The Co-Inventor of Tor on Why Your NHI Strategy Is Already Behind

Most organizations have spent the last 20 years getting really good at human identity. 2FA. Biometrics. Face ID. Ephemeral tokens. They did the work. And the whole time, they were quietly pushing every ounce of that compressed risk onto the non-human side of the house.

Service accounts with username and password. API keys that never rotate. Credentials hardcoded in pipelines. Long-lived tokens that were supposed to be temporary.

Eventually is here.

In this episode, David Lee sits down with David Goldschlag, CEO and co-founder of Aembit and one of the original inventors of onion routing — the technology that became Tor. With 20+ years building security companies, David G brings a perspective on non-human identity and AI agent security that very few people in this industry can match.

They get into why NHI is not a new problem but a neglected one, what it actually means to build a zero trust framework for AI agents, the concept of blended identity and why your existing IAM stack is only part of the answer, why workforce agents and customer agents are fundamentally different and why treating them the same is a mistake, and why data is still the new oil and why that matters more now than ever.

If your org is spinning up agents and hasn't had a real strategic conversation about what those agents can access, who they're acting on behalf of, and what happens when something goes wrong, this episode is exactly where you need to start.

Topics Covered

• The origins of Tor and why onion routing still matters 30 years later
• How Aembit went from "Okta for workloads" to purpose-built AI agent identity
• The three types of agents: autonomous, workforce, and customer-facing
• Blended identity and blended policy in practice
• Why ephemeral credentials are non-negotiable for agent access
• Zero trust for AI: the three pillars (identity, prompt security, data security)
• Non-repudiation in the age of agentic AI
• Why vibe coders are making the NHI problem exponentially harder
• Data security as the ultimate endpoint for every breach scenario

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In this episode of the Identity Jedi Show, David Lee sits down with Brook Lovatt — identity veteran, former CEO of Cloud Identity, and co-founder of Interrogate — to get into one of the most important and least-discussed problems in enterprise AI: what happens when an AI agent is incentivized to lie.

Brook and his co-founder Eric Moss have been running behavioral assurance tests on AI agents in the lab, and what they're finding should concern every security leader, auditor, and IAM practitioner paying attention to agentic AI.

What we get into:

• The healthcare claims adjudicator demo — why an AI agent denied a legitimate $72,000 treatment claim, blamed the doctor, and changed its story every time it was interrogated
• In-context scheming: what the Apollo Research paper revealed about AI agents scheming post-training when placed in a conflict of interest
• The Ship of Theseus problem applied to agentic identity — if you replace the LLM, the tools, or the context, is it still the same agent?
• Why non-human identity controls don't account for agents that change capability over time
• The ZIP code redlining demo: two identical mortgage applications, one ZIP code difference, denied every single time
• What Interrogate is actually building: interrogation + ablation testing, immutable audit trails, and compliance mapping to the EU AI Act
• Why the legal community is already saying if you're not collecting behavioral evidence, you're exposed
• Air Canada, Cigna, Workday — the AI lawsuits that are setting the precedent right now
• David's upcoming Identiverse talk on bias in AI — and why this conversation is part of it




Referenced in this episode:

• Apollo Research — In-Context Scheming paper https://arxiv.org/pdf/2412.04984
• Interrogait - https://www.interrogait.com/
• OIDF AI Identity Management Community Group — https://openid.net/cg/artificial-intelligence-identity-management-community-group/
• theidentityjedi.com — subscribe to the newsletter

AI agents don't follow rules — they follow intent. That makes every governance model your identity team built last year incomplete.

Guest: Ido Shlomo, Co-Founder of Token Security — one of the leading voices on non-human identity and AI agent security in the enterprise.

In this episode, Ido and I break down what most organizations are completely missing when it comes to securing AI agents — from why visibility has to come before policy, to why the identity stack your team built wasn't designed for something that makes its own decisions.

What you'll walk away with:

• Why your NHI strategy is already behind — and what to do about it
• The one concept that changes how you think about agent access forever
• You can't secure what you can't see — and most teams can't see it yet
• Why the old enterprise sales model is dead and what buyers actually want now

If this episode made you think differently about AI agent security, share it with your identity team.

Chapters:

0:00 Why AI Agents Break Traditional IAM1:32 Real Agent Examples From the Field3:40 How to Define and Classify an Agent6:31 What Agentic AI Means for Identity Teams13:15 Non-Human Identity, Tokens, and Autonomy14:41 Intent-Based Access Control Explained19:39 AI Agents as the New Operating Layer26:32 How Buyers Are Changing Because of AI41:00 AI Impact Predictions for Identity Security47:34 Real World Agent Story: Clare Hepburn's Agent

Connect:

• Newsletter + Digital Products: www.theidentityjedi.com
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/identityjedi/
• Guest — Token Security: https://www.token.security/

#IdentityJedi #IAM #IdentitySecurity #AgenticAI #NonHumanIdentity #CISO #ZeroTrust #IGA #TokenSecurity

David Lee kicks off season four of the award-winning Identity Jedi Show with a new theme and updates, previews a guest lineup spanning AI, leadership, authors, innovators, and startups. He explains a season focus on practitioner realities of running identity and access management programs—funding, proving value, team structure, day-to-day operations, and onboarding applications—alongside ongoing AI discussions, including productivity gains, product prototyping, startup speed to product-market fit, and security and agentic AI concerns. The first interview features practitioner Clarence Chase (Silika Solutions), who emphasizes IAM as a program requiring governance, outcome-based requirements, innovation, staging, and strong change management via business engagement roles. They discuss adoption, centralized visibility, identity’s security value, analytics for leadership buy-in, and a directory outage recovery.

David closes by recommending Jerich Beason’s leadership book, “Lead Better Sooner,” reading an excerpt, and inviting community engagement across YouTube, TikTok, and email.

The Identity Jedi Universe → www.theidentityjedi.com

Jerich Beason —> www.leadbettersooner.com

00:00 Season Four Kickoff00:47 Show Welcome and Hype01:58 Where to Find the Podcast03:10 Season Theme Practitioners05:08 AI Productivity and Risks11:53 TikTok Growth and Plans12:40 Meet Clarence Chase14:17 How They First Met18:21 Identity Program Essentials23:07 Change Management in Practice23:20 Business Engagement Team33:34 Product Mindset for Identity35:59 Defining and Proving Value37:42 Proving Identity Value39:24 Rapid Access Shutdown41:48 Identity Meets Security43:48 Retraining Identity Talent48:56 Leadership And Hiring53:04 Rapid Fire Team Design55:57 Identity Degree Blueprint01:02:25 Directory Outage Lessons01:06:48 Why Identity Matters01:10:04 Leadership Season Tease01:10:53 Book Excerpt And Wrap

Wrapping Up 2025: AI Advancements and Future of Identity Security | Identity Jedi Show

In the final episode of the Identity Jedi Show for 2025, host David reflects on the rollercoaster year in identity and AI, explaining his plans to release a video on 2026 trends later on. He encourages listeners to subscribe to the channel to not miss out on the upcoming content, including a top 10 highlights video. The episode features an insightful interview with Raz Rotenburg, CEO and co-founder of Fabrics, discussing AI's explosion in recent years, its impact on cybersecurity, the potential of AI in revolutionizing identity and access management, and the concerning speed at which AI-driven attacks can occur. David and Roz delve into how AI can automate and enhance security processes, reflecting on the need for the industry to adopt more sophisticated tools for real-time security. The episode concludes with David expressing gratitude to his audience, urging everyone to cherish every moment as we head into the new year. Don't miss this thought-provoking wrap-up of 2025 with exciting insights into the future of AI and identity security!

www.theidentityjedi.com

00:00 Introduction and Welcome00:46 Year-End Reflections and Upcoming Trends01:53 Housekeeping and Announcements02:16 Special Guest Interview Teaser02:55 AI and Identity Management Insights07:12 The Future of AI in Cybersecurity11:06 In-Depth AI Discussion with Special Guest33:25 The Exciting Potential of AI in Cybersecurity34:00 Sophistication and Speed of AI-Driven Attacks35:21 The Role of AI in Enhancing Defense Mechanisms38:24 Challenges in Identity and Access Management41:43 The Future of AI in Cybersecurity45:06 Personal Anecdotes and Industry Insights48:44 The Vision for AI-Driven Identity Security59:08 Closing Thoughts and Future Outlook

In this holiday-themed episode of The Identity Jedi Show, we delve into major developments in the identity security industry. Host David kicks things off with holiday greetings before diving into significant recent events, including a whopping $700 million series B funding, a billion-dollar acquisition, and an $11 billion buyout. He also emphasizes the importance of staying plugged into The Identity Jedi community. Later, David introduces special guest Lee Header for a no-holds-barred interview about the state of the identity and access management industry—discussing the persistent challenges and necessary improvements. David and Lee cover everything from the 'enterprise SSO tax' to the gaps in standards adoption, and the role of AI in the future of identity security. Don't miss this insightful and honest discussion, plus tips on how the industry can better serve both security experts and end-users. Stay tuned and let's make the most of this festive season!

https://saviynt.com/press-release/saviynt-raises-700m-in-kkr-led-round-to-establish-identity-security-as-the-foundation-for-the-ai-era

https://newsroom.ibm.com/2025-12-08-ibm-to-acquire-confluent-to-create-smart-data-platform-for-enterprise-generative-ai

https://veza.com/company/press-room/servicenow-to-expand-security-portfolio-with-acquisition-of-vezas-leading-ai-native-identity-security-platform/00:00 Holiday Greetings and Show Introduction00:24 Upcoming Topics Teaser01:55 Housekeeping and Announcements02:53 Big News in Identity Security06:37 IBM's Strategic Acquisition11:40 Interview with Lee Tschetetter14:37 Enterprise SSO Tax Discussion37:20 Exploring the Higher Ed Ecosystem38:26 The Role of Grad Students in Higher Ed Projects39:00 Shared Signals Framework and Its Importance39:38 Challenges in Information Sharing40:56 The Need for Human-Friendly Standards42:15 The Complexity of Security Standards49:58 Real-World Examples of Security Mishaps55:25 The Importance of User-Friendly Security01:09:47 The Future of Identity and Security01:11:47 Final Thoughts and Reflections

In this episode, David interviews Joe Palmer, Chief Innovation Officer, to discuss his journey from a developer to his current role. The conversation delves into the evolution of identity verification technology, the impact of digital transformation, and the importance of identity security in the modern era. Joe shares insights on the challenges and advancements in the identity verification industry, emphasizing the significance of detecting live identities amidst increasing digital threats. The interview also touches on the future of identity verification, including the proliferation of AI and digital identities, and what lies ahead for iPro's innovations. To wrap up, Joe discusses his personal interests and the joy of balancing work with family life.

Links

https://www.iproov.com/

https://www.theidentityjedi.com

00:00 Introduction and Welcome02:03 Joe Palmer's Journey: From Developer to Chief Innovation Officer07:43 The Evolution of Identity and Security18:43 Challenges and Innovations in Identity Verification29:22 Entrepreneurship and Industry Insights30:40 Future of Digital Identity and AI44:47 Exciting Developments at IProov49:21 Personal Insights and Conclusion

Identity is the heart of cybersecurity.In this episode of The Identity Jedi Show, we sit down with Dutch — former senior advisor at Raytheon and AWS, now VP of Cloud Services — and Joe Palmer, Chief Innovation Officer at iProov, to unpack how identity and security are converging faster than ever.Together, we explore:🔹 Why identity is the new security perimeter🔹 How biometrics and AI are reshaping trust in digital ecosystems🔹 The challenges of vendor consolidation and what it means for enterprise defenders🔹 How leaders can build resilient, identity-first security strategiesWhether you’re an Identity Architect, Security Engineer, or CISO, this roundtable delivers real-world insights from experts shaping the future of identity-driven cybersecurity.💬 Question for You: How do you see AI and biometrics changing your approach to identity security in the next 2 years? Drop your thoughts below 👇🏾🔔 Subscribe to The Identity Jedi Show — where we talk about the future of identity, security, and everything in between.Check out our episode sponsorhttps://www.iproov.com00:00 Introduction and Welcome00:34 Round Table Guest Introductions01:57 The Importance of Identity in Security05:57 Challenges in Identity Verification08:19 The Rise of Biometric Solutions19:28 Account Recovery and Social Engineering21:38 Industry Trends and Consolidation27:07 Problem-Solving and Empowerment in Security28:07 Technological Advancements and Deep Fakes28:59 The Evolution of Cloud Computing and Security32:00 Identity Verification and Digital IDs38:32 Balancing Security Platforms and Vendor Management44:07 The Importance of Identity in Security49:42 Final Thoughts and Parting Shots

Welcome back to the Identity Jedi Show! In this episode, host David Identity Jedi sits down with Rich Rhodes, Chief Information Security Officer at Choice Bank, for a candid and insightful conversation about leadership, team building, and the evolving world of identity security.

Episode Highlights:

• Rich’s journey from small-town Minnesota to the CISO seat
• The evolution of identity management to identity security
• Why people and process matter more than technology in cybersecurity
• Building and leading high-performing, people-first teams
• Lessons learned from mergers, acquisitions, and industry consolidation
• The importance of empathy, mentorship, and authentic leadership
• Navigating the challenges of cloud computing and disaster recovery
• Industry trends: platform consolidation, subscription models, and the rise of new players
• Spotlight: Yes ID — an Okta alternative for small businesses
• Quick-fire questions: best advice, favorite food spots, and travel dreams

Key Takeaways:

• Leadership is about empowering others, not just holding a title.
• The biggest challenges in identity security are still about people and process, not just technology.
• Team success comes from trust, clear expectations, and genuine care for each member.
• The industry is changing fast, but the fundamentals of good leadership remain the same.

Featured Guest:

• Rich Rhodes — CISO at Choice Bank, with decades of experience in IT, security, and team leadership.

Resources & Mentions:

• YeshID (Okta alternative for small businesses)
• Identity Jedi newsletter and blog
• Leovici gear (discount code: IdentityJedi)

Connect with Us:

• Subscribe to the Identity Jedi newsletter at theidentityjedi.com
• Send your questions for the upcoming mailbag episode: [email protected]
• Follow us on Spotify, YouTube, and your favorite podcast platforms

Thank you for tuning in! If you enjoyed this episode, please like, rate, and subscribe. Be good to each other, be kind to each, love each other, and we’ll see you next time on the Identity Jedi Show.

In this episode of the Identity Jedi Show, the host welcomes Jim DeSantis for an engaging interview. They discuss their unique paths in the identity field, share experiences with Active Directory, and explore the rapid development of AI technologies. The episode highlights the challenges and misconceptions around AI implementation in enterprises, the permanence of Active Directory in certain sectors, and the complexities of data management. Additionally, the host outlines recent major acquisitions in the identity space and speculates on the future of identity management as vendors strive for platform consolidation. The episode concludes with a reflection on the inevitable disruption AI will bring to various industries and the evolving role of service companies.

https://www.theidentityjedi.com

https://leovici.com/?ref=identityjedi

00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview01:02 Insert Intro Video/Music01:37 Housekeeping and Announcements04:11 Interview with Jim DeSantis06:19 Identity Management Challenges15:02 AI in Identity and Data Management29:44 Exploring AI Tools and Their Impact30:22 The Magic and Reality of Technology31:27 The Future of Software Development34:01 Challenges in Cybersecurity and SOC Integration35:13 The Cycles of Tech Platforms and Best Practices44:56 The Longevity of Active Directory51:43 The Year of Acquisitions in Identity56:36 Concluding Thoughts and Future Outlook