Sean: What happened in between? Tell us about those 17 years and then tell us about the 19 years.

Jeff: You're right. You used the word aspiring, you know, people aspire to be a lawyer and that's absolutely what it was for me.

I guess ultimately one of the problems, if I re or unpacked my life is I had a reason to become a lawyer, but it wasn't a very good one. But the main reason I did it is, you know, when you're that age, you're like, what am I going to do with my life?

I had no idea. And my mom who has since passed, but my mom used to say, you know, Jeff, you should be a lawyer because you love to argue and you're really good at it. I think back on that and say, well, if that's true, then all teenagers should probably be lawyers because most teenagers like to argue, maybe I was good at it, but that was so real as a motivator. Because probably five years into practicing law my mom sent me a letter and said, "I really hope you like what you're doing, because I know that me saying that had an impact on you deciding to be a lawyer."

I mean I nailed it. I had a high paying job, was married, you know, all that, you know, house, kids. And, but that's what I started to ask the question like, what's next? Because I achieved my goal. And so I needed a minimum, a new goal and I looked around the very big firm. And I said, what I concluded I wanted was I wanted to be in leadership.

I really felt called to leadership. I just did. I felt like I had unique perspectives. But I took a look at them, they were run by a committee with a managing partner and I looked at who was on that committee. And I said, I'll never get in that room because I realized that the firm leadership saw me as unusual.

Let's call it odd and not in a personal way, but professionally, they used to say, I asked too many questions and I would say, isn't that the idea? And they say, no, it's actually not, you're pain. Because you know, and here's, what's really interesting. I don't know where this came from. I suspect it came from my dad who was an entrepreneur.

One thing that sticks out of that time was in leadership or the leadership perspective, people at the firm regularly said to me, why do you spend so much time with the staff? I ended up marrying a legal secretary at the firm. And I said, well, because they're great people. And I realized that they saw themselves as different from the staff.

And they saw themselves as in many ways, better than the staff when I didn't. And so early in my career, I was a guy that treated everybody with dignity and respect, which I think is frankly, the heart of leadership. And so as a result, I said, well, if they're not going to let me in the room, I'll go create my own room.

And I left and started my own firm. And. Did that for seven years on my own, 10 years at a big firm, seven years on my own building an awesome firm, we had a great team, great people. I was very committed to building that from like a business versus a firm. And we built this amazing firm and it was rocking.

And then I was running the firm and I was bringing in clients just like you said, and I was doing the work building the team. I was doing it all. And I had a life to make it, I mean, I had achieved Nirvana for lawyers. Cause I had a life. Most lawyers work too hard. This is the life you just go. I nailed it.

Except when I had nailed it, I started to think about what I was doing and realized I didn't actually like practicing law. I loved the business, but I didn't love practicing law. And it was a challenging decision, but it wasn't a hard decision because I knew that I couldn't do something I didn't love.

And I quit. I walked away from all of it.

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Sean: For those who are listening in right now and maybe they're thinking, oh, there are also people who came to me and asked me to invest in their private or startups, what’s your advice? What are the first things you look at, first red flags that you check out before you even move on in the conversation?

Marvin:  I realized that you're investing in the person more. Unlike in stocks, in the stock market, there are ISO certifications, a lot of lawyers, and a lot of accountants. But when you invest in startups, there’s none of those. So it’s all in the skills and integrity of the person handling the business. There are also a lot of holes in there so it’s not just about the concept. It can be a food cart but if the entrepreneur is really good, that’s what you’re paying for, his or her ingenuity and also the risk factor which can be lost.

People always see the stock market as risky but the investments in business can be riskier because your money can go down to zero. In the stock market, your money will not even go down to zero. Especially when you buy the big ones that have dividends, your money will not be lost. So it's just that the exposure of people here in the Philippines are more in savings accounts and real estate. And then when they get introduced to the stock market, they’d be like, oh, this is risky. I guess it’s still a young concept at least in our country. We’re not mature yet compared to other countries.

JC: For me, the first thing is, because it’s true, you’re really investing in the person. So the first thing I look at is, how would I add value? And how would this person add value if I join or partner with them? Because it's always, for me, our synergy should be one plus one equals three. So I look at first, definitely, is this person going to be an entrepreneur? Can he do it? Does he have the proof of concept? Has he already led businesses now that have already grown? Has he shown that he can manage people?

So it’s like, it depends on your situation. What are your strengths as a company? And then if you're going to invest in somebody, what value will you be able to add? And then, so aside from the person, aside from the value that they can add based on their strengths or the other businesses that they own, definitely the financials. At the end of the day, it's about the return on investment. So you have to see what's the business model, how are you going to earn money, how are you going to get your money back, how long will it take. So at the end of the day, it's really about ROI.

So when you already see that the financial doesn't make sense, but also you need to double check because a lot of startups have really bad accounting processes. I mean, usually if it’s a startup, their accounting is not yet polished. So I allow my people to check the accounting information. Even me, I also have a background in business school so I study the numbers. You just have to question them about the details regarding their FS, income statement, and everything. Somehow, you will know it. So you really have to do your research. You have to ask about the business model, who are their clients, how much sales do they do per month, per day, per contract. Then somehow you will be able to break it down, you will be able to catch if the FS is right. And I would recommend joining startups with proof of concept. For me, like, it’s very risky for me if there’s no proof of concept that they have done something. And it's just an idea.

Marvin: Sometimes, for me, I look at their PowerPoint or sometimes the companies that are not making money yet, sometimes it’s like that. Or the idea is really interesting, but there’s no operations yet. There’s something like that.

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Sean: I've read your bio and you mentioned that there was a time in your life when you lost everything and nearly your life. I'm not going to ask you for the details, but I want to talk about hitting rock bottom. How you got back up? Can you tell us about that?

David: To those who are listening, I own my L's, I've made massive mistakes. I mean, I'm really screwed up.

Mine was based around alcohol and drugs. I got massive success, for those out there that hype themselves up and go hyperactive after a deal and gone out and celebrated. And going back to work the next day and I've done it again and I'm going to celebrate, I've just done that for a few years to an excess, but because things were going well, I thought it wasn't a problem.

So I ended up losing everything. I had a breakdown, lost everything to the extent I ended up sleeping in my car. And the reason I'm saying this is I want to give people context. If you ever have it, if you wake, if you'll pull in your house and nothing's all, and you don't know any difference, it was still horrible, but it's different because you don't know different.

It goes from a fact of habit, everything, and you screw it up. You make the mistakes. It's hard to come out of that because you just hit yourself with a stick. To go from eating in the top restaurants, driving the cars, having the road trips and all the holidays to sleeping in a car and literally not able to afford to buy a sandwich.

Like that bad and I wanted it done, but it also gets to the stage where you can't, but you have to get through that day. It's horrible. It's painful. You have to become accountable to yourself. You have to realize everyone messes up, everyone makes mistakes.

You're in hell, don't stop. Hell isn't the place to stop in. Hell is not the place to retire in. Like it's a crap town, it's a little village on the way to your success. And the only way it becomes your permanent location is if you stop. Now it doesn't matter how you get out there. If you got a car, you drive out of hell, if you got a plane you fly out of hell.

If you can walk with your legs - you walk out of hell, if your legs don't work - you crawl out hell. What you don't do is stay there and burn in heat and die. It's just not it. Now you might not believe in yourself or someone might not think they deserve it and you might not. Which is hard but it's true, but it doesn't matter what, right? If you're in Hell, it doesn't matter whether you deserve it or not, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter whether you could achieve your day or not. You just gotta do it next week. You just gotta get through today. You just got to get in the next hour though. You just have to manage a minute, and everyone can manage a minute to do one thing if you improve 1% a day, right? Take your life right now.

If you improve your life 1% today, that's manageable. If you do that again tomorrow and again the day after, in a year's time you have twice what you have today and that might not be a lot. But a year after that you'll have another hundred percent. But there are actually 200% that you would've gone up and it will keep growing like that.

I think for too many people out there, they let themselves off too easy and they beat themselves up far too easy. And I think this is the big difference for a lot of people. If we're gonna be on a stage where we're going to get every single one out of this world. Imagine, do everything we have to do to get it.

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What are the top five investments for new graduates or fresh grads to invest in and to start to accumulate?

Marvin: If I’m a fresh grad, I’d still do stocks and I'd still go into business. That’s it. I don't know if I'll do bonds if I’m a fresh grad. I don't know if I'll do it. Anything that has maybe a high degree of risk, I will try it earlier on. So I think that's how I will look at it. Anything that they understand that will give them larger upsides since they are still young, I think that would be better for them. So I suggest that they study. Look for investments that make sense for them, and then what they understand, what they think they can grow with, and then what they think will work for them. That's what they should focus on.

But for me, I always tell them, start businesses as early as they can. And then when the businesses start making money, put them on the stock market. And then when the stocks make money, buy preferred shares, buy REITs, buy bonds, or later on, they can also buy real estate. So any of those.

JC: Like Marvin said, what makes sense for you? Honestly, it depends per person of what opportunities you see, what is allowed for you. My situation is different from Marvin. My situation is different from my cousin. So It depends. You just have to honestly compare the different investments. A lot of the challenges with young people that I see, they keep talking about it. They don't actually put in the time and try, oh, how much is it going to cost me to buy a single family home? How much is it going to cost me to, how do I compute the tax for that? How do I find out the HOA - homeowners association- fees? All of that. If you don't put in the time to actually try to even check if it makes sense, then you're never going to start. But for me, based on my background, I’d really go with business.

Marvin: Business is really amazing. If I didn’t do stocks, I’d really do business because that's one of the best ways to do it. Businesses will add money to you while with stocks, it helps you multiply it. Here’s the difference between business and stock. With business, when you go home, you also take home the headache, especially if it’s a person you’re having problems with. But in stocks, there is none. When the market is close, there is nothing you can do with it. But if you are a business operator, for example when you collect money from your clients but they don’t pay you, you bring that with you and sometimes there’s even a feeling of resentment to it. Things like that. You bounced a check, or an employee steals from you, or how do you increase sales also, or you have other competitors.

So there's so many factors that you can’t control. Unlike when you go into the stock market, after trading hours, that’s it, you're done. You’re done. So I think that's the difference. And I think it’s nice that when you’re still young, you start early for you to know what will work for you and why it also works for you. So that’s it. That's just my take on it, I guess.

That's the difference of being an employee and a business person. It’s true that you get to do what you want. But the flip side to that is, you also don't get to do what you want. There are also cons in the stock market. The cons in the stock market is you don't control it. In business, you can control it. Right? You can control it.

The misconception of other people is you invest to retire. That's not true. You invest to do what you like, if what you like makes money for you also. We've been brainwashed that if you’re an employee or retired, you should start your business. People think that being in a business is the end and all. There’s more riding in your shoulders. I’ve worked harder, longer, when I was no longer an employee compared to when I was still an employee. It’s more stressful.

JC: It really depends on you, again, on what pushes you, on what motivates you, if this is something you like. So Marvin’s advice is right. Do what really works for you.

Sean: How do you negotiate?

David: So I think a lot of things depend on products. I value my product. Now I do offers. It's a marketing technique. I don't lie about that. That's true.

I value every person that wants to start with me. But I have a pipeline that is thick enough, so I don't need the business. If you are worried about whether you should take the business or lower your price, because your pipeline isn't thick enough, you don't have enough people out there that want to work with you. So it's not a price problem. It's a prospect problem.

So if your pipeline is fat, you can have follow-up systems where you don't need to worry about that, or you go into it and you practice out that. And this is what I do to a lot of people.

If you will go in for the price and they're freaking out, mostly because they don't see the value or they're just being a chance. So you need to re-identify just because it looks like a cat doesn't mean it's a cat in sales. You look at a normal cat in real life. It's a cat. But because it looks like a prospect doesn't mean they are.

So it's having these strategies. So when people talk about value, we have to go through - we identify with, 'is this prospect actually a prospect that we can close in the current state where they need and what we can deliver on?' If all of these boxes are checked and I am just sitting on this bed because they don't even know you well enough, they don't like you enough, or they don't trust you or something else is going on, they haven't done it.

So the best thing to do is go through a series and steps, which you can go through to isolate each objection. And imagine that you're, you're trying to herd sheep down a corridor with loads of balls. You're ahead of the sheep. And you literally shut one door. If you shut that door, it stops in going through it. So one door in a sale will be interesting. Okay. Listen, before we go any further, what I want to do is I've gone down this road before and it's turned out actually, this wasn't a good fit.

You also need to put a little note In your head, change our question, change our pre-call to make sure this happens never again. Or if it does have a third, then you just handle that. So that means you need to deal , get them in on the call with you whatever it is.

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We have a business question from Richard. He says, Hi. I started doing pasabuy kind of business by reselling products from overseas. Such as IKEA small items and kids' stuff. It's been a month since I'm doing this. And there's, it seems like there's no one who would like to buy from me. Any advice if you think this business is wrong? I'm an introvert. And somehow I'm asking people to buy my stuff. And it's really hard. It's really hard for me to ask people, to buy my stuff.

Jayson: Well, if you're shy about it, then you might need a best kept secret. With what we're doing it's the same. For example, with me as a speaker, I coach some financial advisors in insurance, real estate. We have to get ourselves out there, including our business. You know, the saying, it's not what you know, it's who you know. But in this social media age, it's not just what you know, it's who you know. But it's who knows what you are doing or who knows what you know.

The best way right now, is really, really, social media. How you can study those Facebook ads and to have a good business, a good line of products. And there are many doing that now. It's getting kind of saturated. But you have to attach a narrative on the product, there has to be a story.

In other words, for example, let's go back to speaking. There are a lot of speakers. Why would they get Jayson though? There are a lot of speakers. Why would I get Sean Si? But people would get us because of the narrative or our personal narrative that resonates with them. There's this one website's name, significantobjects.com. Then, the items are ordinary items.

Let's say a plastic banana. So a significant object that is a plastic banana, the price would be a few cents, but they were able to sell it at $78. So in a sense, the price isn't at 50 pesos yet but he was able to sell it for about 4,000 pesos.

And they have a lot of items that are like that. It's just because of a narrative. It's like the brand Supreme. If you think about it, it's just a t-shirt. But if you place its branding there, boom. That's it. The price is a lot, or the well-known brands. So finding a way to create that narrative, because people don't buy your products. People buy you before they buy the product, or they buy any opportunity.

So you have to find a way to do that. And then as for being an introvert, it's fine because it's in social media. You just have to message them. That's the safety of the introverts. Believe it or not, I'm an introvert. So you don't really have to talk to people. Hey, how are you? But you can just message them. Even though you're an introvert, it's more convenient doing that. You start with your warm market, message them, show them the products and make a narrative. Why is this better than other pasabuys? Something like that. Then put a cat emoji like the begging eyes then that could increase your sales.

Sean: Storytelling is very important. How you tell the story about your product, what it does, the benefits, how you bought it, how difficult it is to get it.

When you're the one telling the story, the story follows you. And that is one way to differentiate yourself and to make your product more interesting.

Jayson: You know, Sean, I teach that in my speaking program. I'm sure you've heard of this though. Your storytelling would be elevating it into a story selling. Yeah. So you're doing story selling and sometimes you don't even need to sell anymore. You sell without selling, using the power of stories.

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Sean: What are some of the best tactics, not strategies, but tactics that you carry with you in closing deals?

David: So first off it goes into mindset. You gotta go in there with "this is a sales process." Even if you're making your mate for a coffee, you either meet him for a coffee you're meeting actually as a sales professional. And if you're a sales professional, you need to have the focus mentality. Yes, you should smile. Yes, you should be happy, but you need to be a doctor of stuff.

Try going walk-in to your doctor's and he's got his music, and he says "Yes! What's in bruv? nice to see you - blah blah blah." You don't care if it was your - mate if you're going to see your doctor, you're going for a reason. You want the professional and your doctor will ask probing questions. Your doctor isn't there to make you happy. He's there to help. And we have a lot of salespeople out there we have to start with, you know, our mindsets right?

We've gone with knowing what we want out of that. Everyone's clear. Pre-qualification is everything, absolutely everything. And the reason I say about the friendship thing before, I would jump on a strategy call with someone unless I know what the call's about. And a lot of people don't like that.

I'll ask a series of questions to pre-qualify, one to make sure I can help. Two, to make sure I want to work with you. And three, to make sure that you're confident and I'm going to sign up for the phone call.

So having this pre-qualification is a friendly, informative chat. It doesn't have to be serious. You want to have a direct question? Well, what do you want to know or what you've been working on? What are you doing at the moment? How are you selling them? What's the main struggles you've got? What are big goals you want to achieve in the next year but you haven't, or what are you currently turning over? Imagine I keep my fingers now I'm in the room with you right now. And you've got me for a day for free. What would you set me to work on to help you get more deals, whether it'd be an action, or things like that, what would it matter, right?

If you won't answer those questions, you're after just some free tips and I don't blame you, fair play for the hustle. Fair play for the hustle, but you're trying to go back, there's something that would do that. Contact coaches, try to get a little bit of this, like phoning a chef up, trying to get a recipe of each one, and now you've got a cookbook.

With that, it stops a lot of that. So then you have a stage where I know that you're committed. I know you're open to it. This is before the strategy goal.

So we have to have a structure for what we do, having your pre-qualification. I think that was about eight questions I've given you, then changed those questions up. And once you've got your questions, break it down into a clear order, but it's a smooth transition because no one wants to be felt like they are - no one wants to feel like they're completing a survey.

It gives us a clear idea of where we are. So pre-qualification is so vital because you want to know what is a viable prospect. Two, you want to know the facts that you need to get help from us. And three, it also takes you down the path you've taken out a lot of the potential objections later.

It's all structured, no more pushing sales. It's just direct. Knowing what to say and when.

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What are your thoughts on getting further studies like an MBA or master's degree? Do you think it's still important for an entrepreneur?

Jayson: As long as you're doing it for the right reasons. Because there are a lot of people who take MBA for the wrong reasons.

They think that it will add more credibility for them. But if you're doing it to really learn and to upgrade, enhance yourself, yeah, there's nothing wrong with it. You can pursue it. The challenge with MBA, it's better if you have an entrepreneurial background. In my opinion, you're supposed to have an entrepreneurial background because MBA teaches you how to be a good manager.

So if you start with an MBA, and you don't have a business, you become a good manager. But if you're an entrepreneur, then you get an MBA. Now you have a business and then now you've become a better manager or you have an idea how to scale your business. Then it would be around two sides of a coin that you will fill.  

Have you known someone who's very good with managing? But if you ask them to start a business, it's. They can't do it. They won't be able to do it. And then you meet an entrepreneur who doesn't have any capital. no managerial background, no knowledge on management and those stuff. But after a week, they suddenly have a business. They find a way around it. So the street smarts and book smarts. And also the competency. This is from the E-Myth. E-Myth mastery. I forgot the title. 

He shared there, the three qualities of an entrepreneur. So he mentioned the entrepreneur, the manager, and the technician. So the technicians are those who do the dirty work. You do the labor, hands-on. Manager is the one who creates the system. The entrepreneur is the one who has the vision, who sees the future and find ways to get there. There are entrepreneurs who are very good with those qualities, being an entrepreneur. Then the majority of them are technicians, but they're not managerial.

There are those as well who are managerial, but no vision when it comes to business. So those factors are what we need to weigh. To be honest, MBA is good, but there are millions of people who have an MBA degree so if you're just looking at it to add credibility. Yeah.

The reason why it's better if you already have your own business or you're more entrepreneurial, one of my relatives who owns a huge business, I talk to that particular relative when we have family occasions, okay. Always a wonderful question, always about business and then after he took an MBA he knew how to manage his business better.

So creating the systems and it also allowed him to establish contacts. So for him, it worked out because his motives, the objective is to find ways to build or create a system, especially when it comes to numbers, it helped him. So there are, there are pros and cons about that.

Maybe an example would be driving a car. For me, this is my opinion, it's like driving a car.

For example you took a driving class, then that's okay.

But if you took a driving class without a car, you forget what you learned. And then you will tell people how to run their business without really understanding how they've set up the business. There are a lot of consultants like that.

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Sean: How did it look like going from where you were? How did you become the sales person that you were?

David: If you realize that it comes to the stage where a lot of people get high on their own supply. And in their mind, they heightened themselves up to being the greatest, or they get the bad case sort of the excuses or exercises where they just don't progress.

I moved into sales and I wasn't great. I was okay. I was confident or enough for what I am getting, I was doing the work and I was looking around and I decided to door to door selling, I looked at other people in there, maybe hitting 5's or they were hitting 2's. And I'd be like "why?" I'm doing the work. I'm doing the effort. I'm smiling, and this and that - so there's something else.

Now this is the point and this is the fork in the road, that so many people get to and it goes wrong. Because there's two sides of it. One side, they become blinkered to the problem. And they be like "it will be alright" and eventually all that happens is their expectation of becoming a five - an ideal person goes down so two is actually all right, they justify it.

They find the excuses. They find the reasons and that screws them up for life. They stop pushing everyday. They start just getting used to being in the middle of the road everyday. Some days if they do fall they’d be like "yeah I nearly caught the top prize", or they look down at the people below them and go, "well, at least I'm not as bad as them." We've all heard these excuses. I wasn't like that.

I was at the stage of where I'd been trained for the last four years, the patron side, but I'm good. I can be good and I can be better. But to become better, I had to either act better, I've got to do better. I had to stop giving myself the outs, I had stopped giving myself easy victories. Because in sales, the one thing we're good at is selling ourselves, you go into a sales room of low performers. I'll tell you what, there's a lot of explanations as to why no one's performing. Their leads aren't right. This is a right, the industry, the economy, my phone, I've got the wrong suit or my ties are the wrong color, they don't like my personality, blah, blah, blah. There's always things that come out.

I need to commit to this. I need to craft myself and I've become a really good student. And I learned, like we said, earlier - podcast. I think that if you go back over the last eight years, the longest I haven't done a podcast or listened to a podcast or done something would be two weeks.

Now that's the longest in probably 8 years? That's because I'm honest to myself. A lot of people say "oh no, I do it everyday. I don't do it everyday because sometimes I am too busy." But typically if you take a month - 30 days , I'll do it 25 hours out of 30 days, typically it is a podcast. Somedays there'll be two or three podcasts and sometimes, I wasn't going to do one. You become a student of the game and all these things change.

And if you keep, if you keep fighting, if you keep getting in the ring, if you keep getting punch, there's two things that's going to happen. You could end up covered in bruises or you're gonna learn to move better. And so that was really what happened. So over time I became better and I made myself better. I become a student of the game and that delivers results.

So I found teachers, I've found students, I've found mentors that could lead me to where I wanted to go.

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How are you confident in speaking in front of other people? How are you not awkward?

Jayson: You have to do your homework and you have to know your audience. So before you speak, before I speak, I study my audience, who my audience would be. I think that's one of my strengths as a speaker. I can speak to different groups. From top-level to public, from students to CEOs, entrepreneurs, and it's learning how to speak their language.

So in other words, for example, I will talk about, let's say leadership. So, let's say in the corporate businesses, leadership, you need to have your own vernacular. You need to have your own language. So that's corporate talk. But when I'm talking to, let's say middle managers. Oh, you have to believe in yourself. If you want to be a leader. Say, if you don't believe in yourself, other people won't believe in you.

Then, when I talk to students, talk about leadership. How could I relate this to them? Saying, who are you friends with? The brainy ones? Or the delinquents?

So it's like, how can you deliver the same language to different kinds of people, the same language, and share it effectively. And, the number one quality of a good speaker is really about passion. And I'm not talking about rara emotional type of passion. What I'm talking about is the passion for their topic, knowing it inside out.

And this is a study that they conducted and they found out that among the 500 plus top Ted speakers, the most popular, that's the number one quality. It's really passion. So the passion is very important, right? You care about your topic. You love your topic because speaking in a way, it's a transfer of emotions. But what's more important is getting your audience to care about what you're talking about.

And it takes time to do that. It takes a lot of preparation to do that, but once you get it, that is why what's important is to know the topic you will be choosing. You're passionate about it. But also find how you can be different, how your topic can be unique from others.

If you weren't a good speaker initially, and you considered it to be a weakness. Why did you still try to hone it? Did John Maxwell not mention that we should hone our strengths instead of our weaknesses?

Jayson: Speaking, isn't really a weakness for me, but, you know, to be honest, speaking, technically it is a skill. It's a technical skill. You can learn it even though you're not a great speaker. And there are many who aren't great speakers, but they're doing it out of necessity. And that's what happened to me. It was out of necessity because, because I needed to do it since we are part of a direct selling company I had to present, well, I have to speak well.

And I learned it. Having that passion, you become passionate about things that you are good at, or you're good in. So when I was getting better and better at speaking, then I started liking it. I started loving it, but generally I wouldn't call it a weakness. It's more of a talent that I haven't discovered yet.

And it took people to help me discover that. Because we tend to do things that we don't like to do in the first place, but we have to do it, right? So I am at that line. I'm also a strengths coach, by the way. StrengthsFinder. I'm a certified strengths coach. So I know that we should be focusing on our strengths, but that's not part of the strengths of what John Maxwell was talking about.

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