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In this episode, hosts Paul Barnhurst and Glenn Hopper discuss the realities behind the AI hype cycle and how it's playing out in finance, from inflated ROI expectations to unscalable AI tools and organizational chaos, Paul and Glenn unpack what’s working, what’s failing, and why so many companies are stuck. With no guest this week, the duo shares their honest takes on the state of AI, its practical limits in financial workflows, and how companies are fumbling both bottom-up adoption and top-down implementation. This one’s a mix of hot takes, technical insight, and just enough despair to keep things real.
In this episode, you will discover:
AI isn’t a magic solution; it’s a powerful tool that still depends on good data, realistic goals, and a bit of patience. Paul and Glenn make it clear that while the hype is loud, real progress takes thoughtful implementation and education. The future of AI in finance looks promising, but only for teams willing to do the work.
Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:
Follow Glenn:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii
Follow Paul:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Follow QFlow.AI:
Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg
Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.
Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.
In Today’s Episode:
[01:56] - AI Hype Cycle Meltdown
[04:50] - AI Tools in Excel
[07:33] - Bottom-Up vs Top-Down Adoption
[11:33] - Why AI Projects Fail
[14:38] - Change Management Gaps
[17:23] - Context Window Limitations
[20:30] - Learn the Basics of AI
[23:11] - Oracle, Nvidia & OpenAI Deals
[30:07] - Microsoft Adds Anthropic to Copilot
[34:24] - Copilot Improvement & Wrap-Up
In this episode of Financial Modeler’s Corner, host Paul Barnhurst speaks with financial modeling expert Scott Strachan about the role of financial models in business planning and decision-making. Scott shares lessons from over 30 years of experience in accounting, consulting, private equity, and corporate finance. The discussion covers the importance of modeling for startups, the problems with annual models, the risks of overrelying on EBITDA, and how the FMI certification has helped him stay sharp in a changing industry.
Scott Strachan is a Chartered Accountant and Chartered Financial Modeler who has worked across the UK, the Arabian Gulf, and now serves clients in Qatar and London. He has built and reviewed complex financial models for deals worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and now contributes to the Financial Modeling Institute as a content developer and exam writer. Scott is known for applying practical thinking to modeling and helping bridge the gap between theory and real-world execution.
Expect to Learn
Here are a few quotes from the episode:
Follow Scott:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-strachan-ca-a795851a4/?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app
Follow Paul:
Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@thefpandaguy
Follow Financial Modeler's Corner:
LinkedIn Page- https://www.linkedin.com/company/financial-modeler-s-corner/?viewAsMember=true
Newsletter - Subscribe on LinkedIn -https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7079020077076905984
Sign up for the Advanced Financial Modeler Accreditation Today and receive 15% off by using the special show code ‘Podcast’.
Visit https://bit.ly/497oAqW and use the code “Podcast” to save 15% when you register.
In today’s episode:
[01:20] - Scott’s Background & Career in Modeling
[06:26] - Why Annual Models Often Fall Short
[09:11] - Why Startups Need Monthly Models
[13:54] - Working Capital Mistakes in Startups
[17:59] - Disposable vs. Ongoing Models
[26:37] - Thoughts on EBITDA and Adjusted EBITDA
[33:31] - Why Models Don’t Replace Business Fundamentals
[40:25] - Excel Shortcuts and Modeling Habits
[42:43] - Rapid Fire: Modeling Preferences
[45:58] - Final Advice & How to Reach Scott
In this episode of FP&A Tomorrow, host Paul Barnhurst and co-host Glenn Snyder discuss the dynamic intersection of private equity and financial planning & analysis (FP&A). With private equity firms increasingly focused on operational value creation over financial engineering, this discussion offers valuable insights into the evolving expectations for FP&A teams within PE-backed companies. The conversation covers everything from deal flow trends and building high-performing FP&A functions to the nuances of trust, alignment, and data in the PE environment.
Nate is a Senior Managing Director at Riveron Consulting, where he leads the private equity practice. With extensive experience supporting portfolio companies, Nate brings a sharp understanding of how to structure FP&A functions that drive value from early investment to exit. Jamie is Director of Financial Operations at Trivest Partners, a middle-market private equity fund. Jamie works closely with FP&A teams across Trivest’s portfolio, guiding companies through growth, transformation, and exit, with a clear focus on data-driven decision-making and operational excellence.
Expect to Learn:
Here are a few quotes from the episode:
Nate and Jamie shared thoughtful and practical insights into the evolving relationship between private equity and FP&A. They emphasized the growing importance of operational value creation, the foundational role of trust and alignment, and the need for robust data infrastructure to support strategic decision-making.
Get Certified with the FPAC Credential
Earn the only FP&A credential that proves your expertise and commitment to the profession.
Use TheFPAGuy-FPAC for $150 off the Exam
Use TheFPAGuy-FPACEPP for $100 off the Exam Prep Platform
Learn more: https://www.thefpandaguy.com/fpa-certifications
AFP FP&A Forum: All insights. Zero spin.
March 23 – 25 in Indianapolis
This immersive, three-day event is built for financial professionals, by financial professionals, and it’s designed to help you sharpen your skills, stay on top of trends, and connect with peers who understand your challenges.
Learn more: https://www.financialprofessionals.org/events/meetings/afp-fp-a-forum
Follow FP&A Tomorrow:
Newsletter - Subscribe on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=6957679529595162624
Follow Nate:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nate-heeren-91a1644/
Website - https://riveron.com/
Follow Jamie:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-lukaszewski-b1766119/
Website - https://www.trivest.com/team/
Follow Glenn:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/glenntsnyder/
Website - https://onemomentintimenovel.com/
Follow Paul:
Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Earn Your CPE Credit
For CPE credit, please go to earmarkcpe.com, listen to the episode, download the app, answer a few questions, and earn your CPE certification. To earn education credits for the FP&A Certificate, take the quiz on Earmark and contact Paul Barnhurst for further details.
In Today’s Episode
[02:11] - Guest Introduction
[02:58] - What Great FP&A Looks Like
[04:42] - PE Trends & Market Shifts
[07:31] - Early vs. Late Stage Projects
[12:02] - PE & FP&A: Building Trust
[17:32] - Corporate vs. PE FP&A
[22:24] - Hiring: What PE Firms Look For
[32:49] - Successful FP&A-PE Relationship
[41:57] - Final Advice & Wrap-Up
In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst sit down with Franz Faerber, Co-founder and CTO of Lensing, formerly Everest Systems, and one of the key minds behind SAP HANA. Franz shares his remarkable journey from leading SAP’s real-time database revolution to building a next-generation ERP platform designed from the ground up to embrace AI and modern business needs.
Franz Faerber is the Co-founder and CTO of Lensing, an AI-native ERP company formerly known as Everest Systems. Before founding the company, Franz spent over 26 years at SAP, where he served as Executive VP of Technology and was the original architect behind SAP HANA, one of the most advanced in-memory databases in the world. His work helped transform data processing and analytics for thousands of global enterprises. Today, through Lensing, he is working to rethink ERP from the ground up, using AI and agile development to address the inefficiencies of traditional systems.
In this episode, you will discover:
Franz Faerber’s insights offer a compelling vision for the future of ERP, one where AI, speed, and simplicity are no longer optional but essential. His journey from SAP HANA to building what is now Lensing showcases what’s possible when innovation meets experience.
Follow Franz:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/franz-faerber/
Company - https://lensing.ai
Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:
Follow Glenn:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii
Follow Paul:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Follow QFlow.AI:
Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg
Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.
Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.
In Today’s Episode:
[00:00] - Trailer
[02:18] - Meet Franz Faerber
[03:53] - The SAP HANA Revolution
[09:00] - Leaving SAP for Everest
[10:39] - Why Build a New ERP?
[18:36] - Dev & Release Cycles
[21:20] - What Sets the Platform Apart
[25:48] - Leadership & Vision
[29:32] - Chess, Books & Strategy
[33:20] - Final Thoughts
In this episode of Financial Modeler’s Corner, Host Paul Barnhurst sits down with David Stangeland, a finance professor at the University of Manitoba, to talk about teaching financial modeling, how students learn best, and the tools that have changed over the years, from PV tables to Excel. David shares what he's learned from more than 30 years in the classroom, why planning is so important in modeling, and how he uses real money investing through a student-managed fund to teach hands-on skills. He also talks about the value of the FMI curriculum, the role of judgment in modeling, and why he still learns something new every time he teaches.
David has been teaching at the University of Manitoba’s Asper School of Business since 1991. He has a PhD from the University of Alberta and is both a CPA and a CMA. His research focuses on corporate governance and performance and has been published in top finance journals. He’s co-authored two corporate finance textbooks and currently advises the school’s $2.8 million student-managed investment fund.
Expect to Learn
Here are a few quotes from the episode:
Follow David:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-stangeland-phd-cpa-cma-b-comm-29773946/?originalSubdomain=ca
Follow Paul:
Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@thefpandaguy
Follow Financial Modeler's Corner:
LinkedIn Page- https://www.linkedin.com/company/financial-modeler-s-corner/?viewAsMember=true
Newsletter - Subscribe on LinkedIn -https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7079020077076905984
Sign up for the Advanced Financial Modeler Accreditation Today and receive 15% off by using the special show code ‘Podcast’.
Visit https://bit.ly/497oAqW and use the code “Podcast” to save 15% when you register.
In today’s episode:
[02:03] - David’s Background
[06:36] - Love for Teaching
[10:05] - Starting with NPV Tables
[13:54] - From Calculators to Excel
[22:20] - Teaching with Three-Model Framework
[27:54] - Current Projects Outside Teaching
[33:19] - Modeling Standards Followed
[35:20] - Favorite Lookup Function
[37:18] - Advice for Aspiring Modelers
In this episode of FP&A Tomorrow, host Paul Barnhurst welcomes Andrej Lapajne, the CEO and founder of Zebra BI. Andrej shares his thoughts on the evolving role of data visualization in financial planning and analysis, the importance of clear communication through standardized visuals, and how automation is transforming the way we analyze and present financial data. Later in the episode, Paul and Andrej discuss the challenges of data modeling, how AI is shaping business intelligence, and why effective data storytelling is crucial for making impactful business decisions.
Andrej Lapajne is the CEO and founder of Zebra BI, a company dedicated to revolutionizing the way businesses communicate financial insights. With over 20 years of experience in business intelligence and data visualization, Andrej has helped organizations across industries implement better reporting systems. He is a passionate advocate for the International Business Communication Standards (IBCS), a methodology he helped popularize to improve data reporting and visualization.
Expect to Learn:
Here are a few quotes from the episode:
Andrej Lapajne shared a clear and insightful perspective on the future of data visualization in financial planning and analysis. He emphasized the need for standardized communication, the importance of clean data, and the power of automation in transforming analytics. Together with Paul Barnhurst, this episode highlights the critical role of FP&A professionals in driving business decisions and how the integration of effective data visualization and modern technology will shape the future of the profession.
Get Certified with the FPAC Credential
Earn the only FP&A credential that proves your expertise and commitment to the profession.
Use TheFPAGuy-FPAC for $150 off the Exam
Use TheFPAGuy-FPACEPP for $100 off the Exam Prep Platform
Learn more: https://www.thefpandaguy.com/fpa-certifications
AFP FP&A Forum: All insights. Zero spin.
March 23 – 25 in Indianapolis
This immersive, three-day event is built for financial professionals, by financial professionals, and it’s designed to help you sharpen your skills, stay on top of trends, and connect with peers who understand your challenges.
Learn more: https://www.financialprofessionals.org/events/meetings/afp-fp-a-forum
Follow FP&A Tomorrow:
Newsletter - Subscribe on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=6957679529595162624
Follow Andrej Lapajne:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/lapajne/
Website - https://zebrabi.com/
Follow Paul:
Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Earn Your CPE Credit
For CPE credit, please go to earmarkcpe.com, listen to the episode, download the app, answer a few questions, and earn your CPE certification. To earn education credits for the FP&A Certificate, take the quiz on Earmark and contact Paul Barnhurst for further details.
In Today’s Episode
[01:51] - Andrej’s Background
[02:38] - What Great Data Visualization Looks Like
[08:34] - Getting Into Data Visualization
[13:15] - Founding Zebra BI
[17:50] - IBCS: The Method Behind the Charts
[26:14] - Key Elements of a Compelling Visual
[34:54] - The Impact of AI on Analytics
[40:18] - AI Needs Clean Data
[45:27] - Essential FP&A Skills for Success
[52:29] - Last Question & Episode wrap-up
In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Paul Barnhurst and Glenn Hopper welcome Jeff Seibert, CEO and founder of Digits, a cutting-edge accounting platform. Jeff shares how Digits is transforming the finance world by automating accounting workflows and providing real-time visibility into financial data. He explains how integrating modern technology into the general ledger (GL) and other accounting processes is streamlining the financial close and eliminating inefficiencies that have long been part of traditional systems.
Jeff Seibert is the founder and CEO of Digits, a groundbreaking accounting platform. Previously, he was Twitter's Head of Consumer Product and appeared in the Emmy-winning Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma. Jeff co-founded Crashlytics, acquired by Twitter in 2013 and now owned by Google. A self-taught programmer, he started coding at 13 and graduated from Stanford with a B.S. in Computer Science. Jeff is also an angel investor in over 100 startups and was named one of Insider’s Top 100 Seed VCs.
Expect to Learn:
Jeff Seibert provides a fascinating insight into the future of finance, showcasing how AI can transform the accounting space from a slow and manual process to one that’s fast, predictive, and automated. His journey from self-taught programmer to CEO of a company revolutionizing accounting highlights the power of innovation in today’s tech-driven world.
Follow Jeff:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jseibert/
Website - https://jeffseibert.com/
Company - https://digits.com/
Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:
Follow Glenn:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii
Follow Paul:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Follow QFlow.AI:
Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg
Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.
Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.
In Today’s Episode:
[00:00] - Introduction to Jeff Seibert
[02:25] - What Inspired Jeff to Start Digits
[05:24] - How Did Jeff Overcome the Data Gap
[08:11] - Did You Expect the Digits Timeline
[12:38] - AI Agents in Classification
[16:50] - The Future of Real-Time Accounting
[18:43] - Wrapping Up with Jeff Seibert
In this episode of Financial Modeler’s Corner, host Paul Barnhurst welcomes Vaughan Grandin, Managing Director and Head of Financial Modeling at Teneo. They discuss his experiences building financial models in distressed situations, the importance of empathy in working with clients, and provide examples of complex models, including those from the airline, aircraft leasing, and classic car dealership industries.
Vaughan Grandin is the Managing Director and Head of Financial Modeling at Teneo in London. He is a Chartered Accountant with the South African Institute of Chartered Accountants and has more than 20 years of experience in corporate advisory, finance, and restructuring. He leads Teneo’s financial modelling team, which supports clients and other advisory teams by creating reliable models for distressed companies, transactions, and stakeholder analysis.
Disclaimer: All examples and stories shared in this video are from Vaughan Grandin’s previous roles and do not reflect his current employer.
Expect to Learn
Here are a few quotes from the episode:
Follow Vaughan:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/vgrandin/?originalSubdomain=uk
Company - https://www.teneo.com/person/vaughan-grandin/
Follow Paul:
Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@thefpandaguy
Follow Financial Modeler's Corner:
LinkedIn Page- https://www.linkedin.com/company/financial-modeler-s-corner/?viewAsMember=true
Newsletter - Subscribe on LinkedIn-
https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=7079020077076905984
Sign up for the Advanced Financial Modeler Accreditation Today and receive 15% off by using the special show code ‘Podcast’.
Visit https://bit.ly/497oAqW and use the code “Podcast” to save 15% when you register.
In today’s episode:
[03:22] - Model Horror Stories
[06:52] - Empathy in Modeling
[07:55] - Inside Teneo’s Team
[12:50] - Classic Car Dealership Model
[21:16] - Modeling in Distressed Situations
[27:56] - Managing Complexity
[32:07] - Aircraft Leasing During COVID
[40:31] - Six Elements of Robust Modeling
[46:51] - Rapid-Fire Excel Q&A
[53:45] - Closing Reflections
In this episode of FP&A Tomorrow, host Paul Barnhurst welcomes Patrick Culkin, the new President and CEO of AFP. Pat shares his thoughts on leadership, professional development, and the evolving role of finance as AFP looks to expand its global reach and support a changing profession. Later in the episode, Paul gives a walk-through of his scenario planning framework using Gen AI, followed by a conversation with Bryan Lapidus about the return of the FP&A Forum, the state of the profession, and what financial professionals need most right now.
Patrick Culkin is the President & CEO of the Association for Financial Professionals (AFP), stepping into the role in July 2025 after more than two decades with the organization. He previously served as Executive Vice President and began his AFP journey in Human Resources. Bryan Lapidus, FPAC, is Director of the FP&A Practice at AFP, where he leads thought leadership, education, and community-building for financial planning professionals. With a background in corporate finance and consulting, Bryan is also a certified FPAC holder.
Expect to Learn:
Here are a few quotes from the episode:
Patrick Culkin shared a clear and practical outlook on the future of corporate finance. He highlighted the importance of staying connected, continuing to learn, and being ready to adapt as the profession evolves. Together with insights from Bryan Lapidus and Paul Barnhurst, this episode underscores the growing role of finance as a strategic partner in business.
Get Certified with the FPAC Credential
Earn the only FP&A credential that proves your expertise and commitment to the profession.
Use TheFPAGuy-FPAC for $150 off the Exam
Use TheFPAGuy-FPACEPP for $100 off the Exam Prep Platform
Learn more: https://www.thefpandaguy.com/fpa-certifications
AFP FP&A Forum: All insights. Zero spin.
March 23 – 25 in Indianapolis
This immersive, three-day event is built for financial professionals, by financial professionals, and it’s designed to help you sharpen your skills, stay on top of trends, and connect with peers who understand your challenges.
Learn more: https://www.financialprofessionals.org/events/meetings/afp-fp-a-forum
Follow FP&A Tomorrow:
Newsletter - Subscribe on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/build-relation/newsletter-follow?entityUrn=6957679529595162624
Follow Patrick:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-culkin-5981032/
Website - https://www.financialprofessionals.org/
Follow Bryan:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryan-lapidus-fpac/
Website - https://www.financialprofessionals.org/
Follow Paul:
Website - https://www.thefpandaguy.com/
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Earn Your CPE Credit
For CPE credit, please go to earmarkcpe.com, listen to the episode, download the app, answer a few questions, and earn your CPE certification. To earn education credits for the FP&A Certificate, take the quiz on Earmark and contact Paul Barnhurst for further details.
In Today’s Episode
[01:33] - Pat Culkin Introduction
[06:30] - Global growth and networks
[11:09] - Changing role of finance
[13:07] - Challenge for Corporate Finance
[16:03] - Opportunities in uncertainty
[21:05] - Why Join AFP or Pursue the FPAC
[26:54] - Scenario planning framework
[41:03] - Bryan Lapidus on the Forum
[47:27] - FP&A Forum: What to Expect
[53:43] - Wrap-up and closing thoughts
In this episode of Future Finance, hosts Glenn Hopper and Paul Barnhurst are joined by Jeff Seibert, founder and CEO of Digits. Jeff shares his journey from creating his first app at the age of 13 to building Digits, a platform that’s changing the way businesses approach accounting. With a background in tech and a passion for solving real-world problems, Jeff explains how his frustration with outdated financial systems led to the creation of Digits, which now provides real-time financial data to businesses.
Jeff Seibert is the founder and CEO of Digits, an innovative accounting platform that helps businesses manage their finances with real-time insights. Before starting Digits, Jeff co-founded Crashlytics, a mobile performance analytics company that was acquired by Twitter in 2013. He went on to lead Twitter's consumer product team and later appeared in the Emmy Award-winning Netflix documentary The Social Dilemma. A self-taught programmer, Jeff has been a part of the startup world for years and has invested in over 100 companies, earning recognition as one of Insider's Top 100 Seed VCs.
In this episode, you will discover:
Jeff shared his journey from building his first app at 13 to leading Digits, offering an insightful look at how modern accounting platforms are reshaping finance operations. His perspective on real-time financial data, overcoming the limitations of traditional systems, and the role of AI in automating workflows provides valuable guidance for finance leaders navigating the future of finance.
Follow Jeff:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jseibert/
Website - https://jeffseibert.com/
Company - https://digits.com/
Join hosts Glenn and Paul as they unravel the complexities of AI in finance:
Follow Glenn:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gbhopperiii
Follow Paul:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thefpandaguy
Follow QFlow.AI:
Website - https://bit.ly/4i1Ekjg
Future Finance is sponsored by QFlow.ai, the strategic finance platform solving the toughest part of planning and analysis: B2B revenue. Align sales, marketing, and finance, speed up decision-making, and lock in accountability with QFlow.ai.
Stay tuned for a deeper understanding of how AI is shaping the future of finance and what it means for businesses and individuals alike.
In Today’s Episode:
[02:25] - Jeff’s Background
[07:11] - Why Traditional Accounting Fails
[10:24] - Overcoming Data Challenges
[13:17] - The Long Road to Market
[17:42] - AI Agents in Real-Time Accounting
[21:55] - Overcoming AI Adoption Resistance
[23:20] - What’s Next for AI in Five Years
[25:41] - The Future of Accounting
[30:44] - Transition from Startup to Big Company
[33:56] - Personalized and Fun Questions for Jeff
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