Matt sits down with beloved preacher, bishop, and author Dr. Will Willimon to talk about what it means for churches to age gracefully—and even die faithfully. Drawing on decades of ministry, Willimon unpacks the crisis and opportunity of aging congregations, shares compelling stories of churches handing off their legacy, and invites us to rethink what “decline” really means.

What You’ll Learn:

Why the church's aging population is both a challenge and an opportunity

How congregations facing closure can do so with dignity and hope

The essential role of elders in mentoring, ministry, and legacy

How to tell the truth about decline without giving into despair

Real stories of transformation from dying churches that gave away their buildings, responsibilities, and mission to the next generation

Resources:

All of Dr. Willimon's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001IGHNA0

Aging (Pastoring for Life: Theological Wisdom for Ministering Well): Growing Old in Church

Dr. Willimon's Faculty Page at Duke Divinity School

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In this insightful and heartfelt episode, Matt welcomes campus minister and author Casey Coston to discuss the challenges and beauty of a life spent in ministry. With over two decades of experience—from Ole Miss to the University of Delaware—Casey shares the inspiration behind his book Made Competent, and opens up about the trials of leadership, church decline, bivocational ministry, and maintaining authenticity amidst cultural and institutional shifts.

Whether you’re a ministry leader, a member of a shrinking church, or someone navigating the complexities of calling and burnout, this episode offers wisdom, encouragement, and practical takeaways.

Why attractional ministry models often fail to engage non-Christians—and what works better

The unique challenges of campus ministry and why seminary often doesn’t prepare you for them

How churches can better support their ministers through family crises and emotional burnout

The spiritual and emotional journey behind Made Competent and the value of long-term journaling

Reframing failure in ministry through a lens of faithfulness and identity in Christ

Shift from Attractional to Relational Ministry

Reframe Decline with a Missionary Mindset

Support Ministers with Tangible Care

Made Competent by Casey Coston (available on Amazon, Walmart, and Kharis Publishing)

The God Ask by Steve Shadrach – a practical guide to support raising in ministry

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Bruce Deel, CEO of City of Refuge, to explore an extraordinary story of transformation. Originally tasked with closing Mission Church at 14th Street, Bruce found himself in the midst of a divine calling to revitalize the church into a thriving ministry center. Discover how compassion, trust, and a willingness to adapt led to a vibrant community that continues to serve Atlanta's most vulnerable populations.

3 Key Takeaways:

Embrace the Unexpected: Sometimes what feels like the end is just the beginning of a divine redirection. Bruce Deel walked into Mission Church expecting to close its doors, but instead, God revealed the needs of the community right outside their door. If your church feels like it's in its final chapter, don't underestimate the power of a single act of obedience or a moment of compassion. 

Be with and choose to trust first: ministry often lies beyond the walls of comfort. Bruce and his family moved into a 65-year-old church building to live among those they served. His story is a powerful reminder that loving people where they are—and showing up every day with open hearts—can ignite the kind of transformation that brings new life to a church.

Redefine Church Through Acts of Compassion: When Mission Church shifted its focus from traditional services to meeting the practical needs of the hurting, it blossomed into a beacon of hope. They attracted new members by meeting needs rather than new worship or programs. For churches struggling to find their way, the answer might not be in the next program or a new strategy but in stepping into the mess of real life, offering a meal, a bed, a prayer—creating a space where the vulnerable and the broken are welcome.  That sort of crowd may not be able to tithe much, but if your church is on the brink of closure... what do you have to lose?

Resources:

www.cityofrefugeatl.org

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, author and speaker Michelle Van Loon discusses the realities of church closures, the challenges of leadership, and how congregations can embrace endings with faith and wisdom. Michelle shares insights from her Plough article "A Good Death for Dying Churches" and her personal experiences with church transitions, including the closure of Grace Bible Fellowship.

Three Key Takeaways:

1️⃣ Prioritize Discipleship Over Mere Survival – Michelle emphasizes that churches facing closure should focus on shepherding their members through the transition, viewing the process as an opportunity for discipleship rather than solely striving to keep the institution alive.

2️⃣ Church Self-Awareness Matters—Some churches are founded on a reaction to past experiences rather than a sustainable vision. Grace Bible Fellowship's close friendships, relational style, and consensus decision-making were in stark contrast to its abrupt ending.

3️⃣ Closure Needs Pastoral Care – Ending a church should be a deeply intentional and pastoral process, not a rushed decision. Grieving members need guidance, and there are growing resources to help communities close well.

🔗 Learn more about Michelle’s work at MichelleVanLoon.com and explore her reflections on church transitions in her Plough article: "A Good Death for Dying Churches".

🎧 Listen in as we discuss how churches can navigate the end of their life cycle with grace, care, and discipleship at the center.

#ChurchLeadership #Discipleship #ChurchClosure #FaithfulEndings #MichelleVanLoon #TheLastServicePodcast

In this episode of the Last Service Podcast, Matt welcomes Sam Rainer, pastor, church consultant, and president of Church Answers, for a candid discussion about the state of the American church. Together, they explore the challenges facing congregations today, from declining membership to generational shifts in engagement. Sam shares actionable insights on how churches can revitalize, stay relevant, and impact their local communities. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or member, this episode is packed with wisdom to inspire and guide your ministry.

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💡 Why Listen

In this powerful season finale, Matt sits down with the legendary religion news reporter and author Bob Smietana to explore the pressing realities facing churches today. From demographic shifts to the challenges of revitalization, Bob shares insights from his acclaimed book, Reorganized Religion, and personal experiences with church closures. This episode is packed with heartfelt stories, actionable insights, and a message of hope for communities navigating change.

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3 Key Takeaways:

1. churches are closing mainly due to changes in demographics and society.  What worked to grow churches in prior decades no longer works, and it is often difficult for churches with older buildings to adapt to a new environment.

2. It's better when a church's building, property, and assets stay connected to the mission when transferring ownership.

3. Bob reports on and has written about many churches that have closed.  When he and his wife experienced a closing with the congregation they cared about, they experienced a sense of loss and grief.  But they also felt sent forth by a community that helped shape their lives.  Maybe a church can still be about sending long after it has stopped being able to bring people into a building.

Resources Mentioned:

Share this episode with friends and fellow churchgoers to spark meaningful conversations about the future of faith communities.

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt dives into a conversation with Reverend Dr. Katie Nix and Reverend Dr. Phil Blackwell, pastors who led two congregations through a unique journey of merger and renewal. They share the incredible challenges and blessings of bringing together two legacy churches into a unified, mission-focused community. This merger took place amidst the complexities of the pandemic, highlighting the resilience, adaptability, and faith that fueled their journey.

Dr. Nix and Dr. Blackwell explore what they learned in this process, from honoring each congregation's history to forging a shared vision for the future. They discuss practical insights into measuring success beyond traditional metrics, fostering a welcoming environment, and asking questions that prompt creative, forward-thinking ministry. Their story offers inspiring takeaways for church leaders, members, and anyone invested in the future of faith communities.

Embrace Legacy with Purpose – The success of University and Grace UMC's merger hinged on respecting the legacies of each congregation while building a unified identity that serves both past and future communities.

Measure Success Beyond Numbers – Traditional metrics like attendance are important but don't paint the whole picture; focus also on creating spaces for spiritual growth, and meaningful community impact.

Ask Courageous Questions for Renewal – Continuously revisit your church's mission and ask, "What is God calling us to do next?" Embracing imagination and openness can reveal new paths for ministry and outreach.

Listen to The Doctors are In and the story of Grace UMC's merger with University UMC here:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-doctors-are-in/id1706168185

https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kathryn-nix/episodes/The-Doctors-Are-In--S3-E2-A-Pastors-Perspective-on-Our-Church-Merger-e2q3mt6

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, we dive into the profound journey of pastoral transitions with Matt Davis, host of the Life After Ministry Podcast. Matt shares his personal experiences of stepping away from ministry after a moral failure and navigating life outside the church. This episode explores the emotional and logistical challenges pastors face when leaving a church and provides guidance on managing these transitions with grace and support. Davis's story is a testament to resilience and purpose, reminding us that even in difficult seasons, there is potential for growth and reorientation.

Key Takeaways:

• Creating Compassionate Exits – Matt emphasizes that churches must prioritize compassion and dignity during pastoral exits, advocating for "kingdom outplacement." By offering structured support like coaching, counseling, and resume assistance, churches can model Christ-like love and compassion in difficult seasons.

Provide Financial and Emotional Support – Financial insecurity frequently accompanies pastoral exits, leaving pastors in challenging positions when they are let go or the church closes. Be generous with severance and communicate with compassion. 

The value of third party help - Difficult transitions for pastors or congregations at the end of their life can benefit from third party wisdom and guidance.  Bringing in a third party, like Pastoral Transitions, demonstrates a commitment to all people involved and a determination to end well.

• The spiritual struggle pastors face in redefining their sense of calling

www.pastoraltransitions.com

Life After Ministry Podcast

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt continues his conversation with Reverend Lorrin Radzik as they explore the complexities of church closures. Lorrin shares her personal journey of closing multiple churches and the unique challenges faced when congregations are forced to confront their own mortality. Together, they dive into how pastors can lead through difficult decisions, the role of a daycare ministry, and the emotional toll of these transitions. Yet amidst the grief, Lorrin uncovers the hopeful message of resurrection within the church’s final days.

Listeners will be inspired by the candid discussion of what it means to lead faithfully, even when the end is near, and how to embrace new beginnings in unexpected places.

Key Takeaways:

1. Resurrection Beyond Closure: Lorrin explains that even when churches close, their ministry can live on through community connections, spiritual legacies, and even new congregations inhabiting former spaces.