The Embryo Adoption Podcast

Just what does it mean to choose open embryo adoption through the National Embryo Donation Center (NEDC)? It’s a common question, and the answer looks different in every situation. NEDC moms Marti Bailey, Bethany Piechowski, and Nina Brenneman are sharing helpful insights in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note there may be spelling, factual, or grammatical errors as this was generated by AI.)


00:01
Mark Mellinger
When it comes to embryo adoption, how open is open? Maybe another way to ask the question is, are there various levels of openness? And if so, what do they mean? That's what we're going to dive into today here on the embryo adoption podcast. I'm your host, mark Mellinger. Brought to you by the National Embryo Donation center. Embryodonation.org. If you want more information on what we do, three NEDC moms joining us today to talk about this. Bethany Piowski, Nina Brennaman and Marty Bailey. Ladies, so good to have you here. And Bethany and Marty, I'm going to start with you. You two chose open adoption. Nina chose closed. We'll talk with Nina in a second, but let's start with the two of you. Bethany and Marty. I don't care who wants to go first, but unpack why you chose to do open adoption, I'll go first. 

00:53
Marti Bailey
Since mine are the oldest. I would say that I was asked to consider it at first because there was a mom in Knoxville and a dad who had donated their embryos and really wanted a very close relationship with someone in Knoxville. They were in Knoxville as well. And my husband and I prayed about it, and we decided sure we would do that. And the reason why they wanted a very close one is because they were older and they were afraid that when they died, their one only child would be without any family. And so we connected and talked before transfer. Unfortunately, those embryos, they didn't make the fall. So then my next one was so I did have a transfer. It was with closed, but I lost those. So then my next one, I was also once again told that, oh, there's this great family for you. 

02:00
Marti Bailey
And because the embryologist knew I wanted a really large family and said, hey, they have 25 embryos, and so would you consider them? So I did, but I put limits on it because I knew from my first experience that I couldn't handle because I had gotten close to the family. So not only did I grieve for those embryos that didn't thaw out, I grieved for them not having that relationship that they desired for their child. And so, after that experience, I decided I've got to set some limits for myself. I cannot have contact with them until after a live birth. And so I did. And then my children were born early at 30 weeks. And so I contacted them, just letting them know health information. They were in the NICU for 40 days, 46 actually. And so I just gave them basic health information. And that is kind of why the donor mom donated her embryos. 

03:13
Marti Bailey
She said she wanted somebody to contact her if they were in need of health emergency. She wanted to be able to help out. So it just started from there, and it evolved. So just kind of like any normal relationship, you have a starting point. You meet someone and you have something in common. For us, obviously, it was infertility and the embryos and you just kind of evolved from there. So we just started out giving information over the Internet, and it just kind of grew when we connected. So then she asked me, I invited her to her family was in Connecticut and I'm in Tennessee, but I went ahead and asked them to their first birthday party, which I figured they wouldn't come because it's a long trip and they declined, but they were thankful for the invitation. And then we just prayed about it and thought we'd like to meet. 

04:15
Marti Bailey
And so we decided kind of on a neutral ground and we'd go on vacation together. And so that was our first meeting. And it was scary at first, but we ended up having a great time. And so then we just continued to email. And the next year went to their house in Connecticut and got to meet. And then at that point, were asked to do a blog together for the NEDC. And I would say at that point, once we started writing for the blog, we actually had less communication with each other because all we had to do was read each other's blogs and know what was going on in our life. So from there, we would just contact each other if we had questions or anything like that. So went to Disney together a couple of times when they were young. I would say we've had more contact when they were younger and we just hit it off. 

05:21
Marti Bailey
Patty. And I did. I just felt like kindred spirits. And so were asked oftentimes at Disney if were sisters because we look so much alike. But as the children have gotten older, they just turned 15 yesterday. I have found that we have less communication with them. When they were in 6th grade, they were asked to go to their beach house and we dropped everything and went. And we had a great time. Their oldest sibling works at Disney. Last year were at Disney for their birthday and he so lovingly agreed to meet us. And then yesterday we just got a text, happy birthday to the twins. And so I haven't talked to him, but if I had a medical question, in fact, I did, because Julian had some allergies this year, I text her and say, hey, are your kids allergic to peanut butter? And I said, okay, this is all his allergies. 

06:20
Marti Bailey
He just got tested. A lot of it started off as medical and then we grew a relationship, but life happens. And I would just say it's fluid, it's in and out. And my children have the option to contact their biological siblings or not. And it's kind of up to them. But I would say it's just kind of like all relationships. Sometimes it's gone closer and sometimes we haven't really talked at all. And we might just have a card in the mail at Christmas or something. 

06:57
Mark Mellinger
Well, and that's a really good perspective, Marty. I really appreciate that. And one reason we're doing this podcast is to let people know that as beautiful as that relationship is, you've met in person several times, you've taken vacations together. That is not always what open looks like. That can be great if that's what you want. Other people thinking of something like that absolutely leaves them scared spitless. Now, Bethany, let's talk about your open situation, because to the degree that you're able, I know yours is not quite to the level of marty's, explain why you chose open and what parameters you wanted to set. 

07:43
Bethany Piechowski
Sure. So when my husband and I first started going through the process, we didn't really know what we wanted. So were really seeking counsel from the social worker that were looking or that were working with, and we originally were planning on doing closed. And I guess, as an aside, what's really important in this is that there's no right or wrong answer whether you choose closed or open and whether you choose if you do choose open, if it's contact at age 18, or all the way to going on a vacation together. I think it's a very individual decision based on what the recipients are looking for, what the donors are looking for, and so on. So I think it's really important to point that out. But for us, we had originally opted for closed, and that's just what our gut told us. But we didn't know if that was the right thing. 

08:40
Bethany Piechowski
And so in seeking counsel from the social worker, her she had shared just, I guess, the general concept of no surprises, right. Most kids will want to know where they came from. And so we really grabbed onto that perspective and thought, well, let's try to navigate down this path and see if that's something that makes sense to us, knowing that in this day and age, even if you choose closed, it's essentially open. Right. With the 23 ANDME and all of the resources that are out there, even those that choose closed eventually, whether it's now or down the line, probably have the option of finding at least some family members at some point, whether it's the original donors or related family members. But anyhow, so went down the path and made a decision to do open. And as we thought and prayed about it, we decided, let's really go for it and see if we can do a very open relationship. 

09:54
Bethany Piechowski
And so it took us some time to get matched and we landed with a couple that we really thought we could have a great relationship with. So went into transfer and had a very transparent relationship. And then partway through the pregnancy, on the second transfer, our child's biological father passed away. And it changed the trajectory of the relationship, and we have the utmost respect for our child's biological mom and family, and we are very respectful of her needs and her wishes she had pulled back during that time, and we completely understand. So we are taking it one step at a time, and as the relationship unfolds and develops, we will go to where she wants, and that is perfectly okay with us. The benefits that we had identified for Open and what we had found to be valuable was the medical information side. Our child does have some medical issues, and we have needed that medical information in managing his health issues. 

11:23
Bethany Piechowski
And so that has been helpful. So what was originally intended for Open has not turned out that way, and that's perfectly okay. So we take it one step at a time and with the utmost respect for the gift that were given, and we go from there. So where is it going? I don't know. And that's okay. We'll figure it out as we go. 

11:49
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. And that's life, right? I have some follow up questions for both of you, Marty and Bethany. But Nina, I want you to jump in here. You chose closed. You have two NEDC children. Why did you decide to go closed? 

12:05
Nina Brenneman
Well, I'm adopted. I was placed as a four day infant with a biological birth mother who chose adoption early on, created an adoption plan, the whole nine yards. My adoption has always been considered closed, and that was what I understood. And I chose closed because I can parent that. I can identify with all of the questions that are going to come up. I can emotionally understand and absolutely handle all of the questioning and the confusion and all of the things that are going to come up when my children have questions about their origin or understanding all of that. And they have a confusing origin. I mean, it's confusing to have a four year old to explain embryo adoption to a four year old. It's very easy to explain traditional adoption to a four year old, which is about the time I've always known I was adopted. 

13:11
Nina Brenneman
But that's really about the time I remember conceptualizing what it was. Embryo adoption is not something that a four year old can grasp, much less a two year old. I mean, they parrot back their story. And so once that clicks, it's going to bring up a lot of confusion and a lot of questions. And I went through all of that because I did not have access to biological parents. I did not have access to much information about them just based on the nature of my adoption. So we chose closed because I can parent that. And quite frankly, choosing the closed route is just a lot more simple. You don't really have to parse out exactly what you're looking for. You don't have to sell yourself to or present yourself to the donor. The couples that are looking to place their embryos. And as I characterize it's a tomorrow problem. 

14:19
Nina Brenneman
And so I felt confident and comfortable with it, more so than open. Just because of my story of origin and my family of origin and how I was raised, which is all positive. I see my adoption as a blessing and a positive inflection point in my life, and I'm grateful for it. So I can raise children that way, basically, is why we chose closed to put an additional kind of level of it's a little more complicated, just because of the origin, just because embryo adoption is not something a four year old, five year old, six year old is necessarily going to be able to understand. But we can deal with that and navigate it well because I've likely encountered all of those problems and concerns. And if my son we have a daughter and a son, and if my son, if Dean has questions that I may not be able to answer or identify with, my brother's adopted and we're very close, and so he can and will happily help in that aspect too. 

15:28
Nina Brenneman
So we have the resources and we have the ability just by the nature of who we are. And so we felt more confident with that than pursuing open makes sense in your situation. 

15:42
Mark Mellinger
I can completely see why you would choose Closed. And by the way, a disclaimer here. Before we get to some follow up questions for you all, we at the National Embryo Donation Center are not here to advocate one route over another. That's not at all the purpose of this podcast. That's nothing that we're here to do. We're really investigating what open can mean because that's something that is confusing to a lot of people. There are pros and cons as you look at each. Nina, you brought it up. If you go open, it's going to take longer. It's going to take a month to month and a half longer for your frozen embryo transfer to happen. It's going to be considerably more expensive. You're going to spend close to a couple of least that you wouldn't spend if you were going closed. On the other hand, there are advantages to open, as Bethany has pointed out. 

16:40
Mark Mellinger
And Marty, there's the advantages of faster access to medical history, your child's genetic medical history, perhaps more readily accessible. Are there genetic origins? You can add a relationship, a beautiful relationship to your life, and usually that's how it works in open relationships. Not always. Sometimes that relationship you add actually gets messy and it's not a blessing. So there's no certainty, there's no guarantee, and there are pros and cons. Either way, I thought it was important to at least issue that disclaimer before we continue this interview. Okay, Marty and Bethany, I want to talk to both of you. Like Marty, it sounds like you ended up really pressing in to your relationship with your donor family more than you originally expected how much of what your relationship looks like now was dictated by your open donation agreement that you worked out with a social worker more than 15 years ago. 

17:51
Marti Bailey
I can say I don't even remember what we even said. But I can tell you 100% that the donor mother 100% thought, I will just share my medical information. And because she had so many embryos, I will say she has two other families and they aren't as open as her and I that I know of. In fact, one of the other families has come to my house and I have met them and they have stayed with me, but they didn't feel comfortable meeting Patty and her family for whatever reason, and that's fine. That is a choice. So her open with them is interestingly, more closed off than with me, whatever, and that's fine. And like I said, I think it's changed because I think one, because of Natalie and Julian health, I think when they were born and were looking, are they going to live? 

19:03
Marti Bailey
And just updating, okay, please pray for them. This is what we've got now. And just continuing, I think it connected them. Like, everybody's praying for these babies and thank you so much. Look how they've grown and look at answered prayers. And then she would just share more with me. And I'm like, oh, I could relate to that. And just as we got to know each other through email, back and forth, I remember the first time we talked on the phone, she couldn't get over my Southern accent. There was a lot of newness it was kind of frightening, honestly. But the Lord met me there and met both of us there, and I was scared to go to her house. I was fearful. But even her extended family, they welcomed us and loved on us. And when I walked into her house and went up the stairs, she had done a cross stitch birth announcement, the exact same one I had done for my children. 

20:14
Marti Bailey
I don't think cross stitching is a huge thing people do much anymore. So I just felt that was God's reassurance, that it's going to be okay, you're doing the right thing. I'm here with you through the fear because it is scary. And I think any relationship is whether you're talking about a boyfriend, girlfriend, if you're talking about whatever, because it's uncertain, you don't know how it will go. But I do feel 100% blessed by it and would I like to have more information, maybe not information. If they lived closer, we would probably see each other more. But I don't feel any pressure to send them a birthday card or send them a card. If I forget, no big deal. If they forget, no big deal. So it's just to me, it's developed now into a normal relationship where just life happens. And now Natalie and Julian have the option. 

21:23
Marti Bailey
But I can tell you their biological brother felt really blessed to see them last year on their birthday. And he really enjoyed, because he has two brothers, seeing how much Natalie and Julian are like him and his brothers, like how different they are, like, oh, yeah, Natalie's really shy. That's like my brother Chad. Or Julian's really outgoing, and he loves basketball. That's like my brother Joel. So that was really cool, I think, to see those different characteristics and see how they are in his family. 

22:02
Mark Mellinger
Yeah, that's great. And I love that you pointed out that your donor family does not have the same level of openness with some of their other recipient couples as they do with you. That is a truth that we really want to highlight and bring out as a result of this podcast, is that open relationships can constitute everything from near closed. You exchange an email, a letter, once a year. Maybe you share social media handles to going on vacation, seeing each other in person from time to time, as you all have. Bethany, yours is a little different, it sounds to me. Bethany, tell me if I'm wrong. I sure certainly could be. It sounds to me like whatever was decided in your open donation agreement, it's actually perhaps the opposite of what Marty's case is. You're probably not having as much contact as you stipulated, right? 

23:05
Bethany Piechowski
Yes. You go through and you set forth what your intentions are for frequency and types of contact. And yes, in our case, there's less. And that's okay, right? We hope and pray that it opens more as originally intended. But if it doesn't, then it doesn't. Our son's biological family is working through sharing the existence of our son and this process with him. And so our son has a biological brother, and that is becoming news to him. And so our collective hope, our son's biological mom, we believe, hopes based on what she shared, as well as we certainly hope that the two boys will at some point have a relationship as they grow. And they used one embryo and we used four, and that was what was in the batch. And so there are no other biological children in the group, and so maybe at some point that will develop. 

24:22
Bethany Piechowski
But yes, what we had originally intended in our agreement is not where we are today. And we respect that. Right. The best laid plans don't always work out that's life. And if it had turned out where we only had contact at age 18, then we would have respected that too. So I just think it's important to if you choose open, it's good to remember that you can have any level of openness from contact at age 18 or 25 or whatever the age is, all the way to going on vacation together. But if you stay stuck in what's in your agreement, and you are so firm about that, you're going to miss the potential for some flux in the relationship. And that's just the value of real life, that those things happen. So we will take it one day at a time. 

25:25
Mark Mellinger
Nina, you were telling me before we had this conversation that you're not dissatisfied with the choice you made. Clearly, closed was the right choice for you for the reasons that you mentioned. But you do say you didn't necessarily understand fully what open constituted when you and your husband were beginning the process with the NEDC. What do you wish would have been done differently? And would you have spent more time considering the option had you have better knowledge? 

26:03
Nina Brenneman
Sure. So under the NEDC's definition of open, choosing an open relationship, my very closed, very anonymous, traditional infant adoption would be considered open. So to further parse that out, my mom, my parents, from the day I was placed with them until I was 21, sent biannual updates to my adoption agency was just so that my birth family, should they choose to, could follow up and get non identifying, updated information on us. She did that for my brother. We were raised with a bunch of friends who were gladney babies, my adoption agency, and same thing for all of them too. It was just common practice. When I turned 25, my adoption agency got in touch with my mom and told me that my biological mother had passed away due to a cardiac condition that was genetic. Because her father, my maternal biological grandfather, was able to reach out to the adoption agency to share that information. 

27:22
Nina Brenneman
I was able to get screened. Should I have it, were going to be able to catch it and I would have been fine. That is considered open with Annie DC? 

27:36
Mark Mellinger
Yes. 

27:37
Nina Brenneman
And so my biological family never followed up to get information on me, but it didn't change my life. My brother's biological family, through his paternal aunts and uncles and grandparents and maternal, he had a very supportive biological family that did check up on him multiple times a year. And so it was closed until he was 32 and chose to initiate contact with them. Right. I have not chosen to initiate further contact just based on my preference. That being said, that would all be considered open with the NDC. And I did not know that was not further parsed out in any of the preliminary education or kind of the initial meetings discussing about the NADC and what open was and what closed was. So we just chose closed. I think that obviously, the children the Lord intends to give you, however they come about, are going to come about regardless of open or closed. 

28:53
Nina Brenneman
Embryo adoption, traditional adoption, biological parenting, carrying them the traditional way, I think it's all going to work out the way the Lord intends. But had we had that information, it would have opened up a different level of conversation between me andrew, my husband, on what we both felt comfortable with and it obviously would have opened up the potential donors. I mean, it would have opened up the batches of embryos and it would have given us a greater potential. And if it hadn't worked or weren't able to find a family, that would be kind of more into the child led contact at 18 intermediary discussion, the very closed open, the closed side of open, then anonymous or closed would have been fine too. But to Bethany's point, nothing is truly anonymous anymore. I mean, we can do 23, ANDME when children are 16 or 18 and really want that, I can do it. 

30:06
Nina Brenneman
If I really need to do that. I can also go through Gladney and get all of the information, should I choose to do that. But the piece about the life saving medical information is kind of the linchpin to why we would have considered a very closed side of open, because that condition is treatable if it's known, but it's rarely diagnosed before autopsy. 

30:38
Bethany Piechowski
To that point. It can also be for the benefit of the donors because something may come up with your biological child that your donors family hasn't seen but could see. Right. So there's a benefit in both directions and to the extent that open is chosen, but just for medical information, it can be just that. It doesn't have to morph into anything else. Right. And many donors want it that way as well. 

31:08
Nina Brenneman
Right. And I just think that information was not as clearly I don't know if it was clearly defined necessarily five years ago when we started doing that, or if I just missed it, I very easily could have just missed it. 

31:28
Bethany Piechowski
I think it's important for the donor nurses to have these conversations with the donors and the recipient nurses to have these conversations with the recipients. And like we've said a number of times, there's no right or wrong answer here. We're not advocating for closed versus open because it's a very individual decision, but there's education to be had in the options, I guess. 

31:50
Marti Bailey
Absolutely. 

31:55
Nina Brenneman
I have been pretty staunchly in the closed or anonymous group, mainly because you can feel a lot of pressure from kind of the social workers that you talk to about your home study and you go through. When you're reviewing your home study and the pre transfer education you need to go through, you can feel the pressure for open. And I took that personally because I have a closed adoption and so I have previously been in the very much like closed adoption children. The anonymous embryo adoption route is going to raise happy, healthy, flexible, resilient children. Just like parents who choose open, whatever end of the spectrum they choose, it whether it's open or just medical information. Maybe contact at 18, they're going to be able to raise the same children, the same types of kids. At the end of the day, both of them are completely valid and there should be no pressure either way. 

33:02
Nina Brenneman
To Bethany's point, my closed, very anonymous adoption from the perspective of an embryo of the NEDC specifically is not closed. Right. Which is fine. I just wish that had been more of a point made while were choosing what route we wanted to go. 

33:27
Mark Mellinger
These are really important points. And before we run just a couple things by way of response, I would say, Nina, it's an excellent point, really. We have now four people doing what one person was doing when the three of you came through the organization. So I will say this is one area where I think the NEDC has improved. We're always trying to get better. It's extremely possible that you didn't miss it when you went through. I would say it's it's entirely possible that, yeah, you know, it's it was the former of what you said and not the latter, so we are always trying to get better, and we've really beefed up our recipient and donor nurse and coordination teams. And I know the ladies that we have now in those roles are pretty firm on elucidating exactly what each route involves. But it's a good reminder if you're going through ask questions whether you're donating embryos, whether you're adopting embryos. 

34:38
Mark Mellinger
Just like when you go to the doctor, there is no such thing as a stupid question. You can email us, you can call us. If you don't get through to somebody else, email me or call me. I'll make sure you get through. That never bothers us where we want you to make the best decision for you and to be fully informed. Also, by way of explanation, I think it was just an important caveat to add, even if you go closed, you can still have access to that medical information. We have anonymous donors who do call. If a previously undiagnosed condition emerges, they let us know, and then it is passed on to the recipient family. So it's certainly more likely to happen. The access will be easier and more likely right, if you're open. But it can still happen and does still if you are if you're closed. 

35:36
Mark Mellinger
So man, such a good conversation. It's hard to know exactly how to end it, but I guess we'll do it here. I mean, each of you talk about the best part of what you chose and the hardest part. Let's start with you, Marty. 

35:59
Marti Bailey
I think the best part for me is seeing the children together and getting to see them laugh and cut up, because to me, it's all about the kids. When it boils down to it, that's what it's really about. So I enjoyed seeing them at Disney and seeing them enjoy their relationship. And I guess the hardest part is just being are you able to allow more people into your heart? Because the more people you allow, more things that can happen. But I've had a good situation, so I don't know. 

36:53
Nina Brenneman
But. 

36:53
Marti Bailey
I guess it just gives me more people to pray for. My list is just longer. 

36:58
Mark Mellinger
Bethany? 

36:59
Bethany Piechowski
I would say the best part is just the opportunities that exist in navigating this, right, and the opportunities to pray through it and knowing what potentials could be there. And if they're not there, then that's okay. So we see that as an opportunity and a bright side, I don't really see a downside. All of us going through this process are going to navigate the same issues, which is how do you explain this to your kids at the end of the day, whether you choose Open or closed, how do you explain this to your kids? And our NADC kiddo is five, like Nina's four year old, he doesn't really get it. It's a general conversation that we have around our house. Our kids are aware of this, but eventually it's going to click. There will be some, I'll say, explaining to do, right, because they need to be aware, but we don't really necessarily see that as a downside as opposed to just something that will be part of their story no matter which route is taken. 

38:16
Bethany Piechowski
So not necessarily a hard part, but just kind of a fact of life for all of us that are going through this process. But as it relates to a downside of choosing Open, we don't see a downside. We feel pretty blessed. 

38:35
Mark Mellinger
Nina, do you have a last word for us? 

38:37
Nina Brenneman
I do. So the best part of choosing Closed is that we have these two beautiful babies that are happy and healthy and fun and keep our hands and hearts full. I mean, that's really the end goal, right? So we're grateful to the Lord for that and to the NADC and the donors and all of that. I think, again, the hard part is just going to would be the same if we chose Open. It's just explaining this complicated concept as they continue to get older and just knowing some of the questions and concerns and things that are likely going to come up. Because I've been through it, maybe that's the hard part, but I don't necessarily see that as hard because I was raised with a bunch of kids and still am friends with a bunch of adopted children, people who are adopted as infants. And it's a wonderful thing and a great story. 

39:43
Nina Brenneman
And again, it all works out that's kind of the biggest thing I want to say is that it all works out the way that it should on the timing that it should. It may not be the way you necessarily want it in the beginning, but it works out the way that it should and it turns into a wonderful blessing. And if it was easy, everybody would do it. And so often the things you work the hardest for have the sweetest reward. And I think that kind of is the bottom line for me. Choosing Closed and totally anonymous multiple layers of anonymity in our situation is a good thing. I think it will eventually be a good thing. Still is a good thing, because we have two wonderful children because of that. So that's kind of my two cent. 

40:40
Bethany Piechowski
Well, let me say one more thing. 

40:42
Mark Mellinger
Bethany. 

40:42
Bethany Piechowski
Yeah, sure. That's such a good message. Nina and Mark, you and I were just having this conversation earlier this week of our expectations in whatever it is rarely God's path. And so trusting and praising him for him versus what actually unfolds. And what we had intended and hoped hasn't turned out the way we had intended and hoped. And we respect where we are, and we very much respect our donors. And that is what God has intended. Right. 

41:24
Mark Mellinger
Well said. Well said. If you're listening to this and you have any questions at all about this, feel free to get in touch with us at the National Embryo Donation Center. Our website is embryodonation.org. You can go to the About US page and you'll see my email address on there. You can email me directly if you have further questions. We really hope that this podcast episode, at least, is a beginning of you hopefully understanding what the different levels of openness can look like through the NEDC and to the point that Nina made earlier. Don't put pressure on yourself, which sometimes people do, whether it's intended or not. I don't think it usually is, but they may internalize something that's said to them and put pressure to go in one direction or another. No. This is between you and your spouse and the Lord. And there is, as you all have said, no wrong answer. Thanks again, ladies. So great to have the time with you. I'm Mark Mellinger, and this has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

You never know just what God will use to touch someone’s heart. For Lauren & Joe, a special childcare program called Safe Families eventually led them to a passion for embryo adoption. What followed were challenges: a longer than expected wait, Joe trying to overcome his anxiety about needles & giving shots, grieving the loss of an embryo that failed to thrive. But waiting at the end of it all was the baby boy who’s now brightening their home (and this podcast is getting released on his one-year transfer anniversary!). There’s so much to glean from their story, which they’re sharing in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

Jared & Kristi experienced the heartbreak of several embryo adoption transfers with no success. It made no sense to them. They know, this side of eternity, it never will. Yet there’s so much to learn from this brave NEDC couple. They’re sharing their story to help others, on this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. 

Rate, review, and subscribe to The Embryo Adoption Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts....    



FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note there may be spelling, grammatical, and factual errors as this transcript was generated by AI.)

 00:01
Mark Mellinger
Generally on the embryo adoption podcast, we're sharing stories that turned out well in just about every respect. We want to be very careful and transparent, too, as we describe the ups and downs of embryo adoption to cover absolutely every angle. The truth is, not every story has the happy ending with the neat bow, and we need to talk about that. So that's what we're doing today. I'm Mark Mellinger, your host. This is the embryo adoption podcast brought to you by the National Embryo Donation Center. My guests today are Jared and Kristi Taylor. They have been gracious enough to go down this hard road with us here for today's episode. I can't thank you, too, enough for this. I think it's really important for people who either have gone through embryo adoption and have experienced some of the same feelings that you have and people who are prospective embryo adoption families to know about this and hear about it. 

 01:02
Mark Mellinger
So it's really important. I want to start here, though. Why did embryo adoption initially pique your interest? 

 01:11
Kristi Taylor
We actually have three biological children first, and went the route of oral fertility drugs with the first two. The last one was a total surprise. We just started pursuing a traditional adoption. We looked into traditional adoption for a long time. A bunch of different agencies. Our fertility doctor actually recommended us for embryo adoption, and so I started looking into that. I was on board with it more before Jared was, so I just kind of waited for him to catch up with me. I don't know. Being pregnant, pregnancy is a cool thing. It's a miraculous thing. I think that was part of the draw, I think, to embryo adoption, because it's a neat thing to be able to have babies and your own babies and how to, I don't know, take your prenatals and how to do all the right things with it. And so that was a cool thing. 

 02:05
Kristi Taylor
Adoption has always been in our path, though. 

 02:07
Jared Taylor
Well, I think it gives a different perspective to the traditional adoption, because one traditional adoption is very hard right now, and it's a business. The other thing you get with traditional adoption is you don't for sure know what you're getting. Embryo adoption presented a path that felt like it was more in line with what our standards were, of how were living our own life, and gave us an opportunity to bring children that would be like us and that would have genetics like us that were a little more the environment was a little more controlled than just a wild card. 

 02:45
Mark Mellinger
Definitely a more controlled environment. You guys ended up being one of our favorite couples. You always had a story for us every time you came in the door, and we're always of such good humor, so it's just proof you don't have to have had NADC kids, through the NADC at least, who survived outside the womb to be part of the NADC family, because, Jared and Christie, you very much are. Describe your experience with the NADC. 

 03:19
Kristi Taylor
We love you all. That's part of the frustrating thing about it all is like, everything should have worked out and then it all just became this massive. Well, 2020 was not a good year, I think, for anybody. That's pretty much how I would sum it up. 2020 sank pretty bad, right? We first matched with our first embryo donation family, we adored them. They even had the same names as us. Their babies looked like our babies. It was just meant to be. I think when went in for that transfer, I was a little shocked. I think that was my biggest shock when it didn't work out, because everything was supposed to be and it obviously wasn't. COVID started and I was suddenly homeschooling our three children and that was a disaster. Went in for our second transfer. I remember, well, the week before we left to Tennessee, were actually matched with a baby for this traditional agency were working with. 

 04:23
Kristi Taylor
And were so excited for that. We were still going to go to Tennessee and we had this baby. The day that the mom was supposed to show up here in our state, she didn't come. So then we didn't have that baby. We flew to Tennessee and we landed. I turned my phone on and I had this message from Dr. Keenan saying, hey, something came up. I need you to call me. Here's my cell phone number. Thought, well, this is beautiful. We called him and he said that they went to thaw out the embryos and there wasn't any. He doesn't know what happened to them. We could decide what we wanted to do if we wanted to fly home or go for what was it? 

 05:01
Mark Mellinger
A backup set, right? 

 05:02
Jared Taylor
Yeah, it was anonymous transfer. All these big words, so we wouldn't have the information, we wouldn't have the couple that we had picked out. I believe with each one of them, we actually did zooms with them. At least one of them, maybe two of them. We did zooms prior to actually them accepting us, which is an interesting thing of where they still had control. These ones, we got that phone call and he goes, this is the first time we've ever had it happen here. It's a surprise. We've heard of it only at one other time. This doesn't happen. That night went and we prayed about it. Because of COVID we couldn't change our flight. It wasn't easy to do. We just got up the next morning and we thought, well, we'll just go in and see if any others come across. Our feeling that we think we should do. 

 05:58
Jared Taylor
We found one, and that one was actually successful. 

 06:02
Kristi Taylor
Yeah, for a week. Was it? 

 06:03
Jared Taylor
For a week? 

 06:04
Kristi Taylor
For a couple of days. I don't know what happened with that. I think one stopped growing and then the other one I don't know. Was it a topic? I don't know. All I know is I was getting my blood drawn like every week for the next two months. So that was fun, it was pleasant. I was good relationships with our fulfillment. Went for a third transfer, and I think neither one of us had really high hopes with that. 

 06:29
Jared Taylor
The pessimism set in but the staff at NEDC is just great. Everybody there from the minute you walk in to the minute you leave, and through even the phone calls of the next couple of weeks, they take care of you and they care about you. And you really did. You do feel like it's a family and you want to be a part of it. I think that's why we want to do this today, too, is because even though weren't successful in the way we wanted, we still hope we can still be a part. We've had a few friends that have reached out to us wondering about it, and we've referred them over. It's hard it is to possibly be a blessing to somebody else in their own life when you didn't get it to come through, or hoping at least we can still be of some good. 

 07:17
Mark Mellinger
Well, and you certainly are by doing this. You didn't have to do it, you weren't pressured into it. You wanted to do it after prayerful consideration, and I really respect that. Take me to that moment, because others who go through embryo adoption have been there or may be there. That moment when you realized the ultimate result was not going to be what you wanted, even though the vast majority of couples who come through the NEDC for multiple transfers do have children, you reached the end of the line, and that wasn't going to be your result. What were your thoughts and how did you grapple with that? 

 08:02
Kristi Taylor
Well, I'd have to say ice cream is always like a good route to use chocolate, any of those. Also, I think giving yourself grace and knowing whatever emotion you feel is fine and it's okay and it doesn't matter. I don't think emotions are a bad thing. I think that they're perfect. I think you can let yourself have time to be angry and to be upset with how it should have been. I don't know what are you going to say to it. 

 08:35
Jared Taylor
I think part of it too came down. We're on the West Coast and there's not a direct flight from we're in Salt Lake. There's not a direct flight into Knoxville for us, and so it's a few day event, and with our three kids with their ages. It was taxing on them for us to go and be gone. They were a part of the journey, too. We did not have any secrets from them. They knew what was going on. They knew that were trying to do it, and they got excited about it. And you just come to it. You desire and you want it so bad, but sometimes what may have meant to be and whatever was in the plan, success from our eyes was not success from God's eyes. Unfortunately, he has to allow the things of Earth to happen, too. He's pretty good at allowing agency and the elements to take place. 

 09:42
Mark Mellinger
Was that the hardest part, sharing the disappointment with the children? 

 09:51
Kristi Taylor
No, not really. We have of disappointment in our family anyways, and so it just was like, oh, hey, guess what, guys? I think my hardest part was I thought for sure this is what God wanted us to do, and then it didn't work. I think my hardest part was being like, okay, well, I'll just write this down to my little memoirs, and then when I die, I'll have my book club chat with God and be like, hey, I'd really like to discuss these chapters because what the heck? It doesn't make any sense to me. I think that is what I'm waiting for, because I don't think it will make sense on Earth. It doesn't. Nobody can say anything that will make sense, because it doesn't. I think that is just where that is. It's just in my little memoirs, and I will wait until I am dead. 

 10:36
Jared Taylor
From the husband's perspective, it's really a helpless spot to because you have no control over anything. You can give your opinion, you can give advice, but pregnancy brings along its own set of mindset, and you have to watch your wife go through and prepare to become pregnant. It's IVF transfer, so there's a lot of hormones that are injected and you go through a lot of that. The emotions are real, and it's a difficult spot to try to be supportive and move through it and help everybody just keep going forward. 

 11:21
Mark Mellinger
Are you still glad you adopted embryos? 

 11:24
Jared Taylor
Yeah, I think so. Because even though we don't have a connection with those individuals anymore, I think when we get to the next side, we still will have a connection. I think our sphere of people have grown, if nothing else. We learned some things, as Chris has said, it's not necessarily some things we particularly wanted to learn or whatever want anybody to have to go through, because it challenges you as to whether you feel like you succeeded in life or not. I think it's definitely been an experience, that's for sure. 

 12:07
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. My devotion last night was a Tim Keller reading on job, and it was really speaking to what you both have said. Sometimes when we suffer and it seems to make no earthly sense, we're going through the same thing that Job went through. God never revealed the reason to him of his suffering. At least it's not recorded in the book of Job. But he did have a purpose. He did have a plan. Job just didn't see the plan. That's where you two are right now when it comes to embryo adoption. That's where we all are, through various struggles and trials in our lives, right? These things that it seemed to be like, why would this not work? What the heck? What's going on? At least we have that assurance of knowing there is a plan and we'll know someday, like you said, Christie, but we don't see the plan now. 

 13:07
Mark Mellinger
We just have to put our trust in the fact that someday we will. I want the two. If you look at the NADC success. 

 13:15
Jared Taylor
Rate from our first transfer to the third transfer, the organization success rate shot, if I remember right, it went from like on the first one. I remember asking Dr. King, what are our odds? And he basically said, flip a coin. That's about where we're at right now. From after that third one and even to now, it looks like it's more in the 70% to 80%, depending upon the cycle. 

 13:44
Mark Mellinger
Now we have had many that have had that success rate. Not everyone does. You still have your more around 50% and I think we've had even one or two that were lower. One thing I like about working here is we never want to embellish our press clearings. We want to be honest and straight shooters with people. You are right, Jared. The vast majority of our cycles, it seems like the rates have only gone up over the past couple of years, but not all of them are that way. It's certainly not a guarantee, but yeah, I know what you're saying. It increases the frustration, right? 

 14:32
Jared Taylor
It does. 

 14:33
Mark Mellinger
What would you say? Okay, talk to somebody who is just going in on the front end of embryo adoption when couples are doing this, understandably and there's validity to this, they're excited, they're dreaming and hoping and thinking of the possibilities of having children. What would you say to someone who's just on the front end? This possibility something they need to keep in the back of their mind the whole way? What would you two advise? 

 15:10
Kristi Taylor
I don't think so. I don't know. I don't want to live my life waiting for the worst thing to happen. I mean, I don't want to every time I sit down to eat, think I'm going to get food poisoning or get in your car and today's the day I'm going to get in a wreck. It's possible. It's probably going to happen, but it I don't want to live my life like that. Pregnancy is an exciting thing and I think you should be excited for it, and I think that have a positive attitude about it. If it doesn't work, I mean, ice cream again, is always helpful. Put some plugs in and see if we get endorsed. I think it's always good to choose happiness, but also to give yourself grace for whatever emotion does come your way. 

 15:54
Jared Taylor
I agree. The same way she uses some of the same references we use. Car accidents happen all the time. Bad things happen. In reality, if you're a couple that's coming to NEDC or that you're looking at adoption, you've probably been on a pretty rough road anyway. Adoption is not usually anybody's first choice. You always want to twerk, and luckily we had three biological kids, but then weren't able to have anymore, and we just felt prompted that adoption was part of it, and so that's why we just felt that we should continue to look, you can never know something if you don't go for it. If you've been put on the path to even explore the NEDC, there's probably some powers behind it, and it's not something you should go in just thinking it's going to be a perfect road. I'm sure you guys have success stories that they come in, they have their first initial consult, everything looks great, they come back for the next visit. 

 16:51
Jared Taylor
It works. Their kids are born perfectly at 40 weeks and there's not any complications. That's just not how life works the majority of the time. If you're on the front of it, go for it. The worst that can happen is not the worst thing ever. Everything's overcomeable. 

 17:16
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. Well said. How has going through embryo adoption affected your relationships with each other, your kids and family and your faith? 

 17:29
Kristi Taylor
Well, I actually had fun going to Tennessee with just Jared. It was like our little kid free vacations. We talk about the different places we used to go eat, and that was fun. I think that it helped our kids that hard things happen to everybody, so I think that they've grown a lot. I mean, they were just a little when were doing all these different things, and I think it helps them have compassion for other people when they're having hard things happen to them because they realize, oh, yeah, it does happen, but we can get through it. I'm still waiting on my book club chat with God. I think there are some parts that are really good and some parts that I just don't even address yet. There how is your relationship? 

 18:16
Jared Taylor
I think it took us to a different level that we had to be to. It was it was a blast. I mean, why in Knoxville? Make sure you go to Calhouns. The best Blazer are everything in the. 

 18:30
Mark Mellinger
USA says it right on the sign. 

 18:33
Jared Taylor
Yes. It was great, and we loved it. We kind of had our little routine that we got into. Unfortunately, we did have to go four times. And we had talked to Dr. King, and we probably could have done some things to have one more shot, but it just didn't feel like it was the right thing for us to do at that point. It pushed our relationship to different limits, and it makes it so that other things that come up in normal day to day sure are miniscule compared to some of the stresses that went through with that. We've now ultimately we end up getting into foster care. We adopted two little boys, and I think it's made us appreciate those. 

 19:19
Mark Mellinger
Kids just more, talk about that journey. I mean, that's where I wanted to end it. I think that's what everybody who's listening to this is going to wonder. Was your family building journey totally over after being done with embryo adoption? You're saying no, were still about helping the most vulnerable we're going into the foster care system. 

 19:42
Kristi Taylor
Well, I was ready to call it quits, but no, we keep going. We renewed our home city again, and we had with another agency, and we had all the whole mess of situations with traditional adoption. Probably seven months later, I was telling Jared, I was like, let's just look into foster care. I don't want to adopt from foster care, but we have a lot to offer, and our kids had a lot to offer. We got certified really quickly, and we started getting all these phone calls from case workers. Jared and I looked at each other like, what are we doing? This is really heavy stuff. 

 20:21
Jared Taylor
Including we had a traditional adoption that fell through, too, that were actually on our way to the airport. The difficult part about traditional adoption is, like I had said earlier, it's a business. On our way, we got a phone call that the birth mom's mom had gotten involved and she wanted money. She didn't care about anything else, and she put a demand out for some money. We turned around and came back home and walked away from it. About two weeks later, were matched with two little boys that we ultimately ended up adopting. Now, granted, as Christie had said, when we started embryo adoption, it took me a long time to get on board. This time she told me, hey, we should try foster care. I was a quick, hard no because we had pretty well told God that were done. We had come to the limits. 

 21:18
Jared Taylor
We couldn't take the stress with our kids. Our youngest, I think, was five when we started all this, or four. Our oldest was seven or eight. I was a pretty well set no. We prayed about it and we told him, no, this is not it. He very clearly answered back that were to do something and I think were one of the fastest approvals in the state for foster care. And it went very quick. 

 21:46
Kristi Taylor
These little boys were looking for their home too. The funny thing about it is they look exactly like Jared. The ones that I bear look like Jared. The ones that we adopt look like Jared. His genes are very strong in this place. Now we have five kids and I drive a Suburban and there's no more. It's sweet. 

 22:07
Mark Mellinger
How old were your foster adopted children when you adopted them? How old is everybody now in the family? 

 22:16
Kristi Taylor
So we've had them for a year. Our oldest daughter, she's eleven and a half. We have a nine year old and a seven year old. 

 22:24
Jared Taylor
Yes. 

 22:25
Kristi Taylor
The ones we just adopted, our older one just turned five and then the baby is a year and a half. 

 22:31
Mark Mellinger
Oh wow. Still a baby in the house as well. 

 22:35
Kristi Taylor
Crazy. Yes. 

 22:36
Mark Mellinger
Wow. Yeah. One and a half to nine and a half. That's a great joyous home of seven and five of them kids. 

 22:44
Jared Taylor
That's awesome. 

 22:44
Mark Mellinger
Now is your family building journey done or do ? 

 22:49
Kristi Taylor
I mean our friends, our foster friends joke with us that I could drive like a twelve passenger van and I probably could but I don't think I want to. Also knowing us, I mean we can't ever say this is how it's going to go because then somebody just laughs and says, no it's not. I just tread lightly with what we say is going to happen in the future. Our daughter has four brothers and she really wants a sister. That's nice. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. I feel so old and so tired and so happy and we have five kids and we've reset to a baby again and so I think that I don't know what the future is. I'm sure it'll be good. I'm sure it'll be busy and messy. 

 23:41
Jared Taylor
One thing in our life is we've never set specific locked in goals. We have our ultimate goals. Obviously we plan to be married for time and for all eternity. We want our family to be healthy but we don't ever lock in. This is the only way it's going to go for us. That's how were able to come upon the NADC is because we've kept our life flexible and open. That's how we've also adopted these two kids out of foster care because we've allowed ourselves to stay instruments in God's hands. Because the minute you start saying yes or no when we first got married and we start talking about how many kids do we want? I came from a family of four. Christie's a family of five. For a while three kids looked really great. A few late nights lately with a baby screaming a lot. 

 24:30
Jared Taylor
Three kids really seemed like a really good idea. Again, I would say our kids are well traveled. They've flown a ton, in fact. It's unfortunate, but all three of our kids actually are Medallion members on Delta because we like to travel so much. Now we've got two extra kids that it's. More work, but it's been great. We talk about all the time, if we only had 3, may would do this, but at the same time, then when I came home to prepare for this tonight or today, our five year old came and jumps in your arms and just gives you a daddy. I love you so much. It just puts you into, this is what we're supposed to do. If somebody's sitting out there on the fence and NEDC wasn't in your plans, go for it. 

 25:20
Mark Mellinger
It's priceless. Well, I love that. Your happy ending, it may not have come with us, but it did come. You have your children that you're supposed to have asterisk maybe more. But happy ending for now. And I love that. Again, I'm so thankful to you too, for sharing this hard part of your journey. It's going to help so many people. We also want to thank all of you for listening. If you want to find out more about the National Embryo Donation Center, just go to our website. It's embryodonation.org. Embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger, and this has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

Embryo adoption mom Savannah Hansen once thought writing books was a childhood dream she’d just forget about. Then she saw the need for more children’s books to serve the adoption and embryo adoption communities. So she started, as they said in the old days, putting pen to paper. (Digital keystrokes to a phone app just doesn’t have the same ring, does it?) The result: Two children’s books you need to know about. Learn all about them as Savannah joins us for this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. 

Rate, review, and subscribe to The Embryo Adoption Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.....    

FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note transcription is done by AI. There may be some spelling, grammar, and other errors.):


 00:01
Mark Mellinger
Embryo adoption touched her life so much, she has decided to help others by writing a couple of books about embryo adoption. I'm talking about Savannah Hansen. She's a national embryo donation center, mom. She is my guest today on the embryo adoption podcast. I'm your host, Mark Mellinger. The embryo adoption podcast is brought to you by the National Embryo Donation Center. You can find out more about us at embryodonation.org. Savannah, let's start by describing your own embryo adoption journey with the NEDC. 

 00:34
Savannah Hansen
Of course. My husband and I got married in 2015, and like everybody else, we just thought that it was going to be so easy and were going to have a family and it was going to be a breed. That did not happen. And I was 18 at the time. My husband was 19. Were young and thought that, of course you're going to have a big family, until the doctors told us we would never have biological children, which was a hard pill to swallow. I had actually found the NEVC a few years before we ever contacted you guys, because were still pursuing fertility treatment and trying everything under the sun to get there, until we really just felt God shut that door and say, no, this is what I want for you. We did, and it went very quickly. It was amazing. It was so fast. 

 01:35
Savannah Hansen
Before we knew it, we had adopted eight precious embryos and had our first transfer, and I was pregnant with my precious little babies. From there, it's just been a wild ride. We've had a few transfers. I'm pregnant with baby number two now, so it's been the best thing that we could have ever done. It's been amazing. 

 02:03
Mark Mellinger
Now, do you mind talking about Declan your first NADC baby? 

 02:10
Savannah Hansen
Of course. Declan is the best baby I've just ever experienced, ever been around. Of course, I am partial, of course, but everyone says it because he's the sweetest, most caring, gentle soul that he wants everyone to be included. He checks on you if anyone's crying. He'll run up to you and touch your face and say, Are you okay? And he's just the sweetest thing. We have been so blessed. We know that God really directed us in terms of the donor family and who were meant to choose. We have an open adoption with them, and it is beautiful, and I love them to pieces, but he has just been such a blessing to us, to them. It was everything we could have ever imagined and more. He's the light of our lives and our entire church. Call him the church's baby. Like, we can't claim him. 

 03:05
Savannah Hansen
He's everybody's baby. They're like, no, give me my baby. So he's two now. He'll be three in December. It was so fast, the blink of an eye, that he is just the best. 

 03:20
Mark Mellinger
He's going to be a great big brother, and I'm sure he's looking forward to that. Does he sort of get it? 

 03:26
Savannah Hansen
Oh, he gets it. He talks about the baby in my belly every day and asks for the baby to come out of my belly so that way baby can be home with us and in the car with us and everywhere with us. And he shares his water. He'll run up with his water and put it on my belly, and he goes, Baby, drink water. And I'm like that's, right? Baby needs water. Even Sonograms and everything, he'll look at the screen and he goes, Baby swimming in the water. I was like, yes, baby, the baby is in the water. He's so excited. He can't wait. 

 04:02
Mark Mellinger
This is just going to be great. I love it. Before we talk about each book individually, let's just start with the concept. Like when and why did you decide you wanted to write children's books on this? 

 04:18
Savannah Hansen
The dream itself to ever even write a children's book started back when I was a child, actually, that was something that I had already held dear to me. I love to write, but that's something as a child, you think, okay, well, that's a dream that we'll just forget about and it won't go anywhere. While facing all of the years of infertility and going through that and just knowing how isolating it was and seeing all of the other couples and young women in the clinics who were clearly facing so much emotional distress and in there and didn't want to talk to anybody because of the shame and didn't want to do all these things, I was like, man, we need more resources in this area. When we found NEDC and went through that process and just looking to see, okay, what are all of these resources? 

 05:18
Savannah Hansen
Because we chose open adoption, and we want it to always be something that our children know, and we want them to understand the concept in a way that makes sense to them, so that way as they grow, they can ask more questions. And there weren't many. You guys provide the resources of some books that other parents have written, and that was a huge thing. I bought all of them immediately, but I just knew that it was still something that was so nobody's talked about. Even, what a blessing to have Declan in the world, because it opens up so many conversations and I tell everybody about his story and so many people don't know about it. It was really then that I was like, no, something needs to change. There are so many babies waiting to have a chance to live this life, and people should know about it, because I've talked to so many people who had faced infertility years and years prior, and they said, I wish that I would have known about this option. 

 06:20
Savannah Hansen
I would have chosen that. Now I have no children. I didn't get to experience any of that. It's so devastating to me because it's such a beautiful option. I knew that for my children, I wanted to have more resources. I still kind of put it on the back burner, was like, I'm just being a mom and living the life that I've always wanted, and this is just so amazing. Until one night, God would not let me sleep and kept giving me the title of these books. I'm like, okay, God, I get it. I'm going to go to bed now. And he was like, no, you're not. I rolled over, and I was like, okay, let me just get out my phone. Just the notes app on the phone. I'll type what you tell me to type, and then I'll go to bed. It was a good 15 minutes later. 

 07:12
Savannah Hansen
It happened two nights in a row with each book and 15 minutes. 15 minutes. A week and a half later, I was published. It was insane. It was insane. 

 07:25
Mark Mellinger
That's crazy. 

 07:27
Savannah Hansen
Yes. That's why I'm like, what, God? You have a purpose for these books. Even if it just touches one family, that's worth it. It's fine. 

 07:38
Mark Mellinger
Amen. 

 07:39
Savannah Hansen
Amen. 

 07:39
Mark Mellinger
By the way, both books, and we'll get to them here in a second, both are available on the NEDC website. At least we have links to both of them. If you go to our books section, we have five books on there, and Savannahs are two of them. They're called the greatest gift and the miracle of you. I can tell you, Savannah, that our ladies in the back. That's how I refer to them, ladies in the back. That means nothing to anybody. Our patient coordination team looked at one of the books, The Miracle of you, and they were crying at the end of it. You have already touched some people, and we've reviewed these books. We love them. I want you to go through and just describe each of them, the Greatest Gift and The Miracle of you. Why don't you start with the greatest gift? 

 08:31
Savannah Hansen
Okay, perfect. The Greatest Gift is definitely the story specifically geared for embryo adoption or adoption in any way, honestly. Specifically, I wanted to make sure that parents could read it to their children and children could identify like, oh, my goodness, this is like my story, and this is how you tell me I came about. Over time, as you grasp deeper understanding and they can ask more questions of, okay, well, what does this symbolize? The Greatest Gift is about a carrot couple, and they want to start a garden and grow some carrots because, of course, why wouldn't you? They're the best, and they have some trouble, but their friends across the way do not. They find theirselves on this journey of embryo adoption, and they adopt these precious little carrots who come about. It is a celebration of families grown in ways that are nontraditional but beautiful and specifically designed the way that they're meant to be. 

 09:45
Savannah Hansen
But, yeah, it's pretty simple. It's sweet, it's for your little ones, but it's definitely from the heart. 

 09:54
Mark Mellinger
The Miracle of you is more of a people book in the sense that the character in it is not a vegetable. The character in it is an actual human being. And that's what the pictures look like. Describe that book. 

 10:09
Savannah Hansen
The Miracle of You, I wanted it to be something that I imagined. The next morning, after I read it in the notes app on my phone, I read it and I just thought, I would read this to my son. I would read this to Declan at night or in the morning or before a nap or whenever. I would read this to him. I just thought, wow, what a good way to show your children how deeply you've desired them and how wanted they are and how loved they are in society. I feel like people lose that perspective a lot of the time, and so many people do feel unwanted or do feel like, man, this isn't the life that I should have had. I wanted it to always come for parents to be able to have the opportunity to tell their children no, even if they never faced infertility, even if they didn't wait years upon years to have these children in their arms, but if they have desired and wanted them and loved them since before they even existed. 

 11:13
Savannah Hansen
I wanted children to understand that from a young age, even if that was you start reading this to your infants, and then later on it's like, oh, my goodness, I read this to you every night when you were three months old, and you just stared at me because you couldn't do anything else. It is just a celebration of that beautiful life that is here, and letting them know that regardless however they came about, whether it was easy, whether it was hard, whether it was years, whether it wasn't that they are loved and wanted. I wanted to make sure that when I saw it, I could identify my son in it. When I hired the illustrator, I was like, listen, these are some reference pictures, but I don't want it to be exactly my son. I was like, I want it to be anybody could see their kid. 

 12:10
Savannah Hansen
But, yeah, I just wanted it to be a resource for parents to be able to reach their kids and say, hey, I love you and I cherish you, and you are not only answered prayer, and for some people, they don't live that life and they don't believe the way that we believe. I guarantee you, their children are precious to them, just like ours are to us. I wanted it to be able to be that for people. 

 12:37
Mark Mellinger
And it is, and you're absolutely right. You do not have to have gone through embryo adoption or even infertility at all for that book to be a really salient one that's going to resonate with parents and kids. I want you to unpack the process of putting these books together because you said it happened really quickly. I just think this would be an interesting process to learn about. Unpack it from okay, you talked about the writing. You basically wrote it in your notes app on your phone, which is awesome that you can do that these days. Take me from that point to finding an illustrator to finding a publisher. What was that like? 

 13:19
Savannah Hansen
Right? I wrote the books in the notes app, and you think, oh, it was late at night. It's probably garbage. I'll look over it in the morning, and I remember reading them and just thinking to myself, okay, well, I would read that to my son. I just sent it to my family without any context, I just sent it to them, and they messaged me back. They were actually coming to North Carolina within a few months for my son's first birthday. So they're like, oh, that's really nice. Where did you find that? Are you going to read that at the birthday party or something? I was like, oh, no, I wrote it. It was like, well, wait a minute. You wrote it? And I'm like, yes, I did. I realized, I was like, okay, well, somebody else could believe in this too. Okay, we'll see. I just kind of left him, and I was like, all right. 

 14:23
Savannah Hansen
A week later, I told my husband. I was like, Listen, what do you think about this? If I just reach out if I find a publisher, that I feel like, hey, I'm meant to go this route or with them. I'll look at some what do you feel about us pursuing this? And he was like, absolutely. Do it. Make the call. Do whatever you need to do, because this is great. This will be a great option. I called, and I got into contact with Christian Faith Publishing. The lady was so sweet, and she was like, yeah, just send me them. Of course, it was very rough draft. I was like, of course, yeah. I'll type them up on my computer really fast and kind of tell you what I would assume or like the images to be or what I envisioned in my mind. I typed it all out, and I sent them to her that day, and she called me back, and she said, we want both of them. 

 15:22
Savannah Hansen
I was floored because I'm preparing myself for the okay, honey, no. I'm like, oh, wait, are you sure? Do you have the right person? Are you meant to be calling me? My name is Savannah. Yes, honey, we want both. And so it was such a whirlwind. It was crazy. But we started right away. We just jumped right into it. I remember for the greatest gift, I was going to use their illustrators because of the style of book that it was. I really wanted it to be something that you could identify and a kid could look at and be like, I want the carrot book. I wanted it to be something that would draw their attention for the miracle of you. I wanted something very specific, and I wanted the artwork to be nostalgic in a way that I was read books from my grandma and the style of art that isn't seen anymore today. 

 16:26
Savannah Hansen
I wanted that desperately, because those are the books that I reach for, that I grab, and I'm like, oh, this is beautiful. Oh, I'm going to have this for my kids. I actually downloaded a few apps and went online and went to go look for people who were advertising their services in artwork and all these other things. I found this beautiful young lady named Elena from Russia. I messaged her, and all she had on her profile was actually animals. She did a lot of nature drawings and paintings and everything, but I could see the style in there. I messaged her, and I said, hey, this is something that I'm wanting to do. Have you ever drawn people before? No. The answer was no, she had not. I kind of explained to her what I wanted, and she was like, okay, well, let me try it, and I'll get back to you in a few days. 

 17:32
Savannah Hansen
Of course she sent me a message back, and immediately I knew that it had to be her, because it was exactly I immediately was like, I want to reach, and I want to grab that picture, and I want to keep it, and I want to have it. I went through the process with her of telling her every page what I wanted the details of, okay? I want their eye color to be this. I want their hair color to be this. I want on this page different hair colors, different eye colors, because they don't know what their kid is going to look like. That's the beauty of adoption and just all of these things. She was so sweet and so wonderful to work with. At the end of it, I paid her, and she gave me all of the files and talked about a God moment too, because it was right before everything happened with Ukraine. 

 18:27
Savannah Hansen
And so they shut everything down. They canceled all of their profiles, and so I got all of the illustrations a week before that happened, I think, and I wouldn't have been able to get it otherwise. 

 18:40
Mark Mellinger
Just in time. Wow. 

 18:43
Savannah Hansen
Just in time. It was like that throughout the entire process. Just like our process going through the NADC, everything was so god, everything. It's nice to look back and just see. I'm like, okay. God, thank you. Thank you for your hand in that. 

 19:00
Mark Mellinger
Yeah, well, she did a great job. The pictures are captivating and you're right, as I think about it is drawn in more of that older style and those things do stick with you. So this is important. I mean, I'm quite a bit older than you are and I can still remember decades ago the books that my parents, some of them read to me when I was just a little kid, Declan's age, like Goodnight Moon and the Mother Goose stuff and the arch Christian books. I mean, I'm 47 years old and I can still remember how formative and important those were. They have really good memories attached to them. It's great that you're involved now in doing such work that's going to have significant impact and resonance throughout people's lives that's really so meaningful. Savannah so I'm glad you've done this. It's awesome. What have the responses to the books been like so far? 

 20:02
Savannah Hansen
Oh, it's been wonderful. I just went to California, where all of my family is for a month, and I had a woman come up to me who goes to my mother's church, and she has a ton of children mindy, most of whom were adopted, not embryo adoption in any way. I just remember her coming up to me and crying. Of course then I start crying because that's all I wanted for these books. She just said, I'm so excited because I have something to read to my babies that not only says how beautiful our family is in the way that it has been created, but how loved they are, not only by us, but by God, and that they were placed here for a reason. Because I think that can be hard when there's been difficulties in life. She said to have it from the perspective of our faith and knowing that they are precious and they are wonderful, but being able to tell them that in ways that they understand and they can see and they're like, oh, okay, well, those carrots. 

 21:17
Savannah Hansen
The Carrots had a family that came together differently, but it's okay because they're beautiful and they love each other and it works out. Now I guess her kids asked for the Carrot book, which is so heartwarming to me, but it's been so beautiful. I've had so many people who have been so supportive and immediately just will be like, oh, I got my copy, or oh, I got this, and it's beautiful, and I cried. It gives people perspective as well, and more compassion in areas that they don't quite understand. I think that's important, as well as people, family members, friends that walk along, couples who face a life like this. It helps to bring that perspective of, oh, I wouldn't have ever guessed that this is how or what it might be like. It helps bring that to adults as well. 

 22:21
Mark Mellinger
And do you read them to Declan? 

 22:24
Savannah Hansen
Oh, yes, of course. Yeah, he absolutely loves books. He is a reader. We have books all over the house. He has a ridiculous amount. But, yes, I read them to him. I love it because every time he sees The Miracle of you, he'll point, he goes, oh, Declan. Yes, baby. He'll look and he'll point, he goes, you. I'm like yes, baby, you. He loves it. 

 22:55
Mark Mellinger
That is just great. I absolutely love it. Yeah, it's true what they say. There's no friend as loyal as a good book. You're doing a good work in raising a reader there. The books again are called the greatest gift. And the miracle of you. You can get them at Amazon, basically anywhere that sells books online. Again, you can go to EmbryoDonation.org. That's the NEDC's website. Just click on the book section and you'll see them there. We have links where you can buy them, so I think you'll really enjoy them. It's a great resource for embryo adoption parents or just any parents. Again, it's the greatest gift and the miracle of you by Savannah Hansen, who has been my guest. It has been a delight to talk with you, Savannah. Thank you so much for what you're doing. 

 23:46
Savannah Hansen
Thank you so much for having me and for all you do. 

 23:50
Mark Mellinger
You bet. We continue to pray for a safe, healthy conclusion to your pregnancy. We can't wait to see pictures of the new baby. This has been the embryo adoption podcast. Again, more information at embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger. We look forward to talking with you next time. 

Perry & Sydney went from being told to stop their medications (i.e.: their pregnancy was over)… to holding their miracle daughter. Their journey in between, virtually the whole time, was filled with anxiety. Hear how deeply they were shaped by infertility, and learn from what they did as they struggled to find contentment and a sense of certainty, in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

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Life throws us curve balls. For Jay and Elizabeth, the result was a family-building journey that showcases God’s variety and God’s provision. From a biological child to an embryo adoption baby, their story has it all (including how they adopted without debt!). It’s our prayer that this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast will leave you -like them- recounting the goodness of God. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

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Madison got pancreatitis (twice!) and COVID while she was pregnant with Pia & Judah, her embryo adoption twins. That, combined with extended NICU stays for each baby, made Madison & Toby’s road to parenthood a taxing one. But they’d do it all again to experience the deep parental love consuming them now. Gain valuable insights from their story, from a case of nerves on the day of their frozen embryo transfer to what it was like carrying multiples, in this episode. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

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Secondary infertility sent Arleta into the throes of depression, which sent her to YouTube, of all places. And through that, God led her & Owen to double blessings. How fitting that they arrived on Thanksgiving! (“Two turkeys,” their older son jokes.:)) They’re telling their story in this episode. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

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God opened Graham and Libby’s door to parenthood through the prayers of their foster child, and the work of a family concerned with saving a vulnerable young life. From there, the story only gets wilder… and more beautiful. God has walked them through a child’s cerebral palsy diagnosis, embryo adoption, and building a close relationship with their NEDC donor family. Along the way, He’s refined Graham and Libby, and helped them see His goodness in the hardest moments. Let their story speak to your soul. It’s our debut episode for Season Three of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

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“It’s not like God’s just going to drop a check in our lap,” Naomi thought. Then, actually, He did, through some generous friends who -as they handed them the check- told her and Michael, “This is for you to one day hold a baby in your arms.” We’re wrapping up Season Two of The Embryo Adoption Podcast with Michael and Naomi’s encouraging story of the special gift that enabled them to pursue embryo adoption (and now has them holding not just one, but TWO baby boys in their arms!). So much good, insightful stuff here. Some helpful time stamps are below.

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:40 How their story started when they were little kids, even continuing through Michael’s family's long time away doing missionary work in Turkey

4:14 When they encountered infertility and learned about embryo adoption

8:30  How a generous, unexpected gift from friends enabled them to pursue embryo adoption

10:20  Michael and Naomi’s response to the gift

15:00 How they saw embryo adoption as a ministry, and how plugging into the NEDC brought them into a story bigger than themselves

17:00 What most stood out about their experience with the NEDC

20:00 Their advice for future couples going through the NEDC embryo adoption program

23:20 How they gave birth to twin boys from two different donors originating from the same embryo transfer

24:25 What pregnancy was like and how their sons have changed their lives

28:00 How they chose the boys’ names and what they mean

31:00 How they’ll talk to their sons about embryo adoption