The Curious Catholic Podcast

We recently had an episode featuring a discussion with award-winning poet A. M. Juster. In it we discussed his new collection of poems, titled Wonder and Wrath, as well as the craft of poetry in general.

We'll continue this theme today as we get to know Presence: A Journal of Catholic Poetry, which, as the journal's title suggests, is an annual publication dedicated to poems written within the Catholic sacramental vision of the world, with all its breadth, depth, and universality.

We'll get to know the journal by speaking with its Editor-in-Chief Mary Ann B. Miller. In addition to editing Presence, Mary Ann is professor of English at Caldwell University in Caldwell, NJ, and editor of St. Peter's B-list: Contemporary Poems Inspired by the Saints published by Ave Maria Press. 

Links:

1. Presence: A Journal of Catholic Poetry
2. Presence on Instagram 
3. Mary Ann B. Miller, Editor-in-Chief of Presence
4. St. Peter's B-list: Contemporary Poems Inspired by the Saints, edited by Mary Ann B. Miller

As we look forward to the end of this week, we see Halloween, All Hallow's Eve, and I don't know about your neighborhood, but mine is marked by all sorts of spooky sights, decorations and what have you. It's become commonplace this time of year to conjure ghoulish scenes meant to give one a sense of the eerie, or fire the latent gothic imaginations of both young and the not so young. 

And what's a Catholic to think of all this? Some embrace it wholesale, though with little sense of its place in the Catholic imagination. Others reject out of hand seeing it as trading in the dark arts. And yet neither of these responses are adequate or satisfying. We can't ignore the whole of human experience and be authentically Catholic, and within that we have to have at least some account of the spooky, spectral, and potentially sinister things that go bump in the night. 

And so in this episode we'll look at the ways in which St. Augustine considered the demonic in his life and work. Helping us do so is Seamus O’Neill, who is Associate Professor of Ancient and Medieval Philosophy at The Memorial University of Newfoundland. His main philosophical interests are Ancient and Medieval Philosophy generally, Metaphysics, and the Philosophy of Religion. His current research deals with St. Augustine and other thinkers such as Plotinus, Boethius, St. Thomas Aquinas, and St. Bonaventure and their relation to the Neoplatonic tradition, specifically concerning the question of human and divine mediation. 

He is co-editor of Neoplatonic Demons and Angels and has published articles and book chapters on figures such as St. Augustine, Boethius, St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Dante, and on the history of Platonic thought, demonology, the problem of evil, and the relation between ancient and scholastic thought and contemporary philosophical trends. 

Currently, he is writing a book-length manuscript on the results of this research while working on the demonology of St. Thomas Aquinas and its philosophical import. 

1. Dr. Seamus O'Neill, Ph.D.
2. Neoplatonic Demons and Angels, co-edited by Seamus O'Neill

"The aim of poetry is to awaken us to a fuller sense of our own humanity in both its social and individual aspects. . . . Poetic language . . . is holistic and experiential. Poetry simultaneously addresses our intellect and our physical senses, our emotions, imagination, intuition, and memory without asking us to divide them."

-Dana Gioia, "Poetry as Enchantment"

This episode begins a short run devoted to poems and the poets that pen them. As I've confessed before recording with a few recent guests, I myself don't "speak poetry," that is, I don't have all the technical terminology or conceptual capacities as might a seasoned reader, teacher, or practitioner of the craft. Nonetheless, I do read poetry, and have always had an intuitive sense of its high worth. And there is something of an advantage to being a truly amateurish reader of the art form, namely, I'm not encumbered or weighed down with unnecessary and cumbersome jargon or analytical preoccupations. 

Also, without fail, these guests have communicated how poetry is meant for the many, how it should speak to everything in our experience from the mundane to the sacred, or even how within the mundane lies the sacred. 

And so, I'm very happy to introduce my guest for this episode, A. M. Juster, an award-winning and highly regarded poet, translator, and critic. His most recent books include John Milton's The Book of Elegies, Saint Aldhelm's Riddles, and Sleaze & Slander. His first book of original poetry, The Secret Language of Women, won the Richard Wilbur Award. And he has also won the Howard Nemerov Sonnet Award on three separate occasions. 

Juster has a new book of verse just recently published, titled Wonder and Wrath, from Paul Dry Book, which you can find by clicking through today's show notes. Here he is talking about what got him writing poetry.

Links

1. Wonder and Wrath by A. M. Juster
2. A. M. Juster's website
3. Saint Aldhelm's Riddles, translated by A. M. Juster
4. "Regard the Scuttlebutt as True" by Paul Mariani, First Things, June 2010. An essay revealing the dual lives of A. M. Juster, as well as providing an introduction to his poetry
5. "The Riddle of Why Literary Riddles are Overlooked" by A. M. Juster, Athenaeum Review, Summer 2020
6. "Poetry as Enchantment" by Dana Gioia

"I look up at your heavens, shaped by your fingers,
At the moon and the stars you set firm—
What are human beings that you spare a thought for them,
Or the child of Adam that you care for him?"

Psalm 8

This psalm is surely not the only time we find a biblical author marveling at the mystery of man. Wondering as to what exactly the human person is, and why it is that God the Creator would pay us a moment's notice. And surely it isn't just the authors of Sacred Scripture that have expressed their perplexity when considering what it is that we are; philosophers, poets, stand-up comics, all have ruminated over what exactly we are, why it is that we are so like the other animals, yet how it is also the case that there are aspects of our nature that are radically beyond these other creatures.

Addressing our nature, the Catechism of the Catholic Church phrases matters in this way:

"The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. . . . The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the 'form' of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature." (Nos. 362 and 365)

My guest today, on board to discuss all of this in expert fashion, is Thomas Ward. Tom is a professor of philosophy at Baylor University, and has degrees in Philosophy and Theology from UCLA and Oxford, respectively. 

His doctoral dissertation was written on the topic we discuss in this episode, namely, the thought of John Duns Scotus on the topic of hylomorphism, a conceptual framework that has informed much of Catholic thinking over the centuries on the nature of material reality, and the human being in particular. 

1. Tom's Website
2. Divine Ideas by Thomas M. Ward from Cambridge University Press
3. John Duns Scotus on Parts, Wholes, and Hylomorphism by Thomas M. Ward
4. Tom on Instagram
5. John Duns Scotus t-shirt designed by the Curious Catholic Podcast

"WHY DID THE INCARNATION OCCUR?" If you were to ask many a Christian this question you'd get the answer: because of sin. To redeem us from our sin. 

But what if sin had not been committed? Would we have Jesus? Many would say with St. Augustine: "If man had not sinned, the Son of Man would not have come." 

What if, though, contrary to the just mentioned answer, there is an alternative, more persuasive account? Such that we could say, God intended the Incarnation not first as a response to sin, but first to will the glory of the Incarnate Word, as a way of becoming most intimately united to His creation, in turn glorifying this creation, and that in light of this we might say: "yes," If Adam had not sinned the Son would have become Incarnate.

Guiding us through all of this today, especially as regards the thought of John Duns Scotus, but also Thomas Aquinas and quite a few others, is Justus Hunter, Assistant Professor of Church History at United Theological Seminary in Dayton, OH. He is the author of a recently released book that is the focus of today's episode, that volume being  If Adam Had Not Sinned: The Reason for the Incarnation from Anselm to Scotus.

1. If Adam Had Not Sinned: The Reason for the Incarnation from Anselm to Scotus by Justus H. Hunter
2. Justus H. Hunter at United Theological Seminary
3. Justus on Twitter
4. A Primer on the Absolute Primacy of Christ by Fr. Maximilian Mary Dean, F.I.

This installment begins a short series of three episodes devoted to the life and work of the Franciscan, Blessed John Duns Scotus, a woefully under attended-to philosopher and theologian of the High Middle Ages. So we're going to try and remedy that in some small way here. 

Today we’ll get something of an introduction to Duns Scotus by looking at some themes of his writing and thinking. We'll consider his working through the question of the Immaculate Conception, which at his time was a live and debated question. We’ll also get a sense of him within the context of his Francsican way of life, with its particular emphasis on the experience of beauty. 

And there’s no one better to start us off than today’s guest, Sister Mary Beth Ingham, a Sister of St. Joseph, who is presently Professor of Philosophical Theology at the Franciscan School of Theology at the University of San Diego, as well as Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Loyola Marymount University. 

Sister Mary Beth has written a number of works on Duns Scotus and the Franciscan tradition, including the book we’ll discuss today, Scotus for Dunces: An Introduction to the Subtle Doctor, as well as Understanding John Duns Scotus, and the related Rejoicing in the Works of the Lord: Beauty in the Franciscan Tradition. 

1. Mary Beth Ingham, CSJ, Professor of Philosophical Theology
2. Scotus for Dunces: An Introduction to the Subtle Doctor by Mary Beth Ingham
3. Understanding John Duns Scotus by Mary Beth Ingham
4. Rejoicing in the Works of the Lord: Beauty in the Franciscan Tradition by Mary Beth Ingham
5. Four Questions on Mary by John Duns Scotus, trans. Allan Wolter, O.F.M.
6. Franciscan Institute Publications

"Well known is the motto that Newman formulated for himself as cardinal and placed in his cardinal's coat of arms: cor ad cor loquitur. With this motto Newman seems to say that he has always wanted to speak from the heart, and has always wanted to reach the hearts those whom he addressed. . . . [Newman] obviously does not neglect high-level intellectual communication. But he always sought to communicate at a deeper-than-intellectual level: heart to heart." --John F. Crosby, The Personalism of John Henry Newman

My guest for today’s episode is Dave Delio, President of The Newman Idea, a not-for-profit dedicated to teaching interdisciplinary courses which help students at public and private universities integrate their faith with their majors and careers. 

An Associate Professor of Theology at the University of Holy Cross, he remains firmly committed to higher education and developing in students a habit of integral knowing.  Dave also serves as board treasurer of the St. John Henry Newman Association. He completed his doctoral work at the Catholic University of America.

What Dave and I discuss today is, in a way, very much in keeping with the Crosby quote from above. That is, the ways in which we exercise and are subject to personal influence. How ideas are best transmitted and enthusiasm elicited in the minds and hearts of others. How it is that we, as Newman says, “each receives and transmits the sacred flame.” 

In particular, we’ll hear about Dave’s encounter with John Henry Newman and the ongoing development of that relationship, despite a century in time separating us from Newman. Such things occur through the facilitation of others we come to know in the here and now. And so in this interview we’ll also hear of those other individuals that have helped Dave’s appreciation for, understanding of, and friendship with St. John Henry Newman.

1. The Newman Idea
2. The Newman Idea on Twitter
3. The Newman Idea on Facebook
4. "An Aristocracy of Exalted Spirits": The Idea of the Church in Newman's Tamworth Reading Room by David Delio
5. "Personal Influence, the Means of Propagating the Truth," by John Henry Newman
6. The Personalism of John Henry Newman by John F. Crosby

According to St. John Henry Newman, the human person is "his own centre . . . he has a depth within him unfathomable, an infinite abyss of existence."

Today’s episode centers around John Henry Newman and what can be called his personalistic thought. In other words, his reverence and appreciation for the human person in all its depth, richness, interiority, and openness onto the world and other persons. 

In the introduction to his 1969 study of the philosophical thought of John Henry Newman, Edward Sillem had the following to say:

"As far as philosophy is concerned he was no Augustine, Aquinas nor Scotus in stature. His real work lay in other fields. But he stands at the threshold of the new age as a Christian Socrates, the pioneer of a new philosophy of the individual Person and Personal Life."

Later Sillem adds,

"It is not Newman alone who stands revealed in the great vision he imparts to his readers; Newman only seems to be revealing himself so as to reveal the reader to himself." 

My guests today are Jules and Katie van Schaijik, who met as undergrads at Franciscan University of Steubenville in the mid-eighties. From there they went on to study philosophy at the International Academy of Philosophy in Liechtenstein, focusing especially on the personalism of John Paul II, Dietrich von Hildebrand, and John Henry Newman. They left formal academia in 2005, but their interest in personalism and their desire to bring its insights into contact with the wider culture has continued. They have a website called the Personalist Project where you can learn more. They have five children and (so far) five grandchildren.

Links:

1. The Personalist Project
2. "The Individuality of the Soul" by John Henry Newman
3. The Personalism of John Henry Newman by John F. Crosby

Is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception--dogmatically defined only in 1854--simply a pious superstition cobbled together by the Catholic mind? Or, thinking of the Eucharist, is the doctrine of Transubstantiation, a term found nowhere in Scripture, a corruption of gospel-purity by the medieval adoption of ancient Greek philosophical terminology and conceptualizations?

Such questions draw the Catholic mind to the notion of the development of doctrine. Thinking in this way, we realize that the dogmatic definition of the Immaculate Conception was the culmination of a gradual unfolding toward greater fullness of our understanding of God's revelation. Similarly, Transubstantiation is understood as a helpful articulation and development of the Church's perennial belief in Christ's Eucharistic presence. And we can presume that even though someone like St. Paul never used the terms "Immaculate Conception" or "Transubstantiation," he nonetheless would have assented to them, seeing them as the result of the Church in history coming to understand more fully what God has lovingly revealed to his people.

In his own time and manner, John Henry Newman devoted considerable care and attention to these questions and realities. His work on the development of doctrine has been one of the more impactful theological contributions of the past few centuries. More personally, his thinking on this matter had a significant part to play in his eventual departure from the Church of England and entry into the Catholic Church.

Guiding us through Newman's ideas concerning the development of doctrine in this episode is Bud Marr, who is Director of the National Institute for Newman Studies and Associate Editor of the Newman Studies Journal. 

1. The National Institute for Newman Studies
2. "An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine" by John Henry Newman
3. The Newman Studies Journal
4. Bud Marr
5. To Be Perfect Is to Have Changed Often: The Development of John Henry Newman's Ecclesiological Outlook, 1845-1877 by Bud Marr

The newly canonized John Henry Newman is fascinating in many respects. One such feature of the interest he garners is his being Newman the Catholic convert. He was raised in an Anglican home, eventually becoming a well-known and highly influential clergyman in the Church of England. Yet, at the height of his influence and public notoriety, Newman came into communion with the Church of Rome, becoming a Catholic. He would in time be ordained a priest, bring the Oratorian religious community to English shores, and eventually be named a cardinal by Pope Leo XIII.

So it is that one might wonder how Newman viewed other, non-Catholic Christians after his conversion. Given his keenness and subtlety of intellect and personality, Newman would refuse to turn his eye from the serious disagreements and differences between various branches and sects of Christians. He would at the same time also recognize and extol the good being done by other Christians, along with the sincerity and fervor of their faith.

Giving us an idea of Newman's ideas and attitudes regarding other Christians--along with much more aside--is David Deavel, Ph.D., editor of the fantastic Logos: A Journal of Catholic Thought and Culture, and Visiting Assistant Professor of Catholic Studies at the University of St. Thomas, Minnesota.  

1. Dr. David Deavel, Ph.D. University of St. Thomas
2. Dr. David Deavel on Academia.edu
3. Logos: A Journal of Catholic Thought and Culture
4. "Allies in a Time of Trouble: Newman on Other Christians" a talk by David Deavel at Anselm House