Today’s guest is seasoned agency leader, Justin Thomas-Copeland – now CEO of the 4As – unpacking their transformation from agency trade body into a more proactive, service-led organisation.

He explains why agencies also need to look in the mirror, identify what they’re genuinely brilliant at and resist the temptation to be everything for everyone. Justin shares how specialisation strengthens culture and commercial performance, and why confidence is often a reward rather than a prerequisite.

He also offers a positive long-term view on talent for our industry – from the lack of playbook for young people, to the mid-career uncertainty. This is a fascinating conversation with a leader who’s excited by change and full of optimism for what's to come.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[03:32] A lifelong love of change

[07:27] 4As as a service

[10:50] Making the hard choices

[16:27] Looking in the mirror

[20:10] Filling the blind spots

[27:13] Build value from your DNA

[34:22] Rethinking the talent equation

[38:12] Beyond the linear career

[46:36] The importance of creative thinkers

MORE ABOUT JUSTIN:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/justintc

Website: aaaa.org

MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

4As Look Ahead: Looking Ahead to 2026

GenJam via LBB: GenJam Challenges Creatives to Build Live with GenAI

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guest is Dana Hork, Founder of Beers with Friends, the sprint-based creative agency that makes creative firepower available on tap.

Drawing on her experience as a brand-side marketer at Jet.com, Walmart and Wonder, Dana explains why she felt the traditional agency model was no longer keeping pace with modern marketing.

That’s why Beers with Friends takes a radically different approach – working with one client at a time, bringing the right talent around the table and compressing high-stakes work into five-day sprints.

Dana also unpacks how their model creates focus, choosing their ideal clients and how repeat business works without traditional retainers.

This is an innovative, positive, and optimistic conversation from a client who decided to do it for themselves.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[02:16] Selling ‘Beer Runs’

[03:26] Brand side beginnings

[09:45] Paying for focus

[13:57] Single vs multiple sprints

[21:04] People behind the brands

[24:58] Competing without competition

[27:21] AI the fidelity of ideas

[32:07] Designing the client experience

[37:29] Optimism through innovation

MORE ABOUT DANA:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/danahork

Website: Beers With Friends

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guest is Lisa Morgan, Group Managing Director at Generation Media, the independent media agency specialising in children, youth, communities and fandom.

Lisa explains why AI should redesign entry-level roles rather than replace them, liberating people from repetitive processes to focus on using their brains.

She shares how Generation Media identifies and develops young talent, balancing curiosity and technological confidence with human skills such as critical thinking, judgement and attention to detail.

The conversation also explores employee ownership, evolving agency economics, and creating a coaching culture to offer young people the leadership that they increasingly demand.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[01:54] Generation Media’s evolution

[05:39] Nurturing talent through the system

[14:26] Value of employee ownership

[20:43] Strengthening strategic thinking

[26:25] Away from selling time

[28:26] Coaching changes leadership

[34:19] Limitations of technology

[36:20] Finding balance

MORE ABOUT LISA:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/lisa-morgan

Website: generationmedia.com

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guest is Claire Hollands, CEO of Saatchi & Saatchi, one of the most iconic agency brands in advertising.

Claire unpacks how she revitalised this “legacy brand” by giving its most famous belief – ‘Nothing is impossible’ – renewed meaning for a more client-centric age.

She describes creating an operating model around realising impossible ambitions – from seeking clients at transformative moments to setting a clearer creative standard and giving every employee their own ‘impossible ambition’.

Claire explains why strong agency brands still matter – not least within holding companies – including how Saatchis acts as a doorway into the wider Publicis offering.

She also reflects on letting go of leadership ego, building a more inclusive culture, and why creativity and human intelligence remain fundamental to driving business growth.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[03:47] Rediscovering Saatchis’ DNA

[10:01] Agencies as change agents

[13:39] Strategy drives the proposition

[14:54] Relevance through differentiation

[19:20] Power in the collective

[25:01] Bringing 'Nothing Is Impossible' back

[29:40] Inclusivity over sub tribes

[30:20] Creating a 'We' culture

MORE ABOUT CLAIRE:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/claire-hollands

Website: saatchi.co.uk

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guests are Eric Segal and Brett Banker, Co-Founders of X&O – the sprint-based agency with an expert-only model, bringing together specialist talent to solve client challenges in double quick time.

Drawing on more than 20 years leading teams inside traditional agencies, they share why they chose not to replicate what exists, but to rethink how the work gets done.

Brett and Eric explore the shift from selling time to selling outcomes, why conviction matters more than compromise when defining a commercial model, and how freeing experts from meetings, multitasking and management responsibilities unlocks better thinking.

They also discuss the future of agency talent, arguing that the industry's best people shouldn't have to leave the work they love behind simply to climb the career ladder.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[01:45] A new model agency

[07:55] The winds of change

[10:27] Solving problems

[13:14] Specificity over availability

[20:21] Consistency builds trust

[28:34] Climbing the wrong ladder

[32:30] The C-suite’s secret weapon

[37:35] No long game

[42:24] Conviction over consensus

MORE ABOUT ERIC & BRETT:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/eric-segal

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/brett-banker

Website: heyxo.co

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guest is Sam Hawkey, CEO EMEA at Digitas and former CEO of both Saatchi & Saatchi and AMV BBDO. He shares his perspective on how clients and agencies must evolve together.

He talks about prioritising genuine client fit – getting beyond the excitement to really understanding the likelihood of working well together. Sam unpacks his two most important criteria – the client's readiness for change and their willingness to adopt new commercial models.

He also talks about the impact of genuine differentiation, as well as how Digitas promise and then deliver on outcomes, enabling clients to pay them in modern and progressive ways.

Practical, optimistic and grounded in experience, this is a thoughtful conversation about building stronger client relationships and a more sustainable agency future.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[04:00] From advertising to CX

[07:30] An orchestration mindset

[09:18] Preparing clients for change

[14:38] Expectations build trust

[17:29] Substance and charisma

[24:12] Knowing when to walk away

[29:18] Relationships change remuneration

[33:42] Creating pricing power

[37:25] Sharing responsibility for change

MORE ABOUT SAM:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/samhawkey

Website: digitas.com/en-ae

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

4As Blog: Before Reinventing Pricing, Agencies Must Reinvent Value

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guest is Michael Nyman, Founder and CEO of the Acceleration Community of Companies (ACC), an agency group designed specifically in response to the traditional holding company model.

Having spent his prior career within that model, Michael explains that clients now demand speed, specialist expertise and a deeper consumer insight. So rather than accepting internal competition, ACC is optimised for collaboration and an advisory-first approach that solves client problems before deciding how to execute them.

The conversation explores why organisational design has become a competitive advantage, how integrated teams can move faster, and why specialisation is mission-critical.

Michael also reflects on how his competitive set is evolving as ACC grows, offering a unique snapshot of a dynamic market and demonstrating why evolution is imperative for success.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[02:21] Building a ‘doing’ company

[04:38] Why stories matter

[09:13] A circular organisation

[13:21] Leading with advice

[17:27] Measuring collaboration

[22:17] The bundling effect

[28:22] Following client demand

[33:53] Finding your purpose

MORE ABOUT MICHAEL:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/michael-nyman

Website: accelerationcc.com

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today's guest is Patou Nuytemans, former CEO of Ogilvy EMEA, whose remarkable 30-year journey from intern to regional chief has given her a rare perspective on leadership, reinvention and the future of agencies.

Patou reflects candidly on the emotional reality of leaving the business that shaped her, explaining how heartbreak became gratitude and ultimately inspired a new chapter of reflection and writing.

She believes that agencies don't have a creativity problem, they have a value problem. Patou describes long-standing commercial weaknesses that make it essential for agencies to connect creativity with business impact, demonstrate value over capability, and rethink how they price their work.

Thoughtful, optimistic and deeply human, this is a compelling conversation about identity, leadership and why the agency industry's best days can still lie ahead.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[02:56] The pivot begins

[04:40] Sharing gratitude

[09:11] Finding purpose

[15:11] Learning through uncertainty

[19:07] How AI exposes truth

[25:55] Demonstrating real value

[29:39] Every conversation counts

[34:11] From services to solutions

[38:31] Back to marketing basics

[42:19] Owning the future

MORE ABOUT PATOU:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/patounuytemans

Substack: patoupivots.substack.com

MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

VoxComm Research: Redesigning the agency value model

Theo of Golden: amazon.com/Theo-Golden-Novel-Allen-Levi

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guest is Stuart Dunk, a former marketing procurement leader at the likes of Nike, Reckitt and Danone. He now runs his own consultancy, Don't Forget to Look.

Procurement remains one of the most misunderstood client-side functions. Stuart offers a rare insider’s perspective on what agencies get wrong and how they can engage more effectively with the people influencing buying decisions.

He explains why not all procurement professionals think alike, how agencies can diagnose procurement culture before entering a pitch, and when differentiation matters most. The conversation also explores specialist positioning, value-based selling and why agencies must build relationships earlier.

Insightful, generous and commercially astute, Stuart challenges common assumptions and offers a smarter approach to working with procurement professionals.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[02:30] 20 years of buying marketing

[05:19] Beyond procurement stereotypes

[09:09] Reading buying signals

[12:53] Where agencies have power

[19:03] The role of differentiation

[23:19] Winning every scorecard

[31:04] Staying curious

[32:43] Building pipeline differently

[40:24] Asking permission

MORE ABOUT STUART:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stuart-dunk-dftl

Website: dontforgettolook.com

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq

Today’s guest is John Connors, CEO of the Boston-based, full-service agency, Boathouse.

John argues that agencies have become too transactional, weakening client relationships as well as their impact on business outcomes. So he’s built a client-centric culture that deeply understands the drivers of commercial performance.

The conversation explores the disconnect between client-side CEOs and CMOs, and how to justify brand investment alongside digital media.

Thoughtful, practical and optimistic, this is a conversation about building trust, commercial credibility and brand value.

HIGHLIGHTS:

[03:54] Studying the CEO

[08:13] Execution over consultancy

[09:45] The CEO disconnect

[13:44] Halfway to transformation

[19:40] Map the revenue

[25:40] Partner vs employee mindset

[30:13] Relationships over transactions

[36:07] Anchored to the P&L

[39:23] The numbers behind AI

MORE ABOUT JOHN:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/john-connors

Website: boathouseinc.com

MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE:

Boathouse CEO research

Richard Huntington in Campaign: It's time to stop talking about “brand” and “creativity” (paywalled)

HOST SOCIALS:

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/robinbonn

Twitter: twitter.com/robonn

MORE ABOUT CO:DEFINERY:

Website: codefinery.com

Book: Market of One

Mentioned in this episode:

Get Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire

Is your agency  really as differentiated as you think? And have you fully embraced the commercial disruption that AI is bringing? To find out, take five minutes to complete Co:definery's diagnostic questionnaire. It's quick, free, and thought provoking, and you get a tailored report with practical guidance for sharpening your competitive edge.

Visit codefinery.com/dq