In this episode, John Oberg interviews Jonathan Balcombe, an acclaimed ethologist and author of 'What a Fish Knows'. 

Jonathan shares his insights on the emotional and social lives of fish, challenging common misconceptions. He highlights the joy and suffering of fish, especially in the context of factory farming and aquaculture. 

The discussion covers the significance of empathy towards fish, the implications of scientific findings, and the importance of raising public awareness to foster better treatment of aquatic animals. Jonathan also shares personal experiences and anecdotes, emphasizing the need for informed choices to promote animal welfare.