Improving pastoral health by dealing well with CONFLICT
Unlock the secrets to navigating the intricate world of intrapersonal conflict with insights to promote pastor health from Rev. Geniese Stanford, a former business professional turned pastor, who joins me on the Crabby Pastor podcast.
We'll explore how recognizing the gap between current experiences and desired outcomes can turn conflict into a powerful source of energy for growth and change, even in the simplest scenarios—like deciding between a beloved cup of coffee and timely meeting attendance.
Discover how her journey through traditional conflict resolution in church settings led her to the transformative "Leading Out of Drama" framework and Dr. Nate Regier's "Conflict Without Casualties."
Tools and connections to prevent pastor burnout and dealing effectively with internal conflict, and other conflict:
Compassionate Accountability book
Conflict without Casualties audiobook
Self-Compassion Test
Email:
[email protected] to connect with Rev. Geniese Stanford.
Rev. Geniese Stanford is certified by Next Element Consulting, LLC ("NE") to provide training, coaching and consulting services relating to its Leading Out of Drama® methodology, the intellectual property rights to which are held by NE.
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Transcript
Hey there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Krabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time. So we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the Krabby Pastor. Well, hey there, this is Margie Bryce with CraPastor Pastor podcast. Notice, I say Margie Bryce with the Krabby Pastor. That is distinct and different from Margie Bryce with the Krabby Pastor. That is distinct and different from Margie Bryce is the Krabby Pastor. Just making that point clear, for I don't know why, but I just felt like it today. So I am here, we're going to have a very conflicted episode. I just want to tell you upfront, because we're going to talk about conflict, and actually what we're going to talk about is a specific kind of conflict which is intrapersonal, that's I-N-T-R-A personal.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 1:30
So I have here with me let Janice tell us a bit about who she is and what she does and a bit about her interest in conflict. Okay, my background is I was in business for 19 years Last stint was with IBM, answered the call into ministry and pastored United Methodist churches for 20 years and I recently moved to the Northeast and while I was a pastor I became interested in conflict and how to do it better.Margie: 1:52
That's interesting, that that evolved.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 1:54
Then I'm just saying yes, because yes, and I never felt like I could deal with the conflict in a healthy way. And so I sought out training and ways to educate myself and try to learn new skills and I finally found what I thought really fit me and it's called Leading Out of Drama. And I started by reading a book Compassionate it's conflict without casualties, and it's based on this idea of compassionate accountability and I'm going to talk more about that in a few minutes. And so I really sought out. The conflict in the church bothered me because we never seemed to settle it and certainly didn't settle it in healthy ways and it really holds churches back from accomplishing their mission. And so, while I was serving as a pastor, that's really what drove me to be interested in it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 2:53
And then I found what I felt was a really good plan, and I had been trained at the Lombard Peace Center in mediation and that kind of conflict resolution in mediation and that kind of conflict resolution.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 3:07
And what I found and what I really wanted was something to transform conflict into productive, into something that produced a good result, wasn't just something, because in mediation and in negotiation and common problem solving or problem resolution, each party usually has to give up something because you come to an, you know you come to an agreement about what you're going to give up and that's the end result.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 3:30
And I didn't like the idea of having to give up something because I think when there's a conflict it probably arises out of real especially in the church real concern about something, and so I felt it was important to hear that concern. But I didn't have the skills and I didn't know how to do it. So I had done some training on process communication with Next Element, which is a firm headquartered in Kansas. That's where I was serving churches and it was all about understanding how people communicate and what that tells you about the best way to communicate with them. And at the same time, nate Regeer, who's the CEO, was writing this book, conflict Without Casualties, and I became very interested and I actually ended up being on the launch team for that book and that really started me down this path of understanding conflict in a new way, writing me down this path of understanding conflict in a new way. And so the way I define conflict, or the way that we define conflict, is the gap between what I'm experiencing and what I want to experience.Margie: 4:38
Oh, okay, say that again.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 4:42
Okay, conflict is the gap between what I'm experiencing, currently experiencing, and what I want to experience. And here's a really easy example. Okay, so let's say that I'm on the way to work, if I work for a church. I'm on my way to the church and I have a meeting and I realize, as I'm leaving the house, I did not have that last cup of coffee that I really wanted. So I think, oh good, there's Starbucks on my way to the church, I'll just drive through and I can still get to the church on time. And I drive up to Starbucks and I see 10 cars in the drive through. All right, what am I experiencing? I really want coffee.Margie: 5:24
If you're coffee deprived, you're pretty cheesed at the long line.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 5:28
Oh yeah, I'm really irritated and so I see I want coffee. I see this 10 car line, I'm like, okay, the dilemma, so the conflict is do I get the coffee that I want or do I show up to the meeting on time? I can't have both Right. That's internal conflict. It's the gap between what I want or what I'm currently experiencing, which is I want coffee, and what I want to experience. I want coffee, but there's a gap. I can't get it in time to make my meeting, so I have to make that trade off. So that's internal conflict. It's only conflict that involves me.Margie: 6:09
Okay, so that's the same internal conflict. Would that be another way to say intrapersonal?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 6:16
Internal conflict is intrapersonal meaning inside myself.Margie: 6:20
So it's me, myself and I, that merry threesome, there having conflict, that's right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 6:27
With every conflict there's a decision point, right, am I going to? How am I going to address that gap? Because I'm going to address it one way or the other and that's something that I have to decide in the moment. In this example and this applies to all kinds of conflicts I mean that's a simple everyday conflict that we all have and we pretty much know how to handle those, and it might it might affect my day for a little while, but eventually I'm okay and you know, I figure out a way to solve it. Maybe I make coffee at the church, or maybe I, after that first meeting, I go get my Starbucks. I mean, there's lots of different ways to solve it. Maybe I make coffee at the church, or maybe I, after that first meeting, I go get my Starbucks. I mean, there's lots of different ways to solve it.Margie: 7:09
Or maybe you go to get in line, get the coffee and be late. Forgiveness, that's true Because they would want you there with coffee rather than without.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 7:20
That's very true, because interpersonal conflict can turn to interpersonal conflict?Margie: 7:27
Yes, and that, I think, is the issue. I was really fascinated. We talked I actually met Janice through the ministerial coaching initiative that is out of Point Loma, nazarene. It's not just Nazarene, it's a more broad base any pastors and maybe I'll stick the link in the show notes but we met and connected on there and you know we can have wonderful chats right, but along the way, you know we were talking about how this internal conflict can show up then in the church environment for the ministry leader and how that can impact. Can you say more on that?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 8:12
Yeah. So let's take it to to a how intrapersonal conflict shows up in conflict with others, and we don't have to be church specific, but we can be Really. The whole focus of intrapersonal is what's going on inside me. So with church conflict, I as a pastor always felt uncomfortable and a sense of this is a church. What I've learned is that conflict is natural and normal and you cannot make progress without conflict. Because if I'm just satisfied with how things all are, which is unrealistic, but if that's what I'm telling myself, then I am not motivated to do anything about it. To do anything about it. So the gap is actually can be looked at as motivation.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 9:08
Conflict actually can be positive if I know how to navigate it and how to use the energy. So conflict is basically energy. That gap is filled with energy. So what I'm experiencing and what I want to experience that gap, that's energy. And in the case of the coffee, I use that energy first to decide what I'm gonna do about it and then to deal with how I decided to deal with it. So I might use that energy in a positive way. I might just say you know, I can do without the coffee, I'm gonna be on time for my meeting and I'm not going to let not having coffee affect me, and that's a choice I make. So there's energy in that gap and I can choose how to use that energy and if I use it positively, I transform it into positive, then that's how positive change can occur.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 9:59
If I allow that energy to be used negatively, that's called drama. Oh, and drama is not only an energy vampire, it's a vampire to getting anything done. And drama shows up internally as well as externally, because however we are feeling internally can affect how we react and how we interact with other people. So it's important to notice, to kind of do a scan of myself on a regular basis to see where am I experiencing conflict within myself? That's really what intra-personal conflict is about is where does the conflict exist within me, what am I experiencing and how do I want to experience something differently? And, for example, we all know that health, both mental and physical health, really contributes to the status of a pastor's. Health really contributes to how effective they can be as a pastor. Yeah To that.Margie: 11:02
That's kind of my shtick right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 11:10
That's right, and so if I am in poor health because of the choices I make, then I have to decide if I'm going to do anything about that. I mean, I can just stay in my bubble of poor health and not do anything about it, and and I will. For me, for example, if I'm in poor health or I'm not taking care of myself, there's a certain angst that builds up, and that's the intrapersonal conflict, and that angst steals energy from everything else, because I'm using it, I'm using the energy that I have, and it's it's negative energy and it pulls me down because I'm either self critical oh, you're just. You know you need to go exercise, I don't feel like exercising. It's that internal conversation I have. You know, if you want to get healthy, you need to go exercise.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 12:00
Yeah, I know that, but this is self talk. But I really don't feel like exercising. Yeah, I know that, but this is self-talk, but I and helps you identify the gaps. So if you catch yourself saying that's just terrible. You know about something, a decision you're making or something you don't do, and you start thinking about how terrible you feel about that, you've just uncovered an internal conflict that you probably need to address. You've just uncovered an internal conflict that you probably need to address. I need to, whatever the conflict is, whatever I'm currently experiencing, that is not what.Margie: 12:59
I want to experience.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 12:59
I, for one, have a vision of what I want to be, experiencing, how I want to be, and when I'm not, that I'm not at my best, and so there's a gap. What I'm currently experiencing is I am not exercising enough. Right, I'm not exercising enough and I can. There's what we call internal myths about ourselves and about others, and my myth is I'm not a good person because I'm not exercising and I'm overweight and so therefore, and it, it, it can lock me down, it can zap all my energy. So a really important part in uncovering intra, this internal conflict, is to use a simple tool called I want, because I want, I want, and so it's because, okay, because. And so it goes like this, and it's really a personal affirmation. Self-affirmation is so important Anytime we're talking about interpersonal conflict or just growing in our personhood. So the positive affirmation is I want. So I'm going to define the gap. So here's what I'm experiencing I want to experience this.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 14:11
So for me, I have grandkids right now, I want to be able to play longer in the backyard with my grandson. There's a gap I'm not able to do that right now. I can play a short time, but I don't have the stamina to play a long time. So I want and why do I want to spend more time with my grandson in the backyard. That's where the because. So I want X, y, z, because, well, I want to have more stamina and play longer with my grandson in the backyard. Because it's great bonding time with him. It's a lot of fun. I love being with him and with the family. I love being outside, and I don't feel good when I have to cut it short because I don't have the stamina. So, because, because, because, because I don't have the stamina, because I'm not in good shape, I don't. The outcome is I don't get what I really want, which is a longer time to play with my grandson in the backyard.Margie: 15:16
It can be as simple as that.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 15:18
But the important thing is to say I want, because of all the things it does. It makes me closer to my grandson. It's a lot of fun. I'm building up, you know, positive feelings with him. I'm showing up in his life, all those different things. It's giving me great joy.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 15:38
And so there's a gap, though, because I want to be able to play as long as he wants to, but I'm not physically able, and so I have to decide am I going to do something about that gap? Is the gap strong enough? Is my desire to be different strong enough? And that's where negative myths can come in. I can have negative self-talk that says you've been here before, you always said you wanted to be in better shape, but you just don't do it. And so then my answer back is I want to increase my stamina so I can get this result of being with my grandson more.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 16:23
Because of all the reasons, I return to that, and then I say okay, then I hold myself accountable. What am I willing to commit to? So there's this. It's defining the conflict, defining the gap, defining what I want instead of the gap. So I define what I'm currently experiencing. I define what I want to experience, I of the gap. So I define what I'm currently experiencing, I define what I want to experience. I see the gap, then I decide what I'm going to do about the gap.Margie: 16:51
Right, this speaks a lot a lot, a lot to and I've talked to Dr Chris Adams about this before. There's a podcast about that very thing the resistance to doing self-care and taking it really serious. Because if you talk to us about, if you have all this internal conflict going on whether it's due to self-care or some other issues how that impacts, how you show up to other people.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 17:28
Well, and if I have these unresolved conflicts number one, if I haven't named them, if I haven't really spent the time to look deeply in myself and know what my internal conflicts are, then it shows up in ways that I can't even detect. Right it just, it colors my thinking, because it can result in low self, self what am I trying to say? Self-affirmation. It can result in I'm more edgy, it can result in lack of satisfaction, and so I bring all of that into relationship.Margie: 18:02
You can be.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 18:02
you can be crabby bring all of that into relationship. You can be crabby, crabby. That pretty much defines it. I mean, if I'm really, if I have a real sizable conflict going on interpersonal conflict I'm really unhappy with where I am. That that unhappiness is going to carry over and it's going to show up in conflict with other people. Sure, sure, because I'm not my best self.Margie: 18:25
Sure, and this kind of very thing is something that we're having a coach, which we both are but having a coach can be very helpful, help you to unravel some of the internal conflict that you have going on and then ask that question what am I willing to do about this? I mean, what do we say about ourselves if we aren't willing? Because this happens? You know, I mean the Apostle Paul. I keep thinking about this because I have to do a presentation in October at the Society of Professors of Christian Ministry, and I'm thinking about the Apostle Paul in this section where he says you know, what I want to do, I don't do, and what I that's this is a bad paraphrase here that I'm doing, but you kind of. I've read that and I love that because I thought, oh, how many of us are there? All of us, I think.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 19:22
That is self-talk of internal conflict all of us.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 19:25
I think that is self-talk of internal conflict. Yes, what I want to do, I do, and what I don't want to do, I do. Yeah, what's up with that? I know? Well, you've got an internal conflict and it's time to sit down and say I want X Y Z because X Y Z and look at that and decide, okay, this is what I'm going to do about it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 19:42
But more than that, what this internal, unresolved conflict will do is it affects my self-confidence. It affects how I show up around other people, because if I feel like I'm not even taking care of myself, how can I possibly take care of someone else? And I think that's the missing thing for a lot of pastors is we put all of our energy into caring for other people and we forget that we really have to. We need a healthy core to be able to minister, and so we got to work on ourselves. Yeah, that can't stop us from continuing to serve as a pastor, but we need to. We need to up our, our self-talk with self-affirmation and we need to give ourselves self-compassion.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 20:31
I'm just recently connected with this idea of self-compassion. And how do I, when, when I make a commitment to myself to do something and then I don't follow through. I need to have self-compassion about that, not criticize myself too much, not decide, not have self-talk of I'm just a failure, I can't get anything done, blah, blah, blah. That's not going to help. I need to have self-compassion, so I need to say okay, what's in my way, again, identifying that gap. There's a gap in what I'm experiencing, what I want to experience what's?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 21:11
in my way Right now. What's in my?Margie: 21:12
way are the cider donuts on the counter that my husband had he got. We went to a cider mill and he got sick. He goes. Look, it's only six on here. I can have one a day for the next six days. Well, you know, I don't know, A lot of people aren't excited about those plain cider donuts, but you know, I had one this morning and I thought what I need to do is crumble these up, Put them in the garbage. I need to do, or maybe put him in a lockbox that only he has the code for something, Cause I, you know, I refuse to do the. Oh, I'm a terrible person because I ate this donut once a year. You know what I mean. You gotta be real.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 21:58
Yeah, well, and and that's the, that's the self-talk, that's the negative or positive self-talk. And you know you just had. You just described an internal conflict, perfectly Right. I see, the cider donut, I really want it, but I know it's not good for me, but what am I going to do about it? Or the second or third cider donut that you want, because the first one was so good.Margie: 22:21
I know it can go. It can go like that, and then there you are, you're, you're off to the right and then we have.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 22:29
Then we have the negative self-talk about why did I do that, the regret right. So internal conflict can show up in a lot of ways. It can show up as regret, and if I'm feeling regret about something, then I probably had a gap between what I experienced and what I wanted to experience. And so part of this journey of identifying internal conflict is to really do some self-examination about what do I want for my life in this time and in this place, for my life in this time and in this place and a coach can be very helpful in that, a therapist can be very helpful in that. Or we can do it on our own, and that's I love journaling for that reason, because I can do all the self-talk I need to in a journal, I can write down whatever train of thought is and I can go back and I can see where the gaps are existing and where I'm experiencing conflict and didn't realize it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 23:29
Because part of the big leap is to identify the gaps, because I have to decide what I want, what do I really want, and then I can identify how far I am from what I really want and then pursue it. And then pursue it and take small steps and how this affects conflict with others is if we're in a place where we don't feel satisfied with ourself, we're unhappy with ourself. We're already experiencing a bunch of satisfied with ourselves. We're unhappy with ourselves. We're already experiencing a bunch of gaps within ourselves. My self-talk can turn negative. I can start to have all kinds of doubts about my ability or my other reaction can be as I lock in. I take a very firm position and I'm not willing to move off of it because I need something that's solid and stable. So give me an example of that.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 24:32
Okay. So let's say that somebody comes up to you at church and and says we really need to change the time of worship. It's just not working for our young families. We need to change the time of worship. It's just not working for our young families, we need to change the time of worship. And I've told you about this 10 times.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 24:49
Okay, in that moment, where am I on my scale? You know, I'm experiencing something, probably not what I wanted to experience. Do I have the capacity to respond in a way and I teach this, I do training for this to respond in a healthy way, even when I'm low on my own capacity. And so, in the moment, how do I answer that without creating greater conflict? I mean, I can just say, look, we're not going to change worship time and I walk away. Well, that doesn't help. That person is going to go off feeling unheard and probably angrier because I didn't take their concern seriously, and so I teach their skills. So let me step back for a minute and talk about roles we play in conflict, and this is internal as well as external. So roles we play in conflict One is victim.Margie: 25:54
We all like that one today. I think the culture reinforces that.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:00
Yeah, I think it does too, and I'm looking for validation from other sources instead of self-validation and self-compassion. And so a victim might give in. A victim might avoid conflict because they don't want to go there. Another role we play in and these are roles, this isn't who we are, these are roles we play. Another role we play is rescuer. I'm going to jump in and fix it. So somebody comes to me with a complaint, I'm going to tell them how to fix it right away. I'm going to jump in and give help where it's not offered, and I do that partly because it makes me feel good, and I have this myth that I believe I can make others feel good, which is a myth I can't Right.Margie: 26:47
I can't make other, and pastors are great fixers.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:52
Yes, and that's.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:53
We're probably playing a rescuer role a lot of that time.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 26:57
And the third role is so the persecutor is one who is self, what's the right word is the authority, and, like a persecutor might say, do this or else, so we can have internal persecutor right, that when I eat that second donut, that was stupid, that's an internal persecutor right. Or if somebody, like the example I used, somebody comes up and says we really need to change the time of worship, you don't have a clue, do you? We would probably never say it that directly, but that may be what we're thinking and it's going to come out in our communication, and so I can fall into the persecutor role often, because I feel trapped and I, you know, maybe he's the fifth person and maybe we've talked about changing worship times and we've been at an impasse. You know, he doesn't know what we've been talking about in meetings and maybe I'm so frustrated that I just say I'm not even going to consider it, and that's OK if that's really true, but said in a way that if I say it like that, it's going to immediately turn that person away.Margie: 28:19
Yeah, it certainly isn't what Jesus would say, is it? I don't think so.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 28:23
No, so those are roles we play, and we play all of the roles, but we have a dominant role. It isn't what Jesus would say, is it? I don't think so. No, right. So those are roles we play, and we play all of the roles, but we have a dominant role. And I have a tool called the Drama Resilience Assessment that defines those roles, that helps you identify what's your most frequent role and what is your least frequent role.Margie: 28:38
But we all play those roles in different circumstances, I'll have to get that link from you to put in the show notes. I know you already have it.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 28:46
The drama resilience assessment is only through a class that I teach, oh, okay.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 28:49
Okay, yeah, and it also. Then there's compassion skills that match up to the drama roles, and so the compassion skills are for victim openness about what I'm feeling, what I want, or it could be affirming what the other person is feeling or wanting, if this is interpersonal. So, for example, the compassion skill is I might say to the guy gosh, I hear you, this sounds really important to you, okay. So I've just addressed that. I hear him and that I see that it's important to him, or it wouldn't have brought it up to me. And then I move around. It's called the compassion cycle.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 29:31
So I move to the next step, which is resourcefulness. So I might say to him and it depends on, you know, part of this depends on me knowing exactly what I want and what I believe and what I hold firm to. So I might say to him you know we've been having conversations about that, we're going to have a meeting in a couple of weeks. If this happens to be going on, and I'd love to have your input before then, would you give me some ideas about your ideas about changing the worship time? And then we move to the next step in the same sentence, and we say and it's called the persistence role or compassion skill and I say, because that's my word that takes the resourcefulness and connects it to the persistence, and persistence is about setting boundaries or making commitments, and so I'd really like to have your ideas, because worship is really important to me and to this church and I'm committed to it being the very best worship that it possibly can be.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 30:43
And so then we return to that person and we let them respond, and so it's called the compassion cycle, and what it does is I will be able to recognize, after the training, I will be able to recognize if somebody's coming to me in a victim role or in a rescuer role, or in a persecutor role. I'll be able to tell Persecutor would sound like this this worship time stinks and I'm not coming back. That's a persecutor role, right, and that just tells me that's really, really, really important to this person and something's going on. They feel really strongly about this, and that's what I would say is wow, it sounds like you feel really strongly about this.Margie: 31:24
I really want to hear more about this, and that's what I would say is wow it sounds like you feel really strongly about this.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 31:26
I really want to hear more about this, because if it's if it's a church member, I'm not going to let that just sit there. Right? I really want to hear more about that. Now. It has to be sincere, right? Let's get together and set a time or whatever. And that's how I close that compassion cycle. So I'm using my compassion skills to respond to the conflict and the particular role they're in in the conflict. That's true internally too. Bringing it back to intrapersonal. So in that moment I am probably experiencing intrapersonal conflict too, and this is where being aware of self-talk is really important. So what's going on behind the scenes inside me? In that moment of conflict? Maybe I'm saying to myself I knew this was going to come up. I knew that you know why haven't I taken care of this before? Or, or I might feel trapped, like I have no idea what to say. This guy I don't know, you know who knows where I am? Oh no, not him again. Oh no, not him again yeah.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 32:36
Which which, if I pay attention to that, I might miss an opportunity to invite him to a different place, to a different way of seeing things. So every conflict is an opportunity to close that gap.Margie: 32:53
Well, isn't then also the oh no, not him again. I mean, that's kind of a victim response, absolutely On my, you know, on my end, like so if you say that and then you go oh no, now I'm behaving as if I'm the victim. How can I step into something better?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 33:12
Yeah, and in the moment that's where the compassion skills and the training really helps, Because in the moment I don't have time necessarily to think through all of that.Margie: 33:20
Right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 33:21
But if I know how to do it and I've practiced it and I've dealt with myself, so the same thing happens with myself. So I can, I can use the compassion cycle with myself. So back to the the. I want to play longer with my grandson, but I don't have the stamina and I'm not doing anything about it. So that's where I I say how I feel about it. I feel unsuccessful or I feel terrible, or I I feel like I'm missing something. And then I go to resourcefulness. So it openness is a lot about identifying feelings. Feelings and wants. Ooh, that yeah, and for some people that's hard. Let me give you a hint about that. There is out on the internet, there's a feeling wheel and it has every kind of feeling, and I grew up in a family that did not express feeling so I've had to turn to learning how to express feelings by using a feeling wheel.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 34:24
It's really, really important to label and to identify what we're feeling and be very specific. So I acknowledge what I'm feeling and then I think through resourcefulness Okay, how can I respond to this guy? That's not going to alienate him further. He's obviously experiencing a gap himself. I'm experiencing a gap because I'm uncomfortable, and so how can I? You know, I'm thinking to myself, how can I respond? In a resourceful way? Or for myself, I'm thinking, okay, what are my options? If I want to exercise, if I want to have more stamina, what are my options? That's resourceful, OK, so I could walk every day, I could start eating better. You know all my possibilities. That's the resourcefulness step.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 35:16
And then I make a commitment. That's the persistence step, so I can use the compassion cycle myself and it might be something that I work through through journaling over a period of time, depending on how big the conflict is, how much I really am motivated to address it. And so there are. There's understanding the drama role you're in and identifying the drama that you're experiencing. So that gap between what I want and what I'm currently experiencing, and if I let it take a negative bent, that's going to be drama. It's going to zap all my energy and I'm not going to have the energy to address it. So instead I make the decision, the choice to go to have self-compassion and the steps in self-compassion if I really want to do something about it. I mean I can just have self-compassion and say I'm not ready to do something about this yet and that's OK. And for the moment I've solved that conflict until the next time I go play and I have to stop and sit down.Margie: 36:22
Right, because I don't have the stamina.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 36:24
So then the conflict's back, and maybe this time I go play and I have to stop and sit down right Because I don't have the stamina. So then the conflict's back, and maybe this time I'm ready to address it, I'm ready to take steps, and so I apply the compassion cycle to myself, and I'm doing this preferably by journaling. But some people only want to do it thoughtfully. And part of the self-affirmation is and at the persistent stage is to say I will or I will not Right, and to write that down as an affirmation.Margie: 36:56
I will start walking every day, I will stop eating the donuts on the counter.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 37:03
I will stop eating the three donuts that I really want that are remaining on the counter. Yes, there are. That's satisfying, yeah, I know.Margie: 37:11
I've had two, I think not in one day, just for the record, but I'm done. But what about that? You know, self-compassion is great, you know, but at some point the rubber's got to hit the road. And, by the way, I want to say I love what you're talking about here because it is so practical. It's so practical and then it's very Christ-like approach as well, the compassion and the you know all of it. It has great promise and potential for ministry leaders dealing with both conflict within themselves and then understanding externally. And we'll for sure put a contact for you in the show notes if somebody wants to.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 38:00
Yeah, let me. Let me mention one more thing about compassion.Margie: 38:04
Because I have one last question too, but go ahead.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 38:06
OK. We often think compassion is just about empathy empathizing with somebody else or empathizing with ourself. But compassion in the, in the way that we see conflict, in the way we see really healthy conflict and leading out of drama, and so we look at compassion, returning to the Latin root, which means to struggle with. So compassion is to struggle with and that's what the compassion cycle allows us to do. We're struggling with the other person, not against. So I like to think about playing tennis. I love tennis, I don't play enough anymore, but I like to think about tennis when I'm thinking about struggling with or struggling against.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 38:48
So struggling against is our normal pattern. So if we're struggling against something, we're probably sitting, you know. If it's another person, we're probably. If we're seated at a table, we're probably seated apart from each other, opposite of each other, and that sets us up to struggle against right there. So, like tennis players, one's on one side, one's on the other side. If we then move and orient ourselves side by side, it opens up the possibility of struggling with. So if I were to go have coffee with this person at the very least if it was a square table I would sit one here and one here. I would not sit across from oh you would sit next to.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 39:30
I would sit next, yes, okay, and if it was a rectangle table, I would sit on one end, facing this way, and I, he and I would ask the other person sit there and I would turn slightly so that we're on the same side of the table. It's amazing what just that positional thing can do. It opens up possibilities, and so struggling with is a really important part of compassion. And when I'm addressing the intrapersonal, the internal conflict, struggling with is struggling with myself, right. Conflict Struggling with is struggling with myself, right. So I'm struggling with the part of myself that has self doubt and I'm struggling with the part of myself that has self compassion, and I'm allowing those two to struggle together. Does that make?Margie: 40:17
sense. Oh yeah, absolutely, Absolutely it does. I love this picture of compassion because there's a part of it where I go, okay, I'm going to say, all right, that's okay, that's okay, You're not a bad person for eating the donut, you know or whatever the issue is I'm, you know, going to give myself some compassion, but at some point you have to hold yourself accountable, and I guess that's where you're talking about the steps, where you say I'm ready to act, I'm going to fill in the blank. Can you talk some about the self accountability?Rev. Geniese Stanford: 40:51
component. It can be any food that we love, or it can be anything that we love. And so let's say, because I just went to a farm stand that had the best fresh right now up in New England it's cider donuts- See, this is what they are.Margie: 41:16
That's on my counter. So now you have compassion? Yes, I have.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 41:22
I love those things and so OK. So I have one donut and I'm allowing myself that and it's great, okay. And then I think, oh, I really want that other donut, I really really want that other donut. So I say to myself, okay, what, what? What are my options? I can eat the other donut, I can eat the other donut and walk more. I can eat the other donut and just accept that I overate it. You know, I'm allowing myself that privilege. And then the next time, what am I going to do? I'm allowing myself that privilege to eat the second donut because I will, because I want and I will. I'll walk longer, or I won't eat carbs for dinner, or I'll. Whatever I decide I'm going to do about it, or I might just give myself permission to have a treat, right?Margie: 42:21
So I rationalized this morning and said well, it is in the morning, I'm going to have more carb thing, it's better in the morning and I am going to kind of this CrossFit ish thing later in the day. So we're doing it. That's, that's what I said. But I think I'm at the place where I'm going but there's three more donuts on the counter. So I'm thinking now what I need to do is maybe I should have my husband take the donuts to work and he can have them one a day in his desk.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 42:54
So see, that's an option I know. So you identify. I am feeling like I want yet another donut. Yeah, and here are my options. I can go have that other donut. How am I going to feel after that? I can ask my husband to take them to work with him so that I don't eat it, or I can get busy doing something else so that I just avoid it. Right, and so those are all my options. Right, that's resourcefulness. And then I make my commitment. This is what I'm going to choose to do about that. Okay, and so that's that's really how. And you might have to go around a circle, around the compassion cycle, multiple times.Margie: 43:37
Yeah.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 43:37
We might, but the accountability piece, though, is that is where the rubber meets the road, you know.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 43:45
The third step. What commitment am I going to make to myself or what action am I committing to? Yeah and then that's where I think self-affirmation statements are really helpful and, you know, if we have a journal handy, we might write down what we're going to commit to, so that we have a visual reference. And I'm not beyond taking a sticky note and writing my self-affirmation on it and sticking it by the sack of donuts.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 44:16
So that as soon as I go to that that sack of donuts, I'm going to see my self-affirmation about I'm going to X, Y, Z and then I'm like, okay, that's, that's another choice I can make, right, I really think I want that other donut.Margie: 44:33
But that little sticky note there is reminding me Right.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 44:36
I see that sticky note. That's resourcefulness. I was thinking ahead and now I have a decision to make. So that's how that works Right. So I'm not sure I have I everything that? What do you have another question?Margie: 44:52
No, my last question was about that self accountability piece. I mean, you know you can't just keep being nice to yourself. Isn't that a horrible thing to say? You can't just? I mean you can, you can, because there's no sense in beating yourself up. You know, I've been there and done that, not just about donuts, but just in general. You know, if somebody comes up to you on Sunday and said that that sermon really fell flat, I mean that sets in motion a lot for ministry leaders and, like you said, you can get to the place where you're. Either you're going to enact some compassion towards yourself, but then come to. If you keep hearing those kinds of things, then what am I going to do about that? What am I going to commit to? And maybe they're correct, maybe they're not. I mean, everybody can grow in an area.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 45:47
Well, and that's where, that's where I enact the compassion cycle and I say to myself okay, I just heard feedback that was less than positive. That's a fact. Here's how I feel about that. I feel kind of yucky about that because I thought it was a good sermon. So what are my options? I can use a different lens. I can look at my sermon differently. I can. I can maybe have somebody listen to it ahead of time, or I can read my sermon with an eye towards if it's flat, or I evaluate gosh. I was low energy this morning because I didn't sleep enough.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 46:27
You didn't have your coffee. Right, you didn't have your coffee.Margie: 46:30
Right, I didn't have my coffee.Rev. Geniese Stanford: 46:32
And so what am I going to do about that the next time? So the self-compassion cycle, or the compassion cycle, kicks in Once you have these ideas. You don't have to be perfect at it. The whole idea is to identify what you're feeling and why, and to decide what your possibilities are to deal with that, and then make a commitment to either deal with it or not.Margie: 46:53
No, and all of this, what you're talking about, are tools that are going to help us to grow as people and ways that you can manage yourself, manage the conflict that you're experiencing and or manage, be better at managing yourself within conflict, external to yourself, when people bring stuff to you. So this is this has been extremely valuable and I'm going to put a contact in there, maybe your email in the show notes. So if people wanted to reach out to you for some training, you're probably available to do training for groups of ministry leaders or even church boards in how to identify what's going on, because churches are challenged right now. Still, you know, post COVID, who do we want to be? What do we want to do next? And you know, when anxiety rises, sometimes the thinking department goes basically in the toilet, for lack of a better word at the moment. But you know, and when people are feeling anxious, I think conflict stirs as well. Well, thank you very much, janice, for joining us and for giving us some really, really practical, practical skills for dealing with conflict, Thank you. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill?Margie: 48:34
This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 49:44
Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com. That's B-R-y-c-e margiebryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self assess and get a sense of where you're at. And there are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it.Margie: 50:51
And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at. Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.Margie: 52:05
But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.
