The Last Service Podcast

What does it look like when a church ends well? In this episode of the Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee sits down with Pastor Sara Olson-Smith, author of Eulogy for a Faithful Church, to tell the story of St. Peter Lutheran Church in North Plainfield, New Jersey. Sara was St. Peter's final pastor, arriving fresh out of seminary only to walk her congregation through one of the most spiritually demanding journeys a church community can face: a courageous, faithful ending.

From a congregation founded by German immigrants in the late 1800s, to a rotating homeless shelter ministry and refugee resettlement work, to a final vote to close on All Saints Day 2009. This is not a story of failure. It's a story of faithfulness.

Pastor Sara Olson-Smith is an ELCA pastor currently serving St. Paul Lutheran Church in Davenport, Iowa. She is the author of Eulogy for a Faithful Church: The Story of a Congregation's Courageous Ending and Enduring Legacy, available wherever books are sold online. Connect with her at saraolsonsmith.com and find her children's podcast Little Bird and Jesus through St. Paul Lutheran's website at saintpaulqc.org.

1. Let your governing structures carry the logistics. The ELCA synod handled St. Peter's property sale and legacy distribution while the congregation focused on spiritual discernment. If your church doesn't have this kind of structure, consider outsourcing the transactional work to trusted professionals so your people can focus on what matters most.

2. Read the exhaustion in your people — and meet it with grace. Pastor Olson-Smith recognized a congregation that wanted to be faithful but lacked the means and energy to continue in its current form. She didn't shame them or push for renewal. She accepted where they were and opened space for honest conversation.

3. Shepherd your people all the way to the next pasture. Pastor Olson-Smith met individually with every member, connected them to new congregations, and made sure no one was left without a place to land. Simple as it sounds, this kind of care may be the clearest mark of a good last pastor.

#ChurchClosure #EndingWell #LastServicePodcast #FaithfulChurch #ChurchLeadership #ELCA #PastorLife #CongregationalLife #ChurchHistory #EulogyForAFaithfulChurch

Episode Overview

What do you do when your church's budget doesn't match its values? Pastor Kevin Boyd of Legacy Church in Plano, Texas faced exactly that tension. With 36–42% of the budget going to facility overhead and only 14–17% to mission and ministry, something had to change. Rather than slowly adjusting line items over a decade, Pastor Boyd made a bold move: swap buildings with a neighboring church. In this episode, he walks us through how that decision was made, how it was executed, and what Legacy Church looks like on the other side.

In This Episode

Pastor Boyd arrived at Legacy Church in 2013 and quickly noticed a misalignment between the church's mission-centered identity and where its money was actually going. The church had embraced a vision of making missionaries — not just attendees — but nearly 40% of the budget was consumed by a massive facility and its accompanying debt. After a season of prayerful discernment and strategic vision dinners with the congregation, he decided to pursue a dramatic realignment rather than a slow drift.

He reached out cold to a neighboring pastor he respected — no setup, no lead-up — and simply said he wanted to buy their building and sell them his. Within an hour, that pastor and his elders were in Boyd's office praying together. Within two weeks, Church Realty's John Muzyka was at the table helping both churches navigate the financial and logistical complexities of what turned out to be a multi-million dollar transaction between two unequal properties.

The deal wasn't without friction. There were tough conversations about appraisal gaps, unexpected repair requests, and the challenge of making sure both congregations heard a unified story — not two competing narratives. But both churches voted to affirm the agreement, each at above 97% approval, and the transition from last service in the old building to first service in the new one took just one week.

The Numbers

Before the transition, Legacy Church's budget looked like this:

After the transition, the picture is dramatically different:

From the proceeds of the property transaction, Legacy Church:

Mission Impact Since the Move

Key Takeaways

#1 — The building is a tool, not a trophy. Pastor Boyd refused to view empty seats as failure. Instead, he asked a more strategic question: is this building the right tool for our mission? That reframe changed everything about how his church approached the decision.

#2 — Wise leadership seeks counsel and negotiates with integrity. He didn't go it alone. Pastor Boyd sought outside perspective and was willing to have honest, direct conversations with another ministry — working toward an outcome that was fair and wise for everyone involved.

#3 — Vision turns downsizing into a decision. Rather than framing the move as retreat or defeat, Pastor Boyd cast a clear vision: right-sizing their facility meant more resources freed up for actual mission work. He aligned the church's finances with its calling and identity — and made clear that their identity was never in the building to begin with.

Notable Quote

"We could have lived out the rest of our life until Jesus returns in that facility — but we wouldn't have had a budget that aligned with our values. Ours was a strategic move to be more aligned with who God called us to be." — Pastor Kevin Boyd

Resources & Links

As Season Two of The Last Service Podcast comes to a close, host Matt McGee sits down for a relaxed, wide-ranging “potluck conversation” with pastor, veteran, and discipleship leader James Floyd. This episode blends humor, hard-won wisdom, and deep theological reflection as they explore failure, identity, finishing well, church decline, and what it really means to follow Jesus beyond platforms and programs.

James shares his journey from military service to ministry, his leap into faith-based entrepreneurship, and the formation of his men’s discipleship work and Substack Jesus for Breakfast. Together, Matt and James reflect on why failure is often where God does His most formative work, why churches struggle with endings, and how discipleship—not branding—remains the heart of a faithful church.

This episode is especially meaningful for pastors, church leaders, and Christians navigating seasons of transition, decline, or uncertainty, offering hope rooted not in outcomes, but in intimacy with God.

Faith, failure, and identity beyond success

Lessons from military leadership and ministry

Why men often tie identity to work and results

What it means to “finish well” as a Christian

Church decline, consolidation, and discipleship models

Letting go of control and trusting God with outcomes

Why discipleship is slow, costly, and essential

Faithfulness in ordinary life: work, family, and service

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Rev. Nancy Dolan, a Presbyterian pastor with 20+ years of corporate HR/organizational development experience, to walk through the remarkable and deeply pastoral journey of helping Kirk of the Lakes—a once-thriving suburban congregation—discern its future with honesty, courage, and hope.

Nancy tells the full story: from the church’s suburban boom in the 1960s, to its relationally rich glory days in the 70s and 80s, through decades of decline, and finally to its faithful and spiritually grounded decision to close. Through it all, she models how pastoral presence, deep listening, and a relentless attentiveness to God’s activity can shepherd a congregation through some of its most tender moments.

Whether you’re a pastor, denominational leader, or lay elder navigating transition, this episode offers both practical guidance and spiritual encouragement.

Nancy approached a conflicted, anxious congregation with open hands, listening deeply and consistently asking, “What is God doing here?” This posture kept discipleship at the center of every decision the Church faced, communicating that God had not abandoned this congregation even in seasons of stagnation, loss, and confusion about purpose.

Nancy did not enter with a plan. She entered with curiosity, presence, and relationship-building. She listened, visited homes, learned the stories, and gained trust. Instead of technical fixes, she grounded the church in prayer, Scripture, and emotional/spiritual health. Her leadership demonstrates that churches in transition need a shepherd more than a strategist.

Years before they closed, the congregation began a structured process of assessment and discernment. Because they started early, they were able to explore multiple possibilities, not just closure. So when closing ultimately became the faithful choice, it felt like a wisely discerned conclusion, not a failure or collapse.

The “glory days” of Kirk of the Lakes: rich relationships, young families, deep community life—not just programs.

Why decline set in: pastoral turnover, unaddressed conflict, an outdated ministry model, and anxiety-driven decision-making.

How Nancy built trust: listening without judgment, acknowledging fears, and committing to spiritual growth regardless of the outcome.

The discernment process: case studies, asset mapping, prayer teams, and honest assessment of congregational energy.

When the high school next door offered to buy the building: how this clarified mission and stewardship.

Why the congregation chose closure despite having financial runway: they recognized they had resources but not the human energy to continue mission.

Legacy work: how the congregation’s final gifts created mental health services, sensory rooms, clothing ministries, and ongoing community impact.

Shepherding people into new church homes: “send-out Sundays” helped members join other congregations before the final service.

The last service and legacy service: grief, gospel, memory, and resurrection hope intertwined.

This conversation offers pastors, sessions, and church leaders a real-life picture of how gospel hope can guide even the hardest congregational decisions. It re-centers the conversation around spiritual formation, relational leadership, and discerning God’s new work, rather than simply managing decline.

If your church is navigating questions of vitality, mission, property, or legacy, this episode is a must-listen.

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee sits down with songwriter, producer, and author Andrew Osenga to explore what decades of touring, worship leading, and church observation have taught him about the American church’s changing landscape.

Osenga reflects on thirty years of visiting more than a thousand congregations—from small rural Bible churches to sprawling suburban campuses—and what he’s learned about conflict, consumerism, and community. Together, he and Matt unpack how the forces shaping our sanctuaries mirror the forces shaping our cities.

1. Conflict is necessary for health.

2. The Amazonification of churches is hollowing out communities.

3. We lack the vocabulary to talk about endings.

This conversation invites pastors, denominational leaders, and everyday church members to see endings not as failures, but as sacred transitions. If your congregation is wrestling with decline, conflict, or questions of sustainability, Osenga’s reflections offer language—and hope—for walking that road faithfully.

"The Amazonification of the Local Church" on Andrew Osenga's Substack

 http://www.andrewosenga.com/

Order Andrew Osenga's new book: How to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to an Authentic Faith

"Expectations" by Andrew Osenga

The Pivot with Andrew Osenga

Hutchmoot

Sticky Faith, Fuller Youth Institute

Ryan Burge / Graphs About Religion

AWANA Clubs

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee welcomes back Dr. Will Willimon, former bishop in the United Methodist Church, professor at Duke Divinity School, and author of more than 70 books; for a candid conversation about his latest work, The Church We Carry: Loss, Leadership, and the Future of Our Church.

Drawing from the story of his own home congregation in South Carolina, Dr. Willimon reflects on the complex factors that led to church disaffiliation, the cultural loss of Christianity’s “home court advantage,” and the urgent need for pastors and church leaders to reclaim truth-telling and healthy debate.

Whether you’re a pastor, lay leader, or simply someone concerned about the trajectory of the church, this episode will challenge you to think more deeply about what it means to lead faithfully in an age of division and decline.

Why United Methodist decline goes beyond debates about inclusivity

The role of bishops, governance, and aging membership in shaping the schism

Why conflict avoidance damages the church—and how to recover the art of holy argument

How misinformation, gossip, and technology complicate communication in congregations

What hope looks like for pastors and churches facing uncertain futures

More Than Inclusivity – The United Methodist schism is more complex than debates about sexuality. Membership decline and governance failures set the stage long before disaffiliation.

The Need for Healthy Debate – Churches must recover the counter-cultural skill of debating faithfully. As Dr. Willimon reminded us, we should be able to argue passionately and still gather together at the Lord’s table.

Resisting Gossip and Lies – In an age of rumors, conspiracies, and viral misinformation, truth-telling has never been harder, or more essential. Pastors and congregations must commit to honest, transparent communication that resists the lure of gossip.

📖 Pick up Dr. Willimon’s book The Church We Carry: Loss, Leadership, and the Future of Our Church.

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt talks with Joshua Gordon, pastor and author of How to Close a Church: Seven Steps to a Grace-Filled and Thoughtful Closing. Josh shares his story of serving at a church that eventually closed, what he learned from later shutting down his own ministry, and how endings, while painful, can become opportunities for healing and renewal.

Together, they explore what many pastors avoid: the spiritual and pastoral side of church closure. Josh reminds us that while the technical steps of dissolving a congregation may be straightforward, the true work lies in shepherding people through grief, offering rest, and learning to trust that Jesus, not us, is building His church.

Closure is Pastoral, Not Just Technical – Closing a church requires more than handling property and finances. Leaders must guide people through grief and help them see closure as a spiritual decision.

Honest Assessment is Crucial – Churches need the courage to evaluate leadership energy, congregational will, and systemic health. Without that honesty, revitalization efforts will fall flat.

Rest is Part of Faithfulness – After a closure, leaders and members alike should resist the urge to immediately serve again. Time for healing and recovery is essential to move into future ministry in a healthy way.

Read Josh Gordon’s article: How to Close a Church: Seven Steps to a Grace-Filled and Thoughtful Closing

Connect with Josh Gordon: theleadpastor.com | Email: [email protected]

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee is joined by Rick Reinhard—consultant, urban planner, and national thought leader on the redevelopment of faith-based properties. Together, they dive deep into the reality behind the wave of church closures sweeping across North America and explore what congregations and communities can do before it’s too late.

Rick shares his insights from decades of work in municipal planning, denominational strategy, and property reuse. From deferred maintenance and financial transparency to zoning laws and community partnerships, this conversation offers both sobering truths and practical hope.

Whether you’re a pastor, church board member, city planner, or nonprofit leader, this episode will change how you think about the future of church buildings—and the mission they were built to serve.

Why up to 100,000 churches may close in the next 20 years

How deferred maintenance and denial quietly destroy congregations

What churches can do now to redevelop or repurpose their property

Why cities, counties, and community foundations must get involved

What “YIGBY: Yes In God’s Backyard” means for affordable housing and church land

Real-world examples of successful property reuse from around the country

“Tsunami of Church Closures” article by Rick Reinhard

"Affordable Housing: YIGBY (“Yes in God’s Backyard”) Movement Seeks to Counter NIMBY Movement" by Rick Reinhard

Gone for Good by Mark Elsdon

Rick Reinhard is the founder of Niagara Consulting Group, a consulting firm that helps municipalities, denominations, and nonprofits navigate the complex world of church property redevelopment. He has served as Chief of Staff to the Mayor of Buffalo, worked for the United Methodist Church’s social justice agency, and chaired a national HUD working group on vacant religious properties.

If this conversation sparked new ideas or challenged your assumptions, please rate and review the show—and share it with pastors, city officials, or anyone facing questions about the future of sacred spaces.

Matt sits down with beloved preacher, bishop, and author Dr. Will Willimon to talk about what it means for churches to age gracefully—and even die faithfully. Drawing on decades of ministry, Willimon unpacks the crisis and opportunity of aging congregations, shares compelling stories of churches handing off their legacy, and invites us to rethink what “decline” really means.

What You’ll Learn:

Why the church's aging population is both a challenge and an opportunity

How congregations facing closure can do so with dignity and hope

The essential role of elders in mentoring, ministry, and legacy

How to tell the truth about decline without giving into despair

Real stories of transformation from dying churches that gave away their buildings, responsibilities, and mission to the next generation

Resources:

All of Dr. Willimon's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001IGHNA0

Aging (Pastoring for Life: Theological Wisdom for Ministering Well): Growing Old in Church

Dr. Willimon's Faculty Page at Duke Divinity School

Keywords:

In this insightful and heartfelt episode, Matt welcomes campus minister and author Casey Coston to discuss the challenges and beauty of a life spent in ministry. With over two decades of experience—from Ole Miss to the University of Delaware—Casey shares the inspiration behind his book Made Competent, and opens up about the trials of leadership, church decline, bivocational ministry, and maintaining authenticity amidst cultural and institutional shifts.

Whether you’re a ministry leader, a member of a shrinking church, or someone navigating the complexities of calling and burnout, this episode offers wisdom, encouragement, and practical takeaways.

Why attractional ministry models often fail to engage non-Christians—and what works better

The unique challenges of campus ministry and why seminary often doesn’t prepare you for them

How churches can better support their ministers through family crises and emotional burnout

The spiritual and emotional journey behind Made Competent and the value of long-term journaling

Reframing failure in ministry through a lens of faithfulness and identity in Christ

Shift from Attractional to Relational Ministry

Reframe Decline with a Missionary Mindset

Support Ministers with Tangible Care

Made Competent by Casey Coston (available on Amazon, Walmart, and Kharis Publishing)

The God Ask by Steve Shadrach – a practical guide to support raising in ministry