By Steve Rush | The Leadership Hacker
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Dr Ciela Hartanov was part of the founding team of The Google School for Leaders and Head of Next Practice Innovation and Strategy at Google, She is a psychologist and human behavioural expert and is the founder and CEO of Humcollective, in this episode, you can learn:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Ciela below:
Ciela on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cielarose/
Ciela on Twitter: https://twitter.com/CHartanov
Humcollective Website: https://www.humcollective.co
Full Transcript Below.
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Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors, and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov is a special guest on today's show. She's an ex-Google executive, psychologist and the founder and CEO of humcollective. But before we get a chance to speak with Ciela, it's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: It's been a while since we've dug into the history books to find those lessons of leadership that we can draw on. So, I thought we'd start with a couple today. In the early 1960s, a marine biologist and author, Rachel Carson was working to overcome some immense personal and professional challenges. On top of writing what would ultimately become Silent Spring. Her watershed book, exposing the dangers of synthetic pesticides and their impact on the environment. Carson was fighting a battle on a whole other front, cancer. Professor, Nancy Cohen, chronicled the stories of her and others for Harvard Business School and Cohen focused on attitudes and actions in the face of crisis that made a positive difference to the world. Carson's moment of forging her crucible, stretched out for more than two years, Cohen writes, this long slow burn demanded again and again, that she find her way back from the perceptive despair and then recommit to her mission.
Her ability to stay the course, finish her book and exert enormous impact was fueled only by her unrelenting dedication to a mightier cause. Despite being played by a series of health complications that took great physical and emotional tolls. Carson remained staunchly committed to her mission. Cohen described it as to bring the wonders of the natural world to the public and to spotlight the responsibility we each have to protect the earth and to sustain all life and Cohen notes that unlike many other prominent leaders throughout history known for their charisma or aggressiveness and assertiveness. Carson was shy in retiring, almost quite introvert whose leadership approach was characterized by a quiet, determination, resilience, and stone wall commitment to doing purposeful and driven work.
Frederick Douglas was an abolitionist like Carson. He was driven by deep sense of mission. After escaping from slavery in 1838, he used his experience in bondage to become a leader in the anti-slavery movement and a champion for black freedom. In her book Cohen notes. Douglas realized that in order to enact large scale change, he had to be self-committed and to create his own internal, moral, intellectual, and emotional infrastructure, a framework for both understanding the power of slavery and how to consistently and effectively combat it. Douglas devoted a great deal of effort to building his framework within himself. He then used us to develop an effective leadership style. This would've been thorny and complicated work. We can often imagine the series of conversations he'd ever had with himself as he started to work through his own architecture. Cohen had written that these internal discussions had formed a cornerstone of Douglas's leadership, helping him make day to day choices, communicate with the mission and navigate through the moments of doubt and despair. All individuals who aspire to lead effectively must build their own foundation.
Throughout his life. Douglas used his perspective and personal experiences as tools to fight for social change. He also used his writing and public speaking to inspire others, to stand with him and Douglas recognized that making a significant impact required motivating and empowering his fellow citizens and used his communication progress to achieve that objective successfully. Cohen goes on to write. We long for a leader like Frederick Douglas, who understood that the country could only achieve its full potential when Americans faced and write the critical wrong that Douglas led from the lecture hall and from the newspaper stand, which was as much or more than he did through the offices of elite politicians. He believed that positive change began with ordinary citizens and his work, a leader to help them affect the individuals who governed them. So, their leadership hack here is, whether you are a mid-career professional or an emerging senior leader or brand new to leading others.
The stories that these iconic individuals in part are important, real-life lessons that we can learn from. So, by fostering engagement and cohesion, amongst your team, finding a purpose that connects your passion and developing a leadership approach that informs how you inspire and mobilize others. You can become a more courageous leader and take your career to the next level. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Big shout out to Karen, one of our regular listeners. Who's introduced us to the work of Professor Nancy Cohen. If you've got any insights or stories that you want us to showcase, please get in touch.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Dr. Ciela Hartanov is our special guest on today's show. She was part of the founding team and the Google School of Leaders. She was Head of the next practice Innovation Strategy at Google. She's now a Psychologist and a Human Behavioral Expert and the founder and CEO of humcollective, and innovation strategy firm, preparing organizations for the future. Ciela, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.
Steve Rush: So, I'm really fascinated to learn about how you meandered through corporate life to end up leading humcollective. Tell us a little bit about the journey?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Well, meander would be a good description of how I think careers are built these days. When I started graduate school, I actually thought I was going to be an academic and that was my presumed path. And there was a sister school to my school that I was attending in cultural psychology in IO psych school. So, I started moonlighting and wondering, hmm, what are these other students doing? What are they learning? And I realized, you know, it was fascinating because I was learning a lot about culture, human behavior, and organizations from a very specific sort of academic lens. But on the IO psych side of the school, they were actually working with organizations, and they had projects where they were working with leaders who were struggling. And I just became really intrigued about how do you apply the theory in practice?
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, I started moonlighting even more and ended up doing sort of a dual degree in cultural psychology and human behavior with a sort of a subset in IO psych so that I could actually bring the theories and practices into organization. So, I abandoned the academic path and went into corporate. I started with a leadership consultancy called the Ken Blanchard Companies, which is a small family run company, which is very unique family run companies are, which we can talk about. If that's interesting to you?
Steve Rush: Very well known nonetheless.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: [Laugh], yeah. And he wrote The One Minute Manager, which many people know is sort of a seminal leadership book. And I think that was an introduction to me around, gosh, how interesting? How leadership becomes this really critical and evergreen part of organizations. And so, I had firsthand ability to see that inside this consulting practice. And I had a wonderful mentor who threw me into a job that frankly I was not qualified for, but she saw something in me and said, hey, why don't you go and reorganize our international consulting practice. And I got to travel a lot, to England and Singapore and other places. Rethinking the structures and practices. So that was my first sort of foray into change management, and it really stuck. So, I have a real system thinking mind. So, I was like, okay, this seems like the right path for me. And at the same time, I was finishing my doctorate degree and this same mentor just pushed me out of the nest. And she said, I think you've done all you can do here, which was a really seminal moment for me and my career. And I ended up at that point moving into tech and I stayed in technology firms for the remainder of my career until now where I'm running my own consulting practice. So, it's like, I've come full circle.
Steve Rush: Yeah, indeed. Of course, you were part of that massive growth in Google.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Yes.
Steve Rush: That must have been a fascinating time in your career to see that evolve?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Absolutely fascinating. And speaking of leadership, I think you see this inflection point where leadership needs to look different and change. And I saw that firsthand not only for myself as a leader, but also for the leaders that I was leading. And that became a really important and critical pivot point for myself and my career and what I was doing at Google. When I started thinking about, you know, leadership needs to look different in the modern workplace, both for scale, but also because we're really moving out of the industrial era. So how do we do that effectively? And because of that, I pitched an idea to build an innovation practice inside the people function at Google, which I think is probably the first one that's ever been built. Hopefully now there's more. But what I came to realize is that we needed to have much more of an innovation lens on developing people on thinking about how the people practice needs to evolve and beyond the industrial area logic. And that puts a squarely of course, where most organizations are now grappling with the future of work.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: And that's true in every single organization across the board at this point, which is part of the reason why I left to build my own consulting practice, because I think every organization needs to find their way forward in a contextual way. And that requires some support and some expertise.
Steve Rush: And as part of your time at Google. You talk about the future of work. Now you're perhaps ahead of the game a little bit in visioning and strategizing what the future of work could be at Google. And it's now probably form almost part of most of our routine lives today, and you've created the next practice innovation strategy there.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Yes.
Steve Rush: So, what is next practice innovation?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So next practice innovation is using foresight and anthropological methods to anticipate what likely is going to happen next, looking at scenarios, and then merging that into a strategy that works for the organization specifically. So, what I am a big fan of is, it's called next practice for a reason, because I think replication is a really, bad idea when we're trying to look at what's next for an organization and help an organization leapfrog. So, I understand the value of best practice and benchmarking as a way of understanding but replicating becomes a challenge because then we all become the same.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, the idea about inventing next practice is the call to action that every organization has the opportunity to think wider and think bigger and be at the forefront of their industry, their people practices. And now more than ever, I see that when it comes to the future of work, organizations can't replicate what other organizations are doing because it needs to work in context. So, I see that across the board, when we talk about things like hybrid work, this is a grand experiment and every organization's going to have to grapple and take some next practice bets for themselves to see what will work inside their own organization.
Steve Rush: And there's no playbook here either is there?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: No.
Steve Rush: Because all organizations are so diverse and so different to your point, it's around just figuring it out and finding out what does work and doesn't work.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, there's no playbook, but there is an innovation process and practice. And that's what I want leaders to know is that there is a process to hold onto. The process I run is a three-step process that gets you all the way from scanning and the big ideas to thinking about what do you need to employ in your strategy now to build the next practice for your organization? And how do you look at that over time and adjust as you go and be much more, you know, adaptive over time. That all is a process that is completely possible. I'm leveraging the work that I did at Google building the innovation next practice lab. So, this is all tried and true, the process itself. So, there is no playbook, but there is a way forward.
Steve Rush: Right. I love the unconscious anchor in the language next practice as well because it's forward looking. It's allows the unconscious behavior to be a little bit more visionary, doesn't it?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Absolutely. And I think that's really exciting, you know, when we can unlock ourselves from the fear of uncertainty, which is a natural human reaction, when we don't feel stability, we feel scared, fight or flight, we know that. But what this gives us is an anchor and a hold to say, how do I, before were looking, and then how do I enter that place of awe and excitement about what's possible? And that's where human ingenuity comes from. It's within us. That's part of our human nature.
Steve Rush: So, what's the core work you are undertaking there with humcollective?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, there's a few things that I'm really interested in right now. The one piece that I'm focusing a lot on is research that I think is going to become even more essential as we're looking at the new age of work. And that is how do we look and build the next practice of culture and connection inside organizations. So, we've spent a lot of time thinking about flexibility, personalization, and where we do the work. Now we need to turn our attention to how we do the work in this new context and how we build those essential connective tissues that make up an organization. So that's where I'm focusing most of my research and my conversations with organizations right now. I really believe that if we only focus on flexibility, we will lose the fabric of what makes an organization sing.
Steve Rush: It's a really interesting cold concept, this hybrid world. I've noticed, you know, through the journals I've been reading, the blogs I have been reading over the last couple of weeks that people are getting a little bit uncomfortable with hybrid now, and we're starting to creep back to being more present in the office and less flexible. What's your take on that?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: I think that's because we haven't invented the next practice of how we build that connective tissue.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, my call to the organizations that don't want to backslide is, okay. Now's the time to think about what is the next practice in culture, connection, networking, and start building some of these next practices. So that there isn't a backslide because I understand why there's a backslide, because it's what we know about how we build bonds is by being in the office.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: And even employees I talk to are saying, you know, I left this organization that I joined during the pandemic because I don't feel any resonance or connection to this organization. And so, there's a longing on the part of the employees to feel that connection as well. So, the organizations that do answer that call are going to be the employers that are able to draw the best employees.
Steve Rush: It's almost an unconscious corporate muscle memory, isn't it?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: That's right.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: I mean, it's like any habit change, you know?
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Like it's so easy to go back to what we've known and where we've been. There's no judgment in sort of the backsliding because it's natural that we would want to gravitate and grab onto what we know, but this time is a time like any other where we can truly invent the modern contemporary workplace. And I hope organizations and leaders will take that call.
Steve Rush: I think, you know, if they don't, there's a real risk to their future attraction and retention strategy as well, by the way.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Yeah, and we're already seeing that of course.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Right. That even though you know, the economics are different now than they were when this whole great resignation conversation started. I think what we're going to continue to see is that one, because employees have started executing more choice. They're going to be reticent to let that go. And the employer employee contract will continue to adjust whether or not organizations go kicking and screaming or not. It will still continue to be present and in an important conversation that leaders are having around, gosh, how are we defining this new contract? And are we getting ahead of the game?
Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely. So, with so much uncertainty around the world, you can have a look at companies, locations, countries. There seems to be so much uncertainty and volatility around us at the moment. What is it that makes those leaders and those people in business run towards it and get, you know, excited about that disruption yet others might feel that this is something just want to avoid and hide away?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Yeah, that's a great question. I think it goes back to what I sort of described about the human condition. If there's too much uncertainty, our brains simply cannot handle it. So, we retreat. And because this is sort of a cognitive issue, my recommendation for leaders is always to find a place of stability inside that uncertainty and those leaders who do find a place of stability are able to go towards the uncertainty with openness excitement, because they have a stable ground to come back to. So, I did a big study while I was at Google about what are those most transformative, agile adaptable leaders doing? And it was exactly to answer your question, why do some run towards the uncertainty with excitement and why do some retreats? And what we found is that the core of it was that they had a set of stability practices that they never would let go of. And that could be anything from, you know, showing up to dinner at 6:00 PM every evening with your family to a meditation practice, to an exercise regime. So, it was nothing grand, but it was specific and consistent. And if you find that consistency where you find that stable ground for yourself, then your brain will feel safe enough that it will allow in that uncertainty in a way that it'll look at it as novel and exciting.
Steve Rush: That's really fascinating. I think, you know, I've studied this genre of leadership and you find that most successful leaders have these rituals that they put aside in their practices and routines.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: That's right.
Steve Rush: To create either conscious stability or indeed recovery time. But I've never really noticed it as a tactical, almost safe location to go where you have that anchored routine. I think it's quite fascinating.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: And it was really actually surprising to me. I thought there would be something else that created that for these leaders. I thought, you know, maybe they had a background where, you know, they had grown up all over the world or traveled a lot or something had created inside of them, the ability to handle different conditions and no. Really it all came down to your point about having a ritualized practice around stability so that they were ready and able to take on the volatility.
Steve Rush: Yeah, love it. So, if we think about the future of work that we're in at the moment, it's fair to say, it's going to continually be uncertain and there's going to be things that are going to be unknowns of the future. What kind of give maybe tools and ideas as to how we might best embrace that uncertainty?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, the first thing I think is important to realize is that the pace of change is not going to reduce. And so, the place that I always start when we are thinking about organizations and leaders, is building awareness about that truth, and helping educate around why that might be the case. So, I really do encourage leaders to get educated about driving the shifts in organizational life, but also just the colliding forces that we see. So, I do a lot of work with leaders, helping them see what are the shapes, the, you know, the future signals that are shaping, how organizations are going to change? Doing scenario planning. So doing all of this awareness building is another way for us to gain comfort around the uncertainty, because then you're starting to understand the shades of what might be possible. Of course, you're not predicting, but you're giving your mind and understanding around what might be possible.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So that requires all of us leaders. But I think also just all of us employees who are working in the world right now to become a bit of a futurist. So that's the first piece of the puzzle I think, is really important. Is this awareness building around, why is this happening?
Steve Rush: There's also a bit there as well, isn't there? About just being uncomfortable, being uncomfortable.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Mm-Hmm, so that's the second piece I was going to say, which is going back to sort of yourself inside this uncertainty. I know that this idea of self-awareness gets overplayed a lot. I think it's because we misunderstand it, but one of the things that I'm writing, I'm writing a book right now. One of the chapters that I'm writing about is called the sensing self. And I think it's essential in this era of volatility, uncertainty. There's a lot of names for what we're experiencing right now, but we need to anchor and find ourselves and become what I call a sensing self, which is the ability to understand ourselves, but understand others and also understand the context that we're inside of. So, it's this elevated idea of self-awareness. So, I talked first about becoming a better futurist and understanding the context, but it's equally essential for you to understand yourself inside that context so that you know, how you can make moves to be effective inside that context.
Steve Rush: Yeah, one of the things I love about your work, I read an article of yours in The New York Times. I think it was a few weeks back, was around this whole notion of psychological architects. And you have this real strong belief that we're in control of building that architecture for ourselves. I'd love to just understand a little bit more about that.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, for me, I think that, so I have a psychology background obviously, and one of the pieces of work that I spent a lot of time when I was at Google thinking about was mindset. Why and how do we build our world beliefs? And that these become sort of our operating system and they dictate our choices and our behaviors, and those mindsets don't have to be static. Those psychological ways of sort of viewing the world don't need to be static. We can work with them and change them. And what we've learned through neurosciences, that there is this cognitive flexibility that's possible. We see it all the time with children because children have a much more modular sort of minds. And then they start spaces in the mind, and then it starts to harden over time. But as an adult, we can still architect that for ourselves too, where we're examining our mindset and making it object to ourselves, and then we can work with it and change it. So, when I talk about self-awareness from a leadership standpoint, what I'm actually talking about is working with mindset at the deepest level around that sort of psychological architecture versus getting a 360 feedback, for example.
Steve Rush: Yeah, so is it as simple as making a choice of which mindset you have, or is there some deeper activity that needs to take place for that to happen?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, there is deeper activity. The thing about mindset when we're really working with the deepest core of our mindset is that it's deeply attached to our identity. So, what starts to happen is if you believe something to be true about you, it's a bit hard to unravel that, right? So, where I see leaders getting most stuck about not being able to handle uncertainty or change is because them having to change, to grapple with whatever the situation that they're in hits that sort of a root issue around their identity. So, to have the biggest sort of impact around mindset, we're really talking about working with your identity. Now there's entry ways into that though, that don't feel so overwhelming. And the way into that then is to start working with what I call assumptions. So, looking at assumptions means that you start having other people or yourself name what you're assuming about a situation.
So, an example of this might be, you know, I'm entering a situation with a colleague, and I always have an issue with this colleague, for example. We don't seem to see eye to eye. And so, what starts to happen over time, you might notice is that every time you enter that meeting with that other person is that you are coming with an assumption that that meeting is going to be dismal, for example. So, the work then is to start naming your assumptions about how you're entering into different environments. And then you start trying to shift that. So that would be as easy as when you're entering this meeting, you could say, okay, I know that I'm entering with an assumption that I think this meeting is going to be a disaster. How do I reframe that for myself? Let me just reframe that. And maybe you don't even believe it, but you're just repeating it to yourself a reframing, you know, this meeting is going to go well, this meeting is going to be unexpectedly excellent. You know, you just sort of start reframing in your own mind. And then what starts happening over time then is then your mindset actually starts to shift, and those assumptions start to shift. So that's the easiest place to start is just working at this sort of assumption level.
Steve Rush: Yes, neat way of using assumptions because often folk use assumptions in a different way. And that creates other behaviors. So, paying attention to assumptions can often, without being really thoughtful about it, reinforce some negative behaviors, right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: That right.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: That's right.
Steve Rush: Awesome. Now you have this notion of emergent mindset.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Which comes with some principles and some perspectives I'd love to get into them.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, one of the things I'm thinking a lot about is okay, if we are the psychological architects and we need to work with our mindset, then what might be some of the mindsets that we would want to be holding to handle emergence or uncertainty. And I use the term emergence on purpose because I think that's a more accurate representation of what's happening right now. So, what's starting to happen is we're living more and more in this interconnected environment. And because we're in this really interconnected environment, there's these emergent outcomes that happen all around us all of the time. And so, it means we have less control over the outcomes. And a great example of this, just to give you a visual is, there is a park across the street from my house, and there's a lovely walkway that's been built and paved, et cetera. Except now there is this path through the dirt that has been created because people have started walking through this dirt, right.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: And so, this happens all the time in parks. Like urban planners. This is their worst nightmare is, that they try to plan where people are going to walk and then people walk somewhere else. And then what happens is, then a brand-new path through the dirt gets built. That is an example of emergence because you and I didn't agree that, that we were going to do that. But what happened was each person sort of started doing that. And then it became a collective outcome that we couldn't have predicted beforehand. So, this is what I believe is happening inside organizations, inside societies is that we are all participating in this grand, you know, experiment of modern work. And it's really hard for us to predict where that walkway is going to be, for example, because we're all participants in it. So, in order to handle that kind of interconnected emergence, we need to hold a different set of mindsets. And this is true for leaders, but I believe this is true also for everyone who is working in the modern context. So let me share with you what I believe this emergent mindset is made of.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: And there's four sort of shifts that I ask people to think about and take on. And I would invite your listeners because we talked about assumptions. When I share with you this shift, think about what assumptions are you making about that shift? What assumptions automatically come up for you, because then you know what your mindset is that you're already holding and where your resistance might be. So, the first one is moving from predicting to adjusting. This one is essential because really businesses need to respond to the changing needs of the environment. And what this gives us is the ability to access human ingenuity against the context of something that's not predetermined. So, one thing that we've spent a lot of time doing in organizations is trying to set up sort of predictive strategies around what is going to happen. My question then becomes instead, why don't we ask ourselves what might happen and how do we adjust to the future? How do we build systems that are more adaptable and that maybe it's not a repeatable practice, but it's still essential so that we can adjust over time? So that's the first one from prediction to adjusting.
Steve Rush: Like it.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: The second one is from simplicity to nuance and anyone who has read my work or any of the podcasts I've been on, I am on a big diatribe I guess you could say about us moving to a more nuanced point of view again. We have oversimplified the understanding of how organizations worked. We've tried to build structures that predict, like I said, and that we are really obsessed with this idea that there's right and wrong, and that's not how the world works. In complexity and emergence, what we're dealing with is that there's all of these sort of irreducible parts and it's reduction is thinking is not going to help us. What will help us is understanding more nuance about a situation. And that requires taking multiple perspectives and understanding and seeing all of the shades of gray versus turning our eyes from it.
So that's the second one from simplicity to nuance. The third one is moving from data to insight. So, I know we have a lot of data. We have a lot of big data that we've worked with and I'm a fan of data. It's absolutely essential to help us create more multiple perspectives and more nuance if we use it in the right way. So, I really believe that we need to take data and make it more nuanced and more interesting. And by that, I mean, it's not enough for us just to push out a data set that tells us an answer. Instead, we need to look to what I call thick data. And anthropologists are the ones who came up with this idea of thick data.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Which helps us delve deeper into sort of the meaning behind what the data's telling us and illuminate the human experience inside that data. And that's where true insight comes from. We need more insight these days. We don't need more data. We just need more understanding. And that comes from diving deeper into this idea of thick data.
Steve Rush: Love it.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: And then the final one is from moving from linear to indirect. And this one I find is the hardest one for people to grapple with, because I know we all love a step-by-step plan. And often on podcasts, I get asked, you know, what are the five things that a leader needs to do right now? And I never answer that question because that's linear [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: And that's not how we're going to make our way through. So, we need to get more comfortable with an indirect path these uncertain circumstances will lead us through sort of a murky winding road. And we have to account for that and how organizations are built and how outcomes are achieved.
Steve Rush: And it's interesting because we are naturally drawn to linear step by step process, aren't we?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Well, we've been taught that.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: But if you look at children when they play, that's not how they play.
Steve Rush: No.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, I always look back to sort of the essence of the child brain, because we can pull that forward. And in brain science, they're learning more and more about the fact that the right hemisphere of our brain is not linear at all. And it's where the creativity lives, but it's all preverbal. So, once we start moving it into the language part of our brain and we try to articulate it, that's where we start getting the step by step, because we're trying to articulate something that's not articulate, can't be articulated, right. So, it's sort of the idea that how can we build back into our whole brain and allow that to thrive inside organizations because that right side of the brain has a lot of non-linear connections that are being made that can unlock a lot of potential.
Steve Rush: Yeah, such great perspective. Thank you for sharing it. So, this is where we get to turn the tables a little bit, and I'm going to consciously not ask you for your top three. I'm going to ask you for your three most indirect nonlinear hacks.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: [Laugh] that's a great question. So, as you know, I'm not a big fan of hacks. And so the place that I will go is back to what we sort of talked about throughout this conversation, which is where and how can you get the space as a leader or otherwise to allow your brain to wander, to allow yourself that spaciousness where that right brain can start doing its thing, where you can start being more excited about the future, because what I'm starting to see more and more right now is that leaders feel so pressured and constrained and burnt out that the innovation part of their job has been completely crushed. And I think that is a real shame. So, if there was one called action, which is not necessarily a hack, but I think it's essential to deal with these modern times is get yourself some spaciousness, find your way out of the churn and the day to day so that you are investing in a long-term creative process that ultimately will create the next practice for your organization. But you can't do that if you don't get yourself off the hamster wheel.
Steve Rush: Definitely so, and you know, I've said before, actually, you know, even though our show is called The Leadership Hacker, my job is to hack actually into your mind and into your experiences.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: Not to shortcut any solutions because we all know there aren't any right?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Right, there are any and yet I think what we've learned from sort of the research on habit formation is, and I'm a real big fan of James Clear who talks a lot about how habits are formed is that it's about the doing so when I say something that is like simple, like make sure that you have at least some spaciousness in your week, what matters there is that you do it regularly. And that is what is probably the biggest hack if you will, is using the habit formation research to be able to change your behavior over time.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and the next part of this year, we call it Hack to Attack. Essentially is where something hasn't worked out as well. We may have learned from it. It may now be a force of good in our life or work. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Mm-Hmm, so when working in innovation research, you have a variety of different people that you're working to influence. All those people from those who are, you know, the operators who are spending most of their time on the job, building out outcomes and OKRs all the way to people who are much more visionary. And I've learned, I have to say the hard way that in order for people to get excited about the future, you really have to meet them where they're at with a story about, you know, how this relates to them. And this seems obvious in retrospect, but because I am such a big thinker and I'm always looking around the corner, that's what gets me excited. But if I come forward with that, for someone who is not like me, or doesn't think like me, that can feel really intimidating or even nonsensical. So, I've learned over time that to become an effective visionary, you have to be able to tell the story in a way and multiple ways that people can understand. And I think every leader who's created a vision probably has learned this, but I think it's essential that how we talk, the narrative that we build is just as important as the vision that we've decided on.
Steve Rush: Yeah, that's very true. Very true. So, the last part of the show, we give you a chance to do a bit of time travel now. You get to bump into Ciela at 21 and give her some words of wisdom. What was it going to be?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, the words of wisdom that I keep thinking about right now that I wish someone would've told me when I was 21, is that it is about the process, not the product. And this is a bit counterintuitive of course, to how businesses are run, which is often about output and what is the product you're producing. But in life, it's really about the process and having what I've been reading about lately, which is called active patience. So, setting into motion your plans, your hopes, your dreams, your desires, and then making steps towards that. But alongside that waiting and have patience around that and enjoying being inside the process versus just waiting for the outcome to be achieved.
Steve Rush: I love that notion active patience.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Mm-Hmm, I'm loving it too.
Steve Rush: Yeah, as you said it. I'm thinking I need some of this [laugh].
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Dr. Ciela Hartanov: We all need some of this, right?
Steve Rush: Yeah, I often find myself being impatient in delivery and I'm missing the journey, right?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Absolutely, and you know, I think things are always unfolding in ways that we can't really always expect. And you could say this is serendipity or luck, but there is always an unfolding that's happening if you're doing enough work. I think one of the things that we've sold, that's a myth in the Western culture is that if you work harder, you try harder, you'll achieve more. That's not actually the sort of the physics behind outcome.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: You set something in motion, and it'll become like a flywheel. And that's why that active patience is essential because you don't know how that's going to evolve and change, but you can be part of it and do your one essential component.
Steve Rush: I'm sold on the idea. I'm now going to be, as soon as we're done into some research to find more about active patients [laugh] and for our listeners, they're also, I'm sure going to want to learn to find out a little bit more about your work, when the book's coming out? all of that kind of stuff that you're doing now with humcollective, where's the best place for us to send them?
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: So, if you could find me on LinkedIn at Ciela Hartanov, that's where I post most everything. And if you want to reach me, feel free to reach out via my [email protected].
Steve Rush: We'll make sure your links in our show notes as well.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Wonderful.
Steve Rush: Ciela, thank you so much for taking time out your busy schedule. I know you are super, super busy at the moment, so it's been a great opportunity for us to have you on this show, dive into your mind and thank you for being part of our community.
Dr. Ciela Hartanov: Real pleasure, Steve. Thank you so much. Take care.
Steve Rush: Thank you.
Closing
Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers.
Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.
Adrian Simpson is a Co-founder of Wavelength leadership group; for over 20 years he's taken top leaders into the boardrooms and shop floors of the world's most successful, innovative and admired companies. Today you can learn about:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
#some audio issues in this show – thanks for your patience.
Find out more about Adrian below:
Adrian on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrian-simpson-b600139/
Adrian on Twitter: https://twitter.com/AdieSimpson
Wavelength on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wavelengthleadership/
Wavelength Website: https://www.wavelengthleadership.com
Full Transcript Below
Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors, and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
Adrian Simpson is a special guest on today's show. For over 20 years he's really been immersing himself in amongst some of the top firms around the world, including the likes of Apple, Tesla, Netflix, and Google. And we're going to dive into some of those leadership secrets, but before we do, it's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: Purpose is a real key part of all leaders’ capabilities, but often leaders get it wrong. Commonly, we see leaders think that purpose should be the same as their company's vision, mission, or purpose, but it shouldn't. Believe writing a leadership purpose statement is not a onetime exercise at all. It's something that should evolve, and it should connect the individual to the purpose of the organization. It's incredibly important and it needs deep insight and deep thoughts. So, what is leadership purpose? Your leadership purpose is your statement about who you are as a person and how you bring those unique qualities into your world.
First and foremost, leadership purpose is about your values and what's important to life for you. It's often also considered as your why statement or your reason, your beliefs. Think about your leadership purpose statement as being your beacon, enabling people to have a real clear understanding of what your direction in life and work is. In doing so, it'll help you drive the right behaviors on a daily basis and keep you engaged when circumstances around you can be challenging. It doesn't need to be overly complicated. Your leadership purpose statement must be a living and breathing document that you can share so, others understand it too. And it'll likely change as you change as a person, or your career grows or changes shape. So, you should always update it regularly. And remember your leadership purpose will not only help keep you grounded, and you stay on your path, will help you be a better leader and the leader you're meant to be. Most important, it sets a declaration of the kind of support you're prepared to give as a leader for the people around you. So, they can also buy into your journey. So simply put, think about the purpose, your why, and make sure it describes your values, your beliefs, and your vision, and how that aligns to the organization that you work and serve with. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Let's dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Adrian Simpson is a Co-founder of Wavelength leadership group. For over 20 years he's taken top leaders into the boardrooms and shop floors. Some of the world's most successful, innovative and admired companies, including Alibaba, Netflix, Apple, Tesla, Lego, and Google but a few. Andrew, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Adrian Simpson: Thanks, Steve. It's great to join you this morning.
Steve Rush: Really looking forward to diving into some of the lessons learned from some of these huge conglomerates, but tell us a little bit about you, your background and how you've arrived to do what you've done?
Adrian Simpson: Gosh, so yeah, so a very, very brief resume. Started my career in retail with John Lewis Partnership then decided at sort of age 21 to go off to University in Manchester, did a degree in business and marketing. And just after University, I managed to stumble into a role with the incredible Tom Peters Group. And for those that aren't old enough, Tom Peters was certainly in the 1980s, nineties, the most successful management guru of his time, his Jim Collins of his day, who wrote an amazing book called In Search of Excellence and sold many millions of copies and to give us sort of sense. So, I was putting him on stage in the 1990s at about $120,000 U.S. dollars a day back in those days.
So, and then one day, yeah, after being at the Tom Peters Group where I was helping put him on stage and find some, he really wrote about companies that had kind of amazing cultures that really just sort of got it. And indeed, I'm still visiting some of the companies he wrote about wrote about 30 years ago, like Southwest Airlines. The phone rang and a small innovation company called What If was on the phone. And one thing led to the other and a conversation snowballed into a coffee, a coffee into a lunch, a lunch into a come join us. And I moved into to join What If for 11 years. When I joined, we were 10 people when I left, there were 355 countries. And it was the ride of my life and had an incredible opportunity there to provide our clients with some inspirations, started running for the study tour events, and then 14 years ago made the jump to co-found Wavelength.
Steve Rush: So, what is it specifically that Wavelength do?
Adrian Simpson: Our specialism is bringing the outside world in. Basically, we scour the world looking for examples of practitioners. What are the leaders? The organizations that have compelling stories to share with our clients and really providing our clients with a combination of what I would call inspiration, education and provocation. And our hypothesis really is at the level at which we operate at, is the leaders learn best from leaders. So, as I mentioned, sort of, you know, scouring the world, looking for practitioners you know, got real experience on topics that our clients were interested in. Albeit, you know, I was literally in America 10 days ago with a group of 20 leaders from all around the world. We had clients from Australia, from India, from Japan, from the Middle East, six across North America, the rest from across Europe, from lots of different organizations.
They flew into Dallas Texas on a Saturday. We began on a Sunday morning with a sort of half day workshop. And then for the first day and a half, we spent going inside the legendary Southwest Airlines and Ritz Carlton, really focusing on excellence in culture and leadership and service. So, they can value the three and a half days, looking at innovation, disruption, new business models, what's next? And what's next? Next. Doing some set piece visits but also doing some incredible things like going for drives in the world's first, fully autonomous robots, taxis operated by crews to have no drivers in them at all [laugh] or doing metaverse meetings in the metaverse, Oculus quest headsets.
So, we do things like that to very, very intense one-week immersions for very senior business leaders. We have at the other end of the spectrum, we have a digital only program called inspire, which is every single month. Typically, on a third Thursday of the month, we take a cohort of leaders from lots of different client companies live inside a great business, somewhere around the world of an audience with a really accomplished leader. Last week we hosted a session with Alastair Campbell on mental health. Next week, we have the former Prime Minister of Denmark. Helle Thorning Schmidt on how to lead the country. We've got Jesper Boring coming up IKEA Chief Exec. We've hosted Alan Jope Unilever's Chief Exec. We are hosting Tim Steiner, Ocado Chief Exec in September, and they are just short, sharp, regular doses of live world class inspiration for our clients. And we've got amazingly 700 people signed up to that program from around the world. So, we do, you know, whether it's digital only, short, sharp, live inspiration, whether it's weeklong, or we have other programs, one called connect, which is sort of, has about 50 people on it and is UK based, it runs about nine months or whether it's just, you know, helping clients bring speakers in for a particular offsite or conference. But again, any speakers we will use, will be practitioners.
Steve Rush: How awesome. So, you managed to really bump shoulders with, and as you said, immerse other leaders with these great leaders from around the world. What's the reason your focus is heavily aimed at making leaders learn from other leaders.
Adrian Simpson: I just think there is a relevancy that you cannot get and that applicability that you cannot get from any other kind of learning when it comes to leadership is in my view. Now I'm not for a second saying there is not a role for, you know, academics and business schools and some kind of provocative, rigorous thinking. I think there is a role for that, but I suppose my best sort of summary when I had a chief exec who has been with me, a chap. He was chief exec of a fortune 500 company. He came with me to America for a week. He came with me to China for a week. And I said, you know, John, why are you doing these programs? And he said, it was very simple Adrian. He said, my previous HR leader, he said, kept on telling me to go to Harvard.
And I kept on saying to her, tell me where I should go to business school to learn about business from someone who never run a business and I'll go. He said she didn't. So, I didn't [laugh]. And I thought, and he said, so when, you know, she put in front of me the chance to spend a week in the U.S. alongside peers from different industries, different sectors, learning from companies and leaders that were perhaps bit further ahead of us in terms of their narrative. He said it was a compelling proposition because they know what it's like to sit in my seat. They know what it's like to sit it as a board director with multiple stakeholders, internal and external, limited resources, having to make informed decisions. And he said with the greatest respect, no academic, no guru, no consultant knows that reality unless they have also at some point run a major business.
So I think it's that sort of you know, real applicability I think and I think it's, you know, what, I've, I've learned as well is that, you know, when you give clients the opportunity to hear from other leaders and learn from other leaders, you know, it's easier almost to swipe with glee, if you like, what it is that they've done, you know. I mean, I'll just give you an example. There was a, you know, I actually did a podcast myself with a tremendous guy called Fred Reid couple of months back, and Fred was the founding chief executive Virgin in America. He was the president of Delta Airlines, the president of Lufthansa. He went on to work with five years of Brian Chesky Airbnb and he also did a stint with Larry Page at his private company Kitty Hawk. So, you know, he is worked with Richard Branson, Larry Page you know, Brian Chesky, and also been a twice president and onetime CEO. And I was talking to him about the challenge of, you know, communication and how do you, as a leader, you know, build an understanding in the business of what business you are in and operational realities. And he told this fantastic story about when he was both at Lufthansa and Delta faced with that challenge, he decided to create a board game. And basically, what he did was he would invite cross sectioned cohorts of leaders from across the business, whether it's air stewart’s, pilots, mechanics, ramp agents, didn't matter. And they would be invited to take a day out, fully paid to play this board game.
But what the board game was full of was real operational data and decisions. And in sort of teams of eight, they have to like to make a decision. Are you going to give people a 3% pay rise? Are you going to buy new uniforms for the air stewardess? Are you going to pay the loan off on that plane? Are you going to buy the new plane? Are you going to make invest in the innovation fund? Because innovation director says we're not innovating fast enough. Are we going to, you know, are we going to hedge on oil right? And he said, throughout the day, they had to make real operational decisions based on real operational data that we'd given them from the airline. And he said, the only decision in the day they had to make was to appoint a president. And he said, it was hilarious. They all pointed each other and said, it's you, it's you.
Martine Kalaw is the author of The ABC’s of Diversity, she’s a speaker and DEI consultant helping individuals and organizations overcome unconscious beliefs and implicit bias. In this insightful show you can learn about:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Martine below:
Martine on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/martinekalawconsulting/
Martine on Twitter: https://twitter.com/martinekalaw
Martine on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martinekalaw/
Martine’s Website: https://martinekalaw.com
Full Transcript Below
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Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors, and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
Our special guest on today's show is Martine Kalaw. Martine is a DEI expert; she's worked with some of the world's top companies, helping them navigate through their organization's diversity, equity and inclusion, and created more diverse and inclusive workspace. She's also the author of The ABCs of Diversity. Before we get a chance to speak with MartinE, It's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: We all know that telling stories is a great leadership skill. So today I'm going to have a go. Once upon a time there was a beautiful kingdom ruled by a Prince. He took over the kingdom after the death of his father, the King, after a few months of ruling, the kingdom things started testing. There was no rain. Drought had brought losses to farmers and killed many animals, birds, and precious plants in the forest. It was followed by an unknown disease that caused loss of many lives. After a few months of pain, things started to improve gradually, but before they could recover completely, an enemy took over the kingdom, killing many people and imprisoning them. The young King managed to escape. He planned to meet his childhood friend, a King of a neighboring kingdom. On his way he was thinking about the past. He was born to be bred King of this powerful and wealthy nation.
Now he's lost everything. He believed that he was cursed because nothing had happened to his father. It had only happened to him. When he reached the neighboring kingdom, and he met his friends. The guards did not allow him to pass because he looked dirty, and bedraggled. He tried many times to get access to the kingdom but failed miserably. Being cast outside the kingdom, he eventually took a job so he could buy food and clothes. Several weeks had passed and he'd now earned enough and ate enough. So, they allowed him to look presentable. So, he set off in a chance to get through the guards and to meet with his friend. After carefully navigating the guards and entering the kingdom. He was greeted warmly by his friend, the King of the neighboring kingdom, after explaining the sad story and things that had happened to him.
The King took pity and ordered his people to give him a herd of a hundred sheep. While grateful, the King was a little surprised as it was expecting much more than just a hundred cheap. He was a King after all. He doesn't want to be a shepherd. Down on his luck. He realized there was no way out. After a few days of grazing his herd, group of wolves attacked his herd and killed all of them. And while the wolves were merely feasting on this new herd, the king ran away. He returned to his only allied at this time, his friend, the King from the neighboring kingdom. This time he gave 50 sheep in pity. But once again, he failed to protect the walls. He returned for a third time, and this time the King gave him 25 sheep with a clear message of, there are no more sheep.
And this time the young King decided if he didn't protect his herd, he knew that he would be on his downers. So, this time he took a different approach. He examined the environment. He understood where the wolves were living, the areas where they would attack. He built additional fences and guards around the herd to protect them. He set up a schedule to monitor those key places and key times when he knew that the wolves would be most active, a few years had passed, and its herd had grown into a thousand sheep. His activities were monitored by his friend, the King and in recognition of his great feat in growing a herd, his friend had ordered his ministers to give him a whole state to rule. He asked his friend, why did you not give me the state to rule when I first come to help you? His friend, the King replied. The first time you came for me for help. Your mindset was like you were born and bred to be a leader. You were expectant. And the truth was far from it.
The King went on to say, you may have been born with wealth, pride, and power, but you have never had proper education and training to lead your people. So, when I gave you the herd, I wanted you to learn how to manage and lead others. Dear friend, I have seen you suffer, return, be resilient, work out a plan. And now I believe you're ready to lead. The moral of the story and leadership hack if you like, is that, just being born into a powerful family or being born with privileges, doesn't mean you'll be successful. Being a manager or leading people in higher position does not make you a leader. Being in charge, such as a King or a Manager or a CEO does not make you a leader. Holding position is just a position. Leadership is a behavior and leadership is a service. The most important role of a leader is to build and develop other leaders. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Let's dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Martine Kalaw is a special guest on today's show. She's an author, speaker and DEI consultant. She's the founder of Martine Kalaw Enterprises and her firm offers strategy development, implementation, and education, and helps organizations overcome unconscious beliefs and implicit biases. Martine also published her second book, The ABCs of Diversity. Martine, welcome to the show.
Martine Kalaw: Thank you so much for having me, Steve. I'm excited to be here
Steve Rush: Now, you have a most fascinating backstory. There are not many people that you can say. I understand how that is because there's not many people would understand your position. Just tell us a little bit about that backstory and how that's really given you the passion to do what you do?
Martine Kalaw: Yeah, certainly. Born in Zambia from the Democratic Republic of Congo. My mother and biological fathers were from there and having been raised in the U.S. but having spent seven years of my life as an undocumented immigrant and stateless individual in the United States in removal or deportation proceedings for seven years has really shaped the work that I do around DEI, in the years that I, you know, navigated through. One being orphaned, two, being undocumented, three, being stateless. I was exposed to various communities. I actually had to, you know, I had to learn how to pivot into different communities as I navigated the world on my own. And so, what this taught me was to, it gave me a different perspective on how people show up and view different circumstances.
It also gave me a level of sensitivity in how to and putting myself in somebody else's shoes and trying to see things from their perspective. And so, for that reason, I feel like I can be a bridge builder in a lot of ways across different communities. I also knew from my experience of being undocumented and stateless, I also understand the importance of having individuals invest in you rather than help you when you're marginalized, right. When your part of an underrepresented community, that's how we actually strengthen our communities, how we strengthen our workforce, is when individuals who have access recognize the access that they have and, or privileged, and some people are not comfortable with that word and then extend that to others and bring them in and do it in a way that's not charity like, and they're not positioning themselves as saviors, but really they're investing in others because they know they're also gaining something back. And in that way, we strengthened our communities. And so that was the experience I had as an undocumented immigrant and stateless person was setting it up so others can invest in me. And then once I, you know, navigated through my journey. Sharing that and passing that forward to my mentees and other people within undocumented stateless community, but then tying it into the larger conversation of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and I guess what you've really described is so extreme in its diverse experience, but to your point, gives you that sensitivity to be able to be really thoughtful in your approach, right?
Martine Kalaw: Right, absolutely. And just having seen, and just the intricacies of bias and discrimination in various facets. I mean, people don't necessarily think about immigration, and you know, statelessness and think of diversity, equity and inclusion, but it's a subset of it.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Martine Kalaw: And certainly, it's nuanced. I mean, we can see that with, you know, the war in Ukraine and we saw the response and how different communities of African immigrants, how they were treated, Moroccan immigrants. We saw that, right. We see that time and time, again in the policies that are enacted around immigration in the U.S. based on different subgroups within immigrants, you know construct. So, in that way DEI is a subset of immigration. Immigration is a subset of DEI, so, it can be a microcosm for the larger conversation around diversity equity and inclusion.
Steve Rush: And diversity also transcends lots of different religions, colors, and creeds, doesn't it? It's not just about, you know, an atypical perspective somebody might have when they join a firm. What's your take on we pet peel, the layers back, diversity in its simplest terms?
Martine Kalaw: Diversity is about variety, right. And representation across variety of different groups, different backgrounds. So, in its simplest term, diversity is offering and embracing variety. Now variety, when we talk about diversity, I like to break it down into three different buckets, right. There's the physical biological bucket in terms of defining diversity. And that can be, you know, that's race, gender, race, it can be age, you know, all of the elements or subcategories of diversity that has to do with somebody's physical definers and their biological, right?
Steve Rush: Right.
Martine Kalaw: Sexual orientation. And then the second bucket that I you know, I group diversity into is, cultural. So cultural can look like a number of things. It could be nationality. It can be your marital status. It can be your education background. It could be your socioeconomic status, right? So that's cultural. And then the third category especially within the work or business context is really around business. The culture or the persona you bring into the business. So, some people are introverts, some people are extroverts. You know, some people are more strategic in the way they show up to work. Some individuals are less strategic, you know, they're big picture thinkers or there, you know, detail oriented. So, these are the different categories, these three different buckets or categories, and they are interrelated. There are correlations between one bucket, right. The business persona that you bring into the workplace is influenced by your culture, the cultural, you know, associations you're a part of. And then that can be influenced by biological, you know, physical. And so, another way of saying it is, look, you know, as a black, you know, African woman in the United States right, these are some of the physical, you know, being black and African are some of the physical you know, associations that I'm a part of.
So culturally, you know, perhaps if I grew up in a community where it was predominantly you know, black and predominantly African immigrants, right. That might influence how I show up in the workplace. If I go to work and everyone else doesn't look like me, everyone else ends up being white. And I'm the only African immigrant. It might actually influence my communication style. Because I'm responding right to the experiences I have and I'm responding to my outward environment. So that's how these three categories or buckets can be related or correlated.
Steve Rush: The interesting thing that you just shared is a perfect example of how diversity can be seen different and that's where equity comes in, isn't it?
Martine Kalaw: Right.
Steve Rush: Tell us a bit about that?
Martine Kalaw: Yeah, so, I'll say, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion. I feel strongly that they are like a three-legged stool. You can't have one without the other. So certainly, you can have variety and representation, but that's not enough to keep people, right. You can have, you know, you have the representation, but if people aren't treated fairly, right. Equity is really about fairness. It's about distribution. If people aren't treated fairly and they're not given the same equitable opportunities, then why would they stay? What would be their incentive? I like to distinguish equity from equality, because people say, oh, well, you know, equity is about equality. It's actually not right.
Steve Rush: No, it's not. And that's where people get confused, right?
Martine Kalaw: Right, equality is what we're aiming for after we reach equity. But right now, across the globe, I mean, you know, this is not just specific to the U.S. or the UK or any one place, but across the globe, what we know is that there are different communities, they're different ethnic groups, they're different races and not everyone has had the same history in their country and have had the same access. In the U.S. we can see that because the history of slavery in the U.S. that was so prominent has made it, so, there have been systemic inequities in the workplace, in education, all of that has been the trickle effect from slavery, right. And as a result of that, it's still trickles. It's still there. It's still, you know, and so what happens is people show up in the workplace and they don't have the same experiences.
They don't have the same access, right. someone who has grown up with certain privileges, access to certain academic institutions, access to certain you know, in a higher echelon of socioeconomic status, right. Might show up in the workplace with a different level of acumen, right. To the business and feel more comfortable navigating the workplace, feel more comfortable looking for a mentor, reaching out to the C-Suite Executives and asking for them to be a mentor and also feel more comfortable showing up in spaces. Like, you know, work off offsite events, right. Like lots of work offsite events, at least historically were like you know, usually they're sports events, they're, you know, happy hour, golf events, what have you. So, if you come from a space where you're familiar with that, it's easy for you to just an acclimate to that. If you come from a space where you didn't have access to that, it's a lot harder for you to navigate that space in the workplace and create more accessibility for yourself. And so that's where equity comes in. It's having the organization find ways to create that level of fairness. So, the best visual that actually someone shared with me, an anecdote is, you know, equality is giving everybody a pair of shoes, a pair of sneakers, let's say. Equity is giving everyone a pair of sneakers that fit their feet.
Steve Rush: It's a great analogy. Love it. So, the workplace has changed over the last few years with the pandemic and our approaches and responses to that. How do you see that that's impacted on how firms are dealing with DEI now?
Martine Kalaw: Yes, that's a really great question. So, what I've seen is in the last two years, so prior to the murder of George Floyd, because I really think that's what sparked this new, you know, movement across organizations, quite frankly, globally, before that it's not that diversity, equity and inclusion didn't exist. It did. But at that, you know, before that it was really focused on diversity, right.
Steve Rush: Right.
Martine Kalaw: It was focused on diversity and there was less of an emphasis on equity, less of an emphasis on inclusion. This is generally speaking. And you know, when you look at the numbers and the statistics in the workplace, white women were the prime beneficiaries of those diversity initiatives, right. And so then, two and a half years ago with, you know, the murder of George Floyd, things shifted, there was a greater awareness that whoa, you know, there's a lot of inequity, that's still trickling into the workplace, right. That's happening nationally, but it's trickling into the workplace because the same people that are in, you know, that are in society are also going into work, right. So, we can't distinguish these two, these two worlds collide and that's in the workplace. And so initially organizations, again, generally speaking, were responsive or reactive to what was happening, right. There was a level of reaction because employees or staff members were hypersensitive and hyper aware, right. And almost like daring the organization to do something, fix this. So, organizations generally speaking were reactive and trying to like quickly fix things and quell the concerns of their employees, right. The responses with that with, a lot of programs, let's come up with programs, let's give money to this organization. Let's have an internship program and bring, you know, look at interns from certain colleges and universities that we wouldn't have looked at before, at least in the U.S., historically black colleges and universities, HBCUs, right.
Things like that, very reactive. So that's not a bad thing because I think the programming was important, but the thing is, there are two issues with that. When you have program without strategy, it's really hard to sustain the initiative. And when you don't have strategy, it's hard to position what you're doing as a real business imperative, right. It doesn't seem like a business structure. It seems more of like something you're just slapping on a band aid, and you know, wanting to move on. So that was the first challenge. The second was the fact that the same people were doing the work, we're being charged to do the work, mainly human resources professionals who don't always have the experience or the expertise. They are also oftentimes already overburdened by their workload. They were being charged with the responsibility of doing this work. As well as, you know, employee resource groups, basically employees who are part of underrepresented communities or are allies, right. So, the same individuals we're being charged with this responsibility, right. And that's exhausting. It also means that everyone else wasn't as involved. And what we know is that if not everyone is bought into an initiative, it's not going to work, right. You need leadership's involvement; you need manager's involvement. So that's really where we are at the moment. And the organizations that really want to do the real work are reaching out to consultants like myself, they're reaching out to others, right. They're bringing in chief diversity officers and saying, look, we want to go beyond just the performative and you know, with programs, we want to have strategy.
We want to have our leadership involved in this. We want DEI to be positioned as part of the business strategy. We want to be able to tie metrics to things, right. We want to be able to connect our programs with a larger initiative so we can scale these programs. So that's where we are now, right. So not just about training and programs, training is great, but training has to be reinforced with strategy. So that's where we are now where organizations are at this, impasse where they can either keep doing what they're doing and being you know I guess their employees are feeling impatient and are putting the pressure on them or they can actually start to really build strategy and make DEI part of their business structure.
Steve Rush: And let's be realistic here as well. Those businesses aren't, are also missing out, not on just massive opportunities to unlock human potential, but there's also a direct correlation to return on investment too, isn't there?
Martine Kalaw: That's it. I always talk about the ROI of DEI. And so that is, one of the very first things that I do in working with organizations is, especially if I'm working with human resources, professionals, not directly with the like the, you know, CEO is getting that HR professional to identify what that return on investment is so that they can position it to the leadership, right. Discussing ROI is the common denominator. The challenge that we've had historically with DEI is, certainly there's an emotional quotient component to it. That's the most significant component. Stories, people's experiences, experiences of employees and how they felt marginalized. The biases they may have experienced, that is critical. But when we start with that approach, what we end up doing is, we exclude indirectly and unintentionally. Exclude anyone who doesn't understand that. Who cannot relate to this story, right.
Steve Rush: Right.
Martine Kalaw: People feel either shamed or blamed or they just don't get it. So, they tune out, right. And then again, we're just reaching to the cryer, the same people who have the issue are the same people engaged in these conversations. So that's why I always recommend starting with return on investment, let's look at the value that DEI can bring to the organization. Let's look at the numbers. Like let's actually find what that metric is. If your business to business, business to consumer organization, there is a possibility, there's always a possibility of increasing market share. There are certain markets we have not considered if we're providing a service or a product, right. And so that is where DEI can actually help. If you educate your salespeople and they are much more savvy and they're representative of a larger group of individuals. There's more representation in your salespeople let's say, or if they have more sensitivity in navigating DEI, then they're more likely, they'll know how to reach and look for new markets, right.
Explore markets they haven’t considered. And once we've attracted those markets, it's building those relationships, that rapport with those markets. So that's one way, for example, that a business to consumer organization can benefit. Revenue wise, ROI wise from DEI. When we talk about business to business, same idea in terms of retention, in terms of building those relationships and attracting new partners, right. I mean, if you're business to business, think about the clients that your partners or that business you're supporting, think about who their clients are, think about who their customers are. And if we're supporting them, we also need to understand their clientele. We also need to help them or support them in reaching a larger market share. We also need to make sure that we're able to create more diversity in our partners, right. So, these are ways in which we can actually measure ROI. We can look at the retention of our partners. We can look at recruiting and gaining more partners. And what does that mean in terms of our dollars? So, there are direct correlations between DEI and return on investment. And what I encourage is for organizations to start there, start with that number, start with what the cost, right. What we think the estimated cost of bringing in a chief diversity officer, bringing in a consultant, you know, doing this work might cost. And then let's talk about what the potential return could look like.
Steve Rush: Yeah, love it. Now you wrote the book, The ABCs of Diversity.
Martine Kalaw: Yes.
Steve Rush: Let's quickly just spin through the ABCs and dive into a couple of them.
Martine Kalaw: Yeah, I mean, the ABCs is kind of what I, I alluded to this a little bit earlier, which was, a lot of the work is dumped on human resources and I use the word dumped intentionally, because that's how it feels like, right. It feels like a burden to them, to them and sometimes employee resource groups or diversity, task forces, because these are individuals that don't always have the expertise. They can come to this from a very emotional standpoint. And so, it's really unfair to expect them to have all of the responsibility around DEI. So, the ABCs of diversity, by the way, the subtitle is a manager's guide to diversity, equity, and inclusion in the new workplace. So really what this book really encapsulates are two main things. One is that when we approach the conversation of DEI, we make it sometimes over complicated, right.
It's very ethereal. There's a lot of jargon. A lot of you know politically correct terms and people are so afraid of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing, that they'd rather disengage and not involve themselves in DEI conversations. But what I want people to understand is that, okay, we don't have to focus so much on the jargon, the terminology, it's really the fundamental practices, the fundamental things that we do. And a lot of it can be driven by managers. So, when we think about who shapes and influences the makeup of an organization, there are two main groups, human resources, and managers, managers influence hiring decisions. They influence compensation decisions. They influence promotion decisions. They influence attrition when people decide to leave, right. All of that is influenced by managers and they're working in tandem with human resources.
So, what we get to do is pivot our lens when we look at all those elements, those foundational elements of being a manager and consider how we can have more representation and less bias in these different areas, right. And so that doesn't require learning all this terminology and jargon. It just requires thinking a little bit more broadly. So, for example, as hiring managers, one of the things we can do differently, we're looking at resumes is, asking our talent acquisition or recruiting team. I'm seeing like a lot of similarities across these resumes. Like it seems like all of these individuals are from the same region. This is just me speaking, hypothetically. Is there a possibility that we can look at other resumes more broadly? Can we look at other resumes or can we look at candidates from other regions? right.
This is just a small way as hiring managers, we're looking at, we're interviewing candidates and we immediately feel we have this affinity bias, right. Where we have a preference for someone because, oh, they went to this college and you've heard of this college, or you're familiar with this college. Well, what we can do is, manages go, oh, wait a minute. I'm picking up on the fact that, you know, I feel more, you know, I have this affinity, this person, just because of what I'm seeing on the resume, let me then assume, what if every other candidate went to the same college, right. Let's rule out. Let's take that one scenario or that one qualifier out. And let's focus on all the other, whether the candidates who actually can do the job, right. And when we're interviewing candidates, let's see how we can be consistent in the way, the order in which we ask questions.
Let's also invite other people on our teams to interview these candidates, right. And when they are interviewing candidates to avoid influence, influencing our decision, let's have, you know, the other people are interviewing candidates, our candidates. Just share their feedback to the talent acquisition team rather than to us, right. And we don't actually hear, or, you know, know what they're thinking until the end, after we've made our decision on how we feel about the candidates. So, these are things that we can do as managers. Another example of creating, establishing inclusion as a manager or equity is mentorship, right. So, as you know, a lot of organizations, some organizations don't have formal mentorship programs. And as I mentioned, based on your background, some people might come into a company and feel really comfortable looking for a mentor. They might be invited to certain spaces like golf events, like a happy hour, where they will engage and build relationships and then ask someone to be their mentor.
What I can say is not everyone has that familiarity or that confidence, not everyone is invited to the same events in the same spaces in the workplace. So as a manager, what we can do is, we can establish a way to make sure that everyone on our team has access to a mentor. We can invite mentors to come to our meetings, invite our senior leadership, to come to our weekly meetings or biweekly meetings with our teams and let people know that, you know, make sure everyone on the team understands that, you know, you can access and reach out to this person if you need a mentor, right. These are subtle things that we do to create equity, right. Create fairness, accessibility. So that's the ABCs of DEI, right. Its common knowledge. Things that we're already doing as managers, but we just don't realize that this is actually reinforcing DEI, right.
And it's natural. It's much more organic than thinking, okay, I have to put on my DEI hat, and you know, I have to use this specific terminology. So that's really what the ABCs of DEI is. And it's really meant to be a workbook, you know? So, when you open it up, it really actually is a primer. It reads like a workshop, like you're in a workshop. And at the end of each chapter, it's 150 pages, not long. At the end of each chapter, there are two takeaway exercises. One is for self-reflection and the other is something you can take back to your team and implement as a manager. So, there's actual application.
Steve Rush: Awesome. Now we're going to give folk a chance to get hold of a copy or find out how they can get hold of a copy in a moment. So, I'm going to flip the lens very quickly, do some quick, short fire, top leadership hacks. What be your top three leadership hacks?
Martine Kalaw: My top three leadership hacks would be you know, one is, to be transparent and vulnerable, right. I would just combine those two. Transparency. I mean, as leaders, we can't be completely transparent with everything, but at least walk people through why you're doing what you're doing. They'll appreciate it more. They feel like what they're doing, adds value to the end goal. So being able to be transparent in that way and being vulnerable. If you have challenges, if you have issues, things aren't going the way that you ideally wanted them to. It's okay to share that with your team as a leader because what they're observing is how you respond to it, the solutions, your problem-solving abilities, that becomes an example for them.
So that's one leadership hack. Another leadership hack for me would be to find people who are smarter than you, to be, you know, part of your team. You know, I think as leaders, sometimes we're afraid that somebody's going to outshine us, but really what we want to do is bring people who have skills that we don't have, because what that ends up carrying us, if they grow, we grow, right. And so, I do believe that's a really important one that I've always you know, believed in and it's really been beneficial to me. And the third leadership hack would be, I have to think about this one. I would say, always be on quest to learn. So maybe that's more humility or just always learn. As leaders, we can never know enough. We're always learning, learn from our team members. The people who report into us. Learn across the board, pick up a book, read. There's always something we can learn as leaders, right. And so as long as we show up in our role as leaders in that way. We're always going to continue to grow and be better than who we were the day before.
Steve Rush: Awesome advice. Now you shared the biggest Hack to Attack that we've ever heard, which is your story up front, but if you could give yourself some advice when you were 21, what would that be?
Martine Kalaw: Ah, that's a great one. If I could give myself advice when I was 21 was to, trust the process, right. Meaning like, I'm a little bit of a magical thinker in a sense that, you know, if you take action and you do everything that you need to do, sometimes things just need to kind of work themselves out, right. Kind of like everything has to sort of be synchronous, and it takes a little bit of time. And I think that's something that, you know, millennials, you know, Gen Z, like, you know, there's sometimes a level of impatience right, with things. And so sometimes, you know, put all the pieces together, do your part and then give it a little bit of time, right. For things to come together. So, trust the process a little bit.
Steve Rush: That's great, and that's definitely been the case for you. You've a perfect walking example of that. So, thank you so much. So, Martine, conscious, we want to make sure we can get our guests to connect with you beyond today. Find out a little bit about the books that you've written and maybe buy a copy. Where's the best place to send them?
Martine Kalaw: Perfect. you can go directly to martinekalaw.com, www.martinekalaw.com. And when you go there, you'll have access to the link from my book, which is on Amazon. So, you can purchase the hard copy and you can also purchase the audio book on audible. So, if you go to my website, it'll give you the link to both of those sites. And certainly, on my website, you also have access to sign up for my complimentary, otherwise known as free master class, which is coming up on July 21st. I usually have a monthly one-hour monthly masterclass where I really work with human resources professionals. And I offer them the five things that they can do within the next 90 days to really drive DEI in their organizations.
Steve Rush: Awesome.
Martine Kalaw: And so that's something that you can sign up for if you go to my website.
Steve Rush: We'll also put those links in our show notes as well. Martine, I wish you had more time to chat. I really love chatting to. You’re such a great advocate of doing exactly what's right for folk when it's right. So, thank you ever so much for taking time out of your super busy schedule, being with us on our Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Martine Kalaw: Thank you so much, Steve. I enjoyed it too.
Steve Rush: Thank you, Martine.
Closing
Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers.
Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.
Timothy Bradshaw is former British Army Intelligence Officer and graduate of the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. His work as a Covert Human Intelligence Officer and Target Acquisition Patrol Soldier saw him recruit and run foreign agents worldwide and influence the outcome of extremely sensitive and dangerous situations. Recently, he’s been running aid missions to the Ukraine. He’s a keynote speaker and author of the book, “Because I Can”.
This is packed full of leadership lessons including:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Tim below:
Tim on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothy-bradshaw/
Tim’s Books: Because I Can
Tim on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TimBecauseICan
Tim on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/timothy.bradshaw/
Tim’s Website: https://www.timothybradshaw.net
Full Transcript Below
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Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
Our special guest on today's show is Tim Bradshaw. He's a foreign British Army Intelligence Officer and recruited and run foreign agents worldwide as a Human Intelligent Officer. He's also the author of a great book, Because I can, but before we get a chance to speak with Tim, it's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: Leadership is about us everywhere. And I wanted to dive in to find some funny, and innovative ways of us, bringing some of those leadership lessons to life. So, if ever you've watched a movie Star Wars or any of the Star Wars Trilogy, you'll find loads of leadership lessons packed within there. Yoda is one of my favorites. He has this great saying that said. Do or not do, there is no try. And I'm often using that lighthearted analogy with any of my coaching conversations, but a long time ago in a galaxy far away, the leadership lessons were created amongst this epic series of films.
So, here's a few, it's been proven that being born with talent is not enough. As we all know, Luke Skywalker is born with a natural talent to be a Jedi. Yet when, we watch the movies. We know that was not a given. He had to work hard at that. We watched Luke come to grips with putting himself in challenging situations and homing in on that force. And there are traits of good leadership, but true leadership takes place, self-reflection and mentoring, which we also saw through their relationship with Yoda. Adaptability is also a key leadership lesson throughout the Star Wars movies, all of those Star Wars movies demonstrate that life does not always go to plan. And if you are rigid in your plans are stuck in your ways, you're not going to win. From Han Solo, adapting, a broken hyper drive by hiding by the rubbish shoot instead of a surprise alliance along the way. If you're able to adapt and think quickly, you're able to lead a team through any surprises. We know it's okay to ask for help as leaders. Sometimes you can't get yourself out of a situation without calling on someone else. When Princess Leia was in a bind, she'd always know the right people to call and ask for help without hesitation. Some good leaders need other good leaders to advise them on their journey. And the one thing that is really true across all of the movies that chasing power is the path to the dark side. Leaders undeniably have power and authority, but leadership is much more than that. Once you begin to be at attracted to power and to chase power, you are heading to the dark side. Good leadership is all about sharing power and authority and creating more leaders. It's about people with good ideas and evolving those good ideas so that everyone becomes more powerful. So, the next time you hear yourself saying, I'll try, just think you've been Yoda. Do or don't do, there is no try. Let's get into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Timothy Bradshaw, is a special guest on today's show. He's a former British Army Intelligence Officer and graduate of the Royal Military Academy of Sandhurst. His work as a Covert Human Intelligent Officer and Target Acquisition Patrol Soldier saw him recruit and run foreign agents worldwide and influence the outcome of extremely sensitive and dangerous situations. Recently Tim's been running missions to Ukraine, delivering really, really important aid. He's a keynote speaker and he's also the author of the book, Because I can. Tim, welcome to the show.
Timothy Bradshaw: Thanks Steve. Thanks very much for having me on.
Steve Rush: Really looking forward to getting into the diverse world of Timothy Bradshaw. And remember from the first time that you met and how you described what you did in the army and in your work as an Intelligence Officer, I think I might have called you the James Bond [laugh] at the time.
Timothy Bradshaw: I mean, that's very flattering and unfortunately every time somebody says that I caught so much flack off all of my friends, but.
Steve Rush: [Laugh].
Timothy Bradshaw: I'll take it Steve. I've definitely been called worse things.
Steve Rush: I think your response to me at the time, Tim, if I remember rightly was, and you might have had the work of James Bond, but you certainly didn't have the dinner suits and the expense account.
Timothy Bradshaw: No, absolutely not. And I'm still waiting for the Aston Martin as well.
Steve Rush: That's it, yeah. So, tell us a little bit about you Tim, your early backstory and give that listens a little bit of a spin through to how you've arrived to do what you do.
Timothy Bradshaw: It's not that exciting, Steve really, which I think is almost kind of the point. You know, we talk about resilience and all this sort of stuff and actually I haven't done anything that essentially anybody else couldn't have done if they wanted to. I did my A-levels. I finished school. I kind of looked at university alongside everybody else and realized that I was doing that really, because that was kind of what everybody else did. Not really what my sort of passion was, and maybe there's a bit of a theme there that'll continue. So, I was offered a place to go to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst. I literally just turned 18 in the October and went in the January. So was really very young. I quite often laugh when we talk about leadership.
My first ever job out of school was sort of leading 37 soldiers aged 19, by the time I got to that point. And frankly probably wasn't very good at it. Who's very good at their first ever job out of school, but I had a lot of training, and a lot of backups. So, made the best I could really. I've kind of never really done anything else. So very much experienced based career, I guess. And I did that and that was the kind of the mid-nineties. And I went out to Germany. Ironically, it's really funny looking back now, I say funny, slightly tongue in cheek, but obviously we were very much kind of the end of the sort of cold war doctrine and everything we were looking at was very much basically about the Russian Army coming across the Eastern German planes which with what's going on now, obviously out in Ukraine, seems a little bit surreal, to be honest.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: But anyway, and I sort of did that for a bit and it was bit of a lull really, an activity, certainly for the sort of regular army at the time. And then I pursued a career in training after I served out my commission and subsequently once sort of Iraq and Afghanistan kicked off, I looked to go back to the military. I felt as though I had kind of unfinished business and hadn't finished serving yet. I've always had quite a strong desire to serve rightly or wrongly. So, I decided to go back and a friend of mine had said to me, oh, you should look at, you know, look at reserves and I said, crikey you’re joking. You know, to me, the TA sort of, as was, was dad's army. And, you know, that's absolutely not the case anymore. So, I went through a patrol selection course, which is a particularly arduous sort of running over the Hills, big ruck sacks, small teams, very much becoming self-reliant, self-sufficient, relying on your teammates in small groups as a buildup, really to go towards Afghanistan. And then I kind of thought to myself, well, if I'm going to do this, I want to do something that perhaps my interim years as a civilian brings something to the party rather than putting me behind the curve. So Human Intelligence is, is exactly that, it's about building relationships and influence. And actually, you know, we always sort of joke, but if you having to use the cars as the guns, you've kind of got it wrong, essentially. It's absolutely about building relationships and influencing people. So, bit of a sucker for punishment, really, I put myself through yet another grueling selection process.
Steve Rush: [laugh].
Timothy Bradshaw: Its theme isn't it, really. And we did that. I passed a course and then what ensued was a fascinating few years working with some truly inspirational people on all sides of the divide, really. Some of those obviously worked for essentially terrorist organizations. Some of those were people that absolutely keen to help their communities. But the theme was always the same. It was always about relationships and influence. And I was doing some keynote speaking the other day and I sort of laughed and somebody ask, how could you sum it up? And I was trying to think of a sort of corporate analogy. And I said, well, imagine trying to lead or influence somebody that not only do they not work for you, but in fact they work for your biggest competitor. And that was about the best I could come up with really. Obviously trying to persuade somebody who has very strong views of their own that actually there might be a different way or a better path and to give you, essentially feed you in intelligence.
So yeah, so that's what we did. Did that for a few years, which was truly fascinating. Couple of tour Afghanistan. I did point out to somebody recently whose head went down a little bit talking about lockdown. And I think I calculated that I have actually spent more time in Afghanistan than I have in lockdown.
Steve Rush: Wow, yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: And I don't actually know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, to be honest with you, but it is a fact. And then I think having left the military. Again, I have a very low boredom threshold Steve, which I think is, probably the theme. But actually, for me, I've always been quite a big advocate of mental health. I've always struggled a little bit with sort of depression and anxiety. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just the way my brain works really. And you know, it's a bit like a bank account in some of the respects. You take out, so therefore you have to pay back in. Anyway, we decided as a team must that we try and climb Mount Everest and shout from the highest point on earth that it was okay to ask for help. So, we did, we picked the wrong year. We did it in 2015, which those of you that into mountaineering or the region will know was when all the sort of major earthquakes hit. So, we found ourselves in the middle of one of the biggest natural disasters sorts of ever to happen, certainly in that region, really. So again, it kind of turned on its head our whole outlook on what was going on and certainly tested our resilience in a very different way to the one we perhaps spent two years planning and training to do.
Which again, I think we talk about leadership aren’t we Steve really. For me, that's one of the themes is, it's that ability to flex, adapt and overcome actually, rather than when it's all going perfectly.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: And then, yeah, and then having done that, we've transitioned into doing this and we do all sorts of wacky stuff. And then we now run a company. And for me it's about, can I share my lessons as accurately as possible? We were joking, weren’t we Steve, just before we went live that there's a lot of self-help stuff around, you know, and it's like, yeah, get a growth mindset, do this and do that. And you kind of think, yeah, I'll do that, how?
Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly.
Timothy Bradshaw: And that's really what the book was about. The book was a kind of user guide almost to dealing with some of these problems. So rather than a kind of conceptual you know, big yourself up and feel better, it was right, do this. When this happens, do this [laugh] and I guess that then led, I was sitting on the sofa, we were watching what's happening in Ukraine. And my now wife looked at me and said, you could probably do something to help that couldn't you. And I said, yes, I can. And she said, well, then you should. So, we put a team together and we've now delivered three quite successful aid missions. But I would think the point I'd like to make is, that we've built a network of people inside Ukraine. So, we've got live communications almost on a daily basis. So, we know exactly what people need and what challenges that they're facing. And we are taking that aid specifically and delivering it directly to the people that need it. So, we met, appreciate we're not going to share their names here, but we shared directly, we drove out to Kyiv, which is where we were last week. And we met with these groups, and we hand over exactly what they need. And fortunately, that's captured the imagination of a number of large corporate businesses that have really helped us out actually.
Steve Rush: Right.
Timothy Bradshaw: But I think that's because again, it's not faceless.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: Steve, I think that comes back to our theme of kind of leadership and relationships, right?
Steve Rush: Does Tim, yeah. And homage to you genuinely. One of the things I know about you Tim, is that you see danger very differently to other people that I've, you know, come into contact with specifically in the business world. You almost see this as an opportunity, it's alluring for you. And I just wondered to, I wanted to unpack a little bit about that with you, because it seems to me that you are almost attracted to that danger and ambiguity that comes with things like running an aid mission to Kiev.
Timothy Bradshaw: I think, I'm not I’m necessarily attractive to it, but I certainly see opportunity in it. So, we often at the moment sort of voker is quite a big thing, right? Vulnerable, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous, and we can use all the analogies you want. But for me, there's always then opportunity because if everything is absolutely, you know, tickly, boom and perfect and jogging along then we often joke that's the point that you need effective management rather than necessarily an effective leadership. And I think if you look at sport as an example, you know, if you look at rugby in offense, you're trying to create a break in the back line, right. Or if you see a break in the back line, then there's the gap that you need to get through for your Canadian and American listeners, that's a real sport where you don't wear armor and helmet and stuff.
Steve Rush: [Laugh], nothing like a little bit of counter finishing in the mix there.
Timothy Bradshaw: [Laugh] But by understand that the theory is probably very much the same, you know, you are looking for that break in the back line, right, to go through the gap. And I think that the same is true. I'm sure it's true in ice hockey. But I think the same is true in business. If everything is the same, then you are unlikely to either improve or get a different result. And for me as an effective leader, really, you should be seeking out the change or the opportunity, but of course that's uncomfortable for people. So, if you can create a toolkit that enables you to initially deal, I guess, with like the biological reaction to change and stress and then see clearly and find the opportunity. So yes, I mean, Steve, I do see it as an opportunity, but that's because if something's changing, then maybe it's a chance to get in front, you know, if anyone watch the Formula 1 that was on at the weekend, the minute it rains, the teams down the back of the grid a little bit, see an opportunity, don't they?
Steve Rush: Yeah
Timothy Bradshaw: And it's the same theory.
Steve Rush: Absolutely, yeah. So, in terms of your experience of diving into Ukraine recently, you talk about resilience in your work a lot. What have you noticed about the resilience of the people in some of those war tone areas you've met recently?
Timothy Bradshaw: Oh, I mean, Steve. It's phenomenal. I was trying to describe this to somebody the other day. It’s both harrowing and inspirational in the same breath. You know, you're talking to people, some people have lost their whole homes, their families and everything else, but then those same people have a look in their eye, and they are not taking a step backwards. They are refusing to take a backwards step. And that would be enough for me to want to support them regardless of any benefit to the UK or anybody else anyway. Because I just always think that level of courage should be at least supported if not rewarded. But again, you know, when we go into businesses and we talk about clear communication and perhaps more importantly, a unifying purpose, you know, a focus and outcome that we're trying to achieve, then that's the ultimate outcome isn’t it, right? When somebody invade your country.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: That defense of your home or your family. I mean, that has to be the kind of ultimate unifying purpose I would think.
Steve Rush: And I suspect, and you'll know this more than most. In war tone situations, period, you find a deeper, more meaningful resilience than you'd ever have anticipated in the world of business. I mean, the things that we get stuck up and worried about and stressed about in our world of business, pale insignificance in those situations, don't they?
Timothy Bradshaw: Well, there's no way-out Steve, which is what I think's interesting, okay.
Steve Rush: Right.
Timothy Bradshaw: So, I remember talking to somebody about special operations, special duties, special forces, selection processes, and the theme all over the world different, you know, every country has its own variance, but the theme is always one the same, it's adapted and overcome and adapt and overcome. But actually, if you talk to the selection teams, a lot of them will tell you that the biggest dropout rate is in fact, not on the course, is the day before because people get the jitters the day before they go, because they are anticipating what's coming. And they have an option. So, they don't turn up, they talk themselves out of it or believe it or not, the vast majority of people that go through all these processes, they don't get failed. They what's called VW, they voluntarily withdraw. In other words, they quit because they have an option to quit.
Steve Rush: Right.
Timothy Bradshaw: And I think when we work with businesses, there is always an option to quit. And I think when we, you know, implement something new, push ahead with a new process or a system or a change, whatever that might be, there's always the option to go back to where we were before or to opt out. And I think when the pressure comes on and when you get nervous that kind of opt out to your comfort zone becomes more alluring, right?
Steve Rush: Right, yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: When somebody has invaded your country [laugh] and it's your home, you just don't have that option. So, you have to keep marching forwards almost at all costs. And that's why I think in these situations you see such, all inspiring levels of sort of courage and resilience because the option to sort of take the easier routes gone, is it's been removed. So, people dig really deep and they find whatever it is that's, you know, inside themselves.
Steve Rush: I love the whole notion of there is no get out. There's no plan B philosophy. And that forms mindset that we talked a little bit about earlier. So, there's an example where you can't teach that, you have to experience it in order to shift and create the right set of mindsets. But I do wonder if we apply that level thinking, can that impact on our mindset, do you think?
Timothy Bradshaw: Yeah, because I think once you've done it once or twice and you've proven to yourself, you can, which is for me where the sort of, title for the book came, Because I Can. Then what happens is, you kind of build confidence and it's almost like any new skill you pick up, you know, whether that's a sport or learning to drive or whatever. You go, oh, I can do that. And then you do it just once and you go, I can. And I always say to people, not enough people debrief the wins, you know, we're very quick to debrief the losses, but the problem is, we still don’t know what good looks like. Whereas actually I mean, you know, I've been a ski instructor and stuff like that in the past. It's a passion of mine.
And if you're teaching something to ski and they get it right, and you go, wow, that was amazing. Do that again, that was excellent. They can repeat it. And they have the confidence and the courage almost to repeat it, if that makes sense. And I think that's super, super important. And then you can start to instill that mindset in somebody. So, we have this expression that if you can reward the behaviors that you want to see again, that is ultimately how you change a mindset. And I think certainly professional services businesses at the moment, we have this impression that performance is this kind of perfect thing all the time. And somebody does something 95% correct but we jump on the 5% that they got wrong, and you know, we call them out on it. And then we're surprised when that person doesn't come back to us for more feedback.
Steve Rush: Yeah, so what was the inspiration for the book, Tim?
Timothy Bradshaw: I think it was an idea I had in my head for ages. I'm certainly not academic in any way, shape, or form. For me, it was probably the furthest I've ever been outside of my comfort zone, to be honest. So, I kind of started it and therefore had to finish it. And I just wanted to have a little bit of a user guide for people. You know, you do seminars and you do keynote speaking and you kind of hand out notes and PDFs and it's all bit old hat, isn't it? So, I just sort of let's do something a bit different. So, a lot stuff I talk about is in the book, but in terms of, don't do that, do this type of a way. So, I guess a bit sort of, I don’t know, user guide, that was the idea
Steve Rush: And the whole notion of because I can, is that self-talk almost to say that anything is possible, right?
Timothy Bradshaw: Yeah, absolutely. The whole thing, because I think sometimes you just have to remind myself, I can do this. I can do this. You know, I've been through various selection processes. We've talked about before, down various big mountains and on a number of occasions, I've found myself having to remind myself like, you've got this, you can do this. And I think it's also, it's about finding ways to do something, finding ways to make something happen. You know, we were talking in the past about leadership and taking decisions under pressure. And how does the military impact on that? And I don't think that the military necessarily guarantees somebody becomes a good leader. But it does guarantee that you become a kind of a good decision maker.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: But the one thing that is really interesting when you work with the military is there is never any question that we are going to do anything other than achieve the task, if that makes sense.
Steve Rush: Yeah, it does.
Timothy Bradshaw: So, the whole theme is focused on achieving the aim. And that's probably the biggest takeout and and that's a theme that runs through the book is, this is what we're going to do. So how do we make it happen? Accepting we're perhaps going to change course a couple of times and you know, it might evolve a little bit, that's okay. But fundamentally, how do we make it happen?
Steve Rush: I'm pretty sure it was you in the past Tim, actually, that taught me that in the military, the first thing you get to learn as a leader is, you have to make a decision.
Timothy Bradshaw: Yeah, that’s right.
Steve Rush: Tell me a little bit about that because I think that's a really interesting frame of mind that, you know, when you are still in a relatively young leadership position or indeed you're running a global organization, is that making the decision is key, right?
Timothy Bradshaw: So, yeah, I think it wobbles. It's really funny. It's a great analogy, right. We've all done it. Imagine you are driving your car and you approach a big roundabout. And I live quite near the A9, the key roundabout, which is, anybody's ever been here near Scotland will know, because they'll have sat there for 40 minutes trying and get across it. And you approach a roundabout and the person in front of you kind of half goes then stops then goes to go, then stops.
Steve Rush: [Laugh], yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: And chaos in ensues, right? Because you kind of go then stop. And then you hit the brakes, believe or not. It's the most common cause of accident, people hitting the back of each other and what's caused all that chaos is indecision. Now, if that person was either waiting for a huge gap, it's frustrating, but you can see what they're going to do, so you work with it. If that person, I swore then, says, I'm going for it anyway, drops a gear and goes for it. Scary as that might be, you can see what they're doing, and you can react to it. It's the indecision in the middle that causes the problem. And certainly, my experience at Sandhurst was, you don't fail Sandhurst to making a wrong decision. If you make a wrong decision, you learn from it, you evolve, but it's the indecision, it's making no decision that will make you fail. Because when you have sort of this sort of wobbly indecisive, that's when the wheels come off, that's when morale drops. That's when the good ideas club get together, that's when people start going off and doing their own thing in opposite directions. And me certainly, one of the biggest things I've learned across everything that I've done is, in high pressure situations, particularly when you're working with educated people is, you can need to provide reassurance and then direction. And that direction is where, you know, the decision-making is, part of giving that direction because you then get forward momentum. And to me, if you can gain forward momentum, then actually, everyone starts to move in that same direction together. And sometimes it'll be quicker than others, but essentially it does work.
Steve Rush: Yeah, now you'd have been faced with a bunch of challenges throughout your careers. And I say careers because they've kind of, whilst it is still one career, there's been number of different facets to what you do. What's been your secret source to overcoming those challenges and turning it into a positive outcome?
Timothy Bradshaw: I think sometimes firstly, understanding it kind of all things must pass, you know, at various situations throughout my life, I've, made mistakes, I've been impetuous, I've done stuff. And I think, oh, why did I do that? And you think the world's kind of ending around you, but as you get older, you kind of realize that actually, okay, it's mistake. It's going to be okay. And these things have a tendency to write themselves somehow and you come out the other side of it. So, I think, you know, accepting that you're going to make mistakes and get it wrong, take whatever lessons you can out of it. It is super important. I think at the moment, particularly we're quite vulnerable to people having huge opinions about things that they know very little about. And I think that's largely down to the ability for kind of social media, for people to kind of take a swing at you, if you like, actually without, you know, people you've never even met [laugh] essentially, and I think that can be quite damaging. So, I think accept the fact that you're going to make mistakes, focus on the bits you can control which is, which is your own performance and the way you react to staff and take feedback from the people you trust. But don't worry too much about the kind of naysayers or the people almost. I think we sometimes come across people, and I think it's a bit of a UK disease at the moment where we almost want people to fail and I think I find that a bit strange, but you see it quite a lot.
Steve Rush: You do, yeah. Where do you think that comes from?
Timothy Bradshaw: I don't know really. I honestly, for me, it's a bit of a complete anathema that is really, I don't really understand it, but whether that's a kind of jealousy thing or whether that's just, I think it's very easy. I can't recite the whole poem off the top of my head, but it's Roosevelt's poem, isn't it? Where he says, it's the man in the fight. You know, don't chastise those that try and fail. And I think sometimes people just, when we're outside of comfort zone or perhaps people are attempting something that somebody else hasn't wanted to try, they almost don't want them to succeed. I personally find that a bit strange, but yeah. Try to override it and get past it.
Steve Rush: Yeah, I think business is becoming more receptive to failure in the old world of what failure might have been and most businesses that I certainly work with and know of, recognize that it's part of success, making those steps and pivoting to something else.
Timothy Bradshaw: Yeah, no, Steve, I actually agree with you and actually if you want to push the boundaries, if you want to learn a new trick, so to speak, you're going to get it wrong a couple of times first, right. But if you want to adapt to overcome, and if you want to grow process, then by definition, you've got to develop and change. And if you're going to develop and change, you're going to do stuff differently. And sometimes that's not going to go quite to plan, I think, sort of accepting that and then also creating a structure within a business so that when that happens, we are supportive of each other. Yeah, we have this expression, covering each other's blind spots.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: You know, so actually we are supporting each other rather than kind of going, oh my goodness me, look at that. Steve made a right mess of that. You know, we should be thinking to ourselves, actually it was brilliant that Steve had to go at that and actually that bit were quite successful. So, if we take those two bits out, support Steve, make sure he's okay. And then let's build on those two elements that work really well. To me, that's much healthier.
Steve Rush: Super, now you mentioned a little earlier on you'd suffered with depression and anxiety in the past. Are you comfortable? Let's go there Tim.
Timothy Bradshaw: Yeah, I don't mind at all Steve. I think it's important that we do talk about it.
Steve Rush: Thank you. So, I know that this is a driving force for you now and you use it as a force of good to push you into other activities. But I wondered if you might just share with our listers a little bit about the journey you've been on and what some of your coping strategies are?
Timothy Bradshaw: Yeah, I mean, for me, it's interesting, right. So, my brain works at speed, as you already know, rightly or wrongly, and I have an ability to latch onto something to focus on that, to not necessarily see some of the boundaries that perhaps other people see and to therefore drive towards achieving that. And that enables me to think very laterally, to get to a location that we need to get to. But that same way my head works if you like comes with a price and the price is that occasionally I then latch the things that I don't need to latch to, or I overthink people's reactions or I overthink the way people come back to me, which then causes me to go into a, we call it, like a negative spiral, sort of catastrophic thinking spiral which is not uncommon with other people. And I face people. I don't suffer from it. I live with it. I don't particularly want curing if that is a thing. Because I am me and the bits of that that make it very challenging. And my wife's amazing at helping me also made me really good at other stuff. So, to me, you kind of can't have one without the other.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: But what I've tried to do, in 2018, we did a year of challenges, which was another terrible idea. And we essentially did an endurance challenge a month, every month for a year. We did like a half iron man triathlon. We climbed the Matterhorn amongst other things. I cycled L'Étape du Tour, which is a terrible idea for any people, in your audience that are mammals, middle-aged men in Lyra and who have push bikes worth more than their cars that they perhaps haven't told their other halves about.
You know, it's the ultimate challenge. You get to cycle the mountain stages like Tour de France. And I was definitely not ready for it and not prepared for it. And it put me to a really dark place. But one of the reasons that we did all these challenges was almost a bit of an experiment on me for me to try and work out, you know, how'd you get through these things and how'd, you cope with it and kind of consciously deal with it. And I think for me, it's about momentum. So, the first thing, we have this expression, it's in the book actually, called fear, false expectation appearing real, and any bits ever suffered with a bit pressure anxiety, one often leads to the other will find the clouds kind of roll in and you start to think, oh, this is going to happen and that's going to happen.
And Steve's thinking this off me, and if Steve's thinking that of me, then this is going to happen and now that's going to happen. But the reality of that is, although that feels quite real to me at the time, the reality is actually not real. It's a perception of what's going on around you. So, what you have to do or what works for me, I've never tell any what they have to do. What's worked for me is, focus on what's real. So almost list the facts. And our company strap line is intelligence, not information. So, list out the facts. This is what's real. This is what I know. And what you'll find is, I find is, that starts to then sort of push the clouds back because now I'm dealing with the reality of a situation, not my perception of a situation. And once that started to happen, you start to gain a little bit of traction.
And then I have this other expression, which is, remember for your big goal. You know, why did I get out of bed this morning, essentially. Ignore the dangerous middle ground and get there by taking small steps. So, in other words, using the tour as an example, two mountains in terms of two of the four we had to cycle up. I was, you know, flat out, done, finished, couldn't do it. But I reminded myself, I was doing it for mental health charities. So therefore, I wasn't going to let them down. That was my big picture.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: On mountain two, if I tried to think about mountain three or mountain four, I would've talked myself out of it, if that makes sense. So actually, what I did was then focus on the next aid station, the next peak, the immediate target in front of me, and we call it micro goal setting. And at one point I could have told you how many lampposts [laugh] were up the final street to the final climb because I was literally going one lamppost at a time.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Timothy Bradshaw: But it's quite a good analogy. So, when that starts to happen, you set yourself a micro goal. So, it's like, okay, can I get this done? Yes, I can. Can I get to the next one of these? Yes, I can. And then gradually that builds momentum. And it sort of starts to take you forward. And I hope that, you know, I hope anybody listening, if that helps just one person, it's not easy. But for me, that's made quite a big difference. And the more times I do it, I now go into a little bit of a routine, and I can find myself start to deal with that
Steve Rush: Amazing insights. Love it. Thank you for sharing that, Tim. I really appreciate it. So, this is where we get to turn the tables a little bit now. So, you've been a army officer, you've led businesses. You now run a really successful consultancy business. So, I want to tap into that leadership mind of yours. So, I'm going to first off, start by asking you to choose and pick amongst all of the lessons that you've collected on your journey and narrow those down to your top three. What would be your top three leadership hacks?
Timothy Bradshaw: Have a toolkit, not a process. Everyone loves a process, right. Everyone, except me. Processes are designed to make sure you get the wing mirror on the car, in the right place at the right time on a production line. They don't work with people. And I'll argue that with everybody all day, so build a toolkit of skills and experiences and in the same way that if you had a problem at home, you'd go to the toolkit and go select the right tool for the right job, rather than blindly following a process, think to yourself, which tool is going to work, you know, for the job that I'm trying to. So, my first one would be, have a toolkit, not a process.
Steve Rush: Nice.
Timothy Bradshaw: The second one as a leader will be, pull not push. Somebody once said to me, always try and be a warrior, not a mercenary [laugh] so, and by that, what I mean is, empathy is an interesting concept, but try and put yourself in the shoes of the people that you are trying to lead and ask yourself, what is it they want out of life?
What is it they want to achieve? And you know, the motto Sandhurst is, served to lead. So, in other words, the leader serves the team, not the other way around. And I think at the moment we have a tendency to go, well, I've made it, I'm the partner, I'm the CEO and whatever. The millions will now run around after me and doing my bidding. Whereas actually, if you can create a pool so that you have a company full of warriors, rather than mercenaries, that are working for a check, then to me, you will achieve far more. And certainly, when crazy stuff happens, like the pandemic or whatever else, that team of warriors are much more likely to rally round and find a way out, rather than sort of simply take the paycheck out, if that makes sense.
Steve Rush: Love it.
Timothy Bradshaw: And then I think my final one would be of the three would just be simply sort of, don't stop and keep reevaluating all of the time, keep reevaluating the situation. I'm a massive believer in John Boyd. The new Top Gun film is out, right. So, I'm about say it's brilliant. I was very skeptical, but no, it was brilliant.
Steve Rush: Yeah, I'm with you.
Timothy Bradshaw: But a lot of people don't realize is that the actual place, fightertown in Miramar came about because a guy called John Boyd who's a Colonel in the American Air Force came up with OODA loop thinking which is, observe, orientate, decide and act, and it goes round in a loop. So, in other words, what happens is, you gather intelligence, you interpret that intelligence, you take a decision, you carry out that action, like your life depends upon it. But then what you do is, you instantly start to observe the reaction if you like that you've carried out and is it working and adjust accordingly? And what that does is it means, rather than having this kind of linear decision-making process where the outcome is, be all an end all. In fact, any decision is simply part of this kind of ever rotating process, where you're constantly adjusting the course. And the best analogy I can think of is sailing. You know, you don't kind of set the course sail for 10 days and hope for the best, then check the compass again. You know, you're constantly checking the compass and constantly adjusting the course. And for me that would be it.
Steve Rush: Great lesson.
Timothy Bradshaw: So, that you're always adjusting.
Steve Rush: Yeah, I love that. I love that last one as well, because the world isn't as linear as people think it is, people are not as linear. Processes and organizations are changing intraday. And having that ability to be fleet of foot is, is really powerful, isn't it?
Timothy Bradshaw: Yeah, totally agree Steve, absolutely. And we're proving that more and more, you know, we kind think coronavirus, and thought, that's done. And then the Ukrainian thing happened and there will be another one, you know, when this is sorted, there will be another one.
Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly. So next part of the show, Tim, we call it Hack to Attack. So, this is typically where something hasn't worked out as you'd intended, it might be something that's gone quite wrong, but you've actually taken that as an experience. And it's now positive in your life and work. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Timothy Bradshaw: I think you've got to; you've got to seek out the positive outcomes from anything you can find to take the lessons out of it. And I think, you know, using an analogy and I guess this is not everybody can use it, but we can use the lessons that come out of. It was, we spent two years trying to pull off the Everest expedition and we got it all sorted. And we got to the mountain, and we thought, wow, this is it. We're going to do it. You know, we all joke sort, you know, book, deal and TV show. And then, when all the earthquakes happened and everything else happened around you, I think the first thing that happened is you kind of feel quite sorry for yourself. And you think that this is outrageous. I put all this time and money and effort, and now this has all gone wrong.
And then you suddenly realize that the people around you have lost their homes and their families. So, whilst you can't help the way you feel, it puts it into context, and I think you have to accept that. And at the time, I kind of walked away feeling like a little bit like of a failure really. Even though they were situations so far out of my control, you know, it's not even fathomable to think you could have controlled that situation. But actually, now we use that experience to help school kids. So, we've spoken to over seven and a half thousand school kids about what it's like when it doesn't quite go to plan about how you adapt and overcome and about how you refocus and how you keep working the problem regardless of what's going on around you. So, in fact, that very negative situation, what was that 2015? So, the best part of 10 years later. Now is providing a very positive input and outcome to schools as to how to overcome the challenge that they faced over the last couple of years. So, I think, like I said, to take out the positive lessons, you know, wherever you can.
Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely. And that was an extreme example of where learning happens, but sometimes the evaluation of the learning is sometimes afterwards, right?
Timothy Bradshaw: Mm
Steve Rush: Mm.
Timothy Bradshaw: Absolutely, yeah.
Steve Rush: So last part of the show, Tim, we get to do some time travel with you. You can bump into Tim at 21, probably just finishing or midway through Sandhurst. I suspect at the time, what would your advice to him be?
Timothy Bradshaw: I think [laugh] when we take decision making or when I teach critical decision making now, which I do a lot of with big corporate. The first thing we tell people is take a tactical pause, which is just take a deep breath for a minute. You know, when you in an airplane, there's a reason why they tell you to put your own oxygen mask on first. And I think it would be, take your time, you know, just pause for a minute and respect the experience of those people around you. And kind of let it happen a little bit, let it come to you rather than necessarily instantly try and force every situation. So just take a minute, take in what's happening to you and have faith that whatever is, you know, is going to come to you at some point, don't necessarily sort of instantly try and force it
Steve Rush: Very wise words. Indeed. So, then Tim, what's next for you?
Timothy Bradshaw: So, we are busy at the moment with keynote speaking and we are currently talking to companies about kind of mindset development programs. I think we are really passionate at the minute. I think there's a huge opportunity at the minute for businesses to really reevaluate how they lead, how they make decisions, how they motivate their workforces and make a change. And I think probably now more than ever, there's a window for people to seize that opportunity and go, we're going to take lessons out of this. The workforce is up for it, we're up for it. And let's see if we can make a difference. So, we're quite keen to kind of be a part of that wave. And then the next mission, we're planning our next trip to Ukraine. The boys and girls that we were talking to the other week have got a massive problem. They haven't got enough vehicles to bring casualties back from the front line to the hospitals. So, we are talking to a few people at the moment, we've set up a charity called the Sandstone Foundation, and we are working to try see if we can't get some four by old fours out to these guys to help them and bring back casualties. So that's the next project, I guess.
Steve Rush: Awesome, brilliant news. And for those folks that listen to this, Tim, I'm pretty certain, they're going to want to know how they can get a copy of, Because I Can. Find out a little bit more about the work you do with Sandstone Communications. Where's the best place for us to send them?
Timothy Bradshaw: Two things, really. The book is on Amazon. Just simply search either for me or for Because I Can or Waterstones, I think have it as well. And the best way to find out or get in touch is via LinkedIn. So, Timothy Bradshaw on LinkedIn and I would love to hear from anybody. I love learning. I love talking to people. And particularly as I said, if you've got a lot of listeners across, you know, further up field, America and Canada and all over. I'm always fascinated to hear how, what we think resonates elsewhere. So please, yeah. Drop me a line on LinkedIn and then I'll always do my best to respond.
Steve Rush: We'll make sure those links are in our show notes as well, Tim, but I'm just delighted that we've managed to get you on our show. You're an incredibly inspirational guy. You've got such a lot of experience that we can learn from in lots of different parts of our lives and work. So, Tim, thanks for being part of our community on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Timothy Bradshaw: No, thank you very much, Steve. Really enjoyed it.
Steve Rush: Yeah, thanks Tim.
Closing
Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers.
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Frank Forencich is an internationally-recognized leader in health and performance education. A Stanford University graduate in human biology and neuroscience, he has over 30 years teaching martial arts and neuro health education. Frank holds black belt in both Karate and Aikido. He’s a multiple author, including the book, Beware False Tigers: Strategies and Antidotes for an Age of Stress. We can learn lot’s from Frank, including:
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Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Frank below:
Frank on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankforencich/
Frank’s Books: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/507966.Frank_Forencich
Frank on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ExuberantAnimal
Frank on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/exuberant_animal/
Frank’s Website: https://www.exuberantanimal.com
Full Transcript Below
Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
If ever you wonder what the relationship was with the animals in the Savannahs of Africa and our own emotional intelligence, you can find out today. Frank Forencich is an internationally recognized leader in health and performance education. Having studied human biology and neuroscience. He's dedicated his life to understanding the relationship we have with our brains. But before we had a chance speak with Frank, it's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: You'll know if you're a regular listener, there's always top tips and ideas to help you on your way. But we're going to flip that round today and look at things that we can avoid. So here are the five common mistakes that both young and experienced leaders make and how to avoid them. Number one, in properly delegating work, failing to properly delegate work is a number one, common leadership blunder, good leaders, hand out assignments, according to skills and interest. Don't assign a writing assignment to a developer and vice versa. You know, that just makes no sense, right? Another way to innovate and get results is to award certain work with those who volunteer for it. By taking a chance, you might discover unique skills from the person who least expect it. Number two, communicating poorly, feel like you're not providing enough feedback to your team. And it's time to revisit the lines of communication, make it a priority to have open communication, regardless of who it is. Reiterate this need to have weekly meetings, stress the importance of timely replies. Just as long as your team will answer, and you do the same. You can create a huge swell of energy that's positive. Overcommunication in a crisis is even more relevant, but the hack is to set out sometimes and set out some expectations of what it is you are intending to send and receive from your team. Number three, focusing too much on strategy and not enough on day-to-day tactics.
Some leaders get blindsided by the alluring strategy rather than the day to day, but it’s these everyday tactics require strong focus in order to arrive at your final solution in the first place. I used to call these BBCs or basic, but critical behaviors, things that you expect to see happen that are task driven and focused on outcomes. They're all people centric, and you're able to connect the dots to your strategy, but those daily basic routines help you on your longer journey. Number four, failing to balance a hands-off approach with micromanaging. Many leaders are either two hands off or they over manage. The optimum solution is to find the balance between the two and to help you get there, accountability and empowerment are the two triggers. Get your accountability and empowerment imbalance you create more leaders and high performance.
Number five. Forgetting to teach, train, motivate, and reward. Ongoing training and learning and development is not only vital for the individual, but for the entire company. There are thousands of online seminars for pretty much any discipline, especially in things like digital, many are free. And for those that aren't, you might be able to pay them through relationships. Doesn't have to be a direct cost. And of course, the biggest learning comes from doing. The experiences you have that naturally occur across your organization. Sometimes helping people recognize that actually that is exactly what's happening. They are learning is part of that process. Next is motivation. Now you've pretty much worked out I would imagine that you can't actually motivate anybody, but you can create the right environment for those to be motivated in whether it be a senior group of people or junior staff. It's more important that you find those good old-fashioned things that are really important to them. Understanding their internal and intrinsic motivations will really help you connect the dots and the purpose of the work that they do. The things that make them tick.
And it's a mistake, but many leaders just don't even ask, what is it that motivates you? And lastly, reward, if an employee excels, provides more bonuses, small gestures of thanks, doesn't have to be huge amounts of bonuses, but again, linked to intrinsic motivation can make a world of difference. And of course, it'll be different for everyone, but find out, ask a question, how do you like to be rewarded? And you'll also get some great data that you can rely on as a leader.
Leadership mishap and blunder are an inevitability. We're going to do it. The most important thing is to learn from those blunders along the way. So as leaders, we can truly be in the service of our teams. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. And thank you to Rebecca, one of our listeners who encourage us to look at this from a different lens to flip the context and to look at this as a lesson learned activity, let's dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Frank Forencich is a special guest on today's show. He's an internationally recognized leader in health and performance education. He's a Stanford University graduate in human biology and neuroscience. As over 30 years, teaching martial arts and experience around health and education. Frank holds black belt in both karate and aikido and his many research trips across the world, including Africa, has helped him really get into and study the human origins and ancestral environment. And that's where he got his inspiration from his new book, Beware False Tigers: Strategies and Anecdotes for an Age of Stress. Frank, welcome to The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Frank Forencich: Delighted to be here.
Steve Rush: So, I'm really intrigued at how you can get two black belts and two martial arts, as well as all of the experience you pull together.
Frank Forencich: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: And written many books, Frank. So, I can't wait to get into the journey. Perhaps for our audience. You could just give us a little bit of the backstory as to how you've arrived to do what you do today?
Frank Forencich: Right, well, I first became interested in the martial arts in my early twenties. And this was when I was an undergraduate at Stanford and I was studying human biology and I was fascinated with physicality and with movement. And I thought that there was something there that was very important. And as an educational experience, the martial art was just fantastic for me. It was a time to feel really focused. And I had a lot of really fantastic teachers. And at the same time, I had a professor in human biology who said, if you really want to understand the human animal, you have to go to Africa and study our history. And so, I took him up on that and little by little, all these various pieces started to come together. And later on, I studied athletic training and massage therapy and it's been a really exciting journey to look at the human body where it came from and how it functions. So, I've, been exceptionally lucky in this to have all these opportunities to do.
Steve Rush: And many scholars that kind of walk in your path almost have gone to Africa into the Savannahs and have used that as a backdrop to really understand human behavior, as well as animal behavior, haven't they?
Frank Forencich: Right, and I think it's so essential that we are involved in this because the modern world is kind of an illusion. We tend to believe that the world has always been the way it is now, and we've kind of parachuted into the modern world. But in fact, we have a history, and that history is deep and important.
Steve Rush: And that history I suspect that you talk about is where we had no distractions. We were kind of in our original settings and that's how we were programmed physiologically to behave, right?
Frank Forencich: Right, you can study the stuff directly. But I think for people who haven't studied it is to have a look at the movie. The Gods Must Be Crazy. And you might remember that one where, the first half of the movie, actually the first 20 minutes of the movie, they look at the lives of the Kalahari Bushman in South Africa. And they compare that to the modern, urban people living in Africa. And they really show the mismatch between our original experience and what we experience today.
Steve Rush: So, some of our folk will be familiar with that fight or flight freeze and appease that comes with that physiological response to an environment. But the irony is, that what was created through our evolution to protect us and service in times of danger and need, actually, we now trigger for this, you know, being late for work or I'm behind on a Zoom meeting or something like that, right?
Frank Forencich: Right, and that's sort of the irony. We've created a world, a modern world with a lot of comforts, but at the same time, we've created a lot of new and unique threats to our bodies and our lives and things like computer viruses and phishing attacks and all of these fine print sort of things didn't exist until recently. So now we have, you might say new tigers in camp.
Steve Rush: Yeah, so hence the title of the book, right. Beware of False Tigers.
Frank Forencich: Yes.
Steve Rush: So, what was it that compelled you to write the book and tell us a little bit about it?
Frank Forencich: Right, well, this goes back to my experience in massage school, because of course there was a lot of talk about stress and reducing stress. And the more I looked at that, the more I started to realize this is a major, major theme for the modern world. It's not just feeling a little bit anxious, or it's not just a threat to your own personal longevity or health. This is something that afflicts the entire human population now in a way that's historically unprecedented.
Steve Rush: Right.
Frank Forencich: So, this is a major theme for all of us.
Steve Rush: Yeah, you call these tigers. How do you recognize tigers?
Frank Forencich: [Laugh], well, we recognize them through the limbic system of our brain and our autonomic nervous system. And this is something that happens oftentimes below conscious radar. And we experience a feeling, a threat to our personal welfare. And then we get to try and interpret what that is. You know, the voice of stress is not always that articulate. And we may feel a threat to the organism, a threat to our welfare. And then we get to try and decode what that feeling is all about. So, it's an exercise in learning the world and an exercise in learning who we are.
Steve Rush: And the whole notion of them being false tigers is, we're probably releasing the tigers unnecessarily?
Frank Forencich: Right.
Steve Rush: Would that be a kind of fair take on things?
Frank Forencich: Right, it's always about perception. So, if you have an event in your life and you interpret it as a tiger, but maybe it's really not an actual threat to your life, then you're turning on your fight flight system.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: Unnecessarily, and if you only do that, occasionally, if you get it wrong, occasionally that's no big deal, but if you get it wrong consistently over the course of months and years, then that's going to degrade your health, but not just your health, but your cognition and your ability to function in the world. So, it has huge ripple effects across your entire life.
Steve Rush: The one thing that struck me when I started reading your book, Frank is, why don't they teach us in high school? And why don't they teach us in, you know, kindergarten and junior and primary schools?
Frank Forencich: Oh yeah. That's a big pet pave of mine because this is something that's so important to our ability to function. And yet we mostly ignore it. And the way I pitch this, I say, for the human animal, we have to have an understanding of what's dangerous in the world. And in the paleo, this was always obvious because everybody, even little children in your tribe, in your camp, would've known that carnivores and predators are dangerous and that wildfires are dangerous and fast flowing rivers are dangerous. That sort of thing, and danger, would've been palpable and easy to understand, but now we have all these new threats, and we don't educate for that. It's unlikely that any of your listeners have ever taken a course called what is dangerous.
Steve Rush: That's right, yeah.
Frank Forencich: But we should be doing that. And that would help us sort out genuine dangers from false dangers. And that would seem to be a fundamental part of human education now.
Steve Rush: Yeah, I agree with you. So, within the book, you talk about a couple of things I'd love to unpick them with you. One of which is prime makes predicament.
Frank Forencich: Yes.
Steve Rush: Tell us about that?
Steve Rush: Yes, what is the state of the human animal right now? And then there's of course controversy about all of this. But from my point of view, we are under such a high level of stress. A total stress burden that we're carrying around with us means that we have a population level predicament here. And some of the numbers are staggering. There's like 1 billion people in the world now who have in mental health problems.1 billion people in the world are living with chronic pain. That's like one out of eight. So those are huge red flags that the human animal is having trouble adapting to the modern world. And this gets back to mismatch this idea that we have. These ancient bodies trying to make a go of it in the modern world. Some people do pretty well with that mismatch. And some people adapt easily, but an enormous percentage of people are struggling with that challenge. And by and large, we aren't taking it seriously.
Steve Rush: What's the root cause to that mismatch. Do you think?
Frank Forencich: Well, it's kind of a byproduct of our intense creativity. We are really good at devising innovations and short-term solutions and the world becomes progressively more complicated ever since the industrial revolution. We've had this just escalating series of innovations that the human animal hasn't really had time to adapt to. All of this innovation has happened in the blink of an eye and boom. Now all of a sudden, we're in this new world.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and if we kind of fast forward to, you know, the next 10 years. Thinking about the real stresses of our lives and our times and the real tigers, how do we kind of figure out what's real to us versus what we are fooling ourselves as false tigers?
Frank Forencich: Right, well, I think the number one thing that we have to be doing right now is listening to the science and especially climate science that is without question, the alpha tiger on the planet right now, that is the biggest threat to human welfare, human civilization and our ability to have any kind of a future. So that is the tiger that we have to be working with right now.
Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely. And it's, I guess you could call it a real tiger because we've got the evidence that comes with that.
Frank Forencich: Yeah.
Steve Rush: So much like in the paleo, we could see the, you know, the burning forest. We could see the rapids in the water. We can actually see that happening around us now. So, I guess it helps us make that awareness that it is a real tiger. How do you convince those who are maybe less aware that it is real?
Frank Forencich: Oh, that's a great question. And what I'm seeing is a lot of frustration in the climate community among climate scientists who are saying, we need to convince people that this is real. There's a lot of frustration there. A breakaway group of climate scientists now have become activists. And they're saying the conventional channels really aren't working. So, I'm not sure what it is. I think it's going to take some shocks to the system that are going to make this obvious to more people. But right now, it's an uphill battle.
Steve Rush: You used the word that I just want to explore, which is activist and activism. And I know that's something that you've been really passionate about, but people also get confused with the word, don't they? Because they see it as something that's aggressive and it's contrary. And actually, you have a very different spin on it. I wonder if you could just share that?
Frank Forencich: [Laugh], right. Well, the book I'm currently writing is about activism from a martial arts perspective.
Steve Rush: Okay.
Frank Forencich: The idea here is that we are immersed in a world where their conflict is inevitable. And once again, we don't have much training for that at all. Our educational systems basically ignore that fact of conflict and we don't teach young people how to deal with that. So that's why there's so much angst, I think in people who are trying to make a difference, we basically don't know how. We don't know whether to be hard or soft in our various styles, whether to be linear or circular in the way we approach conflict. So, there's a lot of work to be done there, but I think activism is essential. There's plenty of research to show. It actually improves the quality of our health. When we act on things that we find meaningful, then the body tends to do better.
Steve Rush: That's really interesting perspective too, isn't it?
Frank Forencich: Mm-Hmm.
Steve Rush: And it is that act on something that you're really passionate about, which kind of underpins that whole activism bit, I guess, that what you see in the press and on the TV of activists is usually the far end of, the extreme ends of where people have already been triggered and are probably overplaying that, right?
Frank Forencich: Right, yes. And it's easy to focus on the spectacular acts of activism, but there's a lot of invisible activisms that's going on as well. And it may not be spectacular, but there's a lot of work that people are doing currently that is very important and may not be as dramatic. So, we need to keep that in mind as well.
Steve Rush: Now, for many of the folk listening to this show, they'll be either leading teams or businesses or even leading themselves. And therefore, from their perspective, what do you see as the certain consequences of them not getting hold of this in terms of their managing their stress and their energy?
Frank Forencich: Right, well, there's a whole list of consequences that come when people are under chronic stress. And one of the most interesting for me is called reversion to the familiar. And we all know this in our own personal lives, because if you're having a hard day, what do you want to do? You want to go home and sit in your living room, a place that's familiar to you and you want to read the same books you've always read. You want to watch the same movies that you've always seen. You want to eat the same foods. You want to go back to the familiar and for people who are leading teams, this is also important because maybe you need new ideas. Maybe you need creativity going forward to come up with solutions to the problems you're facing, but the stress, it inclines people to revert to what they already know. And that makes sense, and it's fine in moderation.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: The dose makes the poison here. So, if you go home at the end of a hard day and you revert to the familiar, that's good for you. But if you, do it all the time, you're never going to make any progress.
Steve Rush: Ironically, it could even make the stress worse in the future because the gap between the intention and the act gets bigger, right?
Frank Forencich: Right, exactly. And that's what we're seeing in the world of climate and ecosystem. Collapse is, that as the stress escalates, people are going to just double down on what they already know, and that's going to make solutions even more difficult to arrive at.
Steve Rush: There is a notion too, isn't there. That stress is actually not a bad thing if you get the dose, right?
Frank Forencich: Right, and the way I say it is that stress is a frenemy.
Steve Rush: I like that.
Frank Forencich: And it's a wonderful thing for the body and the mind, small doses of stress are good for us. And this is the job of the teacher, the coach, the therapist, and the leader in an organization is to be precise in how much stress we put people under. And we have yet to really do this in any kind of systematic way. But it's essential to remember that there's an inverse U-Shape curve to this. A little bit of stress is good. A little bit more stress is even better. And then of course there's a tipping point and a reversal where stress becomes bad. But this idea in the standard narrative, that all stress is bad, and that the ideal life is a stress-free life. That's not very helpful.
Steve Rush: Is there another word we could switch out for stress? Because I think it actually has a word itself, it's probably unhelpful. Is there another word you might use that would kind of help us think about stress in a positive way?
Frank Forencich: Right, and that's a good point because it's been worked so hard in the popular press. Everybody seems to think that they know what it is and it's kind of a pigeonhole problem, right. So, one workaround that I use there is, I talk about our encounter with novelty. So, a little bit of novelty is exciting and therapeutic, young children love novelty, right. And they seek it out. Young adults love novelty, more is better, up to a point. And so, you can think of stress of in the same terms. This is our encounter with novelty. A little bit is good. A little bit more is great. Too much novelty becomes toxic.
Steve Rush: I love the reframe because as you've just alluded to, as soon as you mention the word, novelty, people are intrigued. They want to find out. They want to learn a bit more don't they? And that gives them that unconscious permission to dive in a bit deeper.
Frank Forencich: Right, and it's an essential part of our creative process is to have that encounter with novelty. But there has to be limits. There has to be guidelines, and there has to be a recognition that you may be encountering too much novelty. And then you've got to take care of yourself.
Steve Rush: Maybe you can just take us through some of your tried and tested methods for relieving, some of that stress or some coping mechanism solutions, call it what you will?
Frank Forencich: Right, yeah. Well, I've got quite a list here, but the first one of course is to ask the question, is this a real tiger? Or is it not? And that, it seems such a simple approach, but it really works. And it's worked in my life where I'll be worrying about something, and something has dominated my consciousness. And then I take a step back and I say, okay, is this a real threat to my life? Is this a real threat to my future, my welfare? And if the answer is, yes, I have to take action. If the answer is no, I can safely let that thing go. So that's helpful.
Steve Rush: That's really powerful, right. Because in that moment, you're able to pretty much evaluate that whole, is it a real threat or not? And therefore, unconsciously will trigger different chemical reactions in our mind, won't it?
Frank Forencich: Right, right. And you can always revisit it. You can always reevaluate whether it's a genuine threat or not, but it is a powerful starting point. The other bit of advice that I give people is just to say, give yourself a break. I mean, this climate predicament that we're in, this level of mismatch that everyone is experiencing, this is universal across the planet. It's not just you, [laugh], that's experiencing this. And just knowing that in itself can be helpful.
Steve Rush: And if I'm stressed out right now, I'm in the moment, I'm listening to you Frank. What would be the one thing that would enable me to kind of step out of that?
Frank Forencich: The scanner prescriptions are quite good here. I mean, focusing on the breath is really good. And the other bit, I think that's really important is just slowing down. This is another part of a modern world. That's so difficult for us is, that a sense of urgency is very contagious among hyper social animals. So, if the people around you are in a big hurry, which is often the case, then that tends to rub off on us. And then we start speeding up as well. So, the reminder here is, whatever you're doing, slow down.
Steve Rush: And in your experience, Frank, having traveled the world and worked in different locations, studying, not just humans, but also animals. Is there a blueprint we can look at in the animal kingdom that is replicated in how we behave as human sapien?
Frank Forencich: Well, yes. And I had an insight into this when I visited a museum in the American Southwest, and it was a desert museum, and they had all the types of things that you would expect in a desert museum. But we walked around into a courtyard at the museum and there was a large cage there with a wild Jaguar, a wild Panther that had recently been captured. And this was an extraordinary thing to watch that this Panther was pacing back and forth in the cage and exhibiting what you might call hyperactivity or ADHD or whatever you want to call it. The animal was very anxious. And from a modern perspective, you might say, well, that animal was having some sort of a neurological problem or a lifestyle disease or some sort of anxiety disorder. But on the other hand, you look at that animal and say, no, that's an absolutely normal response to being incarcerated.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: And so, for me to look at animals in that kind of situation, and then to look at humans and this epidemic of depression and anxiety that people are experiencing now. I tell people, look, you are not diseased. If you are feeling this way, this is the normal response of a normal animal to these kinds of difficult surroundings. So that's a big stress reliever right there, because.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: Once you realize that your body is behaving the way a normal animal would behave, it's not you [laugh], it's your animal life. And so that I find very helpful.
Steve Rush: You do a lot to help people get out of that environment, don't you? So, you use things like movement, your martial arts as an example of that. Just tell us a little bit about how some of those things can help.
Frank Forencich: Right, well obviously getting outside is crucial and a lot more people are recommending this now, and it makes sense, but it's not just the experience of being outdoors. It's this psychological identification with nature that I think is what we really need to see as native people have done for a very long time now, this thing called nature is not other, it is actually itself. It is actually us. So, when you look at a forest or you look at the ocean, you look at some natural terrain, that is an extension of you. It's an extension of your body, the native people call this the long buy. So that is a very helpful way to look at this as well. The other part of your question there is, with the movement and the martial arts, this movement in a social setting and touching other human animals that has a very therapeutic effect as well, developing rapport with other people through the body that eases our sense of fear, and it makes us feel great.
Steve Rush: Awesome. Really fascinating. I could spend all day picking your brains but.
Frank Forencich: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: Unfortunately, we won't have the time. One of the things I would love to do now though, is just to turn the tables a little bit and dive into your brain, thinking about some of the things you've experienced from a leadership perspective over your 30 plus years in teaching leaders and others to get to grips with their human self, what would be your top three leadership hacks?
Frank Forencich: Well, the first one, and I love this one because it's kind of counterintuitive, I say, treat people like animals.
Steve Rush: [Laugh], right.
Frank Forencich: And, for some people, this sounds so surprising.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: And so shocking because when we use that phrase, we were treated like animals. We tend to think that that was a bad thing. We were on the airplane, and they treated us like animals because that's, I guess, what we've done historically is, we've treated animals poorly, but I turn this thing upside down and I take a veterinary approach to leadership or teaching or coaching, any of these things, look at your people, your students, your clients, your patients as animals first and foremost. And if they're coming into your setting and they're already hyper stressed, now you've got to work with that. Maybe they need more stress. Maybe they need less, but you have to look at what their experience is right now. And that is a whole new domain I think of leadership because we have to look at the physical experience and the psychological experience that people are bringing to the setting.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: Now some people have suggested, well, we need to measure their cortisol levels and that would be a technical approach. But they, I think there's another approach there, it's just more humane and means listening better.
Steve Rush: Yeah, love it.
Frank Forencich: Other leadership hacks. The other one I like from the native and indigenous tradition is called contextual leadership. And this simply means that people are leaders, not across the board, in every situation, but in certain domains. So, you might be a really good leader on the hunt and people in your tribe would recognize that. But when you get back to camp, you might not be such a great leader at preparing food. You might not be such a great leader telling stories around the campfire. Other people are good at that. And this is part of the indigenous tradition that people say, well, you are a leader in this situation, but not in another one. And I think this is something that we can also take to heart and assign and invite people to become leaders in other roles.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and if you think of yourself as an animal in a tribe or a pack, they all have their roles to play and that's good old fashioned, situational leadership, isn't it?
Frank Forencich: Right, and I think in the modern world, we often get this wrong because we say, if a person is a good leader in one domain, then they must be a good leader in all things, but that's best crazy.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: And then the third leadership hack, I think is, just to recognize the power of story and this is so important because the stress response is driven by our perception and our interpretation of reality, which means there is a story body connection. There is a connection between story and the autonomic nervous system. And if we can change or reframe stories, then we can literally working with people's bodies and we need to be better storytellers.
Steve Rush: Love those, their awesome. Thank you, Frank. So, the next part of the show we call Hack to Attack. So, this is typically where something hasn't gone well and maybe been catastrophic, but we've taken the opportunity to learn from it. And now is a force of good in our life or work. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Frank Forencich: Right, well, looking back at my life and some of the mistakes I've made, I can trace some of this back to having a poor understanding of what's called the drama triangle. And you may have heard of this, is a popular theme in the world of psychotherapy and counseling, where therapists have recognized a common pattern. And that's when things aren't going well. We tend to describe ourselves as victims. And when we do that, then we typically blame perpetrators for our situation. And then we go in search of rescue. So those are the three points of the drama triangle. And this is a very popular thing [laugh] that people do. And it sucks us in, because we say I'm a victim. There must be a perpetrator out there somewhere. And so, we blame these people or governments or institutions for our unhappiness. And then we'd go looking for rescue from ideas or ideologies or substances, whatever it is. And when we get immersed in this drama triangle, things tend to spiral out control.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: So, the way out of the drama triangle, as most coaches and therapists recommend, they say, look, you have to be creative, stop blaming perpetrators, stop looking for rescue and start focusing on the creation that you want to do in the world.
Steve Rush: Nice.
Frank Forencich: And that took me some years to realize
Steve Rush: [Laugh], it's nice. I like it a lot, yeah. So that last part I show Frank, we get to do with you is taking you on some time travel. You get to bump into yourself with 21 and you get to give yourself some advice. What do you think it might be?
Frank Forencich: Yes, well, I would say to my 21-year-old self, that taking responsibility, and this goes back to the drama triangle. Taking responsibility is powerful because the more you take on the more meaningful life becomes.
Steve Rush: Mm.
Frank Forencich: And you don't have to just take responsibility for your own personal life. No, you take responsibility for the entire world. And so, for example, I didn't cause climate change, I don't cause racism or sexism or xenophobia or anything, but I do want to take responsibility for those things in the world and doing what I can. So that is a path towards meaning and that is a path towards fulfillment. And my 21-year-old self really would've benefited from that.
Steve Rush: Yeah, mine too. I think [laugh], wise words. So, what's next for you then Frank, on your journey?
Frank Forencich: Well, I'm really excited about this book about martial artistry and activism. The title is The Enemy is Never Wrong and I'm excited about the title because this is a teaching that I had from a martial art teacher some years ago. And he advised us to stop getting emotionally involved in the rightness or wrongness of our opponents. He said, look, whatever the enemy does is just what you have to work with. Don't get attached to any particular strategy or outcome. You have to just take the enemy as is, that's a good teaching there. And that's something that we can do as activists.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Frank Forencich: So, I'm really excited about that title and that concept and that's where I'll be going for the next year.
Steve Rush: Excellent, and I love that notion as well, because more often not, you can get so easily involved in the problem or the solution rather than just seeing it as it is, which when we wind it back to 1.1, being present and in the moment stops those false tigers, doesn't it?
Frank Forencich: Yeah. Yeah. It's a powerful teaching, so.
Steve Rush: Awesome, so how can our listeners get copies of many of your books and indeed find out a little bit more about the work you do beyond our conversation?
Frank Forencich: Right, well, it's easy to remember the website. It's all there, it's exuberantanimal.com and if you type in exuberant animal, you'll get it.
Steve Rush: Cool, and we'll put those any links you have to the various books and work you have in our show notes as well Frank.
Frank Forencich: Nice, nice.
Steve Rush: I've really enjoyed chatting. It's such a fantastic parallel to our world and your work has brought it into the world of business because it's a real thing. We all have tigers. Some of them and in fact more of them are probably more false than real.
Frank Forencich: Right.
Steve Rush: And just understanding them and being able to deal with those can help us become better leaders and better people to work with. So, thanks for sharing your information, Frank, and thanks for being on our community, on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Frank Forencich: Oh yeah. It's been great fun. I've enjoyed It.
Steve Rush: Thank you, Frank.
Closing
Steve Rush: I genuinely want to say heartfelt thanks for taking time out of your day to listen in too. We do this in the service of helping others and spreading the word of leadership. Without you listening in, there would be no show. So please subscribe now if you have not done so already. Share this podcast with your communities, network, and help us develop a community and a tribe of leadership hackers.
Finally, if you would like me to work with your senior team, your leadership community, keynote an event, or you would like to sponsor an episode. Please connect with us, by our social media. And you can do that by following and liking our pages on Twitter and Facebook our handler their @leadershiphacker. Instagram you can find us there @the_leadership_hacker and at YouTube, we are just Leadership Hacker, so that is me signing off. I am Steve Rush and I have been the leadership hacker.
Dr Bob Nelson is author of the multimillion-copy bestseller 1001 Ways to Engage Employees, he’s also is president of Nelson Motivation, Inc. and the world's leading authority on Employee Recognition and Engagement. He has published 31 books that have sold over 5 million copies that have been translated into over 30 languages. In the humorous and insightful show you can learn:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Dr Bob below:
Dr Bob on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/drbobnelson
Dr Bob on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrBobNelson1
Website: https://drbobnelson.com
Full Transcript Below
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Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
Today's special guest is Dr. Bob Nelson. He's a world's leading authority on employee recognition, motivation and engagement. Dr. Bob has authored over 30 books, which have collectively sold over five million copies. Before we get a chance to speak with Bob. It's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: In the news today. We're going to explore how social media can really make a difference to any business of any kind anywhere. So, we're going to look at a fast-food joint when from a local eatery to internet stardom, thanks to iconic memes and a catchy theme tune. And this is a story of Binley Mega Chippy. Now, for those that are in North America and around the world, a chip shop in England is a place where you go to buy French fries and fast food. It started out as unassuming, local, fast-food joint, and it's now arguably the most famous fast-food joint on the planet. For years, it was just like any other English eatery, serving French fries, chips, fish, and of course, other really unhealthy, deep-fried foods.
It's not particularly attractive to look at. It's a vision of red and gold, but it's a reliable Oasis to many people in and around Coventry, but the Internet's taken Binley Mega Chippy and turned it into a TikTok fiesta for culinary destination for anybody visiting this part of England. Owner, Kamal Gandhi, 70-years-old. Now has a huge number of customers. Some of whom have apparently traveled from as far as France, America and even Australia. So how did this local chip shop go from a small fry to a huge gastronomic location of choice? Well, the first mention of Binley Mega Chippy hit the internet in just 2009, and it was a simple kind of nod to here's where we are and what we do. Fast forward to 2022, Binley Mega Chippy began to appear, but still continued on relative obscurity, not knowing what's to come. Viral hysteria hit the fast-food outlet. In 2022 when it featured in the slideshow of multiple UK, fast food joints and TikTok in April. It's first month, there were 82,000 views and 11,000 likes. Fast forward now, millions and millions of people are using this as a backdrop to other memes and are joining in with the chant of the song. Decades of research and millions of dollars and pounds of advertising who have shown that society loves a good jingle, and it helps sell a product. And the same appears to be true for fast food outlets. On the 25th of May, binleymegachippyfan53 posted just a ten second clip with a static picture with a Bingley Mega Chippy Jingle. Now for obvious marketing reasons, I’m not able to play that for you now. I'm sure you can find it if you choose to. That short clip now has just over 2 million views and has spawned various spinoffs and remixes.
And now hashtag Bingley Mega Chippy has over 500 million views and naturally people have been visiting it from all over. So having fun, better jingle, the power of the internet can change the lives of anyone and good luck to Kamal Gandhi and his store, we wish him all the success. The leadership hack here is, marketing could be as simple as a ten second clip. It could be something that you say and do. What makes a difference is that emotional connection. So, the next time you're communicating a message or you're building a story or you're creating an internal marketing campaign or external, is it going to hit those real emotional keys to get people stirred into emotional action? That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Let's dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Dr. Bob Nelson is a special guest on today's show. He's a multimillion best seller author of, 1001 Ways to Engage Employees. His latest book, Work Made Fun Gets Done. He's also the president of Nelson Motivation Inc. One of the world's leading authorities on employee recognition and engagement, and Bob's published over 31 books and sold over 5 million copies and been translated in over 30 languages. Dr. Bob, welcome to the show.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Thank you for having me, Steve.
Steve Rush: I'm really looking forward to getting into this because I remember the first time you and I met when you also then started to think about this. Over 15,000 ways to reward employees and over 1,001 ways to engage employees. It was a bit of a kind of a journey for me to get my head around those numbers. So, I'm delighted that we get a chance to dive into some of them, not all of them today.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Excellent.
Steve Rush: Before we do that, Bob, let's give our listeners a little bit of a backstory if you like on the journey that is taking you to where you are today.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Well, well, well, I've always been a writer and going back to high school, I remember my English teacher passing out papers and she stopped at my desk and she over hitch, she weighed my paper and said, best paper in five classes. And I was kind of embarrassed and surprised and went back and reread it. And, you know, and I just got the message that I could write. And so that's always been a backdrop for me, and I published my first book when I was 21, a guide on job hunting and have just recently finished my 31st book. So, it's a hard activity, somehow, I keep coming back to it, I guess, like a moth to a flame [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah, and do you think that moment in that English class, when that teacher kind of gave you that feedback at that time, do you think that was a catalyst for you at that point?
Dr. Bob Nelson: Well, it's certainly, anytime someone gives you feedback, I think, we all need to see how other people see us and if it's in a positive light then that's good news. You need to hold onto that one. And I think, you know, John Lynn’s said, life's what happens when you're making other plans. So, you got to work into the plans, what people tell you you're good at. And then of course, things that you enjoy doing is important as well.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Mark Twain said the two most important days in anyone's life is the day they're born and then secondly, the day they find out why, so [laugh].
Steve Rush: That's great, yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: It's ongoing journey for each of us to say, what was I meant to be here for? And if you get clues from those around you, who give you feedback, you need to hold onto those and listen to those. And so, I feel fortunate for the career I've had, I've been blessed with having worked with some true experts, each which I've learned from. Ken Blanchard, went to work for, he published the One Minute Manager, which has sold 14 million copies. And so, I learned a lot from him about selling books and I got my PhD from working with Peter Drucker, the father of modern management.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And I'm currently a personal coach for Marshall Goldsmith. Who's the number one voted executive coach in the world.
Steve Rush: That's right, yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So, I've been very, very blessed to have some great people to learn from and lean on. And I like passing it on to others when I can.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and we are going to pass that on for sure today. You know, I heard something that I probably read it. You'd coached or had worked with something like 80% of the fortune 500 companies, is that right?
Dr. Bob Nelson: I have, yes.
Steve Rush: Wow.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Spanning 25 years, you get around. And that included, not that long ago, wrapped up a six-month project working for the United Nations. So that was a fun, fun activity. So, you know, life takes you a lot of interesting places and if you can go for the ride, it's usually pretty enticing.
Steve Rush: Yeah, it is. Isn't it?
Dr. Bob Nelson: I found anyway [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah, definitely so. So, you've managed to find a real niche or a passion, if you like for employee recognition and engagement. What was that defining moment for you when you realized actually, this is the thing that really excites you and makes you tick, and others tick as well?
Dr. Bob Nelson: Well, again to me, it's piecing together the pieces. I was taking a graduate school class and we were talking about; it was a control systems class and professor was talking about the informal control systems. And he made the offhand comment that has proven as the principle for informal reinforcement is, there hasn't been a lot of application in the business world. And I remember thinking I'm going to do something about that [laugh] and actually that evening after my hour and a half drive home from graduate school class in Los Angeles, I typed out a letter to president of publishing firm in New York City and sent it overnight and spent two weeks trying to get him on the phone. And finally, could heard his assistant say, this guy keeps calling, would you talk to him? [laugh] and literally the president of the company, he goes, what do you want? He answers the phone like that. And I said, well, my here's my name. And I sent you a letter about a book and he cut me off. And he said, you sent us a letter about a book. We'll, we'll never do a book based on a letter you sent us, you have to do a proposal, of the 70,000 books that are published this year, that year anyway. Why yours has to be one of them? And why we're the only publisher could possibly do it right. And literally as he's hanging up, he goes, and by the way, we get 10,000 proposals a year, we publish 24 books to click [laugh].
Steve Rush: Nice.
Dr. Bob Nelson: I could have said, well, well, you know, gave it a try, but I said, hey, game on, time to do a proposal [laugh], so maybe there's a lesson there, you know, don't accept defeat.
Steve Rush: Did you go back to this guy though?
Dr. Bob Nelson: I did actually [laugh]. I did the proposal, I got an agent and then next time I met with him, I was sitting across from him though. I flew to New York at my own expense, and he had the proposal in front of him and he opened it up. And my agent had said, well, it'd be helpful if you could lay out a few pages, see what it was actually looks like. I explained it. That should be good enough. No, no, no. It would help people visualize it. So, I did that, and then she said, well, could you do a few more. I go, oh, come on. And I did a few more. And darn, when I'm sitting across him and he doesn't open the proposal to those pages and he goes, this could work. The guy was very visual.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Up here working, was his name. He was a creative genius. And, he only did books that where he personally saw that it could work. Does he see it? Does he see what you see? And so, now he's still on project. He still doesn't know about me.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And so [laugh], he turns his attention to me and starts asking me questions. I go, well, I'm an administrator for this company in San Diego. And, but that's not what I really want to do. And he goes, what do you really want to do? And I said, be a bestselling author. And I could see a little twinkle in his eye and done deal. And that was [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yeah, they sent me to 27 markets at a time when that wasn't really done anymore. And in the first, gosh, I think of, in the first two months, the book sold 40,000 copies.
Steve Rush: Wow, yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yeah, which is stunning. And as a business book and now it's in its 64th printing and sold over 2 million copies.
Steve Rush: That's amazing.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So yeah, a lot of people ask me about the book story, because there's a lot of books out there. Over a million books are published year now. When this book came out, seventy thousand. Now it's a million books a year.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Publish each year, and that's with self-publishing and Amazon and you name it. And there's not more readers, but there's a lot more books.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So.
Steve Rush: And there's still an opportunity for the same folk to, you know, face into the resilience you did, get in front of people and say, look, you know, if you've got a compelling story, just tell it because there will be people who want to read and listen.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yes, yes. It's, definitely more difficult because it's more constrained and for a typical publisher, the first thing they want to know is, what's your platform? What vehicle do you have to reach people, you know, in terms of number of followers?
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Or do you speak, do you do public speaking or are you in media, you know, are you on TV every night? You know, all that kind of goes in the mix.
Steve Rush: Does.
Dr. Bob Nelson: As a result, just a few books get published.
Steve Rush: I remember when I published my book, which was probably about six years ago, having the same conversation with an agent. And at the time I was starting out on my entrepreneurial career, a few years into it and having this kind of light bulb moment that felt I'm not worthy because I haven't got a million followers on Instagram and I haven't got all of this, but you know, what I had was something that was interesting, yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Imposter syndrome.
Steve Rush: Oh, totally.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yeah, you got to trust your gut. I think, my moment of doubt was, I knew I could write, but then, trying to understand my motivations for writing. That cost me a couple years because I couldn't, hard time starting, why do you want to do this? Is it to make money? Is it for fame? Is it to help people? And that really had me in a bind trying to sort that [laugh], and finally I decided it's for all those reasons.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yes, I want to help people, but yes, if I make money from it, I could help more people because I could, you know, get the book a wider audience and so I've never quite looked back from that point. I've have done, like I said, I've done 31 books and each one is, writing is difficult. It's very hard. It's exposing your mental thoughts to the world. And man, you better be braced to [laugh] take the feedback and [laugh]. And so, but I've had good success and I love helping other people with the same journey, because there are a lot of good messages to go out there and lot of messages that could help others. And if you have one like that you deserve to be in print.
Steve Rush: Very much so, yeah. And then your last book, Work Made Fun Gets Done. It's one of those titles that when you read it, you go, yeah, that's absolutely true, of course it is.
Dr. Bob Nelson: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: And everybody buys into it. Yet, we also find that that doesn't happen everywhere [laugh] and that some people go to work and it's not fun.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Well, some. Most people actually.
Steve Rush: What did you find out in your research?
Dr. Bob Nelson: So, my books, I tend to favor kind of proven truths or maybe obvious truths that are not obvious in practice. And so, the Work Made Fun Gets Done is one of those, it's part of the mix on having motivated employees and staying with the job over time. And the younger employees, 59% of millennials say they want to have fun at work. So as more and more workers are from that age group, almost 75% now, you know, it's a topic you've got to take seriously as a company. What are we doing to make sure that people are having fun while at work? Now, if you're a cynical or old-line manager, the answer is simple, hey, here's an idea. They can worry about that on the weekend. We're paying them to work, God damn it, you know, and so,
Steve Rush: Yeah, there's still a lot of those around, unfortunately.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yes, there are. So, you got to say, well, I could see where you would think that, and that makes a lot of sense, but let me tell you, have you looked at your exit interviews? Why people are leaving? You know, on the positive side, for this book. We did research. We looked at the hundred best places to work in America. And we dug in their data. We found that that one of the variables they ask about is, this a fun place to work. And for those companies that work for one of the hundred best companies to work for in America, 82% of their employees, when surveys said, where they work is a fun work environment. And we contrast that to those companies that applied for that award but didn't receive it. Only 61% said it was a fun place to work.
That that 20-point differential was actually one of the largest in their database [laugh] on sorting successful companies from also ran. So, if you want to look at the positive data that supports making fun, a serious part of your business, it's there. And that's why, you know a lot of companies have even made it a core value of their firm, like Best Buy, it's their number one core value is have fun while being the best or Jet Blue, number four, LinkedIn, number six, Mercedes-Benz number three. So, it's workday number five. So, not everybody, but a lot of companies are staking it out saying, yes, yes, we agree. This should be a core value for what we do every day. And if we do that, if we do that well, then guess what? People will pass it on to their customer and to the colleagues. And it'll be easier to come to work, because you're enjoying who you're working with and who you're serving and just everything will go more swimmingly, you know.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So, it's a simple, it's a simple thing, but common sense, not common practice, an observation first made by Voltaire in 1640.
Steve Rush: [Laugh].
Dr. Bob Nelson: Those things that are common sense are not very common he said [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And hey.
Steve Rush: Wise words.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Still true, still true today.
Steve Rush: And there's also direct correlation to revenue here as well, isn't there. So, the companies you just mentioned are all profitable or high revenue generative businesses.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yes, yes, yes, they are. And so, it’s a flip side of you know, if work is fun, it's going to be more profitable. If it's more profitable, then of course it's more fun and we're able to pay people better and have better benefits. And so, it's kind of a chicken and egg type thing. I know what comes first. We think that, just make sure it's part of the mix. It doesn't have to start with that. And increasingly we share stories in the book about how people found their way to this. Like the President of Belmont College in Nashville, Tennessee, he did a year sabbatical where he examined high performing companies and he came back and he said number one thing he learned is that every place he examined, high performance companies, they were all fun places. And so, he said, we got to have more fun here. And he immediately created a fun committee and volunteers and charged them with, to do fun things, you know, find out what needs to be celebrated and work it into our culture. Had a group and focused on that. Maybe gave him some budget, and when there was a time, the morale is low, or we have good news to celebrate. Let's do that very well. Let's do it as a group. Let's do it as a team. Let's do it individually. And that's what they do, or I'll tell you another company. I was in Seattle years ago, I was presenting to 800 people and this person in the front row, go, you look really familiar.
And she goes, yeah, yeah. I met you six weeks ago when you were speaking here before, back in Seattle again, after six weeks. And I had to come tell you what happened. I go, well, tell me what happened [laugh]. And she worked for a company. She said, I left your presentation with one thing in mind. I said, this is real. It's happening. I'm going to do it. I'm not asking permission. I'm doing it [laugh] because I believe in it. And that's what she did. I said, well, what'd you do? She goes, I did a bunch of stuff. Like I created a happiness committee in my department, and it had three members of it. No one knew who they were, but anyone could say, it's time to do something. I go, well, something like what? She goes, well, we held a picnic up on the roof in downtown Seattle to celebrate. We bartered meeting space with a company on the next block. That was a limo company, so now we have limo rides we can give people for letting them in our meeting space once a month and you know, on and on. They are just you know, didn't start with a big budget, started with some creativity and some fun. And what difference did make? And she goes, it had a stunning difference [laugh]. People could see it, it changed how they came to work. And she said, I had other managers saying, what are you doing in your department? Your people are so excited. You're on fire. You go, hey, come to the next meeting. We're don’t having any secrets here. And it just grew organically. And you know, and now she's giving me part of the story. So, I went back, and I wrote it up and I put it in the press and navigated external validation for what she's doing internally. Well, fast forward 18 months from that first day I met that woman, that company, Perkins Coie, a law firm of all things, entered the best places to work in America. Number 23 on the list.
Steve Rush: Amazing.
Dr. Bob Nelson: I would content from one person, one person standing up, not at the top. Sometimes we feel only the CEO can make a difference, you know, but in the middle, she was a finance manager in one department. And I would suggest that she personally converted that culture and made it more recognition savvy, where people felt more valued for the work, they were doing every day. Anyone listening can make that same thing happen, where you work.
Steve Rush: Great story.
Dr. Bob Nelson: You could light the fuse. It doesn't have to all be on you, but you can get it going, get going in your walk, in your realm of influence, whatever position you have and invite other people on board. And you can make something happen.
Steve Rush: It's because fun is infectious. So too is misery by the way.
Dr. Bob Nelson: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: And I suspect, you know, that's why, you know, you get that dichotomy between different firms, different teams and in different organizations. But if you were given some advice to our listeners today who may be thinking around, yeah, I want to take some of this fun and energy and ideas forward, but I know that I'm going to bump into maybe a stuffy boss or a stuffy culture. How would you think that would be the best way to maybe break into that?
Dr. Bob Nelson: One of two approaches, either ignore that and make it happen anyway, for the people that are interested. So even if the boss isn't interested, get it going with others, or the second thing is make a personal appeal to your boss and say, this is why I like to do it, or why we should do it and try to sell them on being on board or let's try it. Let's try it for a month. Let's try it for three months. Let's do a pilot program, because I think, you know, I think for example, that if we did this, it would impact our turnover rate, which it will by the way [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: If you create a culture of recognition where people are valued for what they're doing. Research indicates you will be seven times more likely to hold onto your people if they feel they're in an environment where people are celebrated and thanked for doing a good job, as simple as that. Seven times, seven times for their career by the way, not just for another, for another six months or another year that they will once they feel that they will want to stay working for your company for their career.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So that's the price of admission right there, right now.
Steve Rush: Right, yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: In the midst of the great resignation, where at least in America, four and a half million people a month are leaving their positions. This has been for the last 18 months straight. Four and a half million a month are leaving their positions. And often they find another position and now they're leaving that one [laugh].
Steve Rush: I know.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So, because they're in search of a place that you know, the pandemic taught us anything. It's like, you know, life is short and unpredictable. You better have a good job now, better enjoy what you're doing now. And so maybe what a lot them realize that what they're doing, it's not worth what they're being paid for, and they're not getting enjoy from it. And they, they hate their job. They hate their boss and time to [laugh] go, to seek out something that's more meaningful to them that gives them, makes them feel they're part of something larger themselves, where they can have pride in working there and enjoy the people they're working with and who they're serving.
Those jobs are out there, and they are they're plentiful. And so, if you hold your sites to that type of standard, you will find it. Of course, you have to have the skillset. So, it's a mix, clarity of purpose and mission. But I know people, for example, I worked with Walt Disney World for 15 years, and I met people that moved to Orlando Florida, because they had to work with this company, had to work for this company and they got there, and they didn't care what the job was. They had to be a part of this organization. They'll pick up trash in the.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: In the park, you know?
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And maybe they started there, but they quickly moved on up and man, oh man, because people are treated right. And then they blossom and then you get more of them and their best thinking. And then all of a sudden you got a career. So, it could be frustrating for people that feel that they're in a dead-end position or a position they don't enjoy. How do I get to a different area from where I'm at? But you know, maybe that starts in the current job you have.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Maybe look at that differently. Because a lot of times you can get to the job you want, start with the one you have and start to ask for responsibilities or make it known what things you're interested in doing. And that might be a selection for responsibilities and assignments, especially for a small company. They need people to wear many hats, you know. And so, there's more of flexibility and variety that you can help morph your job towards what you want to be doing.
Steve Rush: Yeah, you mentioned reward and recognition as being a key component of that fun and you cited that, that law firm's growth was one of the reasons that they focused on was kind of how they step into recognition. And when you think of the subject and the notion of recognition, most organizations typically have a recognition program, which could have, you know, e-cards and buttons and gifts and.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yes, years of service awards.
Steve Rush: But it's way more than that, right? Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yeah, but often, they're doing stuff, but it's not the stuff that matters to people.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So, I've never met an employee that, you know, stayed another day at work to get their 10-year pin, you know, it's sort of like [laugh]. So, along the way, the topic was started in an incentive industry with people trying to move merchandise. And this is another way if we can get, you know, people to buy you know gifts for employees and we'll sell a lot more merchandise and that's kind of how the market started and for many companies, that's where it ended too. So, it never really got to the motivations. It got to, hey, you get stuff, you know, and it becomes really a money substitute to get points or gift cards to be thanked for a job well done. So that's fine, but that's a limited view on this topic because I tend to find that the most powerful motivators are things that don't cost money at all.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So, a personal, thank you, or being part of a team or being asked your opinion, being allowed to pursue an idea you have, being thanked, certainly when you do, do a good job or for helping someone else. And if you make a mistake, you know, it's easy to criticize someone that makes a mistake. You know, they already usually know they did something wrong. Why don't you embrace it and say, hey, what'd you learn from that? That's the more important thing here [laugh]. And take the long-term view of the relationship instead of being critical in the short term, be supportive in the long term, you know, Bill Gates, former chairman of Microsoft, he once said, you could tell a lot about the long-term viability of any organization simply by looking at how they handle mistakes.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Because if you embarrass people [laugh], and in front of their peers and make them want to quit, they probably will [laugh]. And, yet it's opportunity to take a long-term view into, and to say, we're bigger than that. And that's good news. You made that mistake because that's the best training you'll have all year. I'm glad you made it.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And see what else other people can learn from it. So fundamental difference in a simple choice that comes up daily, really.
Steve Rush: Culture plays a massive part in this. And I think what I heard you talk about directly and indirectly was, those organizations who have fun embedded into their values, embedded into their culture, their employer brand have a better chance at not only acquisition, but also retention.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yes, and they got to the, you know, they didn't start with that. Maybe they put it on the table.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Bob Nelson: As the core value, but it's working the value to say, what does that look like in practice? And if we were having more fun, how would things be different? And maybe they'd say, well, maybe upper management would be more involved. I worked with in California, the pension fund. Teachers’ Pension Fund of California, which is a nine billion.
Steve Rush: That’s huge.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Billion-dollar fund. Yeah, and they brought me in, consultant and sure enough, they had very little recognition. And when I brought the topic up, they go, no, we can't do that stuff because, you know, we're a public entity. I go, really, that's what's holding you back from doing the right thing. Yes, yes, it is. We got to think about something we might do might end up in the headlines of the newspaper and that will not be appropriate, our fiduciary responsibilities. I go, well, I'll just hold on a minute [laugh]. What if I brought you a list of other federal state and local governments that are doing this type of stuff, what exactly they're doing? The legislative authority, they have to do it [laugh] and the contact information. And they go, that would be very interesting. And I [laugh] created that you know, it was like a 20-page list, and they took it into a board meeting. They came out and they said, we're doing it.
Steve Rush: Good.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And they started investing in low-cost ways to thank people. In fact, one of the first things they did out of the shoot. This is a state government, okay. They decided to make a music video that they had their senior managers all sign up to be in a music video to talk about the changes they're making in the direction of the firm. It was an enormous hit [laugh], you know, because people saw that their leadership was coming, you know, was now part of them and helping lead the charge. And it was very exciting, and it was very fun.
Steve Rush: It is often a mindset shift for some of the senior executives in these firms and organizations, isn't it?
Dr. Bob Nelson: It has to be, it has to be. Yeah, so it's okay if you're not comfortable with something, but, if you have the logic, if you have the data, especially if you have the data from your own employees where you know why they're leaving, or what would make them stay, you know, right now, one of the big things is on flexible working hours and ability to work from home. God, we've got enormous data on this, 36% of employees said they would skip a pay increase if they'd have the ongoing flexibility to work from home, 40% said, you can give them a pay cut if they.
Steve Rush: Yeah
Dr. Bob Nelson: [Laugh], you know, if you give them the flexibility and the time they work from home, because that's more enjoyable to them, it's more convenient for their life that not even counting the, you know, the commute time, you know, the hour or two hours or three hours that they have to waste a day to get to a central office and to get ready for that. And you know, besides saving that time, they've got more control over their life, and you know, and you want the data. It's like overwhelmingly people are allowed to work from home are more productive.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And I've tracked this with my own employees. I had people log their time. It turned out to be twice as productive, you know, like I could see the work of the results they got, because they weren't interrupted. There wasn't as socializing. They were able to dig in further and get more done. And so, it all makes sense. What holds a lot of companies back is, senior manager saying, well, that's not what I'm used to, you know, or if I can't see them, I don't know they're working or the CEO of JP Morgan in New York City finance firm said, if you can go out to dinner in New York City, you can come to the office and work in New York city.
So, okay. Well, that's a point. Narrow minded point, but you know, I guess if you pay people enough, you can force them to do anything. And so, but over four and a half million people moved out in New York City during the pandemic, because when we shifted to allowing people to work from home, if all of a sudden, they didn't have to be in New York City anymore. So they went to work in a smaller town or where their family's from. And a lot of Zoom towns popped up, you know, where people preferred to live. If they can live anywhere, they're going to go live in Bend Oregon. They're going to live in you know.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: In places that they can enjoy living more. They can work from anywhere. And, people are holding onto that, 65% of employees that had a chance to work from home during the pandemic said, they want to continue that flexibility. It worked better for them. It was more productive. And, if they're forced to come in, which is kind of the dance we're in right now, where companies are saying, no, you have to come back to the office. Fortunately, only 4% of companies have said everyone has to come back five days a week, but you know, half the people say you have to come back, you know, at least three days a week. And the other half have more flexibility. So, my wife's a virtual employee. She has to come in one day a week, you know, and that's that kind of borderline for her, you know, [laugh], she does it begrudgingly the whole time.
She's kind of swearing on the commute, but yeah, one day a week is, you know, and that'll work. If they increase that, she will definitely quit. I was surprised that she stayed just for that because you could get another virtual job, you know, and we already proved it works.
Steve Rush: Right, yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: [Laugh] so it's like, we don't need to keep proving it works. We know it works and well, we can make excuses while you can't be as collaborative. Well, maybe make some adjustments to be more collaborative, you know. So, Anyway, we're still on the journey on that one. And again, you know, fun would be part of that, recognition would be part of that. And, you know, or what I find is like, I say, well, we're on Zoom calls now, how can you, you know, we can't do recognition. Oh, yes, you can, you know, come on, you know, next Zoom call you have, before we get in our agenda, I like to just take a few minutes and go around the group. And as I call out someone's name, I like everyone else to say what they most value about working with that person. Let's start with John, okay. Now, Mary, now Sally, and 10 minutes later, where are you? Everyone's gotten personal feedback about what the people they work with most closely think most highly of what they do and their work, they contribute. Well, that's pretty powerful. Make people feel great about the job they're doing. I guarantee you that whatever they're called out for, they're going to do more of that same thing, because what gets recognized gets repeated.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: So, it's a universal rule. And then, you know, the groups could be tighter working unit because they now have insights into each other, and they know so it's going to be more of a team going forward. So, you could do that in, you know, 10 minutes in the Zoom call.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: You know, I call that a praise barrage. You just take time and we're just going to focus on praise. No negative feedback, just praise, just thanks and praise from open mic from employees to other boys.
Steve Rush: Love it.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Very powerful. Very simple.
Steve Rush: Very much so. So, we're going to turn the tables a little bit now. We're going to start to hack into your mind. Now of the 31 books and the 1001 Ways to Engage Employees. We're going to try and dis distill all of that down now into the top three leadership hacks that you can share. What would they be Bob?
Dr. Bob Nelson: There you go. Okay, well, here it goes. I'd say all motivation starts with the person. So, ask them what motivates them. Don't try to guess. Just ask them, ask them individually, or as a group, would be the first thing some, again, advice I'm going to give you is going to be very simple, because this is what I swim in. So, ask the questions, take the answers seriously, do the top one or two things that they mention. So today that might be you know, and managers often are scared to do this because they say, well, when people are going to say they want more money, well maybe they will. And you know, is that valid? Then maybe they should be paid more. I don't know. But more times than not, I find that the things that come up are, do not involve money, but being thanked by someone, they hold in high esteem by their manager or upper manager.
As I indicated. Being involved in a decision, especially one that affects them, 89% of employees say, they'd like to have that. 92% say they'd like to be asked for their ideas and suggestions. And if they have a good idea, given autonomy and authority to pursue it. So again, from my research and application of these concepts, most of the things that come surprisingly amazingly delightfully don't cost money to implement, just a little bit, you know behavior. So, a little bit of insight, a little bit of thoughtfulness.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Bob Nelson: And then actually doing it. So, it's not good enough to know you should do it. You got to actually do it in your practices, in your daily regimen as a leader. So, ask, prioritize and do. That'd be the three I would say.
Steve Rush: And it sounds so simple that we get caught up in our busy worlds. And it's just one of those things that we don't pay attention enough to. So, I love that, great stuff.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yes.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Next part of the show we call it Hack to Attack. So, this is typically where something in your life or work has not worked out as you'd planned, might have been quite catastrophic at the time, but as a result you've learned from it and it now serves you well, what would be your Hack to Attack?
Dr. Bob Nelson: Well, I'd say, not just me. For a lot of people doing a switching gears and tact, and what you're doing when somebody's not working. So, the pandemic change work for a lot of people. I was making my living probably 9% of my revenue was from physically speaking at conferences and traveling to work with companies and that kind of all stopped overnight actually [laugh] and so.
Steve Rush: Right.
Dr. Bob Nelson: They go well, okay. So, I pivoted to do, you know, other things and to do things that were not in person. So, a lot of that's virtual. I've done a lot of webinars and I've been doing more consulting. So, you know, I think pivoting would be my recommendation when something's not working, try something else. And if that works a little better, then do more of that. And actually, my personal [laugh], strategy over the last 30 years has been, if I've got three or four or four or five strategies in play, then, you know, two or three are going to pay out and that has happened in my career. So that, I think [laugh], I think that canon could work for anyone. That whatever you're doing right now, isn't working for whatever reason, you could fight that and fight that, or you can change and modify and pivot and try something different, maybe build off of what you're doing, do something different. And, then you try different things. One probably going to work better than another. So, there you get your own feedback, right there will take out in that direction.
Steve Rush: Yeah, paying attention to oneself is really important. That you're often the barometer of those decisions, but we.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Sometimes get a bit stubborn when it comes to ourselves.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yeah, and it's easy to say, well, this should work. It worked before. Well, okay. Times changed somehow. And for whatever reason, it's not working now. So, you could sit in that in state for a long time and you can begrudge why the world has changed, or you can.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: You can change with it. I'm far more taking positive action to make your life better.
Steve Rush: So, the last part of the show, Bob, we get to give you a chance now to do a bit of time travel. You get to bump into Bob who wasn't the doctor at the time at 21 and give him some advice, what would it be?
Dr. Bob Nelson: I would say double down more on my instincts. So I, which I think is good advice all the time, to trust one's instincts, but you know, a lot of times we don't because we feel well, we don't know much about this topic, or, you know, and so we override our instincts, even though our gut tells you this doesn't seem like a good person to work with, or this doesn't seem like, you know, we stick with it. And I would trust my instincts more.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: You know, because when I've had those, they've been good and I would have gotten even better results had I'd done more of that.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: There you go.
Steve Rush: Awesome.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Opened myself up to you there.
Steve Rush: [Laugh], thank you for that, Bob. Appreciate it. So, we're coming to the kind of top of our show now, and I think it's really important that we allow all our listeners to tap into some of the fun and energy that you bring to your work and that your career has proven to be so successful around Bob. How can we best connect our audience to you?
Dr. Bob Nelson: Well, I've got, wouln’t you know, an email and website, my email is [email protected]. That's d-r-b-o-b-n-e-l-s-o-n.com so they can email me or even call me directly, 8582185049 in San Diego, California USA would be ways. I have a website. My website's had some glitches here lately, so it it's been on and off, but it's www.drbobnelson.com. That's d-r-b-o-b-n-e-l-s-o-n.com. I've got an online store and a lot of my books are on that store at discounted prices, cheaper than Amazon or.
Steve Rush: Cool.
Dr. Bob Nelson: You know, and then of course the book is available wherever books are sold. My books, Work Made Fun Gets Done. Latest, the one before that is 1001 Ways to Engage Employees. And the one that most people know before is, 1001 Ways to Reward Employees Now in the new addition, 1501 Ways to Reward Employees.
Steve Rush: [Laugh], and as you keep collecting them, the books are going to keep growing and evolving, I'm Sure.
Dr. Bob Nelson: I guess, yeah, I guess.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Dr. Bob Nelson: It's an ongoing story [laugh].
Steve Rush: You're probably the only guest we've ever had on an international show, like ours to give away their phone number. So fantastic, and homage to you for that!
Dr. Bob Nelson: Yeah, no, I love hearing from people. I love helping people. And of course, if you have an opportunity that you'd looking for a speaker for your organization or for an event or for your association, I still do a lot of that and would love to help you out.
Steve Rush: Awesome, bob. We'll make sure those links and information’s all in our show notes as well. So, people can demonstrate over to your website and have a look at some more of the stuff that you do. From my perspective. I just want to say, thank you. It's been super fun. You've been really insightful, some great stories, and I'm just delighted that we are connected through this medium and welcome to our broader community, The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Dr. Bob Nelson: Thanks so much for having me. Steve, it's been a pleasure.
Steve Rush: Thanks Bob.
Closing
Steve Rush: I want to sign off by saying thank you to you for joining us on the show too. We recognize without you, there is no show. So please continue to share, subscribe, and like, and continue to get in touch with us with the great new stories that we share every week. And so that we can continue to bring you great stories. Please make sure you give us a five-star review where you can and share this podcast with your friends, your teams, and communities. You want to find us on social media. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter @leadershiphacker, Leadership Hacker on YouTube and on Instagram, the_leadership_hacker and if that wasn’t enough, you can also find us on our website leadership-hacker.com. Tune into next episode to find out what great hacks and stories are coming your way. That's me signing off. I'm Steve Rush, and I've been your Leadership Hacker.
Simon Alexander Ong is an award-winning life and executive coach, keynote speaker, an author of the book Energize. This show is packed full of leadership hacks, tools and ideas that will get you energized, including:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Simon below:
Simon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonalexanderong/
Simon’s Book: https://getenergizebook.com
Simon on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SimonAlexanderO
Simon on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simonalexandero/
Simon’s Website: https://www.simonalexanderong.com
Full Transcript Below
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Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband or friend. Others might call me boss, coach or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as the leadership hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
I'm delighted to welcome to our show today. Simon Alexander Ong. He's an award-winning life and executive coach, keynote speaker, an author of the book Energize. But before we get a chance to speak with Simon, it's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: What would you do with an extra two hours a week? Just two. Now, imagine if you could even create more free time, here's an equation I want you to think about. Structure plus discipline, equals freedom. Do you believe that to be true? The reality is, by giving us disciplines within a structure creates capacity for us to do other things. But if we get caught up in the moment, here's a few tech hacks will help us unlock capacity.
Set up email filters. in a perfect world we'd only have emails hit our inbox for those that we really needed. The reality is, our inbox gets inundated with emails, not only internally, but from marketeers and those who choose to spam us. Given the fact we don't already have enough, right? You can set up rules that help you filter emails. There's software out there as well. But your firm will probably just let you use the one that you are used to use. But most email service providers let you automatically create labels, filters, and folders. And rule of mine, when I’m on vacation, CC into the delete box. And only if it's resent as a main message, I'd read it.
Asynchronous and automatic meetings. Now asynchronous meetings means that you don't have meetings per se, but you use other mediums to communicate through Teams or Zoom or slack or whatever it is you use. Collectively the stuff still gets done, but in a more flexible way, other ways of course is using automation. And according to a recent survey by Dialpad, 83% of professionals spend between at least four to twelve hours in back-to-back meetings.
And in my experience, I'd love it to be so few. To help you. You can use automated meeting calendars and you can ask your teams to work with that calendaring system. Also just create space and blocks so that others don't take advantage of your open calendar system. For those of you, a little late adopter to computers, talk to type functions, you might want to take a look. Speech recognition software can really speed up how you take notes, prepare meetings, and you can even use your computers, talk to type function, to dictate emails or other documents, or even play emails back to you invoice while you are walking the dog, or you are in between meetings. And while voice recognition software has come a long way. It's not perfect. So, you'll need to make sure that you use it in the right way and double check it, particularly if you're going to publish to anywhere.
And in the hybrid world, we're in, this is not necessarily a tech hack, but a hack it is nonetheless. Let somebody else do the cooking. If you're working from home, weekday meals could take up a lot of time, including the planning, shopping, preparing, cooking. And if you find yourself running late or nipping to the store, by the time you've got your produce back and you cut your vegetables, you might already have wasted another hour. You can use lots of pre-cooked meals or boxed meals to help you become more efficient in the way that you work and the way that you prepare your dinners. Our greatest commodity is time. And once we spend our time, we can't get it back. As of today, 48% of people say that they don't have enough time to do what they want. So, take control of some of the technology and some of the innovation that is around us and give it a try.
Remember, there's a bit of learning here, so you'll have to spend some time figuring out what works and what doesn't work for you. For that reason, look for apps and look for other technologies that support you in your approach to being awesome. So, get out there and have a go. That's been The Leadership Hacker in News. Don't forget you can always share your ideas and things that you want us to talk about in the show, by contacting us through our social media.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Simon Alexander Ong is our special guest on today's show. He's a personal growth entrepreneur, coach, and speaker. He's also the author of the book Energize. Simon, welcome to the show, my friend!
Simon Alexander Ong: Steve, thank you so much for having me on.
Steve Rush: I'm really looking forward to today. And the whole subject of energize is probably the most timely for everybody. All of that will become much more apparent as we dive into the themes. The tagline of the book though, Simon is, Make the most out of every moment. And that's exactly what I intend to do with you. So, let's jump straight in and learn a little bit about Simon and your backstory and how you arrived doing what you're doing?
Simon Alexander Ong: Sure. So, I was born here in the United Kingdom, Steve to Malaysian parents. And I grew up with this mistaken and belief that success was determined by my job title, be a banker, be a doctor, be a lawyer, be an accountant. And so, my definition was limited to a few choices that I believe would make me successful.
Steve Rush: And it's interesting, isn’t it? Those labels kind of set you off on a trajectory, didn't they? So, you ended up in a career in banking and then before you knew it, you were doing something else, right?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. I mean, I ended up going down the bank route at what was probably the worst possible time, Steve, because this was in the middle of 2007, I had just graduated, and this was also year before the financial crisis. And the first company I started was with Lehman Brothers. And so as, you know, that company collapsed into administration in September, 2008, and now while it was painful at the time, I mean, for anybody who's gone through a redundancy, it is never a nice experience, but at the same time, in hindsight, it was a blessing in disguise because it kick started for me the journey to where I am today, because it got me to question those beliefs that I had held for so long about whether they were really true and whether that was serving me or actually hurting me. And so that was where my interest in the word of entrepreneurship started. And, then it wasn't until 2012 that I really started to focus my energy on what I now get to do today, which is to coach those in leadership positions to speak at conferences and companies. And more recently having finished writing my first book,
Steve Rush: Those sliding door moments, isn't it? Where, you know, in the face of adversity, you leave a job that you'd been primed to do all of your life to then find actually it was the sliding door that opened another path.
Simon Alexander Ong: Mm-Hmm, mm-hmm. And it's interesting because when I think about that sliding door and I guess many other sliding doors as well, it's that what I've come to understand is that those moments in which we feel at the time are setbacks or failures are actually the very moments that equip us with the wisdom to create the best moments of our life, to step into a path that were completely transform what had come before.
Steve Rush: And how much of your growing up with that kind of real strong influence of your folks to say, right. You have to get yourself an academic career and get yourself into a role. How much of that you now still rely on, but in a different way?
Simon Alexander Ong: I think I rely a lot less now, obviously because I am not following those definitions now, but I think taking the, I guess the human values from my parents, from my dad's side, I think it has definitely been the hard work element. My dad has always been very committed to what he does. And I think I've taken a lot of that on board. When I do something, I want to see it through to the end. I want to make sure I've given it my best shot. For my mom's side. It has been the empathy, my mom, when you know, before she gave birth to myself and my brother, she was a nurse, and she was very understanding about what other people were going through. And she was able to connect with others in a very powerful way. And so, I think I've taken some of that on board in the work that I do, because coaching, speaking, they are very much a people business. And so, when you engage with someone, it is very important to have that level of emotional intelligence to be able to relate to other people. So, I think those are the values and those are the characteristics that I feel I've taken from my family.
Steve Rush: Yeah, awesome. So, then fast forward, you've now just published, Energized, and I have to say, it's a fantastic read. And most importantly, it's getting loads of coverage and you must be really pleased with it, how it's been launched. In fact, I go, as far as say, every time I turn on my social media, there's you and [laugh] and so, you and your marketing team are doing a fantastic job by the way, but I marched to you for that. So, tell us a little bit about that journey.
Simon Alexander Ong: Thank you so much. So, I think whenever you start a business, there are lots of roles that you have to take on board because you become your own financial officer, you become your own marketer, your own publicist and so on. And I think when you run a business, you have a natural preference for certain activities, more than others. And for me, because I've always enjoyed speaking, I've grown up with social media, if you like when I was finishing university, I very much enjoyed the marketing side. So, for me, in getting the book out to the world, once the marketing campaign kicked in, I was very much in my element, Steve, because I was looking at ways that we can take videos of the journey. I was looking at partnerships that we could create. I mean, we partnered with The Connaught Hotel to create a signature cocktail inspired by the book. We put together a video trailer in the same way that movies do before the film is released in the cinema. And just last week we partnered with two companies to host one of the world's first book launches in the metaverse. And so, for me, that's what really gives me energy is, to explore this creative side of my brain especially when it's been around the book, which has also been a very important milestone for myself.
Steve Rush: Mm-Hmm indeed it has, yeah. So, what was that defining moment then Simon? When you thought I've got something here? I need to kind of put pen to paper.
Simon Alexander Ong: [Laugh] well, what is interesting because if I look back at the book journey, Steve, I wasn't actually planning to write a book. I mean in the middle of 2019, where I sat down and reflected on the first half of the year and started to plan for the second. Writing a book was not on my top three or even top five priorities until towards the end of that year, I got approached by a boutique publisher. And they asked if I was interested in writing a book and I thought, well, it doesn't hurt to have a conversation. And so, I went along, I had a coffee to hear what they had in mind. And I came away from that conversation thinking, well, if I was to only write one book, would I be happy with what they were sharing and working with them?
And the answer for me was, no. I mean, I had a feeling inside of me that would regret if I didn't think bigger than where I was at the moment. And so, I went away, Steve and I started to reach out to the Penguins, Simon Schuster, Harper Collins, Hay House, some of these big names in the publishing world. And out of the people I reached out to, Penguin was the only one that responded. And so, in January 2020, we met up in person. And still at that point, I didn't know what I was going to write about because I didn't even know if I was going to get a book deal and if this was going to progress. And so, after that conversation, they came back to me and said, Simon, we would like you to put a book proposal together. And I think that was the time that I started thinking about what this would be about Steve.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: And the book is called Energized. But at the time submitting the proposal, the title I put as a working title was actually originally energy is everything. And the reason I put forward that title is because it spoke a lot to my own journey, but also to the fact that when I study some of the most successful leaders in any industry, what I've often found is that they're not necessarily the smartest, the fastest or the strongest, but they are the best when it comes to managing and sustaining their level of energy, because they know that you cannot show up as your best self, if you're always feeling exhausted and drained.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and that's cuts across every genre, whether it be business, sport, you look at those that are in peak performance of anything is how they manage their energy to get that optimum performance, right?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely, definitely, because.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: You have to realize that unless you manage your energy in a sustainable way, you're going to very quickly burn out. And if you want to achieve anything of, you know, on a big scale, you are going to need a lot of energy. And so really understanding how to manage and optimize that will help you in the long term.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and energy is everything.
Simon Alexander Ong: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: And there's no question, but let's dive into some of the themes within the books and our listeners will be dying to hear about them. Now you've developed four key components as I've called them. They're probably kind of big blocky chapters with lots of really great hacks and tools and tips within them. And I thought it would be really interesting to be able to spin through them and maybe dive into a couple of those themes.
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. So, I split the book into four parts, part one, awaken your power to rewire your energetic state, three, protect your personal energy and four, supercharge your impact. And the reason I did that is because that takes the reader very much through the journey that I have been on as well as touching on important areas that I've learned over time that can really help us show up as our best selves. So, in the first part, awaken your power. This speaks a lot to the beginnings of my journey. Transitioning from a corporate world to the path of an entrepreneur and how you've got to have some baseline of energy before you can apply some of the knowledge, the strategies, the tips, and hacks that you may hear about. And for me, that always starts with our health. I mean, if there's anything that we've learned over the last couple of years, Steve, is that health really is the first wealth.
Steve Rush: Absolutely right, yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: You may have lots of dreams, hopes, and wishes, but unless you're healthy, unless you're able to put those things into action, they will just remain a distant dream. A good way to think about it is this. A healthy person will have lots of things they want to do. The sick will only have one, and that is to get healthy again. And so, once we've put in place some healthy habits, once we've prioritized our health, then we've put a powerful foundation and platform to really build upon. And so that leads into the second part, which is rewire your energetic state. Understanding that it is often the state that we're in that determines the actions, the choices, and the behaviors we take. And then the third part is protecting because once you've got to a point in which you have a lot of energy in your life, it's in a question of, well, how do I protect that? So, I don't leak it away doing things that actually drain me of energy. And I think that can be very challenging for a lot of us, especially when we are ambitious, or we have lots of things we want to do. We forget that creating boundaries to protect our time and breathe oxygen into the things that matter most, just fall by the wayside.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: And so, we have to be aware and conscious of protecting our energy that is aligned to what we want to do in the long term. And the last part really speaks to legacy. You know, I think ultimately, we all want to leave a good legacy behind. And so, the final part, supercharge your impact inspires the readers on how they can go about doing so.
Steve Rush: So, let's dive into a couple of things, because there was a few things as I read it that really pricked my conscious, the first one, ironically, was under your, awaken your power. You talk about how we can elevate our consciousness and be really in the presence and in the service of our thoughts. Tell us a little bit about what that really means and how as a leader, I might do that?
Simon Alexander Ong: Sure. So, what that speaks to is the fact that you cannot have self-development without self-awareness because you simply can't change what you're not aware of. And so, by elevating our consciousness, it's understanding that beginning of true wisdom is knowing ourselves and that begins with our thoughts. So, when I encourage readers to take up the practice of writing or journaling, what I'm really doing is getting them to better understand themselves because the activity of writing is the cheapest form of therapy. As you get to know yourself, your thoughts, your desires, your challenges, you get greater clarity and understanding on what to do next. But most of us, we keep all of that in our mind and we don’t download it onto paper that it can feel overwhelming.
Steve Rush: Yes, right.
Simon Alexander Ong: But when we can transfer that clutter from our brain onto paper, what happens is that we're able to organize our thoughts in a way that opens up the path to knowing what the next step is.
Steve Rush: And that's really quite a powerful thing to do, isn't it? And for those people who haven't yet experienced journaling, it does also take a bit of practice and a bit of discipline too. Doesn't it?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely, and I think the key with any new practice, Steve is not to pressure yourself on whether I'm doing it right or whether I'm doing it wrong because there's no right way to journal. For some of us, we may need prompts for others we may just want to write down whatever comes to our mind. I mean that's something that was encouraged by Julia Cameron as a concept of morning pages, how I just download whatever's on my mind and then I can filter food out after I put it onto paper. So, the key is, as long as you're journaling, however you're journaling. That is the most important part.
Steve Rush: So, as we spin forward, I've kind of raised myself awareness. Now my power is definitely awake. We often find ourselves bumping into what you call energetic blocks.
Simon Alexander Ong: Mm.
Steve Rush: How would you describe that to our listeners?
Simon Alexander Ong: So energetic blocks for me are things that stop you, making progress towards where you want to be and often those can be mental. To give you an example is that if you desire to achieve something, but your critic jumps in and says, you can't do that, it's too difficult. You're too old or you're too young. What's happening is that you have blocked your path of achieving what you want to do. You're setting up these obstacles, these blocks that are going to prevent you from making progress. So, once we understand the nature of how this works, of how energetic blocks will actually prevent us from making progress the way we want to be. We then have to understand how we can rewire the way our mind works. So that actually those blocks will melt away and allow us to make the steps forward to where we want to be. And very often it simply begins with speaking to ourselves in the same way we would to someone we care about. Because even when we achieve something, Steve, what happens is, the critic was still jumping.
Steve Rush: Right.
Simon Alexander Ong: You know, when you finish a marathon, despite finishing that challenge, your mind often doesn't focus on the fact you finish it. It says, well, I didn't get the time I wanted, I didn't do this. I didn't do that. And what happens is that we're always focus on what we didn't do rather than what we did.
Steve Rush: Yeah. The voice in the head is so powerful. Isn't it Simon? You know, the one that we wake up with in the morning or the last voice we hear before we go to bed and I often have shared before, you know, it's also going to be the last voice that we hear before we die. So, this voice has got to help us out. It's got to be an empowered of us rather than the limit, right?
Simon Alexander Ong: Totally. Because the person and you alluded to it just now, Steve, the person you are going to speak to the most in your lifetime is yourself. And so, words do have power. I mean, they have the ability to serve a prison sentence to your potential or free and awaken it to achieve and express its full creativity.
Steve Rush: I love that. I'm going to write that down. Prison sentence to your potential. That’s a belter. I love that, Simon. So now we've managing to get round our blocks. What we often find is that we perhaps don't pay enough attention to our energy states and indeed where we get our energy from and how we manage that. And my favorite chapter in your book is managing your energy, not your time because you know, you can't manage time. Time's going to manage us, but we've got full control over our energy, right?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. I mean, when we think about productivity, a lot of us jump exclusively to managing our time better. But the issue with is that if we only focus on managing our time better, we forget that our energy is not constant. When we only focus on managing our time, we mistakenly assume that our energy's uniform for the whole day when in fact it isn't. And so, if I'm opening up my calendar and I look at the afternoon and I go, okay, I'm going to block out four o'clock to five o'clock to go and do a workout. I'm then going to tackle this big task at six o'clock. What actually happens in reality is you never get around to doing so because on average, our energy starts to decline as we move through the afternoon. And so, what you're doing here is you're working against your energy rather than with it.
And so, once we start understanding our own energy rhythm, so for some of us, we may be early rises. Others might be night owls. Some of us might be energized in the afternoon. Some of us might get a slump in the afternoon. Once we understand those data points, what happens is that we can begin working with our energy and not against it. And so, if you are an early riser, then it makes sense to tackle your most important task first thing in the morning, if you are a night owl, then it makes sense to do some of that work at the end of the day.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: But you won't know that until you understand at a deeper level how your energy fluctuates throughout the day. And that's why a term that I used in the book; Steve is being a better CEO.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: Energy officer.
Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly. And if you look back over the millennial, this has been written about by all sorts of different religions and gurus that energy as its key source is what's going to create your capability or your productivity. And I know you quote quite a lot of different themes of energy in the book in including, you know, the Chinese Chi and that's very much kind of central to making sure that you are productive.
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. And that's why when you see somebody, and we would've all come across people like this. You will notice that those who have high energy can get more done in days or weeks than many will get accomplished in months or even years.
Steve Rush: Right.
Simon Alexander Ong: And that is because how they show up in the same hour that others show up is infinitely different.
Steve Rush: And also, I know that this isn't just about being on your game all of the time, a key part of managing your energy is recovery and managing that energy flow too. Isn't it?
Simon Alexander Ong: Indeed. I think what we're missing here, Steve is the fact that we are very quick to schedule into our diary, work meetings, social events, and holiday plans, but not so quick in scheduling in me time.
Steve Rush: That's right.
Simon Alexander Ong: And so just imagine if we were to schedule into our calendar me time, as quickly as we do those other things, I think what then happens is that we start to prioritize those moments of intentional rest rather than just being on all the time, because we can't be on all the time. We're not built to be on all the time. And so, we do need those periods to reset, rejuvenate and recharge.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and one of the things into this part of the book, I love as well is, you call it how you can go about electrifying your environment. Tell us about that?
Simon Alexander Ong: I've gone through a number of experiences that really electrified my environment, Steve. So, one of the messages I often share with clients and audiences is that the fastest way to make progress is to design an environment that makes it impossible not to succeed. And a lot of that comes down to how you are electrifying your environment, because if you are in environments that simply electrify you, open your mind to new ideas, elevate your thinking from big to astronomical. Then what happens is that you have a constant supply of energy from that source. Now your environment, isn't just people you spend time with. It is also what you watch, what you listen to, who you follow on social media, your physical environment, your digital environment, all of these things act as a force and an influence are not only how you see yourself, but what you see as possible for your future.
Steve Rush: And we often don't realize that our environment has changed so much over the last ten years. Some of the things like news, media, TV, and social media, that's so accessible to us now, if we're not really thoughtful about where we consume and indeed what we consume from those channels, it can have a massive impact on energy. Can't it?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. And that's why it goes back to the point of being aware. You know, if we're not a aware or consciously aware of how our environment is influencing our behavior and our energy, then what happens is that we simply become a victim to external events. But when we begin to take responsibility for where we are and where we want to be, that's when we actually deepen our awareness of, are we spending time focusing on things we can control or we're focusing on things we can't? And for many of us, it tends to be on the latter.
Steve Rush: You also talk about the environment being broader than what we just talked about indeed people as well, that you actually can infect and be infected positively adversely by people's energy states too.
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. And this is why you know, being aware and curating your environment is so important because energy is neutral in the sense that it doesn't care if you're spending time around negative or positive sources, you simply become infected by whatever quality of energy you spend time with. So of course, the more time you spend around negative sources of energy in no time, you're going to feel very negative. And likewise, if you spend a lot of time around sources of energy that are positive, in no time, you're going to start feeling very positive. And this is why we have to be very careful about the energy that we expose ourselves to. Because very quickly we become like the energy that we are associated with.
Steve Rush: You can't always visibly see this, but you can feel it. It's almost like a, I don't know how you'd describe it, but like it radiates from people. You can physically get good vibes, bad vibes, call it what you like from people. And that draws people to people, and it pushes them away. Doesn't it?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely, I mean, there's an interesting study that I came across in the research from my book, Steve, that showed that young children especially those under the age of three or four actually understand this in a way that we don't. So, to give an example, under the age of three or four children are still learning to speak fluently. So often they still speak quite broken, but if they were to walk into a room in which you know, parents have had an argument, a child can sense that and will react very differently to if the parents were very happy and were showering the child with love because they can't articulate those things in words, but they do it through emotion and body language. It's been shown that children actually can feel the energy of a room.
Steve Rush: It's fascinating, isn't it? In fact, I was chatting to a future guest last week.
Simon Alexander Ong: Mm-hmm.
Steve Rush: And they do leadership work with horses.
Simon Alexander Ong: Mm-hmm.
Steve Rush: And apparently horses can also feel energy from people in a very similar way. And, you know, they've described taking leadership teams to stables and the horse’s kind of spooking because they're not particularly effective. And conversely, you know, you can see these animals physically manifest when there's a positive energy with this team. Find it really fascinating.
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. Even if we look at organizations, I mean, those in positions of leadership are like the thermostat of the energy field of an organization, the leader is.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: Constantly emitting positive energy and vibes, then guess what? The people beneath him or her will feel exactly the same. And it's seeing when they show up with.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: Negative energy, of course, everybody around him or her will start feeling negative. And so, that's the same thing when we think about organizations
Steve Rush: And you close off your book with supercharging your impact, and ironically, the title of the book that you had planned was the last chapter of your book.
Simon Alexander Ong: [Laugh]
Steve Rush: Energy is everything. And how would you just kind of summarize the whole kind of energy and energy state?
Simon Alexander Ong: Sure. So, to summarize, think of it this way for the listeners. You may call it Chi. I mean, we've touched on that before, you may call it Chi if you come from Chinese culture. If you come from Maui culture, you will probably call it Mana or if you're a fan of the Star Wars film franchise, you will call it the force. Now, whatever we are referring to, it is the same thing, which is energy as a life force. And for me, once we start to tap into that from a spiritual and emotional and mental and a physical perspective, we begin to not only unleash our deepest potential, but what happens is we actually start to contribute to a story that will positively influence all the lives of people to come into contact with us. And that for me is how we supercharge our impact. It's by understanding the relationship we have with our energy as a life force and then to sharing that with other people so that they will be inspired to step out of the shadows of their own story and into the light of their hero potential
Steve Rush: Love it. I think it's amazing. So, we are going to share with our listeners at the end of the show, how they can get a copy of the book and learn more about you. Before I do that, though, I'm going to just flip the lens a little, and I'm going to hack into your great entrepreneurial and developmental brain and try and get you to distill all of that wise learnings and research into your top three leadership hacks, Simon, what would they be?
Simon Alexander Ong: Sure. So, if I had to extract free leadership hacks, the first would be to ask for help. The second would be to help others. And the third would be to diversify your inputs. And I'll just elaborate briefly on each one. So, the first ask for help. Simply taps into the concept that we never get to the top alone. And unless you are humble enough to embrace that eternal student mindset and to ask for help from other people, people that may be better than you in some respects with regards to skills or knowledge or insights, then what happens is that you start to think more innovatively and creatively. So, ask for help would be the first one. Second would be help others. You know, something I learned from one of my mentors, a man called Bob Burg, who co-authored the book, The Go-Giver is, that the secret to success is giving. And that is because our value as a human on this planet is determined by how much more we have given to the world than we have taken from it. And I think that the more we can help others, the more that we can unleash other people's leadership potential. Then what happens is that through that process, we are demonstrating leadership ourselves.
Steve Rush: Perfect example, of course, is when you give energy to people and you give the right attitude and environment, you get it back.
Simon Alexander Ong: This is Kamer in action.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: And the third one there is to diversify your inputs. And this is what I mean by diversity your inputs. If you only look at your competition, you can only be as good as your competition. And that immediately sets a bar to your growth because you're only using your competition as a benchmark. But once you open your mind to people from very different industries, from different walks of life, from different experiences, you begin to awaken your creative potential. And this is how innovation is born. It's not born by looking your competitors. It's born by looking at people outside of your industry, and then bringing in the impact and influence of those inputs into your own so that you are seen as innovative. So, to give an example, the idea for the cocktail to mark the launch of my book, Steve, that came about from being connected to the bartender, the world's best bar, The Connaught Hotel. The idea for the video trailer came from my conversations with a friend who directs movies. And so, by diversifying the inputs I have into my environment and my mind, I'm able to really explore my creativity.
Steve Rush: Yeah, I love it. Super hacks. So, in the next part of the show, Simon, we call it Hack to Attack.
Simon Alexander Ong: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: So, this is typically where it hasn't gone well. Now, you've had an incredible success journey, but there have probably been times as all of us where, you know, it's all gone wrong, and it's not worked out as we'd intended. So, as a result of that though, has there been a time where something's gone wrong and it's now serving you well?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely. I think the first example that came to my mind as you asked that question, Steve was the beginning of my speaking journey. And you may record a story actually because I shared it in a chapter in my book and it was when I got invited for my first paid speaking. I'd never done that before. I mean, I've done free talks before, but this was my first paid speaking.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: And so, I prepared rigorously for the delivery. I had notes, I had bullet points on what I wanted to cover. And I made my way to the event, which was held in Canary Wharf in London. It was at the top of one of these skyscrapers and fifty minutes before we were about to start, I checked him with the team. I said, are we all good? Can they see my slides? Does the tech work? And everything was okay. And then as I started to put my notes on the keyboard of my laptop so that I can reference them throughout the delivery, I noticed that in my rush, out of my house, I brought with me the wrong set of notes, i.e., the wrong set of paper.
And suddenly I was thinking, do I continue? Or do I stop.
Steve Rush: One of those moments, isn’t it?
Simon Alexander Ong: Where your kind of like, well, I didn't expect this. And so, I had to really regroup myself. And just for context, keep in mind this wasn't like a Ted Talk that was only 20 minutes long. This was a 90-minute workshop. So, this was a lengthy delivery, but I stayed there, and I followed through and delivering to the audience. And if there's anything I took from that experience, Steve, it's how to buy time when you need time to think about what you're going to say next [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yes. I've been there many times.
Simon Alexander Ong: And so, I remember a point saying to the audience when I needed the space to think what was going to come next, because I didn't have my notes with me. I would say things such as well. I would like you to take a moment now to turn to the person to the left and right of you and share your thoughts to what I just asked. And I would give them around five or six minutes or so. And I would use that time to think about what I'm going to say next, or what was I meant to say next? And so that taught me how to speak when things don't always go your way but also to speak without notes. And I think that has served me well since then, Steve.
Steve Rush: Super example. So, the last thing we get to do is give you the opportunity for a bit of time travel.
Simon Alexander Ong: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: And you can bump into Simon at twenty-one and give him some words of wisdom. Now, what do you think that might be?
Simon Alexander Ong: So much to share so much to tell Steve. I think the first thing that comes to mind, if I were to sit in front of that twenty-one Simon would be trust what your heart is telling you more than the approval of others. Because listen to your heart may not always get you to where you want to be, but it will always get you to where you need to be.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: And it's far better spending a time doing that than it is seeking validation from people who don't really care about your success.
Steve Rush: It's an interesting use of phraseology as well, listening to your heart because actually people argue, you probably have people at the end of their devices now going, how do you listen to someone's heart? The irony of what you've just described actually is listen to your energy. Meta physicians around the world will tell you that that's what's happening. It's the energy, right?
Simon Alexander Ong: Definitely because that's why I described in the second, I think it's the second or the third chapter that the longest journey we make as humans are the inches for my heads to our hearts.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Simon Alexander Ong: And the reason, it's never an easy journey because as you say, Steve, it's really about listening to our body and our energy. And some of us got the opportunity to do that when the world was in lockdown, because when you couldn't go outside, the only place you could go was inside.
Steve Rush: Yeah, that’s right.
Simon Alexander Ong: And so, as we reflected at a deep level about where we were in life and whether we were doing this sort of work, that brought fulfillment, it made many of us question what our next set of actions would be.
Steve Rush: Mm-Hmm.
Simon Alexander Ong: And I think a lot of that did contribute to this experience that is going on in America. And I'm pretty sure elsewhere in the world called the great resignation because people are now awakening to the fact that maybe I should give what I really want to do a shot.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and we're seeing that everywhere in every walk of life, which is really fascinating too. So, what's next for you then Simon? What's on the cards?
Simon Alexander Ong: [Laugh]. So, for me, I'm just enjoying as much as I can now, Steve, the book being out in the world, seeing in people's hands. I'm due to speak in India next month, next month, being June. So doing a free city tour and then Dubai in September. And I'm going to start thinking about book number two, because I'm already flush with lots of ideas on the back of this book. And so, join us for a moment, Steve, and then I I'll slowly see what's next.
Steve Rush: Fantastic. Sounds like episode number two for you.
Simon Alexander Ong: [Laugh]. Indeed, indeed.
Steve Rush: So, Simon, where can our listeners get a copy of Energize and tap into the great resources that you're putting out to the world right now?
Simon Alexander Ong: Sure. So, to learn more about the book and purchase a copy. You can head to getenergizebook.com. That is energized with a Z. And if you would like to connect with me or ask any questions on the back of this conversation, then you can find me on all social media platforms. But the two that I use the most are LinkedIn and Instagram in which my handle is at @Simonalexandero.
Steve Rush: Simon, thank you ever so much for coming and join us on the show. I am pretty certain that there is a massive opportunity around a corner for you. You are putting great energy out there and I'm certainly benefiting from it personally. So, thank you for that, and thank you for coming on the show and being part of our community.
Simon Alexander Ong: Steve, thank you so much and very grateful to have been invited onto your show.
Steve Rush: Thanks Simon.
Closing
Steve Rush: I want to sign off by saying thank you to you for joining us on the show too. We recognize without you, there is no show. So please continue to share, subscribe, and like, and continue to get in touch with us with the great new stories that we share every week. And so that we can continue to bring you great stories. Please make sure you give us a five-star review where you can and share this podcast with your friends, your teams, and communities. You want to find us on social media. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter @leadershiphacker, Leadership Hacker on YouTube and on Instagram, @the_leadership_hacker and if that wasn’t enough, you can also find us on our website leadership-hacker.com. Tune into next episode to find out what great hacks and stories are coming your way. That's me signing off. I'm Steve Rush, and I've been your Leadership Hacker.
Joseph O’Connor is the founder of the Neuroscience Coaching Centre, Co-Founder of the ICC, The International Coaching Community. Joseph is one of the worlds most renowned experts on NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming and written dozens of articles, over 20 books and education material on NLP and Coaching. In this show you can learn about:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services.
Find out more about Joseph
Joseph’s website: https://www.coachingthebrain.com
Joseph on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephlambent/
Joseph email: [email protected]
Full Transcript Below
Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach, or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as The Leadership Hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors, and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
The Leadership Hacker News
How many leaders does it take to change a light bulb? Well, the answer's one, however, it takes seven or eight leaders to decide that it's the right light bulb to change that it needs changing now, and that we have the right technical kit and equipment to change the light bulb. So where am I getting at here? Well, I asked a question. What is the optimum number of leaders that we need typically in a quorum to make the right decisions? There's lots of research about this. So, I dove into Harvard Business Review and Governance today. Harvard Business Review claims that seven is the right number and odd numbers in fact of any criteria is a good thing. While Governance today said it was eight to ten. Getting back to your actual number, think about the benefits of a large group. The more people you have, theoretically, the better chance you have getting the best information.
However, if that said seven or ten have really opened channels of communication, have created a flow of information through their workforce, then it is probably the right number. What is critically important however, is the diversity of that seven to ten, making sure they bring social sensitivity to situations, making sure that they reflect the true voice of their workforce in those meetings and have the real clarity understanding of expectations from not only their workforce, but their shareholders too. Going way back to the 1970s research concluded by Hackman and Vidmar on the Optum size of groups for membership, communication and outcomes actually composed an optimum size of four point six. This is based on research and science and still holds true somewhat today. Their study concluded that senior teams operate best when the optimum size of number is about seven. Correlated with our recent research, the research and studies provide evidence that the more the numbers are in a team and particularly a leadership team, the more likely the team is to encounter problems with its functioning and its outcomes. So, getting the size right, get the diversity of your team, right, tick, but let's not forget. Engagement of that team is incredibly important, and size alone is not sufficient in creating a winning success. That success depends on you as the leader of that leadership team, encouraging, engaging, and facilitating great conversations so they put their energy to the front so that you all collectively can achieve your goals. And for those listeners here today who have maybe smaller teams than seven in its entirety, who's on your personal board? How do you extend that team? So, you get diversity of thinking input and ideas. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Let's dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Our special guest today is Joseph O'Connor. He's the founder of the Neuroscience Coaching Center, co-founder of the ICC, that's the International Coaching Community. And he's one of the most renowned experts on NLP Neurolinguistic Programming. Joseph's written dozens of articles and over twenty books on the education of NLP and coaching. In his new book, Coaching The Brain, he explores how we can use our knowledge of the brain to help ourselves and others learn. We're truly in the presence of one of the world's global thought leaders in this space. Joseph, welcome to the show.
Joseph O’Conner: Thanks Steve. It's great to be here. Many thanks for those kind words.
Steve Rush: You're very welcome. You have an incredible history. There are very few guests that I get to speak to where I already have a bunch of their books that have taught me on my journey and yours is one of those. So, I'm delighted that we have the chance to speak it through. Tell us a bit about that, journey for you?
Joseph O’Conner: Originally [laugh]many years ago, I was professional guitarist. I was a professional musician, and this got me into an interest, of course, in how we perform? You know, how people do well or not. Because if you're playing classical guitar in front of a group of people, it's quite nerve wracking. So, I found that with most players, I could teach them how to play, but I couldn't teach them how to be able to give their best in front of a challenging audience. If you see what I mean, you know, that's just the first thing. I think in any kind of skill you can teach the skill, you can learn the skill, but it's something else to actually be able to do the skill when you really need to, especially if it's under challenging conditions. So, this really got me interested, in first of all, NLP, coaching you know, in a game of all sorts of things and really how we can get out of our own way when we really need to deliver.
Steve Rush: And since then, you have really dedicated almost a lifetime's work in that subject of NLP and coaching. What were the things that really drew you into that as a genre and as a philosophy, if you like?
Joseph O’Conner: Well, I've always been interested in the inner game as it were. It's fantastic to see people who are really, really good at something, you know, whether it's athletics, music theater, presentations, teaching, it doesn't matter, in anything. You see someone who's really, really good at something and it looks easy. I can remember as a kid seeing these great guitarists and thinking, hey, I could do that. You know, that looks really easy. And then when you actually come to do it, it's not, it's quite different. So, it's like what goes on inside as it were, these great people that allow them to not only do so well, but also to make it look so easy. And I guess this is what interested me all through when I was learning anything, that inner game thing, really.
Steve Rush: And the inner game as you call it, it's almost where NLP really overlays particularly well. So, the neuro is the neocortex, the part of our brain that's kind of supportive. And then of course.
Joseph O’Conner: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Neuro and linguistic is in how we teach our brain to perform in a certain way. And it is about teaching in habits, isn't it?
Joseph O’Conner: Yes, it is. I mean, I got on to NLP [laugh] again, through music, which was funny, but yes, neuro you know, the brain, the mind, how we think? Linguistic, how we communicate? Because language is just so amazing. There aren't that many words, but the ways that we can put them together to be able to communicate with ourselves and with others is just incredible. And my father was an actor and a writer as well. So, I kind of got that quite early and then programming, because I don't think the brain really works as a computer. I think that's an out molded metaphor, but the programming in the sense of how do we accomplish things, you know, how do we actually do things? How does it all work together in order to get things done? I think that's the basis of NLP. And then of course those things in terms of, what do we want? What are our goals? What's important to us? What do we believe? How do we act? This is all really important in coaching and getting the best from ourselves and from other people.
Steve Rush: And the irony of course is, that we've all been programming our brain broadly unconsciously from the moment that we were aware of the first environmental things around us. We started that coding and programming from a very early age, often that send us on a track, which we either recognize is helpful or hold us back, right?
Joseph O’Conner: Yeah, well, you know, when we're babies and children, we just take in the world and we don't discriminate very much about it you know, we don't make judgements about it so much. So, we are very, very sensitive. I think that's the great strength of human beings. We're incredibly sensitive to each other, to language, to the messages we receive. And we're always, always looking to try and make it mean something. To try and understand it, and to help to predict what's going to happen because a random world, you know, where we just don't know what's going to happen next. We can't prepare for it. It's awful. It's an awful idea. So, we're always trying to predict, we're always trying to have ideas, beliefs, mental models that allow us to predict and find our way through the world in the best way.
And yes, we are very sensitive to this, and of course our great strength and weakness is our ability to learn and to take in information and on a neuroscience point of view, it's that neuroplasticity of the brain, it's the brain's ability to change itself in response to experience. So, I like to think of the brain as a verb, you know, when we think of the brain, we kind of think of a big lump of whatever. It's a bit like soft butter, really, but it's stuff, but it's really a verb. It's really an organ for converting our experience into nervous tissue.
Steve Rush: Mm.
Joseph O’Conner: And then the nervous tissue in the brain in turn influences our experience and what we do and what we can do on from that. So, it's an amazing dynamic process. And our brain's changing all the time you know, my brain's changing, yours is changing. Our listeners brains will be changed after listening to this podcast. You can't help it. We are influenced by that. And that's both a blessing and a curse because in terms of the brain, the brain doesn't discriminate between some really poor messages and some really good ones.
Steve Rush: Mm.
Joseph O’Conner: So, it doesn't matter whether people are telling you or you are telling yourself more insidiously you know, I'm no good, I can't do this. This'll never work. All of these repetitive thoughts are going to build up the connections in the brain. That's going to start to make that a habit of thinking. In other words, a thought that's going to be the default easiest thought to fall into, in response to whatever happens.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: So, the brain doesn't discriminate about that. If you repeat that and if you get those messages, that's what the brain learns. Whereas of course we don't want to learn that sort of thing. We want the messages of, you know, you are good. You can do this. This is great. This is interesting, but we've got to take charge of our own learning very often.
Steve Rush: And the reality is as a species, a human being, human sapien, we really want it to be as straightforward and as easy as possible. We often look for the quickest, fastest, easiest route because our body doesn't like to face into the emotions that come with that challenge, right?
Joseph O’Conner: No, indeed. And we're quite lazy thinkers. There's this idea of the cognitive mind, you know?
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: It's hard work to think clearly and well and we tend to move away from it, which means that sometimes the sapien part [laugh] doesn't work so well.
Steve Rush: That's right.
Joseph O’Conner: My sapien ends.
Steve Rush: And I noticed that you drew a correlation early in your studies, when you were looking at professional musicians who were incredibly well versed, and you facing that kind of ambition to want to do the same. If we apply the approach of neuroscience to those individuals who are excel at anything actually.
Joseph O’Conner: mm.
Steve Rush: The two or three things that you notice that happen alongside is, one. There's repetition and practice. Because without that, you don't get good.
Joseph O’Conner: Yeah.
Steve Rush: But also, there is a definite conditioning of the mind that said I can, which keeps people going rather than I can't and holds people back. And that's also a core part of NLP teachings, isn't it?
Joseph O’Conner: Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's that saying? Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you are right.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: Because in that sense, you've conditioned yourself to, or put it this way, if you're going to succeed, it's good to believe it, right. You go into it fully, wholeheartedly, committedly. You're much more likely to succeed than if you go into it thinking, oh, well, maybe, you know, I'm not so sure about this. I'm not so good. That's kind of setting yourself up for failure. Now, there's no guarantees in the end of course. You may or may not get what you want, but you're more likely if you enter into it with those more positive intentions and positive ideas.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: And the repetition is important, absolutely. That's the way that we build habits. And we want to build habits because habits just help us to do things automatically. And we don't want to have to think over carefully, everything that we possibly do, these habits are really important, there's the saying, I think from the Chinese originally, that habits start as cobwebs, but they may end as chains. You know, we want to be careful what sort of habits we form because they're incredibly powerful.
Steve Rush: Yeah, be careful what you wish for and all that, isn't it?
Joseph O’Conner: Absolutely.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: Absolutely.
Steve Rush: So, we're going to dive into a little bit about coaching the brain and neuroplasticity and neuroscience in the moment before I do, though, I'm just intrigued to dive into the whole community that you set up and founded. So, the ICC is definitely one of the most recognized international coaching communities in the world. And that must be a fantastic experience to have seen that grow from a little acorn into hundreds of trees all over the world now. Tell me a little bit about the ICC?
Joseph O’Conner: Yes, well, we started the ICC myself and my wife and partner, Andrea. We started it in Brazil. In fact, around about 2001, we wanted to form something that encapsulated those three words. Like coaching, yes, absolutely. We were both coaches. We were both passionate and are passionate about helping people to be the best they can be as well as ourselves. So coaching, yes, international, we started internationally. The first was in Poland, I think. The second was in Rio Janeiro. The third was in Arboga in Sweden. So, it's like, it was international right from the start. And, you know, there's something about coaching something about people and helping people in this way that is international, it's transcends culture and country. When you dig down, we're all human beings and we all respond to the same basic things of what we want and what's important to us.
That international was very important from the start and then community, we chose that word quite carefully because a community is a group of people that wants to be together that shares value. I think very important for a group of people, because yes, you can kind of group together, you can be together, but do you want to be together? Do you share those values? And that for us was really important. So yes, we started then and now the ICC has, oh, I don’t know, the exact numbers, but something like sixteen thousand trained certified coaches in over sixty countries. And we have fifty trainers all over the world.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: So, it's wonderful to see.
Steve Rush: Amazing legacy, amazing legacy, and then fast forward to today. What's the focus of both you and Andrea's work today?
Joseph O’Conner: Well, I'm particularly interested at the moment in creativity, this kind of strange word you know, we say creativity, but it's really a process. Again, it's really about, how are you thinking? What are you doing? And it's probably the most valued and valuable commodity, process, gift, whatever you want to call it, talent that there is around because, you know, as the world moves so far, especially technologically. You can create good products and have good ideas, but then, you know, [laugh] maybe a year, maybe months, maybe weeks later and the world's caught up and you've got to continue to do it. And I think you can see this really clearly with businesses. The businesses that are doing well are, the fast, nimble creative ones that are always being able to change and adapt and come up with something that works rather than the more monolithic you know, here's the product and this is great, and this is how it's going to be. You've got to keep changing. So that ability to come up with something new, that works, that's appropriate, that fits, is just so important and something that I've got really interested in and how it relates to our intuitions about what to do and what works.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and I've also had a passion for creativity and studied it too. And delighted, we can kick this around, because what I've found in my research and exploring this whole philosophy is, this is something that as young children, we did incredibly well, we were naturally intuitive and we were naturally would go with our gut feel and we would be creative and we would play. But as we got a little bit older and more mature in our years and our days, it often was squeezed out of us unconsciously or consciously in some cases by our environment. What's the reason from your perspective, do you think that some people really struggle with this whole label of creativity?
Joseph O’Conner: Well, yeah, a lot. I mean a lot of people think they aren't creative. They think that it's some kind of magical talent that you are born with or not. And I don't think that's true at all. I think we're all naturally creative just by virtue of being human.
Steve Rush: Right.
Joseph O’Conner: I mean, you're quite right about children and being creative. And I can remember myself and I think we all can of those feelings when we were young, when it's just, yeah, we could just think and play, and it would be very spontaneous and flowing. And then gradually as you say, this tends to go. And I think, I mean, there's many reasons, but I think one of the reasons is the way sometimes that people are taught, like, here's the right answer, okay.
Steve Rush: Mm-hmm.
Joseph O’Conner: And this is how it's done and well, yes, this is all very interesting what you are doing, but you know, you're not quite right. This is a little bit silly. This is how it's done. This is the right answer. And we get imprisoned by the bars of the right answer. And then we forget all about the other answers and we forget that the right answer is only right in terms of the right question. It's the question that's important. Not the answer.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: The answer is only a response to the question. If you generate interesting, good, powerful, and new questions, you are going to get better answers. And I remember reading a statistics somewhere and I can't remember it exactly, unfortunately, but it's something like at the age of seven. The average child asks something like two hundred questions a day, right, [laugh].
Steve Rush: Wow.
Joseph O’Conner: By the age of twenty-seven, it's down to about four questions a day.
Steve Rush: Blimey.
Joseph O’Conner: Of which one is probably, what's for lunch? [Laugh].
Steve Rush: [laugh].
Joseph O’Conner: But you know, you can see that and that I think encapsulates what happens with us and how we tend to kind of sink into this well yeah. But all the answers are out there, let's just fit into them.
Steve Rush: And do you think there's something to do with habit here as well? We get out the habit of being creative. We get out the habit of play. We get out the habit of asking questions.
Joseph O’Conner: Yeah, we do. You know, for again, from the neuroscience point of view, habit is something that you've practiced with attention. And if it's a good habit, it fits, and you've done it and you've built it up consciously. So, you forget about it. You know, all of these things that we do automatically, we don't have to think about them. We forget about them. I think there's something really important about choosing your habits well. You choose your habits well, including habits of thinking, then you are going to do much better. And if one of those habits is thinking yes, of course I'm creative. Even if it's only in small ways, I am creative, I am intuitive. I can do this. And to give yourself the opportunity to do it and to continue to repeat doing it. Although of course you're not always going to be so successful as you would like, it's that repetition, it's the attention. It's the emotion and the value behind it. That's going to drive you forward and you'll get better at it. There's no doubt about it.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and there's part of the limbic system called the basal ganglia, whose job it is to keep us in that habit. And as soon as we don't give it attention, it starts to lose that habit. And all the, while we think that habits formed, we can also lose habits as quickly as we can repeat them and gain them.
Joseph O’Conner: Yeah, we can lose habits. And of course, a lot of people want to lose habits.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: And that's fine. And you can, of course, and the way to lose a habit is to replace it by another one. I like the metaphor of the ski slope. It's like, you've got the ski slope with this unbroken snow, which is like the metaphor for the brain. And there aren't any connections. So, then the first skier goes down and makes a track. There's already a track in the snow, tends to follow that. And the third and the fourth. So, after a while, because so many skiers have gone down in the same way, you've got this track and that's the habit.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: And that's the connection in the brain that's been worn down. So that's the default way that people will go down. Now, if you want to change the habit, what you have to do is, to ski down another way, not use the ski track that's already there.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: And if you continue then to ski down the other way, you'll make a track there and the snow will cover over the first one. So, we are more in control. We are in control of our habits as long as we feel that, and we can change them when we become aware of them. And of course, the difficulty is always, the habit is easy, it's the path of the least resistant.
Steve Rush: It's a fabulous analogy. I'll be absolutely using that from today onwards. Thank you for sharing it.
Joseph O’Conner: [Laugh], good.
Joseph O’Conner: So, let's dive into the book, Coaching The Brain. What was the inspiration for you having? And if I can be so bold, you've covered pretty much every genre across the whole NLP and coaching landscape that I can see. Then coaching the brain seems like an obvious place to fit because that's pretty much all of the teachings I think you've had in the past. But what was the inspiration for the book for you?
Joseph O’Conner: Well, two things. I like to write books on things I'm interested in, and I want to learn about, so I don't like to, I don't want to write a book on something that I feel that I know a lot about, and I'm an expert on, and it's just kind of filling in the pages. I want to write something that I'm interested in. I've always been interested in neuroscience and from a coaching point of view. Well, from any point of view, really, I like to look at the gaps, what's missing in some study? In the same way that as a coach when you ask questions and when people are talking to you, it's of course, interesting to know what they're saying, but it's also very interesting to know what they're not saying. What's missing? What could or even should be there in order to understand what's going on. So, in the same way if we go back a few years, there wasn't a great deal of representation of neuroscience in coaching.
Steve Rush: That's right.
Joseph O’Conner: And I thought this was a gap, and I thought it was important because the more we know about the brain, the more we can understand the purely psychological models of what works and what doesn't work, and we can refine them, and we can also change them. And we can also get new ones because the cognitive neuroscience is the biology of the mind. So, to understand that biology of the mind is going to help us to understand our mind and others and to use it better. So, the book came from that. It's like, yeah, neuroscience is interesting. I think I want to learn about this. I think it needs to be in coaching. So actually, I went first of all to New York to get a brain scan for myself.
Steve Rush: Ah.
Joseph O’Conner: [laugh] it's like, you know, let's start with yourself of course. I wasn't ill in any way, but I did want to do this and to find out. So, this was very interesting, and I came back with a lot of highly colored photographs and a lot of insight into how I think and you know, some kind of explanations about, oh yeah, that's always puzzled me. Well, yeah, that's how it works after all. And so, took the book from there, talking with many people, of course, reading and putting it together, but always with a sense of the subtitle of the book, which is practical applications of neuroscience to coaching.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: Because, yeah, of course neuroscience is interesting and you can really delve into it how the brain works and you can go into all the Latin names of all the, bits that are there. But in the end, unless you can actually use, for me, anyway, unless you can actually use that to make a difference for yourself and for other people, then for me, it's you know, it's only the first step, so, you know, hey, yeah. How can we use this? What's important? And that's how the book came about.
Steve Rush: And I observe in my coaching career, so I've been coaching professionally and as an amateur coach, probably for twenty-five years. And it wasn't until I really understood the impact of neuroscience on my coachee that I really changed my coaching game because it is as simple as just understanding some of the subtle levers we might want to pull or not, as the case may be, the language we could choose, the environment we're in, all of these have an effect on an outcome, don't they?
Joseph O’Conner: Yes. Oh yes, they do.
Steve Rush: So how do we go about coaching the brain specifically?
Joseph O’Conner: [Laugh] well, when you say that's phrase, it's an interesting question, because paradoxically my immediate response would be, we got to be careful not to isolate the brain and to think about when your are coaching somebody, you are just coaching their mind or their brain or any particular part of them. And of course, as coaches, we know, and all good coaches know that you are coaching a human being, mind, body, spirit, all the time. So, in terms of that metaphor of coaching the brain, it's well, how does our understanding of the biology of the mind help us to be better coaches for our clients who come to us and indeed for ourselves in order to be, you know, healthier, happier and more productive? There was three important things. I think, if I could pick the three biggest, most important things that came out of my studies for that book.
Steve Rush: Sure.
Joseph O’Conner: And they're not rocket science in a way. And you know, anyone listening may think, well, yeah, that's obvious, isn't it? Well, yes. In a way it is, but that's again, you know, when we look at something and say, oh, that's obvious, I knew that. Then sometimes that's an excuse just to forget it and think, well, okay, fine, you know, been there, done that, got the t-shirt and we can forget about it again. But if you take these things seriously, they make a huge difference. So, the first one was sleep. Sleep is really, really important for our brain and for our health. You know, there's only a few things that you die if you don't get them, one is air of course, very quickly, another, is water, food, and the fourth is sleep.
If you don't sleep, you die. Takes a few weeks, but you do. And the brain needs sleep in order to consolidate the memories and the skills that you've done. The brain needs rest and healing every night, it's really important. And one thing really struck me with regard to some of the statistics which is, in the UK, of course we have this daylight-saving time where at the end of March, the clocks go forward, I think, and you have one hour less sleep. And even on one hour less sleep. The road traffic accidents due to people not paying attention, spiked dramatically the next day.
Steve Rush: Wow.
Joseph O’Conner: Even, you know, one hour less sleep. So, to expect people to function well on poor quality and poor quantity of sleep is crazy. And it's such a shame when, you know, hardworking executives will say things like, well, you know, yeah, I can do fine on four hours sleep at night. There’s a lot of work to do, right. It's more important than sleep well, in one way, it is. But in the other way, they're working against themselves because if they took an extra two, three hours of sleep, they'd actually do better with the work that they had to do during the day.
Steve Rush: Yeah, just one observation actually around sleep. If you think about it in simple terms, if you didn't eat for a whole 24-hour period at worst, you'd be hungry. But if you didn't sleep for a whole 24-hour period, you'd start pumping into psychosis.
Joseph O’Conner: Yes.
Steve Rush: That's the difference between the two kinds of approaches, isn't it?
Joseph O’Conner: [Laugh] yes. Well, I don’t know, I'm tempted to say we've all done it and pulled an all nighter. I certainly have, and you're just useless the next day. Completely useless. It's you know, you just lose a day [laugh] instead of doing some good for yourself at night, you just lose the next day. So yeah, absolutely.
Steve Rush: So, what were the other things that came out?
Joseph O’Conner: Well, exercise, physical exercise, because of course the brain is embodied, it's part of the body and if the body isn't healthy, then the brain doesn't do well either. So physical exercise very important. And the third is meditation, some kind of meditation or mindfulness practice has really iron clad research, in terms of benefits for emotional intelligence, emotional stability, focus, concentration for the brain.
Steve Rush: Yeah, all form part of resilience as well. Ironically.
Joseph O’Conner: Yes.
Steve Rush: Yes. So, when I dove into the book, there were a few areas I'd just love to explore with you. One was hot cognition. Tell us a bit about what that is?
Joseph O’Conner: Hot cognition. Yeah, well, I guess the metaphor here and there's been a metaphor like this for thousands of years, the Greeks had this metaphor of the human being as a charioteer. And they have two horses drawing chariot. One is black horse, which represents emotions. And one is the white horse that represents reason. And in the metaphor, which I think Plato used first. The chariot is always trying to get these two horses to kind of work together. And the problem is, very often the black horse of emotions kind of going off their own way and drawing the chariot to one side where they don't want to go. And sometimes that indeed is our experience of emotions kind of take us over and we do or say things that we regret afterwards which is a pity because emotions have enormous energy.
And to be able to harness that energy in a constructive way is, really, really important rather than allow the energy to either, you know, explode like in anger or to kind of implode like in anxiety or fear and stop us doing something or in anger, you know, make us do something that we didn't want to do. So, you know, that's one metaphor. Now, the metaphor that I prefer is the hot and cold streams, because all of our thinking is warm to some extent, right. You don't get anyone who's completely cold, rational, logical thought outside Star Trek, you know, outside the Falcon.
Steve Rush: [Laugh] yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: It doesn't exist. You couldn't do it actually. You couldn't make decisions for a start. So, there's always emotion there. There's no thinking without emotion, there's no emotion without thinking. It's just that our thoughts change temperature, depending on what we're thinking about, who's with us and these sorts of things. So sometimes the thinking is much hotter. It's got much more of an emotional component. So, the parts of brain, particularly the prefrontal cortex that's involved with emotion and integrating emotion is more active. And at other times, the part of the prefrontal cortex is more about rationality and reason, and logic is more active. Most of our thinking is fairly lukewarm. Occasionally maybe if we're doing math’s or something, it gets quite chilly. And then if we get really angry, it gets very hot indeed. So, how do we manage that? I think is, the important question in terms of coaching neuroscience and this idea of what sort of thinking and how do we best manage that emotional intelligence as well?
Steve Rush: And one of the other areas that I really liked, and I often find itself presents when I'm coaching is the whole notion of identity, the labels people wear.
Joseph O’Conner: Mm-hmm.
Steve Rush: And I wondered if you give us your spin on how identity forms are part of a coaching conversation and how we might want to help people pay attention to their identity?
Joseph O’Conner: Oh, wow. Yeah, how long have we got? [laugh] A couple of days? [laugh]. Well, identity is a strange concept. And again, bit like creativity or the brain. I think it's a process. I don't think it's a thing. I think that once you kind of decide your identity and fix it, then I think you've lost something. I think you've lost an important part of living. Here's just a couple of thoughts. I think irreducibly we all are aware. We can all say I am, and that is in a sense, quite impersonal and the absolute bedrock of our identity. Everyone can say, I am. Now the things that then get pulled on top of that, where people start to say, you know, I am a coach, I am a leader, I am a father, a mother, a child, a teacher, a good person, a bad person, whatever it might be. Those come from the process of living an experience. And sometimes we identify with those for good or bad. So, I think the quick answer would be identity's a process that's always under construction. We all have a bedrock to it, the foundation of it, which is this feeling of I am. And I also think that it's more mutable and more changeable and more chewable perhaps than we sometimes think.
Steve Rush: And it can often also create behaviors based on the identity you choose to wear.
Joseph O’Conner: Mm-Hmm.
Steve Rush: Because as you rightly said, you can choose that identity in different scenarios, and that comes with a different set of behaviors, right?
Joseph O’Conner: Yes. Yes. I mean, in many ways we're fully functioning schizophrenics, you know, we are two different people, depending on the context. You know, we all know when I'm with my daughter, I'm a different sort of person to when I'm standing on stage giving a training or when I'm coaching or something like that.
Steve Rush: That's right.
Joseph O’Conner: We're very flexible in that way, amazingly flexible. But at the same time, there is something there underneath that we can always come back to and know clearly.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: To ground ourselves.
Steve Rush: So, we're going to give folk an opportunity to dive into the work you're doing. Find out about the book in a little while. Before we do that, though, this is where we turn the table a little and we get to hack into your years of experience of leading teams and leading others. And just dive to find out what your top three leadership hacks would be? Top tools, tips, or ideas.
Joseph O’Conner: Oh, wow. One would be authentic, be yourself. Don't try to pretend to be something that you aren't because it doesn't work. Usually, people will see through it. So whatever leadership context you're in, be authentic. Secondly, and this may be a bit of a paradox. You need to adapt to other people, as to what they are. I think one style of leadership for everybody doesn't work. And I think leadership has evolved over the last fifty to a hundred years from a time where it was, this is what you do to be a good leader, you know, learn these characteristics and you'll be a good leader, kind of laundry list thinking. Two, well, there's a whole set of skills here and people are very different. And leadership is a very mutable changing kind of skill that you've got to be very flexible in terms of, you know, it's not just about, I am a leader, but who are you leading? Because a leader, without anybody, as it were to follow them doesn't exist. You know, you can't be a leader on your own crying in wilderness. So, you've got to pay attention and adapt to the people that are with you. Let's put it that way. So that would be the second one. The third one would be the ability and willingness to say no where necessary because you know, people who are good leaders are usually pretty good at delay thing.
Therefore, they are under a lot, people ask them, you know, the better you are at something, the more people will ask you to do stuff. And this becomes a vicious circle whereby you start being pretty good at something people start asking you then overburdening you. And very soon, because you're trying to do too much and spreading yourself too thin you lose that edge that you had at the beginning. So, I think again, part of being authentic is to say, this is what I want to do. And these other things, while very interesting. And I wish you the very best with them. They're not for me.
Steve Rush: Power of no, really important. Love it.
Joseph O’Conner: Yes.
Steve Rush: The next part of the show we call it Hack to Attack. So, this is typically where something in your life or your work hasn't worked out well, could have even been quite catastrophic, but as an experience, you now use it as a force of good. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Joseph O’Conner: There's many examples. Just maybe a more trivial one. Some years ago, I was involved in some marketing, I think it, through some social media or LinkedIn or something like that. And I sent out an email, which I meant to send to one or two people. I sent it out to a list of some thousands of people. And, you know, you have that horrible. Oh my God moment.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: You've just pressed send, and then you think just a minute, did I do that right? And then that horrible thinking feeling where, oh God.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: So, and you know, a lot of people didn't like that at all, and I felt embarrassed and there was a number of emails back from people, but it taught me lot. It taught me to be able to, and I can remember this now after it happened, it's going, you know, initial panic. Yes. Absolute panic. And then you go, okay, well that's happened and there's no way I'm going to get this back. So, you better deal with it [Laugh]. And so, in that sense, it was a very clear example because often these things take much longer to happen. You know, you do something, and it carry on doing it and it takes maybe a few weeks. And then you think, oh my God, we know what have I done? And then there's a lot of trying to take things back or trying to change it or say, no, I didn't really mean that or whatever it was, and which can sometimes make things worse or covering it up. You know, they say that it's not the crime, it's the cover up that gets you into trouble.
Steve Rush: Yeah, that's right.
Joseph O’Conner: So, I think this was a good example where it's like, okay, that's done. No way to get that back. So, you better deal with it. So that was one lesson, and second lesson was, I've never done it again. I [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: I made sure that I learned in excruciating detail how these things work [laugh] so that, you know, I was much more a master of communications and marketing than before. And even now I have an email address where there's a two-minute delay that's programmed in so that I press send. And if it's wrong, then I know, oh, thank God it hasn't sent yet. It won't send for two minutes.
Steve Rush: That's a perfect example of where neuroscience has created an instant reaction in you and created a really big, thick layer of neuroplasticity.
Joseph O’Conner: [Laugh].
Steve Rush: Neuro pathways. I'm not going to repeat that one [Laugh].
Joseph O’Conner: Well, yes. You know, with neuroplasticity. If you repeat stuff, you learn, but also you have one big emotional experience.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: That also it's like a very heavy skier [laugh] or like a bulldozer going down the ski slope.
Steve Rush: That's it. Tracks already made. There it is.
Joseph O’Conner: It make a really big track.
Steve Rush: Yeah, so the last part of the show, Joseph, we want to do is, we get our guests to do a bit of time travel. You get to bump into yourself at twenty-one and give yourself some advice and some words of wisdom. What would it be?
Joseph O’Conner: Twenty-one, oh my God. Oh, I don’t know. It it's like, hey, man. Yeah, I love you. You're going to be alright. Don't sweat the small stuff, you know, sleep well and it'll be okay.
Steve Rush: Awesome. Sometimes that's all it takes, right. It's just that little bit of reassurance. And I like that, yeah.
Joseph O’Conner: I mean, you know, from that perspective, you know, what would you say to your twenty-one-year-old self? But supposing you are twenty-one and some guy comes, suddenly appears in your room and goes, hey, it’s going to be alright.
Steve Rush: Yeah, I'm not sure I'd ever paid huge amounts of attention.
Joseph O’Conner: But how would that change your life?
Steve Rush: Indeed?
Joseph O’Conner: Or would it?
Steve Rush: Sliding doors maybe?
Joseph O’Conner: Yeah, yeah.
Steve Rush: Yeah, so that's the whole kind of crazy notion of time travel, isn't it? Is that, you know, you are who you are, you've created what you've created because that Joseph at twenty-one gave you the permissions to do what you did. If you change that, then who knows what the future would hold. That's a whole deeper, meaningful conversation. Let’s not go there.
Joseph O’Conner: [Laugh] yeah.
Steve Rush: So, I've loved chatting. I'm really delighted to be part of our community on The Leadership Hacker Podcast, Joseph. So how can our listeners get hold of a copy of the books? And I say books, there are many, and find out a little bit more about the work you've done?
Joseph O’Conner: Well, first of all, I'm on LinkedIn, I’m on Facebook as well. So can contact me there. coachingthebrain.com is the website where you can read about the courses there. And I'm just starting the creator's club. So, if you're interested in creativity, intuition and hacking into to that, then you can get me at [email protected].
Steve Rush: Brilliant. We'll put those links in the show note and you can count me in. I'm absolutely in. Joseph, thanks ever so much for coming on the show, some great stories, some great lessons, and thank you for helping the world on the journey you've been and personally thanks for helping me on my journey too.
Joseph O’Conner: Well, thank you, Steve. It's a pleasure. Yeah, we do what we do and it's like we all drop pebbles into the lake, don't we? And the ripples go out and we have no idea where the ripples go to, and we hope that they ripple against the shore in some good places. And I'm really pleased that it's happened. So, thank you and wish you the very best.
Steve Rush: Thanks, Joseph. Really appreciate it.
Closing
Steve Rush: I want to sign off by saying thank you to you for joining us on the show too. We recognize without you, there is no show. So please continue to share, subscribe, and like, and continue to get in touch with us with the great new stories that we share every week. And so that we can continue to bring you great stories. Please make sure you give us a five-star review where you can and share this podcast with your friends, your teams, and communities. You want to find us on social media. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter @leadershiphacker, Leadership Hacker on YouTube and on Instagram, the_leadership_hacker and if that wasn’t enough, you can also find us on our website leadership-hacker.com. Tune into next episode to find out what great hacks and stories are coming your way. That's me signing off. I'm Steve Rush, and I've been your Leadership Hacker.
Fred Joyal was founder of of 1-800-DENTIST, which for over 30 years has generated over a billion dollars in revenue. No he’s a keynote speaker, coach and author of the book Superbold: From Under Confident To Charismatic In 90 days. This amazing show uncovers:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Fred below:
Fred on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fredjoyal/
Fred on Twitter: https://twitter.com/fredjoyal
Fred on Instagram: https://instagram.com/fredjoyal
Fred’s Website: https://fredjoyal.com
Full Transcript Below
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Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach, or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as The Leadership Hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors, and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
Today's special guest is Fred Joyal. He's a speaker, author and business coach on the superpower of boldness and the author of Superbold: From Under Confident To Charismatic In 90 Days. But before we get a chance to speak with Fred, it's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: We're going to explore names, names matter. My name is Steve. Everybody introduced themselves with this one special gift that we were given from the moment of our birth. Yet, how often do we get people's names wrong? And how often do we give ourselves the permission to say, oh, I'm terrible with names, but I'm great with faces. A somewhat convenient excuse, maybe. We live and work in a really multicultural society. Our names come from all over the world and not necessarily from the location you are in, they sound different, they have different spellings, they may be shortened names that are nicknames almost in replace of their real names but come in many different ways.
Some of my kids in fact have even changed their names. Well, metaphorically changed names growing up because they thought they weren't comfortable with this particular label, but soon changed it back. Whichever way we think about our names, it's our identity. You must know how it feels when somebody gets your name wrong and that's because getting someone's name right really matters. It may take a bit of extra effort. You may have to ask them to spell it. However, often minimal effort as a leader can really engage people when they know, you know them, and this demonstrates you're willing to take an interest in them and from wherever their name derives their culture too. So, is this such a big effort? Let's have a look. The acknowledgement, firstly, that the name is tricky for you is okay. Let people know that if they have got a tricky name. That demonstrates you care enough; recognize you may need to take time to practice somebody's name.
And as much as that sounds crazy, it will make a huge impact to the relationship. Ask the person for clarification if you are unsure. I've made loads of mistakes on this podcast initially, when I've had guests come on the show and made an assumption on how their name was spelled. Only to have to re-edit episodes to get their name right. And by practicing and persevering until you do get it right, you create a bond between the individual and you, when we address your colleagues by name, especially in team settings and meetings, it helps collaboration, and that behavior will help create effective teamwork. Saying people's names is a strong signal that you see them, you value them and that you want their input. So, make this an everyday practice, greet people by their names, look in their eyes as you do so, and introduce colleagues to each other by their names and let's get it right.
So, the next time, you're not sure on how to say somebody's name. Just politely ask. I'm not sure how to say your name, please can you help me pronounce it or just be brave and go for it and ask them, did I get that right? You'll soon find out. And most importantly, demonstrate once more that you value them. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Let's go ahead and dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Fred Joyal is a special guest on today's show. He was the co-founder of Futuredontics, the parent company of 1-800-DENTIST, which for over 30 years has generated over a billion dollars in revenue. He's just written a fantastic book called, Superbold: From Under Confident To Charismatic In 90 days. And it's an Amazon and Wall Street Journal bestseller. He's also been a TV and commercial actor as well as a standup comedian, and now sharing his learning through coaching, speaking and other business consultancy. Fred, welcome to our show.
Fred Joyal: Steve, excited to be here.
Steve Rush: So, I've just finished reading Superbold, and I can tell our listeners without hesitation. It is an amazing read. And personally, for a middle-aged guy falling into habits, I still found myself thinking, wow, that's me. So, we're going to get into some of that a little bit later, but before we do, it'll be really great for you just to share some of that very varied and wide experiences that you've picked up along the way.
Fred Joyal: Yes, I'm happy to do that. I started many years ago as a junior copywriter as an ad agency, and that was the first job I really liked. Like, it was the first groove I really found. I was wandering and trying all sorts of things. I was fairly directionless, and then when I hit the advertising world, I thought, oh, I could actually do this for a lifetime, you know, for a career. And it led me to starting my own business, which was 1-800-DENTIST, which is a referral service for dentist, where we run advertising, run a call center to attract the calls and then disseminate those calls out to dentists. And I did that for about 30 years. I owned the business and sold it about five years ago. And it was much more successful than we imagined.
But tons of twists and turns, you know, you run a business for 30 years, you know, through recessions and internet booms and busts and all of that. And plenty of good and bad things happen along the way. And that's actually what I coach businesses on now is, how to hit different potholes than I hit or not hit them at the same speed that I hit them so that they can accelerate their success.
Steve Rush: Right.
Fred Joyal: And then of course, got to the point where, you know, Superbold became an emerging theme that I really wanted to get out.
Steve Rush: So, when you hear the word Superbold, you call it Superbold because you actually have come to the conclusion. I think, as I have having read the book that it is a superpower, right?
Fred Joyal: Absolutely, yes. I mean, if I had to give my child one thing, it would be the confidence and understanding that confidence is the foundation. Boldness is taking that confidence and going into action and learning what happens when you're bold that bold people have always understood whether they learned it as children or they never unlearned it. But they learn all of these things that all of the great stuff in life really occurs when you're bold.
Steve Rush: Right.
Fred Joyal: And that's how you can have the most impact on the world.
Steve Rush: And you cite in your book, actually, a bunch of successful business leaders and entrepreneurs just share some of those that you share in the book. And actually, we probably all noticed that there is boldness that comes with that.
Fred Joyal: Yeah, certainly you know, somebody like, Sir Richard Branson is constantly making bold moves. He'll jumps from industry to industry which is a fairly reckless thing to do for most people. But he had learned that if you approach it in a certain way and you protect your downside risk, amazing things can happen. And you can take that brand from a record business to a telephone business, to a soda business, to an airline, to outer space. And now a cruise line and hotel line, all of these things, he has 400 brands under the Virgin emblem, as far as I know. Somebody like Tony Hsieh who started Zappos and he didn't start it. He actually came into Zappos as the CEO and had made millions very young. He and his brother had made a very successful exit early on that gave him tens of millions of dollars. By the time he was done, he had poured every bit of it into Zappos.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: And Zappos reached a billion dollars of revenue in 10 years. So, he generated a hundred million dollars of growth a year by just saying, I could go into the shoe business by approaching it in a completely different way and pushed all his chips in the middle of the table when he had complete financial security, but he went to the next level.
Steve Rush: And people like Elon Musk at the moment, who's continually reinventing himself, just bought Twitter. And everybody's asking the question now, what does this guy want with Twitter?
Fred Joyal: Yeah, and he's not going to tell us right away.
Steve Rush: Exactly.
Fred Joyal: But it fits into his grand scheme or it's just something he said, this has to be done differently. Just like, he looks at transportation as being needing to be disrupted and satellites and outer space. And, you know, like why would you launch a rocket and throw away the booster? You know, he looks at things like that. You know, why would you build a car and not use the battery as the chassis for an electric car, those kinds of things, and why not dig tunnels under cities? Why not create that technology?
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: What Twitter's got to do with that? Who knows?
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: But he guesses right quite often.
Steve Rush: He does, yeah. And to your experience, when you think of entrepreneurs and businesspeople, can you actually be successful and Uber successful without being bold?
Fred Joyal: I don't think so. Because you need to go into action without certainty.
Steve Rush: Right.
Fred Joyal: And actually say, whatever happens, I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to absorb that knowledge and make whatever changes or go in 180-degree, different direction. Because the marketplace has told me something about, that what it wants, and it wasn't what I thought I wanted.
Steve Rush: Hmm.
Fred Joyal: But they gave me a big clue and now I can go in that direction.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: You know, he started, even when, you know, Elon Musk started you know, the Tesla, it was a little Lotus with an electric engine, and it was a sports car. It really, only was fast. It wasn't comfortable. It wasn't useful as a car. It was a toy.
Steve Rush: Mm.
Fred Joyal: But then he said, okay, what people really need is a multi-passenger vehicle. And he actually created a seven-passenger vehicle. And the reason a lot of people don't realize that the original Tesla sedan was seven passengers, because he's got five kids.
Steve Rush: [Laugh] practical as well.
Fred Joyal: Yes. Little things like give feedback takes boldness, except feedback takes boldness, meeting people. The cornerstone of anybody's success is their ability to meet whomever they want.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Whenever they want and create a real connection with those people, not network, but actually connect.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: With people. And that takes stepping up and it takes developing those skills. Boldness allows you to develop these skills. You can read about them all day, if you're not bold enough to put them into action, you'll never develop the skill. If you want to learn to be a great public speaker, there's a hundred books on it. You could read them all. You'll still be a terrible public speaker.
Steve Rush: Yes, right. Very true.
Fred Joyal: But get on stage and suck [laugh] and watch the video of it and you'll get better.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: And every time you get on stage, you'll get better.
Steve Rush: So, in its rawest sense, how would you describe boldness?
Fred Joyal: It is chasing your dreams, however, going after an opportunity, a moment, whether it's fun, whether it's meeting somebody, whether it's taking a chance on a business, it's putting your idea out there, putting yourself out there, bringing your full self to the world, whether it's in a personal situation or business situation, personal situation could be say, I really want to meet that attractive young man or woman across the room at this party. Or it could be, I need to raise 10 million from my business and I have to pitch it so that they believe that I will execute it. And you know, if you know investors, they bet on the person, there's millions of ideas out there. They call it, we bet on the jockey, not the horse.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Is what they say.
Steve Rush: I've heard that before, yeah.
Fred Joyal: Yeah, and so you've got to, it takes boldness to say, I can make this happen. I will do whatever it takes to make this happen and project that. You can't succeed without it. And it is, just allowing your full self to blossom. You don't become somebody else. I'm not somebody else than who I was as a young man, very shy. I am the full me. I can bring the full me in every situation.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: And that's impactful.
Steve Rush: What's the reason that some people often get boldness confused with either arrogance or confidence in your experience?
Fred Joyal: Because they confuse a narcissist with somebody, bold. A narcissist is actually extremely, under confident, extremely insecure. Whatever you think of former President Trump, he had an incredibly thin skin. Every little slight offended him. And that's very typical of that type of personality. That's not bold. True boldness has an element of humility in it because you know that there's so much more that you can become rather than pretending that you are enough or more than enough, or amazing or great. It's, you’re moving through the world saying, I can be better.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Because that's what true boldness teaches you is. Wow. Just like what you're saying with my book is, you consider yourself probably a fairly bold person. But as you read the book, you say, wow, that's like five areas I could be bolder.
Steve Rush: Definitely, yeah.
Fred Joyal: As you mature in life, you become more humble because you appreciate how much more there is to know. But to me, boldness is, you want to have as much of a positive impact on the world. Because that's mature fulfillment. It's not about taking advantage of people or conning people. Because that's what a confidence man does is con people. He convinces them to trust him, and that takes a certain amount of boldness, but you've feeding the dark side.
Steve Rush: It's almost misguided boldness, isn't it?
Fred Joyal: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Yeah, and the irony behind Superbold as well, Fred is, that you learned the techniques that you scribe in the book, but not in 90 days, but in 30 years, right. So, you were a really shy individual, struggled with boldness. How did that transformation come about?
Fred Joyal: You know, I get to really examine it as I was writing the book and I realized that it was just a tremendous amount of frustration that actually I was angry at myself at times because I said, wow, you actually have missed a great opportunity. Whether it was meeting a terrific woman or speaking up in a certain situation or missing out on you know, a great adventure or just a very powerful moment or very important moment, like giving a eulogy for a friend and you know, so many people do this. They say, oh, I'm not good at public speaking. I hate to be in front of people. It's like, really? Your best friend just passed away and you're not going to get up and say something. You're never going to get another chance, that window's going to close. And that's analogous to a lot of things in life.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: These windows of opportunity shut, whether it's that person across the room that you want to meet and you say, oh look, nobody's talking to Jeff Bezos right now. I can go over and talk to him, and it takes you 10 minutes to get up the nerve. Meanwhile, somebody has walked up and talked to him and now you can't interrupt, or you have to interrupt, which is going to be even hard. I'll take you 10 minutes more to get up the nerve to do that.
Steve Rush: You describe a bunch of situations in the book actually, where you've shared situations where you'd missed out or you thought you could do things. And it was only after the event that, that kind of boldness aha moment presented itself for you.
Fred Joyal: And I saw bold people and I would say, why are they like this? Why are they not processing rejection the way I do? Why does it bounce off them? They just go in fairly uncertain about the outcome, but they don't care because they know they're going to discover something. And once you start doing it, once you start behaving boldly, you say, oh yeah, this thing was totally unexpected, but this thing's great that happened. I was hoping to do this, but I was open to anything and then something completely different happened that was better. I love to emphasize this, especially early on because a lot of people don't realize this, and bold people know this. It's almost as fulfilling to try and fail as it is to try and succeed. Almost. It's very similar. What hurts? Is not trying, that's painful. That nausea at you for years, if not forever
Steve Rush: Moments lost almost isn't it, you know?
Fred Joyal: Yeah, but if you tried, you go a lot easier on yourself. Look, I walked over, and I talked to that woman, and she told me she was married, and I turned around and I said, well, that's lovely to hear, nice to meet you and walked away. Instead of saying, geez, I really should have met her because she's the girl of my dream. Now what bold people also find out is, they're wrong about those things. They know is like, I could stand here and fantasize that person is my soulmate, a bold person walks up and realizes, wow, there's very little to connect with this person, but they're not as concerned about the outcome. So, they don't project the giant fantasy on top of it.
Steve Rush: Yeah, now all the way through this spine of Superbold, you've created this methodology called pride, which is really an acronym of a couple of activities that really help people along the journey. I'd love for us to dive into that because it was when you were describing the pride method, particularly a couple of things that will come out as we kick it through. That's definitely when I had my aha moment and I'll share with you and our listeners kind of some of those experiences too. So how did the pride method come about for you?
Fred Joyal: You know, when I first started teaching boldness, I said, I have to break this down into how I did it and how you could apply it. What would you summon to develop this boldness muscle and have the tools in any situation to know how to react? And pride means something. That word is very special because I tell people it's not being modest. It's about living a life that you're proud of. Why wouldn't you want at the end of your life, be proud of that life you lived. And that means you left it all on the mat. You took every opportunity. You took every chance. You didn't stack up the regrets. And so, let's break down the acronym. The P is preparation. R is relaxing. I is insight. D is dosage and E is everyday action.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Let's start with preparation.
Steve Rush: Good place to start.
Fred Joyal: What a lot of people don't realize is that we prepare for all sorts of things like driver's test or the bar exam or whatever it is, getting a fishing license even. But we think we don't need to prepare for social interactions and that sort of very specific behavior. They say, I don't know what I would say to somebody, it's like, that's because you haven't thought about what you would say.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Break it down to something simple. I want to meet somebody. I'm going to talk to a stranger. By the way, this is what I recommend to everybody is, talk to a stranger every day.
Steve Rush: And I do that now.
Fred Joyal: Yeah.
Steve Rush: That's one of the keys learns for me is, I don't even know how this happened, right. Because I would've said quite bold. I can walk through my village and my town head down, right. Quite comfortable in my own skin, but actually just smiling and saying hi, makes such a difference.
Fred Joyal: Yeah, and why not uplift somebody else with expecting nothing in return.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: And so, people say, they put all this pressure on themselves. Oh, I want to meet this person. So, but I can't think of anything interesting or clever or funny to say. It's like, wow. How about being nice? [Laugh]. How about just introduce yourself, take the pressure off yourself because if you come up and you're that clever, now you've set the bar high. They have to come back and be clever or just admire you. Is that what you needed? Did you need to be admired or did you just want to meet them? And when you prepare yourself to connect with somebody, it's simple, a compliment, ask a question, just say your name and say, hi, I'm Steve. I'd really like to meet you. That's you know, that's such an interesting pair of glasses you got on. I would love to know where you got them.
Steve Rush: Hmm. Yeah.
Fred Joyal: That's all you have to do. And you prepare yourself to do that. Now, you move on through life and say, okay, I'm going to look for a promotion. I need to prepare how I'm going to have that interaction with my boss. I'm going to rehearse that. I'm going to know what I want to say. I'm going to prepare my speech to go raise money from these investors. You're not going to walk in there and say, oh, I know my business really well. I have watched so many entrepreneurs, grossly unprepared to walk into investor meetings. And they think because they know their business so well, they can talk about it really well. Instead of preparing a methodical laying out of their business. Their biggest problem is, they know too much about their business.
Steve Rush: Hmm.
Fred Joyal: You say, what does it do? And tell me what it does. I actually just did this weekend. I said, tell me what your business does in one sentence, this woman talked for five minutes.
Steve Rush: [Laugh].
Fred Joyal: I went like, that was a long sentence.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: And I'm not sure what you do, because you gave me so much detail that I missed the bullet.
Steve Rush: That's right.
Fred Joyal: And, so, preparation is critical in any sort of interaction. And, once you get good at it, here's really important fact. Preparation is the foundation for spontaneity.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: You can be spontaneous if you've got the backup. If you know what you could say, I've walked up to plenty of people knowing I'm just going to say hi, I'm Fred, nice to meet you. And in the moment, I noticed they have amazing eyes or something like that, or an interesting piece of jewelry or they're reading an interesting book, whatever it is. And now I can talk about that.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: But I got my backup and it's the same thing on stage, you know?
Steve Rush: So, relaxation and insight are they correlated?
Fred Joyal: Yes, because the part of relaxing is understanding that you can control your state. And a lot of people don't realize that you can control it just by breathing. Now I go into detail in how you do this. But if you check your physiology, because we tense up in certain situations. And if you just relax your body, before I walk on stage, I just shake off any excess tension in my body. And I take three deep breaths. Breathing will relax you. And there's more techniques that I talk about, but you can relax yourself, but it doesn't happen when somebody says, why don't you just relax? That just makes you more nervous.
Steve Rush: It does.
Fred Joyal: Because it’s like, oh I didn't realize I looked nervous. That makes me more nervous. But once you relax yourself, it reverses the process and you say, oh, I can control my state. And you know, as a public speaker, you turn that into energy. You're not like so relaxed that you're like a sloth. You are just, you've taken all that anxiety and turned it into energy. So now you're bringing your full self to the stage. So that's the key is, is learning the simple ways that you can relax yourself. And some of the ways you relax yourself are the insights. Bold people have key insights. The number one thing is, people are not thinking about you anywhere near as much as you think they are.
Steve Rush: [Laugh] yeah.
Fred Joyal: Who are they thinking about?
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Themselves, right. They'll think about you for about four seconds before they rotate back to themselves. But we think twenty years later, they're still thinking about that embarrassing moment that we had with them. And if you get to talk to them about it, they say, I have no recollection of that. And you go, no, really, I was so humiliating for me. And I was like, it's been nagging at me for decades. And you say, why would you do that? And so, this is what bold people do is, they have a tiny, tiny group of people whose opinions really matter to them and everybody else's, they don't, they say other people's opinions of me are none of my business. And they act that way.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: It's very powerful.
Steve Rush: It is, isn't it? Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Now your next one, I've got to tell you, was probably more aha moments thinking about dosage and how I behaved and how I continued to behave than any of the other things in the book, because this is where you either overplay for something or underplay it and just don't get it right. Tell us about what dosage means for you and how we could use it?
Fred Joyal: It means controlling the intensity of the experience as you build your boldness muscle. And it's the same principle as exercising. If you were trying to get in shape, you wouldn't start by trying to bench press three hundred pounds. Because the bar's going to fall on you. And basically, decapitate you, you would start with lighter weights. This is how you build your boldness muscle is, you do simple things that build that strength to interact with people. Start by smiling at people, talk to a stranger every day, one or two sentences. What people do is, they overload themselves. They say, you know, I got to stop being shy. I'm going to go to a party and meet people and I'm going to meet five people and they don't meet one person because they've made it too challenging for themselves. Say, I'm going to go to this party and I'm going to say hi to three people.
I'm going to introduce myself to one person. You control that dosage so that you don't retreat back into your shell. And what happens is, you gradually expand your comfort zone wider and wider and wider. And you look back at yourself and if you do it the way I lay out in the book, you look back at yourself three months ago and you say, wow, that was really challenging. Now, it's nothing. Anybody in the coffee line, I'll walk right up and talk to them, and I'll think of something to say. And before I know it, we're engaged in the conversation.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Steve Rush: And you'll say that was impossible for me. And you know why? Because you built up gradually, people do these things, they put themselves in situations where it's so intense. There's so much at risk that when it fails, they're tormented by it. Instead of, you know, if you want to meet your soulmate, start meeting everybody so that when you actually meet your soulmate, you can talk like a normal person and have a normal interaction, not overload the whole conversation. And you also learned that maybe who your soulmate might actually be or not be, don't not be prepared by leaping into a situation that's way more than you can handle. If you going to do public speaking, don't start with an audience of four hundred people. You're going to crumble. You're going to be tongue tied. You're going to sweat bullets. And you'll barely get through your presentation.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Start with five.
Steve Rush: And when I reflect back on the things that I've done really well, it's probably because I got my dosage right. Where I've got it really wrong is because I've usually got way too much going on and I've been overconfident because I think that's the right thing. Or I've been over bullish trying to make a sale. And that's definitely been a bit of a moment for me. My mom and dad would've probably told me as I was growing up, don't run before you can walk, which used to frustrate the hell out of me because I wanted to run.
Fred Joyal: Yes.
Steve Rush: But if somebody described it as just get the dosage, right. You know, lift the right amount of weights before you do your three hundred pound bench press as an example, you can start to think that actually we all have to find the right level of dosage. Otherwise, you will never be confident enough or feel confident enough to be more bold.
Fred Joyal: And it's a very personal thing. You have to decide what dosage is right for you. Everybody's developing their confidence and boldness from a different starting point. So don't compare yourself to somebody else and say, well, this person, they just walk through the party, and they meet everybody they want to, I want to be that. So, I'm going to start doing that.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: You are where you are and you're going to work your way up from there. You'll can get as far as you want to go, but it's a steady, upward climb. It is not serious of quantum leaps.
Steve Rush: Indeed. It is. Yeah. So, when I look back on my career, I think I've actually forgotten to be bold. I've got up the habit of being bold and what you've allowed me to rethink and reframe is your Ian pride, which is everyday actions. Recreating those simple habits to become more bold. Tell us a little bit about what that means?
Fred Joyal: Yeah, and this is really a life skill is to know that if you want to accomplish something, if you want to achieve something, whether it's personal growth or building a business or writing a novel or whatever, or learning an instrument, work at it every day. Even if it's for five minutes. I learned this from someone who was talking about how they wrote a book and they said, I had a requirement that I was going to write one sentence of that book every day, no matter what. And they said, you know, what happened is, sometimes I'd write a sentence and I'd let myself off the hook because I was tired or whatever, but I always wrote a sentence and then sometimes I'd write a paragraph. Sometimes I write a page or two pages. I'd hit a sweet spot in a way I'd go.
But the fact that, they got to it every day tells your brain, this is who I am. And if you don't, if you do it on the weekends or you do it, when you feel like it, you're a dabbler and your brain say, oh, we're a dildock, we're a dabbler. This isn't important to us. And I ask people to say, well, I write when I really get in the head space, really feel like it. I said, wow, do you only exercise when you feel like it? Because that would only be like twice a year for me.
Steve Rush: Exactly right, and me.
Fred Joyal: [laugh], you know? And so, and the other thing about setting a goal to do it every day is you don't have to decide to do it or not. It's like brushing your teeth. You're going to do it. It's just when, and you'll get to that point where you say, oh my gosh, it's like seven o'clock at night. I haven't talked to a stranger. I'm going to go to the grocery store.
Steve Rush: [Laugh] Yeah.
Fred Joyal: You know, I'm going to talk to somebody in the produce department just because it's like, I can't go to bed without doing that. Two things happen. The first thing is the brain said, we are a person who meets people comfortably. We know how to behave boldly. The other thing that happens is, just like controlling the dosage. It aggregates. Everything that you work at every day, no matter how little, aggregates. You want to learn a language, learn three words a day. At the end of the year, you know, a thousand words, that’s fifteen words, in any language, you can have a conversation with anybody.
Steve Rush: Yeah. It's powerful stuff, isn't it?
Fred Joyal: So, it aggregates, it builds gradually and your dreams decay. Not because they're so hard, it's because you don't get to them.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: You think you will get to them. I can get to that next year. And you and I have both lived long enough to know how fast the decade goes by at this point.
Steve Rush: Totally.
Fred Joyal: Yeah, and that's a harsh, harsh lesson
Steve Rush: Indeed. So, we are going to give our listeners an opportunity to find out how they can get hold of some tools that you got on your website that will help people with some of these activities. But before we do that, we are going to just flip the lens a little bit. This is where we hack into your leadership brain. And I'm super looking forward to this because you have such an enormous back catalog of experiences to draw from Fred. But we're going to ask you to dive into your top three leadership hacks, there your top three tips, tools or ideas, what would they be?
Fred Joyal: My favorite one that I tell everybody. And it's because I have to tell myself every day too, is, one word, start, just start something. It's amazing how the hardest thing for human beings to do is to start and then you get through it. Whether it's working out, I've begun more workouts by saying, look, I'm just going to do some pushups. Because I don't have any time and I don't feel like it, but I just drop the floor and I do them. What happens next? I do some sit ups and then before you know it, I'm saying, I might as well go for a run or a bike ride, but I started. But what we do is, we do everything but start and we'll burn two hours sometimes. I was reading that the who wrote the Alchemist, I'm forgetting, Coelho is his last name.
I'm forgetting his first name. But he was saying, I do everything possible in the house before I start writing [laugh] he said, I will clean everything. I'll sharpen pencils. I'll walk the dog; I'll take two showers. He said, it's like, finally, I'll sit down, and I'll start. We all do it. We torment ourselves. So that thing, if you just start to say, I'm just going to start right now, sit down, do it. And all of a sudden, where you go, whatever it is.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: The other big hack for me is, to celebrate failure as a step up to say, it's a two-stage process. You can feel terrible about it for ten minutes, twenty minutes, thirty minutes, whatever it takes. And then now you're going to say, okay, what's in this for me? How do I mine this for information? You allow yourself the emotional reaction, but you don't stay attached to it for the rest of the month of the year or forever. You say, all right, there it is. I had the emotional outburst for what happened. What's in this for me? There's a term in Aikido where it's called embrace the hit as a gift. And the more I've done that in life, the more I've said, wow, this is terrible. What's in it for me? And then it turns into something really interesting, and I've lost a million dollars on stuff. It was expensive tuition, but I learned from it, and I turned it into a multiple of learning from that.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: So that's very powerful. And then the other hack is to get really good at asking for help, try to figure out who can help you. It keeps you from being a micromanager or a soloist because collaboration is amazingly powerful. I am a much better speaker because I get feedback all the time on it. I have a personal coach that talks to me every week and it's painful sometimes because he ends every session with an action plan. Like, what are you going to do? Like, I'm doing a Superbold workshop. And I've been wanting to do it since I put the book out. And so, he finally said to me, so what's the boldest thing you could be doing, which of course is a very painful challenge. He knows exactly how to come at me. And I said, well, that would be the workshop. He said, okay, how long would it take you to put a workshop together? I said, yeah, probably about 90 days. He said, all right. So, what's the date? Okay, June 24th, June 25th. He said, all right, put it on the calendar.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: That's what I'm doing. I'm aiming for that date. I have to make it happen. Because I booked the rooms. This is another hack. Let the door lock behind you. Don't give yourself a way out. So, you have to figure out what to do.
Steve Rush: Yeah, love that.
Fred Joyal: They call it, you know, burning the boats in the Harbor or whatever. But it's like, if you say, well, if this doesn't work out, I can always just do this. The entrepreneurs, I know that succeeded. They get in so deep. They couldn't get out. Tony Hsieh was in so deep with his money. He had to make Zappos work.
Steve Rush: Very true.
Fred Joyal: I get in so deep with 800 Dentists, I had to make it work. I owed my family money. I owed $200,000 in media that I had to figure out how to pay. You know, I had a personal guarantee on the rent. It was like, I had three doors locked behind me.
Steve Rush: Mm.
Fred Joyal: My partner and I had to figure it out.
Steve Rush: Focuses the attention. Doesn't it. That's for sure.
Fred Joyal: Yeah.
Steve Rush: So next part of the show, we call it Hack to Attack. So, this is typically where something in your life or work has not worked out at all well, maybe even screwed up and been catastrophic, but as a result of it, that experience is now serving you really well in your life or work. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Fred Joyal: A lot of people fall for this, and I certainly have, which is the whole sunk cost thing. Where you say, I've got so much into this. I have to keep putting money into it. Instead of cutting it losses, saying, look, take the pain now, because it's just going to get bigger. And you know, sometimes it's about money, sometimes you've put so much money into something. You've bought this piece of technology and you're trying to make it work. And it's the wrong technology, [laugh] it doesn't fit or it's too old or you know, whatever, and you just have to sell it or park it and get the right technology or it's the right person versus the wrong person. Everybody I know in business fires, that person that they know they need to get rid of months after they know they need to get rid of them.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: You got to sunk cost in that person. You say, I spent so much time and money training them. I think I can make them better, you can't.
Steve Rush: [Laugh] That's very true.
Fred Joyal: Abandon the sunk costs. So that's, been, you know, just applying that to money and things that I've put time and money into and people.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: It's benefited me so much now because, I got so many scars from it.
Steve Rush: Yeah, the last thing I want to explore with you is, you are now twenty-one years old, your toe to toe with Fred and you get a chance to give him some words of wisdom. What would it be?
Fred Joyal: Nothing bad happens unless you decide to label it that way.
Steve Rush: Nice.
Fred Joyal: And all these things you're afraid of are things you really want to do, so do them.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Be willing to be afraid and do them and use the fear as a directional signal for yourself.
Steve Rush: And of course, fear is one of the very reasons why we avoid boldness in the first place.
Fred Joyal: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Fred Joyal: Because we are incredibly good at calculating the worst-case scenario in our heads and the voice in our head loves to come up with all of these things, but really terrible at calculating the odds of it actually happening.
Steve Rush: Yeah, very true.
Fred Joyal: You know, smiling at 10 people a day, somebody's not going to smile back, but a really shy person said, nobody's going to smile back, but until you do it and you realize nine out of ten people smile back. The tenth person, who knows why. It could be the worst day of their life; they could have bad teeth. When you learn not to take it on, that's a really powerful thing. I'd say that to Fred too. You don't have to take any of this stuff on. Just keep moving. We're all flawed human beings working our way through life. Billionaires and homeless people. We're all in a struggle. Nobody is perfect. And trying to be perfect before you leave the house is a failed strategy.
Steve Rush: So, in terms of dosage, I would love to have more of a dose of Fred, but we're coming to the top of the show. What I would love to do though, Fred is to let our listeners know how they can get hold of some of the tools you talked about. Maybe get a copy of Superbold and learn a little bit more about the work that you do beyond what we've talked about today?
Fred Joyal: Yeah, easiest place is to go to fredjoyal.com. You can download the first chapter of the book there. You can buy the book on Amazon, it's in hard cover and Kindle and audible, and it's me reading it. And if you do the digital version of it, you can go to fredjoyal.com and download the exercises because there's a whole bunch of exercises. You're going to want a physical copy of them. So, there's a PDF of them in the website. You can also see a couple of boldness lectures that I've done there. And if you're in LA or if you're willing to fly in. The first workshop is going to be June 24th and 25th in Santa Monica. And then I'll going to be doing them around the country and who knows? I might have to go to London, you know, I'll, do it.
Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly right. So, Fred, I just wanted to say thanks ever so much. I knew the first time I met you, that there was a reason I've met you. Having now read your book and you've been on the show. You have definitely shone a light on the lack of boldness I didn't even know I had and helped me reinforce some great behavior. So, I just want to say personally, thank you, but also thank you for being part of our community on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Fred Joyal: Thank you. It's been a real pleasure. I hope everyone benefits.
Closing
Steve Rush: I want to sign off by saying thank you to you for joining us on the show too. We recognize without you, there is no show. So please continue to share, subscribe, and like, and continue to get in touch with us with the great new stories that we share every week. And so that we can continue to bring you great stories. Please make sure you give us a five-star review where you can and share this podcast with your friends, your teams, and communities. You want to find us on social media. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter @leadershiphacker, Leadership Hacker on YouTube and on Instagram, the_leadership_hacker and if that wasn’t enough, you can also find us on our website leadership-hacker.com. Tune into next episode to find out what great hacks and stories are coming your way. That's me signing off, I'm Steve Rush, and I've been your Leadership Hacker.
Matthew Cox is the CEO and Founder of the Never Give Up Foundation, he’s a coach, speaker and Co-author of the book, The Courage to Learn Differently. In this remarkable conversation learn about:
Join our Tribe at https://leadership-hacker.com
Music: " Upbeat Party " by Scott Holmes courtesy of the Free Music Archive FMA
Transcript: Thanks to Jermaine Pinto at JRP Transcribing for being our Partner. Contact Jermaine via LinkedIn or via his site JRP Transcribing Services
Find out more about Matthew below:
Matthew on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-cox-64228256/
Matthew on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MatthewLCox1
Matthew on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matthewlelandcox/
Matthew’s Website: http://www.matthewlelandcox.com/
Full Transcript Below
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Steve Rush: Some call me Steve, dad, husband, or friend. Others might call me boss, coach, or mentor. Today you can call me The Leadership Hacker.
Thanks for listening in. I really appreciate it. My job as The Leadership Hacker is to hack into the minds, experiences, habits and learning of great leaders, C-Suite executives, authors, and development experts so that I can assist you developing your understanding and awareness of leadership. I am Steve Rush, and I am your host today. I am the author of Leadership Cake. I am a transformation consultant and leadership coach. I cannot wait to start sharing all things leadership with you
Our special guest on today shows Matthew Cox. Matthew was diagnosed with a learning disability in high school where he was told he would never attend college and he wouldn't amount to anything. However, Matthew was an incredibly successful businessman. He's the co-founder of the Never Give Up Behavioral Services and Never Give Up Foundation. But before we get a chance to speak with Matthew, it's The Leadership Hacker News.
The Leadership Hacker News
Steve Rush: For any organization to be successful. It must find a way to develop talent. It isn't always possible to hire great talent in leadership, particularly from outside the organization. So being able to develop leaders within the organization is a key success factor and will help the company grow and meet future needs. I'm going to share with you four principles that really help drive leadership development and leadership potential for 2022. The first principle is taking ownership. This is about being fully responsible for your leadership team and their personal development in that journey. And it's different from being in charge. Taking ownership is simply about empowering people around you, but being fully responsible, knowing that it's actually a shared responsibility, great leaders make it their job to keep pushing things forward. They didn't sit back and wait for tasks to be given to them. They search for new ways to improve.
That includes developing them and their teams. Learning through mistakes and continually being brave enough to make them. When everyone takes ownership, people are willing to do what's needed without finding ways to skirt responsibility. By taking ownership, this is also creates consistency and consistency creates routines, habits and patterns that others can also learn from rather than just one off activities. Principle two, use next level thinking. How do you know if you did something right? Most people look at the task. Did you accomplish it or not? Did you do what you said you were going to do or not? Well for leadership, we need to shift our thinking. Each task is important, and we consistently need to measure our productivity versus key performance. But next level leadership requires a shift in a perspective, helping people move away from linear thinking is really important. Linear thinking follows quick snap decisions without much analysis and a usually short term.
Instead, we need to think systems thinking, see the bigger picture. Interconnection between the various parts of a system. In doing so, it gives us the ability to have much broader perspectives and allow better decision making. And if we think of systems thinking as the full business system, not individual parts, it gives us the ability, much deeper, more meaningful decision-making. Principle three, respect time, your time and others. There is an old adage of time management. And if anybody's ever worked with me, you'll know that it's a myth and I encourage you to think of it that way. You can't manage time. You can only manage you. The hack here is I want you to think about reframing time management to prioritization. And if you're able to look at tasks and compare them in terms of their urgent and important status, what you need to tackle first, that creates space providing you, create the space for recovery and wellbeing in your plan, create a model of the week that you want to see happen and feature into that model time for you and for others, but also encourage others to do the same, because by respecting others' time, you'll be able to be more efficient.
You also need to micromanage and principle for focus on progress. Not perfection. Nobody is perfect and chasing for perfection means we forgo, experimenting or testing things because we don't want to screw up. You may be familiar with the terminology trial and error. By definition, there mean there will be error and that's okay. Doing so means continuous improvement. Create the space for people to feel psychologically safe so they can experiment. That means that they've learned it removes the need for criticism. The key learning here is that every time you win a step forward, it's a step of progress towards a goal, but not perfection. Of course, there are more than four principles that are going to keep us well for 2022. When we start thinking about our leadership development and I'd encourage you just to focus on what's working for you but take a step forward. Not a step back. That's been The Leadership Hacker News. Let's dive into the show.
Start of Podcast
Steve Rush: Our special guest on today's show is Matthew Cox. He's a CEO and founder of Never Give Up Foundation. He's a coach, speaker and the co-author of the book. The Courage to Learn Differently. Matt's story is even more remarkable as whilst he's an entrepreneur having sold multimillion dollar businesses in the past. He's also learning disabled. Matthew, welcome to the show.
Matthew Cox: Thank you. Well, thank you, Steve. Appreciate it.
Steve Rush: So right off the bat Matt, when you hear the word learning disabled, what does that really mean?
Matthew Cox: Well, it can go two different ways. Learning disabled is a learning disability or intellectual disability versus the physical. So, when somebody's learning disabled, they struggle either with some sort of element like dyslexia, illiteracy or something that impairs them to not learn the way what's called normal society [Laugh]
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: So, it's been based on if you can't read or write, if you can't do something a certain way, you're a learning disabled. If that makes sense.
Steve Rush: It's a label that most folk aren't particularly comfortable with, but you seem to have grabbed hold of this and created it as part of your identity. I'm keen to just learn a little bit about how that came about?
Matthew Cox: Yeah, it wasn't always tough or easy. Growing up, it was trying to get, as you hear that saying, getting comfortable in your own skin. And so, throughout my youth I struggled with it like anybody. I didn't know why I wasn't able to keep up with all the other kids in the classroom. Now, if I was on the soccer field, that was another thing. I was pretty good at that. But when it came to the classroom, I hated tests. English was like a foreign language to me. So, it was tough that way. Until I got into my thirties, I finally got comfortable with it. But growing up from an adolescent to about then, it was always trying to hide things, was not comfortable. And then it just clicked one day. I just finally realized through some personal work, having a coach and having mentors, having good people around me, I finally just realized, it doesn't define who I am, and the definition of learning and art today is like reading and writings. It's not something that's been around forever. It's something we created as a society and we make decisions on scoring our kids, scoring our people around us that if they do X, then they're intelligent. So, it wasn't telling my thirties, Steve, that I finally just kind of got comfortable with it with a mentor that kind of guided me through it. And then from there on it's just been, it's, you kind of miss out, if you don't get to know me. So, when I do presentations, I don't stress anymore if I spell wrong on the board.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: I've kind of embraced it, which is freedom in its own self.
Steve Rush: So, I'm not sure many listeners actually know this either. Actually, I'm dyslexic. And I've also written a book. Albeit it, was the best couple of thousand dollars I'd ever spent hiring an editor [laugh] to rewrite my book. I'm not sure that she was anticipating the amount of work and rework that was going to be required. But I too had found that actually, stood in front of a flip chart having to write up people's notes. I was able to get away with it by just squiggling on the board and people just, not even. So, if I just got a little word blind, which often still happens by the way, I can get away with it. As long as you were confident enough, did you actually find any of that play out for you?
Matthew Cox: Oh, all the time. I have code, but before I was so forward about it, I used to try to just say, oh, I'm just going to abbreviate it or put a code up here for you.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And I kind of get around it that way until. Now when I do a presentation, I tell my story.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And I say, look, if you're a spelling Nazi in the audience, you're going to have fun. It's going to drive you crazy today. I wish you well.
Steve Rush: Exactly, I like that.
Matthew Cox: And so, I just make humor of it.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And usually when you're vulnerable and you make that humor, people embrace it and I've never had an issue with it since then.
Steve Rush: And often, it is about that disclosure that makes it safe, isn't it?
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Finding this out and this level of comfort in your late thirties is really quite interesting because up until this point, you've gone through quite a lot of different twists and turns in your career and.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: You've gone through some personal tragedies, and you've come out the other end and been a successful businessman. I'd love for you to just share a little bit of the backstory.
Matthew Cox: Yeah. So, you know, through all that fun time growing up, I learned early on, I was an entrepreneur, I'll start there, and I think it was after we lost my father when I was younger. I think I was ten at that time. And I had seven other siblings at the house. So, my mom raised us all. So, I started finding ways to make money. Because after that loss, we were struggling financially, and my mom did her best. And I remember my first business was a yard care business. I was mowing lawns for neighbors. And then I just kept building it and took it to the extreme and by buying trailers and buying a truck and buying more equipment. And so, at seventeen, I realized the power of entrepreneur. I was making four thousand U.S. dollars a month as a seventeen-year-old, still in school.
And I was going, wait, there's something to this. And it wasn't until I started listening to Stephen Covey, kind of switching that mindset. And then that's when my business bug kind of just went from there. And then I started several other businesses after that and had a few failures in there, like any entrepreneur. And then when I was in my twenties, I was introduced to mental health. What I mean by that is, helping kids in foster care, helping kids at risk. Because I was one of those kids growing up where, when we lost a father, I struggled, I started hanging out with wrong crowds. And I talked about this in my book. Just the journey I went through because it was easier to get accepted to the wrong crowds when you're struggling with self-esteem as a LD Kid and growing up. So, in those twenties, I learned that I could influence kids on the soccer field and then somebody introduced me to foster care. And that's when I started my journey down that whole road. And I've been in that field since, and I'm 44 now. So, it's been a long journey.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: But it's been really, really rewarding because I've found that was my gift. And I think in any situation, Steve, a lot of entrepreneurs when they find their sweet spot, just like a basketball or a professional star or sports person, they always told me when I would work with them, coaching them and stuff they'd say. There's a sweet spot when you're playing your game. And I think as an entrepreneur, you have to find that. And in my life, I found it and it was helping people.
Steve Rush: That sweet spot often referred to as purpose.
Matthew Cox: There you go, purpose.
Steve Rush: It's now played full round, isn't it for you? And the Never Give Up Foundation that you now run is focused entirely on giving people the opportunity to grow. Tell us a little bit about the work you do?
Matthew Cox: Yeah. So now currently what happened is, from the foster care I moved in 2009, I moved to Vegas, and I started an outpatient company, which that means, outpatient in the mental health world is, people come in for therapy or medication management. And we serviced four to all the way up to ninety or a hundred or on, so there is no age gap from the limit. Me and my wife started that in 2012. Then in 2016, my brother approached me and says, hey, let's start an inpatient and for adolescence. So, we started that in 2016, we were the first one in Nevada. So, we were the first ones to do this type of work or inpatient. It's called a psychiatric adolescent facility. And it's for residential where they stay nine months to a year within the facility where all services are under one roof.
And then they transition back into the community. Currently that facility has hundred and forty-four beds, and it serves adolescents from eight to seventeen. And then we have Sober Living Company that we started right after that. And the Sober Living serves adults, all ages and they stay there while they do treatment. When we did something unique with that sober living, we actually don't charge rent for them. We pay the rent and then we provide services around that. So, it's kind of a unique model that we run there. And so that's kind of been the journey for the [laugh] since 2009 to now. When I came into the state of Nevada and then we're now expanding into other states, we're buying other facilities around the U.S., and it's been a pretty crazy journey, but I've enjoyed every step. It's a very needed, especially after the pandemic, it's got very busy with mental health.
Steve Rush: Indeed. And I guess globally now. The whole issue is magnified because of the pandemic.
Matthew Cox: Globally, yes.
Steve Rush: And from your perspective, how have you seen the patients and associates you work with change because of that?
Matthew Cox: Oh, wow. We've seen, I'll start with just the adolescence. I mean the acuity level from when it was prior to the pandemic is a lot worse. When I say acuity, kids are trying to harm themselves. Eight-year-olds are trying to drown themselves in pools. Just the cases I see or hear. It's got a lot worse and then adults and colleagues, the anxiety and stress level has went off the charts, just the what ifs or the unknown. So, in the adult’s people, are just worried about the economy and what's going on.
Steve Rush: And neurologically, of course, we're built to look for certainty and pattern and comfort and routine, and the pandemic's throwing that up in the air, for many people, right?
Matthew Cox: Yeah, and I think it's that sense of reality or that purpose, right?
Steve Rush: Mm.
Steve Rush: So, like you said, that reality or that normal mundane everyday thing we do, just got disrupted. And so, in the world of psychology, it's that, hey, my story or my baseline. And that's where a lot of people, when I've coached a lot of my professionals or business owners, a lot of them are worried about what's going to happen to the economy. Am I going to have a business? And I think half the time our session is, in my high performers, I say, hey, you can't control that. What can you control? And you got to live today, not tomorrow, not five days. And so, a lot of people are doing too much, living way ahead. And that's when it causes a lot of mental health issues when we're thinking too much or too far ahead.
Steve Rush: It's the traditional power of now, isn't it?
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: You can only control the moment you're in, rather than the one that's gone and the one that's ahead of you.
Matthew Cox: Correct.
Steve Rush: But that takes courage to think differently, which is exactly what the book talks to, of course.
Matthew Cox: So, we create it in our outlines. The courage to learn differently was designed for kiddos or parents that have kids with learning disabilities. And so, when we went to start writing in it and Steve, like you said earlier, my coauthor bless her hearts, Erica Walkingstick. She's, the coauthor of True Colors. She's she wrote a book on the basis of temperament; her husband was the founder of True Colors. And it was founded in 1937. And it's a temperament theory using four colors to define your personality.
Steve Rush: Mm-Hmm.
Matthew Cox: It's based on Myers Briggs, all those different ones. They're all kind of, every one of them, yeah.
Steve Rush: Similar to any of the jungian personality types you might see, right?
Matthew Cox: Pretty much. And it's pretty accurate. I've been using it for a long time. So, what we did is, we took it, and we developed this book around that concept of temperament theory and developed it to where the temperament theory helps us understand how these kiddos or parents needing to understand how the kids learn. So, for me, I'm a high blue orange. So, a blue is very emotional. Orange is a risk taker. And so, knowing that as a learning disability, if you have a kid with an LD and you know, their personality types, you know one, how to one teach them or approach them, and it works in as adults. And so, we use this within our business and it's really good just around the book. So that's why I've I started, I wrote this book because I wanted a tool and it's actually a workbook for teachers, special ed teachers within any school district. It doesn't matter if you're whatever, wherever you're at, it doesn't matter what part of the country or world you're in. This will apply to whatever it is with a kid with an LD, or if you're a parent or a special ed teacher or a teacher. Because a lot of times Steve, in the mainstream classroom, most special or most mainstream class teachers, don't get a lot of training to deal with us, ADD kids or us dyslexic kids.
Steve Rush: That's very true. Very true.
Matthew Cox: Because when we're younger, we're a little more frustrated because we're not seeing things. Now, the books, all designed around my story of my life, growing up with it. So, you get a little bit of different struggles. Then me and Erica do what's called a brainstorming session and we kind of do a dialogue back and forth and she didn't know how much work it was going to be either Steve, when she was helping me write. Luckily, she's a great writer. So, she did a lot of the ghost writing and so it's been a great journey and we're excited. It's going to hit the stores here soon, in all online stores as well.
Steve Rush: What I particularly love about it, having had a sneak preview is, it is really super practical.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Matthew Cox: And whether you are a kid or whether you are a parent or teacher, like you said, it just gives you a bit more visibility of the treatment strategies, the approaches you might want to take in order to get the best out of people. And that what I particularly love about it.
Matthew Cox: Yeah. And that's what I was shooting for. I wanted to make it simple but have some really strong principles in there. So, it's an easy read, but you can follow the storyline really easy.
Steve Rush: So, what's the reason it does take courage to think differently?
Matthew Cox: I think the courage to think differently or learn differently is, it took me courage to rethink or learn different because I don't learn the same way as mainstream education teaches and something you got to think is, kids like us or adults like us. We don't learn that way. School's designed for a certain type of personality. It's designed for the gold green kid. And so, for us, orange, blue kids or kids that struggle, we have a tendency not to really form in school. And so, school's tough for us. And so that's why we either really do well in sports or we do well in something that's more hands on. I think that's why it takes courage because when I was in school, I just, wasn't never comfortable unless I was on the soccer field. If that makes sense.
Matthew Cox: Yeah, it does. So, I'm blessed with having four children all come with a completely different set of skills, behaviors, and attitudes and where I see the courage is the courage and the conviction that if you're not as academic, then it's almost the courage to hold on, have that conviction that you will find your sweet spot. It will be there for you, but it's holding onto it without getting stressed and caught up in the moment of not having the best grades and not having, you know, some of the other things that other kids may have.
Matthew Cox: Yeah. And I learned that throughout my high school, but also my college career. Because I flunked out college about seven times. When I first went to my basics here in the states, you know, that bachelor's degree or the associates.
Steve Rush: Yep.
Matthew Cox: The associates was a nightmare. I mean I couldn't get past math and [laugh] I remember going to the math department and crying to the head of the department after I fell so many times, I'm like, please don't fail me [Laugh] and what I did do is I learned how to shop teachers. So, I think what my disabilities taught me as, is to be creative and to be a problem solver. So, in my business, all my executives call me when they need something solved in a matter of minutes. That's my sweet spot. I've learned that from this, it created a superpower. So, I'm embraced and I'm grateful. I think it was God's gift of keeping me humble.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And also giving me the directions because I don't use logic. I go, okay, that's a bummer. We're there. What do we do next? So, I immediately always go into it. So, I remember when I was trying to solve the math one, I immediately went in and started interviewing every teacher. And I finally found Mr. Bowler. He was a lawyer. He only taught on summers and the summers in the states are very short.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: That's only a few months versus a whole semester. And I said, I'm going to take your class and the only class I'm going to do. And I sat down with him and told him, and he helped me through, and I got a C minus, and I said, piece out, thank you so much.
Steve Rush: That'll do, yeah, it's a pass, right.
Matthew Cox: But I learned you had to shop. We can either be victims our circumstance or we can solve it and move on. So that's one of the lessons I learned in that.
Steve Rush: Emotional intelligence is a core foundation that you see in many entrepreneurs. And actually, I did the research for my book and looked at what the key themes were between entrepreneurs versus, you know, some very good successful businesspeople who were less entrepreneurial. And ironically, there are more entrepreneurs who have learning disabilities than don't. And I found that really quiet a remarkable, statistic actually.
Matthew Cox: Yeah. Sir Branson. I always forget his first name.
Steve Rush: Richard Branson?
Matthew Cox: Richard.
Steve Rush: Yep.
Matthew Cox: He's highly ADHD. Steve Jobs,
Steve Rush: Job source. He was, yeah.
Matthew Cox: He was kind of more autistic or somewhere up there. He was off the chart somewhere. And then you have Microsoft guy, Bill Gates. He has something going on there and I think it engages certain types of the brain. I remember going into my master's degree. I had to do some testing and to get accommodations for the school because you know, having a learning disability, you can get accommodations throughout your schooling. And the guy that was doing it, he was a good friend, but he was also a psychiatrist or psychologist. His previous career. He worked for the CIA. And so, he used to go in and try to get people to go to our side. That's the kind of psychology he did. He would profile the individuals. And so, when he was doing my testing, he did the normal IQ test. He says, Matt, you're 109 as an IQ. You're normal. He said, but he went on and did some other testing. I don't know what it was called. He said, but your IQs around 160, 165.
Steve Rush: Blind me, that's pretty high.
Matthew Cox: And it’s because of the effort you put in. And he said, most people that have high IQ don't go past because there because they don't put in any more effort. It comes easy for them.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: He said, you have to work at it. And it was an interesting insight. I remember that conversation with him. He's a great man. He's passed on since then, but it was just really interesting because his career and where he'd been, and all the trials and we talked for a while. I think that's why you see all these entrepreneurs, like we're talking about Steve, that's why they're so off the charts because they put more effort. Like Elon Musk. A lot of people think he's an odd duck, but he just has a lot going on. He's firing off. If you hear his memoirs, he talks about when he is a little kid, he just was having ideas from a little kid.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And that's just, I think they're gifts. And these individuals just finally kind of click in and use them.
Steve Rush: And thanks to the work that you and others like you, Matt are doing by the way that are bringing this to the front of our consciousness, because there is no direct path to success.
Matthew Cox: No, there isn't.
Steve Rush: It's about getting the right people to do the right things at the right time. And recognizing that some people are just really good at school.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: And others are really good at life. And actually, you know, never the twin you’ll meet sometimes.
Matthew Cox: No, and I have a lot of doctor friends. I have a lot of lawyer friends, and they're good at it. And like even my wife is very good at school. She was a nurse but there's a balance there because she's good at what she's good at. And I'm good at what, and it's a good partnership just like in partnerships like my brother, and I are business partners as well. And I think I shared with you that when we were talking prior is that we have a joke. I'm Walt Disney, he's Roy.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And he tells you, and I liked what you said, you know, business, a lot of entrepreneurs, if they're honest, you fall into success. One day you wake up and you're like, wow, we made it [laugh].
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: Because you fumble and you make mistakes and there's a lot of messiness to get to where the end result is, right?
Steve Rush: Absolutely. And the opposite is also true.
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Academics tend to stay in academia.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: Because that's what makes them good. And that's what makes them successful. They've got the ability to learn, research, regurgitate, apply, learn, and so on.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: And you just don't see that in entrepreneurs because they're in the moment. They're attaching their energy to the emotions that are presented for them and the opportunities that come along for them.
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: And that's the dichotomy perhaps those two genres, right?
Matthew Cox: Oh, it is. My brother's very academic. He has the gift of entrepreneur, but I mean, he can sit down and read anything and understand it after he reads it. I'm the visionary that has twenty ideas and only three are good, right?
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: But I'm constantly looking at the trends of the market. I'm constantly looking at things that most people don't see, it's like the matrix, right.
Steve Rush: [Laugh] exactly.
Matthew Cox: I see it and I'm like, hey, this is what's going to happen. And then he's like, okay, because he is very laser focused. And he has to move from one thing to another. I can kind of juggle five things at once. So, it's good to have that visionary and integrator. Because if you have that, if you have a visionary in what you're doing and then an integrator to help bring it down to the ground, I think that's where our success took off. Because when we put that combination in, it was game over.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: But before then when you have too many visionaries, if the visionary is doing everything, it's a nightmare for the company. Because the visionary is all over the place, right?
Steve Rush: Yeah, exactly right.
Matthew Cox: Yeah. Because we started, but we need the help and that's what I found as an entrepreneur, you got to put good people around you.
Steve Rush: Yeah. And it's having the emotional awareness to recognize that too, from my experience having worked, coached and spent time with some superb entrepreneurs, is that emotional trigger if you like is very acute.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: They know their strengths, but they also very much know their weaknesses.
Matthew Cox: Yeah, and it takes them a little bit to figure that out after so many failures.
Steve Rush: Yes, indeed.
Matthew Cox: I'm not a CEO, I'll never be a CEO. I'm just not a CEO type. So, I create positions within my organizations like visionary or strategic officer because the CEO needs to be a very gold or (A) personality type, where they get things organized and they love to attend meetings. I hate meetings because I'm more high vision, bigger things, bigger ideas, bigger relationships. So, I think when entrepreneurs really figure that, especially if you're the founder or visionary entrepreneur. The founder of your company, when you finally figure out where you're good at and like we're talking about you get into that sweet spot, it helps everybody around you.
Steve Rush: Yeah. You've also now taken your learnings of work and business and how you've learned, and you coach others.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: And one of the key things you focus on is the application of helping people with their emotional growth. Now for those folk that maybe aren't aware of what emotional growth is, be great if you could just explain it and maybe give us some insight as to how you coach that.
Matthew Cox: Yeah. So, a lot of times, I find in high performers or individuals that are performing at that high level or executives, there's a lot of emotional. I mean, so many coaches out there and a lot of the coaches forget about that emotional growth. And I think having the mental health background and dealing with my own emotional health as that visionary entrepreneur. I really focus on that with them, the founders of the companies, the ones that get off the ground, because I can teach you all the systems in the world, but if you can't manage your emotion and your emotional stability, you're going to drive everybody crazy around you. Because we're odd ducks. I mean, if you think about all those guys that we talked about, like Steve Jobs, they struggled in their personal lives because we think so high level that a lot of times, I drive my wife crazy.
So, I have to find my own person to go to that kind of can grasp my overload and that's my business partner and brother and he knows, he knows how to address it. So, what I usually do is, I start with your emotional stability as the higher performer. Once we figure out where you're at, then we go down and start working on traction and getting the system in place and envision because that emotional health, we have to have a people plan.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And the most important person is you because everything ripples down. If that makes sense.
Steve Rush: Yeah. It makes bucket loads of sense. Yeah, for sure.
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: And actually, it's one of those things that doesn't crop up in the classroom.
Matthew Cox: No.
Steve Rush: You know, nobody teaches you this stuff, right. It's one of these things you either bump into, you learn or you find out as you are learning from mistakes and challenges, there is definitely this bit that comes along with it, which is, innate radar to maybe spend more time focusing and being aware of people's emotions because you have to, but this is also something that you sometimes need another person to help you with, right?
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: I encourage all leaders. And this is why I tell them, you know, hire somebody like me to walk you through it or hire a therapist if there's more emotional growth that you have to do, therapy's not a bad thing. And when I tell high performers this, they're like, what, everybody could use the therapist or somebody they can go to work on certain things in their life. Everybody has something to work on. And when you discover that, you know, I had to discover when I worked with my individual person that I worked with, either it was a counselor or coach. Each of them would always teach me, you just got to slow down a little bit. Because being ADD, I kind of would go too fast for people.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: Or I would capitalize the conversation when I'd call an employee because I see a division, I see something coming and then by the time they're overwhelmed after a 30-minute conversation on the phone.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: Because it's kind of like an emotional dump, if that makes sense. Does that make sense, Steve?
Steve Rush: Absolutely, yeah.
Matthew Cox: I see this coming and as a high visionary, it was too much. Even my brother would say, hey, you got to break it down. So that's where that emotional growth as a leader's going to come.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And so, when I teach leaders, I say, hey, you got so much going in your head when you call your manager or whoever's under you, you kind of throw up on them.
Steve Rush: [Laugh].
Matthew Cox: And so [laugh] pick one thing. And so, we calm issues. I say, pick one issue. So, if you can get three issues in that week, you've accomplished more. So, we, you know, one of the things I do as coach, I teach them how to run a more effective meeting. So, when they come in they don't do the whole soup. They don't throw everything into the kitchen, in that soup and start stirring. I say, only bring three or four issues and let's talk about them and round table and they find that it's a lot more effective and then they just have this ongoing issue list that they just kind of work at. If that makes sense.
Steve Rush: I like it. Yeah, really practical, yeah.
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: So, here's the thing. Do you think that we're all broadly on the spectrum of some sort?
Matthew Cox: Oh, I think everybody has something. Yeah, I think everybody struggles with something. I call it that everybody does have a learning disability, some sort. We just don't embrace it. It might be an emotional, like you might be quick to get anger. You might be highly intelligent. So, everybody to you is dumb.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: That is a disability. It's an impairment because it's not true. Not everybody around you is dumb. It's just, they don't think the way you think. So, I think it is, I think everybody needs to step back and kind of see what they struggle with and be aware of it. Because we're all human beings. We put our pants one leg at a time, and I think the best thing I ever heard from a personal friend is said, you know, a good friend or somebody that's going to lead you as a coach. I'm going to tell you, you have a booger in your nose and your zippered down, you know, and that's, what's hard for a lot of high performers. I'm going to be honest with them.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And sometimes, I've scared some away, but if you're wanting to grow, don't hire somebody that's not going to be truthful to you.
Steve Rush: And there is still stigma with accepting that you have an issue.
Matthew Cox: Oh yeah.
Steve Rush: Or you have some needs that are different.
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: That need a different treatment strategy, right?
Matthew Cox: Yeah. Even some of my high performers, I said, you need to go get, you need to go get therapy. I've had to tell them that. I said, there's some traumas there that are causing you to be a bad leader. And they're like, well, what do you mean? And we had to walk through it. And I had some that said sure. And they did it. And they've had very successful careers and some chose not to, and they've struggled.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: Yeah, so a lot of them don't want to accept it. And I here's what, I just encourage any leader, listening, not everybody's broken. Brene Brown's one of my favorite authors. It's just that daring to lean into it. If you ever want to read some good books, go read her stuff. Because she kind of addresses that society norm that everybody numbs out. Like most of my high performers that are numbing out, they're either using some sort of substance. They're staying up late, their workaholics and that's a form of numbing out. And so, you have to understand why that is. You have to have a good balance if that makes sense.
Steve Rush: It does, yeah. So, we're going to give our listeners an opportunity to find out how I can get a copy of the book and a bit more of your insights in a little while. But before we do that, we're going to just flip the lens a little bit.
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: And I'm going to hack into your leadership brain. And I want you to share with our listeners, your top three leadership hacks, Matt?
Matthew Cox: I'd say my top three leadership hacks, or you know. Have purpose, lead with purpose and understanding, but help others understand that purpose. Number two is, just let go. Once you hire somebody, let go, let them fell, help them understand their seat. Be very clear, what the expectation is. And then number three is just have fun. Enjoy the people you work with and love but have passion in what you're doing. If you don't have passion, it's going to be tough. Every day is going to be tough. Because being an entrepreneur is tough. And the last thing I'd just say is have a coach, because everybody needs a coach. Everybody needs somebody to guide them when they hit the ceiling.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: Because you will hit the ceiling.
Steve Rush: Awesome advice. Thank you, Matt.,
Matthew Cox: Yeah.
Steve Rush: Next part of the show we call it Hack to Attack. So, this is typically where something hasn't worked out. It maybe been catastrophic even, but as a result of that experience, it's now serving you well in your life and work. What would be your Hack to Attack?
Matthew Cox: I think as an entrepreneur or business owner, when you're wearing all the hats and you need to start hiring and increasing your team or grow your team, I've hired some bad people, and these are people I've known. So, I've had one that I hired as a head nurse, and I'd known her for years and it was the worst hire that I ever did. Because you don't know people until you start working with them, you might know them in a community base. You might know them somewhere else. So, from that experience I learned it's okay to hire people but hire slow and fire fast.
Steve Rush: Yeah.
Matthew Cox: And so from that experience, I learned that.
Steve Rush: It's interesting dynamic, isn't it? When you only have a social view of somebody who can talk a great game.
Matthew Cox: Yes.
Steve Rush: Seeing them apply it is often sometimes different.
Matthew Cox: Yeah. The way you live your life, it does ripple into how you work.
Steve Rush: Yeah, does. Last part of the show, we get to give you some time travel. You can bump into Matt at twenty-one and give him some advice and some words of wisdom. What would it be?
Matthew Cox: If I bumped into myself at twenty-one, oh geez, I'd say never give up. And that's the theme of my life has been, I'd tell my twenty-one-year self, I say listen to people around you that are good mentors. But I would probably just tell, him, take a break and enjoy things on the way as well.
Steve Rush: Good advice. And taking a break is part of that recovery system that gives you the emotional capacity to go on and do great things, of course.
Matthew Cox: Yes. It rejuvenates your battery. You need it. No matter what phase you're in. I think a lot of us entrepreneurs, we think we need to keep working all the time and I tell you don't do it.
Steve Rush: So, I absolutely love the work you're doing Matt. I think you are making a massive difference. I think the book is going to be a game changer for many people around the globe in helping them understand their approach to other people who are somewhat different to maybe what they think they are. And I'm really excited for you that you are on this journey. If our listeners wanted to get a copy of the book and find out a little bit more about the work that you do, where's the best place for us to send them?
Matthew Cox: You can reach me on LinkedIn. I'm actively on there. You could also email me @matthewmctraining.com or it's going to be available here soon in all the Amazon's online book, Barnes & Noble, all the different online ways to buy it. So, it'll be coming out soon or go to the website, matthewlelandcox.com.
Steve Rush: We'll put all of those links in the show note, Matt, and also as, when the book arrives in the various different jurisdictions, we'll help you get it out to our audience and our listeners. And we wish you all the very, very best with it too. I just want to say thank you for being part of our community in coming on The Leadership Hacker Podcast.
Matthew Cox: No, thank you, Steve. Appreciate it.
Steve Rush: Thanks Matt.
Closing
Steve Rush: I want to sign off by saying thank you to you for joining us on the show too. We recognize without you, there is no show. So please continue to share, subscribe, and like, and continue to get in touch with us with the great new stories that we share every week. And so that we can continue to bring you great stories. Please make sure you give us a five-star review where you can and share this podcast with your friends, your teams, and communities. You want to find us on social media. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter @leadershiphacker, Leadership Hacker on YouTube and on Instagram, the_leadership_hacker and if that wasn’t enough, you can also find us on our website leadership-hacker.com. Tune into next episode to find out what great hacks and stories are coming your way. That's me signing off. I'm Steve Rush, and I've been your Leadership Hacker.
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