Are you listening? If not, there may be more at stake than you realize. For Rhonda Butler—professor, executive leadership coach, and director of Women's L.I.F.T. Fellowship—failing to listen can do real harm, leading to an erosion of trust, silencing other voices, and tarnishing reputations. However, when leaders do listen (and apologize when they fall short), trust is strengthened and wisdom flourishes—for both the leader and those they lead.

In this final episode of season 2 of The Hidden Work of Leadership, Michaela and Rhonda explore

1. the intimate relationship between wisdom and listening,

2. the benefits of listening—and the costs when we don't,

3. why good leaders are good learners, and

4. the importance of doing what's right over trying to be right.

Links:

1. Learn more about our guest, Rhonda Butler - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhonda-chisolm-butler-phd-46aa2416/

2. Check out more from the Max De Pree Center for Leadership - depree.org

In the world of mental health care, wellness is often reduced to a lowering of symptoms. While fewer symptoms are vital to health and healing, it doesn't always lead to a thriving life. So then, how does one view mental health through a wider lens—the lens of flourishing?

In this episode of The Hidden Work of Leadership, Michaela O'Donnell talks with Mark Eastburg, president and CEO of Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services, about the narrow medical models of health and the wisdom behind the interdependence of flourishing. From elementary schools to thriving local businesses, Mark explains how the ripple effects of individual flourishing extend to communities and vice versa. Together, they discuss

1. why the concept of shalom should shape both individual and communal definitions of flourishing,

2. how leaders can better measure outcomes and successes of flourishing, and

3. the large-scale ripple effects of any and every job—including yours.

Links:

1. Learn more about Mark Eastburg - linkedin.com/in/mark-eastburg-13b0239

2. Check out Pine Rest and their work - https://www.pinerest.org/

Take a moment and think of some of the best wisdom or advice you've heard from the top businesspeople. What did you hear? Chances are you didn't hear things like, "Discussing failure is outdated." Or "I have never practiced being a leader." And you certainly didn't hear, "The world does not need better leaders." That is, unless you're getting advice from Daniel Fong.

In this episode of The Hidden Work of Leadership, Michaela talks with Daniel Fong, founder of Million Dollar Baby Co. and author of Been There, Mythbusted That, about the ways he's learned to lead unconventionally, biblically, and wisely—without all the cliches attached to it. Together, they discuss:

1. why conventional wisdom, though not wrong, is limiting,

2. the importance of knowing where our anxieties come from, and

3. why learning should be both ongoing and joyful—personally and organizationally.

Links:

1. Learn more about Daniel Fong - https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-d-fong-81106215/

2. Explore Million Dollar Baby Co. - https://www.milliondollarbabyco.com/

3. Order Been There, Mythbusted That - https://alabasterco.com/products/been-there-mythbusted-that?srsltid=AfmBOoo0jxBP9msX0njVpxFw4LGKYtdLQo0UliirQodGxoEUsvHr_dn8

Agency is a word we hear a lot these days. But what does it mean to live, work, and lead out of it? Particularly, what does it mean to act with agency in moments of crisis? For wellness coach and management consultant Gustavo Santos, the wisdom of recovering our agency begins with paying attention to our bodies and ends in freedom.

In this episode of The Hidden Work of Leadership, Michaela and Gustavo discuss,

1. what we can learn from the buffalo about braving the storms of life,

2. the importance of learning to dwell in crisis rather than fleeing it, and

3. the dangers of believing that success is a one-size-fits-all outcome.

Links:

1. Learn more about Gustavo - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gustavohrsantos/?originalSubdomain=ca

2. Explore the Doctor of Global Leadership program - https://www.fuller.edu/doctor-of-global-leadership/fall-dgl-2023-cohort-redemptive-imagination-in-the-marketplace/

So much of life seems to be uncharted. From the rise of AI and its still unknown impact on work to global crises that stir anxiety, to the shifting seasons in our personal lives involving family, relationships, and health. With each new challenge comes another decision to make—and most aren't easy.

So, what do you do when you don't know what to do?

It takes courage and vulnerability—especially as leaders—to admit we don't always have the answers. But Dr. Angela Gorrell reminds us that humility in moments of uncertainty isn't weakness; it's the foundation of wise decision-making.

In this episode, Michaela O'Donnell sits down with Angela to talk about her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don't Know What to Do. Together, they explore

1. how establishing wise practices can help us make wise decisions,

2. the wisdom of valuing curiosity over certainty, and

3. ways to navigate the competing convictions we face when making difficult decisions.

Links

1. Learn more about Angela and her work - https://www.angelagorrell.com/

2. Check out her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don't Know What to Do - https://www.amazon.com/Braving-Difficult-Decisions-What-When/dp/0802883974

In a time of increased isolation, finding ourselves within a community feels more important than ever. We ache for wisdom—wisdom that is embodied and drawn from shared experiences. But what happens when entire histories of generational traumas are erased, leaving us without the wisdom that comes from it? Or when we cling to the "lone warrior" myth, only to find it unsustainable for leadership and lacking the wisdom of teachers and leaders?

Patrick B. Reyes, Chicano executive leader, theologian, and author of The Purpose Gap and Nobody Cries When We Die, offers his unique perspective on wisdom and community. Together, he and Michaela O'Donnell explore

1. how diverse ancestral backgrounds can help us construct better futures,

2. the need to redefine who our teachers are and where we find wisdom, and

3. the importance of communities and constellations—and the humility to root ourselves in both.

Links:

1. Learn more about Patrick's work at Auburn Seminary - https://auburnseminary.org/

2. Explore Patrick's books as well as projects and podcast appearances - patrickbreyes.com

Too often, we assume our desires are bad or sinful—something to suppress or eliminate. But what if our desires were actually a pathway into knowing more deeply who God created us to be and our unique purpose in the world?

In this episode of The Hidden Work of Leadership, Michaela O'Donnell is joined by Tracey Gee, author of The Magic of Knowing What You Want: A Practical Guide to Unearthing the Wisdom of Your Desires. Together, they discuss

1. common misconceptions about desire,

2. how we can serve others and live out our deepest longings, and

3. practical steps for uncovering the deeper wisdom behind what you long for.

Links:

1. Check out Tracey's new book: https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Knowing-What-You-Want/dp/0800746228

If the old adage is true that wisdom is "caught, not taught," how do we live and lead wisely amid deepening social fractures and growing isolation? In this conversation, Uli Chi, author of The Wise Leader, joins Michaela O'Donnell to help us understand what it means to lead wisely in a complex world—and the importance of not doing it alone.

In this episode, they discuss,

1. the mysterious nature of wisdom,
2. why more knowledge doesn't necessarily mean more wisdom, and
3. the unique relationship between humility and power in leadership.

Links:

• Read about our guest - https://depree.org/bios/uli-chi/
• Check out Uli's book - https://depree.org/books/wise-leader/
• Learn more about Uli - https://depree.org/de-pree-journal/uli-chi-interview-part-1/

Season 1 has been a blast! We have loved having Lisa be our co-host and interviewing business leaders, authors, and therapists about how they were formed as leaders in the midst of disruption. In this final episode for the season, Lisa flips the script and puts Michaela in the interview seat. They talk about

• How learning to be present to her kids has helped Michaela be present as a leader;
• The adaptive skill of being a thermometer and a thermostat; and
• The value of people and relationships.

Links:

1. Life in Flux by Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Pratt Slayton: https://depree.org/books/life-in-flux/

2. A tool to help you do your own hidden work during times of disruption: https://depree.org/downloads/learning-from-challenges-crises-and-crucibles/

3. Subscribe to our newsletter for updates on season 2: https://depree.org/newsletter/

On this episode, Michaela and Lisa welcome Tod Bolsinger. Tod is the Senior Congregational Strategist for the Church Leadership Institute, Affiliate Professor of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, and co-owner and principal of AE Sloan Leadership. He has written nine books, speaks all over the world, and worked with organizations like Baylor University, World Vision, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Young Life, The Salvation Army, and over 100 churches of different sizes, denominations, and locations.

Tod's story and his adaptive leadership practice deal with difficult questions, like:

• What do you do when you think you're doing everything right, but morale is going down? When there's growth, but it's not sustainable?
• What happens when the very thing that's gotten you to where you are as a leader is no longer what is needed? Do you double down on your technical expertise or are you open to the work of becoming what you're not?

Links

Check out the first book in Tod's Practicing Change series: https://a.co/d/5binRit

Church Leadership Institute: https://depree.org/types/church-leadership-institute/

AE Sloan Leadership: https://www.aesloanleadership.com/

Life in Flux: https://depree.org/books/life-in-flux