The Living Philosophy

Dr Stefano Carpani is an Italian Jungian psychoanalyst, lecturer at the C.G. Jung Institute Zürich, and scientific consultant at Pacifica Graduate Institute. At 46, he has emerged as a leading voice amongst a new generation of Jungian thinkers, bridging depth psychology with sociology, critical theory, and contemporary political questions.

In this conversation, Stefano and I explore the landscape of contemporary Jungian thought, beginning with his distinction between Jungian, post-Jungian, and neo-Jungian approaches—where neo-Jungians like himself aim to make analytical psychology relevant to 21st-century crises beyond the consulting room. We discuss his I+I theory, which synthesises Jung's individuation with sociologist Ulrich Beck's individualization, arguing that contemporary identity formation requires both psychological and sociological lenses to understand. Stefano shares insights from his award-winning work on the fall of the Berlin Wall, explaining how the numinous—an autonomous psychic force Jung described—operates in collective historical transformation, suggesting that major shifts require not just political will but adequate psychic conditions and "the attraction of the symbol." We explore the concept of enantiodromia, Jung's idea that psychological and cultural movements tend to revert to their opposites when pushed too far, applying this to contemporary political polarisation and populism. Throughout, Stefano makes a compelling case for why Jungian analysts must engage courageously with war, democracy, and social transformation, bringing depth psychology out of the clinic and into public discourse.

🔗 Links

- For Jungian monthly talks organised by Stefano: https://www.instagram.com/jungianeum_/ and https://www.youtube.com/@psychosocialwednesdays1944/videos

- Stefano's YouTube page: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHpWRYvgyhifcVkNGk9Tq-A

⏳ Timestamps:

00:00 Intro

01:08 Stefano, the international Jungian

02:21 Jungians vs. Post-Jungians vs. Neo-Jungians

07:27 The Post-Jungians

10:15 The Neo-Jungians

12:50 Classical Jungians vs. Developmental vs. Archetypal

15:40 James's case for a Jungian textbook

20:01 The Jungian language barrier

23:20 The hindrance of jargon

27:11 Stefano's sociological Jungian work

31:49 Bringing the unconscious into everyday life

34:52 Covid through the lens of Jung

35:49 The fallacy of the end of history

38:05 The fall of the Berlin Wall as a numinous event

43:33 Moments of memetic infection

47:16 History makers as artists

49:42 Jungian lens on contemporary politics

50:53 Returning to memetic infection

58:24 What is enantiodromia?

01:00:12 Populism and energetic release

01:04:33 Stefano's guest recommendations

01:05:18 Where to find out more about Stefano

Get Jon's book "End of the World: Civilization and Its Fate": https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/end-of-the-world-9781538189016/

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Dr Jon Mills is a philosopher-psychoanalyst and Honorary Professor at the University of Essex, whose work bridges Hegelian philosophy, psychoanalytic theory, and contemporary existential threats facing civilisation. With over 35 books to his name—including five Gradiva Award winners—Jon has spent decades developing what he calls “dialectical psychoanalysis,” a rigorous philosophical framework for understanding the unconscious mind. His latest work, which we’re discussing in this episode, confronts an uncomfortable question: does humanity possess a collective death drive that propels us towards self-destruction?

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You can find Jon’s work at:

• Website: https://www.philosophypsychoanalysis.com

• Publications: https://www.philosophypsychoanalysis.com/academics-psychoanalysis-philosophy

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In this conversation, I sit down with Jon to explore the darkest questions about our species’ future. We examine whether humanity harbours a death wish, diving into the multiple existential crises threatening civilisation—climate change, nuclear weapons, AI risks, geopolitical conflict, and overpopulation/demographic collapse. Jon brings his formidable philosophical toolkit to bear on these challenges, drawing from Hegel, Freud, and his own dialectical framework to understand how good and evil operate simultaneously in human affairs. We debate techno-optimism versus existential pessimism, explore the psychology behind apocalyptic thinking, and we talk about my previous episode on secular eschatology and we discuss what that reveals about our relationship with mortality. We’re left with the question of whether our species can transcend its self-destructive patterns or whether we’re inexorably drawn towards catastrophe.

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⏳Timestamps

00:00 James’s Intro
01:21 Claude AI’s intro to Jon
02:16 Jon’s prolific output
02:59 Does humanity have a death wish?
04:13 The collective forces at play
05:57 Collective and the collective unconscious
09:03 What we mean by humanity - metaphor or reality?
11:03 The crises facing humanity today
12:25 What Jon wanted to achieve with the book
15:45 Universal pessimism?
19:41 James on demographic collapse
23:29 Poverty decline globally
25:21 Optimism on climate
26:09 China and the Thucydides Trap
27:45 James on AI concerns
28:16 Negative trends in prejudice and freedom
31:03 The psychology of the Thucydides Trap
34:35 Good and evil are operative at once
36:43 James’s secular eschatology thesis
41:45 Why are most apocalypse predictions Western?
43:26 Apocalypse as death-cope
44:39 Apocalypse as unmet need gone rotten?
45:35 Jon’s relationship with death
48:18 Jon’s guest recommendation: Michael Montgomery

PF Jung is a YouTube content creator renowned for making the meme of "Enlightened Centrism" great again. He's a self-styled "memetic feudal lord" and "applied sociologist" who has gotten himself in trouble for his attempts to bridge the polarities in society and seeking to bring the far right and far left together. He creates philosophical and political commentary content exploring nuanced positions that resist tribal categorisation, though this approach has led to significant challenges navigating the online political space.

You can find Paul's work at:

YouTube: youtube.com/@PFJung

In this conversation, I sit down with Paul to explore the crisis facing political nuance in online spaces. We discuss his co-opting of the Enlightened Centrism meme, why holding mixed political views has become increasingly difficult to sustain online, and the exhausting work of maintaining charitable interpretation when everyone wants the fight. Paul shares his experience growing a channel whilst managing contradictions, navigating the Peterson-adjacent space, and what it means to be at the "edge of the inside" of multiple political communities. We also explore why the online political warzone demands tribal allegiance and whether there's still room for complexity in an era of constant gotchas and worst-case interpretations.

⏳ Timestamps

00:00 James's Intro
01:15 What is Enlightened Centrism? Paul's co-opted meme
02:49 Defining the position: right-wing and left-wing on different issues
04:00 Contradictions of Centrism
05:08 Crisis of National Identity
13:15 Horseshoe Theory vs Fishhook Theory
16:56 The Political Divide
20:29 PF Jung's most right-wing belief
22:40 Economic shifts and onshoring
23:43 Critique of the US economy
26:42 Economic decadence and hyper-novelty
30:52 Radical Centrism in action
36:50 Constitution treated as religion
42:28 Type I vs Type II errors in governance
43:46 Radical solution for digital culture
45:15 PF Jung's axiom of faith
48:06 Populist movements and preference cascades
1:00:33 Identity crisis of the channel
1:17:47 Edge of the Inside archetype
1:25:58 Guest recommendation

Brendan Graham Dempsey is a metatheory researcher at the Institute of Applied Metatheory and host of the Metamodern Meaning podcast. His work bridges evolutionary theory, developmental psychology, and worldview studies, bringing empirical rigour to questions about how human consciousness and culture evolve. His latest book, Psyche and Symbolic Learning, is the second in a planned ten-volume series exploring these themes through the lens of hierarchical complexity and neo-Piagetian developmental frameworks.

You can find Brendan’s work at:
Metamodern Meaning podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@BrendanGrahamDempsey
Brendan’s Substack: https://brendangrahamdempsey.substack.com/
Brendan’s website: https://www.brendangrahamdempsey.com/

Our previous chats:

• Philosophy Wisdom and Metamodernism

• Critiquing Metamodernism

In this conversation, Brendan introduces me to the ambitious world of metatheory – an attempt to create a unified, coherent understanding of all human knowledge by bridging disciplines from neuroscience to sociology to the humanities. We explore his new role researching worldviews empirically at the Institute of Applied Metatheory, where he’s working to bring scientific rigour to questions that have long been speculative: Can we measure the complexity of worldviews? Do cultures develop through predictable stages? How complex is the Bible compared to Homer, or a text message to your mam? We dive deep into hierarchical complexity, a psychological framework that quantifies the sophistication of thinking across domains and time periods. Brendan shares fascinating research comparing the cognitive complexity of ancient religious texts, from early biblical narratives to the Epic of Gilgamesh, revealing how literacy transforms meaning-making structures. We discuss the difference between metatheory and interdisciplinary work, why spiral dynamics isn’t quite a metatheory, and how this research programme aims to give metamodernism and integral theory the empirical grounding they’ve long needed. This is a conversation for those curious about the big questions: How does all human knowledge fit together? Can we study worldviews scientifically? And what does it mean to truly understand complexity?

⏳ Timestamps
00:00 James’s Intro
01:30 Brendan’s new role at the Institute of Applied Metatheory
03:24 What is metatheory? Situating theories within a bigger picture
06:05 Cognitive science vs. metatheory: Where are the edges?
07:37 Consilience and the unified theory of knowledge
10:27 What is the “normal science” of metatheory?
15:14 Applying metatheory: From integral medicine to worldview research
20:48 Systematising worldview terminology: Paradigms, gestalts, and meaning-making structures
23:03 Measuring cognitive complexity in texts
24:11 Can we validate developmental claims empirically?
25:08 Hierarchical complexity and neo-Piagetian psychology
28:30 Dynamic skill theory: Why you’re not “at a stage”
32:30 What does complexity mean? Is it like IQ?
33:00 Complexity as a scale of task performance, not hardware
35:05 Skill webs and context-dependent performance
37:12 Measuring texts: From texting your mam to ancient scriptures
42:14 Scoring the Bible: Early narratives vs. scribal texts
44:43 The documentary hypothesis and complexity differences in biblical sources 45:09 Literacy’s impact: Hunter-gatherer texts vs. scribal complexity
46:24 Homer, Gilgamesh, and the wisdom of Ptahhotep: Comparing ancient complexity
49:48 Translation challenges in measuring ancient texts
56:49 Education, zip codes, and complexity gaps
59:28 Why developmental models are more optimistic than IQ
1:04:24 Metatheory and metamodernism: How they relate
1:03:15 Testing metamodern and integral claims about worldview development
1:04:24 Metatheory and metamodernism: How they relate
1:10:21 Integral theory and the metamodern landscape
1:12:03 Guest recommendations: Layman Pascal and Nick Headland
1:14:08 Where to find Brendan

"The protection of interiority is the central motivation of Metamodernism." So says Greg Dember, a Seattle-based musician, songwriter and independent researcher in Metamodernism. As the co-founder of the What Is Metamodern? website with Linda Ceriello, PhD, Greg’s writing and podcast appearances speaking on metamodernism have helped popularize the terminology outside of academic discourse through accessible writing. He is the author of Say Hello To Metamodernism!: Understanding Today’s Culture of Ironesty, Felt Experience, and Empathic Reflexivity (2024 Exact Rush). He is also a co-editor of the forthcoming multi-author volume, My Impossible Soul: The Metamodern Music of Sufjan Stevens (Bloomsbury/Lexington). He holds a BA (1987) from Yale University.

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Greg and Linda's Metamodern site - https://www.whatismetamodern.com

Greg's article on the 11 methods of Metamodernism - https://medium.com/what-is-metamodern/after-postmodernism-eleven-metamodern-methods-in-the-arts-767f7b646cae

Greg's book on Metamodernism - https://www.amazon.com/Say-Hello-Metamodernism-Understanding-Reflexivity/dp/B0DHGFKZ8W/

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In this conversation, I sit down with Greg to explore metamodernism as the cultural backdrop that's emerged since roughly 2000, taking over from postmodernism's ironic detachment. We discuss how metamodernism oscillates between modern earnestness and postmodern irony to defend the significance of interiority and felt experience. Greg introduces his framework of 11 metamodern methods—including empathic reflexivity and the double frame—and we examine how artists like the Daniels (Everything Everywhere All At Once), Wes Anderson, Bo Burnham, and even The Beatles navigate this territory. The conversation ranges from David Letterman's evolution to Don Quixote as a proto-metamodern text, exploring how this sensibility has spread from indie niches into mainstream culture, and what it means for how we make and experience art today.

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⏳Timestamps

0:00 Episode Intro2:26 Greg's current work: Sufjan Stevens book3:26 What is metamodernism? Cultural backdrop since 20104:50 From modernism to postmodernism to metamodernism7:36 David Letterman: from postmodern irony to Metamodern maturity10:32 The oscillation between modern and postmodern attributes12:26 Jimmy Fallon and the trend toward sincere enthusiasm15:56 Felt experience vs. detached observation19:26 Bo Burnham's Metamodern masterpiece "Inside"24:31 Rick Glassman and the Dance of Irony25:26 The new sincerity and its relationship to metamodernism28:26 Defending interiority as Metamodernism's central motivation31:38 From indie niches to mainstream: Billie Eilish and Taylor Swift33:29 Everything Everywhere All At Once: metamodernism as hell38:26 Wes Anderson and the metamodern sensibility39:28 The 11 metamodern methods framework40:31 Method #1: Empathic reflexivity40:56 Method #2: Oscillation between modern/postmodern dualities41:24 Method #3: The double frame (Raoul Eshelman)44:26 Quirky as a metamodern aesthetic46:26 Irony vs. cynicism: an important distinction49:26 Don Quixote as proto-metamodern?53:26 History rhymes: Shakespeare, Nietzsche, and cultural crossroads57:26 Exploring quirky and other metamodern methods59:39 Play, playfulness, and Wes Anderson1:01:01 Method #4: Meta-cute1:01:46 Moonrise Kingdom and Fantastic Mr. Fox as meta-cute1:03:56 Protecting interiority: the motivation behind metamodern art1:04:56 Metamodernism as reclaiming something eternally human1:06:26 Sufjan Stevens and the Illinois album1:07:16 Proto-metamodern vs. actually metamodern: the key distinction1:08:26 The Metamodern "Rocky Racoon"1:12:29 The Proto Metamodern Morrissey and The Smiths1:14:43 Guest recommendation: Linda Ceriello1:14:58 Where to find Greg's work

Dr. Erik Goodwyn is a practising psychiatrist with a background in neurobiology who bridges the worlds of neuroscience, Jungian psychology, and fantasy. Erik is co-editor-in-chief of the International Journal of Jungian Studies and as well as dozens of academic papers he has written books on the neurobiology of the gods, dreams, and archetypes, and this year published his first fantasy novel, King of the Forgotten Darkness, which won the Literary Titan Golden Book Award.

You can find Erik's work at:Website: https://erikgoodwyn.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theimaginarium

In this conversation, I sit down with Erik to explore the neuroscience of dreams and their connection to creativity, trauma, and healing. We dive deep into how the default mode network operates during dreaming, why dreams create "as if" narratives to help us make sense of our lives, and how the psyche uses metaphor to consolidate memory, regulate emotions, and plan for the future. Erik shares fascinating insights from his clinical work, including how trauma dreams evolve during the healing process and why some dreams seem to bookend creative projects. We also venture into the realm of fantasy literature, discussing how writers like Tolkien and Sanderson use fantastical elements to tell deeply human stories about real lived experiences.

⏳Timestamps
00:00 James's Intro
01:31 Beginning: Wyoming, Mountain Time, and writing fantasy
03:24 Architects vs. Gardeners: Erik's writing process
08:16 The divine child archetype in therapy dreams
09:13 "as if": how dreams create meaning through metaphor
11:58 Dreams in crisis mode vs. exploratory mode (PTSD example)
15:08 Memory consolidation and forward planning in dreams
16:37 The default mode network during dreaming
19:32 Creativity and the default mode network
24:19 Dream sequences: Exploration of themes across multiple dreams
29:27 The body's natural healing process through dreams
40:58 Ernest Hartman and contextualizing metaphors
42:14 What is fantasy really about? Beyond escapism
43:01 Tolkien's Lord of the Rings as meditation on the problem of evil
43:04 Evil and grace in Middle-earth
45:29 Morgoth, Sauron, and the continuation of evil
46:37 Guest recommendation: Stefano Carpani
47:19 Where to find Erik

https://cjthex.com/subscribe → subscribe to CJ's mailing list for all things CJ the X

https://tinyurl.com/asdi708uo → buy tickets to CJ's show in San Francisco, CA on the 10th October

I sat down with CJ the X recently to discuss the creative process, pragmatism, their recent world tour and later in the weird world of dreams. We also talk about the topic that first brought us together many moons ago: Jordan Peterson and CJ's year long deep dive into him that dragged him deeper into the philosophical quest.

⏳Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction

01:39 - Reflections on CJ's Intercontinental Speaking Tour

05:56 - Wrestling with the need to be right

10:27 - Play, fear and the creative process

15:27 - Colonised by the algorithm

17:47 - Search for Signal

19:27 - Exploring the Balance of Routine and Passion

23:52 - Flywheel or Passion?

26:14 - CJ's journey from chaotic fun to serious philosophy

27:33 - CJ done with YouTube?

32:28 - CJ's Jordan Peterson video

36:28 - James's struggle with intellectual responsibility

40:43 - CJ on why passion has to be the guide

44:18 - Is CJ a Platonist or a Pragmatism

45:55 - CJ on the sacred and the profane

47:11 - James on holding knowledge lightly

48:39 - The Metaphysical Club

49:48 - The strands of pragmatism

50:34 - C.S. Peirce

51:18 - William James and Peirce's Relationship

53:44 - Pragmatism and Jordan Peterson

55:55 - What is Pragmatism?

57:17 - Pragmatism vs. Postmodernism

1:00:48 - Is Western civilisation the peak?

1:01:35 - Peterson's Pragmatic Christianity

1:04:19 - The dangers of high status

1:05:51 - CJ's lessons learned from speaking tour

1:11:28 - CJ's Anti-mimetic attitude

1:14:55 - James starting Jungian Masters

1:15:38 - James on Dreams

1:16:55 - CJ's troubled relationship with the dreamworld

1:19:32 - Dreams and creativity

1:24:40 - CJ on James's excessive curiosity

1:26:18 - CJ's read on James's alien dreams

1:27:36 - Connection between dreams and creativity

1:30:01 - James wants to study CJ's dreams

1:34:44 - Wrapping up

1:35:27 - CJ's Guest Recommendations

"Jung was essentially an evolutionary theorist". These are the words of Gary Clark, a Visiting Research Fellow in the School of Medical Sciences at the University of Adelaide in Australia, who has written a book on the intersection of Jungian Analytical Psychology and evolutionary neuroscience.

If you want to learn more about Gary you can check out his book "Carl Jung and the Evolutionary Sciences: A New Vision for Analytical Psychology" (and grab a free PDF of its intro) here. You can also dive into the rest of his work on academia.edu and ResearchGate.

In this conversation, I sit down with Gary to explore the intersection of Jungian psychology and evolutionary neuroscience, examining how recent psychedelic research provides empirical validation for Jung's theories about the collective unconscious and archetypes. We discuss how modern neuroscience, particularly studies of primary and secondary consciousness systems, maps onto Jung's framework of ego consciousness versus deeper archetypal layers. The conversation covers the revolutionary potential of psychedelic research for studying previously inaccessible aspects of consciousness and Jung's prescient evolutionary approach to depth psychology.

⏳Timestamps
00:00 James's Intro
01:07 Opening and situating Gary's work
03:35 Affective Neuroscience and the Primary and Secondary layers of consciousness
09:00 Psychedelics, the numinous and evolutionary theory
22:17 Have we found the (neuroscientific) archetypes?
28:40 Psychedelics and the Collective Unconscious
34:53 Jordan Peterson's Jungian synthesis
36:57 Peterson gets chimpanzees and ancient humans wrong
46:01 Leaving Jung behind: Depth Psychology maturation as a science
58:50 Mapovers between Iain McGilchrist's work and Gary's
1:01:19 What Gary's working on now
1:07:32 Gary's guest recommendation: Erik Goodwyn

Jung describes Americans as having an “astonishingly feeble resistance to collective influences” which he found “positively terrifying”. His 1931 article on the uniquely American psychology is filled with novel insights into American psychology: its herdlike nature, the Heroic Ideal driving it as well as showcasing some of Jung’s more unsavoury Shadow elements — his racism which we’ll talk more about in the next episode.

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📚 Further Reading:

- Jung, C.G. 1931. The Complications of American Psychology

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🎼 Media Used:

1. Eliot Ness - Bladverk Band

2. Common Language - Venla

3. Dans Les Pensées - Franz Gordon

4. Here and Now - Bladverk Band

All music courtesy of www.epidemicsound.com

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⌛ Timestamps:

0:00 Introduction

0:50 It’s Complicated

06:52 The Heroic Ideal

09:25 The Source of American Psychology