The Last Service Podcast

In this raw and insightful episode, Matt sits down with Rev. Lorrin Radzik, a United Methodist pastor with a powerful story of navigating the complexities of ministry, church closure, and personal growth. Lorrin shares her experience leading a struggling congregation in Wisconsin, where she guided the church through the challenging decision to close after decades of decline. Her journey, filled with difficult conversations, resilience, and ultimate closure, offers deep insights into the reality of pastoral leadership and church vitality.

Key Takeaways:

The Impact on Pastors

Leading with Transparency and Courage

Closure as a Faithful Decision

Resources:

http://www.revlorrinradzik.com/

https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/

https://nationalhmongcaucusumc.weebly.com/

In this compelling episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dave Meserve, an experienced transitional pastor who has guided multiple churches through the difficult process of closing. Dave shares powerful stories and invaluable insights on how to approach church closures with compassion, wisdom, and a focus on spiritual health.

Key Points:

• Dave's unique journey from traditional ministry to becoming a "pastor at large" and transitional leader

Quotes: "Don't leave before the benediction - there's a blessing if you stay to the end." - Dave Meserve "Churches have lifespans. They have beginnings, long middles we hope, and ends." - Dave Meserve

Keywords: church closure, transitional pastor, faith ceiling, non-denominational churches, church leadership, pastoral care, church ceremonies, spiritual health, church size dynamics, diverse leadership, church lifespan

This episode offers essential guidance for church leaders, pastors, and congregants facing potential church closures or significant transitions. Dave Meserve's experiences provide a roadmap for approaching these challenging situations with grace, intentionality, and a focus on long-term spiritual wellbeing.

In this episode, host Matt interviews Gail Cafferata, author of "The Last Pastor" and a retired Episcopal priest who closed a church. Gail shares her personal experience closing a congregation and insights from her research surveying over 100 pastors who have gone through church closures.

Key topics discussed:

3 Key Takeaways:

1. Closing a church takes a significant emotional and career toll on pastors, with many experiencing stress, isolation, and difficulty finding new positions afterward.

2. "Differentiation" - maintaining healthy boundaries between oneself and the congregation - is crucial for pastors leading churches through closure.

3. A "good death" for a church involves celebrating its legacy, providing pastoral care, and empowering members to continue ministry elsewhere.

This episode provides valuable insights for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in the challenges facing declining congregations in America today.

In this episode, we sit down with Mike Sares, director of Urban Skye, to discuss their unique approach to ministry outside traditional church structures. Mike shares insights from his extensive experience, including pastoring Scum of the Earth Church and working with various faith entrepreneurs.

Key points covered:

• Urban Skye acts as an umbrella organization for freelance pastors, providing administrative support and spiritual community

Mike provides a refreshing perspective on doing ministry in today's cultural landscape, emphasizing authenticity, humility, and a willingness to color outside the lines of traditional church structures. His insights are valuable for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in innovative approaches to faith and community.

3 Key Takeaways:

1. Effective ministry often happens outside church walls, meeting people where they are culturally and spiritually.

Resources:

https://www.urbanskye.org/

https://www.mikesares.com/

Pure Scum by Mike Sares

https://scumoftheearth.net/

https://www.fiveironfrenzy.com/

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Bart McDonald from the Southern Baptist of Texas Foundation about their innovative Jubilee Program. This program helps struggling churches preserve their assets and legacy while transitioning to new ministries or congregations.

Key Points:

• The Jubilee Program is based on biblical principles from Leviticus and Deuteronomy

Quotes: "We don't want to hold a Jubilee property in our possession any longer than it takes to get it back into the hands of the local New Testament church." - Bart McDonald

"If God's people will get together and prayerfully seek the face of God, it's been my experience that God's people will almost always do the right thing." - Bart McDonald

Key Takeaways:

1. The Jubilee program applies real estate principles in a non-profit framework to give dying churches better options.

Call-to-Action: If you've been part of a church closing or merger, share your story by emailing [email protected]

Related Topics: Church revitalization, Church planting, Baptist churches, Church property management, Legacy giving

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee interviews Dr. Myles Werntz, Associate Professor of Theology at Abilene Christian University. They discuss the concept of scarcity in churches and how it's affecting congregations across denominations. Dr. Werntz shares insights from his recent Christianity Today article "Scarcity's Strange Gifts" and explores the challenges and opportunities presented by resource constraints in modern church settings.

Key topics covered:

• The psychological effects of scarcity on decision-making

Three Key Takeaways:

1. Scarcity is becoming a widespread issue for churches across denominations, affecting resources, attendance, and staffing. This trend is likely to continue and requires new approaches to ministry.

Keywords: church scarcity, declining resources, ministry challenges, church leadership, bi-vocational ministry, church attendance trends, Christian ethics, theology, church growth

Resources:

Scarcity's Strange Gifts by Myles Werntz

Myles Werntz's Substack

Howard Thurman

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dr. Stanley Granberg, founder of Heritage 21, an organization dedicated to helping declining churches make critical decisions about their future. Dr. Granberg shares his extensive experience in church planting, missions, and organizational leadership, offering valuable insights into the challenges facing aging congregations.

Key topics discussed:

1. The Quick 50 Assessment: A simple tool to determine if a church needs to consider its existential future, based on three factors: church age, average member age, and attendance.

Dr. Granberg emphasizes the importance of courage, facing reality, and putting plans on paper to gain perspective when dealing with church decline. He encourages church leaders to view their situation objectively and make informed decisions about their future.

3 Key Takeaways:

1. The Quick 50 Assessment (50 years old, 50 average age, 50 or fewer in attendance) is a useful tool for identifying churches that may need to consider their long-term viability.

Resources:

Empty Church: Why People Don't Come and What to Do About It by Dr. Stanley Granberg

Heritage 21

In this special "Potluck" episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee catches up with his old friend, Dr. Jim Trammell, Associate Professor of Communication at High Point University, a frequent contributor to Baptist News Global, and deacon at Emerywood Baptist Church, to discuss the evolving role of media in modern church worship. They explore how technology and media shape congregations, online church services' pros and cons, and the challenges facing traditional and contemporary worship styles.

Key Topics Discussed:

• The impact of media and technology on church services

Notable Quotes: "In a lot of contemporary media-centric churches, media is so important to how they do worship that if you eliminate all the electronic media, you no longer have a service." - Dr. Jim Trammell 

Keyword Tags:

Discover how the Dinner Church Collective is revitalizing the way we experience church and reach the unchurched. In this thought-provoking episode, Verlon Fosner shares his journey of transforming a dying church into a vibrant community centered around the simple act of gathering for a meal and engaging with the stories of Jesus. Learn about the sociological challenges facing modern churches, the surprising spiritual experiences witnessed at Jesus' tables, and the growth of this innovative approach across the country. Gain insights into building an inclusive and accessible form of worship that resonates with those disconnected from traditional church settings.

Outline:

1. Introduction to Verlon Fosner and his background

Key Takeaways:

• Despite everyone's best efforts Westminster Community was unsuccessful at revitalizing.  Revitalization came by becoming aware of the sociological needs of their surrounding community.  Verlon used words like 'rescue' and 'recovery' to describe their new sense of mission, rather than words like 'reach' and 'attract' which are often associated with church growth.

• Worship

Resources:

https://www.dinnerchurch.com/

Karl Vaters joins The Last Service Podcast to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities facing small churches. With over 40 years of pastoral experience and as the author of several books on small church ministry, Karl provides valuable insights to help small congregations thrive.

Key Topics:

- Defining what constitutes a "small church"

Quotes:

"We have to be thinking more innovatively and creatively than just the church building itself." - Karl Vaters on repurposing church facilities

"Integrity is the new competence. We've been teaching primarily management tools for 30 years. People aren't leaving because we didn't get techniques right, but because of a lack of integrity." - Vaters

"There does come a point where a church closing becomes inevitable...you have to be proactive and make difficult decisions." - Vaters on knowing when to end well

Listen to this insightful episode to gain wisdom for thriving as a small congregation or navigating a church's ending with Christ-centered integrity.

3 Key Takeaways:

1. Small churches are different animals than large churches, and bigger isn't always better.  Be careful of applying big church solutions and tools to small churches and find ways to define the church's health beyond Sunday morning attendance.

2. Pastor transitions can cause existential problems for a church.  They require time, intention, and clear communication. 

3. We can think of a church's lifecycle like flowing down a river.  There will be an ending.  We must be aware of where we are in our life cycle and pay attention to the signs of what's coming.  When we've passed the point of no return, let Christ be your legacy and do the work to ensure the remaining resources build the kingdom of God.  

Resources:

karlvaters.com

Karl's books, including De-Sizing the Church

Church Lobby Podcast

Ignatian Spirituality

Les McKeown and Carey Nieuwhof on Church Life Cycles