The Exit Interview: A Podcast for Black Educators

Michael Diaz-Rivera was a brilliant and respected teacher with a reputation for empowering and inspiring his Black and Latinx students. He rose quickly to prominence for his unapologetic radical love for his community and our children. A frequent advocate and organizer for his professional association, school, and district, Michael was featured in local stories across the city for his tireless advocacy and sacrifice for his communities.

Things went south, as they often do for Black educators. His outspoken nature landed him under thee microscope and he found his former allies turning from him. He departed teaching this summer. The classic Lauryn Hill lyric ya might win some, but ya just lost one springs to mind.

Michael will be okay. Maybe even better. But will we?

Asia and Kevins interview with Dr. William Smith of the University of Utah was so saturated with wisdom that we brought him back for a part II!

In this conversation, Dr. Smith shares his wisdom, doing a deep-dive into Racial Battle Fatigue. He discusses a litany of topics, including his rebuttal of the notion that Racial Battle Fatigue is analogous to post-traumatic stress disorder and the various manifestations of RBF, behavioral, psychological and physiological. He reveals that addressing racism as it is experienced by Black educators and their communities requires an honest look back over centuries, as opposed to reading a book or having a community circle in professional development.

Get out your notebooks; Dr. Smith is going to take you to school with this one.

Equity is the goal for nearly every diverse school district in the country. As the ripple effects of generational trauma and systemic oppression continue to be felt in communities of color, especially Black and Brown communities, districts like the Denver Public Schools have created positions and offices of equity, inclusion, or both.

Dr. Darlene Sampson, equity specialist coordinator at the Western Educational Equity Assistance Center and a clinical field faculty in the Department of Social Work at Metropolitan State University of Denver, was once the director of Culturally Responsive Education in Denver Public Schools, bringing with her three decades of experience to a vitally important office, especially as the district sought to end generational inequity and trauma within the school system. In 2006 she stepped into the position, confident and excited to begin the work that not only was she was she passionate about, she had lived it, growing up in Pueblo, Colorado where there were not that many of us.

Soon, she discovered that her employer was not prepared to do the work. They were not ready for her greatness, which is to say that they did not establish the conditions under which true Culturally Responsive Education could grow. Instead of building a space for liberation, she describes her daily work as a battle ground, and even finds the term Racial Battle Fatigue to fall short in describing what she experienced. It was a plantation experience.

Today, Dr. Sampson shares with us her experiences fighting the good fight, the correct fight, and the work in which she is currently engaged. She harbors no ill will; she simply realizes that her employers were simply not prepared for what Culturally Responsive work required.

This is a real special episode of the Exit Interview! Asia and Kevin talk with Dr. William A. Smith, professor of Education and Ethnic Studies at the University of Utah. Dr. Smith, who developed some of the most profound research around the concept of Racial Battle Fatigue, shares his research, insights and experiences tracking this phenomenon.

In this profound and wide-ranging conversation, Dr. Smith discusses a veritable library of topics, so many that we decided to expand this conversation to two parts (Part II will be out this summerstay tuned!). He shares his perspectives on the positioning of school leaders and teachers in regard to revolutionary action. He shares his thoughts on Black representation in film as a pacifying force. He names the genocidal actions taken against Black people both past and present.

Throughout this conversation with this next level scholar, the learning is strong, the struggle In contextualized, and the inspiration is total. Tune in!

Welcome to Episode 4 of the Exit Interview with Asia Lyons and Kevin Adams!

This week we hear Shalelia Dillard share her story. It is a similar refrain for Black educators who have experienced institutional alienation and rejection within the education system. We invite you to listen and take in her story of optimism, belief in schooling as an equalizer and in her own brilliance and talents to provide a quality education for children generally, only to see her confidence and professionalism come under attack by the same forces that permeate our system.

But, as we have seen during the life of this podcast, the process has been liberatory while still painful. Shalelia has discovered that most dangerous of discoveries: that it is possible to continue to be an educator without teaching in a school. She shares her inspirational path and reminds us of what it means to be not an industry artist, but an artist in the industry.

Being a Black educator in the American system of schooling will test the faith of the strongest. In this powerful episode, Doctoral candidate Donna Druery (who has her defense the day after this episode!) shares the long journey through education that ultimately ended with her departure. She shares upsetting experiences, ranging from the hostile to the absurd. An excellent educator once highly recruited and touted as exceptional in her context, she experienced what so many Black educators experience. Her professionalism was not simply questioned, but outright attacked. She was the subject of gossip among White teachers. For over a decade she found herself in a textbook abusive relationship with her job. At times, she felt that we were turning a corner only to find herself attacked again.

Listeners will find resonance with Donnas story. The constant strategizing simply to be heard in her community the physical manifestations of her racial battle trauma.

Through it all Donnas faith carried her to a degree that is jarring and powerful. Dont miss this episode of the Exit Interview!

Analise Harris embodies Black genius, Black ingenuity, and a resilience. Always socially conscious and connected to her community, Analise entered the education system through alternative means after studying sociology in college. Having worked with the NAACP and other advocacy organizations, we in education were bless to have her join our ranks and work with children every day. She was impactful immediately and beloved by her students and parent community.

Then, as occurs so often with Black women teachers, things went south. The gossip. The microaggressions that became outright hostility. In a wrenching conversation that lays bare the pain shouldered by Black women educators, Analise shares in stark and unapologetic detail her harrowing journey from star teacher to persona non grata. Even today, she expresses bewilderment at the ways in which she was treated, as she re-lives the trauma of being run out of the classroom.

But she never wavered in her commitment, her goals, and her certainty that she was doing right by her students. Listen as she turns her pain and struggle into one of the most exciting STEAM programs in the area. She now looks to corner the market that schools simply refuse to see. This is a powerful, painful, but ultimately inspirational story of healing and creative genius.

Do not miss this one!

The Exit Interview premiers with the story of Sataira Douglas.

When she came into the teaching game, Sataira was a highly regarded rising star in teaching. In a profession that struggles to recruit, let alone retain, Black teachers, Sataira was sought after by multiple school districts.

The situation decayed quickly. Microaggressions and macroaggressions. Gaslighting. Frozen out by colleagues. Rumors. Blamed for colleagues health problems. Invisible labor. The stress on family and community members who watched her struggle and still hold her head high. Belittled publicly in front of colleagues.

And still, Sataira came to work. Told herself it could be worse. Worried what would happen to her students if she left. Staying for a community of parents and children that she felt a bond with. Hold your head down. Just do your job.

And yet, I knew I was going to quit by October.

But through the pain and professional harm done to her, Sataira found a way to rise. To discover her power. To learn exactly how much was too much.