Many of us quietly accept the idea that our best self lives somewhere in the past — that youth is the ideal and aging is a slow erosion of who we really are. But what if getting older isn’t about losing our identity, but deepening it? What if the second half of life could be defined not by decline, but by “joyspan”—our capacity for meaning, connection, and contentment as we age?

Our guest on this episode is gerontologist and author Kerry Burnight, PhD. As a professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Medicine, Dr. Burnight spent 16 years caring for older adults suffering neglect and abuse. She co-founded the nation’s first Elder Abuse Forensic Center, bringing together medicine, adult protective services, and law enforcement to protect vulnerable older adults. Her search for how to help people not just avoid harm, but truly thrive into their later decades led to her work on joyspan, culminating in her New York Times best-selling book Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life’s Second Half (2025). Her work has been featured in outlets including The New York Times, The Guardian, BBC News, and Forbes Health.

Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Burnight details the experience of working with older adults suffering from neglect and abuse, the importance of team camaraderie for getting through dark moments, and the need to humanize people going through dehumanizing situations. We discuss joyspan as well-being and fulfillment combined with longevity; how focusing on growing, connecting, adapting, and giving can increase joyspan; how the internalized belief that we have less to offer as we age threatens joyspan; and how older adults are uniquely positioned to contribute to society. Dr. Burnight reminds us that joyspan is a health habit, and the best time to start focusing on this health habit is today.

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

3:00 - The story behind the first Elder Abuse Forensics Center

11:45 - Dr. Burnight’s advice for frontline workers navigating cases of elder abuse

15:05 - How social connection improves health outcomes 

24:00 - Defining joy and how joy can coexist with aging

33:15 - How our personal outlook on aging can impact our aging experience 

44:30 - The four elements of joyspan 

48:30 - Ways to build meaning into your life 

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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Many of the world’s best physicians find it surprisingly difficult to answer the question: Why are you in medicine? In the long, arduous journey of medical training or within the technocratically-minded healthcare system, one can easily get lost in the life of the mind—and become estranged from the life of the heart.

Our guest on this episode is Brewer Eberly, MD, a third-generation family physician and a fellow at Duke Divinity School’s Theology, Medicine, and Culture Initiative. Dr. Eberly grew up listening to physicians in his family discuss their work and was drawn to how life’s biggest questions are present in medicine. Now, his research focuses on the intersections of medicine, aesthetics, and theology — with a special focus on the “nourishment of weary clinicians.” 

Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Eberly shares how his early interests in art and literature continue to shape his life and work, and how the privilege of accompanying patients in all stages of life motivates his practice. We discuss how family medicine requires practitioners to have something to say about the well-lived life, and how this kind of wisdom is forged in silent contemplation. Finally, Dr. Eberly concludes with a profound and personal reflection on the question: What does it mean to willingly receive the suffering of someone that you cannot fix?

In this episode, you’ll learn about: 

2:36 - Dr. Eberly’s medical and creative origin stories 

10:45 - What makes family medicine unique, and Dr. Eberly’s approach to his work

22:30 - How Dr. Eberly tries to stay connected to the meaning of medicine

29:00 - The “Good Surgeon Project”

37:45 - Dr. Eberly’s view of the limitations of artificial intelligence in medicine 

43:30 - Ways of engaging with and being present for the suffering of patients

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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We often confuse happiness with the absence of sadness, or a meaningful life with a productive one. The result might be a life that runs smoothly, but feels strangely flat — as if something essential is missing from the story. What if a truly good life isn’t just happy and meaningful, but also interesting?

Our guest today is Shige Oishi, PhD, professor of psychology at the University of Chicago and author of Life in Three Dimensions (2025). Oishi pioneered the idea of psychological richness — the notion that a good life requires a diverse set of interesting, even disorienting experiences. As an expert in social ecology and well-being, his work spans more than 200 scientific articles and has been featured in outlets such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal.

Over the course of our conversation, professor Oishi traces his own journey from an undergraduate in booming-economy Tokyo — surrounded by overworked, unhappy adults — to a career in psychology in the United States, where seeing professors live differently opened his eyes to alternative ways of being. We explore how cultures like Japan, the United States, Finland, and Denmark differ in what they chase and expect from life; why small, everyday joys and high-quality relationships matter more than grand achievements; and how “success” and “ambition” can quietly shape our sense of happiness.

We then dive into psychological richness as a third dimension of the good life alongside happiness and meaning — one defined by variety, newness, and memorable stories, often colored by both positive and negative emotions. We discuss the risks of chasing only stability and efficiency; the importance of spontaneity; and the surprisingly simple ways we can cultivate psychological richness by staying curious and saying “yes” more often.

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

3:00 - Oishi’s path to studying the psychology of wellbeing 

8:45 - Rising competitiveness in American culture and how it is affecting lifelong happiness 

13:30 - Why Finland and Denmark are regularly rated the happiest countries 

15:55 - Whether there is a “correct” way to find meaning and happiness

19:15 - What it means to be “psychologically rich” 

28:00 - Balancing positive and negative emotions in a happy, meaningful, and psychologically rich life

41:30 - Developing psychological richness 

45:45 - How psychological richness can help address physician burnout

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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When a religious person is isolated from their community, whether due to hospitalization or military service, they can often rely on a chaplain for spiritual support. But where does a non-religious person turn when facing the same circumstances? And what tools do they have for meaning making?

Our guest is Greg Epstein, humanist chaplain at Harvard and MIT and author of the New York Times bestselling book Good Without God. As a humanist chaplain, Greg has spent his career building ethical communities that are united around the idea that human sociality and interdependence are a sufficient foundation for a meaningful life. Greg’s writings have been published widely, including in TIME magazine and The Washington Post, and he is a prominent public speaker in humanist and interfaith communities. 

In our conversation, Greg explains the role of a humanist chaplain, why a humanist chaplain is not necessarily an oxymoron, and how he guides individuals on their meaning-making journey. We discuss Greg’s candidate for the world’s most powerful word and a humanist’s argument for pursuing the work of healing over wealth. And finally, Greg walks us through the thesis of his most recent book Tech Agnostic – how technology has become a religion of its own, with a particular set of downsides. 

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

2:30 - Mr Epstein’s personal definitions of ‘chaplain’ and ‘religion’ 

8:23 - How Mr. Epstein uses a humanist framework to guide meaning-making

24:35 - Is there an absolute ‘good’? 

33:25 - The risks of technology as a religion

45:30 - Advice for medical professionals engaged in the work of healing while operating within a system built for profit

Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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Many medical trainees are driven to medicine by their moral or religious principles — only to find that they are expected to check their principles at the patient’s door. When this happens, physicians and patients may lose the opportunity for deeper, more healing relationships.

Our guest on this episode is Dr. Farr Curlin, a hospitalist and palliative care physician at Duke University School of Medicine. Dr. Curlin holds joint appointments in the Trent Center for Bioethics, Humanities & History of Medicine and Duke Divinity School, where he studies the intersection of medicine, ethics, and religion. 

From a young age, Dr. Curlin was intrigued by the moral dimensions of medicine. As a medical trainee, he began to study how the religious backgrounds of physicians inform their practice. He is the co-author of The Way of Medicine, in which he challenges the modern “provider of services” model and calls for a recovery of medicine’s spiritual foundations as a healing profession. Now, at Duke Divinity School, he spends significant time helping physicians re-center their practice around the question: “What is Good?” 

Over the course of our conversation, we discuss attitudes toward religion in the medical profession and how many medical professionals worry that being openly religious may make them seem retrograde — or worse. We explore striking the balance between offering physician wisdom while respecting patient autonomy, consider whether the project of medicine makes sense when viewed through the lens of secular humanism, and reflect on how the physician attributes of humility and respect enable physicians to productively bring their full selves to the bedside, all while practicing medicine within a morally pluralistic society.

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

2:48 - Dr. Curlin’s path to medicine and what drew him to a career at the intersection of religion and medicine 

19:30 - Dr. Curlin’s thoughts on why doctors often feel they cannot be openly religious

35:45 - How Dr. Curlin would change medical training to create a deeper focus on personal commitments and moral conviction 

41:15 - Exploring the limitations of artificial agnosticism at the patient’s bedside

51:50 - How fostering a spiritual connection to the work of healing can mitigate burnout

Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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Medical trainees spend years mastering what to do when biology fails — countless protocols, procedures, and split-second decisions. By the end, they’re primed to fix what’s broken. But what if the mandate of medicine is simpler — and more human?

Our guest on this episode is Dr. Jessica Zitter — a physician, author, and filmmaker who has spent her career at the fault line between intensive care and palliative care. Dr. Zitter was initially drawn to the technical choreography in the ICU: numbers to chase, procedures to perform. Yet, along the way, she began to notice the danger we rarely name — that in our devotion to protocol, we might drift away from the person in front of us. 

Over the course of our conversation, Dr. Zitter shares personal experiences that have shaped her approach to medicine. We talk about moral injury and how it compounds: when systems push us to act against our values, care gets worse, and the hurt deepens. We talk about how bias slips in when power meets prejudice at the bedside and why chaplains — so often sidelined — can be essential guides back to the human being we’re treating. Her prescription is simple: treat patients as you’d want your own loved ones to be treated. Ask for the story. Reconstruct the person we’ve taken apart into smaller pieces.

Dr. Zitter is the author of her memoir Extreme Measures, appears in the Academy Award-nominated short film Extremis, and is the director of several documentaries, including 2025’s The Chaplain & the Doctor.

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

2:45 - Dr. Zitter’s path to a career in intensive care medicine

4:52 - A day in the life of an intensivist

17:42 - Dr. Zitter’s unexpected pivot to prioritizing palliative care in her work  

26:41 - The inspiration for Dr. Zitter’s film The Chaplain and the Doctor

38:36 - How chaplaincy attends to the soul of the patient and what doctors can learn from this perspective

42:51 - Navigating internalized bias as a doctor

49:42 - Dr. Zitter’s advice for her younger self 

Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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Editorial Note: 

This episode was recorded in December 2024, after the nomination of Robert F Kennedy Jr as Secretary of Health and Human Services had been announced but prior to his confirmation.  Some comments by the podcast hosts and our guest will reflect this timing.

Elephants rarely get cancer, ants quarantine when sick, and altruistic pigs have a higher pain tolerance. In this episode, we discuss insights from the animal world that shed light on human health and wellness, as well as the power of data driven narratives in effective public health education. 

Our guest is Dr. David Agus, founding CEO of the Ellison Medical Institute and professor of medicine and engineering at the University of Southern California. As a CBS news contributor and author of three New York Times best selling books on health, Dr. Agus emphasizes the need for experts who are willing to explain rather than tell. 

Having experienced the politicization of public health during the pandemic, he highlights the importance of data transparency and the urgency for more physician leaders. With technological advances making data collection and analysis ever more accessible, Dr. Agus shares a vision for the future of medicine, where patients bring their own health data to the clinic and physicians act as educators guided by the values of their patients.

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

2:30 - Dr. Agus’s journey to medicine and how he found his way to focusing on preventative health and public education 

6:50 - Navigating the politicized nature of public health as a public health educator 

14:17 - Dr. Agus’s viewpoint on the controversial nominations of RFK Jr. and Dr. Oz 

19:51 - How the education of doctor needs to change to adapt to our newly data driven world 

24:20 - The current state of nutrition science and how people can make the best choices with the current data available on the topic 

32:12 - The potential benefits of making big data in electronic medical records available to physicians

32:48 - The inspiration behind Dr. Agus’s new book, The Book of Animal Secrets, and what the animal kingdom can teach us as humans about living a more fulfilling and healthy life 

52:11 - A vision for empowering patients with their personal medical data in the age of AI 

54:31 - Dr. Agus’s advice to clinicians on supporting patients with their preventative health

Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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Imagine practicing medicine not within the sterile confines of a hospital, but in the unpredictable world of city streets and shelters, where every patient encounter challenges conventional notions of care, empathy, and human dignity. We explore this reality through the extraordinary journey of Jim O'Connell, MD, whose groundbreaking work with Boston's homeless population has profoundly reshaped health care for society's most marginalized individuals.

Dr. O'Connell is the founding president of the Boston Healthcare for the Homeless Program and an assistant professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. In this episode, Dr. O’Connell shares stories from his extensive frontline experience, detailing the unique challenges of treating patients facing complex medical and psychiatric conditions exacerbated by unstable living conditions. From addressing devastating public health crises such as AIDS and tuberculosis to establishing consistent mental health care, he provides profound insights into what makes healthcare effective for homeless populations. He also reflects on a formative early experience — being asked by nurses to wash patients feet — that deeply influenced his understanding of empathy and the essence of medical service. Through these reflections, we gain a powerful appreciation for the depth of patience, relational care, and respect required in caring for vulnerable communities. 

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

2:00 - Dr. O’Connell’s unexpected path to medicine

11:34 - The distinction between a “country doctor” and a doctor who works in an academic setting

13:42 - How Dr. O’Connell began working with homeless populations 

20:30 - The difficulties doctors faced in the early years of the HIV/AIDS epidemic

29:14 - Navigating the compounding challenges of access and continuity among the homeless population 

37:12 - What has kept Dr. O’Connell dedicated to treating this population for 30+ years 

51:24 - Dr. O’Connell’s recommendations to clinicians on how to compassionately serve the homeless 

Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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The relationship between physicians and the larger healthcare system is incredibly complex, raising difficult questions about patient care, advocacy, and the role of doctors in shaping public policy. In this episode, we explore these critical issues and the realities faced by healthcare providers today. 

Our guest is Bruce Scott, MD, an otolaryngologist and 2024 – 2025 President of the American Medical Association (AMA). Motivated by a serious childhood injury and the life changing care he received, Dr. Scott subsequently pursued a career dedicated to surgery and health care advocacy. In this conversation, he shares his experiences as a surgeon, dealing with intricate procedures and urgent decisions, and discusses the importance of physician involvement in healthcare policy amid today's deeply polarized environment. 

Dr. Scott reflects on his own path to leadership within the AMA and underscores the impact that organized medicine can have on public health, health care access, and physician well-being. He provides insights into how the AMA navigates complex political challenges, addresses physician burnout, and promotes practical solutions to administrative burdens. We also discuss emerging issues such as the responsible integration of artificial intelligence in clinical settings, rebuilding patient trust in medical expertise, and the broader implications of physician burnout and mental health. 

In this episode, you’ll learn about: 

2:48 - The life-changing injury that led Dr. Scott to a career as an a surgeon

14:34 - How Dr. Scott became involved with advocacy at the American Medical Association 

21:27 - How the AMA’s work has been altered by the high levels of politicization around medicine 

28:27 - The challenges that physicians struggle with today 

32:47 - How the AMA works to maintain the public’s trust in doctors and the medical establishment 

37:33 - The AMA’s plan for navigating AI integration in a way that benefits doctors, not healthcare and insurance companies 

42:33 - How the AMA approaches the epidemic of physician burnout 

49:14 - Dr. Scott‘s recommendations for how to get involved in policy and advocacy. 

Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

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George Mark Children's House is a pediatric palliative care center in California that provides respite and hospice for children with serious illnesses and their families. In March 2025, we heard the personal story of the House’s director. In this episode, we have been invited on site to speak with someone whose life has been touched by the House. 

Our guests are Kaitlyn, a young woman living with epilepsy, her mother Liz, and Kyle, a child life specialist. Kaitlyn has lived with seizures since she was two years old. Over the years, the condition has shaped nearly every aspect of her life, from her time in and out of hospitals to the way she relates to friends, school, and her own identity. In this conversation, she talks about what it feels like to have a seizure, what she's learned from years of living with uncertainty, and how art, humor, and relationships have helped her make sense of it all. Liz, her mother, shares what it was like to first notice something was wrong, how hard it was to find her footing in a world of medical jargon and evolving diagnoses, and what long term caregiving has taught her about patience, advocacy, and perspective. 

This is not a story about overcoming illness or finding easy silver linings. It's a story about making room for a full life with joy, difficulty, grief, and connection, often all at once. And it's about the role of a place like George Mark, which offers families something rare — not just health care, but space to feel human in the midst of it all.

In this episode, you’ll hear about: 

3:20 - Kaitlyn’s epilepsy experience, through both her and her mother’s eyes

14:00 - How Kaitlyn developed a positive outlook on epilepsy

16:30 - How Kaitlyn’s family found George Mark Children’s House

23:30 - The role of a child life specialist

28:15 - Supporting a child through the physical, emotional and spiritual challenges of their illness

29:56 - How epilepsy has shaped Kaitlyn’s views on life’s priorities and challenges, and how it has shaped her mother’s view of parenting

40:00 - Kyle’s perspectives on helping children and families through some of life’s toughest experiences

43:08 - The qualities that Kaitlyn feels a doctor should have to best connect with their patients 

Visit our website www.TheDoctorsArt.com where you can find transcripts of all episodes.

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and review our show, available for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you know of a doctor, patient, or anyone working in health care who would love to explore meaning in medicine with us on the show, feel free to leave a suggestion in the comments or send an email to [email protected].

Copyright The Doctor’s Art Podcast 2025