In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee welcomes back Dr. Will Willimon, former bishop in the United Methodist Church, professor at Duke Divinity School, and author of more than 70 books; for a candid conversation about his latest work, The Church We Carry: Loss, Leadership, and the Future of Our Church.

Drawing from the story of his own home congregation in South Carolina, Dr. Willimon reflects on the complex factors that led to church disaffiliation, the cultural loss of Christianity’s “home court advantage,” and the urgent need for pastors and church leaders to reclaim truth-telling and healthy debate.

Whether you’re a pastor, lay leader, or simply someone concerned about the trajectory of the church, this episode will challenge you to think more deeply about what it means to lead faithfully in an age of division and decline.

Why United Methodist decline goes beyond debates about inclusivity

The role of bishops, governance, and aging membership in shaping the schism

Why conflict avoidance damages the church—and how to recover the art of holy argument

How misinformation, gossip, and technology complicate communication in congregations

What hope looks like for pastors and churches facing uncertain futures

More Than Inclusivity – The United Methodist schism is more complex than debates about sexuality. Membership decline and governance failures set the stage long before disaffiliation.

The Need for Healthy Debate – Churches must recover the counter-cultural skill of debating faithfully. As Dr. Willimon reminded us, we should be able to argue passionately and still gather together at the Lord’s table.

Resisting Gossip and Lies – In an age of rumors, conspiracies, and viral misinformation, truth-telling has never been harder, or more essential. Pastors and congregations must commit to honest, transparent communication that resists the lure of gossip.

📖 Pick up Dr. Willimon’s book The Church We Carry: Loss, Leadership, and the Future of Our Church.

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt talks with Joshua Gordon, pastor and author of How to Close a Church: Seven Steps to a Grace-Filled and Thoughtful Closing. Josh shares his story of serving at a church that eventually closed, what he learned from later shutting down his own ministry, and how endings, while painful, can become opportunities for healing and renewal.

Together, they explore what many pastors avoid: the spiritual and pastoral side of church closure. Josh reminds us that while the technical steps of dissolving a congregation may be straightforward, the true work lies in shepherding people through grief, offering rest, and learning to trust that Jesus, not us, is building His church.

Closure is Pastoral, Not Just Technical – Closing a church requires more than handling property and finances. Leaders must guide people through grief and help them see closure as a spiritual decision.

Honest Assessment is Crucial – Churches need the courage to evaluate leadership energy, congregational will, and systemic health. Without that honesty, revitalization efforts will fall flat.

Rest is Part of Faithfulness – After a closure, leaders and members alike should resist the urge to immediately serve again. Time for healing and recovery is essential to move into future ministry in a healthy way.

Read Josh Gordon’s article: How to Close a Church: Seven Steps to a Grace-Filled and Thoughtful Closing

Connect with Josh Gordon: theleadpastor.com | Email: [email protected]

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee is joined by Rick Reinhard—consultant, urban planner, and national thought leader on the redevelopment of faith-based properties. Together, they dive deep into the reality behind the wave of church closures sweeping across North America and explore what congregations and communities can do before it’s too late.

Rick shares his insights from decades of work in municipal planning, denominational strategy, and property reuse. From deferred maintenance and financial transparency to zoning laws and community partnerships, this conversation offers both sobering truths and practical hope.

Whether you’re a pastor, church board member, city planner, or nonprofit leader, this episode will change how you think about the future of church buildings—and the mission they were built to serve.

Why up to 100,000 churches may close in the next 20 years

How deferred maintenance and denial quietly destroy congregations

What churches can do now to redevelop or repurpose their property

Why cities, counties, and community foundations must get involved

What “YIGBY: Yes In God’s Backyard” means for affordable housing and church land

Real-world examples of successful property reuse from around the country

“Tsunami of Church Closures” article by Rick Reinhard

"Affordable Housing: YIGBY (“Yes in God’s Backyard”) Movement Seeks to Counter NIMBY Movement" by Rick Reinhard

Gone for Good by Mark Elsdon

Rick Reinhard is the founder of Niagara Consulting Group, a consulting firm that helps municipalities, denominations, and nonprofits navigate the complex world of church property redevelopment. He has served as Chief of Staff to the Mayor of Buffalo, worked for the United Methodist Church’s social justice agency, and chaired a national HUD working group on vacant religious properties.

If this conversation sparked new ideas or challenged your assumptions, please rate and review the show—and share it with pastors, city officials, or anyone facing questions about the future of sacred spaces.

Matt sits down with beloved preacher, bishop, and author Dr. Will Willimon to talk about what it means for churches to age gracefully—and even die faithfully. Drawing on decades of ministry, Willimon unpacks the crisis and opportunity of aging congregations, shares compelling stories of churches handing off their legacy, and invites us to rethink what “decline” really means.

What You’ll Learn:

Why the church's aging population is both a challenge and an opportunity

How congregations facing closure can do so with dignity and hope

The essential role of elders in mentoring, ministry, and legacy

How to tell the truth about decline without giving into despair

Real stories of transformation from dying churches that gave away their buildings, responsibilities, and mission to the next generation

Resources:

All of Dr. Willimon's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001IGHNA0

Aging (Pastoring for Life: Theological Wisdom for Ministering Well): Growing Old in Church

Dr. Willimon's Faculty Page at Duke Divinity School

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In this insightful and heartfelt episode, Matt welcomes campus minister and author Casey Coston to discuss the challenges and beauty of a life spent in ministry. With over two decades of experience—from Ole Miss to the University of Delaware—Casey shares the inspiration behind his book Made Competent, and opens up about the trials of leadership, church decline, bivocational ministry, and maintaining authenticity amidst cultural and institutional shifts.

Whether you’re a ministry leader, a member of a shrinking church, or someone navigating the complexities of calling and burnout, this episode offers wisdom, encouragement, and practical takeaways.

Why attractional ministry models often fail to engage non-Christians—and what works better

The unique challenges of campus ministry and why seminary often doesn’t prepare you for them

How churches can better support their ministers through family crises and emotional burnout

The spiritual and emotional journey behind Made Competent and the value of long-term journaling

Reframing failure in ministry through a lens of faithfulness and identity in Christ

Shift from Attractional to Relational Ministry

Reframe Decline with a Missionary Mindset

Support Ministers with Tangible Care

Made Competent by Casey Coston (available on Amazon, Walmart, and Kharis Publishing)

The God Ask by Steve Shadrach – a practical guide to support raising in ministry

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Bruce Deel, CEO of City of Refuge, to explore an extraordinary story of transformation. Originally tasked with closing Mission Church at 14th Street, Bruce found himself in the midst of a divine calling to revitalize the church into a thriving ministry center. Discover how compassion, trust, and a willingness to adapt led to a vibrant community that continues to serve Atlanta's most vulnerable populations.

3 Key Takeaways:

Embrace the Unexpected: Sometimes what feels like the end is just the beginning of a divine redirection. Bruce Deel walked into Mission Church expecting to close its doors, but instead, God revealed the needs of the community right outside their door. If your church feels like it's in its final chapter, don't underestimate the power of a single act of obedience or a moment of compassion. 

Be with and choose to trust first: ministry often lies beyond the walls of comfort. Bruce and his family moved into a 65-year-old church building to live among those they served. His story is a powerful reminder that loving people where they are—and showing up every day with open hearts—can ignite the kind of transformation that brings new life to a church.

Redefine Church Through Acts of Compassion: When Mission Church shifted its focus from traditional services to meeting the practical needs of the hurting, it blossomed into a beacon of hope. They attracted new members by meeting needs rather than new worship or programs. For churches struggling to find their way, the answer might not be in the next program or a new strategy but in stepping into the mess of real life, offering a meal, a bed, a prayer—creating a space where the vulnerable and the broken are welcome.  That sort of crowd may not be able to tithe much, but if your church is on the brink of closure... what do you have to lose?

Resources:

www.cityofrefugeatl.org

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, author and speaker Michelle Van Loon discusses the realities of church closures, the challenges of leadership, and how congregations can embrace endings with faith and wisdom. Michelle shares insights from her Plough article "A Good Death for Dying Churches" and her personal experiences with church transitions, including the closure of Grace Bible Fellowship.

Three Key Takeaways:

1️⃣ Prioritize Discipleship Over Mere Survival – Michelle emphasizes that churches facing closure should focus on shepherding their members through the transition, viewing the process as an opportunity for discipleship rather than solely striving to keep the institution alive.

2️⃣ Church Self-Awareness Matters—Some churches are founded on a reaction to past experiences rather than a sustainable vision. Grace Bible Fellowship's close friendships, relational style, and consensus decision-making were in stark contrast to its abrupt ending.

3️⃣ Closure Needs Pastoral Care – Ending a church should be a deeply intentional and pastoral process, not a rushed decision. Grieving members need guidance, and there are growing resources to help communities close well.

🔗 Learn more about Michelle’s work at MichelleVanLoon.com and explore her reflections on church transitions in her Plough article: "A Good Death for Dying Churches".

🎧 Listen in as we discuss how churches can navigate the end of their life cycle with grace, care, and discipleship at the center.

#ChurchLeadership #Discipleship #ChurchClosure #FaithfulEndings #MichelleVanLoon #TheLastServicePodcast

In this episode of the Last Service Podcast, Matt welcomes Sam Rainer, pastor, church consultant, and president of Church Answers, for a candid discussion about the state of the American church. Together, they explore the challenges facing congregations today, from declining membership to generational shifts in engagement. Sam shares actionable insights on how churches can revitalize, stay relevant, and impact their local communities. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or member, this episode is packed with wisdom to inspire and guide your ministry.

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💡 Why Listen

In this powerful season finale, Matt sits down with the legendary religion news reporter and author Bob Smietana to explore the pressing realities facing churches today. From demographic shifts to the challenges of revitalization, Bob shares insights from his acclaimed book, Reorganized Religion, and personal experiences with church closures. This episode is packed with heartfelt stories, actionable insights, and a message of hope for communities navigating change.

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3 Key Takeaways:

1. churches are closing mainly due to changes in demographics and society.  What worked to grow churches in prior decades no longer works, and it is often difficult for churches with older buildings to adapt to a new environment.

2. It's better when a church's building, property, and assets stay connected to the mission when transferring ownership.

3. Bob reports on and has written about many churches that have closed.  When he and his wife experienced a closing with the congregation they cared about, they experienced a sense of loss and grief.  But they also felt sent forth by a community that helped shape their lives.  Maybe a church can still be about sending long after it has stopped being able to bring people into a building.

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Share this episode with friends and fellow churchgoers to spark meaningful conversations about the future of faith communities.