The Driving Eureka! Podcast - Find, Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas to Innovate

Driving Eureka! Newsletter #20

Your Innovation Podcast. This is the 20th episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: What happened to telling the whole truth; Segment 2:The Power of telling the TRUTH about HOW your innovation is able to do what you promise; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:01] The Driving Eureka! Podcast - Episode #20

[00:00:32] This Weeks Theme is Truth

[00:01:18] When is Lying . . . Lying.

[00:02:03] Marketing has become Less Truthful

[00:03:19] Meaningfully Unique Brings Truth

[00:03:54] Dishonesty has New Looks to a Consumer

[00:04:56] Internet Helps and Hurts

[00:05:37] ReviewsCan Help Kill a Product

[00:06:16] Reviews are Even Becoming Dishonest

[00:06:33] You Must be Able to Explain "Why" the Product or Service is Better

[00:08:45] Reputation Will Kill Ability to Go Back to the Producer

[00:09:13] Start by Being Honest with Yourself

[00:09:58] Technology can Provide Feedback - But Honesty Starts with You

[00:11:23] Confront the Truth

[00:13:09] The Driving Eureka! Book Segment

[00:13:43] Problem Promise Proof in Action with Focus on Proof

[00:15:22] Proof Matters - It Closes the Sale

[00:16:05] Types of Proof

[00:17:00] Need to Know Why You are Able to Win

[00:17:36] Use Analogies and Not Give Secrets

[00:18:27] Must Do Something that is Really Unique

[00:18:53] Made in America is Not a Reason

[00:20:35] Testimonial on Innovation Engineering

[00:21:47] Industry Needs Creativity

[00:23:02] Are You a Commodity or an Innovation Leader - Pick One

[00:23:35] 80% of Products and Services Fail Because the Products are Fake

[00:24:33] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:25:02] The Importance of Honesty

[00:25:06] 3 Ways to Craft Whisk(e)y

[00:25:49] 70% of Taste is in the Aging

[00:26:11] Brain Brew Uses Time Compression and are Transparent

[00:26:43] The Spirits Industry Drives You to Be the Same

[00:28:18] We are Different and Proud of It

[00:28:43] Problem Promise and Proof in Whsik(e)y

[00:31:00] You Can Improve the Existing Product or from Scratch

[00:33:36] Must Know the Purpose of the Product

[00:35:41] The Craft Cocktail Recipe - The Rusty Nail

[00:35:52] History of Rusty Nail

[00:39:02] Next Explosion in Whisk(e)y

[00:39:59] Originally Recipes and Made from Scratch is the Future

[00:44:33] The Secret App

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and. Fast Track Big Ideas. Hi I'm Tripp battle advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whiskey maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka ranch and author of the driving Eureka book.

Tripp: [00:00:32] This is the Driving Eureka! podcast and this week we're going to be talking about truth. But just a note for listeners that are new you will find that these podcast episodes are related to Doug Hall's newsletter that you can go to Doug Hall dot com and under the menu hit newsletters you can sign up for to read them. And so I wanted to give that for any new listeners that we have. So our theme this week Doug is truth. All three segments will cover off truth and in the first segment you talk about what happened to telling the whole truth.

Doug: [00:01:18] Yeah and and Tripp I would I would be under a rock if I didn't say that part of the influence for this week's theme isn't the news that faces the country today as we have these debates about. Did someone tell the truth or not the truth. And are people lying or not lying and and and then the justification of well that's how it's always done. And all this and it just hit me that my great grandmother Hazel my grandmother rather Hazel hall up in North Freiburg Maine should have said that's a lie. You know there wouldn't have been any you know you were either telling the truth or not.

Doug: [00:02:03] And somehow with regards to our marketing with regards to our products there has become an acceptance that you can take a shortcut and maybe not if you're just because you didn't. You don't have to actually tell people everything and and that it's OK if they assume something other than what it really is then it's OK. And it just it's just got me irritated because I talk to people inside companies I talk to people who go to companies and oftentimes what I hear them talk about is they're disengaged because they don't feel there is integrity to the work they're doing that the product is being cheapened that the customer is being hoodwinked and when we aren't grounded in doing the right things in the right way it becomes an energy suck it just it just sucks the energy out of our life where when we are grounded in the real and in the genuine and things that are meaningful or that's that's why I always use meaningfully unique it's meaningful.

Doug: [00:03:19] This is truly different. That gives us a different level of energy and I think we've I I'm going to be total I'm a crotchety old man now. We need to get back to the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so.

Tripp: [00:03:36] So I see this play out and quite a few different ways. Right. Just on a. Forget the politics. But in as far as products and services and you know historically there's there's you can almost say that there's always been a problem to a certain to a certain degree.

Tripp: [00:03:54] So for instance the things I see today are and I'm not going to pick a particular product you know name a brand but but a product that you used to get it and it used to come in the 16 ounce tub and now it's the 14 and a half out stub. You know it's been cut back. And to me the price hasn't changed a bit and it's kind of a yeah in this kind of goes back to maybe the thing we talked about in Episode 17 would around integrity you know products it just seems like there's a lot of that type of slashing in order to get to profit. Yeah. Yeah I think you you said it well in the newsletter that things like false promises the things that when you get a product you're expecting it. I bought one of these visor things with the shade and you know supposed to help me with my nighttime vision. I didn't really I wasn't that impressed. That's right. I purchased it it didn't really live up to what I had expected it to do.

Doug: [00:04:56] Interestingly the Internet has is both helping and hurting in this case in the short term it hurts. I mean I bought a lightbox thing from one of the online purveyors. I'm not going to give endorsement by names. And the thing came and I'd read the description and it appeared like it was a brand new product. So there were only a few reviews I got the product and it just plain didn't work it didn't work it just didn't work. So I set it back and they were good about it. You know they took it back but you know you can get it. You can be life instantly now.

Doug: [00:05:37] Now the good news is as long term reviews are gonna kill that thing and it's going to go away. But in the short term you just don't know and somebody somebody told me that when you're using air B and B that never take an Air B and B place unless they have a lot of reviews because a few reviews could be just their friends and so you got to get to somebody that has a lot of reviews. That's that's your test of an Air B and B if it's a place to go to is do they have a lot of reviews and so long term the Internet helps us. But in the short term you see some IT LOOK GREAT looked like an awesome look like exactly what I wanted and it was garbage.

Tripp: [00:06:16] You know it's interesting. I just read an article yesterday about now even on reviews you can purchase 10000 positive reviews for like a hundred and sixty eight dollars.

Doug: [00:06:33] And it's a massive problem. I have a friend who's in hospitality with hotels and he says it's a massive problem in that literally competitors will come stay at your hotel and write bad reviews and it's verified because they stayed there. Mm hmm. I mean it's just it's just you know so it can be a help but it can be a hindrance. The thing is is that we've just got to have. I mean we've got to just when people are not being honest we have to call them on it. And and we have to call ourselves on it when we're tempted to do something and it's like 2:00 this morning just just before we recorded this I was having a meeting with some folks. It's a local distiller who's interested in working with us with brain brew some whisky. And we were talking about the situation and I said that while our products can win and I could explain exactly why that was which we'll talk about proof in a minute but I could explain why. And as opposed to trust me it's better you know cause when you're doing something different truly different than other people are doing then you can get a different outcome but if you're doing the same old stuff as everybody else then it's just marketing puffery and eventually you're gonna get caught. It's the reason why I love design that's functional but most design to me is a facade to take the same old crap and make you think it's better. And in that case there I think design serves a disservice because after you get by the pretty new shell you find it's just as crappy as anybody else. And people will try to use design the cover flaws in the fundamental performance of the service or the product or whatever it is you're doing guy.

Tripp: [00:08:28] And this gets I mean there are so many areas that require some type of truth because to be be honest the consumer isn't going to know. I mean so they have to take kind of a leap of faith associated with the service that they're getting.

Tripp: [00:08:45] You know when I have my  HVAC guy come in I have no idea. I don't really know whether he's doing the right thing or not. I know a little bit more because now I've worked with a few over the years but there is a degree of trust that you have to have. There are certain companies now that I won't work with just because I know how they operate. And there is a lot of things that drive that so so.

Doug: [00:09:13] So this also has to do with ourselves. Telling the whole truth to ourselves. I have been this year for some reason you know how January comes up and we get our new year's resolutions. This year I made the same resolution you made for the last 30 years which was to get healthier and for reasons because I married up with my wife almost 40 years ago. She. She's got us healthier I mean and I'm a lot healthier and losing weight. And I like that stuff. But part of what it required was being absolutely honest with myself.

Doug: [00:09:58] And the first thing was exercise the number how much exercise just doing you know yeah you can go and be on a treadmill and be a warm body there or you can be on the treadmill and actually sweat. It's a different thing. And what I have found is this Apple Watch with its measurement of active calories how many calories you're burning and thanks to the folks at Canyon Ranch we've done the body pod thing and figured out what my resting metabolic rate was and how much I had to do and calories I know every day how much I have to move to hit the goals that I've set and I don't hate it all the time but I'm probably hitting it at least 80 percent maybe not 90 percent. Probably. I could look it up on the app but that gives me makes me confront reality. Have I actually move because what I found when I started to measure it is I thought I was doing it because I'd go over and exercise it at the ranch I live next door but then I'd sit and work on the computer all day long get up have dinner then sit and read a book or watch TV and at the end of the day you know I saw a corpse has less now active calories but I'm not fine.

Doug: [00:11:23] You know and then you look at it you go hey oh how do you get fat yet did you consume more than you did because you weren't doing anything. And so having that the truth that measurement makes me confront the truth and be honest with myself am doing and then on the other side counting calories which I'm not as good at.

Doug: [00:11:44] But she's articulate at it so that helps me. But you know if you want to get something done you set some goals what you got to do and you but you got to be honest with yourself you can't be oh well if I work a little harder it'll do it. That's not going to happen. That's not going to happen. And and so this truth it's important not only externally what we do but we're honest with ourselves who are we where are we going and what are we going to do about it. You know you don't set up to become a great athlete and just you know pray for a miracle you set some goals you confront the reality of OK this is how fast I am. Now this so fast I have to do if I'm going to be able to qualify for X marathon or whatever race or whatever it is and you confront the reality well in our life we've got to be honest with ourselves and in our business and you know what happens when you're honest. As I just said when you're honest with yourself when you're honest with others you have a sense of integrity and you have a new energy you have you have a new energy as to what it is because otherwise when you're lying to yourself you just it just sucks the life out of you.

Tripp: [00:13:09] It's time now for the Driving Eureka! book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall. Well what's what's. Now apply this. Then let's let's go to the Driving Eureka! book segment and talk about how do we take this gap between what people are expecting they're getting and how do we how do we go about with our products and services and begin to bring truth to it.

Doug: [00:13:43] So in the in our innovation engineering courses and in the Driving Eureka! book we talk about communicate and we just quickly simplify its customer problem promise proof here's your customer. What's the problem they have. What's our promise to address their problem. And then what's the proof that we can deliver on the promise to solve their problem. And so this week I want to talk about proof because proof is where the rubber meets the road. This is what is it. What is the innovation that we're doing. And how does it make the promise possible. And this is where you've got to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Why are you able to do it. And if you say we're better OK how much better and why are you better. Well because we care more. That's crap. No what are you doing. Do your people have more training. Do they have better tools. Do you use better quality raw materials. Do you have an invention that enables you to do something amazing. What is it that makes it possible for you to do something remarkable and what the data shows tracking called the Darwin 2000 where we tracked actual innovations in the marketplace is when you have a low amount of proof versus a high amount of proof. When you have high proof. It literally doubles your odds of success in the marketplace that is still being in business after three to five years.

Doug: [00:15:22] And so proof really does matter because the you know the problem and the promise they get my attention what proof does is it closes the sale when I just met with some folks and I went through and I explained time compression finishing and how we do it that was all nice and I explained technically why we were able to do it. That was proof and then I said but don't take my word for it taste them. And they went through and taste this. Oh my God this is amazing. I've never had whiskey like this. That's it. And it's proof that it actually really does work. Okay. Not just wave my hands at it but real proof.

Tripp: [00:16:05] Okay. So when you say I and it just because these terms are a little nebulous to me and when you say high proof versus medium proof versus low proof how would I distinguish what's a high proof type of thing versus the other levels or how do you know we've got a bunch.

Doug: [00:16:21] Well I mean we we have a bunch of different rating things that we used to do that. But a way to think about it is is how credible is it how believable is it does it. And they didn't really explain how it works. They can't explain but I got some questions. That's truth beyond a reasonable doubt. I think they probably can really do it.

Tripp: [00:16:45] Ok. So. So it's in essence so going back to some of the things that you've used before for instance compared comparison testing those types of things those are parts of what you would be comprised in proof.

Doug: [00:17:00] It could be but I'd rather have that. OK. It tastes better than this as the promise. And the reason it tastes better is we use Mongolian sassafras wood which gives us an elegance I'm just making something out okay. Yeah yeah. You know that. Why are you able to win. I want to know why you can win so you're products better. That's fine. Why is it better. What are you doing that no one else is doing.

Tripp: [00:17:28] I mean it almost leads my at least my mind to I'm giving away secrets type of thing that I'm.

Doug: [00:17:36] Well I mean it. I mean if there is a trade secret then you don't say it but the fundamental thing is is there's usually an analogy that you can use to make that come to come to life so for instance with our whisky stuff the way we explain to them is we replicate seasons a barrel aging by applying heat and pressure up and down just like the barrels go through over time. Only we do it very quickly. Okay. I haven't technically explained to you my pressure settings and my ramp up curves in my integration but I've given you I've told you the truth about how we're able to do it and that helps. Then

Tripp: [00:18:11] I guess yeah. From mine standpoint you've got something that is meaningfully unique. If you've got something that that's that's better than what's in the marketplace and also knowing your system that that's the aim of the whole thing anyway.

Doug: [00:18:27] That's right. I'll tell you you cannot be meaningfully unique unless you're doing something different. You can't do the same old crap as everybody else and be meaningfully unique. No but that's just flimflam game. You have to be doing something different. My question to people always is what are you doing different than anybody else. What do you do that no one else does. No that's about the same. I said OK you're just a commodity. Well no no no. We are made in America where we're care we customers number one.

Doug: [00:18:53] I said that's all crap. I mean that's just it. That's not the difference. That's not the difference. It's not a difference this matters made in America is great. If your quality is twice as good as the stuff that comes from China. Well actually the China stuff is pretty much about as good as us. Okay. So it doesn't matter what are you doing that's different. What makes you different. And if you're not change it because when you know you're selling the same old crap as everybody else but just for a higher price it sucks the life out of you you don't get excited to get up in the morning to let's do the same crap as everybody else and overcharge people for it I know I know I'm a ranting old man.

Tripp: [00:19:31] No no no.

Doug: [00:19:32] That's that's the problem we got that's why everything fails. We have an epidemic of stupidity when it comes to the world of innovation. I mean with it with an 85 percent failure rate we should just blow up the system and instead people get to know we're doing OK. We just need to get a little bit better. No. Eighty five percent failure rate. Imagine if you had an eighty five percent chance your car would start would you be happy with it. No that's where it used to be in the 60s.

Tripp: [00:20:03] Really.

Doug: [00:20:03] The fact of the matter is today we've got to get smarter in the way you do that if you do stuff that makes a difference. That's why are you reconvening team when we were pushing people. People just got tripped. I just read a note I read a note. Let me see if I can find it. I read a note from a company that we're working with I'm not going to give the name. I'm not going to give the name of who who the corporation is but one of the people just completed the Bluebelt. OK OK. And they just completed their Bluebelt.

Tripp: [00:20:33] So relatively new.

Doug: [00:20:35] Yeah. They just did this whole thing. They've been with the company for 20 years. They said I participated in many programs around New Product Development. They they were not dynamic or holistic in their approach. And they said with each passing year less and less of our offerings are truly new or offered a significant amount of value. They were cannibalizing on existing it's obvious things. And while we've grown it's hard to say that any of our stuff was truly really unique this time for the first time is the only approach that addresses the fact that we need to do something that makes a real difference in our customers lives and the speed with which they have new ideas that come to. Direct quote the speed with which new ideas have come to life and have been refined into workable concepts is nothing short of amazing. I mean that's somebody that's been sitting there in the treadmill and we're doing a trite tiny tweak to make a commotion in the marketplace and it just doesn't matter. And now they're saying wait a minute we can't do something that makes a difference. We can do something that makes a difference.

Tripp: [00:21:47] You know this follows a lot of what Dr. Deming did teach as far as he would say there's certain manufacturing that's just gone from the US that we need to be able to manage with our brains. And so far the philosophy has been of when and I'm sure it's not limited just to American management but management in general is just looking for the cheapest price. Where can I move my labor to to in order to do it more cheaply and they're totally missing us as far as being able to understand the well. In this case the promise of what you bring in innovation with Innovation Engineering system and being able to actually have a method to not just compete on price but compete on because you have something better that that people want to buy. I think I think it's a I don't wanna get that point loss because from a well.

Doug: [00:22:51] You got to decide right you've got to decide are you going to be the pork belly business. Maybe the low cost producer or you're going to sell bait because you offer something that they can't get anywhere else.

Doug: [00:23:02] And once a lot more profitable the other like three times more profitable and that's a choice and there's a place for people that sell commodities.

Doug: [00:23:10] That's the market for that but there is also a market and the people that make money are the ones that add value. And so that's a strategic choice. If you've made a strategic choice to be cheap then don't whine about the fact that you have tight margins that you made that that's a choice. The market doesn't create commodities. Leadership decides to be commodities. It's a leadership decision not a market decision.

Tripp: [00:23:35] Yeah. Yeah and there's one other thing you had in here that kind of caught my eye too in your in your newsletter which was you say sadly analysis finds that only 20 percent of concepts offer product or service proof. That leaves 80 percent that don't. Is it a coincidence that just over 80 percent of all new products and services fail.

Doug: [00:23:58] And so to be clear it's not is that it's that they didn't put the words in the reason they didn't put the words in it because there's nothing there. It's a fake. It's not a real innovation. It's just marketing mumbo jumbo. It's just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic to use the analogy. That's it. And when you have something that's really remarkable you tell people about it. And when you don't. What we find is pretty much don't have anything.

Tripp: [00:24:33] Ok. Very good. Well let's move to the brain brew whiskey Academy. This is the brain brew whiskey Academy podcast where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whiskey distillery business. Eureka ranch team led by Doug Hall. Are Creating a craft Whiskey Company. With. Patented technology like this never been done before

Tripp: [00:25:02] The importance of honesty.

Doug: [00:25:06] Okay. So when it comes to crafting whiskey there are many methods you can grow the grain to still mature with wood blend in bottle. OK so it's grain to glass or you can buy commercial grains mature with wood blend bottle OK or you can buy raw spirit mature with wood blend and bottle all three can do it. But there's a different cost and time requirement and our choice is the third because the Ross spirit is only 5 percent of what matters.

Doug: [00:25:49] 70 percent is the wood. Twenty five percent is is what grains you pick to use in your whiskey. And so the value add is not in the in the in the distilling the value add is an aging because that's where all the flavor comes from. Now I know people like that but that's just our choice. You can do whatever you want.

Doug: [00:26:11] That's what matters. The thing that is most important is what does your whiskey taste like. And however you do it as fine but the other thing is the then being honest and straightforward in your communications because when you're transparent you build trust. So we're very clear on our labels that we use time compression to finish our products and that's what we do. And we explain how works. That that's it. That's what we do. And we don't hide it. It's on the front label it's on the back label we're very honest about it.

Doug: [00:26:43] And in fact we're proud that we do that. We're proud of it because so much of the flavor come in color of whiskey comes from the wood. We're focusing on the place that matters to you our customers to give you the best taste experience and give a unique to taste experience. In fact time compression is how we do it. That is the proof to do it. Now you're dealing with a category that classically has no proof. It's legend and lore instead of real proof. In other words if you follow the bourbon rules exactly your bourbon because the rules are so tight it's gonna be like every other person's bourbon. I mean it's gonna have a little bit of variation on is it rye or wheat. The second ingredient but fun and the temperatures are where you are when you're doing it. But fundamentally it's all gonna be basically about the same. And so congratulations you've just gone through a process that allows you to make a product that's just about the same as the big guys but they cost you a lot more money than it costs the Giants to make whiskey. We're in our case if I use 200 year wood if I if I mix Japanese wood with European oak if I start to use maple I start to use cherry. If I change the pressure cycles so replicate the seasons of different parts of the world I can make totally unique tastes and I can craft things where the taste is totally different. So the key here is is to be honest. And when we do something different like what we're doing with time compression don't hide it celebrate it.

Doug: [00:28:18] You say Yeah but people aren't like that because you're different. I go Well the only reason they should like me is because I'm different. You know I mean it's like a circular logic. People say well I don't want to tell me what we're doing. Oh that's right. So here try my whiskey. It's the same crap as everybody else. Well that's not going to sell much you know. And so we like to celebrate it. And so just tell people what you doing. Tell them what it is.

Tripp: [00:28:43] So Doug if we if you take the how you break things out you know and we would use the term Yellow Card but as you fill out your idea and you're going through and you have your customer your problem your promise and your proof what would you have for each of those for the brain brew. Well how would you define the customer and then and going all the way down through problem promise and proof.

Doug: [00:29:11] Well it depends. I mean 18 percent drink whiskey. So if it was one of my products that was made for people that are whiskey drinkers would be one thing if it was Scotch drinkers or nothing if it was non drinkers it would be a different one. OK. Let's take let's take the 82 percent. OK. OK. Which would be our kilowatt product. Eighty two percent of the population don't drink whiskey in the last year in America. That's the facts. That's the data. Big big surveys show this. And so the problem is is that you. You like spirits but you don't like whiskey because it can have a harsh and it has a bite to it. What we've got is with our Keelboat product we've got an easy drinking product that tastes great over that's been made to be drank over the rocks and it makes cocktails that won't have any speed bump in them. So when you taste it you chase the smooth thing and as you may you may not know for the five top cocktails in the world the whiskey cocktails because they have more flavor than you get with a vodka. The reason we're able to do this is because we use a four grain product and we've optimized it so to smooth it and our time compression approach smooths it off. So to give you the taste of a older whiskey but for the price at a reasonable price and that's what we've got. And. And so you're going to get a product that won't have a speed bump in your cocktail unit tasting all this the bourbon was fine except for one taste of the Bourbon. In our case it fuses together to become one.

Tripp: [00:30:46] Okay. So so as you see what I'm hearing is as you built these products you had a specific customer problem promised proof in mind for your kill though versus your tall stacks versus.

Doug: [00:31:00] Actually well actually we weren't that smart. Oh we made the products. OK. And then we ran quantitative testing and we looked at the demographics and psycho graphics because we can do the data like really quick and cheap. We looked we looked at the data and then from the data we figured out who they appeal to. And then we optimized it for that group of people. So ours is not a matter of pontificating and then telling them what they do. Our wishes are of the people and by the people. I I've been doing this business so long that I've learned that especially when I do things that are new and different I don't know what's going to happen. And so I believe in taking it out and getting quantitative data looking at the people who are doing it and then finding out basically kind of what neighborhood of people like this. And sometimes there's none or there's not a big enough thing so we kill it. But I find a group that people like and then I optimize it for that group of people. So each of our products is different if you like smoky food and cigars you're gonna like Tall Stacks. If you're somebody that's a big whiskey forward you like the big whiskey cocktails the Manhattans and that guy stuff then you're gonna like our Deckhand product. If you're more of a connoisseur of whiskey and you like to drink it over ice or neat than our Paddle Wheel with two hundred wood is absolutely going to be your product that's someone you're gonna do. And if you're new to whiskey and you've never had it before then you're gonna like our Cuba product because it's the super easy drinking no stress no bite no burn product. And so our four core products each appeal to a very different customer segment.

Tripp: [00:32:41] So would it be fair just just from some of our previous conversations that the kill Bo then because you're going after the 82 percent is more likely to and you know you mentioned dipping on the rocks but we also talked about expanding the market you're talking about that 82 percent that really don't drink whiskey that they're more functionally operating towards a cocktail.

Doug: [00:33:07] Yeah it's definitely over half of whiskey and America's drinking cocktails are mixed. So yes it's celebrating. And this many whiskey companies who you know they really don't they. Token cocktails they don't celebrate them in this case here we optimized the product to make spectacular cocktails. And I'll I'll go head to head with anybody on a cocktail with it amongst a mass audience. Now if it's a hardcore whiskey person I'm going to use one of my other whiskeys for it.

Doug: [00:33:36] The smoked or the or the the Deckhand because they are bigger whiskey tastes but amongst the masses that's what it's made for. There's a purpose. There's a real purpose. So to me whenever you have a line of products you've got to be able tell me why that product is in the line. If you can't justify why it's in the line then don't just don't do it for the sake of doing it. You're just creating a noise.

Tripp: [00:33:59] Okay so. So the interesting part I learned here is you kind of started with the whiskey and then and maybe this goes back to the development piece when you were talking about developing it whether it's product services the same thing with whiskey that you're kind of in the development process you continually are learning and and you know modifying the product associated with people steering you in different directions in association with what happens in that development process.

Doug: [00:34:30] Yeah I'm a I you can start from an idea or you can start from a product you're going to start from a package. I like it when I start from an idea. Sometimes it's just not possible to make the product.

Doug: [00:34:49] So my bias and let's say that you can't my bias is figure out a cool product that's meaningful unique and then figure out how to market it. And usually if you can find a meaningful unique product you can find a way to sell it not always this time if you make it meaningfully product but there's no way to sell it. But the number of times that you fail because you have an idea but you can't physically do it you can't make the whiskey make that you can't create that that's much greater. And so I like to start from meaningful unique products and build them out it's much faster process for doing it in my mind. But then again I can make whiskey you know very quickly I can do 72 cycles in seven days. And so I have a system to do it. If your product development process is a very slow one then that's not the case you know. So again it's just different strokes for different folks depending on where you are.

Tripp: [00:35:41] Okay. All right well let's move to the craft cocktail recipe says Great Scott. Rusty Nail not had the rusty nail before. I like the rusty now.

Doug: [00:35:52] So yeah. Okay so this is the rusty nail that's the classic from Scotland the Rat Pack in the 1960s. Drambuie liqueur from the Isle of Skye. Bonnie Prince Charlie the legend made it so it's a it's a it's a whiskey liqueur and classically you would put that together with a couple of ounces of whiskey or whatever type you want. And about a half ounce of DRAM booty and you'd build it over ice and stir it. OK Classic in our case a great Scot is named in honor of Scott McCauley a dear dear friend who's led the College of piping and Celtic performing arts of Canada and who sadly passed away. He was right. He was not the founder but he was the spiritual founder of the College of piping which I'm very involved in and just a dear friend and so I named this one after him where what we do is we use our tall stacks bourbon which is a smoked product a three wood smoked product hickory cherry and apple.

Doug: [00:37:05] And it just creates this wonderful smoke cloud in fact as I'm talking about it I'm thinking tonight that's what they're going to have tonight. I think that's that's that's my cocktail tonight I think. And it's just because you get the sweet of the Drambuie and you get the smoke and so you get this sweet smoke combination which is just boom. I mean it just takes your mind to a different place because it's taken in in another world.

Tripp: [00:37:33] Sounds strong.

Doug: [00:37:37] It is. It is a whiskey forward. It is not for a newbie. Right. Okay. Because it is. I mean there is some sweetness to it so it tones it down the drain. Is pretty sweet so but it is it is not for a newbie.

Tripp: [00:37:51] Okay. You know there's a couple couple of things you've talked about you've talked about different riffs and we've talked about you know starting with with an add an original recipe and then kind of going from there. Yeah I threw out on some of these social media sites on Facebook. I just said you know Hey what what do you what do you kind of mixed drinks do you have or cocktails Do you have with your whiskey. And it's pretty much everybody kind of has the same thing and one person hasn't mentioned a Sazerac but most of the other people said an old fashioned or a Manhattan. Those seem to be the the ones that are I you know on their people's minds anyway that they they find to be their favorites are there. I mean I also then because of some of the things that we've talked about during our episodes of different drink so I for the I can't remember a probably going to mismatch these but for instance I remember there were some relationship I think between the Manhattan and the Boulevard. So I sat and I asked people I said you know have you tried to Boulevard you know so different people I got different people out there at least trying different things you know from that standpoint.

Doug: [00:39:02] Well we are the it's the next explosion in alcoholic beverages. I believe there's gonna be two. One is going to be low out low to no alcohol is definitely coming and we're working in that space and it's gonna be huge but it's all in it and it's gonna be cocktails and but not cocktails out of a jug of high fructose corn syrup sweet and citrus junk. But the craft world is fresh juices.

Doug: [00:39:38] I was amazed I went I was in New York recently for know thing with innovation engineering and went to see a show and I went into a Anthony Bourdain dive plus he's passed away but but this was like I tried to find a fancy cocktail bar near Times Square and I couldn't find anything that was worthwhile.

Doug: [00:39:59] So I went into it basically a Cuban dive. I mean it was not shall we say it was a more of a working man's place not a high society place. And and I ordered the Hemingway which we've talked about because it was Cuban and they had Hemingway on it and I thought and I figured I was gonna get myself you know a sugar sweet thing done and damned if the guy didn't literally right in front of me so fresh squeezed the juices brings me the cocktail and I said Man that is amazing. I can't believe it. He says well you know I have a lot of pride in what I do. And this is the bartender and I thought tab that's awesome. You know he's not in a hot toddy place the drinks are not stupid prices but he is a person and supported clearly by the owner that they're going to do honest work and do it.

Doug: [00:40:57] And the more we get that the more the everyday hotel bar the restaurants the chains make a commitment to doing real stuff. We're gonna see an explosion in cocktails our cocktail experience is just ridiculous. I just think it's just going to be the next wave. That's every hour where we're opening up over in London and everybody over there is talking it's gonna be cocktails cocktails and cocktails. So so hopefully we'll open this up. And while I love the Manhattan and I love old fashioned and they're they're great cocktails.

Doug: [00:41:33] There's just so much more you can do so much more you can do.

Tripp: [00:41:37] Will be interesting to see and maybe that's not the market here but how do you how can you move people off of those into things like the Boulevard or even new drinks that are out there. Do you have you kind of written off the people are closer to our age and you're talking about the people that are the millennials that are coming up is that that kind of the focus.

Doug: [00:41:58] No actually I think both. No no no. The older people are looking for something new. They're looking for something different. I grew up as a percentage of them. And and there are you know there are drinks out there that you can turn around and do the prop. Some of them have been trashed because of you know the quality that was done you know in many cases what's happened to the Whiskey Sour is is that bad bad sour mix as opposed to making Phillips one where we use lime lemon and orange juice as well as the zest from the fruit as we're making it. And you know we start to make it that way without with a one to one simple syrup not a two to one. In other words one part sugar one part water and then using three quarters of a cup of juice you're not getting that sticky sweet the zest gives you freshness you taste that and it's an amazing drink. Mm hmm. And so in some cases you got to do that but in other cases you know it's so you like an old fashioned.

Doug: [00:43:00] That's cool. Well I give you a Gold Rush and instead of using you know a sugar cube I'm using honey water instead of using orange I'm using lemon juice. So it's a cousin to the old fashioned but the honey gives it some depth. The lemon juice gives it a brightness to it and it's it's not scary to you it's it's a variation on it. And then once you learn that I show you. Okay well you can do a riff do you want to turn around use pineapple juice instead. And we call it a risky whiskey.

Doug: [00:43:38] So now I've used honey water and pineapple and suddenly we got people becoming cocktail chefs who can make their own stuff as opposed to focused on the cookbook.

Tripp: [00:43:50] That's interesting. I could be curious as you get deeper into the specialty with some of these new products that you have as you go into bars because you've talked quite a bit about you know sometimes you go in a bar and you see the stuff in the mixes and those types of things and then there's the guy like you you just talked about you know from where from the Cuba restaurant you know that that was you know really into a craft cocktail you know really wanted to make something special. I'm curious if the the Doug part of you is going to be I'm only going to sell if they go to bars if they have the right you know bartender or the right attitude or something is that is that in your mind. I don't know.

Doug: [00:44:33] Yes it has. OK. As it has we have it figured that out yet. But but will encourage them with positiveness with apps that point people to it. So you ready for this. OK. This is the first time we've announced this. This is a secret so don't tell anybody okay. The stuff that gets me in trouble. Okay.

Doug: [00:44:53] So so recently we did we had a whole bunch of people taste a stupid number of cocktails and answer a ridiculous number of questions on what kind of foods and beverages they liked. OK. You like smoked food Hot and spicy food sweet versus our salty verse are all kinds of questions like and then the you know the ranch has some like ridiculous super brains for a computer program and data analysis. Which is why innovation in theory has all these artificial intelligence apps that makes you smarter than you are.

Doug: [00:45:24] Which I always need you know because it helps me. Well Gregg has built and we've got a rough prototype and he's got also got a mischievous sense of humor. Rob comes a question. And you know this apps where you swipe right and you swipe left. Oh yeah. Yeah well you swipe right and you swipe left whether you like that thing or not. And after you do the swiping it literally the app then brings up a customized cocktail just for you.

Tripp: [00:45:53] Oh really.

Doug: [00:45:54] So it takes you down through to find the cocktail that you would most like. I'll send you a link to that. I actually can't give you the demo to it because he's he's got it on the thing but and and so and it doesn't just make a cocktail. It makes your cocktail. That's cool. It will adjust the amount of alcohol. It will adjust. What do you have fears to the thing. It adjusts which whiskey you should use. And so it's literally creating your own cocktail recipe. And so we think this is gonna be pretty cool. Yeah. So what will happen is people will be able to do the app and it will tell them which bars in the city have cocktails that match their taste and what the name of the cocktail is.

Tripp: [00:46:47] Well you're only going to be able to do that for Cincinnati right.

Doug: [00:46:50] And then we'll do it in every other city with our partners.

Tripp: [00:46:53] Okay. I got it. All right. Well that's cool. Yeah. That'll be that'll be something.

Doug: [00:46:59] That's stupidly cool. Yeah. Yeah.

Tripp: [00:47:02] That that that's taking your research and actually making it applicable to you know that the where the rubber meets the road place. So that now that's that's great. Now I can't wait. So when will we see this thing you know more in the public eye.

Doug: [00:47:20] I have no idea when it sort of bizarrely. This is my answer is is when it's right. OK. You know when it works out and I don't you know I'm in this business for the long term. So unlike stupid people who just say well you have to ship it may 1st whether it's ready or not ship it and then you ship something crappy when we feel good enough about it and the testing shows. I mean because right now some of the strains are really really good at picking people. The cocktail some of them are not because it's like this whole algorithm they go through. And so we have to do some more optimization on it to get there. But when we've got it so that it's working more times than not and giving added value to people then we'll ship it. So when we ship it it works and we don't ship crap so we don't ship bad products. We don't ship bad software. It has to work.

Tripp: [00:48:13] So cool. All right. Well bringing honesty to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy or the importance of it. Any final comments on it.

Doug: [00:48:25] Yeah. So this I think of Hazel Hall folks. Don't tell me it's mostly true. Don't tell me it's kind of true. Tell me the truth the whole truth. Be honest with yourself. Be honest with those you work with. Be honest with your customers and when you do that you're going to have boundless energy and but as Ben Franklin said it's easier to suppress the first desire than all those that follow it. The minute you start to shade it a little bit kind of sort of it's OK then the next thing you know you're just selling crap and nobody needs crap.

Doug: [00:49:12] Let's do great things. It's a good way to end that

Tripp: [00:49:21] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for limited time for things a one hour abridged audio of the driving Eureka book. A subscription to the driving Eureka newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast track big ideas. And the newsletter. Has other offers that are not paid public. The driving Eureka prescription for success. You answer questions and we'll help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas. And you get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate. And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend. To get these offers. Go to w w w dot Doug Hall dot com forward slash podcast. And don't forget to subscribe

Tripp: [00:50:23] To the Driving Eureka! podcast on iTunes.

Driving Eureka! Newsletter #19

Your Innovation podcast. This is the nineteenth episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: Fun is Fundamental; Segment 2: Link; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:01] The Driving Eureka! Podcast

[00:00:33] Episode 19 - Theme is Fun!

[00:01:37] About Jumpstart Your Brain

[00:02:31] The Story of Yink

[00:05:10] The Story of Yink

[00:13:35] The Driving Eureka! Book Segment

[00:14:45] Research on Humor for Creativity

[00:15:46] Ideas for Humor

[00:17:57] How Humor Disappears as We Age and Then Reappears

[00:20:23] How to Set the Creative Mood

[00:24:43] Keep the Creative Light On 24/7

[00:25:33] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:25:46] Brain Brew Fun

[00:28:03] Cocktails Make Whisk(e)y Fun

[00:29:21] Whisk(e) Cocktails with Different Whisk(e)y Makes a Different Cocktail

[00:32:14] New Drinks Make for Fun - Even Old Drinks in a New Way

[00:33:11] Homework - Try Cocktails that are Different

[00:34:59] Go Back to the Original Fresh Ingredients for Cocktails

[00:36:38] Specialty Cincinnati Whisk(e)ys by Brain Brew

[00:38:00] History of Whisk(e)y in Cincinnati

[00:43:37] Craft Cocktail Recipe - Remember the Maine

[00:44:30] Step 1

[00:44:35] Step 2

[00:44:38] Step 3

[00:44:42] Step 4

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas.

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whisk(e)y maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka! Ranch and author of the driving Eureka book.

Tripp: [00:00:33] This is Episode 19 of the Driving Eureka! podcast and the theme for Episode 19 is fun. We're going to have fun so we have say it so seriously. Anyway hanging over Doug come on I'm the straight guy. Remember.

Doug: [00:00:52] We're going to have fun. Joy.

Tripp: [00:00:58] You're hurting me.

Doug: [00:00:59] Okay so we are already having fun. Si si si si the.

Tripp: [00:01:04] And they wonder I have a headache after this. Okay. Okay. So our feature article it's fun is fundamental. And I got to tell you I got a kick out of reading this and especially since you sent me a link to the video of this thing see there's there's Jumpstart Your Brain I believe is the book that that this came from which was your first book but it's kind of a story that you wrote and so give me a little bit about the inspiration and how you went about writing this.

Doug: [00:01:37] Okay. So so you know mostly we do Driving Eureka! which is latest book but I was just I was poring through some stuff and I found this the art for this. It was actually a photocopy of it but that color photocopy. But the art for a story in my first book jumpstart your brain and jumpstart your brain was it was about creativity but it was about it had kind of a twisted sideways. I mean the idea was to get people to laugh and we'll talk more about the importance of fun in the Book segment. I took a segment from the from the book about it but you know the idea was to open up people's minds and at the end of the book because I wrote the first book and we did your first book contract and that's in the old days where they gave you like a lot of money as an advance and was done by William Morris. I mean I'm doing Morris and Time Warner did the book you know you're figuring like OK this is gonna be the book you know because I'm never going to do it again right.

Doug: [00:02:31] I know I was going to write seven so far with an eighth coming but so you put everything in it and I said I really like Dr. Seuss a lot. And I said I wonder if we could create kind of a Dr. Seuss like storyline about creativity and how as we old you know we get stupid. I think we talked about that recently. Can I talk about how to bring people back to life and in today's world trip we got so much negativity so much live there that I figured we needed to have a smile this week. And so the idea was to give ourselves a little bit of fun. And so with my dear friend David Walker the most amazing writer on planet earth who is my co-author on the book and Randy masala who did some just inspired artwork and with a nod of the head to Ted Geisel who is no better known as Dr. Seuss. We we wrote this crazy little story about a character named Yank and how you think it is what it's called.

Doug: [00:03:33] And of course to it being that idea that you need to find it and we tell a story of young growing up joining the workaday grind and then his boss Mr. Herman MC Moss very squishy and type character.

Doug: [00:03:48] And you got to see the art if you can because it really hits. It's got a hilarious. Is he got a real problem and then yank is is trust struggling and struggling to find the answer. And then Yinkling named Perl that would be his daughter tells him to ease up dad and come on get a grip and and with a sense of play he relaxes his mind. And the best it this side of Topeka. Oh okay okay okay. Cheese ball way to get your freak name in it. But you know it is just a fun and foolish story that really I don't know. It just it makes you smile and yes it's over the top.

Doug: [00:04:34] It's not great art but it was the way we ended the book The Jumpstart Your Brain book which is now in its second edition Jumpstart Your Brain 2.0. So we recorded it. I recorded it with the images it just made you know just with the pages flipping by if you're at a device where you can see the video with this podcasting do it if you're not if you're driving don't stop trying to look like you're driving. But you know you can see it on on a desktop or patters. I get I don't know how that stuff works but we've got it out there and here it is.

Doug: [00:05:10] Hi this is Doug Hall author of the new book Driving Eureka. But for this video I'm going back in time to my first book jumpstart your brain to tell you a little story about Yank there once was a Yank who knew how to think he was especially good at pretending this Yank was a guy with his head in the sky he could dream sweet dreams without ending when you think was a kid dreaming was all that he did and he often would think a great thought while his pals watch TV you could set his mind free to invent which he did quite a lot he thought of umbrella hats of an electric ball bat that never misses whenever it swings of shoes with large wings and kites without strings to name but a few of Yanks idea things but the older he grew the less this Yank knew or so he thought when he started in school he learned to draw straight and to never be late. But mostly he learned dreams are for fools Yank decided to try to grow a necktie he bought a dozen identical suits and quick as a blink Yank learn not to think in meetings with corporate recruits Yank turned off his mind joined the workaday grind and got a job with a reputable firm. He bought an average home with an average loan which he pledged to repay on a 30 year term. Then one day Yang's boss a Mr. Herman McManus told employees the outlook was dire sales were crawling.

Doug: [00:06:44] Profits were falling said Mike Moss our fat's in the fire what we need is in it a great it to it an idea to fill rivals with fear and it won't quit and it with true grit and who I choose for the job is right here. Mike Moss pointed to yank who wanted to shrink to the size of a little bug here for yanked out and not if it wasn't God he'd most assuredly be out on his rear. What is it you mean. Asked his gills green by an it that won't quit with true grit said McMoss. Don't ask. This job is your task. All I know is I'll know it when I see it so Yank sat and thought he was in a tight spot. He grimaced and grimaced and groaned all his it's were the same each one of them lame his brain dribbled and dribbled and groaned Yank thought a lot so hard did he think he practically turned orange purple and pink and yet he could draw a straight line and be right on time but he'd forgot how ideas are made silly jotted a note to pass off as it so he hoped to escape the boss's office unscathed unfortunately Mr. Mc Moss did not see yanks it in a positive light this it is the pits make my sadness in it not even close it's nowhere in sight then Herman McMorris became particularly cross I'm not yanking you yank I want it's the don't clink it's your it your it is rinky dink further pork here it stinks you ask yet again for a how what why when for a hint we're in it could be found said Mike Moss you got me. But I'll know when I see. Please don't ask me right now to expound it grew so morose he turned white as a ghost. He barely kept a stiff upper lip that night his little girl a Yinkling named Pearl said he's up Dad. Come on get a grip let's play dad it's fun you chase and I'll run. Never mind all those it's ends in bits. Let's run through a yard and play really hard.

Doug: [00:09:08] So they did and yank forgot all about it's and after a while yank started to smile the best it this side of Topeka popped into his head and instantly said a Christian this it a Eureka we I'm sorry it quickly pricked up and promptly worked up a Eureka Report right away it wasn't hard what he did he just thought like a kid his boss didn't quite know what to say you know it's pretty hard to rhyme with Eureka Okay so it's a stretch you think you've done yourself proud. I'll say it out loud said McMoss on the corporate P.A. your ink is pure gold your ink breaks the mold it's the best it ever.

Doug: [00:09:53] Hurray because of yanks it Mc Moss Inc scored a hit and you his boss had much occasion for laughter and it became Yinks style to think like a child and he lived happily long ever after that my friends is the story of Yank that's it written by my dear friend Mr. David Walker and with me as well as Randy Moss Zola doing the art and if you want to see amazing stories the greatest writer on this planet Mr. David Walker at Brand flick or you can connect to us at the Eureka ranch innovation during all the foolishness as well as the amazing brain brew custom whisk(e)y.

Doug: [00:10:39] Hey have fun folks and hug your child today. OK I haven't good authority. All of us were at one time four years old. You've got it within you. You've got it within you let's have fun OK.

Tripp: [00:10:55] So this.It's it's very cheesy. It's got it's got a message in it. Which which is good that I like and as I'm listening to it I'm saying. Well that's pretty much everybody as we get more obligations and there's things that we do and as as you mentioned earlier about you know as adults as we age we get you know we become more stupid from a standpoint of that we aren't creative and we are thinking in terms of anything other than our obligations and things that we have to do. And we've lost this creativity associated with it. Now that I pulled the right things from the story.

Doug: [00:11:41] Yeah yeah. I mean you know yank as I said he could draw a straight line and be right on time but it forgot how ideas are made. And so we we lose that spirit.

Doug: [00:11:53] Now I'm not saying that a four year old's more creative than you. That's not what I'm saying because they don't know how to make the thing real but there is a sense of free spiritedness as my daughter Victoria says as a little child once we were we were driving and I said oh we've got to get there we're not going to make it we're not going to make it.

Doug: [00:12:12] And she said Daddy miracles can happen. Don't forget them you know. And that is so true. You don't presuppose things let your mind go. There'll be plenty of time for planning and organizing and doing it but just released cause I got to tell you it's just more fun. You know when you just let the mind go in and you can do this but the stresses and strains around you just it doesn't make life fun. I mean at the end of the day you know we're all going to die. Right. So we're not have a little bit of fun in the process before we get there.

Tripp: [00:12:55] Ok. And don't forget to look in the show notes for the Yink link. How do you like that. See I'm having fun.

Doug: [00:13:07] You know what's amazing is we actually had marionettes made of Yink you know wouldn't you.

Doug: [00:13:13] Oh that guy makes like a cat by Arrow. So we have an area that that's nice. I mean it's just fun. I mean life is too short. Look let's have fun

Tripp: [00:13:35] It's time now for the Driving Eureka! book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall.

Tripp: [00:13:48] Let's moved to our book excerpt than our book segment which is much easier for me to say. Still on the theme of fun is fundamental. Now you go through how I got to tell you Doug. You know as I'm reading through. Well Mike

Tripp: [00:14:08] You get serious there for a minute when you go through the research that you know that came out of people you know having fun and they're more creative and I thought this is great for me. You know as far as that then you get into the ideas of things you can do to have fun. And I'm sitting there and I don't know if you get through all these but it folks if you go read the newsletter four through seven please don't do this because you're going to get reported to h r you know in your company for doing these things. I know that's the setup for this. There is. Go ahead.

Doug: [00:14:45] There is science that says that humor works OK. They've done studies when people are laughing versus not laughing they come up with more creative ideas and there's a famous study from the University of Maryland where students are watching outtakes bloopers from TV shows were more successful coming up with solutions 300 to 500 percent by the way not five or 10 percent 300 to 500 percent to come up with solutions than the group watching the math on the area under the curve. Not exactly. And so you know laughing is easy. We just have to open ourselves up so so the amazing David Walker and I. So this is an excerpt from Jumpstart Your Brain 2.0. My first book and and we had some methods to help you get a good belly laugh in case you're mentally constipated and you need some help.

Doug: [00:15:37] And these are all these are not politically correct and I'm just saying.

Tripp: [00:15:42] These are before the metoo movement definitely.

Doug: [00:15:46] This is more like you're going into a standup comedian who is off the record. OK. So I'm just going to tell it the way it is. So I just read a couple of them check out a country music karaoke night at any holiday inn near any Japanese auto plant in the Midwest. OK distribute a couple dozen would be cushions to your fellow passengers the next time you take a bus a plane or the Staten Island Ferry. By the way you should know that. Well the book opens with the story of me being in a very overpriced resort and there in the middle of the Rocky Mountains with a about 300 top executives from incisor Bush and they didn't know it but underneath their seats I had taped a would be cushion at the appropriate moment. I had that I literally had my own imprinted woodpecker shoes and they would blow up the would be cushions and we would have one giant flatulence. It was glorious.

Tripp: [00:16:46] So that the Guinness World Book of World Records then what good are you getting with this you know. And and so there's all kinds of craziness down in here.

Doug: [00:17:00] I remember one one I had a young fella came to work for me as a as an apprentice. This is before Trump we used to call him apprentices before the TV show and he said that he laughed at this one so much that he actually did it just for four for giggles. I think they might have been drinking on campus I'm not sure. But no. There's a whole bunch of here. You can read them on the newsletter is wrap your arms and legs in aluminum foil wrap a football helmet in foil and put it on your head attached to attached to aluminum pipe hands side by side and wear them as a chest protector to shield and sword from cardboard and wrapped them in foil to walk up and down the sidewalk in front of your house or apartment brandishing the sword what your neighbors

Tripp: [00:17:46] Are going to call the police. Paul they're going to call the police in your case. They probably expect it. But if I did something like that the police would be there in like five minutes.

Doug: [00:17:57] Just got to have fun. My dear friend Chip Thompson author of the book What a great idea and really just a spectacular creative expert. I mean just wanted one of the greats. He told me that he'd done some research he found that the average five year old laughs about 110 times a day. Mm hmm. Okay 5 as we laugh it drops by age 44 we laugh only eleven times a day. And it only goes up upon retirement so it's like we laugh as a kid and we laugh when we're older and in the middle we live this you know Drudge O-E-O or you know we just die woke up already.

Doug: [00:18:39] Let's have some fun. Let's not take it seriously. And in the process 300 to 500 percent so when the boss comes by says Why are you laughing. I'm trying to be creative boss. Remember remember the annual report says we're innovative and creative.

Tripp: [00:18:54] So I'm just doing what the there you get sent to the loony bin. I got to ask this question Doug. Have you done or been trained in improv is it just just you.

Tripp: [00:19:10] Is it just Doug I know I'm not.

Doug: [00:19:13] I don't know anything about improv I look like I try to know what I try to do is to live in the moment which I guess that's what improvisers. Yeah. I mean at its essence improv is you are fully present in the moment and when your mind sparks something you speak before you think of that problem anyway I'm not sure that's what I think it's about being fully present and and be present listen observe and just let the mind go don't constrain it you know mentally constipated you know it is always what we get and and we just need to let it go let it go.

Tripp: [00:19:55] So so is there is there something directly somebody could take from let's say what's let's go kind of go back to the create sessions that we talked about in the last episode. Is there a way to set up these scripts. I know you said criticism too bad that it was from the last episode but then utilizing d do you start with people watching a funny film first thing they know how do you how do you get people to ready to do create.

Doug: [00:20:23] Well I mean we've got we've got a bunch of things that we do but but one of the one of the biggest ones is is to just get you know we take them through an approach to use free associating off of ideas and allowing one idea to be get another idea another idea. And and and and I'll challenge them as this is it's amazing if you tell people to be foolish and have fun. They are literally directing a group. If you say I want you to come up with outrageous ideas. They they do it. If you say I want you have serious ideas. They do that. And so when you set the tone as the facilitator as the leader to say I want to just take these things over the top let's just have some fun with this go beyond reasonable. It's easy to tame down than it is to push out so start from the outrageous and bring it in. People naturally like to go with that. And and because that's the rules and rule people that follow rules will follow the rule because that's what they've been told to do. OK but you can't assume that they'll do it. You have to basically lead them into into having an openness and having some laughs. And again you know one of the things that I do if I'm in a room and I'm not the leader but the group is like going nowhere. I've learned if I stay three really stupid things. It changes the tone of the whole conversation. You know with a smile. I mean I'm not being mean but in a smile just say them in a fun way and have some fun with it.

Tripp: [00:21:52] So. So this is you know as I hear you talking. And so even from some of the previous episodes that we've done you know this is one of the reasons why innovation I think almost has to be separate from the rest of the or another reason why innovation needs to be separate separate from the rest of the things that you have going on on a daily basis that it needs kind of its own focus that you need to be pulled pulled out of your kind of current day to day grind in order to be creative and to have a portion of your thought associated with just being creative is that does that fit the narrative of what innovation is about.

Doug: [00:22:43] I really I really hope not. OK. I really hope not. I mean that is the existing belief.

Doug: [00:22:48] Ok but why should only certain people have fun at certain moments and everybody else have drudgery. They have to fix. They have to turn around and they've got problem solving they're going to do. Everybody's got problem solving we're about enabling innovation by everyone everywhere every day. And so it should. There's a time and a place for it obviously. But you know when we're problem solving we should open up our minds and it should be something that everyone embraces not just a few people at a few times. It's like you know I joked before about being Jehad the time we will wear casual clothes between Memorial Day and Labor Day. After that we go back to serious suits you know. I mean come on really really. You know everybody should have the fun and it needs to become part and that's what happens when you get a culture of innovation which is I know it's crazy but that's what we're trying to do now.

Tripp: [00:23:47] I guess I wasn't necessarily trying to dismiss people from doing it but that. Are you referencing that it needs to really be integrate. I'm just saying when you're creating ideas I mean do you have to be focused on doing that. I mean granted an idea may come up at any time during the course of your work or are something associated with that but doesn't it require a group of people kind of getting together a diverse group as we've talked about before and coming up with meaningfully unique ideas in order to come up with a focused effort on getting our mind out of what we're doing every day and going. Going after that I'm not maybe I'm not expressing that in the right terms or correctly. Does that does that resonate with you at all or is that you do you still see it as something that's just part of what you do.

Doug: [00:24:43] I think in this life it's life. It's how you live. OK. It's a 24/7 thing. You're either open to fight working smarter and finding new ways of doing it or you're turning your mind on and off. And what I want to get to is I want to get to not turning it on and off. I wanted to be on all the time.

Tripp: [00:24:59] Ok. All right. Well that that probably is the best statement of explanation of what your thought is on that then

Tripp: [00:25:11] This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcast. Well we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whisk(e)y distillery. This Eureka ranch team led by Doug Hall. Are Creating a craft whisk(e)y Company. With patented technology Like has never been done before.

Tripp: [00:25:33] Ok well let's move to the brain brew whisk(e)y Academy the importance of fun in the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y. Say you're applying fun everywhere you go.

Tripp: [00:25:46] I got it. Now it's integrated into the culture that you're building with the brain brew folks. Give me some examples.

Doug: [00:25:54] Well I got to tell you that I think when your craft company people can feel your feelings when you created the product that in those products they can get the sense of joy. That means to call it fun call it Joy call it whatever you want. They can get the feeling of it and and it's sad because many whiskies have become especially the very expensive ones have become so damn serious. You know I mean it's a leather chair in a wood paneled room with a crystal decanter and a glass of you know fine sipping whisk(e)y. Yes. Yes. I mean it's like I mean. You know I mean whisk(e)y was made it was a working man's thing and it was fun. And and I think that joy needs to be brought into it. And and and it's coming I mean David Walker when it was written with books and hopefully we're gonna do the next book together. He taught me when we were writing something if when we were reading it to edit it we laughed at what one or other of us even though we knew the joke. We laughed again that we said. My guess is people will laugh the first time they read it. In other words if we're not amazed and having fun with the thing then nobody else is going to have fun. It's where we end up with organizations. OK. I'm going to deadly seriously make this so that people can have fun. No town work that way. You got to get that spirit into the thing and you got to open yourselves up to those sayings in and in the case of whisk(e)y. Yes we do that whisk(e)y. I mean taking 200 year would I mean Virgin American would from an old barn that's come down from whisk(e)y at the time of the riverboats.

Doug: [00:27:47] That's that's nuts. OK. It's crazy and it's crazy fun because you taste it and you go Oh my God that's like totally different than today's whisk(e)y because the wood and the trees grew. This what we use in our paddle wheel product was totally different back then and that's awesome.

Doug: [00:28:03] And and but the place where it really goes crazy is cocktails. I mean remember we've talked to dating 18 percent. Very big huge megaton study stupidly expensive you know tens of thousands of people across America 18 percent drank whisk(e)y in the last twelve months. OK. I mean 82 percent didn't but when I go to cocktails I can get you know 75 80 percent of them are going to like it because you know a cocktail made with whisk(e)y as the backdrop gives it a richness that you're not going to get with vodka you're not going to give a gin and you're not going to get it with rum that's a whole different dimension. And why are the top cocktails made with whisk(e)y. Because that's how you get that real complexity of taste and you get these magical things that have all of these tensions that come together. And so cocktails is where you can really rip it and have fun. If you make your whisk(e)y for Congress that's why we do this custom cocktail experience where we take you through we have you taste like we'll start out with an old fashioned and we'll take our riverboat series and we'll give you for old fashions with four different whiskeys and people in the industry old puckered people will say well when you make cocktail don't matter what whisk(e)y you put in it.

Doug: [00:29:21] Well you're wrong it's wrong old man because if you taste you taste an old fashioned made with the four our four core whiskeys and you go Oh my God it's a totally different cocktail and then we start to show people about high balls and cocktails and the ratios. And we have them go through an experience and we generally connect it up around the four seasons. So spring summer winter fall cocktails throughout the seasons and in the moments and and all of a sudden you know people that maybe never had one or had one or two are open up their mind they go Oh my God this amazingly interesting things and then we teach them how to customize it for themselves because you know so when you go to a bartender trip and you ask for a cocktail especially a whisk(e)y cocktail they might ask you a couple questions. What what do you like with this. And you don't know it but they're adapting your cocktail without you even knowing it they're adjusting which whisk(e)y they take. Do they start with ride. They start with bourbon they start with American for grain product.

[00:30:26] They're playing with is it an ounce and a half or two ounces of whisk(e)y. Are they gonna do one teaspoon of simple syrup or two. I mean they're making adaptations trying to guess what you're going to like. That's why when you go to a really great bar you have the cocktail. Oh my God that's amazing. What's it called. They tell you the name you go home. You can't make it because they've adapted it and we've gotten a brain but we've gotten really really good at this. People come in to the bar at the at the Ranch and our tasting room and they have a drink and they go Oh my God. That is so amazing. I can't believe how that was so good the way you made that. And then we educate so we show them the trick. It's OK for you. This is what I did. And for him I made it this way. Now hit had no taste the difference. Goat cheese yes an amazing difference. And so we're enabling people to make their own cocktails so that they can have do it. And then it's just plain fun. I mean it's just fun.

Tripp: [00:31:22] Yeah. Now I have to off to say I started out when you first started introducing these cocktails. You know I had a lot of fun with the martini. I mean it was just funny. So few people go back to that that particular episode. And I can't remember which one it is off the top of my head. But the. The martini and how you went about making it what it was. It was just kind of a fun episode anyway. But but I. But since then you know I made the Sazerac and I had some friends over actually this past weekend and we made the Sazerac and we also made the bourbon milk punch and the Sazerac. It you know it's funny you set it up very well which is you're either going to really like it or you're really gonna like it because that was kind of the reaction.

Tripp: [00:32:14] For instance my daughter. She she didn't like the Sazerac but good friends of ours Marvin and Misty Brown. They they tried it and they loved the Sazerac and that kind of liquor ish tastes now like I said I don't pour out all that absinthe because it's expensive. Associated with that. And then at the Super Bowl I made the bourbon look punch and people like that. I mean it was just. And I think people just had fun trying something different something that they they didn't have before.

Tripp: [00:32:56] And you know it's an excuse. Like you said an experiment. I don't I'm not doing a team type of experience experiments you do. I'm just so you know enjoying your cocktails or having fun with it. That's right. OK.

Doug: [00:33:11] So you know I'm going to give people a homework. OK OK. So here's the first part. Go to the gym go to the Web site for the podcast or dark hall dot com in. Click on it to get there and you can open some newsletters or maybe trip maybe finally we should just make a document that has every cocktail.

Tripp: [00:33:29] So yeah. It's on my. It's on my list.

Doug: [00:33:31] Ok. So let's what you can get that and pick three of the cocktails that are least familiar with you at least familiar with another other words don't I don't want you to turn around and just you know do what. Oh I know that. No. Try something different and give them a try. OK. They're all proven and reliable. If you want to listen to the episode right describe it in more detail but you know try something new to get get a new taste then part two is I want you to then start to mess with it. So riff off it. So last week we talked about the Algonquin where we took pineapple replaced it with grapefruit juice start to do your own riffs on these things. That's what this is about. OK. This is about fun and bringing together and when you get something cool give it a name and a recipe and go to the dog Hall Facebook page and post it post it and let's make a celebration of fun whisk(e)y cocktails and share them with one another. Yeah.

Tripp: [00:34:27] You know and for me you know I'm tonight I bought all the stuff yesterday for the whisk(e)y the whisk(e)y sour to make with the orange and the lemon and the lime and for me it will be I'm not using that.

Tripp: [00:34:43] Yes. And the zest. But that also I've never used anything other than a mix before.

Tripp: [00:34:48] So for me that back. Stop. Stop. How do you know. OK. So.

Tripp: [00:34:59] So I'm going to go just craft it. You know the way the way you describe. And for me that's a step up. You know. So before I was using to mix quit using mixes maybe one of the things that you try as far as far as a homework and and doing this because you do get to the actual raw ingredients that go into these cocktails. And for me that's that's a change. That's that's something that's very different for me because I never really thought about it. It's just easier.

Doug: [00:35:29] Ever go back even. And and it is a pain in the butt for some of the cocktails to squeeze limes in limes when stupidly expensive. A year ago but the squeeze limes to squeeze lemons. I don't care. There is not a single bottled or canned lemon or lime juice out there. They're just not worth drink. I've tried them all because it's such a pain in the butt to squeeze them all the time. But I got to tell you you make them side by side. You will never ever have you'll never go back to the bottled crap you just want. Just won't. Because the fresh is amazingly better. Amazing. Now it's really good for about 24 hours. But you can leave it for three or four days and you're still going to be way ahead of the others. That can be as good as it was fresh but it's still going to be amazing. You know it's just going to be amazing and just put its group but get a Scrooge up on a little jar or something and close it up put it in your fridge so that you can have it I have I always have lemon juice lime juice. I'm starting to do more and more with grapefruit so I'm starting to have grapefruit all the time so that I've got stuff to play with I was a cocktail.

Tripp: [00:36:38] Yeah. And you know maybe that's something else we we cover off the episode is you know I've got a whole bunch of new bar tools before I had a cobbler shaker. I mean that's and I didn't even know it was called a cobbler shaker. And then you introduced me to the Boston shaker. So There's different things happening other than just you know the drinks themselves. Now in your newsletter for the first time now I haven't seen this before. You've got the keelboat. You've talked about some of these the Keel boat the paddle wheel the Deck hand and Tall stacks and I'll be sure to put that picture also in the show notes and then you have each of the drinks. It looks like you've got the bourbon milk punch. I'm not sure this looks like the one of the embassy.

Doug: [00:37:22] That's the second one's embassy embassy. You've got you've you've got a gold rush and a boulevard.

Tripp: [00:37:28] Ok so so you've got this four by the way maybe one of the future things you need to put on your list a dog is to make non boring glasses. You need to have the dog Hall glasses to go with these creative drinks that you have something that looks fun and I don't know. They all look the same. But anyway there's always something that's out there. But that's the first time I've seen that the four that are out there. Can you briefly go through what these are and what are these are these are products.

Doug: [00:38:00] These are actually just these these are prototypes that you're seeing those are just prototype labels. I'll tell you in the image but as we talk Cincinnati pre prohibition was it really was a commercial home of whisk(e)y. There was more whisk(e)y made in Cincinnati and in the surrounding areas going into into Kentucky and that and owned by folks in Cincinnati than anywhere on the planet. There was literally ten times the value of whisk(e)y made in Cincinnati was ten times that of beer. And we're a German town. There was a lot of beer being made. So this was the epicenter and it was primarily because it was it was the Queen City of the West. It was the market town where the steamboats came to ship down to New Orleans into the world. And so it was it was the time so in making this line we made this just for Cincinnati that we're going to introduce coming up and it's really celebrating the Cincinnati as this place with the riverboats. And so it's. And they go in order up to more intensive notice if you would the first one is Keel boat. It's a four grain easy drinking product. We've got some unique twists on this saying and it celebrates the key about secure boats were the ones that would you know you flat boats first that would just float with the current keel boats had a keel and you could now steer them. So rather than just push with poles you could actually steer them a little bit.

Doug: [00:39:21] So what's the next step up of boats. And and so we celebrate Keel boat kind of slowly going down the water nice and easy. It's a four grain product. It's got a high wheat content to it very smooth. It makes very if you're new to whisk(e)y it's great. It is the ultimate cocktail it is no speed bumps in it it's just a very it's like velvet. It's really really really nice. It's a 40 percent alcohol product. OK. Next up is really the flagship of the line it's called Paddle wheel. This is celebrating the paddle boats and the bridge in Cincinnati. You can see in the background of the image Toby did these incredible artwork and it's full label art like you see on wine bottles. Again not something that's done on on whisk(e)y bottles. And and the paddle wheel uses 200 year wood. So we take old wood from an old barn down in Kentucky. We clean it off cut it up and it's actually cleaner than the wood that you get today because there was less pollutants when the trees were growing. And it gives you a taste. It's the closest you can get it's a bourbon 45 percent alcohol bourbon. It gives you the taste of what whisk(e)y would have tasted like you know back at 100 years ago. And in fact I've had 1920 1930 whiskeys that had the same character to it.

Doug: [00:40:44] In fact a top whisk(e)y expert over in Edinburgh we tasted he says OK now I'm upset with you. I said why. He says now you've got the finish of old whiskies. How the hell are you doing that. I said it's old wood. He says it totally figures that the wood was different back then. So this is an amazing this is our flagship bourbon. This this adds more richness to your cocktails. So if you want a little bit more richness you're going to get more there and it's. And it is about the corn but it's more about the wood that's going to do that than the next one goes over the top. It's called deck hand and it's also subtitled The Working Man's rye. And this is a rye whisk(e)y a 95 percent rye whisk(e)y 48 percent alcohol just like rise are up a little bit higher. And this product really celebrates the working man. And it's really a celebration for bartenders bartenders love this product because it really gives if you want a more whisky forward. This has five different woods in it. So we're using 200 year wood. We're using young American oak. We're using European oak. We're using maple and we're using cherry wood. And so you've got five woods that give this complex yet smooth rye like nothing else. I mean the rise. I rise regularly. People just go out of their minds for because it's a totally different type of ride than what you're used to.

Doug: [00:42:06] Usually they're really hot and spicy. This is just it's it's an elegance that's just just amazing makes great cocktails. And then last in the line is Tall Stacks that the big stacks on the steamboats. Now we're at the time of the steamboats so we've moved up up the line here and and so and this is a three wood smoked and so now we're getting that smoke cloud in the background. Either love it a lot or not. It's like the Islay as Islay whiskeys the smoke whisk(e)y is repeated whiskeys are to Scottish whisk(e)y. This is to bourbon. This is a bourbon and and you either think this is the greatest thing you've ever seen. In fact the photo that you're seeing the fellow that took the photo tasted him and he's like I need some of that tall stacks. People just go crazy and it makes a cocktail like you've never seen before. But it is a it's a more specialty thing. You've got to be pretty intense if you like aioli you're going to love this. And if you like smoked food really smoked food you're just going to go out of your mind when you taste this. It's also I will tell you if you have a mal Peck oyster from Prince Edward Island and you pour a little bit of this on it it's heaven heaven.

Tripp: [00:43:16] See I like that. And this is more inside information like that Timberwolf that you had me try probably six months ago or maybe longer than that.

Doug: [00:43:25] Yeah it's a rum product that is a rum OK.

Tripp: [00:43:28] All right. All right very good.

Tripp: [00:43:32] So are these going to be just available then in the Cincinnati area ultimately. OK. Yes.

Doug: [00:43:37] Just Cincinnati and we're just it's just maybe a local product celebrating the local local word and and tribute. You mentioned Sazerac that you like the That's right. So I thought I said that's so I'm the cocktail this week is a twist on Assad's Iraq. It's called Remember the Maine. And this is a 1939 cocktail by Charles Baker. It's part Sazerac and part Manhattan and it's named after the U.S. naval ship the Maine as in the state that mysteriously exploded and sank off the coast of Havana Cuba which was controlled by Spain and of course in 1898. And this is what caused the spark the Spanish American War and led to Cuban independence. But so what we do with this is this has got some up to it. So we're starting with.

Doug: [00:44:30] Two ounces of our deckhand rye that we just talked about or another craft rye. So it's it's a big taste.

Doug: [00:44:35] Three quarters of an ounce of sweet vermouth.

Doug: [00:44:38] A half ounce of Cherry Herring which is a cherry liqueur.

Doug: [00:44:42] And a teaspoon of absinthe and you generally stir this and then strain it into a I again I'm really liking these Martini glasses. I just think it gives a nice elegance to upgrades the cocktails although you could serve it over the rocks too but you've got the vermouth and the Rye of a Manhattan but you've got the absinthe of a Sazerac. So it's kind of this twist between the two and I just think it just brings some fun to it did you know what people that are Manhattan. I want a Manhattan one of Manhattan. I want to say as our hero says right. And all of a sudden you do this kind of flip which you've got a real history to it. And I just think it it just brings a little bit of fun to people and gives them a new experience.

Tripp: [00:45:24] Ok. All right well that got another one for me to try. Now you're at have get go out and get the Cherry herring cherry Liquor let's use in something else but I can't remember what the what the drink was that that they had or maybe it was just that a conscious thing.

Doug: [00:45:40] There's also there's also another thing. There's another version called luxardo just used in the Hemingway are the Hemingway Dockery or Martini uses like Sardo. I've not made remember the Maine with Luxardo I should probably try it that way. There's an old joke that you know if you've got a cocktail every cocktail will be made better if you add like Sardo or champagne. You know it's classically what to do it Cherry herrings got a little different character than looks like it has to it it's got more arbitrariness to it.

Tripp: [00:46:18] So okay well maybe that'll be your homework then try to look smart it.

Doug: [00:46:23] Yeah I stocked my my bar stocks both because you know. But again I'm crazy I guess.

Tripp: [00:46:30] So there was some time where you have to get a picture of what's inside Doug's bar. Probably a whole episode on its own. All right. So have fun everyone. That's the key to making good whisk(e)y and products and everything else. Yeah

Doug: [00:46:47] Life's too short. Let's have some fun.

Tripp: [00:46:54] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for a limited time. For thing. A. One hour abridged audio driving you read the book. A subscription to the driving Eureka newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast track big ideas and the newsletter. Has other offers. That. Are not. A public. Be driving Eureka prescription for success. You answer questions and we'll help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas. And. You get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate. And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend. To get these offers. Go to w w w dot Doug Hall dot com forward slash

Tripp: [00:47:52] Podcast. And don't forget to subscribe. To the driving Eureka podcast on iTunes.

Driving Eureka! Newsletter 18

This is the 18th episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: Beyond Reasonable Innovation; Segment 2: Two Rules for Creating Ideas; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:01] The Driving Eureka! Podcast Episode #18

[00:00:33] Episode 18 - Being Beyond Reasonable

[00:01:08] The James Taylor Concert - Over the Top

[00:04:01] To Stressed to Innovate?

[00:05:31] Creativity Not for Every Business?

[00:06:59] An Encounter at Kinkos

[00:10:03] No Tools or Training = Problems

[00:11:01] Driving Eureka! Book Segment

[00:11:13] Two Rules for Create Sessions

[00:11:53] Alex Osborne - Invented Brainstorming Book: How to Think Up

[00:12:24] Osborn - Two Rules

[00:14:50] How to Engage All as an Executive

[00:15:47] Keep the Executive Out of Create Sessions?

[00:19:03] Quantity Creates Quality

[00:19:36] We're Going to Need a Bigger Drill Bit

[00:20:33] Dumb ideas Can Spark Big Ideas

[00:21:22] Tendency to Relax After a Big Idea

[00:22:39] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:25:27] Brain Brew Wants Complexity

[00:27:40] Besides Wood What Learnings are the Next Thing

[00:30:56] What is Heritage Grain?

[00:33:40] Craft Cocktail Recipe - Algonquin Cocktail

[00:34:48] Step 1

[00:34:57] Step 2

[00:35:03] Step 3

[00:35:15] Step 4

[00:35:16] Step 5

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas.

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whisk(e)y  maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka ranch and author of the driving Eureka book.

Tripp: [00:00:33] This is episode number 18 of the Driving Eureka! podcast. And in this episode we're going to talk about being beyond a reasonable so the new innovation standard is beyond reasonable. That innovations can be meaningful wonderful better than expected. So first of all with the theme that you pick for this newsletter what was the what was the inspiration.

Doug: [00:01:08] So my high school sweetheart and my wife of many many years Debbie for Christmas gave me tickets for us to go see James Taylor and his all star band with Bonnie Raitt. And so we went to the show and I like James Taylor I'd seen him before was you know I was ready for him to be sitting on a stool playing the guitar. You know the typical James Taylor kind of tour right. And the show blew me away. It just absolutely blew me away. Okay. I mean you know OK City that they did the little stuff right OK. They started on time I hate it when you get there and they start 20 minutes late. He started on time the headliner Bonnie Raitt was not a warm up. It was a real show. I mean are a world class show. The band you know he says himself. And the all star band you know and that wasn't just marketing b.s. I mean this was like incredible artists and and they were treated by him and onstage with solos that were not just your token ones but I'm I mean I'm talking like ridiculously good and then the set you know you think of James Taylor you think of like coffeehouse you know who you know here with basketball. Yeah. We weren't talking about ridiculous state of the art video projection moving three dimensional elements and video directing where thus it was like it was like a movie you were watching not just you know some numb nuts hitting buttons flipping from Camera three to camera two and play video.

Doug: [00:02:53] I mean it was really choreographed. I mean I guess is the only other word for it. And but then despite all of this. So this is like big rock show. I mean he's rocking it out at times then it's then he did the stool thing but the video took you to a whole nother planet. When he was doing it but you know despite there's probably about 14000 people in the arena you still felt like you were sitting in a coffeehouse because both he and Bonnie were able to be fully present in the moment and they were like having a conversation with you. I mean it was truly amazing and as I'm going out I'm thinking what did they do. And I said no what they did is they went beyond reasonable and they didn't dare start with being proper imprudent. They didn't do the things that I expected. They didn't just tick the boxes and be good enough. They got too good and then they went to ridiculous and then they went so far beyond reasonable that your head just blew out. I mean even the on call at the end was like OK I've had everything I could have. And then they just blew you away again.

Doug: [00:04:01] And so I realized that when we do new things part of it is we're stressed when we do innovation we're stressed to get it done with stress to get the work done. We've got so much to do to ship or whether it's a new service or a new system. There's so much work to do that we end up compromising compromising compromising and but that's not what's going to help you win what's gonna help you win is get the fundamentals down. Get your meaningful uniqueness in. And then after you've got your meaningful uniqueness. Now how can you go to ridiculously beyond reasonable. That's how you create raving fans not customers but raving fans. That's how you end up with some old fart boasting that James Taylor is one of the coolest concerts I've ever seen. And and and Springsteen of course is at the top. You got Springsteen up there at the top because the boss is the boss. But this was truly amazing. And I don't care if you like James Taylor or not see this show. It is a work of real artistry and caring to do something amazing and that's what we've got to get into our innovations. We've got to get that soul and you know Tripp we've talked about craft and this is this is the embodiment of the spirit of craft we really really care and just amazing just amazing.

Tripp: [00:05:31] So you know I say listen to you Doug and I and I go through this and I know you to be a very creative guy in the first place and the fact that that you pointed out this concert as being something unbelievable tells me something that is probably true. Unbelievable because I think it would be a lot for you to be impressed by that but I'm also. But there's also one side of me and I probably share this with a lot of people which is OK. But they're artists they're creative people anyway. And you know they're constantly coming up with their think new things that's that's their that's their gig that's they've got to come up with new songs they've got to come up with new ways to present themselves to the public. Those types of thing but I'm a banking or I'm in doing heating and cooling H fact types of things and organizations. I don't I mean that's great for them because that's I guess that's their industry but our industry is the be proper and prudent. So so so what what am I missing.

Doug: [00:06:32] Well OK so so let's take that in two steps. OK. One is that OK see you work at a proper prudent bank. That's well respected and well done. OK. So all you have to do is just do your job and everything will be fine that doesn't create growth that doesn't create raving fans that just says they're not stupid. OK. They're doing what I expected James Taylor does not need.

Doug: [00:06:59] In fact one of the things that struck me is my God he must really care a lot because he has no need. This guy's legend status. Okay. He can just walk out and sit on the damn stool. He didn't need to have a band of 10 All Stars which means 10 egos. Let's just be clear. He didn't have to put up with that. He didn't have to have all the video craziness which what it takes you know being in the digital space a lot ourselves. How much work that takes. He did this because of his desire to give his his fans something truly amazing. I mean this was he cared to do something better. It wasn't just good enough. And I don't care what you're in but you can take it to another level beyond. I mean I mean I just went to a site called FedEx now but the old Kinko's and I was I went there to print brochures for the craft whisk(e)y  show and I did it and the guy there I walked in and I said it wasn't busy but I said I said Jeez. I and I'd like to print this he says can you make it a PDF. I said yeah but when you make it a PDF it sometimes shifts a little bit.

Doug: [00:08:08] So the margins are off. He's all man. I know exactly what you say. No problem. Yes I tell you what. Give it to me. I'll work with you let's just try it. And so we went through four times I made the PDA F and he went through to check it and then he turned around he said. He says I see the paper you're using. He says you know you can use that if you want but here let me show you this thing. And it was less money than the one I was looking at. But he says with those images you've got to have some beautiful photos of the art. He says that's gonna just really pop more. I know it's less money but I think I think it's better for you. That was given a shit you know. I mean that's beyond reasonable. That's not just like here. Let me print your thing for you. You know I mean that was beyond reasonable. I mean he took the time to do that with me. How do we fare. There wasn't a lot of line and so it was easy for him to do it but he didn't have to. He didn't have to do that. And that's what I mean.

Doug: [00:09:04] And so I don't care if you're working at Kinko's. I don't care if you're working at a bank and I don't care if you're a legendary singer songwriter. You know it's about whatever that standard is. How do you take it beyond. How do you get people to say Oh my God I can't believe what they just did.

Tripp: [00:09:22] You know in a previous episode we talked about going deep and as you were talking they're thinking of this Kinko's you know customer service aides I don't know exactly what the title would be but this person obviously had skill and deep knowledge of what looks good what it doesn't look good but it seems like there would also be competing things associated with that. Like if the line was longer or or maybe it does it doesn't have the skill associated with it. Is that what kind of pushes out some of the stuff as far as being able to be reasonable or unreasonable or beyond reasonable.

Doug: [00:10:03] I think it's a very fair point. If the workers it's fundamental Deming 94 percent the system if the worker doesn't have the tools and doesn't have the training then then it's not possible for them to even imagine how they can help and so it's a very fair point. Have you given your people. It's not a matter of just telling them to work harder. Be nice to customers. They've got to know more. They've got to know about it. They've got to know what impact different papers have on different things that you're printing. I mean if they don't if they're not taught those things and you can't get it by osmosis that's not reliable. One has it one doesn't. But are they taught those things is probably a key element why sometimes people don't know because they don't know how could they know.

Tripp: [00:10:50] It's a fair point.

Tripp: [00:11:01] It's time now for the driving Eureka book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall.

Tripp: [00:11:13] Well let's move to our Driving Eureka! book segment which is tool rules for create sessions in mass effect. Doug as I started to read this I sit there. OK. Are we moving off of our theme here going back to the create set sessions associated with beyond reasonable but you kind of pull it back into this but you identify these two rules for create session create session for people who maybe don't know is kind of the beginning of the process find filter flat fast track big ideas finding a big idea and going through the process of creating something that that's not there. So once you take us through these two.

Doug: [00:11:53] Well I mean the basic dimension here is this. Ok. So I say beyond reasonable and you go OK fine. You know what what do you mean. And so you need to have some stimulus you need to spark some stuff. We need to get the juices flowing and the best way I know is to recreate session. And as you know we've done a lot of research on the value we've talked about a stimulus and diversity and driving up fear. But at its root also there was this fellow named Alex Osborne 1942 writes a book called How to think up.

Doug: [00:12:24] And he's the guy who invented it. Yes there is a guy who invented the concept and the name brainstorming okay. And in that book he outlined two fundamental principles that were the key which are embedded in all that we teach in what's written in driving Eureka and in driving Eureka I give a shout out to the work of Alex Osborne of the New York ad agency BBDO. He was one of the O's and and so he he laid out two principles that were key which we have found today. I vowed Reveille today to them and are as true then as they were now sometimes people say three and four rules that's wrong that the book has to is what he says. And it's really true that when it comes to creating ideas and we'll just link it directly that are beyond reasonable that are really opening up our mind to the what if there are two fundamental rules. One is suspend judgment and number two is quantity creates quality so the first thing you have to do is you've got to suspend judgment when you're sitting there with ideas. If you put out an idea and you immediately kill it soon no ideas are suggested and you know if I align this with our stimulus response approach where the stimulus axis stimulus for more ideas.

Doug: [00:13:47] The minute I say something that idea sets off a chain reaction of other ideas which causes somebody to say something which causes somebody else to say something which caused somebody else to say something. Next thing you know you're at a cool idea so bad idea. Plus another idea plus another idea plus another idea equals a wicked cool idea with the basic mint. What I'm talking about the tendency we have is when people get into a negative mode is what they'll turn around and do it the minute somebody says well that's stupid. Well you never get the chain reaction that can get you to wonderful you get to nothingness. And so you have to open it up as a way to do it. And in fact one of the things I do and I tell in the newsletter one of the things that we write about the book is when I've seen you leaders their senior leaders don't realize it. But even with just their body language if they communicate. And so when I'm working with a senior leader one of the things they told me to do is I said Okay I want you to go into a group while we're creating ideas and I want you to not say anything just listen.

Doug: [00:14:50] And then the group ends so which ya get they were OK but not really that great. OK I said I have to tell you what I want you to the next group. I want you to be one of the first people to speak and I want you to say the dumbest thought you can possibly have is what I mean. I know I want you to say something stupid to expand the world and I want you to listen as well I don't know anything I said Well here I go. I'm good at stupid. So here's a couple of stupid things. Pick one of these. So they go underground. They come out after this. So what do you say. I said he said it's amazing. I said the stupid thing. Like we talked and it was amazing how many ideas came out that were better. I said Well here's what happened in their heads. They went. They have ideas. Your people have ideas. They got the ideas but they're scared to say them. It's the fear thing.

Doug: [00:15:36] But when you said something stupid they thought well at least I can say that because they ain't as dumb as well you are. Yeah I know.

Tripp: [00:15:47] Yeah I. Yeah I could. I could see that. Yeah. That's kind of manipulating the group. But but at the same time you know. You know I wonder I wonder how often Doug as you've done these where you've actually had to go to an executive. Well let's just kind of get an executive mind frame. OK I'll do the blue card you know as far as setting the mission and coming up with a narrative that sounds very executive like type of thing but my job really is judgment as most people think of their job and management, unfortunately, is to basically judge and be this kind of I don't know idolic character you know within the organization that has all the right answers. Do you find yourself often having to just kind of remove those people from the idea creating sessions because now they're so negative. I mean yeah but I mean you say I get that but. But you say no but I mean that's a tough road not only for the executive to overcome but also the fear associated with with the way so most organizations as we talked about before is run with that fear.

Doug: [00:16:57] Well but it's not as bad as that. It's really not as bad as that. Mostly they don't know. And and when you sit there and you educate them and you show them that there's a system for this that they're not expected to you know be a creative fountain. But but to to work in that it's a stimulus or response system. And that there's a system to it. Most of the time design is just sometimes they'll opt out they won't do it. But I you know it's really simple. You know you just to say hey you know what kind of. When you've had somebody that really inspired you to do something what was it like you know when you had a coach or something and that's what geez had a coach I played football or you know I go Yeah yeah.

Doug: [00:17:34] They were with the team. They were not separate from the team. They were part of the team. And and so I need you to coach I need you to give them safe space. I need you to encourage and to lead. I need you to lead not manage and and and we give them a role and we show them how to do it and we provide coaching and support to them. I mean frankly when we do innovation engineering over half the work is with the leadership in a nice way not in a mean way not in a but they've not been taught how to lead in this new world where ideas have to happen a lot faster than they used to do. The days when we could do reviews up and down the path are gone. It's too late. And so I am encouraged that there is much more of an openness to this. But you can't assume that they get it. You have to take the time to teach them and you have to coach them and support them. I mean Maggie Nicholls CEO the Ranch just told me as a client that signing on for a three year engagement to create a culture of innovation and the leader pulled her aside afterwards the CEO took her into his office and said You do know I'm going to need your help for me to do this and there's more and more of that coming. I'm very very encouraged. But you just have to do it gently. You can't you can't make them feel bad you can't make them feel stupid you can't beat them up you've got to help them. You've got to help.

Tripp: [00:19:03] Ok. Well let's talk a little bit also about this quantity creates quality piece. Now this this this is very damning. Right. So I mean this goes back to the conversation you had with your father you know that you can actually increase your productivity by having higher quality. So it kind of fits into the overall theme of kind of the Deming frame of thought but it is also counterintuitive from a standpoint of well cut its quantity create quality.

Doug: [00:19:36] So you know oftentimes what we'll say is we'll try to get to one idea and then optimize it. It's like taking one whole and continuing to drill for oil and you hit bedrock and it's just get a bigger drill bit and keep drilling instead what you want to do is to try a lot of test holes and kind of see how things are going so that you can find the way to hit oil or gold or whatever you're trying to do. And we. Dr. Andy Van Gundy bless him. He's passed from University of Oklahoma.

Doug: [00:20:07] He and I did a test where we measured teams and looked at the number of ideas it created and then we independently in this case we had Frito-Lay evaluate the ideas not knowing which team they were from for which were really big ideas and which were not And sure enough the teams that did the most ideas had the most big ideas. Now interestingly you might look at that and say OK. Yes. So they had more ideas to get more big ideas but they probably had a lot ideas that were dumb.

Doug: [00:20:33] Yeah they actually had more dumb ideas too. It's a package deal but all you need is one great one. And when you win the the what Osborne says what Van Gundy research that we did says is is that you really need to go for quantity and part of it is again the stimulus model that stimulus acts as a spark to help people come up with more ideas.

Tripp: [00:21:00] Ok. On the use of it. So is this. Is this because as the quantity and utilizing that because we've talked about stimulus before is that that as you get more and more out there that you're going further out are or did you do this research even before you really understood stimulus.

Doug: [00:21:22] We understood stimulus. But but this was a separate study that we just did. We just did. I mean they were all using Stimulus for university but it was just literally the quantities that they did because teams have a tendency we've learned over the years that the teams will have a tendency to push until they get a big idea and then they relax and in fact one of the things we learned is we would measure the productivity of ideas from the morning versus the afternoon. And generally when teams hit some big ideas in the morning we learned to go into a panic because they would then coast in the afternoon. And so there is a stupid psychology here. They start out with an anxiety I can't do it. And then they get and they go okay I got it I'm good I'm good I can blow off today you know I have a big lunch a.

Tripp: [00:22:13] Big exhale.

Doug: [00:22:15] That's right. And so I we usually turn it up after lunch and get them swept up in it and again this is all a psychology we teach it in our innovation engineering like about course. I talk a lot about it and driving Eureka. These are sort of the some of the psychological methods that you have to use to get people to do great things.

Tripp: [00:22:39] Ok. All right. Well what's move to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcast where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whisk(e)y  distillery business.

Tripp: [00:23:00] The Eureka! ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whisk(e)y  company with patented technology like has never been done before.

Tripp: [00:23:13] Beyond reasonable whisk(e)y products how do you make a wish. Well you and I both know from having conversations with people it's a pretty using your word prudent. It seems to be customers of whisk(e)y . So how do you go beyond reasonable with whisk(e)y .

Doug: [00:23:33] Well I mean first off like all craft companies beyond reasonable. It's not just a slogan it's in the DNA. I mean you're not a craft company you're not a true craft company if you don't have a beyond reasonable dimension in you that there's just a caring to just go crazy to create real fans. In the case of us you know where we have our way. Everybody's got their own way and I'm cool with that. You know we've run over 400 quantitative statistically significant taste tests to define our products and to make ourselves smarter. We had sought every piece of wood three times before we use it time compression because that would has to be exactly right before we do it. We only use air dried not kiln dried kiln dried the industry with the growth of bourbons gone to kill dried and it just doesn't have the taste character you kill a lot of the taste when you when you cook it that the air dry doesn't do. And and it costs a bit more but the flavor is amazing.

Tripp: [00:24:37] Well it was you. It was you. This kiln dried versus the air dried. You've got this compression age process that makes things go faster and it's almost like you're buying time to do your air dried as your expensive proposition versus where they're trying to get speed as on doing something kiln dried which compromises the taste. If I'm hearing what you're set of correct.

Doug: [00:25:03] Everybody's got their own house style. Our focus is we want to have richness yet clean. We want to have the richness like a Scotch has a lot more complexity versus bourbon which tends to be more simple. And just by its nature but Bourbon is a lot cleaner than than the scotches are. And so what we look for is real richness but clean.

Doug: [00:25:27] So not that singular core note in our bourbon but but a lot more complexity to it and that's our whole style. And to do that we have to go beyond reasonable on some things in order to get the style that is the style that we like to drink. And and that's what we're making so that when people taste they go Oh my God I've not heard anything like this. And I'm like well that's the idea. Good. So they ask it like a question like I've never had anything like this. I.

Doug: [00:25:56] Well I hope not because otherwise I'm glad I wouldn't be shipping it.

Tripp: [00:26:01] Is the story part of this we've talked in a previous episode about the story is going beyond reasonable is it is it is it the not just the crafting of the whisk(e)y itself but the complete package of things everything from the way it looks to the story to the.

Doug: [00:26:18] Yes it is but I'm going to be biased and I am an old fashioned make a frickin better product and that's why I like blind taste tests. That to me is the epitome of it. The problem with the marketing spin which is important you have to have it. We do that. But the problem with that is where that leads to is selling the same old crap as everybody else was just marketing flimflam on it. And and that's the taste of death. I mean you're just going to die. I'm talking about build a better product. I mean the Macallan I mean our partners.

Doug: [00:26:55] Full disclosure using sherry casks and making a commitment to them results in a taste that is tangibly meaningfully different than any other Scotch whisky in the world. I mean it's just different. I'm just sorry it is it's a different taste. You taste the Macallan you know it's an account. That's what we're trying to do and this to me one of the great challenges in all categories but whisky in particular is we've got a lot of people making good enough products that frankly if you tasted 10 of them you couldn't tell the difference between them. Those are all pretty much the same. That's not craft. That's not beyond reasonable be being reasonable is cloning. You know one of the mass market you know Johnny Jimmer Jack's products kind of thing.

Tripp: [00:27:40] Ok. And so. So as you as you start to look beyond reasonable and maybe I'm going down a path that maybe you wouldn't go down but you've you've kind of focused in on the wood you're running all these taste test and doing different things but are there other things that you're starting to look at or or you're saying that might make a difference too as far as whether it's ingredients or maybe it's just down that wood path that you're going deeper on and learning different types of wood. But if you're to look to the future of you know whisky we've talked about different drinks and things like that associate. There are other things that you're seeing on the horizon as far as things that oh you know what we ran this test at some point I'd like to go down that path. Are there other things like that that you have.

Doug: [00:28:28] Well without giving out too many secrets. Yes there are. But remember the big picture 70 percent of the flavor of whisky comes from wood. OK that's the reality 25 percent comes from that grain choice that you have and 5 percent comes from the distilling. Now you can. Now that's assuming you just still good distilling bad is incompetent. So that's that's it. We're gonna throw that out. But you know so the next thing after the wood which is 70 percent so it's 70 percent at least of our efforts. The next thing is the grain. And the key with the grain is not just the selections of grains which we can do now but I and I've talked about this before you know heritage grains we've been doing some stuff with some heritage organic grains which you know before mass farming grains they may not have been as stable they didn't grow they didn't give us high yield but they had a lot more flavor to them and over time we've bred the grains so that they grow well no matter what the climate is and you get a high yield of sugars and stuff from them.

Doug: [00:29:43] And so by going back to some of these heritage grains we're starting to see and we've only run maybe a half dozen experiments with it but we're starting to see that you can develop some unique tastes and unique characters that you can't get from the modern you know factory farm grains.

Doug: [00:30:02] You know I think one of the things that's crazy is you know we've got this world and people say their craft and oh yeah I'm craft related craft but they're buying the same damn you know conglomerate grain grown by factory farms. You know my buddy Jarrett up in Nova Scotia he grows his own you know and and uses it and so he's getting a unique taste as a result of that. Now that's a lot of work. You know his view is you're not real craft if you don't plant the seed that's a piece of it here. But you know everybody's got their own things they're going to do and I'm cool with that. But the the heritage grains is going to explode in the industry it's going to be a big area to do it matched with Woods because you start to get some off tastes so you've got to then manage the process. And it's not as simple as you just throw it into barrels you know that will be an area that we'll be looking at.

Tripp: [00:30:56] Ok. I got to ask a stupid question. What exactly is the operational definition of heritage grain. What does that mean.

Doug: [00:31:04] Well I'm not sure. I don't know what the Internet would say it is but they generally some of the original grains like red Fife wheat is a grain came from Scotland planted across Canada. And you know and it has a nuttiness to it that the farmer who grows organically on our farm and Prince around them my wife and I have he grows red Fife and you know grains some of it for us and I mean you make pancakes with it. It's just got this amazing richness of flavor and and nuttiness that's just incredible so it tends to be the ones pre the genetic engineering. Now it's not genetic engineering but the plant breeding. I got you. That was done to optimize stuff. So it's interesting.

Tripp: [00:31:55] Ok. All right. Do you want to provide us a little bit of an update on both the conference that you've got coming up and the brain brew whisky distillery slash compression ageing what's happening. I guess it with with your distillery.

Doug: [00:32:17] Well we're about to. We're finishing up an arrangement in the UK. I've got conversations going on in some other countries as well. We're talking to people to open up distilleries. In fact we've just before you I was on the on the phone with Europe with another country that's interested in doing it. This one's down in the Mediterranean so I'm excited about that. And so we're doing that but at the craft show we're gonna be looking for a collection of pioneers Our goal is to get a small number of pioneers this year to basically help build new pathways for profitability for craft distillers.

Doug: [00:32:59] It's not this or what they're doing it's this. And what they're doing and so we're presenting a number of different options for people as ways to do it. And so we're looking for sort of those pioneering spirits. We consider 2019 to be kind of our beta year and then with that mass expansion in the next year. And so whether that's with new countries starting with the UK this year or it's with more than 2000 distillers across the US working with more of those across the US as we expand out in order basically to do a small amount to start and then and then grow from there.

Tripp: [00:33:40] Okay. All right well let's move to our Algonquin cocktail or Algonquin.

[00:33:47] I guess there's two ways to pronounce it.

[00:33:51] A 1919 cocktail with a brain twist as this is an original then yeah this is a classic you can look it up it came from the roundtable at the Algonquin Hotel in New York City where the artists used to get together and sit and drink we're taking out it's basically a you know we're taking a bourbon sweet vermouth and a juice and classically it was done with pineapple juice and we're substituting grapefruit juice with it and adjusting the quantities a little bit to get to a better balance and and it really I think this is because I'm trying to think of what's a beyond reasonable cocktail that you would taste and you go whoa that's not what I expected. And you're not used to having a whisk(e)y  martini. Shall we say you know when in a champagne Coop you're not used to having it that way. And so what what this does is you.

Doug: [00:34:48] Take an ounce and a half and it's in the show no it's not and half of our paddle wheel bourbon is what we use with it which is the 200 year wood and if you don't have that you get another craft bourbon.

Doug: [00:34:57] Half ounce of sweet vermouth and we tend to use Dolin but you can use what you want.

Doug: [00:35:03] And then a half ounce of grapefruit juice. And again to be beyond reasonable you've got to squeeze the grapefruit can do bottled is is a reasonable thing to do. Be unreasonable squeeze it squeeze grapefruit juice.

Doug: [00:35:15] Shake it with ice.

[00:35:16] And then stir and put it in a martini glass for a very elegant cocktail that's made with bourbon. You know that you would not expect. You know you. You're not expecting cocktails in champagne glasses and I think what you're going to see is a real growth of these whisk(e)y  based champagne you know with some champagne thrown in it you could add champagne to this but in that kind of martini Coupe I think is what you're going to see. And it's just an elegant drink it's just a very elegant drink. Not not at all what you'd expect.

Tripp: [00:35:50] So is this is this the year. Did you change the recipe or is this. That's right. I actually have bourbon in it. Sweet vermouth

Doug: [00:35:58] Yeah but it had pineapple instead of grapefruit. OK.

Doug: [00:36:01] So that they I mean they classically would put more. So we cut it to a half ounce. They usually use three quarters of an ounce of vermouth and pineapple and we cut it back to a half because I just think it's got a better better balance that it tastes yourself. I mean you may you may adjust it up and down obviously but but that's how we find it to be quite elegant and particularly in this case what happens with eyes with our paddle wheel which uses two year wood. You've just got that incredible richness of the old old wood in there and it just sets it off and so you get this kind of like mind blowing taste that you go wow that's got complexity to it. It's not like a sugar drink it's not I mean it's not a girly drink it's not a guy you know harsh drink. It's it's a drink for humans to have. It has this nice balance between the sweet removes the tightness of the pain of the grapefruit and and then then the bourbon with the corn bourbon it just it really comes together nicely.

Tripp: [00:37:00] Okay. All right. Well beyond reasonable you can be beyond reasonable with whisky products as I guess what I I learned during the brain through whisk(e)y Academy. Many final comments on that.

Doug: [00:37:15] Well yeah I mean so beyond reasonable so be unreasonable is is just part of life it's what we're doing and this applies not just to products and whisk(e)y but it also applies to our life how we deal with our partners how we deal with our kids how we deal with our community what can you do that goes beyond reasonable Try it try doing something beyond reasonable and see how people react to it maybe they'll do it for you too. It's pretty cool.

Tripp: [00:37:43] All right. OK. Well that concludes this episode of the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

Tripp: [00:37:57] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for limited time for thanks. A one hour abridged audio of the driving Eureka book. A subscription to the driving Eureka newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast track big ideas. And the newsletter has other offers that are not a public. The driving Eureka prescription for success you answer questions and will help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas and you get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate. And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend. To get these offers. Go to w w w. Dot Doug haul dot com forward slash podcast. And don't forget to subscribe to the driving Eureka podcast on iTunes.

 Driving Eureka! Newsletter 17

In this episode we talk about the Truth Teller System. You can download the white paper at Truth Teller White Paper Download

This is the 17th episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: 3 Ways to Bring Integrity to Your Work; Segment 2: Whatever Happened to Pride of Work; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy and the Craft Cocktail Recipe.

Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:01] The Driving Eureka! Podcast

[00:00:33] Episode 17 - 3 Ways to Bring Integrity to Your Work

[00:01:16] Opposite of Integrity is Drama

[00:03:17] Integrity: First Way  is Clarity of Mission

[00:06:10] 2. Data-Driven Decisions

[00:07:55] Truth Teller

[00:11:44] What are Some of the 50 Traits in Truth Teller

[00:13:45] Development of Idea is Key - The Idea Needs to Evolve

[00:15:11] 98% 0f Problems Come in Development of the Idea

[00:15:38] Third Trait - Culture of Innovation

[00:17:44] Driving Eureka! Book Segment - Whatever Happened to Pride of Work

[00:19:45] In Craft Companies There is a Higher Calling

[00:21:01] Integrity - Doing the Right Thing

[00:26:27] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:26:52] Bringing Integrity to Craft Whisk(e)y

[00:30:48] Integrity Means Doing What You Believe Matters

[00:34:47] Craft to Industrial Revolution to Craft

[00:38:30] Change is Coming to the Whisk(e)y Industry

[00:39:07] The Craft Cocktail Recipe - The Island Sailor

[00:40:31] The Island Shaker - Step 1

[00:40:54] Step 2

[00:40:57] Step 3

[00:40:59] Step 4

[00:41:01] Step 5

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas.

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whisk()y maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka ranch and author of the driving Eureka book.

Tripp: [00:00:33] This is Episode 17 of the driving Eureka podcast. This podcast discusses Doug Hall's newsletter released February 14th. You can get the newsletter at Doug Hall dot com and click newsletter. So our theme this week is integrity and the feature article in this first segment. Three ways to bring integrity to your work. So we will we you pick this theme of integrity why integrity.

Doug: [00:01:07] Well I don't know I thought it was Valentine's. This is being released tonight. I thought this should be integrity relationships too. I mean really.

Doug: [00:01:16] I mean it's it's not not that much different whether it's in our work or in our relationships what we're looking for is integrity that you know and I looked it up and the definition of integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles the state of being whole and undivided. I mean it's kind of as fundamental as that So Doug when we don't have integrity what happens. That's when it gets ugly or when it's a movie it's entertaining you know because there's drama and intrigue and politics and and all of the stuff going on. And and so the opposite of integrity is all of this drama and and it's drama that sucks the life out of you. And it gets bigger when you're with larger organizations in the more in organizations. I think when the leadership or the ownership of the organization is separated from the work of the employees because instead of being whole and undivided we become divided our bosses are working off of one mission plan we're working from a different one. And the net result is there's no integrity we have. We're just we're disconnected. And so it's just not fun. I mean it's just not fun.

Tripp: [00:02:41] So it's another word for drama than kind of politics then in an organization that would be that would definitely be a way that it comes out where serving myself or my hidden needs we're in a passive aggressive mode is more important than the mutual alignment of us and within the organization.

Tripp: [00:03:05] Ok. So this gets now into your three ways to bring integrity to your work because you're you just described getting clarity on the mission. Is there some else you want to say on that.

Doug: [00:03:17] Yes. Yes. So the three ways are the first one is clarity of mission. We have to have alignment on a mission that is greater than an individual needs. And this brings integrity to our work. And and the key with mission is it's just not flex situationally flexible you know where. Yes. And in the big picture we sit in a room we say OK this is our mission. I understand. That's our mission. But in this one case this one project or customer or client we're not going to follow that mission. Now that's not integrity. It's not situationally flexible. That's not what what I mean by it. It transcends our daily work. It provides a purpose across days weeks and months. And when we do this at the ranch we call this strategy activation or blue cards which comes out of the military commanders intent that we've talked about. It's about a sense of purpose. So we know why we're there and what we're doing. When you have that that is the foundation the bedrock that gives clarity to our mission our life and and frankly our relationship.

Tripp: [00:04:33] So one of the things you you just set in there and I just kind of pops out at me and I think it's worth repeating is that we all organizations have some type of mission associated with what they're trying to accomplish and it may have been made 50 years earlier and somehow that alignment gets I don't know I think it ages over time and people just you know start moving away from what it was or maybe it wasn't valid in the first place. So the alignment portion of this is I think it's really important for listeners to gather is that we're being consistent and that therefore brings integrity to the mission.

Doug: [00:05:15] Is that. Yeah I think so. I think so. I think I think though if we look at a lot of those old ones those missions are more like you're running from Miss Universe you know save the world and you know blah blah blah blah. Nobody cares. No I'm talking about the mission of what we're doing right now how we organize to win what. What's the difference we're gonna make in the world. What is the thing we've brought together as a group to accomplish something greater than ourselves. What is it that we're trying to accomplish and it shouldn't be seven hundred years into the future or or a hundred years from the past because the world's changed this there's much more of a sense of you know when we say strategy activation it's about what is activating us to get going right now.

Tripp: [00:06:10] Mm hmm. OK. All right. Well that's actually a better explanation than what I would have thought going into my head about what a strat strategy activation meant it sounds like you know something that you're getting ready to do as opposed to the operational definition you just gave. So that that makes sense. So what about data driven decisions. The second one.

Doug: [00:06:33] Yes. So so with the foundation in place of the mission we then need to know are we getting closer to it or further away. And the only way to figure that out is with data. The nice thing about data is there's no emotional drama connected to it. Now I'm not saying that it's all black and white. In fact high quality data has variation in it. There's probabilities but data gives us clarity and it takes out drama takes out politics and it keeps us subjective which is why frankly I love the Deming cycle of plan do Study Act and the most important step of that being the plan.

Doug: [00:07:14] What are we trying to get to do what's our hypothesis what we're doing in this study. Did the action accomplish the aim of what we were trying to do and in the bigger picture it's. Does this help us accomplish our mission or not. I mean it's as simple as that. Not my opinion on it but quantitatively does the data give us confidence that by doing this action we're going to see a positive movement towards the mission of what we're trying to do. And and I know I know I know as I'm saying this I can read the thought balloons that you're driving in your cars your exercising or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Your thought bluegrass. Yeah I understand.

Doug: [00:07:55] That's fine because you sell whisk()y and that's like a product. But I'm in the service business I'm in the industrial business I'm in the blah blah blah I'm in a non-profit I'm a we've set a whole bunch of schools with youth colleges with us I'm in the education business there just isn't data for what I have to do well. Get over yourself. The fact of the matter is is if we can measure creativity groups of people creating ideas as a theory all as ideas then you can measure everything and in fact you know our course our innovation and during courses at the Eureka! ranch teaches as well as are our services that we provide. You know we work we call it test the untestable just to challenge people as we talked about just recently because you can't measure anything you can measure anything.

Doug: [00:08:41] I challenge you. I absolutely challenge if you don't think you can measure it contact me hit the Eureka ranch and I guarantee you I'll put up a bottle of my best whisk()y against your favorite whisk()y that I can measure and provide data to help with your decisions on anything that you've got. Just straight up my best whisk()y against yours.

Doug: [00:09:01] I'll do it because but because when we have data we're now taking out the that human emotional bias that comes I mean in one one example we have a system called truth teller that quantifies innovations whether they be services products whatever that might be. And literally we took a bunch of ideas that that leadership had said of top corporations to Fortune 100 had said go to them and then we asked the truth teller system to evaluate data it's not knowing if they'd succeeded or not. And to say you know would you have said Go or no. And it was seven times smarter than humans that make decisions not that humans are stupid but we got all this emotional baggage and when that emotional baggage is playing then we lose integrity of our work. And it just becomes demoralizing because we make dumb decisions.

Tripp: [00:10:01] Yeah. There's one thing I think it's important too to kind of say with with regards to data driven decisions and it's kind of covertly in there. But what you're measuring is associated with something that creates value for customers. It's kind of the underlying thing.

Doug: [00:10:19] Well that's one part yes. That's only one part. I think.

Tripp: [00:10:22] That's a good part.

Doug: [00:10:24] It's an important part. Yes it's important but it's not just that. It's also about the likelihood that we would be able to. And again it's a value but it's in a very broad definition. Will a student learn from this. Will employees be more effective at this. Will they be more efficient. Well you know it's it's any change that we're about to do it's getting data to guide us to make the right decision to go or not on any change that we're implementing in our in our professional life.

Tripp: [00:10:58] Okay. So the truth teller system is much broader than just getting the information from whether a customer likes your product or service or not is what guiding.

Doug: [00:11:10] It actually doesn't doesn't involve ready for this test involve testing with customers. It's a benchmarking system against 50 traits that we found that are predictive of success for change and it was it was validated by the Nationals to science and technology and so it's much broader than just you know. How likely are you to buy something that that's not really what it's about. It's about a broader dimension which is do you have the kind of traits that predict success with with an important change.

Tripp: [00:11:44] Okay. Now that's a little esoteric and I may be getting into kind of the company secrets but can you get a cut. Can you name a couple of the 50.

Doug: [00:11:53] Clarity. confusion is not predictive of success. All right that's fair. Yeah. So clear clarity is is one of those things. We also know in fact in the driving Eureka book I talk about a number of these things. Focus is important. You know if you're trying to do three things it's not as good as trying to do one thing you know while we joke focus focus focus that when you have no clarity and focus on doing one thing great you're more likely to be successful if you're trying to do three things at the same time. I mean I guess I guess it's the science of common sense. A little bit more involved in that. With 50 traits but it is it's pretty clear we have the technology to do this.

Doug: [00:12:43] You know many people when they work at organizations they think well we can't measure that because 20 years ago you couldn't but you know these computer things they're pretty amazing and our ability to do simulations to model uncertainty is amazing. And what we can do today.

Tripp: [00:13:03] Yeah I think in episode 15 you also talked about you know at the beginning there's more uncertainty so there's going to be a broader range of if we're trying to guess what the sales of a particular product is that it's going to be broad. But as you refine and looking at the data and learning more as you move through PDSA then you're really starting to narrow in on what you know how big that market is associated with that with that product or service.

Doug: [00:13:33] But but but. And now. OK so that. Yes. For the idea. Mm hmm. However the bigger use the bigger use of that is as you're in development.

Doug: [00:13:45] This is a really important point because people think well we're just trying to decide if the idea is right or to do or not. Well the reality of it is that's not what you're doing in development. I mean you know I assume you've done the idea the idea is good enough. The problem is is that when you try to do the idea whether it's a new course whether it's a new fundraising thing or a new products or whatever it might be a new system is as you start to try to do the work to develop it. You find that it just doesn't work the way you thought it did. You try to put things together and and that's just things that you can't program there's this things that that as you try to put the class together it just doesn't fit in the time that's allotted or or there's rules and regulations that you know that say that you know you can't have students going crazy in the classroom you know there's something that comes up that causes you to have to adapt the idea. And so the primary thing you're doing with data is making sure that when you get to those forks in the road and you have hundreds of them hundreds of them that occur that you're making the right decision or you're deciding you know something we're dead forget it now that's rare. The majority of the time what happens is you have to pivot you have to change the idea you have to adapt it. You have to do it.

Doug: [00:15:11] That's the unknown that people think everybody's got this idea that you get this big idea and then you just do it. That's not where 98 percent of the problem is the problem is in development not the idea. It's it's you know we. Because what happens is is we make a little change and a little change and we compromise a little bit more a little bit more little bit or a little bit more until you know the ideas like whatever it's not worth doing anymore.

Tripp: [00:15:38] So so you have to the three three things we cover the clarity of the mission data driven decisions. And the third one you put is culture of innovation what do you mean by that.

Doug: [00:15:50] Well integrity requires a mindset that is open to confronting uncomfortable realities. I mean part of integrity is calling people out when something's not right or calling it out when we're about to make the wrong thing. And as a lone wolf in an organization you can do it for a while until eventually you just get burnt out and exhausted.

Doug: [00:16:16] It's much easier to do this when you're working within a culture that embraces innovation. And a culture of innovation embraces change learning experimentation. I mean when you hit those death threats those problems they're seen as opportunities for fresh thinking as opposed to being something to be suppressed or blamed on someone. And and so it's a matter of creating a community around you that has a common sense of mission a common commitment today. If you're spending half your time debating whether or not we should have data then you're just dead.

[00:16:53] And so if you want to have integrity to sustain integrity you've got to create that culture of like minded people around you and frankly that's the mission of my entire life. When I step back and look at the whole thing it's about helping people create whether it's opening up their minds to ideas whether it's a Driving Eureka! book and helping you take those ideas to reality whether it's my books the TV shows this podcast. It's about how do we bring people together so they can win. And you need that culture to give you the energy source to keep going. When you run into the inevitable challenges that you're gonna face when you're trying to do something amazing

Tripp: [00:17:44] It's time now for the Driving Eureka! book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall OK what's moved to our second segment here which is the driving Eureka books segment and you really kind of dive into one of Dr. Deming. Famous line about pride of work. So whatever happened to pride of work associated with that was Deming the inspiration for this or was it something else.

Doug: [00:18:19] Yeah. The phrase obviously came from Deming. It was this section for Driving Eureka! talks about pride of work. And it's interesting because crossing over with me doing the work in the craft whisk()y space it's been an interesting learning because when it comes to craft products I don't care if you're talking craft food craft restaurant craft whisk()y craft beer craft hats craft clothing whatever it is you know there is a definite movement around the world right now for this craft thing.

Doug: [00:18:54] I mean you see it I want to travel in other countries the same thing where there's a difference between you know the mass market stuff and and the thing that separates them. I think craft companies from mass market companies is this pride of work that there is a sense of pride in the thing that we're doing in other words as part of the mission.

Doug: [00:19:23] You know it's often commonly said that if you work for a large publicly traded company your mission it is said I'm not condoning it I'm just reporting it that your mission is to help the shareholders make more money. That is your purpose. Your purpose is to help the shareholders. And if it will help the shareholders make more money and the shareholders do it then that's why you're there.

Doug: [00:19:45] You were there to serve the shareholders. That's your mission. Well that's fine. And if that's your deal. That's cool. I got that with craft companies. There is a higher calling. Money is the outcome of the mission. It's not the mission. You're I'm saying yeah in one case they say we're gonna make more money and we're gonna do it by doing this in the other case we flip it over and our mission is to make the world's greatest grilled cheese sandwiches for people. And if we do that we'll make money. It's an inversion of the mindset and I think at its root that's what it's about and it's about doing things that may not always be you know visible to people. It's about caring. When you peel back a Kraft company you are pleasantly surprised by what you see. When you peel back a mass market company you're oftentimes shocked at what you see. I'm sorry. I'm just you know this is an old guy who's been doing this for a long time. Does that make any sense.

Tripp: [00:21:01] Yeah it does. I think the one thing that you know if I find an executive in a large company which I've been before you know one of the things that happens is that yes you are focused on the financials you're focused on what you said which is you're looking at the quarterly dividend. And so I almost hear and I don't think you mean this but what what I hear is Well if you're one of those our system won't work for you. In other words because we're focused on trying to make a better product that's going to produce that outcome. And I think I just want to talk a little bit more or have you talk a little bit more about method versus outcome. So in other words if you're you know there's the big thing with executives and they're focused on their financials and focused on their their sales pipeline their focus where.

Doug: [00:22:00] Let's just go back let's just go back to integrity.

Tripp: [00:22:02] Yep. Okay. Yep.

Doug: [00:22:05] I went to work for Procter and Gamble because Procter Gamble's commitment was to do the right thing in the right way and if it was going to cost the company money they would do it anyways. If it was the right thing to do Okay so the question is is when that drama comes. Are you more loyal to making money or are you doing the right thing in the right way. That's what we're talking about. And no I'm not going to give any room for the money changers. I can give it. I'm not going to give it no Europe. You have to have a mission. Money is an outcome. It's not the mission. It cannot be the mission. If it's a mission you will fail because you will not do the right things in the right way for the long term success of the organization. It is an outcome nobody goes to buy your products. Let's think of it this way. Well our mission is to make more money for shareholders. Hi would you please buy my new soft drink. It will make me more money. Yes. Yeah I mean it's it's there is zero tolerance in my head for this.

[00:23:09] Now that's not to say that they aren't that way and that's not to say there aren't Precious. I got all of that. I'm good with all of that but that cannot be the mission of the organization you're not going to get great employees you're not going to do great stuff. And it's just a matter of time before you die or get bought. Same thing. No we've got to have a mission that is greater than that. And to get that pride of work it means we've got to have a commitment to that. And you can see it in organizations you can see it when they're committed to educating their employees. Versus treating them as replaceable parts. You can see it when you have leadership setting long term strategic vision and saying this is where we're gonna go and we're going to invest in this to make this work. And we're willing to take time versus the shortest distance we can get to make in the next buck so that I can get my next bonus. And I know this is hard. That's why it's called integrity integrity. This is the difference between people with integrity and not. And I know that is brutal and I'm going to get slammed for people I met. You don't understand my life is miserable.

Doug: [00:24:14] Well than change it you have to start from yourself and say I'm going to do stuff that matters. And you know what I'm not talking the easy path. No I'm not talking the easy path but the path of integrity is not easy. It's about making those choices of what you're going to do. And when you have that pride at work you know I wrote in the newsletter of Steve Jobs told the story of from his adopted father. He told Walter Isaacson about it. You said once Walter Isaacson wrote he said once they were looking at a fence that's the Steve Jobs and his adopted dad. And he said you and his dad said you've got to make the back of the fence that nobody will see just as good looking as the front of the fence. Even though nobody will see it you will know. And that will show that you're dedicated to making something perfect.

Tripp: [00:25:00] Mm hmm. That's a good that's a good quote.

Doug: [00:25:03] I mean that's what that's called integrity. Now I mean you know it's that's integrity. It may look fine. But when you open the drawers and a stapled together or if they've been fitted together of the desk I mean. And if I have something to throw at I mean I love design I love great design you spend to the ranch you've seen we have a lot of great design I love design but I love design like the furniture we have there which is Stickley furniture made in upstate New York which is incredible old furniture made with dovetails and with true oak and real integrity to it. It's not just a pretty couch. It's a phenomenal couch that's integrity and that's the craft world is that we put integrity in our product and that's where you know that's where the future is going to go. And the reason trip the reason it's different today is cause of this thing called the Internet. Because when you don't have integrity the world's going to find out. So the debate between integrity or not the good news is is the Internet over time. Truth will become more truthful and those without integrity will die.

Tripp: [00:26:27] This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcasts where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whisk(e)y distillery business. The Eureka! ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whisk(e)y company with patented technology like has never been done before.

Tripp: [00:26:52] Bringing integrity to the craft whisk()y business. Now you've touched upon it a little bit in our conversation so far. Well how are you bringing integrity to craft whisk(e)y.

Doug: [00:27:02] Well I'm going to I'm going to first off confront this issue. I'm going to confront the issue as to what is integrity and a craft spirit because there's a lot of debate there's a lot of debate amongst the craft world especially in the spirit world as to what is a true craft product. In other words they're debating some. Some organizations have certified craft product craft you know all these things and in what is craft and there's a number of options. I mean one option is is that it's a proprietor or a proprietorship that that it's majority control some say 75 some say 80 percent controlled by an individual or individuals working in the business not by some mega corporation. So craft is basically employee owned kind of thing. Another one is small volume if you're tiny in the whisk()y business they call it under 100000 thousand proof gallons is a definition is oftentimes shoes. So yes small volume. In other words one location. So you distill age and blend in one location. This is the way Scotland defines single malt is it it's made at one spot. And then the most extreme example a friend of mine does which is farm de glass where they he grows the grain distills ages and blends all in one one location and that's that's an extreme one. I guess he could go even more extreme and he can make his own electricity to you know so you can see there's a number of different places you could define it and well you could define what is what. What is a true craft company. True crafts whisk(e)y Company.

Tripp: [00:28:42] Ok. But you've missed one in here and you know I had a conversation about this and maybe it maybe you see it fitting in one of these. But you know I shared a conversation that I had on line with with someone they said oh no you know you I know what type of you know stuff is the brain beer whisk(e)y you Academy putting together because it's not aged you know in the traditional sense it's being built there and you and you shared a conversation that you had also in Cincinnati. Does that fit into. I mean from that person's perspective that's an integrity issue. Yeah. You're not a stat barrels for 15 years or 24 years or.

Doug: [00:29:28] And again I mean and that's that kind of one location or old style approach. OK. And and that's fine. And that's that's fine. That could be a definition too. You know it really. So. So we've got these challenges on how we're going to define it. That's how do you do it. Well my view is that Kraft comes from a person not a corporation at its most basic. It's about having someone as someone's who are connected directly to the. Corporations can't be Kraft. I mean saying corporations with quotes around it only people can craft so that means there's a person now in the old days of Johnnie Walker Jim Beam and Jack Daniels. There was that there isn't any more they're owned by megacorporations now. OK. So when they were there it was Kraft today it's not. I mean that's just my simplistic definition to be Kraft. Somebody has to be doing the crafting. OK OK. The second thing is is there's a commitment to create products that are meaningfully unique because we've talked about in other words good enough is not Kraft. It's about have a caring and pride in the product and oftentimes it's about you develop a house style.

Doug: [00:30:48] And if you don't like my product that's OK but this is what I'm doing. In other words is this. You've made a statement you haven't tried to be all things to all people. You've made a choice that says this is what I believe to the world matters. And so this is what we do in our case. We really like to have complexity but clean. In other words we we try to as I've talked before we try to have the complexity of whisk()y from the old country with the cleanness of new world bourbons. In other words so it's complex but clean. That's our house style. That's what I like. That's what we make. If you don't like that I'm cool with that. But respect I'll respect yours. You just respect. That's my style. That's my house style that I like. That's what we try to do and we'll do collaborations with people that are different. But on our fundamental products that we put out under our name. That's what you're going to see in every one of our product shows we're not doing it. OK. So.

[00:31:41] So there is this there are some lines about what you're going to be and then it's it's also lastly it's about honesty and transparency. But what you do and don't do. OK. And and so if are you going to grow your green. That's cool. Are you not going to grow your green and you're going to buy it from you know on the open market from conglomerates. Fine. Are you going to buy it from family farms. Fine. You know whatever your choices are your choices don't try to lie that you're doing something else. Just be open about it. OK. We can't do it all. We can't make our electricity grow our grain make our own fertilizer and do the whole thing. So we're gonna pick a place that we're going to apply our craft. You know the person who who makes furniture might specialize in a certain type of furniture. One person focus size maybe on the finish or the woods selected another one the intricacy of the cuts. Everybody's different. I respect them all. Same way with whisk()y. I respect what you're doing however you choose to do it if you want to age it and you have a lot of money and you're able to age it for a long time. Awesome. I think it's great. We don't have that kind of money to go do that. And and and it's tough but if you do great that's great as long as you're making a great product that you're proud of not just something that's good enough to sell.

Doug: [00:33:09] That is not craft. That's not craft now in the case of Brain Brew Custom Whisk(e)y. I've decided to focus on the interaction of the wooden sphere. That's what we've gone deep on. So a friend of mine in Cincinnati buys grain from farms family farms and sells it. That's awesome. A friend in Nova Scotia actually grows the grain himself and then distills it. That's awesome for him. In my case my background 20 something years in this industry is that 70 percent of the flavor comes from the wood. And so that's where I focus. Twenty five percent is grain selection 5 percent and selling. Some people want to go focused on distilling some he wants to do grains. I want to do wood. Okay so I buy my spirit because I don't want to waste my energy on that. I want to spend all my time on making that whisk(e)y taste as smooth and as complex yet clean as I possibly can. And so that's what I do and I don't use. We have rules we don't use chemicals we don't use colors we don't put in flavors we do it we do classic process. Same process just replicating seasons of barrel aging by using heat and cooling to do it. So that's my choice as a craft and I'm very open about that we don't hide anything we're very honest with it. Now if at the end of the day you don't like that because you want to have something that's been aged for 10 years that's cool that's cool. But I've made my choices of what I want to spend my time crafting.

Tripp: [00:34:47] That's fair. You know it's interesting as it is you know as we talk here about the the whisk(e)y and we've had conversations about this before you know that Cincinnati had a lot of distilleries at one point and it seems like we used to be this you know I used to almost have this vision of the blacksmith the person who make things and craft their own metal and and things of that sort. And then we went through this industrial revolution where we kind of brought everything together to make more of it faster and cheaper. And now there seems to be this kind of trend to this kind of craft because people can't do it and do it you know associate because of technology or whatever. To be able to kind of separate it out and to a making craft not only competitive but also tasty. In the case of whisk(e)y.

Doug: [00:35:48] Well that's right. There's more you can be more regional. I can take you know the oak from Manitoba and I can make a whisk(e)y with that oak so they can taste it as opposed to getting the same wood as everybody else. I mean we're in a world where that diversity is celebrated.

Doug: [00:36:07] And but you're absolutely right. We went from a time when you know I mean Cincinnati was the heart of whisk(e)y making on the planet warm whisk()y was made in Cincinnati plus the areas of the people in Cincinnati own many of the distilleries in Kentucky because it was the big commercial center. And collectively it was the heart of whisk(e)y making on the planet. And this is this is really the volumes they were doing was just ridiculous. Seventy distilleries or rectify and now many of these people were blenders. They would they would buy whisk()y and put it together. That's an artistry to put together.

Doug: [00:36:40] I learned recently you know we've talked before trip about distillers versus whisk(e)y makers the whisk(e)y maker takes the different barrels and puts it together whisk()y makers are paid 65 percent more money than distillers are. So that gives you some sense how important the whisk(e)y maker is versus the distillery. No it's not.

Doug: [00:37:01] That's just as important we have to do it. But that's not where the value add comes the value add comes in putting those those barrels together in different ways. Now to be fair in Cincinnati its history is not all positive.

Doug: [00:37:13] You know pre prohibition and following prohibition there were some things that were done where people would throw stuff into the spirit the young spirit to make it drinkable. There was not always good for people. In fact it was very bad for people. Oh wow. Oh. And it's the same way the food industry. I mean what Big Food did is it made food safer as it would be people growing food that was not necessarily pure and right.

Doug: [00:37:37] So so it's not all just always that nice to have that quaint organic farm. It has to be done with food safety and done properly. The difference is. And so a lot of those things went away because the cost and quality was better with manufacturing. Now with new technologies and we know more it is now possible again for us to have craft that's giving us quality and value and not be the lowest common denominator so this is a resurgence that is growing.

Doug: [00:38:09] It's only going to get bigger as time goes on and it'll be interesting because you know we work with a lot of big corporations and don't get me wrong. Know we love big corporations and we love the people in particular within them the people because there are good people in these organizations looking to bring more craft spirit bring more caring in it.

Doug: [00:38:30] And many leaders are supportive of it. But sadly there are still too many that are not. And I'm optimistic though. I mean it's gonna change. It's going to it's going to change or we're gonna see. More of openness to having integrity.

Tripp: [00:38:49] Well it's cool to see that you're part of that change. Yeah. From my perspective just kind of watching you know some of things the things you patented. You know the way they're going about the wood those types of things. You're bringing change to the industry by virtue of doing these types of things.

Doug: [00:39:05] Yeah that's I mean it's we're trying to do.

Tripp: [00:39:07] Ok well let's move to the craft cocktail recipe and it looks like you have a brain Brewer original here on the island sailor. You got to tell me about the name first.

Doug: [00:39:19] That's the name is is named after my beloved Prince Edward Island. As you know I have Canadian and U.S. citizenship and we have a home in Spring Brook Prince Edward Island on the shore of New London Bay. And we have a brain brew beach bar we set up every summer down there and. And so while we're up there playing you're messing around. I said well we got to celebrate the sailors and and the farmers. We have an island farmer as well we're equal opportunity here and and the.

Doug: [00:39:50] So this is designed to take you to the sand sun and sea. And it's perfect when you're looking to escape the winter blast. So here we are middle of February. Got you sweetheart. It's Valentine's Day this podcast comes out. And time to just kind of chill out maybe put some island music on it and enjoy it.

Tripp: [00:40:14] I guess at the moment I'm sitting here thinking February 14th in New England on a beach a big overcoat on and making this drink. I think I'd rather be in Florida or someplace. I don't take your mind. That's fine. OK.

Doug: [00:40:31] So the way it works is they take a Boston shaker. You remember what that is right.

Tripp: [00:40:35] Oh yes I've got that drummed into my head. Not a cobbler shaker. And now I remembered I had to look up the name of what the other one's called they call a cobbler apparently. That's right.

Doug: [00:40:44] Well Boston shakers are one we have the generally a glass and then a metal tube about the same size that you get a good throw with it filled with ice.

Doug: [00:40:54] Ounce and a half of our Relativity.

Doug: [00:40:57] Half ounce the sweet vermouth.

Doug: [00:40:59] Half ounce the Grenadines.

Doug: [00:41:01] And a half ounce of fresh orange juice. Give it a shake. Let's put it in a martini glass. You could do a rocks glass In fact, You could do the whole thing just on the rocks but let's add some elegance to it. So we're gonna shake it put it in a martini glass and then a splash of seven up regular diet doesn't matter whatever is your taste preference. And if you're really going crazy some champagne or sparkling wine we'll take it even over the top. Are you more but it's just got some bubbly lots of fruit lots of character to it. The whisk(e)y gives it some depth and a backbone to it. So it is it isn't just it's not a sugary drink. You know I think of this as Tiki done less sweet more cocktail like instead of sort of the Tiki sugared drinks that we've tended to get to as time's gone on. Right. And it's just kind of a fun lighthearted little bit a maybe some steel drum music helped you escape to the islands.

Tripp: [00:42:04] So it's the one thing I do want to cover off in the assist because I've gone to mixing these actually even at the Super Bowl. I wound up doing the Bourbon Milk punch.

Doug: [00:42:15] Yeah. What do you think of that.

Tripp: [00:42:17] In episode 15. It was well liked especially by people who like you said don't drink whisk(e)y. But but the one thing I have trouble with is because Relativity for instance relativity isn't in my area. What would be what would you recommend as you know other because you know you're favored towards the craft industry. Yeah. So why would would be an equivalent to Relativity. Yes.

Doug: [00:42:45] So I would strongly strongly strongly recommend that you explore the craft spirit scene in your community and and and go to your local liquor store or actually just go to the local bars and just say who's who's got the best craft spirits whisk()y is up there. They know that they know the world.

Doug: [00:43:03] And so I would really suggest that you do that. Now if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere where there's no craft great craft spirit and certain areas the country the north west of places really rich in it. There are some barren parts of the planet where we haven't gotten there yet. And if you're really forced to do it then then if you're making cocktails bullet bourbon and rye is kind of the simple go to and if you'll see it in bars you'll see it on the menus oftentimes if you want it more whisk(e)y forward use the rye if you want it less so use the bourbon.

Doug: [00:43:46] But I mean and it's made by you know big US company but it's not craft but it is it's a good solid reliable practical prudent product. I've worked on guys out I know and they're good folks. The good folks at it. And it is a good solid product for value for the money. And you know if you're stuck with it then try that.

[00:44:15] Okay. But is Relativity then which with which grain is that is that that's a for grain product that's that's for creative that's the most one of the most inventive products that I created that product with with a friend John and somebody had to do it two weeks of tasting to put it together but we literally use wheat corn rye and barley all four grains in it. So it's not a bourbon it's not Scotch it's a whiske()y it's an American whisk(e)y we call it the new American whisk(e)y and it literally takes all four grains and think of them is four notes that make up a chord that you might play on a piano.

Doug: [00:44:54] And we've made the four grains come together there's some nice wheat in there that gives it an elegance to it truly elegance. I mean the big fancy bourbons are all wheat forward. You give us an elegance to it. The corn gives it some mouth feel and a touch of sweetness. The Rye gives it just a touch of spice the way we do the Rye. It's not as spicy as it is richness. I think that our rye gives richness more than Spice. And then there's just a little bit of barley which is kind of like the bass note. It just it just balances it out and gives it a a bass note to it. So you got to eat at the top the corn and and then. I mean it's almost like an order. Wheat corn rye barley from the very latest sort of the high notes down through to the to the base notes and a lot of the soprano a lot of the wheat in it but which is very difficult to work with. Well I mean to make it really work for you it takes a lot of work. We spent a lot of time with how we work the wood with the wheat in particular.

Tripp: [00:45:54] Okay. So long explanation there but it sounds like there really isn't an equivalent then to the Relativity product because it's kind of it's own category.

Doug: [00:46:03] Well let's let's go back a second. I think I earlier on this segment. I think I talked about a commitment to create products that are meaningfully unique.

Tripp: [00:46:11] Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Well starting your product what I and you get your product where I am that I must be in one of those barren places that you work well oh well we'll be everywhere soon and Relativity will have it at the ranch and here in Ohio and then maybe we'll work to get it over to Indiana soon.

Tripp: [00:46:35] Ok. Very good. All right. Well that concludes our Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy any final comments Doug.

Doug: [00:46:43] Yes. So the whole subject of this podcast is around this concept of integrity and it's not time to rant about it it's not time to complain about it it's not time to whine about it. Integrity comes from when we make a decision that we're going to live a life with integrity and I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying it's always the most popular thing to do but you know what integrity is when you look within yourself and you say that's what I've got to do. That's the right thing. And the good news is is this people to help. We've got a wonderful community of folks that we're teaching and there's a community growing up around the world some 35000 strong now which are focused on doing the right things in the right way. So thank you very much folks.

Tripp: [00:47:36] Is it time to use artificial intelligence and innovation forecasting. We believe the answer is yes. The truth teller system shows evidence of picking winning innovations seven times better than executives in thousands of research tests. Be sure to look at our show notes for this episode to download more about the truth teller system or use go dot driving Eureka dot com. Forward slash truth teller. And don't forget to subscribe. To the driving Eureka podcast on iTunes.

Driving Eureka! Newsletter #16

This is the 16th episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: Why do adults allow themselves to get stupid as they age; Segment 2: Exploring Stimulus; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:01] The Driving Eureka! Podcast - Episode 16

[00:00:34] Feature Article - Why Do Adults Allow Themselves to Get Stupid as They Age?

[00:01:35] Should We Be Slowing Down or Checking Out as We Age?

[00:06:37] Are You Just Accepting Your Culture?

[00:08:11] Course Offerings and Shark Tank

[00:09:33] Are You Getting Smarter Every Year?

[00:11:26] The Driving Eureka! Book Segment

[00:11:59] Stimulus vs, Brainstorming

[00:13:48] Need to Learn More

[00:14:48] Using Stimulus vs. Patent Mining

[00:16:02] Patent Mining - A Missed Opportunity?

[00:17:27] Doing Patent Mining

[00:19:31] The Cost of Ignorance of Patents

[00:20:22] Are They Teaching Patents in Engineering Schools?

[00:21:48] 80% of the Value of a Company is Intellectual Property

[00:25:18] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

Always Learning as a Secret Weapon

[00:25:57] Leaders Must Be Willing to Change All the Time

[00:32:18] Where Doug Will Be in February

[00:34:05] The Craft Cocktail Recipe - The Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Sour

[00:34:45] The Secret is the Sour Mix

[00:34:57] Step 1- Making the Sour Mix

[00:36:01] Step 2

[00:36:09] Step 3

[00:36:12] Step 4

[00:36:16] Variations of the Whisk(e)y Sour

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas.

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whiskey maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka ranch and author of the driving Eureka book.

Tripp: [00:00:34] This is episode number 16 of the driving Eureka podcast a feature article. Why do adults allow themselves to get stupid as they age. Question mark the Driving Eureka! book segment  we'll be exploring stimulus and then the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy using learning as a secret weapon. And we'll also do the craft cocktail which is the whiskey sour.

Tripp: [00:01:07] So Doug before you start in on why do adults allow themselves to get stupid as they age. I got to tell you one of the things that we used to say in our family all the time which is don't ever call anybody stupid because the only thing that is stupidity is death. You can call them ignorant though call them stupid. With that with that set up why did you choose that particular word.

Doug: [00:01:35] Well I just don't care about the words. I'm just I was just frustrated when I was writing this. I had seen a couple of people and. OK so I turned 60 OK. And and a number of people were talking to me because I have a number of friends who are of the same error and and most of them were pretty cool. They were talking about adventures and things they were doing but they weren't a few people who were just talking about yeah we're settling down we're slowing down we're doing this stuff I'm.

Doug: [00:02:13] And I said well I can't do this or they were talking about you know I'm starting this crazy whiskey business and they're like I don't know how you have the energy to do that you know. And or I was talking about computers and it's just you know you hear people talking and they say I can't do this. It's just too much or I'm too old for it and I've just had it. I just had it. You know I mean 15 20 years ago my grandmother took her computer class she was 88 at the time 88. She's taking a computer class like this like you know 20 years ago. And I said I said What are you doing. And she's like Well I don't want to miss anything seems like computers are going to be important. That's the attitude and attitude.

Doug: [00:03:00] You know you're not too old to your dad as you say there. And it's time for us to all embrace never ending learning. We've got to open ourselves up to learning. Life is meant to be lived and and discovered and new adventures but we have this tendency to just close ourselves down in you know and you know we take classes we tell students to try new things we tell our kids and grandkids to try things on ourselves.

Doug: [00:03:31] Oh no I don't do that. Oh. Oh you mean a new cocktail. No no no. I don't do cocktails. Oh I drink scotch I don't drink bourbon. Oh. Have you tried the new single barrels. Oh no no. Don't drink them. Get over yourself. You'll be missing a whole lot of this stuff.

Doug: [00:03:47] So I was I was you know I don't know if it was a reaction to to the the my birthday or whether it was just a general sense of my grandmother speaking to me. But it's time for us to not allow ourselves that as we age to just not do. I mean the Internet's amazing science is making new discoveries. Let's get involved.

Tripp: [00:04:14] Mm hmm. There's you know we've we touched upon this a little bit before you know on this frustration of it and some of it is perpetuated I think by TV ads you know have you saved enough for retirement or you're going to be retiring soon you know. And that has a totally different operational definition for I think you and I than it would for most people. You and I and you know we talked about this before too. I think organizations kind of beat you down and that's one of the things that I like about the driving Eureka book and innovation engineering is the fact that not only is that a renewal of the company but it's a renewal of a person being able to go through and you know new ideas Spark Energy that they in essence give you a reason to sit there and say wow you know this has got this is something new and different. And it keeps me you know it keeps me energized and keep keeps me going and you know I'm hoping that people aren't taking that attitude.

Tripp: [00:05:22] Well I'm going to retire now and I think a lot of it is people just got beaten up so much from working in boring organizations for a number of years and they're tired of getting beaten up and I can't wait to get out of here.

Doug: [00:05:35] Hey I. My last three or four years at Procter and Gamble a very conservative company. You know proper and prudent organization. I don't think the organization makes you that way. You accept that. Mm hmm. I mean I I push the edges. I mean I had a team and we we would just push the edges with things and what we found is we could do more and more and more. I mean they put out a rule that said there's gonna be casual Fridays so you can imagine this back in the old days you wouldn't have to wear a suit. I remember I remember that time at Procter and Gamble were where a buddy of mine got sent home because he had a sport coat on. Not a suit coat you know like going Jesus. This is a baby suit a. And so. So they decide they're gonna have casual Fridays you know but there will be no jeans or sneakers. So now of course I like jeans and I like sneakers. And.

Tripp: [00:06:33] You I just don't like shoes.

Doug: [00:06:37] So what I did was I was running the invention team at the side and I figured if you looked like a duck it walks like a duck. You were a duck. But if you look different than you are different. And we're talking about you know entrepreneurial rapid testing fail fast real cheap real fast cycles. And so I told my team I said No you don't wear suits. We don't do that stuff. And I said but let's follow this rule. They said no jeans or sneakers on Fridays. I said OK got it. OK. So start Monday through Thursday we wear jeans and sneakers from today because it was only during Memorial to veterans you know Labor Day for some reason in the equinox. That was the time he or should be allowed to do this. And so what I did is from a royal that I wore shorts and flip flops on Friday so that I didn't violate A true story.

Doug: [00:07:30] And you know the culture doesn't make you that way you accept that you put that in yourself. Get up. Come on. Life's meant to be lived. You can find in your sphere of influence. I mean that's what we teach with our we have we have a class innovation entering fundamentals class which teaches you how to transform your world screw the rest of the system. You have a sphere of influence. Let's get that started. Get started. Let's do something you know let's change our thinking let's change how we're working let's work smart and let's find new ideas and find new methods. Life is meant to be enjoyed.

Tripp: [00:08:11] Well I think this is a good opportunity to do that to you know some of the courses that are offered through Innovation Engineering whether it's at a university or at the Eureka! Ranch offered. It's not just for large organizations it is for learning it's individual. We have there's an online course that's available for for folks to be able to take. And then it's a you know I often think Doug you know I watch Shark Tank. I love watching Shark Tank. People come out there and I keep on thinking you know I wish they would have done some innovation engineering to be curious to see how how that would work you know. So he's got an idea but they don't know how to you know make it happen.

Tripp: [00:08:56] They could use the innovation engineering system as an individual and take their product idea and take it through the system and learn new skills at the same time that can be used whether they're an entrepreneur or starting a business or they just got an idea that they want to see you know if it'll work or taking it back to my organization their skills that their their life skills if you will of things that that that they can be able to use. And the fact that you have an online and with support that they can really develop not only the ideas but but the skills themselves.

Doug: [00:09:33] Yeah there's no barrier. I mean you can go to a school you can come to a public session you can bring it into your company you can take it online. Okay. The only barrier is you saying I'm going to get smarter this year in 20 19 I'm going to get smarter and I'm going to learn this whether it's in our case we're teaching you how to think faster smarter more creatively how to get things done. Whatever it is. But what are you going to do to get smarter this year. You know I had an old thing that I used to do it and I know I mean the reason I stayed I mean say for 10 years which is kind of amazing. Now it's the only job I've had and I'm unemployable in that. But I had a rule which is July 4th and January 1 I would look up and say I'm smarter than I was six months ago. And every time I was I put my head down and I just kept working and I figured I'm learning. And if you're learning you're growing one January I put my head up and I wasn't. So I left. That's it. That's it.

Doug: [00:10:35] So are you smarter than you were six months ago. That's a challenge if not what you can do about it because if you're not getting smarter you're dying you're getting stupid. Stupid. I will say like they say in New York. ya know. So get over yourself. What are you doing to get smarter take our class if you want. OK that's a cheese ball promotion but go for it but do something do something.

Doug: [00:11:02] Tick take a meal inspire your kids to keep learning you know walk the talk walk the talk. Do you think the future is going to be less different or more different. Duh. So what are you doing to stay up. I mean at 88 my granny was doing it. What are you doing.

Tripp: [00:11:26] All right. Well what's been to the book segment

Tripp: [00:11:42] It's time now for the Driving Eureka! book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall so the secret to becoming smarter as you aged commit yourself to continuous learning.

Tripp: [00:11:59] So this is good segue from our first conversation and it looks like you wanted. You talked about in the newsletter you're talking about stimulus and we've talked a little bit about brainstorming versus using stimulus and maybe we ought to just do a quick review or once you do a quick review of that and then get into the deeper conversation of some of the stimulus mining mining which you really haven't gotten into before.

Doug: [00:12:26] Yes. So you've got a situation whereby when you're faced with a problem whether it's a problem that you're trying to solve or a problem that you need a new idea whatever it is you need. You need to open your mind. Now the classic approach to creating ideas is called brainstorming or I like to call it brain draining as you suck ideas from your head so ideas are feats of association to a more unrelated ideas connect to create a new idea. That's the fundamental philosophy. And so what we do is we say you need to gather. We turn it into a system and we say you need to gather some stimulus and the stimulus can be of all kinds. And and I won't go into them deeply but it can be in insights from your customers that can be competitors it can be technologies that can be future trends. It can be experiential. But you've got to get stuff that you have to feed into your mental food processor to do it. So you have to go out and gather stimulus. Well this is another way of saying learning you've got to know more. You've got to go out and learn and know more and you go out and you go through a process and in the driving Eureka book I go into more details about how to do this stimulus mining on a future episodes we'll take them one at a time and do them.

Doug: [00:13:48] But what you've got to go gather the big print your premise this week is you've got to know more before you try to make the decision go out and learn more go talk to people go collaborate go to connect ask people's opinions. Use that Google thing I'm telling you it's gonna be big. It's going to really be big you know go learn something then gather that information together and start to do it. And in fact our data shows we track teams when they had more stimulus and less stimulus and they created significantly more meaningfully unique ideas big ideas that literally survived a three day experience when they had more stimulus versus less stimulus. And so this learning thing is not just a crazed rant by a crazy old man. It's a fact. Those that know more are smarter and they come up with more ideas and smarter ideas to not only new ideas but to problem solve problems that they face in their daily life.

Tripp: [00:14:48] It's really quite amazing. As you go through some of the different types of stimulus that you go through and the one I'm not going to go through all these but the one that really stood out in my mind for whatever reason was the was the patent mining that you do the really digging in to it because it does spark ideas when you see what other people have thought about and and what they've done. And you have a huge emphasis on patents as far as one of the outcomes that you want from the classes whether it's at the University or at the Ranch. And it's this whole concept of really opening your mind to things and when you start reading as you said in one of our previous episodes about going deep this is going deep. This is really separating out what to think. Questions I've always had about the different types of stimulus that you have is how did how did you arrive at the at the six things that you mentioned the newsletter so the wisdom mining the patent mining to market mining insight mining future mining unrelated mining and the unrelated. It sounds like a miscellaneous category always does it.

Doug: [00:16:02] Yeah. Well it happened over time. I mean I mean originally there were four and then they became six because we split them off. And so those evolved as time went on. But speaking of the patent mining I mean think about it okay there's millions of patents only 2 percent get commercialized because most of the time people screw it up and they either don't communicate it well or just they don't have the funding or whatever. So you've got this database of ideas that are literally new to the world because you can't get a patent if an idea is obvious to somebody with skill in the art. So these are true inventions not fake inventions because that's why I like to have patents as a standard whether you file or not. It's different but I want your idea to be not obvious to somebody with ordinary skill if your idea isn't patentable that means it's obvious to somebody with ordinary skill and that don't sound very innovative to me. I'm sorry. You know if you only go to all the trouble do something new you may as well own it. And and so you've got all these people who've done you get millions of patents 90 percent plus are in the public domain and when you file a patent you have to make what's called an enabling disclosure so that somebody with ordinary skill could actually practice what you're doing. You have to make it so you've got a blueprint for how to do it. Literally a blueprint for how to do it.

Doug: [00:17:27] And they're all most of them are in the public domain. The three types of patents. Let's just stay on the public domain one so but these ones in the public domain are free and they're in subclasses so that you can get if you know what you're doing or if you have good software like where our patent system is we've got to have the complete Patent Database and we've categorized it in a unique way to make it easy.

Doug: [00:17:53] But if you've got a system to be able to go into it with flicker systems and such things then you can literally get to the area that is very close to what you're working on to the 20 to 50 that are right in your neighborhood real close to what you're doing.

Doug: [00:18:09] And these things are all free and oftentimes what I find is that I can go look at those you know over the last hundred years or whatever it might be and I can look at those patents and I can see things. And you know maybe 40 years ago somebody did something and it wasn't practical because the world changed. But if I take a piece of that with another one from ten years ago and another one from five years ago that went in the public domain I can connect something that is not obvious and create a whole new idea. I mean why wouldn't the very first place you look when you're trying to invent an idea be the patent databases. I mean it's just obvious it's absolutely obvious. Now the barrier with it is this one is the search engines are set up for lawyers not for people inventing which is why we had to build our own system for it. And the second thing is lawyers write horribly. I mean they're just horrifically written and very hard to understand. And so that's why we have classes that teach you the coding of legalese so you can start to understand it. But the fact of the matter is is that if you want to learn a science I mean when I'm going to see a client and it's an area I don't know I'll go look at the patents they filed in their competitor's file and I'll sit in a room with businesspeople and I'll say Well it's interesting what you guys are looking at there.

Doug: [00:19:31] And most of the time the executives to look at me have no idea what you're talking about. I said Well didn't you see the patent that your competitor just filed. What are you talking about. I'm going. My God here we're starting from the rookies. I mean come on folks this is not hard. It is not hard. I mean I graduated with a 2 point something in chemical engineering. I'm not a genius but I've got better systems learn the systems get the damn book and read it do it. You can you can make this work. You just have to know more. But if you don't know and they didn't teach you in school how to do it then you can't do it. It's as simple as that. It's as simple as that. And I think I look at the class. I don't care what you do just listen to a damn podcast but do something yeah.

Tripp: [00:20:22] There needs to be just a class on on the patent piece. And I think I don't know because I'm not an engineer. You went through engineering school. I did not. But from an engineer standpoint you guys get exposed to patents I would assume.

Doug: [00:20:42] Oh no. No. No. OK. That's stupid thing.

Doug: [00:20:46] I was I was I was at this meeting they had me speak 30 deans I mean the age of engineering schools now you know me I'm I'm a com guy. Right. So I asked how many of you teach your students what is patentable and what is not just raise your hand no one raised a hand. At that point it went very badly. I lost my mind.

Doug: [00:21:16] I said I can understand business people being stupid about patents but what justification do you have for not teaching your students what is patentable what is not. I mean are we letting the lawyers make these decisions. How much do they frickin invent. I mean this is nuts. It's nuts. Oh by the way it didn't turn out well. There was a reception afterwards. I was not a very popular I didn't go so well but come on folks get over it.

Doug: [00:21:48] You know 80 percent of the value of corporations their intellectual property isn't gonna be more technology or less technology. This is. Don't don't even tell me that you're not into technology. Get over it. If you're not into technology then OK we'll make your health simple we'll send your country doctor you know and they'll bleed you to make sure you know to try to make you healthy you know Dad don't tell me you're not into technology. Don't get on the plane. Don't don't get it. Don't you pull up your phone. Of course you're in technology. It's not negotiable. We have to move forward.

Tripp: [00:22:21] Well it's not just engineers you know and you mentioned you know you expect it from business schools. There's one thing about Deming you know who railed against what's being taught in business schools. You know we know how to manipulate the financials you know and how to cost everything down to the penny. But but the one thing that drives better financials is innovation and patents and we never covered it. It was not. I mean there was probably a mention in one of the classes but there certainly was.

Doug: [00:22:56] The finace people should be able to evaluate a patent to determine if it's going to have a value to the company because it's the biggest part of valuation. The entrepreneurship classes damn well should be teaching it. I mean and oh by the way liberal arts which is supposed to be arts and sciences. OK. There's a science that you should teach. Maybe they don't need you know higher in physics and maybe they don't need biology and physical chemistry but they definitely need to know what is patentable and what is not. Who everybody needs to know this. I mean it's fundamental. It's going to make a difference in the world.

Tripp: [00:23:36] Yeah I think so and that's one of the things I know you guys. Yeah. Hit it hit it pretty heavy but I'm just wondering if there. I don't think there is presently and correct me if I'm wrong Doug but there isn't just a patent focused it's part it's a segment of what you're teaching in innovation engineering but there's not a standalone is there.

Doug: [00:23:58] There is. There are some classes that we do on a private basis for people but there isn't a public thing that we do. I mean companies set us up to do it for them as they're using the software we teach them on it but it's not you know if you bring the  are Trail Blazer software and then we'll teach you how to do it. But right now it's embedded this for different classes on campus that we teach across our different courses and so you know it's a component of what we do. Okay.

Tripp: [00:24:27] All right that's fair. Well let's move to our brain. Oh no wait a minute. Before we move on you have a table here of me for unique ideas invented that high stimulus groups forty seven medium stimulus groups 38 low stimulus groups 22 What are you telling me there.

Doug: [00:24:50] I'm telling you is that we more than double it. So if you want to make your brain smarter you go from a 2.0 to a 4.0. OK. No not really. You got the premise. I mean it's really simple.

Doug: [00:25:02] Nothing in your head is nothing. Having stuff in your head you get smarter. It's that simple. So if you're sitting in an empty room with a chart pad and saying think that's called the suck method of creativity just spend over tissue but your body. I mean you've got no chance. So you've got to open yourself up.

Tripp: [00:25:18] All right well let's move to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcast where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whiskey distillery business Eureka research team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft Whiskey Company with patented technology like has never been done before Always learning as a secret weapon. How are you using learning as your secret weapon.

Doug: [00:25:57] Ok. So to get learning to become part of a culture it's critical that the leader lead by example. You've got to be open to changing all the time. You've got to be open to changing all the time. And recently I was talking with some folks about our noble oak and our relativity whiskeys and people taste it in my car. That's amazing. I can't believe that. And you know they like man. How could you in just a couple of years when double gold in San Francisco ninety fives to have a double gold you know. Okay. So what's the real secret. And these were like bourbon aficionados who basically started the conversation by saying I don't think I'm going to like you. And at the end of this they said at the end they said they said can you make. Can I make a whiskey. And so I said they said what. What are you doing. How are you making this work. I said. It's easy learning. We never stop learning. That's our secret sauce. The two guys looked at me. They were like You know what do you think we're idiots. No no. But what really is it. And I go No it's embedded in the culture of Brain Brew and our sister company Eureka! Ranch an addiction to learning to always learn learning never ending a never ending continuous learning.

Doug: [00:27:17] And that's just part of what we do. And as an example. So we've got this custom whiskey experience. It's very cool where people craft their own whiskey. And it works and it works well and people like it. But you know Phillip and I were looking at it and we said it's kind of clunky. It's got to be a better way. And so we started looking for different things we could measure with different the ways we can put it together different ways people could taste it. And you know we got in a whole bunch of different things and we just messed around with them and played with them and we figured out a new way. And literally within a week we had a whole new way of helping people put their whiskey together. That was massively better. And interestingly the that same system for putting the whiskey together. We then looked at our cocktail experience where people tasting craft cocktails. And one of the problems with making cocktails is you know if whiskey costs even 25 35 40 dollars you make a cocktail it's a pretty expensive deal and you can't make like 20 variations like we like to make because it can get pretty expensive for somebody.

Doug: [00:28:32] And I think one of the barriers to people finding their own personal cocktail is a cost too much. And so this measurement system that we had with these little spoons and different things that we were doing what we found is we could create micro cocktails that are literally 10 percent so 10 percent the size of a regular cocktail. And then we tested that. And people could taste it and see if they liked it or not. And so you know as we say Eureka. No less waste faster crafting more options. Much easier to make and taste. And so here we've just all set up where the thing going a whole nother direction. And and this will be fine. And then three months from now somebody I'll turn around Peter or Joe or Philip or David or Tory and I will look at it we'll make something new. We'll find another way of doing it. That's how it happens so we live this. Anything that can be done can be read and done and be reinvented. That's the fundamentals of our success that brain brew custom whiskey. That's cool. So you got to get it in your culture. You got to get it in your culture never ending continuous change. That's the key.

Tripp: [00:29:47] Ok. So. So I remember I want to bring this into the conversation because we've talked kind of at a high level about your custom whisk(e)y experience you know crafting your own personal whiskey and you're mentioned in here that it was clunky and slow. So so can you give me a picture of what it was and what it is that that through learning that it's become now oh.

Doug: [00:30:15] I'm going to in a broad sense because there's some patent stuff that oh I don't want a broad set our sense on the tube because it's kind of cool. It was just the way people mixed the cocktails to the cocktails or they put their own whiskey together. It was the way they would do the blending the way people had to measure and assemble a product one way versus a new way. And so we had to change that. That's all that's all.

Tripp: [00:30:41] Ok. So. All right. All right. Well I didn't want to find your secrets.

Doug: [00:30:47] I got good news on the Whiskey side his government's back in business regarding this. The government's back in good business and that means the TTB transfer and bond and our labels are now in theory moving forward again.

Doug: [00:31:04] Yes it has been a total shut down for all of the alcohol in America because all of our new stuff for the new year literally shut down without approvals.

Tripp: [00:31:14] So OK. So does that change the timeline for you. I mean you still can't distill something right here at the Ranch.

Doug: [00:31:23] We we I don't intend to ever distill stuff at the ranch.

Tripp: [00:31:27] OK.

Doug: [00:31:28] You know we will we buy spirits and we put all of our money in the aging because 70 percent of the flavor comes from the wood. Yeah. So our whole focus is time compression of the wood. I mean we've got to still and we we. Which we'll use for some experiments but then we'll take it out because they can make it faster and better quality and at a better price than we can make it. I mean that's the reality. You know when you put it fully loaded it's much cheaper to do well with other people so that that's how we work it.

Tripp: [00:31:58] Ok.

Doug: [00:31:59] So so we move forward we will be. You know it all goes forward.

Tripp: [00:32:07] So what what has happened for you to be open and for from where we sit today you said you were waiting for labels and I forget what the other thing.

Doug: [00:32:18] I mean we're open now. I'm running. Boone County. So we have another distiller that the pollos done under his license over in Kentucky. And so. So we make products there. So we're still open but we're not going to be a traditional I mean our whole focus is a B2B deal where we're going to work with distillers. So I mentioned last week we're gonna be at the ACSA the American craft spirits Association's convention in Minneapolis February 10 11 and 12.

Doug: [00:32:50] And talking to folks we're gonna look for a few pioneers to sign on to become part of the journey for us as we go through beta testing this this year for then expanded. But it basically allows craft distillers to make more money. It allows them to make a higher margin and not have to wait months and years for whiskey they can make a profit immediately their own product unique taste their taste there would you know which is where the real value added is put it.

Doug: [00:33:24] I should also mention that on February 24 to 26 the innovation engineering team is in New York City at the League of innovation and community colleges. We're going to we'll have a booth there and where we're meeting with community college people I'm speaking to I guess fifteen hundred people doing the leadership and then we're doing workshops on Monday but February 3 4 and 5 in February 24 25 and 26 we're in New York City. So see us in Minneapolis see me in New York would love to connect with folks.

Tripp: [00:34:05] Okay. Very good. What. Let's move to your craft cocktail recipe the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Sour. So I'm going to guess that this is something a little bit different than the traditional whiskey sour.

Doug: [00:34:20] Yeah. So Philip who heads our candy for us is a chef a phenomenal chef and his sour mix. So let me tell you what you don't do for a whiskey sour is by one of those sugar concoction jugs of sour mix.

Tripp: [00:34:38] Wait a minute that's what I do.

Doug: [00:34:40] Just toss it. Throw it away..

Doug: [00:34:45] Instead the secret to this the sour is the number one rated cocktail even among whiskey drinkers and our recent research which was which was pretty amazing. And so the key is the sour mix.

Doug: [00:34:57] And so it's a half cup of sugar half cup of water and a quarter cup each of lime lemon and orange juice and by the way that's fresh lime lemon and orange juice. Okay. And you do the zest from the limes lemons and oranges.

Tripp: [00:35:17] What do you mean the zest.

Doug: [00:35:18] You take a grater and take take some of the skin and get some of the zest OK.

Doug: [00:35:23] And ideally what you do is you just heat it up gently for it all to meld together and then cool it and you can filter out the zest if you want. I like to keep it in. But you can filter it out and then you can keep this in the fridge and it'll stay for for a week or so it goes down as time goes on but it'll still be amazing. And so this is this is something where you've got you know you've got basically you know only a half cup of sugar three quarters a cup of juices half cup of water. So it's not overly sweet but my god the balance of the lime lemon and orange just gives you a depth that is just blow your brains out. Mm hmm.

Doug: [00:36:01] And then the cocktail is simple it's a one to one mix. So an ounce and a half of Philip sour mix with an ounce.

Doug: [00:36:09] And a half of our relativity product.

Doug: [00:36:12] You know stir it up with some ice and garnish it with a cherry if you want.

Doug: [00:36:16] And enjoy enjoy something that is truly there is no one in the world that won't think that this is an amazing drink. If you want to make it more whiskey forward use rye instead of you know an American whiskey a four grain type product but an amazing drink a truly amazing drink even for whiskey drinkers and whiskey drinkers can be tough because they can sometimes not like these things but this isn't too sweet. It's a it's got depth I mean because bringing the three different juices and the zest in just gives you a more multi-dimensional nature to this cocktail that just makes it so much more interesting and really works with the whiskey.

Tripp: [00:37:02] Okay. And I notice that you switch step by me here. You said to add it to ice and stir it 12 times. What's up with that.

Doug: [00:37:13] Oh I just want to keep you on toes.

Tripp: [00:37:15] Was that a typo or are you messing with me.

Doug: [00:37:17] I just want to keep you on It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

Tripp: [00:37:23] Okay. But stir it a few times anyway. Yeah. Okay. Very good. One question I did have for you Doug on this is when you get the zest from the fruit is there a tool or something that you use to do that.

Doug: [00:37:38] Yeah I mean you're just using a grater. I mean you can use the thin side of a box grater but usually this is some different culinary ones that you just you know you can zesters that are such things as investors. So there's no different ways to do it.

Tripp: [00:37:53] Ok. All right very good. All right. So what do you think we might have upcoming where we may be talking about in Brain Brew.

Doug: [00:38:01] I don't know. I mean we're going to be we've got a bunch of stuff happening. I try to keep this very real to what's what's really happening and thinking we've got a whole bunch of academics coming to the ranch this week coming up.

Doug: [00:38:15] They're going to push us with regards to learning as we expand innovation engineering to hundreds of schools to universities. I've got a bunch of data stuff we're doing. We've got more research experiments on the Whiskey side that's happening.

Doug: [00:38:29] And then I'll be up at the I'll be up in Minneapolis and obviously out of Minneapolis there'll be all kinds of stuff in the trip to New York. We'll also have tons of stuff. So I don't know I don't know. I'll just let life come as it comes.

Tripp: [00:38:43] Very good. All right. Well we thank you for joining our show this week. And we look forward to whatever adventures Doug's got coming for us in the weeks to come.

Doug: [00:38:55] The fundamental thing is get up get out get going. Let's start learning and not get more stupid. So.

Tripp: [00:39:05] We're going to end this with stupid. All right

Tripp: [00:39:12] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for limited time for things a 1 hour abridged audio of the driving Eureka book a subscription to the driving Eureka newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast track big ideas and the newsletter Has other offers that are not made public. The driving Eureka prescription for success you answer questions and will help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas and you get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend to get these offers. Go to w w w dot Doug Hall dot com forward slash podcast.

Tripp: [00:40:13] And don't forget to subscribe To the driving Eureka podcast on iTunes.

Driving Eureka! Newsletter #15

This is the third episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: Test the Untestable: 3 Principles for Smarter Innovation Decisions; Segment 2: Data Driven Decision Making; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy.

Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:01] The Driving Eureka! Podcast

[00:00:34] Episode 15

[00:00:51] Feature. Article - Test the Untestable: 3 Principles for Smarter Innovation; Driving Eureka! Book Segment - Data Driven Decision Making; and the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:01:15] Test the Untestable

[00:01:55] Need Help with Innovation Data Decisions? - Merwyn Decision Support Group

[00:03:32] 85 - 95% Failure Rate in Innovation

[00:04:49] Merwyn Truth Teller Can Help You Make Better Decisions

Download Truth Teller Paper

[00:06:25] Win More Than You Lose

[00:07:02] Hitting .500 in Innovation vs .150 is like Baseball

[00:07:26] Make Money by Having Better Data as You Move Through the Development Process

[00:10:21] Ego Can Lead to Bad Decisions

[00:10:47] Innovation Requires Learning - Not Know It Alls

[00:13:24] 3 Principles for Smarter Innovation

[00:16:03] Dealing with Uncertainty in Numbers

[00:17:03] NIFS Validated Forecasting System

[00:17:37] New Research You Need to Forecast

[00:18:53] Triangulate on Decision Support

[00:23:41] Driving Eureka! Book Segment - Problem Solving with Data Driven Methods

[00:24:39] Innovation Without Data is Stupid

[00:26:57] Problem in Innovation - One Test in the Beginning and Then No Tests as Product or Service Develops

[00:28:40] Numbers are Our Friend

[00:30:47] Sensation Transfer

[00:32:24] Paired Comparison Test vs, Sensation Transfer

[00:34:18] Merwyn Decision Support Group

[00:35:48] Better Innovation Decisions - 3 Step Process - Cuts Costs 70-80%

[00:38:00] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:38:33] New Data - New Learnings

[00:40:20] Red and White Wine Drinkers Like Different Whisk(e)ys

[00:40:58] Using a Correlation Matrix

[00:42:36] 18% Drank Whisk(e)y in Last Month in the USA

[00:42:58] 3.6% Drink Whisk(e)y Neat

[00:44:03] Introducing the Whisk(e)y Wizard

[00:45:36] You May Determine a Whisk(e)y by Beer or Wine You Drink

[00:46:05] Craft Cocktail Recipe - The Bourbon Milk Punch

[00:46:36] Step1

[00:46:39] Step 2

[00:46:43] Step 3

[00:46:47] Step 4

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and. Fast Track. Big Ideas

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whisk(e)y maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka ranch and author of the driving Eureka book.

Tripp: [00:00:34] This is episode number 15 of the Driving Eureka! podcast. The discussion is about Doug Hall's newsletter from January 31 2019. You can read the[00:00:45] LA [00:00:45]newsletter by going to Doug Hall dot com on the menu click newsletter.

Tripp: [00:00:51] This week's feature article is test the untestable three principles for smarter innovation decisions the Driving Eureka! book segment is about data driven decision making and the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy will discuss the topic new data new learnings and of course we'll talk about the craft cocktail recipe.

Tripp: [00:01:15] So let's start with our feature article Doug. It's test the untestable three principles for smarter innovation decisions. Why did you start down this path. Well

Doug: [00:01:29] You know you go to a company and you'll be meeting with small companies medium large and at some point they'll lean in and they'll say you know we're a very conservative company. I said oh that's surprising.

Doug: [00:01:46] I mean I'm waiting to hear the company. We're not very conservative yet.

Tripp: [00:01:51] So what did they mean by conservative. Well what did they answer that.

Doug: [00:01:55] We don't do rash things okay. And we practical and prudent as we do it. I would joke the fact of the matter is is that most of them are actually high stakes gamblers. Well the reason I say that because that may seem harsh is I say so that would mean you use data to make decisions. Oh yes we're very data driven. OK. So when you made the decision to do that new system product whatever it might be What data did you use. Well while we didn't you actually use data on that that's what you mean you used it well or we can't we couldn't get data. I mean that was just not measurable. And see this concept of the that it's unmeasurable is something that you know quite frankly 10 to 20 years ago that was true you know you there were many things that you could not quantify. And so they were right. The fact of the matter though is is that as computers and as one who had an apple to see up as computer power has come and as new methods have come what's what we're finding is is that there is nothing that we cannot provide data on now. So it is possible as we say I've got a team at the ranch which is called the Merwyn Decision Support Group where we sell services to support and I'm going to tell you how to do it and we can also help you if you want but I'm going to lay it out. What we found is that you can test the untestable. I mean that's the slogan we use with people and we have to be that blunt to get through it because people have come to accept I can't make a decision.

Doug: [00:03:32] So you know I oftentimes joke I say you know you know you have CFO so you don't support innovation. Well guess what. That's because they're saying they're reasonable people you know data after data shows that when it comes to it an idea. Now I'm just talking about ideas to go to market. And it's also internal innovations as well. It's the same thing. But when we talk about ideas that go to market 85 to 95 percent of the time the idea is still not in business. Two three four years out it fails the first year they may spend a lot of money to get it going but fundamentally it just withers away. Small businesses. They don't go away. They just keep it down at a small level and they just kind of runs out. But to say that yes that has improved shareholder value that has helped the company grow. We've got an 85 to 95 percent failure rate. So when the CFO says I don't think we should do it they're right they're right the nut case is the one who says we should go for it anyways even though we failed every other time we've done it this time it's going to be different this time is gonna be different. Now the fact of the matter is is it is right to be conservative to be conservative with shareholder money.

Doug: [00:04:49] It is right to be prudent but just saying it isn't doing it. What you have to do is you have to become data driven. In fact being data driven is is the fundamental to not only increasing speed because when you have data driven you get into less debates and when you're data driven you make less bad decisions. And in fact just as an example we have a research tool called truth teller and it's a unique system we now have to get into the details of it. But fundamentally what the system shows in the long term tracking studies we took decisions that were made by senior executives at that Fortune 100 companies and then we had Merwyn's the Truth Teller systems evaluation. Go or no go. Basically should they do it or not. Seven times more likely to make a smart decision either to kill it or to go with it. When you used the truth teller system versus human judgment seven times that's not seven percent. That's seven hundred percent OK. And so you know you start to get into that five to 15 percent you can see how you can get over 50 percent you can win more than you can lose. It's very doable. It's really doable.

Tripp: [00:06:09] Ok. So. So you're taking basically this 85 95 percent failure rate and now let's say the failure rates because you said it was what wasn't your success rate is is going to be what say 40 percent.

Doug: [00:06:25] I don't know. Oh 50 percent. So. Oh my goal was always to win more than I lose. OK. And then. Because I can get to 80 or 90. But the way I get to 80 or 90 percent on each idea is I make them less unique.

Doug: [00:06:40] And so I don't get the return I don't get extra pricing I don't get extra margin I don't I don't make more money so much more than 50 percent on innovations. When you're really trying to you know grow your audience make more money because you know if you're not unique you better be cheap. Much more than 50 percent and I think you're just you're playing it safe.

Tripp: [00:07:02] Ok. So let's just take 50 percent for you and I guess you tell me if this is a good analogy or not but you know if I'm a baseball player and I'm hitting you now point .0 5 0 or .150 then I'm not a very good batter but if I'm hitting 300 I'm awesome and what you're talking about is basically hitting 500.

Doug: [00:07:26] That's right. And the key to that and the key to making money on that is that you have better data all the way through the process. So data is not at the start. The most important data is through the development process and as you're going to market to see how things are going on so that you can make midcourse corrections because remember set it and forget it. Create the idea and just go. That's delusional because as you go through the process of development and as you get into the marketplace things change. OK. And so competition adjusts. You're trying to engineer something the technology doesn't work. You have to make adaptations the biggest stupidest thing in the world is to test the idea at the front and never test again. In fact one of my ways to understand the success of a company is I don't even have to know their success rate if they just tell me. But this idea that went out what test did you do what data do you gather on the. But the performance of the idea of the appeal of the idea. And they said well we ran a test in the beginning. OK. So show me that thing.

Doug: [00:08:32] And they'll show me like a write up or a mock up or a prototype or a CAD drawing or whatever it might be. And I say Now let me see what you actually did and of course the two don't have anything to do with each other. Does it changed. I said Well when you made those changes did you test. Oh no no no no you that's not testable. Well yes it is testable. Yes it is. The new methods allow you to do it at literally you know 10 percent of the time in cost. We can do that. OK. So.

Tripp: [00:09:03] So in some of the neuroscience research for instance that I've been doing there's a there's a book it's called Decisive and some of the things that I've read. There's four things that real a block in a leadership team and these four things are and help me to help me figure out once I get through the four how this helps mitigate these four things. So one is narrow framing so they're not looking at enough options they just have you know it's kind of a go no go type of thing. We got one idea we're going to either go or no go with it.

Tripp: [00:09:41] And I think you kind of hit upon it already but we'll go back and revisit it. There's confirmation bias which is then you're only looking for things that support your idea when you're doing your research. Emotion plays a large role in the decision making process with executive teams and then overconfidence in their idea.

Tripp: [00:10:02] So how does this system when if step back and look at those four things the narrow framing a confirmation bias emotion and overcome confidence overcome these these difficulties that that seemed to manifest themselves in almost every organization.

Doug: [00:10:21] Well I'd put all of those away I would gather all of those as it's called ego OK I mean it's fundamentally ego OK it's the narrow focus is I already know what it is and I already know what it is. So I don't need to see anything different. You know I love it. So don't you love it. And and of course I'm right because I'm right because I'm the big boss and I wouldn't be able to do this if I wasn't the big boss.

Doug: [00:10:47] I mean that's the you know that's called hippo the highest paid person opinion as they call it you know and and and so it's just different ways to say that they don't have a culture of learning it's a Mr. Know-It-All or Miss Know it all. It's a it's a person who feels that they know the answer and they don't need anything else and that's fine. And so that's why she financial officers don't want to do it. And I by the way I hope that as a shareholder of your company I hope you don't because you're actually going to lose less money if you don't do it. I mean I know companies where they would lose less money if they stopped all of their innovation. I mean that's absurd. From guy wants to do innovation but we've either got to confront this reality and become data driven or we've got to just stop the innovations just stop them stop deluding ourselves stop lying to ourselves about this and and just run it as efficiently as you can run it off until you get bought up and then go on to the next thing OK cool.

Tripp: [00:11:57] Oh yeah.

Doug: [00:11:59] I get all that true. I mean if you're gonna make frickin decisions I mean. I mean I ran into this big time because we work across at the Eureka ranch. We work in so many different industries whether it's oil drilling rigs. I mean for. I don't know anything about that millennial price. I don't know anything about that. And so what I've learned over the years is two things One is I don't know what I don't know. And second the more unique you are the more likely it is to be wicked good or wicked bad. And so if you want to stretch the edges you have to have a humbleness and let the data guide you not you put out stimulus and you get data on it and then you learn and then you pivot and you keep doing that.

Tripp: [00:12:42] Before I move on to the next segment of the book segment how do I know when I need you. So for instance if I've already got an idea out there and people are struggling and even in your Driving Eureka! book when you start to talk about these things you talked about that where someone had called you in and they were looking to help their team and it was it was already too late but so. So you know if you're not at on the front end of coming up with the ideas and you haven't built some of these things into it can you help a company that's in the middle of a of a of an idea and they're struggling with it.

Doug: [00:13:24] Well it was struggling or not it can always be better. And so you've got to put a foundation underneath it and there's three fundamental principles that you need in order to be able to do this. And if you if you've gone along and you've gotten maybe a good run but now you're running to bumps or even if you're not you've got to have a foundation underneath the idea that you're doing. And so the three principles of today associated with smarter innovation decisions are first off you've got to build your systems so you can test at the speed of decision making. Okay. In the past we would have a false sense of precision and we would take a long time to put test together to run them to analyze them. Well then it's not worth testing because you've got to make a decision. And especially when you have lots of iterative decisions you have to go faster and the good news is is that by using some of the new technologies and some of the new digital technologies and new artificial intelligence of systems that exist that you can cut the timing and cost by up to 90 percent in fact one multinational that we work with found that they actually cut it by 93 percent versus the classic costume to do this. And so you've got to build speed because the longer it takes to do a test the less likely somebody is gonna go get data.

Doug: [00:14:44] So you've got to vaporize the time and the cost whether you use us or other systems. You've got to vaporize the time you've got to do it fast. The second thing you've got to do is we have a tendency to want to look for the magic test. This one test that's going to answer it well in carpentry they call it measure twice cut once and I say measure twice or three times decide once which is that sometimes there isn't a test but you can triangulate on it by using different methods whether it's Delphi artificial intelligence systems rapid research truth teller. I mean there's different methods you can use that can triangulate for you to get a sense on it you can get perspective on your thing from two or three tests that you look at. Remember research is its decision support. It's an aid to your judgment. It will not give you the answer but it makes it so that you can make a smart decision. So testing at the speed of decision making measure twice or three times decide once and then the third thing is you've got to confront reality by using risk adjusted forecasting. So there's a tendency in the Western world to want to know the answer.

Doug: [00:16:03] How much are we going to sell. How much are we going to save in money if we do this cost savings thing well if you do it and you hit that number then somebody cheated because the number you're not going to do is that number because this variance in that number and and I'm sorry folks I understand that you didn't like the statistics course. I understand you don't like standard deviation. I understand that you don't like uncertainty. You want to know the number well you're gonna have to get over yourself because uncertainty is fundamental to all of these measures. I mean we're projecting the future and the way to get smarter instantly instantly is to do risk adjusted modeling where you're modeling using the standard deviations using the variance using Monte Carlo simulations five year trial and repeat diffusion models. And if you don't know those words I'm saying go hire somebody that does or rent somebody that does because you've got to do it.

Doug: [00:17:03] OK if you don't you're at a disadvantage versus others. I mean we had NIFS the Nationals Institute Standards and Technology literally validated our forecasting system the first time ever for forecasting technologies in federal labs. I mean which is about as difficult to do as anything in the world but you can quantify these things you can bring it but you're gonna have to model the uncertainty and what that does is it gives you risk adjusted when you do that you end up in a situation whereby whether you're a commercial company a consumer company a business thing.

Doug: [00:17:37] I mean we once did a thing with with the EPA. They wanted to put in regulations for refrigerators and they wanted to know if they put this in would how would it impact sales of refrigerators. Was there a consequence to it. And we found there wasn't. And they did it. I mean refrigerated design changes by regulation we can model that do not tell me that you can't. But if you turn around and you have a high speed system people are going to use it. If you use multiple measures and if you use probability modeling risk adjusted forecasting then you can dramatically reduce risk. It is a no brainer to do this I'll tell you though that it starts with somebody saying I need to learn more because they didn't teach you this stuff in school because it's new folks you go to your research people they don't know about it it's new folks. This is a new world that exists now that is now starting to go and it's built into the innovation and movement it's built into the tools we can help you. But there's other people that can help you get the newsletter. The words that I put in here people know what those mean. If they're in statistics and if you don't get statistics get it rent it because you know failure is your other option.

Tripp: [00:18:53] Okay so. And I know those guys I falsely promise that we move on to the next segment. But I got to ask the question. So when you say triangulate on Decision Support data can you. Can you dumb that down a little bit for me. What does that what exactly are we doing there.

Doug: [00:19:11] Well so say you're looking at a situation whereby you've got a idea going to the marketplace but you've got Route to market that might involve distributors and industrial companies or distributors retailers and consumers or fund raising major donors then minor donors and government grants you might have two or three groups that are truly at the end of the day are the fundamental dimension.

Doug: [00:19:45] And so one way to do this is that you do an assessment of each of those groups to see what's the probability that each one of them is going to open up and support you that's one way or another way B is like when I was talking about the EPA with the EPA we had to use a collection the truth teller system which is a calibration system. We had to use consumer data to go do it and we had to use both of those numbers and we got two different measures of it. And then we used the variance between those two to do our modeling OK.

Tripp: [00:20:25] And are the were the numbers then very far apart.

Doug: [00:20:29] And so sometimes they aren't. OK. Sometimes they can be very far apart and sometimes they can be very close. I mean we we will do tests where we'll take the idea and we'll test the communication clarity of it which impacts what's going to happen at the same time. Will will score consumers first opinions on the idea which which gives us an opinion on the thing and and then we might turn around and use the truth teller system which gives us a more business model thing to say.

Doug: [00:20:57] Does this whole idea have the scale that we need to do. Sometimes those will all come the same which gives us a high confidence and sometimes they'll have high variance. Now you say it's easy get high variance that means the tests aren't good. No it means there is high uncertainty. I mean just even measuring your customers I can take customers and ask them on a zero to 10 scale how likely our to buy it. I can get you know for everybody comes in four or five six or I can and I have an average of five point five. I can also get a 5.5 with a whole lot of ones and a whole lot of nines okay. And what we found in the past is when you have that high variance people say well obviously it's a polar idea. Well interestingly we match that with clarity research. We find the idea isn't clear. The person giving it a nine is interpreting the idea one way the person giving it a two is interpreting it in a different way. And so when you combine clarity research with the consumer research I now get a better sense as to what's going on and sometimes we can then fix it I mean cause the first thing you do is you want to fix it. Want to make it work. But sometimes we have to accept the fact that we don't know what we don't know and we're gonna have to see what happens in the marketplace so we might need to run a test market first before we scale up okay.

Tripp: [00:22:26] And then that informs then the judgment types of decisions associated with with that particular product. And how how it's moving forward.

Doug: [00:22:35] Yeah. It makes you make decisions on your investment strategy. Are we gonna build a big factory or are we going to you know work with contractors to do it for a while before we find out so we can mitigate our risk okay.

Tripp: [00:22:48] And so the two parts for the Eureka! Ranch are basically the one is you can come in and help them come up with these data or two you can teach them how to use.

Doug: [00:23:04] Well that's right. But the first thing is is that just take the newsletter take it to somebody that understands statistics and you can have them help you. Okay. You can just do that. I mean the stuff I'm talking about probability modelling multiple measures speed through digital systems. Those exist in the world we happen to be experts at it. And if you need help all us and we can help you do it. But that's really up to you.

Tripp: [00:23:27] Okay. Let's move to the Driving Eureka! book segment from here at

Tripp: [00:23:41] It's time now for the Driving Eureka! book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall.

Tripp: [00:23:54] So now we're talking about problem solving with data driven methods which is obviously the sub title to the book Driving Eureka. We're talking about reducing fear what fear are we reducing.

Doug: [00:24:11] Well with all new ideas this fear fear of the unknown fear of failure etc. and we know that fear has a direct correlation on your organization's ability to create communicate and commercialize Big Ideas attempt to make stuff happen. And there's two fundamental ways to reduce fear as I write in the book. And as you mentioned I mean it's important to note that the book's subtitle is The book is Driving Eureka! problem solving with data driven methods.

Doug: [00:24:39] So you might notice I'm a little bit passionate about this stuff. Okay. I mean it's like people say innovation is too risky it's like the if you don't know me data yes. It's not just risky it's stupid it's stupid. Now when fear happens it's two ways to do this. The first thing is to make the unknown known. And as I write in the book you we do this by writing the idea in a very clear way for the customer or the stakeholder. What's their problem. What's the promise we're making. What's the proof that we can do it. And the costs with it OK as well as a math game plan that says how the hell we're gonna either save money or make money. OK so pretty some first thing is is make sure we have clarity of what the idea is because we may all be talking about a different idea and you find that over and over again defined the idea from the perspective of the stakeholder in the case the system and the customer in the case of the products or services improvements or whatever it is. The second involves the data which is doing what's called the demi cycle or plan. Do study act or PDVSA where we use rapid experimentation and we gather data and we use data to guide our decisions in a plan to study act is not a wandering in the wilderness thing. It's the plan the do and the study and the study ideally is against something factual and more more factual than data. And so we use that to do that and what we find is when you embrace this. When you have teams of people together fear has an exponential kick in the number of ideas the lower your fear the more likely you are to create communicate and commercialize meaningfully unique ideas that can make a difference for your organization.

Doug: [00:26:26] So we want to drive out fear and we do it by making that unknown known and by adopting the cycle of plan do study act. And that means data. I know Deming said the most important things are unknown and unmeasurable. That was true in 1980. It's not true today with computers and probability modeling in Delphi and artificial intelligence systems. We can put quantification on these things that's the reality.

Tripp: [00:26:57] Ok so you know as I say and again I want to reference back to the story you tell in Driving Eureka! which was I was the water company. They had a way to filter water but they'd only run one test really at the very beginning and then nothing for I don't know how long but it was a long time. And as I'm listening to you talking it is one of the biggest problems that you run into then is the fact that they test that idea at the beginning and then they never run a test on products or new services again in the development process.

Doug: [00:27:37] Yeah and sometimes. So that was an example of I met with them in the morning I'd been brought in by senior leadership the team had been going for 18 24 months I can't remember and it was not going anywhere and they said that they could filter water that made it taste better than bottled water. I saw Spring Water I said Well that's wonderful it's wonderful. I said how much better. So while we don't really know that's what you mean you know I said well we don't really know. I said and this is a big campus. I mean it's a big big company. I mean this like all these buildings everywhere you know would B-1723 you know the kind of place these rooms.

Doug: [00:28:11] And I said well you've got a cafeteria here. Oh yeah yeah we've got a cafeteria. It's a do over in the school a lot of people go there. Oh yeah. A lot of people there. I said What do you say we go out and get some spring water and get yours and we'll just set up at the cafeteria and just have them taste a and b to a paired comparison. Yeah we do. Oh we can't do that. Why can't we do that. Well we couldn't get the water. I said well I got a rental car. I can go get it. I said well no no no. We'd have to get permission.

Doug: [00:28:40] I said at P&G I used to do this stuff all the time. I mean they think it's cute. No no we can't do it. And they came up with every objection most of which made absolutely no sense. And I finally came to the conclusion that they didn't believe their product was better inherently. They did not want Tim Feely at Procter and Gamble once taught me. We had it we'd run a test and the test bombed. I mean I put a team of three. We put nine products on the market in twelve months. And the reason we're able to do that is because of exactly what I'm talking about by the way folks. I'm this is my life is my life. And we'd been devastated. And Tim Feely product development. Just the genius of a product developer while we're all retired now. He came in and he said numbers are our friend. He said he said this is a great moment for you. Now you know that doesn't works. Now get ready and do your next one and. And it was funny but it's like confront the reality now or later. Well they didn't confront it and six months later management didn't they shut them down and they didn't need to because even though maybe their product wasn't better they could have done. I'm gonna go geeky on you now sensation transfer to find out what traits were they winning and losing which is the easiest test in the world. And I don't know what's happened. I mean let me tell you this if its your organization you don't do paired comparison and sensory transfer then then then you are at a major disadvantage. You are at a major major disadvantage. I mean just thinking call a Ranch and have us just do a presentation for you on what this is. But you got to start doing it. You got to start doing paired comparison. You promised your kids Survey Monkey won't let you do these things because they don't have those.

Doug: [00:30:23] So. All right. So guys came out I don't know how to do this. They don't not the statistics. They don't need to do it because we become simpletons and I'm tired of people telling me innovation doesn't work when they're not using the skills of the state of the art of today. And don't tell me that's what we've always done it because that's what we've always done. It's never work. So stop doing what you've always done because it's not working.

Tripp: [00:30:47] Ok. Well we've talked about one of the two things you just mentioned but I'm not familiar with sensation transfer. What is that.

Doug: [00:30:56] So it's sensation transfer is as you set up to offering. So as an example we might set two whiskeys and we might take a really expensive whisk(e)y that costs two or three times what our whiskeys cost. We'll have them test product P and product Q. no ID they say which one of them more likely to buy which one is more new and different. And then we'll ask them which one has a better aftertaste. Which one has is richer which one feels like it would taste would be more expensive which feels like it's older which has a greater smoothness to it. A collection of traits associated with whiskeys and then what you find is you find a couple of things one is you find where if you're losing on the overall measures you find what are the things that you're really losing badly on.

Doug: [00:31:48] So you know like our smoke product you know in the beginning what would happen is as we say which one has a better aftertaste and we would get flushed I mean we'd lose like 10 to one as like we don't fix up art. It points you to where you're strong and where you're weak and it gives you a better sense by the way it's obvious times fun for us because you know here we're taking this young juice that we've used time compression on and we're winning two to one in three to one on tastes older it tastes more expensive. And that's seriously cool. And that is seriously cool when we do that.

Tripp: [00:32:24] So so what's the difference then between a paired comparison test and a sensation transfer.

Doug: [00:32:30] What was sensation transfer it's just an expanded paired comparison so prepared Harrison but then you put the traits down and you keep doing the comparison between the two and you use that to do it. You can also then turn around and do a regression with it which we do automatically in our software which can tell you what are the factors that are driving appeal. What are the things that are driving people to like it better than them or you. What are your strengths what are your weaknesses. I mean this is deep information much more than saying what you like and what you dislike which is tends to be imperfect. This is really good solid data. I mean frankly that's why within a year we went to have a double gold at the North American bourbon whisk(e)y championship. It was because of paired comparison. I mean it's not like we're geniuses it's just we are data driven and most of the entire industry. I mean I've tested more whiskeys than anybody on planet Earth. I mean I did stuff for Diageo for Edrington. We've got by far what we have the biggest database in the world on whisky testing and and you know this is one of these where the data captures the rich get richer and the poor stay poor. I mean you know that's just the way it is.

Tripp: [00:33:39] And I remember. And for folks that are listening in episode 7 we talked about paired comparison testing and the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy segment and how much of a differentiator is and the fact. And you mentioned in their Doug about the fact that companies aren't doing these things that that. And how crazy it is what you by your voice indicated the same thing. But I just wanted to mention that these are things that companies can do today to make to differentiate themselves and improve their products that they have out in the marketplace.

Doug: [00:34:18] Well. And I one of my New Year's dreams for this year is to get on this issue and so to that end and I've been ranting about it so much that Maggie Nichols the CEO of the Eureka! Ranch now she's actually started up at various points we've had at a market research group which is the Merwin decision support group.

Doug: [00:34:43] She's just started that group up again because while we teach people to do it what we're finding is there's a whole lot of companies where before we can even teach them we've got to just show them. And we've just got to do it. And so we have a new ad she's just hired a lady Vicki who's just amazing from one of the top top research firms in the world. One of the world's experts at forecasting and show with her and Greg and different things. We've got a whole team where we can just come in and just do it for you.

Doug: [00:35:11] Ala Carte because we've got to do something about this. If we don't get towards data then everything else we're talking about with innovation engineering everything else we're talking about is not needed because if you don't do data then it's just the same stupidity we've always had. And so then just put some design food foolishness on it that's not going to solve the problem facts and data are our friend as Tim Feely says OK.

Tripp: [00:35:37] So and that's the reason this team's been assembled than as is the help organizations come up with decision data so that they can make make better decisions.

Doug: [00:35:48] Yeah we think of it as a three step process. The first thing is they'll do allocate. They'll have a test. They'll have us do some tests for them and then the second thing they do. We've put together a package where it's a monthly package where we show up on a regular basis and just push them to do more testing and to help them do it. And when we do it that way we're sort of it's halfway between that and teaching them how to do it. We're enabling them to do it. And that cuts their costs by 70 or 80 percent for the tests. So we literally have taken the cost of us doing the test and cutting it by 70 or 80 percent. In the process we're enabling them so that they can sustain it. So and then we go all the way to if they want to learn innovation engineering but it's a step ways process to meet people where they are. You've got industrial companies that have never done research in their life really. I mean they've called it research but you know show me the statistical significance and the standard deviations and now you're doing research no standard deviation no statistical difference. And that's not quantitative research and qualitative. Nice but I wouldn't bet on that.

Tripp: [00:36:57] Okay. And the one last thing I want to cover off before we go to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy as you show I don't know if this is the effect of fear a meaningfully unique ideas that are invented low fare groups you say 40 to medium fear groups 34 high fear groups 31 how does this fit into what we're talking about.

Doug: [00:37:19] Well this is just a measure of teams when they were creating meaningful unique ideas where we track them and this was a fundamental study that Dr. Chris Storman and I did that showed that the impact of fear was was massive. Literally people would shut down in the face of fear. And so it's just it's a torture test that just shows that there's now other people have shown the same thing. But to see it's so striking a group of people in the process create ideas same pattern same groups. This was done over many years. It was it was pretty significant. And if you think about the cumulative effect of that it gets even worse.

Tripp: [00:38:00] All right well let's move to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

Tripp: [00:38:09] This is the brain brew whisk(e)y Academy podcasts where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whisk(e)y distillery business. Eureka ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whisk(e)y company with patented technology like has never been done before

Tripp: [00:38:33] New data new learnings from this theme of data. And so this is your practical application of using data in the whisk(e)y business so that you can demonstrate actually how this stuff works. So what are you learning here.

Doug: [00:38:50] So last weekend we ran a huge test of whiskeys in whisk(e)y cocktails. We had a huge group of people. They tasted them and we went to I don't know was 18 cocktails 12 14 whiskeys.

Doug: [00:39:09] Some people do both. Some people did one we did micro testing. They sent samples and so that they weren't drunk. We already took care of that. And and so we ran the tests and it's interesting going into the test because you know you have hypotheses of what's going to work and what's didn't. And we found some cool stuff some things confirmed and some challenged some others and some have opened graded open questions that we don't know about. OK so we found that our four core whiskeys actually appealed to different groups of consumers.

Doug: [00:39:43] And so there's a very different profile for the people that like whether it's the Edrington set of Relativity Noble Oak and noble oak rye and and the smoke product or it's our Riverboat collection. Is this a very different profile to those and that so that was cool to learn.

Tripp: [00:40:02] So those those four offerings then that you just mentioned is that broken out. Does that happen to break out by know barley wheat. Rye and.

Doug: [00:40:15] Well there's differences in them but the big point is this it's as different people.

Doug: [00:40:20] So what happens is it's the light to new whisk(e)y drinkers like the Relativity product massively more at the end and the Noble Oak product really appeals much more to those who want richness and and and so a way to think about it is. And I'll talk about this in a minute but whick is red versus white wine. You know in a simple sense Relativity appeals more to white wine drinkers Noble Oak appeals more to red wine makers drinkers.

Doug: [00:40:58] The the rye product appeals more to IPA drinkers the stronger. I mean it's just very fascinating to see the dimensions and we've got more analysis to do what we're putting together a three dimensional profile we're running now t tests across them putting the other profile but they are distinct and in fact the the way I say that they appeal to different groups is we took the appeal of the four and we ran what's called a correlation matrix where you compare them against each other. And the appeal of each product doesn't correlate with any other product so the people in general who like one are different than the people are like another and that's what it tells us that. So what I mean what we're saying is is that they're different and that means they bring different customers in.

Tripp: [00:41:48] So when to be fair to say that they're kind of separating themselves into groups like you in your example of red wine versus a white wine drinker you try and different groups from there.

Doug: [00:41:58] Yeah. There's psycho graphics to it and that cocktail trendsetter and different things like that and we're putting together these profiles for them. But the neat thing is I mean it's like if Relativity and Noble Oak co correlated you know as the person who like one also like the other and who didn't like it like the other then you'd say well one of these products isn't needed because it's the same customer but they don't.

Doug: [00:42:21] None of the four correlate with each other. They're all different. And so these are different markets so we know this is a good business decision to have four products. You always look at it and you know do I really need those forms and when I can get rid of. No no. There are four different groups of consumers.

[00:42:36] The second thing we confirmed is while only 18 percent of people in the U.S.. And this is from a gargantuan study. OK so this is real data. Don't say it's not true. It's the fact. Only 18 percent of people in America in the last twelve months drank whisk(e)y 18 percent.

Tripp: [00:42:54] Is that any whisk(e)y. Whether it's neat or mixed it was.

Doug: [00:42:58] Anyway anyway. OK hmm. Oh by the way 18 percent drink whisk(e)y 20 percent of those drink it neat. So that would be three point six percent of the American population trick. Let's just be specific there. Get over yourself. 90 percent have a whisk(e)y cocktail they love. So we had a wide group of people people that didn't drink whisk(e)y. And what we found is there is a cocktail that works for 90 percent plus and you know whisk(e)y puts a depth in cocktails that you don't get from gin or vodka and that kind of stuff.

Tripp: [00:43:34] Ok just for clarification is that 90 percent the 90 percent of the 18 percent or 90 percent of the 100 percent OK. OK.

Doug: [00:43:45] And we were also surprised that we've got to dig deeper into this. But there's a cocktail called the Sazerac which I don't think we've done yet.

Tripp: [00:43:53] Yes we have. Yeah we did.

Doug: [00:43:55] OK well Sazerac is a top I gotta make a list of all the cocktails we've.

Tripp: [00:43:59] We need a cookbook together.

Doug: [00:44:02] I know to do that.

Doug: [00:44:03] I should start to put them pull them out. But the the Sazerac is a new orleans classic It's a very boozy cocktail but it's got a really good balance to it and against other boozy cocktails where they dropped off the Sazerac had a much broader appeal than I thought. And so it made me think that we've got to think deeper you know we can't just stereotype and say a boozy cocktail where there isn't you know it's not like a highball with a lot of liquid in it or something that's not going to appeal to non whisk(e)y drinkers. It is possible to get them but you've got to have more balance to it. And this is a balance that's in the size working some people like the liquor store. Some people don't. Which is a different issue but there is there is more potential for cocktails than we understand. So we have to think about that surprise. And that was a surprise. Another surprise is that so we have this dream to create this whisk(e)y wizard that guides people to the right whisk(e)y and cocktail and you know that we would add some people at the ranch to saying this is never going to work.

Doug: [00:45:06] I mean it's this way. It can't work. But we found that some things you'd expect like frequency of whisk(e)y drinking preference for Scotch versus bourbon. Very different profiles of the products that people drink and things like that. And then we found some things that I would not expect the red wine versus white wine that I talked about that literally sent you I mean literally the four products I talked about. You're going from white wine to deep red wine. All right. You know the big cabin ace.

[00:45:36] I mean it's almost like I can ask you what wine you like or what kind of beer you like. And I can tell you of my four whiskeys which one you should try it is spooky it's spooky. Same thing with whisk(e)y trendsetter. We asked people Are you asked for ideas and advice on cocktails. And sure enough that will point you towards different ones. Do you like hot and spicy food that's going to point you to certain cocktails. I mean interestingly hot and spicy food.

Doug: [00:46:05] There's a there's a famous Cocktail in New Orleans and again New Orleans great drinking city. Brennan's brandy milk punch and the team the Brain Brew crew did a twist on this where they did a bourbon milk punch but when you use half and half. Which I'm going to talk about in a minute. Well let's talk about it. Bourbon milk punch where we replace the brandy with bourbon and and so we'll.

Doug: [00:46:36] Take an ounce and a half of noble oak bourbon.

Doug: [00:46:39] Two and a half ounces of half and half the cream.

Doug: [00:46:43] An ounce of cream of coconut shake it.

Doug: [00:46:47] And then put some shaved chocolate on the top of it. You know just great some some chocolate bar into the top of it and and so you know the bourbon milk punch brandy milk punch is classically simple serve and vanilla in place a simple syrup and vanilla. We use cream of coconut. In fact Lydia Carson of the ranch actually invented this thing that we were doing and and it and it's amazing.

Doug: [00:47:14] And people who like tight and spicy love this cocktail right now. Hey you. I'm thinking that they need the cream to cool down the heat or something. But you know and I would never guess that I would guess that people that were like tight and spicy would like the smoked whisk(e)y I would guess that but I would never have guessed the bourbon punch and it was also the number one cocktail with non whisk(e)y drinkers. And I would never have gone there. Mm. They loved it. In fact during the tasting what happened is we happen to make up an extra batch of it.

Doug: [00:47:49] And and as we're going around we had this big room of people I don't know 70 80 90 people are not like that. And so we're serving them glasses out at the bar we're making this stuff up.

Doug: [00:47:59] And I went by the tables and I like three of the tables they say you got any more of that one you got any more that one. And I went out and guys got him. Oh yeah. We made an extra batch. I bring it in and they literally passed it table or it was popping up. It's it's Hitler. And I would tell you craft distillers out there make the the brain brew bourbon milk punch make the bourbon make punch. Try it try it tonight. If you do nothing else I don't care if you hate hate whisk(e)y.

Doug: [00:48:27] Get yourself a nice craft bourbon. I'll always going to support the craft guys or get our Noble Oak bourbon which comes from a craft company in partnership with Edrington get the Noble Oak and some half and half cream of coconut and rock on man.

Tripp: [00:48:44] I mean it's kind of a laugh to try that one too. I'm just. Just a note. It was episode 9 or newsletter 9 that the Sazerac recipe was talked about. So folks want to go back to that. They can go back to Episode 9 and listen to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy segment or they can listen to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcasts and get it from there. Well you one of the two.

Doug: [00:49:11] I also mentioned to folks I know there's a lot of folks in the craft industry or there's people that are thinking about creating their own whisk(e)y. We will be in Minneapolis for the Craft Spirits Association is having its annual conference in there.

Doug: [00:49:28] It's called American Craft Spirits Association ACSA. It's the sixth annual conference for distillers and that's in Minneapolis the 10th 11th and 12th of February.

Doug: [00:49:42] Oh 0. And we'll be there. The Brain Brew Crew will be there in Minneapolis. We've got a we've got a booth there and we'll be talking to folks. And if you'd like to connect love to have you come by. That's 10th 11th and 12th. The ACA AC as a distinguished conference in the Hyatt Regency regency in Minneapolis.

Tripp: [00:50:04] Ok. We'll be sure to put a link out there to that in the show notes then too. Very good. Well this was interesting. We went in to quote things I'm sure we're going to revisit some of these things on data as we go into future newsletters and and episodes of the podcast. But now I that we got it we got a little of everything there we got the oh the issues associated with the data the fact that it's out there and now you've also got using the data you know applying it to the to the whisk(e)y. So very good.

Doug: [00:50:45] Excellent well the whole year the whole year we're going to be focused on data. That's my focus. OK. Let's get smarter. All right. OK. Thanks

Tripp: [00:51:06] Is it time to use artificial intelligence (AI) in Innovation forecasting? We believe the answer is yes! The Truth Teller system shows evidence of picking winning innovations 7x better than executives. Be sure to look at our show notes for this episode to download more about the Truth Teller system or use go.drivingeureka.com forward slash truthteller

[00:00:33] The Driving Eureka! Podcast - Episode 14

[00:01:27] Segment 1 - The Tyranny of Convenience

[00:01:57] Tim Wu Quote

[00:05:11] Learn by Teaching

[00:07:49] Love Learning

[00:09:10] Be Transparent about What You Know and Don't Know

[00:09:52] The Driving Eureka! Book Segment

[00:10:08] Cycles to Mastery foor Learning

[00:10:58] The Mission of the Eureka! Ranch and It's Learning Development

[00:11:47] Enabling Everyone to Learn

[00:13:21] Teaching Innovation Mastery to the Willing - How It Works

[00:16:23] Expanding Cycles of Mastery to Universities and Colleges

[00:17:16] Benjamin Blooms Influence on Cycles to Mastery

[00:19:42] Universities Failing Students Rather are Failing Us

[00:22:04] Systemizing Grading

[00:23:20] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:23:55] Great Companies, Great Distilleries Go Deep

[00:25:03] Going Deep on Wood for Whisk(e)y

[00:27:56] Mission and Going Deep on Wood

[00:29:45] Scarcity of Wood Gives Way to Limited Editions

[00:31:48] The Classic Rock Serve

[00:34:30] Whisk(e)y - Best Taste on Ice for 7 Minutes

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast. We share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas.

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whisk(e)y maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka! Ranch and author of the driving Eureka book.

Tripp: [00:00:33] This is episode number 14 of the Driving Eureka! podcast which correlates with Doug Hall's newsletter from January 24th that you can link to at Doug Hall dot com.

Tripp: [00:00:48] Click on the menu newsletters and you can sign up for the newsletter and also read this week's newsletter as well as the one that preceded it. This week's feature article it's time to resist the tyranny of convenience that driving Eureka book segment is a new way of learning cycles to mastery the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy segment is great companies great distilleries go deep and then the classic rocks serve we'll talk about two.

Tripp: [00:01:27] So it's time to resist that tyranny of convenience you really rail against in your newsletter about we got it too good.

Doug: [00:01:40] So I was going through some papers cleaning up after the end of the year and I found an article titled The Tyranny of convenience by Tim Wu in the New York Times international edition and the closing paragraph said it well. Tim wrote.

Doug: [00:01:57] So let's reflect on the tyranny of convenience. Cry more often to resist it stupefying power and see what happens. We must never forget the joy of doing something slow and something difficult. The satisfaction of not doing what is easiest. The constellation of inconvenient choices may be all that stands between us and the life of total efficient conformity. I mean you talk about kind of flushing it here.

Doug: [00:02:28] I mean it's just saying you know our world is just becoming easy. Whether it's the digital world I can read the snippet. I don't have to read the book artificial intelligence or I needed to learn how to do so rather than actually learn how to use the saw.

Doug: [00:02:42] I'm going to watch the YouTube video that shows me how to make this one little cut in and I'm going to be you know nanometres deep with no depth of understanding on things. And he really takes a hard position. And I would agree with him that we don't spend the time to really go deep in things. We take the convenient less travel path. We don't really force ourselves to really learn something. And so what we're disengaged and we're unexcited and we're bored because we you know if we don't know how to do it we don't start.

Tripp: [00:03:19] It's a way you. So what in essence he's seen and I assume then Doug that you take this narrative that he basically is espousing here because we have it so convenient we aren't going deep that we're going the path of least resistance. On the other hand you know when I sit there and I start to read what he's saying is yeah. But we've worked awfully hard to get here.

Tripp: [00:03:45] So you know nowadays and it's funny I would be curious of your read on it but you know I sit in these webinars sometimes with different companies there's one called Teachable which is a website where you can do you know teach something that you know about. But when I listen to the conversations going on all of these people there are making all types of money teaching something or basically saying I don't really know that much about it but I'm going to learn it as I teach it and I don't know if that's necessarily what what it's railing against. But you know we have a whole series of things that are being constructed now. And on the Internet associated with well I don't really have that much depth with it but I'm going to get some depth with it.

Tripp: [00:04:40] Is that a bad course then or. I mean yeah part of me says Shouldn't you be in it shouldn't you know something before you start to teach something as opposed to learning how to do it. But I experience both ways. So in other words I've started into something with some knowledge certainly more than the person that you know is attracted to it or you know that I'm consulting with but I me but I'm going to learn as I go to. So how would you differentiate.

Doug: [00:05:11] Yeah yeah. SC I see my thought is yes you can learn by teaching. I mean you know teaching others is a great way for you to learn it and we'll talk about that coming up in the next segment on from from the book about how to learn in our cycles to mastery approach.

Doug: [00:05:29] And so I think that definitely is a thing but the fundamental issue is is you've got to have depth of knowledge. I mean to really make a difference you've really got to get some depth of knowledge means you've got to make some commitments. And I'm not saying you can do everything you can you keep convenience in certain areas in real life where you just basically skip over the service but somewhere in your life have at least one thing during 2019 where you're going to go deep well you're going to really struggle you're going to try and fail and do it again and do it again and learn and really learn something really learn something become immersed in it. And as part of that process then start to teach others. Yes. If that's if that's your desire but if we don't commit ourselves to something then we're just like androids. I mean we're just like robots going around you know as he says a life of total efficient conformity. I mean my God how boring is that. You know we've got to take ourselves and say I'm going to commit to something I'm going to learn this thing I'm going to M.S. I and that's why you know we teach a fundamentals course in innovation during and then we have mastery and mastery is mastery. People like what can I do it quick. No it's mastery Damn it. Did you see the name. You know where you really have to put some time in and you gotta get some practice and you got to apply it and you've got to do it. But this world of you know simple and fast things is not doing it now and I'm just gonna preemptively say it.

Doug: [00:07:07] Now you might say well jeez yeah you're whisk(e)y you're making your whisk(e)y fast instead of old. Well yeah but there's no value add to slow.

Doug: [00:07:14] Ok. I mean it is what it is the mastery here is the process of putting drone together you've got to do a whole lot of permutations and you guys spent some time on it. And we've got to win our case we have 24 variables we have to mess with. Ya got to put some time in. You got to pick something that you're going to be great at.

Tripp: [00:07:33] And so and so how do you know whether you've achieved that or not.

Doug: [00:07:38] It doesn't matter it's never ending.

Tripp: [00:07:44] Oh yeah I guess I get that but.

Doug: [00:07:45] There is no achievement I. You keep doing it.

Doug: [00:07:49] Well well let's let's do this for the love of learning and it's for the love of mastery and learning a new thing. I mean Margaret England a wonderful artist she's in her 80s. She makes incredible art. And when I see her in Prince Edward Island. My question to you what's new is she's like Well I'm trying this new thing now and she's trying something new that's not I mean that's being alive. That's not a life of total efficient conformity. It's never ending.

Tripp: [00:08:16] No I get I get the fact it's never ending. What I'm saying is is this this thought process that seems to be alive today of fake it until you make it type of a mentality I think can be very destructive. So what my question is along the line of kind of a continuum if if I don't know and I am faking it until I make it which I think is not totally a could go as well. Is there a definitive point where you could say I've got enough mastery now that I can talk about this. Well how might when I say.

Doug: [00:09:01] I'm fine with it no matter where you are as long as you're transparent about it.

Tripp: [00:09:05] Yeah. That therein lies part of the problem I think a lot of the companies.

Doug: [00:09:10] Just like whisk(e)y. I mean we tell people how we make it with time compression as long as you're transparent I'm fine with anything. Yeah.

Doug: [00:09:16] It's when you purport and put on airs that that I've got a frustration with it so I can learn from somebody who's just learning Hey helped me learn this. I'm cool with that and I'm cool with working with Walter Werner a true master at systems thinking and learning from him. You know. Either way I'm good I'm good. Just so long as you're transparent to me that's the key.

Tripp: [00:09:37] Okay. And I think that that would have be a good filter for for some of the people that are out there.

Tripp: [00:09:52] It's time now for the Driving Eureka! book segment with author and investor Doug Hall.

Tripp: [00:10:03] Well let's let's move to our Driving Eureka! book segment.

Tripp: [00:10:08] A new way of learning cycles to mastery and I'm really interested in this because I'm also I'm interested in how you went about putting together because you don't steal your thunder away from here but you know especially as you got into some of the RFD and putting together your cycles to mastery training program he go through the six things brought up multiple questions so I'm going to let you speak on it for. So I'm probably going to have lots of questions associated with that about how it was developed and and how does this fit.

Tripp: [00:10:40] Yeah. Well let's talk because we in our last newsletter you you talked about you know narrative and aim and those things. How did this fit the narrative first of all of the what the Ranch was doing and then kind of how it formed from there might be a good place to to take people.

Doug: [00:10:58] So our mission at the Ranch is to change the world. Through systems that enable innovation by everyone everywhere every day. And as we started to take our courses out our innovation in courses to campus and executive training what we found is that adults had different perspectives. Some innovation is one of those things where you make a decision in life I can do it or I can't do it and faculty on campuses feel like they can do it or they can't do it. It's the same thing. And so as we started to expand we ran into all kinds of problems all kinds of issues and we needed to accomplish our mission we need to find a way to enable everybody to learn how to innovate with increased speed decreased risk.

Doug: [00:11:47] How could we help everybody do it. And the existing system of teaching as they call it is sage on stage preaching people doing some things and then tests to find the smart ones and the dumb ones. You know my job was not to find the smart ones and the dumb ones mice. My plan was to enable everybody to be able to do it to enable everybody to do it.

Doug: [00:12:09] And so it was Jake Ward of the University of Maine. He was he was at a session we were doing we're helping out the College Board on some stuff and he said Doug I think we're gonna have to invent a whole new way of teaching. I said Well I don't know anything about teaching. He says so yeah. But I don't know that anybody else does. You've got a system so use your system to invent it.

Doug: [00:12:30] And that's one of those things where you go dammit I wish he had said that you know. And so you know to our point of going deep you know we looked at this and we said you know inventing a new way of teaching people like I need this like a hole in the head right. Where do you begin.

Doug: [00:12:49] And we had a method for doing it. And so I said I think this is important. And so literally it took us two years to start to put this thing together and we're still working on it but it took two years really to get to a first prototype that was anything and we read the literature we ran experiments.

Doug: [00:13:05] I mean our goal was how come we've been able to everybody I don't care who you are you can innovate and we took the work of Benjamin Bloom on the two sigma problem formative assessment Deming PDSA cycle quality control charting flip classroom a whole bunch of different parts.

Doug: [00:13:21] We put together and we created this system called cycles to mastery and we guarantee that if you were willing you can achieve mastery. And and it's a collection of steps. The first is a digital class. We broke the class the innovation chain curriculum into skills and sub skills just like they have with advanced placement courses and on campus each week you do a skill that's a skill every week. And there's 48 skills in the total curriculum over a number of courses do a digital class with seven minute videos that cover each one for each sub skill. You watch those. You take a no stress quiz at the end of it which is formative assessment gives us a sense if they're getting it or not then they do a lab class of some replications of applying it and then an application class where we take it into a broader thing and we take not just that skill but the things you'd learn the week before and the week before and we bring it all together. So you see how it fits into the whole and then there'll be a reflection class that you write where you write a reflection on what you learned and why it matters which helps solidify learning literature shows.

Doug: [00:14:33] And then there will be experience classes. So the classic class on campus is Digital Lab application and reflection and you've put in assignments and the faculty gives you feedback and you can resubmit resubmit resubmit until you get it right. Because our goal is not to test you to say you got it or you didn't but to keep challenging you until you meet you master that at 11:00 because every element we teach is important. And then there'll be segments if it's a class you might have eight weeks of skills and then you might have a four week experience where we give you a real world challenge to have you now put it together so you know You've learned it in digital you've done it in lab. You've done it in application you've written a reflection. Now you start to do it. I mean you got five times through this skill you really really really really learned this stuff. You really learn it. And if you get it wrong you're given feedback and the job of the faculty is to help you get it. That's what we're here for is to help you get it.

[00:15:35] And I as I said in the newsletter and I wrote in the Driving Eureka! book In retrospect the decision to invest the time energy and money to invent a new system of teaching is probably the most important decision we have made. It's enabled us to have a scalable system for truly Democratizing Innovation across entire companies countries and cultures.

Doug: [00:15:54] That's going deep man. That's going deep. We had to build the tool to teach the stuff we need wanted to teach that's going deep so.

Tripp: [00:16:05] So the innovation engineering system is using this methodology is just out of curiosity is the University of Maine are they kind of build their classes other than innovation engineering around this. What you've learned or what's the what's that what's the outreach of this.

Doug: [00:16:23] So so we've got it on campus. We've got about a dozen schools we're about to expand to 100 or 200 more this year.

[00:16:29] And you know we help schools because we give all kinds of scholarships to make it so that they can afford to do it make it really cost efficient for students to do it.

Doug: [00:16:39] It's it's subsidized heavily. And so we're using it for innovation it during we've had conversations with people about using this as a method of teaching other courses. And we've got discussions going on with some people and some companies are starting to use it but we're so focused against our mission which is we're not in the education systems business selling that that we're using it for our means.

Doug: [00:17:04] And I mean one day we'll probably do some other stuff but right now we're very focused on changing the world buy through systems that enable innovation by everyone everywhere every day and this is a key tool to doing it.

Tripp: [00:17:16] Okay. And so I just came here. I'm am familiar with some of these things but you list six six things here that are part of it of the cycle the mastery work you mentioned the work of Benjamin Bloom on the sick the two sigma problem which I mean ask about in the second. The formative assessment Deming PDSA cycles which we've talked about before quality control charting flipped classroom and competency based learning let's just pick a couple of these the one I'm probably most curious because I'm not familiar with the work as Benjamin Bloom and to signal problem what are we referencing there.

Doug: [00:17:51] So Benjamin Bloom famously wrote a thing called the Bloom taxonomy and it's very well known in academic circles. But he also did a thing called the 2 Sigma Problem which was a way to figure out a way to help students who couldn't get it get it.

Doug: [00:18:08] And he ran experiments with tutoring where a student didn't get it was given feedback and to do it again and again and again. And he found that he could get 80 percent of the students to the level of the top 20 percent normally. So a mega improvement people could learn and when I read the article what it sounded to me like was a plan to study X cycle and it really impressed me. The problem with the bloom's approach towards tutoring is it was extremely expensive to have one on one tutoring and so I said What if I use that as a foundation and using the digital tools in our way to help us get scale. And since then we know we've built all kinds of things that have helped make it so it's much more efficient.

Doug: [00:19:02] But the foundation of what we're doing is Bloom's you know he had a fancy name for an expert tutoring or interactive tutoring or there was some name that he had with which I can't remember at the time but. But that's the basis which is. I mean to me it's a PSA cycle plan to study act do it again do it again do it again. You bastard.

Tripp: [00:19:25] Yeah. That really flies in the face of the way our education system is set up today. So because it's it's kind of the schedule is rigid but the quality is flexible. So. And I get that and I don't take credit for that.

Tripp: [00:19:42] That was David Langford quote from one of my Deming podcasts. But you know he said then the reverse needs to be true that the quality is is fixed and the schedule needs to be flexible meaning and I and do you know the analogy I use Doug on this is we got kids now you know grow into engineering schools and law schools and you know schools to be doctors and things of that sort. And then they flunk out of a class. It could be calculus that might be something like that and then they're out that's it. You know you can take it again and you know it's kind of like you know keep beating yourself on you know in the head with a hammer until you can because it nothing's changed in the system. You're still educating the same way and this person or group of people because I know for instance at Purdue you know like only this guy I ran into a producer that only 28 percent really passed the calculus class and that's their way of weeding them out. I'm sitting here. Do we have. We have a huge shortage of engineers do we really want to not allow our baby to go from you know crawl to walk.

Doug: [00:20:55] That drives me crazy that you know faculty on campus will will use math. Oftentimes they will use math to weed people out and I'm like isn't your job to teach all these people you know. These are the aim of the system helps them to find the smart ones and the dumb ones. Yeah it takes. I don't need you as a teacher I you just give me a test and figure that out if you want.

Doug: [00:21:18] Now your job is to enable these people to learn it. And in fact that's what students say about eyes as they say you're here to help us. That's very different than most classes where they're here to judge us.

Tripp: [00:21:32] Now I agree and that's one thing I found refreshing about taking the innovation engineering classes is. Yeah. No you don't. It's not easy to pass when you go through your your things. But you know you keep you keep getting feedback from you know teacher Brad Hall and he sits over there in the back of the classroom and he's evaluating you know and I finally figured out that he was kind of you know the wizard behind the you know the curtains.

Doug: [00:22:04] He was back there a lot of the grading and. And the thing is this so he has the rest of that. Yeah. He's not just his opinion. He has grading standards. Oh yeah. You know what is right what is wrong and feedback. In other words we've systematized the grading such that you have a student take it there you take it down at the University of Alabama. You take it up in Oregon wherever you take the class you're graded by the same standard or as you know. That's a remarkable concept the idea of standardization of grading in college courses is something that is almost it's like nonexistent right.

Tripp: [00:22:42] Well it also then provides feedback to what you're missing in your in your teaching and making that better. But it's just the whole the whole process is very interesting to me as far as I've not experienced anything like that until I went to the innovation engineering classes and that was it was an interesting experience but.

Doug: [00:23:02] But you can learn it. Yeah yeah yeah. No you can't do this. I mean come on. Yeah.

Tripp: [00:23:07] If I can do this anybody can who is creating ideas. Give me a break.

Doug: [00:23:12] No there's no excuses for not learning stuff. There's no excuses now.

Tripp: [00:23:16] And this is an opportunity. Go deep on innovation.

Tripp: [00:23:20] All right. Well what's move to our Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcast where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whisk(e)y distillery business Eureka! Ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whisk(e)y Company with patented technology like has never been done before

Tripp: [00:23:55] The topic here. Great companies great distilleries go deep and you say they have a great company you need to go deep on something will you. This is kind of your theme that you've talked about here overall and your January 24th newsletter you've sparked you've spoken about going dead people the need for people to go deeper say Hi how is this playing out in this distillery.

Doug: [00:24:22] Well it's not dissimilar to last weeks when we when we talked about mission. You know you've got that mission now let's do the work you know get in on something and in the case of you know a whisk(e)y distillery that's what's gonna make you meaning fleet.

Doug: [00:24:37] Ok. So you've got this mission but what's gonna be your defining point difference What are you going to really do this different. And in our case what we came to when we thought about enabling people with different whisk(e)y is we thought OK this different things we could do.

Doug: [00:24:50] We could distill it differently. We could use different grains. We could do some grains. We could do really weird grains and buckwheat and things that aren't normally done or heritage grains or organic grains and we could do those.

Doug: [00:25:03] But when we looked at it you know 70 percent of the flavor of a whisk(e)y comes from the wood it is the wood in the interaction of the ligaments in the wood with the spirit that creates the thing that we know is a whisk(e)y the color and the flavor and so we decided that we were gonna go deep on wood. We were going to know wood like nobody in the world knows what now part of this came from my background.

Doug: [00:25:30] I'd spent over over 20 years working with Edrington that makes the Macallan who are masters of wood with regards to and particularly European Sherry oak.

Doug: [00:25:39] Which is why Macallan has this incredible luxury you know just like nothing else. It's also the most expensive whisk(e)y in the world because of that. And so I I had understood the value of wood from that. And so we just went into wood.

Doug: [00:25:53] And so we built our systems so that we could test as quick and fast as possible so whether it's using old oak new oak Japanese oak European oak Canadian oak whether it's using maple or cherry or chestnut or walnut generally hardwoods is what you use whether it's toasting it in different ways from a light toast to a char.

Doug: [00:26:23] And I said we just need know we'd better day by US and the world needs wood and we could do it very rapidly with time compression so we ran over 2000 experiments ran over 500 consumer taste tests to deepen our learning.

Doug: [00:26:34] So I mean that's called going deep. You know we went all in on the wonder of wood. And so I mean we get it we get it. We decided to not just still but to buy raw spirit.

Doug: [00:26:48] I mean we could distill but you know I just looked at the math I saw the value add that you make if I make it. You know other than which grain you use which is maybe 25 percent of it maybe five percent of it is do you run you're still cool. I mean it's like I said before it's not making beer.

Doug: [00:27:03] It's doing spirits where it's the whisk(e)y maker who puts the barrels together that really creates the flavors that we know as whisk(e)y.

Doug: [00:27:11] And so you know that's what we did is we went deep on wood and wood is the way and the different treatments of wood whether it's old world a new world. That's our means to deliver on customizing your whisk(e)y because you basically become a wood master when you do our stuff because you can be a distiller and you can be a fancy distiller but that's not going to have an impact on what you get in the glass. I understand people love distilling and I'm cool with that if that's your thing. Rock on for us.

Doug: [00:27:44] We can't get the differences from the distilling that we can get with wood to give people really different tasting bourbon. Giving people really different tastings rise or Barclays or wheats or whatever it is that we might be doing.

Doug: [00:27:56] I mean that's where and for our mission would was the thing that we went deep on and we've gone deep and and I'll be honest with you we may have gone even further we needed to go because we've got compulsive about it and I had to pull the team out and just say ship ship ship it out because we are weak we are addicted to knowing more about that would I mean we the work we do inspecting wood and checking wood and evaluating it is compulsive because our process goes so fast we have to having practical quality so we are I mean no one is this fanatical about wood as as as we are because wood is where the flavor comes from.

Tripp: [00:28:43] So Doug a question that comes up when I hear you say that is the you know there's only so much wood. Right. I mean you have to find a wood that there is an abundance of to be able to make you know consistent whisk(e)y you know over a period of time in other words you if it's a rare wood that's great you're going to get a taste but you may only have enough to make 50 cases or something like that is that.

Doug: [00:29:13] Yeah well it's different it's different things if you're doing it. I mean in the whisk(e)y business one of the things that's great is limited editions.

Doug: [00:29:21] And so there is a virtue when I get some very special wood that a person has or we find you know like we've got some 200 year old wood in all of our products or from an old barn that we that had fallen down and we reclaimed the wood clean the outside and cut it up and charred it.

Doug: [00:29:40] And so we can give an amazing taste with that. And but they can be limited editions.

Tripp: [00:29:45] You know it's a real scarcity.

Doug: [00:29:48] There's there's plenty. And it doesn't take much wood to do a bottle of whisky. It's just it's just not a lot of wood. So there's no real you know it's not like cutting down trees to make barrels. I mean this is it's pretty easy in fact we can use barrels we can cut barrels up and do it. I mean we would do that with the with our no below product is we take European share oak and we cut the barrels out and use that.

Tripp: [00:30:11] Ok. But but you said that what was the percentage you said 70 percent of the flavor comes from.

Doug: [00:30:18] 70 percent. Yeah that's pretty much what the experts will tell you is 70 percent is the is the wood and and the skill of the whisky maker putting the barrels together.

Doug: [00:30:28] And if we had barrels at the top of the warehouse versus the bottom of the warehouse they're going to age differently and they'll have it in the center of the building versus the edges of the building.

Doug: [00:30:36] And so the skill to put that together in that would that 70 percent probably 20 25 percent is the grain choice wheat tastes different than Rye which tastes different than corn which tastes different than bourbon which tastes different than barley and probably 5 percent is the distiller. Now that's assuming that that's still it does their job. If they if they do it badly that's that ruins everything but if you make a dirty spirit that isn't very good then that's a different issue. But assuming that you're competent at what you're doing the value add in whisky unlike beer it's not the distiller it is the whisky maker who manages the barrels and puts together the whiskeys and you mentioned this before but basically you're whisk(e)y maker then uses the innovation engineering system to go through the cycles of learning and mastery associated with your whiskeys.

Doug: [00:31:33] Yeah right. Yeah. Which is no different than a chef making something and then trying four or five different versions on it to see which one customers like the best. We just happened to do the same thing and we do with quantitative research. So it's the same thing. It's a never ending learning how can I make the product better.

Tripp: [00:31:48] Okay. Good. All right well let's talk about the classic rock's serve. You threw a little bit of a curveball at me here. I'm usually looking for the next drink. This is not really about that per say it's it's about whisky and putting ice and water in it.

Doug: [00:32:09] Yeah. So you know only about 20 percent of people drink whisky drink it neat. Despite all the noise on it they make a lot of noise 80 percent. They add ice water or mixers with it. So most whisky over 80 percent of whisky is consumed with something in it. I happen to like it with ice. And so this week while we're talking about going deep and talking about wood I said this was the week when we had to not do anything to get in the way of the whisky. Now that said I'd still put some ice in Philip Glass about half full put some use our noble oak product that I've been talking about I know below bourbon you know double golden San Francisco ninety five score ultimate challenge.

Doug: [00:32:50] And and just you know put some ice and stir it you know a dozen times or so and just sip and savor that thing and you're gonna get you've got the new American oak the bourbon than the European Sherry oak. So it's this kind of wonderful depth. So sometimes bourbons can be kind of shrill they can be kind of one dimensional and very corny as in the flavor corn here you're gonna get just a richness and a character.

Doug: [00:33:21] Some people have said to me it's got I'm stereotyping which is not fair because their products are not but bourbons oftentimes are kind of one dimensional scotches are oftentimes richer in flavor. But the scotches can also be somewhat dirtier. There can be some smoke and from the peat and there can be also the barley can be a bit gnarly as we say. And at the same time the you know it'll be a lot cleaner with the bourbon and so what we're trying to do is we do clean but rich so a way to think of this is by mixing these two Woods. We're getting a fusion of the cleanness of a bourbon but with a richness without the nastiness of a Scotch it's not really because it is still a bourbon but the double wood here really puts a depth of character in the sherry oak wood which you know those barrels cost like 50 times more than the regular bourbon barrels do X bourbon barrels.

Tripp: [00:34:30] Okay. And what was that like. I think that one of the previous Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy segments you talked about the pool you put the ice in for seven minutes and that's kind of the optimal time. I don't know if you were just messing with me or if that was a real thing.

Doug: [00:34:50] Yeah. No. No. So. So what happened is is we we put I I like it with ice and it's craft distilleries so craft people make choices and you make what you love and then you take it to the world. That's that's how we do it. We do the testing to optimize but if we don't like it if we don't put it into a test it's because of the way it is we're doing it.

Doug: [00:35:12] And so what we ended up with is we added up a little over 20 percent more square inches of wood per bottle so if you look at a barrel so many square inches of wood divided by the number of bottles of spirit are inside. And we took it up a little bit and then we adjusted the compression that we did and we made it such that oftentimes with with whiskeys in particular bourbon sometimes and scotches some of them will they'll fall apart. If you add ice to it the flavor drops off real quick just right off the cliff. And we wanted it to have with ice. And so we made it with extra wood and so the result is just you taste it and it's good but it gets better over about seven minutes and then it starts down the other side. And so the second sip is better than the first and the third will be better than the second it's general it's a little bar trick that we do with people we say don't try it. Now wait a little bit. I tried again and it actually gets better with ice and that's that's designed into the product that's there for a reason. We did that on purpose huh.

Tripp: [00:36:23] That's interesting. Well this this episode is going is prior to your distillery opening this weekend. So the next time we talk in your newsletter will you'll be able to talk to the opening of your distillery this weekend is there anything you want to say about the opening night.

Doug: [00:36:46] Actually I'd rather not talk about that OK because I may or may not be officially opening we may be running an R&D experiment. Oh maybe a quiet opening.

Tripp: [00:36:58] Ok. I got you I got you remember one of our segments was about patience. All right. OK. All right. Well go deep hope everybody takes that to heart.

Tripp: [00:37:11] I mean it's OK to have convenience but if you're going to use the convenience and it frees you up what's it gonna free you up to then go do you know you ever.

Doug: [00:37:21] You know all these people spend this time to free you up so they freed you up. Now what are you going to do with it. Because of that. What you gonna do with your life. Mm hmm. Get up get out get going. That's what I'm telling you to do.

Tripp: [00:37:31] All right. Very good. Well thank you Doug. Look forward to your next newsletter. Excellent

Tripp: [00:37:51] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for limited time for things a one hour abridged audio of the driving Eureka book. A subscription to the driving Eureka newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast track big ideas and the newsletter. Has other offers that are not paid public. The driving Eureka prescription for success. You answer questions and we'll help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas and you get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate. And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend. To get these offers. Go to w w w dot Doug Hall dot com forward slash podcast.

Tripp: [00:38:50] And don't forget to subscribe to the driving Eureka podcast on iTunes.

Driving Eureka! Newsletter 13

This is the thirteenth episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: We Must All Hang Together; Segment 2: Alignment in Bringing Divergent Groups Together; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy.

Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:33] 13th Episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast

[00:01:22] The Benjamin Franklin Influence on Eureka! Ranch

[00:05:52] Franklins Role in Getting the Stamp Act Repealed

[00:08:29] The Cartoon that Helped Britain Change Their Mind

[00:11:56] The Need for a Mission Bigger Than Ourselves

[00:12:53] The Driving Eureka! Book Segment

[00:13:07] Getting Alignment on Aim

[00:13:30] Individual and Department Goals Can Interfere with Aim

[00:14:18] Most Companies Lack Aim and Alignment

[00:15:31] Commanders Intent > Command and Control

[00:15:54] Commander's Intent -Explained

[00:17:13] The Narrative and the Blue Card

[00:19:35] The Story of the Blue Card

[00:24:04] The Narrative as the Difference Maker

[00:24:57] History of the Narrative

[00:25:37] People are Motivated by Narratives, Not Metrics

[00:27:11] Leaders Need to Inspire

[00:29:38] Aimless as Uninspiring

[00:30:53] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:31:31] Mission and Alignment at a Distillery

[00:33:48] Making Whisk(e)y Cool

[00:34:04] Everyone Deserves Their Own Whisk(e)y

[00:35:06] The Whisk(e)y

[00:37:33] Making Custom Whisk(e)y

[00:38:11] Making Your Own Personal Whisk(e)y

[00:40:48] The Dr. Franklin Cocktail

[00:41:35] The Making of the Dr. Franklin Cocktail

[00:42:46] The Dr. Franklin - Step 1

[00:42:49] Step 2

[00:42:51] Step 3

[00:43:01] Step 4

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcasts where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas.

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:23] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whiskey maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka! ranch and author of the driving Eureka! book.

Tripp: [00:00:33] This is the thirteenth episode of the Driving Eureka! podcasts. This podcasts corresponds with Doug Hall's newsletter in particular January 17th newsletter that you can read at Doug Hall dot com. You can't sign up or read the newsletter by clicking in the menu newsletter. This week our feature story is that we must all hang together or most assuredly we will hang separately Driving Eureka! book segment is on alignment and bringing divergent groups together and our Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy segment discusses the power of mission and the Doctor Franklin cocktail.

Tripp: [00:01:22] Ok Doug so here we go. This is when you attend some of your seminars and workshops and things that you have going on at the Eureka! ranch. One of the things that I'll strike you when you walk into the building is all the Franklin stuff as I will refer to it. And you have a plethora of statues and quotes and things whether you're in the bathroom or in the main area. So it's it it's literally permeates the entire aura of what the Eureka! Ranch is.

Doug: [00:02:02] Dr. Franklin is in every room he's there.

Tripp: [00:02:09] You might want to rethink the bathroom thing. But anyway all right. Well let's let's talk about this because it is one of Dr. Franklin's famous quotes. I believe he said it. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong to the Continental Congress that, "We must all hang together or most assuredly we will hang separately." Do I have that right.

Doug: [00:02:29] Yeah yeah you have that right. And I am a Franklin freak. It started with the fact that I was born on January 17th which was the same day as him as well as my grandmother and Janet Merritt and some other friends and and so that got me interested in him.

Doug: [00:02:45] But then as I learned more about him you know being an inventor being an entrepreneur a writer a scientist kind of fit my personality and so I like many. Franklin has served as an inspiration for many out there and so each year when my birthday comes around I have the the books the Franklin papers that have everything that was written to him or by him the Yale University puts together and there's a book and there's a book as he gets older every year there's a book and so I pull that out at the turn of the calendar and start to look at it. And then this year in his sixtieth year which I will be 60 on January 17th year gradually the Franklin was at the time it was an interesting time in that he was basically retiring from the publishing business the printing business with David Hall no relation who is his partner that was coming to an end just as I've stepped down from the Eureka! ranch although taking a different role here. But he was off to new things and one of the big things that he did come February was there had been a huge war one of escalating tensions between Great Britain and the colonies. And Franklin was a guy who really believed in peace and coming together and resolving things really resolved on it. And and it hit me that this was about the Stamp Act that the king had put in to pay for the troops that were over there.

Doug: [00:04:22] He basically didn't want to keep paying for the troops. He figured he'd get the colonies indeed put a charge on all paperwork going back and forth. Well this did not go over well. This did not go over well. And Franklin was representing Pennsylvania. And you know as I said in the in the newsletter in the course of human events again quoting something maybe in the course of human events there'll always be conflict between people tribes teams departments divisions companies and countries. And we have that going on in society today. And I like to get into the politics of Brexit and us. I'm not gonna deal with all of that but that same thing is happening now these tensions and the way Franklin addressed the tension and caused it to diffuse and he ended up being the person who testified in front of Parliament and it was said that his words caused the king to pull back on the stamp act and and prevented the revolution which eventually would come with the tea and the other things would happen later. Although Franklin who felt there's never been a good war or a bad peace was forever trying to resolve it the way he resolved this. It hit me as I was reading it is very much the same way we teach and that I write about in driving Eureka! in the book and we teach an innovation engineering and how we do it in the whiskey distillery which was what Dr.

Doug: [00:05:52] Franklin did is he got the powers to be in London to move to a higher level. In other words instead of the tit for tat he got them to think bigger. He did a famous cartoon which you know basically shows England kind of dismembered and has an arm and a leg and it says New York on it in England. And it's basically the decline of the British Empire tearing apart the British Empire. And he he basically raised it in in the newsletter I have the quote from his son who wrote about it because he had these cards printed and he put an explanation and a moral on it. That he would share with people that was his way to basically politic this thing. And when he spoke of this he got them to think of a higher order. In other words instead of thinking about your need for money in this. Think about the rights of Englishmen. Think about the the the British Empire and the rights that all citizens have. And we are one nation united under a common mission that we are one. And he raised the conversation to a higher level. And he was able to diffuse it. And it worked. And that's the only way when we get into these situations where where there's a debate between two sides and they just can't agree. We have to find a mission that is greater than ourselves and our self interests that we can then create ideas to bring us together.

Tripp: [00:07:31] So so you have in here in the newsletter you have this cartoon which Franklin was famous for putting in and basically his newspapers as you mentioned with the dismembered portions which I actually was doing a little research on because I had not seen this one before. Because he also did the one with the snake a little bit earlier. At least they believe it was done a with the dissected snake of representing the 13 colonies basically getting your idea to have him tonight. But I wasn't.

Tripp: [00:08:08] I wasn't familiar at all with this bill a serious that apparently was a Roman general that you know won all these great battles for Rome but was basically at the end of his life left on the road to begging as he aged.

Tripp: [00:08:29] And that was kind of I was interested in the I'm not sure even how to say it this Latin gateway. Date Obullum Bellasario as the caption that of the banner across but that they were that they were begging for money. So I thought that was that was kind of interesting associated with that. And this all has to do with the. And the sure if you mentioned or not both the stamp act which was the tax that they were doing and in the seven years war but. But I do want to lose sight of the fact that yeah. They certainly were at odds in there. Their missions didn't seemed to be coming together and ultimately I led the war.

Tripp: [00:09:14] But yeah Franklin was able to with this cartoon of all things basically passing it out in England diffused the the act and it only lasted I think at lasted only a few months before they repealed it which I was.

Doug: [00:09:32] I was interesting I was with some this morning the class at the ranch a black belt class and I was telling them the story I was with an expert whose name escapes me but he does scenarios and he was down in South Africa you know as apartheid was coming down and things were happening there and he got the warring parties and I mean we're talking really warring parties here together. And he same concept but a different method. He had them worked through scenarios what could happen as as you know free voting came and such things happened and he played out different scenarios and the scenarios basically showed total destruction of one side or the other. And there was only one of a cooperation and he got them to agree to a higher order mission and purpose and was able to prevent major bloodshed which could well have happened after you know it's somebody you know and you have Mandela and you have been higher leaders who pull it off but kind of miraculous actually. I'm talking about sides if those two can come together and if you know then you know my God we should be able come over these little trivial things that we're debating now.

Doug: [00:10:50] But it is about going to a higher order and and you know this is a method of getting to a mission that is greater than yourself and whether it's down in South Africa whether it's Franklin here. But you know when it only looks like war is the only option when it only looks like fighting it's the option you know or when you're struggling against things. What is the higher order thing. That's how you can bring people together. And and that really hit me that here's the guy literally on January 17th on his birthday his partnership ends with David Hall and in February. He's immediately out you know is saving the world at the time from war.

Doug: [00:11:36] Of course I thought about that Tripp because you know in February I'm going to the craft show selling customers maybe not is.

Tripp: [00:11:43] A different type of war right.

Doug: [00:11:45] But if I was a good drinker so celebrate him. But you know I he was doing something of a higher order. You know I will also be at the show with the community colleges.

Doug: [00:11:56] Fifteen hundred community college people are going to be bringing innovation and training so I'm going to think about that but you know it is interesting that we have to come together and find that higher mission whether it's in our family whether it's with our spouses whether it's with our kids whether it's in our community what's the higher order thing that we can agree on. Ok. So we're debating on these parts but what's the mission bigger than ourselves.

Tripp: [00:12:20] Yeah. And I think that's one thing that we all lack and and probably don't start there. I mean we start to look at the differences as opposed to the things that we would have in common and where we can get alignment on aim which is actually a great segway into our second part here which is your book segment for the Driving Eureka! book segment

Tripp: [00:12:53] It's time now for the driving Eureka! book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall system for bringing everyone together and alignment.

Tripp: [00:13:07] So so now we've we've we've discovered this need for a common aim Common Purpose associated with with things. So how do you address this in the Driving Eureka! book and within innovation engineering system in the systems in general and how you go about innovation and really anything else.

Doug: [00:13:30] But so yeah it's for anything but let's just take the company example just to make sure people got it what will tend to happen in organizations when it's hard to make ideas happen it's because each department and sometimes a small company it's a department of one person is looking out for their self-interest as opposed to the greater interest of the total organization you know they're trying to make their department. It doesn't help. I mean set off here that we give them metrics that their department has to meet. And of course every department hits their metrics and collectively we lose money. You know which is that the chaotic thing because we're working across purposes to each other.

Tripp: [00:14:11] What?

Doug: [00:14:14] You heard of that before.

Tripp: [00:14:15] Oh yeah. See it all the time unfortunately.

Doug: [00:14:18] Yeah. So. So what we're what we came to was as we started to do innovation through the innovation sharing community is we found that there wasn't alignment. And we did survey after survey and we found alignment alignment alignment was the biggest problem not ideas we could do ideas but we couldn't agree on what we were doing and why we were doing it. And so we started to do some work on project objectives and different things and come to find out.

Doug: [00:14:45] We found that there was this very large organization one of the largest in the world that had employees that I would say maybe not always you know rocket scientists with PHDs sometimes people that it was kind of like the job they could get and and but it worked amazingly well. And they used to have a system of command to control where they would tell people what to do. They would just give them orders do this and what they did was they found that that wasn't working because the leader couldn't in the complexity of today's world they couldn't just tell them everything to do because there was a whole lot that the leader couldn't know because it was just it was just happening on a real time basis.

Doug: [00:15:31] And so they went to something called commanders intent. And I'm talking about the military whether it's U.S. forces Canadian forces NATO forces I've confirmed it with all three. They've stopped doing command and control and move to commander's intent where they give they paint the end state of what they're trying to do.

Doug: [00:15:54] And a in one of their documents they call it commander's intent a clear and concise expression of the purpose of the operation and the desired end state that supports Mission Command provides focus to the staff and helps subordinate supporting commanders act to achieve the commander's desired result without further order. Even when the operation does not unfold as planned or quite simply in the absence of further orders you would know what to do.

Doug: [00:16:19] So what we're doing is giving them the purpose of why we need to do this. Setting some boundaries around it and then getting them to think you know so many times we hire employees and then because they're smart. But then we don't allow them to think because we tell them what to do. This is about using their brains which creates more engagement sets up all chain reaction so in the innovation sharing community this ended up being called the Blue Card because the card was blue and innovation engineering is blue and we said it's so important. We're going to give our color to this because this is the higher order bit This gives us the mission and it creates a shared sense of mission of what it is that we're doing. Why are we doing this thing. We know what is important.

Doug: [00:17:13] And so the blue card itself starts out with a name that is suggestive of the mission and then it includes the biggest space is the narrative and the narrative is why are we doing this. It sets the background. It helps somebody understand how their work fits in why is this of overall importance when it gets hard slogging through wherever in the military or working through on a project. Why what is the higher order bit that we're trying to do. Why does this really matter to me and then it says the mission.

Doug: [00:17:50] We need ideas for a blank and one thing and that's the higher to think what do we need ideas for not three things. One thing then we set some boundaries leadership sets the boundaries. Here's the here's the strategic and tactical. So here's a strategic

[00:18:08] We don't want ideas for these kind of things. By defining what we don't want that helps us understand what we do what and then the tactical boundaries. Time money. You know we only have this much money we have to do it this fast. I mean the reality. And then lastly we give some sum basically some stimulus of some things that we might think of to consider. And it could be existing things or others but this blue card serves to get everybody aligned on what we're doing and why we're doing it. And it gives purpose to the work and it gives purpose to our business and it creates the alignment in effect. That's what Dr. Franklin did when he moved them up to the greatness of the British Empire and that we are all Englishmen and the shared values that we all have together as opposed to we would these other things over on the other side of the ocean he got them to think of it as a greater purpose.

Tripp: [00:19:12] Ok so a couple there's a couple things I want to draw out on this one. One is just pure curiosity. Was it the blue card first or was that it just happened to be blue and then everybody started calling it the blue card. It was their intent there. I mean as far as that. Did you pick blue intentionally or was he just it.

Doug: [00:19:35] No it was intentional decision. And actually what happened. Interestingly OK I'll fess up it's my birthday.

Doug: [00:19:47] Here's what happened. One of my bright bright young people working for me. We were I was. I can I can I can remember it because I can feel the pain. You know you're having the CEO right. And we're sitting. We were in Bangor Maine and we were running an event up there with the University of Maine. And and we're sitting there and we're having a cocktail and. And she was talking to me about a project she was working on. And I said well we're gonna have to stop that project.

Doug: [00:20:19] And now this is a very open lady a very smart lady. If you could imagine this scene her legs quickly crossed her arms crossed across her chest and I said Are you OK with that and she says Yeah I'm OK with it with a bit of puckered you. And I'm like going you know you. Yeah I she's a lady. You love to play poker with you know she's out there. It's just wonderful. She's just wonderful lady. Very. She runs our education team.

Doug: [00:20:49] And and and she was just like. And finally she says well how could I have known because I explained the issue. She said How could I have known that and it was such an honest question.

Doug: [00:21:03] And I easy you know now I'm looking at myself like going the Emperor's got no clothes on. And Amber baby I'm like a numb nuts here because I realized there was no way for her to know that there was a strategic issue or a boundary on this thing because she couldn't read my mind.

Doug: [00:21:20] And he issued spent a whole lot of time or let's say it more directly she'd wasted a whole lot of time because I hadn't given clarity to the mission. She didn't understand what she knew what to do she didn't know why to do it and she didn't know the boundaries and and it was at that moment that I realized my God we've got to do something about this and this has been percolating up. We'd heard complaints from people there were issues and there were different things people talking about they were running into this problem.

Doug: [00:21:49] People would come up with a miracle idea and then they would take it to their boss and the boss said I was kidding 9:00. I'm not really interested in that. And they're like I just did a friggin miracle and you're like this to me here man. This is working for me. And so quickly we started to put it together. And interestingly we had a tendency as we do today to run experiments and we would pilot it with early adopters to get the bugs out. This thing literally within two weeks it was out in the entire network and it was literally changing weekly as we would get better wording and more precise wording. And people just grabbed it so it pulled out of a so quickly. I joke that if I hadn't put it out they would have bootlegged it out because they were so desperate to get alignment between what leadership's strategy is and what work you want me to do.

Doug: [00:22:44] And you know and it was it was that shocking to me that made me realize that we had to do something and you talk to people to do Innovation Engineering they'll say the most important thing in the entire thing is the blue card. Nothing's more important in the blue card.

Tripp: [00:22:56] And I would agree and actually that's a good segue into the narrative question that I have which is so so in the old days when I first started doing and working with with Deming's philosophy I used to do alignment in organization. So you would have the executive team would have well probably what would have been my version of of a blue card. There's a lot of things missing from my it. But in essence it was Mission Vision Values and key measurements as well as a system map of the executive team which did everything and then every then and each department then did a system map that would feed into that an alignment and things. And what I discovered in going through that process is yep I did a system map and they're all supposed to be aligned but they weren't. And and so I rethought it actually and went back through and started to build just just one aim not an aim for the departments and the you know all the nested groups that are under the executive team. And I started to find that that worked better.

Tripp: [00:24:04] But I'll tell you the one thing that really stood out in my mind and advancement when I when I went to one of your courses was the narrative piece that was the difference maker in my mind that was the one of the missing pieces too. We're working with organizations and communicating with them that there has to be this compelling underlying reason that you want to do something that there has to be this narrative as you put it. And so Doug when you put the narrative together where did that come from. And and how did you get there. That was one of the things that just it's important and I hope people listening will understand the importance of narrative.

Doug: [00:24:57] So we started to put the card together right. And we had some elements to the card. And I was working with Gojo industries that at make Purell Sure. And it's an amazing company privately held. And Joe Kanfer is the chairman and the CEO and I we were showing him this blue card we had and it talked about the objective and you know the kind of stuff that you'd normally do you know like AIM and metrics and stuff like that like we do with systems. And he takes the card and he throws it on the table and he says this isn't gonna work.

Doug: [00:25:37] People are motivated by narratives not by metrics and I just stopped and he says I built pure hell because I told people the story of how people get sick because they don't wash their hands in the situations where they can't. And that with Purell we're going to make it so people aren't going to get sick. And he says and throughout my career it's been stories that motivate people to do impossible things and and I said Wow that's. And I'm like writing letters like these want. Interestingly he said I want credit for that. So Joe I'm giving you credit right now.

Doug: [00:26:24] Because it was it was this incredible entrepreneur who's done an amazing thing building that company. One of the smartest business people I've ever met my life. And he said it's the narrative. That's the thing that matters. And then it was later than that that we found out that the military was doing the same thing. And interestingly the military you can't outsource writing the narrative the leader has to write it themself and in their words. They think it's that important and that's harder in the corporate world because people do want to write they want have somebody do it. No review. But in the military the leader has to write it. And then as it goes down the line as it gets into sub blue cards those people have to write it and how their department fits into the greater whole. If it if it's a tiered type system.

Doug: [00:27:11] But you know it is that thing that brings us together and it is the difference. And I'm not going to beat on it but you know what I'm talking about here. It's the difference between management and leadership. Leaders inspire people to do great things blue cards are a tool to help leaders turn their dreams into reality to make things happen to activate the masses. I mean it is it is invaluable. If you want to become a better manage leader manager or leader tomorrow put in blue cards and when you have to write why. It really forces you to think and you know sometimes you start to write why and the why is so I can get my bonus well and then we don't know why people are not motivated and engaged in our companies. Mm hmm mm hmm. Why could that be. I guess they're not stupid I guess if we hired stupid people they would be motivated.

Tripp: [00:28:15] You know I'm saying Oh yeah. You know it's interesting I'm sure this would maybe a whole probably newsletter on its own. But there's there's a I just did a dumbing lens which my podcasts for the Deming institute on the need of you know how you develop leaders from a Deming perspective and one of the things that that comes out of that that Dr. Deming railed against was this whole concept of many executives and managers are not familiar with the work in which they're managing you know making decisions on and you know conceptually the blue card gives you the opportunity to have to know something about the work in order to write a good narrative because if you don't it's just going to sound like mumbo jumbo and I found that and working with some clients.

Doug: [00:29:20] Yeah. Yeah.

Tripp: [00:29:21] I mean they have to really know the business if they don't know.

Doug: [00:29:23] Management by spreadsheet.

Tripp: [00:29:25] Yeah yeah.

Doug: [00:29:25] It's like look I innovate. What do want me to do. I don't know innovate. What kind of where do you want me to innovate. They go well I don't know. What do you want me do. I don't know. I'll tell you when you when I see it. So just try some stuff.

Tripp: [00:29:38] All right just make sure you hit this number because I got to get my quarterly bonus and the right. It's not very inspiring.

Doug: [00:29:45] No no no. And it is. And it can become so complicated. I mean you know where we can spend nine months writing our strategy and then we give the team three months to do something you know and then we start the process all over again. This is simple it's a blue card. We need ideas for and here's why this is important it hits the boundaries on it. That's it. Got it man maybe people want to do great things. They want to do cool stuff. You know we just got to you we got to think hard about what the mission is and then get out of the way and let them do it.

Tripp: [00:30:22] Right. So just a just a note to the people that always ask me where did the narrative thing come from and I always say Doug Hall now you know where it really came from came from Joe at Gojo.

Doug: [00:30:33] Yeah that's right. Yeah. Very good. And smarter than me.

Tripp: [00:30:39] Well you learn actually you know when you're working with clients. They teach you things as well as you teaching them. So it's always that that's how you gain knowledge and and further yourself as well as your organization.

Tripp: [00:30:53] OK. Well what's move on to our Brain Brew Whiskey Academy podcast where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whiskey distillery business. Eureka! Ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whiskey company patented technology like has never been done before. The power of mission. So how does this play in a distillery Doug.

Tripp: [00:31:31] All we've talked now about the need for the mission. The need for alignment. You're now going to where the rubber meets the road at your distillery. How does this play.

Doug: [00:31:43] Ok. So. So we start this distillery right. We get this time compression technology allows us to basically you can now make whiskey as fast as easy as you can make gin or vodka. OK. Because normally you have to wait years and we can do it quickly and make world class stuff. So you've got this technology the question is To what end what you can do with it.

Doug: [00:32:05] I mean what's the purpose of it. Ok so you got it. Why is it here and what we early on with with the brain brew company we spend a bunch of time thinking about because the first thought was oh we'll just do cheap expensive stuff we'll take expensive things and cloning and we could do that. I mean we proved that we could do that but then we were like that didn't feed our soul. It just didn't seem exciting. And being the cheap clone just didn't seem to really do much for me.

Doug: [00:32:38] I just it just was not it just I was just like whatever. And so then we started to think about the different things we could be and when you look at the craft distilling market or the craft beer business you can have a number of different missions. You can you can turn around and focus your energy on building a brand and taking it national and global and building a brand business. You could turn around and say No I'm just gonna be a really cool tasting room restaurant bar venue based business. But you've got to make a choice. And the challenge many people have is they don't make that choice. They don't set the mission of what it's going to be. And in our case this line came to us and I'm not sure who who it came from but somebody we were creating whiskies and somebody said you know this is so much fun to do this and somebody then said You know everybody deserves to have their own whiskey and I was like huh.

Doug: [00:33:45] That's kind of cool.

Doug: [00:33:48] Wouldn't it be cool if everybody could have the joy of crafting their own whiskey and you go over their house and they go here once you have a little taste with this or here I'm going to make your cocktail with my special whiskey I think you're going to like it. How cool would that be.

Doug: [00:34:04] You know that's like that idea that you have when you're doing brainstorming and somebody is what would be neat if everybody could have their own whiskey and you go yeah they'd be awesome but get real. And we'd figured out that we had figured out how to make whiskey a bottle at a time for an hour and a rapid testing and you know we've we've talked about earlier in this podcast and I'm like what we can and we can do it efficiently and so we started to play with that idea and our mission became and we changed the company name to brain brew custom whiskey. People say What do you do custom whiskey. We enable you to have your own. And as it turns out before prohibition almost every bar every restaurant every person had their own whiskey. Because that's the way it was people would blend whiskeys together and then to have their own whiskey. I mean it was a common thing to do after prohibition it became you know the big big companies owning it obviously. But the idea of custom whiskey became our purpose. And how could we do that.

Doug: [00:35:06] How could we bring together and then we chose if we look at the spelling on line and you see it you see Parentheses around the E and we may have talked about this before but it's worth bringing up again because whiskey tends to be tribal. You are a bourbon person you're a Scotch person. I mean those being the two great divides that we get into.

Doug: [00:35:31] And and of course in Scotland is no we in the US there is any. And so we decided to put the parentheses around the E to say we're agnostic on it that we love them all. We're about whiskey however you want to spell it. And to bring people together to craft their own product. And that became our purpose. And as we started to go through it and and when then we find other people want to do this and it's growing and growing and growing and and it's just a ton of fun. The look on people's faces when they make their own whiskey is just amazing. Now interestingly as we started to to do this thing we had no idea what's gonna happen because people said Oh you're making this stuff fast there's no story no legend people like the Heritage. But you know what happened is when people made their own whiskey you know this story was well I've taken this much of New World and I took this old world and I and I have some corn and I have some rye and I did this because of the all of a sudden instead of Johnny Jimmy and Jack's whiskey it's your whiskey. And that became our mission. And it's interesting because we'll talk with distilleries and they'll say OK I want you to make this thing out. Don't do that. But I want you to just clone. I said I don't do that. They said but you can. I said just because I can doesn't mean I should. And that's a key strategy thing. Just because you can doesn't mean you should and so our mission is custom whiskey and you know we raised a little bit of money and I got investors and I turned down investors who didn't get it but the investors got it.

Doug: [00:37:05] They know we're in the custom whiskey business we're building systems and tools to enable everybody to have their own whiskey because everybody deserves one. And that's a choice we've made.

Doug: [00:37:15] And to make success in any new business you got to make that choice. Now it may change it may evolve. That's fine. But you've got to be able to ask every employee what do you do here. You know what's the mission. What's the purpose and arches custom so.

Tripp: [00:37:33] So paint me a picture here Doug where you're kind of at and where you're going everyone deserves their own whiskey. I get it. That's clear in my head. How far does that go from a perspective of you know the individual and then what are the systems and that you have in place so far and the ones you need to build in order to make that a reality what you do where you are now.

Doug: [00:37:58] So we're watching you. So what you do is you come to an event and it can be held at a restaurant or compelled in a distillery bar you can indeed do it yourself kit that you can do at home and watch videos on the Internet.

Doug: [00:38:11] So what we do is we basically deconstruct the whiskey into the four great grains wheat corn Ryan barley we have people taste in a new world style. You know the U.S. style basically corn wheat corn Ryan barley then they taste them in an old world style and then they taste in a Kraft style where we've put the stuff together and then at the end having done the tasting and some food here and there in between they then start to put together their own personal whiskey to their taste they might want a little bit of old world with some new world maybe throw in a little craft for some zing and you guys we say they have their own personal whiskey like nobody else is made exactly to their taste. And I mean truly different it's all 12 products. You know sometimes people say to me they say dog Yeah but you know I'll Scotch taste the same raw bourbon tastes the same. Yeah. Now these don't all 12 products that you taste are really really different from each other. We purposely worked on that and so you really get something that's it's really pretty magical. And people just love it. They love it. I mean imagine couples doing it to celebrate their wedding new babies. I mean whatever it is Burt is like having you know whiskey has a different place in people's lives.

Tripp: [00:39:29] And so so so Doug where are you in this process. I mean if you went to to the ranch today or were to the brain whiskey today would you would you be able to pull this off do you already have the videos and all that work where you kind of in the spectrum of complete product.

Doug: [00:39:49] I guess yeah from what we've got the thing. We've got the whole process together we've done some prototypes. We're going to be doing another prototype coming up and we can't sell today until the government starts back up again and the TTB finishes our labels.

Doug: [00:40:06] So. So I mean this we can do a little irony and some of those kind of things but we can't sell anything. We have to be very careful about you know there's nothing that can be sold. We can do some small experiments and that kind of stuff and we do have a permit over in Kentucky where we're we're working with another distillery that makes a bunch of our products so that we can do the stuff there. But you know we're ready.

Doug: [00:40:30] It's just as soon as the government can you know they can do that thing we're talking about which is come together come together admission hey we need Dr. Franklin or Joe to help with this blue card get these people to come together because we're all the whole industry waiting for that because all of our labels are held up right now.

Tripp: [00:40:48] So OK well let's move to our cocktail now it's this. Is this the Dr. Franklin cocktail that seems apropos. Is this a real thing or do you guy guys come up with this drink.

Doug: [00:41:07] What do you mean. Is it a real thing. Well you know I mean is it. I don't ever remember going to a bar Doug and ordering a doctor.

Doug: [00:41:16] It's it's craft man. Oh yeah of course of course it's an original creation. OK. Now this is an original creation and I spent way too much money creating this by the way because I felt a real responsibility.

Doug: [00:41:35] So you hear these recipes every week but I'm telling you folks this one this one's cool I'm not the other that cool but this one is in particular it's kind of fun because I challenged myself to do the founding fathers not for those you don't know your history. Some of them hung out together. Some of them didn't. Most famously Franklin and John Adams were at war with each other most of the time. John Adams was a hothead up Massachusetts Franklin's trying to calm things down and as it turned out and Washington was crying and trying to play peacemaker as the leader of the whole crew and Jefferson was buddies with Franklin and while Franklin and Jefferson they liked wine in particular Madeira wine for Portugal which is a fortified wine. Adams liked hard cider and Washington was a distiller and famously made rye whiskey so I said let's put together Madeira hard cider and rye and bring them together so that the sum of the parts the total is greater than the sum of the parts.

Doug: [00:42:37] In other words can we make something really wonderful. And so that's what I did. I kept messing with it messing with it and I ended up with. Again it's in the show notes.

Doug: [00:42:46] Two ounces of Madeira wine.

Doug: [00:42:49] One ounce of hard cider.

Doug: [00:42:51] And then one ounce of our Noble Oak rye. So that's one of our products that we use. Noble Oak Rye. So two one one and.

[00:43:01] Just stirred in ice and it's just got a richness and a depth to it that is you know it's not at Manhattan because but the cider gives a lightness. The Rye gives the spiciness and then the Madeira unlike clean cabernet and that really has a backbone to it. That's that's pretty wonderful. And I did two parts wine because I was gonna say look I'm going to get Franklin lead here so that's why it's it's a Madeira. So and so that also takes the alcohol down a little bit. Not not much but it but it takes it down a little bit because you get you know three different levels of alcohol there but it's a really really refreshing drink and his eye I said in the newsletter I said as we drink this heritage cocktail give a toast using the words.

Doug: [00:43:47] I took some of the words of Ben Franklin stitching them together and as Franklin said that cannot be good living where there is no good drinking. I give you this hint as a man of the world. Let us then with glass in hand. I adore the wisdom of the ages. Let us raise our glass and drink a fine toast to the good doctor.

Tripp: [00:44:12] Very good and that be a great way to end our Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy.

Doug: [00:44:17] Thank you Tripp.

Tripp: [00:44:18] Thank you Doug

Tripp: [00:44:21] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for limited time for things a one hour abridged audio of the driving Eureka! book. A subscription to the driving Eureka! newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast track big ideas and the newsletter has other offers that are not made public. The driving Eureka! prescription for success you answer questions and will help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas and you get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate. And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend. To get these offers. Go to w w w dot Doug Hall dot com forward slash Podcast.

Tripp: [00:45:21] And don't forget to subscribe to the Driving Eureka! podcast on iTunes.

Driving Eureka! Newsletter 12

This is the twelfth episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1: Thinkers and Doers Best Work Together or Fail Spectacularly; Segment 2: Using Diversity; Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy and the Boulevard Cocktail.

Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:35] Introduction to Episode 12 - Thinkers and Doers Best Work Together or We'll All Fail Spectacularly

[00:03:41] Handoffs are Killing Ideas

[00:04:01] False Cures for Handoffs and Functional Separation of Work

[00:05:34] Big Companies vs. Small Companies in Innovation

[00:07:13] Why Universities Don't Operate Well

[00:09:10] When is Too Late to Innovate or Save a Company

[00:14:09] Myth: First to Market Loses

Much of the Research is in Doug's Previous book, Meaningful Marketing

[00:17:46] The Driving Eureka! Segment

[00:18:34] Diversity - Not a Melting Pot, but a Salad Bowl

[00:19:13] The Math of Diversity

[00:20:45] Operational Definition of Diversity

[00:27:53] Research About Diversity, Not Just Life Experience

[00:30:17] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:30:46] Diversity, Thinkers and Doers in The Whiskey Business

[00:32:47] Listen to Employees and If Not Sure -Run a Test

[00:35:13] Make Products You Aren't Proud Of

[00:39:55] The Craft Cocktail Recipe - The Boulevard Cocktail

[00:40:17] The History and Story Behind the Boulevard Cocktail

[00:42:16] The Boulevard Cocktail - Step 1

[00:42:29] Step 2

[00:42:34] Step 3

[00:42:39] Step 4

[00:42:44] Step 5

[00:42:58] Making the Flamed Orange Peel

[00:45:02] The Deckhand Rye is Coming

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas. About

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:22] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whiskey maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka ranch and author of the Driving Eureka! book.

Tripp: [00:00:35] This is the 12th episode of the Driving Eureka podcast. This episode is a discussion of Doug Hall's newsletter letter available at Doug Hall.com. You can click on the menu "newsletters" and you can sign up for his weekly newsletter. The feature article this week is thinkers and doers best work together or will all fail spectacularly. And this week's Driving Eureka! book segment is about leveraging diversity and the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy Academy is the importance of bringing together the thinkers and doers in a whiskey distillery our craft cocktail recipe is the boulevard cocktail. So Doug we've got a theme this week talking about thinkers and doers. And when I first read this piece I was thinking OK we've got the thinkers over here and then we got the doers and never the two shall meet. And maybe that's just the way that it plays out.

Doug: [00:01:46] It seems to be that mean and we can. Sadly we see this over in in the UK with Brexit in the US with Congress and all the rest of the stuff. It's like we have this desire I think to create checks and balances in a sense that if we have checks and balances and people are just battling with each other that will save us from anybody being stupid. Maybe I think Franklin had it right. We must all hang together or most assuredly will all hang separately as Ben Franklin said. And this was inspired I went for a walk.

Doug: [00:02:19] I was in Prince Edward Island over the holidays and where we have a farmhouse there and I was walking the shore of New London Bay and and it hit me that so much of organizations can be split into and for whatever reason and I'm stereotyping and so it's not exact like this but I'm going to exaggerate for effect.

Doug: [00:02:40] But there are people that think the great thoughts and the people that actually do the work you know the marketing people tend to think the big thoughts about the product and then that salespeople actually have to go you know face to face with the customers and sell it to them whether it's industrial or consumer whatever it is.

Doug: [00:02:57] There's the engineering people that do the designs of the equipment and then the production people who actually have to make it work. I was told a story but one large manufacturing company very famous one they said the problem we've got is our engineering department create stuff. They put it into the plant. They came back a month later and the plant has rebuilt it so to make it work. So what's the problem. These are all engineering is mad about it. Well I said that engineering should design it right the first time. And so so we've got this divergence between these and an idea is we. We have Henry Ford in our head that you have your task just do your job and then the next person does theirs as you hand your work to the next person.

Doug: [00:03:41] And it's these handoffs from department to department that creates at least half the failure of new ideas because you know the success rate of innovations for large companies is about 5 percent and at least half this comes from these handoffs because we just have to figure out a way to make it happen now.

Doug: [00:04:01] There's some false cures for this. That makes management feel good. They go all in all that's not a problem I've taking care of that we have the thinker team have representatives from the doer team. We have a representative on sales there well the problem is is that persons usually such a low level person they don't have the understanding or authority or the seniority to say no when something's being unrealistic and if when they say there's a problem they say you're not being a team player just buck up.

Doug: [00:04:31] It's like this buck up and this stupid you know at the second way the management says we do oh no no I I've taken care of that.

Doug: [00:04:40] I have my thinkers do a walkthrough they've walked through the plant or they've driven along with a salesperson. When do they do that. Well ten years ago when they started OK. Nothing's changed in 10 years. I mean hello. Hello. You know and sadly most thinkers think they're so intellectually superior that they get it.

Doug: [00:05:03] They already know it and they don't. The world is different.

Doug: [00:05:07] And the third way they try to do it is they say well if we just do more planning and this is the it's called Waterfall we plan the whole thing and then you just give it to the folks. The reality is is there's so much complexity in today's world and how people going to react especially to new ideas that you that just doesn't work so the solution to this thinker do or divide is really simple.

Doug: [00:05:34] Big companies are 5 percent success rate with innovations. Small companies have a 50 percent are still in business after three years. That's better. Fifty five. And part of the reason why it's the case is because at small companies the silos are not if they are there at all. They're berries. They're not very rigid. And the CEO has line of sight to everybody. And everybody is much more engaged in all of the elements. This joint ownership on the on the mission see the big coat. They're more interested in their silo than the organization at the small company. It's the organization that matters. And so that brings them together much much more. And so it's that collaboration that we need to bring. Which is what we do and I talk about in the book is how to bring teams together under a common mission. What's the mission. What's the innovation project mission the blue card and then bringing them together with software that brings them together and then giving them tools to be able to quantify and to test and experiment. So they come together as a team where everybody is sharing in everything the product people writing marketing ideas marketing ideas finding ideas for products. We are a team as opposed to a collection of individuals.

Tripp: [00:07:04] So. So Doug are you trying to recreate then with any large organization what a small organization would operate as.

Doug: [00:07:13] Yeah. Can I have my own way I just get rid of all the departments. Same thing at universities. I get rid of all the colleges.

Doug: [00:07:19] That's half the problem.

Doug: [00:07:23] Just break them down now the fact is is that and then be dotted line to the department and solid line to the business right now.

Doug: [00:07:35] We got it reversed the solid line to the department and dotted line to the business all messed up then work and so what what in essence is the process then of of doing that.

Tripp: [00:07:56] What is the what. I guess trying to visualize in my head how you're breaking this down.

Doug: [00:08:03] So what we're gonna do is this instead of having a mission that's focused on your silo product development sales marketing we're gonna have a mission that is more important than your departmental mission. How we're going to change the world of whiskey how we're gonna change the world of hotels how we're gonna change the world of mooring systems for deepwater oil rigs. What is the mission and why is that important to people and that's going to overcome the departmental. We need something bigger than ourselves and see this happens at companies when they're going out of business

Doug: [00:08:45] When they're going out of business suddenly departments disappear in the corporate mission becomes a mission. We've all been through situations where we've been in something it's a bad situation. Everybody comes together quickly Well it's the same thing here. That's what we're looking to do. It's the same thing.

Tripp: [00:09:01] But sometimes they come together quickly and it's too late right. That's right. Yeah that's right. It's just too late. It's just too late.

Tripp: [00:09:10] And why are there recognizable I don't know when you when you talk to organizations what are the characteristics of those that have you know come to see the light too late.

Doug: [00:09:24] Well there's usually a history of letting people go. They one thing I know is I say well let's run a survey to see their attitudes towards innovation they say no we don't do any surveys anymore. I go why you don't. Well they always come up ads. The CEO said stop surveying people.

Doug: [00:09:44] That's helpful. That's helpful. Mm hmm. And the problem is is what you end up with first is adverse selection. So the people that are great bolt because they have options and so the people you're left with. That's a good.

Doug: [00:10:04] Not always the case. Not always a case. There'll be some that will believe in the mission of the organization and they'll stay. So to be clear there'll be some they'll say but as a general rule you know. Point for point. It becomes pretty painful.

Tripp: [00:10:17] So. So let's just just just play this out a little bit. We've got a scenario even as we speak. You've got Sears right. They've been closing stores month over month. They're you know letting people go there. They're closing these stores.

Tripp: [00:10:34] You know it's funny it kind of reminds me of the Iacocca book Lee Iacocca. You know when he was that well first Ford and then later Chrysler. But you know you would have the what he would call the bean counters would all come to him and say look you know I know we're closing two plants but we need to close you know. And then Iacocca would interrupt and basically say well we need to close them off because they're all losing money. You know if we if we go if we go into it with that attitude you know that's right. We've just going to close everything down and I almost see this kind of playing out. So.

Tripp: [00:11:09] So when you look at something like Sears you know I mean here here's a name that's been around for ever literally. They made retail and you're looking at an organization like this that you know the layoffs have been happening I don't know what they do on surveys but wouldn't you.

Tripp: [00:11:28] What would be your advice to them what would you. You know when you look at I know you don't know the details of it but where would you where would you begin with a company like that.

Doug: [00:11:38] Well and so there's there's other elements going on with your situation in that you've got an investment bank that owns the thing and the truth of the matter is is that they're getting all their money out because they're selling off. They've sold off real estate and leased it back and they've done all kinds of games already. And so. So you don't have owner operator. You know you've got you know money changers and things in play that's happening.

Doug: [00:12:07] So what the challenge is is I don't know that there is a way to save Sears. I don't know that anybody cares about saving Sears except for maybe the employers employees and those communities that do it because you don't have somebody up there who have what Deming would talk about is constancy a purpose a long term survival of the organization.

Doug: [00:12:27] The actions taken. Selling off their best brands selling off the real estate you know what needed to happen was 10 or 15 years ago they needed to start three or four experiments to reinvent them.

Doug: [00:12:40] I mean this is the company that was the Amazon of the world. They the original Amazon. Remember the big Christmas gift book. If it wasn't in the Sears catalog you didn't need it. This is the original Amazon for crying out loud.

Doug: [00:12:55] They were it now. Is it hard to change. Yes it's hard to change. Get over it. That's why you're the big boss. No I'm nuts. That's your job. And so they need to see the future they need to see the things that are going but now they're so far behind.

Doug: [00:13:10] I just don't know that it's you know you had to confront the reality what does this thing become in its new life and why does it need to exist.

Doug: [00:13:27] You've got to know when to hold em know when to fold them. And I I I I hate to be negative but you know I don't know enough.

Doug: [00:13:35] I mean I tangentially was involved in some conversations with people about craftsmen and different things. And and I can't get into specifics but who's leading.

Doug: [00:13:46] Where are we going. That's the key. Where are we going. What's your vision for where this is gonna be.

Tripp: [00:13:52] Okay so so this goes to a common theme we've talked about in previous episodes which is you know the time to innovate is now not once somebody is already disrupted you yeah.

Doug: [00:14:06] Now you don't have any energy resources.

Tripp: [00:14:09] Well then it also feeds into some of the data that you've talked about before too that you know you've got to be the first to market you know where where it's in it is. There is a prevailing thinking that exists in the marketplace about the fact that you don't want to be the first to market.

Doug: [00:14:27] Right. Right. And those people that say that I mean just I got a book it's called Jumpstart Your Marketing brain or meaningful marketing in hardcover and I cite 100 years of research on this and they'll say well I saw this thing that happened I saw this thing that happened. Now the data says that to the Pioneer goes the reward and do pioneers fail yes to follow it fail. Yes. But when you look at it all. If you want to play the odds the odds are you're going to make more money if you're the pioneer and not the follower. OK by a lot by a factor of two to three to five. Right. OK. That's that's that's the truth. Now you say well now that's the case I know of a case I guess. Yeah I know and I know somebody that bought a lottery ticket by standing on one foot and patting on the head but that doesn't make it a system. You know it's ridiculous random events happen. The question is is how do you make more money. You got to pioneer. And if you're not unique you better be cheap. And so you've got to pioneer. And by the time you know you have to do. I mean I've been at companies where they say well we've tried everything else. We fired all the people we've changed everything we've cost Scott. I guess we're going to have to innovate. Well for crying out loud. That's not the attitude. You know guess what. It's too late.

Doug: [00:15:38] It's probably too late now with superhuman effort you can do it if you can buy yourself some time you can do it but you're gonna have to double down and triple down and the fact is there will still be people who still believe in the organization. It amazes me they'll still be people who care and they can be activated.

Doug: [00:15:57] You ask for volunteers you put together a team and our case will oftentimes do you reconvening so we accelerate even faster than with innovation and sharing because they just need to get. They have to show they can win quickly. They've got to show they can win. Quickly.

Tripp: [00:16:12] Yeah. So you basically you know you look at Sears they're out of time and money right.

Tripp: [00:16:18] It's kind of where we're I guess they would place. OK. All right.

Doug: [00:16:23] Game's over. Game's over.

Tripp: [00:16:24] Yeah that's a dead end and yet it's unfortunate but it can't be a good lesson to other organizations too. But we seem to be learning the same lesson over and over and over again which is the problem that we're trying to mitigate.

Doug: [00:16:41] Yeah. And just so we're clear Tripp I've made the mistake over 35 years of having Eureka! Ranch I've made mistake where I got fat dumb and happy and we stayed with where we were and we didn't reinvented our Eureka inventing is on it's like eighth or ninth version now. But I had times when we were making a lot of money. Business was great. And I just said we're good we're good. And I didn't reinvest in it right now. This year we made the biggest investment in history the company biggest investment history of the company and reinventing our education our software our methods and our tools. Biggest ever. And so it's a bright. It's the best of times right now. It feels good having that when you don't have it that's really stinks.

Tripp: [00:17:27] And as you said the data plays it out that you need to be the pioneer that you need to be the one leading this.

Doug: [00:17:35] Ok. That's a perfect that's a perfect segue way to our book excerpt

Tripp: [00:17:46] It's time now for the driving Eureka book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall.

Tripp: [00:18:02] Leveraging diversity. And how does this fit in then with this whole thinkers and doers concept.

Doug: [00:18:09] Well big picture what we're talking about is diversity and collaboration and we end you know when we say diversity we think it's like standing in a circle and singing We Are The World great song but not the answer.

Doug: [00:18:24] It's about constructive dialogue debate where people from different views come together to create something great.

Doug: [00:18:34] It's what created. I mean the US was created by a whole bunch of immigrants. My mother's being a first generation immigrant a whole bunch of immigrants came to this country from different beliefs and different structures and different views and together they created this new thing this new thing in Philadelphia. And it was a bunch of different people. It wasn't a monoculture. It was a diverse culture. People said it's not really a melting pot. It's really more like a salad bowl melting pot means that go in and they all become the same a salad bowl you still have the onions radishes cucumbers you know they retain their individuality but together they create something wonderful in this in this wonderful salad.

Doug: [00:19:13] So it's about leveraging diversity and the numbers just connecting to what we just talked about and what I write in the newsletter here is I took an excerpt from the driving Eureka book it literally it's not diversity is not additive it's not multiplicative. Two times two. It's exponential and literally the impact of diversity is exponential. Like I give the example you know if you have stimulus mining is to add diversity is one to race to the one powers to if you double the stimulus to a fore and diversity stays one you not got a for but if you take the form of stimulus mining and take diversity to a six you get over four thousand ideas and that's the kind of impact we're talking about. That's the impact we're talking about when we bring together people but it takes patience and courage to put up with. It's not for wimps. It means people that disagree with you.

Doug: [00:20:18] You know my problem at the Eureka! Ranch is I had all these independent thinkers who think differently and they keep doing it and sometimes I say to them I say you know in the old days this was a lot nicer.

Doug: [00:20:28] Everybody just did what I said I smile when I say it. But the fact of the matter is is you know was it Drucker or somebody said we hire all these bright people and then we encourage them to not think anymore. I mean what was going on. I mean it's crazy. I may have that wrong but you get the idea.

Tripp: [00:20:45] Right. So. So give give me your operational definition of what diversity looks like.

Tripp: [00:20:54] What what does that mean. I mean I mean community you know. Politically it means something you know. What does it mean in the innovation world.

Doug: [00:21:02] Well it's interesting because we've been in a debate with this because I my it means yes it means departmental differences. You went to an engineering school you went to a business school you went to a finance school. Okay got it. Whatever it means knowledge basis difference it's silos of departments that are different. And yes it's age and sex and race. Yes I remember sitting with a company in Mexico. All men oh macho men in the room and they sold products. This was like This is I happen to be consumer products it was industrial companies working with and a consumer products at the same time in Monterrey Mexico. And and and I walked in and I said Who do you sell your products to.

Doug: [00:21:43] I said they said all women. I said all women are all women. I said Man you guys must be really good. So what I mean is I'd like to get some advice for you. They said well what do you mean. I said all of you guys understand women so good you don't need to have a woman in leadership you know everything about how women work.

Doug: [00:22:04] Can you teach me a little.

Doug: [00:22:09] They didn't. They laughed but politely they got the point. You know whatever. Get over it.

Doug: [00:22:18] The fact of the matter is is that there are all these others but the one that I think is the most powerful and and people at my office that they disagree with me on this just because they think in particular that the most actionable one that's the difference is getting the thinkers and doers to work together that that's the thing and that this there's some truth to that for the short term winds is to get these people to not just put up with each other but to truly be a team where you're willing to sacrifice for your side sales is willing to sacrifice for marketing or marketing is willing to sacrifice for sales that their job becomes harder to make the other person better but for the whole to win.

Doug: [00:22:58] I think that long term the bigger difference is cultural differences from different countries in my life. What I found is when I'm sitting and working in Asia or working in Europe or wherever it might be South America. The cultural differences which is not just age sex and race but it's a whole world view it's different. I mean just looks at the world in a whole different way. To me that gives me more richness than anything else. When they have a complete mindset that's different and that comes from these different different countries which is what created America in its fundamental it's the driver but the immigrant program in Canada. It's these different cultures coming together that just has a has a richness to it it may not be short term but long term I think that's what really gross and how did you conclude that.

Tripp: [00:23:58] How did you get there. What what what life experiences what what what what what has led you to say that it's cultural diversity that's the most important one to you know the long term.

Doug: [00:24:14] I came from my dad it really came from my dad.

Doug: [00:24:18] My dad had worked with Deming and then he did the licensing of carbon paper technology to Asia Europe South America and I spent a lot of time talking to my dad. And then he he took us in fact to remember going to Yugoslavia way way back when it was Yugoslavia still and spending time with the folks that he'd worked with there and he would just teach me about how much he learned from these different ways you know being in Mexico with the workers and my head was fiercely conservative and but at the same time he could just see the people and what he learned from the people and it's amazing when it came to work. He was incredibly liberal. I mean he was the same guy politically conservative. But you did think the way he would talk about the workers and how much he could learn from these people that he was a total liberal. It just struck me. And then you know he taught me how to you know when you're at these places he says when you land in Europe pieces the first thing you do is you you fly overnight. He says get out and start walking the streets and stop into the local coffeehouse or pub or whatever the time is and just start talking to people and start to feel what people are saying and doing. And and I've done the same thing when I flew to Korea. I set up we had a partner there a licensed partner for the Eureka ranch there and he set up his daughter who's in college to take me on a tour and around and we stopped and I met with her friends and I got to get a sense in and it just it just gave me a world view that was different that helped me when I led the session that I was leading over there.

Doug: [00:26:08] And I do the same thing other places. It's like you've got to come in and don't put your view on it but come in and learn from the people how they're looking at the world their values their trade offs what's worth things. Money to them what's not worth money to them. What are their dreams their aspirations.

Doug: [00:26:28] And it just yeah the challenge we got is what is it like 30 or 40 percent of Americans have a passport. So most have never been out of the country. Right. And so you know again it's what we've talked as Deming would say How could they know the importance of international if you've never been there. All right. If you've never been there I'm not going to throw stones. I'm not. And if you've traveled you've seen. I remember sitting in Paris once and my wife and I and we were in a cafe and in Paris and Paris is Paris and and this you know what we would we'd be called an ugly American a Texan with a big hat comes in and I'm not throwing Texas under the bus but he was and and he gave a lecture on how they do it in America.

Doug: [00:27:13] And you could just sense the stupidity of this. It was like dude. And are you getting anything from this. You learn if you should have stayed in frickin Texas. If you want to be Texas be in Texas. He we're having this elegant food that is spectacular in this incredible romantic place. And you're mad because you didn't get your steak big enough. I mean dude. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Let me tell you. You ordered the wrong freaking thing. So so sorry. I just.

Tripp: [00:27:44] Yeah thinking that it just gives me this nothing that gets you're not learning you're in essence just imposing. That's all right. Yeah.

Tripp: [00:27:53] So in this book segment you put in the math and you put in the meaningful uniqueness equals the stimulus to the power of diversity. That's right. With the denominator being you know driving our fear which we've touched on before too but that's the thing. You said you say it's experientially. And yet I know you it's kind of a researcher. Is there any research that's been done on an association with the diversity or is it all just your life. Experience.

Doug: [00:28:24] No there is. There's quite a bit so. So one of the things we measured was we had all these teams we had thousands of teams that came through the ranch and we measured the teams at the moment of creation.

Doug: [00:28:36] Thank you for bringing this up because this is actually based on fact and I skipped right over it because I'm just well I just skipped because you have life experiences. So what happened is Dr. Chris Stormann and I we measured teams in the act of creation we asked him all kinds of questions we asked him about stimulus and we asked him about fear and we asked him about the diversity of the group and different things and literally stimulus diversity loaded in exponential when it came to explaining the number of meaningfully unique ideas but invented by the teams. And we did it like three different ways. We did it longitudinally vertically or horizontally and we track people over time and there's a whole multiple collection of studies that we did on it. And so it truly is exponential. That's not just me saying it. It truly is. Now that diversity is all of the diversities I will my team says it's the silo diversities that the biggest blockage. They're right on that to me long term.

Doug: [00:29:32] The biggest bang is when you get these cultural diversities. That's the real value.

Doug: [00:29:38] Okay. But it's a fact it's the fact. And that's the potential stimulus diversity is your potential. Divided by the level of fear we asked the question for whatever reason I didn't say all ideas that came to mind. And when that question went up the number of ideas went down they literally held back from talking it.

Doug: [00:30:01] We created less ideas. All right. We literally track the sessions average about look at them over time. And you have less ideas from a group that was like that. I mean it's a factual point. I mean it's just it's reality and it's confirmed by other research.

Tripp: [00:30:17] This is the Brain Brew Whiskey Academy podcasts where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whiskey distillery business Eureka! Ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft Whiskey Company with Patented technology like that's never been done before

Tripp: [00:30:41] Ok. Let's move to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy.

Tripp: [00:30:46] So you know we've talked before Doug about this the concept of thinkers and doers and and you know leveraging diversity. How does this play out in a whiskey distillery. What's going on with that.

Doug: [00:31:01] Ok. So you know I've talked about. Thinkers and doers and the need for collaboration so that we don't become like the McCoys and the Hatfields. You know and we got to come together. The problem is is that right. You know creating a distillery takes money and so oftentimes we get investors or different people involved in it. And they've been successful in the business world and the way they know how to do things is to set up organizational charts and departments and allocate who does what things. I mean that's just what they know. That's what they know. And so you know at as the company gets going for efficiency purposes. No you just do your job you do your job and somehow magically all the connections work together. Now that's when it's run by a corporate person when it's run by a true entrepreneur somebody who started up companies many of them like I started my first one at age 12 I started doing things I'd been doing it forever. You don't tend to have that. You tend to have more of a collaborative community and while everybody will have maybe a job they do they all have a blend of knowledge about everything else and in fact what I found it's like if you if you sort of magically showed up at the distillery which is in the former garage of the Eureka! Ranch just just west of the ranch and there was a meeting going on here you would hear somebody talking about say we're working on a new idea for a new product. Somebody might be talking about packaging and other won't be talking about supply chain. Can we get the wood then somebody else might be talking about the economics is. So what to do. Another person may maybe turning around and say OK so if I was to pitch this to a bar here's what I would say.

Doug: [00:32:47] And you would hear everybody doing it and the same person that talked marketing would suddenly be talking about product. OK. And you'd have a hard time figuring out who did what. You might figure it out but it would be pretty hard to figure out who's doing what. Because everybody's involved in all the decisions and that's not to say that we debate to compromise but because at the end of the day as a leader it's my job to make the final decision and they respect that. But they've all been heard and we've all debated it. And most important of all when somebody feels really strongly about it I never make the call. We just run a test we just run a test. I mean we had a debate recently on on some of our products on the next generation of products and finally said Screw it let's just run the test. We ran the test and found out one of them yes we should change it. The other one no it wasn't a good idea. I just ran a quantum test read that night had the data and and so even when you're wrong the facts are there and so everybody feels like I've got a voice in this. I've got a voice in this. And so when you're building your distillery you've got a setup from the beginning to get people to understand. I know you've got somebody who's just running the stills fine but they gotta know how to sell the stuff to the people that are out front who are selling. And in your tasting room have got to understand how the products actually made and they've got to understand the math and the consequences associated with different decisions. Russ you're only going to use a part of their brain if you want to get them fully engaged they've got to know more. So you got to help them understand so.

Tripp: [00:34:24] So is it you suits you you know you said as a CEO you make the decision.

Tripp: [00:34:35] But people don't feel like they're being stepped on from from a standpoint of coming up with an idea or something like that because you've built in to the system saying OK if we you know I don't know what what the determining factors are maybe somebody feels strongly even though everybody else disagrees with them then your action that is to say well what's wrong with test.

Doug: [00:35:02] Yeah. Most of the time. OK. Most the time when it doesn't. Now there are exceptions. OK. There are exceptions. Legality issues. All right.

Doug: [00:35:13] Regulatory issues where there's financial or legal exposure I'm sorry. That's not negotiable. Okay. Those are those are facts. We never have ethical issues because that's just not the type of team in some organizations that might be ethical issues. But we just don't have that because that's not the way we are. But there are certain times when there's decisions where the leader has to make it. And even when those consequences is like we had a product where you know when it's mission focused you know we had a product that was OK it was OK. It was OK. It was good. Some of our partners wanted to do it. It was OK. And I turned around and I looked at the test data and it was close. It was OK and I finally said to the team I said anybody proud of this product.No no no it's just it's OK. I said Screw it let's not do it let's blow it up. And so we blew it up and I said Make something that you're proud of. I know I saw crappy product. I said That's my new standard.

Doug: [00:36:15] Don't sell crappy product and of course everybody laughs.

Tripp: [00:36:21] That's a low bar there, Doug.

Doug: [00:36:21] That's kind of a cool concept only got to do stuff you're proud of.

Doug: [00:36:25] We're not going to sell crap. Yeah it's a good concept. Now the problem is it's in the spirits business. There's many people selling the number one the craft whisky association do a survey of bartenders to say what's your advice to to craft spirits things and the number one thing they said was you're going to make better quality products. And because aging takes so long they sell products too soon and they just ruin their reputation and they just the products are just not very good. Now that's why our time compression is helpful to them because they can sell time compression products. They can build a nice business there. And in addition to not in place of our products can be like their you know their volume products that specialty products allow people to make their own custom whisky while their products you know classically age can be like their single malts as in their you know their premium expression. And I can buy them the time that enables them to be able to wait the appropriate time to make the product actually wonderful.

Tripp: [00:37:30] So Doug let me let me just a forum for people like me that I don't consider myself necessarily a you know a complete novice but at the same time when you say single malt for somebody listening that may be new to the you know to some of the language maybe they drink whiskey But you know if they say single malt what does that mean.

Doug: [00:37:50] So that would be a product that's made generally. So this is legal definition in Scotland a single malt is one distillery one green generally barley OK. OK. And now in the U.S. there is there's a work going on by the Kraft folks which I encourage which is to get single malt an official category.

Doug: [00:38:14] Right now it's fanciful marketing words when you say single malt barley whiskey barley whiskey is a category of product. Single malt is sort of marketing puffery because it's not regulated yet and creating that standard here so that we can do single malt just like they do in Scotland and in other places you can do it now. It's just not an official category.

Tripp: [00:38:38] Ok. OK. So it's a difference than the way Scotland does it.

Doug: [00:38:42] Yeah. And I'll be I'll be honest with you while while I love Scotch whisky I love final product. Let me count in court no question when I went to the North Pole you know and the North Pole where you drink your drink. Highland Park 18. OK. My favorite classic whisky in the world by five. And I'm a zealot for it. That said if you want creative and amazing new tastes it is much easier to make them. If you're a whiskey not a bourbon which has which has rules with it. Not a rye not a weed. Not a corn not a barley but your whiskey as in you have a mixture of those just like Bordeaux wine is a mixture of three grapes or maritime from California. Some of the most expensive wines in the world are blends of different grapes. So too I think what you're going to see long term on whiskey is this said it's going to be these different grains put together in unique ways and different whiskeys that are going to be what the great whiskeys are gonna be in long term long long term. There'll always be a place for the single things but you can just do more amazing things when you start to use different ingredients.

Tripp: [00:39:55] Okay. Very good. Well let's move to our craft cocktail recipe. The Boulevard cocktail. Now how does.

Tripp: [00:40:04] Yeah I'm always curious to know how you come up with these cocktails to fit in with the theme of the episode that we're doing. So how did the bowl of cocktail fit into all the things we're talking about.

Doug: [00:40:17] Well this was interesting because I was texting last night before we recorded. I was looking through Dale the graphs classic book The Craft of the Cocktail and I and Dale de Graaf was Windows of the World New York. I had the blessings to spend an entire day with him on a project and we spent the morning tasting a collection of different whiskies that we had and messing with some things and then he took us on a tour of speakeasies in different places in New York and did his flaming orange peel which I'll talk about in a minute.

Doug: [00:40:49] And and he's a legend. He's he's a legend in the business. And as wonderful a person as you hope he would be. I've had an opportunity to meet many celebrities we won't talk about the bad ones but there are some like Charles Schulz of peanuts and Jim Henson of the Muppets and Dale de Graaf who are just genuinely they're kind of awesome people that you'd love to just hang out with forget the fact that they're famous. They're just good people. And Dale is definitely one of those. And he cites this cocktail coming from a summer fonder of than in the New York Sun of 1935. So I think it was an article that he found that he cited and and it just struck me as something different.

Doug: [00:41:31] It was a little different. And I noticed that I could see the DNA in this and that this cocktail which I'd never had before I just made it literally last night. It has hints of an old fashioned cause of some orange that comes from Grand menu and hints of a Manhattan from vermouth.

Doug: [00:41:50] So so that's pretty weird. Okay. I mean I'm taking two of the classic cocktails the old fashion in Manhattan and kind of doing like a jazz riff on these things here. You know putting them together and I thought jeez I wonder. It just struck me as what the hell is this. I never heard of this thing from nineteen thirty five. And and I made it and I went Damn it's quite a it's quite a cocktail.

Doug: [00:42:16] So the way it works is this and again in the show notes we've got the details two ounces of rye whiskey. I use our own Rye whiskey but you know get a good craft rye whiskey.

Doug: [00:42:29] Half ounce a gram and anyway which is an orange liqueur.

Doug: [00:42:34] Half ounce of dry vermouth which I tend to use Dolin just because I like Dolin.

Doug: [00:42:39] And then. And you stir it with ice and strain into a chilled glass.

Doug: [00:42:44] And then here's the Dale Graff twist on it which is you put a flamed orange peel. Now you can you can go on the internet and just search for it you can see some videos of it being done and you can learn how to do it. But I'll just explain it quickly.

Doug: [00:42:58] What you do is you take the orange and you cut just a sliver of the peel off. I'm usually in a bit of an oblong oval shape. Then you hold it about four inches above the glass from the sides the short parts to it. So if it's an oval you're going to hold the sides do it with the skin side towards the drink make the skin towards the drink then you light a lighter match torch whatever I like to use like a barbecue torch so keep our fingers away from it and get the fire going first and then you sort of squeeze the peel. And what happens is the oil shoot out and you get this flame and just a real quick flame and then you drop the peel into the glass. And so what it does is it gives it sort of there's a caramelization that happens in the flame and a little tiny bit of smoke and it just puts a unique orange zest. If you would in the drink and it's quite nice quite nice actually.

Tripp: [00:44:04] Very good. So how does this fit into what we talked about.

Doug: [00:44:10] Well it's the same thing. It's the bringing together of the thinkers and the doers. In this case here. I didn't see that did you.

Tripp: [00:44:22] Okay. I knew it is in there somewhere I just had it I had a reaction and the Manhattan and it's bringing them together in this taste which is not an old fashion and it's not a Manhattan. It's like if if a Manhattan and an old fashion got together this is what they would give birth to in bizarre way.

Tripp: [00:44:43] AlRight. And what is your Rye whisky again.

Doug: [00:44:49] Well that we've got. Yeah we're about to introduce one which is called Deckhand the working man try and it's made with five Woods so it's a big brass.

Doug: [00:45:02] So it's again the story is that on the riverboats there were the deckhands and these were the ones that would work the the polls to help the boats when they were floating down where they were keel boats or flat boats. And these were the working men and and they would like to have that hardier drink when they had one day they wanted a full impact similar to the bar staff bar staff. Oftentimes the working men there they like the rise which tend to be a little higher and alcohol a little bit more spice a little bit more robustness. And so what we did here was we took the with with deckhand the working man's rye. What we've done is we've taken the rye and ninety five percent rye and then we finished it with five words we used American oak young American oak we used two hundred year oak like we used and kill boat and paddle wheel we used European Sherry oak and then we added some maple and some Apple wood and so we take the five Woods.

Doug: [00:46:08] And interestingly on the back of the package we talk about Nashville 95 percent rye but we also talk about wood Bill and talk about show the percentages of the five Woods that we're using in the finishing process and the net result is you get the gist.

Doug: [00:46:25] I mean the first thing somebody says when they taste it they go Oh my God there's a lot going on there and it's just got a lot of complexity and robustness that kind of taste you would get from a much older bigger whiskey that was maybe bottled at even a higher proof at a barrel proof much bigger taste.

Doug: [00:46:46] And so it makes spectacular whiskey forward cocktails and in amongst the you know Rye is whiskey as IPA is to be here you know it's that more intense and you either love it or you don't. But in our case here we've taken it way up over the top there's other rides that you can get out there.

Doug: [00:47:09] I just happens to have much more complexity and much more and it just celebrates the working man who made the boats go before there were motors and paddle wheels there were these guys with polls helping push the boat off the shore when it got caught up in and making it go OK.

Tripp: [00:47:26] And is did you say Deckhand is available some places yet. Or is is in the process. Well we're we're very close.

Doug: [00:47:33] So sometimes it'll be available at the distillery and and then we'll decide where to go. Our products are really made as demonstrations because we were partnering with distilleries around the world who we we use these as inspiration to show them how to create their own business their own brands. So these are really sort of if you were prototypes to show them you know as we're doing. But our business is helping other whiskey makers or wannabe whiskey makers make more money.

Tripp: [00:48:04] Yeah that makes sense.

Doug: [00:48:06] And we also do it ourselves. Yeah. Because otherwise you shouldn't listen to me helping you.

Doug: [00:48:13] You better come up with your own damn it.

Tripp: [00:48:16] So so the Deckhand rule with the price range will be that thirty five dollar price that you're five and up at thirty nine rise more.

Doug: [00:48:26] So you've got to try to stay at thirty five but I might be thirty seven or thirty nine. I've got to. Again we're working the math to see if we get some efficiencies but it's at it's at a higher percent alcohol usually 46 48 percent alcohol instead of 40 or 45. So that costs us more money in tax than the rest of that stuff. So I'd like to keep it at 35. I'd like the line to stay at thirty five but I got to look at the total math on it. It's not going over 40 I can tell you that the only is is do we have to push it up a little bit more to make the math work.

Tripp: [00:49:04] Okay. All right. Very good. Another interesting episode. And you know next time we didn't bring our time to do it this time but we do need to get an update on your distillery. So we'll do that when we kick off the brain brew whiskey Academy the next episode.

Doug: [00:49:26] Well I'd be perfect because that should be just before the opening of the distillery. So we're very very close and I think the next step so we'll be airing just before the distillery opening.

Tripp: [00:49:40] Very good. All right. Thank you. The expansion of the distillery. Yeah. Okay.

Tripp: [00:50:01] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for limited time for things. A one hour abridged audio of the driving Eureka book. A subscription to the driving Eureka newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast. Track big ideas. And the newsletter. Has other offers that are not a public. The driving Eureka prescription for success you answer questions and will help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas. And you get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate. And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend. To get these offers. Go to w w w. Dot Doug Hall.com forward slash

Tripp: [00:50:58] Podcast. And don't forget to subscribe. To the.

Driving Eureka! Newsletter #11

This is the eleventh episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast. Segment 1 and 2: Creating Ideas - Live Demo Segment 3: Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy and the Craft Cocktail - the Cranberry Mule. Subscribe to learn how to Find Filter and Fast Track Big Ideas.

[00:00:34] Introduction to the 11th Episode of the Driving Eureka! Podcast - Featuring How to Create New Ideas

[00:01:29] Dr. Van Gundy Research on Using Stimulus

[00:02:39] Using Stimulus You Get 5X or 500% More High Quality Ideas than Brainstorming

[00:03:19] Caffeine Does Increase Creativity - Cocktails (No Research)

[00:03:55] How to Use Stimulus

Stimulus Mining

[00:06:38] Soylent Green -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

[00:12:31] Alex Osborne Research

[00:14:39] Technology has Made Using Stimulus Easier

[00:16:04] Driving Eureka! Book Segment

[00:17:03] Creating an Idea is Only 10% - the 90% is in Development

[00:21:03] Google and Allocating Time to New Ideas

[00:22:14] Allocating Time is a Stunt Requires and Education on a Method

[00:22:53] The Perfect Innovation Organization

[00:24:33] Leadership

[00:25:41] Too Busy to Innovate

[00:28:45] 15% in Your Company are Early Adopters

[00:30:48] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:31:07] How Whisk(e)ys are Created

[00:32:10] Whiskey Flavor is from Wood

[00:32:27] Brewer does Magic for Beer - The Whiskey Maker is the Magician for Whiskey

[00:32:48] The Story Matters

[00:37:08] The Story of Lapu Lapu

[00:39:27] The "Story" of Brain Brew Whisk(e)y

[00:41:34] Riverboat Wood

[00:46:04] The Story of Wood in Whiskey

[00:48:23] Sometimes the Story is First, Sometime the Whisk(e)y

[00:53:00] The Craft Cocktail Recipe - Cranberry Mule

[00:54:33] The Cranberry Mule Recipe Step 1

[00:54:36] Step 2

[00:54:54] Step 3

[00:54:57] Step 4

[00:55:00] Step 5

[00:56:21] This Episode is a Requirement for Spirits Makers

Tripp: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Driving Eureka! podcast where we share ideas and advice for helping you find filter and fast track big ideas

Tripp: [00:00:14] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt advisor to global organizations on the Deming philosophy and host of the Deming Institute podcast.

Doug: [00:00:22] And I'm Doug Hall inventor speaker teacher and whiskey maker. I'm also the founder of the Eureka ranch and author of the Driving Eureka! book.

Tripp: [00:00:34] This is the 11th episode of the Driving Eureka! podcast. This episode is discussion of Doug Hall's newsletter available at Doug Hall dot com and click under the menu newsletters in these segments. We're going to be talking about how to create new ideas in each of the segments. So this is going to be the theme for this entire show. And so Doug with that let's begin. We kind of we're talking about what we wanted to do in this episode and we used stimulus which we'll talk about here and the stimulus response system. What is it. And you know more importantly how is it different than the way people currently go about trying to come up with and create new ideas.

Doug: [00:01:26] Happy new year Tripp.

Tripp: [00:01:27] Happy New Year.

Doug: [00:01:29] Yeah. So as we start the new year I thought what what better than to do ideas. And we were texting back and forth talking about different themes and different things that we were going to do and suddenly came to me I said What if we just do it live here. And so the classic method of creating ideas called brainstorming. It's usually an event where a group of people get in a room and somebody says we need ideas and then they suck the ideas out of their head. And I really call it brain draining because it's just a matter of sucking stuff from our head. What we've learned over the years through lots of experiments with Dr. Van Gundy and others is an approach that we call stimulus response where we use stimulus to spark ideas. The basic premises ideas of feats of association and if we have a piece of stimulus which can be very simple or random is we're going to do here or they can be more sophisticated whether it's patent mining wisdom mining insight mining market mining future mining tax are in this like six different types of mining which we'll get into in time that can really turbo charge your ability to create ideas.

Doug: [00:02:39] So you know when we say you know our research has shown there is a system where you can create not just 5 percent more 10 percent more but being Gandhi's research said 5 x or 500 percent more high quality ideas based on a paper that we did together. And so I am doing this for this release of the newsletter and the podcast I challenge you to give me three pieces of unrelated stimulus to create a feature article for this week's newsletter.

Tripp: [00:03:10] And the three things you gave me were dogs golf and stock market. Wow so awesome so awesome.

Doug: [00:03:19] I mean just think about what what what what incredible stimulus that is to create. So that I did the obvious thing. I went out and I made it up. Phillips cranberry you about later because I said Well I think that there's no data on this trip. There is data on caffeine caffeine does increase your creativity. There's no data on cocktails ability but I'm just gonna go with it OK. We just don't need to research it and it feels like it is.

Doug: [00:03:55] So the first thing you do with the stimulus is you expand it. Now if you have a team you have the team each give your thoughts.

Doug: [00:04:01] If you're doing it individually you write them down what comes to mind when you think of. So when you said wrote text to me dogs I wrote down loyal fun fury PAC best friend trusted can't be nasty no kids shall no kill shelters because my wife volunteers at one of the no kill shelters. OK. And on golf this is what I typed I typed my thoughts were fun difficult par overpower under par. Tiger Woods. I'm sorry. I really love Tiger. I mean I know he messed up but at least he's fighting back and you he hasn't given up tonight.

Doug: [00:04:43] You got to love that. And then lastly on stock market this was right at the time of the crazy stock market. You know a scary roller coaster ups downs. Pressure on CEOs pressure on those close to retirement. OK so so now what I've done is I've taken my mind and I've expanded it I've expanded it into different directions and as my friend chick Thompson says a balloon expanded never goes back to the same shape. And it's the same thing with my mind I've now got my mind thinking about more stuff than this. Connections being made then I did the obvious thing that one would do at this point I took another sip of my cranberry meal.

Tripp: [00:05:26] Is this the requirement. Are we going to have to have spirits associated with great creativity.

Doug: [00:05:32] Hey hey. Holiday season.

Doug: [00:05:35] So I started and I started reading the list over and over again allowing my brain to make connections. So you say you just started letting it saturate in the head. It's like you're feeding your mental food processor. And so then I came up with some ideas. And the first one was Par off of Par from golf. It made me think of the need to apply benchmarking to innovation speed to market companies who compare their projects people and processes versus world class and it could be a system for determining where the blockages are. And so one of the things we could do in the article on the newsletter is we could give people examples of Here's the numbers like we turned around and we said you're meaningful unique this needs to be five six or seven. Well we could do that with more things because we've got a whole lot of data on it so that they could self measure themselves. Yeah. And that's just came from from that. All right. OK. Then the next idea was pressure on those close to retirement and no kill shelters.

Tripp: [00:06:38] I don't know but that he said it's almost like so. Remember the movie Soylent Green. Remember that thing. Oh my gosh. OK well never mind it. It combines the two though.

Doug: [00:06:50] It's made me think of a crazy idea. What if big companies the week before people retire or leave for a company they go to a no kill idea shelter. OK. So because you got all this wisdom that's about to walk out the door and but people you know then I want to say anything. So they're going to go to the No Kill idea shelter and with nothing to lose they helped create ideas for what the company can do with its processes its products or services. Now think about that and think about if we were to go out and we could disguise their voices and go interview people who are quitting jobs and say can you with your identity disguised what things which I think we're going to be blown away blown away by the things that people know but that you know passive aggressive whatever they're not willing to talk about them.

Tripp: [00:07:44] They when necessary necessarily just have to be people close to retire.

Doug: [00:07:50] We should just have a.

Tripp: [00:07:52] I just left the company I can tell you 50 reasons. I think they call it what's the place glass door that rates companies you know where people go out put anonymous comments about the companies they worked for and some of them are very nice and some of them are really ugly. So he'd something like that. Taking that a step further. OK. Go ahead.

Doug: [00:08:15] So and then my last one was roller coaster in Tiger Woods. OK so there's a combination. It's made me think you have companies going back to the notes from previous brainstorming sessions and looking at the ideas generated with some fresh insight. Could be that some of those that were maybe not good ideas that were down and now have a good potential to make a comeback.

Doug: [00:08:42] And what's interesting about this is is that after I type that in a day later I was doing a search of my computer and up came a file of a thing we had done with our partner in Scotland a session we had done in Rhode Island with them. And I pulled up the deck of stuff and I started reading through it and I realized Oh my God there's a wicked cool idea in here that we could tap into that I had not just totally forgotten about. Didn't realize at the time when we were putting it in it didn't make sense but today it offers a cool opportunity. And so. So I'm going to start to poke at it and see it see if we can do it. And it involved a different way of making the whiskey which I can't really talk about but a whole different approach to making whiskey to create a whole new type of taste. And at the time it was no good. But now that I look at it I go Jeez something cool in there.

Tripp: [00:09:44] Mm hmm interesting. You know there's one thing that I want to hit upon because this this subject to me is is another of those things that was the first thing when it when when I when I first met you and the Eureka! Ranch was this concept of renewing yourself your company your team you know all of that that that there's there's more out there and that really opens your mind. That's that's kind of infinite universe type of thinking you know that kind of blows your mind up and then there's this second concept of where you really discount the brainstorming session. And I can't remember if it's you or somebody else had the Eureka ranch that told me that. OK you know I told him I said I'm struggling with the difference between brainstorming and the stimulus then because it was all new to me. And so I had a hard time kind of in my head separating out OK. What's different. And the explanation that I got was excellent which was OK. You're going on vacation and you could either start writing stuff down on a piece of paper about where you want to go on vacation because Disney World or Europe or you know we're on a on a ship or whatever or. And then I remember that on the screen big big screens started with the stimulus which was you know a picture of an ocean a picture of a beach a picture of your top vacation.

Tripp: [00:11:19] Let's go. Yeah. Yeah yeah. And and then all of a sudden your brain just obviously opens up. I mean it's it's really amazing as opposed to just kind of sitting around with a blank piece of paper which is really what brainstorming is. Now I'm sure different people have different operational definitions of what a brainstorming session might look like but that for me was the difference between the two. Once I started to actually see it. So it's something that you can communicate you know to other people by virtue of actually going out and even if you don't know what the six different stimulus response pieces are of just going out and looking on the Internet and saying OK what are some ideas that come up within and you know plaster Amona you know in a word document or a PowerPoint or something like that and then show it to your family and then also new ideas will come as opposed to let's go to Disney World again this year. I think I just don't want to leave this particular segment without saying how huge a difference it is between the what you reference as brain draining versus the stimulus piece. It is literally night and day different as far as design.

Doug: [00:12:31] Yeah. And it it is and it all comes from Alex Osborne.

Doug: [00:12:36] He was the father of brainstorming. And so the proper I mean we say brain draining and we get a laugh and an SO it connects to people because they felt the pain of sitting there in the room saying the same old stuff over and over again and and so we're building off of his you know he had two rules with brainstorm. He he coined the phrase brainstorming deferred judgment in quantity breeds quality. And we're in total alignment with that and I cite him in the book and in our courses and we show a picture of him and his book Applied Imagination.

Doug: [00:13:07] The challenge is is that somewhere along the way we got messed up on this that rather than looking at other stuff. Some of us in school we were taught to not look on other people's papers and then we got into the corporate world and we had to know everything and if. And so it's a sign of weakness to ask others for help or to to look something up. I mean you know but in today's world I think it's getting easier and easier as the as the as over the years the Internet's grown.

Doug: [00:13:37] You know when we when we don't know something we pick up our phone and in three clicks we we learn something well it's the same thing only we're providing systems and structures for it whether it's going into the sixth mining's whether it's sparked X whether it's methods for processing it. We've just made it a real science team. Maggie Brad and and the folks at the University of Maine that we work with Rene and and all the rest of them made a real science of learning how do we increase the effectiveness of this. We have it. We're building on Alex Osborne's work with that Alex Osborne we're not there yet but we have a tendency in today's world to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say well we'll just do something totally different. And it's like no Alex had it right. He had it right. It's just we zigged instead of zagged and society changed. And and you know we most recently. So so we have these things called Spark decks these slides and which is a way to communicate. Everybody goes out and does stimulus mining they come back and they share it.

Doug: [00:14:39] And one of the things that we've learned recently is that with this new digital age is and the beauty of it is it's so easy to bring video audio and images and we call it sparked X 3D experiential things that we are people do. And so there is you know it's continuing as a science it's continuing to evolve it's continuing to grow but there is a method to the madness ideas. You know it's not about going on the roof of your house and sitting in a lotus positioning waiting for lightning to strike. I mean that's just not the way it is. And you know the people we call creative are good at making those connections. Well you've never been taught as well as we said last week. How could you know how could you know there was a way a systematic way to literally create ideas. People say they can't grazes and you've never been taught. I guarantee you you can do it if you learn step by step methodology so we talk about OK.

Tripp: [00:15:42] So is there any other things you want to talk about with regards to creating ideas or brain training or stimulus well.

Doug: [00:15:50] Well let's go let's go right into the book excerpt because it's on the exact same subject. OK

Tripp: [00:16:04] It's time now for the Driving Eureka! book segment with author and inventor Doug Hall it's on the exact same subject.

Doug: [00:16:19] And this is from Driving Eureka! and this is from the create chapter where or where I write about this and I start with a quote from Mark Twain. So you know from his biography and of course we're talking stimulus response that that's how ideas are created it's not a sign of weakness that you do that it's a sign that you're intelligent you know the artist walks in the woods and sees to past diverge and frost writes a poem you know about the past diverging. But Mark Twain had a similar concept. He said there is no such thing as a new idea it is impossible. We simply take a lot of old ideas and put them into a sort of mental Kaleidoscope we give them a turn and they make new and curious combinations.

Doug: [00:17:03] We keep on turning and making new combinations indefinitely but they are the same old pieces of color glass that have been in use through all the ages. I said well written well I mean whether it's creating ideas or problem solving ideas or recreating and frankly if you're in the innovation business you know the create is 10 percent of it 90 percent of it is in turning the idea and making it real I was leaving space for you

Tripp: [00:17:45] I mean it's because you know I'm still digesting Mark Twain's quote here you know and and it's funny as you started to read it. I didn't know where you were going to go. I was thinking in terms of oh well yeah that's that was his thought but so you buy into the concept that there is no such thing as a really new idea. And and my brain has always been associating you with there's always a new idea.

Doug: [00:18:16] Oh no no it's that's all I'm going to correct that a little.

Tripp: [00:18:18] OK. Go ahead.

Doug: [00:18:21] They're all new ideas but ideas of feats of association. So I'm not going to lame. You know if somebody you know somebody had the idea of flying and they tried to flap their wings and didn't work then somebody put it engines on it made it work. Well it's not a new idea. Of course it's a new idea. They figured out how to do it right. And so it doesn't bother me where they come from I.

Doug: [00:18:44] They of course they came from all ideas and people sit in teams and say jeez you know we you know we've heard these ideas before. I said Are they good ideas. Oh yeah. They're really good ideas. Well then why didn't you do something about them. Well they weren't quite right. And now they are right. Yeah I said so that's a new idea.

Doug: [00:19:01] Well no it's the same I would get over yourself. You know I'm just tired of people whining. You know there's no time for whining. That's my new year's resolution. No whining anywhere anywhere. Get over yourself. You're not making money in your whiskey business. Do something about it.

Doug: [00:19:18] If you're not happy with your job do something about you know and but you know so much of this is so easy and so Twain talks about it but with Van Gundy we literally did quantitative research. We we had we work with Frito-Lay. They gave us. They were willing to work with us and we created ideas with brain draining and then using stimulus response and then we sent these ideas in to. We typed them all up and we scrambled them so they didn't know what it is. And Frito-Lay went and they scored which were big ideas. They had some criteria they had set. How many were big ideas.

Doug: [00:20:02] And literally there was like eleven hundred times eleven X more ideas created with stimulus response and just under like five points six times more big ideas because they kind of come together. The more ideas you have the more big ideas you have. I mean that's 5 x that's 500 plus percent not a little bit. I mean it's not it's not like this is a tiny thing. This is a step change improvement a step change would be 100 X this is 500 x 500 times 500 percent.

Doug: [00:20:43] It's so easy it's so easy. But we've got to brace a world of opening ourselves up to making those connections and accepting that our past thoughts aren't bad thoughts. They may have just been at the wrong time so.

Tripp: [00:21:03] So let me ask you this what Doug what what are you read about. Let's say you know Google they they set aside I think it was Google that set aside so many hours in a week where they're able to go out and you know think of new products or services you know four for Google and activities like that which companies be doing. I mean do you really set aside time like that does that as well. I think what's the answer to that.

Doug: [00:21:33] I've always found that to be just a public relations stunt you know giving people time but not giving them the education and the resources and the tools to do it is just frustrating to them. And I've never found I mean I worked for Procter and Gamble for a lot of years and no matter what I was doing you always have time to think. You just force it you know you make you make it happen and you can do it. The problem is they don't know what to do. They don't have a purpose. They're on a mission you know which we'll talk about more in future episodes. But you know you need to have an innovation project mission. What do you try to do when you're trying to get to and we call it blue card.

Doug: [00:22:14] But it's you know where you're trying to go and then they don't have a method by which to do it. They've not been taught how to use stimulus response they've not been taught how to leverage to receive. There are tools and techniques that are available now that can amplify your ability I mean we get ridiculous tools that we've got now that allow you to literally write an idea and the computer reads it and gives you advice on how to make it better. I mean this is mindblowing. There is a science to this that people are doing and there are techniques but if you've never been taught them you can you can sit there forever trying to figure it out and it's not going to happen.

Doug: [00:22:49] So to educate they need to educate their people.

Tripp: [00:22:53] So so and I'm trying to you know and I don't want to use this it's probably overused you know. But what does what would perfect look like from an organization from your standpoint. In other words if I may an organization I'm operating the way I am today what should I aspire to look like it from a from a Doug perspective.

Doug: [00:23:19] Well the mission of the Eureka ranch is to enable innovation by everyone everywhere every day. So what you should inspire to is everybody in your organization thinking of ways I'll let me translate that how to work smarter every day.

Tripp: [00:23:44] That's good. That's good. Let's look at the opposite. The opposite is now. I'm going to do the same old crap the same stupid way I've always been doing it.

Doug: [00:23:50] And you know what the hell it's a stupid company and it's not my money that's why we have 30 percent comp you know employee engagement right.

Tripp: [00:24:03] Right. Yeah. There's a lot of things associated with that. But certainly one of them or certainly you know is aspiring to be part of something that's has some usefulness.

Tripp: [00:24:17] You know in society and being able to use your brain in such a way that I'm looking forward to the new thing that that's coming that that I can participate in that it's called.

Doug: [00:24:31] Yeah. There's a simple term for that.

Doug: [00:24:33] I think it's called leadership.

Doug: [00:24:36] It's a leader inspires the troops to charge the best deal the leader inspires the troops to create this startup company. The leader inspires the team to do this because they paint a vision of what they need to do and how is going to make a difference in the world. It's called leadership not management. It's trite thing but that's as simple as that. We have leaders and we have managers we need more leadership in the world at all levels of the organization by the way. So don't be just picking up the nuts at the top. Everybody has a sphere of influence. So you need to start the only way this starts. Dr. Demi started told me you have to change the person before you can change your organization. So no more whining remember. That's the new mission. No whining. Where can you lead. What year is in your sphere of influence how can you make a difference. That's what our new fundamentals course is all about. And if you if you're getting this it's probably a link to the online fundamentals course that you go through that I just redid all of the course all of the videos to teach this for people. You have a sphere of influence. Let's get started right now. And then with that it'll start to grow.

Tripp: [00:25:41] OK. All right. Yeah. I mean this leads to questions to some of these are themes that that we have discussed before. So for instance one of the themes and I just want to touch upon it because it's such a reality which is we're so busy with the schedules and the things that we have just to get the daily activities done in a day when am I going to have time to do that. That's the thing that that seems to be the the the tug. Which is she said would be great if we could do all that but me in my daily days for and that's just taking care of my current customers.

Doug: [00:26:20] Ok. I got an idea. OK. I got an idea. OK.

Doug: [00:26:24] How about if we use the stuff we're talking about to an event a way to work smarter on what you have to do now nothing new. Just do your current work smarter find a more efficient way to do it. A more effective way to do it. Change the system of how you get your work done. Start with your existing project list. Let's work those smarter. That's what we're teaching people to do.

Tripp: [00:26:55] Okay. But then I go back to some of their earlier conversations that we have where you talked about you know you get to spend some of your time and you know creating new things or you're going to be lot left in the dust.

Doug: [00:27:07] So even if I understand I understand. But let's walk before we run out and let's not start with the Boston Marathon.

Doug: [00:27:15] Okay let's get wins and get our courage up and let's build ourselves space because we've worked on ways to more efficiently do the stuff that we've got there and keeping a sense of urgency that we do need those leap ideas. We need those transformational ideas.

Tripp: [00:27:30] Okay. So let me ask this. Which is I'm would say I'm a new CEO in a company and I know that that you know things are changing and in the universe and in the marketplace and it doesn't really matter what business it is.

Tripp: [00:27:51] But I recognize that I need to leap in this new organization I just took though it took over but my people are back just trying to get the daily wash out. Are are you going to slowly and incrementally go through and kind of bring their people along and ignore that leap for a period of time. Or do you kind of find a way to do both.

Doug: [00:28:17] Ok. So if you're a leader that's different. If we if we don't have the leadership then it's your sphere of influence and you start there and get started. OK. If we have the leader what my advice to the leader is very simple let's ask for volunteers to run an experiment in a new way of accelerating leap innovations and because within an organization there's a diffusion of innovations curve.

Doug: [00:28:45] Was about 15 percent that are innovators and early adopters within any organization.

Doug: [00:28:49] About 15 percent in the math is solid and when you ask for volunteers they'll be a group of people that will volunteer and you put a team together.

Doug: [00:28:58] Get yourself a coach to help with it or read the books take your classes online OK. You do it. But the leader has to be involved. You can't outsource this and the leaders help set the strategic mission the Blue Card working with the team and go on this adventure journey together. And in about three months you're going to see a magical transformation start to happen is because people start to believe they can win again because your people can do this I know they can. I'm yet to find idiots working at companies. I found some not some smart people but as a general rule the people there you know the demigod always say well if you fire all the people what makes you believe that the next ones are gonna be any different than the ones you got now. No they won't. You've got to change the system. So for a leader my mission to you is pick some volunteers get going.

Doug: [00:29:54] Accelerate the process. I mean we even offer you Eureka! Inventing which makes you go even faster. Sort of guarantee results quickly but just get started. And then with that success you can then start to build the others. But you've got to do it. You've got to do it quickly because you know if it's gonna take you three months three months from now that means it's six months away and nine months from now means it's a year away. So what's slowing you down. Let's go. This is the brain brew whisky Academy podcasts where we will take you behind the scenes so you can see what it takes to build a whiskey distillery business Eureka ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft Whiskey Company with patented technology like has never been done before

Tripp: [00:30:48] Let's move to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy and since we are on this theme Doug of creating ideas how how does how did this play out or how does this play out in your whiskey distillery.

Doug: [00:31:07] Ok. So what I want to do is I want talk to you about how new whiskeys are created. And because I've had the good fortune to work with some brilliant people in this field but I have to start by explaining the difference between making beer and making whiskey when you make beer. The brewer is the whole thing because they the grains and how they sit together and fermentation and what they do and they craft beer and the beer is the beer. It comes out you drink it when you make whiskey distilleries are usually run primarily by a computer. And it is what it is and what you get out is this pretty white clear spirit that doesn't have much flavor in it. I mean it makes a difference if what grain it is. But fundamentally they're all unless you do it badly. A bourbon is a bourbon arise awry. You can do them badly. There's not a lot of headspace to do them greatly. They are what they are. Usually it's because people feel the magic happens in the wood.

Doug: [00:32:10] That's where 70 percent of the flavor comes in the wood but the wood is so variable that when you put your whiskey in barrels and summer at the top where it's warmer in a warehouse somewhere down below somewhere on the side somewhere inside this different types of woods that you're using.

Doug: [00:32:27] That's where the magic happens. And so while the brewer is the magic for beer the whiskey maker who's the person who takes these barrels and puts them together is the real magician who makes the magical things happen. And so you follow me.

Tripp: [00:32:46] Yeah. Oh yeah.

Doug: [00:32:48] Ok so I had an opportunity one of the most epic moments that that I have had over the last twenty five or so years working with the major spirits companies was I was it at the Macallan distillery who I've worked with I've worked with McCown for now over 20 years with Bob Dujana who's retired now and he had created a whisky for the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth Queen Elizabeth. Oh yeah. This was back in in 2012. Her sixtieth anniversary to becoming the queen. And he this was whiskey had been made and it had sold out rapidly and it was getting rave reviews.

Doug: [00:33:34] And we're sitting there in his in his place where he makes the whiskey where he mixes them and he's got bottles and all kinds of barrels and stuff.

Doug: [00:33:42] And he said Have you tasted the jubilee. And I said No I haven't it's sold out. Oh he says I'll make you one. What he has already takes the pipe. And he takes a sample from one barrel and then another sample from another barrel and another barrel and he puts them together discursive just try that. And as I was before I even drank it I said Well what are you trying to do with this. And he starts to tell this incredible story as he says it's the spring the new queen is the new queen is there and it's a bright day and the such hopes for the young lady who's taking over and he goes through this wonderful wonderful story and you sit and then you tasted it and you could literally.

Doug: [00:34:33] He says that's what I put in here. So what he'd done is he'd created a thought piece in his head of the moment he was trying to create for people. And that was his stimulus that inspired so rather than just try to say let me make something taste good. He had a story that he was trying to match it to. And and it was magical. I mean it just had it. There was a lightness but a significance to the taste.

Doug: [00:35:05] If that makes any sense and I mean just spirits but the power of that story of that stimulus was the same.

Doug: [00:35:14] And and you know said I've created Brain Brew we do the exact same thing so I mean it was with sitting with Bob. It was just it blew my mind that that somebody could literally create a vision and then match the tastes to make that moment come to life.

Tripp: [00:35:36] And so that that's in essence you know as I as I hear this and I'm going to just restate what you just said to some degree but is this this concept of the story that there is whether it's a drink. There is there's that you made basically from scratch or something new that's out there and the story associated with what's driving the production of something

Doug: [00:36:13] Yeah. Yeah. The concept. You know there's a synergy between the marketing and the moment and the product. There's a system that works together that creates the story. Yes it's okay. All right.

Doug: [00:36:31] I'm following that it creates the whole thing so that it's a whole it's not just let me get you technically the best tasting whiskey in the world. There's many whiskies but this makes that moment come to life. And so now you're seeing a sense of crafting that's part of the reason why he's got it in all of his products as part of the reason why MacLeod's the most expensive whiskey in the world. It's one of most successful it's growing sixteen hundred percent over last 20 years is because there is that level of craftsmanship. Even in a big company an intense craftsmanship that's going on with folks like Bob and and now the others that lead it.

Tripp: [00:37:08] You know it's funny that you say that and you know you're probably going to laugh. My family does regularly. There is a drink at the Polynesian Resort at Disney World and it's called the LAPU LAPU. I don't know if you've had a dog or not but it's in a pineapple and I'm not sure everything that's in it. I know rums in it and pineapple obviously. But I love the Lapu Lapu when you're only allowed to have to if they can any idea. Right.

Tripp: [00:37:40] So say I always go to the Polynesian and I order the slop who LA poo. Well interesting enough I started to get curious about what what the hell is a Lapu Lapu who. You know what. What does a la poo. So I whipped back and of course the Internet is available to you. And I looked up Lapu Lapu. Well there was a king Loch who lop who in the Philippines. I'm one of the islands and he is the one responsible for killing Magellan story.

Tripp: [00:38:15] And so every time this last time that we went we go always go for the food and wine festival in the fall. And you know one of the big things that that we like to do is obviously go over the Polynesia have this and I'll not forget this. And hopefully someday these girls I'll listen and my my daughter was about is about their age about 20 to 21 years old but they had to be 21 because they were drinking. But they you know they said hey do you have a drink that you would suggest here. My wife. Yeah. You get see your roller eyes. You've asked the wrong guy you know. So I went on to tell him. Oh yeah you got to have the Lapu Lapu and here's the story and I told the story and everything. And these girls got to got to got a huge kick out of it.

Doug: [00:38:54] But let's see. Let's see the neat thing is this. So this an integrity there's a story there's a drink there's a connection.

Tripp: [00:39:01] Yeah. Absolutely yeah.

Doug: [00:39:02] And so these are not you know what I hate is sometimes you know you get this marketing story and you get the product and the two are not connected. Right. You like what the hell is this. You know enemy since they've just like thrown it at the wall because one department did one thing and one to the other. The key is to get when you're crafting. Spirit is to make it come together which is what you've got there. Disney's this it's all coming together as one.

Tripp: [00:39:27] Right. Yeah I know it's something very very unique. So how have you applied this then this story to your whiskey distillery.

Doug: [00:39:41] So at Brain Brew of course we make custom whiskey so people we say you know everybody deserves their own whiskey and so but we have some examples of ones that we do that are whiskeys but we encourage people to come in and they go through a tasting experience and they craft their own whiskey with their story and their thing and that's what we encourage them to do we teach people how to do this. You can come and you can literally come to our distillery at Eureka ranch on Saturday night and we will teach you and you'll go through the process tasting 12 different whiskeys wheat corn Ryan barley old world new world and craft and you'll make your own.

Doug: [00:40:13] But one of the ways we do this we show our story to it and it's not Bob story of the Queen but it's our story of Cincinnati which as I've mentioned is was the you know the king of whiskey. This is where all the whiskey came out of Cincinnati and when it got on the riverboats. And so we've created a riverboat series honoring Cincinnati and its role in the history of American whiskey and create a different products. And so we've got them and they're named keel boat and paddle wheel and tall stacks and etc. of different boats. But for our paddle wheel we really wanted to do something magical. We wanted to really create how could we go back to the time before prohibition which is way because prohibition caused all of this to blow up. But before prohibition that pre prohibition time could we give take people back to what whiskey would have been like back then.

Doug: [00:41:08] And in this case here what we did is and this is this is nuts but this is going even further is I.

Doug: [00:41:17] I've been very blessed incredibly blessed to be able to taste a lot of whiskey over the years having worked with Macallan and others for many years. And one of the things I've gotten to taste is a lot of very old whiskey. I was at Ken Greer's house once and I had 1920 1930 I mean whiskey is from way back in time.

Doug: [00:41:34] Okay. And over in Scotland at his house. And when you taste those old whiskies there's a very unique character to it. There's a I'm going to say darkness and I don't mean darkness in a bad way. It's like a depth to it that that you get when you taste them. And so I said How could I recreate that taste which would have been whiskey back at the time of the riverboats approximately. And sure enough what we found is somebody said well what about the wood if if 70 percent of the flavor comes from the wood. What if we used old wood. I said Wow. You know there aren't any old barrels like that old. No no no no. I know where there's a barn that fell down and that barn.

Doug: [00:42:19] The wood there's probably 200 years old it was probably a hundred years when they cut the trees and it's been there over 100 maybe 150 or so could be 250 years since the trees grew but conservatively call it 200 you would that would have been the wood they would've used to make barrels.

Doug: [00:42:35] So that's pretty cool. And so we turned around we got some of the wood we cut off the outside. We ran chemical tests and amazingly what we found was that wood is cleaner than the wood from trees today because it's less pollutants in the air. It was actually wood for the wood today which is now Wood today's fine. But there was yeah I mean it was just very clean wood.

Doug: [00:42:56] So this was Virgin American wood and we cut into pieces we chart and we put it into the time compression machine that we have here which mimics seasons of aging. And sure enough the taste blows you away. It is that same taste I'd had it Ken Greer's house which is that very old and I had one of the guys who's one of the big auction houses or it sets the prices. And we sat with him in Edinburgh and I I gave him a taste as he tried to see what you think he says Okay now I'm really mad at you.

Doug: [00:43:30] He says well your whiskies have always been OK. But now you're replicating very old very very expensive whiskey. Is there no end to what you're gonna do. I said Well of course there's no end to it. I'm going to keep doing. He says that is truly amazing that finish that is truly amazing. And so here what we've done is we're literally.

Doug: [00:43:54] So when you come to the bar at the Eureka! Ranch and you come in and you ask one I just say I'd like to take you back to the time of the riverboats when Cincinnati was the Queen City of the West when all the whiskey 70 distilleries in town and if you ordered an upper deck whiskey one of the finest whiskies this is paddle wheel is the taste that you would have had back then and you can notice the depth and the richness of the taste as this bourbon which they weren't called bourbons at the time but they were using high amounts of corn bourbon didn't come into vogue until later. I believe I've got my timing right.

Doug: [00:44:27] I think it came a little later but it was the same type of green. This is the kind of ultra premium spirits that you would have had and. It's no different than what Bob did. Talking about the young queen.

Tripp: [00:44:41] Interesting that that's that that's a great story. Let me. You did say something in there that really got my brain wrapped around this. You know you're talking about the pollutants in the in the wood that exist today that weren't there before. Was that is that something that you can chemically actually remove the pollutants or is that.

Doug: [00:45:05] I don't know that you can remove them but can measure them. OK.

Doug: [00:45:10] Yeah. Because if you remove them you're probably going to remove and we're talking trace levels. I mean when I'm talking anything that's even close to a safety issue. OK. But but you can see traces in it that you can't see in the older wood. It was different. I mean the trees grew closer together. They weren't on tree farms and so the the rings are much denser. I mean it just visual it's just different wood. But if you remove debris it also remove the good linens and the things that give us all the flavor that goes into the whiskey which comes from the wood.

Tripp: [00:45:40] So is part of the key to a good whiskey then finding that now wood that's not polluted. I mean is that part of your.

Doug: [00:45:49] Well I wouldn't say polluted so much as really great wood. OK. You know we're very firm. We've run some experiments. We've got some more going on that when the bourbon boom happened.

Doug: [00:46:04] Sadly a whole lot of companies they used to kill our air dry the wood you'd leave it out for a couple of years to air dry it to get the water down then you finished up make the barrow everybody moved to kiln dried wood and sadly most still don't even know if they're getting well they're getting killed right. I know they are because the air dry is so much more expensive and one of the key secrets to our success is that we can use air dried wood and because of the way we do it and we're so much more efficient that we can give you back the taste that you used to get in. In Rye or bourbon or whiskey whatever whatever form you're making because kiln dried it's literally dead wood and we've got more experiments to run on it but we've not we only use air dried wood in our whisky and so and it's expensive and you know you've got a lot of people who can't even afford the barrels the barrels can get ridiculous. And so instead they're using used barrels which are basically dead barrels. I mean that's what they use in Scotland but they leave it for a long time and they're using barley which is just a whole different animal. And so the wood is the whole thing the whole thing is the wood and then putting that whisky together by mixing and matching. But if you've only made 30 barrels you've got no chance. So with our technology not only can we use oak which is the you know the classic but we use maple and we use chestnut we use cherry and we use old ones and new ones and you know there's all kinds of woods that you can use and they all create different taste and some people are finishing with different ones. We just happen to do it very very quickly and very very high precision.

Tripp: [00:47:46] That's interesting. So this is this is how create really gets into the whiskey business then as is just experimenting with these different woods which you say is makes up 70 percent of the taste.

Tripp: [00:47:59] So that's that's a incredible story. I and I like I like the idea of the story behind the whiskey and as that develops I'm curious to see how this goes on especially with your riverboat you know story that you've started this as well. It's like a journey.

Doug: [00:48:23] Yeah. And interestingly it goes both ways. Ok so in this case here the story came and then the product came but successful whiskeys are a system of interconnected parts with the parts all worked together the price the package the product positioning. Got it. We've also got a line that started from and this is crass but it started from. OK our riverboat line sells for thirty five dollars for a 750 AML bottle classic sized bottle. We wanted to come up with a luxury addition that would be we haven't set the price yet but it would be in the sixty seventy five dollar range. OK now thirty five drinks like a sixty dollar and a sixty dollar should drink like one hundred and twenty dollars. That's what we tried to do as a craft guy we want to have more value for the money.

Doug: [00:49:12] I mean even at sixty dollars and so I started with challenging the team to say OK how do we make a hundred and twenty dollar tasting whisky and there's no story to it and we started and started and started to play and we started to play with technologies and and started to work with different things and get more precise on different things and different woods and different combinations of goods. In this case taking OK from different countries and different places and really taking the science in deeper until and so we would drink the 35 dollar version and then we would taste the next one and say does that seem like a wow.

Doug: [00:49:49] And there was beating ourselves for playing king of the hill with ourselves. There was no story. It was just called we as a business we need to get this product now let's see if we can get a product then we got the product and the product is now inspiring the story. So we're doing it in the reverse direction as we're doing this. And we haven't settled on yet so I don't want to say it yet but there's some really cool elegance coming to this.

Doug: [00:50:17] And another story's developed that is an authentic story about what we're doing combined with this amazing product that the team have made. And so you can start from price you can start from a package you can start from a bottle I relativity product if you look at Relatively whisky dot.com you go see it it's an early Myer flask type looking thing I mean the package inspired the relativity brand okay. And and so you can start from anywhere.

Tripp: [00:50:47] The key is is that serves as stimulus to help you create the rest of the story yeah yeah yeah yeah well there's a whole I'm you've got my this is stimulus mining at its best I got it. Yeah. A whole series of things running through my brain about how the stories develop it could be the product first but I also could be the story of the wood from Germany and the wood from Australia and you've got the bride and the groom and the woods come to her.

Tripp: [00:51:21] You know I just my brain just starts going off on their own hard to put together things like that.

Doug: [00:51:26] Or for Archwave in Cincinnati Cincinnati Music Hall famous grand music venues Symphony and pops we have we're working with arts wave the nonprofit that raises money for the Arts in Cincinnati. And we have when they renovated music hall there was a bunch of wood around the organ when it was rebuilt.

Doug: [00:51:51] And so we've got those beams and we're about to craft a whiskey. That would be it's gonna be one of those very old style whiskeys of the history of music hall and the arts. And so you know it's just writing itself the music the theme the elegance to it. I mean it's just it's just writing. It's gonna be classical and it's just going to be magnificent whiskey I you know by the time we're done it's a lot of craftsmanship to build it. It's a lot of craftsmanship to build these things and do them right. And the sad thing is this most craft people you know you go like hell and you don't have the time to do this thinking. But it's this thinking that's going to make the difference. For you over the long term I mean talk to everybody about your stuff cause your local fire if you really want to create something significant in this business having you know is the voice of experience from a long long time you try something quickly and it never seems to work it's gimmicky but you've got to have that depth and authenticity to really make it work interesting.

Tripp: [00:53:00] Very good. Well let's move on to your craft cocktail recipe which the cranberry mule is now going to be known as the create drink because it's as if with what you had when you all did the story. Now it's got a story.

Doug: [00:53:18] So this concept here of this cocktail the concept of this cocktail. Was it. It is Christmas morning and and and this is going to be just a very. Think of gingerbread and elves and magical mystical whether it's Christmas morning or Christmas Eve. It's really evoking the spirit with a sense of whimsy to it and bringing that to life.

Doug: [00:53:53] And so we're bringing together the flavors of ginger and cranberry and some gin for the spice to it and just giving you this unique a little bit orange zest and giving you this sense of that holiday so that if you're if Santa was going to have one this is what Santa would've had. OK. OK. That that's that's what we're talking. And so it plays off the meal classic drink that uses ginger beer but Phillip created this one as well it's called the cranberry mule.

Doug: [00:54:24] And the recipes in the notes so if you drive and you don't have to write it down you can look it up or just go to the newsletter. It's in the newsletter at DougHall.com.

Doug: [00:54:33] It's an ounce and a half of gin one.

Doug: [00:54:36] And a half tablespoons of cranberry syrup and the cranberries syrup the recipes there. You take some fresh cranberries water sugar ginger and some orange zest you kind of cook them together to make this basically cranberry simple syrup so an ounce and a half again one and a half tablespoons of cranberry serve.

Doug: [00:54:54] Four dashes of cranberry bitters.

Doug: [00:54:57] Top it with some ginger beer.

Doug: [00:55:00] And an orange garnish.

Doug: [00:55:03] And so that's what we're talking just a wonderful I mean it's just going to take you to Christmas Eve or Christmas morning after the presence you just sitting and chilling and you're just having this thing as an aperitif before you have the turkey and the cranberry sauce and all the rest of it OK.

Tripp: [00:55:23] All right. And so does it have a strong cranberry taste then is that kind of the overriding taste of it.

Doug: [00:55:32] So when you make a cocktail we really try to create what's called an accord a balance attention. So what you've got is you've got the gin the cranberry and the ginger and the orange sort of in an accord that kind of comes together. So you've got elements of them but the sum of the parts is greater than the individual pieces.

Tripp: [00:55:53] Ok. They play well together.

Doug: [00:55:56] They do. That's the whole. That's what you're trying to do with the cocktail is to take these pieces in income make them into something magical. And this one is magical.

Tripp: [00:56:05] Very good. All right.

Tripp: [00:56:08] Well this concludes the Brain Bew Whisk(e)y Academy and talking about how to create in the Whiskey space.

Doug: [00:56:21] And this this episode as I'm thinking about it if you're creating a craft distillery you've got to listen to this episode man because this is this is the real deal. This is how it really happens. The epic the huge ones around the world. I've been in the rooms with the people. This.

Doug: [00:56:40] This is how it really creates and it's I mean it would just sell an ethanol OK and it just happens to be uniquely flavored because it's a magical wood. But you got to get into it and that's why I love the craft business because the craft business as opposed to just a straight commercial business there is a love and a care and big companies some have it some dough Macallan is one that has it a lot.

Doug: [00:57:06] I mean that's the success. That's why they're successful. Other companies don't. And craft companies that win that's what they have whether it's craft whisky or whatever your business might be very good.

Tripp: [00:57:18] All right. Well this was this has been an interesting episode. Thank you Doug.

Doug: [00:57:24] Thank you Tripp

Tripp: [00:57:40] Because we appreciate you as a listener. We are offering for limited time for things a one hour abridged audio of the Driving Eureka! book. A subscription to the Driving Eureka! newsletter which contains weekly advice from Doug Hall on how to find filter and fast track big ideas. And the newsletter. Has other offers that are not paid public. The Driving Eureka! prescription for success. You answer questions and we'll help you assess your ability to find filter and fast track big ideas. And you get advice on how to grow your ability to innovate. And the last item. Access to a Doug Hall interview with a radio legend. To get these offers. Go to w w w dot Doug Hall dot com forward slash podcast. And don't forget to subscribe

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