chaordic, too, by the way.

For example, in a workshop, I sometimes feel the noise of collaboration and conversation rise, and I wonder, "Is this the moment to rein things in and move the conversation forward?" After all, sometimes that golden "aha" moment is just around the corner, just past my capacity to enjoy the chaos.

In the chaos and randomness, new patterns are sometimes found. Like in jazz, those new patterns are then played with, firmed up, made more orderly…until they get too controlled, boring or repetitive. Then the chaordic cycle swings back towards chaos.

This is why, as Natalie points out, good leaders are also good followers: they are open to changing environments, and take the best of what's emerging, reading their team and adapting to new situations.

Natalie and I also unpack the misunderstandings many folks, leaders included, have around the idea of being creative - one of most damaging being that the word doesn't (or can't) apply to them.

Natalie's ideas on creativity and flow are critical for the future of work, and something that every leader, whether you lead a team of artists or a team of accountants, needs to hear.

Enjoy the conversation!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Links

figure8thinking.com

The Creativity Leap by Natalie Nixon

Your "invisible work" is key to your most productive self by Natalie Nixon

The Extended Mind by Annie Murphy Paul

There is Confusion by Jessie Redmon Fauset

How to Get Filthy Rich in Rising Asia by Mohsin Hamid

Bright Lights, Big City by Jay McInerney

Sand Talk by Tyson Yunkaporta

Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World, interview with Tyson Yunkaporta

I'm thrilled to be able to share this conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones with you! Carrie is the co-author of Building Brand Communities, with Charles Vogl, and she's kind of a big deal in the community-building world. She's also an alum of the facilitation masterclass and a friend.

This is Part Three of a Three-part, wide-ranging conversation. You can enjoy this conversation even if you haven't listened to parts one and two, but you can find the link to them here.

Today, We explore a topic of great importance and impact - how to make a creative partnership work…something I am thinking of as being a "Conscious Cofounder".

Carrie reflects on the journey she took in creating her book with her co-author, as well as sharing her lessons learned along the way about helping a partnership ride out the inevitable dips and bumps that happen along the way.

Enjoy the conversation as much as I did!

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that's an affiliate link, so I'll get $10 too!

Links

Communities are Conversations parts 1 and 2

Carrie's Website

Podcast episode: Being a Beginner is Often the Key We Need for Empathy and Creativity

Building Brand Communities, by Carrie Melissa Jones and Charles H. Vogl

The Power of Ritual with Casper ter Kuile

How do you turn a question, a problem, or just a list of needs, into an agenda? At the close of a recent cohort of the facilitation masterclass, the participants were still sitting with some big questions. Which is good, because that's what the closing session is for! But I felt that some of these questions were too big for one conversation. So, I invited four alums of the facilitation masterclass to come together and share some thoughts on a fundamental challenge: turning a question into a conversation, an agenda and an arc.

I'm joined by

Erica O'Donnell, a hybrid professional working at the intersection of design thinking, strategy, facilitation, and innovation,

Kyle Pearce, a leader in collaborative change with an extensive background in the health and social services sector.

Frankie Iturbe, a Program Manager at Newsela, a K12 EdTech company

And Kate Farnady, Director, Chief of Staff, Strategic Technologies at Autodesk, and also the community coordinator for the Conversation Factory Insiders's Group!

We only scratched the surface, but there's lots of goodness in here.

Just a few of the things we discussed:

• How stated goals may not always have the whole group aligned with them, and what to do about it.
• Sharing responsibility for the agenda and outcome with stakeholders and session attendees
• How good insights can sometimes arise even in spite of (or perhaps because of) chaos
• Different approaches to facilitating agendas around messy goals and questions

If you want to dive deeper, check out my course on the 9Ps of meeting planning. I'd also recommend signing up for the conversation factory insiders group...we ran another deep dive on this question, reflecting on the question "why do I need an agenda?" and sharing our responses together. You can join here and check out that session as a subscriber here.

Head over to theconversationfactory.com/listen for full episode transcripts, links, show notes and more key quotes and ideas. You can also head over there and become a monthly supporter of the show for as little as $8 a month. You'll get complimentary access to exclusive workshops and resources that I only share with this circle of facilitators and leaders.

Also: I use and love REV for the accurate transcripts they make for me...it makes making my podcast notes and essays more meaningful and insightful. I love reading the transcript and listening to the session at the same time….it really gets the conversation into my brain!

I also use the automated transcription feature for my coaching clients to help them get maximum value from our sessions.

Head over to http://bit.ly/tryrev10off to get $10 off your first order. In full transparency, that's an affiliate link, so I'll get $10 too!

Links

Kate on LinkedIn

Frankie on LinkedIn

Erica on LinkedIn

Good Seed Digital

Think: Act Consulting