Dr. Isabel de Bruin Cardso is a leading scholar and practitioner in nonprofit ethics, recognized for her pioneering work on the ethical challenges unique to the nonprofit sector. She is the founder of the Gradel Institute of Charity’s Nonprofit Ethics Lab, an initiative born from her doctoral research at the Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University. Her research introduced the concept of the “NGO halo effect”, demonstrating how nonprofits’ missions, moral identities, and people are often idealized in ways that obscure unethical behavior. This groundbreaking work has positioned her as a thought leader in shaping nonprofit ethics as a distinct field of study and practice.

Before embarking on her PhD, Isabel accumulated over 15 years of professional experience across a wide range of organizations, including NGOs, religious congregations, philanthropic foundations, the United Nations, and the World Bank. Through this work, she observed that moral missions and strategies such as codes of conduct, safeguarding training, and whistleblowing systems often failed to prevent unethical practices. These insights motivated her to pursue doctoral research and ultimately establish the Nonprofit Ethics Lab, which bridges research and practice to develop approaches to ethics that are fit for purpose in the nonprofit sector.

Currently, Isabel serves as a lecturer and coach at the Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University, where she teaches organizational ethics and nonprofit management. She is also a visiting lecturer at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, extending her influence to international academic audiences. Alongside her teaching, she consults with NGOs worldwide, helping organizations navigate ethical dilemmas and strengthen their ethical cultures. Isabel also contributes to nonprofit governance as a board member for several NGOs.

Her academic contributions include publications in scholarly journals, practitioner outlets, and newspapers, reflecting her commitment to engaging diverse audiences. She is presently co-editing a book on the paradox of nonprofit discrimination, further advancing discourse on the complexities of ethics in the sector. Isabel holds a PhD in Management from Erasmus University, an MA in Human Rights from Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs, and a BA in International Affairs from University College Utrecht, Utrecht University.

• KG: You've had such an interesting career, research, education, consulting across the world, to name just a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?
• DR. ISABEL: I think a lot of where I am now was based on always a drive to be involved with human rights, not necessarily only from a legal rights perspective, but more human rights as a principle as well. But the different stages and phases of my life have also been shaped a lot by circumstance, by people, and by opportunity.
• KG: What are the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?
• DR. ISABEL: How I look at ethics versus integrity, I think that ethics is like the framework. That's really kind of like the North Star, the moral compass of what we stand for. As individuals, these can be our values or also as an organization. So ethics would be what is incorporated into a code of conduct or let's say safeguarding policy.
• DR. ISABEL: Integrity is the implementation thereof. So it's really practicing what you preach. So without ethics, you can still have integrity, but you're not necessarily having that North Star guiding you. And without integrity, you can have ethics, but then you're not implementing your ethics.
• DR. ISABEL: Ethics really kind of as an overarching guiding principle, if you will, and integrity, the implementation of it.
• KG: What can you share with me about how you make that make personal sense to you? Is there a personal story, for example, when you yourself felt tested on these two issues of ethics or integrity?
• DR. ISABEL: So I think ethics, especially with respect to dilemmas, is thinking through how will a decision impact on the people or the stakeholders around you. Ethical dilemmas and making decisions around them are tough. It's never win-win. So being very conscious of the so-called moral remainder or the moral impact of our decisions.
• DR. ISABEL: I think with respect to how I approached ethical dilemmas to the extent that I have the luxury of time is to think about it, to take the time to think about it. Try and get as much information, perspectives as I can in order to make as informed a possible decision as much as possible. And also being very conscious to kind of reflect on what the outcome of that decision is.
• DR. ISABEL: Several times in some of the organizations that I worked for. But then the dilemma is what do you say? And how do you say it? And to whom do you say it? And yes, I suppose we are talking about whistleblowing now, but that dilemma also of the uncertainty of not knowing how that will impact you. So the ethical dilemma speak up or not?
• DR. ISABEL: I think that experience led me to also do a PhD in the sense of how can we explain both kind of that goodness of these organizations, as well as the fact that they can behave unethically. The ethical dilemmas that I've seen at work can also encourage me to undertake a PhD on this topic.
• KG: Let's acknowledge both exist, pick a path after considering all your stakeholders, all of the important factors, and instead of getting paralyzed by it, choose a path and then make that reflect on those decisions. It might sometimes be a wrong decision.
• DR. ISABEL: So a decision, you have like a good decision, which is different than the right decision, which is different than the fitting decision. And I suppose it also depends on how one perceives what the correct decision is.
• DR. ISABEL: The right decision could be about following the rules. You know, it's very clear, I have to do this because that's what the rules say. The fitting decision could maybe be thinking about the potential outcome of something. And the right decision could maybe be based more on implementing one's own virtues, what they stand for.
• KG: I feel that particularly nonprofit sectors in areas of work and life where people are very much giving for the betterment of the planet, betterment of humanity or other species really, there is an even deeper expectation of goodness, of good values, of ethics. And the burnout can be so much higher. The cognitive dissonance can be so much starker when people act. unethically or organizations show lack of integrity or lack of alignment with stated values, they do not walk the talk.
• KG: So the research that you are doing and your pursuits through your PhD and I know the work that you do now are so pivotal. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.
• DR. ISABEL: When there is a sense of cognitive dissonance or a sense of an emotional reaction, if you will, when our values are aligned with those of the organization to the extent that one has the privilege of choosing where to work and people work in the nonprofit sector, people tend to work for organizations whose values are very similar to their own.
• DR. ISABEL: In the sense of your own values can get flamed by the goodness of what your organization is doing. Like it reflects back on you. You think that you become really, really good because your organization is doing so well, creating a Halo effect. And that can also be reinforced even more within the organization itself.
• DR. ISABEL: If that sense of others' goodness is also idealized, it's easier to turn a blind eye on their unethical behavior. It's easier to give another chance. So people can be prioritized over integrity.
• DR. ISABEL: You mentioned burnout and that's something that I've also seen within nonprofits. I think one way of also explaining that within nonprofits is if this achievement of the mission is also haloized, that the mission is the end all be all for what the organization does. And if the mission is prioritized above other considerations like staff well-being or whatever else. There can be this tendency indeed for burnout because whatever you're doing, it's not good enough because you still haven't met the mission. So you need to be accessible at all hours of the day. You need to come in on weekends.There is no rest for the hungry, so to speak, because the mission is always there pushing you.
• KG: One of the problems is also if one is attempting to focus on employee well-being and also diverse perspectives around the board of the nonprofit, it can feel challenging to assess what to focus on. Do you have any advice for non-profits struggling with these kinds of things?
• DR. ISABEL: That struggle is inherent to nonprofits. Nonprofits are dependent on others for their resources. And this sounds like a paradox, but by excluding, you actually can include more. Because with limited resources, you are forced to make these decisions about what do we focus on. And by focusing on less, but you're able to do one thing arguably better.
• DR. ISABEL: Is the question too, about do you fundraise based also on what the donor would like you to do? Because there's also an ethical question. If the donor says you were referring to water sanitation, water, washed water sanitation, if the donor says you can do this, but also let's say education, to what extent do you then drift from your intentional mission to accommodate the donor? Or, you know, are you more conscious to fundraise from particular donors who might give you unrestricted funding and allow you to implement as you see best? So these are also decisions that nonprofits have to face. Where do you want to get your money from? Because this has implications too on how that will be used.
• KG: What are your observations on real world ethical dilemmas most relevant to non-profit boards today and what is your advice to them in those situations?
• DR. ISABEL: We know that nonprofits at various levels, boards, and executives face their own dilemmas, but they are rarely accessible in the public to begin with. And I think that also comes back down to that assumption of, because these are so-called morally good organizations. They're not made publicly available because of potential scrutiny against the organization or stigma. But they're also not used for training or teaching purposes.
• DR. ISABEL: So there's also this assumption that just because of business ethics, let's say that a code of ethics work, we assume that it also works in the nonprofit sector. We are a different type of organization. We have a different role and positioning in society than business and then governments. But how ethics is understood and spoken about and discussed and trained on is we're kind of borrowing from public administration in terms of values and implementing values. And we're also borrowing from business in terms of how they consider and actualize ethics management.
• DR. ISABEL: This is also the intention behind the lab to have conversations on this. Like we were talking about regulation, should the same regulation or accountability standards apply to nonprofits as they do to business, for example, because you're assuming then that the organization are black boxes, we fail to then take into consideration their inherent characteristics, what makes them unique, and their also unique positioning in society.
• KG: That nuance of higher purpose organizations, morally good organizations, and the lack of structure and how each organization can have a unique problem, how this is under-researched and therefore there's no category. As a researcher who's looking at ethics myself, I think a tripartite collaboration would be very good for societies, the government, the corporate sector and the nonprofits. But those are extremely difficult. They can feel unwieldy.
• KG: Have you seen any examples that are successful where morally good organizations, nonprofits, governments have all been able to come together to address perhaps some key issues, constraints, discussed constraints, we discussed lack of research. Have you seen any successful examples around these kinds of collaborations?
• DR. ISABEL: This phrase of morally good organizations and different contexts, you're absolutely right, because it's not in all contexts that nonprofits or NGOs specifically are considered to be morally good. For example, in Brazil, several parts of Brazil, they are mistrusted. And trust is something fundamental for nonprofits because it also allows for them to do their fundraising. And that lack of, that perception that they are not good can also be exacerbated when there is one example of unethical behavior.
• DR. ISABEL: In terms of partnerships with governments, I think it very much depends on context again, because sometimes nonprofits are like the government's service delivery arm, if you will.
• DR. ISABEL: One of the characteristics of nonprofits is that they are private, meaning that they have in principle the autonomy to create their own mission, independent from the political ideology of the governments. And you need organizations like that as well for advocacy purposes. You need organizations as well to bring kind of a mirror to civil society about what is wrong and what needs to happen.
• KG: Lack of trust and excessive public scrutiny and echo chambers in social media and digital world means that any negative thing is magnified and amplified.
• KG: When I'm working with nonprofit boards too, they're so anxious and paralyzed by not wanting to do anything bold. And they take very, very cautious, minute steps forward, which slows the progress down. But the argument I often hear is we have had a pristine reputation and a storied history of doing good work in the community for over decades.
• KG: Around this caution, do you have any advice for nonprofits? Is anxiety around trust, losing trust, being cancelled due to public scrutiny?
• DR. ISABEL: Nonprofits are held to a different standard of accounts. At the end of the day, it's a group of people working in an organizational form, just like a group of people might be working in a business form or in a government form. The question is, we should be able to humanize, I think, all types of organizations and should be cognizant of the fact that there are people behind the organization.
• DR. ISABEL: The fact that there are mistakes doesn't necessarily mean that they need to be brushed under the carpet, but rather it allows for an opportunity to have a conversation with the organization is where do we go wrong? And how can we do better to prevent it next time?
• DR. ISABEL: I think the more trusting the organization is then perceived because it humanizes. Certain ethical dilemmas can create anxiety, of course, in terms of will I lose funding? Will I lose other influential stakeholder groups? Then it's also that deep reflection of, if I do not communicate this, for example, to what extent does an organization make a statement about a crisis situation, even though their mission might not necessarily be focused on that part of the world or deal with issues affecting that part of the world, yet they feel morally obligated to make a standpoint.
• DR. ISABEL: Having conversations on dilemmas, being reflective about what is the ethical dimension of this dilemma. We know an ethical dilemma is different than a dilemma. So what makes it have that ethical components? Having these conversations about how do you see it? How do you perceive it? What would you do? How would you not do it? These conversations also help clarify what the organization stands for. Ethics is about the gray as we know. It's not about the black and the white. The black and the white people are clear on. The gray is unclear and that can also change over time. That can change with circumstance, with crisis. So the more that that gray is spoken about the clearer kind of it becomes like a black or white issue. Like you want to minimize the gray and then the more minimized it becomes, the clearer people in the organization know what the organization stands for and how to implement that as well.
• KG: What advice do you have for whistleblowers in the field of nonprofit work?
• DR. ISABEL: In terms of whistleblowing, it's also understanding your organizational context. What would it mean if you were to encourage anonymous whistleblowing? That might mean also harder follow-up when you do get an anonymous complaint. But if it is not anonymous, the person who might want to make the complaint might not necessarily feel psychologically comfortable safe in raising an issue. There has to be also the sense of culture within the organization that encourages speaking up. Speaking up that encourages also listening and then being very clear as what has been done with the listening. Not listening for the sake of listening, but active listening and actually doing something what has been heard.
• DR. ISABEL: There is no one size fits all in terms of whistleblowing. Again, context matters and there are various dynamics that can also be encountered through setting up whistleblowing processes and structures.
• KG: With your foundation, do you primarily work with organizations? Or would such a whistleblower, perhaps a well-intentioned, passionate person working within a nonprofit seeking some advice, seeking some help, would individuals also be helped? by your organization? Are you primarily looking to help and advise only organizations and not individuals?
• DR. ISABEL: Advice in terms of being able to set up or implement any kind of ethics management infrastructure, yes, and that would include whistleblowing. But to receive complaints or suspicions or advice as to how to go about if you wanted to whistleblow, I am not sure if we would do that. We would, however, make can do bespoke training.
• KG: So the hypothetical I had in mind is there's someone sitting on the board of a nonprofit that's small, doesn't have any processes in place and they certainly feel like there is a problem, whom can I speak with for advice? Are there resources you can suggest for help?
• DR. ISABEL: That would probably on Charity Commission's websites probably have guidance around who to contact and for what issue. It could be that charity regulators would have, across the world, would have resources on their websites potentially on this. But an ethical dilemma can, especially at an individual level, can also be discussed maybe with a peer in a different organization to the extent that they feel comfortable doing so. Because again, having that different perspective of someone who might be going through the same thing or is in a similar situation or context can provide that perspective.
• KG: Is there a peer community that you've observed for nonprofits, but that is a niche community need. Have you observed or seen come across anything like that, a peer community for nonprofit leaders?
• DR. ISABEL: Sometimes funders also facilitate these communities of practice or these learning opportunities where they bring together their grantees and they discuss their experiences, not that the donor is necessarily present, but they fund for the opportunity to allow grantees to come together to discuss a specific topic. Then you've got these umbrella type NGOs. So for example, in the Netherlands, you have Partos and you have Goede Doelen Nederland.

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She is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Conduit International Ltd a professional and personal development solutions company dedicated to helping organizations, leaders and women work smarter, live well, and foster meaningful connections.

With over two decades of experience, Leah has shaped leading HR strategies and served as a trusted coach and advisor to thousands of leaders, employees, and women across the globe. Leah has also led teams and has experience in Strategy Development, Mergers & Acquisitions, Boards & Governance, Professional Speaking, Facilitation, Executive Search, Corporate Communications, Facilities, Administration, and Corporate Social Responsibility.

As the CEO of Conduit International LTD, Leah and her team have worked across diverse industries, including insurance, reinsurance, education, non-profit, faith-based, financial services, food and beverage, and business consulting.

Leah holds an MBA from St. John’s University and is a certified strengths coach. She is also the author of two books Be Different & Assemble the Tribe, which was named Bermuda’s most popular book of the year in 2021.

A self-proclaimed recovering workaholic, Leah is passionate about helping women and organizations to find strategies to optimize their work, invest in their wellbeing and make a lasting impact on the lives of those they touch.

When she is not working, Leah enjoys reading, writing, walking in nature, and spending quality time with family and friends. She lives in Bermuda with her husband Terrance and two children.

• KG: You've done so many different things. You've had an impactful career in corporate leadership, speaking, training, coaching, writing, mentoring all over the world. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? I was curious about the driving force behind all that you do.
• LEAH: I had to say that there was a thread, I think the thread that weaves, that has woven its way through everything for me, it really comes back to my mind.
• LEAH: I guess if I had to sum it all up, my why in this season and my why for my work and my business is about helping organizations and leaders and women to work smart, to live well and connect with people.
• LEAH: I'm a strengths coach, so I believe we all have strengths and talents that we can develop into strengths and we should look to unleash that unlock it, the live well piece it's I think we're whole people and so there's the part of us that shows up at work. There's a bus that are leaders there's a gift that we have to give to the organization. But so many leaders do that at the sacrifice of themselves and so how can we live well? And then the connect people has just been my work for the last seven years or so, how do we build community? We need community to live our healthiest, happiest lives. And so all the work that I'm doing every day kind of plays.
• KG: What a beautiful thought. It makes space for varying focus areas and varying needs in different stages of life, but also enables people to identify core values that drive a person forward.
• LEAH: My experience is that your purpose, or purpose by definition, is the reason you exist. You are literally your purpose when you walk into the room and how that purpose is delivered or resonates or shows up in different seasons will change.
• LEAH: When you leave yourself open to the possibility of change, like the world just opens up in a much bigger way than if we put ourselves in these boxes.
• KG: What is your idea of ethics and leadership? What do those stumps mean to you?
• LEAH: Ethics are the principles of conduct that govern an individual or group. They're the principles that drive us as individuals or groups of people. Integrity is really about adherence to a code of values.
• LEAH: Values is like the anchor. It's the thing that, they're the things that keep you grounded in what matters. And then ethics is like the chain connected to the anchor. They connect to your anchor, your daily decisions, they give structure and tension. And then integrity is like the steadiness of the vessel. It shows if your anchor and your chain are keeping you from drifting when the current shifts.
• LEAH: Values are what you believe is important. Ethics create the rule to honor those beliefs. And then integrity is how you live them out when they're watching.
• KG: Do you have a personal story of a time when you had to navigate a different difficult ethical dilemma? But how would the outcome of that incident might have been?
• LEAH: Values, there's deep fundamental beliefs. They're both actual and aspirational. I've learned is that as we grow and as we develop, if we accept that we each have the capacity for change, then it's also possible that our beliefs are going to change, which means the chain and the tension is also going to change over time as well.
• LEAH: When we're navigating these issues, I think it's really important that we leave some room to grow, that we leave some room for grace. And then we also have to remember that a lot of the deep work that we're going to do is actually in the gray.
• KG: A lot of dilemmas and leadership is around the fact that there is no one true clear answer. It's so contextual and you're saying what's important is to maintain a sense of agility and fluidity instead of brittleness and rigidity around looking at things with the binary lens.
• LEAH: Shortly into my tenure I was asked to do something from a values and ethics perspective. I just thought it was unethical. And so my answer has to be that under no circumstance can I do that thing that you're asking me to do. And so at the end of the day, this is the decision that you have to make.
• LEAH: Sometimes when we think that there are these values and ethics that we stand on, we think that we should know the right answers all of the time. Sometimes what we really need to do is take a step back and as you said, give ourselves space to consider all of the options.
• LEAH: These issues that we navigate are never one dimensional. They're often complicated. These issues are going to come up again and again and again. And in some ways it feels like we even more increasing frequency right now and I think if we give ourselves the space to say what's the right answer for this moment I think that we will find ourselves in a better place.
• KG: These days, taking a stance seems like a dangerous thing to do. That you'll alienate some people, that you'll figure out this is what you care about and being seen and being authentic can sometimes feel dangerous because of public scrutiny, because leaders can be cancelled and they are quite often.
• KG: In all of this, what gave you the strength and the clarity to say this is important and I'm okay to take a stance? How can someone evaluate for themselves and make a timely decision on whether or not to take a stance? Can you share a little bit about how you thought it through?
• LEAH: I think there's two deciding factors. One is value. So for me, one of my values is trust. And the definition that I use for trust for me, for my trust value, is trust is where your intent and your behavior line up.
• LEAH: I want to lean into the work smart part of my mission. The other thing that I think helps me is some of my strengths can be very, some of them have a force to them. There's part of me that says, how can I turn the strength on myself to make sure I do the right thing? And so that's part of how I kind of processed how I was going to show up. Like, yes, it's uncomfortable. Yes, you don't really like it, but you have the strengths of responsibility and command and activator.
• LEAH: If the goal is for the organization to achieve results, if the goal is to bring people together, then we owe it to ourselves and the organizations and the situations to have these conversations. And for me, my value said I had to give back.
• KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to professionals, leaders, organizations?
• LEAH: How do we deal with the divisiveness that we see as people pick a spot and then dig in and entrench into those corners? And so the dilemma that a leader often has is do I then couple that with my own beliefs and values and then double down in that space? Or is there something else that I should be doing?
• LEAH: My reflections come from my last piece of work, which is a book that I wrote. It's more of a faith-based book. It's called Be Different.
• LEAH: I often take a piece of work and I say, how could I apply that in a leadership context? And so there is a model that is embedded in this whole idea of being different in that book. And when I apply that from a leadership context, it pushes me to ask leaders to first ask the question, how can I be different? 
• LEAH: There's five pillars. 1) Listen Different 2) Trust Different 3) Think Different 4) Talk Different 5) Live Different
• LEAH: The simple definition that I use for that is leadership is about unlocking the greatness in others to achieve results, right? And so if I want to unlock the greatness in my team that has very different views, then what is it that I need to do in order to get to that place that allows us to move forward together?And I would contend that the answer that every leader has to challenge themselves with is how can I be different in the gray.
• KG: How does that work in a rapidly evolving world with so much uncertainty, so much accelerated change, and with a lot of uncertainty also in how do we create an AI-empowered, fair world and not an AI-driven chaos where we can't quite control these very systems that we half-bakedly built. Can you help me understand how this framework that you're recommending will fit the leaders operating in this level of uncertainty too?
• LEAH: I watched this TED Talk on emotion and stress. And the particular speaker, she said, often we are afraid of certain things, but actually we need to use that stress and discomfort as a beacon, almost guiding us towards the thing that we need to address.
• LEAH: You have to talk a little bit differently. You have to talk with more hope. Listen, here's what I, I don't know what's going to happen 10 years down the road, but here's what I know today. And here's how you're adding value. And here's how I can continue to support and develop you. And that may be the only answer that you have, but use the pillar and the anxiety to kind of guide you into your next best step.
• KG: What advice do you have for leaders on how to build cultures of integrity in their organizations, in their teams today.
• LEAH: There's a quote that I use as one of the principles for the program, which says, the feeling is normal. The feeling of fear, the feeling of anxiety, the feeling of frustration, the feeling of anger, the feeling of imposter syndrome, that just makes you human. But it's the decisions that you make after the feelings that matter.
• LEAH: All of those things that we feel, all of those things that your employees feel, they are absolutely normal. They are part of our human experiences, but it's decisions that we make after the feelings that matter. So we can give ourselves space. We can go get advice. We can listen a little bit differently. We can think a little bit differently. We can ask ourselves, how can I be different? and that's okay.
• KG: That quotation pairs beautifully with the leadership model and framework you recommended before. Feeling is normal. Fill in the blank. Whatever feeling you're feeling right now, that's normal. What's the next decision you make? It's that decision that matters. Between the feeling, the feeling and the decision lies the framework. Listen, trust, think, talk and live different. Apply that and then hopefully a decision will emerge for you as you apply the framework.
• KG: Where is your research taking you these days? What are you excited about with regard to all of your work?
• LEAH: There's that live well right in the middle. And the reason why I'm focused on that in the moment is because when I talk to leaders, they share with me I absolutely understand these are the things I have to do to manage well. These are the values that anchor me. These are the things that I need to do to be able to operate more strategically and achieve results. But how can I do all of those things while still not sacrificing my own well-being? I'm a whole person. You know, I need time to invest in my well-being.
• LEAH: Based on my strengths, I am wired to execute. I am wired to work. And so some of this journey for me is in my quest to help others. I will also help myself and that's where my work is taking me at the moment. And so I'm just looking forward to what will reveal itself as I study what does it mean to really live well in our lives and our leadership while still making an impact.

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Prof. Saman works at the intersection of Technology, Education, and Business, driving Digital & Responsible Innovation and Transformation. As the COO and Vice Dean of Ecole des Ponts Business School of ecole nationale des ponts et chaussées (ENPC) and Founding Director of ReTech Center, he is a global thought leader helping entrepreneurs, executives, and decision makers navigate the Responsible Transition toward Industry 5.0.

HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS:

• KG:  You've had such an interesting career since 2000 in technology, in academia and business, how do you interconnect these domains and what drives you through all of this?
• DR. SAMAN: Since I was riding the tip of a very nice wave of technological transformation that I was lucky, of course, but that's how this store was remained open. You get to the point that, you would like to get engaged with more organizational and leadership aspects beyond the technology as a tool, as an enabler, but rather in terms of how decisions are made organizationally and everything else.
• DR. SAMAN: As you're working in technology, you're always using all the tools that you're very much informed about the reality of things, whether it be, metrics and measures for sustainability or socioeconomic, sort of implications of digital transformation up to governance and leadership aspects, which are very, very broad. So that's the way that I carved my way through was through the convergence of digital transformation with the responsible transition, which includes sustainability, circular economy, ESG, SDGs, and all the elements of responsible transition.
• DR. SAMAN: I'm actually really lucky because what we do here, especially at this school, working with executives, that's very enriching for me personally, but also for the work that we do. You know, with our community of alumni and participants. Because that is how we make sense of things. We bring something more meaningful than just studying or getting a degree or investing in something just for financial growth. We really look beyond that because we have that common interest and that's the value that gathers us all around what we do collectively.
• KG: How would you describe ethics and integrity in your context of the digitally empowered responsible transformation?
• DR. SAMAN: This from retrospective to foresight driven sort of ethics is one very important pillar that I can share. The other could be like the move from rule-based compliance to value aligned design in which, the move from as seen as external rules or legal requirements to be followed, this move from that side to the internalized sort of purpose-driven design that we have for our businesses and economies. Again, the angle is the desirable emerging futures, where organizations align the operations and supply chains and technologies and business models all around an embedded sort of ethics and integrity.
• DR. SAMAN: We can also think about from a binary trade between right and wrong to navigating like tensions and paradoxes and trade-offs because now the economies and markets that we engage with today increasingly are interconnected and over complex.
• KG: Are you noticing any pattern, as you're working with corporates and companies tackling the very cutting edge of technology? Are you noticing one particular stream more relevant to companies over the others as they're thinking about responsible technology?
• DR. SAMAN: Like the retrospective one to foresight driven and, embedding ethics and integrity into foresight. Industry leaders and also purpose-driven innovators that understand the implications of this digitally empowered economy that must be responsible because digital transformation is not going to slow down and every day we see more innovative ways of integrating technology in our personal professional lives.
• DR. SAMAN: These forces are coming together, those who are leading markets and industries and those innovators who are shaping the emerging futures of markets and societies, they work with it very directly. Those who are more receiving the consequences of this shift from rule-based compliance to value-aligned design. Those are companies who integrate ethics and integrity in the operation and leadership structures of not only their own organizations, but also they provide the tools for others as well to do so.
• DR. SAMAN: The one that about like from binary ethics to the complex tradeoffs, this is mostly I think well perceived and understood by all those who are engaging with the digital economy either directly or they are impacted by the shifts in the digital economy and also they interact with socioeconomic, socio-environmental dimension of their industry which means that they have a more sort of proactive engagement with their stakeholders either through investors and policy makers or through users and partners and clients.
• KG: What's your observation with Big Tech and how do you work with them to create that vision you have for a responsible future and ethical future in technology?
• DR. SAMAN: The pressure is there and that's one of the drivers of this transition to the responsible economy. So the driver for the digital transformation is of course competitiveness. There are many drivers for digital transformation like driving innovation, remaining competitiveness. But for the responsible transition,the pressure is coming from stakeholders, from policy and regulatory bodies, from investors, from consumers, from partners.
• DR. SAMAN: These pressures are very productive and of course they sort of push our markets and industries towards a more responsible sort of way of leveraging the capital and their assets. So what happens is that now increasingly we are collaborating with international organizations from businesses to government bodies.
• DR. SAMAN: So I think for me, it's like you need to embrace this pressure that comes. Of course, it's not easy, especially for larger organizations, like this is like a very strong competitive advantage for startups because you work on the cultural dimensions and a lot around change management and transformation.
• DR. SAMAN: The whole dynamic that is created around this move towards the digitally empowered responsible economy is making it very interesting to watch. Of course, it's like watching a dance floor. You get bored if you don't dance. So those who don't want to engage with the change, they won't enjoy it as much as those who are engaging with the change and transformation either receiving or, providing services and by any means that they can, they do something.
• KG: Do you have any perspective or take you want to share on those kinds of environments where digital transformation is inevitable and it's going to be everywhere? Some states perhaps are not there yet in terms of capability to partner well and to monitor and then delegating governance. Would you share some perspectives or advice on such environments?
• DR. SAMAN: If you contrast like this model of delegating governance versus too much of centralization as we see in advanced economies, which mostly are not yet at the capacity that they could be, the common element in both models that is contributing to this inefficiency, is the gap of skills. It's the gap of skills that touches all domains, like gap of skills in leadership and governance by itself, gap of skills.
• DR. SAMAN: Why does it matter? Because now moving forward, it's like the digitally empowered responsible transition requires our leadership and governance models to reflect both the digital transformation what can be done with it, what are their impacts, how would it change the way we do things and also the responsible transition like for example, depending on the region but generally speaking like circular economy and SDGs and SDGs.
• DR. SAMAN: This skills, the gap of skills in leadership and governance, the gap of skills in technology, operational aspects of the responsible transition like sustainable practices, regenerative practices, like all industries, from fashion, agriculture, energy, manufacturing, of course, all of them are impacted.
• KG: Have you come across any examples where perhaps they come close to what you're describing in either model and they're doing it well?
• DR. SAMAN: One of the contributions that we have is with the European Commission's community of practice of Industry 5.0 which ReTech Center is an official member of and there with other partners under the leadership of the EU Commission we drive practical aspects of the transition to Industry 5.0, is sustainability and technology together. So they represent a good role model for driving this. The EU Commission by itself is a great example.
• KG: Have you had a personal experience where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma? I'm curious about how such experiences have shaped your own approach moving forward because you're so deeply involved in creating a sustainable ethical future. Would you have an example you'd like to share?
• DR. SAMAN: When I was working on more hands-on sort of keyboard as we say. It was, we knew the potentials of the market. We could see the potentials of the market because we were developing solutions. And over time you start thinking about the socioeconomic and socio-environmental value of what is being you know, sort of delivered, sold, bought, you know. And then, you start questioning like, how else could it be done? How could it, you know, technology can be great tool? Why not focusing more on like enabling aspects of it rather than just driving the financial gains?
• DR. SAMAN: I have to step up and if I believe that something can be done and if I know how to do it, I need to share it and academia is a great platform to share.
• KG: Did you face any hurdles in making your vision come true? That it's not just the economic drivers around profitability, but we could think about a sustainable future too.
• DR. SAMAN: The type of challenges and hurdles that I observed and worked with. So I brought them together and did a bit of research as well again with expert practitioners and with decision makers. I created a risk and readiness matrix which is, which reflects the, all the elements of success and failure of organizations.
• KG: What are your observations on the real life ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what is your advice to professionals grappling with such situations?
• DR. SAMAN: Lack of ethical frameworks is something that is seen on the surface, but in reality, it's like a deficit in anticipatory capacity building. It's like ecosystem awareness and the alignment between operations and the values and the systems that we are trying to escape.
• DR. SAMAN: For the sake of putting them in points like one would be AI and autonomy versus the human agency. Of course, the values that we talk about, creativity, for example, human dignity, accountability. And of course, because AI is increasingly taking over decision-making, there's the tension for optimizing for efficiency or better value and preserving and valuing more human dignity, rights, accountability.
• DR. SAMAN: The core of Industry 5.0, human centric. The term when it comes, it refers to human centric design, human inclusive design, and not necessarily to put humans at the center and design everything for humans, but to make sure that humans are at the center of decision making, but enhancing technology.
• DR. SAMAN: The second one would be digital ownership versus data exploitation. The line between value creation and value extraction is very thin because of the wide variety of possibilities that we can innovate in operational, economic and business model.
• DR. SAMAN: Number three is of course like short-term innovation versus long-term responsible innovation. Startups and corporates are often pressed to scale fast without thoroughly considering the unintended consequences of short-sighted sort of innovation or short-term innovation, such as exclusion, course, resource depletion, ecological degradation, and of course, lot on the human side of things when it comes to human rights.
• DR. SAMAN: It's about a shift from ethical decision-making to ethical foresight. Which means that instead of focusing on the decision-making itself, we don't wait for ethical crises to arise, build mechanisms for anticipating the dilemmas and challenges before they materialize.
• DR. SAMAN: Foresight driven innovation, which requires of course interdisciplinary thinking, know, sort of a stakeholder engagement, multi-stakeholder engagement, scenario-based reflection, you know, early in the life cycle of the innovation. So that's how we can shift from focusing on decision-making itself to having an ethical foresight that would bring us the capacity to address the ethical dilemmas when they arise.
• DR. SAMAN: Now that we talked about capabilities and also foresight, this doesn't happen unless we can manage to see and redefine success through responsible value creation. This means moving beyond the KPIs that are profit-driven, built on economic modeling of sort of not sustainable or eroding sort of economic models.
• DR. SAMAN: Every professional, decision makers, executives, innovators, investors, policymakers, we all must ask like, whose future is being designed? Who benefits? Who bears the cost? And who's designing those features?
• DR. SAMAN: We can redefine success through responsible value creation.
• KG: Traditionally, there has been resistance to move from shareholder, short-term profit incentivization to more circular, inclusive thinking and stakeholder prioritization. How are you persuading the corporate partners you advise to do these two things, embedding integrity as a systemic capability and responsible value creation. Do you encounter resistance? And if you do, how do you help them overcome that in their mind?
• DR. SAMAN: The target audience with whom I would have this type of conversation are those who, first of all, they know what they don't know. And they understand the implications of ignoring the unfolding frontiers of businesses, markets, and society at the intersection of the digital transformation and the responsible trend.
• DR. SAMAN: How do you convince me to do this? Well, I don't need to convince you because at this stage we're talking about competitiveness for those who are the like avant-premier. Those who understand, those who realize and value foresight, which is digitally empowered and responsible.
• DR. SAMAN: Focusing on resilience and looking at this question from the perspective of resilience is that if we do not embed integrity as a systemic capability, it means that we are reactive, responding reactively and decide on decision-making.
• DR. SAMAN: The shift from ethical decision-making to ethical foresight. Whereas if we have embedded them, if we have embedded integrity, because we have had ethical foresight, then the systemic capability is much more resilient and also much more competitive.
• DR. SAMAN: The new measures, metrics and indicators that we need to use to understand what is the unfolding frontier of success, impact, engagement, leadership, governance, competitiveness, foresight design, business modeling, operational design, storytelling, marketing and branding. It's a matrix that looks into this and says, now for you as an executive investor, innovator, policymaker, decision maker, you now need to understand that what is coming up is as the both sides, it's like success in terms of digital integration and leveraging all the prowess of technology, if you like, in boosting your performance and everything else, good. But if you don't have the responsible side covered as strongly, you're not competitive because those who manage to do that, manage to drive the responsible transition through digital transformation, those will be more competitive and more adapted to the upcoming trends of markets and what stakeholders would value.
• DR. SAMAN: For the first one, that shift is about resilience. For the second one, embedding integrity as a semi-capability is about competitiveness and redefining success through responsible value creation is just validity and to being able to be valid still in terms of value proposition, economic modeling as a business and the upcoming markets.
• KG: It's not about how do you convince anyone do the right thing, you're pointing out that if you do not, if any executive, any leader does not do the right thing now, embed integrity as system capability, refocus on responsible value creation, then you simply cannot keep up with innovation at the pace it's going.
• KG: Earlier in this conversation, we had touched upon it, that you believe public-private partnerships are the way to go because governments sometimes are not equipped. Do you have a comment on this latest trend?
• DR. SAMAN: I think we have to step back in terms of questioning whether it's the right thing to do or not, or why do we have to do this, trying to have, take sides.
• DR. SAMAN: It's like if we zoom on something on a higher level, which is Governance, we need digital governance, that's normal. But maybe we need to look deeper into governance itself because it needs to be governed. We need to be able to have traceability. And that's non-negotiable because first of all, technically it's possible.
• DR. SAMAN: How do we make this governance more responsible and also more connected to stakeholders? So sort of a multi-stakeholder governance model that we go to. And this would be where tokenized economic modeling comes into play.
• DR. SAMAN: We have many of those successful governance systems, in closed systems, in more controlled environments. At enterprise level, for example, they're very strong, very successful ethical responsibility and all that. When it comes to a broader sort of hope, it needs to be analyzed, understood, and also understood in terms of the ecosystemic interdependencies of different elements that would be involved in the governance modeling and governance system. Those would need to be understood, studied, and driven collectively forward.
• KG: You mentioned that every year at ReTech Center, you pick two topics. What topics that you pick this year 2025?
• DR. SAMAN: We had social value creation using blockchain and distributed ledger technologies with branding and storytelling of fashion products, with art we had, with space manufacturing we had. Smart cities and cognitive cities and the role of AI and immersive technologies and blockchain.
• DR. SAMAN: So at ReTech Center, we have re-tech diplomacy. In terms of it's the same thing, but it's like looking into things from the angle of digitally empowered responsible economy.
• DR. SAMAN: The shift is in value systems and the transition takes steps. In governance also, we see in smaller states, some countries are stronger, some industries are stronger. But of course, as you know, there are many ecosystems that are completely legal.
• KG: Can you share more about the ReTech Center and how executives can engage with its various initiatives?
• DR. SAMAN: I put like a structure of four labs, the RISE labs, research, innovation, skills, and engagement. When I thought about it was because as I worked with the public sector in terms of research and innovation and the private sector, I saw the facility of addressing the challenges that we have from these four sort of gateways or perspectives is much more efficient and more engaging.
• DR. SAMAN: At ReTech Center, we help incubators and accelerators in order to help them push up the standards, increase their efficiency and their impact as well. And the return on the funds that they engage, return on investment, you can call it, but it's broader than that. So we help them by various means.
• DR. SAMAN: The reason to have the four labs, of course, because all these, they create a flywheel effect and they drive, accelerate research, they accelerate innovation, they accelerate skills and engagement and implementation, but they also nurture each other and they, it's the only way that I could find to interconnect the sort of the topics and disciplines that I was working on, which are now represented as the Retex specialization matrix.
• DR. SAMAN: ReTech specialization matrix, which is the matrix that has more than 35 specializations in terms of topics, such as AI and robotics, space, fashion, energy, agriculture. So these are like industry vectors.
• DR. SAMAN: The strong point is the entry points when we talk about skills. One red thread that was not mentioned is the gap of skill. Because if you think about capacity building, it's about skill.
• DR. SAMAN: If you don't know what you don't know and you don't know that, so you completely ignore this type of conversations, then it's obvious where that institution or individual is heading to.
• DR. SAMAN: The idea is that when we upskill and reskill, then we understand what we don't know and we try to understand them better. So we get to know what we don't know. And that's where upskilling and reskilling really feeds and nurtures capacity building, resilience, foresight capacity, innovation capacity.
• KG: Are there one or two that you want to particularly call out because either you sense an urgent need in the market and you want to say here you need help, we can help you or are there particular industries you want to focus on for this year and next year?
• DR. SAMAN: Well, our focus is across all the specialization matrix, but what we receive in terms of requests for support and let's say in fashion, in health, in space, we are seeing increasingly both the public and private sector sort of interests that are being highlighted.
• DR. SAMAN: Get here to explore, to develop, to advance, to innovate, to fund, to invest, and to drive with a strong community that is global what the future holds. That's what we are trying to understand and design together. That's like enhancing today and enabling the emerging desirable futures that we want.

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Tini Fadzillah is an executive coach and trainer based in Singapore with clients throughout Asia.

She specializes in coaching C-suite and senior executives in performance, leadership and change; with a reputation of surfacing and creating sustainable shifts to the underlying conversations needed to unlock a leader’s full potential and drive results.

Tini co-founded TWP in South East Asia in 1996 and has worked with thousands of people from diverse cultures on both personal and professional goals. Her passion is working with people to design a compelling future and to translate their goals into reality.

Tini is a Newfield Certified Ontological Coach and is an MCC level certified coach with the International Coaching Federation. Her clients include PETRONAS, La-Prairie, Aditya Birla, Prudential, AXA, Singapore Airlines, Mastercard, Save the Children, Eastspring Investment and Afton Chemical.

Tini is a passionate advocate for the role of the body in creating a powerful leadership presence. She is certified to use Tension Releasing Exercises™ and Wendy Palmer’s Leadership Embodiment curriculum. She also co-designed and delivered the “Women and Leadership Presence” program and was an active member of the team that designed the Character Building component of the National Service in Malaysia. Tini is also a certified health coach and embeds wellness within her coaching narratives as well.

• KG:  You're a leader of one of the eminent coaching, training companies, and education companies out there. You continue to do different kinds of work. I know that you coach, you train, you podcast, you write, you mentor. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?
• TINI: Absolutely, and that's people. One of the things I always say is that I absolutely love working with people. I have a firm belief that people wake up in the morning going, how can I do a good job today? And some people hit the mark and some people don't. I get to work with people who have the courage to go, let's try something different. And it's easy for me to say it, but for my clients who really are willing to let go of some of their long-held beliefs is just really courageous. And for them to be able to see the outcome of that is just, it's crazy that I get paid to do what I do. I love people. And that's the thread that runs through everything I do.
• KG: What was your journey that got you to this version of you, where you said, I love people. This is what I want to do. And here's how I'm going to show up in the world?
• TINI: I'm going to say the way I was raised was one of the reasons why I'm here. If you can imagine my whole life up to university where I left home was really about and if you read The book, The Purple Book of Coaching, I talk about this, which is from day young, when I was really young. I just remember us always having these conversations around my dad's work, around some challenges he would have, and they're all linked to relating.
• TINI: One of the things that I learned, which bridges into the work I do today, is that everyone wants to do a good job. I do believe that. Some people hit it, some people don't. And I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says, okay, today's the day I'm gonna do a really bad job.
• TINI: My role, and a lot of coaches do this, is our job, if the client wants this, is to support them to create a different future. So to answer your question about where did this come from, I'm going to say it's from my parents, certainly from my dad's work. I still love seeing what's happening in the world platform, in the world stage and just the relationship breakdowns that are happening or the lack of capacity for this or that, or with some people who are doing it really well.
• KG: Tell me a little bit more about what that book (The Purple Book of Coaching) means to you and what your objectives are in bringing that book to the world?
• TINI: We have access to some of the great experts in the field of performance in the field of somatics or the body, emotions, language, ontology, which is the umbrella of it all. And we work with them day in, day out, day in, day out. And people who get to access them are the ones who register for a program or have contracted us to do a program in their organization. We wanted to get some of this wisdom together in a book that's accessible to people globally, beyond just when they sign up for a program. And so that's really the objective.
• TINI: The objective or the drive is to impact human beings. Our objective, I love what I do and it's a tool for people to design the future that they're compelled by, full stop. And so if this is one of the platforms that people can access so that they can, in my chapter, I talk about relationships, that they can really take a look at the distinctions that I'm suggesting impact the quality and effectiveness of relationships and that makes a difference to someone living in the USA, why not? That's really the objective, to collate the wisdom and curate something that everyone can access if they want.
• KG: If there were a one line summary of what the Purple book stands for, what's the message that you're putting out there?
• TINI: The book's objective is for people to leave knowing that you can design your future. You really can, regardless of the historical narratives.
• KG: You create a very positive future, the potential is always positive and uplifted and elevated. How are you able to tie those two things together? What is right in the world?
• TINI: Relationships are everywhere. The question here is, where are you thriving in the relationships that you are creating? Where do you feel you can improve? Things happen in life that something that looked like it was thriving may plummet. And for a window of time, you're not thriving, such as after the death of a loved one. And so you may plummet a bit and your relationship with death, your relationship with loneliness, et cetera, might surface. And so that's really the link I would start with. Would start with relationships happening everywhere.
• KG: Ethics and integrity, what do they mean to you?
• TINI: Someone's capacity to create a fulfilled life, is the link, which is not always about happy. Sometimes it's about what's fulfilling for me. It can include happy. It can include contribution. And so the link to Ethics, integrity is to be in line with what matters to you in my world.
• KG: Would you feel comfortable sharing a personal example where you felt challenged, but you navigated through it while feeling one, you stayed aligned with your values and two, you were satisfied with how you showed up in that situation?
• TINI: The story of being a mom and being a mom to a child with special needs. I actually think it was my values that had me and what mattered to me, that really had me get on this journey.
• TINI: There is that transitional moment and my capacity to have my values align myself to create the clarity and designing my future.
• TINI: For those who might be starting their journey, it might be like, it's still really gray and cloudy. And that's okay because we become stronger. It could be that there was a breakdown in the organization. It could be that you need to lay off a whole bunch of people and it could be anything that you perceive as a breakdown. I know it's the value of the work that I did, because I was already doing this work and now is my opportunity to live what I'm working with people to live. It's like, I get to be a self-coach and even access my peers.
• TINI: Relationships, which is no one's expecting you to do this yourself. My point of view is we're actually the worst when we're like, you handle it yourself. This is a solo sport. It isn't. It isn't in my world. And it was with the support of lots of people and the environment of people always asking the question of what is it that matters to you? And then getting aligned with that.
• TINI: We're all writing chapters. The book doesn't end until it ends.
• KG: In navigating some of the greatest challenges, focusing inwards on understanding yourself, exploring what's possible within you is what is critical. Would you agree?
• TINI: There's value in focusing in words. And what I mean by that is the reflective nature of in words.
• TINI: When I focus inwards and I grow and I learn by self-reflection. I actually become better when I focus out and come from a place of contribution. What's my contribution? And my contribution could be tough love. My contribution could be honesty. My contribution could be listening, whatever it is, but coming from a place of focusing out to be part of a solution. And what came to me is this idea of living with polarities. The power of polarities.
• TINI: It's actually necessary, us breathing in, inhale, exhale. You can't breathe by just exhaling all the time. It comes in a package. What triggered my thinking when you said inward reflection and then outward focus and I think that's really perfect and relating is like that too right this is all about relating actually where it's where am I relating with self what is my relationship with self and what's my relationship outwards it's a lovely polarity.
• KG: What are you observing are some of the most demanding ethical dilemmas of the day? Are you observing any patterns of the age right now?
• TINI: Let me just start with general patterns first. And this has been consistent and it's equally as consistent and present today. And it links with this whole premise of people relating with one another and this idea of ethics, maybe not so much ethics, but just being in alignment with my principles and being in integrity with it.
• TINI: If you're not working in an organization, then you can start to reflect on what are the organizations that I'm engaged with and how is this relevant? And the one that is consistent is this idea of being honest.
• TINI: Something that's not in alignment with fill in the blank. Could be not in alignment with the objectives of this project we're working on, or it's out of integrity with. Do I have the capacity to give this feedback? This is one of the breakdowns that happens. And what happens is it creates all of this relationship tensions, which then impacts people's capacity to produce results. Because I notice something which by the way is my perception of what you’ve done.
• TINI: People's capacity to be honest and talk. It doesn't always have to be confrontative. People forget that actually there is legitimacy in how you see things. All of you, how you see things, there is lot of legitimacy in that.
• KG: Could you maybe guide us on how that might sound if someone were sharing in a way that invites a fruitful conversation versus everyone buttoning down their hatches and saying, no, you are wrong. No, you are more wrong than I am. How can you avoid that?
• TINI: People default to their habits. The context of the conversation matters. What do I mean by context? Context means where am I coming from? What's my objective?
• TINI: If you're gonna have a difficult conversation with someone, I think for you to get plugged into is to ask yourself, what's the outcome here? And what's my objective? Is my objective to be right? Is my objective to make you wrong? Now I'm gonna suggest that objective, even though it's you getting clear about it, it's probably not gonna work. Now, if your objective is to give feedback to support the other person to be better next time, if your context comes from a place of care.
• TINI: If I can appreciate how they see their world, I can curate my conversation because my objective is not just to explode a bomb in front of them and say, all right, there you go. Please handle it. That's not effective. My objective is to have a message and I want to lend the message powerfully. And so I need to know who I'm speaking to and I need to curate that conversation in a way that I believe is going to be received effectively by the listener.
• TINI: Comfort is not necessarily my objective. Effectiveness is my objective.
• KG: When I think about relationships and navigating those that are valuable to us, sometimes it's about not being able to safely walk away. We do not have the luxury of being able to walk away safely from these places. We're engaging and the triggers are ongoing. The relationships are important. And I suspect often what happens is it becomes harder to stay focused on these two points that you are pointing us towards. It's very hard for me to be calm within myself and remind myself of the potential and the possibilities of the situation.
• TINI: You may not need to offload if you do it regularly. It could just be regular conversations to just check-ins with each other to support, to be a source of support. Talking through, so one of the strategies is just talking through some of the challenges that you have.
• TINI: A sidebar is that, if you think about one of the buzzwords now is longevity. Not necessarily live longer, but stay healthy in the life that we have. So stay healthy longer. And being in relationship with people, being engaged in communities is one of the ingredients for longevity and wellness. Mental health, the capacity to offload and talk and seek support.
• TINI: Start to notice your default patterns and break it down. Just take one behavior that you're going to try differently.
• TINI: One of the things just around breaking down the muscles, breaking it down and treating it like muscles is where it all starts to interlink. Get feedback. Get feedback from, if you have the courage, from the people who have given a lot of feedback about you.
• TINI: What I love about relationships. I love that it's not a formula. It really requires curating. It really requires empathy. It requires a commitment to initiate something and be clear about what it is that I want to create. And it requires me to go, this is not the relationship that I want to spend my energy on and be willing to walk away.
• TINI: We all have the autonomy. We all have the power to design the future that's compelling for each of us. And the analogy that I always use is the vision that I have, the work that I do is in line with the vision, which is when all of us or the lucky ones who reach 100 years old or whatever that old age is, when we're on our rocking chairs, that we can look back on our lives and not say, I should have, I could have, I wish I did. But rather to sit on our rocking chairs and look back and go, now that was a frickin' awesome life.

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Ashish Sensarma is a Growth Architect - Apparel, Beauty & Fitness

With over 30 years of experience in the apparel industry, Ashish built and scaled consumer brands across continents-driving growth through branded retailing, multi-channel distribution, and a deep understanding of global consumer aspirations. From launching Mexx’s retail business and expanding it to 300+ stores across Europe, to elevating Vilebrequin into a global leader in luxury swimwear, his journey has been defined by strategic vision, operational excellence, and a passion for brand storytelling.

As an Indian-born Dutch national, he brings a multicultural lens to leadership and brand development. His expertise lies in controlled distribution, cross-border expansion, and building high-performance teams that deliver results. Ashish holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration (Finance) from Nichols College, and continues to thrive on transforming ideas into global success stories.

HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS:

•  KG: You've had such an incredible career, a C-suite leader, an entrepreneur, board advisor, investor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of this together? Is there a driving force behind all that you do?
• ASHISH: Initially, India gave me a lot of grounding of who I am, especially in terms of my personality and things like that. And then I was really blessed, I would say is the right word. I worked for a company called Mexx. That was the start of my career. And there I met leaders. I listened to them. I observed them. And a lot of what I am today is those early years of foundation.
• ASHISH: As I moved along with life, I learned more things. I got introduced to more people. So it's always been a journey of learning from people. And when you ask me my red thread, 3 things. It's always been for me about brands. I believe that brands have a huge responsibility in the world today. That's one.
• ASHISH: Second is about people. We are in the people's business, this is the people's business. And what ties this all together is for me the culture in which we operate. And when I talk about culture, I talk about working with people who are passionate.
• ASHISH: To answer your question in a concise three words, culture, brands, and people. Without that, I think the world is not very, you don't get very far. So that's the red thread, which has always been my, whatever I'm doing, it's about that. Is this a branded business? Is there a purpose for this brand? How are the people in this business? It's a people's business. And what is the culture that this business is all about?
• KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?
• ASHISH: Ethics for me is all about where we come from. The ethics I've been talking about myself as an individual. I learned my ethics from my parents. Those are ethics which I learned. It's the environment of people. There was no thing as right or wrong. It's about understanding what you felt was right and what you felt was wrong.
• ASHISH: Integrity for me is what do you do with all this? What do you do with this? It's this theory that you've learned all your life. How do you put it into practice? And that's a tough call. It's not easy because there's so many forces at play. And as the world is moving forward, as the world evolves, there are more challenges, more discussions, more priorities and it's tough out there.
• ASHISH: Ethics for me is more about theory. It's like a map and integrity is like driving a car. Are you able to do it?
• ASHISH: Integrity is about doing things when nobody's watching. Integrity defines you as a person. It defines your personality. It defines your purpose. It defines you as a brand.
• ASHISH: The world doesn't allow you too many mistakes. So if you do wrong things, the world doesn't remember all the good that you did. The world only remembers all the bad things you did. Integrity is a tough one because you've got to be very consistent.
• KG:  In all of the things you've done, huge organizations you've created and led, have you felt that there was a change in the way you looked at ethics and integrity for yourself as an individual versus when you have your organizational hat on where you now have huge teams, huge numbers of people and organizational needs to worry about too, not just your own ethics and integrity. Were they different for you or did they all feel roughly the same?
• ASHISH: You can make life very complex. You can make life very simple. And I have always said, anytime you are confronted with issues and problems, go back to your culture and to your DNA and you will find the truth in there.
• ASHISH: People accuse me that I talk a lot and I do. And the reason I talk is I love to communicate with people. I love to communicate with my teams. Whenever I've had the opportunity to lead people, lead teams, it's about transparency.
• ASHISH: Ethics and integrity is not about a blame culture. You cannot talk from two sides of your mouth. So if you believe in transparency, you believe in responsibility, you believe that you are there for a particular purpose, do your job, not somebody else's job.
• KG: Consistency in a leader where the leader is very clear about their own values and they're consistent about it. Transparency, honesty, keeping your value system close to your heart in how you operate and ensuring people understand that.
• KG: What are the biggest challenges that business leaders have to grapple with today?
• ASHISH: Everything for me is about branding. Today's leaders are faced with short-term versus long-term. There's so many challenges with short-term priorities.
• ASHISH: Today's leaders are really, I think confronting with that. We hear the word sustainability, we hear the word climate control, we hear the word world's pollution. I would say this dilemma of this constant need for growth, constant need for growth that I need to keep on growing my business.
• ASHISH: It's a lot of it is about creating products which last for a long time. It's about creating products which are transparent in terms of pricing. It's about creating products which are less about creating pollution. But how can we produce less without compromising growth?
• ASHISH: It's about brands which create a country's ethos. If you think about our country where I originally came from, India, brands are about creating those kinds of perception about what a country is all about. It's not about creating. It's about curtailing supply. It's not about continuously supplying all the stuff. Find a way to stop the demand, find a way to it.
• KG: What's your advice to professionals on how to build cultures of integrity in their teams and organizations as they grapple with competing priorities and diverse stakeholders?
• ASHISH: It always starts with the leader. You've got to set the example. So that's the starting point. Do the leaders of the organization or even in the family or even within your friends, do you set the standards for it? Are you the example? You've got to start with that.
• ASHISH: It's about really walking the talk and saying, if this is integrity, what should we be doing? And that is a dialogue, which is not a one-time dialogue. It's a nonstop dialogue, 24-7.
• ASHISH: One point is you're starting with your own leadership. Secondly, I always equate things not to organizations. Organizations for me are like a human being. They evolve. And next one after transparency is you need to have at least traceability and transparency in this.
• ASHISH: What I mean by transparency and traceability is that do companies have a clear role and responsibility defined about what you're supposed to do? What are your do's and don'ts? And I call it the cultural do's and don'ts. That defines you.
• ASHISH: Before we go all gung-ho and start hiring people, think the first thing we need to define is what is our cultural values? Because whoever we're going to bring in is going to come into our family. And that person has got to live the values which we are talking about.
• ASHISH: Let's find the commonality about what drives us. What is it that basically builds this community of people who are focused on doing the right things?
• ASHISH: The one which I have been exposed to again from the next days is something known as, can you reward integrity.
• ASHISH: When I talk about rewarding integrity, it's not about the what or the you know, it's about the how. How do you get there?
• ASHISH: Integrity is all about, there is a purpose in how you do things, but how do you get there is the bigger challenge. And can you do that ethically? Can you do that with real purpose? What I call a clear, it's like taking a thread and you can put the needle through the thread, understanding that origin of DNA of what you are. And if you do that, I guarantee you, you are going to be very truthful to the world and to yourself.
• KG: What excites you these days in terms of the future of the industry?
• ASHISH: This is a million dollar question. Now comes Bob Sheard. He's done work for 250 brands. And he's written a new book called The Brand New Future. He came out and told me, I've always believed about this brand and continent. He is 100 % convinced about it. He talks about Regenerative Branding. What people have not yet experienced is how do brands actually create experiences from their original product. But yes, keep on growing.
• ASHISH: We don't have all the answers yet, believe me, but the more I talk to him, the more I discuss with him. And he also is evolving as he moves and he talks to people. So we are in a very live example of doing something which we both are quite passionate about.
• KG: Do you have a quote, a book, or advice that you'd like to share for people who are looking up to you?
• ASHISH: I have read a book every few years. It's called Ikigai. Ikigai for people who might not be aware of it is a Japanese philosophy of how to live more happier and more healthier. It's an amalgamation of things what the world needs, what you're good at or you're passionate about, and what you should earn. But the starting point of the whole thing is that you need to find your reason to be.
• ASHISH: A quote which has driven me for many years, it was a quote by Martin Luther King. The quote says that even when you have an idea, even though the staircase is not clear, follow it. Follow it. Go with the path even though the whole journey is not clear. But if you believe in something, make the first step. Don't wait. If you have that feeling the universe will work with you to make things happen, even though you see half the staircase.
• ASHISH: Failures are part of human life. It's like a heartbeat. It goes up and down and up and down. If it's a straight line, you might as well be dead.
• KG: Do you have any tips on how to become resilient? In such a situation, a professional is feeling devastated and so worried for everybody who will also perhaps reap the bad consequences of something that didn't succeed. How can they bounce forward the way you're describing?
• ASHISH: Everybody's got two arms and two legs. Forget the skin color and the racial diversity. What is common is the mind. Your mind can make you a hero or a zero. Keep your mind, believe in yourself, but go back to your mind and go back to your value system. That is going to be your guiding force, your North Star. Believe in that and the world will conspire to make it happen.
• ASHISH: Go back to your value systems. It's all about your value system. What do you believe in? And if things are not going correct with your value systems, don't try and change it. It's not going to work. Things should happen naturally. Don't try and be hard on yourself. Just step back and say it didn't work. There's much more to life. You've got to get 10,000 feet. Ego may not drive you because people hate to accept that they are failed, but you got to be culturally powerful.
• ASHISH: Faith is taking the first step, even when the entire staircase is not clear.

REFERENCES OR LINKS TO SHARE:

● ASHISH’s LinkedIN/Website page

LINKEDIN

● ASHISH’s Book Suggestions

THE BRAND NEW FUTURE

IKIGAI

● The Human Conversation Podcast Channels

APPLE PODCASTS

SPOTIFY

Bringing her experience in both technology driven innovation and social system change to create desired futures for purpose driven organizations.

As a “Co-Thinker” Marion helps organizations become Future-Proof by co-creating inclusive and sustainable futures. Every organization faces the three major waves: digitalization (AI), sustainability, and social impact. Using methodologies such as strategic foresight, scenario planning, systems thinking, systems innovation, design thinking, futures thinking, and agile/SAFe, we collaborate on a transformation towards a more purpose-driven, desired future.

With roots in digital technology since 1998 and driven by a passion for strategy and innovation, she enjoys working together on solutions the world needs.

As a Futurist, she delves into future possibilities, crafting scenarios for both potential and desired outcomes.

Dedicated to being a FutureMaker, she transforms ideas into actions, focusing on setting agendas and catalyzing change to create a more equitable and just world. From emerging technology projects to board positions with impact-driven organizations, my mission is clear.

• KG: You've had such an interesting career, technology, conscious innovation, the future of work, advocacy, mentoring, speaking worldwide. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What was the driving force behind all that you do?
• MARION: You kind of only know that when you sort of look back, right? So I was kind of looking at one point, what is the right thread through my career? And for the longest part, it was digitalization.
• MARION: I have a book here, it's about the future makers or futurism. And it turns out I'm an explorer or a map maker. An explorer means someone is just going into the unknown path and a map maker, someone who then is while you're walking, might as well draw the map for the people who follow me. And I think that's kind of what I've done. And for the longest time, it's been digital.
• MARION: I've started following people through the world, some of the AI, we're on stage, we've been doing AI ethics for 20 years. They really were knowledgeable and were talking about responsible AI before the rest of us would know what AI was. And that really was helpful to see that. And that actually also made me see the bias in the technology, but also that it's a reflection of society, especially when you talk about AI now. And of course, society has its flaws. But when you start putting that in technology, it's basically starting to get carved in stone. And it's going to be harder to get it out there. So that's where I became an advocate of conscious innovation. So once you start doing innovation, let's be conscious about what's happening and how this is treating people. It's a great opportunity, but also you have to think about, know, who's benefiting, but also has been hard with this by accident.
• MARION: The majority of us use technology because we think we're improving the world. And then for some of us, then it becomes a worse place to be in. And that's something we need to be mindful of.
• MARION: I think my actual view for ethics, besides the fact that I'm a woman, and you know, the world's built for men. I've got this great book standing here called Invisible Women. It's a really good one to explain, you know, clearly the world's built for men by men, and we also live in this world.
• MARION: Wouldn't it be great if we could just be ourselves at work? And that was what everybody else wants, right? But for us, it's not a given. These countries in the world where you have to hide yourself or if you tell about you know, who you love, that's actually that could actually be grounds for firing you. You have to hide parts of yourself. So that was like, getting my attention from an ethical point of view about, is this really helping everyone and who are we leaving behind? Who are the vulnerable ones?
• MARION: I have a coach and she said to me, you need to get from knowledge to wisdom. I was like, what does that mean? But I've come to the conclusion, knowledge is much more about thinking you have to have the solutions. And I've been very big on creating solutions. That was like my skill set is like, coming up with solutions. Wisdom is much more about asking questions. So not having answers was asking questions and it's just a different modus.
• MARION:  I believe in more women on stage, but also I thought, I like doing those things. I like to be on stage. Just said yes and then figured out, so what does this exactly entail? And sometimes I'm gonna get myself into things, why did I say yes to this? But then, you get through it and that are the best stories and the best memories.
• KG:  Can you share with us what these terms, ethics and integrity mean to you and how you use that sense of what ethics means to you in some of these new sunrise domains that you've been involved?
• MARION: I think it's about, does it come from the heart? Just let your heart speak. And I'm getting more and more, so consciousness of course also means the way in. And if you're not very conscious, then you know, your ego takes over, but you're also not very prone to what effects are on other people. It is about this gut feeling where, if something tells you it's off, it probably is. And then figuring out, can I figure out what is off by maybe just drilling that down in my mind.
• MARION: My two ethical questions, is just because we can, should we? And that's kind of, I think, a gut feeling going, maybe this is not the best idea. And you can also just sort of wonder then, so what could possibly go wrong? And that's usually examples from other similar things about, we don't want to be like them. And the other thing is, how is this helping humankind or the planet of the world in a sustainable way? And if we can't answer these questions, then that's a really big red flag.
• MARION: From an AI point of view, there are two frameworks I work with. One is called the Impact Assessments, Fundamental Rights and Algorithms. And from an AI point of view, it starts with why, so why are we building this? And then, the what are we building? And what kind of data is necessary for that? And then the last question is about human rights, or fundamental fundamental rights. And that there's a list in that document of fundamental rights. The point of this one is not so much filling out the form, but having a conversation with multiple people, and preferably a diverse group of people. So having someone who represents the user. And that could also be like someone internally, but also the affected.
• MARION: Just because you can should be, that's really your internal guide, your intuition going, if your stomach turns when you see something, listen to it. And how is humanity, how's the world getting a better place because of this?
• KG: The most powerful formulas or checklists for us are often the ones that are most intuitive and simple. You're asking questions, as you said, that should be questions zero.
• MARION: This is also about design thinking, what problem are we solving? And who are we solving it for? And part of it is, is the value proposition, what pains and gains are there? And that's the other tasks of people and you whether they're, what are they like? So what are the dislikes about, how that is done? That's where we want to create a product that is actually solving a problem. And you don't want to create a product that creates additional problems.
• MARION: You're doing it for them, not for yourself. But then it comes back again from the heart, which means involving others and doing it for that versus your own ego and need for validation yourself.
• KG: One of my favorite examples that I've heard you share in a panel in the past is that I've seen you talk about searching for an image and the effort of the algorithm to be representative and how it can all go wrong. Would you like to talk about that example?
• MARION: They're like all sorts of different ethnic backgrounds, but also they have had all sorts of different ones and they just went too far with, too diverse as in, we've got one of every flavor. I just asked for a group of friends and you're just giving me bias girls, but then in different sort of clothings and all super skinny. And this is not representative, but that's when we need my bias correction.
• MARION: How do we get this right? And that's a really interesting point because my right is probably different than your right because we have different lived experiences. Our expectations are different than what we're supposed to see. But it comes back again to whoever developed this product and when they were testing, I was wondering how diverse was the group of testers there that they didn't see this a first time round, or they thought it was acceptable to ship the product when it was clearly not showing a really good reflection of society, just one very specific view on society.
• KG: Was there a time when you yourself perhaps faced the temptation that they were competing priorities, perhaps as an entrepreneur founder yourself, or you were an advocate expert, subject matter expert helping a client and on one hand there was profitability and first more advantage on the other this is question zero that you raise should you do it simply because you can. Did you ever face that example and could you share it?
• MARION: When you have to talk about diversity or when you start talking about organizations, we have to talk about business cases. And it's like, I am valid only when I'm a business case, when you can make money off me is that really, that didn't sit right with me. I was actually actively advocating for it internally because we needed to get more diversity and we needed to get the money for it to get it all done. So I had to figure out for myself a way to navigate that. I could step out of it, but then I couldn't reach anything. I also realized that we were talking the language of the group we wanted to convince. So to get them on board, you need to speak their language first. And once they're on board, you can start having these other conversations.
• MARION: Even if you're the only one in a certain situation, there's always a lot of you somewhere else. You just have to find where your tribe is.
• KG: Advocate burnout is a very real thing. And that sense of solitude and aloneness is also a very real thing. We evolve and fit ourselves to where we need to be at, where it's advantages for us professionally or it's intellectually stimulating, but also stay connected to what nourishes us. And it's okay to traverse those worlds and be more than one thing.
• KG: For those early career or mid-career professionals, do you have any observations around ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to them? In tackling such things, new things might come up that they don't know anything about, don't know how to handle it. Any advice for them?
• MARION: I think one thing is if your gut says it's wrong, it probably is. It's interesting to see if you can find people who can help you, but you can also find other people to sort of have a conversation to figure out why you have this sense.
• MARION: The one that bubbled up yet today is digital colonialism. One particular culture takes over and we still have the remnants of that in our daily lives.
• MARION: If we're not careful, this big tech, it's not just the big tech oligarchy thing. It's also coming with this value. And it's basically wiping out culture, because it's so dominant and we all use the same base.
• MARION: If AI is a reflection of society, a reflection of what specific society are we talking about? How do we make sure that this beauty of all of our different cultures remains because there's value in it? There's a lot of things that we have all the same. We all have to go, if you go to a conscious level, there's a lot of the things, no matter what culture you're from, that are all the same. But there's these different nuances and how we speak and which language we use and how these languages translate into concepts that we need to make sure isn't a one size fits all.
• KG: I was fascinated by this recent example at UVA, where a student sued the university because they use facial recognition technology for exam taking. And this student happened to be a dark skinned person. The software did not recognize them. And they lost the ability to take the test. And they said, this is exclusionary. And the university's argument was, they are not the perpetrators of the crime here. They simply paid for software that was used worldwide by many other organizations, many other domains. And so the legal question for me was, so who is the offender here? I'd love for you to throw any light.
• MARION: I think it's helpful to start thinking of this offer like if it was a car, right? If you buy a car, you do expect a certain thing, the basic that is in there. If there are no brakes in the car and you get in an accident, it's the producer of the car that's very liable. But if you're driving in that car and you hit something, that's not the car's responsibility. That was you driving it. And then, you're liable for that particular damage. I think that's kind of how I would see this particular thing as well.
• KG: What is something that is inspiring you these days? Is there a quote or a book or perhaps advice that you came across that's made you say, wow, I love this?
• MARION: I like Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. And that is about someone who marriages science with indigenous wisdom. And it's things like that I think we need to look for. Something I'm going to be reading soon is about quantum and consciousness (Irreducible by Federico Faggin). But that's like if you're a bit further advanced in this whole concept of consciousness and technology and science. But you also want to get into consciousness and you're like Deepak Chopra. It's called Digital Dharma that's in and he's actively pitching it everywhere.
• KG: What are the passion topics you're currently excited to talk about?
• MARION: I give presentations on responsible, inclusive AI. I'm coming to give you something, that's kind of that space is how can we, we want something with AI, we want a strategy for AI, we want to figure out how this is going to help our company. We do want to do this in a humane way. It's not about replacing people, but it's about how are we using technology to advance ourselves as an organization and our people and making sure we get the balance right. If it's about giving me stuff, I'm really interested in consciousness and the combination of quantum and consciousness. And the topic I'm exploring for myself, I'm still figuring out what it means is called augmented consciousness.

MARION’s LinkedIN/Website page

LINKEDIN

MARION MULDER

MARION’s Book Suggestions

THE FUTURE MAKERS

INVISIBLE WOMEN

BRAIDING SWEETGRASS

IRREDUCIBLE

DIGITAL DHARMA

The Human Conversation Podcast Channels

APPLE PODCASTS

SPOTIFY

Geoffrey van der Ven is a spoken word artist and theater maker known for his sharp, critical, and activist voice, particularly within the queer and BIPOC communities. He often focuses on bringing unheard stories to the forefront, especially those related to queer history and identity. He is recognized for his solo performance "Het is niet nieuw" ("It is not new"), which explores the queer history of Africa, and is currently working on a new show called "What's the Difference," which delves into queer shame.

Geoffrey has received accolades such as the Poet of the Year award at the Queer & Feminist Poetry Awards and an honorable mention at Button Poetry. He has performed at major venues and events like the Nieuwe Luxor Theater, Rotterdam Pride, and the Amsterdam Fringe Festival.

• KG: You have such an interesting career in product management. You also handle innovation and strategy consulting. You also are a huge advocate and a spoken artist and a speaker, just the name of you. Is there a red thread that ties all of these activities for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?
• GEOFFREY: What I actually do at every company that I've ever worked at is I look at what we do, whether that's the systems that we use internally or the systems that we provide to our clients or users. And I see where it does and it doesn't work for the people that are using it. And then I take action because I get really itchy when I see something that doesn't work. Well, we can probably fix this so that I, come up with an idea. We test it and we fix it and we make it better.
• GEOFFREY: I think that human aspect is what seeps through also on the artist side of the story. I think that personal, human, there's always, the human, people are gonna be like, there's humans everywhere, but there's always the human thing, the human aspect of it, the human story, whether that's your own story or the story of your clients, that's always present.
• KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?
• GEOFFREY: Integrity because I think that's the easiest one to carry. Do what is right. Not what's easy or what comes the fastest. Just do the right thing. Do the right thing with that responsibility. Come up for voices that don't have that stage. It's gonna sound very holier than thou, but speak to the greater good. Use your story in the right way and then be aware of the dynamics that are at play and of the space that you take and the space that someone you maybe shouldn't take or should pass over to someone else.
• GEOFFREY:  There's moments where you might have two user groups that have conflicting needs, or where despite all the right intentions, you have a line in a poem that does hurt someone or offend someone. I think that we need to get rid of that idea that there's no ambivalence in this. There can be multiple things that occur at the same time. But then again, I think it comes down to how you then deal with those situations.
• KG: Is there an example that you feel comfortable sharing where you navigate an ethical dilemma? And then maybe you can share what you learned from it in how to deal with these difficult conversations?
• GEOFFREY: I think that when it comes down to staying aligned with your values, that's easier for me to speak on.
• KG: Is there a blueprint in your mind where it's almost like an algorithm and that's how you find it fairly straightforward because that's consistent in everything you've said so far that in your mind it's a straightforward thing. Did you work on it to make it straightforward to unravel how we tend to over complicate things and worry? How did you get here?
• GEOFFREY: I am almost to a fault solution oriented as a person. And that's great and like 90 % of the time until I run into a problem that I cannot solve and then I crash. I think for me, after a while, I started working somewhere where I had a lot of agency, where I had a boss that went, or a line manager that said, do what you think is right, and if it's wrong, learn from it. Which was amazing, because for once I could see these innovation projects and these product management issues and go, this is what I think we should do. 90 % of what I think we should do is talk to the users. And not talking to the users is never an answer for me.
• GEOFFREY: Convincing people that you're right never works. Or sometimes it works, but then you win the argument and you lose the working relationship. It is worth convincing them that it's a path worth exploring.
• I think that honesty, that human side of the story, your own human side of the story, your willingness to take responsibility and admit that maybe you're not perfect and that if you're wrong, you will let them know that you're wrong. We miss that sometimes. But it aligns with a part of me about being open. And that part of me, that value of being open is what I carry through. The more that you start being honest and open about all aspects of your life, you also get to be honest and open in your work itself. And that starts, then things fall into place.
• KG: It sounds to me like what you're saying is one, it's actually quite straightforward to do the right thing. Keep in mind that it's the stakeholders who matter the most. If that's clear in your mind, sense of purpose, goal orientation, that's number one. Number two is to yourself be open, because if you're clear on what your goals are, you stay open and grounded and pragmatic about solution orientation. And number three, you seem to be saying is clarity in communication.
• KG: Is there anything you'd add to this list or anything that I've missed that you've shared already that would help early-career, mid-career product managers to successfully persuade people to follow their advice because you work with so many clients and organizations?
• GEOFFREY: Sit in the other people's chairs. I think everyone on any team can agree that as a company you have customers. And that as a company you want to make those customers happy, and you most likely want to get more customers. So whether you agree with me or not, we can agree on this. It's a shared value between yourself and your stakeholders. Keep whatever discussion you're having focused on that. It's not about me and it's not about you- keep it focused on that. And then look at that goal through the eyes of the people around you.
• GEOFFREY: I always, always, always have a problem backlog. It is a list of all issues that we know our customers experience with the product, of all problems that our customers have. Prioritized according to how many customers experience that problem and how frequently they experience that problem.
• GEOFFREY: We all agree, happy customers, more customers. So how do we make them happy? Solve these problems. Those are two things I want to add to that is empathy and prioritize the problems.
• KG:  Do you have any perspectives to share in terms of ethics and integrity? Customer orientation or user orientation in terms of responsible innovation or the future of this sector field?
• GEOFFREY: There will always be people that we're trying to make happy with our products, which means that you will always need an advocate for those people within companies to make sure that you're building your right product.
• GEOFFREY: I think in ethics, you end up in the same tale of just listen to your users. Learn to admit and see that everyone makes mistakes and everything can be wrong and consider the fact that you're working with people.
• KG: As a tech aficionado and perhaps a subject matter expert as well, are there examples in the public domain where you've observed companies or products are doing what you're recommending here?
• GEOFFREY: There was recently a company that I saw literally do this and it made me so happy. Cool Blue does this quite well. They have a really fun personality as a company. I think they do admit it when they're wrong. But mostly they go about everything with a sense of humor. I think another company that does this quite interestingly is The Nothing Phone. Their CEO literally on YouTube, like he records himself live watching reviews and responds to these reviews. And in some places he gives context for choices which I like because it's context for choice. So he's not excusing a problem or an issue. He's going, these are the constraints and these were the choices made based on those constraints, hence indeed this issue.
• GEOFFREY: I've had this as a product manager where you see a massive problem with your product and you don't have the resources to solve it within a week and you're like, it's big problem, but just being able to go to a customer, I'm gonna put in my best effort and attempt to help you. That already changes the interaction that you're having because it goes from the experience of you working against them and making their life harder for something that should be simpler to, okay, let me see if I can stand on your side of the story and help you. And even if I can't help you, maybe relieve some of your frustration.
• GEOFFREY: Every time I work with a development team, I need and want them to be able to read the interviews with the customers and to understand the customer's problem. First of all, you end up with creative solutions that anybody else on the team would have never thought of. And second of all, aligns them on the mission.
• GEOFFREY: The more empathy you have within your company towards the users that you're trying to solve problems for, the better that solution ends up being and the more motivated people end up being.
• KG: Is there a book, a quote, or any advice that you hold close to your heart right now and you'd like to share?
• GEOFFREY: I'm currently writing a theater show about shame. And to write that show, do research and part of the research was reading a book called Velvet Rage. This research on shame, it's incredible because you realize that it's present in so many layers of society and there's so many examples that you see and so many responses that people have to things.
• GEOFFREY: I think that we don't talk about shame, which is one of the mechanisms of shame is that we hide and we don't talk about it. And because we talk about it so little, it's not on our empathy radar. We very rarely go, what if they're ashamed? And that's why this is the response. And not talking about shame keeps shame intact. So that's a silence that I think we need to collectively break in order to make working together easier, in order to help you understand the world, in order to make makes life easier to have that extra little insight into this one emotion that we kind of keep aside and even when we do talk about shame we very frequently incorrectly define it so then we're still mischaracterizing it.

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Geoffrey van der Ven

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Jessica Bensch is a global advocate for workplace transformation and the founder of Vanguard Voices, a movement dedicated to making psychological safety a non-negotiable standard across all industries. With decades of professional experience across continents and sectors, Jessica has witnessed firsthand that good intentions and isolated efforts are not enough to create meaningful change. True progress, she believes, demands collective responsibility and unwavering accountability from leaders, employees, and organizations alike.

Having lived, worked, and traveled in nearly 40 countries, Jessica has developed a deep appreciation for the power of diversity—and the damage inflicted when voices are silenced. She knows that unchecked workplace abuse undermines creativity, erodes morale, and stifles organizational growth. Through Vanguard Voices, Jessica unites individuals and organizations around the world in a shared commitment to fostering cultures of true safety, inclusion, and accountability.

For Jessica, this work is more than a career—it is her passion and life’s purpose. Driven by a powerful vision of change, she continues to lead the charge toward a future where psychological safety is not just an ideal but a universal reality.

• JESSICA: I truly believe in creating environments where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully, openly, and contribute it meaningfully as well.
• JESSICA: My work is all about removing the barriers that silence people. The fear, the bureaucracy, the unspoken rules that are keeping people from speaking up, like taking risks and also driving change. I truly believe that companies thrive when people are heard and valued and empowered. And I truly believe that changing our workplaces, particularly workplace culture, is not just an HR issue, it's an everybody issue. It involves all of us. It starts with leadership responsibility, but a collective movement is needed to ensure that we have those safe workplaces that I believe that everybody craves for.
• JESSICA: Vanguard Voices is a not-for-profit association. Our laser focus is to bring the topic of psychological safety, that is where people can feel free to express their thoughts fully. Vanguard Voices was founded with the belief and the research that proves it, that psychological safety is foundational for our teams and our organizations to thrive.
• KG: Can you share with us what inspired you to start it?
• JESSICA: I think it was about seven, eight years ago, our company was going through a transformation. And at that time, the messaging that was coming through from, you know, as part of that transformation is that we need to be more bold, we need to be more courageous, we need to speak up. And I thought, that's great. And we started a grassroots effort within our company. We were doing speaking engagements, we were doing surveys and focus groups and sharing a lot of stories, not with the corporate jargon, but real, authentic stories were coming to the surface. And we were speaking to leaders at all levels. And at that time, we were seeing such momentum. With this effort because it was resonating. were really getting to the core of why people felt uncomfortable, generally speaking, of bringing their voice forward. And along the way, we were, of course, speaking with leaders at all levels, and we had tens of thousands who were following us.
• JESSICA: What I learned is that fear is not at just one level at the organization, it's at all levels. And it was very difficult to kind of push everything through without engagement at the higher levels. And what I also learned was this is not a topic specific to one company. It's really a global topic. It's a human topic. And so with that understanding in mind, I thought, well, first of all, I can't let go of this passion and fire I have on this topic. And I want to make this bigger. And so that's why I founded Vanguard Voices with the pure belief that we can make change. We can link arms around the world and it will happen.
• KG: What environment or context does it take for a person to come up with a truly original powerful idea and build that, nurture that into a global movement. What did it take for you to do that?
• JESSICA: I just believe in treating everyone equally as human beings, eye to eye, not looking up, not looking down. And that's what fuels me forward. And I'm a big believer that as well that we all have a purpose and a purpose, know, I was born with a particular purpose to fulfill in life. And I believe everybody has their own purpose. I have discovered my purpose through this experience, you know, in corporate and now through Vanguard. And even though it's hard, even though there are lots of struggles along the way, I know I can't let this go because my values are too deep and my purpose is very much on my mind.
• KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you in the context of all that you do?
• JESSICA: Ethics and Integrity isn't just about doing the right thing. It's about doing it even when it's inconvenient and it's uncomfortable and even costly.
• JESSICA: Integrity is about doing what we say we're going to do when no one's watching. And it's how we're handling hard decisions. It's the moments where we could easily take another way, but choose not to. Ethics, it means aligning what we say with what we do. It's words with action. And so it's not about words on a wall, like from a company perspective, values written on a wall, it's making sure that those values guide our decisions, even when it's hard.
• KG: Have you observed any typical ethical dilemmas that professionals might face and what would your advice be to professionals on this?
• JESSICA: One moment that stands out is when a leader who wanted to have a culture of openness in his team was unknowingly shutting down voices that were around him. He would say, I want open feedback. I want honest feedback. My door is always open. But the reality from his team's perspective was when people challenged him, there were some subtle consequences. So they were excluded from key conversations or decisions. Their ideas were dismissed in meetings and basically their confidence in raising their voice to him stalled.
• JESSICA: I chose to be direct. And it wasn't easy because there was resistance at first. And over time, that leader realized that psychological safety wasn't just about asking for feedback, you also have to earn it. And so the most ethical thing to do in this situation for me that we can all do is tell the truth. And it goes back to telling the truth, speaking your truth, even when it's hard.
• KG: What I'm receiving from you right now is that sometimes it might not feel safe to call something out. And it's okay if a person cannot do it directly and may choose to do it a little later and slightly more indirectly. But in this case, you made it clear that there was a choice you made. And so, you're saying that someone can assess in that situation and if they feel they can, call it out and if they need a little bit more time, that's okay. So would you like to share a little bit more about that?
• JESSICA: Wisdom is needed. You need to sense, follow your intuition. We can usually sense when somebody is ready to receive feedback and is able to take it under the circumstances. What I often have found is when I've been direct, people come back and appreciate it. Many people like to receive kind of the reflection, you know, from the mirror. And that's sometimes what I provide. But there are others who may not be ready. And that's where that wisdom is needed.
• KG: Are there some typical scenarios you notice where it triggers failure of psychological safety or trust in the workplace in general and workplaces as you coach leaders today? Classic scenarios. Can you also share any tips to professionals in these classic scenarios? How would you say it? How would you begin? What's the opening gambit to be honest and reflect the truth back to somebody, especially in situations where perhaps you don't feel like you have all the power?
• ESSICA: The gap that I often see in companies is back to what they say and what they actually do. And so in companies, we often talk about inclusion. We talk about integrity. We talk about all these values, these beautiful values that are shown on the wall. We talk about them, but then some classic examples are when we're protecting the toxic performers. We encourage the feedback, but then we start to punish those who speak up. Another classic example is when there's a promise of transparency, but critical decisions are made behind closed doors. So this gap between what is said and what is done is really dangerous and it will damage the trust. And it just teaches people that what's said in public isn't really practice in reality.
• JESSICA: The advice I would give is that leaders need to look in the mirror first. And invite, truly invite the feedback from others, but they need to also be looking at themselves and asking their questions to themselves like, are we truly modeling this ourselves? Where are we short, falling short? What's one action we can take today to align the words with reality? People trust what they see, not what they hear. That's essentially, I think, the work that's needed in companies today.
• KG: I observed that this is also a great parallel to parenting too. You and I have both bonded over the fact that we're also parents and children too will trust you based on your actions and not your words. And so I think our outside personas and inside personas both need mindful attention to the fact that our actions speak way more loudly than our words do.
• KG: As you said, people actually appreciate your honesty. What can we say or do that brings that reaction out of at least some of the people we interact with?
• JESSICA: I am not somebody to focus on negatives. It's more, I'm a big believer in looking at their strengths and enhancing on those strengths. And if they are willing to go deeper and really working on one particular area, then I will meet them there. And provide some advice or some tips along the way.
• JESSICA: I do have a comment though about providing feedback. It doesn't always feel safe to give feedback nor to receive feedback. And part of the reason why I started Vanguard is because I believe that in order for us to feel safe to give feedback, psychological safety, feeling free to express our thoughts, has to be prioritized and measured and monitored at all levels of the organization.
• KG: Have you come across any technology or modality or assessment system that you have seen to be particularly effective? Have you seen anything that is surprisingly good?
• JESSICA: There's different tools in terms of us as individuals, MBTI is a famous one. There's 16 personalities, there's strength binders. From an individual perspective, you can assess. I've seen other tools like learning circle profile, LCP, which is widely used in some of the corporates and where you have an opportunity to see what are your creative behaviors, when are you in the creative space versus in the reactive space. And here you get feedback from your team as well.
• JESSICA: I like to have people be at ease. I want people to feel comfortable, but that feedback, again, if you know that psychological safety is there and we can be human and make those mistakes, the feedback is what will, from others, which will help us identify where we have maybe strayed and where we could make some correction.
• KG: Are there any books or quotes that have been particularly amazing for you that you want to share with the audience of this podcast?
• JESSICA: There is one book I absolutely love and it's from Mark Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce. And he wrote the book Trailblazer. And he says, values create value. If trust is our highest value, then we must earn it every day. And so to me, this is a powerful reminder that trust is not just a single moment, it's built through consistent action. And so every decision, whether it's big or small, leaders are either reinforcing that trust or either breaking it. There's no neutral ground. And so that's the real challenge and the responsibility of leadership.

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TRAILBLAZER BY MARC BENIOFF

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Dr. Nigel Paine is a change-focused leader with a worldwide reputation and a unique grasp of media, learning and development in the public, private and academic sectors.

He has extensive experience in leadership and consultancy with public service broadcasters, SMEs, global industry players, government and education institutions.

Nigel focuses on the use of learning technologies, organisational development, leadership and creativity with a spotlight on maximising human potential, innovation and performance in the workplace. Nigel is a strategic thinker, able to motivate, lead and drive organisations forward to deliver business and training objectives.

Nigel has been involved in corporate learning for over twenty years. He was appointed in April 2002 to head up the BBC’s Learning and Development operation. Under his leadership, the team developed a brand-new on-boarding experience, a comprehensive leadership development programme for over 6,000 staff, an award-winning intranet, and state of the art informal learning and knowledge sharing networks.

He left the BBC in September 2006 to start his own company that is focused on building great workplaces by promoting creativity, innovation, values based-leadership and learning and the link between them.

He speaks regularly at conferences around the world, and teaches on a doctoral programme at the University of Pennsylvania and for Chicago Booth Business School. His first book, The Learning Challenge: Dealing with Technology, Innovation and Change in Learning and Development was published in September 2014. His new book on Building Leadership Development Programmes That Work was published in November 2016. He is currently working on a new book re-examining learning organisations and learning culture. He recently co-authored an eBook introduction to Neuroscience for Learning.

He has a Professorship from Napier University in Edinburgh, and is a Fellow of the CIPD, LPI, the RSA and a Masie Learning Fellow in the USA. He presents a monthly TV programme (Learning Now TV), shares a weekly podcast (with Martin Couzins) called From Scratch, and regularly writes articles for magazines and journals about development, technology and leadership.

Nigel has written articles and white papers published on subjects as diverse as ‘Creativity in the Workplace’, ‘Building Corporate Heroes’ and ‘The Future of E-Learning’.

• DR. NIGEL: One of the things that I've come more and more and more to believe is that I value decency and kindness. And I think organizations are far too harsh and toxic and do not value decency and kindness. And the research from the book really indicated that if you do not value decency and kindness, you will never get the best from your staff. You can flog them, you can force them, you can cajole them, but if you really want motivated staff, they need to have unsolicited, unconditional effort, and that comes from decency and kindness. Increasingly, that's my belief, and I don't care what anyone thinks. I'm promoting that, and I will continue to promote it.
• DR. NIGEL: Even though some people think I'm being naive, I actually think I'm being realistic. Because the kind of world that we live in is so volatile, you can't get the best out of people by mistreating them and then saying, but give me your ideas, give me extra commitment. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen.
• KG: What do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you as you bring your expertise to the world?
• DR. NIGEL: When I started my own company, I made three decisions which have been helped. The first decision was I would never work with people I didn't trust. The second decision was that I would not stick to doing the same old, same old, same old. I would develop and move forward and think it through. And the third was that I would try to help organizations become less toxic in whatever, by whatever, whatever route. And I've tried to do that. I've maybe failed a lot, but I've tried very hard to live by those values. And it's really an ethical approach.
• DR. NIGEL: Integrity is very important to me. If I lose my integrity, I lose everything. If I lose a bit of money, I lose a bit of money. That's not the end of the world. I can get money back. I can't get my integrity back. So no one has ever tried to buy me or if they have, I've resisted it forcefully. And no one has tried to make me say things and no one has encouraged me to support bad treatment of staff or a bad culture. I'm trying to create a culture where people grow, learn, flourish and share.
• DR. NIGEL: It's very important to me to have an ethical foundation and values. And I like organizations that have ethical foundations and values and they live by them. They don't just stick them on the wall, they actually live by them. So I think that's very important. I believe and nothing has ever shaken that belief that basically people are good and that people the vast majority want to do good work. 
• DR. NIGEL: I really genuinely believe that we can make work better, we can make work work, and we can have people who really enjoy going to work do fantastic work and increase productivity for the organization. Productivity and a decent workplace aren't contradictory, but some people think they are, and I don't understand. Because there's no evidence to show that they're right and I'm wrong. No evidence. There's more evidence to show that I'm right and they're wrong.
• KG: Do you have any words of encouragement or advice for professionals who are not so powerful in those organizations, mid-level or early career?
• DR. NIGEL: You can behave in your area with your team in a way that is noticeably different from the rest of the organization. So the fact that the organization behaves in a particular way doesn't stop you doing something different. And sometimes it's like a contagion that you set something up. You put a bit of bacteria in the organization, then it replicates, at some point it becomes unstoppable.
• DR. NIGEL:  The minute you know consciously that this is not what you should be doing, walk away. Just walk away. However much they pay you, however much they say this is only temporary or whatever, because otherwise you'll get caught.
• KG:  It occurs to me that social media and technology are rather skewed towards negative stories, the stories of hatred and fear tend to be more attractive and clickbait worthy. But in your extensive experience, would you say large organizations and professionals are more towards the spectrum of kindness and decency and creating psychological safety in workplaces. Would you say that's your observation?
• DR. NIGEL: I think it's an increasing area of development in organizations. And it's not because they're just suddenly being do goody. We must do this to be good to people. They're doing it for very cynical, pragmatic reasons. If the more psychological safety, the more interaction, the more problem solving, the more creativity, the more productivity, it's all about getting the best out of people in the world.
• DR. NIGEL: And if you're not comfortable, you know what to do. You walk away and don't let that slippery slope start occurring. We compromise a bit, compromise a bit more, compromise a bit more. And then suddenly you've crossed a line. So that line still exists. These decisions are being made every day all around the world in organizations. So you know what to do. You know what the right thing to do is. But if you can do it without damaging yourself, then that's the best thing.
• DR. NIGEL: I don't believe in confrontation or holier than thou, in big moral high ground. I just believe in quietly walking away because that's the safest thing you can do. Disappearing basically.
• KG: I think it is an excellent example of nonviolent communication and strategic conflict management because indeed it is counterproductive sometimes as professionals to be defiant and speak up in ways that burn bridges, you can certainly continue to do your work and speak up and establish a clean record for yourself while being polite.
• KG: Do not bend your own principles. Make it clear what you will and will not accept, but continue to be polite and work while you might not see eye to eye with them on those activities, you're clearly outlining what you will and will not do. And therefore they know what to expect of you.
• DR. NIGEL: People have to be conscious of the decisions they make and the impact. It's rather like Nonviolent Communication, that wonderful book that you've got to be conscious of the language you use and recognize the implications of the language you use. And it's learning something, that things that were invisible suddenly become visible. And I think that's what this is all about. It's making it visible and bring it to the fore of your consciousness, not stick it in the back of your consciousness so you don't notice it.
• KG:  What are your observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what's your advice to leaders and professionals in these situations?
• DR. NIGEL: I just think as a leader, a leader who does not behave ethically, corrupts the whole organization. So I think you have a special responsibility and you may be under the most pressure. And we all know about ways that organizations do things that are not incredibly wrong, but are on the edge. I think if I'm a leader, I've got to have a clear indicator of what I believe. And I make sure the whole organization knows what I believe as well, so that you don't get people further down the organization misbehaving. But if I misbehave, I have no justification whatsoever for stopping anyone else misbehaving. And you tend to find these things cascade. So weakness at the top, ends up weakness throughout the whole organization. Strength at the top, strength all the way through the organization. people need to be proud to work for you. And if they think you're a bit of a scumbag, that you've got very dubious ethics, not much in the way of morals, it's very hard to work your heart out and do your best for someone like that, always. And I always say to leaders, be aware, not of what you say. People say the right thing usually, but be aware that everyone notices what you do. And don't be naive and think that you can do what you like and no one notices. Everybody notices. Everybody notices. So by your actions, are you defined, not by your words, because there can be a massive gap between words and actions. And that's very, very important. And the more the gap between words and actions exists, the more people talk about it, the lower the organization will be pulled, I think.
• KG: The integrity gap, that's such a powerful thing. That line, you're defined by your actions, not by your words.
• KG: What is your favorite quote or book or advice that inspired you? Would you like to share that with the audience?
• DR. NIGEL: Someone quoted Theodore Roosevelt and it's such a simple quote, but it really really affected me and it's a kind of the thing I live by and it said that “The fundamental role of our natural life or the rule which underlines all others is that on the whole and in the long run we shall go up or down together.”
• DR. NIGEL: I love that idea that we are all in it together and I will be in an organization where as if the people at the top rise, everybody rises. If I rise, so does everyone else. That idea that we're connected, that we're part of a community and that we're not all on our own or I can disengage my success from everyone else's. So I can treat people brutally and be successful. I think that's a very short term view of the world. So I think it is a fundamental rule.
• DR. NIGEL: GE used to have a quote in their leadership center in Cronenberg and it said, in a rising tide, all boats rise. I completely agree with that. You can be a massive ship or a little boat, little rowing boat. You all rise as the tide rises. And that's what you need to ensure, that you are building a rising tide and that you will ensure that all boats rise, all ships rise. So that quote really goes to the heart of what I believe.
• KG:  How do you maintain the great quality of your writing and thought leadership?
• DR. NIGEL: Don't write when I know something. I write when I don't know something. So therefore, I'm plagued by curiosity and doubt and worries. And that's what prompts my writing. So I want to answer a question. I've always got a question. someone said, I don't write when I understand. I write to understand. And that's exactly the same as me. There's always a dilemma at the heart of all of my books. And that's what drives me on. It's like an itch. I need to know, I need to understand that. And when I start researching it and I start to come up with ideas, I then have a compulsion to write them down. So I write a lot.
• DR. NIGEL: Writing is a habit in a way. If I have to write something, I can just write it. I don't need to worry. I never worry that I can't write. But a lot of people say, but how do you get started? And the answer is you get started by writing. You start writing, that's how you get started. And you just put words on a page and if they're rubbish, I write myself into understanding. So sometimes I write and write and write and at the end of the day, I discard everything apart from the last paragraph because that's my starting point. And that's okay. You write to edit to discard. You don't write to make it perfect. I don't agonize over a single sentence. I just keep writing. And if my writing is terrible, I just throw it away and start again. Because some days your writing will be terrible and some days your writing will be really something you can be proud of. But you can't predict it. But the only thing you can predict is if you write, you will end up writing something. It's as simple as that. 

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THE GREAT RESET

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Lenora Billings-Harris, is the founder and CEO of Critical Voices Initiative, a not-for-profit movement that helps people from all walks of life use honest words to open minds that build stronger communities. Before founding that organization, she held leadership positions within two Fortune 100 companies and a major university. Next Lenora worked for over 35 years as a diversity and inclusion strategist and specialized in helping organizations make diversity equity and inclusion a competitive advantage by disrupting bias. She is the author of two books, and numerous articles, and she is included among the top 100 thought leaders on diversity by the Society of Human Resource Management. Lenora is a past president of the Global Speakers Federation, and past president of the National Speakers Association-USA – the first African American to hold those positions.

In 2022 she received an honorary PhD for her research and global work, and in 2024 she received the International Ambassador Award in recognition of her impact around the world. Lenora was inducted into the Speakers Hall of Fame in 2018- again a first, as an African American woman.

Although she has been the first at many things, her joy comes when she sees she is not the last. 

• KG: Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you?What's the driving force behind all that you do and all that you've done?
• LENORA: I went to South Africa for three weeks at a time, twice a year for several years. And on one of those trips, I learned the proverb Ubuntu. Ubuntu, which is a sort of philosophy through many African countries, but I learned it in South Africa and it's a Zulu tradition and it means I am because we are. And when I learned that, I had just learned my purpose on this planet. I really felt that what it signifies is that we not only are all connected as human beings, what I do impacts you and what you do impacts me, regardless of whether we know each other. It just struck me to my core. And so my business has always... used Ubuntu as a foundation. So as it relates to the question of mentoring and speaking and writing books, my belief is that most people will do better when they know better, not everybody, but most people. And from a Ubuntu perspective, if I can, as a diversity strategist, as a speaker, et cetera, if I can help my audiences understand people different from them more readily, then perhaps we all will get along better. Perhaps we all will understand each other better. Obviously that's not what I say from the platform, even when I'm writing about it, I don't actually say it quite that way. But that is what comes from my heart. And that's what motivates me to do what I do. 
• KG: How do you also maintain your own individuality and protect your own inner flame? In other words, I have seen you walk that path so beautifully in feeling that sense of connectedness while also maintaining your own sense of integrity and ethics, especially when the world is such a layered, complex place and there's so many wicked problems that I know you've been involved in trying to solve and bring to resolution. And so in that context, what do the terms ethics and integrity mean to you? 
• LENORA: What ethics really mean is that I will do the right thing, whatever I deem to be the right thing. I will do the right thing, even when no one's watching. Because as you know, ethics and the law are not the same thing. So it's not about not breaking the law. Ethics is what is the right thing to do? Integrity to me means doing what I promised to do. So being willing to not over promise. And what you had asked me earlier is, how do I do all of that and still be an individual? And my honest answer is I only know how to do me.
• LENORA: What I have come to know now having been doing this work for so long and given my age, we are our most powerful self when we are being who we are. And each of us is an individual, there's no two of us alike. We all know that. But it sometimes takes a while to figure out what that is. 
• LENORA: What I learned over time was to pay attention to the way other people describe me so that I can pick from those descriptions what really fits for me. For me, it has become easier over time to be more comfortable being who I am, doing what I think is right for me and for others, and being more intentional on setting boundaries. That helps me stay in my individual space and in my life. 
• KG: I know that you too are working on ethics right now. Can you tell us a little bit about the role you're currently involved in?
• LENORA: I have been a member of the National Speakers Association for many years and have been fortunate to sit in various leadership positions, including having been a past president of the association. And for those of you listening and watching that are not familiar with the National Speakers Association, it is an organization for people who use the spoken word for part of or all of their income. And when I say spoken word, actually it's broader than that. So it's really for people who write books, who have podcasts, who deliver keynotes, workshops, our consultants, all of those things that surround using words, so to speak, as part of your enterprise and our organization not only teaches people how to be more effective on the platform, is the way we would describe it. That platform could be a book or it could be a podcast, again, whatever, whatever avenue you take. Also, our real focus is to help people know how to do this as a business. 
• LENORA: We as leaders, we need to be clear about what our own personal values are. And we need to be clear about what the organization's values are. And so often, although my area of focus is not ethics, so often when I'm doing my own research, that are relative to inclusion and equity and that type of thing. And I ask people, what's the organization's values? They don't know. And even when I ask leaders that, it is written somewhere, but it's so obtuse that no one really knows it. When we don't know what our values are, we have no guidance on what our behavior should be. 
• LENORA: Some people really don't care about the good of everyone. They're still stuck in their ego. But if we could just get clear on what your values are, and it takes some work to get clear on your values... It's not just what other people say. It may not even be what your parents or guardians might've taught you, but it is worth the work to be with yourself and identify what's really important to you, because that then can guide the rest of your behavior. 
• KG: Both as a leadership consultant and advisor to many organizations, but also as an acclaimed speaker, what do you feel are ethical dilemmas most relevant to leaders today? And what would your advice be in such situations?
• LENORA: Some people are so stuck with the short term, what they believe is the short term immediate reward for doing things that clearly long term will hurt many. I struggle with why that is such a difficult decision to make. And one of the things that I've chosen to do, in helping people get clarity around that.
• LENORA: Today's leaders are so pressed to produce whatever it is they're supposed to produce. They are not taking the time to get a perspective from more than one viewpoint. And consequently, it's raising their stress level. It certainly raises the stress level of others. And to do that, to have the willingness to get more information, to listen to different perspectives, to talk to different people, means you have to have a beginner's mindset. That is to say, when you reach out to someone whose perspective might be different than yours, your job, especially as a leader, is to listen, not just wait for the period at the end of the sentence so you can jump in and try to convince them that they're wrong. 
• LENORA: What I have decided to do personally is to help people have critical and difficult conversations. To teach them the skills to have those conversations because what I've learned over time, when I used to ask the question, and I've asked this to thousands of people at this point: “So what holds you back from speaking, having a conversation, a dialogue about diversity or racism or sexism or any of those isms, what holds you back?” And the answers always are, I don't know the right thing to say, I'm afraid I'm going to be judged. And by the way, we're gonna be judged anyway, because human beings can't not judge other people. So we're gonna be judged. So we might as well let that one go. But I don't know the right thing to say, I'm afraid I'm going to be judged. And I don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. Well, if we had better skills for these difficult conversations, we wouldn't have so much anxiety because we could go into those conversations by really being curious rather than judgmental with the intention of coming out knowing more than we did when we went in. 
• KG: Can you tell me how you have always done this balance so beautifully, where you are an appreciative inquirer into other people's ways of thinking while also holding your own sense of self so firmly? and with such clarity. I think that's a thing of beauty. So is there a book, quote, anything that inspires you, encapsulates your philosophy towards this? 
• LENORA: The first one is speak up even when your voice cracks. That is, don't be silent because you think other people are going to judge you or that type of thing. Now, of course, I mean, speak up with respect and that type of thing. I'm not advocating being cruel in any way, but be willing to speak up because your voice is needed. And speak up even when your voice is cracked, of course, means even when you're afraid. That piggybacks on my favorite quote by Marianne Williamson. Now she's written up, it's a whole long piece, but the part of it that resonates most with me is, and I'll paraphrase it because I know I won't get it exactly right, but she says, playing small serves no one. Let your life light shine, let your light shine. 
• LENORA: As I have gotten older, I realize I have no one else to please but myself. And at the end of the day, I have to be happy with who I am. Speaking up, though my voice might crack, speaking up comes in many different ways. So it's not necessarily always verbalizing. It certainly doesn't mean that the moment something happens that you disagree with, that you jump right in, you have to pick your battles and also the timing to, you know, to manage your, manage your emotions. But for Marianne Williamson's quote, playing small does not serve anyone so often, especially as women. We're socialized to play small. We're socialized to let other people's light shine and not ours too much because it might outshine someone else. Well, guess what? There's plenty of space on this planet for all of us to shine. 
• LENORA: My friend, Jana Stanfield wrote a song that you can find it on YouTube. And the song is, All the Good is the name of the song. And the refrain that just keeps repeating in it is, I can't do all the good that the world needs, but the world needs all the good I can do.

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CRITICAL VOICES INITIATIVE

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ALL THE GOOD

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